Nov 282011


Touch not Chuck Smith's anointed...even if they touch little kids. Another Calvary Chapel Pastor arrest for molestation and child porn.

Chris Olague, Pastor of Refuge Southland Calvary Chapel who previously claimed Affiliation with Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa on his website via Affiliated Refuge Calvary Chapel Huntington Beach, gets arrested AGAIN for child molestation and possession of child pornography.

Huntington Beach Police Arrest Log details the specifics of child porn etc found on Calvary Chapel Pastor Chris Olague's computer, etc.

Interesting to note that though Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa lies publicly that, “I have no control, I want no control, I exercise no control” and privately that he has “no responsibility, never intervened, never exercised control or enforced Calvary Chapel name and logo rights owned by Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa”…we see that Chris Olague’s website has REMOVED their claims of Calvary Chapel Affiliation.



AFTER part 2:

Chris Olague claims Affiliation through Calvary Chapel Huntington Beach (who appears on the CCOF Website as an Official Calvary Chapel).

Paging Tim Kosnoff, paging Tim Kosnoff! Who influenced or enforced Chris Olague’s REMOVAL of his Calvary Chapel Affiliation claim?

…yet, Olague still claims some form of Affiliation via Calvary Chapel Huntington Beach (which appears on the CCOF Website as an Affiliated Official Calvary Chapel).

Roger Wing? Janet Carter? Agents of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa?

I bet there are some Attorneys who’d like answers to those questions….

 Posted by at 11:38 am
Nov 152011

24 year CCV Board Member submits testimony that Bob Grenier, fully Affiliated and Endorsed by Chuck Smith, Pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia confessed to Felony Child Abuse...but the Board covered it up, didn't report and much abuse happened before that admission and after that admission...including Molestation according to Bob's blood son, Paul Grenier.

“My name is XXXXXXXXXX, and I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia (CCV) in early 1981.  I write these notes with the greatest of trepidation, knowing that I am a “chief of sinners”, saved only by the grace and blood of our Lord Jesus, respecting the admonition to not touch God’s anointed, and somewhat fearing what I have come to know as the long reach and vindictive nature of my former Pastor, Bob Grenier.

When my family and I moved to Visalia, we were thrilled to learn that there was a Calvary Chapel, and immediately began attending and serving at CCV.  Over our years there, we profited immensely from the excellent expositional teaching of God’s Word, our beliefs and faith were challenged and strengthened, and we were afforded unbelievable opportunities to serve and minister.  To be completely fair, I must say that I have known Bob Grenier to be a compassionate, caring pastor, who has helped many people through personal crises, and helped lead many to know the Lord.  Unfortunately, I have also observed, heard and experienced him as a very proud, vindictive person who has used bullying, berating, slandering, and using his position to overpower those who disagreed with, challenge or questioned him.

In approximately 1985, I was asked to serve as an Elder & Board Member of CCV, a position I accepted with the utmost sense of respect, before the Lord.  I served as an Elder/Board Member from approximately 1985 until July of 2009, when I moved to XXXXXX, CA.  I would say that for the first 10 years, or so, of serving as an Elder/Board Member, although I observed and heard some things from Bob that I questioned, I extended grace, respect and understanding to my pastor.  During those early years, I was troubled by his seemingly quick and harsh policies toward other pastors, volunteers and staff at CCV, and thought his quickness in dismissing these servants was unfair.  Since Bob normally only told Board Members of such terminations, after the fact, it was impossible to change the action; however, I always felt his anger more dictated the action than serious offense.  Included were Dave Thomas, Mark Boesch, Patricia Boesch, Glick Callahan, Jeff Pierce, Tina Jenkins, Ron Alves, Walt Smith and others.

During my early years of serving as an Elder/Board Member, I also came to understand that Bob did not like, nor would he listen to, constructive criticism – again, I would often just let the issue pass, seeking to err on the side of grace and in respect for the position he held.  I also recall several issues with congregants, particularly an unfortunate event involving adultery in our church.  Although the matter was initially handled with integrity, and in a biblical manner, some were very troubled about Bob sharing the matter with others, and the resulting harm done.  I accompanied Bob to the home of one of the offenders, and was surprised to find Bob unapologetic, even pugnacious about having said too much about the persons involved.  This incident hurt many in our church and several people left the church as a result.

Bob would also forcefully crush any question regarding the finances or direction of the church.  I recall one incident in which an employee and congregant, began to question certain expenditures made by Bob.  Bob maligned these people and quickly dismissed their allegations, as lies and twisting of the truth.  Ultimately, these two left the church out of disappointment and due to being severely hurt by Bob.

After about 10 years, of serving as an Elder/Board Member, I definitely began noticing an increasing move away from a multitude of counsel (from within the Elder Board decision making process) to an increasingly Pastor only decision making process, which Bob expected to be approved by the Board.  I believe the Board was seldom, if ever involved in any decision regarding the governance, spiritual direction, or finances of CCV, until Bob had already made the decision.  Additionally, if he was questioned, he immediately squashed the issue, by saying it was his decision and that he had already taken action or initiated a change.  During this time, I also came to understand that Bob became very manipulative, often badgering and maneuvering through the Board to get his way.  Board Meetings became infrequent and some decisions were made by Bob calling each Board Member individually.  I must say that I believe all the Board Members extended a lot of grace and respect for the office, and I believe the Board was only there as a legally required body.  Bob later confirmed this belief, by telling me and another Board Member, that the Board was not like regular Boards, and that we were only there to approve his decisions.

