This article describes what should be the Model, rather than the Moses Model. It looks, smells and feels like Jesus in contrast to what is currently normative in much of Evangelicalism.
I’m rarely surprised in a good way. This is one of those times.
A pastor in Tillamook, Oregon gets it…like no other I’ve seen to date.
Pastor Jeff Crippen, thank you. God is speaking through you with regards to these issues, IMO, and they are important words for the Evangelical Church at large.
Please share this with as many as you can. If this becomes normative for Evangelicalism, Calvary Chapel, you-name-it…what an awesome and righteous thing we’d see…
The following letter is a tool that I have written. My desire is that it be sent to pastors to help open their eyes to the misuse of power and control in their churches, and to caution them regarding how very easily any of us can become guilty of lording it over our people.
In particular, I want to assist pastors and church leaders to understand that one extremely common scenario which is occurring in our conservative, Bible-believing churches with alarming regularity, concerns how we are mishandling cases of abuse (both domestic and sexual) that are brought to our attention and/or occurring right under our noses within our own congregations.
Readers are freely granted permission to reproduce this letter and use it to good ends. Please do not alter or change the wording. We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who uses this as a tool to call the body of Christ to justice and wisdom in dealing with the oppressed.
To the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Pastor Jeff Crippen,
Tillamook, Oregon
Letter to Fellow Pastors
Dear Pastor:
The evil of domestic and sexual abuse is in our midst. By “our,” I mean our conservative, Bible-believing churches. Churches just like the one I have pastored for nearly 20 years now. We are not doing well in confronting the perpetrators nor in effecting justice and kindness for their victims.
None of us learned about this evil in seminary. As a result, we are largely blind to it. Lest you think that you surely would see it if it were in your church, and that for the most part your church is free of it, let me assure you that those very thoughts reveal our blindness. The evil of domestic and sexual abuse either was – is – or is going to be in your church. And even more frightening is the confirmed fact that when it comes to your congregation, you (like me in the past) will not deal with it rightly, if you even see it at all. None of us would like to think that we would ever be an ally of evil against an oppressed victim. Yet this is what will indeed happen in your church and ministry unless you prepare yourself.
Permit me, if you will, to share my story with you in the hope that you can learn from it, and that we might all then bring the glory to Christ which we desire to.
How Our Church Did Things
First, let me share with you some of the lessons the Lord has had to teach me over the years, and which I am still learning. It took some really hard “knocks” from Him to get my attention. In seeking to reform this church, myself and our elders wrote a new book of church order (bylaws). In what we believed to be faithfulness to Scripture, we instituted the following practices:
- Women could not vote. The men, as the head of their families and wives, voted.
- Women could not pray aloud in prayer meetings. Only the men.
Our church was, and still is, virtually entirely home school families. Men were to be the head of their homes and women were to be in submission to their husbands. Books such as “Me Obey Him?” and child-raising materials from ultra-conservative organizations circulated among us (the kind that basically say: homeschooling is God’s will for every Christian family, etc).
We truly desired to do “better” in following Christ than all the other typical local churches around us that were, in our opinion, largely compromised with the world. No one sat down and mapped this all out. We embraced these things over time.
The Lord Arrested Our Attention
And then the Lord blew the lid off of our pride. I won’t give the details, but a terrible incident of sexual abuse of a child occurred among us. At the same time we found ourselves being recruited by an abusive man as allies against his wife. These are the things that divide churches!
These events propelled me into the study of abuse, domestic and sexual, in an effort to better understand how these things had crept up on us and what we needed to repent of. I wanted to know if there were signs we could look for that would help us detect abusers and their victims much earlier. And so I began to read.
Over time, and by no means at my own doing, we came to realize that we had created an environment in our church that was abuser-friendly. Evil-friendly. We, as leaders, had encouraged our men to lord it over their wives and families rather than loving them. We had created an environment that was unbiblically oppressive to women. Myself and our elders, over some period of time, began to realize this – by the Lord’s mercy in showing us – and we began to make some changes.
Implementing some Positive Changes
Women in the church can now vote. Women can pray aloud in prayer meetings. In the course of preaching my sermon series on abuse, I acknowledged to our church (and I have continued to do so) that we had not done enough when teaching and preaching on the subjects of marriage, headship, and submission.
We had failed to clearly describe what headship is not, and what submission is not. We came to the realization that abuse – a pattern of coercive control employing any one or more of emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual, physical, financial and social mistreatment of the other spouse – is indeed biblical grounds for divorce and that we would no longer insist that a husband or wife was required by the Lord to remain in a relationship in which the marriage vows had been habitually broken.
We rejected what we consider to be unbiblical and exaggerated patriarchy that is promoted so widely by books and organizations within our conservative Christian circles. We still cling solidly to the position of the inerrancy and infallibility of God’s Word and thus are by no means getting on some liberal “band-wagon” to make everyone happy.
We are calling upon other conservative, Bible-believing churches and pastors to do the same things and to stop creating abuser-friendly cultures in our churches. It is important to become educated and wise in regard to the mentality and tactics of abuse.
My first steps
My first step in this process in our own church, with the support of our elders, was to preach a 21 part sermon series entitled “The Psychology of Evil.” Why that title? Because you will not find any more fruitful field of study to help you understand evil in its bare, essential form than the study of the psychology and methods of the abuser. Behind his deceptive facade, the abuser is a living, breathing textbook on evil.
I highly recommend to you the following books: Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Our own book due to be published in the Fall of 2012, A Cry for Justice: How the Evil of Domestic Abuse Hides in Your Church. Not Under Bondage, by Barbara Roberts; and the two fine books by George Simon Jr., In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance.
Getting a Grip
I would like to make a suggestion to you that may well be as hard for you to hear as it was for me, originally. It is simply this – if you have been dealing with a marriage in your church in which one spouse has been claiming to have been abused, and if that situation (as it so often does) has come to the point of threatening the unity of your church, or at least being something like a thorn to you that just won’t go away, then the source of the problem may very probably rest with you and your leadership rather than with the marriage partners themselves. I have had to face up to this personally and as I said, it took the Lord giving me some pretty hard blows to get my attention.
What do I mean that the real problem very likely rests with you? I mean that if your church is characterized by any or all of the following mentalities and philosophies, then evil, abusive individuals will find it a friendly place for them, and victims will suffer. Injustices will be done to victims, all the while the leaders believing they are handling things scripturally.
Taking Stock
Therefore, if your church:
- Embraces a theology that presumes a church member/professing Christian really is a Christian, regardless of how they are living,
- Emphasizes the headship of the husband and father and the submission of the wife and mother without getting right down to the “nitty-gritty” of what abuse of headship actually looks like, so that the men in the church even “squirm” in the pew if they are guilt,
- Does not, like we used to, permit women to vote or to pray aloud,
- Teaches that the marriage covenant is not to be broken, that divorce is wrong. That sounds biblical, but what it usually translates into is the clear implication that abuse is not grounds for divorce. That abuse victims, normally women, are pleasing God and suffering for Christ by remaining in a marriage to an abuser,
- Discourages (in some cases forbids) a wife from saying anything negative about her husband,
…then I suggest to you that it is not fundamentally the troubled marriage that is threatening the health of your church, but it is the climate that has been created which inevitably deals injustice to victims.
Injustice Destroys Unity
As more and more people in the congregation begin to realize this injustice, unity is destroyed. As we, pastors and leaders, dig our heels in further, all the while telling ourselves that we are standing faithful for Christ in this, we only add fuel to the fire.
There was still another hard thing that I had to face: just what do we think of women? The fact is that most conservative, Bible-believing pastors like ourselves actually look down upon women. We see them as inferior beings. We object to this charge, but our actions betray our real attitudes.
I had to ask myself, “Jeff, just exactly what is it that is going on in your head when a woman walks into your office and asks for help?” The answer I ultimately saw was “I see her as an inferior being and I talk down to her.” Really, and with ruthless honesty – “What does Pastor _________ think about a woman who walks into his office?” “What does he think about his wife?” Don’t rush to answers. The first responses we give are usually wrong.
Pastor, if you and your church are dedicated, Bible-believing Christians who have been working to do your best to serve Christ, the chances are quite high that you have made some of the very same errors we did. From my study of the growing number of cases of abuse uncovered in our churches, from hearing case after case of victims who have been terribly treated at our hands, I venture to say that you are not immune to these errors.
Seeking a Remedy
This means that, as in our case, the remedy for the threatened division or injustices rendered in your church lies mostly with you and your leadership, not with any one situation you are dealing with. That is to say, my prescription is that you and your leaders plead with the Lord to show you things that need to be repented of and changed.
What would happen in your church if you went before your people, after some genuine self-examination, and confessed to them that you have not done well in this matter. If you stated that you have created an oppressive environment for women. State that by God’s grace you are resolved to set about making it right? What if you went to any specific woman in a particular case you have handled, and confessed these things to her? And then set out to re-tool the culture of your church?
Many times we tell ourselves that these abuse victims (sometimes men, but usually women) who come to us asking for help have a “log” in their own eye and are just looking for the speck in their spouse’s eye. But, brother, I tell you that I had said the same thing about people in those kinds of situations many times. I am afraid that now I see there was an even bigger log in my own eye.
Persecution for Christ or Oppression of the Weak?
In order to do that, I had to put aside my oft-repeated argument that I was “standing for Christ’s truth and was being persecuted by sinful people.” Yes, persecution is going to come if we stand for Christ. But when we are doing wrong, when we are oppressing the oppressed and being duped by evil, the fallout is not persecution for Christ. It is the bad fruit of our own crippled thinking and wrong-doing.
I trust you take these words in the spirit they are given. They are meant to do good to Christ’s church, to your ministry, and to the souls of those you oversee. I realize that in some cases these things are calling for radical change on your part. All I can say is that we have made those radical changes here and are still working on them – and we aren’t looking back.
In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jeff Crippen, Pastor
Tillamook, Oregon
Thanks to Julie Anne at BGBC Survivors for sharing this article with me. If the Canon were still open…this should be in it IMO.
Thanks to pastor Jeff Crippen. AMEN in 100,000,000 size font. Good stuff!
Here is a great tool. It is a tough read, but very informative nd it offers practical tools.
http://www.millstonejustice.org/Pages/TheBook.html
This is excellent!
My spouse and I both noticed the number of couples in our CC who had separated, with the wife having left the church saying the “leadership” was “on the husband’s side” so they could not get any help.
One wife said her husband, who had taught Bible in the church, put a gun to her head and threatened to kill her and her kids. When she got away and called the pastor he said, “Well, if he killed the kids they’d be in heaven.” No, I’m not exaggerating. That man left, abandoning his family. The church did not help this woman and her kids enough to even count what was done. Seemed the pastor looked down on this woman and others followed his example.
One of the estranged husbands told us that he was upset his wife wasn’t going to work. She had had his baby, plus 3 teens of her own, and 3 kids of his. He moved out into an apartment, ceased paying the mortgage and paying for the food and bills. She told the pastor and the blame was laid at her feet. She said she did not “feel welcome” at the church. Understandably she left … deeply wounded. But I remember hearing the leadership spin that she was obviously not a real Christian since she’d left the church. She was certainly not treated with the respect and compassion that she should have been. Meanwhile, the man was able to continue on the worship team till he married his third wife and left that church. Never once was he confronted, challenged, or encouraged to do right by the second wife … or if he even had biblical grounds to divorce her and remarry.
Many more stories encapsulate this attitude of disrespect for women that we’ve seen in CC’s and some of the other Bible believing churches.
I highly respect Jeff Crippen and his elders for recognizing something was wrong, seeking God’s perspective on it, repenting, and changing the culture they had created. Wow! Now, that’s amazing!
First of all, thank you Lord for answering my prayers. Secondly, thank you Pastor (I don’t call many this any more) Jeff Crippon for stepping out, for repenting, and for reading Lundy Bancroft’s book, to turn things around in your church. Thank you, for speaking your heart to other Pastors. Thank you——with tears flowing down my cheeks, thank you..
I am such a woman who remains in hiding speaking the truth being threatened so many times by my husband and ignored by his pastor and affliate pastors. I actually gave his pastor a copy of Lundy’s book, saying that the author was like a fly on the wall as what he had to say was precisely the things I had experienced in the face of my husband’s ability to exploit and dupe everyone else. Now my husband plans to be a pastor, as well. My own husband showed me 4 bullets which I also made his pastor aware. As far as I know he continues to live an adulteress life with all the bells and whistles, while discrediting me and giving an appearance of the victim instead and a godly one at that.
So, when Alex posted this, I immediately sent a copy by email to the contacts that I have across the United States, to hopefully stop this from happening to anyone else.
For those reading this, please do not turn your face from us anymore. It is real, it did, it does, and it is happening. Please open your eyes and ears to me and for those who I am stepping out to cry one more time out to—-repent, listen to Pastor Jeff’s letter. And stop the abuse. Believe us when we try to tell you that we are being abused, disrspected, and you being a pastor need to set the example and lead the church into a zero tolerance of such things. What you think is a predator looks just like you and me. What you think is abuse is just touching the tip of the iceberg. When a person say they have repented, don’t believe them—–ask the person they have abused, and whatever you do, don’t be so prideful looking down upon a woman and tell her in the face of her abuse, that you, because you think you are a good judge of character, you are going to give her husband a pass, while refusing to meet with her alone apart form her abuser. And don’t ever recommend she participate in marital counseling as if she causes or is responsible for being abused. Most of all, do not leave to the abuser to decide the fate of his wife and her well-being or who she is or is not permitted to speak to, including yourself.
Alex, Jeff, Theresa, thank you for the part each of you played and are playing in enabling these things to not be buried, ignored, or silenced. I have been crying all day long praying and asking God to now let the floodgates open regarding the things Pastor Jeff has shared. It is real, it is happening, and our pastors need to stop it. Please, to everyone else, remember those like me who live in terror due to one man’s ability and the overriding attitude and disrespect afforded to females in the church by those who say they are in the Lord. I am not the only one out here — there are so many of us. Please contact Pastor Jeff to start the process of repentance, education, and reconciliation to restore the trust we once held so close to our hearts. One voice who remains on her knees praying for her husband and the church body at large.
Linda: Your response has moved me to tears. I could feel the pain in your words. I’m so sorry you were treated disrespectfully and people turned their back on you. It’s hard to find words to say when you hear of this kind of abuse and abandonment. Jeff’s letter is being spread around the internet. It’s a good start.
Julie,
Words just doesn’t seem to fit what I would like to express from my heart in gratitude that you would be willing to do this. I want so much to believe that somehow and some way, my sisters and brothers in the Lord will rise up and do all they can to stop this.
More than anything, your care and thoughts are so precious to me. You cannot imagine. Thank you, Julie. May the Lord bless you for touching me and trying to make a difference. Please don’t stop praying on my behalf—for it is a powerful weapon against the poisonous darts of the enemy. These things don’t just happen in the movies. So, please blow the trumphets and let others know there are many of us who are being persecuted from with the church and it makes our struggles even more difficult. But oh, the things I could share in the ways that God has sutained me even in the midst of great and seemingly hopeless circumstances. My hope and trust remains in Him. I constantly think about that song: “I can only imagine.” That is the day that I long to come.
So much grief and heartache, brings me to know a small part although seemingly great of what our Lord must have suffered in the midst of His great love for all.
Psalms 109: 1-5
“Pastors” who support the abuser should be considered to be promoting, aiding and abetting the violence against women and their children. It is a crime, a felony, and they should not be off the hook because they are in the pulpit! A “pastor” who does these things is not acting in a Christ-like manner and the behavior suggests he is not a man of faith and is undeserving of respect.
An Attorney: Thank you for continually speaking out and defending the abused. Your have an amazing heart.
Linda: I would like to blow the trumpets louder. I would like to give you an opportunity to share on my blog and allow your voice to be heard a little louder. You speak from your heart and so many would connect with you. Please contact me if this is something you would like to do: bgbcsurvivors@gmail.com
~Julie Anne
I think Jeff’s letter his pretty on but one thing that concerns me is this statement
“a pattern of coercive control employing any one or more of emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual, physical, financial and social mistreatment of the other spouse – is indeed biblical grounds for divorce ”
The problem with the above statement is that it is too open ended and thereby can cause many divorces as lets face it at one time or another in any given marriage there may be any one of those forms of abuse during a given period in the marriage. I don’t think the bible supports divorce for some of the above. If the above is true then I guess mnay men can alos biblically divorce their spouses as well. See it opens up a candy jar especially in the case ofr emotional and spiritual abuse as those are harder to quantify. Sexual abuse, physical abuse I say run away from your spouse far away and don’t reconcile until they get real help and repent. Nothing wrong with turning your spouse into the police either in those cases. However, divorce for the other reasons seems too open ended. Even financial abuse can be based on ones own interpretation. For example I may be frugal and my wife may ne a spender so if I put a tight grip on our finances she could always say I’m controlling rather than a good steward, ultimately a wife and husband need to be accountable to each other and as a husband I would never let a Pastor come between me and my wife.
Solomon – So how do you assess which reason would qualify for divorce and who gets to be the judge? I think that is what a lot of divorced people are dealing with. They may have suffered abuse in their marriage and then they have to go on trial/jury at church to see if it met the criteria. That almost feels like re-victimizing. Let’s say someone moved to a new area and at a new church – - is the new pastor going to interrogate each new member about the reasons for divorce? I’ve never thought about this stuff until recently and frankly, I’m alarmed. These are serious issues. What seems to be lacking, however, is grace in so many of these cases. Another thing that seems to be lacking is someone walking alongside the couple in the thick of things and providing accountability.
Dear Solomon,
Your point is well taken by one who has been betrayed and abused. However, this is what many say when not understanding or going beyond this in gaining the information that would clear most of this up. What happens all too often is a person will stop at the point that you made and like Pontius Pilate did with Jesus, not knowing the truth, try to wash his hands and leave it for someone else to handle.
Domestic violence or any type of abuse is not that ambiguous. This is why Pastor Jeff provided a strong recommendation to get a copy of the book by Lundy Bancroft, as well as to read other materials. It wasn’t a suggestion, as much as it was a direction to follow in order break down the ignorrance that so many have in church leadership regarding these issues.
Please do not get stuck on the point that you made. Educate yourself, then do something about it to stop the abuse and to help the victim, as well as, to enable the offender to get treatment that falls along the lines of what Mr. Bancroft recommends, not these anger management programs that miss the mark entirely. It’s not about anger. It’s about control and power. Men do not abuse because they are angry. They are angry because they abuse. Meaning that anger is used to control and to silence their victim.
This next statement is not directed at you, Solomon, but is stated in general. Those who are able to provide intervention within the church, but do not due to 3 primary reasons:
(1) There attitude towards women is such that it does not enable them to see woman as being equal with them or their husbands. Therefore, the woman is to be treated and seen as a silent partner. Women are to do all the “menial” tasks in the church, while men are attending the more “important” issues. Even though men will say how important it is for the women to take on these “roles” that men have ascribed to them, in their hearts they perceived them to be that which is either too time consuming for men need to do, or such that does not enable a person to intefere with the decision making processes that involves church affairs.
(2) Pastoral Leadership and brothers have a distorted view of what constitutes being male and female. Their pride and ego blinds them from being teachable and the social environment that they came out of determines what it means to be a man vs. woman. Although they will argue that the role of each gender is biblical, in truth it is to feed their need to be in control rather than to honor and protect the woman. Even though they may say that women are equal with men only different in their roles, that is a free fall into circling back into oppressing a woman and silencing her at the same time. When the words “submit” and “obey” are used it is done so to feed into the pride and egos of men, rather than to make it clear that this is only in terms of coming together in agreement that above all, God would not be dishonored in a decision being made. Instead, what happens in reality is that men are being taught and encouraged to dominate instead of leading. And woman are being oppressed and subjugated. That constitues abuse and God has made it clear that this is not the purpose of being the head of a church or in the home. What this does is open the doors for the our men in our churches, including in the pulpit to practice all kinds of corruption and commit a violence against the very souls of women and children without being held to an account and doing so all in the name of the Lord.
(3) The structural foundation that is in place that promotes a separation between the pastoral leadership and the larger body that they are supposedly serving. The lack of a grievance process available to congregants and the uneven and prejudicial position that is so evident in lacking objectivity in affording “all” female and male, and even children to be able to be heard when giving an account regarding an offense without being subjected to having to do so initially with their abuser present, if at all in some extreme cases.
(4) Fear of being sued by an abuser, therefore, refusal to become involved in implementing steps to hold to an account while supporting the abused.
(5) Lack of membership, lack of membership status, and lack of membership that is equal with both genders.
(6) Leadership is more like a company and its congregants are customers.
(6) Fear of change or fear of losing money and lifestyle or being held to an account for committing similar or same offenses.
So, as Pastor Jeff has attempted to speak to other Pastors it is my hope and my prayer that men like yourself would not get stuck on the point that you made and move forward in his counsel to stop the abuse and stand up in the name of God to help the church to repent and to enable its victims to heal and to hopefully be reconciled with those that have harmed them.
Linda/Julie,
The problem is Jeff is still stuck in an archaic mindset, one being that Men are the primary abusers in marriages. This simply isn’t as true today as it once was and that is the problem I see in man ychurches today that they have archaic mindsets in regards to marriages. I know many marriages where the woman is the perpetrator in abuse whether financial, physical, verbal or emotional. I think abuse is no respector of genders. I mean a woman with a weapon in her hand can do as much damage as a man with his fists. So if a woman is verbally/emotionally abusive to her husband, does that husband have a right to divorce his wife?
Linda/Julie,
I don’t believe in organized religion so I really can’t offer anything within that system that may help victims of abuse. I think the Pastor as the one man show system is wrong and of course many of them love to interfere in marriages. I for one would never allow a man to counsel my wife one on one even if he had the title of CEO oops I meant Pastor. Men need to love, protect and honor their wives and never alloow another man to interefere in their marriage. I beleive the husband is the head of the wife not the Pastor.
Linda/Julie,
Check out this article from wickedshepherds.com
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/AWordtotheWives.html
Solomon,
You are still missing the whole point of Pastor Jeff’s letter. Read the book by Lundy Bancroft, instead trying establish the if’s. Abuse, betrayal, and leaven is not up for debate. Educate yourself and do what is necessary to eradicate these things from the body of Christ.
Then you will be have answered your own questions rather than to get into discussing or making this a gender issue. Of course, men are abused by woman as well, but not on the level or the frequency as woman are men. Please, as a man stop arguing with Pastor Jeff’s counsel. Follow his directins in reading the materials he’s recommended and do what is necessary to heal the church and its victims.
Solomon
You would not “allow” your wife. Hmmmmm.
Linda,
I hear what you are saying but I am no longer part of the Instituional Church so my help remains outside of that organized structure. There was a woman recently that came up to me when i was preaching in Downtown L.A. and she gave me her story of physical abuse at the hands of her husband who happened to be an asst. Pastor. I helped her find a domestic violence shelter here in L.A., I guess noe of her sisters in the Lord wanted to give her shelter. Either way she asked me if she should get a divorce and I told her that is not for me to say but that if she does wish to reconcile her marriage then she needs to make sure that her husband has gotten professional help and repents
Good for you Sol Rod!
“You would not “allow” your wife. Hmmmmm.”
No I would not want my wife to counsel one on one with a Man, point blank. The title of Pastor does not impress me. Please read the article from the link I posted.
Of course if my wife insisted on going to a man I can’t physically stop her but their will be problems in our marriage because of that. Just like I wouldn’t go to a woman for counsel on my marriage.
Linda said:
“Please, as a man stop arguing with Pastor Jeff’s counsel. Follow his directins in reading the materials he’s recommended and do what is necessary to heal the church and its victims”
I do have a right to question things even coming from a Pastor. I agree with him that the culture in many church organizations needs to change however I balk at just allowing divorce for unbiblical reasons.
Solomon,
I read the article. What I read was scary because it exemplies the mindst of a very dominating and abusive male. No wonder you didn’t want the church to be involve with issues that affected your marriage and your wife’s spiritual development.
For her sake, I hope you find a good counselor that can work with you to add some balance in your relationsip with your wife. You might have her get her own counseling as I imagine she has been quite traumatized being that she doesn’t have a voice and have not been able to talk to anyone other than you. At least that is the sense that I am getting from this article.
Seriously, Solomon—-your article is really out there, guy.
Solomon,
“I do have a right to question things even coming from a Pastor. I agree with him that the culture in many church organizations needs to change however I balk at just allowing divorce for unbiblical reasons.”
By all means, you do, but my question is what you going to do to help change this? Other than what you artile has suggested, that is.
I think once you understand what abuse and domestic viiolene consttutes, you may change your mind on this somewhat. But then again, I don’t know. Since your are not part of a fellowship anymore and being a church of 2, then having everything the way you deem that it needs to be—-hmmm. I don’t get why you are spending the time and effort to do this, I suppose.
Sounds like what you have going with your wife is a very closed, rigid, and controlled system. Not healthy spiritually or otherwise. At best, I would feel as though I was a hostage led by a husband that is off his rocker.
Sorry, I got distracted: “By all means, you do, but my question is what you going to do to help change this? Other than what you artile has suggested, that is.
Should read: By all means, you do. But my question to you, is what are you going to do to help change this? Other han what your article has suggested, that is.
Linda,
I do fellowship with a group of believers but it is outside the Orgainzed Church System as we meet from house to house with other believers. My wife then would fellowship with women and me with men and both of us with other couples or even singles.
Linda said:
“I think once you understand what abuse and domestic viiolene consttutes, you may change your mind on this somewhat. But then again, I don’t know.”
I was 18 and in a relationship with a 33 year old woman who was physically abusive to the point where she almost killed me. She was controlling possesive, jealous and din’t even want me working. She got me fired from three jobs. She stabbed me, threw a nine milimeter at me and hit me in the back, she hit me with a hammer, a metal rod etc etc. She hiot me with a broom stick, her fists, her feet all that stuff. She threw hot coffee at me, cheated on me all that fun stuff. She lied to me that she was 25 until she got sick and I took her to the hopsital only to find out she was 25. She was a con artist and to this day her whereabouts are unknown. This was in 1992-93
She cut me off from my family by calling them behind my back and cussing them out and even telling my step mother that she was having an affair with my father, she used a different voice and name to pull that one off. Let’s just say that I was blackballed by the family for awhile.
I lived with her for two years so I know what abuse is all about from the front row.
Linda said:
“Sounds like what you have going with your wife is a very closed, rigid, and controlled system. Not healthy spiritually or otherwise. At best, I would feel as though I was a hostage led by a husband that is off his rocker.”
you just have to protect your marriage from outside influences. I amy be off my rocker but you know what a wife of mine can say that she is protected and loved.
As for me, I have no desire to divorce my husband, even though there are biblical grounds. He would very much like to divorce me, but in a way that would not expose the wrongs he has done. So he what he does is bullies, threatens, and terrorizes in order to keep me away, hoping I will give up on our marriage, commit suicide, or die in the many ways that he has suggested.
Although others, including pastors have shared with me to go ahead and do what I can to end our marriage, base on being betrayed and abandoned, and God’s permissive will, I refused to do this. Because it is not God’s perfect will. Nor is it His will that my husband becmes a pastor as long as he remain unreconciled to me and our marriage. Nor is it God’s will that this be ignored by the church and its leadership. Period.
Solomon, I am deeply grieved that you experienced all of that. You didn’t say if you were married to her, but I am glad that you decided to move away from her.
If you had been married to her, and she being an unbeliever on the basis of her abusive behavior towards you, would you have divorced her? Or would you have stayed in the marriage, even though spiritually, emotionally, physically, and psychologically abandoning, rejecting, and betraying you?
And if you did have the support of your family as well as the church leadership, do you think it could have help you through the healing process and enable you to be able to trust others in the light of being so horribly abused, betrayed, and violated?
Solomon, one other thought or question I guess.
Is it possible that because you did not have this support while going through this horrendous experienced that you described in an earlier relationship, that you have now developed this type of relationship with your wife where it does not permit her to go to a spiritual source other than a woman, or yourself? That when your wife did speak to the pastor who was pastoring both of you, then made a visit to talk with you, and suggested separation, you saw it as a threat and an intrustion instead?
How terribly sad all around for everyone sake.
