Sep 182012
 

Attorney’s claiming to represent Bob and Gayle Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia have sent notice of their intent to file a “defamation” lawsuit against several persons connected to the ongoing Calvary Chapel Visalia controversy.

Titled, “Preservation Request to Registrar, Webhosting Provider and Website”, the letter goes on to state:

“Our office represents Bob & Gayle Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia. The aforementioned parties intend to file a lawsuit in Tulare County Superior Court against individuals who have made defamatory statements against Bob Grenier and members of the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board of Directors.”

The letter specifically cites the following “individuals that have posted comments on the website CalvaryChapelNews.com as follows”:

1. Alex

2. NotAlone

3. Admin

4. Tina Jenkins

5. Edna Silva

The letter goes on to state, “We anticipate filing a Complaint within the next month and as such anticipate issuing appropriate subpoenas to third parties as well as discovery requests to defendants within 120 days.”

The firm representing Calvary Chapel Visalia is stated to be Williams, Jordan, Brodersen & Pritchett LLP of Visalia, California and the letter is signed by Nick Pritchett.

 Posted by at 1:27 pm

  193 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Visalia’s attorneys “intend to file lawsuit in Tulare County Superior Court against individuals who have made defamatory statements against Bob Grenier and members of the Calvary Chapel Board of Directors””

  1. Praying …..

  2. Pray for Bob, he’s gonna need it.

  3. Now is the time God has prepared to bring this issue into the light. What has been shrouded in darkness will now be exposed.

    May sin in every camp be dealt with. May victims find healing. May abusers find repentance. May sorrows be whiped away. May all find reconciliation unto God & each other.

  4. Adding to my prayer list. nicely stated, Steve.

    Remember, the prayers of a righteous man (and woman) availeth much. So people, purify yourselves while making ready to put on the whole armor of God to do battle in order to accomplish that which is way overdue, due.

  5. Today’s blog has its irony: http://pastorbobgrenier.blogspot.com/

    “What brings a person to ruin? It’s simple. It’s a one-word concept given to us in the Bible. It’s called ‘sin.’ . . . Man created his own problems, but it’s God who will solve them, [b]if you let Him[/b]”

    Actually, you have no power over God, Bob. His will shall be done whether or not you let Him.

  6. A defamation lawsuit, huh? (For those who don’t know my story, I was sued by my former pastor in March 2012 for defamation for the things I posted on Google reviews and also on my blog. We won the case and the pastor/church must pay all of our legal fees. )

    Well, okay then. Buckle your seatbelt, Alex. You may be in for a ride. The very sad thing about this is that it is done completely against scripture. My former pastor who issued a monstrous press release giving justifications for suing us has now removed it from his church website after he lost his court case. Last week he forked over the first payment for defense attorneys – somewhere around $17,000. I think we figured out that he and the church will end up paying close to $60K for suing – doing something he shouldn’t have done to begin with.

    The people suing you need to get a reality check. Defamation is very, very difficult to prove in court. The burden of proof lies on them. They have to prove that you knowingly told a lie and that you did it with the intent to harm (malice). You are doing the same thing I did – alerting people of abuses in the church. You will be fine. But it’s an emotional ride. And it gets old.

    Alex – I will be happy to send you any of my court papers that you are free to show your attorney. Is this based in CA? If so, my atty referenced a number of CA cases because the anti-SLAPP law was first enacted in CA and it is a strong law which will benefit you in your defamation case. You can access some of the documents here: http://www.citmedialaw.org/threats/beaverton-grace-bible-church-v-smith

    Do you suppose anyone from the “other side” is reading your blog? I hope so. Suing someone for exercising their right to free speech doesn’t usually work. I hope my comment serves as a reality check to those wishing to file the lawsuit.

  7. Ok, I just reread the article – yes, Visalia is in CA :) Good!! That’s a great state with history using the anti-SLAPP law. Perfect, Alex!

  8. well those MF lawyers can add my name to the list I’ll testify to their charges!

  9. LOL Lori, so cantankerous.

  10. Julie Anne @ 7 – Unscrupulous lawyers will take ‘God’s money’ any day of the week to fund any lawsuit, it puts bread on their table.