Over the ensuing years, I continued to be troubled about Bob’s growing autocratic, defensive and pugnacious attitude toward church governance, finances, and spiritual matters, especially if anyone disagreed with or questioned him, including the Board.  I also began to be approached by several people who expressed deep hurt and disappointment about the way Bob treated them, and sometimes gave them an ultimatum to leave the church.  Whenever I would, out of a deep concern for the flock, ask Bob about someone who was hurt, I was told they were complainers and sinners, and was admonished about being a sounding board for dissenters.  I also began to notice an increasing separation and elitism, by Bob, from his congregants and his Board Members.

I believe Bob intentionally manipulated the Board on financial matters, such as his salary and overall benefit package, the purchase of a vehicle, by the church, for his exclusive use, the hiring and payment of family members on staff, and other “perks,” he enjoyed as Senior Pastor.  Although the Board approved all of these matters, it was frequently done via a phone conversation, where we did not really get to discuss the issues, and were often told other Board Members had already approved his request.  I can think of several of these issues, but I particularly remember that after he got angry with me for questioning the purchase of a vehicle, for his exclusive use, by the church, he angrily indicated that he had already made the deal, before getting Board approval.  Although, again, I, and I believe most other Board Members, were manipulated in making and approving decisions regarding CCV, it is clear to me, that Bob and our church administrator, Greg Dowds, made many of the decisions, without the benefit of the multitude of counsel, and have led to the tragic tale of CCV.

My greatest concern is with the way Bob treated those with whom he had a disagreement.  Although I know that there is no way to satisfy everyone, I believe a Christian and especially a pastor, should do all in his power to demonstrate the great love of Jesus, being quick to understand others’ weaknesses and gently guide them to truth.  I also would not be troubled if only a few people had grievances about Bob; however, there are dozens of people who have been and continue to be deeply wounded by his mean-spirited and vindictive side.  Although I could expound on many who have been hurt, I will list only two, who had legitimate disagreements with Bob, and unfortunately suffered unfairly in how he treated them.

The first is Tina Jenkins, who served faithfully at CCV for many years.  Tina became very concerned about how our Maintenance Supervisor, Ron Alves, was treated and ultimately terminated.  Tina talked to me about how Bob, threatened her with dismissal, stared her down, would not talk to her and ultimately made it so difficult for her, that she decided to leave CCV.  When I talked to Bob about Tina’s complaints, he told me that she was a trouble-maker, and enabler to her alcoholic husband, a liar, and someone who he no longer wanted working at CCV.  As I tried to explain that she had been deeply hurt by her pastor, he told me that I had become a sounding board for complainers and that in the future, I was to tell anyone who had an issue with him to call him.   When I further explained that these people feared him, his temper and what he had said about, and done to others, he again told me that they were complainers, malcontents and that they all had many problems.

The second person I will highlight is our former Youth Pastor Justin Brock.  Although I am not aware of all the reasons Justin was terminated, the important thing to note here is that had our Administrative Pastor, Kevin Meisner, take some extraordinary actions to get Justin to return his Pastors License.  In doing so, I learned that many unnecessary things were being said about Justin, and that he was deeply hurt by them.  When I questioned Kevin Meisner about the matter, I was summoned to Bob’s Office, and told that if I did not obey his rules and complained about anyone else, my “position at CCV, would change dramatically.”  Although I explained that my heart was really about people who had been deeply hurt by Bob, I was questioned, scolded and told that my opinion was not needed, wanted or asked for in these matters.

I must say that I truly regret not being stronger, more forceful and willing to defend those who have been so deeply hurt.  I also regret not being stronger in admonishing Bob; however, there is the interesting dynamic of trying to balance one’s respect for the office of Pastor, with erring on the side of grace and trying to keep peace within the Church.  After reading about, and talking to Alex about, the abuse he and his brothers suffered, I was heart-broken, and began to wonder how I did not know, and how many others must have been terribly broken by Bob.  One only need read the many accounts of abuse and bullying to know that my worst fears were true.

Regarding the allegations of abuse from his sons, I distinctly remember that Bob told the Board that he had gotten very angry at Geoff, and had hit him in the face.   Bob seemed very repentant, and even asked us if we thought he should step down from the ministry.  In questioning him, he said that it had only happened once, that Geoff deserved discipline, but that he had lost his temper and unfortunately struck Geoff.  Knowing what the boys are now alleging, I shudder to think that Bob was only using his sorrow as a way to say he had told his Board, and that he was told not to step down.  Bob also told me many horrible things about Geoff, Alex and Paul, to justify their estrangement – my response was to advise him to not be vindictive, to forgive, to ask for forgiveness and to seek reconciliation.  I believe Bob’s hard heart toward his sons, has led to great harm to the Church, the name of our Lord and to his personal ministry.