Solomon, I’m so sorry to hear this happened to you.
linda, glad you are here.
Sol, I agree with you that abuse is no respecter of genders. I have also noticed that most churches that I have gone to are far outweighed by women than men. Sometimes there are 3 to 4 times the number of women in the church than men. Why is this? It is a question I have not found an answer to but I do think Solomon is onto something.
Linda – I’m sorry, I am just picking up bits and pieces of your story and trying to understand. I am simply blown away by what you are sharing of your marriage. Are you currently living together with your husband? When you say that pastors have given you advice – are those pastors in general or your pastors? Are your pastors getting involved in your situation? Are they meeting with your husband?
Once again, I am very saddened to read of the pain you are going through. I’m going through a certain situation right now that has made me especially sensitive to what you are presently dealing with. Now that it is up close and personal, it’s like I am seeing things through different eyes. I am thankful to God that He has me going through this because I think normally, I might not have been able to “get” what you are going through. Know that you are not alone, Linda. As long as I am blogging, I will be fighting and speaking out for people like you. God does not treat women badly. He loves women.
“And then the Lord blew the lid off of our pride. I won’t give the details, but a terrible incident of sexual abuse of a child occurred among us. At the same time we found ourselves being recruited by an abusive man as allies against his wife.”
The sad truth is it took a crisis and abuse situation for the pastor to see his error.
This shouldn’t have been, but it did.
The take-away here is if one see a church with like this was pre-abuse then run away, they are neither biblical nor following the heart of God.
Red flags all over the place.
Agreed, Liberal!
If there is a one-size-fits-all culture in a church, then it’s a controlling monster underneath the veneer. The only exception I can think of -and it would only be a mild exception- might be in a small town where many grew up the same way, with the same world views, same cultural norms, and naturally conforming outward behaviors. But in this media/tech age, one would be hard-pressed to find any group that out of touch with outside ideas these days.
Homeschooling can be a great option for some, but when it’s presented as the “godly” way that all should conform to in order to be in good stead with Jesus, then it becomes legalistic and bondage.
Keeping women “in their place” without a real voice, that’s just a no-brainer; it simply means you silence half of God’s image in whom we were made. NOT a wise move.
Pastor Jeff Crippen and his elders are to be commended for humbling themselves, seeking God’s perspective, and repenting by making things right … and continuing to figure out how God wants that done.
It is so sad in how this church used to not give any women a right to vote. Although this is terrible, when you compare this to Calvary Chapel where absolutely no one has a right to vote including both men and women, you begin to realize just how radically abusive Calvary Chapel can be.
Excellent point, Andrew!
Thank You, Linda ,for sharing your story and the insights that you have gained regarding the issue of domestic violence and how women are so often treated iso poorly n the church. I appreciate the discussion and encouragement of others regarding this serious issue found in the church today.
It is important for others in the Body of Christ to get the message and understand this issue better in order to take appropriate action in the future.
My website is: http://www.ChurchExiters.com
My research was among those who experienced spiritual abuse in their local church and how they recovered from this devastating experience. My book is: Spiritual Abuse Recovery.
Linda,
I wasn’t a believer at the time that I went thru abuse so I can’t say if I woulda gotten support. I do think if there is abuse in a physical way from either husband or wife then go to the police forget a Pastor. The Calvary I went to coddled the women and didn’t hold them accountable for their actions when it came to marriages or even sinful relationships, I emailed the pastor about that and of course he responded with pride and didn’t allow himself to be corrected. Trust me abuse of men by women is rampant in the church as well but men are usually more silent about it.
Linda,
I resepct that there are also churches that minimize women so I agree that they shouldn’t do that. All I know is that in our fellowship we honor each other male or female.
Linda,
I can say that the fellowship that I get from my sisters in the Lord is just as sweet and precious that I get from my brothers. Problem with organized religion is that they put men and women in a box.
Barb,
I went to your website and I have to respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions. I am open to correction and I don’t claim to understand everything, however You seem to make a correlation that not allowing women to be pastors in a church is really a type of abuse and discrimination. I find this liberal theology that turns any man that challenges your unique biblical understanding into an abuser. This is simple not the case. Maybe the men that challenge this egalitarian understanding of the office of pastor and elder are wrong but to assume they are abusers just because they are doing their best in biblical hermenuitics is another story all together. I don’t mean to get off track with abuse though since abuse is really not confined to a particular gender. I still don’t understand why there are more woman than men in the church if women are abused more often than men in church. Something doesn’t sound quite right.
Here’s the deal on the issue of Egalitarian vs. Complementarian and since I’m:
1. Male
2. The owner of the blog/leader
3. specially anointed by God, called, chosen etc for ministry
4. always right
…my take is the final say on the matter for this Group
That’s my critique of Complementarianism in a satirical manner.
There are scriptural arguments for and against the Complementarian vs Egalitarian postions
I default to Jesus. What did Jesus Model? Did He act and demonstrate more of a Complementarian approach in how He treated people and how He exercised leadership as the “head of the church” etc or more of an Egalitarian approach?
It sure appears Jesus took a more Egalitarian approach in how He dealt with people, women, those “underneath” His authority, etc etc. In fact, Jesus was only a Complementarian style jerk to the Pharisees/Hypocritical religious leaders and Money Changers of the day.
My personal take is that there is room to agree to disagree with the issue of women pastors or elders.
I’m more concerned with how “leaders” in Complementarian church constructs treat people and women and kids etc and how they teach the men (through word and example) how to treat women and kids etc.
If you have a conviction that women shouldn’t be pastors/elders, no problem (but you might want to take a whole lot of other stuff literally as well, like women covering their heads, guys not having long hair etc…lots of inconsistency in the more literalist positions, kind of pick and choose)…treat the women and children as the Servant of All, and as Jesus would…and don’t foster a chauvinist prick attitude and don’t give spiritual license for dudes to be abusive dicktators.
Liberals, please resist the urge to brand every conservative an abuser…though many are…I can vouch for that.
Alex – -Dude, you are.a.breath.of.fresh air!
@23 Solomon – Brother, I feel your pain. I was abused by my ex-wife for 3 years in every single way except physically.
It actually wasn’t her fault, she has severe mental issues that she hid from me until after we wed. I stayed with her through the abuse for 3 years and then God had enough. She filed for divorce against me, and even though I asked for separation & counseling which were denied, she said I couldn’t make her happy and finalized the divorce.
Throughout the divorce process I reminded her that the decision was rash and with utmost certainty was not God’s will for our marriage.
We went through mediation instead of a traditional court setting and I gave her our home, all the assets inside it, and took approximately 90% of our debt for myself. I left her enough debt that should could pawn her ring and cover. Both of us had jobs & made the same income.
After we finalized the financial arrangements she placed a restraining order on me and I haven’t heard from her since. Unfortunately, I think she believed I was coming in the black helicopters to get her.
Long story short. God’s will shall be done regardless of our own. I didn’t want to divorce and fought it for 3 years while enduring abuse…and eventually God had enough and separated us permanently.
Ladies (and gentlemen) if you have mental health issues do not hide them from your spouse. Let them know you are a damaged vessel prior to entering into marriage so they can decide up front if the marriage will work out.
God bless
Ditto @ 50!
Steve @ 51: I’m impressed with how you handled it. To go the extra mile like that under these circumstances indicate that you get it. This is where if we are asked for our cloak we give them our shirt too. If they ask us to walk a mile, we walk two.
I’m sorry for what you endured, but I suspect when we see things clearly in the new Heaven and new Earth, we will understand mental health issues from a whole new perspective that we do not have here and now. You were very merciful to your wife.
But you were still wronged. May God bless you and add back the years the locust worms have eaten. We know He will bless you for the persecution you endured from the enemy that used your wife.
Grateful @ 52
Thank you for the kind words. I hope to see her in heaven again. I pray for her daily and will for the rest of my life. I also pray that God holds not one iota of abuse against her.
There were certainly moments of sorrow during the divorce process, but God has healed those wounds and will use me to minister to others in this area. What satan meant for evil, God will use for good.
Alex, I really appreciate your perspective on this. I am pretty conservative but I hope I don’t fall into the chauvinist prick category. With this in mind, I think its important to recognize that Jesus was a man, not a women. The church is the bride of Christ. The marriage union is to reflect this mysterious relationship and the egalitarian approach doesn’t quite capture this most wonderful relationship. I agree us men need to model Jesus to our wives and children but the marriage union itself should model Christ and His church. This to me is pretty clear in the Bible.
Okay I have a question for everyone since were talking about abuse/control
Is it okay for a woman/man who is married to have a friend of the opposite sex?
Alex, thank you. Like you I am in total agreement. What more, when a person betrays and or abuses another, using the argument of complementarian or egalitatian constructs does not justify or even enters into the issues of these violation against another human being. Human decency, respect, and a choice to love others, rather than to try to control the mind, the heart, the soul of another is pure evil and only serves to feed one’s ego and hidden ungodly and unholy desires.
My question to everyone is what are you going to to make sure you educate yourself in order to enable the church and its leadership to be better equipped in recognizing and handling these things.
Andrew, these are the steps I have tried to take with my own husband, however marital counseling was not advised due to the issues that he knowingly brought into our marriage and me not having a clue. Not even a hint. So, he fooled me just as he is able to fool everyone else, but in his words “I am the one with mental health issues.” Quite frankly, I remain appalled at the general atttidue towards when and children when things are brouhgt to their attention. The arrogance of thinking they know and cannot be taught by a woman regarding areas of expertise that they have had no training whatsoever in is beyond my understanding. Particularly when I consult with others who do have this expertise and knows precisely what I have experienced and how it is so very obvious that I am telling the truth and nothing will change until my husband is held to an account and agrees the the terms I have stimpulated in order to know he will not harm or betray me ever again.
No, I am the one tried to stand beside to support in getting the treatment necessary to overcome the bondages that he is in and works hard to protect at the cost of destroying me and our marrage. I am the one who stands stedfast on my knees while speaking the truth. I am the one that was intentionally led into believing he is what his pastor and others believe him to be, but found out that that he suffers from seua addicton and NPD. I am the one who was betrayed and abused. I am the one that have given him so many opportunities to do what is right and honoring towards me, our marriage and the body of Christ as well as the large numbers of women he has been inappropriate with–not just one and not after we were married. I am the one who has possession of a 24 page confession to these facts written in his hand. I am the one who have not lifted a hand against him, our marriage or anyone else. I am the one who refuses to enable him to end this marriage by way of using these tactics to make it appear as though he had no other choice or that he has done nothing. I am the one like you, that was not given the information that I asked all the questions while dating and during our engagement to make an informed decision. He simply lied and has been lying ever since. He needs accountability and treatment. I am, nevertheless his wife and I love him dearly.
Linda,
I was married to her (first marriage). I was an unbeleiver so those questions regarding biblical divorce didn’t enter my mind. I know that I almost went back to her after moving back home from NYC. I had a dream where my god mother who had recently deceased back in 92 warned to not to go back or I would get hurt. After that dream I went from determined to go back to never having a desire to go back at all. I agree that someone who is physically abused should seek all resources to get out of it however I wouldn’t advise them to get divorced but would leave that up to their conscience and I wouldn’t judge them either. I would just be wary of passing out divorce cards for the typical stuff thhat goes on in a marriage
Julie, afterr writing what I did, I though someone might question that when I made reference to speaking pastors.
These pastors are not directly involved with this situation. They are pastors that I met while being homeless. The pastor who are involved that are outside of CC agree and believe me. But the CC pastors which are have behaved as though I don’t even exists. Which is rather ironic since I have been associated—not, “afflilated” with them since I came to the Lord in 1978.
If I had not reached out beyond CC, there is no doubt in my mind I would be dead today due to starvation, being exposed to the elements, and hindered from pursuing financial resources to keep me alive and afloat. There are no benefits for people like myself who is not an addict, nor have children.
Like you shared, these things have and are being used by the Lord. And like Alex, I am taking this opportunity to speak out while getting the support hat helps me to help others as well as myself.
Sorry in #56, I meant it for Steve and Solomon, rather for you Andrew.
See my wife has a much stronger personality than me but she still yields to me as the head of the home. She doesn’t have to and she does struggle with submission but she dies to herself. My wife naturally speaks and acts with more authority than me but she also realizes that god has has given me wisdom as the head so that I can make quality decisions for our family.
To answer your question Linda, I start with the women in my life by loving them be they daughters, grandmothers, aunts, mother, wife etc. Treating all women with respect but not just women people period. Treating the sisters in christ as exactly that sisters not as objects to get with. I would caution any women from being under oprresive pastoral authority. I say to them run run run and do not try to change the system. In our home fellowship an abuser would not feel or b welcomed. We would go matthew 18 on him. If a woman in our midst is being physically abused we give her shelter and do what ever we can for her. I would advise a woman to call the cops on her husband. Yes we need to teach servant modeled leadership not the authoritarin type nonetheless submission is biblical.
I say the good pastors are teachable in these matters but they are few and far between because even the ones that appear good will pick and choose what abusive men they will confront. If its a man that has a big income and tithes don’t b suprised if the pastor looks the other way and blames the victim
Linda,
Are u and your husband legally divorced?
Question to Solomon.
I did not ask for the information you gave so I am assuming you are offering to establish your argument for a complentarian role. Which is not the purpose of the Letter that was posted.
Nevertheless, how can you possibly make a decision on the behalf of your wife without her participation in the decision making processes. How can you possibly make a decisin regarding your own palns pertaining to you as an individual without consulting her and gaining a clear understanding how it may or may not impact her as person who also has the Holy Spirit within her?
Finally, would you agree that it would be far more productive for a husband to focus more upon loving his wife ( one way is to respect her thoughts, feelings, and opinions) than it is to focus upon being in control of her?
Linda,
I never said that I don’t consider her opinions/veiwpoints when making a decision but if she wants to do something that will negatively impact our family then I will put my foot down. If my wife wants to make purchases on credit I will be against that because I believe what the bible says about being a good steward of finances. If my wife elects not to go to fellowship one day that does not mean that I stop going unless of course its because she is sick and I need to take care of her. If my wife wants to cut me offf from friendships/family I will not allow that type of control. If my wife wants to make unwise purchases I will put my foot down. God has given me wisdom in certain areas as he has her.
Solomon,
No we are neither legally divorce nor are we legally separated. The judge denied his petititon to divorce me because he refuse to disclose his finance then try to get a waiver in the requirement by saying he had “been trying to get help for me for a long time as I has serious mental health issues” Typical for a Narcissist, as they will project.
In the meantime, he has threatened and suggested a number of ways I might die.
Three months after this hearing, which I did not attend—he then told me and a couple of other people we both know that he did not finalize the divorce because, “it would be, being disobedient to the Lord.” Did not even mention what I just shared. At the same time he told me he would dismiss all court proceedings. Four days later, he showed me 4 bullets while telling me he did not have a gun. All the while I’m constantly finding this girl that I believe he has fathered a child with either driving his car or him driving her car or him packing them up or so many other things—-yet he denies and tells others I am deluional. And his pastor believes him.
So, biblically and legally speaking, we are married and as far I am concern that is not going changed, because I being the Godly woman that I am will not ever give him a biblical ground to do so. So, his only other options are to either repent or for me to die. That is why I remain in hiding as I do.
#9
the key, Solomon is: “a pattern of coercive control” which can be better understood by reading the material, rather than to debate it here on this site. It goes far deeper than you can possibly imagine or to identify by mentioning this act or that behavior — it ia pattern that using all kinds of manipulative tactics to control the victim while hiding the abuse.
a pattern of coercive control
it is a pattern that uses all kinds of manipulative tactics to control the victim while hiding the abuse.
It comes in the form of spiritual, mental, emotional, financial, sexual, physical, and social abuse, but is not exclusive of these area either. It is destructive and its primary goal is to secure power and control over anothr —- to own their very soul
I tis not uncommon for an abuser to be very concern and helpful towards other while being abusive and controlling towards his wife and children. As a matter of fact, you can count this being part of the picture.
Hmm, let me ask you this question, Solomon.
Is humbling yourself to choose to “love” your wife not an act of submission as well.
And wouldn’t that then place you in a servant-leadershop role instead?
And to love another would recognize that they are able to participate in the decision making process involving their welfare and well being?
Once other comment that somebody made, I don’t remember who. They were trying to make a point of saing that since Jesus was a man, then a husband was to be like Him, as He is the church.
Ummmhrrgh!! The bride of the church is both female and males. What more, we are all to follow His example in the way we relate to each other. As for “submit” we are to submit one to another and we are to never, force that on to another. Otherwise, it is not submission, but rather subjugation. Submit as unto the Lord, meaning the Lord would never ever ask us to do something wrong, nor would He try to do or thinking for us, or tell us how we ought to or ought not to feel. But rather, He is compassionate, supportive, and ever so nurturing, and loving and kind in enabling to exercise all that is within to become what God wants us to be. Not what you what your wife to be to support you and the grandiose image a husband may have about himself. That is called tyranny and is oppressive and ever so ungodly.
#65 and if you were to do the same things that you would put your foot down, then would it also be appropriate to put her foot down as well?
Alex, ooooh my, I cannot stop laughing, but how true. SO THERE!!!
Barb, thanks for a moment I was wondering if anyone had read the Pastor’s letter. Because, in a large way, this is the smoke that an abuse person has to wade throught to get to the crux of the problem. Abuse and adultery and sexual immorality, and lying and cheating and perpetrating power and control upon anyone is wrong. And like Pastor Jeff has told us—–wake up people, stop blowing smoke and do something about this—like the homeworkd he gave us, for a start. Please for the sake of so many—–pull up your sleeves and for once do something other than maintaining the status quo and clinging to that which has been used to enable the abuser and revictimize the victim.
Take part of your tithe and buy a copy for your pastor and for yourself. Heck, get your church to buy a copy for your entire congregation. At least then you would be better prepared to reduce the leaven in your church and protect those who you say should submit and when. For all you may know, you could be an abuser and you could be, being abused and not even know it because someone told you they had a right to treat you accordingly. But deep in your heart you knew the truth but no one, including your pastor would tell you that it was wrong, that is was unholy, and that they would help you to stop it. I’m done—–for now. Again, thank you for visiting this site and I hope you would focus more on Pastor Jeff’s letter and pass it on to others as well.
Question asked: “Is it okay for a woman/man who is married to have a friend of the opposite sex?”
Only if this person is a friend to the marriage and to the other spouse as well.
At no time, should one spouse speak to this type of friend about their troubles with their spouse, unless their spouse agrees and only in certain context.
For instance a sister in the church can be single or divorce or even married. All parties must recognize the marriage and all parties must agree on the paramenters.
Another example is having to do lunch with your opposite sex boss. I would not advise it. More affairs are started in the workplace than any other environment. Other places are in church and at coffee shops, statistically speaking. Then online. Hoever, when the spouse hides nothing from the other spouse then the risk is greatly reduced. If you have a number and/or address of someone of the opposite sex, then your spouse should have it as well. If you have a password on you electronic devices, your spouse should have it as well. It’s really difficult to violate your marriage when you hold yourself accountable to your spouse. Even if they seem to be a bit insecure, the best way to diffuse that is to open your life and your heart up as much as you would want them to do with and for you. Not to be used as a weapon, or to be used as a way to control, but to increase their ability to trust and to be able depend upon you.
Otherwise, speaking to an impartial objective party of the opposite sex that is trained to counsel would be appropriate, but only if she or he also agreed to speak individually to the other spouse as well to enable them to fully informed as much as possible, meaning base on truthful statements and not out of manipulation or rewriting history to avoid accountability.
Linda,
The problem with controlling is defining it. Am I controlling because I tighten the purse strings so as to avoid debt? Wouldn’t a woman want her husband to do that rather than letting her run amuck with the finances because she has to have the latest shoes? If my wife and I have a different opinion on the fellowship we attend, then who follows who? Isn’t the woman the helpmate and then one to come alongside and help?
It all boils down to how you love your wife without robbing her of her self respect and dignity, as an individual, a woman, and a sister in the Lord. That is not for you to decide without gainin an understanding from her.
Don’t treat her like you know better what is the best thing for her. How would like to be treated. Treat her with as much respect and dignity and honor as yourself. Didn’t Paul tell the husbands to love their wives as much as they love thier own body. So why would you want to extricate you wife from her own sense of a “self” in order to accommodate what you from your point of view may be comfortable with but have totally miss the mark in protecting, supporting, encouraging, loving, and nurturing the things that you wife needs to have from you in order to feel as though she counts serving your agenda that could not possibly have anything to do with her. Oh, you might share similar likes and dislikes and preferences, and needs, and desire, but unlees you are willing to include her in and factor all that she has to share with you, then your marriage is only about the “me” and not the “us.”
“Wouldn’t a woman want her husband to do that rather than letting her run amuck with the finances because she has to have the latest shoes?”
1) Do not make the mistake of thinking all woman are alike.
2) Ask your wife to be part of this decision.
3) What type of expenditures do you justify for yoursef?
4) The budget should be worked out by both spouses.
5) No spouses wants a mother or a father for their husband or wife.
7) What was the latest gadget you bought for yourself.
8) Do you have a budeget that includes an allowance for each of you? To be use on whatever you see fit as long as it does not violate the sanctity of the marriage.
Clarification: “on whatever “you” see fit . . . . .meaning the person using their own allowance.
Linda,
The problem is not buying shoes or something that she wants the problem is when it is done on credit. I am against using credit cards other than for car rentals hotels etc because having one is required in those instances. If a woman is like the proverbs 31 woman a husband will have no worries but if she is in love with the things of this world then the husband has a lot to worry about.
Consider this:
Many time a person will overspend in order to soothe themselves and or to assert their independence due to feeling controlled or not loved.
The issue of the heart is as transparent as how a husband treats his wife. If you want to know what kind of man he is, look into the eyes of his wife. For no man can say that he loves his wife and then cheat and lie to her or treat her as less than himself, not giving due consideration to what she determines she is about. It is not about laying down the law to assert one’s authority, but it is about living with her in love and understanding, to encourage and to build her up as a viable partner in a life that is to be built together. If both people thought exactly alike, then one of them is not necessary. And the other is just an obejct to serve the other misguided notions.. Godly love is dying to yourself, picking up the cross and walk in obedience, always, but always loving her as Christ has given himself to his own bride, the church.
So instead of demoting her, promote her and watch her take wings to become the Proberbs 31 woman.
Linda,
First, I would like to put some perspective on some of the things I wrote. Some may call me a liberal at this point. For one, I appreciate very much the women in my life. More so then the men. I have spent a lot of time in counseling and I have to say that the women counselors I have had, were much better and more helpful to me than the men. The men were typically arrogant to say the least from my perspective. Not meaning to say all men counselors are bad but from my experience women have been much better. Some may say that a man should never counsel with a woman but I have to disagree. Just as I have no problem going to a women doctor, I have no problem going to a women counselor. However, I received this counseling when I was single and now that I am married I think it may be a different story if I were to go to counseling again. I kind of agree with Solomon that I don’t want any outside interference with my marriage. This is something I actually learned from my wife and it wasn’t my idea. Women have a lot to offer and I never want to diminish this. My only concern lies with what appears to be a prohibition for women to be elder/pastors in the church. With that said, I think women can hold every single possible position in the world from president to CEO to judge to just about anything else but there does seem to be a restriction in the Bible for the office of elder/pastor. This is all I am saying. I know some will disagree with me and that is fine but please try to hold your anger to not lash out against me and label me an abuser. Now, for the topic of submission. I would never ask my wife or another women to submit to me. NEVER! My job is to love my wife period. It’s not my job to tell her what to do. I also submit to my wife because we are called to submit to one another. Now for the topic of divorce. I am concerned when I see more divorce inside the church than outside. Maybe some of it has to do with the oppressive nature of women in the church but maybe it also has to do with elders/pastors getting involved in domestic disputes they should not be involved in in the first place and putting a wedge in between a husband and a wife. I don’t think it’s real simple to discern but I do think we need a lot of grace for those going through divorce. For clear cut cases of adultery it’s a no brainer but for more of the subjective things that Solomon has been mentioning, I think it may be wise for the church leadership to not take sides. Just my two cents.
Please check out this reading material, good stuff. Your Pastors and feminists will not like this
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/InEverything.html
Andrew sadi:
“I am concerned when I see more divorce inside the church than outside. Maybe some of it has to do with the oppressive nature of women in the church but maybe it also has to do with elders/pastors getting involved in domestic disputes they should not be involved in in the first place and putting a wedge in between a husband and a wife. I don’t think it’s real simple to discern but I do think we need a lot of grace for those going through divorce. For clear cut cases of adultery it’s a no brainer but for more of the subjective things that Solomon has been mentioning, I think it may be wise for the church leadership to not take sides. Just my two cents.”
This^^
This comment you made Andrew goes to the link I posted earlier about pastors/elders sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong.
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/AWordtotheWives.html
My experience with christian women (and I have no doubts not all are this way) is you are dealing with a spiritual double standard in regards to men.
They sit in church and ask “where all the cowboys have gone?” Then when they meet a cowboy, the feminist side kicks in and pushes back against their leadership.
Now let me be very clear, I am not speaking about ‘abuse’…I am speaking only in firm leadership done out of love.
When I told my ex-wife “You cannot buy that purse, just as I cannot buy this latest movie, because we do not have the money to do so.” That is leadership done out of love, to want to preserve the finances of the family unit.
Did I tell her what to do? Absolutely. Because I wanted the best for my family and financial solvency is part of that ‘best’. But, I also sacrificed as well, I would not be a double standard and buy myself something when the money wasn’t there.
In fact, about 90% of the time I went without, and allowed her to buy what she wanted, in hopes that would make her feel special & loved. I still have shoes with holes in them to prove it
Eventually, my “no’s” due to lack of finances ignited her pride. “I can do what I want, you can’t stop me from buying things I need” became the prevailing argument.
No amount of budgeting can fix pride. It has been 3 years since the marriage ended, and I am down to $8,000 left in credit card debt (from $47,000). So should a woman always have a say in budgeting & purchases? No, no not at all.
If she refuses to sacrifice & lead on her own merit, take her cards away and get her a seperate checking with an allowance. Do not repeat my mistake men, where you give your wife free reign with finances (if she is unwilling to budget and file the credit cards), it will destroy you.
To all Pastors/Elders,
I as the Husband am the head of my home not you or your clones with your CEO like salaries and 401 k benefits and endxless perks and travel expenses that are billed to the church. See I work for a living and I bear my families burdens not you. So a word from me to you, stay out of my affairs unless I allow you that privilege. I don’t plunder the sheep for my living but I work my butt of day in and day out
Steve said:
“My experience with christian women (and I have no doubts not all are this way) is you are dealing with a spiritual double standard in regards to men.
They sit in church and ask “where all the cowboys have gone?” Then when they meet a cowboy, the feminist side kicks in and pushes back against their leadership.
Now let me be very clear, I am not speaking about ‘abuse’…I am speaking only in firm leadership done out of love.
When I told my ex-wife “You cannot buy that purse, just as I cannot buy this latest movie, because we do not have the money to do so.” That is leadership done out of love, to want to preserve the finances of the family unit.
Did I tell her what to do? Absolutely. Because I wanted the best for my family and financial solvency is part of that ‘best’. But, I also sacrificed as well, I would not be a double standard and buy myself something when the money wasn’t there.
In fact, about 90% of the time I went without, and allowed her to buy what she wanted, in hopes that would make her feel special & loved. I still have shoes with holes in them to prove it
Eventually, my “no’s” due to lack of finances ignited her pride. “I can do what I want, you can’t stop me from buying things I need” became the prevailing argument.
No amount of budgeting can fix pride. It has been 3 years since the marriage ended, and I am down to $8,000 left in credit card debt (from $47,000). So should a woman always have a say in budgeting & purchases? No, no not at all.
If she refuses to sacrifice & lead on her own merit, take her cards away and get her a seperate checking with an allowance. Do not repeat my mistake men, where you give your wife free reign with finances (if she is unwilling to budget and file the credit cards), it will destroy you.”
Amen Steve, either people get it or they don’t, I ended up in debt also just to make my ex wife feel special and loved via material purchases.