    If you ever want to read some good poetry on the modern day church, read the lyrics to the song “S.M.C.” by Project 86.

  11. If only I knew Bob and I could get invited to the party.

    Seriously, I know going to court is not fun and huge time sucker, but it’s about time to have a chance to lay out the facts in a court of law. Even some loyalists will have their eyes opened, and even more will not want to give money to the church to pay Bob’s court bills.

    I know people tend to want to be comfortable and turn a blind eye to problems so long as their family has a church to attend and their boat is not rocked; however, having one’s pastor is embroiled in a lawsuit that he’s bringing against his own family and other Christians … well, that can shake a few loose.

    I wonder what the CC movement leaders/pastors think now? They didn’t step in and investigate when told of the problems, they didn’t hold Bob to account even when they agreed Bob did wrong, and now the law of the land will get the chance to expose things publicly.

    Alex, et al, stand strong. God has a way of working things out better than we even imagined.

  12. OH NO HE DIH-NT’! I hope you’re shooting off another letter to Damian, Chuck, and Don. Maybe someone from the mothership will intervene (or at least allow intervention by those prepared to do so before they were stopped by Chuck) to prevent a huge waste of money, time, and further besmirching of the Brand and Christianity. How can they even think they’ll come out on top, especially considering Julie’s outcome? Prayers for you and your family Alex as you arm for battle.

  13. It’s certainly a malicious attempt to chill free speech and speaking out regarding child abuse, spiritual abuse, corruption, Paul’s molestation allegations etc.

    They’ll lose big. It’ll cost them a lot of money.

  14. Julie Anne, yes California has very strong anti-SLAPP stuff in place and very good attorneys who deal with this stuff.

    WJBP is small time. They used to be clients of mine in Visalia and I even think I had them do a legal letter and review my ad contracts for me at the time, so I’m pretty sure they’re conflicted out anyway. Idiots.

  15. Well, you knew it was going to happen regardless of the outcome. Pastor G will achieve his goal even if he loses the lawsuit, which is to quiet his gad flies.

    This stuff is tiresome and best.

  16. He won’t achieve his goal of chilling free speech and he won’t achieve his goal of making this go away.

  17. In fact, I will be publishing a chunk of the first-person testimonies from former staff, pastors, and long time Calvary Chapel members and a reprint of the testimonies from Paul and Geoff, my own recounting of the abuse etc.

  18. The public will get to see a big chunk of what was presented to Chuck Smith and CCOF and they turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the problems/abuses.

  19. We’ll also do a feature article on each CCV Board Member who has been presented with the child abuse and the molestation allegations etc.

  20. So who will be counsel for the defense? Gloria Allred? Kelly Clark? Sheckypoo? Perhaps a counter suit is in order. There were some genuinely defamatory comments from some Ya-Who’s on Topix, which sounded like they were straight from BG’s camp, if not mouth. And if my memory serves right, some nasty comments on here were traced to a Tulare County computer where a family member works. This is going to be fun.

  21. Brodersen has a son who is a lawyer? Always thought he a Jew wannabee.

  22. Western State Law School, Lewis & Clarke Law School and Whittier Law School. Don’ t they advertise on the back of matchbook covers? Low grades and very low LSAT’s get you onto their law reviews, which are cited by Superior Court judges in Barstow.

  23. Sheckstein. Why do you and Alex always have to cap on attorneys. Why don’t you givec them the respect that I do?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c8XLJ9MEhk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  24. I Heart Sheck said, “OH NO HE DIH-NT’!”

    LOL!

  25. Looks like Bob G. put a bee in the wrong bonnet!

  26. I have committed a grave offense and wish to make it right. Somewhere in the tomes of this blog, I referred to a certain “pastor” as “Boob”. This statement exhibits careless disrespect to an entity that should be shown nothing but respect and admiration for its inherent qualities of bringing comfort, pleasure, and vital nourishment. To boobies everywhere, I apologize.

  27. Hi Alex,

    I’ve been follwing your blog for the last few months and think you have done a great service to the Body of Christ in warning others just how far Calvary Chapel has fallen.

