Calvary Chapel Abuse



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Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel leader diagnosed with Stage 3 lung cancer: We discuss the irony and Chuck’s belief and practice of the Doctrine of “Divine Retribution”

Pastor Chuck Smith founder and leader of the Calvary Chapel System and pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. He was recently diagnosed with Stage 3 Lung Cancer. Our prayers are with him and his family and we hope for a miracle and more time.

OneNewsNow California

Calvary Chapel’s founder recently announced that he is completely at peace after being diagnosed with cancer.

California-based Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa announced Sunday that its senior pastor, Chuck Smith, is suffering from Stage 3 lung cancer (see earlier story). The longtime preacher and icon in the Jesus movement shocked congregants with the announcement January 1. He is expected to have surgery this month.

Read the rest of the story here: http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1512432

Commentary (by Alex):

It’s confirmed that Chuck Smith has stage 3 lung cancer. The life expectancy at Chuck’s advanced age is pretty short a year or so at best. Our prayers are with Chuck and his family.

I won’t play Political Correctness and sweep the other stuff under the rug, but I don’t wish this on Chuck or his family or his followers. I still find the timing ironic only because Chuck and many others who follow him in Calvary Chapel embrace, practice and teach the doctrine of Divine Retribution:

From Christianity Today’s article: Day of Reckoninghttp://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/march/7.53.html?start=3

Other churchgoers say Calvary Chapel pastors also don’t like to be questioned. During the investigation for this article, [Chuck] Smith cautioned CT’s reporter: “The Lord warns, ‘Don’t touch my anointed. Do my prophet no harm.’ I think that you are trying to do harm to the work of God. I surely wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.”

Unfortunately, in my in-person “Meeting” with Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph and Chuck’s attorney Janet Carter, I received the same or similar warning and was told I was “tearing down a work of the Lord!” etc.

The articulation above by Chuck Smith and his history of ascribing tragedy to “God’s Judgment” on those who have challenged him or Calvary Chapel is legendary (many many instances of this).

Here is the audio (in a youtube vid) of Chuck’s “Divine Retribution” in action (against me) from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Pulpit just prior to his diagnosis:

[Correction of Chuck's words above: I called him and initiated our meeting, not Chuck...and the blog is not "all lies" etc. It's important to note that Chuck stated that "God would take care of it (me) and that Chuck could only hurt me a little, but the Lord, well the Lord would really well you know...and that Chuck is glad he has the Lord on his side. Classic "Divine Retribution" stuff, though a little more subtle than the Christianity Today reporter's warning and other examples, but still a clear example.]

Bob Grenier, Calvary Chapel Visalia, practices the same Doctrine taught and exampled by Chuck. I personally witnessed this mindset, this rhetoric and this application many many times growing up behind the scenes as a Calvary Chapel PK (Pastor’s Kid).

Those who challenge the Senior CC Pastor and/or Calvary Chapel are marked “enemies” and “of the devil” etc. And, they are warned “Touch not God’s anointed” and examples are often given to illustrate tragedy that has befallen others (i.e. one critic died, one reporter’s son committed suicide, Greg Laurie’s son died in a car crash not long after Greg broke into the Orange County Market and former Insiders share first-person testimony that Chuck Smith and others within Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa attributed the son’s tragic death to God dealing with Greg).

Intellectually, I find Chuck Smith’s Doctrine of “Divine Retribution” to be sketchy at best and downright sinful at worst.

We can find the example of Ananias and Saphira in the New Testament…but not much else. In the Old Testament (and Past Dispensation…for the Dispies among us) the Principle seemed to apply. God would deal with the enemies of the Nation of Israel and the enemies of God’s Prophets…and God would deal with the Nation of Israel and bring judgment upon them when they wouldn’t repent.

However, in the New Testament, we don’t see this principle in place outside of Ananias and Saphira and in their context it was two people claiming a religious act of worship, yet lying to God and others about it (say, like a Preacher and/or Leader of Movement being untruthful about who is righteous in a particular situation and covering up much sin, abuse and corruption in his Camp? Dunno…).

I will say that if Chuck Smith is right about the Doctrine of Divine Retribution…that God sometimes does deal with those who “Touch His anointed”…then it would seem appropriate to consider that Chuck’s tragedy…if one ascribes to his Doctrinal Position with regards to this principle…says something.

If Chuck’s take on Divine Retribution is false (and I believe it most likely is and just a manipulative tool he and Bob Grenier and others in Calvary Chapel use to intimidate and keep the faithful faithful) then it is ironic that Chuck Smith warns me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Pulpit about how God can really deal with me, while Chuck can only hurt me a little…and that God is on Chuck’s side, implying I am on the side of the devil.

I hope Chuck and others who follow him will learn a lesson from all of this. Be more gracious. Don’t keep practicing the knee-jerk Calvary Chapel reaction to mark people infidels and enemies from the devil and don’t call down God’s judgment on them and infer they are on the side of the devil and that God will get them…when they question you, challenge you and call your b.s. (and lying, etc.).

I frankly think that Chuck Smith’s health tragedy is likely coincidence and the result of old age…however, make no mistake, had I come down with lung cancer after Chuck’s fatwa on me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Pulpit…you can carve it on stone tablets that Chuck Smith, Bob Grenier and other Chuck-ites would have said, “See told you so! God GOT him!”

Chuck Smith will die soon. The Calvary Chapel Movement will be in much turmoil after Chuck’s passing (and the pending Lawsuit by the four boys who were molested in the Calvary Chapel System is still moving along in the Court System and other suits are coming). My hope is that the PR and “Positive Only” Spin that is sure to dominate the communication landscape when Chuck croaks, is somewhat balanced out by calling out the truth and realities of the bad stuff that makes up Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel’s Legacy as well. Not for revenge, but so some can learn from history and the “good” Calvary Chapel guys can continue the “good” parts of CC…while leaving the bad stuff behind (and unfortunately there will be many bad CC pastors to carry on the tradition of bad stuff as well).

Calvary Chapel as we knew it is no more. The Transition has begun and the Legacy is being written. There is Good, Bad and Ugly. God help us to embrace the good, while calling out and not repeating the bad and the ugly.

Posted by on January 13, 2012.

Categories: Pastor Chuck Smith

253 Responses

  1. Well for Gregg son, he was the real threat to Calvary Chapel like Rick Warren. Warren has already taken a big chunk out of the OC market anyway. Both Orange County and Riverside are changing a lot and I doubt that middle age and senior white guys will be successful in the past. In factm, to exceed in Calvary Chapel in the future you have to be a cross between Raul Ries-hispanics are growing by leaps and bounds and whites are leaving or aging in the greater LA area. and Gregg Laurie that appeals to everyone. I know this since the US census shows OC- whites down to 45 percent over 90 percent in 1970. Riverside whites down to 42 percent. Hispanics OC 34 percent and asians between 17 to 18 percent. Riverside hispanics around 44 percent and asians about 6 percent. In fact, Calvary in the greater LA area is a lot more foreign born around 32 percent if you include Riverside and San Beranadino. Us average around 12 percent and around 44 percent hispanci and about 13 percent asian. US averages around 17 percent hispanic and about 5 to 6 percent asian. Joel Osteen in the greater Houston area has some of this since Houston metro is 24 percent foreign born around 38 percent hispanic if you include wealtheir counties and about 5 percent asian and a lot more Afro-American, Houston is about 18 percent Afro-American versus the lower greater La average if you include very low-Afro_American Orange County about 1.9 percent which is way below the US average. OC is more foreign born, hispanic and asian than the US as a whole and a lot less afro-american. A group demograahic different from most parts of the US. Granted, still enough nice whiter suburbs around the beach and south county for Calvary and Saddelback to compete against.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 13, 2012 at 9:51 pm

  2. miiddle age and senior white guys will be sucessful as much in the future.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 14, 2012 at 6:05 am

  3. This is my little two cents worth …. People need to take the church back, just like we need to take the government back. We turn a blind eye and don’t get involved because we are lazy and just care about our own interest. If the church is beautiful and meets are needs, then we overlook the corruption. It’s pretty disgusting. We don’t get involved in politics because it’s too much work and we feel like we don’t have a voice. We need to be courageous and stand together again. We should NOT let evil dwell in the pulpit proclaiming God’s Word. I don’t care what nationality you are personally. Strip off the skin and we all look the same. Don’t we care anymore?! Or do we just go to church and step over the bodies that have been slain by evil preachers?

    by Tina Jenkins on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:37 am

  4. Let me see if I can put this in words… When I hear an evil pastor say, “Shhhhh, you don’t want to harm the church.” I think of a child molester who says, “Shhhhhh, don’t tell or this could lead to you going into foster care and your family will be split up.” It is pure evil.

    The child is in a dillema. Do they stay under the abuse or do they tell? If they speak out, they may loose their family but they save others from harm. If they don’t, they continue to be abused and others will be hurt, however their family stays together.

    What do we call a child who speaks out? What do we call someone who speaks out against corruption in the church?

    There is no difference. They are being abused.

    by Tina Jenkins on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:09 am

  5. But most importantly the dillema is the same.

    by Tina Jenkins on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:36 am

  6. Tina said, “When I hear an evil pastor say, “Shhhhh, you don’t want to harm the church.” I think of a child molester who says, “Shhhhhh, don’t tell or this could lead to you going into foster care and your family will be split up.” It is pure evil.”

    I totally agree!

    by Grateful on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:13 am

  7. In reflecting on the Ananias and Saphira story, I see some real differences. Opposing an apostle when you are wrong and lying to the Holy Spirit can be deadly. Fortunately there’s no lies being told here and Chuck is no Apostle Peter.

    Even Apostles should be challenged when they are in the wrong (Paul vs Peter comes to mind). Peter didn’t try one of those “but I am the chosen apostle and you are just…” to Paul. He repented when he was called out. Calling out the great Peter was the right thing to do.

    I’ll say for the sake of argument that some divine retribution method works for the guy that is in the right. The proof that people are still alive and well (myself 15 years after Smith did the same thing to me) are proof this doesn’t work. It doesn’t work for Smith because he is not in the right.

    It’s a form of Charismatic witchcraft. It is practiced by the Word Faith preachers who believe they can call God to do their bidding. In following their heresy, Smith shows himself for who he is – a vindictive person. Not someone who prays for those who oppose him, but someone who calls down curses on them. Someone who confuses his own works and will with God’s. In short, a little “g” god himself.

    by Doug Gilliland on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:22 am

  8. “We can find the example of Ananias and Saphira in the New Testament…but not much else”

    If you ask me that’s much…you don’t need much else. So if Divine Retribution is in the OT and the NT what more do you need? Plus there’s this:

    Romans 1:18 – For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

    The wrath of God can be broadly defined to encompass a plethora of calamities upon the enemy of God’s people.

    “I’ll say for the sake of argument that some divine retribution method works for the guy that is in the right…. It doesn’t work for Smith because he is not in the right.”

    And it’s devastating, humiliating to guys like Smith, Coy and others when they and their associates/supporters/agents are on the receiving end of Divine Retribution… they chalk it up to a work of the devil, enemy, occult, sorcery and all kinds of misapplication of scripture for the sole purpose of deflecting from the unrepentant and secret sins in their lives.

    by stop it now on Jan 14, 2012 at 1:17 pm

  9. I agree with Tina on this about taking the church back. But it will have to totally be a different aproach then what these guys are doing. It starts with humility and total devotion to Christ and the Gospel – not in a superficial way, but the way Paul did it. He boasted not in his works, but in his weakness. Allowing the Holy Spirit to take charge. Paul did not do countless conferences and write tons of books. Which after all these years you would think the countless number of Christian books would have contributed to some kind of change, but did they do anything? Not! Most of these conferences and books have to do with profit and promotion, not producing change; plus who is the One who produces the change in us anyway, not man but the Holy Spirit. If we do not come humbly before the Lord, do you think He will listen?- No. No wonder we are in such the mess that we are in. Always working, but never surrendering.

    by FG on Jan 14, 2012 at 1:37 pm

  10. If Chuck and the Miyans are right, we are short timers. YAY!

    by Not Alone on Jan 14, 2012 at 7:57 pm

  11. Quote: Greg Laurie’s son died in a car crash not long after Greg broke into the Orange County Market and former Insiders share first-person testimony that Chuck Smith and others within Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa attributed the son’s tragic death to God dealing with Greg

    Oh, here we go again. Who are these unnamed “former insiders”?

    I dare these “former insiders” of yours come out of hiding and say this stuff right to Greg Laurie’s face. After all, don’t they owe to Greg to let him know what horrible monster Chuck Smith truely is?

    Of course, they won’t do this because they are COWARDS who are telling absurd lies, and Greg Laurie will instantly know that they are lying.

    But everybody, be sure to check out this video a secret “insider” of mine sent recently me which shows Chuck and Greg getting into a very heated argument about Greg stealing Chuck’s Orange County market share. During their incendiary screaming match, Greg landed a few punches on Chuck’s nose after Chuck tells him that Greg’s son Christopher got his brains smashed into the rear axle of a CalTrans sweeper truck because Greg dared to invade Chuck’s turf. You can see the veins bulge in Chuck’s bald pate as he calls down horrific judgements on Greg.

    Oh, who are you people going to believe? My secret “insider” informant or your lying eyes?

    by Ignominious on Jan 14, 2012 at 8:06 pm

  12. Iggy, the former insider posted it on my facebook page in a thread with the person’s name on it. Hundreds of my fb friends can verify it and that’s good enough for me (heck I think Cathe Laurie is an FB friend of mine and can see it).

    Fact: the person (and the family) are former insiders as close as one can get to the inside.

    Fact: the person made the statement from first-person account.

    Fact: If true, it sucks. I believe it to be true as this person’s stuff has checked out many many times before.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 8:16 pm

  13. Iggy said, “Of course, they won’t do this because they are COWARDS who are telling absurd lies, and Greg Laurie will instantly know that they are lying.”

    LOL. You don’t know these people very well…but I’ll pass it on.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 8:17 pm

  14. I realize this is not the right thread, but I am wondering if anyone can tell me why Dave Thomas was forced out? What did he do to piss off his highness bob and co-hort Greg? I have wondered for years what caused the split. If anyone can answer, I would greatly appreciate it.

    by friend in CA on Jan 14, 2012 at 8:21 pm

  15. Alex;: You don’t know these people very well…but I’ll pass it on

    Okay, fair enough. But make dang sure you pass ALL of it on.

    I dare these “former insiders” of yours come out of hiding and say this stuff right to Greg Laurie’s face. After all, don’t they owe to Greg to let him know what horrible monster Chuck Smith truely is?

    Of course, they won’t do this because they are COWARDS who are telling absurd lies, and Greg Laurie will instantly know that they are lying.

    I want them to say this nonsense about Christopher it to Greg PERSONALLY.

    And I want everybody here to see this video which I had in the link above.

    http://www.harvest.org/store/chuck-smith-interview

    by Ignominious on Jan 14, 2012 at 8:40 pm

  16. Quote: “the former insider posted it on my facebook page in a thread with the person’s name on it.

    Then there is really no problem with you just giving the person’s name right here for everyone to see, right? Tell us who the insider is, who is “close as one can get to the inside.”

    Why not just make it easy for everybody? We all crave transparency around here, don’t we?

    by Ignominious on Jan 14, 2012 at 8:52 pm

  17. Iggy, yes, transparency. Got it.

    Email me your phone number and I’ll be happy to talk with you and give you the sources contact info and you can deliver your message to them directly.

    LOL.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:09 pm

  18. Hmm, odds of “Iggy” giving me a real phone number and standing behind their words: About the odds of Denver coming back against the Patriots right now ROTFLOL :lol:

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:11 pm

  19. I know you’re not talking crap about Denver right now….. *sigh* I knew we wouldn’t win this game, but dang….

    by friend in CA on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm

  20. “Friend” LOL. I was pulling for the Broncos and Tebow, but Brady and the Pats are just at another level. Hey, the Broncos and Tebow had a great season.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:29 pm

  21. They did have quite the season – really looking forward to the off season as Elway said he is wanting to work with Tebow. Should be fantastic! Might just have to go to another game in Denver next year :)

    by friend in CA on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:35 pm

  22. If what happened with Dave and Bob cannot be published for all – would you be able to privately e-mail any info? Such as if he and Beth are doing well and where they are?

    by friend in CA on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:40 pm

  23. Stupid Donkeys and their whining light weight fans. Rivers threw for 316 yards one game and nobody mentioned anything. If Elway was really smart, he’d trade for Cutler.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 9:52 pm

  24. Hiym, lol.

    I like Tebow (I like underdogs especially little yappy ones for some reason :smile: )…but I completely agree. Tebow will win some games and he won’t quit, but it will continue to be difficult to build a team around him. He, in fact, cannot hit the broad side of a barn. But, he’s got heart, he can run and can win some games.

    The Broncos should draft Kellen Moore from Boise State (also Broncos). There’s a QB who can matriculate the ball down the field! Make Tebow a Tight-end/H-back or big WR.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:01 pm

  25. Alex:

    You can “matriculate” your Spuds next year to Qualcomm to get a good ol’e fashion a- whooping and then we’ll rock you the next year in the Big East.

    P.s. How’s yer b-ball program? We beat UNLV tonight and STOL I’d east media biased jerks don’t even mention it.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:24 pm

  26. And I am right if I am truly Hiym Wright.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:25 pm

  27. Friend in CA

    Do us us Coloradans a favor and stay in CA. Colorado is for real Christians and dumb donkey lovers.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:29 pm

  28. Quote: Email me your phone number.

    Cute Evasive Maneurver, I see. Oh, So make me the issue, when I am not the one spreading the filthy slander regarding Chuck, Greg Laurie, and his son Christorpher Laurie, whereas YOU ARE making this claim, which you still haven’t proven. The burden of proof is on you. But all you have really proven so far is that your deranged hatred of Chuck Smith has now reached the point where you’ll now believe practically any lie some person, some supposed “insider” tells you about him—this insider whom you still won’t reveal to everybody here even though you have said that hundreds of your friends supposedly saw his name on your Faceback page already—as though something that somebody posts in FB counted for anything. Obviously, those hundred of friends didn’t hear Chuck say any such nonsense about Greg and Christopher, just this one “insider” of yours. And people are supposed to just take your word for it that we’re supposed to believe this “insider”. If they do, then people are being really foolish to taken in by this.

    No, Alex, I simply caught you spreading somebody’s particularly vile lie, which you still keep spreading because it’s just another weapon for you to use which you happened to have picked up along the way in pursuing the White Whale that you have to destroy at all costs.

    To my shame, I admit at first I was taken in by you. But when you started up with the stuff about Smith being a “false prophet” and “heretic”, then I began to realize that you were talking incoherently out of both sides of your mouth. If Chuck Smith is a “heretic” and a “false prophet”, then he is just that and is therefore NOT a pastor with any real supervisory authority from God. And since he has no real, legitimate authority, he would have no legitimate authority from God to do anything about your step father. Therefore, there could be no point in your continueing to hector Smith into doing something about Bob Grenier. And now it has turned out that because Smith wouldn’t submit to your non-negotiable demands, he has now become just another enemy for you to destroy at all costs, using whatever mean you happen to find handy, no matter what.

    And, no, I am not sending my phone number to you. I am not that stupid.

    by Ignominious on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:34 pm

  29. “Iggy” looks like I touched a nerve, LOL. I already know who you are. You’ve been playing games on here for quite some time. Don’t feign now.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:36 pm

  30. Hiym, can you tell “Iggy” to chill out. Yikes!

    My hebrew friend, I’ll have to brush up on our Spuds Bball program. I’ve kind of lost interest in that sport.

    Next football season will be interesting w/o Kellen Moore, that’s for sure. It’ll test Peterson’s talent to figure a way to win, big time. We’ve been a bit spoiled for the last 6 or 7 seasons.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:41 pm

  31. “Iggy” said, “But when you started up with the stuff about Smith being a “false prophet” and “heretic”, then I began to realize that you were talking incoherently out of both sides of your mouth. If Chuck Smith is a “heretic” and a “false prophet”, then he is just that and is therefore NOT a pastor with any real supervisory authority from God. And since he has no real, legitimate authority, he would have no legitimate authority from God to do anything about your step father. Therefore, there could be no point in your continueing to hector Smith into doing something about Bob Grenier. ”

    Your logic is so flawed here it’s laughable.

