Jun 092012
 

I have been an ardent critic of Calvary Chapel (for good reasons). The Panel Discussion above is good. This year’s CCSPC 2012 was good (in general). The direction and the emphasis seems to be constructive and more responsible. Leaders lead. This is good leadership in my opinion.

There are still things that can and should be done, but we’ve got to rejoice (and encourage) the good stuff and the good emphasis that does get done. There is a New Generation coming up in Calvary Chapel Land and from what I heard from some of the Lesser Names (from twitter feeds etc.)…plus the fact lesser names and younger guys were given a platform…was very refreshing.

The Big Guys, like the panel above, reinforced what looks to be a positive change in the Movement. I am, personally, cautiously optimistic.

Brian Brodersen may not be Chuck Smith (no one is)…and he may not be “the” guy…but this segment is good leadership personified in a very balanced and humble approach. I hope it’s contagious. It has the effect of putting wet blankets on fires and gives me a bit of hope that things in CC Land will improve so less people are negatively affected.

The other value to these types of discussions made public is that it “is” transparent and speaks directly to some issues and you get to hear it from the horses’ mouths. I would encourage CC Leaders to take this approach in the future. Explain your reasons for doing things. Answer questions and speculations that are out there, etc. Don’t put up Stone Walls…deal with the stuff (like these guys did in the example above).

Now if we can get some sort of Accountability Clause or mechanism (mandatory mediation) in the Affiliation/Fellowship Agreement, Transparency in Finances and a Standard List of Recommendations for a Child Safety Policy CC-wide, I would be a happy camper :smile: …and Calvary Chapel would be better for it.

http://blogs.christianpost.com/voices-in-my-head/calvary-chapels-brodersen-laurie-and-coy-set-new-tone-for-the-movement-10293/

 Posted by at 6:21 am

  78 Responses to “Panel Discussion with Brian Brodersen, Greg Laurie and Bob Coy from the Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor’s Conference 2012”

  1. I was encouraged to hear pastor Chuck mention the concept of a plurality of leaders. Does this mean the end of the Moses model of church organization?

  2. That was well orchestrated. They start off by defending themselves on the satellite church issue. Really??!! Bob forgot to mention that he opened a satellite facility less than one mile from another Calvary. Oh, he forgot to mention that when he is gone, and that is often, he chooses the guest speaker and they satellite view him as well. Why not let the pastor of the location speak on that occassion? After all the people aren’t going to see Bob. I had a conversation with one of the pastors of a satellite of CCFL and asked him when he gets to teach. Rarely if ever, was the answer.

    Did I understand correctly, some men want to be pastors, but we have to understand all pastors don’t teach??? Really???? Scripture clearly states that a man is given the position and it carries with it the responsibility to teach. This site, nor time, allows me to ellaborate on the bandini flowing from this panel which was designed to do nothing else than lay the ground work for what the big’s want to do. Maybe if they truly did things scripturally, which would require humility and a sincere seeking of the Lord, truly gifted men would be raised and they wouldn’t have to satellite themselves all over the place.

    Bob’s flop on calling it a product, was Freudian. I still have the tape lying around somewhere of the 1996 SE Pastors Conf. where Chuck tells the pastors that some of them are guilty of going to Madison Ave. for church growth instead of the Holy Spirit. Bob was in attendance.

    Why does Greg have to leave Riverside for the third service??? Oh yeah, so that he can pastor the other church in Orange County, where the old fuddy duddies can’t seem to reach the youth by being cool and hip and funny. Watch the humor Greg. Coarse joking leads to further ungodliness. I would expect a 60 year old pastor who has spent most of his time in Christ to better display the wisdom of the word.

    Cautious optimism???? Don’t hold your breath.

  3. Hey Spuster…lord of the blue grass. I can’t seem to be able to register on your other blog. Can I get a free pass?

    Gees Raymond… You sound like I did for a few years…quite bitter. Soory for what caused or led you into that condition.

  4. I wonder if Greg realizes that Bruce Mumper, Calvary Chapel Fresno, did the chicken dance to people he disagreed with. He actually did a shuffle with his feet .. brushing the dust of of his feet because I informed him he was liar.