About six years ago, or so, I also served, with Bob, on the Board of Reaching Youth, a non-profit organization, funded by a wealthy member of CCV.  During that time, I observed Bob become a person who tried to dominate and control every action of Reaching Youth, a person who developed a grudge against the Director, and one who I believe used his power to force the Director’s termination.  I was told by the organization’s donor, that because Bob was unrelentless in trying to control the action and assets of the organization, it was decided to disband the Board and just let Bob have the money and run the programs.

As I look back over the many years of my relationship with Bob, I must say that I know he was a master manipulator, one who used his position to his advantage, and one who was able to instill fear into anyone who questioned or disagreed with him.  As a Board Member, I, and I believe most of the Board was not advised, consulted, or told about many financial, spiritual, organizational, or people issues in the church.  Believing the abuse allegations are true, it is apparent that Bob also hid his personal life.  As a result, I believe there was a lack of spiritual oversight, and that Bob was able to pretty much do whatever he wanted, without accountability.  This has to a litany of hurt people, questionable financial dealings, and a broken church.

As I close, I again find myself very sorrowful for not being more forceful, more diligent, more concerned, about things which bothered me, but for which I placed confidence, trust and respect in my former pastor, to do with integrity.  Although I have tried to be brief and concise, I most likely have information about things which may help you separate the truth from fallacy regarding CCV and Bob.  If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact me.”

Full disclosure: I was told this was for Chuck Smith’s eyes only and not to release this. I have protected the anonymity of the author to the general public, but many close to the situation will know who this man is.

Do the Ends justify the Means? Dunno. I do know that Bob Grenier, of Calvary Chapel Visalia, is a Liar and self-confessed Felony Child Abuser and that Paul Grenier accuses Bob Grenier, the Liar, of Molesting him.

I also know that Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia is a lying, unrepentant scoundrel who hurts many people…and I know that Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, Chuck Smith’s Attorney Janet Carter and Dave Rolph of Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills all heard this testimony…that Dave Rolph agreed it was a “smoking gun”…that Chuck Smith said that he “believes” us that Bob Grenier is lying about the massive amount of Child Abuse in our home over the many years.

I also know that Chuck Smith used my Mom as a Carrot and Quid Pro Quo for me to “play ball” and agree to lying, deception, cover-up and opacity…or face the Stone Wall and him not doing the right thing in these matters.

 Posted by at 12:22 pm
Nov 132011

“So Paul realized that the real me is spiritual. I dwell in a body; the body isn’t me. It’s the house in which I live. And here, Paul reduces it from the house to the tent. Now, whenever you think about a tent, you don’t think about a permanent place to live. There’s always something very transient and temporary about a tent. And we should look at our bodies as tents; they are not permanent dwelling places for my spirit. My spirit is dwelling presently in this tent while my house is being prepared.” Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa.

What do Chuck Smith, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Gnostics and Chuck Smith have in common?

Well, if you review Chuck Smith’s teachings on the Doctrine of Resurrection and Personhood/Anthropology…a lot.

The more I examine the Calvary Chapel situation and Chuck Smith in particular, the more apparent it is becoming to me “why” there is so much Abuse, Corruption, Adultery, Lying, Molestation in Camp Calvary Chapel…and “why” a so-called Prophet of God like Chuck Smith would shun any responsibility, not call it out, not deal with the Sin in his Camp per 1 Timothy 5:19-22.

Why? Because it very well could be that Chuck Smith is a False Prophet.

Let’s be honest here folks…the Calvary Chapel Movement was essentially spawned by Lonnie Frisbee, not Chuck Smith. It was Chuck’s embracing of Frisbee that drew the massive crowds of young hippies during the Jesus Movement…who then grew up and were Institutionalized by the opportunistic and shrewd Businessman, Chuck Smith.

Can a healthy Spirit-Led Movement of God be founded upon a man, Lonnie Frisbee, who was doing LSD and having homosexual relations with other men on Saturday…and then preaching the “real” Jesus Christ and Gospel on Sunday?

Lonnie Frisbee’s life and struggles with drugs and homosexuality is well documented. He died of AIDS as a result of his homosexual lifestyle. A very sad end I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Kathryn Kuhlman, another Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith partner that was instrumental in the genesis of the Movement is hailed as the major influence in Benny Hinn’s life. The hyper-Charismatic “faith healer”, Kuhlman, was very close to Smith and very much a part of the early days of CC.

Chuck Smith intervened with a Church Discipline Process with regards to David Hawking’s Adultery and sex scandal, circumventing another Church’s Scripturally motivated disciplinary process.

The list of scandals and cover-ups in Camp Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith’s Progeny, is astounding. This site documents the tip of the Ice Burg (but we’ll get to many others in time, and the list keeps growing as more people contact me with information).

A defense I’ve heard from some in the Online Discernment community, the supposed “Watch People” of “Sound Doctrine” and “Apostasy” etc. is, “Well, Chuck Smith is a gifted bible teacher”…and that excuses the Scandals and lack of following Scripture in dealing with sin in the Camp.