    Re-examine your Premise there.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:48 pm

  32. Enough arguing you schmoes about Chuck and Laurie. It fully detracts so some of the greater issues here. For instance, I just heard a guy named Revered Hendrie who finally explained with clarity the differences between RCC and Protestant communion. It is an audio clip about 7 minutes long with and the explanation doesn’t really start until two minutes in, but well worth your time

    http://www.philhendrieshow.com/storage/Phil_Hendrie_Classic_Podcast_-_All_You_Can_Eat_Negro.mp3

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 10:51 pm

  33. Alex you could be sued for using the name Calvary Chapel on your webiste for copyright infringement.

    Typed Drawing

    ——————————————————————————–
    Word Mark CALVARY CHAPEL
    Goods and Services IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: evangelistic and ministerial services. FIRST USE: 19611212. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19611212
    Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
    Serial Number 75696114
    Filing Date May 3, 1999
    Current Filing Basis 1A
    Original Filing Basis 1A
    Published for Opposition August 28, 2001
    Registration Number 2508503
    Registration Date November 20, 2001
    Owner (REGISTRANT) CALVARY CHAPEL OF COSTA MESA RELIGIOUS NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3800 S. Fairview Avenue Santa Ana CALIFORNIA 92704
    Attorney of Record L S VAN LANDINGHAM III
    Prior Registrations 2340251
    Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
    Register PRINCIPAL
    Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20110805.
    Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20110805
    Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

    by Tobias on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:05 pm

  34. Hey Tobias

    Why don’t you cease and desist with your quasi- lawyering and listen to the audio, for crying out loud?

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:07 pm

  35. Tobias, that would be great if CC sued for copyright infringement. That would show more Agency, that they enforce their Copyright (which they own as you point out).

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:12 pm

  36. Hym

    Why don’t you REPENT!

    by Tobias on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:15 pm

  37. Only if you promise to stop being a lawyer. You are not very good at it you know.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:17 pm

  38. Repent. For what?

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:18 pm

  39. Cathie Laurie is not your f.b. friend. What a joke.

    by nonya biz on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:20 pm

  40. Hym

    I take it you hold a J.D. degree because of your opinion. Which school did you receive your law degree from?

    by Tobias on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:20 pm

  41. Hym

    REPENT from you foolishness.

    by Tobias on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:22 pm

  42. I didn’t go to law school. I went to rabbinical school on Pico Blvd in LA. Mogen David. That’s why I don’t need to repent…we are chosen unlike you goyim

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:23 pm

  43. You need to be careful with your comments. I am Jewish and my forefathers were also. There is no way any student who attented a rabbinical school would insult a JEW as myself. You really better be careful with your foolish words.

    by Tobias on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:28 pm

  44. “(heck I think Cathe Laurie is an FB friend of mine and can see it).” –Alex

    See that “I think” up there “Nonya”…it’s called a “qualifier”.

    I just checked and while I think she used to be a ‘friend” I am now a subscriber which many public figures do. At one time, though, I think she had me as a “friend” due to my last name (and the fact I knew Greg back in the day when he came to Visalia and was buds with Bob Grenier, etc doing some evangelism at Maranatha Concerts at the Visalia Convention Center before he was “Greg Laurie”).

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:29 pm

  45. Tobias, question, since you appear to be a legal expert and tuned into Calvary Chapel:

    How is it that a guy like Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia gets to use the “Calvary Chapel” name and Dove logo? Why is he so special?

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:32 pm

  46. My sincerest apologies. Had I known in advance you were part of the Tribe, I would have approached you differently, not like these people. Now where did you go to law school and did you do your mother and bubba proud and make law review?

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:33 pm

  47. Tobias, did you run off for a bagel? Where’d you go buddy?

    Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa “owns” the licensing rights to the Name Calvary Chapel and the Dove Logo as you pointed out.

    Why is it that a guy like Bob Grenier, Dino Cardelli, etc etc can use the name Calvary Chapel and use the Dove Logo…and I can’t?

    Can you enlighten me mr. law professor? And, while you’re at it, maybe you can explain to me the Law of Agency, Implied Agency / Apparent Agency etc.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:40 pm

  48. You chased him away, you suit wearing avatar bobo

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:43 pm

  49. I always knew deep down inside you were anti-semetic, what with a French name and all.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:45 pm

  50. LOL. One bagel joke and I’m anti-heeb. Nice! :smile:

    I love the Jews, someone had to kill Jesus and fulfill the prophecy so us goyim and gentiles could have a shot at Salvation. :lol:

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:52 pm

  51. …and I don’t really care for the French. The name is french canadian (step dad), the blood is Italian with some American Injun and euro-mutt.

    by Alex on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:54 pm

  52. Well. You chased him away anyways. Don’t Jew know you shouldn’t make bagel jokes?

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 14, 2012 at 11:57 pm

  53. Well. Good night and good shabbos. I’m making latkes and they are ready now.

    by Hiym Wright on Jan 15, 2012 at 12:00 am

  54. Hiym, who do you think I am…Jesus? You’re killing me :lol: :smile:

    by Alex on Jan 15, 2012 at 12:00 am

  55. G’nite my friend.

    by Alex on Jan 15, 2012 at 12:01 am

  56. I’m so sick of all these ” holy men”….I was raised Catholic and had a rebellious youth and fell away from the Lord..when I was about 30 I felt a tug on my heart to get right and back with God. Naturally I attempted to go back to the only thing I had known , the RCC..I went to church on a Good Friday and went into “confession”…the VERY FIRST thing the priest asked me during confession was ” are you married” ? I said yes. He then said ” were you married in the Catholic Church? ” I said No. He then told he could not “absolve” me of my sins, I’d have to get my husband to convert and we would have to take classes and be married in the RCC ( we had already been married 10 years !)..I was shocked. He was basically telling me as far as he and the RCC was concerned I could die and go to hell with these “sins” on me because I wasn’t married in the RCC. I went out in the parking lot sat in my car and cried for about 15 minutes. I suddenly felt the voice of the Lord tell me
    ” no MAN can forgive you of your sins, only I can and I have”…I stopped crying and had peace. I shared my story with a guy at work, he gave me a Greg Laurie track, I got saved and started going to a Calvary Chapel…for 15 years…under a judgmental, controlling, prideful ” Moses Model ” young pastor, who btw adores Chuck Smith. I did learn the Bible well and my relationship with the Lord grew. Well after my disdain for all things CC due to what I experienced at CC I stopped going to church. I tried a few others but I just didn’t have the heart. I am kind of feeling man has adulterated what the Lord meant His church to be.
    But lately I’ve been feeling I “should” go to church ( the old guilt about not forsaking gathering together). So I check out a few websites …I find one that looks interesting but I notice in their ” are you new to the church ” section they state for Sunday services women should wear a dress or skirt and men suit /tie/jacket. I have a real pet peeve about being told how I should dress when going to church. I don’t think the King of the Universe cares if I wear a dress or not. So t’m not welcome if I don’t dress like they want me to, to hell with my soul. I sent the “pastor” an email :
    “I was considering visiting your church but came across your dress “rules”…so unless I wear a dress or skirt and my husband wears a suit and tie we are not welcome.
    This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He admonished the Pharisees regarding them setting up man made rules and burdens upon people which kept them out of the kingdom of God by their man made “rules”.
    Do you really think the glorious God Almighty cares if a person comes to learn about Him and worship and is dressed in a nice pair slacks or clean new jeans ? Is God not interested in the heart while man is interested on the ‘ outside’ ? Do you think the God of the Universe who created all cares if a man who loves Him does not wear a suit ? You put much adoration on your ” building”, God is interested in the heart not your ” building”..the Holy Spirit resides in the heart of the man who loves and honors Him, not a ” building”…
    You would keep people out of the Kingdom of God because they don’t dress as you would like ? What about the poor who cannot afford to go out and buy a new wardrobe to impress you ? Do you think a man who is a laborer and has an income that just affords him to care for his family and children has a closet full of suits to just wear on Sunday to impress you ? ( you probably would not this man at your church anyway because he cannot tithe above and beyond his %10) You will answer to the Lord Almighty for this. He will ask you why you discouraged people from coming to the kingdom of God because of your tradition and rules …what will you answer..do you think Jesus told those who came to sit at His feet and listen to Him when He walked this earth told them ” don’t come unless you are dressed up ” ? That is exactly what you are doing.
    You strain at a Gnat and Swallow a Camel … For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law..which is love and welcoming all in the name of the Lord.|
    -Woe to you scribes and Pharisees for you shut the kingdom of heaven. You do not enter the kingdom and you prevent others from entering it.
    -Woe to you Pharisees, you blind guides, you blind men.
    -Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you tithe on the trivia but neglect the weightier issues of law, justice, mercy and faith.
    -Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for outwardly you appear beautiful but inwardly you are full of dead men’s bones.|”

    His response ? LOL This is all he had to say:
    “If the President of the United States invited you to dinner, how would you dress? Is not our Lord more important than the President?
    By the way, who are you? ”

    I’m so done with organized ” religion”…I’ll worship the Lord in my own house..He doesn’t care if I’m in my pajamas when I do so…

    by Onyx on Jan 15, 2012 at 12:32 am

  57. @Ignominious

    First, attach a photo of ur mug as well as stop hiding behind a psuedo name and then maybe we will take you a bit more seriously.

    I could care less about the souces behind this story Alex is telling about the death of Greg’s son. Fact is it happened. None of us know why. What Chuck said to him behind closed doors? Who cares?

    You seem bent on finding some way to discredit this blog over this one point. You need to realize that while this may never have happened, the stories on this blog of destroyed lives did! That fact you cannot ignore. I think you are a former CC pastor who was run off for something you did…..that’s what you sound like to me. Show yourself and use your name before you point your finger. Also, you may want to tackle some of the other topics on this blog before you focus on this one story……u need to put forth a collective argument if you’re trying to discredit what is going on here. So far your point is singular and aimed at putting doubt into readers minds about what they are seeing here.

    The damage has been done in the CC movement. Even if Chuck Smith repented for his lack of accountability do you really think his protege’s would abandon a model of control that has made them profitable for the last 40 plus years? I think not.

    When you grow up as a child of someone who is more dedicated to a church ministry then they are to their family you have a different take on things. I hope you’re not in ministry at a CC and I hope your family isn’t suffering because you think it’s more improtant to serve God (i.e Calvary Chapel) then it is to love your family.

    As far as going back and forth with Alex….let it go. The majority of us who post here have seen the vileness within CC with our own eyes. This is no longer a movement of God. It is a movement of men. One that centers on keeping the status quo at all costs. Even protecting those within their camp who abuse others. It’s been documented so no need arguing the point. This blog is merely an outlet for those who have suffered. We are watching God take CC down. There is so much family infighting that there may not be a CC left very soon.

    Just in case you’re wondering. I don’t agree with the doctrine of “divine retribution”. If God was in to smiting everyone who spoke out against one of his “annointed” then myself and several people would be dead already! There will be no “tears of Korah” here. No leprosy for Miriam. We’ve all been to the show. We’ve seen who’s pulling the strings.

    Their sin has found them out.

    by John on Jan 15, 2012 at 1:19 am

  58. @Ignominious…ok…..so my mug shot seems to not be working either so if you have one I apologize….but serouisly man….why hide behind that name?

    by John on Jan 15, 2012 at 1:32 am

  59. [...] Excerpted Recommended PASTOR LEADERS article FROM http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1069h148(); [...]

    by | Calvary Chapel Abuse | pastorleaders.com on Jan 15, 2012 at 5:14 am

  60. “But when you started up with the stuff about Smith being a “false prophet” and “heretic”, then I began to realize that you were talking incoherently out of both sides of your mouth. If Chuck Smith is a “heretic” and a “false prophet”, then he is just that and is therefore NOT a pastor with any real supervisory authority from God. And since he has no real, legitimate authority, he would have no legitimate authority from God to do anything about your step father. ”

    1- Chuck is a false prophet. He called down judgment and it didn’t happen.
    2- Chuck is a false teacher. He said Jesus was coming back before the end of 1981 and it didn’t happen.
    3- Chuck is a heretic who denies the resurrection of the flesh. This is a denial of the fundamentals of the faith.
    4- Chuck has no real authority to do anything except in his own man-made kingdom, of Calvary Chapel. There he functions with a greater power than the Pope himself in the Catholic Church.
    5- The appeal in Matt 18 is to “take it to the church” – not to the leader of the cult. Taking the matter to Chuck rather than being able to make a case before the church shows CC is not a church but a personality cult.

    by Doug Gilliland on Jan 15, 2012 at 11:16 am

  61. Doug

    Amen!

    All your points are good, but 5 is one where so much sin in cc resides: lack of true opportunity for reconciliation with brothers and sisters in the Lord. At my former cc, I personally asked every person (40 or so) who left ” did the leadership every apologize for anything? “. Even stepping on your shoe, etc. not one person can recall ANY episode of
    Apology or contrite ness etc. the ” pastor” is never wrong! Ever! Funny, when I confronted him outside of cc building he is whimp and was caught in his own lie.

    Thanks Doug and Alex for holding their feet to the fire.
    Blessings.

    by David on Jan 15, 2012 at 2:33 pm

  62. I sent an email to Dave Rolph yesterday expressing my disbelief and sadness over the Laurie’s being discussed on this blog. He is passing it along to Greg and Cathe. I am absolutely sickened that the great personal tragedy that family has suffered is now fodder on this blog. Clearly, Bob Grenier, has a lot to answer for and he may not answer for it in this lifetime, but at some point he will answer for his sins. However, this doesn’t make it acceptable to drag innocent people into the mess that Bob Grenier has created by refusing to step down from the pulpit.

    I can personally attest to how painful it is to read about private things in your life being made public in the newspapers, magazines, radio interviews and websites. Greg and Cathe don’t deserve this. Their son who tragically passed away left behind a wife and children. I believe people need to have some respect for the Laurie’s and show some compassion by not talking about this tragedy.

    Compassion will cure more sins than condemnation.

    by Paul Grenier on Jan 16, 2012 at 9:17 am

  63. Spot on Paul. I am sure that is the reason many folks have backed off posting on this blog. I imagine many are reading but don’t want to be associated with posting on it.
    I continue to pray for hurt and wounded folks here, but won’t be a part of what Paul is referring to.

    by Nonnie on Jan 16, 2012 at 10:02 am

  64. This is a joke! Why was I no named in the declaration of war! This is an outrage! Lol, what a sad story! Prepare yourself for the death of Calvary Chapel – BTW, I am working on a new show about John Higgins called Tug-o-nomics, the dark side of CC! Higgins is just a flim-flam, a liar, and thief – Peace and God Bless – Jeremy

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 16, 2012 at 12:56 pm

  65. typo….forgot the “t” on not

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 16, 2012 at 1:01 pm

  66. Onyx @ 56, Wow that’s really something. I can’t even imagine the pain you must have felt from both the Catholic Church and your other experiences. That is really something. And I believe you are right, God does love you in your pjs. I’m convinced His heart broke for you as he watched you suffer. He sees all the suffering. You are loved by God.

    by Tina Jenkins on Jan 16, 2012 at 6:59 pm

  67. Tina,

    I thought of Psalm 63:1
    Seems God is OK with us seeking Him in our pjs :)

    by Hannah on Jan 17, 2012 at 6:35 am

  68. Correction- Psalm 5:3 for the pjs

    Onyx,

    Your situation with the RCC in that case led you out, which was a good thing.
    They will also not marry you if you have been divorced regardless of the circumstances.
    There is no biblical basis for that.
    You can have a husband that commits adultery and abandons you, and divorces you, and because you are a divorced woman, regardless of the circumstances, you can’t get remarried unless you get an annullment which means the marriage never happened and then your children are illegitimate.

    I understand your frustration about wanting to be at a church and not finding one.
    I suspect there are more people like us than we realize.
    Men in power want worship that is for God alone.

    by Hannah on Jan 17, 2012 at 6:46 am

  69. John Higgins Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Tri City Tempe Arizona, Shiloh Commune Leader house of miracles inthedays radiofreechurch, godlyconferences gave his controlled opposition monologue to the church about this site and other blogs on Jan. 15, 2012 Quote begins @48.50 minute mark. It seems to me he might of “forgotten” to mention a few important details?

    “There’s a lot of blog sites and I don’t get into blog sites. Most of them are just trying to hurt somebody else and bad opinions and everything. There’s actually blog sites out there done in this town THAT ARE REJOICING IN CHUCKS ILLNESS and they are saying well that proves that Chuck Smith was in sin and Calvary’s gonna collapse now. What a mean spirited thing to say so don’t believe what you hear on blog sites. I just ask em to spell my name right it’s ins not ens. So get my name right. People have all these ideas about what happens. what happens if you hear a thing call me up and ask me if you get a blog site that says I did something like that. I took a pig out cut his head off an put it in a field and if there was frost on his nose I would know that God wanted me to do something That kind of stuff is actually said.that kind of crazy stuff is actually said so be careful what you listen to, your believers , and don’t receive things, and these people that are saying that about Chuck are just despicable it’s the absolute lowest form of animal life to do something like that. Even ummm if Chuck had done something wrong why would anybody rejoice in the illness of an enemy if they were an enemy Christians we are suppose to be praying forgiving lamenting…..”

    by Jeremy W. on Jan 17, 2012 at 11:31 am

  70. Well, I’m not a big fan of Rick Warren, but there is now Saddeback Anahiem, Saddelback Irvine, Saddleback San Juan Capistrano. In fact, Laurie’s son like Chuck Smith couldn’t compete against Rick Warren anyways. Calvary Costa Mesa is about 3,000 fewer members today than in 1993 not suprising since the demogrpahics of the place has changed a lot. A book show CCM around 12,000 in the 1990′s now down according to a survey on mega-churches around 9,500. So, all this stuff about Chuck wanting to put curses on Laurie’s son is exaggerated and I not the biggest fan of Chuck Smith either. All Calvary Chapel Costa is going to get smaller not bigger as time goes by just as the Robert Schuller Churchy got smaller. In fact, Schuller’s church was sold to the Roman Catholics and only the Spanish speaking part of the church grew. OC is not the white man’s county it was about 40 years ago which means trouble with Calvary Chapel’s if they can’t attract some hispanics and asians, this is why Raul Ries has more people attend his Calvary Chapel than Chuck Smith’s.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 18, 2012 at 6:07 am

  71. Thanks for that info Jeremy W.

    That paragraph makes my skin crawl. I can picture him peacocking around the stage, while his faithful nod their heads to everything he says.

    “I took a pig out cut his head off an put it in a field and if there was frost on his nose I would know that God wanted me to do something” What the heck is he talking about with the pig head? I wonder what site he is quoting.

    Is there another site besides this one and the OCWeekly, pounding on about Chuck’s evils while he expires?

    by Not Alone on Jan 18, 2012 at 7:18 am

  72. John:
    We the co-elders of the Shiloh Ministry, find it necessary to confront you with a protest in regard to the way you have in the past, and at the present time, pastored this ministry. We find no other solution to the serious problems that exist, than to ask you to resign from your position and repent to the body ministry for the sins of lordship over the flock, mismanagement of funds, respect of persons, stubbornness, sowing discord and false teaching. The Bible gives us this power throughout the New Testament by stating in I Timothy 5:19 & 20 that we have the power to accuse you and rebuke you “before all.” We will do this if you do not receive this rebuke of the Holy Ghost.
    You have established yourself as an Old Testament King with absolute power, refusing the counsel God has established. You have strayed from the scriptures in this belief, and due to your delusion of exclusive power, have meticulously sought to use unscrupulous political manuvering to force us out and to pit us against each other causing much confusion, which is not of God (I Corinthians 14:33).
    We resist you in Jesus’ name, with clear conscience in Him that we are not in rebellion, but rather in obedience to God’s word being faithful to the responsibi1ity to God’s people of this ministry to protect them.

