Calvary Chapel Abuse



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Introducing “officially” the New Calvary Chapel “Association”

The "New" Calvary Chapel "Association": Same 'ol same 'ol or a move in the right direction?

Well, you heard it here first, before the shiny new website announcing the dissolution of CCOF and the creation of some sort of new Board (turns out they’re calling it a Council, same difference) to run the Calvary Chapel now seemingly Denomination (hard not to call it that now).

I am in receipt of some specifics that we’ll discuss and Andrew has already shared some things he’s read in the “stuff”.

Personally, I’m all for Calvary Chapel Leadership taking responsibility for their Denomination, rather than propagating Chuck Smith’s recent lying that they’re all 100% independent. There is clearly an Ecclesiastical Hierarchy and Structure…and the guys in charge should deal with beefs in the System. I’ve got a serious situation for them to deal with right off the bat: The Bob Grenier Calvary Chapel Visalia situation.

We’ll see if the “New” Calvary Chapel will handle the situation any better than the old CC. My guess is it’s just a shiny new paint job on a rusted out clunker…and not much has changed, other than the Marketing and PR got a little better.

Time will tell.

New Calvary Chapel Association website here: http://calvarychapelassociation.com/

Posted by on August 16, 2012.

Categories: Uncategorized

86 Responses

  1. Just left a message at Calvary Chapel Modesto for Damian Kyle.

    We’ll see if he even calls back.

    Kyle is the Regional HCCSPIC (Head CCSP In Charge) of the Northern Cal Region that includes Bob Grenier.

    …and just left a message for Don McClure at the new Calvary Chapel Association office.

    by Alex on Aug 16, 2012 at 12:22 pm

  2. Last October 2011, in “Calvary Chapel: What’s been your experience? Good, bad or ugly?”, I posted my ugly experience at Calvary Chapel Bartlett pastored by John Pillivant (see #295) in which Pillivant and his board of directors were provided with court documents and transcripts proving CC-Bartlett’s support for unscriptural divorce and “respecter of persons” bias which, in turn, had given rise to adultery in the church, a failure to confront this sin, and Pillivnat bearing of false witness in court.

    Moving forward to Alex’s blog of August 3, 2012, he included CC “good guy” Don McClure’s correspondence on the dissolution of the old CCOF (Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship) and creation of its replacement called the Calvary Chapel Association (CCA).

    McClure stated, “There will no longer be a central headquarters or anything like that. The leadership of the movement has been regionalized throughout the United States. Each region has a leader of a team. The leader is listed and his team members are listed as well.”

    Listed among the 14 regions is:

    Deep South: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia
    Leader – Sandy Adams
    Troy Warner
    Paul Lester
    John Pillivant
    Jerry McAnulty
    Mark Kirk
    John Hoppe

    John Pillivant? Hmmmm. This is truly letting the fox into the hen house. It’s also southern good ole boy too, because Pillivant is Troy Warner’s brother-in-law (they married two sisters). But moving on…

    Here are some observations:
    1. The new CCA must have officers to be a legal entity, so we’re back to the Moses Model.
    2. The Moses Model is Episcopal in church governance as stated by Chuck Smith in Calvary Chapel Distinctives **.
    3. Episcopal governance is hierarchical in structure with the chief authority over a congregation residing in a bishop and is patterned after Roman Catholic Church structure.
    4. Episcopal church government was the only form of church organization until the Reformation.
    5. Reformation government is presbyterian and congregational based on plurality of co-equal elders.
    6. Calvary Chapel will become increasingly catholic in character and stress the Arminian traditions of the Roman Catholic Church.
    7. Based on local church pastor’s authority autonomy, and a lack of accountability, I submit the following title changes.
    a. CCA = Holy See
    b. CCA President or General Manager = Pope
    c. Regional Leader / Sandy Adams = Cardinal
    d. Regional Committee / John Pillivant / Troy Warner = Archbiships or Diocesan Bishops
    e. Local Pastors = Bishops

    ** http://www.calvarychapelportland.com/ccd.pdf (Page 17) “So when we came to Calvary Chapel and established the bylaws, we didn’t create a Presbyterian form of government. It was more of an Episkopos form of government for Calvary Chapel.”

    by Rick Gross on Aug 16, 2012 at 12:52 pm

  3. Alex,

    Clearly you have made a difference. Too coincidental.
    You have stuck your neck out for sure.
    Too bad they can’t admit it and thank you.
    It reminds me of the type of coverup that I experienced in my own “little world” at CC.
    Would love to share it with you on e-mail . Do you have my e-mail adress?

    by Hannah on Aug 16, 2012 at 12:53 pm

  4. Hannah, yes, agrenier7 at gmail dot com

    by Alex on Aug 16, 2012 at 1:01 pm

  5. BRUTAL IS:

    (re-post for the newbies explaining why we stand with Alex and Paul and why we call the new CCA TO CONFRONT AND REMOVE BOB GRENIER NOW!!!)

    My brother Paul, Bob’s son, shared this on another forum:

    “I wanted to expound on what my brother wrote in regards to brutality. I haven’t commented publicly on this issue, but reading through these posts has brought up memories and feelings that I have tried to numb and forget.

    I want to talk a bit about what it is to be brutal. Brutal is making your children watch while one of your brothers is beaten, punched and kicked. Brutal is laughing at your child after you have beaten and humiliated him in front of his family. Brutal is hitting your child with a wooden log all over his body. Brutal is making your children go in the backyard and “pick the switch” that they will be whipped with all over their backs and buttocks. Brutal is making your child count out loud the number of times they will be hit. Brutal is making your child thank you and tell them how wonderful and responsible it is that you just beat them. Brutal is locking your child in a small, dark closet. Brutal is punching your child in the face and then kicking him out his home because you are so afraid that it is going to be front page news that you are a child abuser disguised as a Pastor. Brutal is then kicking that child out and laughing at him because you have cut him off from his mothers and brothers. Brutal is not letting your wife talk to her son for 10 years. Brutal is threatening the rest of your children that they will be cut off if they talk to their estranged brother. Brutal is telling your child to put their hands behind their backs and that it is ok because you aren’t going to hit them. Brutal is then hitting that child in the face so hard that they fall to the ground. Brutal is humiliating, degrading, and psychologically torturing your children for hours on end and then calling it a day and expecting everything to go back to “normal”. Brutal is ruining your son and soon to be daughter-in-law’s wedding day because you refuse to take family pictures with your estranged son and behave like a grown, civilized adult. Brutal is making your child eat an entire pack of cigarettes and swallow them and laugh at them as they vomit and cry because they tried smoking in high school. Brutal is telling your children you don’t love them. Brutal is telling your children you wished they were never born and you never planned on having them. Brutal is beating one child so badly that they are scared and whimpering like a small animal, and then having another one of your children sit on your lap and profess how they are your favorite and how much you love them. Brutal is watching your older brother and sister-in-law in agony over the fact that they might lose their newborn baby boy. Brutal is watching your brother call your Mom to come down and your Mom not responding. Brutal is hearing from others how sad your Mom is that she doesn’t have a relationship with her children and grandchildren. Brutal is then seeing your Mom in public and having her walk right by you like she didn’t know you from Adam. Brutal is hearing that your youngest brother called one of his older brothers on Mother’s Day (not a great day for us) and having him glibly ask how his Mother’s Day is going.

    Brutal is being told that you will not be allowed to see your dying grandmother. Brutal is hearing how hateful your Mother speaks of her 3 sons to her brother and sister-in-law who sit in horror at what is happening on their mother’s deathbed. Brutal is making sure that your brother, sister-in-law, 3 estranged children, grandchildren, nephew, and cousins aren’t invited to their grandmother’s funeral. Brutal is watching one of your best friends tell her mom and sisters about a terrible, evil thing that happened to her as a child. Brutal is watching that family go to counseling with their Pastor for guidance, love, and help. Brutal is then watching their Pastor, my father, humiliate this young woman and tell her the abuse was her fault. Brutal is kicking this family out of the church and watching your father spreading vicious lies about them. Brutal is watching your parents mock and criticize struggling missionaries behind their backs. Brutal is watching good, honest, struggling people go to their Pastor for counseling only to be chastised, humiliated, and slandered. Brutal is watching their Pastor then go to every church in town and meet with the Pastors to make sure these people will never worship anywhere in peace. Brutal is the behavior of someone that tortures their child so much that they feel their only escape is to end their life. Brutal is being abused on multiple levels by one parent. Brutal is having the other parent do nothing to stop it. Brutality is not knowing the love of God.