  5. I saw nothing that indicates open dialog here. Can you please clue me in on what it was? All I saw was church as a corporation.

  6. Motel, what do you think of Brodersen? Is he a good guy in your opinion? Laurie? Interested in your take…

    Not sure why you’re having problems registering on the Christian Post blog…maybe it has a Hebrew filter? Or, a weak college football team filter? :lol:

  7. These are some of my thoughts on listening to this. I agree with Michael B. that this is church as a corporation. I am so glad I don’t go to CC anymore, and listening to this reinforces that for me. Their mindset is too much “comformity” to me. They all agree they should think only a certain way about their theology, etc.; yet I feel suffocation by the way they think. They all sound like clones of Chuck. “The Lord gave me”, “God did it”, “CC is the best thing going”,etc. They have this “push push” for getting out the gospel. Emergent is dismissed as “Liberalism”. Greg says Jesus is coming soon. He’s been saying that now for 40 years. And he’s taken on Chuck’s “so confident” voice when he says it. Yet Chuck who believed Jesus for sure would come in his lifetime will now pass before that happens. And I think Greg will too. I have so much more joy and peace today having freed myself from their narrow thinking minds. I am grateful to God for his love and mercy that it took leaving CC to experience. Peace

  8. Super 8 “you seem bitter” Not bitter, just well experienced. I have the experience of CC Golden Springs, CCFTL, the experience of some lesser knowns in Las Vegas, coupled with email and phone conversations with Roger Wing in trying to address issues that caused 70% of the leadership of one church to abandon it in a one month period and have him dismiss it as, “Oh well, thats a shame”. It included a heretical conversation held by the pastor and a congregant that he heard and dismissed.

    Bitter? No. Seriously concerned for the Lord’s sheep? Yes. I will know their is a change in CC when (1) They become self effacing, instead of self aggrandizing. (2) Recognize their sins and ask for forgiveness. (3) Repent.

    I know this may seem a stretch for you Motel, but some people still think that adherence to the word of God is significant. Jesus taught it saying love to him would be expressed by obeying His commands. James said being a doer is what is correct, not merely a hearer, which is an expression of self deception.

    The early church’e spiritual leadership became upset over the false exercise of leadership recognizing its destructive capabilities. Somehow I believe a site like this would not exist if they were around today. They would be yelling louder than we ever could.

  9. Above should say “exercise of false leadership.”

  10. Just want to say that I met Raymond and spoke at length. He did not appear to be bitter to me.

    But then, I don’t know that we all read Motel the way he means what he writes??? He worked for Chuck for a couple decades … he KNOWS. He’s got that Jewish Jokster about him that we may not read correctly.

  11. Raymond. Not trying to be accusatory, just concerned. Guess we both know Bernie Grant…eh?

  12. Motel!!!

    Are some folks stirring things up for you, lately?

    Will be out your way in August. Have to climb one of the mountains in your area.

  13. I’m only about 15 minutes in to the video. So far what I see is clear evidence that this is all about big business, and about promoting the corporate logo. ( the diving dove)

    You go to Waffle House they sell you waffles.
    You go to Mc Donalds they sell you hamburgers.

    You go to Calvary Chapel and they are simply selling eternity. Eternity is on sale for a fee, and they are looking at how to increase their market share, building their own man made kingdoms.

  14. S.M.C.

    Big business ain’t easy
    I’m sure you’d agree
    Especially when the product is eternity
    To stay one step ahead we must achieve
    And turn this holy temple
    Into a factory

    Is there anywhere you can run
    To hide from the thieves?
    Cause eternity’s on sale today for a fee

    Our sanctuary of the this high-rise
    Our steeples
    Our slogans
    Our billboards
    Our converts
    Oh-don’t forget to buy this t-shirt
    As you leave
    And open up the offering box
    And give until it hurts

    Show me an open heart and we’ll steal it away
    Cause eternity’s up for sale for a small fee today

    Faith is buying me away
    Buying me a way
    To convert the masses into little servants
    Faith is buying me away
    Buying me a way
    Buying me into your home (soul)

    This altar is a stage
    Our sponsor must be paid
    And maybe we’ll even make the front page

  15. Grateful

    Spare the effort and rent an atv

  16. Motel

    Bernie Grant, now there is a name I haven’t heard in years. I enjoyed Bernie. He was always tough to get a laugh out of but I was successful on a number of occasions. I pray he is doing well. Do you know of his welfare?