    We wil1 spare you the embarrassment of exposing specific evidence of your neglect of the flock (your immediate neglect–us–as well as the rest of the body), and erratic behavior manifested in so many ways: paranoia, to financial and spiritual elevation of yourself to the point of being lord over God’s flock (I Peter 5:3).
    We are not confronting you with specific incidents or occurances so that you might spare yourself the shame, but hope and pray that you will not resist God’s Spirit. We are ready, should you resist, to take all these specific details to the whole body (Luke 12:3, “proclaimed upon the housetops”). At the same time you are reading this in our presence, the people are simultaneously being notified in the houses and fellowships of our actions and feelings. They are being encouraged to support this stand.

    We have anticipated your retaliation and by God have been instructed what actions to take. We warn you, that our view of your unscriptural ruling and erratic governing of this ministry is shared by many people in responsible positions, both in the houses, fellowships and staff people.

    We await your repentance in response to this rebuke, and pray that God will give you the ability to humble yourself before the brethren and confess your faults. We also assure you of our love to you, which cannot be questioned because of our past 8-10 years of submission and support. Again, we are persuaded of God that we will accept no alternative but your resignation.
    Jerry Frink, Larry Pilgrim, George Bryson, Kevin Sweeney, Paul Schroeder, David Stewart, Ken Ortize and Dean Camarda

    by Not Alone on Jan 18, 2012 at 7:22 am

  73. John Higgins

    I received a phone call from Dale the other day telling me about removing the part about Jeremy Williams “getting kicked out”. I told Dale if I had miss spoke then I would remove it and repent if I had done anything wrong. But after looking into it the truth remains that it was a round about way to kick him and his family out. I just happened to be right where the Holy Spirit wanted me to be to witness what happened. Their is more to this than just that one incident.

    You miss treat the sheep that could expose Calvary Chapel. You don’t want the truth about you and the finances of the church to be exposed. So you do what you have to do to hid it all. That means hurting the sheep that you are suppose to be protecting. But your response it that you have to hurt the sheep to protect the flock. To single people out that want the truth is sick. THIS IS A SIN.

    If you are going to quote the blog get it right don’t stand behind the pulpit and lie about it.
    I know you do this to control people don’t look here don’t look their, but you can trust me and my blog. Where is the liberty of the sheep? How can they think for themselves if you constantly keep them focused on you? The focus should be on JESUS CHRIST not you.
    People come to church seeking God not man.

    I beg you to REPENT!!!

    Open rebuke is better than secret love Proverbs 27:5

    by Robert Livermore on Jan 18, 2012 at 8:52 am

  74. Robert,
    I posted a more detailed description of this affair here:
    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=72#comment-16540

    Please feel free to correct me or add more to my understanding of the facts.

    by JACK on Jan 18, 2012 at 1:11 pm

  75. To Jeremy and Robert, thanks for the info – John Higgins is the gift that keeps on giving! Our expose on John Higgins will air on 2/11 – Thanks

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 22, 2012 at 11:27 pm

  76. For those of you are in the AZ market there is another evil here (planted by John Higgins) it is Charlie Johnson and Chris Funk (CC East Mesa) Chris Funk is Charlies son inlaw and when he was the youth pastor he wanted to fix up Noah Johnson who was 18 at the time with what Chris called, “The hottest virgin in the youth group.” They found a young girl who was 13 at the time and they arranged what they called the, “courtship”. Terrible! When Chris and Noah where unable to keep this evil under-wraps and we began to use Mathew 18 – We were kicked out by Charlie Johnson. Calvary Chapel is Satan’s gift that keeps on giving…

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 22, 2012 at 11:48 pm

  77. Jeremy Bowling,

    I’ve been posting items on Higgins here also.
    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=72

    Looking forward to your JH series….. I’m assuming there is enough material for several shows.

    by JACK on Jan 23, 2012 at 12:47 pm

  78. @ Jack

    One of the things that proves to me that John Higgins is a flim-flam is he likes to have this persona of the New York tuff guy, rough and tumble, yet I have reached out to him and his son Jeremy Higgins 5 or 6 times and they will not respond. My guess is they will stone wall (CC 101) they hide behind the pulpits like the cowards that they are! They have no problem destroying people but when opposition comes to them – they turn yellow and head for the safety of their compound (under the desk) Oh BTW Jack, thanks for the info I appreciate it.

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 24, 2012 at 1:05 am

  79. Jeremy B, I’ll open a thread after your episode on John Higgins.

    I remember living on “the Land” at Shiloh at the Cult Compound in Oregon and John Higgins giving me a ride on his motorcycle. He got busted by the IRS later. Chuck Smith dodged any accountability back then, but was part of that mess.

    by Alex on Jan 24, 2012 at 8:13 am

  80. Very sad the roots of CC are so rotten. Men making a business at the expense of others suffering. Setting up kingdoms here on earth and letting their son’s take over the family business. This is like a christian mafia. How many more will get hurt and walk away and not say a thing. I think it is time to stand up and fight against the evils in Christianity. Many men stood silent as the Nazi’s took over Germany and killed many innocent people. What kind of man would stand around and remain silent? I think that the time is here to stand up for what is right. Jesus stood up to the pharisees and we to should stand against this present day pharisees.

    God Bless

    by Robert Livermore on Jan 24, 2012 at 8:52 am

  81. RE: Jeremy Bowling @ #76:

    Do they get 72 virgins in heaven if they ‘re martyred in the service of the Lord?

    by Muff Potter on Jan 24, 2012 at 1:36 pm

  82. Hello!

    Just stumbled upon your blog and had to comment as I have gone to several Calvary Chapels over the years (Costa Mesa, Napa, Santa Rosa, Sonoma) and was even living in Costa Mesa in 1976 when I got saved after watching a 700 Club tv program.

    My testimony tells how the Lord woke me up in 2005 while living as a missionary in Berlin, German, to the many shocking deceptions I was believing about the apostate church in general : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANm1qNoBFAQ&feature=channel_video_title

    One of the main things today that keeps me out of most churches is their 501(c)3 status which says they submit to the government before God: http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/search?q=501c3

    Also what keps out of any Calvary Chapel is their pre-trib rapture teaching which is error and not found in scripture: http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html

    One disturbing discovery I read was that Chuck Smith knowingly took illumanti money according to John Todd: http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/2010/12/charismatic-movementcalvary.html
    True? At this point, it would not surprise me.

    In any case, my continued prayer is that the Truth be revealed, the lies be exposed, the deveived wakeup, the sinner repent, the lost get saved and the Lord Jesus Christ be glorified.

    Thank you!

    blessings from Florida,
    Cathy

    by Cathy on Jan 24, 2012 at 7:02 pm

  83. I have not posted here before. But I want to warn people who live in the Madison, Wisconsin area to avoid the Calvary Chapel that is located there. I am not the only one — there are many more who could provide the same warning.

    Thankful for this site.

    by Anonymous on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:57 pm

  84. Hi Cathy @ 82. I went to the first link and found your personal testimony compelling. I had also learned a lot about the NWO, etc all the things you talked about around 10 years ago and have also come full circle…the Lord Jesus is in control.

    Ironically, I learned most of the things about the NWO, etc by listening to Chuck Missler and a Calvary radio station who had many guests on, esp. remember Gary Kah.

    There is a lot of deception out there, that is certain. I am so grateful to Alex and this website for warning people of bad churches.

    Anonymous @83. Thanks for the warning.

    by Sue Hill on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:47 pm

  85. “One disturbing discovery I read was that Chuck Smith knowingly took illumanti money according to John Todd”

    I don’t buy it,

    by Doug Gilliland on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:12 am

  86. I don’t buy that Chuck Smith taking illumanti money either. Chuck Simith in some ways might be a better saint than some saints for example the Orthodox Church-Justinian and Theodora are saints in Eastern Orthodoxy and some converts are shocked if they have read the secret history. We have some orthodox complain about US foreign policy but old Justinian’s reconquest of Italy was a long drag out war and the Lombards took a good chunk. of Italy 3 years after his death Justinian and Theodora were at least concern about child prostutuion but favored the Blue Circus factions and let them off the hook sometimes when they commited crimes according to Procopius and Evagrius Scholatius and the Nika riot killed 30,000 people. Justinian did gave us St Catherines which was fortified and one of the oldest bible manual scripts was preserved there until the 19th century-Codex Siniticus.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:32 pm

  87. Personality I think Calvary in the long term will profit from Chuck’s death like Vineyard did with Wimber’s death. Basically it doesn’t have to have certain views as much and maybe the Moses model may go out of style.Calvary outside of California and some other states is not a big movment. Almost a third of the Calvary Churches are in California and California is a state that has changed in demographics faster than other states. CC has some hispanics like Raul Ries which will attract them since hispanics mainly Mexican are now 5o percent of the Stater’s birth. Look at Reobert Sculler which was big in OC from the late 1950′s to recently when his Church had to be sold. RIck Warren is the style now for the modern evangelical church in Calif. Personality, I think Warren is boring but no scandal as far as I know.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 26, 2012 at 6:13 pm

  88. Personality, most of us are not like Cornie Ten Boom was. Cornie Ten Boom was someone a lot of Protestants and I believe even Catholics would say was a good Christian but she herself admitted the brutality of the Nazis cause her to hate them with a passion sometimes.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 26, 2012 at 6:18 pm

  89. Well I can tell you one thing about Rick Warren is that his Purpose Driven is Purpose Drivel.
    Just a year ago he courted Dr. Oz and Dr. Hymen ( who are New Ageists )- had them speak in his church about health and meditation. Had his congregation do what was called the Daniel Plan (which was a health plan); also told his congregation that good health was mandated by God. There is a lot more on Rickie boy, like his tree legged stool peace plan. Was a speaker at Davos (actually heard him speak on you tube) talking about how the world through the church needs to submit to a world peace plan- sounds NWO to me.

    by FG on Jan 26, 2012 at 8:07 pm

  90. three-legged stool plan- oops

    by FG on Jan 26, 2012 at 8:08 pm

  91. I mean three-legged stool plan. oops

    by FG on Jan 26, 2012 at 8:10 pm

  92. RE #87
    Cynthia,
    I have not heard of Rick Warren having any scandals…….. other than not being Christian.

    Warren is an OCCULTIST.
    Warren’s favorite Bible version is THE MESSAGE, which renders ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN as:
    AS ABOVE SO BELOW.
    Simply google: AS ABOVE SO BELOW, then hit images.
    It may be the MOST POWERFUL phrase in the occult.

    Now, regoogle the phrase but add TREE…. again hit images.
    Notice anything interesting?
    LIke maybe…. THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE book cover tree?

    I listened to a SATANIST once explain the meaning of DO WHAT THY WILL SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW.
    This fellow got to telling how that THY WILL was about FINDING YOUR PURPOSE!
    As the guy kept expounding on “FINDING YOUR PURPOSE” one could not help but think, “This could be Rick Warren speaking!”
    I thought, “This could be my daughter’s pastor speaking!”

    Truth is, if you begin a study of the occult you’ll quickly know that RW is an occultist without even hearing the scuttlebutt.
    Like that he was discipled by Robert Schuller, therefore, obviously, a member of some secret society.

    by Jack on Jan 26, 2012 at 10:14 pm

  93. “Personality I think Calvary in the long term will profit from Chuck’s death like Vineyard did with Wimber’s death. Basically it doesn’t have to have certain views as much and maybe the Moses model may go out of style.”

    Not so sure. There’s some really big differences. Wimber may have been the center of the movement at one point but his many years of being ill with various problems (heart, cancer) led him to believe he was going to die someday. As a result, he was prepared and moved into more of an emeritus role than the role of the active leader. He set up the denomination to survive him, The “Association of Vineyard Churches” was not completely dependent upon Wimber.

    Calvary Chapel is totally different. Unlike Wimber, Smith is content that CC will die when he does. I don’t mean local churches, but the empire will die. CCCM will still be a church, by who’s the central figure in CC in general? Association in CC is to Chuck Smith, not to a central organization. CCOF is quite unlike the AVC.

    by Doug Gilliland on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:24 am

  94. Jack wrote: “Warren is an OCCULTIST. Warren’s favorite Bible version is THE MESSAGE, which renders ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN as: AS ABOVE SO BELOW. Simply google: AS ABOVE SO BELOW, then hit images. It may be the MOST POWERFUL phrase in the occult. ”

    Google “Jack” then hit images.
    The first two images show a demonic character.

    by Doug Gilliland on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:29 am

  95. I’m not talking about his theology Rick Warrnen but his private life. Personality, Saddleback style from listening to their services online is a turn off t me. He tries too much of a modern appproach and not much on the bible at least at the general services since he is trying to aimed too much at the unchurch.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:30 am

  96. you are right on that Cynthia and that is the problem with the whole church movement at this time- worldly driven instead of Christ driven.

    Doug, interesting on Chuck not caring if the CCs died. Why is this so? just curious

    Jack, it would not surprise me that Rick Warren is an occultist, because there was NO reason for him to have Dr. Oz speak at his church. Dr. Oz is a proponent of Buddhism, Hinduism and transcendentalism.

    by FG on Jan 27, 2012 at 6:06 am

  97. FG,
    Yup, bringing Dr Oz on is a pretty good indicator.
    But not much of an indicator for those CAUGHT UP IN the Hegelian Dialectic.
    If you are still a traditional you’ll see it…. a neophyte or a transitional will not.
    Of course Warren is also working with Tony Blair who has famously converted to Roman Catholicism and is full time involved with creating a super umbrella for all the religions of the world….. IE the RCC.

    Malachai Martin wrote of this plan over 20 years ago in KEYS OF THIS BLOOD.
    NONE of this is rocket science…. not even well hidden.
    But the frog in the slowly warming pot = the Hegelian Dialectic = Christianity 2012.

    by JACK on Jan 27, 2012 at 9:31 am

  98. On ‘The Death of Calvary Chapel” I think that two issues are CONVERGING that threaten the organization.
    1. Chuck Smith’s mortality.
    CC pastors are continually quoting Chuck, Chuck said this, Chuck said that…
    which has created a bit of a personality cult. Probably somewhat natural
    thing to happen with the orginator of a movement. But the CC movement’s
    Moses Model will make this ever so much more so of a problems when
    Chuck passes. There WILL BE a fight for control, just as there always is
    when a dictator (benevolent or not) dies.

    2. The Pedophile Abuse COVERUP Case.
    Contrary to what the CC pastors are telling the folks, this thing has legs.
    I knew nothing of this ’till I read about in on ccabuse. The lawyer working on
    this is the same fellow who HAMMERED the RCC with the Pedophile Priests
    If he could do what he did to the EXTREMELY powerful RCC then CC has a
    real problem. There appears to be real culpability on the part of CC leaders.

    When the can above gets opened there is no telling what will pop out.
    If the unethical hidden financial setups of many CCs is revealed to the public,
    that Skip Heitzig and company have thankfully illuminated, only the hardcore
    CCites will remain. People who have worked for years for FREE or nearly free,
    for assets fully owned by the pastor, will not be happy. Multiple lawsuits and
    perhaps even CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS may spiral out of the bitterness.
    Then EVERY CC will be involved on some level….. even the good ones.

    These TWO issue are converging.
    Some may hope that the passing of Chuck will alleviate the Pedophile Coverup, I don’t think that will happen.
    My hope is that the ROOTS of Calvary Chapel would be revealed in the miliea.

    by JACK on Jan 27, 2012 at 10:19 am

  99. Thanks Jack for your posts. They are very enlightening. Another thing I have heard about Rick Warren is from Jack Van Impe on his TV show. Warren has been invited to speak at some national Islamic conferences and promotes Chrislam – a supposed blending of Christianity and Islam…of course with the Christianity being subservient to Islam. Goes along with Tony Blair’s view as well of blending all religions.

    by Sue Hill on Jan 27, 2012 at 12:03 pm

  100. CC will collapse it is only waiting for a Sampson to come and push the pillars or to use another metaphor, the Babylonians have begun the siege!

    I would urge all to get out before this ship takes on more water. Lonnie is dead of aids, Chuck has stage 3 ling cancer and Higgins will be dealt with by my Lord. You see the CC elite like to say, “don’t touch the Lord’s anointed” that phrase is only in the OT and it mean to kill or to murder. And it was David who said about Saul (who was oppressed by a demon and was an apostate king – ie false power) let’s not touch the Lord’s anointed, or let’s no kill him. If these flim-flams want to use that analogy find by me! We will happily wear the title of King David!

    Also if you noticed the CC elite love to live in the OT, Lord’s anointed, Mose Model, Joshua Groups, David’s Mighty Men so on – They tend to avoid the doctrines of Grace unless it benefits them – anywho, if we look at the new testament we will see who the Lord’s anointed are – Those who are saved, born again, these men (who use the above mentioned terms) are not saved they are wolves (read John 10) so it should be no surprise to anyone – What is truly going on is this – The wolves (CC Elite) are touching the NT Lord’s anointed (the sheep) and their Shepard will rise and beat them with many blows.

    Hey CC elite, how long to you think that Jesus will allow you to continue to rape his bride? Another decade?? Another year?? Mark my words – He will strike you down you false teachers!! You white-washed tombs!! Look at what happen to Chuck Smith – He savaged Alex G and preached from the pulpit against him……stage 3 lung cancer…..I am asking out of grace for the apostates to step down before your judgment comes and it will come! Repent and believe so that you mat be saved from the wrath to come.

    I will say this (go and listen to The Death of CC P1 and P2 we called this about 2 years ago) CC is dead but no one wants to admit it! There is a new wine skin coming….

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 27, 2012 at 2:05 pm

  101. Jack,

    Hegelian dialectic- ah yes…..
    Start from a point of truth and slowly destroy it by inserting non-truths a little at a time.
    But the non-truths are hard to spot when mixed with truth.

    I heard that the RCC is again in trouble with pedophile issue and this one was concerning the Pope and what he knew ahead of time. I think there is some definite shaking up going on in the church- Thank you Lord and we pray that it continues.

    by FG on Jan 27, 2012 at 2:20 pm

  102. Just a thought, the Moses model…What happen to Moses and that 1st generation?? Anyone…They died in the wastelands between Egypt (type of the world) and the Promise Land. I think we should use a new model! The Jesus Model, let’s just repent and believe and read the bible and do what is says!!

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 27, 2012 at 2:27 pm

  103. Jack wrote “But the CC movement’s Moses Model will make this ever so much more so of a problems when Chuck passes. There WILL BE a fight for control, just as there always is
    when a dictator (benevolent or not) dies.”

    Fight who for what? Smith has set up CCCM to have a successor and nobody outside of CCCM is going to affiliate with anybody but Chuck.

    by Doug Gilliland on Jan 27, 2012 at 4:14 pm

  104. Doug, I like the Stewie logo too. Anyways, Chuck problems go back to his foursquare days not liking the foursaquare church telling him what to do. He like to do things on his own and the little church in Costa Mesa with only 25 folks gave him the biggest break in his life. I remember Chuck as a 15 year old in 1972 when a lot of long hair guys attending the place. I went to Calvary because two girls I got to know at the Melodyland Hot line went to Calvary when it still was a tent. Melodyland in those kids also appeal to a lot of people in their teens and 20′s that had drug problems. These two girls spoke at my high school health class in 1972 and I call them since I was a confuse kid that came from a non-religious family and thought conversation to Christianity would solved my problems but I didn’t realize its more comples than that. My favorite song of early Calvary Chapel was everybody ought to know who Jesus is. He’s the liily of the Valley and the bright and morning son.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 27, 2012 at 6:25 pm

  105. #100 Jeremy Bowling

    Amen! It seems guys like John Higgins and Bob Grenier found a good way to run a schem and call it the work of God. I don’t know what God or god they serve. Chuck Smith said “that if you live like a hog you will die like a dog.”

    I don’t think these guys get it or they just have too much pride to Repent. God knows the heart of every man their sin will be exposed. It’s time to put an end to the wolves butchering the sheep.

    I am looking forward to the John Higgins Thug-O-Nomics show.

    by Johnny on Jan 27, 2012 at 9:13 pm

  106. What strikes me is the main characters in Calvary Chapel are 60 plus, no young people among the most well known. Aging babyboomers like Greg laurie, Mike Mcintosh, Raul Ries and so forth. Chuck is 84 years old. Is Calvary might appeal to some young people but its style is middle aged or older basically.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 27, 2012 at 10:37 pm

  107. Yes cynthia…what began as a culturally sensitive movement, eventually drifted into a ‘brand’ identity; casual dress, hip contemporary music style, stripped down worship setting, no traditional religious trappings just straightforward Bible teaching, etc. Now, from the outside, those Boomers look culturally out of step with the youth of today. Have you noticed the Hawaiian shirts are giving way to drab solids like khaki, charcoal and black T-shirts? That’s kind of a hip SoCal look.