    I will admit that it is not easy to forgive and have a heart of mercy. I am so thankful that God has been merciful and loving toward me in my life. I think we all struggle with keeping our emotions in check and trying to have the right attitude. I know it’s a daily struggle for me. My first reaction isn’t always the right one by any stretch of the imagination. I wanted to share these thoughts, experiences, and feelings because I know that Bob has not only hurt me, my brothers, but many of you who thought this was a Pastor and friend you could count on. It is one of the worst feelings experience such disappointment at the hands of someone you thought you could trust. Please know that there are so many of you out there and I remember what was done to you. I’m praying for you and please pray for me. “

    by once a cc guru on Aug 16, 2012 at 2:15 pm

  6. rick
    “6. Calvary Chapel will become increasingly catholic in character and stress the Arminian traditions of the Roman Catholic Church”

    just curious, how exactly can the RCC be Arminian? Arminius came after John Calvin.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 16, 2012 at 4:08 pm

  7. Maybe rick meant semi-pelagian in which Arminianism has its roots.

    by Andrew on Aug 16, 2012 at 5:29 pm

  8. Could it be that this new group is not about reformation. Could CS be setting up his kingdom for his imminent demise? Control without appearing controlling. Far as I know no ex-Shiloh guys on the regional boards. His son-in-law BB would have been over whelmed by the many attacks that may be coming once CS dies if he had to fight them by himself. This frees BB, it does not lessen him. After a few years of BB at the helm, things can be consolidated back to Rome er … Costa Mesa.

    by Chuck S on Aug 16, 2012 at 5:45 pm

  9. Once a CC guru, thank you. Paul’s testimony is chilling and should be shocking. I can corroborate much of what he said. I wasn’t in the home for many years that Paul was there w/o me (I’m 10 years older)…but much of the same and similar stuff was done to me and my other brother (who is a similar age to me).

    We were constantly in fear and constantly beaten down emotionally and physically. CC could care less…even with testimony from a 24 year CCV Board member that Bob once copped to punching my brother in the face in one of his many rages. He abused us many many other times, but did cop to one episode, which is revealing. The CCV Board didn’t report the crime. Much abuse occurred after that incident…and it was a violent episode that left a lot of emotional scars on my brother and on me (as I witnessed it) and again was just the tip of the iceberg.

    by Alex on Aug 16, 2012 at 6:08 pm

  10. Chuck S, we’ll find out.

    I’m going to try and work through the CC System, once again. If they Stone Wall and ignore me, then my conclusion is yes…just a facade of accountability once again.

    If they actually do something, then I will be quite hopeful for the “new” CC.

    by Alex on Aug 16, 2012 at 6:09 pm

  11. This whole facade of a new organization sickens me. It’s like the white collar criminal saying, “Okay, starting Monday– I mean, ahem– Tuesday morning (the CCs I’ve been a part of take Mondays off) we’re going to get our shirts presed with a little extra starch and creases and make sure there is no more ring around the collar dirt… make sure to have your shoes shined and clean haircuts. Time to start looking more like bankers than the coffer clean-out, emptying crews and spenders we are. We’re going to make ourselves look legit. Huh? Naw fellas, no worries, my CCSP tells me that’s how they do it over there to make themselves look legit… only we don’t have to worry about all that pompous, egotistical, hypocritical, praying and speaking from the pulpit– after all our pulpit and congregation is the phone and unsuspecting old people whose hard earned retirement funds we’re after!!”

    by Andy G on Aug 16, 2012 at 6:19 pm

  12. CS @ #8
    Ortiz and Caldwell in the Northwest region were both brought up through Shiloh.

    by Once Upon a Time on Aug 16, 2012 at 6:46 pm

  13. Things I find interesting;

    1. Greg Laurie seems to be taking the lead on all of this. His close relationship with Chuck has resulted in, what appears to be, the primary role. Should there be a fall out, a split between Greg and the CC brand would cause a rift rivaling the Grand Canyon. The ecumical CC crowd will follow Greg. Their will likely be a reformed branch. And a dying old school facet.

    2. It is a philosophy of CC to hide behind board members. Seemingly biblically sound yet oblique. It allows for a no response to be defined as “a decision by the majority of the board” allowing those in the board to not take the hit, or deflect by stating others decided the conclusion. Example: Alex files a formal, well documented complaint. He is told that it will be brought before the regional board (he waits and waits and waits). The conclusion is a private address of the issue with BG. Nothing changes. Alex expresses disapproval. The board member he speaks with says, “I know how you feel. It is a terrible situation but the board decided this was the best way to handle it.” No resolution. Where as Alex was defined as a loose cannon. Now he is recognized as a nuclear missile. This will be the story. He seemed to have an issue that was projected onto Chuck smith when he didn’t get the response he wanted. We, as a group, have found him an unreasonable person. We, thru much prayer, have sought the Lord and did what we believe would glorify the Lord and best address the situation and he isn’t happy. (i.e. He needs to get a life.)

    3. The beast is too large and those involved in its leadership are not aware of how to control the masses. Those masses would be the other CC pastors. Keep in mind, they have constructed an organization of self seeking agrandizers. The CC brand was held together by the mystique of Chuck Smith’s super spirituality. If i thought to make a break in the past, the congregation might see it as me going off the wall. However, with Chuck gone, I would be able to express that the movement has made a turn in the wrong direction and as a concerned pastor i see the need to break ranks with a movement that has lost its compass.

    4. I referred to CC abuse.com as CCA.com. They start a site called CC association.com. Likely to be known as CCA.com. Those copy cats can’t come up with an original idea…..LOL

    To all you lurking CC pastors. Now is the time to jump ship……. you know you want to

    by Raymond D. on Aug 16, 2012 at 7:00 pm

  14. Alex,

    I submitted a comment that won’t stick. It isn’t in moderation and a sign comes up telling me I’ve already submitted it. Can you help out?

    by Raymond D. on Aug 16, 2012 at 7:04 pm

  15. #11 (cont.) … “Fellas, the only difference is we won’t have to wear those awful Tommy “Cover Your Glutton Belly” Bahama shirts, trousers and tennis shoes that advertise we’ve been shopping and going on expensive vacations with their money.”

    by Andy G on Aug 16, 2012 at 8:14 pm

  16. I still laugh that Ed Taylor did not get his name in lights. After all, he has a huge church, radio station, and even satellite “video” campuses.

    ;)

    by Reuben on Aug 16, 2012 at 8:21 pm

  17. #6 Michael in Chandler – you are correct Justin Arminius who was born just a few years before John Calvin died. A better identifier would have been ‘semi-pelagian’. The fact remains that CC and the RCC both hold to the doctrines of semi-pelagianism (or Arminianism). Good point.

    by Rick Gross on Aug 16, 2012 at 8:38 pm

  18. Rick,

    The RCC acts as if semi-pelagianism is true and in fact the every day catholic person would basically hold to it. However, the RCC isn’t quite so uniform in what is believed as what is presented. St. Augustine highly influenced John Calvin’s view and the majority of Catholic priests . I’ve read a number of Augustinian Catholics who have almost a nearly Calvinistic view of salvation. I’d say that most Catholics who have studied the theology of the church end up nearly in a Thomistic position. Of course Thomas Aquinas has been interpreted to just about any soteriological position. Probably due to the fact that his position is complicated.

    btw, Jacob Arminius or Jacobus Arminius is his name.

    by DA Armstrong on Aug 16, 2012 at 10:40 pm

  19. RD says @ 13

    To all you lurking CC pastors. Now is the time to jump ship……. you know you want to…

    Even if they know in their hearts it’s true, most wont risk loosing their connection to the franchise which defines their own identity and promises the dividends rather than step out into a true venture of faith and leave the cc denomination… tell that to the he-man in Bangor who tows the party line or to the effeminate guy in Philly who worships chuck!