  17. Haven’t touched base with him in some years. Last I heard was from the pastor who restarted Raul’s old church in West Covina. First name is Jim but his last name escapes me due to the infirmity of age. He was once on staff at Raul’s church, but left with Bernie and others due to reasons I cannot discuss. Sweet wife and I loved having their groups at the center. I asked Jim since Bernie then attended his church and he said was he just ok, still struggling with the mess at Golden Springs. I will always appreciate Bernie as uponmfinding out I loved Martyn Lloyd Jones, sent me tons of tapes from the trust, which Bernie then sold stateside.

  18. Jim Sheets

  19. I was going to say Jim Sheets. I was sitting outside of Dale Goddard’s office when he and raul were talking to him about starting up West Covina. He was apprehensive but went. Then the next thing I know is that he is being said to have gone “off the wall”. Today I seriously question that statement. I believe Bernie had already left which took many of us by surprise.

  20. Re: Excommunicated @ 5

    Lack of class

    Lack of love

    Made himself look bad

  21. In professing Christianity some are wheat and some are tares.

    Sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

    We know what happens to the tares.

    With the wheat, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

    This is comforting to me.

  22. God never “pushed” his way into my heart. He opened it with his love.

  23. Sue,

    Is your comment to me?

  24. @#3: “That was well orchestrated. They start off by defending themselves on the satellite church issue. Really??!! Bob forgot to mention that he opened a satellite facility less than one mile from another Calvary. Oh, he forgot to mention that when he is gone, and that is often, he chooses the guest speaker and they satellite view him as well. Why not let the pastor of the location speak on that occassion? After all the people aren’t going to see Bob. I had a conversation with one of the pastors of a satellite of CCFL and asked him when he gets to teach. Rarely if ever, was the answer.”

    Definitely orchestrated but not well. I feel sorry for the CCSPs who pastor churches of 3000-500 who could not relate to Bob’s and Greg’s misplaced excitement about multi-campus satellite church empires. Insensitive IMHO. Brian Broderson seemed like the reasonable grown up on the stage.

    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?page_id=713#comment-43751

  25. Woe to the Scribes and Pharisees
    Matthew 23: 1-12

    Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

    therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

  26. Q #24 – no, my comment was not to you. Btw, liked your #26. :-)

  27. Same Calvary as usual ,Corporate Church because that’s exactly what it is 501 3 c Non Profit Corporation. Greg may joke coarsley but he ain’t got nothing on Pancho Juarez of Calvary Chapel Montebello who throws up gang signs on his blog and re enacts his druken,drugged up stupors on the pulpit just to get some laughs.

  28. If they’re not for profit, how is it they have cafes and bookstores rivaling Starbucks and Family Bookstores inside their buildings? What do they do with the monies made from the blended espressos and frappaccinos? I wonder how many tables Jesus would overturn and how many merchants would get chased out of our so-called churches these days???!!! Ever been to a CC where they’re not peddling the mothership’s and the top players’ of the movement books, messages, and other materials? It became all too sickening to see this after a while and then, on top of that, to have a pastor ask that you edit out of the Sunday message recording something he stated from the pulpit about local city offices… simply shameful!!!

  29. Entry # 26 is spot on critical of the Calvary Chapels I’ve been to. I was annoyed by a pastor constantly thinking he had to correct me when I CHOSE to call someone by his first name without his title– he sure loved hearing the “PASTOR” title himself!

  30. Andy,

    Interesting about editing out what pastor said about the local city offices. To be fair, the CC I attended in CO did sell Bibles at cost and the price of coffee and stuff I think was much less than Starbucks, but the editing out sounds hypocritical. Was it to be aired on radio? I remember I was listening to a CC pastor in our area on the radio on a Wednesday night and suddenly the radio went dead. Found out later there was a church discipline issue and they didn’t want it airing over the radio. I guess I can understand that, but I do wonder what happened.

    I never called our Pastor ” Pastor so and so either”. I always used his first name. Don’t know if he liked it or not. Made me think of what Jesus said in Matthew and Luke about how you are not to call one another Teacher or Rabbi because One (Jesus) is your teacher and you are all brethren.