    Cultural sensitivity is a factor to consider for some relevancy but if that becomes much of the focus, as it appears to be in many churches today, then church life will only remain superficial. Hip settings may draw people to an institution but Jesus emphasizes authentic relationships along family and intimate friendship lines, building his Kingdom in hearts not buildings. I am anxious to see the celebrity pastors demoted in this day, so God can regain the limelight these bloated egos clamor to keep for themselves.

    by Wide Awake on Jan 28, 2012 at 10:14 am

  108. Amen Wide Awake!!

    by FG on Jan 28, 2012 at 4:50 pm

  109. Well, Calvary Chapel is against a lot ot symbols and there are not too many crosses in Calcary churches mainly the dove symbol. Personality, I think protestant churches would look nice and might instruct the public more if we had some more religous art. My favorites are the late anquity art of Jesus as the good shephard in the catacombs. Jesus Christ was highly symbolic in the catacomb art and early reliefs in the 4th century have a breadless Jesus that looks Roman going to his cruxifcation. A lot of this is symbolic and people defintely would not consider a Roman looking young man as looking like the real Jesus. I have like the early mosics of Paul and Peter which may be closer to how they acutally look. The apsoltle art doesn’t mean that protestants are going toward the Roman Catholic or Orthodox position on the saints.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 29, 2012 at 8:41 am

  110. Is this where you find the brand that is Calvary Chapel in the Bible?

    Deut.4:16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a GRAVEN IMAGE, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

    17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness OF ANY WINGED FOWL that flieth in the air, (emphasis mine)

    by Joshua on Jan 29, 2012 at 10:37 am

  111. well, about Lonnie Frisbee. I wasn’t involved with Calvary during the height of Lonnie involvment from the late 1960′s to early 1970′s, So I personality didn’t know him. Listening to some of the stuff on him on youtube, personality God could have use Lonnie even with some of his messed up problems. That doesn’t mean that either Calvary or the Vineyard didn’t have their problems. Lonnie wen also to Europe, South Africa and Brazil. Lonnie cliamed at Denver Vineyard where Tom Stripe was pastor that one time Lonnie in some sort of meeting spoke Portguese which he didn’t know and a gentleman that knew the language stated he spoke about God’s judgment and Lonnie later went to Brazil. Personality how bad Lonnie homosexual behvavior was over a time period I don’t know since there a lot of different stories.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 29, 2012 at 11:19 am

  112. Anyone know why Tom Stipe went from Vineyard to Calvary Chapel to Crossroads Church of Denver? Is he a guy to be wary of? I have an anecdotal story and the person who told me was kind of flaky themselves, so not sure I’d want to share at this time unless someone really knows something concrete.

    Internet says he was at a 2008 Calvary Pastor’s conference, so is he still affiliated in some way with CC?

    by Sue Hill on Jan 30, 2012 at 11:15 am

  113. Tom Stipe went from CC to Vineyard and back to CC. His church name is Crossroads but he is a CC affiliate and doing great work in Denver. Good teacher, great guy. Also one of the best musicians anywhere!

    by not Tom Stipe.... on Jan 30, 2012 at 2:25 pm

  114. Jeremy Bowling @100
    You wrote
    I will say this (go and listen to The Death of CC P1 and P2 we called this about 2 years ago) CC is dead but no one wants to admit it! There is a new wine skin coming….

    I appreciate the work you are doing in calling the CC elite to repentance. I am concerned that CC is going completely emergent with pluralistic doctrine and this will be a fake (new wine skin) that embraces liberalism as the more friendly face of CC. With CC’s reputation of being abusive, most likely CC will cloak the abuse in a new liberalism and this is what I see happening. Abuse and heresy seem to be two sides of the same apostasy.

    by Andrew on Jan 30, 2012 at 6:17 pm

  115. Well, the strong prohibtion against graven images in the old testment is that the Jews made copies of the pagan gods around them. William Devar archelogists found hundreds of these images. By New Testment time, the earliest symbols were fishes, anchors and so forth. The earlierst Jesus Christ doesn’t look like modern piictures Jesus doesn’t even have beard and looks a shephard boy with a tunic. Also, there is a picture of Jesus in one of the oldest churches where he is healing the woman of her infirmity also no beard and clothing in a tunic.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 30, 2012 at 6:45 pm

  116. Re: Sue @ 112

    The abuses in Tom Stipe’s church are well known. Lots of refugees. Several well known large exoduses over the years. He’s done a lot to be respected, but the closer people get to the leadership the more they say they get burnt. At least, the stories have been consistent for many years … going all the way back to the Vineyard days.

    From what I can tell, it’s the same ole same ole that many CC pastors seem be either trained to rule as a despot, or they started out as a novice and never develop wise, patient, and humble leadership skills.

    I’d love to hear that Stipe has changed, matured, but unless these guys actually take a break from CC and see leadership/being a shepherd in a new light, I guess I have my doubts it’s possible to really change as much as they need to.

    by Grateful on Jan 30, 2012 at 9:11 pm

  117. New liberalism some say that about Rick Warren. I always wondered how Warren is succssful These days he’s lost weight and looks just like a middle age man. Warren in spite of what people think of him is well organized, plant a new church in New York city or Boston that bears his philosophy not his church name. A more regular white church in Anahiem with some asians and hispanics threw in., and also a Spanish speaking one in Anaheim. Rick really aims for everyone while Calvary with some exceptions appears dated.

    by cynthia curran on Jan 30, 2012 at 9:21 pm

  118. Sue Hill, regarding Tom Stipe and Crossroads:

    Yes, Tom is a CC Affiliate and I think he’s an old Shiloh Commune Alumn as well (John Higgins’ Dexter Oregon Cult-like Compound where Bob Grenier, George Bryson and others of the bad CC pastors hail from).

    Full disclosure, I have Tom and his wife as FB friends and Tom is a regular at the PhoenixPreacher.net Community.

    I’ll tell you what I know and my direct personal experience:

    1. Tom is vouched for as (currently) a good guy by Michael Newnham and many others at PhoenixPreacher.

    2. Tom did some sort of audit/report on the Skip Heitzig Scandal and according to Michael Newnham, he did a good job.

    3. Tom doesn’t like me very much and has publicly blown me up at PhxP many times and pretty much lobbied publicly for me to get the boot over there…which tells me that Tom doesn’t like the CC criticism very much.

    4. I haven’t heard of any past scandals involving Tom and I don’t have him on my adultery list or molestation or child abuse CC list or Corruption list, meaning I don’t have any direct testimony from CCCM and CC insiders with Tom’s name on it.

    5. I am not saying there haven’t been authoritarian problems with Tom, sounds like from Grateful’s testimony, there have been some issues there (and from what I know of Grateful (the person is credible, IMO and has journalism experience etc)

    It is very possible Tom had some issues in the past in terms of being a prick or being a Moses Model type pastor…it is also very possible that Tom has matured over the years and has learned some lessons from the Skip Heitzig Scandal and all the other bad stuff that has come to light in Calvary Chapel.

    My guess from what I’ve heard from others, like Michael Newnham (who I trust), is that Tom has probably made some mistakes and has learned from them and has (hopefully) repented and learned something.

    Grateful, if you have specifics, I would be happy to approach Tom with them, though, from how he’s responded to me on PhxP, he’ll probably tell me to pound sand.

    by Alex on Jan 31, 2012 at 5:36 am

  119. Alex, I could come up with some specifics on both Tom and MaryEllen, that I suspect come from being put into the ministry as novices and trained by Chuck Smith. But the specifics I’m referring to have to do with Moses Model issues and outbursts of anger … typical CC issues. Leaders tell of how Tom had an outburst of anger and fired the whole office of many people in one day. I’ve heard it happened more than once. MaryEllen appears to have cleaned house in her way, too. I still hear about the pain those women experienced.

    I’ve never even heard a hint of sexual sin with either of them. I did hear of a large financial gift given in response to a plea from the pulpit for a specific purpose. I’ve heard many ex-leaders complain that the money was not used for that. I hope that’s been resolved, but don’t know.

    Tom has been quoted as saying, “To whom would you have me be accountable?” He made it clear that he didn’t think he needed accountability. He also had no elders, no deacons, no membership, no financial accountability or financial transparency.

    Tom and MaryEllen were billed as “Co-Pastors.” I know to some this matters, though in practice I understand MaryEllen works with women. Also, as I understand it, both operate as teachers, but do not really pastor people. At one point the church had some 300 lay leaders, but my understanding was that they were not trained and many issues arose, till finally the ministry was scraped.

    Crossroads is a church that is often referred to (by it’s refugees, including former leaders) as a parachurch organization, more than an actual church with community and relationships. As long as one is not expecting much more than to listen to preaching and to worship corporately, it seems to be fine. The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached. Tom did repent of his allowing false prophets into the fold during his Vineyard days.

    If one’s definition of a healthy church includes more than listening to preaching/teaching and singing, then it might be wise to do your homework and see if they have learned how to have community with real pastoring happening within smaller groups. You might want to see if they have added any accountability for their finances, and for the pastor/s, as well.

    I read Tom’s response to the Skip Heitzig issue and would concur that it appeared to be fair and well done.

    I want to add that I believe MaryEllen pursued a degree from Denver Seminary and I applaud her effort to get some training.

    If I could make a wish, I’d wish they would take a year or two and attend a church that has healthy community and then take what they learn back to the CC churches. It’s really not enough time to really understand what it’s like to be on the other side, but I suspect it would be such a stark contrast from what they’ve known that a paradigm shift would take place in their thinking of how the gospel came, not only to reconcile us to God, but to reconcile us to one another. Our relationship with God is worked out through our relationships with others. This has to start in the church … even if the pastor is an introvert.

    by Grateful on Jan 31, 2012 at 5:32 pm

  120. Uh … sorry, I just realized I should have sent that to you privately.

    by Grateful on Jan 31, 2012 at 5:35 pm

  121. It looks like every pastor with this Moses Model, abuse of power, and money have a tie to John Higgins. John Higgins has had his abuse of power and money problems all of his time in the ministry which he calls the work of God. I don’t know who this guy thinks he is fooling. But his time is limited in the ministry he will be found out for scam artist he is.

    by Johnny on Jan 31, 2012 at 6:00 pm

  122. I sat under the teaching ministry of Tom Stipe when he was at Costa Mesa. He was not a kool-aid drinking Shiloh community member. We have a friendship although it not a close one. I am not familiar of how Crossroads is overseen, but I do know that Tom is an independent thinker and has expressed to me a great compassion and care for people.

    by nonamenecessary on Jan 31, 2012 at 11:16 pm

  123. I wanted to share with everyone who is frustrated with their local CC. I have had enormous frustration with the CC in AZ (East Mesa, Tri-City, Saving Grace, CC Chandler). I would like to publicly thanks Alex for promoting Remnant X Radio and I would also like to thank everyone who shares on the blog. A few things have come to light:

    1) CC Pastor fear this blog – Keep Posting (Right Pastors Charlie Johnson, John Higgins,
    David Evans, Rudy and Jim Remington)

    2) I have rec’d info our friend John Higgins that is, well, damning (thank you silent one)

    3) CC Chandler (who we have hammered on the podcast) is having members leaving in
    droves. They have lost their building (Pastor Rudy, I told you that this would be coming,
    you should of repented) I have emails from Rudy that are out of control that I will be
    sharing in the near future.

    My point being, don’t give up! I truly think that the death of CC is coming, their is new wineskin coming! Keep posting, keep praying, keep confronting!

    by Jeremy Bowling on Jan 31, 2012 at 11:45 pm

  124. Thanks Jeremy, it is good to hear that this is making a difference. I am looking forward to the Higgins story.

    I am also very excited about a ton of new Bob Grenier information that has come up. It will take me awhile to go through it all but I am confident that this huge stash of digital treasure will be some of the final nails in coffin of BG’s infamous long con.

    Bob, thanks for being so flippant.

    by Not Alone on Feb 1, 2012 at 9:02 am

  125. Well I just finished a meeting with the”silent one” and the John Higgins piece is becoming very fluid…Wow evil has a lot of moving parts. I am looking for help in locating Jackie Higgins or Connie Frisbee (Alex G got any ideas?) and I also am looking for a book called “Things I wish I Knew Before I was a Pastor” Larry Taylor. The amount of info that was given to me today and the leads that will need to be chased down is mind blowing! I should change the name of the piece to John Higgins, “Dead Man Walking”! I will definitely need to do a separate piece if Shiloh -

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 1, 2012 at 5:19 pm

  126. Well, in Arizona Robert Furrow is a good guy. He is of course the Calvary Chapel pastor of Tucson west and east. Tucson is spread out, and there is also a Tucson Calvary Fellowship, I think a Scott was in charge of that.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 1, 2012 at 5:26 pm

  127. I agreee in spite of what Chuck Smith has done people shouldn’t rejoice because he is ill. Its just old age

    by cynthia curran on Feb 1, 2012 at 8:54 pm

  128. Not Alone, re: #124, throw us a bone — arf!! I’m anxiously waiting for when these “digital treasures” can be revealed and hasten the end of the tyranny. Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia has abused too many, too long, and we yap for God to bring healing to His Church.

    by i heart sheck on Feb 1, 2012 at 10:50 pm

  129. @ Cynthia –

    Robert Furrow is the same as John Higgins! Everyone beware of Robert Furrow! Going to Furrow is like asking a demon if Satan is misunderstood. He is one of the bad guys. Let me put this way, my best guess is that only 2% of CC are Godly places.

    Jeremy

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 2, 2012 at 1:18 am

  130. You are right about the 2%. Right here in good ole’ Tennessee you can go to Grace Chapel CC and talk to dead people. Necromancy is alive and well in the Bible Belt!

    by FG on Feb 2, 2012 at 6:03 am

  131. Just noticed CCVisalia has changed their website once again. Not a very good one either. Must not be able to have a professional guy do it now. All of BG’s links to daily devotionals are down and I only see one up. Kind of a harder website to search things out. More links to CCCM. IMO, it looks lame.

    What Grateful said about Crossroads being a parachurch organization. Just what I was thinking about other large CC’s. Nice places to go to hear a very simplistic teaching of the Word, but really, I would just call them christian organizations. Not a lot of community because everyone is too busy keeping the wheels of the big corporation turning. Lots of good businessmen at the helm of these large CC’s but lets face it, you can’t run a successful big business by being nice to your employees (slaves). There’s no time to waste trying to disciple those who are struggling because you’ve worked them to death and they don’t even have time for their families. Oh, and let’s not forget that you absolutely, per Larry Taylor’s book, cannot be friends with any of your fellow pastors. Your too busy teaching the Word and doing who knows what else because you don’t have to tell anyone what you are doing. After all, your not really a people person. Just make sure that everyone does their job 24/7 and doesn’t rock the boat and your vision.

    What a shame that these men leave so many laying by the wayside in their quest for the big church. I really think that the best way to judge these men is not by the size of their church but by the men that serve with them. That will tell you the real story.

    by summer on Feb 2, 2012 at 7:29 am

  132. I have no personal information on Robert Furrow but I’ve heard complaints that Tucson CC has gone Emerging.

    by JACK on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:50 am

  133. Re: Nonamnecessary @ 122 said,

    “I sat under the teaching ministry of Tom Stipe when he was at Costa Mesa. He was not a kool-aid drinking Shiloh community member. We have a friendship although it not a close one. I am not familiar of how Crossroads is overseen, but I do know that Tom is an independent thinker and has expressed to me a great compassion and care for people.”

    Based on Tom’s public ministry, I think one could conclude Tom is an independent thinker. He did break away from CC to become a Vineyard, and then he did break away from Vineyard to return to CC. Some tell of a season after the return to CC as a time when Chuck Smith and Tom were disagreeing and the dove went up and down a few times. What that back story is, I dunno, but it suggests Tom didn’t just bow to Chuck, or at least didn’t do it easily.

    As for Tom’s compassion for people … it may be expressed in the fact that he had/has a ministry to people from the pulpit, but I’ve never seen or heard of anything that suggests Tom had personal relationships with people or that he interfaced with his congregation. The stories of those who worked for him, pastors and office workers from the 80′s, 90′s, and some later, was that he was not caring, aloof, and had a temper. I have no current information.

    If Tom went to Shiloh, I’ve never heard of it. The story told is that as a teenager Tom worked with Chuck Smith at CCCM in the 60′s. By the ripe ole age of 19, he married and moved to Colorado to start a church.

    Though I don’t have current info on Stipes, I do hope they have learned a thing of two and suspect they have. I think after the false prophets of Kansas City had their time in the Vineyard, that Tom’s eyes were opened to a lot. He directed his church to quit focusing on things like personal prophecies and manifestations, and get back to the Word of God. It was a radical overnight change.

    I have much respect for Tom for having the boldness to do that; however, for the people following him, it was akin to a motor home going 55mph and taking a sudden right turn with no brakes. To many it felt like a crash … without warning. The game rules changed overnight and confusion abounded. Many who had followed what Tom taught suddenly found themselves on the wrong side of theological issues and practice.

    My observation was that there was no elder/pastoral care to help the people understand and adjust other than listening to sermons. For many, even this much needed change, turned out to be a blow to their faith due to how it was handled. I’m not saying that handling this change would have been easy, but it goes back to a lack of community, lack of wisdom and age, and lack of pastoring the people.

    No one was empowered to do such jobs/ministry as one who has been vetted and given the title of elder would have been able to do. Tom’s stated philosophy was that elders are those who “eld.” Deacons are those who “deac.” But that notion doesn’t make the effort to vet people who qualify for the ministry so that others can know who to go to, and that they would be available. There wasn’t enough community for anyone to know people well enough to find someone. Of those attending, in the 90′s, it was hard to find a mature person with wisdom.

    Though I have respect for Tom in some areas, and he is a man who has preached the gospel, there are still many typical CC issues he had that contributed to wounding many sheep … many new and/or undeveloped believers who were stumbled to the point of leaving the church altogether.

    The fact that he was a novice contributed to many issues over many years.
    Tom was very insulated and even some leaders had no access to him. (I was on a leadership team that was unable to get a single meeting with him for 6 years. As a result we wasted a lot of money, time, energy, and effort of many people.)

    Our vertical relationship with God is worked out through our horizontal relationship with others. My experience and observation of CC’s typical culture (with the exception of one church near the border of Mexico in California,) is that the horizontal relationships are not valued, prioritized, or modeled by CC leadership. In fact, as the Larry Taylor book shows, it’s discouraged. This is far more serious than the moral failures imo. The failures are simply symptoms, while the lack of value and attention to working out our relationship with God through our relationship with others is more of the core of the issues.

    Maybe someone else can articulate this better than I am able. Truth is, I don’t really think CC pastors will understand that the way their church community is designed actually impedes horizontal relationships. Back in the day, I too, would have defended CC; but I’m older now and hindsight says otherwise. The sheer amount of refugees from Crossroads, alone, all along the Front Range is eyeopening. I have occasion to interact with many churches in the area and am still amazed at how many were from CC/Vineyard/Crossroads Church of Denver, and had to leave to find community, the body working together, to grow up, as well as to stop the bleeding for many.

    by Grateful on Feb 2, 2012 at 10:40 am

  134. GRATEFUL – I don’t think it should have been a private message…I think all need to know the issues with the churches they attend or are thinking of attending. Hopefully people in Denver are reading.

    To quote from the movie Left Behind, “Follow the money, honey!” If there’s no financial accountability, I won’t be giving to a church anymore.

    Getting lost at a large church with no real community…that’s how we felt at the CC we attended also…and of course, no financial accountability. NO, I don’t think just worship and hearing a well delivered sermon are enough for me in the Christian life. I NEED community.

    (and I think you articulate just fine – Alex mentioned you are a journalist and that explains it!)