    Therefore “Come out from among them
    And be separate, says the Lord.
    Do not touch what is unclean,
    And I will receive you.” ‘I will be a Father to you,
    And you shall be My sons and daughters,
    Says the Lord Almighty.” (2 Co 6:17-18)

    And I heard another voice from heaven saying,
    “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in
    her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
    For her sins have reached to heaven, and God
    has remembered her iniquities. (Rv 18:4-6)

    by once a cc guru on Aug 16, 2012 at 11:19 pm

  20. Hi Everyone.

    Does anyone have the old directory list of Calvary Chapel that includes the Pastor’s name.?

    I went to their new site and they no longer provide the information. Instead, it’s a search for a particular area that lists the CC and how big it is.

    Alex, what was the name of the Pastor in California that stated he would look into your situation. I’ve tried to find track it down on your blog, but for what ever reason, I’m not able to do so. I can’t remember which blog it is under.

    #5 For Alex: You might want to listen to Dr. David Jerimiah radio message given this week: Wednesday/Thursday August 15-16. Its a message concerning forgiveness and repentance. I think it might be encouraging to you to understand that there is a difference in offenses and what is required given the gravity of such.

    #2 So, given the episcopalian hierachy or structuring of the “new” CC are we to say they or have become like the Nicolaitans and Laodiceans mentioned in Revelations?

    # 13 Oh hear oh Israel, for the Lord God have spoken these things. Come out, Come out of her.

    Therefore “Come out from among them
    And be separate, says the Lord.
    Do not touch what is unclean,
    And I will receive you.” ‘I will be a Father to you,
    And you shall be My sons and daughters,
    Says the Lord Almighty.” (2 Co 6:17-18)

    And I heard another voice from heaven saying,
    “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in
    her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
    For her sins have reached to heaven, and God
    has remembered her iniquities. (Rv 18:4-6)

    I fear this may be a warning to us all to take refuge and know that what we have seen and what we now share is true.

    As for me, my days are over with Calvary Chapel. In reviewing the doctrinal statement on the new CC website, I was terriby dissappointed in reading through it. Given the academia that many of CC pastors do possess, I felt it was weak in its language. Along with this, they included and stressed their “male” superiority over the woman which after reading hundreds of doctrinal statements of beliefs since becoming more versed in apologetics I found this highly unusual, but prevalent within the male domination mindset within the leadership of CC.

    Overall each statement provided fudge room to then make scripture to fit within what we are already familiar with that takes place within this congregation. I will be looking for a body of believer that has far more respect towards women and children. I am repulsed by the arrogance and the rampant cover up of the destructive harm committed against me as well as so many others. “The role of men and women_—— in deed, according to whose convenience, interpretation, and agenda?

    Alex, and everyone else, the recent topics presented in August with the response are well developed and obviously taken very seriously. I so appreciate each and every one of you and hope you will continue to pray for my own situation. I remain in hiding and at times terrified that my whereabouts will be found out. Nevertheless, I have not left the faith, but all the more contend for it, as you do. May the Lord, God pour His favor upon each of you as you remain stedfast in the faith and not wavering.

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 17, 2012 at 12:33 am

  21. Hey Once Upon a Time,

    Your are correct. Ortiz is one of the names on John’s termination letter. He was of the guys who signed the letter. I do not think he would have a problem standing upto the Shilohites. I do not know about Caldwell.

    Do you know Caldwell’s history?

    Chuck S.

    by Chuck S on Aug 17, 2012 at 1:32 am

  22. Alex,

    I pray they do reform and deal with some of the worse of the worse. I hope this is a Solomn dealing with David’s foes after his death moment. Watch the rats, they usually jump ship first before it sinks.

    Chuck

    by Chuck S on Aug 17, 2012 at 1:37 am

  23. Chuck, amen to your prayer.

    by Alex on Aug 17, 2012 at 3:35 am

  24. Linda asked, “Alex, what was the name of the Pastor in California that stated he would look into your situation. I’ve tried to find track it down on your blog, but for what ever reason, I’m not able to do so. I can’t remember which blog it is under.”

    Dave Rolph. Dave did an “investigation” but hid behind the “there’s nothing actionable this moment” in terms of a law enforcement issue as statute of limitations has passed on the physical child abuse. However, the pile of testimonies of many families from CCV who were spiritually abused (and some worse), the testimony from former bookkeepers and board member to financial abuse and corruption, the testimony of Paul to child molestation…all serious…and all stuff Dave saw. Plenty for the Church to act (and authorities should act, but I can’t comment more on that at this time).

    by Alex on Aug 17, 2012 at 3:38 am

  25. Linda said, ” I remain in hiding and at times terrified that my whereabouts will be found out.”

    That is terrible. I apologize if I am forgetting your situation (I have so many I’ve been told about). Are you being threatened? Can we help?

    There is a woman I’ve been meaning to call back about a CC situation she contacted me about…if that is you, I apologize. I’ll try to get a hold of you soon.

    You are in my prayers, praying now that whatever you are facing, God gives you peace and brings help.

    by Alex on Aug 17, 2012 at 3:45 am

  26. From the CCA website:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Coming Soon : Ministry Helps Resource Center

    The men on the leadership council represent over 700 years of pastoring churches and this section of our website is being compiled to take as much as we have learned over the years of experience and offer it freely to help others serve the Lord.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Resource Center for what exactly?

    I would hope that this resource center is going to help others who have been abused by the CC system.

    In reading this, it is extremely juvenile to me to list the “collective” amount of years the Pastors have been in ministry. That’s like advertising a medical practice and listing the collective years the physicians have been in practice. What does that mean? It seems prideful to me, and doesnt really say anything about how they handle problems, as it says nothing about each individual physicians credentials. You can practice your whole life and not be a good physician..the same with a Pastor. It’s as if they are using numbers once again to gain some kind of creedence. Makes no sense to me.

    Actually, in re-reading the second sentence, it is more about gaining other Pastors to open a franchise than it is about helping the sheep.

    Where is helping the sheep on this website?

    by Hannah on Aug 17, 2012 at 6:29 am

  27. “Actually, in re-reading the second sentence, it is more about gaining other Pastors to open a franchise than it is about helping the sheep.Where is helping the sheep on this website?”

    i agree, but would add that the problem comes from their misunderstanding that are not just sheep too. they think they are ‘Moses’ or ‘Jesus’ over the flock as opposed to luke 22 vs 25 thru 27 and 1 peter 5 vs 3. The so called Moses Model conveniently forgets that Moses was disallowed from entering the ‘rest’ or the Promised Land as a judgement for misrepresenting God as a petty, angry, and fed up tyrant in numbers 20

    Jesus established the ‘Servant Sheep’ Model and banished the ‘Moses’ Model to the wilderness. The time has come for CC to do the same.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 8:09 am

  28. rick, DA

    can you explain the differfence between semi- and full pelagian and why the scripture itself would condemn the two positions? i’m not sure many really understand the ‘labels’ these days and why they are denounced. thx for your help
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:01 am

  29. by the way, i’m NOT saying i agree with pelagius, just want to get past the label throwing to label explaining that leads to more informed and intelligent discussion.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:15 am

  30. Pelagianism is the teaching that man has the capacity to seek God in and of himself apart from any movement of God.

    I think this is easily refuted with Romans 3.11.

    by Andrew on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:29 am

  31. rick
    also by the way, i’m not sure you are correct that semi-pelagianism is the same as Arminianism as you said in #17. man classic arminians, people who agree with arminius (i’m not one by the way) would not be pelagian (full or semi) because they believe in what pelagius didn’t (original sin) as does the RCC (having DEEP roots in Augustinian theology.

    my point is and was, labels are important because they mean something. we all need to make sure we aren’t just tossing them around without using them correctly.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:31 am

  32. suffice to say, i don’t believe the RCC to be either Arminian (due to the heavy Augustiian influence) or Pelagian (for the same reason)
    CC? probably arminian (due to the influence of the four square/pentacostal doctrine) or if you count anyone who disagrees with Calvinism as ‘arminian’, but then again in my opinion that wouldn’t be exactly correct and honest either.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:36 am

  33. but back to the thread topic…

    why do you think it is that the MM held onto so tightly by CC and CC Pastors when it has been shown time and time again to create such evil acts and egomaniacal ‘demi-gods’ in the pulpits?
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:48 am

  34. We believe this limits the roles of pastoral leadership and doctrinal authority to qualified men (1 Corinthians 11:1-12, 1 Timothy 2:1-15).

