Calvary Chapel Abuse



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Are kids safe from meeting pedophiles System-wide in Calvary Chapel? Shocking details emerge in Calvary Chapel Child Molestation lawsuit. Chuck Smith says there is nothing he or CCCM/CCOF will do or can do to protect kids in the CC System from pedophiles.

Are your children safe at Calvary Chapel? The answer, surprisingly, in many cases is no, not necessarily. Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and CCOF state they "do not have responsibility or control" and they don't want any with any of the 2,000 CC's. It results in no System-wide Standards to help protect children...and pedophiles and child molesters are slipping through the big cracks.

Graphic details from the ongoing Calvary Chapel Molestation lawsuit (one is still pending) in the Idaho court system have emerged in an article in the OC Weekly here:

http://www.ocweekly.com/2012-07-05/news/calvary-chapel-costa-mesa-bob-davis-anthony-l-iglesias/

According to the article:

According to the lawsuit, in Idaho, Iglesias “dared” one victim to “touch his penis” and forced him to “perform oral sex” on him. The abuse also included “masturbation, fondling, anal penetration and other deviant sexual acts.” Iglesias allegedly told one victim that this behavior was “normal” and explained that “kids in Thailand do this all the time,” adding in reference to masturbation, “One kid pretended it was like driving a stick shift.”

The details are disturbing…and recently an Idaho Judge affirmed as “facts of the case” that the victims were introduced to the pedophile, Iglesias, through Calvary Chapel youth groups. The lawsuit alleges that Calvary Chapel knew there was a problem with Iglesias but allowed him to be “restored” to be with kids.

To date, Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and CCOF (the licensing arm and previously reported accountability arm of Calvary Chapel of which Chuck Smith is President) have said they “don’t have any responsibility or control” over what goes on at “individual” Calvary Chapels…some 2,000 of them. Chuck Smith also clearly states, they don’t want any responsibility (read liability) or control either.

This begs the question…who is going to make sure that all 2,000 Calvary Chapels vet Sunday school leaders, youth group volunteers and children’s workers and pastors? Who is going to make sure that a known pedophile is not allowed to be with children at the Calvary Chapel you or a friend or a loved one attend and trust your children to?

The answer is: Not Chuck Smith, CCCM and CCOF.

Are your children safe in Calvary Chapel youth groups and Sunday schools? I don’t know. We know that “some” of the CC’s have standards and place…but many do not…and there is no one at the top of the Calvary Chapel hierarchy who holds this issue as a priority, nor do they want any part of it.

The terrible fact is, kids have been introduced to pedophiles / child molesters in the Calvary Chapel System. Kids have been molested through those relationships (due to trusting the Brand and the person representing the Brand). The parents should not have trusted Calvary Chapel in these instances.

The other terrible fact is, Calvary Chapel Pastor Chris Olague was recently arrested for molesting an 8-year-old girl in Huntington Beach, California, Calvary Chapel Pastor Dino Cardelli is currently serving time for molesting his foster daughter and physically abusing another child in his care, Pastor John Flores of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa was arrested for raping a teenage girl on the CCCM Campus (and insiders allege CCCM’s leadership initially tried to handle the issue in-house until the family got Gloria Allred’s office involved) and Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier is accused by his blood son Paul Grenier of molesting him when he was young.

Spread the word and be warned. Calvary Chapel is the Wild West and the next time you introduce your kids to a CC youth group leader or a Sunday school worker…they might be a Calvary Chapel that doesn’t have protecting children as a priority.

Posted by on July 13, 2012.

Categories: Pastor Chuck Smith

64 Responses

  1. This post is one of the clearest, and most declarative statements of the purpose of our existence in the www.
    This warning is not only a need, but this is also a necessary voice to alert throngs of people that quietly attend a seemingly safe CC.
    I agree that not all CC’s are dangerous, however, this position should be perceived as a real lack of Love for others.
    Thank you for posting this Alex.

    Blessings,

    PJay

    by Pjay on Jul 13, 2012 at 11:36 am

  2. Thanks PJay. Appreciate the feedback.

    by Alex on Jul 13, 2012 at 6:18 pm

  3. Alexm,

    As I read this well put together,informative and important words of warning, my thought is that even though a co-worker (that I spent much time witnessing to-she was from the RCC) knew everything that our family went through at our CC, she still decided to go there and 2 years later still attends. She says “my husband likes Pastor _____. Somehow, all this information falls on deaf ears. I can imagine how you feel with your family situation, when people choose to be loyal when they know the corruption.

    BTW, is there any way to have a”general”ongoing thread for people to post on? There are so many threads that people are responding on, that it is hard to keep track, and unless you see the recent posts, you dont know who is responding where. I know the way PP is set up, they are responding on active threads. And the older ones get archived. Its just that you miss someone responding to you cause you don’t know it
    ‘s there. Dont know if I am making sense.

    What ever happened to that project about the documentary you mentioned back in Nov I think?It is on the prayer thread.

    by Hannah on Jul 14, 2012 at 7:13 am

  4. When people in our CC asked about the finances because the ministries were having to come up with their own money and yet the pastor’s lifestyle (along with his family) was expensive, along with expensive “ministry” trips, they were shown the door. It was as if those who knew about this just put their fingers in their ears and saying, “La, la, la, la, la …” in order not to hear it and have to deal with the information.

    Sometimes we like our peace and comfort more than the truth.

    Having said that, I don’t think that leaving every CC because they don’t have protective measures in place must be the response of all. But to just trust one’s kids in the CC programs, as well as on their trips, would be foolish and unloving towards one’s children. It’s the same reason we don’t let them ride in cars without seatbelts.

    To not take any steps towards changing this error and making sure that safety measures for kids are put into place in one’s church, would be unloving and unwise towards our fellow Christians and towards our “neighbors” who visit the church; but especially to ALL CHILDREN! If anything ever happened, we are then guilty for not protecting the kids/teens/young adults.

    But sticking our fingers in our ears and saying, “La, la, la, la, la …” is not a mature, godly response to a serious problem.

    by Grateful on Jul 14, 2012 at 9:35 am

  5. Grateful,

    The finance issue seems universal at CC. What happens, if you know, to CC assets if it goes belly up. It seems CCs are 501 (3)c with the pastor as chairman. Does he determine where the assets go? Or the state? Just wondering.

    The lifestyle at our former CC was certainly not in the stated “31K yearly salary”. Way above!.

    Thanks for any info you may have.

    by David on Jul 15, 2012 at 12:03 pm

  6. Re: David

    I do not know for sure since I think the laws may very from state to state. My understanding has always been that secured assets belong to the pastor for him to do with as he pleases. In my state, our church is a 501C3 non-profit organization. As a result the secured assets are owned by the organization, but the head of the org is the pastor, solely. So he still makes all the decisions about the assets. Though CC’s have boards, with the Moses Model organizational structure, the pastor can simply fire a board member who disagrees with his financial decisions. So there’s no accountability there.

    Anything that is unsecured is owned by the bank.

    If your pastor said he was making 31K, then you should ask the following questions:

    1. What does your wife make?
    2. Who pays for your life and health insurance?
    3. …. your car? gas? maintenance? insurance?
    4. … gym membership?
    5. …. trips that you call ministry but tack on vacation time and bring the family?
    6. …. who pays for meals eaten out when you bring a guest?
    7. …. house?
    8. …. your teen’s car? gas? maintenance? insurance?
    9. … Starbucks when you bring someone with you?
    10. … who pays for your clothes? wife’s clothes? and kid’s clothes? quarterly?

    You get what I mean. Add it all up, all the perks and compensation packages amount to a great deal of value!

    Our pastor kept saying he had no money, yet was purchasing new cars every two years (or leasing.) It was an unwise use of money, so when people asked why he was doing that he showed them the door. Later we found out he was squirling away lots of cash from the church … $200K in 2011 and $60K in credit card debt. Who knows what he took all the other years?

    If you pastor claims $31K salary, but lives much higher, you need to investigate … though you won’t last long there, sorry to say.

    by Grateful on Jul 15, 2012 at 4:52 pm

  7. re-posted by guru from another thread for exposure… PLEASE READ!