    Very glad to be out of the CC system. It seems so good for a while esp. if there is a gifted speaker as head pastor. If it hadn’t been for this website, I would have kept questioning myself as to why it seemed weird there because doctrinally it had been sound. Once we got up the courage to ask about the finances, and the pastor responded in the way he did, it all became clear we were to leave. Been out 6 months now.

  31. Question please – I have always wondered. Since CC’s do not have official membership of any type yet “attendees” monies in the form of tithes are given to the “church” who owns the building when a CC buys some land and builds a church building ? The congregation certainly has no hold on it-they aren’t members, it doesn’t belong to CCCM ( as some other denominations own buildings their affiliates are in)…who owns the CC building ? The Pastor ? I know a non-profit business must be established but the Pastor is the head of that
    ” business” isn’t he ? Sorry I don’t mean to sound ignorant I just don’t know much about this and am curious. Can a pastor take out a loan against said building and use the funds for personal endeavors ? What if said Pastor one day decided to just leave the pastorate and not turn the church/building over to another pastor -could he sell the building and pocket the money for personal use ?
    This hidden money issue irks me…the pastor where I was at for many years has sent all 5 of his kids to some of the costliest universities in the country..and the church he pastors is not some CC mega church-its always averaged about 200 members for many years-some come -some go…

  32. Brian Broderson mentioned that Calvary Chapel was not emergent and those that make such claims are ignorant. This is fascinating to me when you have pastors like Bob Guaglione at CCDelco that encourage and promote Dallas Willard with his contemplative spirituality. Any one who wants a good understanding of the emergent church you can check out this documentary:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKLAPmQBvdA

  33. V,

    There has been some discussion on this blog about the subject you mentioned.
    It appeared from some comments that the CC Pastor owns the property and the church.
    The Pastors who have schools attached to the church have their kids there tuition free, unlike some of us who can spend up to 10K a year for each one in high school.That alone gives them more spending money. Also, when they go on a cruise with the congregation, guess who pays for them? We do. We are charged over 30% more by the cruise company to pay for the Pastors and staff. Also, if they mention their jeweler, dentist, car dealership, favorite clothing store, etc from the pulpit, they probably get all these services for free. And they think they are the Priests of the OT so they recieve the tithes to live off of, and at the same time own property (not allowed in the OT) which they boast they have no mortgage on because they are such good stewards of God’s money….Do they visit the homesless and the widows? Well, not personally, but there are other ministries for this. Not bitter, but better…

  34. Just to clarify– I am obviously not about all the CC Pastors, just my personal experience. We are all sinners in need of constance grace, none of us are excluded. But the subject of financial accountability has always been hush-hush. I know a couple very well off who attempted disclossure of finances, and they were basically turned away.

  35. Re: V

    If I understand it correctly, this is what happens:

    If the church is organized as a non-profit 501c3 (which all, or at least most CC’s are) then the building belongs to the corporation. However, the head of the corporation who makes all the decisions and is the final authority is the CC pastor. He can fire the board and elders if they disagree with him and they cannot fire him (the only exceptions I’m aware of are those few CC pastors who’ve rewritten their by-laws, make the by-laws public, and have removed themselves from a strict Moses Model leadership style that is central to Calvary Chapel structure.) If anyone says they have done this, MAKE SURE you read the by-laws carefully to see that they actually have real accountability that does not require the pastor to submit to willingly. When one is in sin, they don’t submit willingly to discipline.)

    My point is that if no one can hold the pastor accountable, then as the head of the corporation he can decide to do whatever he wants with the assets of the church as well as the money of the church. There are no checks or balance in a true Moses Model system.

    If a CC pastor did not organize as a non-profit 501c3, for the tax breaks, then I guess the pastor would be the owner … though I’m not entirely sure about this, common sense would tell me this is the case. Who else would own it? No members. Elders and board members have no power that has legal teeth to it.

  36. Raymond can you say which church this happened at?
    “issues that caused 70% of the leadership of one church to abandon it in a one month period”
    I attend a CC in Southwest Riverside County and we just last year had a split that took a large portion of our leadership including an Assistant Pastor.