    I find this a bit scary that doctrinal authority is given to a mere men. Isn’t scripture itself the final authority over doctrine? This sounds kind of Roman Catholicy to me.

    by Andrew on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:18 am

  35. i agree. i would add that we see the beginnings of ‘denominational’ structure while at the same time a ‘diffusion’ of responsibility among the regional ‘archbishops’. thus minimizing ‘legal exposure’ of the ‘Pope’ in Costa Mesa.
    many see thru the ruse (thin as it is). let’s hope the victims and the abuse doesn’t get lost in the transition.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:27 am

  36. All roads do lead to Rome, whoda thunk?

    by Steve on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:33 am

  37. Michael in Chandler – The Pelagian, semi-Pelagian, Armininian controversies all have to do with the extent of man’s free will versus God’s sovereignty. Does man choose God for salvation, or does God choose man. This is the crux of the issue. They specifics of each have differed in shade and hue, but the essential core issue is always the same: Is God’s sovereignty is limited when it bumps up against man’s free will?

    Since the establishment of Canon, the Church has wrestled with this issue – which really centers on the nature of grace. In a fallen world, is mankind dead in sin or merely sick? If we are dead in sin (think of Lazarus rotting in the tomb), what does free will have to do with salvation? Can a corpse choose?

    Augustine wrote extensively on the nature of God and grace, but a one sentence prayer particularly riled a British monk named Pelagius and gave rise to the controversy by his name. He wrote, “Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire.” Pelagius took exception that God needed to grant grace for man to obey. So the argument has gone over the centuries culminating in the Protestant Reformation.

    I suggest 3 books to get a handle on the issue.

    1. For an historical chronology from the time of the establishment of Canon to the Reformation: Willing to Believe – The Controversy Over Free Will by R.C. Sproul
    2. The Potter’s Freedom** by John White
    3. Chosen By God by R.C. Sproul

    **The Potter’s Freedom is a counter to a book by Norm Geisler which supports Arminian theology.

    by Rick Gross on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:38 am

  38. Linda,

    Many of us at this post understand your fear. That is why Alex and others have stuck their neck out. Alex, a recovering recipient, I won’t call him a victim, of abuse is standing up for those that need help.

    I don’t call Alex a victim because he has learned an important fact about abusers; they like the dark. The abuser wants us in fear of them, that way will not talk. Not talking for Alex, but myself, I came to the point where I was so tired of being afraid I decided I would rather have them harm me than to live in fear that I came out so to speak.

    What happen once a bully is stood up to? Nothing. They cannot take our soul except by causing us to live in fear. When we attach our names to the post than other know they are not alone, the bullies now fear you because they know you do not fear them, and others who read the post gain strength.

    Linda, if you haven’t already seen, you will see you are not alone. Others will rally around you. I hope to have my blog/ website up soon that will be place for true Matthew 18. This site will allow you to bring you charges against a Calvary for the whole church to read/ hear. The accused will be invited to defend themselves, witness and all. Then bloggers will be allowed to cross examine you, the CC pastor, and witness. I will moderator who will ask those that have participate to give me their off line sentence. We will then publish the results. What was done in darkness will be put in the light. I hope you participate.

    Chuck

    by Chuck S. on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:44 am

  39. rick,
    thanks for the suggested reading. i appreciate the concern. i will try to muddle thru with the bible itself and the teaching of the Spirit, without the ‘determinist’ filters of Sproul and White.
    thanks again,
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:47 am

  40. chuck, linda,

    bravo and i agree. these ‘men’ whether they be CC or other denoms pastors are really just cocky-roaches who want to bully us into thinking they are the ‘Lion of the Tribe of Judah’. they are not and the ‘true’ Lion will be their judge.
    shine the light and they scatter under whatever table or cover they can find. One day, they will no longer be able tp escape their sins and their abuse of the Lord’s Church. until then, we need not be afraid, just keep shining and ‘stomping on them’ when possible.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 10:54 am

  41. “shine the light and they scatter under whatever table or cover they can find”

    alex
    i should have included Board, Association or Council in that description as well…. my deepest apologies for the oversight…

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:07 am

  42. and rick…
    “The Potter’s Freedom is a counter to a book by Norm Geisler which supports Arminian theology”

    … having read Geisler’s book and several from the other two, i’m also not sure Geisler would self identify as an Arminian any more than the RCC would, just that he disagrees with Calvinism. (is that a sign you may be ‘lableling’ all non-calvinists as Arminian without their necessarily actually ‘being’ Arminian?) May want to change that preset in your hard drive.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:12 am

  43. michael in chandler – Geisler may or may not define himself as Arminian, but his theology is, whether he calls it that or not. I happen to think he’s intellectually dishonest as well (as to others) but that’s another issue. You may disagree, but there are really only two sides to the coin in orthodox Christendom – (1) semi-peleagian/arminian and (2) reformed also called Calvinism (although Luther wrote more on it than Calvin did). Lastly, be careful how you define “determinist” or you’ll end up throwing out all prophecy and negating divine providence.

    by Rick Gross on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:27 am

  44. rick, my last comment on this,… really
    “(1) semi-peleagian/arminian and (2) reformed also called Calvinism (although Luther wrote more on it than Calvin did).”

    again, i think you really should be careful lumping all non-calvinists into the same camp. many would simply not agree to your characterization, either personally or theologically.

    and as well, a good host of ‘reformed’ would reject that ‘reformed’ necessarily means ‘calvinist’. Luther for one and many other ‘non-calvinist’ but ‘reformation originated’ churches.

    all calvinists are ‘reformed’ but not all reformed are calvinist in their theology. it’s just not honest or helpful to suggest otherwise.
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:44 am

  45. MIC,

    It was nice to have coffee with you. I thought we talked for an hour. But 3.5, wow. I enjoy your heart and love for Christ. I find those in my area would rather not see me than harm me. Standing up to these guys and broadcasting their ways will make those you fear scamper. Like, in MIC words, “cocky-roaches.”

    Proclaim the truth, even to those that do not want to hear it.

    Chuck S.

    by Chuck S on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:54 am

  46. michael in chandler – I guess we’re just have to disagree on this one. Good chat.

    by Rick Gross on Aug 17, 2012 at 12:02 pm

  47. chuck s,

    i enjoyed the time and the fellowship too. white mocha and good conversation…. good times!
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 12:06 pm

  48. rick

    it’s hard to find agreement with those who do as you have done, divide the Body of Christ by either Calvinist or not then go about labeling (or should I say libeling) all non-calvinists as ‘pelagians/semipelagians or arminians’ and by this with the overall unspoken assumption that calvinism is the only true gospel and all other expressions of christian thought or teaching are heresy and false. you need to get out more, brother
    -mike

    by michael in chandler on Aug 17, 2012 at 12:19 pm

  49. Sorry, I’ve been away working and it should have been an easy day so I could sit around all day on the internet at work.

    I disagree with Rick in the sense that either your Calvinist or your Arminian. Now I would agree with say the statement you could be Calvinist or wrong, because the term Arminian isn’t synonymous with Pelagianism, etc, assuming Calvinism is true.

    Arminians are definitely not Pelagian. Pelagius held that there was no original sin, that man has the ability to chose not to sin and on top of that Jesus was just the perfect example for man kind. Pelagianism doesn’t hold that the crucifixion is redemptive in nature.

    Armianism holds that man has original sin, such that it effects all of his being, God’s grace opens the door for man to freely chose Christ, but without God’s grace men wouldn’t be able to chose God. God however gives this grace to all men.

    Semi-pelagianism holds that man can apart from God’s grace, can freely chose God.

    Officially the Catholic Church holds that semi-pelagianism is heresy and through the middles ages until now a form of Augustianism is what the church holds officially. Of course, Catholic Theologians now hold to a Thomism and Molinism and other isms.