Solomon @ 85 – It is indeed a problem. And it is not even all the woman’s fault. Society puts TREMENDOUS pressure on women to be Martha Stewarts with the perfect kitchen, upgraded homes, good bodies, etc. So much pressure to buy, buy, buy or you are a “poor wife”. I am so deeply angered about the pressure society puts on women.
Unfortunately, at the end of the day, after all the pressure has come and gone, each of us still has to make 1 of 2 choices 1) can’t afford but buy anyway, or 2) don’t buy.
With my ex, choice #1 was taken most of the time. Marketing won, pride flourished, & it resulted in the obliteration of the marriage. Satan 1 – God 0.
“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything” (Eph. 5:22,24).
Linda: So help me understand – you are living by hiding because of your abusive husband who has cheated on you, yet you do not want to get a divorce?
I have been reading and re-reading your posts and in fact copying them so that I don’t lose them because you have such insight. I’m actually blown away by your wisdom. I am glad that you are speaking out here.
Steve,
I agree with you that society feeds us the great lie that is called “The American Dream” and I even have a female friend who’s own ex husband fell in love with the world and the things of this world so he put her in debt
Solomon @ 87 – That verse is hard to swallow in today’s society that blurs gender lines & the roles God would have each gender take. In fact, if God did not want each sex to take roles, He would have created us equal in all ways.
But in fact, He made us separate, each with our own unique strengths. So that when the two become one they are strong & complete (Well, that is the idea anyway, but oftentimes two do not desire to become one which ends in divorce).
I believe all choices should be made as a couple and the husband should only exercise “having the final say” when two criteria are met:
1) There is a stalemate on a decision that [u]must[/u] be made
2) The husband’s decision is in line with the Word of God (not to say the wife’s isn’t, but that his “leadership” decision will not harm the family)
If a wife does not agree with the above then she should not be in a christian marriage. This isn’t to say she shouldn’t marry…just that she should not marry a man who seeks to follow the will of God in all things.
On a 2-person panel, you will always have a stalemate (mathmatically there is no other outcome). God says the husband should break the stalemate, but this should ONLY be done if his decision is biblical & for the bettering of the family.
“Dear friends, in authoritarian, abusive, local institutional religious systems, the “leaders” reveal their true colors over and over again when it comes to human relationships within the family, especially those of a husband and wife. The scriptures are trampled upon over and over again by these religious strongmen and nobody bats an eye!”
“You are dealing with poisonous snakes, no different from the one in the Garden of Eden who put a wedge between Eve and her husband Adam.”
excerpt from site wickedshepherds.com
Steve, given you wifes irresponsible behavior, it was critical for you to the set the boundaries that you did.
My question is: if a husband’s spending habits also emulated what you described your wife’s to be, then wouldn’t it be appropriate for her to also set these boundaries on him?
Linda,
In my situation I am the spender and my wife is the frugal one. My wife has put boundaries on me where at times I feel I can not even spend a dime. I resisted it for awhile, but now I realize she is turning me into a wealthy man. All I can do is be thankful. No need for budget either when you only spend on what you absolutely need. My advice to everyone though is to be flexible. Everybody is a bit different when it comes to money.
Abuse is not ambiguous. It is clear pattern of behavior that oppresses and denies a person the ability to thrive and healthy relationship.
Solomon, I keep reading your comments and what comes to mind is the importance of reigning over your wife without interference from outside sources, particularly that coming from church leadership. That comes across as being very scary to me.
Who are you accountable when you are out of line? Where can your wife go when “she” feels (not you determing how she feels) that she needs to get a Godly person who has insight and expertise in such matters? Please don’t tell us that the men you fellowship with are available because its my hunch that given your strong one minded personality, either they think the same way that you do or they are reluctant to step in knowing already the fruitlessness of doing this.
People, please reread Pastor Jeff’s letter and follow his lead. Abuse and betrayal is not what is being discounted by Solomon. He may have been abused by another relationship that he was in.. But I don’t think he really understand how this may have something to do with the beliefs that he now holds towards what in my opinion is estreme and terribly myopic in his ability to speak in terms of anything other a very dominating position he takes with his wife. So much so, he uses this as an excuse not to be part of a church.
I say this, Solomon because your wife went to the Pastor to get help for something that you were doing. You didn’t mentioned what that was but did say that the Pastor when coming to your home and speaking with you, he ask your wife if she wanted to separate from you. So, in my mind, it must have been something that convince the Pastor that your wife needed to protect herself by separating in order for your marriage to survive. By leaving the church, you took the position that no one should interfere with you being the “leader” and “head” of your household, yet at the same time, constantly you have spoken as though your wife is under your thumb and that if anyone has anything to say that may be concerned, such as this pastor obviously was as a result of your wife reaching out the pastor (which by the way was your wife’s pastor, as well) then they are coming between you and your wife.
Have you given any consideration that it was the pastor that attempted to help your wife give you a clue how serious the situation was to the point of possibly separating (not divorcing, but separating)? So, what I hear is you fixed that by extricating and then bad mouthing the Pastor and in general churches at large because they were holding you to an account?
People, please read the book and materials that Pastor Jeff has recommended. Abuse of children and woman is not that confusing. An abuser will rationalize their behavior and back it up with seemingly logical explanations.
The truth is they do what they do because they believe they are entitled to treat the wife and children the way they do and get very upset when being held to an account. They have great difficulty understanding that they have no right to control, to oppress, to violate others in the way that they do. This is why it is so critical to educate yourself in equipping the pastoral leadership to be able to intervene regardless of what the abuser would like them to believe.
Solomon, your article is so out there. It may make sense to you, but what you have described is a rationale that falls along the line of a very controlling and dominating husband. When you speak to us about your behavior towards your wife and other women, initially it sounds as though, you are balanced. But as I reread and listen more to what you persist in campaigning for, it comes across as being more interested in establishing absolute control over your wife. Tell me what would happen if she put her foot down on you? Because, I believe that is what she attempted to do when she reached out to her pastor who was your pastor as well.
Oh, by the way, if you are in the church and a believer then it is most fitting that the leadership becomes involved in matters that are reported to be abusive towards another human being. Even if it involves one’s spouse. To not to be able to do this is only another form of abuse. An abuse person has the right to break the silence in order to protect themselves and to stop the abuse.
Again, please reread Pastor Jeff’s letter and follow his counsel. For the sake of us all.
Linda @ 93 – It absolutely would. The entire point of being “a family”, is the preservation of “the family”. If the husband was abusing finances at the expense of his family he should be confronted on it by the family (Notice how I keep saying family? Keep it in the family, that is key to preserving the marriage).
Should he have his cards taken away and be given an allowance if he cannot control his spending? Absolutely. Financial carlessness isn’t suffered by one gender.
If the man or woman has a problem, they need to be removed from that problem. If their temptation is to overspend, then it is probably best for them to not have the opportunity to overspend (live on a cash allowance for awhile).
It will cause issues, it is a HUGE blow to pride. But sometimes being humbled is the best thing that can ever happen to us.
Linda @ 95 – I will let Solomon respond to you, but I do not think he is taking the position that his wife should not seek counsel. I believe the position he is taking is that his wife should not entertain ungodly counsel.
For ANY pastor to encourage ‘separation’ before ‘reconciliation’ is an extremely ungodly counsel to give. God NEVER wants our relationships with our spouses to end. After all, we made a promise to Him directly in our vows.
Obviously we do not know the whole history, and only have one side of the story. But I have seen so many abusive pastors in my lifetime that I would bank on Solomon’s explanation being true.
I have heard horror stories of pastors counseling spouses to separate from each other, simply because the other spouse no longer wants to attend a particular church. You realize why they encourage the separation correct? To get at least one tither back in the pews.
As for myself, I would never encourage marriage counseling through a church. Far too much bias in those listening to keep the tithe coming in. Always use a certified marriage counselor who is neutral to both parties.
Linda,
Who are you to submit to first, you’re Husband or Pastor?
Btw, the Church is not a building or denomination or Organization but it is the “called out ones” which I am a part of so I never left the true Church.
Also if I confused you I apologize, the articles I posted were not written by me or about me but is a website that has been a blessing to me as it exposes the wicked shepherds that proliferate the American Institutional Church System.
I did say a couple times that if a woman/man are being physically abused to report it to the police right away and of course your fellowship will need to know as well in case the abuser tries to go there to inflict harm.
Andrew,
Please refer back to my comment #59: I corrected saying that the prior comment was not being addressed to you but rather to Soloman and Steve
Your comment in #80 IMO, Andrew, I thought be balanced and well stated. That is until it came to very last point you made:
“Maybe some of it has to do with the oppressive nature of women in the church but maybe it also has to do with elders/pastors getting involved in domestic disputes they should not be involved in in the first place and putting a wedge in between a husband and a wife. I don’t think it’s real simple to discern but I do think we need a lot of grace for those going through divorce. For clear cut cases of adultery it’s a no brainer but for more of the subjective things that Solomon has been mentioning, I think it may be wise for the church leadership to not take sides. Just my two cents.”
I say this, because if their is a wedge between husband and wife, it did not originate when the leadership became involved. It was due to the wedge that was already there, then brought to their attention.
Secondly, I too think that people are far to quick to end the marriage, even if they have Biblical grounds. Not to say, that if this is so, that the person who does have legal grounds should not seek divorce for only they know if the offender the violator of the marital vows better than any other and if the hard-heartedness (meaning the likelihood of that person repenting and going the length to prove to his or her spouse beyond mere words and a few weeks of good behavior) is able to be broken down. At the same time, the offended spouse must consider their mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual well being in making such a decision.
God hates divorce. In my situation, although I do have biblical grounds as I’ve stated, I am not convinced that a divorce is what God desires for my husband and me. My husband is doing a lot of game playing, using smokescreens, and other tactics to try to get me to leave our marriage rather than to be honest about the rampant unfaithfulness and abuse that has been perpetrated in order to save his reputation or rather the false image he’s created in the minds of others. For me, it is spiritual warfare and it has to do with trusting and speaking the truth in order to hold him to an account to save our marriage and perhaps his very soul. It’s not easy as you may have already grasp by what I have shared. It really sucks at times, and it is the road less traveled, as some have pointed that divorce is so common in the body of Christ.
I have spoken to many pastors: over 20 from various churches—including 2 CC Pastor friends I have. By and large, they go over sccripture with me to let me know what constitutes Biblical grounds for a divorce. Their primary concern is for my safety and ability to walk free without having to take extra precautions to keep myself safe while fighting for my marriage. The pastor directly involved with my husband totally writes this off and refuses to meet with me. CC regional has yet to respond to my requests. I have given the book written by Bancroft along with evidence, and other materials on my husbands’ diagnoses to assist them in understanding and holding him to an account while insuring my safety and daiy survival needs. So far, it has fallen upon deaf ears. But in understanding more of the mindset of CC overall, I am not surprise and it leaves me even more broken hearted and concern when I am told by my husband he plans to become a CC Pastor.
My whole point in all this Andrew pertaining to what I quoted from your comment is this: I do not believe that committing adultery is a no brainer. And added to this, there are many ways of committing adultery. You do not have to be horizontal with someone, other than your sposue, to be unfaithful to the marital vows. But is divorce an automatic? How many people have committed adultery in the church and did everything under the sun to get their spouse to initiate the divorce while bad mouthing her and making it look as though she was at fault, but then soon after quicky married someone else. And the church accepted this? In CC, they even permit adulterers to become or go on in the Pastoral position. This even happens in the case of abuse towards women and their children. And this ought not to be.
It is not due to “interference” by the pastoral leadership that is causing divorces. Not by a long shot. It is due to a lack of education and intentional reluctance to become involved in providing accountability and church discipline for these types of issues that separate families and destroys marriages, but enables further abuse and betrayal to take place. As one foolish pastor stated to me: you have biblical grounds, you are still a good looking woman. I’m sure there is a brother who would treat much better than your husbands has done.
My answer to this: I am not a piece of meat to be traded off to another brother in the church, simply because the church has failed to hold him to an account and help him to get the intervention that is available, and that would enable him to repent and to love me as Christ has loved the church. This is an easy out for the church and my husband, but God hates divorce, and he is not so willing to see this as a solution when He has told all of us that the answer is for my husband and the church to: Repent and bear the fruit of that repentance visible where this wife who loves her husband and is faithful to him and to the Lord, to be safe , to be able to trust , and to know her husband will be faithful and no longer abusive. It is a double betrayal when the church fails to do this, but rather caters to a spouses sin by refusing to educate themselves in order understand what constitutes abuse and to be clear on the options available to help this marriage to heal without blaming the victim who has been betrayed and abused.
Finally, Andrew, please know that the things that constitutes abuse and betrayal are not as ambiguous as you think. It is not a “domestic dispute” that Pastor Jeff, me, Alex, and those who are so familiar with these issues. Has nothing to do with it being a “domestic dispute” and that is what many abusers would like you to believe. For they will minimize, discount and even deny or put a different spin on things. But when a pastor, a counselor, and any other expert that has been trained in these areas, they too will tell you, that it is not about a “differences in an opinion” or a “squabble” such as some would like to believe.
So please Andrew, follow the direction of Pastor Jeff and see for yourself. We need the church to be involved with the flock. We need the protection and the support of church leadership and the body of Christ to keep us safe and to hold those to an account that would put more emphasis on power and control than loving others and treating all, including women and children by lording their authority over us and treating us so dispictably. Abuse is as clear as unfaithfulness, and the pattern of cohersive and oppressive behavior is readily identifiable. You are not going to learn what you need to know on this site. But hopefully, you will take a more active stance in what Pastor Jeff has offered and do what you can to make a change in your church to better equip you to stop the abuse and the rampant leaven that being perpetrated upon those men say they have authority over, in particular.
Andrew, up until you made the comment stated in the quote, I pretty much rode along with you. Domestic violence is not a pretty thing. What more please know that emotional and psychological abuse is said to be far more damaging that physical abuse. It is just easier to prosecute someone if it is physical and this is part of the reason that it is difficult for people to believe that abuse is taking place. But when you know what it is and what it is not, believe me, it gets a lot harder for the abuser to continue in their way.
The greatest weapon that an abuser uses is the ability to keep their victims silent and to discredit them by their ability to pathologically lie while giving an godly appearance to others. That is, unless like Pastor Jeff who did the homework then was able to see through thise smokescreen and mirrors that the abuser will use.
Many of todays Pastors out of cowardice have went to the other extreme of always taking the wifes side in marital disputes. Again other than physical abuse the conflicts in a marriage need to be resolved by the spouses and at times like Steve said an unbiased marriage counselor outside the Church system that has nothing to gain and that would be if there were serious issues, not just my wife doesnt cook for me or my husband doesn’t let me buy expensive clothes.
“you have biblical grounds, you are still a good looking woman. I’m sure there is a brother who would treat much better than your husbands has done.”
What is wrong with what he said? If you have biblical grounds for Divorce and reading from the stuff your husband has put you through that may be the best thing that someone has told you.
Again a wife is to come alongside her Husband and be his helpmate not be the Pastors helpmate. Pastors/Elders have no business in the affairs of Man’s marriage unless he gives them permission. Again Physical abuse should be reported right away. A Husband is to protect his wife even from wicked wolves in sheeps clothing who call themsleves Pastors and seek to weave their influence in the marriage. If the Husband decides to fellowship elsewhere and leave a church that he believes is teaching false then the wife needs to submit and follow him just as Sarah did to Abraham. Again it’s the wife that follows the Husbands lead in where to fellowship not the other way around.
Steve
‘For ANY pastor to encourage ‘separation’ before ‘reconciliation’ is an extremely ungodly counsel to give. God NEVER wants our relationships with our spouses to end. After all, we made a promise to Him directly in our vows.
When I am speaking of “separation” it is for 2 purposes, but never for divorce.
1) to protect a spouse from further harm
2) to enable the offending spouse to hopefully after his refusal to repent to repent as a result of treatment and other steps taken to enable the offended spouse to know that the abuse and or betrayal is no gong to be perpetrated.
Soloman, first and foremost I submit to the the Word of God, not just one scripture, but the entire counsel of God when considering what my Pastor,, my husband, or anyone else may be saying to me. I do not obey anyone out of blind obedience. But I do search the scriptures diligently and pray while seeking Godly counsel before making a decision, in particular concerning the more difficult things that arise between the church or within my marriage.
That is the plumbline which I abide in. Neither my husband or Pastor is God, so I weigh everything out according to His Word and submit accordingly.
Which means that just because you may be my husband, if you are not in line with God’s Word which I diligentlys study and trust in the guiding of the Holy Spirit to direct me, then guess what——–no, you will not supercede what I deem to be wrong. For it is me that will have to stand before the Lord to give an account of what I did or did not do with the things God gave to me. Just as you will. As Scripture states: we are “each” to work out our “own” salvation with fear and trembling. So, I am not responsible for your sins, unless I agree to enable, cosgin, or complromise what I know to be wrong and not beneficial to our marriage, our children, and the community that I live and or worship within. What more, if I do not hold you to an account then ignoring this Scripture tells us that your sins will be counted as if I committed them myself.
To submit soley upon the premise that you are the head of the wife, then you are in grave danger of perpetuating a terribe wrong against her. Particularly when God says he hates these type of behaviors. And Paul tells the churches to address them, immediately and not to draw back from doing so and not to participate in them, but to expose them. -So when the church leadership and husbands seek to exercise a style of leadership that ignores these type of issues that does silence those who are in fact being victimized by the very nature of such leadership and then perpetuated by husbands, then yeah, you are going become blinded and unable to discern or even to be teachable to enable you to right the offenses that has been done against the very ones that you claim you are to have authority over.
Solomon,
“Again other than physical abuse the conflicts in a marriage need to be resolved by the spouses and at times like Steve said an unbiased marriage counselor outside the Church system that has nothing to gain and that would be if there were serious issues, not just my wife doesnt cook for me or my husband doesn’t let me buy expensive clothes.
You are ignorrant on what constitutes abuse. What more, when abuse is taking place the worse thing you can do is asked the abused partner to particpate in marital counseling. It is another form of abuse. For it is intimating that if the partner wouldn’t do things to “make” the abuser, abuse them, then they wouldn’t be abused.
Steve, this is not about marital counseling and that is a huge reason why abuse continues to be perpetuated and divorces are inititiated. It’s like my husband saying to me that if you would just go into marital counseling with me, then I wouldn’t abuse you any more. In the clinical world this used to be the direction that was taken but now we know that this is very destructive and can cause irreparable harm to the victim. As for the church involvement they can be key player in holding the abuser to an account while supporting the victim and sending a clear message that this will not be tolerated. In the meantime, the offender can get treatment and bear the fruits of repentence, not on his terms for he does like power and control but on the terms of the person that was violated.
I feel as though I am spinning my wheels with you Solomon while you campaign for your postion of emmient domain over your marrige. I do not agree with your rationales even though the way that you decribed your behaviors to be towards your wife and other women.
The fact is you are not involved with a church. The fact is Pastor Jeff’s letter addresses other Pastor on the issue of abuse towards women and children. The fact is you have consistently taken the focus off this letter to what, proclaim your right to rule over hour wife and household? This in turn is not addressing the concerns that Pastor Jeff outlined in his letter, as well as, the concern that Alex, others, and I have regarding our own abusive situations that we would like to see address and no longer pertrated or enabled with in a church that have Pastors.
So, with that in mind, I no longer want to discourse with you on your own agendas. It only distracts and muddle the issues at hand. That being what Pastor Jeff letter has brought to the attention of Pastors.
I am still concerned about what prompted your wife to go to both of your pastor to seek help in addressing an issue with you. That is, a huge red flag for me. For a Pastor does not usually suggest separation unless he is concerned towards the safety and welfare of a woman. You said that the pastor has an issue with you not going along with something that he was teaching. My guess it had something to do with the way you were justifying your behavior towards your wife. You say, she has a stronger personality than you——I wonder. Or is that just what you perceived her to have, for why would she go to the Pastor seekin his help, if that was so.
As Paul stated in the Scripture when one part of the body is hurting, the whole body hurts. And when their is ungocly behavior being perpetrated upon another , that needs to be addressed. Not ignored or left for the abuser misusing his “perceived” authority to silent the victim and continue in these offenses.
Linda,
I have been refraining from posting because of our last “encounter”.
I have read everything you have written and as a woman, much of what you write about I agree with.
I was just wondering 2 things:
1. Since you are a psychologist, or counselor (pardon my not remembering), why are you in hiding and why are you not working, so to make a living for yourself? I know you have said you are homeless. Do you have a restraining order? Does your husband threaten you now?
2. Do you think that “treatment” and other steps” as you described will cause repentence from your husband apart form an act of his own will and the workings of he Lord?
I do appreciate what you have written in this thread. I do believe that the CC’s I have attended get really hung up on the “submission” verses for women.
PS Linda,
An interesting synopsis on men committing adultery so they can have a way out of their marriage. I have thought about that and I think it is true.
Linda,
You are obviously very emotional in this debate otherwise you wouldn’t have overlooked the fact that I made it clear that my wife never went to a Pastor for counsel on anything and that the website I posted wasn’t about me. Maybe you need to stop broad brushing those who don’t agree with u and you also should stop Casting aspersions on me and others just because we don’t see things completely your way. I have been very respectful in this debate and it would be nice if the same was returned without accusations or stone throwing. I have been where you are and sometimes after being abused the victim takes on some of the traits of the abuser and you seem to be abit abusive in your communication with me.
Linda,
I have been thru hell and back in an abusive marriage so I do understand your plight, the stuff I mentioned was only the tip of the iceberg
Hannah,
“1. Since you are a psychologist, or counselor (pardon my not remembering), why are you in hiding and why are you not working, so to make a living for yourself? I know you have said you are homeless. Do you have a restraining order? Does your husband threaten you now?
2. Do you think that “treatment” and other steps” as you described will cause repentence from your husband apart form an act of his own will and the workings of he Lord?
1) I cannot answer these questions, as it would only give information to enable my husband to locate and to harm me professionaly and otherwise. At the same time please understand that I am, as much as possible trying to keep this within the church rather than create a situation that is purely legal and not taking in consideration of the spiritual elements that are inherent in the way that God has instructed us to handle things from within the church.
2) Absolutely not!!!! I believe that accountability must come first to enable my husband to see the truth from the lie he has created to avoid being held to an account. Until this happens, he will not repent. After this realization, there are excellent programs that are Christian oriented and will get to the root of what drives him and the way that he goes about to get good things but in a very ungodly, worldly, manipulative and narcissistic manner that uses others as objects to feed his ego, pride and abiltiy to control. But without God being at the helm, then there will not be any real changes made in his heart.
Sort of like Paul being knocked off fhis horse. As long as my husband is being enabled to practice this deception, he has no motivation to repent. So, I am trusting in God that he will provide a lightening bolt to get my husband’s attention. In the meantime, I know the lies that he is or have told and so I counter them by alerting and making others aware that we are married and that he has no biblical grounds to divorce me nor a right to be with any other woman. Along with this is to make others aware that I have abandoned my marriage but instead having to hide due to the threats he has consistently made upon my life in order bully me into leaving the marriage, committing suicide, or projecting his own wrong doing and mental health issues upon me.
The book by Lundy Bancroft outlines the dynamics of abuse as well as define what it i and what it is not. What more, it spends a lot of time in helping everyone to know how to support and to provide intervention that would enable the abuser to get the help that they need in order to be able to save his marriage. The general understanding from most people, including clinicians who have not been trained and practiced in these issues can be as unaware as I was when it comes to be up close and personal. So abuse happens to another no matter how educated or how affluent a person might be.
Pastor Jeff said these things so much better and with far less words. So please encourage your Pastor and church leadership to read the letter and follow Pastor Jeff admonition and direction.
Hannah, sorry but that is as far as I can go in answering the questions you posed.
This is for all to understand: divorce is not the answer, even though it may be the answer for my husband. It is not God’s will. God’s will is for my husband to repent and to make the amends in order to vindicate and to make right the wrongs he has done.
So in that because I am fully capable of forgiving my husband, I am trusting that God will make a way. That’s all.
Correction: “”have abandoned my marriage ”
Should read: have “not” abandoned my marriage or violated my vows.
Solomon: The topic of this stream is a letter written by a Pastor to other Pastors.
Sorry, you are not able to hear what I have shared with you regarding your own agenda in taking the attention away from equipping those Pastors and pastoral leaders who oversee a flock given under their care to address the issues that was brought forth in this letter.
My opinion stands, as is based on your reluctance to do as he has recommended. Spending time on this site trying to discern or what does or does constitute abuse or what should or should not be brought to the attention of the church leaders is not serving any purpose execept distract from the importance of such a letter and its recommendation for repentance and becoming equipped to protect those being harmed.
Linda,
Respectfully
Are open to the chance that your husband may never repent and in fact may have never been a true brother in christ? I mean what u have described of him sounds like he may have never been truly born again. The bible is crystal clear that are free from the bond of this marriage so why live your life in this state that u are in? The joy of the Lord is our strength and we have to move forward in life and not look back. If I would have stayed in my first marriage big liklihood I would’ve ended up dead. Why put urself thru misery?
Btw,
I go to a home fellowship which is church because two or more are gathered. I read Jeff’s letter and some of the stuff I agree with and some I don’t. Pastors do not supercede the Husband.
Being a victim does give one an inside perspective on things and certainly one can choose to do what you have done. But that’s not the issue, here, Solomon. The issue is Pastor Jeff’s letter and working within the church leadership to better equipped in identifying and providing better intervention regarding these issues.
You choose to extricate yourself from this, and that is your choice to do so. But it is not mine, nor is it Alex, but rather to work from without to work within to bring about positive changes, accountability, and godly leadership that exemplify that of a good shepherd the the flock that looks to it to provide direction, nurturing, and protection for women and children, in particular. Pastor Jeff has written a letter to Pastors with good cause and sound reasoning along with recommendations. If you do not want to be a part of this, that’s okay, but please don’t say that I am being emotional—for the reason you stated.
Even if this wasn’t pertaining to your own marriage, you were still using materials that justified your position and what I can see is your agenda, but not the agenda of Pastor Jeff letter to Pastors. The point is abuse is being perpetrated from within the church and the church is ill equipped to handle it because lack of knowledge concerning these things. Pastor Jeff gave his own take on this and I am in total agreement with him.
You are not—-an inordinate amount of time have been spent on discussing handling these things according to what you have done, but it only serves to distract from what is needed in the church that does have a organized pastoral leadership with a flock that puts their trust and chooses to socialize with one another.
Now if you are seeing yourself as a leader within the group that you fellowship with, and choose not to follow Pastor Jeff recommendations, then even though you are a victim, there is so much more to understand than this that is involved. So, even though you choose not to be involved in, as you put “institutionalized” Christian leadership, your solution is not a solution at all for those that choose otherwise.
To the ladies: how many have you heard from a man that when you disagree with them, they then say you are being: emotional? Sort of kind of supposed to win their point or silence you, huh. LOL.
Solomon, I knew what I said was not going to sit well with you. That’s okay, it doesn’t have to. What is important to know is what can be done and what will a person do in the way that Pastor Jeff letter to Pastor has recommended to stop the abuse and to hold the abuser accountability, while hopefully enabling a process to take place that would heal and reconcile the parties involved? For we are told by Paul to handle these things withiin the church using the Matthew 18 format. But if our leaders are not equipped to do so, then they will only find reasons to ignore and perpetuate the harm and the abuse.
#113
As long as my husband is hearing the word, although he may be exploiting it and others as well, there is a chance he will repent.
You know that is a good question.
God has placed upon and within my heart towards a man who although have behaved so badly and as a heathern, (although I know heathen that are far more honest and faithful than he is), the love that was pour out into my own heart as a result of the love and forgiveness that was given to me by the Lord compels me to do the same for my husband.
I do not believe that it is God’s will for me to be bullied by my husband to enable him to end our marriage in such a way that would enable him to be a Pastor. If he wants to end the marriage, he will have to abide by the requirements that the Judge have stipulated and is mandatory for all divorces. But in God eyes, he still has not biblical grounds to do so.
So, he will have to wrestle with his own conscience and what I believe the Holy Spirit is using to convict his heart about. Otherwise, why wouldn’t he abide with the Judge orders, rather than to continue in his charade and try to intimidate me to do something stupid and out of God’s will for our marriage?