  37. Regarding Calvinism, I have heard some terrible things said about “Calvinist” from a few prominent pastors, including our own pastor at CCTehachapi who called Calvinists heretical, while having a soft stand on the Mormonism. Many CC’s lost their affiliations because they were “Calvinist”. I hope their softening is heartfelt.

    Regarding Chuck talking about “Multiple Leaders”, I am skeptical, but “hoping”on this subject. The Moses model is one of the greatest failings of CC. If Chuck really means this, he needs to codify it as he did the Moses model, in his book “Calvary Chapel Distinctives”. He should teach those he has influence over, to make sure: spirtual, fiscal and practical accountability is emphasized. This may take away the fuel that many CC Pastors run off of to be little lords in THEIR churches.

    CC’s as well as many American churches are about: Personalities, Buildings, Budget, Programs and Popularity and have little to do with love and discipleship. Pastors are better speakers than Shepards and in many locations live at a higher standard of living than the struggling hard working people of the flock.

    I hope CC Pastors everywhere will practice what the leadership in this conference is professing.

  38. RE Raymond @#3

    “That was well orchestrated. They start off by defending themselves on the satellite church issue. Really??!! Bob forgot to mention that he opened a satellite facility less than one mile from another Calvary.”

    Yes Bob enjoys orchestrating and thinks the satellite church concept is the best thing
    since slice bread. He’s got 7 of them which made it easy for him to orchestrate this:

    All 7 CCFTL campuses converged onto FAU’s “new $79million stadium” (Bob’s words even though my sources tell me that’s not how much it cost to build that stadium…weird) located at 777 Glades Road, Boca Raton for Music, breakfast, T-shirts and a message by Bob coy.

    So what’s with the numbers Bobby Coy? I bet it’s a Vegas thing, right? 777? luck?

    After campus #8 in Miramar and you get #9 (from another struggling church that you just happen to hear about) will you find a stadium with 999 in the address for the next Easter service? Don’t forget to invite your buddy Herman Cain (aka Mr. 999) to the opening ;-)

    “Did I understand correctly, some men want to be pastors, but we have to understand all pastors don’t teach??? Really???? Scripture clearly states that a man is given the position and it carries with it the responsibility to teach” You must have missed the memo that CC’s don’t follow the Pau’s and Jesus’ guidlines for qualifications of a
    pastor:

    “A bishop then must be ….., apt to teach;” (1 Timothy 3:2).”

    They follow the Moses Model which is in direct conflict with God’s requirement for pastors in this day and age. I don’t really think of CC assistant pastors are real pastors. They’re more like enablers/supporters for the senior pastor IMHO.

    Bob gave what I thought was a dishonest explanation for satelliting himself vs. letting the campus pastors preach/teach. Something about people wanting to stay current with what’s going on in Ft. Lauderdale… But then again that’s the whole point of the satellite: to have the voice going to many locations.

    “Bob’s flop on calling it a product, was Freudian.”

    Ray, I’m thinking it was more like a double freudian slip because he likened the ‘product’ to milk as in the milk of the Word vs. solid food. Nothing wrong with milk but we need the meat as well, but you will get a higher head count with milk IMO.

  39. I’m sorry but after listening the the hour video with Bob Coy, Greg Laurie, and Broderson, I am left saying to myself and now you that what was shared was nothing different than any corporate meeting I have sat in on for over 30 years. Am I missing something here. It sounds like business as usual.

  40. “A bishop then must be ….., apt to teach;” (1 Timothy 3:2).”

    I have often wondered why the worship leader is called “Pastor” when they clearly don’t teach.
    I think “Pastor” title is given too freely.
    A Pastor is a Shepherd of God’s people.
    Many CC Pastors don’t even have any contact with the sheep.
    Especially the worship leaders..aka “Pastors”

  41. I just looked at the affiliation agreement you posted last year. There’s no mention whatsoever of the three points you raise – accountability, financial transparency, and child safety. Arguably the first two could be covered under bylaws. but they are so important that they should really be explicitly mentioned. Child safety is such a hot issue that it definitely needs a question of its own. Says a lot…

  42. Usually leaders are brought into leadership with support of the main leader. What is missing is how Brian tried to elevate himself in leadership by telling Chuck to leave. No one has mentioned the family issues between Brian and his wife.