    As far as Geisler, he’s pretty Arminian in his theology.

    by DA Armstrong on Aug 17, 2012 at 1:56 pm

  50. Chuck S.,

    Don’t you run into a legal issue having that kind of exchange online?
    If I stated grievances against my Pastor, do you really think he will come on the blog and defend himself there?hy would anyone do that? Anyway, an interesting concept.

    by Hannah on Aug 17, 2012 at 3:01 pm

  51. The word cc uses is ecclesiacal. This is a church issue not public issue. By Calvary calling themself Christian they have put themselves under the discipline of the corporate church. They are not a denomination, they are a first century church, so therefore as first century church saw all believers as members; Calvary must see its churches part of the global church. We the church do not have a right to judge wrong by members, we have the responsibility to do so. Calvary has already made it clear the courts have no grounds in church business.

    Now if they want to argue before a court they judge their own I welcome the case. If they win, they are responsible for each CC’s actions, let the lawsuits begin. If they loose, then let the website grow.

    by Chuck s on Aug 17, 2012 at 4:16 pm

  52. Well, actually Calvary Types have went into Eastern Orthodoxy, for example our friend Perry Robinson, and another Jacob Lee than Roman Catholicism Also, some like Kim Riddleburger if I’m remembering the name which into the Reform tradition so different view on free will. Kim is a pastor. Another was Steve Martin that went into the Lutheran Missouri Synod

    by cynthia curran on Aug 17, 2012 at 9:50 pm

  53. Alex, more than anything I need everyone’s prayer. This spiritual warfare and Satan would love to use my husband and his cohorts to destroy me. Saying this, my husband needs prayer as well, but not for the things that he thinks he is entitled to do to me and our marriage while studying to become a pastor for Calvary Chapel. So please pray and fast if any of you can. I am not able to fast because I am hypoglycemic. But I believe as Jesus has told us in the gospel. That is, this kind of stronghold takes prayer and fasting.

    I have been in hiding most of the time since being forced out of my home by my husband as a result of his adulteress and abusive narcissistic oriented mindset. I have slept in my car, eaten garbage, and urinated when waking up not having a bathroom nearby. For those that have not followed my comments on this challenge in my life, you can go to Raull Ries, Good, Bad, or Ugly on this blog beginning about 2/23/2012.

    It is my hope and prayer that one day my husband would be exposed to enable him to repent and to do what I’ve asked him to do in order reconcile wity me. So far, like Alex’s stepdad, he does what every abuser does: denies and minimizes, then tries to make it look as though I am the one that has “severe mental health” issues.

    I am terrified of my husband because he has been able to live a triple lifestyle, one of a harlot and adulteress (with more than a few females, directly and indirectly), one as a god fearing man in the process of becoming a pastor for CC, and one as a man who continues to project his evil upon me while threatening my life on a number of occasions, while manically laughing, telling me I was crazy and that no one would believe me. Occasions that were entirely unprovoked by anything that I tried to say to him.

    He has told me that: (1) that he would see me in jail, prison, that I would never practice my profession (as a psychotherapist), or better yet, he would see me in the ground. (2) he showed me 4 bullets, but told me he didn’t have a gun. (3) that I could die within the next year, as I could be “accidentally” hit by a truck, and (4) how easy it would be for him to panic mode. Common for survivors of abuse. The fact is: (1) my husband has proven to me that if he could he would take my life and that (2) he has the means and the connection have this done indirectly. He is connected to many unsavory individuals who would sell out their mothers for their fix, so to speak.

    So for Chuck S. Yes, I would be interested, but my suggestion to you would to be to study everything you can find on narcissism and psychopathy if you or whoever will be the moderator. If you would like to shorten your research, email me and I will provide the resources. It is because most people do not know what this is or what it looks like that my husband has been able to run circles around everyone. Even clinicians have a difficult time identifying them simply because unless you have really studied and treated them or have had an experience with them up close and personal and worked through the truama, you too can be charmed and exploited by them as well. As my husband’s pastor stated to my pastor first, then later to me, “I don’t think your husband is being unfaithful. He hasn’t brought anyone to church hanging onto his arm (2008). Besides that, I consider myself to be a good judge of character.” My response: Did you ever wonder why it was that he never brought me to church with him? Did you ever think to call me and ask me why I did not come to church with him. Or did you just buy into his story as a victim and this poor guy that was trying to work things out with me, but I just would not submit to him as my husband. And doing so, did you just write me off and refused to meet with me privately, as he has, because I was a woman instead.

    By the way, while my husband attended church, I listened online until I finally decided to seek out, yet another church for safety to attend and to resume some degree of fellowship, as I was becoming depressed, isolated, and terribly alienated bit by bit.

    There is so much more to say but this is not time or the place. The fact is, I remain in hiding while staying the course. No Alex, that was a different lady that wanted you to call her. The only way you can contact me is by email.

    Just know I have talked to the police and the FBI. I have also talked to some people in the CIA. All say they believe me but cannot do anything until he physically cause me harm or my life is ended. At the same time, for me it is more of a spiritual issue rather than a criminal or legal issue. I have also left a couple of packets with evidence to help them to prosecute if I should end up dead. How I pray that this will never go this far.

    Right now, I’m thinking all this might sound a bit overboard to the reader and I may be, being viewed as someone my husband would love to convince you that I am. But I am not, not by a long shot. All I can do is to try to reach out and try to be a part of this blog while also seeking encouragement, prayer, and fellowship where I am not able to do freely without fear, otherwise. So, thanks for listening and for those who believe me and decide to pray, thank you even more. And again, if any is willing to fast by proxy– would sure appreciate it. Please agree with me in prayer that our Father in heaven would open the doors to enable me to stay afloat and to minister to others as well. Shalom, in Christ, Jesus.

    Oh, Alex the Pastor I was asking about was more recent. His last name began with a M and I believe he’s from Northern California.

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 7:12 am

  54. Correction: 4) how easy it would be for him to panic mode

    Must have zipped what I was saying out. It should read:(4) how easy it would be for him to walk up behind me and snap my neck because of being hearing impaired (since birth). Because of my husband’s callous and wickedness exemplified in what he has said to others vs. what he says to me and how he has failed to admit the truth, repented, and bear the fruit of that repentance, but instead have threaten my very life on several occasions, I remain cautious, in hiding, and I am easily prone to what is called a “startle response.” Common for trauma victims and survivors. I’m getting better, but I am not so foolish to believe for a second my husband will not harm me, given the chance.

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 7:29 am

  55. So sorry Linda. I will be praying for you. Please leave this area and go somewhere were you can be safe.

    by Not Alone on Aug 18, 2012 at 7:55 am

  56. By the way, it is possible to be both arminiamism and calvinism. Like most things, they are not all or none, or black and white. That is, except for God’s Word. I think we make things far more complicate than God intended it to be. Paul is pretty clear on things. Even more so, Jesus said it quite simply: Repent and believe. He told us that either we walk in the Spirit or we walk in the flesh. He told us that we are to purify ourselves, to walk in obedience, to love one another, to abstain from all sexual immorality, and so many other things. He also told us that if we did not then we are not the children of God, but of the Devil. He told us that we can abide in Him if we have the Holy Sprit and if we have the Holy Spirit, the why do we behave as though we do not. He or Paul or any other author of the books of the Bible ever said that we could go on sinning and expect to inherit the Kingdom of God. He also said that His Kingdom is not of this earth, but that He would come again to gather those who are in him, then again to set up “HIs” kingdom.. Not a kingdom of man, but the Kingdom that He already has established in the heavens that will also contained a new earth. Calvinim and Arminianism is not reason to become divisive within the pastorral office over. Both should be taught and understood for what they are, but neither should be used to oust a person from his calling as a Pastor, that is if he is truely called.

    A way that I have learned to reconcile both of these teaching is this: We all agree that God is omnicience (all knowing), omnipresence (everywhere), and omnipotent (all powerful). Being so, God knows who is or is not going to spend eternity with Him before we face Him at or on the day of judgement. Some might argue with this by saying if He know this, then why allow us to go through the crap we have to go through, That’s a whole nother topic in itself that Alex can raise if he so chooses to do. But for right now we are discussing Arminianism vs. Calvinism (sorry, I think my spelling is off on the former).

