Feb 282012
 

"Accountability"....a dirty word in Calvary Chapel.

Pastor Michael Newnham over at Phoenixpreacher.net did a podcast recently with Jason Stellman, a former Calvary Chapel missionary who is now the pastor and teaching elder at Exile Presbyterian church in Washington state.

Calvary Chapel has a big problem…and some justice, I believe, is on the coming horizon.

How does sin, abuse and corruption blow up to the level that requires what’s coming? Well, a lack of addressing abuses, corruption, sin in the Camp, etc in a just and righteous way, is one big reason. When you let sin fester, it grows…and when it grows and is continually ignored by Leadership (like Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Boards, etc) it gets really big and the consequences to that sin get really bad.

Here’s how the Presby’s do their thing…seems to be an option worth considering (click on the link below to access the podcast):

http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=11303

 

 Posted by at 11:49 am
Feb 272012
 

The Voices aren't speaking in Latin, thank God...but they are saying this stuff over yonder--->

Copying my buddy Michael Newnham at PhoenixPreacher.net. I like the format and I’m sure he copied it from someone else, nothing new under the sun as they say.

What are the Voices saying today? Not that anyone cares, but that’s not a factor for most who post their thoughts (not directed at Michael, but at humanity in general).

1. Michael attended the Justice Conference up in Portland, Oregon. Here’s the link: http://thejusticeconference.com/ Social Justice is a very Political Hot Button issue. Here’s my take: The Justice Conference in Portland proves the Church can and should be in the business of helping the poor and needy…and our Federal Government shouldn’t. The ills of the World’s poor and needy and America’s poor and needy and the Righteous Passion of a Justice Conference and venues like it are more of an Indictment on the Rich Christian Church’s lack of responsibility in making the poor and needy a priority than it is an indictment on the American Government. Social Justice is a Moral Issue. Our Rich American Church should stop paying pikers like Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia over $100,000 per year in salary and benefits and building man kingdoms (Raul Ries, Mike MacIntosh, Chuck Smith, David Rosales etc) that cost millions in buildings, overhead, advertising, travel, perks, big salaries, big radio stations, omega watches, tommy bahama shirts, cafes, etc etc.

The Church is the reason we have a problem in America with Social Justice, not our Government. Our Government should not be in the business of Legislating Morality via taxation and spending us into oblivion. Social Justice should be the job of the private sector, with the Government providing some basic Safety Nets. Right now, we have a Lazy and Gluttonous Church paying lip-service to the Social Justice issue while relying on the Government and US Middle Class Taxpayer to do what they should be doing. Our Government is in catastrophic debt and Socializing more and more by the minute. We are bailing out our Poor and our Rich. We have the worst combination for the Middle Class: Socialism for the Poor and Corporate Socialism for the Rich…and a Lazy and Greedy Church that cares more about spending Millions on their buildings, conferences, travel and benefits for their Leadership than they do about obeying Jesus’s instruction of what “true Religion” really looks like. A pox on all of them (and myself).

2. Don Stewart co-host of “Pastor’s Perspective” with the high holy profit Chuck Smith has made the blogosphere here: http://rrrapostasyalert.blogspot.com/2012/01/january-20-2012-show-my-perspective-on.html Jackie Alnor did a very good job with this, IMO. Truth seasoned with grace (much better than I’d handle it). The truth about Don Stewart is much worse than she reports. I know the gory details of his situation, but there’s only so much time in the day. I’ve asked Don Stewart very specific questions to verify what other sources have told me. He won’t respond, which is typical of Calvary Chapel Leadership, they are a law unto themselves and not accountable to anyone other than Chuck Smith’s unScriptural “Loyalty” Construct…though Chuck lies and says he’s not responsible and doesn’t have any control over anyone.