Well, what happens if Chuck Smith is preaching Heresy with regards to a Core Doctrine of the Faith? Can Chuck Smith be “wrong” and have a “wrong interpretation of Scripture” on a Foundational issue like the Resurrection? Personhood? (Who the “real me” is).

I submit that Chuck Smith cannot be wrong on the Doctrine of Resurrection and be trusted as a true Prophet of God. The issue of Resurrection is key to our Faith. If one is “wrong” on the Resurrection…then others (Gnostics, Emergents, RCC, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, you name it) can be “wrong”, too, and it shouldn’t rise to the level of calling out the different “interpretation”…if we can just ignore something as serious as a Heretical View of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the Saints.


In other words, if you can overlook Chuck Smith’s Heretical teaching on the Doctrine of Resurrection, then you have no place being in a position calling yourself a “Discernment Ministry” and you have no integrity and no standing in claiming to be a “Watch Person” or a having the “Gift of Discernment”. If you can’t rightly divide a Core Doctrine like the Resurrection and if you can’t call a Sacred Cow like Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to repentance on this Heresy, then you are a Respecter of Persons and you have no business putting yourself out there as someone to look to for that sort of “ministry”.

What is the Doctrine of Resurrection? Who is the “real me”? Is the “real me” “spirit only” as Chuck Smith says above? Why does a “correct” view of these issues matter? What are the implications of being wrong? Who argues, essentially, the same and/or similar views as Chuck Smith?

Jesus’ Resurrection was physical

 by Matt Slick

The resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental and essential doctrine of Christianity.  The resurrection of Jesus is so important that without it Christianity is false.  Paul said in 1 Cor. 15:14, “and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.”  Three verses later, in verse 17, he again says, “and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.”  Though there are many subjects with which Christians may disagree and still be considered Christian, this is not one of them.  To deny the resurrection of Jesus is to deny the heart of Christianity itself.

However, the problem in the resurrection isn’t so much in agreeing that Jesus rose, but in how He rose.  Unfortunately, cults attack the resurrection of Christ and reinterpret it in different ways, thereby denying His physical resurrection.  We must ask if Jesus rose from the dead in the very same body He died in or did He rise in a spirit body that was not flesh and bones?  The answer to this question is vital.  It separates true Christians from false systems.  Therefore, here is the correct doctrine of Christ’s resurrection; I consider it so important, that it must be set off by itself as a statement of truth:

Jesus rose from the dead in the very same physical body in which He died. This resurrected body was a glorified, spiritual body.

The above statement is the correct doctrine of scripture.  As such, it stands against the Jehovah’s Witness and the Shepherd’s Chapel groups that state that Jesus did not rise bodily, but spiritually.  Neither group seeks to deny the obvious biblical declaration of Christ’s resurrection, but they change the meaning of the resurrection so that it really didn’t happen.  Did Jesus rise from the dead in the same physical body in which He died?  Yes!

After the resurrection Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43).  He showed people His hands and feet, with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39John 20:27), and people even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9).  As the reports of Jesus’ resurrection were spreading, Thomas, who was doubting the resurrection of Christ, said, “Unless I shall see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe,” (John 20:25).  Later, Jesus appeared to Thomas and said to him, “Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing,” (John 20:27).

If Jesus’ body had not risen, then He would not have feet and hands with the same holes of the nails of the crucifixion.  Consider the following verses as further proof that His very body was raised:

  • “When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.”  20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord,” (John 20:19-20).
  • “And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?  39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have,” (Luke 24:38-39).

It is obvious that Jesus was raised in the same body in which He died, with the same holes in His hands and feet.  We see that Jesus proclaimed He had flesh and bones.  Does a “spirit body” consist of flesh and bones?  Not at all.

I have heard it said that Jesus physical body died but His spiritual body was raised.  If this is so, then does the spiritual body consist of flesh and bones as well as the physical one?  It makes no sense.  Also, if Jesus did not rise physically, then what happened to His body?  Was it dissolved? Was it moved somewhere?  There is no biblical account of what happened to Jesus’ body other than that it was raised from the dead.  Therefore, His body was raised from the dead.

John 2:19-21

“Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”  20 The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”  21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body,” (John 2:19-21).

The phrase “I will raise” is translated from the single Greek word “egeiro.”  “Egeiro” is the future, active, indicative, 1st-person singular.  The active voice in Greek designates who is performing the action.  In this case, since it is first person, singular (“I”), Jesus is saying that He Himself would perform the action of the resurrection.  This is precisely what the Greek says.

However, some still deny that Jesus rose from the dead physically — even when examining John 2:19-21.  We can clearly see that Jesus prophesied that He would raise up the temple of His body as is clarified in verse 21 by John the apostle who states that Jesus was speaking of “the temple of his body.”  Therefore, this should be conclusive proof that Jesus rose from the dead in the same body in which He died. Clearly, John 2:19-21 shows us that Jesus predicted He would raise His very body — and He did so.  Is this enough to put this issue to rest?  You’d think so, but resistance persists.