I have no desire to be married to any other than my husband. I am perfectly contented in living as a God honoring woman while I fight for my marriage and the very soul of my husband. Isn’t that what Jesus did for us even in the midst of a people that was so very unfaithful, rebellious, disobedient, and ever so wallowing in the mire, and chasing after this or that to fulfilled their wantom desires, separated and not being able to be reconciled to God, the Father.
So, yes even though my husband has held a murderous heart towards me, it is God and His people that I take comfort and knowing that nothing is too difficult or impossible for God to do. For me, it is a matter of not lifting a hand yet speaking the truth while standing stedfast as my husband’s God given wife and God’s handmaiden.
Not a matter of making my life easier or being able to marry again.
Also one other consideration.
My husband knows the word and he knows that he is not free to marry anyone else unless I were to die. Me divorcing him is not going to set him free to marry someone else. Now, sure outward appearance wise, he can say whatever he wants to in order to avoid losing what is not his to have or to gain. But it is his consceince that he will have to wrestle with and God has promises that for these He will avenge His own. My husband knows the truth and he know that I am not one to compromise my walk with the Lord or to be compromised by him. That really gets in the way of the bondages that he has lived in long before he met me. To convenietly repent in order to become a pastor or to marry again is not repentance at all. So, as far as I can figure out is that my husband is really pissed off because his back is against the wall and his lies will eventually find him out—and lie any person who is an addict or unfaithful and abusive, who do you think they blame for their dilemma—therefore who must they get rid of in order to cover it all up?
Hannah, you will like this one: such are the wages of sins in your life.
“and lie any person who is an addict or unfaithful and abusive, who do you think they blame for their dilemma—therefore who must they get rid of in order to cover it all up?
and believe me, any person who is an addict
It is just like the rapist who blames his victim and then murders them to get rid of the evidence. Or the husband that call shis wife crazy when she is in tears telling the truth in the face of being betrayed, abused, threatened and persecuted, octracized, alienated, and isolated.
#113 this concerns more than just me and my husband. it concerns the entire body of believers, as well as those who are seeking or being ministered to being in the fold.
We are not speaking of things in terms of a healthy relationship with your spouse.
Pastor Jeff’s letter is addressing the abuse that is being perpetrated within the church and the lack of intervention being provided those who are being abused, molested, raped, cheated and preyed upon, as well as other forms of unholy behaviro that is “a pattern of cohersive behavior that seves to control and to oppress. In this case, if the husband is the offender, than he is no longer the spiritual leader and has only one option: Humble himself, repent, get whatever treatment is needed while being placed under constant acountability by other brothers via his wife’s reports and the fruits that are necessary to earn his wife’s respect and trust.
To those who would like to know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRNFf3ykQvM
ALEX, CAN YOU PLEASE COPY YOUR MAIN POST/THIS PASTOR’S LETTER OF REPENTANCE AND SEND IT TO BOB????
He needs it plus a sit-down with the pastor who wrote it.
Linda wrote,
My husband knows the word and he knows that he is not free to marry anyone else unless I were to die. Me divorcing him is not going to set him free to marry someone else.
So Linda, if I understand you right, and we understand the word than no one is free to marry anyone else after a divorce. Basically you appear to be making an argument that there is no such thing as divorce and in a way you are both being held hostage to this marriage that is not working.
But you have already told us that you have biblical grounds for divorce. So it appears that you are stating that you could divorce him if you want to and remarry but he could not be free to remarry someone else until you die. In addition, you have told us that he wants a divorce but you will not allow it. It appears that you are the one, and not him that is being controlling in this relationship. But maybe I am wrong. I am having a hard time following.
Linda said:
“As long as my husband is hearing the word, although he may be exploiting it and others as well, there is a chance he will repent.”
This is actually a testimony against him not for him as per the scripture below his conscience may already be seared.
1 Timothy 4:1-2-”Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron”
Linda said:
“I do not believe that it is God’s will for me to be bullied by my husband to enable him to end our marriage in such a way that would enable him to be a Pastor.”
Sounds like your Husband is the prototype for a WOLF which in that case there is little if any chance for repentance
Jude 1:4-”For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Timothy 6:5-”useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.”
See Linda we are to withdraw from such men as your Husband not try to chnage him. And the blessing for you is that you are no longer in bondage to this marriage to what appears to be a WOLF. The problem with many Christians that are in Organized Christianity is that they try to change abusive systems rather than run away as far as possible and not look back just like Lot didn’t look back at Sodom and Gomorrah. These Church’s that foster abuse are nothing more than spirtual mortuary’s that are to be abandoned by true sheep as we are not to try and change them from within.
1 Corinthians 15:33-”Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
Pastors and Church’s that foster abuse should be exposed and then we are to withdraw from them not try to change them. Just kick the dust of your feet and don’t cast your pearls to swine as these men will not change beause they are Wolfs in shgeep clothing, apostles of deceit.
Linda said:
“As long as my husband is hearing the word, although he may be exploiting it and others as well, there is a chance he will repent.”
This is actually a testimony against him not for him as per the scripture below his conscience may already be seared.
1 Timothy 4:1-2-”Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron”
Linda said:
“I do not believe that it is God’s will for me to be bullied by my husband to enable him to end our marriage in such a way that would enable him to be a Pastor.”
Sounds like your Husband is the prototype for a WOLF which in that case there is little if any chance for repentance
Jude 1:4-”For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Timothy 6:5-”useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.”
See Linda we are to withdraw from such men as your Husband not try to chnage him. And the blessing for you is that you are no longer in bondage to this marriage to what appears to be a WOLF. The problem with many Christians that are in Organized Christianity is that they try to change abusive systems rather than run away as far as possible and not look back just like Lot didn’t look back at Sodom and Gomorrah. These Church’s that foster abuse are nothing more than spirtual mortuary’s that are to be abandoned by true sheep as we are not to try and change them from within.
1 Corinthians 15:33-”Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
Pastors and Church’s that foster abuse should be exposed and then we are to withdraw from them not try to change them. Just kick the dust of your feet and don’t cast your pearls to swine as these men will not change beause they are Wolfs in shgeep clothing, apostles of deceit.
Linda @ 104 – You are right, in your situation (and mine as well, my ex-wife abused me) counseling would not have helped. I did ask for counseling, but she refused and I realized later that it wouldn’t have mattered anyways.
Being a pathological liar with several mental disorders would have made any counseling pointless. The “reality” she lived in did not include me as a loving husband. I was “always wrong” no matter the circumstances. In fact, I was often blamed for things ‘she did’ because her mind would convince her it was me.
While our situations are completely different. I understand abuse, pain, and mental disorders very well. God bless.
Linda at 104 wrote:
As for the church involvement they can be key player in holding the abuser to an account while supporting the victim and sending a clear message that this will not be tolerated. In the meantime, the offender can get treatment and bear the fruits of repentence, not on his terms for he does like power and control but on the terms of the person that was violated.
What concerns me with this is when the abuser is the pastor himself or the church leadersip itself. All too often this is the case in Moses Model churches where senior pastor thrives on his power and the one violated has none. When I see this abuse in leadership, last thing I want is the church involvement.
“What concerns me with this is when the abuser is the pastor himself or the church leadersip itself. All too often this is the case in Moses Model churches where senior pastor thrives on his power and the one violated has none. When I see this abuse in leadership, last thing I want is the church involvement.”
This^^^
Interesting discussion going on – I’ll throw in my take on it all – from my own experience and having been married 30+ years and trying to do the best I can: I have come to believe there is no “male or female” in Christ. We are all individuals with different talents and abilities. The word “submit” to me means to love and that’s it. We are to be loving and thats enough to keep me busy with working on myself. Christ loves us and we love back and men are to love their wives and they are to love back in everything we do. Imo, other than that forget it. It is insulting to women for example, to think that means the man makes all the decisions by himself or gets the final say, or lords over the household in domination. I get disgusted when I hear a pastor tell a young woman he’s marrying to “obey” her husband. Vomit…. In my own experience “acceptance” of the other person is what works most. Allowing them to have a free will and mind of their own and be their own person with their own friends either as a couple or alone. To me being good friends is the most important thing. Im my case, for example, we would have ended up homeless if I hadn’t taken over control of our finances which I didn’t want to. I thought that was the “man’s job” as head of the household, blah blah. My husband is a disaster with money (and was before we got married but I didn’t look at that as I was young) and so he eventually “decided” to let me handle that because he couldn’t. And he wasted so much money over the years spending spending out of control like you always hear women blamed for. I finally had to put down my foot and it was hard to stop him but I wasn’t going to the streets. Unfortunately I think it is because of his background he has little common sense in most things. So I’ve been forced to give up notion of the man as the “leader”, etc. as it isn’t going to ever happen here. No, I’ve had to accept him the way he is or get divorsed. I would tell any young person; find a person you can be yourself with, have fun with, and get to know them well before you marry to see if you can live with them the way they are. Any financial issues going on? or any other problems like being a slob or a neat freak? Most likely as I’ve seen, people don’t change just because they get “married”. And many Christians get divorsed because geez he or she isn’t living up to my expectations of what the “church” says he or she should be doing. Imo, find a best friend who has the same ideas about living, not someone you expect to be some certain way.Haha -aint going to work Christian or not a Christian.
Sue said:
“In my own experience “acceptance” of the other person is what works most. Allowing them to have a free will and mind of their own and be their own person with their own friends either as a couple or alone.”
This^^
So true, I don’t want to give the impression that my wife doesn’t have her ownm friends even male is okay by me because I trust her. Neither male nor female. My wife doesn’t like the idea of me with female friends but I include her with them as I explain to her that they are sisters in the Lord. There seems to be too much divisoon among male-female in the Church and much of this is perpretated by the Institutional Church system. I mean we are all adults do we really need others micro managing our lives
Like ^^^^^^
I will add that women are to be their husbands helpmeets.
So we can open up a whole discussion on that
The like was for Sue!
#122 Andrew,
Because of many factors involved that I cannot share with anyone on this, some things may not make sense or are difficult to follow.
My husband initiated the divorce but was denied them because he failed provide the courts with financial information each party of a maritial proceeding is required to submit. At the same time he told others, including me 3 months later, he did go through with the dvorce becasue he knew he would be in disobedience to God’s Wordl.
I was not present at this hearing, but rather took the position that if that is what my husband wanted then I was not going stand in his way. But God did by knowing my husband would do what the courts required. He did tell anyone this was the reason, but tagged a more heroic bent on it instead while covering other things. Later, he told me he was going to dismiss everything, but didn’t.
NO, I don’t desire a divorce, but I won’t do anything legally to prevent either. My husband has to stand before the Lord to give an account on his answers and actions or inactions he has taken against me and our marriage, just as I do.
But the bottom is as long as God is on the throne, nothing is too difficult or impossible for Him to accomplish. And until I have a peace in my heart or that my husband does divorce me, I will tand in the gap.
For the purpose of Pastor Jeff’s letter and for people like myself, I will continue to use my situation to speak up for to draw attention to enable change to be made within the churches. Not just CC, but in particular CC.
Some have thrown in the towel and just turn back to let us know prompt them to leave their church and that’s okay. But others, like Alex have decided to continue seeking resolution from by working from the outside in. That is okay, too.
So although, I remain in hiding for my own safety, I have not, nor will I leave my marriage. Believe me, I know what other options there are, however, as cleaqr as it may be for another, it is not the option that I thinkj is best for our marriage.
Please understand onece again—I cannot share all that is involved for the sake of our marriage and my own well- being. Nevertheless, this does not change what is needed within the church leadership and the body at large in terms of what Pastor Jeff’s letter has addressed. The things that he has mentioned does happen in the church within the leadership, as well as the genral body. Instead of sticking our head in the sand or walking away while not reaching back to warn others, but also to work towards those things that would enbale all toa ddrss these thing by following his instructions, well IMO, I think it is a lot of what we are complaining about what the leadership is doing concerning these issues. No offense meant to anyone, just food for thought.
Correction: My husband initiated the divorce but was denied them because he failed provide the courts with financial information each party of a maritial proceeding is required to submit. At the same time he told others, including me 3 months later, he did go through with the dvorce becasue he knew he would be in disobedience to God’s Wordl.
My husband initiated the divorce proceedings, but had no biblical grounds to do so. When he submitted his petition to finalize the divorce–he refuse to provide a financial statement. I was not present, but it is part of the court records. He did not tell others this is what happened. Instead he gave them a more heroic explaination. More recently, he is now telling others that we are divorced. And I have been told that he is passing someone off as his wife. Yet we are married and not even legally separated. So, my guess is he is using the assumption of people that it is possible to gain a divorce elsewhere, Which by the way, without my signature he cannot do this.
My husband has entwined himself into a royal mess becuase his pride would permit him to own the problem that he has, therefore,,..given human nature and the way God works, sooner or later, things will bust open and hopefully, he’ll use that opportunity to do what he should have done a long, long time ago. By the way, if it was with this girl, it would have been with someone else.
As for controlling him—-are you kidding me—-no one controls my husband. That is why it is a God thing. LOL
Linda said: Some have thrown in the towel and just turn back to let us know prompt them to leave their church and that’s okay. But others, like Alex have decided to continue seeking resolution from by working from the outside in. That is okay, too.
Linda – Can you please explain this further? I’m not understanding what you mean by throwing in the towel and turning back/prompt them to leave their church.
Andrew:
“‘My husband knows the word and he knows that he is not free to marry anyone else unless I were to die. Me divorcing him is not going to set him free to marry someone else.”‘
“So Linda, if I understand you right, and we understand the word than no one is free to marry anyone else after a divorce. Basically you appear to be making an argument that there is no such thing as divorce and in a way you are both being held hostage to this marriage that is not working.
But you have already told us that you have biblical grounds for divorce. So it appears that you are stating that you could divorce him if you want to and remarry but he could not be free to remarry someone else until you die. In addition, you have told us that he wants a divorce but you will not allow it. It appears that you are the one, and not him that is being controlling in this relationship. But maybe I am wrong. I am having a hard time following.’”
Andrew,
Sorry, that is not what I was saying. By my husband knowing the word and continuing to go where it is being taught, the Holy Spirit can used this as well as the prayers and fasting that goes on, on his behalf and the behalf of our marriage can change things within his heart.
As for biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage scirpture is clear. God hates divorce, but does permit in the case of adultery, or in the case of an unbeliever’s abandonment of the marriage.
Without getting into the what, if’s, and hows. No, an adulterer is not permitted to remarry, as any union they have would be considered adultery. That is, until the innocent spouse of this marriage that was ended, dies.
Oh, there are so many people that would say, yeah, but I repented. Really, then why are you still sleeping with someone else?
The woman caught in adultery—Jesus said, “Go, and sin no more—–not to continue living a life of fornication, sexual immorality, and or adultery.
People think they can work the scriptures to excape the hard things of God regarding Marriage. What more they think they can cry repentance, but without the fruits and somehow God is supposed bless that which is an abomintion to Him.
I am just not one to jump on the band wagon so quickly and not permit God to work in a situation that is undergirdd with some pretty hard things that h0lds one in bondage. And I would ask you and everyone one else to support and pray that God uses this to do great and mighty things in the lives of so many. For the sake of all marriages and those who are or have been abused, as well as, for the souls of those who abuses.
One more time, I would refer everyone back to Pastor Jeff’s letter to get the word out to the Pastors and to do what he has addressed. You don’t need to know anything else abut my situation. But rather, please, in the name of the Lord,, pay attention to what Pastor Jeff letter says. Debating the issues of man’s authority or the roles of gender is not helping to change things. What will you do in terms of Pastor Jeffs’s letter. I hope it is not to tear it apart, but to ue it to help the victms and the body of Christ to stop the abuse that you may have thought was not such. Physical abuse is not the only type of abuse that causes PTSD and other harm. As a mattter of fact, had the abuse been identified much earlier and intervention provided, most physical abuse would not have taken place.
Julie,
Huh?
Julie, you asked me to expound on
Linda – Can you please explain this further? I’m not understanding what you mean by throwing in the towel and turning back/prompt them to leave their church.
Some people leave under negative circumstances and just move on.
Some people leave under negative circumstances, move on, but then gossip.
Some people leave under negative circumstances, move on, but reach back to warn.
Some people leave under negative circumstances, but reaches back, to warn and to work towards speaking the truth and seeking the process of repentance and reconciliation.
None, are negative, except #2, for that is most self serving and does no one any good except to toot your own horn or agendas.
But everyone falls into one of these depending on how they see things and what they can personally on or what they need to let do.
I’m sorry, I’m tired. Hope this make more sense to you, Julie.
LOL said I was tired.
“on or what they need to let do.”
take or, what they need to let go.
I think each of needs to be mindful of the God’s Word in order to know what He would have each of us do. Some needs to be and are gifted in bing more of an activist, or a spokesperson. Others may be what outwardly is seen as being more passive, but in reality are mighty in prayer. That’s all. We all know these things are going on, what are you going to do, using the gifts that God gave to love his church and to address the abuse that is taking place within it. Pastor Jeff is showing us what needs to be done. He is speaking the truth, so anything less than joining him in this quest is nothing less then keeping your head in the sand or refusing to admit that just maybe by doing so, it only perpetuates the abuse that has, that is, and that will go on.
Thank you, Linda, for clearing that up for me. It makes perfect sense now.
Linda – I’m not sure if you saw my post earlier, but I am willing to use my blog to share more on this topic. I’ve already posted Jeff’s letter, but would like to shed more light. Do you have any ideas? Do you have anything you can offer – or maybe guest post? You, having experienced this difficulty, know far more than me on how the church can be more helpful. Also, I value your expertise on the subject.
Please let me know.
Julie Anne
bgbcsurvivors @ gmail.com (no spaces)
Julie, sorry I haven’t responded to your invitation.
Alex, I need you to give me a thumbs up in light of the last “offer” I received. My life needs to be protected and there is much I cannot share in order to bring about the best results for everyone and in light of God’s Word.
By the way, earlier either made a statement or posed a question concerning marriage and remarriage. I commented but did not really want to spend time on this as I don’t think that is the focus or what needs to be stressed and discussed in order to bring about a huge change in the level of awarenss and understanding regarding the issues of abuse that Pastor Jeff’s Letter to the Pastor brought to our attention.
So, what I did is to search a breach article that does a fair job on the issue of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. It is my opinion that humans will find whatever loopholes they can to get out of the marriage, rather than to think of all the reasons to stay in the marriage, regardless of the feelings we may or may not have towards our spouse. In tying this to the Pastor’s letter, I believe with all my heart that if the things that he recommend was put into place, the attitudes and beliefs that some hold towards the entitlements they think they have over their spouse and children would find them out much sooner, because the church would be far more equipped to do what has been used by the offender to cover this up by using the leadership to persecute and victimize the victims even more.
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/11-17.html
Julie, sorry I haven’t responded to your invitation.
Alex, I need you to give me a thumbs up in light of the last “offer” I received. My life needs to be protected and there is much I cannot share in order to bring about the best results for everyone and in light of God’s Word.
By the way, earlier, someoner made a statement or posed a question concerning marriage and remarriage. I commented, but did not really want to spend time on this as I don’t think that is the focus or what needs to be stressed and discussed in order to bring about a huge change in the level of awarenss and understanding regarding the issues of abuse that Pastor Jeff’s Letter to the Pastor brought to our attention.
So, what I did is to find a brief article that does a fair job on the issue of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. It is my opinion that humans will find whatever loopholes they can to get out of the marriage or anything else), rather than to think of all the reasons to stay in the marriage, regardless of the feelings we may or may not have towards our spouse. We, are so incline to follow our emotions, rather than to obey God’s Word.
In tying this into the Pastor’s letter, I believe with all my heart that if the things that he recommended were implemented would drastically change things in the church and in the home, and families would be healed and marriage would stay intacted.
The attitudes and beliefs that some hold towards the entitlements they think they have over their spouse and children would find them out much sooner, because the church would be far more equipped to do what has been used by the offender to cover this up by using the leadership to persecute and victimize the victims even more.
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/11-17.html
Read “my last paragraph and thought I should reword it.
“The attitudes and beliefs that some hold towards the entitlements they think they have over their spouse and children would find them out much sooner, because the church would be far more equipped to do what has been used by the offender to cover this up by using the leadership to persecute and victimize the victims even more. ”
Attitudes and beliefs held by some of the entitlements they think they have over their spouse and children, using Biblical verses, concepts, and principles, but with a certain twist on it to justify what is coersive and terribly oppressive would be expose sooner than later, because of the training, the understanding, the ability to identify, and to implement measures that would stop the horrors that are being perpetrated.
For now, these types of individuals, be it among the leadership or the general body are using their influence, being with a charming or humble facade they are able emulate or they have join with tose who are guility of these attitudes and beliefs themselves. We, who can identify with such abuse stand with Pastor Jeff in saying people of God and leaders——-it is happening, it has happening and it will continue to happen if we do not do something different. We look towards those who call themselves Pastors to begin this process by repenting and following Pastor Jeff is his efforts to make our churches, our children and our women and men safe from these who hold such attitudes and beliefs that would harm even one of us.
Julie
A little late in the day——but I wanted to tell you that all the questions you posed are answered in the material Pastor Jeff has recommended. First things, first. For to answer your questions, one must really get a grasp and a working knowledge of what constitutes abuse and how is it played out by the offender towards the victim and how it impacts the victim and reinforces the abuser attitude and belief regarding the entitlements that he thinks he has.
#10 “So how do you assess which reason would qualify for divorce and who gets to be the judge? I think that is what a lot of divorced people are dealing with. They may have suffered abuse in their marriage and then they have to go on trial/jury at church to see if it met the criteria. That almost feels like re-victimizing. Let’s say someone moved to a new area and at a new church – – is the new pastor going to interrogate each new member about the reasons for divorce? I’ve never thought about this stuff until recently and frankly, I’m alarmed. These are serious issues. What seems to be lacking, however, is grace in so many of these cases. Another thing that seems to be lacking is someone walking alongside the couple in the thick of things and providing accountability.”
To answer things things is like putting the cart before the horse. You have to know what you are dealing with—how to identity it, then work from there. The church and its leader could play such an important role in the community and family in addressing this and enabling so many positive to take place—the most important being stopping the abuse and building an environment of trust, safety, and respect.
Alex,
“My personal take is that there is room to agree to disagree with the issue of women pastors or elders.
I’m more concerned with how “leaders” in Complementarian church constructs treat people and women and kids etc and how they teach the men (through word and example) how to treat women and kids etc.
If you have a conviction that women shouldn’t be pastors/elders, no problem (but you might want to take a whole lot of other stuff literally as well, like women covering their heads, guys not having long hair etc…lots of inconsistency in the more literalist positions, kind of pick and choose)…treat the women and children as the Servant of All, and as Jesus would…and don’t foster a chauvinist prick attitude and don’t give spiritual license for dudes to be abusive dicktators.
Liberals, please resist the urge to brand every conservative an abuser…though many are…I can vouch for that.”
Alex, a really big huge, awesome bear hug for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on behalf of how well you say things and have a gift of dropping in at just the right time.
Neither women/men should have to put up with abuse and at the very least have a right to separate from the abuser and live in peace. Divorce is another issue but if you have biblical grounds then do it if you and no one has any place to Judge. Abuse is no respector of genders as men get abused almost as much as women at least emotional/verbal/financial and even physical which is a big taboo that no one wants to admit. So I don’t have an issue with Jeff wanting to eradicate this from church institutions but he needs to be more well rounded and recognize that the abuse goes both ways. Why is it that the world is light years ahead of the institutional church in recognizing that men also get abused by women and it is not isolated either. Let’s have balance and perspective on this subject.
Solomon,
I think Pastor Jeff recognized that men are abused as well. He may not have placed as much emphasis on this and I can understand why you would like to bring this out. Please consider this: Where there is ever an inbalance or misuse of authority and power, this will increase the likelihood of abuse. So, when people hold that the “man” is supposed to be the leader, head, or whatever over his household, wife, church, etc., then statistcally speaking, it is more likely that women and children will be abused. At the same time, men are abused as well, but the numbers are underreported due to factors such as: social stigma, lack of resources that recognize such abuse among men, and all the other elements that goes along with “thinking” that because a man is man, he cannot be abused.” When in fact and in truth, they are as well.
I totally appreciate and join you in the last comment you made.
Shalom, in Jesus
LjP
Linda,
I think the article you pointed out to us on divorce has a lot of problems. In addition, the church of Christ in general of who published this article has even more problems. I think there is a lot of abuse in Church of Christ churches. For an abuse blog, I kind of find this ironic. Now that I know what we are dealing with, I agree with you and will stick with pastor Jeff Crispen and his recommendations.
Andrew, your points regarding the Church of Christ are made upon that which we know have been involved in many types of abuse cases. But that should not cause anyone to discount Scripture. by the way the doctrinal beliefs stated on this site appears to be not any different than any other evanglical or conservative church. They may differ on the non-essential, but on the essential beliefs, they are right on. Not all Church of Christ are, so as one very astute theologian pointed out to me, be careful of lumping them all together.
Scripture does not change and if what is being shared regarding biblical grounds is true, then we need to take heed and not throw truth out with the bathwater.
I do not attend this church, but I do know that each is different. As for the letter that Pastor Jeff wrote to Pastors, I think we can all agree that every church and its leadership needs to take note and follow his recommendations.
As for the divorce and remarriage issue, I was responding to a question posed and a suggestion made to me regarding my own situation. Divorce is not always the answer, even though God may permit it and if an adulterer is permitted to remarry if they divorce their spouse without biblical grounds, and so on and forth. Like I said, regardless of man’s laws vs. Scriptures, we need to make sure that we don’t get the two mixed up, that is, placing the former cause and reasonings upon that which God has already told us to do and how to handle and to enable all parties to reconciliate if at all possible.
Perhaps, I should not have permitted myself to get pulled into giving a response concerning this, as the last thing I want to do is to distract from Pastor Jeff’s letter. But then again, the issues of sexual immorality and other type of unfaithful behavior often do play a huge part in those who abuse and misuse their “authority.”
Matthew 5:32
Matthew 19:32
Malachi 2:13
Malachi 2:14
Malachi 2:15
Malachi 2:16
Malachi 2:17
Malachi 3:5
I Cor 6:9
I Cor 7:10
I Cor 7:11
Sorry, that should be: Matthew 9:32
Oh my!!!!!!!! that wasn’t quite right—-LOL
Matthew 19:9
Please keep in mind the verse prior to this was during Moses days. Not to be used, that is “hard heartedness” in New Testament times and forward. But because CC is structured using what they call the “Moses Model” they permit what Jesus himself said not to do.
Linda wrote: by the way the doctrinal beliefs stated on this site appears to be not any different than any other evanglical or conservative church. They may differ on the non-essential, but on the essential beliefs, they are right on.
I’m not here to argue with you Linda but the doctrinal beliefs listed on the web site you gave us appear to be some of the most legalistic views I have ever seen. In my personal experience, legalism is a form of spiritual abuse. I don’t think they are “right on” regarding the essentials either when they consider all Christians not baptized their particular way to be unsaved. Regarding divorce, I don’t agree with their conclusions. The scripture verse you quoted above could be referring to a separation and not a legal divorce. I think once a legal divorce is carried out, I think you are hard pressed to say someone can not remarry after divorce until spouse dies. .This also is a type of legalism. My concern is that you are the one that is bringing distraction from pastor Jeff Crippen letter by juxtaposing it with a very legalistic understanding of divorce and remarriage as you did in 140.
….”In May 2007, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) published its study which found almost one-fourth of relationships had violence, about half of which was reciprocal, and the researchers were “surprised” to find that “in nonreciprocally violent relationships….women were the perpetrators in more than 70 percent of the cases,” and men incurred significant injuries (abusive women often use heavy objects and weapons such as guns, knives, cars)”…
“My concern is that you are the one that is bringing distraction from pastor Jeff Crippen letter by juxtaposing it with a very legalistic understanding of divorce and remarriage as you did in 140.”
Even using a legalsitc approach to divorce as Linda seems to be using, she has biblical grounds for divorce so I don’t know why she refuses to do it even though it would probably be the best thing for her being that her Husband appears to be a wolf
Solomon @ 154 – Linda’s method of ‘preserving the marriage’ is eerily similar to mine. I endured abuse for 3 years in hopes God would reconcile the marriage and ‘fix’ my broken ex-spouse.