3. The biggest National Security Crisis America faces today? Iran? Terrorism? Mexican Drug Cartels? North Korea? Nope. The US Dollar losing its World Reserve Currency status. The Powers that Be know the implications of this happening. It’s really bad news for the Average American as the US Dollar would be revalued overnight and the cost of “stuff” like gas, and stuff made out of petroleum or shipped/transported, etc will go up sharply. My only Conclusion of why we’re still racing toward that cliff, knowing that the Powers that Be understand Macro-Economics, is that there is a Group within the United States who wants this to happen. Hillary Clinton is posturing for World Bank head: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/09/clinton-world-bank-president_n_874484.html China is calling for the US Dollar to be replaced as the World Reserve Currency: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7851925a-17a2-11de-8c9d-0000779fd2ac.html#axzz1nbkqzV6K Russia calls for the US Dollar to be replaced as the World Reserve Currency: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/world/europe/03medvedev.html UN calls for replacing the US Dollar as World Reserve Currency: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/29/us-dollar-reserves-un-idUSTRE65S40620100629 The Vatican (Roman Catholic Church) calls for replacing the US Dollar as World Reserve Currency and for a “World Central Bank” System: http://www.cnbc.com/id/45013499/Vatican_Calls_for_Central_World_Bank_to_Be_Set_Up

Many will cry, “Conspiracy Theory! Conspiracy Theory!” LOL. It’s right in your face, you’d have to be an American Idol watching vacuous idiot to not observe what’s going on around you…at rapid speed. Unfortunately, the US is full of American Idol watching vacuous idiots. It’s a pandemic.

4. If Jeremy Lin were a College Football Player, I’d care. The NBA is dead to me, as is Major League Baseball. I could care less. They’ve lost a fan for life. I’ll stick to College Football, Minor League Baseball and College Basketball. Once they go Pro, it’s pretty much ruined. Full disclosure, I can’t shake the NFL, dang Fantasy Football!

5. I have come to the realization that I’m still a jerk. However, I can’t resolve this issue: When I’m bluntly honest about my take on something is it that I care too much to lie and sugar-coat it, or do I not care enough? “Wounds of a friend” and “rebuke them” on one hand vs. being nice and “clanging cymbal” on the other hand. Probably a mix of both, and of course, I’m (still) an incurable jerk, no matter how much lipstick I try to put on the pig. I couldn’t hold Martin Luther’s water, and there’s much I detest about the historical figure’s words (especially “On the Jews and Their Lies”…if you want to read something truly offensive from a Stalwart of the Protestant Christian Faith and the man who single-handedly ushered in Protestantism…read it, you’ll cringe)…but I can relate to his style. Maybe he was just disgusted with pretty much everything around him.

6. Calvary Chapel still sucks. Its Pastors are partly to blame, “Not my responsibility! I’m not like the other guys!” etc etc. If you’re a Democrat and you wave the Team Flag and you voted for Obama and you support the Party with your time and money…or conversely if you are a Republican and you wave the Team Flag and you voted for W. Bush and you support the Party with your time and money…you have some responsibility for what the Leaders do, for the laws that are passed, for the policies and actions and bad stuff that others do in your Tent, etc.

7. I watched Mike MacIntosh and Pancho Juarez give nice speeches at Bob Grenier’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Men’s Conference (it was billed as “The Central Valley Men’s Conference” but make no mistake, it was in Bob’s man kingdom at his pulpit and was a big ‘ol rally for Bob G.). Mike and Pancho both said some good stuff…unfortunately, the words are completely hollow. It’s like Bernie Madoff giving a nice speech about ethics in Finance. The information was good and correct…however, their buddy who introduced them to the pulpit is the direct opposite of what they were selling…and they could care less. It’s not about truth and righteousness, its about building man kingdoms and supporting those who are “loyal” to their Crew and their Brand. Raul Ries is as bad or worse than Bob Grenier. If an Investigator with authority ever digs in, there will be jail time, I’m convinced of that.

1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

My prayer is that these crooks and cons will be held accountable for the money-changers and liars they are.

8. On a positive note: Somehow God is in control of all of it (either Deterministically or dependent on our “choices” etc). The end result of Prophecy “has” to happen, right? No avoiding it no matter what our “choices” are, correct? If the “Anti-Christ” is a literal physical man…he could theoretically “choose” to repent, right? Then the prophecy would eventually be fulfilled by another man, but what if he “chose” to repent and so on and so forth? In other words, do we have the ability to delay something that is written in Revelation as inevitable and Deterministic? Ever think about that? I do, I guess I’m really weird :smile:

There’s a lot more rattling around in my dome, but I’ll quit while I’m ahead.