    ——————————————————————————————————————

    First of all, I just want to say to Alex that my heart goes out to your entire family. I hope that God brings healing according to His will.

    I remember my first visit to a Calvary Chapel way back in 1982. It was everything I hoped a church could be. I was a new Christian and was attending a small, old fashioned Assemblies of God church at the time. The contemporary Christian music was awesome and I learned a great deal about the Bible. I wanted to be like Pastor Chuck or like Greg Laurie. I attended Big Calvary when I earned my Bachelor’s Degree in Biblical Studies, Pastoral Ministries and Theology at Southern California College (Vanguard University). I had hoped to be a Calvary Chapel pastor some day, perhaps even plant a church. I was blessed to be invited to meet with Pastor Chuck many years ago and we prayed together. He was very gracious and I was very impressed and I greatly respected him.

    In recent years, I’ve read many unflattering things about Pastor Chuck, Calvary Chapel and other Calvary pastors. It saddens me greatly, but since I don’t idolize men, I understand that any man…yes, any man, can be tempted by the devil and any man can stumble and fall. Certainly it is why we should always pray for our pastors, but it is also why there needs to be a balanced accountability in every church. I have always agreed with Pastor Chuck’s notion that a board of elders should not have the power to fire a pastor without good cause or for petty disagreements etc…no man should be allowed to operate any church as if it is his own family business or personal franchise, as if it were a fast food place. Either extreme will result in corruption, and God’s people will suffer.

    When I was in Bible college I spent a lot of time with other Christians at the Colorado River. I can remember one day when I was studying for a 25 page term paper I had to write for one of my classes at SCC (Vanguard), while a man who later became a Calvary pastor was sitting in a beach chair next to me listening to a tape player with one of Pastor Chuck’s tapes playing. It’s funny when I look back on it, because whenever that guy would teach, he’d sound just like Pastor Chuck, with the same pauses etc… Sadly, that guy ended up in all the newspapers, as a poster boy for all fallen Calvary pastors. I can honestly say that as we spent time together way back then, I did see that he was pretty prideful and egotistical and I wondered then if he would be the kind of guy who would ever truly “love” Christ’s sheep. It seemed he wanted to be on stage with lots of followers. From what I’ve gathered, it would seem that many other Calvary pastors pushed themselves forward into positions of authority, and as I’ve read in this column, many peopel have been hurt by them. Sadly, the apostles warned us these days would come.

    At SCC (Vanguard) my professors really emphasized not following in the footsteps of the Pharisees and the Saducees. We were told not to serve God for money or for mammon (pride, material blessings etc…). We were taught the we were to be shepherds over God’s sheep and that we were not to be running our own personal fiefdoms.

    I took those warnings to heart. One professor even told us that if we wanted riches in life, we should not become ordained when we graduated, and instead, we should trust God to find another career where we could still serve God, yet not abuse the office of the pastor. They warned us that God would hold us accountable if we were to stumble God’s sheep or cause any stain or blemish on Christ’s church on account of our foolish, sinful behavior.

    If you ask me, I think more pastors would benefit from a serious Bible Degree, although I do know first hand that many Calvary Chapel pastors are insecure in their own knowledge of the Bible and I agree with several others who have been in ministry who have posted comments in this column that folks with Degrees in theology are indeed persona non grata at many Calvary Chapels. It should not be that way, but it is.

    I had plenty of issues to deal with in those days, but I took those words seriously. I did want a nice two story house with a swimming pool and nice cars and a middle class lifestyle. So I did not pursue a position in ministry in order to finance my material aspirations. I knew in my heart that using God’s church to make money would simply prove that I was no different than Annas and Caiaphas, the ring leaders of the thieves who opposed Jesus, who Jesus called a “den of thieves.” I did not acquire great wealth in my secular occupation, but I did manage to forge a middle class lifestyle. And while I am happy I did not “fleece” God’s flock to get these things, I would be lying if I said that watching other men plant churches and seeing them prosper financially with God’s money hasn’t caused me to be envious at times. It hasn’t always been easy to watch them in their early years driving Toyota Corollas, and then as the churche have grown, begin to drive expensive BMW’s or Mercedes etc… while I’m driving 10 year old vehicles with 150,000 miles on them, since I have no expense accounts to cover all of my incidentals. My professors at college were all learned men who loved the Lord very much, but they drove old station wagons, VW’s and family man cars. The professors at SCC when I was there, taught us not to partake of the Kool-Aid of the prosperity teachers and in the end, fulfill the apostles warnings about last days’ apostate ministers.

    I take no satisfaction in the fall of Calvary Chapel ministers, or any ministers for that matter. I wish all minister could practice self-sacrifice and willfully abstain from pursuing material riches in order to be good examples to the flock. I wonder how many people have pursued materialism and gotten into problems with debt, simply because they were trying to keep up with their pastor’s lifestyle?

    It pains me to read all of the posts left on this website by good-hearted children of God who need a true shepherd, yet have been let down by mere mortals. I wish I could tell all of you that had I become a pastor, I would have been different. But how do I know? Money has a corrosive effect on any who come into contact with large amounts of it. Why else did the devil use money and mammon, fame and fortune to tempt Jesus? If it could not destroy one’s soul, why would the devil use it to lure Jesus? Why did Jesus and his apostles warn about money and riches, and why did they say that in the last days, apostate ministers would start to peddle the gospel for money and run the church like a fortune 500 business. There is a character in an end times novel named Jeff Theevers who seems to fit the bill of a last days apostate perfectly. But I have never, ever wanted to believe that ANY Calvary Chapel pastors might be guilty of such things. So I want to be careful before I cast any stones. But for the grace of God, there go I. But I would never argue with those in the know who have evidence of wrongdoing and share it on sites like this one. Nothing surprises me anymore. I certainly believe anything is possible, even in Calvary Chapel.

    But one would have to be blind not to notice financial abuse and other issues that so many have written about in this column. I worry that these are signs that the last days apostasy that Paul and Peter and Jesus warned about, have come to pass. As it is written, “in their greed, they will exploit you.” Jesus said, “a tree is known by its fruit.” Kind of hard to argue with the evidence, isn’t it?

    But I don’t want to believe the things I’ve read and heard about so many of the pastors I’ve loved and admired over the years. That doesn’t mean they aren’t true. It just means that ignorance is bliss. And I used to be ignorant of such things, which made it easier to sit in the pews of my local Calvary Chapel. I know that if all of the allegations are true, it is sad indeed. I am torn. I don’t want to believe that men I’ve admired would intentionally deceive people or that they could actually be fulfilling prophecy. Who wants to think that their pastor is a crook? One of my former professors at SCC reminded me recently that in any large organization, if there is any weakness in accountability, abuse can and will happen. The devil will find every chink in an organization’s armor, and will exploit it. And sadly, I must accept that this principle holds true, even in Calvary Chapel. But oh how I wish it were not true. How I wish the pastors of Calvary Chapel were truly honorable men, without blemish. But there is always the danger of corruption when leaders are indoctrinated into a way of belief and a way of lifestyle, rather than being taught what the Bible actually teaches.

    Years ago, I got to know one of Dr. Robert Schuller’s granddaughters. She was a very, very sweet young lady with a beautiful singing voice. To see the financial abuse reported in the newspapers by that organization, makes me hurt for her and her family. At the same time, I understand that justice must be done, even when we care about the people who are accused of wrongdoing. That holds true for the Catholic Church abuses, as well as any abuses within Calvary Chapel. Covering up sins is wrong, regardless of which organization is doing it. And any men who subscribe to the Joe Paterno view of protecting children, will likewise suffer a tarnished legacy after they are taken from this earth, regardless of how much good that person may have done for the kingdom of God. We need to always remember that Judas Iscariot was one of the 70 disciples who were sent out and preached the gospel, who healed people and who was called by Jesus to be an apostle. Yet Jesus said he had a demon all along. And he fooled the other disciples up until he killed himself. But Jesus would have forgiven even Judas, had he come clean and done the right thing. I wish any who are guilty of wrongdoing in Calvary Chapel would come clean and repent and do the right thing.