    Though I wasn’t abused by any pastor, My sister was physically and sexually abused by my dad (her stepfather, who also physically abused me) and like your stepfather, nothing was done by the proper authorities to punish my father, so my sister and I got the shaft. He has ruined lives and to this day, has still has not had to answer for all he’s done and is enjoying a nice life.

    I used to attend a couple different CC’s here in So. Cal and left one of them because the pastor allowed two people in leadership to live in open sin. In the last few monts, I already had issues with CC due to their associations with certain figures within Christianity who hold to questionable Bible teachings, but after reading your blogs and hearing the lies coming from the mouths of these so-called men of God, I am truly disgusted with CC, Chuck Smith and some of the other hypocritical Calvary Chapel “superstar” pastors of CC. Barring repentance, I would hate to be in their shoes when they appear before the Holy and Just God, our Lord Jesus Christ and explain to Him why they remained silent as children were being sexually and physically abused by their pastors, villified the victims, and lied in public about these grevious sins.

    I hope you get a really good, liberal attorney, one is is only too willing to expose the hypocrisy which exostss within our Ameri-churches. That miht have come off as a bit un-Godly on my part, but if it takes an attorney of that type to expose the Ameri-church and their hypocrisy, then just MAYBE this could serve as a catalyst for all these megachurch pastors who think they’re above the law (and above reproach) to clean up their act!

    My prayers will be with you and your family as I watch this unfold and play out. Please stay encouraged and keep fighting! God is using you, because by your putting this blog page up and exposing this evil that exists within the CC Movement, only God knows how many children you may have helped prevent experiencing the same abuse from the predatory pastors.

    God Bless You!

  28. Just thinking—how ironic, that this should now come to the forefront right on the heals of Pastor Jeffs letter to other Pastors.

    You are so right on Grateful.

    “will not want to give money to the church to pay Bob’s court bills.

    I know people tend to want to be comfortable and turn a blind eye to problems so long as their family has a church to attend and their boat is not rocked; however, having one’s pastor is embroiled in a lawsuit that he’s bringing against his own family and other Christians … well, that can shake a few loose.

    I wonder what the CC movement leaders/pastors think now? They didn’t step in and investigate when told of the problems, they didn’t hold Bob to account even when they agreed Bob did wrong, and now the law of the land will get the chance to expose things publicly.

    Alex, et al, stand strong. God has a way of working things out better than we even imagined.

    “and we have faith of a mustard seed and say to this mountain to be moved, it will be moved.”

  29. To the body of Christ and CC leadership everywhere:

    I know that many have visited Calvary Chapel Abuse to read through the various comments made pertaining to our concerns regarding our own abuse, as well as the abuse of others.

    Being an educated person, and watching the numbers go up and down and where viewers are generally from which is indicated by the map, I am making an educated guess that many viewers are CC Pastors and others who hold leadership positions within the ranks of CC. What I would like to know is what are you going to do to stop the abuse. Each of you have read Pastor Jeff’s letter. For those who knew about Alex, his brothers, mine, or any other being abused, what excuses have you given yourself, as Pastor Jeff has suggested and what are you going to do to repent and right the wrong that has been perpetrated against us, not just by the offender, but also due your own pride, ego, and unwillingness to due not wanting to rock the boat or to just not be bothered with such things that just might provoke the ire of others? What are you going to do to change the system of CC to enable the body of Christ (children, women, and men) to be able to be protected by behaviors that only served to avoid accountability and to control and abuse?

    To all CC Pastors. Pastor Jeff have called you forth. You are without excuse for you know the Scriptures as well as those who have sat under your teaching them. Many of us longer than you have been a Pastor or even in the Lord. Now, Bob Grenier is planning to take Alex, and others to court——-for one reason alone.

    BECAUSE CALVARY CHAPEL HAS SHIRK THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THOSE WHO WERE BEING ABUSED BY A WICKED AND CORRUPTED CC PASTOR WHO PLAYED THE GAME AND SEDUCED YOU INTO BELIEVING A LIE WAS THE TRUTH. BECAUSE CALVARY CHAPEL CHOSE TO BURY THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND, RATHER THAN TO DO WHAT PASTOR JEFF HAS CLEARLY BROUGHT INTO THE LIGHT. That is why —- so stand off to the sideline and see how it all turns out, but shame on you for mocking the Lord’s name by doing so and while calling your selves “leaders” of the church. This reminds me so much of the Pharisees and Saducees. Shame on you and who you say you are in Christ.