    ALEX & JEREMY & unnamed others – praying Psalm 91 over you. LORD, please protect Alex & Jeremy & the others as they reveal what should be revealed. Protect their hearts and minds from the assaults that will and have come through CC pastors and the enemy and let your TRUTH shine as they expose what needs to be exposed. In the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST!

    by Sue Hill on Feb 2, 2012 at 2:06 pm

  135. Sue Hill

    Thank you for the prayer. This is a battle for the truth. I have seen the abuse of a CC pastor and I haven’t remained silent. We all have to answer to the Lord for all our actions and so do the pastors that abuse God’s flock.

    God Bless

    by Robert Livermore on Feb 2, 2012 at 3:52 pm

  136. Well, I don’t know Furrow personality just his sermons and some of his statements. There is always more than meets the eye. I have not attended Calvary Tucson since 2007.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:43 pm

  137. Well, I agree that morality issues, cover up issues, and organizational issues. Also competition with other evangelical churches to try to get the unchurch. Chuck Smith has to compete against Saddleback and Mariners churches in his own area. Saddelback and Mariners churches growing at Chuck’s expense. Rick Warren on the cover of time about 4 years ago and Chuck Smith in Life Mag about 40 years ago.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:56 pm

  138. Well, I think that the problem of several churches goes back to late antquity. Even Euesbius the church historian thinks that the great persecution of Diocletian and Galerius was that christians were backbiting and fighting each other. We have a romantic view of the early church. Most christians here blame Constantine for a state church. Sure, after Constantine a lot of nominal christians entered the church. But Churches like Calvary that complian about the church and state merging in the late Roman Empire have problems similar to those of culture christianity. Christians go to have sex sometimes in brothels after the Church was made legal and circus factions like the Blues and Greens had members that knife each other and had graffni that stated the Orthodox Blues and Greens. Modern Greece and Eastern Europe are descendants of this christianity and somewhat the Catholic West. Today in both modern Italy and Greece and eastern Europe a lot of prostitution mainly girls marketed from Eastern Europe. Now protestants of antibapists against infant bapistism also have some sex problems and money problems like Calvary Chapel and one pastor sought out a prostitution.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:15 pm

  139. Re: Not Alone @ 124,

    I appreciate your taking the time and energy to listen to others complaints. If the leadership of the churches had simply done their job and done this themselves, then leaders would not be in these situations today.

    I pray Bob Grenier, and the other CC pastors who are living in unrepentant sin will repent now.

    Recently, I’ve heard hours and hours of testimony from people who have been crushed by a CC pastor’s failure. He, like the others, got caught, denied it all, and then was faced with evidence of his moral failures.

    It appears he has feigned repentance since it’s been followed by actions and comments that indicate it’s not necessarily genuine. I pray he repents quickly and completely.

    What has amazed me is how story after story indicates that God has been supernaturally revealing information this pastor thought/thinks is secret; as well as how people have had very personal encounters with evil in the church building until the pastor was removed.

    It looks like God continues to reveal secrets that the pastor thought was covered up safely, including things he may have thought could not be proven; yet God seems to be dragging these things out into the light. I wonder if the pastor repents if God will then stop this public display of his deceptions, bold-faced lies, thefts, moral failures, etc… Seems like it’d be worth a try, since hiding this stuff obviously doesn’t work, not to mention it’s GOD we’re dealing with here. This is where we ought to FEAR HIM!

    by Grateful on Feb 2, 2012 at 11:12 pm

  140. Grateful,
    “What has amazed me is how story after story indicates that God has been supernaturally revealing information this pastor thought/thinks is secret;……..”

    I perceive that you know of what you speak.

    What is so very very apparent is that these pastors have NO FEAR OF GOD… NONE!
    The implications of this one thing are huge.
    Jesus talked about pastors and categorized them as either shepherds, hirelings, or wolves.
    Where do wolves stand with the Lord?
    If a pastor repeatedly steals large sums of money, fakes miracles, lies, lies, and repeatedly bald face lies to folks….. where does that pastor’s soul stand with the Lord?

    by JACK on Feb 3, 2012 at 1:26 am

  141. Celebrity “Christians”
    What tragedies have happened in the life of the Church and in individual lives, because that exhortation has not been followed! Here is what is now called a “star turn”, a marvellous convert and the temptation is to put him right into the front at once. The result often is that he is ruined! He becomes proud of his past sin; he begins to boast about his past evil life because it makes him important! Do not promote a novice, says the Apostle, for if you do, the devil is certain to trap him. Keep to this rule.
    Martyn Lloyd-Jones (The Christian Warfare)

    Much of the root of our problem here. When I was in my late 20′s, my church was considering me as an Elder. The lead Elder took me to breakfast to ask me some questions face to face. We had a nice visit and at the end he wisely said, “I want to see how you raise your children before I consider you for church leadership.” I have respected his wisdom all my life. He knew that a man’s household speaks volumes about the character of the man.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 3, 2012 at 6:51 am

  142. Ladies and gentlemen…there is a stench in Visalia at CCV, and it’s fumes can be traced back to bob grenier’s home. It is a trainwreck. The only thing that is nice in that home, is the expensive furniture bought on frisky outing to Orange County. When this story finally gets full validation, and every comment shared by Alex, Paul, Tina, Edna, and other refugees is proven true, you will find it hard to stomach the trash that lies below the surface of this despicable man who calls himself a pastor.

    You have all read of some pretty sick things regarding senior pastor actions on here. bob grenier is the poster child on how to fleece a flock. He is a master deception artist, and people who know him well can substantiate that. He is going to fall fast…and hard. I wish all of you could see what is mounting against him now. You would be shuttering in your shoes to think that you would ever think you could ‘Con’ God and get away with it.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 3, 2012 at 7:07 am

  143. Let’s not forget who trained Bob Grenier he is the master of manipulating people, abusing the flock, covering up lost funds in the church, fleecing the church, ect….. John Higgins!

    by Johnny on Feb 3, 2012 at 8:27 am

  144. “Saddelback and Mariners churches growing at Chuck’s expense. Rick Warren on the cover of time about 4 years ago and Chuck Smith in Life Mag about 40 years ago.”

    People have long liked mega churches where they can be anonymous.

    by Doug Gilliland on Feb 3, 2012 at 12:59 pm

  145. John Higgins….9 days until thug-o-nomics – Let’s touch the Lord’s anointed and see what happens – Your friends at Remnant X Radio!

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 3, 2012 at 1:16 pm

  146. Not Alone and Wide Awake, we’re dyin’ here!! How soon will these new evidences be revealed and acted upon? I know, it’s all in God’s timing, but can you give a hint if you have any idea when that might be?

    The mainstream media has been far too quiet on this, considering how eerily similar it is to the cases at Penn State, Catholic priests, etc. Sheckypoo, can you give us an update on the the Kosnoff lawsuit? I anticipate a media blitz when that story breaks, but I hope it happens sooner.

    Podcasters and Alex, you have my utmost respect for keeping up the good fight despite dark opposition. Praying protection and strength for you and your families.

    Below is my Dream Team (revised) for the cast when all this goes to the Big Screen:
    Alex — Gerard Butler
    Amy — Natalie Portman
    Chuck — Ben Kingsley
    Sheck — Michael C. Hall
    Paul — James Franco
    Tina — Julia Roberts
    Chuck’s Lawyer — Jennifer Connelly
    Bob — Phillip Seymour Hoffman

    Undecided on the other key players.

    by i heart sheck on Feb 3, 2012 at 5:00 pm

  147. Re: Wide Awake @ 142 said,

    “I wish all of you could see what is mounting against him now. You would be shuttering in your shoes to think that you would ever think you could ‘Con’ God and get away with it.” (in reference to Bob Grenier)

    WOW!

    Since I’m presently watching the secrets unfold of a CC pastor who had much under wraps for a long time, lived high on the hog, isolated himself, and it appears that he became so self-deceived that he thought he was able to keep up the facade even after it all started unfolding … I am understanding what you are saying about Bob Grenier a little more than normal.

    People here are simply stunned! Some still can’t even believe it, while others knew something was terribly wrong for a long time. No accountability, control of the money, and the freedom to go unchallenged affords CC pastors (or anyone in such a position) the ability to descend to great depths of sin. When I say people here have encountered evil, I am understating my point.

    We help our brothers and sisters in Christ when we nudge them back on course while the issues are still small. We hurt our leaders when we do not question them, or provide them with boundaries.

    This whole notion of having an efficient leadership model so a pastor can “follow the Holy Spirit’s leading” is bogus. I propose that God works through people; and the way that working with a plurality of leaders slows the process IS for our own good.

    by Grateful on Feb 3, 2012 at 6:30 pm

  148. I vote for Matt Dillon playing Alex

    by Hannah on Feb 3, 2012 at 7:49 pm

  149. …and Carl Reiner for Chuck Smith

    by Hannah on Feb 3, 2012 at 7:51 pm

  150. Wow…I meant Matt Damon!!
    Somehow that doesn’t look right either…well, its the guy Alex looks like that is in about every movie nowadays! OK. I think I’ll hibernate again…

    by Hannah on Feb 3, 2012 at 7:53 pm

  151. I can see that God is upset with some pastors. Greatful has some solid info on Bob Grenier. Jeremy Bowlings just recieved a mountain of info on John Higgins (Dead Man Walking). What will happen with all the old wine skin? I can’t wait for the new wine skin.

    by Johnny on Feb 3, 2012 at 8:52 pm

  152. Re: Johnny @ 151 said,

    “Greatful has some solid info on Bob Grenier.”

    I don’t have any info on Bob Grenier. I live elsewhere. My contacts don’t live in that area, either. But plenty of others who post or write Alex, apparently do.

    by Grateful on Feb 3, 2012 at 11:02 pm

  153. Re: Johnny,

    I think that the pastor I was referring to just sounds a lot like Bob Grenier.

    by Grateful on Feb 3, 2012 at 11:10 pm

  154. #125 Jeremy B. – Connie Frisbee is now Connie J. Bremer and lives in Auburn, CA. Area code is 530.

    by a little info on Feb 4, 2012 at 3:00 am

  155. ‘Not Alone and Wide Awake, we’re dyin’ here!! How soon will these new evidences be revealed and acted upon? I know, it’s all in God’s timing, but can you give a hint if you have any idea when that might be?’

    Not really. The allegations are serious enough to take to legal authorities. The blog is no place to air the details until it is documented and verified. Eye witnesses need to step up. It takes time to get things to stick to ‘The Teflon Man’.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 4, 2012 at 12:05 pm

  156. Below is my Dream Team (revised) for the cast when all this goes to the Big Screen:
    Alex — Gerard Butler
    Amy — Natalie Portman
    Chuck — Ben Kingsley
    Sheck — Michael C. Hall
    Paul — James Franco
    Tina — Julia Roberts
    Chuck’s Lawyer — Jennifer Connelly
    Bob — Phillip Seymour Hoffman

    Undecided on the other key players.

    —————————————————

    Alex is the director, right? Oh but we have to write the book first so people can read the book before seeing the movie! ;-)

    by hopeful on Feb 4, 2012 at 2:43 pm

  157. Thanks for the info on Connie, anyone know where Jackie Higgins is?? We are only 7 days away from thug-o-nomics. I was going through the pile of info that the silent one gave me. It really breaks my heart that John Higgins, Jeremy Higgins, Charlie Johnson, Chris Funk, David Evans and Rudy P and stand up and evoke the name of the Lord. It makes me sick!

    After talking Alex and the newest stuff going on at CCCM – Terrible!

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 4, 2012 at 4:56 pm

  158. Well Jeremy…it hurts to see all the hypocrisy but it is hardly unheard of. The Jewish leaders in Jesus’ day were supposed experts in the Law. They should have understood the Abrahamic Covenent made in Genesis that was traced throughout the OT. Yet they were the most brutal opposition to Jesus’ mission to usher in the Kingdom of God. If there is substantiated evidence that these guys are fakes, then treat them as infidels and stop expecting them to behave like legitimate pastors of God’s flock. They deserve to be exposed and run out of the House of God.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 4, 2012 at 8:29 pm

  159. It is rather interesting, after having seen Higgins sneer and talk about Benny Hinn being a charlatan, to now look at Higgins as being exactly the same as Benny.
    I think the paradigm has shifted though as some here have noted the population and dynamics changing in Orange County.
    The new wave to make money is the Emerging Church Model.
    The EC may not make ‘em into actual Christians but it will get you the numbers.
    Numbers = $.
    The CCs are half way there with their Moses Model so they just have to begin grooming their flocks to accept the new theology….. get them to remember when they were first ILLUMINATED.
    CC pastors are practiced and clever at this scam and some, like Higgins, are already change agents from the old days.
    Just needs to get ‘er done in time to pass the church on to the son.
    There really is no reason CC TriCity cannot continue as a good cash flow/revenue source for another 30 years.
    OH… I forgot…. Remnant Radio!

    by JACK on Feb 5, 2012 at 1:20 am

  160. Well, there is a lot of stupidly out there. Bart Erhman commenting on the codex sinaiticus which may be one of the oldest bibles intact-4th century stated the ending of Mark where the women go to the empty tomb and Jesus doesn’t visited the disciples proves there was no resurrection. Church historian Euesbius during the time period proves this is false, what nonsense. But people are unfamilar with literature in the 4th century to prove Erhman wrong. Granted, Erhman knows Greek a lot more than me but I know his statement is incorrect because Church literature of the 4th century proves him wrong.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 5, 2012 at 9:11 pm

  161. from Janette Smith Manderson 4:52am Feb 4 Update on Pastor Chuck (my precious Daddy): God has graciously brought him through three weeks of chemo with NO nausea or sickness. To God be the glory! Next week, the doctors plan to add radiation to defeat the lung cancer. Please pray for Dad’s continuing strength

    by nonya biz on Feb 5, 2012 at 11:00 pm

  162. #157 Jeremy B. – If you contact Connie she may know where Jackie H. is. Connie is in contact with lots of people.

    by a little info on Feb 6, 2012 at 1:51 am

  163. Serious, there are a lot of people that have never hard of Calvary Chapel. Calvary Chapel is sitll mainly in Ca, Az, Fl, and some western states, and some eastern states PA, Ny. Its not as heavily in Tx since there is a lot of Church brands there like Joel Osteen and so forth., In International locations Calvary is tiny about 2 churches in all of Italy and about less than a 100 people in that country. So, why they would make a movie about a church that the genreral public wich may not be into evangelical ciricles I don’t think so.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 6, 2012 at 5:51 am

  164. “I know a number of Christians who have a universal answer to all questions. It does not matter what the question is, they always say, “Pray about it”… Before we can pray truly, we must think spiritually. There is nothing more fatuous than glib talk about prayer, as if prayer were something which you can always immediately rush into.”
    Martyn Lloyd-Jones (Faith on Trial)

    The history of the Church has many sound spokesmen who have counseled and reasoned from scripture in far deeper ways than the ‘Bible Lite’ crowd we have become accustomed to since the Sixties. Preaching today is nothing like it was a century or two ago.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 6, 2012 at 6:56 am

  165. Janette Smith Manderson

    We are all quite concerned for your father. He is no enemy in this crisis. I reserve my hatred for the Evil One who has deceived so many in this day. May your father finish well and be humble enough to admit fault and seek every avenue for reconciliation. All the doors are not as shut as he seems they are. Best to your family.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 6, 2012 at 7:01 am

  166. Just to clarify, my update was a forward.I thought those that read here and were praying in a positive way for Chuck might like to know.

    by nonya biz on Feb 6, 2012 at 8:45 am

  167. I will pray for Chuck, not perfect myself either.

    by cynthia curran on Feb 6, 2012 at 5:40 pm

  168. Just a comment – I know there are Christians who have gone through chemo and suffered from nausea and vomiting. I know non Christians who have gone through chemo without nausea and vomiting. Many children have suffered going through chemo. Certain chemo drugs are more likely than others to cause nausea and vomiting, etc. I personally don’t think its good to say God gets all the glory if a person doesn’t suffer. What does that say to the Christian or child who does? That God is not going to spare them the pain? God loves everyone and his sun shines on us all. Did God decide to get Chuck sick because of what he said to Alex? I don’t think so. Is Chuck not experiencing nausea and sickness from the chemo because of God. I don’t think so. If Chuck doesn’t do well with radiation treatments do we blame God? I think it is not wise to think God is to blame or get credit for what happens during medical treatments. Some go well. Others don’t. Some people get well completely and others don’t. I think God is there for comfort for all and I have known people who were atheistic who became aware of God in their hospital room when they were very sick and felt comforted – that’s beautiful. For what it’s worth —–

    by sue on Feb 7, 2012 at 12:31 pm

  169. EXACTLY! Well said, Sue!!

    by Anne on Feb 7, 2012 at 12:39 pm

  170. Thanks anne

    by sues on Feb 7, 2012 at 12:59 pm

  171. RE: Cynthia #163
    I am not well educated at all but I can tell you that the Sinaiticus is an errant manuscript that was rubbed out, scrubbed out, written over, and more than likely very heavily influenced by Gnostics.
    If you discount the 15th century writing overs, IT IS older than any other manuscripts ….. but does OLDER make a forgery more correct???
    That manuscripts was conveniently “found” around the time of the Council of Trent that would be more correct if called the Council of the Counter Reformation.
    Coupled with the Vaticanus (sp?) it is essentially a very bad very much cobbled together GREEK version of the Latin Vulgate. When the Orthodox Christians fled Constaninople to Europe they brought with them the Textus Recpetus which is PROVEN to be the original Greek version through research of many thousands of letters written by the Early Church Fathers and other saints.
    These letters date to the FIRST CENTURY… to the first HALF CENTURY!

    Many many millions of Bible Believing Christians were martyred because they READ AND BELIEVED the Textus Recptus.
    NO Christians were martyred for believing in the Sinaiticus.
    The modern versions we have today ALL came about through the work of Wescott and Hort but you won’t find THEIR names in your NASB…
    Westcott and Hort had some sort of relationship with Madam Helena Blavatsky… now THAT I find amazing.

    In my view, arguing over what the Sinaiticus says about Jesus is like arguing over what Harry Potter says about Jesus…. irrelevant.

    by JACK on Feb 8, 2012 at 12:30 am

  172. This may not be the right thread to ask this question, but does anyone know anything about affiliation when a large Calvary Chapel acquires other churches and then “charges” them a percentage to go back to the one they are affiliated with? Supposedly it is to “use” the dove.
    It would seem to be a burden for the new CC starting to have to “pay back” the “original” CC. I understand they are not financially supporting them. If that is the case, why have to pay them? I also wonder if the congregants know that they are having $ taken from their tithe to pay another church that obviously does not seem to need this $, and where exactly is this $ going anyway?
    This confused me because I thought the use of the dove is authorized by the organization through CCCM.(Without payment) Now I understand that this particular CC is affiliating other CC’s they start and I wondered how this fit in on the whole topic of affiliation we were having awhile back.

    Any insight is appreciated.

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 6:04 am

  173. I’d like an answer to that too.

    We watched a CC pastor try to take a little church that was looking for a pastor and make it a CC. When the people would not agree to affiliating (due to lack of accountability in the Moses model,) the CC pastor lost interest in helping them.

    At the same time, the same CC pastor tried to start a new church nearby; however, planting a church in that area (that already had plenty of newly planted churches, along with healthy established churches) was basically a drain on resources and people.

    What is the motivation behind moves? In each case here, it wasn’t about getting the gospel out, the gospel is already there. It wasn’t about getting a church started for the Christians, there already are good churches. Is there a financial motivation?

    by Grateful on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:48 am

  174. Grateful,

    It seems some of the CC’s in the area are not affiliated with this particular large CC, yet are still using the dove.
    So would that mean that these churches(the ones not affiliated with the large CC) are getting the “ok” from CCCM, and the ones that are offshoots of the larger churches somehow “Owe” that large church some kind of “kickback”? If the large church is not financially involved with this church and they are so to speak “on their own”, why does this new church owe the other one anything? It seems that in order to have some kind of affiliation (maybe the larger church advertises for them) they have to pay 10% of what the church brings in seems like a steep amount. Maybe one church has to tithe to the other? How is this getting accounted for?
    I realize this is just info given by someone in leadership..maybe it is not all correct info from their perspective.