    Ironically, the lead attorney in the Schuller case is a childhood friend of mine. So on the one hand I hurt for one of the victims in the Schuller family, yet at the same time I know my friend and she simply is doing her job and is being paid to exact justice on behalf of those who were bilked out of millions of dollars. Again, it pains me to see all Christians stained by the actions of fallen leaders in the church. I wish there was some way to create a perfect church and a perfect pastor. I onlce thought Calvary Chapel was that place.

    Once upon a time, I honestly believed that Calvary Chapel had found the key to doing things right. I thought pastor Chuck was like the apostle Paul and I thought he was bringing about another first century church movement. But from what I’ve read, something went terribly wrong. That makes me sad. I still enjoy the music and the teaching, but I’ve learned too much to ever be comfortable and to ever be fully trusting ever again, of any pastor or any human ministry. I am jaded. I simply don’t have that much faith in my fellow man anymore. But I still have faith in Jesus Christ to help all of us down “Redemption Road,” despite the foibles of fallen men. And I know that Jesus would have forgiven even the antics of men like Annas and Caiaphas, had they repented and made restitution for their sins and truly been led by the Holy Spirit of God. I would love nothing more than to see a mea culpa by any of the men mentioned in this column who are truly guilty of the things they have been accused of. We need more truth in God’s kingdom. I will pray for all who have shared their stories on this website.

    Some folks mentioned the end times teachings of Calvary Chapel (ie. pre-tribulation rapture) and said the emphasis on this end times doctrine have caused many to leave the fold. I should have mentioned that at SCC (Vanguard) I was also required to write a term paper on all three positions on the rapture of the church. That there will be a rapture is a certainty. But as I studied the Scriptures and saw that there are only two resurrections of the dead mentioned in the New Testament, and both of them happen AFTER the Great Tribulation period; and after reading Paul’s words to the Thessalonians that the rapture of the church CANNOT occur UNTIL/AFTER the dead in Christ rise first (First Resurrection of the Dead), it became pretty obvious to me that the pre-tribulation rapture idea was a construct of John Darby in the 1830′s, and was simply made popular by Scofield. But being popular didn’t make it true. And while I wanted the pretribulation position to be true (and I still do), I realized that wanting an escapist doctrine to be true won’t make it true if Scripture clearly teaches that is is not tenable.

    From that moment on my faith in the pretribulation rapture was shaky at best, and I knew in my heart that I could never be a Calvary Chapel pastor, no matter how much I loved and cared for God’s people. It is not allowed. Unless one can subscribe to the pre-trib position, one cannot ever be a Calvary Chapel pastor. I wonder how many good pastors have been pushed out of ministry by this requirement. I knew that I could not pretend, and that if I could not with full integrity teach people that the pretrib position is true I could never be a Calvary Chapel pastor. Yet I believe the Bible is true, every word of it. And I simply could not bring myself to deceive the flock of God or mislead them in any way. And certainly I could not be dishonest for money’s sake.

    Because of this, I never became a pastor and I realize now that I never will. Like so many who have shared their stories in this column, I too have felt like a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. So I can truly relate to so many of the stories I’ve read on this site. Yet where do I go? Back to my Catholic church? Or back to my grandparents Church of God with their name it and claim it doctrine? And what protestant churches today don’t follow many of the same tenets of Calvary Chapel? So we have to sit in the back rows of Calvary Chapel and shun involvement in ministry, and we can’t let anyone get to know us for fear that they’ll find out we don’t walk the party line, or we’ll be asked to leave. Can you imagine that actually happening in any church operated by Jesus or his disciples?

    For those who are interested and who have read this far, there is a very good end times book titled “Redemption Road,” that is available on Amazon.com for about $10. There is a kindle edition as well. Many of the themes that I’ve seen on this website are found in this end times novel. The author really does a good job of vetting the last days apostate ministers, but he also does a great job with Special Agent 777, Cutter Cohen of the Messianic Jewish Underground, who along with a faithful African-American minister named Grayson Gleeson, still try to shepherd God’s flock with integrity and truth. They are contrasted with last days apostate evangelist, Jeff Theevers, who I think everyone who has written in this site seems to have known some pastor who is like Theevers. And unlike the Left Behind novels, the Christians in this Redemption Road find themselves faced with the reality that the Antichrist has risen from the dead and is out to make war on the saints, and the rapture didn’t happen. No pretrib rapture to save them. Yikes! A group of Messianic Jews and Gentile beleivers, that is, a remnant of God’s faithful believers, come to the rescue and do battle with the forces of Antichrist and protect God’s people in those dark, last days. Sadly, it won’t ever be available in a Calvary Chapel bookstore because it places the rapture at the end of the Tribulation period, just as Jesus did in Matthew 24, and just like Jesus revealed to Paul and John in the Revelation. So while it won’t ever be on the shelves of your local Calvary Chapel, it is still a very good read and much, much more realistic than the Left Behind novels.

    In closing, I’d just like to say let’s all remember to pray for Calvary Chapel ministries, and for those Calvary Chapel pastors who are good men, who are trying their best to serve Christ in truth, and who may not agree with everything that they have heard or seen, either. God always has a faithful remnant waiting to come out of the woodworks. Calvary Chapel has done a great deal of good over the years. But as the old adage says, “What have you done for me lately?”

    Revival, Repentance and Reconciliation are always God’s desire and are always possible, if we are truly willing to humble ourselves and follow God’s teachings in all things and make the tough decisions, even when the people who are guilty are people that we love and care for. I pray for revival in Calvary Chapel, but at the end of the day, all I can pray is that God’s will be done. And in the end, it will be.

    Blessings to you all.

    Jameson Taylor

    by once a cc guru on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:42 am

  8. This young hardcore child molester should have been stopped right in his tracks at the start.He should have never been sent to Idaho in the first place or have been allowed to stay in the ministry.Nobody in Costa Mesa wants to take responsibility for its negligence .

    by Blessed by God on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:37 pm

  9. Alex,

    Back when you decided to take a hiatus I thought it was a bad idea. But since you seemed bent in that direction and prepared to defend it to the death I never stated anything. What you are doing since your return is EXACTLY what you should have evolved into. I know of people, whom I love, who are still involved with CC and there is no other way to get the skinny on what is going on. Keep up the good work!!

    To Jameson Taylor, or if anyone can reach him. His point of taking the back seat in a CC and many walking from their call is spot on. J. T. you need to cast aside your fears and pursue the calling God has placed on you. Take it from one who knows. Not easy, many heartaches, God takes care of you beyond your wildest imaginations! God Bless and get out of the pew!!

    by Raymond D. on Jul 17, 2012 at 7:36 am

  10. Yeah…until the last person in a CC leaves the last CC, we and Alex can’t rest. Like we said in Nam, “kill ‘em all and let God sort it out.”

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 17, 2012 at 2:40 pm

  11. Jeff, – I hope you are man enough to admit that your number 10 was extremely inappropriate. You also need to apologies to Alex for insinuating that he is a part of what you stated. Show the Calvary Chapel congregation that a real Christian will admit to their wrong verbal abusiveness towards the innocent when they realize that they have made a mistake. That does not make it correct, but it can make it forgivable.
    God bless you,
    Paul

    by Paul Lytton on Jul 17, 2012 at 11:08 pm

  12. Jeff,

    Nice use of sophistry. The people I am concerned for are the people I know. That would include me, myself and I. This blog provides factual data which I could not gather anywhere else because secrecy has become the norm. Sadly, CC is not the only church organization that is a mess. Sadly, this form of leadership does not produce the type of maturity which would be expected of Eph. 4. Sadly, you exemplify that. Until Christ returns CC will be. My personal experiences with 8 CCs over the last 30 years, 15 if you incude those I know who have had their own negative experiences, coupled together with those of this site, tells me something is seriously wrong. Out of love for those I know I try and keep abreast of what is happening. This blog seems to be the primary source for that. I am NOT the ultimate blogger. I enjoy long conversation face to face. I enjoy methodical discussion. I do not like putting blip thoughts down. It seems incomplete at times. It provides for opportunities for ignoramouses to draw stupid conclusions and make ridiculously sarcastic comments, while displaying their idiocy.