Unfortunately, God does not fix that which does not want to be fixed. In the end, 3 years of abuse later, my ex kicked me out of my own home and her family threatened me with violence if I was to return. Keep in mind these were ‘born agian christians’ (Hindsight is 20/20 yeah?).
Many people mocked me for staying in the marriage. I had mountains of biblical grounds for divorce. But I stayed true to the marriage until God turned my ex over to a reprobate mind and the abuser ended up divorcing the abused anyways.
It was the biggest spiritual trial I have ever had to face, and likely will ever face. Going through it has made me a stronger person.
However, would I do so again? No, experience has taught me that God will not work where both partners do not serve Him. Unequally yolked.
Solomon wrote
“Even using a legalsitc approach to divorce as Linda seems to be using, she has biblical grounds for divorce so I don’t know why she refuses to do it even though it would probably be the best thing for her being that her Husband appears to be a wolf”
I believe it could be precisely because of this legalistic (abusive) approach that is preventing Linda from getting a divorce. Divorced people (regardless of innocence or guilt), in a legalist church are not looked upon very favorably. It is precisely because of this reason that I believe prevents some from getting a necessary divorce.
Andrew,
My apologies, if you think that I was responding to argue with you. I responded to clarify what I was asked several comments before this.
Regardless of what this church doctrinal position is, God’s Words remains unchanged. It is not me saying it—-it’s God’s Word.
Me getting or not getting a divorce is irrelevant, even though there are biblical grounds. There are factors I’m just not able share on this site. So, it’s pretty much neither here, nor there. Again, I apologize for offending you. That is hardly my intention, so please try not tear apart every word or point I am trying to get across.
Linda, no apology needed and no offense was taken. God’s Word doesn’t change and I definitely agree with you on that. I just think there is some misunderstandings on what God’s Word says when properly interpreted and this is what I am trying to address. This is a big concern of mine. Legalism I believe is a huge problem and I believe it is responsible for a lot of the abuse we see today.
Andrew,
I stand corrected on Church of Christ doctrinal belief statement. At the same time, we cannot ignore God’s Word which cannot be changed no matter how much it may not fit into what we would like it to say or permit us to do. God hates divorce and no matter how some would like to make it much easier or more plausible to divorce and remarry, perhaps we should be more studious in understanding why Jesus corrected the Pharisees and others by saying that “Moses permitted for hard heartedness, But I say to you. If a man …… . For me, that’s not anyone else speaking except God and far be from me to argue. I don’t care what church, pastor, or anyone else says. He said it, I believe it, and that settles it. I personally think that if more people would take this a lot more seriously, they wouldn’t wrangel to find a way to excuse themselves in treating their spouses and children so badly. Not if they say they love the Lord, that is. For it seem to me that their love is conditioned upon whether, or not, it is working for them getting what it is according to their desires and wants are dictating, rather walking in the Spirit and being obedient instead. Love is a choice and when begin to find loophole in Scripture then I think we began to lean upon our own understanding, riding the fence, and setting ourself up for a fall, if you will. To follow God’s Word particularly when comes to seeking or not seeking a divorce is as you know a very serious matter. Not one to be taken lightly, even if it is a slam dunk due to having Biblical grounds.
To clarify—-no, I do not attend a Church of Christ. Wouldn’t do, excpet maybe to visit with a friend.
Nice try Solomon——–I was asked a question regarding my own situation. It has been suggested several times that I ought to seek a divorce. I responded to that as well. Now, I not going to read through all the post, but if I remember correctly, Solomon, I could be wrong on this, but wasn’t it you that brought this into the picture.
Solomon, I thought we come to an agreement pertaining to Pastor’s Jeff’s letter. Let’s just it at that. Oh, by the stats from the CDC, would mind posting the reference, so we can put these things in its proper context. Lundy Bancrofts book also provides more current information regarding these stats. Did you know that 1 in ever four women are being abused by their husbands (not their pastors) in the church. This includes pastors wives. See Bancroft’s book.
Steve, there are many similarites, yet there are differences that I simply cannot share.
I would ask all to stop speculating and just support and pray for me in my efforts with the understanding that you do not nor can I discuss all factors with you. It’s not about changing my husband—–it’s about doing what I believe God would have me to do while remaining safe.
Linda, I agree with you that so many people take the marriage vows so lightly. I also commend you for taking this oath so seriously. This is truly admirable. I could also never tell you what or what not to do in your personal situation. This is between you, God and your husband. My concern is when you tell us you are in hiding.
In reference to Pastor’s Jeff letter, using my own situation of attempts to hold my husband to an account via CC leadership, as Scripture has told us to do and for the purpose of enabling him to repent and get the help needed to enable to reconciliate with me and our marriage, and so many others, rather than to continue in the ruse he has created while also preparing himself to be a pastor, I was attempting to bring reality home.
As a Christian, I am very concerned about how church discipline is or is not be implemented. For those who have been or are being abused, this should not be permitted. Pastor Jeff did a wonderful job in getting the ball rolling in the right direction to correct these problems while addressing some of the reasons why this has held many pastors and their leadership back.
In the book of Acts, we see the church as being a fellowship of believers. We also see the beginnings of men and women taking on various roles to administrate, oversee, and to provide various functions to enable the entire body of believers to be assisted, not just by the teaching of God’s Word, but in other ways as well, food, clothing, shelter, and other social interaction. All to enable each to fulfill the Great Commission. None are to be consider above or below another and each is to submit first to God’s Word, then to one another. But when these things are not address and the leadership sets themselves above the very person who they are to serve, be in the home or in the church, then pride and arrogance sets in and authority is misused and abused. Accountability is impossible, if nothing else, but simply due to the blindness that these two characteristics bring into play when working together.
I have shared my own situation to bring home the reality of the abuse that Pastor Jeff has referenced. It wasn’t to gain counsel here on this site, as it would not be good counsel because there are too many factors that are left out for my own protection and to also hopefully bring about repentance and reconciliation while preventing a terrible error by CC to permit my Husband to be a pastor at this time. Will my husband truely repent—only God knows this, not what the current evidence would like us to believe. As God has told us, nothing is impossible or too difficult for Him. Prayers are the most powerful weapon we have in conquering the enemy, be it in my husband’s heart or in the church overall.
So, this is what I wanted to share, for whatever it is worth those who would like to see our churches to become more like that which Scripture has described. A place of safety, comfort, and support, for all and not just those who “think” they are in control.
Andrew,
Thank you, from the depths of my heart.
As for hiding, sometimes it is best in order to accomplish a higher purpsoe. Jesus even hid during the time he sent his disciples into Jerusalem, saying His time had not come yet. David hid from Saul. Rahab hid the spies that were sent out. It is not comfortable, nor is it an easy thing to do when knowing that except that it be Christ who lives inside of me compels me to do what I believe to be the course I must follow, trusting in Him.
As you have shared, my faith have grown so much more in the Lord and the love I have towards others is more than I think I am able to withstand overshadows that which I would do if I did not know and love the Lord so very, very much. Thank you again, Andrew.
Linda said:
“Nice try Solomon——–I was asked a question regarding my own situation. It has been suggested several times that I ought to seek a divorce. I responded to that as well. Now, I not going to read through all the post, but if I remember correctly, Solomon, I could be wrong on this, but wasn’t it you that brought this into the picture.”
I think you may be wrong but I really don’t know what you are referring to. Brought what into the picture?
Linda,
I was physically, verbally and emotionall abused in my first marriage so do you think that I didn’t have a right to divorce her? She did cheat on me so that gave me the grounds even tho I wasn’t born again at that time but lets say I was, do really think that God would have me risk my very life by being with an abusive person. Even without physical abuse verbal abuse can severly damage someones spirit. I choose to live as peaecably as I can. I admire your steadfastness in staying true to your marriage but I just caution you that Wolves do not change they only get worse.
“I admire your steadfastness in staying true to your marriage but I just caution you that Wolves do not change they only get worse.”
I only say that because you do have bibliceal grounds.
Thank you, Solomon.
Just know my life is in danger with or without a divorce. So just pray for my continue safety and that he would be expose in such a way that only God can do to cause him to repent, get the treatment, and to lead a life free of his bondages to enable him to make the amends necessary to cease from violating me as well as others. Pray that God would grant me favor, mercy, and grace to enable me to continue to take care of responsibility and to help others along the way.
correction “and grace to enable me to continue to take care of responsibility and to help others along the way.”
should read: to take care of my responsibilities and to help others along the way.
Linda,
Very good observations.
I am praying for your safety. Apparently, you know too much, and have the situation figured out, so it is very difficult for this person to deal with you. Thats always the case of the person with the truth being persecuted. I have experienced this as well. In fact, in conversation, it was recently made known to a Pastor at my old church what happened to us (by my husband) and he has seen me several times since and has not said a word about it, even though he found out that a situation that happened, that he didnt have details on was exposed by myself. He acted surprised initially, but his “position” and “standing” at the church is apparently more important than being a part of making things “right”. Although not his responsibility, he and I are a part of the “church body”, even though we are no longer there, right?
The level of secrecy that you have brought up about abuse is the same tactics here.
If someone didnt see it, they will not speak about it.
Hidden sins…taboo to talk about-considered gossip….
It’s to the point where I am no longer surprised at this type of behavior, yet it still grieves me all the same. When heathens “get it” and believers don’t, theres a problem in paradise.
Psalm 19:12
Charles Spurgeon on “Secret Sins”
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0116.htm
Praying this for Alex and Linda today
One more point-maybe some would agree and it can open up a discussion…
In that sermon I posted by Spurgeon he speaks of the “law” convicting the sinner using the Psalm and David as an example.
I never heard much about the severity of our breaking the law at my CC. It was more about being covered in grace in the New Covenant-New Testament. We are not concerned about the law because we are not under the law.
Almost as if the law is no longer the model. So how can one be convicted that he has broken the law? How are the secret sins exposed, realized?
Hard to put into words at this early hour-
Hannah,
I think the Grace thing has been used by those who are Lukewarm as an excuse to continue in their sin and then say “oops” sorry God but I know your grace covers me. The road is narrow in following Christ and few find it. The cost of discipleship is to lose your life in this World which includes the Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Whether that is greed, sexual sin or pride in your standing in this world you must die to that. If we love the world then the love of the father is not in us, that seems to cover a lot. I think each person knows in their heart if they are truly repentant for their sins. But I would say that one who practices a life of sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Nor one who doesn’t walk down that narrow road and endure to the end as those who endure to the end shall be saved.
Luke 14;26-If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 24:11-13″Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”
Solomon,
I remember doing a Bible study about the “Kingdom of God”.
Some think that there are verses where the Kingdom refers to our status here as believers..kind of like “kingdom living” before we get to heaven (Kingdom) or the Millenium (KIngdom).
I also heard it referring to a state of mind.
It is hard to think ponder and reflect on grace, and resting in it, without thinking of our actions to merit it… and not be perceived as legalistic. So many things…even righteous living can be “works”.
Do you ever think that you are trying too hard to be reflective of your sins and standing with God? I do. And then if I don’t think too much about them, or self-reflect, I run the risk of not “working out my salvation with fear and trembling.
I for one am having a hard time finding this balance between wanting to be changed, trying in my own flesh to be more of what God would have me, and then sometimes getting a little to far away from even finding the joy in this unmerited grace…..somehow the whole subject of self-reflection seems self-centered, and then borders on self-idolatry.
Am I the only one feeling these things?
I posted the Spurgeon sermon because it applied to what was being discussed. I wonder if David was more convicted because he was under the law. How did anyone at that time then really understand God’s grace without the Cross?
PS. I know there was the sacrificial system, but that was a temporary atonement..I just read the Psalms and wonder how David knew apart from the finished work of the Cross that he was imparted righteousness without works based on repentence. I guess the Ruach HaKodesh-the Holy Spirit..
Hannah,
“how David knew apart from the finished work of the Cross that he was imparted righteousness without works based on repentence”
God spoke through his prophets. See, II Samuel 12 and II Samuel 12:13.
Also, Hebrews 1:1.
I don’t see where David was “imparted” righteousness. Scripture states he was “a man after God’s own heart” which meant David was willing to repent of his sins, unlike Saul.
Hannah,
In Hebrews 11:32-34 NKJV
“And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephtha, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through “faith” subdued kingdoms, “worked” righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to fight the armies of the aliensl
Please don’t forget to read Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors. Please let us know what you as a Pastor, Elder, Deacon, Lay Person, Member, Attendee, or Congregant are going to do or have done to get his letter out. Please let us know how you have followed up on his recommendations.
Thank you.
Please send letter to your friends, family, and other church leadership. Please help stop the abuse. Thank you.
Linda @175
“I don’t see where David was “imparted” righteousness. Scripture states he was “a man after God’s own heart” which meant David was willing to repent of his sins, unlike Saul.”
See Romans 4:6
Imputed, imparted…..
Also see Romans 1:11
Romans 4:4
Paul was presenting his argument on faith vs. work to the those who should believe in Jesus. “What then shall “we” say (?) . . . . . .”
9 Does this blessedness than come upon the circumcised only , or upon the uncircumcised also? For “we” say that faith was “accounted” “to Abraham for righteousness.” (Hebrews 11:32) (so, now Paul is talking about three groups of people: those before the law, those, since Moses, then those who believes in Christ)
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised , a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of “all” those who “believe,” “though” they are uncircumcised,
11 And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had “while” he (Abraham) still uncircumcised, “that” he (Abraham) might be the father of “all” “those” who believe, though they are uncircumsiced, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12. “And” the father of circumcision to those who are not only are of the circumcision, but “who” are of the circumcision, “but” “also” “walk in the steps of the faith” which our father had while still uncircumcised.
12 and the father of circumcistion to “those who not only are of the circumcision,” “though they are uncircumcised” that righteousness would be imputed them also,
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the “Promise” might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham who is the father of us all. (David was under the law).
17 (as it is written, I have made you father of many nations) in the presence of Him whom he believed–God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did:
19 And not being weak in faith, he (Abraham) did not waver at the “promise” (everasting/unconditional covenant) he (Abraham) did not consider hi own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old)., and the deaness of Sarah’s womb.
20 He (Abraham) did not “waver” (doubt) at the “promise” of God through unbelief, “but was strengthened in faith (because he did not doubt the promise God had made) in faith (due to his believing God would keep His promise) giving glory to God,
21 And “being fully convinced” that what He (God) had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And “therefore” “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 “Now it was not written for “his sake along” that it was imputed to him.
24 “but also for us (who are in Christ/and apart from the law). It shall be imputed tous who believ in Him (God, the Father) who raised up Jesus our lord from the the dead.
Romans 51
“Therefore,” having been justified by faith, we have peace with Go through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1) God made an everlasting unconditional promise to Abraham that extended to all Jewish throughout the generations.
2) Paul was introducing the Gospel of grace through belief in Jesus by way of establishing the covenant made with Abraham and all the Jews, circumcised or uncircumsized, to enable people to understand even before the law or Jesus died, God had already spoken these things into existence and placed His seal of righteousness, the sign of righteousness of the faith which he (Abraham) had while still uncircumcised.
Hannah,
Paul was speaking of the unconditional promise of faith given to Abraham and all his descendents even before Abraham was circumcised. And through this faith righteousness was imputed. God set Abraham apart from the rest of the world to work out His plan of salvation.
Every Hebrew or Jew knew of this promise, particularly David, being that he was King.
Psalms 32;2-3
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is “covered.”
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
“And” in whose spirit there is whose spirit is no deceit.
Paul quoted this contemplation that David was making, to stablish his argument regarding: God had already spoken these things into existence and placed His seal of righteousness, the sign of righteousness of the faith which he (Abraham) had while still uncircumcised.”
And through this faith righteousness was imputed. God set Abraham apart from the rest of the world to work out His plan of salvation.
It was upon this promise that David spoke in the Psalms.
Hannah,
I really like pondering these things with you while searching the scripture, but can we do this elsewhere? Because I would like to gear my comments towards Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors instead. At the same time, I don’t want to be be rude or ignore you.
Again folks:
Please don’t forget to read Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors. Please let us know what you as a Pastor, Elder, Deacon, Lay Person, Member, Attendee, or Congregant are going to do or have done to get his letter out. Please let us know how you have followed up on his recommendations.
Thank you.
Please send letter to your friends, family, and other church leadership. Please help stop the abuse. Thank you.
Moderator Please delete #179
Hannah, in consideration of what we are trying to determine here, I think we have to contemplate all of scripture while seeking to understand what Paul was teaching in Chapter 4 of Romans. That means we have to also consider who or what David was making references, as well as. Hebrews when it talks about faith and how it is completed. Because is not stagnate, it has life and meaning and by the Spirit, it has power. you might also go to James and 1 John as well.
Romans 4:4 NKJV
Paul was presenting his argument on faith vs. work to the those who should believe in Jesus. “What then shall “we” say (?) . . . . . .”
9 Does this blessedness than come upon the circumcised only , or upon the uncircumcised also? For “we” say that faith was “accounted” “to Abraham for righteousness.” (Hebrews 11:32) (so, now Paul is talking about three groups of people: those before the law, those, since Moses, then those who believes in Christ)
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised , a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of “all” those who “believe,” “though” they are uncircumcised,
11 And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had “while” he (Abraham) still uncircumcised, “that” he (Abraham) might be the father of “all” “those” who believe, though they are uncircumsiced, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12. “And” the father of circumcision to those who are not only are of the circumcision, but “who” are of the circumcision, “but” “also” “walk in the steps of the faith” which our father had while still uncircumcised.
12 and the father of circumcistion to “those who not only are of the circumcision,” “though they are uncircumcised” that righteousness would be imputed them also,
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the “Promise” might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham who is the father of us all. (David was under the law).
17 (as it is written, I have made you father of many nations) in the presence of Him whom he believed–God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did:
19 And not being weak in faith, he (Abraham) did not waver at the “promise” (everasting/unconditional covenant) he (Abraham) did not consider hi own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old)., and the deaness of Sarah’s womb.
20 He (Abraham) did not “waver” (doubt) at the “promise” of God through unbelief, “but was strengthened in faith (because he did not doubt the promise God had made) in faith (due to his believing God would keep His promise) giving glory to God,
21 And “being fully convinced” that what He (God) had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And “therefore” “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 “Now it was not written for “his sake along” that it was imputed to him.
24 “but also for us (who are in Christ/and apart from the law). It shall be imputed tous who believ in Him (God, the Father) who raised up Jesus our lord from the the dead.
Romans 5:1 NKJV
“Therefore,” having been justified by faith, we have peace with Go through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1) God made an everlasting unconditional promise to Abraham that extended to all Jewish throughout the generations.
2) Paul was introducing the Gospel of grace through belief in Jesus by way of establishing the covenant made with Abraham and all the Jews, circumcised or uncircumsized, to enable people to understand even before the law or Jesus died, God had already spoken these things into existence and placed His seal of righteousness, the sign of righteousness of the faith which he (Abraham) had while still uncircumcised.
Hannah,
Paul was speaking of the unconditional promise of faith given to Abraham and all his descendents even before Abraham was circumcised. And through this faith righteousness was imputed. God set Abraham apart from the rest of the world to work out His plan of salvation.
Every Hebrew or Jew knew of this promise, particularly David, being that he was King.
Psalms 32:2-3 NKJV
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is “covered.”
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
“And” in whose spirit there is whose spirit is no deceit.
Paul quoted this contemplation that David was making, to stablish his argument regarding: God had already spoken these things into existence and placed His seal of righteousness, the sign of righteousness of the faith which he (Abraham) had while still uncircumcised.”
And through this faith righteousness was imputed. God set Abraham apart from the rest of the world to work out His plan of salvation.
It was upon this promise that David spoke in the Psalms.
Hannah,
I really like pondering these things with you while searching the scripture, but can we do this elsewhere? Because I would like to gear my comments towards Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors instead. At the same time, I don’t want to be be rude or ignore you.
Again folks:
Please don’t forget to read Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors. Please let us know what you as a Pastor, Elder, Deacon, Lay Person, Member, Attendee, or Congregant are going to do or have done to get his letter out. Please let us know how you have followed up on his recommendations.
Thank you.
Please send letter to your friends, family, and other church leadership. Please help stop the abuse. Thank you.
Linda,
I posted a comment #174 about David and you decided to challenge me.
It was only then that I gave you those verses in Romans to support the comment I made.
Now you are saying
“Hannah,
I really like pondering these things with you while searching the scripture, but can we do this elsewhere? Because I would like to gear my comments towards Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors instead. At the same time, I don’t want to be be rude or ignore you.
I didnt ask you to “ponder” anything with me.
I gave you 2 verses and in 179 you gave me a 10 minute dissertation refuting me.
I still hold to the fact that according to Romans, David was imputed/imparted righteousness . David knew and understood the imparted righteousness he recieved by faith (which is what Romans 4 talks about anyway)
Linda,
KJV Romans 4:6
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Imputed/imparted….so is there still a challenge that David was not imparted/imputed righteousness based on faith?
I did not challenge you. You challenged me.
Hannah,
LOL I don’t what it is with you, Are you not able to have a dialogue with me without being agressive towards me. It was not meant to be a challenge. You posed a question, then made a statement. I gave it some thought and made a statement. You wanted to know how David knew that God imparted to him righteousness. I quoted Hebrews and stated I didn’t see where he imparted to him righteousenss, that it was because of faith, like Abraham that he was righteousness was imparted to him. Then you went to Romans. Said what you did, I followed your lead, thought about it and responded back. Then asked you not to pursue this here with me. But you did anyway, with an attitude. So, now I’ve responded one more time——enough is enough, Hannah.
As I was saying:
Again folks:
Please don’t forget to read Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors. Please let us know what you as a Pastor, Elder, Deacon, Lay Person, Member, Attendee, or Congregant are going to do or have done to get his letter out. Please let us know how you have followed up on his recommendations.
Thank you.
Please send letter to your friends, family, and other church leadership. Please help stop the abuse. Thank you.
My spouse took advantage of my anger at God for the cancer death of my first spouse and tricked me into another child, takes all my money, couldn’t careless about the truth, has no interest in Christ, and emotionally abuses me in the passive-aggressive manner. Nothing my spouse does is illegal..I fell for the lies, ignored the manipulation, thought encouragement would help my spouse stand up like an adult and help the family like we agreed before the marriage. But it hasn’t. Three years later I realize my spouse has no intention whatsoever of keeping the promises we made before we were married. My spouse was 28 yrs old living with mom cuz mom would never leave my spouses 2 children…so grandma inadvertently made it possible for my spouse to have two children and never have to provide for them. Then we met…at the time I didn’t care why my spouse would want to be involved with a person who had serious medical conditions, plural, and was 16 yrs older and already had 4 kids (2 adult and 2 at home) but I should of been more careful. Now my spouse still does not contribute to the family finances as agreed to prior to our marriage… still doesn’t provide anything but my pay checkk and benefits to the children my spouse brought into the relationship while my kids go on with farless then the had…this is what happens when you get so mad a God you can’t hear Him…none of what my spouse does is illegal…I. don’t have the heart to not pay for health and dental benenfits for my spouses kids…my spouse stole dishes/cookware (pampered chef) from herr nieghbor before we were together and when I couldn’t stand the fact that me and the kids were using stolen dishes/cookware and made her give them to a charity and bring me the reciept she told me she didn’t see why I was so upset because the nieghbors were insured and its not loke they were out any money….now three and a half years later I still don’t have a reciept from any charity…and I read a text on her phone that indicated the stuff is being stored at a friends house for after I’m dead..remember I have serious medical issues….any way that’s the bed I created and now I gotta lay in it.
I know how everyone just loves to read long posts. At the same I think that in line with Pastor Jeff’s Letter to Pastor these stats will help bring reality to the surface. Also, please remember 1 in every woman in church, including pastors wives is abused every day. Will see if I can find additional stats for abused men by women, as I know Steve and Solomon has brought this to our attention:
National Domestic Violence Statistics (frequency is rising since these stats)
•According to the U.S. Surgeon General, domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women in the United States.
•The American Medical Association estimates that their male partners assault 2 million American women each year.
•The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that 95% of the victims of domestic violence are women.
•A woman is beaten every 15 seconds in the United States. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, Report to the nation on Crime and Justice. The Data. Washington DC Office of Justice Program, US Dept. of Justice. Oct 1983)
•35% of all emergency room calls are a result of domestic violence.
•Of those who abuse their partner, well over 65% also physically and/or sexually abuse the children.
•Each day …..4 women die as a result of abuse.
•Each day …..3 children die as a result of abuse.
•The Federal Bureau of Investigation reports that 32% of female homicide victims are killed by their intimate partners. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Crime in the United States 1999.2000)
•Anywhere from 1-3 million women are battered each year by their intimate partner. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence. Washington DC, 2000.)
•In the United States, a woman is more likely to be assaulted, raped, or killed by an intimate partner than by any other type of assailant. (ibid.)
•Nearly one-third of American women report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives. (Commonwealth Fund Survey, 1998.)
•Approximately 85% of the victims of domestic violence are women. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence. Washington DC, 2000.)
•37% of all women who sought care in hospital emergency rooms for violence related injuries were injured by a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend. (US Department of Justice, Violence Related injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments, August 1997.)
•11% of all murders in 1998 were the result of domestic violence. (Office of justice Programs, May 17, 2000 press release , http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov)
•Domestic violence occurs to all types of women regardless of income, age, race, education, or belief system. (Office for Victims of Crime, Domestic Violence Victimization, 2002)
•Victimization by domestic violence is usually not a single even. If a woman is abused once, her risk of further abuse is high, and this abuse often becomes not only more frequent over time, but more severe. (ibid.)
•Domestic violence is a major contributing factor to other problems including child abuse, neglect, drug & alcohol abuse, emotional problems, job-loss, homelessness, and attempted suicide. (ibid.)
•The social and economic costs of domestic violence are enormous and generally uncounted and unrecognized. Public education, awareness, and community support are crucial for effective intervention. (ibid.)
•On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim 1993-9, October 2001.)
•A child’s exposure to the father abusing the mother is the strongest risk factor for transmitting violent behavior from one generation to the next. (American Psychological Association, Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family, 1996.)
•Slightly more than half of female victims of domestic violence live in households with children under age 12. (US Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates; Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, U.S. Department of Justice, March 1998)
•Studies show that child abuse occurs in 30-60% of family violence cases that involve families with children. (Edleson, J.L., Violence Against Women, The Overlap Between Child Maltreatment and Woman Battering, February, 1999.)
•The National Domestic Violence Hotline has received more than 700,000 calls for assistance since February 1996. -National Domestic Violence Hotline, December 2001.
•Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives – Commonwealth Fund Survey, 1998.
•It is estimates that 503,485 women are stalked by an intimate partner each year in the United States – National Institute of Justice, July 2000.
•Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend each year to 4 million women who are physically abused by their husbands or live-in partners each year. – Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, U.S. Department of Justice, March, 1998.
•Studies show that child abuse occurs in 30-60% of family violence cases that involve families with children. – “The overlap between child maltreatment and woman battering.” J.L. Edleson, Violence Against Women, February, 1999.
•While women are less likely than men to be victims of violent crimes overall, women are 5 to 8 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner – Violence by Intimates; Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, U.S. Department of Justice, March 1998
•Violence by an intimate partner accounts for about 21% of violent crime experienced by women and about 2% of the violence experienced by men. – Violence by Intimates; Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, U.S. Department of Justice, March 1998
•In 92% of all domestic violence incidents, crimes are committed by men against women. – Violence by Intimates; Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, U.S. Department of Justice, March 1994
•Of women who reported being raped and /or physically assaulted since the age of 18, three quarters (76 percent) were victimized by a current or former husband cohabitating partner, date, or boyfriend. – Prevalence Incidence, and Consequences of Violence
Against Women: findings from the national Violence Against Women Survey, U.S. Department of Justice, November, 1998
•In 1994, women separated from their spouses had a victimization rate 1 ½ times higher than separated men, divorced men, or divorced women. – Sex Differences in Violent Victimization, 1994, U.S. Department of justice, September, 1997
•In 1996, among all female murder victims in the U.S., 30% were slain by their husbands or boyfriends – Uniform Crime Reports of the U.S. 1996, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1996
•31,260 women were murdered by an intimate form 1976-1996 – Violence by Intimates; Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, U.S. Department of Justice, March 1998
•Forty percent of teenage girls age 14 to 17 report knowing someone their age who has been hit or beaten by a boyfriend. – Children Now/Kaiser Pemaente Poll, December, 1995
•Family violence costs the nation from $5 to $10 billion annually in medical expenses, police and court costs, shelters and foster care, sick leave, absenteeism, and non-productivity – Medical News, American Medical Association, January, 1992
•One in five female high school student reports being physically or sexually abused by a dating partner. – Massachusetts Youth Risk Behavior Survey (YRBS), August 2001
Modeling God: Abusive Mentality #4 Reversing Reality blogspot, quotes Lundy Bancroft in his book, “Why Does He Do That?”