 Posted by at 1:47 pm
Feb 242012
 

Former Calvary Chapel Visalia employee alleges theft, fraud and tax violations by Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia.

Bob Grenier pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia’s child abuse (confirmed in testimony by 24 year CCV Board member Glen C.) and allegations by Paul Grenier of molestation are well documented on this site. Following is a first person testimony from a former Calvary Chapel Visalia employee that alleges theft, fraud and tax violations.

“…when Bob goes on trips he takes cash from the church. What is suppose to happen is Bob or Gayle turn in receipts and the change after a trip.. What happens is they take the cash and there is no questions asked about how it is spent. This could be from $50 to $400. Also the Cafe is not paying taxes on food sales. As a food service it is suppose to collect and pay taxes they do neither. They also use the bookstores resale license to get their food orders and supplies.”

Paul Grenier testifies that he was the direct beneficiary of “expensive sunglasses” and many other items that were paid for out of the Calvary Chapel cash envelope. Paul says that spending the petty cash on personal items was a regular practice of Bob Grenier’s when they were on what was billed as Church business to Southern California and elsewhere.

Two other former Calvary Chapel employees, in addition to Paul’s testimony and the quoted testimony above, recount similar testimony of Bob Grenier playing fast and loose with the Church cash.

“The cafe really works at a loss. Salaries paid for cafe work come out of the general fund. Gayle gets paid, Susie gets paid and I think Kathie Smee, and there are a couple of others that get paid. Bob usually flies business but always trys to upgrade.”

“Salaries take over 50%. Besides salary, he gets book allowance, housing allowance and he gets an extra months pay for vacation. And then his car is paid for by the church. Insurance, gas, cleaning is all paid for by the church. There is i think about $1800 a month for pension. Missions there are about 20 different missionaries who get support from the church. Helping people part doesn’t happen often at all. I’m not good at percentages. The church grounds are now done in house so it’s just Josh and his helpers salaries. Some of these may have changed in the last eight months.”

The above information is corroborated by two other former employees (in part or in whole).

“One other thing I thought of. Susie supposedly gets paid for working in the Cafe, but it is really suppose to be salary for Greg. But they can’t pay Greg or it will mess up his disability.”

This is possibly the most serious allegation…it appears to be Disability Fraud. The information is corroborated by two additional former Calvary Chapel Visalia employees and is reported to be known by several others connected to Calvary Chapel Visalia.

“I have a few things to clear about a post of Paul’s. He was right about the credit card, Bob and Gayle have full use of the card with no approval needed. The checks always have needed two signatures on them. Also the church pays for Gayle’s and Greg’s cell phones. Greg also upgrades and buys supplies with no approval needed.”

These matters were reported to Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and Roger Wing of CCOF. It is reported by sources that Roger Wing of CCOF did an audit (yet Chuck Smith claims Calvary Chapels are all 100% independent…if so, what is CCOF and Roger Wing doing performing an audit after receiving information of financial abuse allegations?).

What were the results of the audit? Was there any evidence that supports the Disability Fraud allegations? Any findings of theft and tax violations?

Has there been an attempt to cover up any of the issues divulged in the whistleblower’s testimony?

Calvary Chapel Visalia is a 501c3 and an Institution of Trust. Bob Grenier is also a Police Chaplain at the Visalia Police Department and the Tulare County Sheriff’s Department. Current Calvary Chapel Visalia Board Members include Brent Calvin, Dean of College of the Sequoias and Jeff Fly of Turning Point.

What do the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board Members know about these allegations? Raul Ries of Calvary Chapel Golden Springs, David Rosales of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley and Gary Ruff of Calvary Chapel Sun Valley were also Calvary Chapel Visalia Board Members during the time of these allegations. If the allegations are true, did they knowingly participate in any fraud or tax violation? Do these Pastors and Directors of separate 501c3 Corporations practice similar things?

 Posted by at 12:07 am
Feb 222012
 

An unScriptural view and practice of Loyalty is at the heart of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel's Problem.

Dave Rolph made a statement on PhoenixPreacher the other day that validated my assumptions about something I’ve noticed not only in myself and others, but largely within the Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith Ethos.