    What I find odd about the ostricicizing actions of leadership is that they will deliver messages on the importance of standing for truth. They wil extole the virtues of Paul, Peter, Stephen, Wyclif, Huss, Luther, Tyndale, etc. etc. Then they will turn around and behave in a manner that exemplifies the the leadership of the church organizations that wanted those men killed!!??

    by Raymond D. on Jul 18, 2012 at 7:28 am

  13. Another Calvary Chapel arrest for child molestation by a Calvary Chapel volunteer who met the young girls (below age 14) through his Calvary Chapel connection.

    Article will be up shortly.

    CCOF just dissolved. Chuck Smith has “officially” removed the link between CCCM and the 2,000 CC’s.

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm

  14. He pretty much would have to dissolve it since he is CCoF.

    by Doug Gilliland on Jul 18, 2012 at 5:58 pm

  15. Sheck:

    http://youtu.be/eWM2joNb9NE

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 5:59 pm

  16. Calvary Chapel is officially dead with the death of CCoF. Organizationally, that is. Organically, perhaps there may be some life left…

    by Doug Gilliland on Jul 18, 2012 at 5:59 pm

  17. Wow … CCOF is dissolved!

    Let’s just let this sink in for a moment … wow …

    by Grateful on Jul 18, 2012 at 7:09 pm

  18. “Organically” …. ?

    Is that what you call what Ed Taylor did when he reorganized 6 CC’s in Colorado, because he could?

    Is self-promotion “organic”?

    by Grateful on Jul 18, 2012 at 7:12 pm

  19. Let me just get this straight ….

    If I’m in a CC, the ONLY person with any say that matters is one person, the Moses Model CC pastor, right? So all the weight of hearing from God, keeping perspective, and providing any oversight – even for themselves – is ONLY the CC pastor?

    Tell me again how a normal, flawed, sinful person can always be right? always be right with God? and always make right decisions?

    by Grateful on Jul 18, 2012 at 7:15 pm

  20. Who cares about CCOF?

    Is Sheck going to apologize or not? If he doesn’t, I move that we vote him off this blog and out of the faith.

    by Hiyam Wright on Jul 18, 2012 at 7:43 pm

  21. Sheck doesn’t need to apologize for anything…other than being an Aztec fan.

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:07 pm

  22. Sheck, what to you make of Calvary Church Planting Network? Do you think they’re taking CCOF’s spot or do they go bye-bye now that CCOF is dissolving?

    http://calvarychurchplanting.org/about/our-process/

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:09 pm

  23. Alex….you hit it on the button. Talk about jumping into the fire. George Bryson leading the movement. Alex, don’t get me started.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm

  24. Sheck, it looks like CCPN (Calvary Church Planting Network) is not Bryson, it looks like it’s Brodersen, Kellen Criswell, Daniel Fusco and some other dudes. Bryson is CCCPM (Calvary Chapel Church Planting Mission).

    If Bryson took over, that would be a sure sign of the Apocalypse :lol:

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:19 pm

  25. Here’s the CCPN “team”:

    http://calvarychurchplanting.org/about/ccpn-team/

    They probably have liability though if they are entering into contracts/agreements and doling out the “official” Dove.

    I’m going to lobby them (if they are really taking over for CCOF and not shutting down along with CCOF) to mandate Open Finances and Child Protections as a precondition to be “approved” to be an official CC.

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:21 pm

  26. Then “yes” I would think it also would, else there is no legal benefit to dissolve CCOF alone. Same issue – BB being on both board’s. Ostensible authority grows from a small dose of actual authority. Here, responsibility (I presume) for starting a church. A father who Takes part in the conception of a child will always be seen as the parent and having authority over the child.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:28 pm

  27. Sheck, yep.

    It’ll be interesting to see what comes out in the wash.

    by Alex on Jul 18, 2012 at 8:43 pm

  28. WFTI (word from the inside) tells me ccof is still together and cccp is concentrating efforts on starting new cc’s.

    Pjay

    by Pjay on Jul 18, 2012 at 9:11 pm

  29. Back at ‘ya

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1dYIWu2ME&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 18, 2012 at 9:54 pm

  30. Jeff, – Regarding my number 11: I truly considered your number 10 EXTREMELY inappropriate. However, I in fact am man enough to admit when I am doing things inappropriately. Although I thought what you said was grossly detrimental to the curious, innocent, congregation members of CCs and read what you said as if I were one of them; I felt you needed to apologize to Alex for insinuating this movement is in alignment of the total wiping out of all CC, which would include the members, both the guilty AND the innocent. I now see that I was not aware of the higher rung of the ladder that you are on here, in awareness of the higher-ups of CC along with your connection with Alex. Since Alex has no problem with that, I apologize to you. However I am also a Christian and disagree with making derogatory statements to the innocent in search for truth. That to me is nothing less than abuse. I may still read here once and a while but I will never make another comment,
    God bless you,
    Paul

    by Paul Lytton on Jul 18, 2012 at 11:11 pm

  31. Okey dokey. Here’s the dealio from “sources” who are solid. One had a small part of the puzzle (CCOF dissolving), another has the whole Enchilada as they say. CCOF is being dissolved by a Board that will control Calvary Chapel as a new Denomination, separate from CCCM. The Board is made up of 4 to 5 big CC pastors including Greg Laurie and Skip Heitzig. Brian Brodersen is getting CCCM, but not until Chuck croaks. BB is doing CCPN separate from the new CC Board/Denom. Seems to be a power struggle going on there.

    by Alex on Jul 19, 2012 at 8:25 am

  32. I feel like I am reading the newspaper a year in advance on this blog!

    As Super 8 Motel wrote on blog Sept. 24th, 2011.

    5. as solice to some, he will cause CCOF to be dissolved.

    by Andrew on Jul 19, 2012 at 9:19 am

  33. Andrew…this is ‘source’ material. CC cannot contain the amount of information leaking out of their Papal system. You probably will hear it here first.

    by Bryan on Jul 19, 2012 at 9:36 am

  34. Paul:

    Sorry for my delay in responding to your inquiry and request. My intial response was directed at this post:

    “Alex…Back when you decided to take a hiatus I thought it was a bad idea. But since you seemed bent in that direction and prepared to defend it to the death I never stated anything. What you are doing since your return is EXACTLY what you should have evolved into. I know of people, whom I love, who are still involved with CC and there is no other way to get the skinny on what is going on. Keep up the good work!!”

    First…to the extent I have offended you (or others) with the tone and that my sarcasm was misdirected or improper, I apologize.

    Second…candidly I cannot see the practical need for and benefits of what I perceive as an increasing biased and slanted perspective held by many that CC is rotten to the core or that CCCM is rotten to the core. I have the right to state this as I have made myself clear over the years in my thoughts on PC and his actions as well as the general issues of the Moses Model, accountability, etc. That being said, I know for a fact that may CCSP’s do not follow all the “Distinctives”, nor do they follow lock step in the Moses Model of church governance. I currently attend a CC and still sit on the Board of a mega-CC, which are Spirit led and not led by any “movement leader” apart from Jesus Christ…period.

    It cannot be said that I have not suffered hurt from my experience at the mothership and those who know me or read my posts through the years here (and elsewhere) know of this as I, like so many, many others expereinced hurt, rejection, loss of fellowship, shunning, etc. as we worked our way to and through the healing process. Having gone through that experience, when put in the relief of what Scripture calls the church and its leaders to be, is a horrific place to be….for me almost leading me not only from the church, but also from the faith. That being said, and looking back on both the time of my service as well as the time and events associated with my healing, I now have a different view than before. It is this:

    CC is not all contemptable and apart from God’s will in doing the work of ministry. Chuck is not all evil personified. I wish that many here would consider his journey, family issues, fallability, desire to protect his son, etc. that in the final analysis identify him as a sinner like the rest of us. God give me the ability to withstand the adulation and expectations thrust upon him. He has done well…and he has done poorly.