    And I also realize that most people could care less that are going there.
    Heck, who cares where our money goes. It is going to the Lord! (or some Lord).

    I have refrained from posting until driving by my old CC and seeing the multitudes of cars in the parking lot.
    All the unknowing sheep being faithful……

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:58 am

  175. Most churches are not interested in the gospel or the welfare of the sheep. The churches are businesses that are not accountable to anyone. The bigger the church the more people the more money the pastor has to play with. Their is no concern for the flock only their money going into the offering plate. They pastors do what is good for business.

    Just look at how cold the church is today. You may see a church with lots of cars and people but listen to what is being said from the pulpit very soft teachings or gospel message. You may hear that Jesus just wants to be your friend. But nothing about Hell or Repentance. May we see the truth for what it is the church is not letting their light shine, but slowly putting the flame out.

    by Johnny on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:30 am

  176. Johnny,

    I agree with you about the business aspect that many there are totally unaware of…and the watered down message…
    Hey, how did Joel Osteen get so popular?
    Surely not with a hell and brimstone message!
    Most attending these big churches, whether Osteen or CC’s do not really care about what we discuss here, and even if you told them, you would get that typical stone-cold look with little emotion.
    They don’t care about others if it means looking at their church differently.
    They don’t care where their hard earned money is going, because they don’t ask.
    They just believe they are “giving tot he Lord” with no questions asked because that would mean they did not trust their Pastor.
    They don’t care about an individuals abuse, especially when it doesn’t hit home.
    They have tunnel vision.
    They will typically say “No church is perfect” to defend any problems they hear about. Their church is their life. They live and breathe their church.
    I know many women like this.
    I have had many conversations with them and it is all the same.
    I am sure there are many there who love the Lord and love the bretheren at these places.
    I knew them..and then things changed when we needed their support.
    We would never get it if it meant intelligent evaluation of their Pastor/church.

    I am refraining from posting too much because it keeps the knot in my stomach and makes me relive my misery. And it is time to break the chains of the enemies hold on me.
    At the same time this information needs to get out, even if only a few happen to be brought here.

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:40 am

  177. Johnny and Hanna,

    Thanks, IF this is true, this might explain why John Higgins has been working to establish churches in the Midwest… money flows back to TriCity.
    This would mean that Higgins already has a number of churches in AZ to pay tribute, add some more in the Midwest and he can have a smaller church with a big church cash flow!
    Hey…. THIS IS JUST LIKE AMWAY!!!!!
    The only qualification is not having ANY FEAR OF GOD.

    by JACK on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:41 am

  178. Jack,

    It must be happening with a lot of churches.

    Maybe they are having webinars on the subject:
    “How to reap financial benefit from an affiliate church without even trying…and without the tithers knowing” :)

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:47 am

  179. OH…. don’t forget to listen to Jeremy Bowling’s Remnant Radio Broadcast this weekend.
    Seems this will be a very long Spring for the TriCity leadership.

    by JACK on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:51 am

  180. Well Hannah….
    Just think of it as an investment.
    If I own several MacDonalds, and I bank you to start a MacDonalds in your neighborhood, don’t you think I should get a little return on my investment?
    After all…. it’s JUST BUSINESS!

    What about the folks?
    They’re just CUSTOMERS….. are they not?
    How is it any of their BUSINESS how we arrange our BUSINESS relationship?
    The folks pay for their church experience so they get the PRODUCT they paid for… we get the legal proceeds from our businesses per contracted.

    by JACK on Feb 8, 2012 at 10:06 am

  181. Jack,

    From my understanding the “big” cc is making no investment in the “franchise”.
    Thats whats perplexing to me.
    Why does the “baby” have to pay the “daddy” back when the “daddy” aint payin’ to begin with?
    Unless they are paying to just be able to say they are an affiliate of ____…

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 10:34 am

  182. PS Jack,

    I was a proud “Customer” till the coffee burnt my mouth!!!
    (I didn’t read the warning on the coffee cup) :)

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 10:39 am

  183. PS Jack,

    I was a proud “Customer” till the coffee burnt my mouth!!!
    (I didn’t read the warning on the coffee cup) :)

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 10:39 am

  184. Good morning all -
    There is a financial relationship between CCCM and the other churches when you figure in the purchase and distribution of CC approved texts, tapes and chuch supplies, for bible college classes, sermon prep, indoctrination of new believers, etc through WFT and Calvary Distribution. Then there are the recommended pastoral conferences and retreats for the rest of the flock. Also all church travel for missions, cruises, Israel pilgrimages etc is highly suggested to be booked through Inspired Travel, owned/operated by CS daughter/granddaughter. So although big CC may not be making an investment in smaller CC’s on a regular basis ( except of course occassional loans for building bigger churches to favored cronies), the smaller CC’s are definitely investing in services and products that benefit CCCM and/or its ‘owners’.

    by Anne on Feb 8, 2012 at 11:47 am

  185. Hannah

    With the John Higgins deal starting churches in the mid-west money making scam. It is simple you have a 503-C and people on the board with John Higgins as the head. So you start a church or two or three the money starts rolling in. John Higgins will have access to the general funds so the money that goes to the church in the mid-west can now be accessed by John Higgins himself. Understanding the business of the church you need to understand the con man behind it. It is a scam for money and control. With the 503-C set up you can have the people you want on the board which allows for a bunch of yes men. Then the head of the board has the money in his pocket. It is fleecing the flock. No dove is given without a price. Check out who is on the board of the CC’s it is all a big spider web.

    by Johnny on Feb 8, 2012 at 12:32 pm

  186. Anne

    You are correct. Churches will have leadership classes and they use the Calvary Distinctive book by CS. So you are encouraged to buy the book and CS gets the money. Simple money making scam. It’s all a scam.

    by Johnny on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:04 pm

  187. Please read my posts again.
    I think there is misunderstanding.
    The big CC IS NOT giving anything to the smaller CC.
    They are not paying their rent/mortgage.
    The new CC is all on it’s own, however new CC becomes “affiliated”, uses the dove, says they are an affiliate of the large pappa CC, and has to give 10 % to the big CC from the tithes of the people that are to be going to this new church.
    That is my understanding..
    So it seems that the only thing the new CC is getting from the large CC is that perhaps the church will mention it, pray over the leadership, include it in their advertising, but other than that they are on their own.

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:10 pm

  188. Johnny,
    Interesting how CS’s distinctives usurps the Bible as the most important pre-requisite “book” for serving….

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:12 pm

  189. Hannah,

    Sorry I did not fully explain how I think this BUSINESS works.

    You see there are different models of doing business, and there is a very unique model that “business men” in Chicago and New York practice.
    Some call it being connected, others being a “made man”, I think Jeremy Bowling calls it THUGONOMICS or some such thing.
    John J Higgins is from the New York Irish Catholic community.
    John J Higgins, according to him, was a bit of a street hustler/punk/wise guy….. ’till he found the Lord of course.
    Higgins was the first guy under Chuck Smith.
    Higgins was before Lonnie Frisbee….. why he was THE GUY who introduced Lonnie to Chuck back in the day. (John dated Chuck’s daughter back then.)
    Anyway, Higgins discipled all these other early fellows through THE HOUSE OF MIRACLES AND SHILOH YOUTH REVIVALS back in the day.

    At this point let me be perfectly clear, going on the little knowledge I have, I do not think that Higgins was ever an Amway distributor.
    I just think he learned to do business in New York.

    by Jack on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:58 pm

  190. Interesting Hannah – all this with the CC and business. Even good businesses have a motto “the customer is always right”…. well that is how my dad did business and my husband did business. Besides the point, the church should never be a business and the motto is to be “the Lord is always right”. I find this all very sickening Hannah and Jack the more you guys spill the beans on CC. Hannah, I understand why you find it so hard to post.
    What I see too is that many of these smaller cc’s worship the ground that Chuck Smith walks on YET… they tell you they are completely independent of Chuck Smith.
    I frequent a blog about Teen Mania (Acquire the Fire) abuse and what these teens are going through “in the Name of Christ”- absolutely awful. So this is not only happeniing with CC- it is all over the “Christian” arena. The church has become a circus- a place where the clowns entertain and the sheep are fed to the lions.

    by FG on Feb 8, 2012 at 3:56 pm

  191. “The church has become a circus- a place where the clowns entertain and the sheep are fed to the lions.”

    …and the Pastor juggles while on a tightrope ;)

    I have always been hesitant about those Teen events.

    by Hannah on Feb 8, 2012 at 4:07 pm

  192. Anne and the rest. Lets deal with facts instead of specious suppositions:

    Calvary Distribuion is responsible for flooring inventory in over 400 christian bookstores,none of which would be there but for CCCM funding their intial inventory. Where does this happen in busiess?

    The Bible College whenI knew of it failed to pay for its use of the conference center so as to allow students two years in the Word for the whole sum of $4000. oh an the conference center tok the whole sum of $1000 per student for sixteen weeks of room and board at a resort no less. You couldnt even eat three eals a day at McDonalds for that.

    The conference center runs and chnages both CC churches and bon-CC churhes a pittance for using the center. cCCM recives no interest on its funding of the center knowing that to do so would place the retreat experei ce out of reach of most who would like to attend with their chrches.

    The pastors conferences…ditto. A whole $150 for eleven meals and lodging. Yeah, that a real money maker

    I could go on and no. Let me leave you with this. Your speculations recently de,an the purposes of thsi website. Tjat is not to say that many isues rasied on this blog have merit and have a place in the marketplace of good and reasonable discussion.but you folks are WAY out of lone here onmthis issue of CCCM and its finacial dealings with other CC’s.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:58 pm

  193. #192 Jeff Scheckstein

    You can try to deffend the scam as much as you want but you can’t hid it. Just give your money to your local CC and enjoy the circus because are a clown.

    by Son of the South on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:05 pm

  194. Libel has replaced asearch for truth and fair inquiry. Son of Sam..go back tobyour cave scam man

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:13 pm

  195. Sheck – no speculations here. You can afford to charge bargain basement prices for food and lodging when you use bargain basement labor to provide those services. Same way cruise lines can offer ridiculously low prices, meals included – volume and low overhead.
    I am not out of line regarding my statements. Unless I was hallucinating during my time on staff at the mothership and my experiences at other church plants throughout the country.
    JS, I know you have a long history with CC too and find it odd that you did not observe or were aware of the same things. Guess it is the same principle as a train wreck. Several witness can see the same accident and tell very different stories.

    by Anne on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:14 pm

  196. #187 “The new CC is all on it’s own, however new CC becomes “affiliated”, uses the dove, says they are an affiliate of the large pappa CC, and has to give 10 % to the big CC from the tithes of the people”

    This has been what I have suspected for some time. Set up just like the RCC. I wonder if there is a group inside CC like Legatus is with the RCC that make pilgrimages to Rome/(Costa Mesa) and deposits money and specified times?

    Could someone answer this for me? When a CC pastor gets his dove does he sign allegiance to the CC Brand by agreeing to the CC distinctives? If this is the case then are they not agreeing to church tradition and doctrines of men over the word of God?

    by Joshua on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:22 pm

  197. In Shiloh, near the end, Higgins did start having other house plants send “tithe” to the Land. I have never heard of a CC having to give 10% for the use of the dove. The only “costs” I’ve witnessed are the ones I mentioned above for books, tapes, etc. I could be wrong. About everythng. It wouldn’t be the first …nor will it be the last. A lot I was told and believed was true and would have sworn to, while drinking the Shiloh/ CC kool aid, has turned out to be wrong so who knows :-(

    by Anne on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:28 pm

  198. Anne

    Since I guess I could say I was a conductor of the wreck, I still disagree. Last time I knew, no one was forced into employ at the mothership nor were restrained from seeking better offers elsewhere when given the chance, including me. As to the cruise laborer comparison, those jobs are desirable given those folks aternatives where they live.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:44 pm

  199. Of course there was no “forced” labor, well not in the technical sense, lol! But you must admit using student and aspiring pastor labor at the bible college main campus does cut down overhead :-) The only “forced” labor at the mothership was probably under the clause “other duties as assigned” caveat which probably was more the bane of the assistant pastors than anyone else.

    Peace out.

    by Anne on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:55 pm

  200. True

    During the summer, students were given room and board and the equivalent of min. Wage credit toward cost of college.that did not fifure our to net minimum wage when I last computed it. M99 was fair given th cost of college. The way many aspiringpstors labored, I would have preferred higher room and board as the center would have come out ahead. Good news is most students served well and fairly. If any one as taken advtage of, if that is the standad of measure, it was CCCM and not the students. I think that is called ministry. Truth be told I always argued for higher tuition and room and board to charge students, but Chuck declined my desires every time. He did not want anyoneto say we took advantage of the kids or that any one teendesiring to atend at MHS be declined due to financial inability. That jerk!

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:09 pm

  201. P.s. Joshua

    I argued for twenty percent. The brand was worth it. I also expected half of that be paid to myself for protecting and building the brand.

    Do you alwways believe what you hear? Who did you vote for in 2008? Do yu believe him now?

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:33 pm

  202. Jeff,
    Good job of choosing your battleground issues.
    Interesting that your defense is centered around the bookstore, the pastors conferences and the BIBLE SCHOOL.

    The RCC has always made accessing points of indoctrination easy for the faithful.
    (As in Books, Conferences, and Schools.)
    Why?
    Well, totally dedicated FOLLOWERS… as in…. NONTHINKERS….. as in KOOLAIDE DRINKERS are a valuable thing to a movement made by men.
    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/jesuits-begt-jesuits-norman-geisler-veritas-calvary-chapel-bible-college/
    As you can plainly see, there are some …uh… well … Marrieta does have some similarities to the RCC way of doing things.

    ” Last time I knew, no one was forced into employ at the mothership nor were restrained from seeking better offers elsewhere when given the chance, including me. As to the cruise laborer comparison, those jobs are desirable given those folks aternatives where they live.”

    That says an awful lot right there Jeffy.
    I know you won’t get it so I’ll attempt to explain.
    Your statement is VERY similar to what EVERY slum lord says.
    Very similar to what every sweat shop employer in the early 20th Century America said.

    The obvious followup question to the above is…. THEN WHY CAN’T THE PASTORS WORK FOR SLAVE WAGES TOO….. just to show they are carrying the burden along with “the little people”?

    Your above quote very much reminds me of CS’s response to Alex and Jeremy on Remnant Radio a few months back.
    A LOT of folks were appalled at what Chuck said and how he said it.
    I’m sure Chuck didn’t get it and doesn’t get it… and neither will you.
    There in lies the problem.

    by JACK on Feb 9, 2012 at 1:24 am

  203. On a side note:

    Working my way through the taped conversions that were given to me concerning our friends in the Valley – To sum it up, Damning! It appears to be phone conversations, staff meeting with our friend from Shiloh and others (not sure who they are never heard the voices) I am amazed at how these me talk when they think that no one is listening (I am shocked that someone could sit in a closed door meeting with the gunsliger and record his conversation)….Sad! My guess is that (just my guess again I do not know their voices – John, Jeremy, Doug, Jim)

    I am working on getting these recording converted to MP3 format and uploaded for another show! More to come as we chronicle the gunslinger! Pastors beware there are folks in your church that will record you,,,,

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 9, 2012 at 1:37 am

  204. First Get Your Own House in Order
    “I do not listen to a man who tells me how to solve the world’s problems if he cannot solve his own personal problems. If a man’s home is in a state of discord, his opinions about the state of the nation or the state of the world are purely theoretical.”
    Martyn Lloyd-Jones (Life in the Sprit in Marriage Home and Work)

    This is good medicine for pastors like bob grenier. Check the quality of the home life before you trust the public comments.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:36 am

  205. I use the Murietta Conference Center cookbook all the time.
    Love Chef Lance’s recipes!
    He even includes Pastor Chuck’s favorite pound cake recipe.

    by Hannah on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:53 am

  206. Lance is catering mt daughters wedding. We remain steadfast and good friends. Sorry Jack that my views and facts dont fit into your theories and paradigm. I’ll go silent now so you can return to your tangency. As my contracts professor said in law school after what one of ourclassmates thought was a brilliant exposition…”interesting, but irrelevant…take your seat.”

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Feb 9, 2012 at 6:26 am

  207. Wow Jeff..what a coincidence!
    Tell him to make the Oriental Chicken salad with the peanut sesame dressing..
    It is always a hit! Used to make it for luncheons with the CC ladies at my home Bible study!

    Seven layer bars…to die for! (well, not literally :) )

    Mazel tov!!!!

    by Hannah on Feb 9, 2012 at 7:26 am

  208. ….Roast turkey salad with Cilantro Vinaigrette!! :) :)

    by Hannah on Feb 9, 2012 at 7:31 am

  209. I LOVE that cookbook! Use it all the time!

    by summer on Feb 9, 2012 at 8:51 am

  210. Cilantro vinaigrette dressing

    Macaroons on Sunday

    Butternut squash soup during winter retreats

    by sheck on Feb 9, 2012 at 10:13 am

  211. Sheck,
    As said……

    I could leave it there but…………
    Discounting the laities concerns was the sin of the Nicolaitans.
    I learned this in a Joshua Group!
    In fact I learned that THERE IS NO CLERGY/LAITY in a New Testament Church.
    (But in fairness, CC follows THE MOSES MODEL…. NOT a New Testament Church.)

    Responding and discounting me with a quote from an arrogant professor, again…. says a lot… and proves my point… you don’t get it.
    If Calvary Chapel CM and Calvarys everywhere GOT IT, there would be a chance of FIXING IT.
    This site would have been closed down LONG AGO by Alex if CS and friends GOT IT and followed up on what they GOT.
    Sadly, this is not the case.

    I would be surprised if anyone here revels in THE FALL OF CALVARY CHAPEL.
    These are all old Calvary Chapelites who simply had the blinders fall from their eyes and had the courage to not put the blinders back on.

    I do somewhat understand YOUR dilemma Jeff.
    I understand that you do not have the power to fix anything.
    The only thing you have the power to do is to use this site suck up to leadership and hope for a promotion.
    At this point you are even failing at that……….. because you don’ t yet GET IT.

    by JACK on Feb 9, 2012 at 10:53 am

  212. …….how bout Chef Lance’s “Humble French Toast” :)

    by Hannah on Feb 9, 2012 at 11:42 am

  213. Once again your facts are wrong Jack. I quit there over five years ago over issues. That on whole gave birth to this blog.

    by sheck on Feb 9, 2012 at 12:41 pm

  214. Jack, be careful mixing words with a Jewish Lawyer… Jeff is not part of the cc problem -anymore… Though he can still be problematic at times in general :)

    by once a cc guru on Feb 9, 2012 at 1:27 pm

  215. Once again you are wrong on your facts Jack. I left the mothership over five years ago over the very issues that have given birth to this blog.

    by Sheck on Feb 9, 2012 at 3:03 pm

  216. Sheck,
    If you’re no longer crew on the mother ship please disregard my comments that were based on that assumption.
    May the force no longer be with you.

    by JACK on Feb 9, 2012 at 7:08 pm

  217. Jack:

    Keep it up. I can’t stand the hebe myself. He drove more bible college students into poverty than Bob Grenier drives sheep from his church. Disregard Once a CC guru. Let’s tag team on wallopping that arrogant hypocite. He;s no better than us in Christ.

    by Max Marriott on Feb 10, 2012 at 8:57 am

  218. “The big CC IS NOT giving anything to the smaller CC.
    They are not paying their rent/mortgage.”

    Yes and no. Most no, some cases there are financial links in terms of money loaned. In the cases where there is money loaned there’s a vested interest in the status quo. If the pastor leaves and the church remains and money is still owed then they need to put a new CC pastor in place or loans come due.

    I can’t point to specific churches which have been loaned money but there have been some – not all – maybe not even many – but at least some.

    “The new CC is all on it’s own, however new CC becomes “affiliated”, uses the dove, says they are an affiliate of the large pappa CC, and has to give 10 % to the big CC from the tithes of the people that are to be going to this new church.”

    I do not believe this to be true at all. No 10% unless it is the terms of a particular loan document. Not a general rule that any money goes back to the mothership.