  43. because of nepotism!…

    brian is the trojan horse through which evil and compromise has succeeded to infiltrate the cc kingdom while chuck stood by and watched it fall from glory because of cheryl…

    Romaine saw this and died of a broken heart!!!

  44. I heard that Brian Brodersen told Pastor Chuck that Calvary Chapel wasn’t big enough for the both of them and Chuck should leave!!! I don’t see that Brian has a servant’s heart. It’s as though The apostle John was writing about such attitudes in III John.

  45. Tommy Sparger. North Point Pastor Resigns, Cites “Moral Failure” . With Boy Coy and Greg Lauri promoting these multi-site churches, I think it may behoove them to consider the collateral damage that has been done by Tommy Sparger and his multi-site church. Pray for this situation but also Calvary Chapel that they consider long and hard before they keep pushing the multi-sites.

  46. whos_who at 43 said:
    “Usually leaders are brought into leadership with support of the main leader.”

    Or they’re brought in with a majority vote from the people they’re gonna be leading right? Simple solution is to have the 1500+ CCSPs decide new leader.

    whos_who:
    “What is missing is how Brian tried to elevate himself in leadership by telling Chuck to leave.”

    Assuming you’re right and depending on Brian’s reasons to Chuck why he should leave that is not necessarilty a bad idea.

    whos_who:
    “No one has mentioned the family issues between Brian and his wife.”

    I’m sure you can’t wait to tell us about them, and if they’re false Brian or an associate will rebut your claims depending on the nature of those claims. But before you get started, don’t forget Chuck’s own family issues: Chuck Smith, Jr., Paul Smith….allegations of adultery….

    Eventually Chuck will realize he’s the common denominator to his and many others problems. But here’s the bright side. Like math, when we find the common denominators it gets us solving the problem: 3/4 + 1/2 becomes 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4.

    Yes!

  47. whos_who at 45 said:
    “I heard that Brian Brodersen told Pastor Chuck that Calvary Chapel wasn’t big enough for the both of them and Chuck should leave!!! I don’t see that Brian has a servant’s heart. It’s as though The apostle John was writing about such attitudes in III John.”

    I heard that Bob Coy’s face turned ruby red when he was asked to kiss Greg Laurie during the above panel discussion! What’s that about, are Bob and Greg gay lovers? Do we want them heading up the movement when Chuck croaks?

    That would explain Bob Coy’s recent bashing from the CCFTL pulpit of Obama for his stance on marriage equality….are you projecting your own unacceptable (i.e., homosexuality is sin) desires Bob? Diversionary tactic Bob? Besides POTUS is just that: the president not the pastor of the US. Much as I love my local pastor I wouldn’t want him to be my president.

    Maybe Brian is the lesser of the 3 evils???

  48. Perhaps Brian is the instigator of evil and creating havoc with leaders in Europe

  49. To CF Lover…. Allegations of adultary? Ha Are you serious? Men in that are 80+ in years.

  50. whos_ who said:
    “To CF Lover…. Allegations of adultary? Ha Are you serious?”

    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1194#comment-33511

    Alex said:
    “Cynthia, Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel do their best to distance themselves from Lonnie Frisbee the homosexual…even though the Movement was really started by Lonnie and co-opted by Chuck Smith.

    Yet, Chuck Smith has no problem embracing an adulterer (heterosexual) like David Hocking…probably b/c Chuck Smith, Don Stewart and many other CC Pastors are heter adulterers.

    Grace* for the hetero adulterers in Calvary Chapel…not so much for the homos and Lonnie Frisbee.”
    —————————————————————————————————-
    Dunno dude but it seems like if Chuck Smih committed adultery Brian would know and maybe that’s why Brian said “…Chuck should leave!!!” or step down? Most protestant Christians would agree with Brian. Just sayin’

  51. I love that Jeremy W. used a Project 86 song in this thread!!

  52. @ CF Lover, as you say… you heard. You are gossiping. You have no first hand knowledge of adultery by Chuck , Paul. Nor does anyone. I Tim 5:19

    It’s so good of you to share what a spiritual person you are by making false accusations.