1 Cor. 15:353942-44

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?. . . 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. . . 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Verse 44 above is used in an attempt to establish the idea that Jesus did not rise physically, but spiritually.  Of course, I’ve already established above that Jesus was raised in the same body He died in, with the same holes in His hands and feet.  We also saw that Jesus proclaimed He had flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).  Again, does a “spirit body” consist of flesh and bones?  The scripture no where declares such a thing.

Paul is not stating that there are two separate bodies to each person, the physical and the spiritual and that after the physical one dies, the second and different spirit body takes over.  Rather, when referencing the same body, he states, “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body,” (v. 44).  The “it” is referring to the same body in both clauses, not separate and different ones.  This same body becomes a resurrected body — which is the spiritual body to which He is referring. In other words, the spiritual body is the very same body he previously had, though it had been changed into a spiritual one.

“For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.  54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory,” (1 Cor. 15:53-54).

Our perishable and mortal bodies put on the imperishable and immortal aspects of the spiritual body which is the physically resurrected and changed body of the believer.  Jesus was simply the first fruits of this resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20).  Therefore, we can see that our future resurrected bodies will be spiritual bodies.  But, those spiritual bodies are in fact physical, the same bodies we have now, only glorified.  Otherwise, there is no resurrection.

Here is the Jehovah’s Witness Position on the Resurrection:

The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Resurrection of Jesus

The Watchtower organization says that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in (You Can Live Forever on Paradise Earth, p. 143-44). Instead, it says that He rose as a spirit creature and that the material body of Jesus was taken away by God the Father. Therefore, they deny the physical resurrection of Christ. Is this important? Most definitely!

1 Cor. 15:14 says, “If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.” In other words, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a waste of time and we are then still dead in our sins. It is obvious that the doctrine of the resurrection of Jesus is a vital and essential element of Christianity. But what of the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are they accurate in their assessment of Jesus’ resurrection in denying the bodily resurrection but affirming a “spiritual” resurrection? The answer is a definite, “No.”

It is obvious from Jesus’ own words in John 2:19-21 that He would raise Himself from the dead:

“Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21But He was speaking of the temple of His body.”

John 2:19-21 is a clear prophecy of Christ. Note that He said He would raise up “this temple.” John the apostle clarifies for us that “this temple” was actually Jesus physical body. Therefore, Jesus’ physical body was raised from the dead. Very simple. However, the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe Jesus’ own words here.

In order to help you see the error of the Watchtower position and aid you in refuting their arguments, I’ve compiled the following list of arguments used by the Jehovah’s Witnesses to support their position.

1. They use 1 Pet. 3:18 where it says that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” as an attempt to show that Jesus was not raised physically, but as a kind of spirit creature. 
Their use of the scripture to support their position is incorrect because this verse does not say that He was raised a spirit creature. It says that He was “made alive in the spirit.” What does that mean? Quite simply, it means that Jesus was raised in an imperishable body. This is what 1 Cor. 15:35-45 says when it refers to the body as being sown perishable, but raised imperishable; sown in dishonor and raised in glory; sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body, etc.  Jesus was the “Last Adam”, a life giving spirit. Paul is typifying the resurrection body. In this passage Paul is talking about the resurrection of all people. All Christians will be raised in physical bodies. It is said the same of Jesus.

2. The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:44-50). Therefore, Jesus’ physical body could not be raised lest it contradict this verse.
What the Jehovah’s Witnesses miss is that after His resurrection Jesus said, “Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have” (Luke 24:39). You must note that Jesus did not say, “flesh and blood.” He said, “flesh and bones.” This is because Jesus’ blood was shed on the cross. The life is in the blood and it is the blood that cleanses from sin: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). See also, Gen. 9:4Deut. 12:23; and John 6:53-54. Jesus was pointing out that He was different. He had a body, but not a body of flesh and blood. It was flesh and bones.

3. The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jesus manifested different physical forms in order to convince the disciples that He had been raised.
This is faulty for several reasons. First, it would mean that Jesus was tricking His disciples into believing that His body had been raised when it hadn’t. Second, it disregards the clear teaching of Jesus Himself who said His very body would be raised. He said in John 2:19-21, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21But He was speaking of the temple of His body.” Jesus said that His body would be raised. The Jehovah’s Witnesses clearly deny Jesus’ very words. Fourth, 1 Tim. 2:5 says, “For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” Jesus is said to be a man — in present tense language. If He was not raised physically, then how could he be a man? He could not be.

4. Jesus manifested different bodies after the resurrection, the same way the angels took human form in the Old Testament in order to show the disciples that He had been raised.
Again, this contradicts what Jesus said in John 2:19-21 that He would raise Himself from the dead. . . physically. Also, Jesus is not an angel contrary to what the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. Jesus was God in flesh (John 8:58John 1:1,14Col. 2:9Phil. 2:5-8).

The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the same body He died in. This is a dangerous doctrine that contradicts the Bible and condemns those who believe it to eternal destruction because it is denying His physical resurrection which is the proof that He conquered death. The Jehovah’s Witnesses need to keep Jesus’ own words in mind when He said, “Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up” (John 2:19). Since He was speaking of His body says John in verse 21, then it must be true; Jesus rose from the dead in the same body He died in. Also, at His ascension people watched Him rise to be with the Father. They saw His body ascend. That is why it can be said that Jesus, the man, is the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). It isn’t an angel or a spirit creature that is the mediator. It is Jesus the man.