Here is Rolph’s statement: “Much of these differences between the two men are generational. Chuck comes from a generation where soldiers have each others’ backs, no matter what. Loyalty is a fundamental and non-negotiable matter of character. Driscoll, on the other hand, comes from a generation of wikileaks, Abu Graib etc. where betrayal is a matter of practicality and political expediency. Collateral damage is assumed. So you sell people out “for the good of the organization” which really means “for the good of the leader.” There are certainly times when an old school leader acts with disloyalty, and a new school leader acts selflessly, but in general the approaches remain consistent. So older people can’t understand how Driscoll could sell out people who are loyal to him, while younger people are mystified as to why Chuck has the back of someone who is killing him. Anytime you think someone is acting crazy it is almost always because you don’t understand their culture.”

See that? Dave Rolph has struck the HEART of the Core Problem at Calvary Chapel. “Loyalty”…and often Blind Loyalty and Unjust Scales and the opposite of 1 Timothy 5:19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

I took my beef to the Top and I learned that it was not about Justice, the Truth, and a Righteous Judgment. Chuck Smith made it very clear that it was about kissing the ring, submission to his Program and Loyalty. When I didn’t play ball, I was marked a “Yappy Dog” and “Loose Cannon” and lied about from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Pulpit…by a man who professes to be “Anointed” and some sort of Spiritual Leader and Prophet who believes he had the Authority from God to spawn an entire Movement.

In private discussions with Michael Newnham of PhoenixPreacher, I had accurately diagnosed this human Problem and Dynamic…and I’ve realized that we all pretty much operate under the same or similar dynamic. I had forwarded a beef someone else had with one of Michael’s CC Pastor Buddies. I observed that our own behavior (mine included, see below) is heavily affected by these relationships and whether one is an Ally or Enemy. Loyalty plays a HUGE part in how we mete out Grace and Justice. It just is.

Following is a chain of communication with Michael (my comments only with name redacted to protect Michael’s CC Pastor friend):

Michael had questioned me about the source of the information. Here’s my response and my observations on “Loyalty: Allies and Enemies Dynamic”:

“The person is a woman. She is XXXXXXXXXXXXX (didn’t give him the name, but described her). I understand your loyalty to XXXX and I imagine it’s much the same dynamic in play with BG, Chuck and others etc. It really does come down to Allies and Enemies and Relationships. We are gracious to those we count as friends who have gone to bat for us and we are much less gracious to those who we don’t know, don’t like or have harmed us. That’s just human nature and the way things are.

I’m not knocking you for it. It’s human nature. It’s just how we are. It’s normal and not necessarily bad or evil, it just is. I know you would blow him up if he hurt kids.I am guilty of the same humanness BTW.There is a CC pastor and his son who I should blow up, but I’m having a hard time doing so. The son molested another boy years ago during their CC Affiliation process. The Pastor’s son was 3 years older and much bigger than the other boy. CCCM was made aware of it (CCOF as well) and they Affiliated anyway. The family got shunned, smeared, booted etc. However, the molesting CC Pastor’s son is now an adult and a Marine who just came back from Afghanistan and the CC Pastor is a Marine as well. I can’t blow them up, even though if I was to be consistent, I should.

And, I won’t blow up XXXX b/c you’re my friend and b/c you vouch for him, even though, to be consistent, I should.Politics, Business, the Church, etc is very very similar. I am learning the same lessons in Local Politics and Business…and as I continue to study History, this is endemic to Mankind. It’s our Nature.It is how guys like BG and SH survive massive scandal and how CS gets away with much of what he does. All part of the dynamic.

They have built a massive Wall of Friends, Allies, Alliances, etc and receive maximum Grace when they need it and the benefit of the doubt when they need it. Those loyal to them don’t question their motives and rarely their actions and when they do find something they don’t like, they extend maximum Grace and protect them and defend them. I would do the same for you and some others.

3 year age difference between the boys. 14 and 11. My bad. The Mother is considering a lawsuit, though, so that might take care of it. I am pointing her to Kelly Clark and Tim Kosnoff. More fun for CCCM.

“It’s not nature…it’s grace”: Sometimes. And, sometimes it’s an excuse to not do the right thing, which can be the hard thing.Hey, there are many times I wonder if I should have taken on Bob G and CC, etc. I probably could’ve leveraged that whole situation and played it much differently and benefited my family in a variety of ways. I would have been much more popular and opened many more doors having found a way to over-look that stuff and cozied up to the CC Establishment.