    Anyway, the way I keep it straight in my mind is this: If it is true that God is all knowing, all present, and all powerful. If it is true that there are different demensions as well, then it is also true that God has predestinated His elect as well as given us free will to choose who we will serve, while at the same time by His grace, mercy, and soveriegn will can and does grant a change in the course of what is preknown by Him.

    How? Simple: Rule #1: God does not intefere with the free will of manking. He will use it for His good purpose, whether it be evil or righteous, and also use what He can to give every person and opportunity to surrender their hearts to Him.

    Let me ask you a question: Don’t you think God knew how Paul was going to respond when he was knocked off his horse on his way to Damascus., Of course he did, but think of it if Paul had still rejected Jesus. Would that have stopped God from using someone else to come forth, as Paul ended up doing. No, not at all. If Paul had decided to continue in his way, that is, to persecute the Christian, God would have dealt with Paul differently, perhaps to get him to surrender, but also to deal with as He did with Pharoah or any other enemy of Christ. We would be under the teaching of another whom God found to raise up instead.

    Another way to look at these two teahings that appear to be so opposite of the other is this (please understand I am not speaking of what is referred to as ultra calvinistic or ultra arminianism, for just as in the Christianity there are extremes such as liberalism and legalism):

    Picture a parade —— a very long parade at that. You are sitting under an umbrella with your friends who come and go to get a drink of water,l somethings to eat, or need to go to the bathroom. As the parade goes by, you see what is before your eyes. You do not see what is happening in the line of the parade behind you or in front of you. Why, because you are not God.

    Not so with God, He sees everything, before, during, and afterwards. So He has a vantage point that we do not have. He knows what needs to be done to keep the parade going and who is going to fall out of it. He knows who needs to be lifted up or to be cast out of it. He knows who are weak and who are strong and he knows how we will hold up along the way. By the way, He also knows who the bystanders are as well.

    With God, there is no middle road, either you are walking with Him or You are not, but with these other things, nothing is not as clear as the Way of the Cross.

    Linda Pappas

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 8:15 am

  57. Linda,

    I’d disagree that you can be both Calvinist and Arminian, but you can be something else, a third thing. You can hold to certain truths that may or may not be consistent with each other with varying degrees of success. It is logically impossible to be both Calvinist and Arminian, as they are mutually exclusive. Of course most of us, are probably just perplexed at God and his work. :)

    by DA Armstrong on Aug 18, 2012 at 8:26 am

  58. Linda,

    You can fast on vegetable juice and protein powder drinks. I believe God will honor that as I have done that and seen prayers answered.
    Let me know if you would like me to join you.
    I would be willing to do this with you. for 4 days.
    We could move it over to the prayer thread which is pretty vacant.
    Prayer is the most important weapon we have.

    by Hannah on Aug 18, 2012 at 10:17 am

  59. DA Armstrong,

    I understand that many people believe as you do: that is, that they are directly opposed to one another, therefore, it is illogical to believe in both. At the same time consider this, Paul teaches us that: 1 Cor 1:27

    But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

    Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

    I guess, or rather I believe what I am saying is it does not need to be logical if it is the truth. God’s Word tells us that he foreknew us, that He predistined us, that we are His elect, and at the same time we have free will to choose. What’s logical about that? He then tells us that through His Holy Spirit, we are called. He tels us that many are called, but few are chosen. Yet we all are given the opportunities to believe and repent. Not everyone does because of free will. Yet God knows who will and who won’t.

    I have so many questions to ask when He brings us home. Don’t you?

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 10:43 am

  60. A better way for me to express my position on the two is saying I do not believe entirely on either but do draw from both.

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 10:47 am

  61. Hannah,

    Let me check out the salt and sugar level in both and I will get back to you. In the meantime, don’t wait on me to pray. :-)

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 10:52 am

  62. Linda P.;

    I have some experience with narcissists and social paths through my prison and emergency room work. However, I am always open to learn more. Linda, I am concerned for your safety. As a psychotherapist, you know the head games that are being played on you. He may be undermining your ability to trust others. Find yourself a champion, someone that will hold you up and protect you. More importantly, talk to a colleague, trusted spiritual leader or both for re-enforcement of heart. Do not council yourself. Remember: “A lawyer that represents himself has a fool for a client”, the same can be said for a councilor.

    Alex; if you have time could you forward my email address to Linda P. ? Thank you.

    Chuck

    by Chuck S. on Aug 18, 2012 at 11:39 am

  63. I know two narcissists that are incredibly skilled at their deceptions. One is a pastor, another runs ponzi schemes. Both do evil. Both prey on those with a lack of discernment, people with money, and kind people who allow them to use them … use them up, if possible.

    But the greater judgement is reserved for the pastor, a teacher of God’s Word. He may parse out a verse correctly, but when he teaches the opposite by how he lives his life -an example for others to follow- he’s still “teaching” a false gospel.

    James 3:1

    New International Version (©1984)
    Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

    by Grateful on Aug 18, 2012 at 12:15 pm

  64. Linda,

    When you use vegetables, and make your own juice there is no salt or sugar. You can add protein powder (also no salt and sugar). Put the vegetables and fruit in a blender with water and strain. Then add the protein and blend again.

    by Hannah on Aug 18, 2012 at 12:30 pm

  65. Rick wrote – “You may disagree, but there are really only two sides to the coin in orthodox Christendom – (1) semi-peleagian/arminian and (2) reformed also called Calvinism (although Luther wrote more on it than Calvin did).”

    You comment is framed from a Calvinist’s perspective which only sees those two possibilities. There are plenty of other options which have existed in historical Christianity, such as Molinism and Semi-Augustinianism not to mention the entire Christian East which never got caught up in this “western” debate to start with.

    The key question is if we are workers together (synergism) with Christ or not (monergism).

    by Doug Gilliland on Aug 18, 2012 at 12:55 pm

  66. Doug wrote – “The key question is if we are workers together (synergism) with Christ or not (monergism).”

    Answer: Both. Christians are ‘born again / regenerated / elected’ monergistically by God alone; thereafter we cooperate synergistically with God in our sanctification. Monergism first, then synergism unto death and heaven.

    But this is a side issue to Alex’s purpose of this website – which is establishing scriptural accountability within Calvary Chapel which I wholly support. Blessings.

    by Rick Gross on Aug 18, 2012 at 2:56 pm

  67. Hannah,

    Great idea, but things are in storage and I have a tight budget.

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 18, 2012 at 3:06 pm

  68. True, Eastern Orthodox fall into more of free will in the theological what is interesting though is since they developed in the Roman Empire they see the ruler of the Empire more or less appointed by God. So, is there free will of rulers or not in Byzantium. However, certain rulers could be seen as demonic. Procopius work known in the west as the secret history has Justinian able to have his head separate from his body a strange tell but to people in the 6th century most likely demonic involvement.

    by cynthia curran on Aug 18, 2012 at 4:32 pm

  69. Chuck, I will email your email to Linda.

    Linda, please let us know if you need help in a practical way. It’s terrible what you’re being put through.

    by Alex on Aug 18, 2012 at 5:35 pm

  70. Well, there is Anabaptist thinking in Calvary Chapel against infant baptism for example and more symbolic communion and also anti-Calvin thinking. In the early days the house of Miracles and Shiloh community Calvary was similar to early anabaptist movements which stressed communal ownership. In fact, a group of Anabaptist in the the 16th century seized a German town and imposed communism including community of wives among the men. Eventually, they were driven out by the authorities. Here’s Chuck who is pretty conservative but supported communal living among younger members.

    by cynthia curran on Aug 18, 2012 at 7:41 pm

  71. CC can call itself anything it wants and can claim to morph itself likewise. What’s in a name? That which we call an inherently flawed system by any other name would still stink as much (apologies to Shakespeare and to the relatively few “good guys” who were never quite intrinsically part of “it” anyway). Unless there is some empirically verifiable recanting, repentance, reparations, and reconciliation (did I leave out anymore “r” words? :-) ), I’ll remain skeptical about the new label, acronym, or whatever and the hopey-changey thingy.