The Gnostic Position Explained and Refuted as Heresy

by Let Us Reason Ministries

History has a funny way of repeating itself. As Christianity first began to grow, spiritual competition began to surface. As Paul, and the other apostles labored to build up the house of God which was to be the pillar and ground of the truth, the enemy also labored and bore the first competitor to the Church, Gnosticism. This was the first heresy that the church had to contend against.

The old saying what crawls in one generation walks in the next. What we have emerging and synthesizing within the Church today is no different than before. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. Its unfortunate that little attention is given to the early Church after the apostles. It was at this time that the challenges came into the body that prompted the church to explain its faith. As it was so it is again, Gnosticism has arisen in various ways to challenge us and the revealed Word of God and it is still alive and well in the year 2002. The person of Christ, the true Christian Gospel is again finding itself being distorted in the hands of those who think they have a greater revelation.

The original Gnosticism that predated Christianity was a philosophical system built on Greek philosophy that taught matter was evil and the Spirit was good. According to the Gnostic world- view, the created order was evil, inferior, and opposed to the good. God created the first order, but each successive order was the work of anti-gods, archons, or a demiurges (a subordinate deity). These spheres are ruled by archons who guard their spheres by barring the souls who are seeking to ascend from the realm of darkness and captivity which is below, to the realm of light which is above. This was done by spiritual knowledge or experience, we identify it today as enlightenment.

They taught a docetism which promoted a clear separation between the material and spiritual world. Some of the Christian Gnostics said since matter was evil God could not really incarnate in a human body He was not subject to any human experiences or feelings. The Christian form of docetism taught that Jesus body was not a real body, was really a (spirit) phantom. he only appeared in human form and only appeared to suffer, it was an illusion. Thus Jesus could be a pure spiritual being in the midst of an evil world and not be contaminated by it. Jesus only appeared to have flesh which denied his genuine humanity. They believed if Christ suffered he could not be divine, (this was an integral part of Gnosticism) because God cannot suffer. Instead the Bible says that God descended into sinful matter and took on human flesh, it was real, this they could not believe. You can see this error in the cults today when they refuse to believe the Bible teaches God became a man. And that the resurrection was a spirit body and not the flesh. The Bible teaches that the body that emerged from the tomb Sunday morning was the exact same body that went into the tomb except it was glorified.

The Bible term en sarki in flesh (2 Tim. 3:16) and became flesh (Jn 1:14), means Jesus is of a complete human nature, 100% humanity. 1 Jn.1:1-4. 1 John 4:2 says, “that every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.” John is writing after the resurrection, he uses the perfect tense in the Greek language that denotes a past action with continuing results into the future. Jesus came in the flesh, He rose in the flesh and is still in the flesh.” Verse 3 then states, “that every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.” Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh are of the anti-Christ spirit. This is one of the ways to discern a false teacher from a true one. But there are many other tests needed to be applied.

If Jesus Christ is not presently in a flesh body in heaven then the integrity of His incarnation has been deprived. Then one would have to concede that he is no longer incarnateand he has no flesh today, we would then have no true resurrection, no mediator or high priest. This would mean that 1 Tim. 2:5 is not true “there is one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus.”.

When you have someone deny this doctrine indirectly such as Creflo Dollar or Kenneth Copeland who says “Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh” (Following the faith of Abraham #01-3001 Audio side 1). Or the Mormon Brigham Young who says “Adam is our father and God.” (Brigham Young, Deseret News,6/16/1873).  It is denying Christ was the only God in the flesh, substituting another creature. This is the denial that John addresses “ every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God” for it is an exclusive statement to mean Him alone as the only human who is also God. (Christ having two natures 100% God and 100% man ). You don’t have to deny it directly, but can take away from this one time incarnation by adding another.

Then there were others who denied he rose physically like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do today, or the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research. They claim he rose as a spirit no longer needing his body.

Biblically He as God came in the flesh and rose in the same flesh, yet it was transformed to an eternal flesh body, not a spirit one leaving the flesh behind.

The early church was adamant on this. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) said plainly: “The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which dies.” As for those who “maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual, and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise.” Justin even insisted that Christ’s ascension shows that it is possible “for flesh to ascend into heaven.” This means that this would include the rapture of which many cults deny. Tertullian declared the resurrection of the flesh to be the church’s “rule of faith,” saying it “was taught by Christ” and only denied by heretics. In Against all Heresies Chapt.4. Cerdo, Marcion, Lugan, Apelles It states” A resurrection of the soul merely does he approve, denying that of the body.” “He reinstated in heaven His spirit only. This man denies the resurrection of the flesh.”

What does Chuck Smith say about who “we” are as “the Real Me”? What is Chuck Smith’s teaching regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection?

Chuck Smith teaches that (in his own words, see video) that “the REAL ME is spirit”…classic Gnosticism.