‘”Lundy Bancroft writes:
“Abuse grows from attitudes and values, not feelings. The roots are ownership, the trunk is entitlement, and the branches are control.” (page 75)”
John Calvin based his interpretation of scripture upon the attitude and beliefs of his days. In one of his commentary on the role of women, he stated:
“Now Moses shews that the woman was created afterwards, in order that she might be a kind of appendage to the man; and that she was joined to the man on the express condition, that she should be at hand to render obedience to him. Since, therefore, God did not create two chiefs of equal power, but added to the man an inferior aid, the Apostle justly reminds us of that order of creation in which the eternal and inviolable appointment of God is strikingly displayed.”
NKJV Gen 1:26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Quotes taken from the writings of earlier “Church Fathers’, including Martin Luther. Calvin is considered a Reformist, not a church Father:
“If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth–that is why they are there.”
– Martin Luther
“The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes.” — Luther
“God created Adam master and lord of living creatures, but Eve spoilt all, when she persuaded him to set himself above God’s will. ‘Tis you women, with your tricks and artifices, that lead men into error.” –Luther
“Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children.” — Luther
“No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise.” –Luther
“What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman… I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children.”
– Saint Augustine of Hippo, Church Father, Bishop of Hippo Regius, 354 – 430
As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.
– Thomas Aquinas, Saint, Doctor of the Church, 13th century
Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one’s guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. … Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good.
– St. Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian and Doctor of the Church, 13th century
In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die… Woman, you are the gate to hell.
– Tertullian, 2nd-3rd century Churchfather
Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): “Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman.”
Clement (of Alexandria) excludes…intercourse with a…pregnant, barren, or menopausal wife and for that matter, with one’s wife ‘in the morning,’ ‘in the daytime,’ or ‘after dinner.’ Clement warns, indeed, that ‘not even at night, although in darkness, is it fitting to carry on immodestly or indecently, but with modesty, so that whatever happens, happens in the light of reason…’ for even that union ‘which is legitimate is still dangerous, except in so far as it is engaged in procreation of children. ”
Tertullian (160?-220?): “Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil’s doorway. You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags.”
Augustine (354-430): “Woman was merely man’s helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God.”
John Wesley (1703-91): “Wife: Be content to be insignificant. What loss would it be to God or man had you never been born.”
Jerome (345?-420): “If it is good for a man not to touch a woman, then it is bad for him to touch one, for bad, and bad only, is the opposite of good.”
John Chrysostom (349-407): “Amongst all the savage beasts none is found so harmful as woman.”
John Calvin (1509-64): “Thus the woman, who had perversely exceeded her proper bounds, is forced back to her own position. She had, indeed, previously been subject to her husband, but that was a liberal and gentle subjection; now, however, she is cast into servitude.”
Based on quotes like these, the attitude and beliefs form the teachings regarding the female gender. The complementarian role have become more “politically” correct, but nevertheless, the evidence of abuse is overwhelmining. The age old excuse, “if she would just submit,” I would treat her better.” Personally, for me it will be very interesting when such a person stands before our Lord and say to Him, Lord, she wouldn’t submit.”
I think God’s answer is going to be something like this: “You mean to tell me that you failed to love your wife as I did you, and so you abused, betrayed, and persecuted her?”
So Luther not only hatred Jews but women.
Where did you find all these quotes?
Quite different from how Jesus loved the women in his life.
In my studies concerning the history of women in the church, I kept on hand some of the quotes mentioned. You can find them in the writings of these men, as well. They may have been great theologican but I think they really missed the mark when it came to women. Luther missed the mark entirely on women and Jews. That is why it is so important for to search the scripture and to find out more about the person doing the teacing or writing a commentary. For instance, Eugene Peterson wrote the paraphrase: “The Message,” and many evangelical will quote from it, but few know that his is a liberal and is Unitarian. Which can and does put a whole other spsin of things.
These church Fathers’ attitude towards women was not formed as a result of reading Scripture, but rather Scripture was interpreted from man’s perspective formed by cultural and society attitude and beliefs instead.
No, not by a long shot, Hannah——Jesus showed the way—church Father’s just chose to ignore it, and put their own spin on it instead.
sorry, haven’t had my coffee yet.
In my studies concerning the history of women in the church, I kept a collectionon of the quotes mentioned. You can find them in the writings of these men, as well. They may have been great theologians, but I think they really missed the mark when it came to women. Luther missed the mark entirely on women and Jews. That is why it is so important all Christians to search the Scripture and then to do the research to find out more about the person doing the teaching or writing a commentary, to determine the what, how, when, where and who they are basing their position upon. For instance, Eugene Peterson wrote the paraphrase: “The Message,” and many evangelical will quote from it, but few know that his is a liberal and is Unitarian. Which can and does put a whole other spin of things.
These church Fathers’ attitude towards women was not formed as a result of reading Scripture, but rather Scripture was interpreted from man’s perspective formed by cultural and society attitude and beliefs instead. Being so, it their opinion of Scripture is not done objectively or impartially. Instead, it is biased, prejudiced, and through a lens that may serve the predominating culture, while keeping one’s position secure within the ranks of acceptance among one’s own gender and peers.
No, not by a long shot, Hannah——Jesus showed the way—church Father’s just chose to ignore it, and put their own spin on it instead.
Wow – I had no idea there were so many women haters back in the day – - – well, I suppose they tried to keep that a secret when they were having sex with those creatures – OY!
Which reminds me of Douglas Wilson’s quote from his book, Fidelity: What it Means to be a One-Woman Man
“When we quarrel with the way the world is, we find that the world has ways of getting back at us. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.“
Linda,
A few yrs ago, I shared some of the translation issues of the” Message” on another blog and was blasted by so many other believers who supported Peterson. In fact some were outraged because they felt many of his writings were inspiring to them as believers. The idea was that it didnt matter if someone was Buddist, New Ager, Catholic, etc…if they were inspired, and their faith was deepened, well, thats all that mattered. I guess it doesn’t matter what God instructs in His Word about “adding to” or changing his Word.
These same peopel were also open to many of the emergents. No one challenged them because we are to be tolerant of everyone. I was being attacked often for speaking out against these people.
Peterson, in the Message changed “Give us this day our daily bread” (part of Jesus’ prayer) to “Give us three square meals a day ” (or something to that effect).
Just that alone angered me, but apparently didn’t matter to others.
I once saw The Message in a church office on the bookshelf and I shared some of the “translation” issues I had with a secretary there..(that was years ago so I dont remember much now)…. and she basically looked at me as if I were from outer space.
Julie Anne,
Wow…so women are prey for men….
Julei Anne,
Interesting that I have watched the Duggar show a lot yrs ago, and I felt really sorry for the older girls who were basically moms to their younger siblings.
So while the dad is preying on mom, the kids can’t be kids but have to be moms themselves and what they have to look forward to is basically no life at all apart from being a baby making machine and teaching their kids to do the same.
What a horrible life–
Julie Anne
I wanted to ask you this after spending some time reading your blog and also looking at your former church’s website.
Was your Pastor a Master’s Seminary Graduate?
Was he from P. Macarthur’s church?
Is that him on the video yelling out (preaching) to the Jehovah’s witnesses?
Hannah @ 191
I know what you mean about “the look” you get when expressing your concern over Eugene Peterson’s paraphrase, “The Message.”
About six months ago, I was in a study that was teaching the group understand scripture. Overall, it was done well, that is until the guy started reading from “The Message. Since the group was interactive, I took liberty to state that this paraphrase needed to be burned and the proceeded to say why and to give the theological position that this person maintained. Oh my, the looks I got from the instructor. He then began to tell me that it was put in modern day language and made it easier for people to understand. I thought about that for a moment then responded to this by stating that that would be fine except it was putting a whole different spin on scripture led one into a more laxed view of the importance of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection as well as to make the Bible into books or morals and ethics, rather than that of a broken relationship with God as a result of sin and the need for repentance. I then told him that I didn’t agree with the sales pitch that Eugene Peterson used in order to sell a paraphrase totally authored by him, that is: that it, by token of using modern language would enable others to understand God’s Word better. My final two statement was this. First, how is that since the Holy Spirit is the one who draws us to the Cross and since He is the one that enables us to understand the Bible that we are now in need of such a translation when before it was published, people have been saved just fine without it? Secondly, I simply looked straight at this instructor and told him, “It’s a piece of crap and no one in this room needs to be exposed to it.” During the break, feeling that perhaps I had been abrupt, then smoothed the waters with him and he agreed to read some materials regarding liberalism and the sincere people like himself is actually being used to bring false doctrines and materials into the body of Christ.
Another occasion was shortly after Peterson’s book came out (I don’t like referring to it as a paraphrase, because in truth, it is junk) and I was in a bookstore, called the Bereans. When i spotted this on the shelf, I literally wanted to vomit. I didn’t but then started to speak to a young man who was thinking about purchasing a copy of it. I began a conversation about why he prefer that one over something else. He told me his pastor and friends had recommended it. I felt disgusted with his Pastor’s lack of discernment. I then stood there for about a half hour showing him other paraphrases and taught him the differences between liberal, evangelical, and fundamental Christianity and asking him how he had been a Christian and what church he went to and so on and so forth. End of story, he bought a study Bible I recommended with a Bible Handbook to help him out.
But then after he left, I walked directly to the store manager and asked speak to the owner to voice my concerns and to register a protest on behalf of the body of Christ. I got the “look” and was then told that they order what people will buy. And since this was selling like hotcakes, they were going to continue to sell it.
Here’s an interesting article on the comparisons of liberal, evangelical, and fundamental Christianity with historical data as well:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2011/05/what-is-the-difference-between-and-evangelical-and-a-fundamentalist/
Hannah – No, my former pastor did not attend Master’s College/Seminary, nor was he from MacArthur’s church. He loves MacArthur, however. I think most of the congregants had a MacArthur study bible (NKJV – because he would ridicule you if you had other versions, specifically NIV). He attends the Shepherd’s Conference each year and loves getting his picture taken next to celebrity pastors connected with MacArthur.
Yes, I’m sure that’s him yelling at Jehovah’s Witnesses. He went to their convention to proselytize and videotaped it so he could show others the “right” way to evangelize.
Re: Ken @184
That’s a tough position to be in.
I’m so sorry to hear of your serious health issues.
Your owning up to your choices is tough to do do, as well as refreshing. God promises to forgive us and to meet us at our point of need. All is not lost, as God can and will make good out of what you are putting into His hands.
The fact that you have not walked off from your decisions is admirable … the right thing to do. God will bless you for your heart repentance and showing that repentance through actions. I pray God will get a hold of your spouse. But even if she chooses to remain outside of a relationship with God, may He give you peace and provide for your needs as you honor God in how you are handling this.
Linda,
I can tell you many stories of Bible studies…
Have you ever attended BSF?…Lots of stories about that!
Your experiences sound very similar to mine.
Julie Anne,
Macarthur started with KJV-you can tell by listening to his sermons from the 80′s…..and is currently, and has been using the NASB for quite some time.
I had been using his NKJ study Bible for awhile and then his ministry sent me the NASB probably 6 years ago or so.
PS Julie Anne,
Do you agree with his method?
To yell at people without even having their attention? That was very uncomfortable to watch.
I do not think it’s appropriate to yell at people like that, Hannah. I also do not agree with going to places (malls, apartment complexes) where they have clearly marked “no solicitors” or where security guards have already warned you numerous times that you are not welcome.
I’ve been reading all the article out on D’ Sousa. They say that his wife has been attending a CC in San Diego for over 10 years. During the two years he and his wife was separated, she did not file for divorce. Yet, he just filed a few days ago, but not before introducing this other female as his fiancee to one of the conferences he was invited to speak regarding the documentar, “Obama 2015.”
My question is where is CC while this was going on? For someone who stated that he hope the reaction that would come about as a result of watching this film, is to come out saying that they didn’t know for the last four years who Obama really was. Yet, isn’t thia a projection? Also, to say that although he is American, his heritage is that of being born in India. Yet he used a similar statement pertaining to Obama’s muslim heritage, but made it appear as though Obama does not care for our country.
My question still remains: how is CC holding this man to an account and to warn him of God’s Word, should he continue to unbiblically put his wife away to marry another? With John Stewart, my own husband, and now D’ Sousa, I have to say that it does not appear as the church as we knew it or as it is written in God’s Word exists any longer. The leaven we have permitted to rise and to take possession of those things that we know we ought not turn a deal ear and a blind eyes to in the midst of our praise songs and mission reports. America is perishing right before our eyes and we are responsible for it. For the very things that we point our finger at has overtaken our churches and is practicing quite openly and apprently with the consent of the leadership. Regardless of teaching otherwise.
That the very things that CC and other churches are preaching are not being practiced, should be a wakeup call for everyone—great and small. For it is the body of Christ and its leadership that has brought it upon themselves.
In turn we fall prey to a message marketed by a person who obviously was not walking with the Lord and practicing deception as well. He should have taken the time he spent with this other woman and making this documentary to invest it instead in his wife and their marriage.
Mark 10:11
Here’s some recent stats on abuse from the Center for Disease Control.
http://www.true2ourselves.com/forum/christianity-family/6308-christian-domestic-abuse-hidden-church-disease.html
Christian Domestic Violence: The Hidden Church Disease
Recommendation for Churches:
This article, “Domestic Violence and the Church” written by Eagles Wings Global quoted Chuck Colson:
“In an issue of, Breakpoint, April 19, 2009, Chuck Colson lamented: “Tragically, studies reveal that spousal abuse is just as common within the evangelical churches as anywhere else. This means that about 25 percent of Christian homes witness abuse of some kind. In many Christian homes, domestic violence is a family value. How can any family be strong when one or more of its members live in fear of being hit, maimed, or killed in their own home by one of their own? Virtually no church, house of worship, or community is untouched by this act of sin.
The article goes giving the church and its leadership guidelines to set up a process to idenitfy and to provide intervention.
“Standing together, churches can become powerful first-responder networks that help create zero tolerance for intimate partner and dating violence throughout the communities they serve. First, pastors and their teams must learn to recognize the signs and, then, how to address domestic abuse without jeopardizing the abused person’s safety. Because virtually every church body has abused members within it, each should receive formal training for the pastoral and lay teams to fight domestic violence. Every church body needs to identify the resources in their community that serve the needs of abused persons and become an active part of that support network.
What Is the Church’s Responsibility?
Help Prevent Domestic Violence: Give a “Correct Reading of Scripture”
Often, men who abuse their wives use the Scriptures (for example, “women submit to your husbands”) as a justification for their abuse. This is sin, and pastors need to confront this head-on. The church needs to replace this lie with Christ’s view of marriage. Teach the true meaning of “Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church” (Ephesians 5:25). Tell your church that nowhere in the Bible does God give men the right to hit their wives, or vice versa. Verbal abuse hides itself in the submission and headship message. This is a SIN. Any view of marriage that does not emphasize love and respect between husbands and wives is a misrepresentation of Scripture. As leaders in the church, the pastoral team has a responsibility to teach these truths, both in premarital counseling and in sermons”
http://www.eagleswingsglobal.org/domestic-violence-and-the-church.html
http://www.ncdsv.org/images/LLCHD_ScriptureWheels.pdf
DOMESTIC ABUSE INTERVENTION PROJECT
202 East Superior Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55802
218-722-2780
Developed by Jeri Gray-Reneberg, M.Div., for the Lincoln-Lancaster County Health Department; Modeled upon the “Power and Control” and “Equality” Wheels, Duluth Domestic Abuse Intervention Project.
Here’s a breakdown of what a Narcisist Parent looks like. I was also thinking about how often times, an institution, such as a church that will be structured as to attract narcissists. In turn the narcissist leadership will frame their salvation message to make themselves appear to be concerned for their flock (children). There appeal will be to younger people and those coming out of difficult situations. Loyalty from these followers is required in such a way that exemplifies the Narcissist Parent. Churches structure in this way will surely draw Narcissist and Psychopaths into the fold. Their ability to work their way into the inner circles is uncanny, as most do not understand this type of person and how well they are able to be duplicitous to gain favor to enable them to gather their own flock to receive the honor and glory they long after. When the church organization does not permit questions to be asked, nor required accountability within its leadership by those that follow them, then it is most difficult to breakdown or break through the denial that takes place among those who until it is too late, realize how they have been falsely recruited an led. The fallout from is as destructive as any that can be found in a family that parent (s) were narcissistically oriented.
In an Internet site: Lightshouse.org, “The Narcissist Parent” tells us:
http://www.lightshouse.org/the-narcissistic-parent.html#axzz2B9GsQWlp
“Narcissists make deplorably bad parents. They are too focused on themselves to find children anything but an annoyance or a way to increase admiration and power. Many narcissists become parents either by accident or for some ill-thought out self-serving purpose.
Narcissists have two faces — the one they wear in public, and the one they wear at home. Only those close to the narcissist have any idea there is more than one face. And the narcissist’s children know best of all, because children – those who have the least power – are the ones the narcissist allows him or herself to be the least guarded around. A frequent frustration of children of narcissists is that everyone else thinks their mother or father is the most wonderful person ever, while at home their children suffer in silence with their parent’s tantrums, disinterest and put-downs — this is clearly NOT the most wonderful person if you truly know them — not even close.
Narcissistic parents view and treat their children only as extensions or reflections of themselves. They see their children the way an advertiser sees a sign by the side of the road – as something to put their name on and use to build themselves up, or as something someone else is responsible for that they can ignore if they aren’t interested.
Some narcissistic parents are controlling and engulf their children. Others simply ignore their children and wish they would go away. However, all narcissistic parents fail to treat their children as authentic individuals who have their own unique characteristics and needs. Narcissists treat their children as mere blank screens for projecting their own internal “movies” onto.
There are narcissistic parents who deny their children’s existence by insisting their children be and do what THEY want, and there are those who deny their children’s existence by simply ignoring their children altogether. (Many narcissistic parents do both alternately, depending on which circumstances serve them best.)
Because narcissists’ families are centered around the whims and wishes of a truly self-centered parent, they are highly dysfunctional and do not allow children to question the parent or express their needs. Most narcissists treat their children badly in a few key ways — emotional abuse, excessive parental control and parental neglect are all typical of narcissistic parents.
Narcissists cannot see their actual children and do not accept their needs. The narcissistic father who looks at his son and sees not an active, athletic little boy who is brilliantly gifted in sports and outdoor activities who needs more playtime, but an inanimate lump of clay he will shape into a doctor to brag about is just one of many examples of narcissistic parenting. (The reverse is often true as well; whatever the parent values takes priority.) The narcissistic mother who criticizes and hides behind a veneer of martyrdom when her child needs her support is another common manifestation of a narcissistic parent.
Narcissists typically treat their children as if they’re not good enough, and yet when the child does do well, the parent will either ignore and deny the event or take all the credit for it. (A common exception to the general rule of being treated as inferior is the treatment of the family “golden child”, whom the narcissistic parent will treat as exceptional, superior and entitled.)
It’s not uncommon for narcissists to be somewhat more agreeable as parents when their children are younger and easier to control. Many children of narcissistic parents report that their parents weren’t as emotionally abusive when the children were young preschoolers – or were pre-adolescents. Some narcissists pay plenty of attention to small children, who make excellent captive audiences that narcissists find fun to impress and manipulate, only to completely turn away from (or turn against) those same children in later years. However, some narcissists dislike all children on the whole and have no interest in them at any age. To these narcissists, all children are viewed as nothing but an annoyance.
Narcissists don’t like to be questioned and don’t want to deal with children who can stand up for themselves. It’s common for some narcissistic parents to become more abusive toward their children when the children reach the age of reason (about 7 years old) or when the children enter into puberty, which many of these parents find very psychologically threatening.
Adult children of narcissists typically describe their parents as mean, phony, self-absorbed, judgmental, dishonest, immature and manipulative. Click here for more…”
More here: http://www.lightshouse.org/the-narcissistic-parent.html#ixzz2B9KFk5Ic
So what is abuse:
Dealing With the Abuser – Part 2
http://www.sermonaudio.com/
Pastor Jeff Crippen | Christ Reformation Church.
How do we idenitfy the wolves, the predators, the abusers. The good news is they are all alike when it comes how they are able to do what they do: “because they can.” Remember that folks, it is because they know we don’t know, and we are easily persuaded to believe that which our own eyes have seen and our own ears have heard to be otherwise. As a Christian and part of a much larger body of Christ, we must, in we are going to proetect ourselves, our family and our church must come to terms how the wolves, predators, and abuser count on our gullibility, vulnerabilityies, and desire to not thing the worse of such, “less we be called divisive or gossipers or slanderers.” Unless we make a concertive effort in understanding how these wicked types operate, they will by nature of their narcissistic oriented desires (power, control, adulation, and attention), edge their way into leadership roles, It can only happen, because, we in our lack of being informed we want to put reason for what they do in terms of a normal human being, when in fact, what they do and why they do these things is not normal, but rather comes from the very pit that they will dwell, should their conscience become so seared, that even if they wanted to, they could not repent. Remember, church discipline is a good thing for those who have been offended, as well as for the offender. First it protects of one harmed. In turn, if the offender is not willing to bear the fruits of Godly repentance, then by causing them to leave the church, God can used the world of Satan to hopeully convict this one to repent and to make the amends necessary to enable reconcilation to take place. Anything less than this is enabling the offender and revictimizing the victim, while putting the body in harms way even further.
1 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)
5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1 Corinthians 6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The Five Best Friends of the Abusive Man [or Pastor]
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/the-five-best-friends-of-the-abusive-man
Truly abusive men are out for themselves. These are the narcissists and sociopaths who walk among us in plain clothes. Abusive men rely on these five strategies to gratify their needs ahead of or at the expense of their partner:
1. Denial
Even with fingers caught in the cookie jar, abusive men are apt to outright deny wrongdoing. I didn’t do that. That’s not what you saw! This is quite crazy making for the women who live with them. These women are left questioning their own perceptions, seeking to resolve the cognitive dissonance between their experience and their partner’s description of what appears as an alternate reality. Bottom line: If you experience something with your own senses, don’t question yourself and don’t take your partner’s bunk.
2. Distortion
Distortion differs from denial in that while some truths are admitted to, they are manipulated to suite the abuser’s point of view. With distortion, they can turn a lie into a plausible truth: I may have done such and so, but I was just joking around. Because they rely on a half lie, the abusive man can be more difficult to hold accountable. The partner who is subject to this form of manipulation is apt to give the abuser multiple chances, feeling the need to have absolute certainty before they can really catch the abuser at this game. Bottom line: Don’t let him play games with your mind. If it smells bad, it is bad.
3. Deflection
The abuser that uses deflection never addresses any issue put to him. Rather, he is apt to barrage you with a host of other issues to throw you off his scent. He will make anything other than himself the issue and will be on it like a junk yard dog on a bone. What are you blaming me for? You know your mother doesn’t like me. Quit listening to her and we would be all right. She’s the problem between us! Don’t let yourself be misguided. Stick with the facts and continue to hold the abuser accountable. Don’t let him throw others under the bus to save himself.
4. Deception
Abusive men like to get away with whatever they can. The tactics include sneaking, stealing and lying. These are the guys who will tell you they are out bowling when having a sexual meet-up or say they are working late when out with the boys. As long as they don’t get caught, they continue to lie. Catch them in a lie and they are apt to deny, distort or deflect. How many lies do you have to catch your partner in before you get the message; this is an abusive man. No solid relationship can be built on lies.
5. Denigration
Denigration is a verbally violent tactic of the abusive men. These are put-downs that are meant to cause their partner to feel bad. To the degree they can make their partner feel bad, they elevate their own status. These men will demean and/or blame you for any issue originating with them. This kind of abuse is particularly dangerous to a women’s self-esteem. Once you accept that you are a lowly dog, he’s got full control of you and will use you up and spit you out when finished.
Sadly, abusive men live among us and what’s worse; they can hide like wolves in sheep’s clothing. They can appear charming and they will try to work their way into your heart. They seek to ingratiate themselves to you. However, once in, they’re out to exploit. Try and thwart them and they rely on their five best friends to hold power so they can continue to win their way for their own gratification.
If your partner uses any of these strategies or combination of strategies on you, see what you can do to help yourself. The likelihood of changing the truly abusive man is limited. Your local women’s shelter would be a good first place to seek counseling or a referral to other community resources.
Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
Please keep in mind that although the offender may speak calmly while denying what they have been accused while the victim is being quite emotional and having difficulty expressing the offenses committed, the offender will frequently use this to turn the table to make it look as though the victim is not of sound mind. The truth is, the victim is being very normal in light of such horrenous traumatization wrought by a person who is attempting gaslight, to scapegoat, and to discredit the person they have harmed. This can happen in the home and in the pulpit, as well as other settings that has anything to do with the use and misuse of authority and power. The victim is reacting normally in light of the abnormal person who has done the harm. Be it to one person or a whole congregation.
Regarding the Laws Mandating Pastors and members of Clergy Reporting of Abuse in the state of California:
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/11166.html
Just wanted to draw the attention over this topic for those who need to know more about abuse and domestic violence. Please keep in mind that the same dynamics that occurs in the home also can be applied to abuse and corruptions in organizations, such as church, government, and an enitity, such as a political party and other interest groups.
Many times on this blog there has been speculations on why it is that a person being abuse does not leave. And some has stated that they do not believe that they were be abused, otherwise they would have left. For those, I would say that unless you understand the psychological games played with these victims, you cannot understand that a person becomes paralyzed on many levels, people do not understand the mindset of a Narcissist/Psychopath, and so when attempting to get help, it is often difficult to obtain the protection and the resources needed to get out as well as to keep oneself and their children from being harmed physically, professionally, and psychologically. It is a long difficult road due to many faulting the victim instead of supporting and assisting them in every step they take to get out and to stay out.
Here’s a video to increase awareness among the abused and the onlooker, as well as, for those who want to help, but may be missing the mark.
http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_morgan_steiner_why_domestic_violence_victims_don_t_leave.html?source=facebook#.UTJqdJ2mhCZ.facebook
Doing a background check can help if there is a record of such offenses. But when you are dealing with someone that is of the Cluster B Personality Disorder, do not deceive yourself. You may think you are a good judge of character because of x, y, or z. And you may be most of the time, but when dealing with a Narcissist/Sociopath/Psychopath, you are seriously mistaken, and taken for a ride. You are in fact being exploited to enable this person to victimized and to use you to help them to perpetrate the abuses.
http://www.remnantxradio.com/apps/blog/is-your-pastor-a-sociopath-by-jeremy
Read this, post it, share it, and read it again and again. The Bible tells us about these things, yet somehow, we want to think that, not in my church they do not exist. Church is the perfect place for them act out their abuses and corrupted mindset.
Here’s a good article on wicked shepherds and religious sociopaths. You can apply these characteristics to those in the congregation who prey on others and for those who are abusive towards their family members, yet seemingly beyond approach to everyone else.
Remember, this type of person also meets the criteria as being Narcissistic Personality Disordered. Also, please understand that not all who are the NPD are Sociopaths, but all Sociopaths are NPD, as well. It is also a matter of degrees on the continuum and what melieu they are acting out or acting in their personality defense modes.
The sociopath can be quite dangerous and will use anyone and anything to destroy another person if they think they will be exposed. Unfortunately, there is a high probability of having Narcissist and Sociopaths in the congregation seeking or pursuing, and ultimately obtaining leadership roles. Particularly when their is little or no accountability among the leadership by the congregants and vice versa.