I hear you and again, none of this is directed at you…I am just expressing my inner thoughts to a trusted friend. Have a good day, Michael. I am feeling much less obligated to take on CC, but to focus on building my business and benefiting the family I have left. Politics is a weird animal. It’s much uglier than I imagined at the local level. There are “sides” even at the local level…and it is nearly impossible to be independent and “issue by issue” vs. Pick a Side. You are left alone and not trusted if you don’t stake a firm claim to a Team…and it’s very difficult to coalesce support and a Consensus when you are solo and both Camps don’t feel you are part of them.

I think U2 put it best: “You’re dangerous…b/c you’re honest…you’re dangerous, you don’t know what you want”. Maybe God’s done using me for that or maybe it was all just my flesh, dunno.”

I agree with Dave Rolph’s assessment of Chuck Smith and the Calvary Chapel Dynamic. Personal Loyalty often trumps truth, righteousness, equal scales and blind justice in the Calvary Chapel System.

I disagree with Dave Rolph about Mark Driscoll to a degree. I think Driscoll has issues, no doubt, however, Mars Hill sure did seem to give a Mea Culpa and fired or demoted some people who did the wrong thing…unlike their Market-Share Jesus, Inc. competitors and rivals, Calvary Chapel.

I also think that Dave Rolph’s articulation of Loyalty is sinful due to his reference to Wikileaks as being a bad thing. It is this mindset that is telling of the unScriptural view of Loyalty (a World’s definition and not God’s) that is the Core of the Calvary Chapel Problem.

It is good to hear a Big Name in Calvary Chapel be so candid and honest. I hope that sort of transparency continues. It is only when the Problem is accurately understood…that it can ever be truly repented of.

Bob Grenier’s view of Loyalty (and Raul Ries for that matter) is the same as Chuck’s. It is this twisted belief that leads to covering over sin, corruption and abuse and justifying the protection of it and the facilitation and enabling of it behind Loyalty…as if that type of Loyalty is a Christian Virtue.

Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel’s version of Loyalty leads to Senior Pastors and Allies of Chuck Smith, Raul Ries and other Big Guys in the CC System getting away with child abuse, molestation, corruption, spiritual abuse and so much other bad stuff.

It is a denial of Scripture that speaks to Justice, Just Scales and Church Discipline that doesn’t show “partiality” or “favoritism” and the direct Command of Paul the Apostle here with such strong language it leaves no wiggle room even for the smoothest of CC spinmeisters and Scripture deniers:

1 Timothy 5:19-22

Again, I can’t hold that Standard and shouldn’t be a Pastor and Spiritual Leader. It’s hard to put Loyalty aside and do the right thing when it comes to an Ally. Much easier to blast away at an Enemy or someone you don’t know. I get Chuck Smith, Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel’s “Loyalty” Construct when it comes to Business, Politics, heck even the Mafia. I don’t get it when it comes to Spiritual Matters and the Office of Pastor/Elder as it is in direct opposition to Scripture…and I would assume that a Brand that professes to “teach the bible simply!”…that they view the Scripture as Authoritative. I could be wrong.

My Conclusion is that Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel are little different than what I see in Business and Politics…a.k.a. the World.

 Posted by at 8:46 am
Feb 202012
 

Right now the voices are saying, "Hamburger...with fries".

OK, it’s pretty much a straight copy of PhxP…but I like the premise.

1. I’m pretty sure Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa loses the Idaho Child Molestation Lawsuit (or settles and pays out some BIG bucks). I got clarification, my source now tells me it is Calvary Chapel Rathdrum that is suing the parents of one of the Calvary Chapel Child Molestation Victims and not CCCM, though there is some question as to whether CCCM is consulting on it or is in communication with Rathdrum about the suit. When I have the suit, I’ll post it. I’m sure CCCM would be upfront and answer some questions for clarification…or probably not. Maybe we can get Chuck Smith on his home phone again and see if he thinks it’s kosher that a Calvary Chapel is suing the Molestation Victim’s parents (as if they haven’t been through enough already). Maybe Chuck can remind me of “what the Bible says about forgiveness, it says an awful lot about that!” I’m fairly convinced it’s not very Christian-like for a Calvary Chapel to be suing the parents of the Calvary Chapel Child Molestation Victims, but I’d have to defer to the High Holy Profit Chuck Smith on that one…