Chuck Smith goes on to teach a Doctrine of Resurrection of both Jesus Christ and the Saints where “your spirit LEAVES your body” and “goes into a NEW body” after you die. Classic Jehovah’s Witness Theology.

He goes on to explain that Jesus Christ had a “similar but different” body when He Resurrected. It is not the “same” Physical Body that has been Glorified, but rather the “spirit” of Jesus (and our “spirit” who is the “real me”) LEAVES our “old bodies” and then migrates to a “new body”…some Quasi-Spirit Body. This is Heresy.

I call on Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to repent of their Heresy regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection. They cannot be “wrong” on this Core Foundational Issue as the Gnostics and Jehovah’s Witnesses are. If we compromise the integrity of this Foundational Truth…then we are on a Slippery Slope and we are preaching a “different Jesus”.

There is no “old body” in the Tomb that Jesus arose from. Jesus Christ has “one” Literal Physical Earthly Body that was Glorified. We have one Literal Physical Earthly Body that is “the real us” that is Glorified. Jesus’s “spirit” and our “spirit” does not “leave our old body” and migrate to some “new body” that is a Quasi-Spirit Body. That is JW and Gnostic and off the Reservation of Christian orthodoxy.

 Posted by at 11:12 pm
Nov 102011

I’ve waited to comment on the Sandusky, Penn State, Joe Paterno cover-up and tragedy. I had to calm down enough not to fill the page with expletives (sorry, still attached to the flesh over here).

Another 20 plus Children (or Children when they were victims) have come forward with allegations of being molested by Coach Sandusky of Penn State. We all have heard, by now, the details of Sandusky’s depraved rape of the 10-year-old boy in the showers at Penn State…and the subsequent “not my problem” and cover-up, protection, etc that the Good ‘Ol Boys Club (the Penn State Football Program and Athletic Department etc) gave to the pedophile and Child Raper “Coach” Sandusky.

Say it ain't so JoePa! "My BFF is a Child Raper!" Paterno got fired, other heads are rolling. The Crime is sickening, the cover-up and covering it over is inexcusable. How does the Church, the supposed Beacon of Light in the World, handle similar situations? Worse than the World they rail against.

Hey, don’t want to tarnish the Brand! Don’t want to hurt ticket sales and all that revenue coming into Penn State through the Golden Goose, the Penn State Football Program!

Ridiculous. So wrong, on so many levels…but this is where our Society is at these days.

Sandusky is very lucky it wasn’t “me” who walked in on him raping a child. I would have beat the man senseless and probably served time. I would have removed his privy member and shoved it in his mouth and let him lay there bleeding and taken the child to the hospital straight away.

But, “we” as a Society don’t have a Black and White Standard any longer. We simply don’t care. We make excuses, we cover stuff up, we don’t want to disrupt the Status Quo…especially when there is a Brand, Money, Power and Position involved.

How would the Church handle similar matters? They’d CERTAINLY act differently…right?


There is a lawsuit against Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa…this moment. The suit alleges that Anthony Iglesias, a Calvary Chapel volunteer/employ molested kids through his CC connections with them.

The suit also alleges that Raul Ries, Dale Goddard, Bob Davis and others in Calvary Chapel Leadership “knew” about Iglesias’s problems with sexual encounters with children, yet they allowed him to be with kids and he continued to molest more and more.

Chuck Smith says, “Not my problem!”

Calvary Chapel says, “Not our problem!”

According to sources a “CC Pastor” walked in on John Flores Statutory Raping a teenage girl ON the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Campus. The “CC Pastor” didn’t report the crime to authorities. This after Jeff Smith hired and fired Flores after knowing he had issues, only to have Brian Broderesen rehire Flores, who eventually raped the girl. Flores ended up convicted of the felony and served time after the Parents and Child wouldn’t play ball with CC and cover it up.

Paul Grenier, Calvary Chapel Pastor in good standing Bob Grenier’s blood son, alleges Bob molested him. I have reported this to Chuck Smith, Roger Wing, David Rosales, CCOF, CCCM, Chuck’s Attorney etc etc.

No action. Bob Grenier is still fully “Affiliated” and endorsed and supported by Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and CC at this very moment…and over 1,500 other “Affiliated” Calvary Chapel Senior Pastors are “in Fellowship” with Bob Grenier this moment.

Penn State did the right thing….FINALLY. Heads are rolling, reforms are coming.

What’s Calvary Chapel, supposedly “God’s Church” doing? Lying, Stone Walling, deflecting, dodging, making excuses, etc etc.

Nice example Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. Keep waving that Brand and Team Flag in one hand and denying any Spiritual or legal responsibility or otherwise in the other hand. You guys are truly a “Brood of vipers!”

May you reap what you continue to sow.

Here’s the take-away: Brand, Money, Power and Position Corrupt. Without making examples, holding a Standard, drawing firm lines of right and wrong…men will hurt children, other men will cover it up and enable it to continue.

Report, report, report. Deal with the Bad Guys, even if it hurts your beloved Brand or costs you some of your beloved money or position etc.

Do the right thing, when it counts most. Our Children are the “least of these”.