    Jeff can correct me if I am wrong in details.

    by Doug Gilliland on Feb 10, 2012 at 7:17 pm

  219. Jeff

    Do you know what John Higgins did with the money he took from Shiloh? Or where the money came from to start the Maranatha Music? Or how CS got rich?

    by Johnny on Feb 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm

  220. I’m curious as to whether there is a model for this sort of thing or is it wide open to whatever you can get an agreement on.
    Can ANY CC pastor use monies from one of his corporations, “invest” in another upstart pastor (corporation), call it church planting, and take a cut of the proceeds for a given amount of time?
    Since everything is wrapped up in corporations sounds feasible… is there anything in the distinctives to prevent this?

    I guess what I am saying is, does whatever the arrangement was at CCCM apply to everyone?
    Is there even a policy at CCCM to manage this or is it whatever can be negotiated with each case being unique?

    Surely Sheck can answer this…..

    by JACK on Feb 10, 2012 at 10:35 pm

  221. CC of Tehachapi had a loan with CCCM for its mortgage. Our pastor went home to the Lord, then because we did not want a CC pastor for his replacement, Chuck called me and another elder and said: “If you don’t have a pastor who is affiliated, you will have to change your name (of the church), and pay us the balance of the loan”.
    Two things: 1. Chuck does have control of who is a CC or not, and does “Pull the dove”. 2. He can call for the loan.
    Mind you, I don’t have cause for him doing these two things, my gripe is when he says he has “No control” over other Calvary’s, but in fact, does.
    I was involved in CC when there was one, (the 70′s), it is a shame that this movement of God turned into a movement of man. CC followers have come to worship God through the modern day mediator/seer/Moses/prophet. It is time for the modern day Luther to nail the “Thesis” on CC’s doors! I think CC Abuse is doing some of that now.
    While I am still on this blog, do people realize radio programs are typically on separate books than the church’s. Guess who gets the benefit of the monies recieved? Your guess is probably correct!
    Signed, Reformed Calvary guy.

    by Frank Selga on Feb 11, 2012 at 10:59 am

  222. Just added a entire page to RemnantXradio.com that is for Phoenix Area Abuse – Feel free to comment – Thanks Alex for the idea!

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 12, 2012 at 10:08 am

  223. Frank Selga @ 221 said,

    “Mind you, I don’t have cause for him doing these two things, my gripe is when he says he has “No control” over other Calvary’s, but in fact, does.” (referring to Chuck Smith)

    Along those lines, I hear that Ed Taylor is making public comments that indicate he’s exercising a measure of control of the CC’s in the Rocky Mountain Region to his congregation.

    My questions:
    What control does Ed have over other “purely independent” CC churches?
    By what authority does he have any say in the other churches dealings?
    If he has any authority, then why didn’t he do something in the last 3 years that he knew CC Castle Rock did not have a board?
    If Ed has any leadership/authority over churches in Colorado, why does his leadership stop at this region?
    Why stop at the borders of the state?
    Why doesn’t he have authority over Bob Grenier?
    Who decides if he should take over after Chuck Smith dies?
    Since rumor has it that he has wanted to return to California since he got here, is he staking his claim to leadership to take over the Mothership, CCCM and all of CC?

    If Ed Taylor is doing this, then who else is doing this?

    I just don’t see how Chuck Smith can convince the courts that CC are independent and he has no control? Is the mothership telling guys like Ed behind the scenes to take control so he can still claim he has none? If so, would this not backfire?

    by Grateful on Feb 13, 2012 at 8:13 pm

  224. When Ed Taylor and Dave Love showed up at Calvary Chapel Castle Rock to deal with a fallen pastor, the appointed themselves to the non-existent board.

    By what authority?

    Then they decided Dave Love would be the new pastor.

    By what authority?

    I’m not making any judgments about Dave Love, just asking how this took place? Who’s in charge? How do other independent pastors come in and decide for a congregation who their next pastor will be?

    The Moses Model lack of accountability structure took out the first pastor, yet he is replaced by another Moses Model pastor. The actual problem has still not been addressed.

    I hope someone wakes up and rewrites those bylaws. Add:
    1. Financial Accountability and transparency
    2. Elders and board members can’t just be fired for questioning or challenging the pastor
    3. The pastor can be fired … spell it out
    4. Board members should be named and able to be reached, especially after a church could go 3 years without one and no one knew.
    5. Decisions should not reside with just one man. Too dangerous! Unwise. Not NT example or teaching.

    by Grateful on Feb 13, 2012 at 8:23 pm

  225. I’ve watched this play out for over two years now, and it all just stinks. CC is a train wreck. Chuck Smith has his dirty hands on it all. And he does have the authority to bounce bob grenier out on his ear but he CHOOSES not to. No matter how you look at this, there are church leaders in the CC churches who will have to answer to many shady dealings, and that is a fact.

    by Wide Awake on Feb 13, 2012 at 11:24 pm

  226. My question is why won’t Chuck throw Bob out? Why won’t Chuck throw John out? It is strange…perhaps “Birds of a Feather”

    by Jeremy Bowling on Feb 16, 2012 at 12:57 am

  227. Is the devil ever working through you!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by Darcy on Feb 16, 2012 at 1:52 am

  228. I can’t believe how people are tearing others down I attend CCmansfield and we can question our Pastor Bryce, If you don’t like your pastor or church leave it and find another, remember we are all human beings we make mistakes. Chuck Smith is a good leader but we shouldn’t put them on a pedastool and expect them to be perfect we need to start taking planks out of our own eyes and stop judging. people get lung cancer people die in car accidents and people died young and old. we don’t know everything about God but that everything is father filtered, and that he wants us to love one another, so if you don’t agree just agree to disagree and stop gossiping people will find their way if they truly love God and the bible is there to be tested as it says “test all things” it’s a true saying Christian are so judgmental it’s a very sad thing.

    by Liz on May 20, 2012 at 11:19 am

  229. I guess after reading most of this I feel sad. It’s sad that people call down fire and judgement from God on other people from the pulpit. The hurts that people have experienced at CC’s is so sad. I posted on a few blogs to warn people about my bad experiences at a CC, but I also had to write my old CC pastor and personally tell him all I had said. I’ve told him these things before, but the attitude and infighting at the CC’s made me know there was a lack of hope for change. There is always hope with Christ, but these pastors need to realize their Divine Retribution doctrine, used as a very scarey threat against non-Christians and Christians’ sin alike is wrong. Otherwise we’d all be dead and wouldn’t need Jesus! I studied Communications in university, which I hated because I didn’t have the skills to decipher manipulation from truth- the pastors at CC told me studying rhetoric was basically not recommended. I felt it to be very wrong for a Christian to study these things because we were supposed to only focus on the message. But after my professors had to beat me over the head with the truth of propagandic messages (which made me suspicious at first because I thought they were just resisting the Gospel), I began to see some errancies in the interpretation of messages from the Bible read simply, verse by verse. What makes me really sad though is that I was also very paranoid about my professors and whether they were out to get me, and I thought many of them were. I was so caught up with worrying about whether non-Christians would harm me that I became very very confused and pretty much lost my mind. I felt I had a right to “be a prophet” like some at RMCC and do the whole Divine Retribution thing. But you know what, it was more scary to see how people in the world were willing to take up my “prophet status” and believe whatever slander I told them, just because I felt it. My pastor at CC tried to warn about being careful of prophecy, and this whole thing started for me because someone at a CC told me some true story about non-Christians in a certain circle’s lifestyle, and I could not shake the fear and paranoia that this might happen to me, I might get sucked in, if I was friends with any of them. All this to say, my careless tongue wagged and retold the story, thinking I was being spiritual in warning others, when really I think as a Christian body we need to start to consider the cost. Sin kills, and don’t we want other non-Christians in the world to know that there is hope in Jesus. They can feel good on the inside for once, and have hope for the future. I know I sound simple, but my desire to move away from bitterness at CC’s has come from knowing I’ve done everything possible to confess my own sin while there and also let them know that I don’t agree with their false teachings in some areas and it is affecting the church and others’ peace on the inside and ability to be a witness for Christ. But I hope we never forget hope for our Christian family. I think that this could all turn around if we all just choose to forgive and pray for our enemies. I’m glad this sight exists, don’t get me wrong, but the fighting breaks my heart. Please let’s remember to also pray for our enemies. I know that I miss my old CC families and while I don’t agree with the pastoral control, there was not really anyone else who would have taken me in like they did and try to protect me and teach me the word. God lead me there for a reason, and even though I had to leave and my life is in shambles, I heard a verse for me on the Christian radio station in my city that provided me comfort, and I hope that it will give you all peace in your hearts as well, even as we have all suffered. “…and we know that in ALL things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” You, my friends, love our Jesus, and remember that He is working in your lives to bring these broken shambles to turn to good. The lady on the radio said, “with Jesus, there is always a silver lining,” which was so cute!!

    So Jesus I pray that you will be with all my family here as we have laid out all our concerns before you. You know the truth, and you came be our rescuer. Please lead all of us to a place of repentance when we hurt others, obedience to confront injustice and perversion of the gospel message when we witness it, and let us always be comforted and near to You. Thank you for the Holy Spirit. Please help us to never forget the incredible cost you paid on the cross to free us from our sins, and always have love above all for those who are lost. Please give us the courage and words to reach out to them and love them, so that they too will hear how they can be free. Forgive me where I have failed to be a light and gotten caught up in my spiritual pride and all the lies I’ve told. Thank you that I could see the truth about where the Scriptures have been twisted so I don’t have to live under that fear and condemnation anymore. I forgive the people that, while well-meaning, failed to show me the truth. And I choose to still love and pray for them, and thank you for the people that wrote this blog. Please comfort their hearts that it is okay to expose corruption where the message has been perverted. I release all CC’s into your tender care to correct and guide.
    Love always,
    Justine Carla Klettke

    by Justine on May 28, 2012 at 9:21 pm

  230. I also wanted to add that sites like these make my already strong conscience too strong, and that certainly I know when we are hurt, our consciousness of others’ sins is also very heightened. So I thought I could add a few more thoughts. When I mentioned my experiences at church or school, in retrospect the offenses are quite minor. My “lies” were more like one speculative guess that had all the evidence in it’s court to believe, but I certainly could have held back my queries and not told a few non-Christian friends (who I always had to correct that this is just speculation based on suspicious looking behaviour). In the end, I have to say I made a good decision to hold back and see what happened. And warnings about sin regarding things from church people who want to prevent you from going the wrong direction can be good too, BUT in both these cases, how much better it would have been to hold my tongue/judgements to give people some grace and a chance for me to show them Christian love in both cases is ALWAYS better than judgement. Sometimes you can’t take back your words and actions, and with a conscience, you are left back peddling. So please, the grief of not taking the chance to love others as Jesus does and lovingly confront our leaders when we don’t like/agree with their behaviour is intrical. I implore you to try to talk to your leaders in loving tones with the truth, and give them a chance to correct you if it turns out that the version of truth was misunderstood. My pastors at my CC’s have always been the best to me in person, and I know our misunderstandings stemmed from my angered e-mail vents. Please know it is best to go to the person in love, and then if they don’t listen, bring someone else along, and I don’t know. I guess after I was so angry over everything, I realized I hadn’t done my digging to know what was truth or not. If you go to another church, you really might have the very same issues, and they might be worse. You will also bring a lot of hurt away from a lack of resolution, and that hurt makes it really difficult to move on because inside the problem may be things you need Jesus to heal and not external circumstances. Paul found this out when even after terrible situations externally and personal physical disability, he found true contentment in the Lord on the inside that was unshakeable. But if you do not have the chance to resolve things, please for your own sakes, try not to write on emotions when you may regret things you say. I dreamed about being left behind last night, and it was a very bad dream for the fact of when the Holy Spirit leaves the earth, it is not a nice planet to still inhabit. If you’ve ever watched a movie like “The Sisters” where people treat each other like monsters, you may understand the terror of using “pure intellectualism to treat a wrong”. Please ask the Lord to fill you with love and empathy for Chuck Smith- he is dying of cancer and suffering and please, don’t hurt him any more in his last days, because he has not been perfect, but he too loves Jesus. Also, he is a leader and the Bible says that God put him there for a reason and allowed him to stay. I love my CC’s and they’ve been very good to me, even after I told them about my vindictive blogging. The Lord knows that you are hurt by things that have been said, but remember, venegance is His… and we’ve all been down the road of trying to take matters into our own hands- we wreck our own lives and relationships by our sinful vindictive acts. So many people have been helped by CC’s…. I really know my deep spiritual thirst is fed there. I will suggest though, when something seems wrong that your pastor says, ask him about it in person. He may have made a mistake and would like to be corrected, or just was misunderstood. But I think when we let the anger build up we react poorly on both ends- because we’re human and angry accusations naturally provoke angry responses in a person. The pastors at my church aren’t perfect, but I know they keep trying to be loving to me. We don’t get that in the world. Also too, there is the heart ache of initially being a light to the world, and then losing your saltiness through sin- like a sharp tongue, writing things in a tone designed to take revenge, speculating about someone’s sins who just needs Jesus and love not more criticism, etc. You lose your reputation too because people secretly admire someones with demonstrable love and integrity, so I say these things so that you can heal and not suffer the humiliation of people of the world losing respect. And when they do, their insults might be utterly shameless and humiliating- even when you lose your reputation in a church you know people can be utterly ruthless. It is hard when people do this, and as much as you want to say this is not reality, it can be. We were designed to love and be loved, but when we are not being loveable because of our sin, you can experience the personal heart ache of people not liking you. And it usually would be so easy to treat by looking at ways to Biblically resolve conflict rather than sin in our anger, causing us to lose respect for ourselves and that of others. So my own rock garden may have less rocks in it from hurling it about people, but I know I’m forgiven. Also, because of all the things I learned at church, I’m not trapped in a sinful lifestyle or an uncomfortable situation. So praise God and thank you to Calvary Chapel. God bless Chuck Smith and his family- I will pray for them even though I’m not the best candidate for that. And to the other things, well, I’m not stuck in a “Three Sisters” play where malicious words seem to build social bonds, and the fact that I can at least be on the same page as my Christian brothers and sisters is a blessing. When I tell them gossip hurts me, I know in the end, if they are believers, they too will agree because they follow God’s word. So remember, God is for you, He’s for all the principles from the Bible, and He loves you and has plans for you, and for this church. But He certainly gave you the church for a reason- because you need them and they need you. So open your heart to the possibility that God will bring healing to all of this because we all are on the same page. God bless you.
    Justine Carla Klettke

    by Justine on Jun 1, 2012 at 11:32 pm

  231. I have to do one more. This is so healing for me, so thank you to the moderators. I do not mind being published; I have to be used to it by now. I apologize to any of you that find me laying out my struggles publicly unChristian; I have tried for many, many years in the private forum to resolve them. By this I mean, I gave it my all. But I have to say, despite all I said above, and as a female I’ve had a lot of repressed intellectual questions I haven’t been able to share in the church not because the pastors didn’t try, but the saddened and hen pecked emotions took precedence. I didn’t realize that what was going on inside the church was a result of what was going on in the church, not me. It reminds me a lot of the movie “Higher Ground” that I saw- I could definitely relate to that female protagonist although both “sides” were a little overly stereotyped, it was still an excellent reflection of my experience inside the walls desperately wanting God, wanting to prove to everyone I was a Christian, feeling very emotionally off balance by not being able to given a voice without people calling me a wierdo or saying that I didn’t make sense. And so they keep saying, just read your Bible more (which always helps) and come back to church, and you’ll be okay (what they were really hoping for was a dramatic personality change on my part I think). But no, I’m not exactly okay, and being the project, the one everyone spiritually hen-pecks didn’t work out. There has been a lot of gossip, but you know, I go back. I see their heart and it’s nice they expose the false teachings. However, I listened to a song today that mirrored my sentiments- my answer is in a person Jesus, not another church. The church is supposed to be the place we go to feel safe and encouraged in our faith. It’s not the Jesus placebo. I guess it’s only now I realize. Sometimes I felt so uncomfortable when people around me would just criticize the world, criticize people, criticize other Christians, and I felt compassion for them because I was highly critical when I first came to my CC, and I got shunned as a result of people’s inability to love me despite that and see it was a problem, but I was still God’s beloved. So, when a woman is unloved, she becomes desperate. Any man, any friend outside the church nicer than the church is better than the mean church people who are critical. But when there are some hurts there again, the church welcomes you back with what- criticism. Of you, your family, of other religious sects, of, well you get the point. That’s what happened at CC but it wasn’t the pastors- my pastors were ANGELS. Truly. I will say that. So I will say though that they were trained in a very critical thinking style, so I liked them as people, they were good to me, but from the pulpit, one of them was quite cruel at times- too harsh. Only one of them. Anyways, I let it build up, and wrote the e-mails to let him know (my tone was too hurt), and he changed. But not really enough and the damage was done. I like this site because the writers of the blog articles are sane, and they really mirror my views of things as a young Christian woman. They are respectful, honest, dignified, and seek justice. They are a haven for the hurt people at CC’s. I will never again stand beside another CC because of the way the people in the church are trained to relate to each other, or just the way they naturally do. I do think these churches attract a lot of people who have some social issues. And it’s hard to ever forgive them for the rift they put between me and the people at my university, although the people at my university hurt me in reaction so badly that I was rather left so dead inside that I considered once again hiding in a CC. But going to a church and teaching Sunday School at a church where all of the young adults are not the “aunties and uncles” that you would let anywhere near your unborn children is just that, only hiding, only seeking a pseudo refuge. I have become so apologetic as to degrade myself to the pastors there in letters, calling myself a paranoid liar so they will take me back. I take full responsibility for psychologically abusing myself, because hell no, I always correct myself to the truth, always seek truth, always look to be fair to people, always seek restitution to the face (when it wouldn’t damage the person more than just letting it go and actively advocating for their good reputation) when I have said something unfair about someone…. and these are things I could not learn at a CC. These are lessons of a female heart. And as a female, I don’t want to do these things anymore- the pressure put on me in a church with people who hate me. Why? Because I don’t like them anymore there, even though I liked my talks with some of the pastors because I really saw Jesus in them. I like some of the people in their 40′s mainly, and early 20′s there were a few too, but on a whole, I don’t know why, but I’m absolutely and unequivicably terrified of going there and spending another 5 years crying endlessly. I don’t think Jesus would approve of that, even though I know life can be like that- a lot of suffering. When I think about all the things I was saved from- adultery, marriage to a non-Christian, alcoholism, intellectual brainwash, suicide, extreme spiritual/psychological abuse from someone who had to be close to me or so I thought, emotionalism guiding all my decisions, bitterness (which obviously is still being worked out), and the realization that angry/power struggle driven marriages are not at all God’s plan for a marriage because I saw some excellent models, I know that I was put in a CC by Jesus for a reason and a season. But I do not agree that it is like a marriage and that if I left, I’d have a divorce mentality. I was afraid I’d get a divorce later in life unless I stayed. I don’t know how people stay in miserable marriages p.s. but to tell you the truth, those ones don’t work out because one partner, the non-Christian leaves when you stop being their doormat for abuse, and then by the way, the Christian partner is free to remarry Biblically. So even it is was like a marriage, I think I’m free to leave because upon seeing them again, they treated me as “a family” as though they wanted me to leave and some of the women told me that no one cares about me. HALLELUJAH is all I have to say. This was my one last question, my one last tie to them, because I didn’t want to commit spiritual adultery. So yes, thank you Jesus for escape plans in the Bible because you do not expect us to stay when we plant our feet and say, no, I’m not changing for your abuse as one of your young men calls me a witch and tells his visiting parents even to shun me, I might be angry for a while, and you might have succeeded some of you in making 7 years of my life a living hell, but you don’t own me. I was bought with a price. I am God’s princess. I am here to declare to you that you can’t kill me on the inside. I will live forever with my Jesus and our family in heaven. And I know my Lord will make all of us that want to be like Him- perfect. We’ll all be individuals, but perfect people. Anyways, good bye to bitterness over this, God bless the blog writers, God bless the CC’s and may justice be done to change the wickedness is their lives, and in mine. Yes, and when I add myself, I can only know that God is gentle. But still, I am one woman, and they are a group, so there will always be a difference. I’m not going to tolerate their bullying anymore. I called them on it so many times and I’m not willing to lose my mind over it.