  30. To You who are a CC Pastor:

    It doesn’t matter if you are pastoring in Maine, California, or any other state or country. You represent the leadership of all of Calvary Chapel and not to take a stand even if it is against the core group who runs Calvary Chapel. To not to stand up against these things and to implement the things Pastor Jeff has outline makes you as guility as the abuser who perpetrates such abuses, adultery, incest, molestation, physical, mental, emotional, economic, sexual, and spiritual abuses. There is training available for all Pastors and their staff members.

    Ignorrance is not an excuse. You know that it is taking place and you know you have not lifted a finger to stop these things. What more you permit men who perpetrate these things to become Pastors and to participate in teaching ministries while God’s people are being raped and left abandoned, abused, isolated, alienated, and persecuted by you and the body of Christ that you have misled into believing otherwise. Speaking against these is not good enough, for we are told that even the least of those in the church ought to know how to judge these things. Not to persecute the victims, thereby absolving yourself of any wrongs done to them.

    Instead of using the tithes and donations given to you by the body of Christ to do His work, you use it for your own comforts and conveniences, rather than to see it as monies that belong to the entire body of Christ. You use it for legals fees and corporate holdings which do not benefit the body of Christ who are hungry, homeless, and without jobs. You may take up another offering to cover these things, but if the offerings were being used in the first place to help those in need, you wouldn’t need the special offerings. Instead of helping women and their children to survive the abandonment and betrayal of their husband and pastors, you pray with them, tell them to be more submissive, instead of holding to an account he that is misusing their authority and the “care” God has placed in his lap. What more, you are more concerned about running CC as a company than a church. Being so, you are also far more concerned about being sued, rather than to access the system that is able to provide excellent treatment as Bundy Bancroft is more than ready, able, and available to provide to enable family reunification to take place. Your arrogant, pride, and ego leaves you to be unteachable and without discernment towards those things that you know damn well is happening right under your noses and in the putlpit itself. So you can get pissed off if you like and you can make all the jokes you do, but God is faithful in doing battle for the oppressed, the abused, and the betrayed. But when all is said and done—-what answer are you going to give Him when He reminds you that you read this comment as well as all the other ones on this site?????????

  31. Alex wrote – “Julie Anne, yes California has very strong anti-SLAPP stuff in place and very good attorneys who deal with this stuff.”

    Anti-SLAPP worked well against Hanegraaff when he sued Bill Alnor. And Bill’s charges were fairly thin against Hanegraaff (given the general dishonesty of Hanegraaff)..

  32. Sheck, ROTFLOL! :lol:

    I know Nick Pritchett, he’d be a good insurance salesman…lawyer? Not so much.

  33. Thanks Musclecar.

    I heart Sheck: LOL!

    Linda: Amen, amen, amen (rinse, repeat :smile: )

    Grateful: Yep and then LOL!

    Doug G.: Anti-SLAPP was put in place for exactly this situation. What is ironic is that Bob made a living of hitting us and slapping us around growing up, he’s trying to bully us now….and he’s going to get SLAPPed back and pay out some $$$, unfortunately it’ll probably be money donated by well-meaning folks for ‘the Lord’s work!’ but instead will pay for Bob’s legal bills.

  34. Why now? That’s what is puzzling me. It’s been what, 4 years online now. So why now?

    I don’t see him doing this out of desperation to bring people back or keep the new ones blind. That would be a desperate measure.

    He’s old, he can’t have to many years left. Is he worried about his legacy?

    Is it vanity? Is he on top of his game and confident enough to take on his son now that most of the once helpful big names guys have grown tired of the fight.

    He’s going to lose. These lawyers are going to be embarrassed, like defending Sandusky. Its a firm, are all the partners ready for how this is going to effect thier names. I wonder if one of them is a CCV attender doing this for his pastor.

    Did the board approve this? Do they know? How about the CC rulers? What happens to thier Penn State to Bob’s Sandusky?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    All this because he won’t say 2 simple words……..”I’m sorry”
    He’s not very smart is he?