2. Mike Macintosh, Raul Ries, David Rosales and some other Calvary Chapel Glitteratti will be rubbing shoulders and giving their endorsement for confirmed Child Abuser and alleged Child Molester Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia. They are attending Bob’s Event this week, details here: http://www.ccvisalia.com/resources/events-at-calvary.html Might be a surprise in store, we’ll see… ;-) They all know of the allegations of Molestation and the corroboration and admission of Child Abuse to Bob’s Board (which included Ries and Rosales). They simply could care less. Paul the Apostle speaks to this stuff here: 1 Corinthians 5, but that’s just the bible and doesn’t apply if you’re buddies with the abuser…it’s business as usual.

3. Our FED (Federal Reserve) has been successful in helping the US avoid a Great Depression II by selling the Car Crash and buying the Cancer. They won a key battle in the Economic World War III Currency War we’ve been in…unfortunately, we will lose the war thanks to their over-reaching. Details of “why” are here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/alex-joye-grenier/economic-wwiii-currency-wars-the-fed-won-the-battle-but-weve-all-lost-the-war-a-/279741358760893 The end result will be a World Central Bank and new World Reserve Currency supplanting the US Dollar as said WRC. It’ll happen in my lifetime. Before you cry “Conspiracy Theory!”…read the Note linked above with corresponding “in plain sight” data and corroboration.

4. I used to be an avid Baseball Fan, die-hard blue bleeding Dodger. Like with the Church, the business and money aspect of the Game has ruined it for me. Spring Training is almost here, and I could frankly care less. Mc”Bankruptcy”Court has gutted my team anyways.

5. Local Politics mirror Church Politics. I see virtually no difference. What does that say about the Church?

6. The US Military just cleaned out all of Federal Ammunition’s 5.56 ammo (according to a well-connected source in the Gun Industry). South Korea cleaned out PMC’s 5.56 ammo as well. Prelude to something? Just stocking up for no reason? Doubtful. We’ll see what happens…

7. With all the finger pointing going on in Presidential Politics and blame game for the sucky Economy… “It’s George Bush’s fault!”…”Barack Obama is a Socialist!”…etc etc…it always amazes me how illiterate most Americans are about how the Macro-Economy really works. The Office of President has very little to do with it. Our Economy is largely a function of the Federal Reserve (a.k.a. the FED) in cooperation with the Treasury Department and of course the powerful Big Corporate Lobbies and Wall Street/Big Corp/Big Bank System. Monetary Policy, Tax Law, Global Trade, so-called “Free Trade” and NAFTA have IMMENSELY more of an impact on High Unemployment, Stagnant Wages and Offshoring everything in sight, then who is President. The 2 Parties are not very far apart (outside of some Social Issues). GW Bush = Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulson (Goldman Sachs). Barack Obama = Ben Bernanke and Tim Geithner (Goldman Sachs). Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The only candidate in the current Landscape who would push for meaningful “change” is Ron Paul.

8. I’ve been discussing a lot of things with Mormon friends. The more we talk, the more similarity I see in their End Times emphasis and their Dispensationalism and other dynamics as Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. One difference, though, my Mormon friends are much nicer and more honest and seem to care more about people…and their Bishops get held accountable.

9. My Atheist friends still can’t resolve the dilemma: Only two choices for this Existence: 1. Infinite/Eternal Loop (Universe has always existed, no beginning, no first cause, and no end) or 2. An Uncaused Cause (something which is eternal with no beginning that is outside of all Closed Systems and has no cause) Caused the first stuff…and then the Chain of Causation took hold. No other option. Even M Theory asserts two Membranes collided causing our Universe. Where’d the two membranes come from? What caused them?

10. I’m not a big fan of cats. If it was legal, I’d hunt them. Make your own application :lol: (Wow, there are some cat lovers out there :smile: See that laughing thingy over yonder? That means I’m kidding. Lighten up folks :smile: )

 Posted by at 6:25 pm