    Love to all!

    Justine Carla Klettke

    by Justine on Jun 2, 2012 at 6:45 pm

  232. Justine – thanks for sharing – my thoughts after reading your posts are – take it easy and keep it simple – and listen to yourself, to that inner voice inside and be honest with yourself. peace

    by Sue on Jun 3, 2012 at 10:27 am

  233. Hmmm, writing on a blog is very explosive. I was just wondering if the moderator of this blog might consider taking all my comments down. My church is my family and we’ve walked through 7 years of my life together. I love them so much. We had a massive fight, but I don’t think this writing really helped me. I’m ashamed of myself. I pour contempt on all of my pride and repent in dust and ashes. I’m trying to learn not to write things that are in any way potentially damaging to anyone. I’m just very very naive. Please once again I beg you at this site to take down all my comments as stated above. I feel it’s a bad reflection on the church and could potentially damage people from seeing Christ for who he is. Even if you won’t, can’t take them down, I want my final answer to be, I’m not perfect, my church is not perfect, but we all have the love of Jesus. I forgive them, they forgive me, and I’m going back to them… and it just happens to be a CC. But I would go back to any church where I know the pastors love Jesus and faithfully teach the word of God. I’m listening to my worship music now again, and I look forward to putting all of this behind me. Thank you God for my wonderful church family and that we all have forgiveness.

    by Justine on Jun 7, 2012 at 5:48 pm

  234. … But even though my personal church has been very loving to me and really nurtured me over the years (although no one is perfect and there was some problems, which I already publicly detailed, which is so embarassing), all the things you’ve said on your blog are awful and should never happen. I just don’t want to be involved because I’m not good at conflict resolution and I do not know the sides. So I don’t want to bash this blog, and don’t want to hurt by church family. I just hope everyone can find a resolution. I just don’t understand because my pastors are so nice and always help me, why can’t you guys all resolve your problems too? All I want is for all of this to be fixed. Then you wouldn’t have to have a blog like this, because it does really upset everyone and wreck the faith of the weaker ones. It makes me feel so sad every day knowing that these conflicts aren’t being resolved. So now I wish I could e-mail Chuck Smith so that I could fix this all for you. I feel so sad that all of you are hurting. But please consider taking down all my comments, because this has made me so depressed over the past couple weeks that I can’t function in my every day life like I should. So please once again I do request you to take down my posted remarks out of consideration for me. Thank you and I’ll be praying that this is all resolved properly with both truth and love.

    Justine Carla Klettke

    by Justine on Jun 7, 2012 at 6:12 pm

  235. Justine – it’s ok – don’t beat yourself up and I hope you learn not to be too serious. For me the calvary chapels I went to were too serious. It helped me to leave all the “seriousness”.

    by sue on Jun 8, 2012 at 1:04 am

  236. Oh my gosh. Thank you soooooooo much Sue. You guys are so nice. That is so true. I won’t beat myself up. Lol, I have become really serious, and it’s a cross. I’m just moving on from the CC thing. I’m grateful for a chance to share then and express my waffling. :)

    by Justine on Jun 8, 2012 at 8:01 pm

  237. Oh my gosh. Thank you soooooooo much Sue. You guys are so nice. That is so true. I won’t beat myself up. Lol, I have become really serious, and it’s a cross. I’m just moving on from the CC thing. I’m grateful for a chance to share then and express my waffling. :)

    by Justine K on Jun 8, 2012 at 8:03 pm

  238. To clarify, I think I just moving on from the debate about CC’s. I’m not sure what’s going to happen with me and my church- I’m still working it out. I intend to take this as a life lesson on working out conflicts face to face. It’s more healthy to maintain my connections and sort out my grievances in person. Thank you all for being so incredibly kind to me in writing. It is so so scary to read negative words in written format, and I often cringe when I do write things in text messages, etc. that are just wierd and awful. I would never say those things in person. You all seem much more adept at being tactful and grace-filled in written format than I have been lately. I’m just going to rip this off like a bandaid and stop writing on the Internet cold turkey. It has made me extremely anti-social to worry about my online personality and making amends to the masses, lol. So much better for me to just stop. Lol, I still wish I could have my posts taken down, but thank you for being gracious in your comments back. So maybe you could consider taking down me posts still? :) I would LOVE that :)

    by Justine K on Jun 9, 2012 at 12:54 am

  239. This is quite sad that someone has put out so much effort into tarnish a man who has dedicated his life to serving the lord. I would bet my bottom dollar Pastor Chuck Smith has positively changed more lives, done more charity work in not only the US but in 3rd world countries, donated more money to the needy then the man who dedicated his free time making this hate blog. It is not this pastors job to police the church’s that have claimed to follow in his traditions. By the way you attempt to make it look as if though he was claiming god would do worse to you than he could, well you missed his point!!! He was talking about your father. He was simply stating he (Chuck Smith) is not in a position to hand down discipline. Pastor Smith could do very little in the situation, more harm would be absorbed by the church not the pastor at fault. However God is the ultimate judge and this man (your father) will be held accountable by the most high. I hope god opens your eyes and you come to the understanding that Pastor Chuck may have made mistakes in the past but he is human and I believe he has made the world a better place. Have you? Because attacking in this format isn’t helping anyone.

    by Stokamator on Jun 11, 2012 at 10:29 pm

  240. Alex. You and your brothers can sue your stepdad in civil court for the abuse and take a lot of his money.
    Also you can approach the district attorney in the Maricopa county and ask for the sexual abuse to be prosecuted. You andyour brothers are adults now and would make excellent witnesses. You know a lot of catholic priests have gone to prison for sexual abuse that happened 30 years ago. They changed the statute of limitaions for sexual abuse.

    by x hippy Philadelphia House on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:23 pm

  241. (Here is a teaching I will send to many friends)

    One man said in an interview “The Lord warns, ‘Don’t touch my anointed. Do my prophet no harm.’ – to be revealed.

    Scripture tells us “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.”

    When Nathan confronted King David over his sin how did he do it?

    He did not confront him head on – no he made up a parable in order to confront him.

    But why?

    Well there is this thing called Cognitive Dissidence. (check out the book “Mistakes were made but not by ME”). We are not very open to hearing about a sin that we have already rationalized away.

    If one is in a position of power either literally or perceived they are even harder to get to look at things.

    So when a Pastor (I myself am a pastor) is confronted head on – typically he quips with this statement immediately in order to shut you up. He is biased he is trying to intimidate you and to control you. As anyone might do being confronted. So to help them – to love them it is wise to pray and ask the Lord for the timing and a parable (how to approach).

    Once I had the Lords timing and his Parable it was received well. Another time having both the timing and the parable the person accused me of tricking them of trapping them. They immediately (like five minutes later) behind my back told people that I am a cult leader a Jim Jones.

    They really it that they did not want to look at it. We need more David’s – men after Gods own heart.

    Nike means victory or to conquer. Most of you knew that.

    The Greek word for a group of people is Laos. So if you are seeking to have victory over people if you are seeking to conquer them so that they cannot hold you accountable what would the compound word be? In Hebrew it is the word Balaam. Balaam taught Israelites enemies to have victory over them by seducing them with their women which led to their idols and thus idolatry. In Greek it is the word Nicolaitans – this is found in the book of Revelation. The deeds and doctrine of the nicolaitans is anytime someone tries to manipulate you, to keep you suppressed, and oppressed in even the most subtlest of ways.

    So who was it that I quoted above? It is from a Christianity Today news article. This interviewer confronted him for not having held some people accountable. Who was it that tried to manipulate their interviewer? Read the article link to find out. For many of you who know me from a past church life it will shock you.

    http://bit.ly/RvAkp4

    by brian on Oct 10, 2012 at 2:22 am

  242. We our to Love our leaders by telling them of their error. Gal 6:1, 2; Heb. 3: 12, 13; Lev. 19:17 ahh the first several chapters of Ezekiel a watchman on a tower???

    by brian on Oct 10, 2012 at 2:25 am

  243. it is so sad, people- we can read the Bible on our own, we dont need monster churches for us to know God, we can discover it with our friends and do what is right without a organization governing us…

    THERE IS A BIG LIE BEING TAUGHT AND IT SAYS PEOPLE CAN NOT HANDLE THE BIBLE WITHOUT A MIDDLEMAN ORGANIZATION… ISNT THE BIBLE THE REASON YOUR RELIGIONS EXIST? READ IT ON YOUR OWN FROM PAGE ONE TO THE END…

    chuck smith is committing sin when he accepts praise, AND THAT IS WRITTEN, other men are sinning also: leaders in Rome’s church, and J. Witness, LDS, and etc…

    calvary chapel is a business, and it might just simply be a mafia branch, it’s bible college is on the old mafia resort. churches have a problem being good in usa because they require money to exist, that makes them buy their members,

    they are more interested in increasing membership numbers than they are in telling the truth..

    a church that does not have a agenda is a true one… a person doesnt need a church, a person should be discerning enough to utilize the non egotistical aimed material…

    honestly we do not need commentaries on the bible… we dont need opinions,

    there are to many temptations that deviate people into large lie such as the LDS Mormon lie is a big church

    the truth exists in one form and we all are equal in it,

    when a person is exalted then they are less worthy.

    by calvary chapel is business on Oct 19, 2012 at 5:19 pm

  244. Calvary chapel is a joke! I have a family member who is a former CC pastor. I doubt he even had a high school diploma. This man of God, tried to kill his family and is a complete nut case. He and his wife now live off the system (your dime and mine) yet it is still “the lord this and the lord that) Chuck Smith needs to go to his “reward” whatever that may be and the Calvary Chapel machine needs to die. The one in our town has already lost over half their members. Disgusting that the great god Chuck Smith would not stand up and defend an abused boy. May he rot with Sandusky… disgusting.

    by cordelia on Nov 1, 2012 at 12:16 pm

  245. Stokamator @ 239

    You stated:”I would bet my bottom dollar Pastor Chuck Smith has positively changed more lives, done more charity work in not only the US but in 3rd world countries.”

    There is one overriding factor concerning CC. The are not big on doing charity work. Whatever they do, by and large is make a profit of what appears to be God’s work. Missionaries pay their own way and when there is a need such as a flood or natural catastrophe, those who have no say so in CC step up and volunteer their time and their money more times than none. But CC Pastors take the credit for this.

    What more, I don’t I have ever heard of Chuck Smith ever going out into the “field” to volunteer his time by pulling up his pantlegs or roll up his sleeves to wade through the crap that people do when the truely are doing something out of a pure heart rather than to seek the accolades then spin that off into exploiting God’s Word to then use the tithes and offerings to build their own little kingdom and retirement funds.

    The picture you have of Chuck Smith simply is not accurate. It is only what CC wants you to believe. Stay on this site for awhile and buy up on some of the suggestions to ascertain the truth.

    by Uriahisaliveandwell on Jan 14, 2013 at 12:06 pm

  246. Correction: What more, I don’t think I have ever heard of

    The other item: It is the Holy Spirit of God that draws us to being born again. Regardless of whether or not the event or person involved is or is not of the Lord. God uses everything to speak His Word into lives. Even Chuck Smith.

    So in other words are you saying that Chuck Smith has a license to ignored the leaven in the church, to ignore little boys and girls being molested, beaten, and demoralized. Are you say that Chuch Smith or any CC pastor has the license to ignore that which Paul has told us they are to not be guilty of such things and to ignore them is as if they have committed them themselves. Or are you saying that you may be giving too much credit to a man who you have chosen to ignore God’s Word over.

    by Uriahisaliveandwell on Jan 14, 2013 at 12:14 pm

  247. My prayers are with you Chuck… the least I can do. I pray for God’s perfect will for the rest of your life. I would like to try and direct you though, and any others, if you will listen with an open heart. Please look at the Hacres.com website. Look at the many testimonials. If you submit yourself to the diet there and lean on God’s will, I would bet on God extending your life much further than any surgery and chemo could. However, it is not an iffy thing. You must be all in or another option. Cancer feeds off sugars and processed foods. If you eliminate these things and eat 85% green vegies (uncooked) and the rest only low GI fruits and nuts, cancer cannot survive. However, I pray for God to direct you no matter what I say. Lean not on your own understanding… but in all ways acknowledge Him.

    by Lyndon on Jan 24, 2013 at 3:27 am

  248. Psalm 72:4 (KJV)

    4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

    Proverbs 22:16 (KJV)

    He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

    Proverbs 26:24-26
    Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart; when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for there are seven abominations in his heart; though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.

    Romans 16:18 ESV
    For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

    Jeremiah 9:6 ESV
    Heaping oppression upon oppression, and deceit upon deceit, they refuse to know me, declares the Lord.

    2 Timothy 3:12-15 ESV
    Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Revelation 21:8 ESV
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    Jeremiah 5:28 ESV
    They have grown fat and sleek. They know no bounds in deeds of evil; they judge not with justice the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper, and they do not defend the rights of the needy.

    by Uriahisaliveandwell. on Jan 24, 2013 at 7:47 am

  249. Chuck will be joining Lonnie, the “son” he failed, judged, rejected, and disowned.

    by American on Apr 21, 2013 at 5:45 pm

  250. Oh my that was so sad to read. Hope for his children and grandchildren, he does not leave them with a legacy that can not be undone.

    by Olivia on Apr 21, 2013 at 7:00 pm

  251. I too am a PK but you should be more respectful to the Lord. Chuck has reached so many people….more than you and me combined. I am sorry you saw some things that didn’t look right at CC. But I did not hear any of the divine retribution from Chuck that you article tried to demonstrate. Praise Jesus, it will all come out in the end.

    by Jonathan on Jun 1, 2013 at 10:36 pm

  252. It’s difficult to know where to begin. As some of the posts above have noted, if you are attending a Calvary Chapel you should strongly consider leaving for you own sake. I have been associated with a few Calvary Chapels in the Midwest and there are some patterns and tendencies that are nearly universal. Let me start by just describing the “Love bombing to leaving” pattern.

    Basically your time at CC will be able to be described by 4 distinct phases – from “love bombing to leaving”.

    1. love bombing. When you first start to attend a CC and are viewed by that group as a new attendee/believer, expect to receive more love and acceptance than you have any where in your entire life. At this stage, the pastor likes you, the assistant pastor likes you, you are new and unique and a confirmation that the ministry is reaching people. But the thing is, is that unfortunately, given enough time, this phase will not lost and you will move to the expectations stage.

    2. expectations. You have been attending Bible studies, prayer meetings, retreats for some time. People know you and you know them. Some people you like more than others. Some people treat you kindly, but some people treat you like dirt…the days of love bombing and unconditional acceptance are long long gone. Now is the time that the leadership starts to expect things. From church attendance to willingness to offer free labor on work days to making sure to never criticize ANYTHING about the church is doing (that means you can’t criticize the pastor or the music or the carpet or anything). Whereas you were given unconditional love at the start, it is now expected of you. At this stage you will be doing all the usual stuff you did (attending Bible studies, waiting for the rapture, etc) but now you will be having to learn about and meet the expectations of others. If the fellowship is small enough to where you can spend a lot of time talking with the pastor, expect to learn about expressed and unexpressed expectations. Now let’s say you have decided to try to meet some of these expectations…

    3. Overload, break, and leave. Have you ever noticed how stressed out a CC assistant pastor looks most the time? This is because the assistant pastor has read and follows Romaine’s book called “Second” to the letter. The assistant pastor got to where he is by trying to meet those expectations mentioned in the previous stage. But while the pastor now has a lackey to help him, the assistant pastor has lost his sovereignty, lost his way, and lost himself. You see the only decisions that he can now make are ones that match the pastor’s expectations. But eventually a break will happen. The day will come when the assistant pastors inner self says “No” to the senior pastors requests. This stage isn’t just for assistant
    pastors…it’s for everyone…(ever notice how depressed and timid Brian Brodersen sounds?) eventually you will want to say no to the expectations placed on you. And then eventually you do the unforgivable sin of Calvary Chapel or any other fundamentalist, authoritarian church…you leave.

    3. Leaving. Leaving is THE worst thing you can do in a CC. There are two major ways to leave that are bad…1. Go quietly or 2. Make noise. If you go quietly, no one will notice for a while…until one day people realize that you left. If you leave by making noise you basically call other flock members up and complain about the pastor and the leadership…if you do this well enough you get to be mentioned by name and shunned from the pulpit. But it might be worth it, because you have already left any ways.

    4. Moving on. You have left CC and are now doing other things with your time. Spending time with family and true friends. Enjoying better days and glad you left CC because once you have you can look back and see the place as thousands of others have as the abusive and stifling place that it is.

    All phases can be especially experienced at Calvary Chapel Madison, WI under sheep beater Jeff Solwold.

    by Avoid CC Madison, WI!!!! on Sep 27, 2013 at 8:01 pm

  253. It’s difficult to know where to begin. As some of the posts above have noted, if you are attending a Calvary Chapel you should strongly consider leaving for you own sake. I have been associated with a few Calvary Chapels in the Midwest and there are some patterns and tendencies that are nearly universal. Let me start by just describing the “Love bombing to leaving” pattern.

    Basically your time at CC will be able to be described by 4 distinct phases – from “love bombing to leaving”.

    1. love bombing. When you first start to attend a CC and are viewed by that group as a new attendee/believer, expect to receive more love and acceptance than you have any where in your entire life. At this stage, the pastor likes you, the assistant pastor likes you, you are new and unique and a confirmation that the ministry is reaching people. But the thing is, is that unfortunately, given enough time, this phase will not last and you will move to the expectations stage.

    2. expectations. You have been attending Bible studies, prayer meetings, retreats for some time. People know you and you know them. Some people you like more than others. Some people treat you kindly, but some people treat you like dirt…the days of love bombing and unconditional acceptance are long long gone. Now is the time that the leadership starts to expect things. From church attendance to willingness to offer free labor on work days to making sure to never criticize ANYTHING about the church is doing (that means you can’t criticize the pastor or the music or the carpet or anything). Whereas you were given unconditional love at the start, it is now expected of you. At this stage you will be doing all the usual stuff you did (attending Bible studies, waiting for the rapture, etc) but now you will be having to learn about and meet the expectations of others. If the fellowship is small enough to where you can spend a lot of time talking with the pastor, expect to learn about expressed and unexpressed expectations. Now let’s say you have decided to try to meet some of these expectations…

    3. Overload, break, and leave. Have you ever noticed how stressed out a CC assistant pastor looks most the time? This is because the assistant pastor has read and follows Romaine’s book called “Second” to the letter. The assistant pastor got to where he is by trying to meet those expectations mentioned in the previous stage. But while the pastor now has a lackey to help him, the assistant pastor has lost his sovereignty, lost his way, and lost himself. You see the only decisions that he can now make are ones that match the pastor’s expectations. But eventually a break will happen. The day will come when the assistant pastors inner self says “No” to the senior pastors requests. This stage isn’t just for assistant
    pastors…it’s for everyone…(ever notice how depressed and timid Brian Brodersen sounds?) eventually you will want to say no to the expectations placed on you. And then eventually you do the unforgivable sin of Calvary Chapel or any other fundamentalist, authoritarian church…you leave.

    3. Leaving. Leaving is THE worst thing you can do in a CC. There are two major ways to leave that are bad…1. Go quietly or 2. Make noise. If you go quietly, no one will notice for a while…until one day people realize that you left. If you leave by making noise you basically call other flock members up and complain about the pastor and the leadership…if you do this well enough you get to be mentioned by name and shunned from the pulpit. But it might be worth it, because you have already left any ways.

    4. Moving on. You have left CC and are now doing other things with your time. Spending time with family and true friends. Enjoying better days and glad you left CC because once you have you can look back and see the place as thousands of others have as the abusive and stifling place that it is.

    All phases can be especially experienced at Calvary Chapel Madison, WI.

    by Avoid CC Madison, WI!!!! on Sep 27, 2013 at 8:04 pm

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Let me be very upfront…this blog is not primarily about healing…at least my participation anyway. I am not a pastor and do not possess the gift to help those who have been hurt by the Church. I have other gifts and am exercising those as I feel led. If you want help in healing go […]more →

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