    Candidly, my best years were working for him and I am glad he was able to identify my calling, despite what other’s thought (Larry Taylor, Rolph, virtually every employee at CCCM and no doubt a cast of hundreds, if not thousands in CC in general). Let’s see….an abusive husband, an attorney, no formal training in ministry, no experience at CCCM, etc. Just the qualifications every CCSP desires. (in all candor, I do have to admit that I came cheap…a PC requisite…(sometimes I wonder if “cheap” to Chuck meant “God is leading”). Chuck gave me the freedom to be led by the Spirit and be directed as such and led as such in all the tasks and roles I got to play at CCCM. I might add PC was the one who instructed me to design, implement and run a policy and framework for protecting childtren at CCCM, including criminal background checks, etc., which I am assuming is still in place after its creation some 10 years ago. I will never forget that this 86-year old man, with a declining memory and despite many stupid things I did under his ministry and after I left, gave me grace and, to boot, asked me to forgive him for some of the actions and inactions he took that effected me in the most profound and significant ways…enough cumulatively to cause me to leave his ministry. I wish it had not been that way and come to all that. But he humbled himself and asked for forgivensss. Given the work of Christ at the cross and its implications, versed in the NT epistles, and my love for this man, I could not ask for more from him. Wish it had happened for Alex and others also.

    My point, I wish people would paint with a little less broader brush. Clearly there are some systematic changes required, but please before you cast the first stone, ask yourself what church denomination or otherwise can this not be said of? To denigrate and lump them all together demeans and discourages those employee servants who labor on in CC, including CCCM, and who do so in the face of both leadership issues in their church as well as facing the hurling epithets from those who left. Objectiveism, facts and the like should be brought to the fore. I pray for a more seasoned, balanced and graceful view of CC and that it be seem as the body of Christ…a imperfect bride
    not yet delivered.

    Please do not take this apologetic to mean that it should lessen or cover over the hurt of many, the abuse of chuldren, etc. But CC is not on fire and it does not to be shoveled and watered out of existence. It does need some selective burning and rebuilding, with a large dose of prayer, objective and scriptural criticism.

    Finally, and for those of you long time bloggers here, some closing great one-liners from my Dad, the great Shecky Greene:

    “Was that suit made to order? Where were you at the time?”
    “You have a ready wit. Tell me when it’s ready.” and lastly….
    “Why do Jewish divorces cost so much? They’re worth it.”

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 19, 2012 at 1:30 pm

  35. Re: Sheck said,

    “My point, I wish people would paint with a little less broader brush. Clearly there are some systematic changes required, but please before you cast the first stone, ask yourself what church denomination or otherwise can this not be said of? To denigrate and lump them all together demeans and discourages those employee servants who labor on in CC, including CCCM, and who do so in the face of both leadership issues in their church as well as facing the hurling epithets from those who left. Objectiveism, facts and the like should be brought to the fore. I pray for a more seasoned, balanced and graceful view of CC and that it be seem as the body of Christ…a imperfect bride
    not yet delivered.”

    Sheck, I hear what you are saying; though when I read this (as well as the others who’ve written the same idea) I always feel like the point that many of us are making is being misunderstood a bit. But I’ll just speak for myself for now and others can speak for themselves, if they wish:

    My point in participating in publicly bringing the issues to the fore is not because I think CC has a corner on corruption and sin, rather, it’s because there is no venue to deal with it when it comes up due to the Moses Model/no accountability style of leadership. (I note that there are some CC;s, though I’ve only heard of 12 out of 2000, who have implemented accountability for leadership/finances.)

    I think it makes a huge difference when a denom/movement has a structure that includes accountability checks and balances. It’s not that sin can’t still prevail, at times, it’s that there’s a chance of righting wrongs. Without such, sin can not only continue, but it’s encouraged and a culture of wrongs is birthed and grows. I believe it is needful to stand up against such a structure for the sake of Christ and for the protection of the sheep.

    When an organization such as CC gives the impression that you can trust the brand name wherever you go, then the public/attenders need to know that is not the case. It is prevalent that most people who attend have actually thought that if something went wrong that they’d have recourse by someone higher up the CC chain … which is false (except for the exceptions … but it’s not built into the system.)

    This is the same basic progression that happened to the Fundamental Independent Baptists, it’s just not as well documented because it was before the internet.

    by Grateful on Jul 20, 2012 at 11:27 am

  36. Grateful, I agree with your seasoned approach and balance. For one, I was relieved when I found this site because I felt like I finally had a voice in a system that gives no voice to anyone but senior pastors. Yes, there are some good folks and teachers and pastors in CC but the Moses Model system is not only unbiblical but it invites these criticisms by its very nature. I have heard my CC pastor say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely yet he continues to hold onto his Moses Model authority and won’t let go like somehow he is above it all and the corruption would never touch him. I don’t want to paint a broad brush and say all CC pastors are corrupt but what is becoming crystal clear to me is that the system is broken and this ste is a referandum by many in the movement as a testimony to this broken system. Grateful is right about the fundamental Independant Baptist church.

    by andrew on Jul 20, 2012 at 1:00 pm

  37. Thanks, Andrew.

    I want to make sure that it’s understood that I know there are some exceptions, though I understand they are actually very few in a sea of 2000+ CC’s. The Moses Model would have to be forsaken with the finances and decisions made by more than just one man, with checks and balances. The wounded would have to have some measure of recourse built into the system, as well.

    The French have a saying, “The exception confirms the rule.”

    The same was true with the FIB’s. If you were involved with that sub-culture, then you would have much clearer vision as to how CC’s are really just like the way they used to be (they just look cooler and have more money,) how entrenched that culture was, and how the pride went before their fall.

    That entire movement was greatly humbled. Many who survived it thank God for the chastening.

    by Grateful on Jul 20, 2012 at 3:44 pm

  38. Grateful

    I don’t disagree with your points, especially the Moses Model, accountability, finances, child protection, etc. And bringing these out publicly is important not only to inform and validate, but also to give comfort and rconfirmation to those who have been abused or hurt and maybe they belive they have in some way brought it about.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm

  39. Sheck, good balance…and I can’t disagree.

    by Alex on Jul 20, 2012 at 11:05 pm

  40. I’m trying to place my finger on why I don’t think that “broad brushing” CC is really wrong. Here’s my best attempt today:I

    My impression …

    The Presbyterians (now there’s a broad brush!) agree that their denomination has been in trouble for decades (for theological reasons, as they have an excellent governmental structure in place.) I don’t hear them speaking in a defensive manner about their specific church or about their denomination; instead they openly admit the known issues. The net result appears to be a humility and commitment to pressing on to do right in their present circumstances.

    I admit I have no idea if my exposure to the Presbyterians (including all Pres. denominations) gives me an accurate picture or not, it’s just my impression I’ve seen over the years and in a few states, though still very limited.

    What I hear in CC (where I’ve had broad exposure over many years) is a defensive posture, both from leaders in sin, leaders who love identifying with the movement, and those who think they are attending the few “good” CC’s with accountability (they may be, it’s just that many tell me they are and I already know first hand info that they are not; so I’m skeptical.)

    It’s this defensive posture that comes across as not grasping just how entrenched these CC issues have been allowed to become due to a structure that does not allow for any recourse or course correction.

    Sheck, I respect what you’ve done and what I think you are trying to do. I hear you when you say you go to a good CC and are on the board of a good CC. I do hope they have a different church government structure than what the name CC stands for. I do hope they have a different culture than what the CC name stands for. But when any church carries the name of a denom/movement that has earned being characterized by it’s bad issues, then it’s needful for the people and leaders of that church to also have a humility that recognizes these things are not only true, but that you can’t expect others (especially the wounded) to carefully point out that your church is not like the majority of churches also carry that name.

    I’m sure this could be made clearer, but that’s my best shot for now.

    by Grateful on Jul 21, 2012 at 8:51 am

  41. Grateful-

    You hit the nail on the head when you mention “defensive posture”.
    At first I wrote “defensive position” until I looked again at the wording you used.