    My hope is in Christ alone and not a human institution, however.

    Linda, I haven’t read your entire story on this thread but will look at the other that you referenced. You need a good attorney in your corner. Do NOT allow anyone to abuse you physically, emotionally, or financially. Sincere prayers are being said for you.

    by Lone Ranger on Aug 19, 2012 at 5:38 pm

  72. Chuck S wrote:

    ” Find yourself a champion, someone that will hold you up and protect you. More importantly, talk to a colleague, trusted spiritual leader or both for re-enforcement of heart”

    Just so everyone here knows, I have and I continue to do so. It would have been more than difficult to try to work this through all by myself. The Lord has been faithful in providing saints along the way to help me along the way.

    Proverbs 11:14

    NKJV Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
    But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.

    Proverbs: 12:5

    NKJV The thought of the righteous are right,
    But the counsels of the wicked are deceitful.

    In speaking with various non-CC pastors, most were not that studied on issues that I have had to work through. The counsel they gave was more in line with what I would receive from the world. The pastors whom were studied gave me a clear way to go and all called it for what it was: evil and corrupted.

    Laughing: one Pastor wrote it off and told me that sometimes marriages fail because love dies. My response: Love is a choice and marriages do not fail. They are torn asunder. Failure has nothing to do with marriages. Sin has everything to do with it however. And in God’s eyes there is only one option for the person who is permitting anything to come before the marriage and the spouse.

    Another Pastor told me that I was still young and good looking and rather than to “put myself through this, I should just move on so another brother could marry me.”

    Over all, I have been blessed to have the most amazsing and loving people come alongside of me. Thank you for your love, concern, and wise counsel each one of you. May the Lord bless you tenfold for caring to reach out and sharing with me.

    Yes, it is true that no matter what my soul is secure in Jesus. As I have shared with others, it is not my soul that I am concerned about, nor whether or not, I will see our blessed Lord one day. It’s the getting there that can be a real trial and a half, if you know what I mean. I do not fear death, I fear the mode of death that may be mine to bear.

    Linda Pappas

    by Linda Pappas on Aug 19, 2012 at 9:59 pm

  73. Once Upon A Time,

    I reviewed my Shiloh papers. There was a Caldwell who was Shiloh’s treasurer. He resigned his position in 1970. If he is the same guy, I wonder what he knows.

    Linda P.

    I believe it is hard to find pastors who can be you spiritual champions in your type of situation. Power abusing pastors will stick together. Upright pastors will have a hard time believing that a person called a pastor would do such things. Think of it in the line of any other kind of abuse. I find my spiritual champions are people no in the ministry that live the Word they study.

    I will continue to pray that you ex-spouse will be caught and secured from you.

    Chuck S.

    by Chuck S on Aug 23, 2012 at 10:12 am

  74. Chuck S.

    He is not my ex spouse. We are married, nor is there a legal separation in place. He is, however, from what I have been told and the evidence I have, along with own eye witnesses encounters points to him passing a girl (and I, mean girl) off as his wife. That is why I have said that he may have committed bigamy. So, “at best” they are shacking up with each other. Whatever papers he may have obtain to make it look as though he divorce and remarried are invalid, according the courts that has jurisdiction over the open case pertaining to our marriage. The judge refused to grant my husband a divorce because he refused to disclose his finances. But my husband told me and others that he did not divorce me because he is a “godly” man and would be, being disobedient if he did. I told my husband that this only what I’ve been telling him all along, that he had no biblical grounds and that I was and remain a Godly woman who is a person above reproach. Therefore, he needs to dismiss our court proceedings against me and our marriage. This conversation took place January 2010. He told me he would have his attorney do this. I told him that all it took was for him to file one paper with his signature on it. I told him that by doing it would be a step in the right direction in making the amends that I have asked him to. Three weeks later, he still had not done this. But during those 3 weeks, he walked up behind me and extended one arm in front of me with a closed fist. As he opened his fist, he stated: “I have 4 bullets, but no gun.” I took this to mean that if he had a gun, then he would take the lives of 4 people: mine, this girl, their child, along with his own life. Within 24 hours, I left a message to his pastor. I talked the authority, in the event I am found dead. I also left a message with the therapist he told me he was seeing. The police stated: “Sounds to me like he has a guilty conscience.” My response: “or no conscience at all.”

    You are absolutely correct in where support, counsel, and encouragements needs to come from. On the same note, I thought you were going to email me via Alex. What happened?

    Thank for your prayers. I too pray and ask others as well that my husband would be exposed to enable him to repent and to make amends to me and our marriage, as well as, so many others he has deceived, manipulated, and exploited. Yes, Chuck, this type of behavior is classical for and adulterer, abuser, and a non-believer, particularly when he has been given so much grace and opportunities with an amount of support that most people do not have access. Instead, he states, “I’ve been trying to get her (me) treatment for a long time, as she has serious mental health issues.” For those that don’t recognize the significance of this statement, it is what is refer to as a “projection.” It’s a way of deflecting and distracting from the truth and what he has done, but it’s also what a person who is narcissistic in the way he views the world.

    Thanks again, Chuck.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 1, 2012 at 12:02 pm

  75. To all, particularly Alex and Rick Gross

    On Ricks’s comment #2, he made a listing of observation concerning the “new” structuring of CC:

    “Here are some observations:
    1. The new CCA must have officers to be a legal entity, so we’re back to the Moses Model.
    2. The Moses Model is Episcopal in church governance as stated by Chuck Smith in Calvary Chapel Distinctives **.
    3. Episcopal governance is hierarchical in structure with the chief authority over a congregation residing in a bishop and is patterned after Roman Catholic Church structure.
    4. Episcopal church government was the only form of church organization until the Reformation.
    5. Reformation government is presbyterian and congregational based on plurality of co-equal elders.
    6. Calvary Chapel will become increasingly catholic in character and stress the Arminian traditions of the Roman Catholic Church.
    7. Based on local church pastor’s authority autonomy, and a lack of accountability, I submit the following title changes.
    a. CCA = Holy See
    b. CCA President or General Manager = Pope
    c. Regional Leader / Sandy Adams = Cardinal
    d. Regional Committee / John Pillivant / Troy Warner = Archbiships or Diocesan Bishops
    e. Local Pastors = Bishops”

    Today, while reviewing CC Assoc. website and the Statement of Beliefs, I stopped dead on #4.

    In stating their position on man’s authority over the woman, the also slipped in what I view is a type of “papacy” edict, if you will. This one sentence is cloister in all that Rick suggested. It states:

    “We believe this limits the roles of pastoral leadership and doctrinal authority to qualified men (1 Corinthians 11:1-12, 1 Timothy 2:1-15).”

    In my mind, they could explain this away by saying that it was in reference to the sentance they made regarding the subordination of women. Which I don’t agree with anyway, but that’s another topic. “DOCTRINAL AUTHORITY,” “TO QUALIFIED MEN,”
    is what is sending my spiritual attennas up and crying: HERESY.

    Please comment on this Alex, Rick, and anyone else.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 1, 2012 at 12:20 pm

  76. Sorry, that should have been #6 on Rick Gross list.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 1, 2012 at 12:28 pm

  77. Chuck S

    I guess it all comes down to them giving an account to why they would permit a person to train or be in the pulpit or any other ministry when practicing adultery and spousal abuse. And isn’t this some of the things that we have been speaking of on this site. I think in part the answer is many are covering up their sins in this area and would feel like a hypocrite holding him to an account for doing what we know some of CC have done. That is just one justification that may be, being used.

    By the way, why do you refer to my husband as my ex spouse? Legally, and biblically he remains married to me. And that is easily verified by court records. So, whoever he may be showing other documents to that states otherwise, he is lying because the documents are not valid. Not only is this a state offense, it could also be a Federal, and possibly an International offense. Biblically speaking, it is an abomination to the Lord and it does grieve the Holy Spirit.

    God hates divorce. My husband has no biblical grounds to divorce me. I choose not to enable his adulterous choices by being bullied into leaving our marriage. It has costs me dearly, never the less, i stand and ask others to stand with me in fighting the good fight for our marriage as well as for my husbands soul.