This person will thrive on power, control and attention. They can be very sadistic while looking as if they are beyond reproach and walking in the Lord. They can be and often are quite sadistic while giving an appearance to others that they care about an individual that they have abused. they will use gaslighting techiques to create situations then make it look as though the situation is all in the mind of the abused. They exploit, recruit, and will use others as proxies to silence those that would seek to expose them and will create divisions and smokescreens to distract and make the victim appear as though they are the one that have been victimized instead.
As mentioned, as long as those who are in Christ remain passive and ignorrant of these things, church discipline cannot be adequately administered. I realize that most are counting on the rapture and most are pre trib who come to this site. But let me ask you this, do you know at what point the pre-trib begins. For if you are not able to stand up against corruption, evil, and abuse in such has been shared on this site and that you know that you have witnessed, how on earth do you think you will stand up against even greater testings of your faith? What more, if you can not stand up for those who are abused, then who will be there to stand up for you. There is an apostasy that is in place in the “church” today. It is the beginning of what we have learne from what Jesus has told us about. All thoughout the Bible, God has shown us what the leaven is and what constitute wrong doing against one another and unto Him. He has provided His son to bear witness to these things and He has sent the Holy Spirit to teach us and to convict us, not just to repent and to walk in obedience to Him, but also to exercise that obedience by not permitting such things to go on that should not even be a part of the church, but that is due to what we have permitted to go on for far too long. It is not good enough to tell others that they should not do this or that. For if they persist, and you remain silent then their blood is held to your account as well as the sin is as if you did it to the least of these, yourselves.
Perhaps, you think you are saved, but are not and need to repent and put away those things such as Paul spoke of for instance, in 1 Cor. 5:5-6:9, including taking a brother or sister to court particularly when you know darn well you are at fault. You know the difference between right and wrong and even though you may lack empathy to care about how your choices affects the well being of another, you are still without excuse and will be held to an account, in this life or on the Day of the Lord when He comes to judge the quick and the dead.
My People perish due to lack of knowledge (fear of the Lord and the love of sin).
Unfortunately, if you are a narcissist/sociopath/addictive mindset, it will be even more difficult for you to come to terms with this. Not because you can’t but because you won’t and it’s tough when you could care less unless it has to do with losing the false image that you worship and adore. Do I feel sorry for these—no, not at all, for I know only too well what drives them to do the things that they do and why. Will I rejoice with the angels should any of them bear/sow a true repentant heart—you betcha, I will.
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/areligioussociopath.html
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/areligioussociopath.html
Here’s a good article on wicked shepherds and religious sociopaths. You can apply these characteristics to those in the congregation who prey on others and for those who are abusive towards their family members, yet seemingly beyond approach to everyone else.
Remember, this type of person also meets the criteria as being Narcissistic Personality Disordered. Also, please understand that not all who are the NPD are Sociopaths, but all Sociopaths are NPD, as well. It is also a matter of degrees on the continuum and what melieu they are acting out or acting in their personality defense modes. At the same time, make no mistake, no matter where they may fall on this continuum at any given time, they are still being manipulative, treacherous, and exploitative to gain and to maintain control and power over others, while remaining unaccountable themselves.
The sociopath can be quite dangerous and will use anyone and anything to destroy another person if they think they will be exposed. Unfortunately, there is a high probability of having Narcissist and Sociopaths in the congregation seeking or pursuing, and ultimately obtaining leadership roles. Particularly when their is little or no accountability among the leadership by the congregants and vice versa.
This person will thrive on power, control and attention. They can be very sadistic while looking as if they are beyond reproach and walking in the Lord. They can be and often are quite sadistic while giving an appearance to others that they care about an individual that they have abused. they will use gaslighting techiques to create situations then make it look as though the situation is all in the mind of the abused. They exploit, recruit, and will use others as proxies to silence those that would seek to expose them and will create divisions and smokescreens to distract and make the victim appear as though they are the one that have been victimized instead.
As mentioned, as long as those who are in Christ remain passive and ignorrant of these things, church discipline cannot be adequately administered. I realize that most are counting on the rapture and most are pre trib who come to this site. But let me ask you this, do you know at what point the pre-trib begins. For if you are not able to stand up against corruption, evil, and abuse in such has been shared on this site and that you know that you have witnessed, how on earth do you think you will stand up against even greater testings of your faith? What more, if you can not stand up for those who are abused, then who will be there to stand up for you. There is an apostasy that is in place in the “church” today. It is the beginning of what we have learne from what Jesus has told us about. All thoughout the Bible, God has shown us what the leaven is and what constitute wrong doing against one another and unto Him. He has provided His son to bear witness to these things and He has sent the Holy Spirit to teach us and to convict us, not just to repent and to walk in obedience to Him, but also to exercise that obedience by not permitting such things to go on that should not even be a part of the church, but that is due to what we have permitted to go on for far too long. It is not good enough to tell others that they should not do this or that. For if they persist, and you remain silent then their blood is held to your account as well as the sin is as if you did it to the least of these, yourselves.
Perhaps, you think you are saved, but are not and need to repent and put away those things such as Paul spoke of for instance, in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 5:4-6:9, including taking a brother or sister to court particularly when you know darn well you are at fault and you have put a spin on the truth to win, rather than to be reconciled with the one that you have harmed. You know the difference between right and wrong and even though you may lack empathy to care about how your choices affects the well being of another, you are still without excuse and will be held to an account, in this life or on the Day of the Lord when He comes to judge the quick and the dead. Stop making excuses for yourself and expecting others to minimize the wrong or to water down God’s Word. That too, is an offense to the Cross.
By the way when someone tells you they feel oppressed or being subjugated, they are not lying—get a clue and let loose in your need to be in control of them. You wouldn’t like it, if Jesus did this to you, therefore, don’t put that burden on anyone else.
My People perish due to lack of knowledge (fear of the Lord and the love of sin).
Maude, there was a similar comment made prior to this one, but it cited 2 reference so was hung up. Please delete it:
Uriahisaliveandwell
May 6, 2013 @ 3:54
Note: have tried to submit this, may copy twice. If so, please delete one of them, as well as, the comment noted in the above.
Caution: This a long post. You may want to just search for the article by Stout and the Reverand CJ Connor.
The Characteristics of a Religious Sociopath
Dr. Martha Stout ponders the question: “Could it be that all of the world’s greatest human tragedies are attributable to only 4% of the human population?” I think about the fact that most of the destructive socio-political movements in the American Church are pushed by a miniscule minority of voices who are well organized into national voting blocks. They in no way represent the faith and belief of the majority of Christians, but have found their way into the halls of power. Here are some characteristics of the sociopathic personality that Stout outlines in her book, “The Sociopath Next Door.”
1) Despite their ability to know and distinguish good from evil, they suffer from a total lack of conscience and can do anything at anytime to hurt and harm another. In the church, this is usually manifested in destroying the ministries of people they disagree with. Black-listing pastoral candidates and pastors, for example, that don’t agree with the top leadership’s social agendas in the Mainline Church, is common. There are stories of Bishops and pastors that have undermined ministries, broken up marriages, leveled serious false charges against those that disagree with them, and taken and sold off congregational property to “win” their agendas with no remorse for the hurt, carnage, and damage they cause to others.
2) The Sociopath is unable to develop any kind of true, loyal attachments to people. This inability to be genuinely connected to others renders their experience of life bland, colorless, boring, and tedious. Consequently, they turn to power, not love and relationship, as the primary motivational factor for their lives. The sociopath seeks to gain power through which she can find some sense of connection to humanity by causing the suffering of others. The more she is able to make another suffer or hurt, the greater her sense of personal power, and the more exciting and invigorating life becomes. Stout says that the motivation for self aggrandized power is so strong in the sociopath that many of them work hard to place themselves in leadership positions because the authority of an office or position gives the sociopath the tools and avenues she needs to both feed and fuel her mental illness.
3) You can not judge or pick out a sociopath by their appearance. They look well put together, often charming, and are consumate actors. This is why they are masters at getting regular, normal, healthy people to provide aid and support to their mischief and abuses. Stout writes, “In a confusing irony, conscience can be rendered partially blind because people without conscience use, as weapons against us, many of the fundamentally positive tools we need to hold society together- empathic emotions, sexual bonds, social and professional roles, regard for the compassionate and the creative, our desire to make the world a better place, and the organizing rule of authority. And people who do hideous things do not look like people who do hideous things. There is no “face of evil.”… We try, consciously or tacitly, to judge a person’s character by his or her appearance, but this book-by-its-cover strategy is ineffective in nearly all cases. In the real world, the bad guys do not look the way they are supposed to.” In the American Church, for example, the Mainline denominations generally appeal to all of the things listed above, and in fact we see the Mainline church working very hard to keep the focus on things like “sexual bonds” and “healing the world”- causes that draw people in while their leaders are busy working on a whole agenda of evil things.
4) Sociopaths tend to be inordinately focused on sexuality and are often hypersexual. The more taboo the expression of sexuality, the better for the sociopath. Anybody following the news coming out of the Mainline denominations knows that the religious leaders have put most of their energy the last few years talking about all manner and form of sex. This obsessive preoccupation with sex, and with normalizing socially unacceptable sexuality, is the mark of a sociopath.
5) Sociopaths have no intervening sense of obligation to other people. They will betray whoever is convenient at the moment. They can’t maintain healthy and stable relationships primarily because sociopaths view people as disposable when their usefulness to their needs or agendas runs out, particularly if those people won’t help them with their mischief and abuse anymore. The people who were their “best friends” yesterday become their latest project of abuse, harrassment, and emotional torture the next.
6) Sociopaths are not the most conscientious of workers, but they know how to make a splashy entrance from time to time, or initiate some new project, to maintain the appearance of normalcy- to keep people from finding out about their sociopathy. One Bishop I read about is up for re-election after nearly six years in office. He worked a ruthlessly destructive and hurtful agenda during his tenure in office. Six months before the denomination was due to elect a new presiding Bishop, all of his divisive projects and agendas became suddenly quiet and he made a splashy show by introducing an initiative to get the denomination to read their Bibles and learn about evangelism. For 5 1/2 years these two things were not anywhere on his priority list, but conveniently just before an election, they became important. Sociopaths know that most people will be none the wiser, and after the election, this man will most certainly promptly go back to socially engineering the Church in his image. We should also think about the fact that the Mainline denominations have so dumbed down their theological curriculum and requirements for pastors in seminary that they have become an easy place for the typical sociopath to sneak into influential positions of power and authority. The Mainline Seminaries of today have become the perfect sanctuaries for sociopaths who are looking for an easy ride to power.
7) Sociopaths lack remorse. They have absolutely no sorrow or shame for the things they do wrong and the ways they hurt other people. In fact, more than lacking in remorse, they often justify what they do- if not externally, at least internally. Their efforts at self-justification usually involve whole other layers of hurting others as they lie and falsely report about them to justify their sociopathic behavior.
Sociopathy is incurable. Even if it were curable, sociopaths almost never want to be cured. They look at people who allow an overriding sense of obligation mitigate their responses to situations and consider them total fools. Sociopaths can oftentimes be heard as describing the conscience that others possess as a weakness and an impediment to personal power and progress. All of the Mainline denominations have adopted these ideas amongst their leadership in their “church-based organizing” models, and have sent people to week long brain washing sessions to inculcate them with the cut throat, self-interest focused world of sociopathy. The skills people “learn” there have become the new virtues of the Mainline, and the behavior that sociopaths routinely engage has in many parts of the country become highly regarded and honored by church folks.
9) Sociopaths want you to pity them. In some strange and perverted twist, lacking the capacity to pity or empathize themselves, they know that pity is one of humanity’s greatest vulnerabilities and most of us believe the ability to pity is a part of what’s wonderful about people. We become totally vulnerable in the face of somebody that we pity. The sociopath knows that once he has your pity, he has you in his power and control, able to trick or convince you of virtually anything. Stout says, “The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.” Consider ALL of the arguments you hear about maintaining and codifying the newly revised position and teaching of the Mainline churches on sexuality. The crux of the discussion about gay marriage, and practicing homosexual pastors, for example, always seeks to win your pity. Another church leader I know fashions herself as the eternal underdog that the whole world is against, invoking the pity factor and drawing people in to assist her in constructing her scaffold of sociopathy through which she exercises her authority in destructive and egregious ways, leaving a writhing path of pain and desolation in her wake. Expelled from her denomination because they caught on to her, she has no problem quickly moving on and drawing others right into a new sociopathic scheme. Another national leader is the master at putting on the pitiful face and drawing sympathy from the crowds as he refers to those who disagree with his radical socio-political agendas as persecutors. He tops it off by comparing his “persecution” to the suffering of Christ. When talking about those who disagree with his support of a whole number of social justice agendas, he reminds his listeners that “We are sharing in Christ’s persecutions.” When the shoe is on the other foot, however, Sociopaths have no regard or empathy for the other, and will ruthlessly attack those who once pitied them or were loyal to them, often in subterfuge so they can maintain their cover. There are some good Church leaders out there, I can’t deny that. But if 20% of your top religious leaders are sociopathic, what does that mean for the identity of your denomination? What can we do when the vast majority of the 80% of the leaders who aren’t sociopathic have been totally and completely bamboozled and conscripted into the army of the sociopaths? What happens when the ELCA, the ECUSA, or the PCUSA organically takes on the characteristics and identity of the sociopaths that lead them? If the sociopathic identity is pure clinical evil, then how can we remain Christian in these denominations without a “purging of the temple” so to speak? And so, finally, young people who thirst for a genuine, real relationship with God are fleeing the Church for other options- because a denomination that has taken on the identity of its sociopathic leaders has along with them lost its ability to be genuinely, really, in relationship with God. Others still within the Church, who also thirst and hunger after righteousness, are dying on the vine of the superficial spirituality that sociopathic religious leaders can fashion at best. They are moving towards schism and rebirth to reclaim the true humanity that their denominations have lost.
Rev. CJ Conner -
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-am-fishead-are-corporate-leaders-psychopaths/
Uriah, wow so devastating and I for one know the claws, wiles of this type of person. One who seems so charming, intelligent, family man, loving loving pastor, why he’d never hurt a fly!
Are psychopaths mentally ill, crazy.
Do they know the difference between right and wrong. What is the difference between sociopaths and psychopaths.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4d4euAOq7s
What is Empathy?
4 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5jrUg_kXjY
By the way, when I posted the “very” long post by Spout and the Reverend, I was not doing so to promote the Reverand’s take on issues concerning political or sexual preference issues, but rather on the points that Spout had outlined on sociopathy/psychopathy.
At the same time though, I don’t think we can ignore how rampant sexual promiscuity, child abuse, and domestic violence (physical and other wise) is in the church, but virtually ignored, leaving it to the legal system to address instead. Which is most unfortunate as it only tells those who commit such things, that as long as they are not prosecuted, then they can continue committing these offenses, while lifting their hands up praising the Lord, shoulder to shoulder with those whom claims to be Christians.
” and they will know that we are Christian by our love.”
Real love is not blind. It is a choice and it is active. It hates evil and exposes it. It is not compromised, nor is it traded off for conveninence, not to the higest or prettiest bidder. It is faithful and it is committed to that which brings honor and glory to the Lord. Love risk being rejected in order to save that which is lost and to stand up against evil. To repent of such things is a form of godly sorrow and true love towards such who have been injured.
John ch. 8:12
(NKJV)
12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
4:37 minutes:
Empaths and Narcissists – What do they have in common?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Gw6OUVuwY
2 Corinthians ch. 6:14-18 (NKJV)
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”
Narcissist Personality Disorder, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths all practice these things.
Anyone who is cheating on their spouse (in any form, directly or indirecty, emotionally or sexually), leading a double -triple lifestle, false teachers, wolves, child abusers and those who would seek to control others by using the things of the Lord all practice these types of tactics. What more church leaders who choose to ignore this also practice such things using tactics to silence the flock and to avoid holding those to an account, including one another. Oftentimes, due to not wanting the numbers to go down thus decreasing the “giving units.”
So, yes in the church, it is about control, but also about the money. And if the men are the primary earners, why wouldn’t the leadership feed their egos and give the message that they are entitled to treat females and children in the manner that they do. Why wouldn’t they reinforce the idea that men have a corner of decision making – thus feeding into the curse given by the Lord to Adam and Eve (men will control their women), instead of preaching that all are free now and we are no longer under the curse, those who are in Christ. Why is it that CC does not have training on domestic violence and spiritual abuse? Because the Moses model cannot possibly withstand such scrutiny within its ranks, by the congregants, nor within them.
We can only be in the light if truth prevails and truth cannot prevail using these tactics and refusing to practice church discipline and transparency. We cannot hold anyone to an account, nor rid ourselves of spiritual abuse, domestic violence, child abuse, adultery, fornication, if we refuse to educate ourselves to even know what it is and how it evolves into such by the simplest of lies, that becomes such a part of “church” that we know longer no are intolerant of it, but rather boast of it instead.
6:18 minutes (interesting ad before the video, but can skip, if not interested)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwWBHRKFYCA
1 Corinthians ch. 5:11
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
I think the best one can do is to know who you are and when someone places doubt in your mind, understand that it is not you they are deceived, but rather it is the person and they are doing so to acheive a hidden agenda while covering the wrong doing and then distracting and causing you to appear not creditable, unbalanced, and toxic instead.
This is when the boundary is set into place. Simply, “that is not true, and I am really sad to know you are of that nature of a person who would practice such deception. I am really dissappointed in the choices you have made and are making, but I cannot control you. What I can do is to continue to be who I am in Christ and do as He has told me to do—that is, not to even eat with such as you are, a liar, a thief, a cheat, and one who has little or no respect for me. When you are ready to repent, bearing the fruit of that repentance–then maybe, we will have something further to discuss. Please have your pastor contact me, if and when you make the choice to do this—you have my email.” i shall miss the person you led me to believe that you were—-I am sad to find out otherwise.
You can write this down and read it off to them, if you would like. Send a copy to their pastor as well.
From:
When the Battle is for Subconscious—–The Bishop Maker
http://www.bishopmaker.com/?p=34
The Narcissist/Sociopath are emotional vampires and will demand that you reflect the false image they have created to gain attention, admiration, approval, and adoration. So whether you are a small child, a young girl or boy, a young adult (particularly appears to be the primary target) or an adult woman or man, you are not exempted from being targeted, exploited to be used to feed this false image and to sell out your very soul to that of a false god. They indeed are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And as long as they can sell you on not having church discipline and accountability within the ranks of leadership and among its congregants, they will be prime hunting grounds for other wolves and pseudo christians to rape and plunder and fleece the flock, causing much harm, destruction, and leaving many to leave the church altogether.
If you want to change this, insist on your entire church to gain regular training and education regarding domestic violence that also covers addiction/personality disordered/child abuse issues and problems. If the leadership refuses to do this, find a church that does or that is willing to do so. For your sake of all and for the glory and honor of all that is precious in the sight of the Lord.
Note: If you see a man or a woman come to church without his wife, insist on speaking to the absent spouse—-they may be, being abused. They may be like one who has shared on this blogsite. That is homeless, left to die on the street while passing off another as his wife, yet remaining legally and biblically married to one whom stands steadfast in the Lord and faithful to her marital vows.
By Audrey Barrick , Christian Post Reporter
June 5, 2007|3:59 pm
In a culture where sexuality and porn is now a part of everyday life, porn addiction in the church is escalating, according to a new survey.
http://www.covenanteyes.com/2008/03/18/major-christian-magazine-speaks-candidly-about-sexual-addiction-in-the-church/
When one is lusting after another, they must ask themselves why and how this affects their attitudes and belief towards their own gender and the opposite gender. Does it enable them to falsely believe they are entitled to objectify another person. How does it affect their ability to hear their loved ones ability to be heard and seen as being equal in Christ with them. If their partner was doing the same thing for the same reason, would they consider them to be trustworthy and dependable. Would they have confidence in the decisions they would make on their behalf and what the future challenges may bring. Would they ( you) feel secure or would you be afraid that one day, you will lose everthing because you know that this has changed you into someone who now hides and sneak around while leading a double life, while claiming to knowing and loving the Lord.
You know as well as I do that it does not have to be pornography. You also know you can get those addictive hits of pleasure from lusting after the young sisters and men in church. Fully clothed and ever so admiring towards those who are viewed as “being in love with the Lord.”
Perfect targets for those who are narcissist/sociopaths, by the way.
The saying: What would Jesus do? Sorry, there’s is no excuse, not if you are really in Christ. No matter what the 12 steps would like you to believe. Repent and get rid of whatever is hindering you from making right the wrongs you’ve committed against your spouse, not by throwing them under the bus and finding excuse to move on to the next one.
Sexual sin is rampant in our churches. Sexual sin is a form of domestic violence and child abuse. It is time we began to take our churches back from those who would cover up or ignore these things. One does not need to be an official “member” in a “church” to do so. For if you are in Christ, you are in the family in God and have a voice per 1 Corinthians, chapter 5. And if the “church” does not listen, leave it and find one that does protect the “true flock” from such dispicable, vicious, violent, disrespectable, duplicious, narcissistic, and evil practices.
Do not ever swallow the lie that this is normal. It is not. It is an abomination to the Lord, and it ought to be to you who are in the Lord as well.
Clinically speaking, all the above mentioned conditions can be traced back to faulty attachment and intimacy issues. God didn’t mean it to be this way and even if we had parents that may have harmed us that led us to seek out attachment and intimacy in psuedo forms, we still are held responsible as adults by the Lord. He said, “come to me who are laden and heavy burden and I will give you rest. He never told us to claim the cross and continue in these ways that prevents us loving others and be loved, as well. He told us to get rid of it and not give an excuse for not doing so. Some will need additional assistance in doing so, but by no means should it ever, ever be ignored or enable by those who are in the community of Christ.
For any who falls within these categories are only concerned for themselves and will prey on others within and outside of the church. They are predators and the reality that they live in, is of their vain narcissistic imaginations. Therefore, they are not there to be a friend or one who walks in the truth and obedience to God’s Word.
If possible they will pervert whatever is necessary to gain control and maintain the ruse. Read your Bibles beyond all the “feel good” messages. The Bible also teaches us, individuals such and these and tells us what we must do and how to do it and tells us that some of these cannot be handled with the message of love, but with a firmness with a stern warning of eternal hellfire, if they do not repent and bear that fruit of such.
For those who did not step out to support Alex in his efforts to be heard by the church—-hmmm. Yes, CC Pastors, in particular this is meant for you—-what sin do you have that you are sitting on that prevents you from having done this, to the least of thise: 3 little boys growing up under the pastorate, now men, standing up as such, brave, yet so wanting to know that you failed to do so then because they could not speak as a child, but now that they are men, what is your excuse for failing to do so. Except perhaps, sin resides in your camp as well?
Sociopaths, crying, sex and cooking
By Donna Andersen, Educator, Public Speaker, and Author on Sociopaths
In answering Judith’s questions, I’ll be talking in generalities. Everything may not apply in every single case, but usually the overall outline applies.
Sociopaths and emotions
Judith began by asking about sociopaths, emotions and empathy. Remember, sociopaths are not robots. They have some emotions, but their range of emotions is very narrow, and the emotions that they do show are not deep. Clinically, they are described as having “shallow affect.”
Sociopaths are certainly capable of anger, hatred and jealousy — many of us have seen scary displays of those emotions. But you may have also seen the mind-bending phenomenon of a sociopath flying into a rage, and then a few minutes later appearing totally calm, as if he or she hadn’t just yelled, screamed and threatened. That is evidence of the shallowness of sociopathic emotions, which enables them to turn emotions on and off like a light switch.
Sociopaths are also capable of being excited or happy, especially when they get something that they want. But they are not capable of emotions that require truly caring about the good and welfare of another person, such as sympathy and love.
Sociopaths know, however, that they have to appear to have emotions to fit into society, and to manipulate others to do what they want. So they are exceptionally good at pretending to care and pretending to love. Sociopaths are fabulous actors — many readers have told me that the sociopath they were with could have won Academy Awards.
Sociopaths and empathy
When it comes to the idea of empathy, whether or not sociopaths experience it depends on precisely how the word is defined. Here is what Dictionary.com says about “empathy:”
“the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.”
.According to this definition, there are two ways by which one person can empathize with the feelings, thoughts or attitudes of another:
1.“intellectual identification with”
2.“vicarious experiencing of”
Most of us on Lovefraud probably assume that empathy means vicarious experiencing of another’s feelings. Sociopaths certainly do not experience empathy in that way. When another person, especially their target, is upset, it doesn’t bother sociopaths in the least.
But some experts have argued that sociopaths are capable of intellectually experiencing empathy, and this has the perverse effect of enabling them to enjoy inflicting pain on others. That is why they can be so sadistic. Dr. Liane Leedom wrote about this in a prior Lovefraud article:
Sadism and warped empathy in sociopaths
This argument is interesting, but I think the common interpretation of empathy, meaning to feel another person’s emotions, is more widely understood. Therefore, it’s fair to say that sociopaths do not feel empathy as most people interpret the word.
Sociopaths and crying
So, after all this background information, when Judith asks about sociopaths and crying, the answer is simple: They are faking!
Many people have told me their sociopathic partners could turn the tears on whenever they wanted. Judith said the sociopath cried when she was leaving — a typical control tactic. My ex-husband started crying when he was “afraid he was losing me,” even though at that time he was cheating with multiple women.
When a sociopath cries, it is all about manipulation. As far as crying at sad movies as Judith mentioned — well, that particular sociopath has probably learned it is socially appropriate behavior. He wanted to appear to be caring, emotional and human in order to manipulate her.
Sociopaths and sex
Generally, sociopaths want three things in life: power, control and sex. Although they never lose the desire for power and control, sometimes they dispense with the sex. This may be especially true as sociopaths age. In many people, the physical capacity for sex decreases with age, and this does at time happen to sociopaths.
Sociopaths pursue sex for two reasons. The first, obviously, is to satisfy their physical desires. The second is to use sex as a tool to achieve other objectives. Sociopaths seem to know that if they can hook someone sexually, it helps them manipulate the target into providing whatever else they want.
Some sociopaths seduce a target sexually, and then intentionally withhold sex. Why would they do this? To increase power and control.
This is apparent in Judith’s email. She wrote:
He did watch porn at times which he used to tell me (made me feel bad at times) but I appreciated he was honest. He said sex is not in top 5 in a relationship for him … as porn sometimes is enough for him (single for a long time).
.Why would the guy tell Judith he was watching porn? To make her feel bad, which would give him more ammunition in manipulating her. And about preferring porn to real, live sex? Well, then he only has to be concerned with pleasing himself, and not a partner. That, of course, is a totally sociopathic attitude.
For more on the topic, read:
The truth about sex and sociopaths
A pornography addiction, by the way, is very damaging for the addict and real-life partner.
Caring and cooking
Sociopaths are quite capable of having interests, and perhaps Judith’s sociopath likes to cook. Still, why would he cook in the middle of the night? My guess is that it wasn’t romantic. He just got the urge to cook something and then did what he wanted to do, regardless of whether Judith wanted to eat—or preferred to sleep.
This leads me to mention another aspect of sociopathic acting. Frequently, sociopaths act as if they care, when in reality their caring behavior is only manipulation.
For example, some sociopaths start driving their targets around. This may seem chivalrous, but the sociopaths may actually by implying that their targets are bad drivers, which may lead to a sense of learned helplessness. The targets may feel that they no longer have the ability to do things for themselves, even if they were perfectly capable of the activities before.
Once you realize, or suspect, that someone is a sociopath, always look for the hidden agenda. When a sociopath engages in caring behavior, there is another objective. Nothing is done from the goodness of a sociopath’s heart, because there is no goodness in his or her heart.
It can be quite confusing in understanding the differences between the Antisocial, the Sociopath, and the Psychopath. All are Narcissists are their core. All are dangerous and some can be serial killers. Yet all are murderous in their own way, not ever have taking a life of another physically, but rather, economically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and sexually. Except for the Antisocial who is impulsive without constraints and easily caught in the act, it is most difficult to “catch onto” or “clue into” the others until a lot of damage has been done to a long line of people due to their inate ability to be such chameleons. However, you can guard yourself by:
1. When someone tells you they have been abused by them or not to trust them, pay attention.
2. When something seems “off” about them or a situation, pay attention.
3. When you begin to get the feeling, they are just like you—pay attention.
4. When they seem to “good” to be true —– pay attention.
5. When they tell you that everyone sins—therefore, pay attention
6. When they have that blank stare that appears to piercing at the same time–pay attention.
7. When they are constantly putting themselves in the middle of attention, using objects, animals, children, or even bible studies — pay attention.