  53. I have the “2 or 3 witnesses” who have told me the same story about CS. I trust my sources, so much so that I’m willing to take responsibility for the allegations in a court room. I think the truth is that CS had an issue with adultery in his past (when he was a much younger man), went to his board and was prepared to leave CC for another woman that wasn’t his wife. I’ve been told that guys like Don McClure are aware of this. I asked Chuck directly about it, he denied the allegations, said they were ridiculous…but Chuck is the same guy that I’ve caught in several lies in dealing with my situation, so I don’t trust that he’s telling the truth on this one. He would have good reason to lie about it. I’ve been told it’s to protect his wife, which I can understand. Hopefully those in CC who know the truth will be more forthcoming when Chuck and his wife go on to be with the Lord. it’s a legitimate issue and goes to Qualifications of a Pastor/Elder in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 and should be dealt with publicly IMO. CS has repented of the adultery (it seems) but the ongoing lying about it is an ongoing un-repented sin and disqualifying.

  54. CF Lover, Bob Coy and Greg Laurie are not gay lovers and there is absolutely no testimony / evidence that I or any others who report on CC have received.

    You know they can subpoena your information and hold you accountable for defamation do you not?

    I’m going to moderate your post. I assume it was a joke, but IMO it’s over the line.

    I have no problem with opinions, no problem with individuals sharing their personal testimonies about CC and public figure leaders. I also have no problem with stuff that is true, even if it is unflattering. The truth, or reasonable belief that it is truth based on sourced information, etc, is an ultimate defense. Wild, unsubstantiated allegations, however, might be actionable (and should be). Keep that stuff off my blog.

    If you were joking around based on the “kiss” comment in the panel discussion, then I apologize for being over-sensitive :smile:

  55. Alex, c’mon at no time have I ever written anything actionable on this blog. I’m not afraid of lawsuits, never been sued, never lost one. Let Bob Coy deal with his problems biblically and this will all go away. Simple as that. CC has big problems and Bob Coy plays a major role. You should see the stuff he’s carrying on @ ebay. He’s into all kinds of stuff and his tentacles know no bounds. Have you and your peeps decided to stop the eBay shenanigans yet Bob?

    I don’t leave actionable comments. If they’re getting removed it’s not because they’re actionable.

    Bob Coy is guilty of at least defamation of character which he cannot and will not deny and which IS actionable. Lots of stuff come out in lawsuits and believe me a lawsuit would be a blessing all around so it’s a pity my comments aren’t actionable. There’s a lot that would come out about the unrepentant Bob Coy.

    There’s so much so many really don’t know and you shouldn’t take that the wrong way; unknown unknowns to use a military term.

    You can moderate away as you wish. Just make sure your motives are as pure as a petal, and you don’t end up becoming like the thing you hate. Hurt people hurt people. Who said that? Dave Rolph?

    How about removing the comment in #48:

    “Perhaps Brian is the instigator of evil and creating havoc with leaders in Europe”

    Sounds like a broad sweeping unsubstantiated allegation. Actionable? Slanderous?

    Are you ‘whos_who’ Alex are u working with/using that moniker in any way?

    If I’m you I’d claim no agency relationship between blog owner and blogger. Lol!

    Seriously, what’s going on Alex? Don’t get so consumed by the blog my friend. ;-)

    Where there’s smokescreen, there’s ire… and my guess is Bob Coy is mad he has his own thread.

  56. On the subject of agencey, the judge in Fort Lauderdale, Broward County that ruled in favor of Bob Coy’s CCFTL was his friend who worked and volunteered at CCFTL. That judge (I will need to confirm if in fact it was a 9-page ruling and get to the bottom of this thing about ’9′ that Bob seems to be pushing) found no agency relationship between CCFTL and their school located on the same property. It was a child sex abuse lawsuit that CCFTL chose to handle….you guessed it….’in house’.

    If all these plaintiffs against the abusive CC system run by an alleged adulterer are having a hard time establishing agency relationship I wouldn’t worry about the blog and removing stuff that could end up being counter productive to the cause in more ways than one.

  57. Jake Long,
    I though S.M.C. was very fitting. The other song that reminds me of most topics on this blog would have to be THE SANCTUARY HUM!!!!!