    For CC not to hold him to an account they then share in his sin. Among many other things. As for me, just read Alex’s comments on his own abuse experiences and attempt to hold BG to an account. You’ll get the picture.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 1, 2012 at 2:30 pm

  78. Has anyone noticed this about CCA?

    “For almost forty years Chuck Smith has served the Lord and served the Body of Christ around the world”

    2 Administrator Overseer Moses/Aaron
    11 Regions 11 Tribes
    22 Region Leaders (2 or more each region) Like Joshua/Caleb
    40 Team Members

    The same numbers were used in the days of Moses. \

    And as Andrew pointed out @ 34: We believe this limits the roles of pastoral leadership and doctrinal authority to qualified men (1 Corinthians 11:1-12, 1 Timothy 2:1-15).

    “doctrinal authority” What on earth? “qualified men”

    How absolutely arrogant, comtemptuous, and ignorant of God’s word can CC be?

    Please, I now bare personal knowledge (witness) that in speaking to various CC pastors, that they wouldn’t know a doctrinal statement if it hit right between the eyes. Instead, I was directed to the CC Directives which falls sevetely short in constituting a doctrinal statement. Not all the pastors I have spoken to reflected this, for about 10% knew the difference between the two. Sad, to report.

    What more, I just visited the CCBC site to take a look at the list of teachers/instructors. People, this is not college of any scholastic significance. It is a school to indoctrinate and to promote Chuch Smith’s understanding of scripture only. I was shocked and dismayed at this list. No wonder they are not accredited.

    It’s the blind leading the blind, not being able to see beyond itself, if even that.

    Chuch Smith landed on a gold mine. Using the lost and feeding them “the once saved, alway saved” ticket, but you know what, Chuck Smith stopped short of Romans 8, beginning with: NKJV Romans 8:1:

    “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, “who do not” walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

    Even as a young girl attending catechims class every Saturday, our teaching included the list of doctrinal beliefs. The same one that protestant use, by the way. Yet, in Calvary Chapel, not even the Pastors know what they are and therefore they are not taught.

    Although raised a Catholic, I never knew the significance of Jesus hanging from the cross. It was through watching “Fury to Freedom,” the Holy Spirit touch my heart at Calvary Chapel, Cypress with Jack Stevens (deceased), a pastor who studied to show himself approved, a workman that need not to be afraid. A pastor who loved his flock dearly and ran the race and I believe attain the prize that was promised to those who not just talk, but truely walk the walk with our blessed Lord and Savior.

    Jack Stevens encouraged us to diligently search the scriptures, like the Bereans. He taught the doctrinal statements. He did not just teach the Bible, line by line, he delve deeplly beyond the confines of what Chuck Smith and his associates had written. And then he taught us to do the same. Thank you, Jack for truely loving us.

    Hosea 4:6

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 6, 2012 at 8:20 pm

  79. Correction: THEM right between the eyes. Instead, I was directed to the CC DISTINCTIVE.

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 6, 2012 at 8:31 pm

  80. Alex,

    I read through this thread again and your post that stated:

    “Dave Rolph. Dave did an “investigation” but hid behind the “there’s nothing actionable this moment” in terms of a law enforcement issue as statute of limitations has passed on the physical child abuse.

    caught my attention.

    I am going to say this in bold, but please know it is not directed at you Alex.

    SINCE WHEN DOES MAN’S LAW DICTATE THE SCRIPTURE MANDATE THAT SUCH A PERSON BE DISCIPLINE BY THE CHURCH.

    I can only imagine what God will say to this answer Mr. Rolph gave to you and your brothers. What in God’s name are you thinking CC leadership? Do you really think God sees this as having a statute of limitation upon these things. Woe to each one of you. In the name of the Lord, I stand in the Light to shed a witness against you and now putting you on notice, as much as God has told us to do. How dare you call one another a pastor. How dare you say you have been chosen. How dare you say that you are men who are qualified to hold doctrinal authority. Repent and make right the harm that you enabled and perpetuate upon these children, as well as so many others. Simply because you refused follow Scripture regarding such offenses to those who you say have authority over us.

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 6, 2012 at 9:54 pm

  81. Correction:

    Simply because you refused follow Scripture regarding such offenses “done by those” who you say have authority over us. Chuck Smith knew about this. He does not have clean hands, any more than Bob Grenier does and Dave Rolph. And throughout the days, months, years how many more CC “pastor” had knowledge, but did nothing to either let someone else handle it or stood by “man’s statute of limitation” law to ignore it.

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 7, 2012 at 7:23 am

  82. To have permitted all this time to passed by does not make these things pass away. Oh, perhaps in the minds of those who knew about the things that took place with Alex and his family. But not in the minds of those who were victimized by their abuser and then again, and again, and again by CC leadership at large.

    All due to your unwillingness to step up to the plate and take the risk of losing your seat at the table of one who should have, could have, but did not due the excuse of “statute of limitation?” Alex has been posting and writing and calling and yet, not one of you will openly say, “THIS IS ENOUGH.” I HAVE HEARD THE CRIES ALEX AND HIS FAMILY AND I WILL DO ALL THAT IS WITHIN ME TO NOT LET THIS BE IGNORED, EVEN IF IT MEANS GIVING UP MY SEAT AT THE TABLE, FOR I AM CALLED OF CHRIST, NOT CHUCK SMITH TO GIVE AN ANSWER FOR SPEAKING OR NOT SPEAKING UP CONCERNING THE ABUSE AND OPRESSION THAT ALEX FAMILY HAS SUFFERED AS WELL AS OTHERS.

    One day the Lord will put His call out to sit at His banquest table. Just because you who teach God’s word, it does not mean that you will be there. It’s not about “getting” people to accept the gospel message, as the Holy Spirit does this, using people who aren’t even saved. Your calling is to be a pastor who loves the flock so much that you are willing to die for it, for the sake of the cross that bored our sins, so that you (and the rest of us), as a pastor would be bold enough to stand up and say to Alex, his family, and the rest of us who are being or have been abused: “I BEING ONE PASTOR, AN AFFILIATE OF CALVARY CHAPELS WILL MAKE THIS MY AIM TO STAND UP AND BE A CHAMPION FOR THIS MAN AND HIS FAMILY, rather than to behave as though Alex, as well as others who have left CC, but reached back to make their abuse known, are easily replaced and forgotten and viewed as an enemy, rather than part of the flock, the very body of Christ, that he told you to protect and to love.

    Who among you that call yourself Godly men called to be Pastor will heed these words and do the deeds that goes beyond just preaching and teaching the Word? May it begin with Alex Grenier and his family. And may each of you follow Pastor Jeff’s letter for truly, you don’t really know what abuse is and how the statute of limitation is useless in resolving those things that still remains to be an huge blot upon the leadership of CC.

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:21 am

  83. Linda@78 Even as a young girl attending catechims class every Saturday, our teaching included the list of doctrinal beliefs. The same one that protestant use, by the way. Yet, in Calvary Chapel, not even the Pastors know what they are and therefore they are not taught.

    Although raised a Catholic, I never knew the significance of Jesus hanging from the cross. It was through watching “Fury to Freedom,” the Holy Spirit touch my heart at Calvary Chapel, Cypress with Jack Stevens (deceased), a pastor who studied to show himself approved, a workman that need not to be afraid. A pastor who loved his flock dearly and ran the race and I believe attain the prize that was promised to those who not just talk, but truely walk the walk with our blessed Lord and Savior
    ++++++++++++++++++

    Linda,
    Didn’t you say somehwere that you were Jewish?
    Or is this someone else you are quoting?

    by Hannah on Oct 8, 2012 at 2:14 pm

  84. Hannah, yes I am — very convoluted, but nevertheless Jewish by heritage.

    Luxury of having exposure to many different cultures and faith.

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 8, 2012 at 8:35 pm

  85. Hannah, this happens when society places a stigma upon one’s gender, race, ethnic, or religious affilication (faith).

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 8, 2012 at 8:37 pm

  86. sorry, “affiliation” LOL

    by Linda Pappas on Oct 8, 2012 at 8:38 pm

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