    When I think of your wording, I think of someone standing with their hands on their hips refusing to budge. The posture is that they will not be moved from their point of view.
    The frustration for me is when you give someone the facts, and rather than budge from their “posture”, and allow the truth to resonate in their mind, they have already made a decision of “defense” as you say, so no matter what is heard, it is filtered through that mindset and will never get in. Kind of like spam mail.

    That has been my personal frustration.

    Just awhile ago, in a parking lot, I had 2 JW’s approach me.
    I used to spend at least 1/2 hour reasoning with them.
    It is the same “postural position”. They will not be moved.

    I wrote 3 posts yesterday and deleted them all.
    It is very hard to express the frustration involved with those who defend CC without being able to, in their mind, receive any truths about any given situation.

    It all comes back to the fact that we are all sinners, so we can excuse the sin in favor of grace.

    by Hannah on Jul 21, 2012 at 9:17 am

  42. Yes, Hannah; though I do think there are two kinds of people with a defensive posture (to overgeneralize here.)

    1. A person is defensive of CC no matter what; and do not receive or admit even proven facts. They stand with their fingers in their ears saying, “La, la, la, la, I don’t believe you!” To simply acknowledge the real issues is threatening to them, because their association with CC is somehow interwoven with their ego or need to be right. (That’s pretty harsh, but overstated to make a point.)

    2. A person is defensive for another reason. It’s not that they don’t see the very real issues, and that they haven’t even been wounded by them themselves; rather they are defending the good in CC that they have/are experiencing. They don’t want all CC pastors and all CC churches made out to be the same as the worst ones.

    I’m sure Sheck is in the second category and I admire his continued desire to stand up for the truth. What I am pointing out by talking about a “defensive posture” is that even those in the second category, need to take a humble stance (since they know the problems) and recognize that comes with the territory when a church is carry the name that is characterized by some bad stuff; instead of telling the many who have experienced the widespread, systemic issues that they should not broad brush the movement.

    I personally think that CC has earned the broad brushing, and I can’t really even see it as broad brushing since the percentage of those CC’s who’ve eschewed the Moses Model, implemented accountability and open finances, and cleaned out the culture of abuse is so small.

    It seems wrong to put the onus on the people who see the systemic nature of the CC problems to point out the few who may actually have somehow designed their church structure and culture so differently from the roots and the rest of the CC’s that they are not characterized by the bad stuff. Seems to me, that the onus is on the CC’s who run things differently than the CC distinctives tell them to, and have a different govt. than the CC brand stands for, and a different culture than CC is known for, to humbly admit the systemic issues and acknowledge they are trying to do it differently, even calling for reforms in the movement.

    by Grateful on Jul 21, 2012 at 10:06 am

  43. Good points, Grateful!

    I think there is another category as well – probably the most dangerous, IMV. The pastors/church/movement is personified as always being the voice/work of God. It causes intense cognitive/emotional/spiritual confusion to wrap ones head and heart around the contradictions. It is easier to continue to trust and defend than acknowledge and accept that maybe leaders/movements are not the voice of God to this generation.

    In some ways not unlike reconciling a loving God that allows tremendous evil in the world. One chooses to put it under the umbrella of His (their) ways are higher than ours. If there are problems, inconsistencies, we decide it is best to leave them in the hands of the Lord (or His “anointed”) trusting they will do what is best.

    My 2 cents worth anyway.

    by Anne on Jul 21, 2012 at 1:32 pm

  44. “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.” Friedrich Nietzche

    by Anne on Jul 21, 2012 at 1:44 pm

  45. Well said, Anne!

    by Grateful on Jul 21, 2012 at 7:18 pm

  46. Jeff at 34

    Thank you for explaining the misunderstanding. However, How do you get from my statement the thought “Yeah…until the last person in a CC leaves the last CC, we and Alex can’t rest. Like we said in Nam, “kill ‘em all and let God sort it out.” from my concern for people that I know that attend CC’s? Let me explain my broad brush attitude (by your definition). I have been involved with 8 CC’s since 1981. I will not go into all the details of the ills I have been through. I was dyed in the wool CC. There was no other church that understood what it meant to be one. Everytime something went wrong I isolated the events to that one location. Each time I went straight to the top of leadership to include CC Golden Springs, CCFTL and CCCM. Only to find, to use your term, that the core was just as rotten. Even after all that I still held out hope for a sound CC to exist. I went to visit a friend who moved to Colorado Springs and attends RMC. He said he enjoyed the church. I later find out from Grateful it’s leadership has serious issues and that Grateful knows them personally. Ooops, my bad. Apparently its not the one that all those mysterious people who say that there is a good CC out there attend. I have family in North Idaho with small nieces and nephews. Surely they will be safe out there. Nope, they aren’t safe there either. They have attended both CC’s named in the suit. Maybe I should tell them not to worry, reform is on the way. Oh, I have family in So. Carolina going to Lexington CC. They just had a new baby girl. Let me see, problems in Cali. problems in Florida, problems in Las Vegas, problems in Idaho, problems in Colorado, not to mention all the problems throughout the nation and the world that have been mentioned on this site. In many cases those that mirror my very own to the degree I thought they were plagiarizing me.

    The way I see it Jeff is that I demonize Alex for moving me out of my blissful ignorance (even though my own personal experiences are enough for me). And shame on you Grateful. I was finally convinced I had found the one true CC. (that is sarcasm). I can extol the virtues of CC as common to any other church organization allowing those I know and love to attend on their own knowledge and merits. Then I can practice my skills of prayer and consoling when their family members fall victim. Telling them that I was aware but didn’t want to disturb their bliss.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 22, 2012 at 8:24 am

  47. That’s EXACTLY why we had start warning people, Raymond! We were comforting and counseling so many who were running wounded and bleeding that we knew we had to tell people.

    I also found myself asking those who left before me, why they never warned me? They gave the standard answers, but it felt very unloving for them to protect themselves and not care for those left behind.

    by Grateful on Jul 22, 2012 at 6:03 pm

  48. Just to be clear, we are talking about verifiable, habitual, unrepented sin.

    by Grateful on Jul 22, 2012 at 7:39 pm

  49. Raymond D,
    *gulp* I know most of those you have loosely referenced. Lexington is small, but more messed up than most four times their size.
    I’m so sorry for your issues and painful experiences.

    Blessings to you as you continue in your faithful walk toward truth.

    Pjay

    by Pjay on Jul 22, 2012 at 9:46 pm

  50. Grateful,

    Unrepentent and practiced sin. What I don’t understand and have yet to hear a good response too is; How can leadership of other CCs see what is going wrong and yet feel no concern for the flock by warning them. Paul stated that for 3.5 years he warned Ephesus with tears that there would be wolves rising amongst the sheep. It is the responsibility of shepherds to protect sheep, not the reputations of their organizations. If I have a lightbulb that doesn’t produce light I throw it away. If salt doesn’t provide flavor it is useless, if a pastor doesn’t protect the sheep……….. he is an hireling and doesn’t deserve the position. Oh, I forgot about the passage in scripture where it discusses reform and how suddenly everyone comes to the realizarion of what they should have been doing all along, biblically. They suddenly understand because man made the rules. Its always easier to understand man’s guidelines rather than obeying God’s.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 22, 2012 at 9:54 pm

  51. Pjay

    Thanks for the heads up.

    J Sheck, Do you see what I mean. CCLex wasn’t on the radar, but now it is. Isn’t it amazing how that happens? I wish I knew of the CC you attend and the one you are on the board of. I am sure that they speak out strongly against the ills of their organization to the degree that they intend on changing their names, right? After all, if God is doing the work due to their obedience, why the need to use the name CC? It would appear to be a detriment at this point. Wouldn’t you agree? The only real benefit of flying the CC banner would be marketing and any sound church wouldn’t be into that, would they?

    by Raymond D. on Jul 22, 2012 at 10:28 pm

  52. Raymond D: I do not disagree. Please read my two missives above with one repeated below:

    “I don’t disagree with your points, especially the Moses Model, accountability, finances, child protection, etc. And bringing these out publicly is important not only to inform and validate, but also to give comfort and rconfirmation to those who have been abused or hurt and maybe they belive they have in some way brought it about.”