  58. CF Lover, I took it as an insinuation that they were gay lovers, which I thought was over the line, but no problem. In hindsight, I think you’re right, not actionable…especially since you framed it as a question and it was as a result of the “kiss” comment that was joked around about on their video (by them).

    What the ebay deal? Do you have a link?

    If you get a copy of that ruling, can you send it or link it?

  59. Alex #53 It’s obvious that you are not a spiritual person. Eph 4. And more specifically …For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…. walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

  60. Alex…. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

  61. Who’s Who, you have walked this path before. Restrain yourself or you will be moderated.

  62. Who’s who,

    How is it that you can tell Alex he’s wrong, yet you don’t think Alex should tell CC they are wrong for not dealing with their sin?

  63. Alex, I can’t post the cartoon from your Facebook page, though I wish I could.

    Frame one: Group of sheep with ravenous wolf behind them. A man is standing there warning the sheep by pointing at the wolf yelling, “DANGER! DANGER! WOLF!”

    Frame two: One of the sheep steps forward and kicks the man in the butt yelling, “TROUBLEMAKER!”

  64. Good to see you Not Alone!

    Ah yes, I’d forgotten Who’s who’s been around before. Now I remember…

  65. Thanks Greatful. I am here everyday. Just lurking. :)

  66. @Jeremy W.

    That whole album pertains to this entire blog in my opinion.

  67. whos_who, then yank my Dove and disaffiliate me, I’m obviously not Qualified to be a Pastor of a Calvary Chapel or lead a Movement/Denomination. Don’t follow me as a Pastor/Guru either and don’t give money to me.

    I am the Publican, I am a sinner. If you’re looking for a Pastor/hypocrite to pledge your allegiance to, there are 2,000 options in Calvary Chapel.

  68. Who’s who,

    The more you blog the more ignorant you sound. Anyone, and that means anyone that has been to any CC knows that the pulpit is their blog and that they have been utilizing it since before the advent of blogs. Next, Ezek. 3 & 33, God will hold someone accountable for the blood of another’s sin if they are asked to address it and don’t. Furthermore, the need for God to raise up men to address the sins of failing leadership is prevalent.
    Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
    Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    Jesus said he will send prophets, wise men and scribes. Keep studying Whos who. Maybe one day you may actually come to the knowledge of the truth.

  69. Who’s who,

    The more you blog the more ignorant you sound. Anyone, and that means anyone that has been to any CC knows that the pulpit is their blog and that they have been utilizing it since before the advent of blogs. Next, Ezek. 3 & 33, God will hold someone accountable for the blood of another’s sin if they are asked to address it and don’t. Furthermore, the need for God to raise up men to address the sins of failing leadership is prevalent.
    Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
    Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    Jesus said he will send prophets, wise men and scribes. Keep studying Whos who. Maybe one day you may actually come to the knowledge of the truth.

  70. V, Hannah, Grateful

    Each CC has its own rules of incorporation. Brian Brodersen initiated the change at Costa Mesa to give the Pastor absolute control. It was passed by the board members that Brian had brought on the board.

  71. Oh so whos_who is suddenly now a troll? Gimme a break ;-)

    Unbelievable….Lol!

    I assure you the real instigator of evil and havoc is not BB

  72. Re: CF Lover,

    Who’s who has a long history on this blog. It’s not a good one. He’s had to be moderated many times. Alex figured out who he is and named him one time. He’s not even CC.

  73. Hey no worries, we all suck, we’re all a buncha idiots, it’s part of our condition or sumthin’, a paradox, no consensus on much, etc etc blah blah bob, alex… ;-)

  74. I’m searching for any truthful input regarding a man named JOHN TODD. He’s now deceased, but have come across some info that he channeled millions of Illuminati $$ to Chuck S. and it was used to finance Marantha Music Co.
    I’ve been pretty much told to pound sand when I called CCCM to get verification of some kind.
    Help??

  75. Doug Guilliand, are you out there? Do you know where Megan can look for answers?

  76. Wikipedia has a lot of information on the infamous John Todd, mostly he was an unreliable opportunist making up unsubstantiated fabricated stories, that have long been discredited.

  77. Thanks, Antonia!

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