8. When they appear to have a flat affect to situations that would warrant far different reaction, pay attention.
9. When the are one way one moment and in a blink of an eye another—pay attention.
10. Look at their spouse and children–do they have dark circles under their eyes—pay attention. It is from crying and not sleeping well. It can be from being abused.
Here’s an article that breaks down these types of pathological conditions. Remember, they look normal–more normal than the normal person at times. One way of determining if you are engaging with such an individual is to keep track of the event and behavior. Warning: be sure to keep records in a safe secure place, for your own safety. For when one of these think they may be on the fringes of being exposed they will seek to destroy you by ruining your life, your reputation, and your profession. Some will hire another to murder you and others will simply do themselves, if they think they can get away with it.
Most importantly to know is that if you are in a system that does not support victims against such people, that is, they are very aware of what constitutes abuse, then you can also be sure that there most likely such characters as these in the leadership, as well. In turn, there will be little transparency and accountability and if there is any, it is like the fox guarding the hen house instead. But if you are in a system that does practice open communication, transparency, and accountability and take serious the complaints of abuse from staff or church members, then you will have some support and protection is far more likely.
Keep in mind 1 in 4 woman, including spouses of church leaders and pastor are abused. Ask yourself if your church have “ever” openly dealt with these cases. And please do not believe for one second that your church simply does not have any who are being abused.
Print this out and review it —- if you are part of a church congregation — you will need it, sooner or later. As Paul has told us, there will be some who enters in to mislead, to rob, and to destroy your faith. They are indeed, Wolves in Sheep Clothing. Predators to children and adults alike. No matter how much you think you are a good judge of character—for these, you simply are being arrogant and prideful in thinking so. No offense intended.
http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/antisocial_sociopath_psychopath.html
Heres is a video on the more severe typr of Narcissist Personality Disordered person. It does contain brief drawings of David Berg materials introduced to his followers.
I think what is important to understand is that these types are among us and within the church. What more, it is important to understand they will pretend to care about the elderly, the children, when in fact they have a strong dislike towards them. They may become involved in ministries that focuses upon children and or the elderly to cover up how they really feel about them and or to enable them to victimized them indirectly or directly. This is just on example of what they do. By the way, they can be married, with or without children. This gives others the impression they are normal–it’s part of the props he uses to exploit everyone.
The point is—what we may call hypocritical is far worse than you can possibly imagine, unless you have been the target of such a person. It is most difficult for a victim to be protected by those in the church due to the appearance of what this personality disordered person have led you to believe. What more, if this person has managed to work themselves into the inner circle of leadership, he has only been able to do so because not enough people were aware of what abuse is and did not want to get involved. You bought into the facade and drank the kool aid, so to speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG4c97xXx84
The Narcissist (NPD) and his relationship with God
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xpreyXw1-E
This will be my last post of the subject. I think there is enough here to give everyone a basic understanding on these types of personality disordered persons.
My hope and prayer is that CC will understand that the Moses Model attracts and enables the PD.s. What more when there is a lack of training and education regarding domestic abuse and relies on the courts to settle things issues, they fail miserably in understanding that courts only address those cases that has not exceeded the statute of limitation and that have gone well past the point of the victim (s) already suffering abuse that is much harder to legally prove.
What this means is the PD’s knows exactly what they are doing and knows when, where, and how much they can do. But the church is in a position to protect those who are target, preyed upon, and exploited–murdered even without laying a hand upon the victim. That is, if there is training on domestic violence that would greatly enable the victim to be heard and not discredited, persecuted, then thrown under the bus or out into the streets to hide in order to protect themselves from the threats made upon their life by such a predator.
So brothers and sisters, wake up from your slumber and look deeper into the operation of how your church is governed. Put yourself in the place of the victim and ask yourself, does your church provide church discipline and just how much do they provide training and education on these issues? If they do not, listen to the message they are giving out. And then start asking questions and see what or how you are treated, particularly if you are a woman. Ask about how the offerings are managed. “Used for missions” is not an answer. Ask them to be specific. If they balk or bring you back to the same response. You are not in a healthy church. You are the church therefore, you do not need official membership to have a voice in these things. To think otherwise is a misuse of authority and you are being used.
From time to time the topic of divorce and remarriage has come up. And there are many opinions offered on what is and is not, acceptable or permissable in light of scripture. Some simply make the decision that since there is a “no-fault” divorce available, the ease of ending a marriage far exceeds that which may require us to bare up under that which may not be as satisfying as we think it ought to be. And others have divorce and remarried and wonder if they have lost the blessing of the Lord, and even if their new marriage is actually approved by the Lord. Some are told that as long as you repent, you’re home free. Not a problem, just go before the and confess your adultery, and move on. Others, say to put the adulterous marriage wife away by annulling the marriage and go back to the spouse you betrayed. Yet others, will tell you that you can’t go back once you marry someone else, but then another will tell you that since the marriage was not legitimate as you had no grounds to biblically divorce your spouse, therefore, although man’s law may have permitted this, God does not. So everyone has an opinion. And at the end, you either throw your hands and just get it over or—–you wait upon the Lord to show you clearly. Of course, you can’t do this if you are not born again, because without being born again, you will be waiting a very long time and since you can only sow to the flesh, you may move on, but regret it later. Then what, or you may move on and be as happy as two peas in a pod. But what about when the limerance wears off and trials and temptations comes into your life again—–and something or someone comes along to give you cause to wonder once again.
And in the case of biblical grounds, is it an automatic that you divorce, particularly if you have gone through much suffering and all your friends are telling you to move on. How do you explain to them that you don’t have a peace about doing this, for x,y, or z reason. But they wanting to see you happy again, encourage you to do this, even though your heart hasn’t been harndened against your erring or abusive spouse. Then what. Are there options. I mean, the only option is not divorce, is it? You don’t have to think of divorce in terms of being free to marry again, do you. I know the court papers will start out stating that by filing this paper and upon final dissolution you are free to marry again. According to who? Man, or God. And, are we to divorce in order to marry another? A lot of questions and no simple answers.
Here’s an article that I found well researched and studied on the subject. Hope it helps it sorting it all out.
http://www.thenarrowpath.com/ta_divorce.php
I think people make a huge mistake to tell others that just because a person may have biblical grounds for divorce therefore. I think is far more helpful to just be supportive by praying and checking in with them from time to time as they go through a process that hopefully will be guided by the Holy Spirit and all options will be considered.
Particularly when domestic violence involves certain PD’s types. Restraining orders are useless in these cases. And whether or not they or the PD initiates the divorce, 75% of attempted or successful murders are committed after the divorce. Divorce and restraining orders does not necessarily end the the abuse, but in fact can escalate it. Even when the abusive spouse may be with someone else.
And this is a huge reason why many women will not physically leave the relationship. For those that do, they know only too well that until their abuser is exposed and held to an account, they remain at minimum an emotional hostage in the mind of the PD. So please be careful to what you say to one who may be struggling through these issues. But always let them know they are valued and loved by the Lord, as well as other. In this, their existence will have been affirmed thus giving them strength.
This just in my area after a former bishop in the LDS was found to have sexual abused children, they removed him and are claiming, not that I know otherwise, to have reported him after they became aware. THis is a quote from church officials.
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has zero tolerance for abuse of any kind,” Kramer said. “Anyone who abuses a child is rightfully subject to both criminal prosecution and formal church discipline.
I will say that I had heard from a high up counselor at Focus on the Family years ago that church’s like cc are not the only places they get reports of child sexual abuse, he especially named LDS.
Olivia,
It’s good to know they include “formal church discipline.” Something that evangelical churches are sorely lacking in all areas of abuse, corruption, and other behavior mentioned in 1Corinthians 5:5-6:9.
Now if the LDS could just repent from the false doctrines they teach and know the real Jesus. and get rid of that rediculous book they place above the Bible.
In reading the linked article mentioned in #228, I am currently pondering the following:
” If divorce and remarriage (permitted under the law) are universally and without exception violations of moral righteousness, then how could God ever have permitted it—even “because of the hardness of heart”? In the law, which even the New Testament describes as “holy, just and good” (Rom.7:12), we never find God “permitting” murder, adultery, theft or blasphemy “because of the hardness of heart.” If divorce and remarriage are in every case immoral, as these other acts are, then God could never have given such permission, regardless how hard people’s hearts might have been!”
““Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matt.5:17). Jesus did not come to alter the moral standards of the law, nor to introduce new standards which were not equally valid in the Old Testament. Every one of the beatitudes is drawn from the Old Testament. Since all morality is merely a reflection of the character of God, which cannot change, it is impossible for morality to change.”
“He did not say, “You have heard that it was said to those of old time, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ but I say to you, ‘Commit adultery!’” Rather, He explained that there are ways to become guilty of this sin without actually touching a woman, but by merely looking at a woman to lust after her.
In saying these things, he was not creating a new ethic (Job had known this truth thousands of years earlier—Job 31:1). Jesus never changed one moral issue from the law. He merely expounded on the deeper implications of the law that had been neglected by His hearers and their teachers.
Thus we must avoid the mistaken notion that Jesus was now making divorce and remarriage universally sinful, though it was not so in the days of Moses. Rather, Jesus’ teaching on this, as on other moral issues of the law, should be seen as an expansion on the meaning of the law in Deuteronomy 24 (the passage that he quotes). What Jesus reveals is that the vague, undefined “uncleanness” that constituted grounds for divorce in Deuteronomy is to be identified with “fornication”— and nothing else (Matt.5:32).”
Now why on earth would Jesus tell us not to lust if as human being we are led to believe that this is impossible not to do? Because we have bought into a lie that society has taught us to believe and because we love the sin more than we love others and the Lord—That’s why.
Darn, got caught in moderation due to more than one citation.
So, I will repost and do the citation differently.
In reading the linked article mentioned in #228, I am currently pondering the following:
” If divorce and remarriage (permitted under the law) are universally and without exception violations of moral righteousness, then how could God ever have permitted it—even “because of the hardness of heart”? In the law, which even the New Testament describes as “holy, just and good” (Rom.ch. 7:12), we never find God “permitting” murder, adultery, theft or blasphemy “because of the hardness of heart.” If divorce and remarriage are in every case immoral, as these other acts are, then God could never have given such permission, regardless how hard people’s hearts might have been!”
““Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matt.ch. 5:17). Jesus did not come to alter the moral standards of the law, nor to introduce new standards which were not equally valid in the Old Testament. Every one of the beatitudes is drawn from the Old Testament. Since all morality is merely a reflection of the character of God, which cannot change, it is impossible for morality to change.”
“He did not say, “You have heard that it was said to those of old time, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ but I say to you, ‘Commit adultery!’” Rather, He explained that there are ways to become guilty of this sin without actually touching a woman, but by merely looking at a woman to lust after her.
In saying these things, he was not creating a new ethic (Job had known this truth thousands of years earlier—Job 31:1). Jesus never changed one moral issue from the law. He merely expounded on the deeper implications of the law that had been neglected by His hearers and their teachers.
Thus we must avoid the mistaken notion that Jesus was now making divorce and remarriage universally sinful, though it was not so in the days of Moses. Rather, Jesus’ teaching on this, as on other moral issues of the law, should be seen as an expansion on the meaning of the law in Deuteronomy ch. 24 (the passage that he quotes). What Jesus reveals is that the vague, undefined “uncleanness” that constituted grounds for divorce in Deuteronomy is to be identified with “fornication”— and nothing else (Matt.ch. 5:32).”
Now why on earth would Jesus tell us not to lust if as human being we are led to believe that this is impossible not to do? Because we have bought into a lie that society has taught us to believe and because we love the sin more than we love others and the Lord—That’s why. To objectify another is what leads one to violating the very essence of another persons soul. It is predatorial in nature and leads to domestic violence and child abuse. It degrades and oppresses all that is within a person to be all they are meant to be in the eyes of the Lord. What more it gives the false notion that one is entitled to look down upon another to be used for ones personal entertainment, pleasures, and desires. It has nothing to do with being in relationship with another, but only feeds one’s ego, pride, and need to be in control over that which is not theirs to have, to hold, as a hostage, a slave, or anything else that is not on equal level with them. It is very addicting —- most destructive habit that causes all that is to be a reflection of our Lord relationship to His church to be proface and put to shame.
Yet our churches leaders permit these things to go on and practicing these activities themselves. And we complain when destruction comes upon us and our marriages are torn asundered and our children become lost and disenfranchised with believing in God.. And then the cyle of sin is set in place for another generation to follow after—-simply because those in the church failed to repent, but rather made excuses for one another, saying “we’re just human, and besides everyone sins.” Hmmmm.
If my people who are called by my name will turn from their wicked way and repent, then I will heal lands and bless them. It is all about the heart, isn’t it—-after all. You really don’t need to be lying horizontally with another who was not yours to have to commit adultery—and how many lies and acts of deceit did you commit in just the process of denying this injunction that the Lord, Jesus has made—-how have you twisted scripture to justify this and what have your leaders been teaching you, and why——so much leaven in the church, it’s has become a cesspool where evil is permitted to exist side by side with that which is to be kept Holy and pure. The pile of crap that have been accumulated no longer is a oderous offense, but is not accpetable practice even among the leadership.
You teach the Word, but in your hearts you are dead.
Reframe:
” The pile of crap that have been accumulated no longer is a oderous offense, but is now is an acceptabe practice even within the leadership. But hey, they got your back and no one will be the wiser, it’s all good—-because if you get caught or held in question, just tell them:
1) I’ve gone before the Lord and repent of my adulteress heart—then throw the wife under the bus.
2) I’m just human, God understand. Better yet, just claim, you’re just a man and that you are designed to lust and to cheat and to lie and to cover up. And besides, ” everyone sins.”
3) “One sin is the same as any other, so I’ll confess to God and no one will be the wiser.
4) “You have to forgive me (let me out of the dog house, so I can do it again, and again) or you won’t be forgiven (real guilt trip while avoiding true repentance).
5) “What do you expect, if she or he would just (fill in the blank), I wouldn’t be tempted.”
You teach the Word, but in your hearts you are dead men bones—blind leading the blind.
Please note that although I do agree with much of what Steve Gregg had presented in the article that I linked regarding Divorce and Remarriage, I do not agree with his position on other topics such as:
1) that God did not promise the Jews He would return them to there land.
2) That God permanently divorce the Jewish people (Roman 11-12)
3) That the true people of true Israel (being Jesus) are Christian.
Sad to say, just found out this Hank’s Hanaggraff position as well. Well like they say, just because you may agree in one part does not obligate you to buy the whole enchilada. As a now departed pastor of mine once said—don’t believe me, take note, then check it out. If it’s not true let me know for I can be wrong just as much as anyone else. The Bible is true, therefore, it is from that point we can start in order to get our doctrine correct and corrected.
In the Divorce and Remarriage article: I think there so much more that could been wirtten concerning domestic violence. There are plenty articles out there, so I will look for one that also lines itself up with scripture. It was obvious to me that Gregg sorely lack the knowledge and expertise to enable this to be adequately addressed. As Pastor Jeff Crippen noted, I think he is far more aware as he referenced Lundy Bancroft’s book in understanding how violate abuse can be even without having a laid a finger upon the abused. Therefore, physical separation from the abusive spouse can and should used in order maintain safety issues for the abused spouse and or their children. Even to the point of not letting the abusive spouse know of the whereabouts until clear and verifiable proof is provided that such danger no longer is a factor. This decision cannot be made without the participation of the abused spouse and he/she should never be forced to reconcile until they “know” this in their own mind and hearts.
Has anyone ever thought about constitutes normal and abnormal behavior?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fighting-fear/201305/determining-what-is-normal-behavior-and-what-is-not
In a church community we may have become so tolerant of enabling others to hide behind the faith while living a double life—-not all are dangerous. Many simply have unresolved issues or problems in their life that they may not feel or think, real or imagine are things they can share or make known within the church.
And others hide behind what is called: The Mask of Insanity.
These are those that the Bible tells us are predatorial in nature. Due to the constant message we get that we need to be tolerant, the church has become a cesspool that attract these types. Initially, and actually for a very long, long time they can work their way in and totally turn the entire community upside down, never ever being exposed. And if someone tries, they are the ones who find themselves being accused of being devisive instead. We need to know what is normal and abnormal behavior in terms of being a Christian. We also need to know that our church is not lowering the standard of what is to be permitted as acceptable behavior in the church and as a Christian. Domestic violence and child abuse is not normal and it is not acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, it is important to know just what these behaviors entail that should not be tolerated, but rather called out and rebuked—not by just admonishing by way of teaching a Bible study, but even more so by directly not permitting it to even be a part of the church community. It’s not okay to drink and drug. It’s not okay to drink when it impairs the abilty to be empathic towards others and to make good decisions that enables everyone to feel safe and able to flourish as a human being. It’s not okay to lie, to cheat, to play games with another person’s life. It is not normal to misrepresent the truth or God’s Word by being a wolf or a predator or a false teacher. Oh, in the world this might have a degree of normalcy, but in Christ—-it is not and in the church, it needs not to be tolerated.
Here’s another video on: Exposing the Mask of Insanity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXEgzhMKGeg
If these comments/videos are helpful, please let us know.
Generally speaking I get the sense that most people don’t believe or want to believe that some people are evil.
In church, we are told to tolerate, to be long suffering, to not judge, to know that everyone sins, and to not touch God’s annointed. In part, there is some truth in all of these admonitions. However, when a congregation is living more like the world than they who Paul, the Apostle has told us what behavior consistently expresses that of a child of the devil, we know these are not brothers and sister in the Lord. Now, the tough part about this is: we don’t know who we are fellowshipping with, particularly due to the size of a large congregation and a pastor and leadership that may keep themselves at an arm’s distance.
Here is another video that “Lifts the Veil by Thomas Sheridan.”
Thomas believes that psychopaths may be demon possessed. Quite frankly, I have wondered this on a number of occasions that this type of person have crossed my path. Whether, they are, or not, it is important to know that we need to guard the treasures of our hearts and take care that no one, no matter what your pastor may say, has a right to abuse that which God holds precious in His sight—-that would be you, by the way.
If you cannot sit down with your Pastor within a reasonable amount of time and if he or she is not able to hear and understand what you are trying to say to them, not necessarily agreeing with you, but treating you with dignity, respect, and consideration, then you need to change churches. Don’t wait until something serious comes up. Test this out. And if you should change churches, meet with the Pastor and their spouse to determine how open, flexible, available, and discerning they are in the issues that concerns you. If they poo, poo you, move on. Particularly if you are a female, married or unmarried, or a senior citizen. If you have children, this will even more important to find out what they know about child abuse and how they handle this withing the church. Look up how many lawsuits this church has been involved in and for what purpose. Do a search online to find out —- be balance for many will blast without a cause—-but others will be genuinely concerned to give due warning. For females, find out what intervention and support is provided for domestic violence. If the church tell you they will refer the woman or female to domestic violence agency, move on. The church is taking responsibility to support and to provide church discipline to help everyone to be healed and if repentance is forthcoming (by proof), working with the victim and her therapist, if she has one to lay down the terms for the abuser to make the restitution necessary to enable reconciliation. If any pastor ever tells you that you must tolerate abuse to any degree, leave. This is why it is important to understand what abuse is and is not. If your spouse is involved in any way, shape, or form with acting out inappropriately with another person, and he/she fails to stop this behavior, take it to the pastor. If the pastor tells you that it is a marital couple counseling issue—he is only saying what some therapist used believe. For we now know this is not the issue at all and this person needs to be held to an accountable while someone works with him or her to stop using you and others in this way.
If your church leadership and congregation are ignorrant about these things, take the offerings and bring in those who are experts who will educate and enable each of you to know how to identify these things and what to do to reduce the likelihood that it will continue while drawing others practice such things into the church.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qigr-axv2dk
“In a church community we may have become so tolerant of enabling others to hide behind the faith while living a double life—-not all are dangerous. Many simply have unresolved issues or problems in their life that they may not feel or think, real or imagine are things they can share or make known within the church.
And others hide behind what is called: The Mask of Insanity. ”
Note: the people, noted in the first paragraph, they don’t hurt others. In fact, many of these were raised, married, employed, and lived right next to “one” (it only takes one—people really don’t know how evil they can be) to do so much destruction without ever leaving a mark or evidence. The victim, by the time they catch on that it is not them, the monster has already left them in the dust is preying on others. Each time they exploit and victimized, they become more sophisticated in the tactics that they use, while accumulating proxies to back the Dr. Jekyll image up. But sometimes, something happens and more victims come out from the shadows and they are exposed for what they really are.
I often wonder just about those who supported and defended this false image. I wonder if they ever question themselves asking what kept them from hearing the truth of those who cried out for help, but didn’t lift a finder to even sit down with the victim with as much respect and consideration that they had done during the entire time the victim was being victimized.
Narcissist in the Ministry
WOW—-as I have shared and many of us know by first hand experience:
http://ingridschlueter.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/toxic-people-part-3-narcissists-in-ministry/
Keep at the front of your mind that a good majority of these are also psychopaths and sociopaths.
“I often wonder just about those who supported and defended this false image. I wonder if they ever question themselves asking what kept them from hearing the truth of those who cried out for help, but didn’t lift a finger to even sit down with the victim with as much respect and consideration that they had done with the abuser (including eating and going to a conference or on a mission trip with them) during the entire time the victim was being victimized.”
And this is why it is so important for a church, a real church to be modeled after the new testament church, not a company owned by one person and certainly not something that has a biblical name on it that does even exemplify the character of the person named after him. The Moses model is a smoke screen that enables abuse and corruption. It attracts and breeds men who are, at minimum narcissist and at minimum feeds into the pride and egos of men, who become most arrogant in their minds. When this happens, there is a form of godliness that they take on, but it is not and cannot possibly be the real thing. Simply because they cannot see beyond their own selves. If this was not true, they would not have a “Pastor’s club, but would rather formed the churches into a governing body that was unilaterral among all who attended, men and women alike.
1 Corinthians 12
(NKJV)
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
In the CC’s their is only the Senior Pastor and his flunkies. Oh, on his lips he may refer to the attendees, as members. But are they really—–only when mission trips are used to set up another church or when they need volunteers to hype or to clean or to entertain. But as for recognition of using the gifts of all—-does CC pursue these things. Or do they just teach it and then leave the congregation to figure out how to use it apart from CC. Do the congregant learn to be passive bench warmers while being beat up and made to feel guilty because ther “walk” is not as vital as the Senior Pastor and his inner circle. But hey, you can just donate your money and they will be a conduit between you and God deciding where it ought to go and how it should be used. Even the those doing missionary work have to raised their own support. It doesn’t come from what you are giving to CC in your offerings/tithes.
And some CC are very small, but it still has the Moses model and as long as it does, you are not consider to be a viable member of CC. Only the pastor and his board are considered members. Which means, only they are the body of the church. You are at best, a guest.
And some may wonder why they do not feel as though they are thriving in their faith. So, they go again, listening to the music, getting “taught” the word and then going away with their hearts lifted up. Until the fix wears off and began to crave that fix again. Wondering why or what isn’t right with them. Not knowing it is not them, it’s the leadership who has brainwashed them into believing that they are members of a church in word only, but not on paper. And their money, well, it’s not to see after those in the church, whoops, I mean the people who attend. Now is it.
Or do you know—–and how much say so do you have in this. Oh, you’re trusting in the Lord to make sure this is used for what New Testament has told us to do. It’s the money that the Lord gave you, and He has told us to be good stewards. Blindly trusting the Pastor and his board is about the dumbest thing one can do, but it is a good tactic to use upon the congregation to control and to manipulate you. Until you have a vote in how these monies are used, you are being scammed.
The Moses model is not biblical and a ready vehicle to corrupt everyone. And this is why you only feel connected when you are there, but as soon as you are in your car, then what. Does anyone ever call you when you are sick or in need. Only if you are part of the inner circle. There a huge lack of empathy and active compassionate care within CC. But there is a hierarchy that leaves your Pastor only answerable to God. Because he is special, annointed by the Lord to have access to the Lord, by the Holy Spirit that you don’t.
Which is not even biblical, but it is their distinctives.
“I often wonder just about those who supported and defended this false image. I wonder if they ever question themselves asking what kept them from hearing the truth of those who cried out for help, but didn’t lift a finger to even sit down with the victim with as much respect and consideration that they had done with the abuser (including eating and going to a conference or on a mission trip with them) during the entire time the victim was being victimized.”
And this is why it is so important for a church, a real church, to be modeled after the new testament church, not a company owned by one person and certainly not something that has a biblical name on it that does even exemplify the character of the person named after him.
The Moses model is a smoke screen that enables abuse and corruption. It attracts and breeds men who are, at minimum narcissist and at minimum feeds into the pride and egos of men, who become most arrogant in their minds. When this happens, there is a form of godliness that they take on, but it is not and cannot possibly be the real thing. Simply because they cannot see beyond their own selves. If this was not true, they would not have a “Pastor’s club, but would rather formed the churches into a governing body that was unilaterral among all who attended, men and women alike.
1 Corinthians 12
(NKJV)
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
In the CC’s their is only the Senior Pastor and his flunkies. Oh, on his lips he may refer to the attendees, as members. But are they really—–only when mission trips are used to set up another church or when they need volunteers to hype or to clean or to entertain. But as for recognition of using the gifts of all—-does CC pursue these things. Or do they just teach it and then leave the congregation to figure out how to use it apart from CC. Do the congregant learn to be passive bench warmers while being beat up and made to feel guilty because ther “walk” is not as vital as the Senior Pastor and his inner circle. But hey, you can just donate your money and they will be a conduit between you and God deciding where it ought to go and how it should be used. Even the those doing missionary work have to raised their own support. It doesn’t come from what you are giving to CC in your offerings/tithes.
And some CC are very small, but it still has the Moses model and as long as it does, you are not consider to be a viable member of CC. Only the pastor and his board are considered members. Which means, only they are the body of the church. You are at best, a guest.
And some may wonder why they do not feel as though they are thriving in their faith. So, they go again, listening to the music, getting “taught” the word and then going away with their hearts lifted up. Until the fix wears off and began to crave that fix again. Wondering why or what isn’t right with them. Not knowing it is not them, it’s the leadership who has brainwashed them into believing that they are members of a church in word only, but not on paper. And their money, well, it’s not to see after those in the church, whoops, I mean the people who attend. Now is it.
Or do you know—–and how much say so do you have in this. Oh, you’re trusting in the Lord to make sure this is used for what New Testament has told us to do. It’s the money that the Lord gave you, and He has told us to be good stewards. Blindly trusting the Pastor and his board is about the dumbest thing one can do, but it is a good tactic to use upon the congregation to control and to manipulate you. Until you have a vote in how these monies are used, you are being scammed.
The Moses model is not biblical and a ready vehicle to corrupt everyone. And this is why you only feel connected when you are there, but as soon as you are in your car, then what. Does anyone ever call you when you are sick or in need. Only if you are part of the inner circle. There a huge lack of empathy and active compassionate care within CC. But there is a hierarchy that leaves your Pastor only answerable to God. Because he is special, annointed by the Lord to have access to the Lord, by the Holy Spirit that you don’t.
Which is not even biblical, but it is in their distinctives.
Maude,
Please delete, it’s a duplicate. Thanks.
Uriahisaliveandwell says:
June 7, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Uriah,
WOW WOW WOW!!!
Had gone over to look at what you shared in your 239 at 2:40 post. Had to stop dead in my tracts over the first few lines I read
“who are unrepentant human destruction machines” ……….
If that is not exactly the description of the offending pastor that Chuck Smith and Brian Brodersen put in place after I told them and warned them and he STILL is a cc pastor just like Alex’s evil step father. God help them all when they face their maker and the JUDGE of all. They have blood on their hands. And so too all the pastors in this area who have heard about what went on and have done nothing but be friends with this pastor and invite him to “preach” at their venues. Right pp blogers!!