    My concern is is expressed in my first missive, which does not conflict with what is shared here, but merely points out that there are exceptions…a remnant if you will. Think of Nicodemus. No doubt that his affiliation desired to be fairly broadly castigated. Yet, he was repentent and I beleive came to the Lord. Proof is that he gave up all his reputation to question Jesus’ trial and due process and, moreover, asked for his body off the crosss and no doubt washed it (as was ritually required) before burial.

    You see there is a balance, but I am not in disagreement with you. It is just that some bloggers paint a very borad brush..either out of their ignorance, hate, or plain desire to pile on. As I said, if I misread your intents and “painting,” I apologize. But the tenor of this blog and its credibility rests in truth, facts, warning, exhorting, comforting…etc. as Alex and many do here. But not every CC chuch is wrapped up in that although I agree with you a large majority are. Watch what happens when PC passes. The remnant likely will leave the CC movement, or at a minimum, address their confromance to the distinctives.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm

  53. The issue is not changing their name. The issue is where do they stand on accoutability, transparency, child abuse and protections, etc.? They do not consider CC as “their organization,” and keep their names out of both congition as well as respect to PC. These two churches (and I am sure other CC’s) use the name because it has been their legacy and their church in their own communities, stand on their own fruit and the name CC does not bring the negative connotations so many have brought to it name and disgrace. Not like in SoCal. Most where I go barely know of PC and know him as just one of many radio bible teachers.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 23, 2012 at 3:50 pm

  54. Jeff,

    Thank you for the dialogue. It says volumes regarding your willingness to have meaningful discourse. So let me begin by addressing your points. Let’s begin at the subject of the remnant. In the case of the biblically defined remnant there are two primary categories; those that reside within the culture that exists and falls victim to the malbehavior of the masses when judgement comes. Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego are examples of this. The second would be recognized as those who, due to their position, witness, or status would have to be hidden such as those in 1 Kings 18:4. You could qualify Noah within this group, being separated from the at large culture by God. In all cases the remnant makes the decision to not bow the knee in compromise even upon pain of death. You seem well studied so I will spare the examples. I am in agreement that Nicodemus would appear to be moving towards understanding Jesus as the Christ and giving his life to Him. Your example of Nic supports the above statement. He was willing to give up his reputation within the dominant culture of the Sanhedrin. A willful sacrifice on his part for the truth.

    This is where I would respectfully disagree with you. The remnant always finds itself in danger from its commitment to the truth. It’s characterisics are exemplified in its unwillingness to go with the popular culture to the degree that its very behavior and testimony expresses it. In other words, they stood apart from the crowd to the degree they were identifiable. The remnant would be categorized as God’s sub-culture in a corrupt environment.

    Regarding Nic’s sub culture; the impact of the knowledge of Christ and His finished work on the cross had its work upon the Jewish leadership (Acts 6:7, 15) you see that they removed themselves from their former culture to walk according to the faith. They did not stay in it and try to reform it.

    In Revelation, Jesus’ address of the Thyatira shows a recognition of those who are not holding to false doctrine and in Sardis those that have not defiled their garments. In both cases it should be understood that the address of the city wide church (His Body, His bride) should not be interpreted as one church, one location, as we think of it today.

    Regarding your comments of ignorance, and wanting to remain truthful, factual etc. etc. I will avoid becoming overly sensitive I think that you may be insinuating me into that group.

    It is late in the day for me. What is PC? I will address your #53 A little later. It will help to explain my position further.

    Jeff, I mean this sincerely, it is refreshing having this type of dialogue.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 23, 2012 at 8:26 pm

  55. Raymond

    PC is Pastor Chuck. I am not Placing you within a group that I consider ignorant. That ignorance arises from their summations of a situation or belief which is either not based upon facts or is wholly opposite of the facts as they are aware of them. Many people here posture or pontificate to state a desired end…CC and it’s leaders and congregants are rotten. They ignore the facts or do not seek them since they would reach another end. This could be due to the bias they have from their own experience, hurt or otherwise. I get it…been there, done that. But that did not mean that the conclusions and broad based opinions are correct.

    by Jeff Sheckstein on Jul 23, 2012 at 9:57 pm

  56. Jeff,

    Couldn’t agree more. I loved just about everything of CC including those whom I stood up to. I am not the kind of person who seeks discord. However, I can’t stand by the side while truth, or weaker brethren are trampled. I will conclude that our hearts are knitted together in thought though our approach may carry variations. Let me respond to your 53.

    Regarding your comments of CCs that are unfamiliar with PC and the organization and the name being their legacy. I was in a position as a teacher and head of the Discipleship Ministry of one such church. Sadly, it was so off the wall that I left it due to its heretical nature. The majority of its leadership left. That was CC Meadow Mesa in North Las Vegas. I had conversations with Roger Wing about this. He poo poo’d the whole thing away. Once again,pastor in control of the money, no board, no accountability, broken record. There is a reality that exists. The name CC with all its radio personalities is a marketable name. I have seen that occur time and time again. Couple it with a dynamic personality and you have a successful franchise. But I will avoid the broad brush myopic. We understand all of the pitfalls which have been discussed. Sometimes to ad nauseum. So I will avoid the prolegemena on the well described narrative. Let’s move into positive waters.

    Jesus tells us in Matt. 28:19, 20 what is known as the great commission. But if you will look at the passage through its original language you will notice that discipling is the emphasis, not conversion. CC as do many churches, place its emphasis on conversion not discipleship. Throughout Acts we see that conversion is the Lords job. He includes mature Christians in the work of discipleship. I know we preach. I know conversion is born fruit of it. But the desired result is discipleship. Take a look at Acts 6. Problem arises, leaders ask disciples to get involved. They themselves must have been discipled because the leadership tasks them with problem resolution. 7 men are chosen. Everyones happy. Vs 7 the disciples multiplied, not the converts.

    Bound within discipleship is relationship. The jews used to say that a masters disciples were covered in the dust drawn up by his feet. In other words, they were always closely on his tail. Discipleship communicates relationship. Relationship communicates accountability. Accountability communicates transparancy, transparancy communicates humility, humility communicates self denial and carrying your cross daily. And that communicates being transformed into the image of Christ. Dr Lewis Chafer wrote in the preface to his series on systematic theology (copy written 1948), he stated that the church was failing to disciple. How could it be that the very thing we were called to do is the very thing we are failing at. A redefinition of the passage puts emphasis on conversion and eliminates the need for discipleship, which eliminates the need for relationship, which eliminates the need for ………… you get the picture? Pastors that don’t have time to spend with their staff because well, “You don’t understand how busy I am”. Busy? Doing what? You are supposed to be busy going about the Lord’s business and he was about people. He gave his life, his comfort, his all to reach people. He was an open book, even by his own testimony. An unwillingness to involve oneself in the process of discipleship is to distort what the role of a leader is in the body of Christ. Eph 4. So how unified was the church? Acts 2:42-47 expresses that. That unity meant there was discipleship (We know this by Acts 8), which meant there was relationship, which meant there was accountability, etc., etc. And the unity resulted in more being converted by the Lord and becoming disciples Acts 6:7.

    So lets talk reform. Does reform mean discipleship? Or does it mean checks and balances to hopefully insure picking the correct guy/girl for the job. Acts 6:3 tells us that the first qualification was honest report. That would include relationship, which would include accountability, which would include transparency, which would include……….. etc., etc. Reform never, (I know, broad brush statement) changes the heart of man. It only makes him look for ways around the intent of the reformative rule. The pastor of CCMM was called on the carpet by the husband of the woman in charge of the children’s ministry. The pastor had raised a man of poor repute to a position of leadership. In the conversation the passages in 1 Tim. were brought up. The pastor slammed his hand on the bible and said, “This isn’t cookie cutter, its merely a guide.” If we see the distortion of scripture to find the interpretation to mean something other than its truest intent then why won’t they take the rules that man has made and do the same thing. They are already casting God’s word aside. Why, when God’s word carries the very authority of His Spirit, man chooses to disobey, should we think that they will adhere to the rules developed by man?