 Posted by at 8:33 am
Nov 042011

Watch the video above. It’s difficult, but watch it anyway.

I watched it once. I cried profusely. It brought back terrible memories…it also made me righteously angry. The man is a sadistic bully whose actions are inspired by the flesh and the devil. There is nothing “Godly” about this Abuse masked as “spare the rod and spoil the child” and “children submit to your parents”…but this is the rationale offered up by Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel and it is not “Godly Discipline”. It is wicked and should never be counted among professing believers, ESPECIALLY Leadership in the Church.

The words, the actions, the berating, the hatred, the lack of self-control, the sadistic meanness…all terrible, all an illustration of what home-life was like in the Pastor Bob Grenier CCV–fully endorsed by Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to this very moment–home.

As terrible as this video is (and my heart goes out to the daughter, I KNOW what it’s like) this is mild compared to Bob Grenier’s berating, cursing, demeaning, intimidation and beatings (which Bob Grenier and his Camp and Calvary Chapel call “over-spanking”).

"Godly Discipline"? "Over-spanking"? Or, Child Abuse? Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Visalia's Board and Elders call this sort of thing acceptable, by their continuing endorsement of Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor in good standing Bob Grenier. This was mild compared to what happened in our home, but no problem, it's "In the past"..."Nothing can be done"...."Leave it to the Lord"...."It's Scriptural corporal punishment", etc etc. Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel is condoning and facilitating Child Abuse, so is the Visalia Police Department. Bob Grenier is a Calvary Chapel Pastor and VPD Police Chaplain in Good Standing, this moment.

Bob Grenier would beat us with a custom-made wooden paddle (large) that was at least a 1/4 inch thick. He took pride in that paddle. Bragged about it. He broke them and would have another one made, etc.

He’d lose his temper, which he was well known for (he spoke of his “temper problem” from his Calvary Chapel Pulpit many times, joking about it). He’d swing at us wildly, looking demon possessed. He’d hit us many many times, back of legs, buttocks, lower back, arms and hands when we reached back in pain and terror to defend ourselves. We had deep purple bruises, we bled, it was very painful.

Bob’s beatings lasted much longer than this video, were more terrifying (he would be screaming and yelling and with a tone and look in his eyes like he was going to kill us, he totally went berserk often).

Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia and Visalia Police Department Police Chaplain would also hit us in the face with an open hand as hard as he could, he punched my brother Geoff with a closed fist hurting the kid bad (and a 24-year CCV Board member is on record now reporting that Bob Grenier admitted this Child Abuse to his Board in 1988, but the Calvary Chapel Board did what is preached by Chuck Smith and others in Calvary Chapel…they protected the CC Senior Pastor and didn’t report).

Bob Grenier put my brother in small coat closet, closing the door, leaving him confined in that very small space as a punishment under threat of violence if he got out.

Bob Grenier kicked us, pushed us, shoved us into walls, grabbed us violently and pinched our necks hard (like Spock on Star Trek). He intimidated us, threatened us, followed through on his threats and terrorized us for many many years.

He beat my brother Geoff from head to toe with the branch of a Mulberry tree and so much more. It would take me pages and pages to document all the abuse that Bob did to us. My brother Geoff and I tried to put a number on the times Bob Grenier hit us in the face growing up. We couldn’t, the number was too large. It was a way of life. It was our “normal”.

Listen to the tone, the authoritarianism, the hatred, the demeaning, the sadistic demonic spirit in the words and voice of this “Judge”. That’s Bob Grenier.

Judge William Adams is suspended and under investigation for this video. Unfortunately, like in our case, the Statute of Limitations have probably run out for an arrest. Doesn’t mean Judge Williams or Bob Grenier is innocent and shouldn’t be dealt with.

I call on, AGAIN, the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board and Elders including Brent Calvin of College of the Sequoias, Jeff Fly of Turning Point, Greg Dowds and the others to remove Bob Grenier from his Position of Trust as a Calvary Chapel Pastor and look into these allegations and the testimony of the 24-year CCV Board member who reported Bob’s admission to felony Child Abuse in 1988. Some of the current CCV Board covered up the Abuse back then and are guilty of negligence then and now.

I call on, AGAIN, Chuck Smith, Brian Brodersen, Roger Wing of Calvary Chapel and CCOF and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa to make a public statement clearly articulating that Calvary Chapel does not condone the Physical and Sexual Abuse of Children and that it won’t tolerate its FELLOW Calvary Chapel Pastors abusing and molesting children.

The list of abusive and molesting Calvary Chapel Pastors and Volunteer/Employs is growing very long: Bob Grenier, Dino Cardelli, Chris Olag, John Flores, Anthony Iglesias and others.

Not a public word from Chuck Smith or other “In Fellowship” Calvary Chapel Pastors. Much rebuke publicly about reformed theology from guys like George Bryson, Chuck Smith (at a recent CC Senior Pastor’s Conference etc.). Much public rebuke of other ministries and churches that compete with Calvary Chapel for market-share.

Not a peep about Child Abuse, Molestation, Adultery, Corruption and much sin in the Calvary Chapel Camp.

 Posted by at 12:10 pm