    Take a look at what God says in Isa. 24:5 “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant.” Is God’s word so insufficiant that the addition of man’s rules will make it complete? I think not.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 23, 2012 at 11:51 pm

  57. (repeat of one caught in moderation)

    Jeff,
    Couldn’t agree more. I loved just about everything of CC including those whom I stood up to. I am not the kind of person who seeks discord. However, I can’t stand by the side while truth, or weaker brethren are trampled. I will conclude that our hearts are knitted together in thought though our approach may carry variations. Let me respond to your 53.
    Regarding your comments of CCs that are unfamiliar with PC and the organization and the name being their legacy. I was in a position as a teacher and head of the Discipleship Ministry of one such church. Sadly, it was so off the wall that I left it due to its heretical nature. The majority of its leadership left. That was CC Meadow Mesa in North Las Vegas. I had conversations with Roger Wing about this. He poo poo’d the whole thing away. Once again,pastor in control of the money, no board, no accountability, broken record. There is a reality that exists. The name CC with all its radio personalities is a marketable name. I have seen that occur time and time again. Couple it with a dynamic personality and you have a successful franchise. But I will avoid the broad brush myopic. We understand all of the pitfalls which have been discussed. Sometimes to ad nauseum. So I will avoid the prolegemena on the well described narrative. Let’s move into positive waters.
    Jesus tells us in Matt. 28:19, 20 what is known as the great commission. But if you will look at the passage through its original language you will notice that discipling is the emphasis, not conversion. CC as do many churches, place its emphasis on conversion not discipleship. Throughout Acts we see that conversion is the Lords job. He includes mature Christians in the work of discipleship. I know we preach. I know conversion is born fruit of it. But the desired result is discipleship. Take a look at Acts 6. Problem arises, leaders ask disciples to get involved. They themselves must have been discipled because the leadership tasks them with problem resolution. 7 men are chosen. Everyones happy. Vs 7 the disciples multiplied, not the converts.
    Bound within discipleship is relationship. The jews used to say that a masters disciples were covered in the dust drawn up by his feet. In other words, they were always closely on his tail. Discipleship communicates relationship. Relationship communicates accountability. Accountability communicates transparancy, transparancy communicates humility, humility communicates self denial and carrying your cross daily. And that communicates being transformed into the image of Christ. Dr Lewis Chafer wrote in the preface to his series on systematic theology (copy written 1948), he stated that the church was failing to disciple. How could it be that the very thing we were called to do is the very thing we are failing at. A redefinition of the passage puts emphasis on conversion and eliminates the need for discipleship, which eliminates the need for relationship, which eliminates the need for ………… you get the picture? Pastors that don’t have time to spend with their staff because well, “You don’t understand how busy I am”. Busy? Doing what? You are supposed to be busy going about the Lord’s business and he was about people. He gave his life, his comfort, his all to reach people. He was an open book, even by his own testimony. An unwillingness to involve oneself in the process of discipleship is to distort what the role of a leader is in the body of Christ. Eph 4. So how unified was the church? Acts 2:42-47 expresses that. That unity meant there was discipleship (We know this by Acts 8), which meant there was relationship, which meant there was accountability, etc., etc. And the unity resulted in more being converted by the Lord and becoming disciples Acts 6:7.
    So lets talk reform. Does reform mean discipleship? Or does it mean checks and balances to hopefully insure picking the correct guy/girl for the job. Acts 6:3 tells us that the first qualification was honest report. That would include relationship, which would include accountability, which would include transparency, which would include……….. etc., etc. Reform never, (I know, broad brush statement) changes the heart of man. It only makes him look for ways around the intent of the reformative rule. The pastor of CCMM was called on the carpet by the husband of the woman in charge of the children’s ministry. The pastor had raised a man of poor repute to a position of leadership. In the conversation the passages in 1 Tim. were brought up. The pastor slammed his hand on the bible and said, “This isn’t cookie cutter, its merely a guide.” If we see the distortion of scripture to find the interpretation to mean something other than its truest intent then why won’t they take the rules that man has made and do the same thing. They are already casting God’s word aside. Why, when God’s word carries the very authority of His Spirit, man chooses to disobey, should we think that they will adhere to the rules developed by man?
    Take a look at what God says in Isa. 24:5 “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant.” Is God’s word so insufficiant that the addition of man’s rules will make it complete? I think not.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 24, 2012 at 7:05 am

  58. Mr. Moderators,

    I have one caught in moderation.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 24, 2012 at 7:15 am

  59. Jeff,

    Couldn’t agree more. I loved just about everything of CC including those whom I stood up to. I am not the kind of person who seeks discord. However, I can’t stand by the side while truth, or weaker brethren are trampled. I will conclude that our hearts are knitted together in thought though our approach may carry variations. Let me respond to your 53.

    Regarding your comments of CCs that are unfamiliar with PC and the organization and the name being their legacy. I was in a position as a teacher and head of the Discipleship Ministry of one such church. Sadly, it was so off the wall that I left it due to its heretical nature. The majority of its leadership left. That was CC Meadow Mesa in North Las Vegas. I had conversations with Roger Wing about this. He poo poo’d the whole thing away. Once again,pastor in control of the money, no board, no accountability, broken record. There is a reality that exists. The name CC with all its radio personalities is a marketable name. I have seen that occur time and time again. Couple it with a dynamic personality and you have a successful franchise. But I will avoid the broad brush myopic. We understand all of the pitfalls which have been discussed. Sometimes to ad nauseum. So I will avoid the prolegemena on the well described narrative. Let’s move into positive waters.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 24, 2012 at 4:28 pm

  60. cont’d

    Bound within discipleship is relationship. The jews used to say that a masters disciples were covered in the dust drawn up by his feet. In other words, they were always closely on his tail. Discipleship communicates relationship. Relationship communicates accountability. Accountability communicates transparancy, transparancy communicates humility, humility communicates self denial and carrying your cross daily. And that communicates being transformed into the image of Christ. Dr Lewis Chafer wrote in the preface to his series on systematic theology (copy written 1948), he stated that the church was failing to disciple. How could it be that the very thing we were called to do is the very thing we are failing at. A redefinition of the passage puts emphasis on conversion and eliminates the need for discipleship, which eliminates the need for relationship, which eliminates the need for ………… you get the picture? Pastors that don’t have time to spend with their staff because well, “You don’t understand how busy I am”. Busy? Doing what? You are supposed to be busy going about the Lord’s business and he was about people. He gave his life, his comfort, his all to reach people. He was an open book, even by his own testimony. An unwillingness to involve oneself in the process of discipleship is to distort what the role of a leader is in the body of Christ. Eph 4. So how unified was the church? Acts 2:42-47 expresses that. That unity meant there was discipleship (We know this by Acts 8), which meant there was relationship, which meant there was accountability, etc., etc. And the unity resulted in more being converted by the Lord and becoming disciples Acts 6:7.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 24, 2012 at 4:29 pm

  61. cont’d

    Jesus tells us in Matt. 28:19, 20 what is known as the great commission. But if you will look at the passage through its original language you will notice that discipling is the emphasis, not conversion. CC as do many churches, place its emphasis on conversion not discipleship. Throughout Acts we see that conversion is the Lords job. He includes mature Christians in the work of discipleship. I know we preach. I know conversion is born fruit of it. But the desired result is discipleship. Take a look at Acts 6. Problem arises, leaders ask disciples to get involved. They themselves must have been discipled because the leadership tasks them with problem resolution. 7 men are chosen. Everyones happy. Vs 7 the disciples multiplied, not the converts.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 24, 2012 at 4:30 pm

  62. Jeff,

    Disregard the others after #56. they are complete or partial duplicates of 56. all were caught in moderation.

    by Raymond D. on Jul 24, 2012 at 8:27 pm

  63. Your article provides verified helpful to us. It’s very informative and you’re obviously extremely knowledgeable in this region. You get popped my personal sight for you to varying views on this particular matter together with intriquing, notable and strong written content.

    by Xanax on Feb 24, 2013 at 12:29 pm

  64. Thanks a lot for sharing this with all people you actually recognize what you are talking about!

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    by mathematics on Feb 28, 2013 at 1:44 pm

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