  35. He’d have to confess and cop to stuff before he could say “I’m sorry”. Bob doesn’t confess to sin, that’s for his sucker sheep.

  36. …oh, accept when it’s to sex up his “testimony” like drug dealing and drug smuggling, etc.

  37. Can’t understand what he hopes to gain. If he wins, I swear I will move to Mexico and start 100 blogs. It will be my full time job.

  38. This is so gonna Barbra Streisand blow up in his face. I wonder if his lawyers have advised a press comferance like that last brilliant Oregon pastor.

  39. Linda said:

    “What more, you are more concerned about running CC as a company than a church.”

    That’s because Calvary Chapels are Companies, they are Non Profit Corporations. I do not eqaute Calvary Chapel as being a Church, it can’t be because the Church is the people “called out ones”. Calvary Chapel is what it is and that is a brand name nothing more. When you have a brand name you are protect it at all costs and that includes men, women and children who are abused and want justice. Chuck Smith is no shepherd and is a protector of abusers. In other words Chuck Smith is not a true Pastor.

  40. Yes, interesting questions Not Alone. I hope his threat will get in the local papers to make attendees and potentials aware of his folly and keep their money out of his hands. I think his actions will only serve to drive more out of his fold and into this blog, hopefully with stories and evidence. If any CCVers have doubts in the back of their minds about their leader, this should nail it for them.
    I too wonder why now, and why these individuals? There have been plenty of others who posted testimonies of his abuse. I don’t want him to name anyone else, but he stayed away from the ones who testified here early on about his gross failures as a mandated reporter, for example. And the 24 yr elder who exposed financial misconduct.

    As for Costa Mecca, I wonder if they have denounced this and he’s going against them? I can’t imagine that Chuck would stay silent on this one, but who knows. Maybe when you hear back from CaCA on your initial letter you can find out, haha.

  41. One possibility is that the “defamation” suit will be a means to Poison the Well against me and the others. Bob’s MO is to dig up dirt and point the finger back at those who come against him over the years in a “look, Squirrel!” manner to his faithful.

    He probably puts all kinds of dirt in the defamation suit, knowing he won’t win, but then gets his story out on the public record. He’ll probably sling dirt at those who accused him, then give a lame defense/denial in the suit and then he’ll hope it gets Anti-SLAPPed so then he can claim victimhood with his faithful.

    That’s my current guess knowing Bob like I do.

  42. It may be best to actually let the process play out and enter discovery etc and really dig in. But, as I stated earlier, that could be accomplished in a separate lawsuit brought against him and CCV.

    We’ll see what happens.

  43. One thing I know about Bob, he’s cheap so he must really be getting desperate to spend the money on attorneys, either that or Greg Dowds or Andy Mangano gave him some more money, who knows.

  44. I wonder how much of the $750,000 of Reaching Youth money that was ear-marked to help area kids is left, ironic that the money may be funding lawsuits against child abuse victims of Bob’s. I’m sure that makes God real happy.

  45. Alex said,

    “I wonder how much of the $750,000 of Reaching Youth money that was ear-marked to help area kids is left…”

    Can you splain this to moi? Was Bob given $750,000 to reach youth? If so, where did this money come from? Why did they give it to Bob? Did Bob have a plan on how to use the money? …. very curious …

  46. Who gives that kind of cash to a group that has zero financial accountability?

  47. Not Alone said: This is so gonna Barbra Streisand blow up in his face. I wonder if his lawyers have advised a press comferance like that last brilliant Oregon pastor.

    There was no press conference to my knowledge. My former pastor issued a “press release”. Keep in mind the typical press release is very brief. My former pastor’s press release was posted on the church website as well as on The Wartburg Watch blog, but he removed it (and I can’t find it on TWW). Thankfully some readers sent it to me a while back and now I have it posted on my blog for historical purposes – always aiming to let the truth be known is my motto – lol (http://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/2012/08/bgbc-press-release.html)

    One reason it was getting publicity within the religious community was because he said something to the effect that a pastor from Grace Community Church (John MacArthur’s church) encouraged him to file suit against me. That turned out to be false.

  48. Ohhh, it’s not good to lie…

  49. #48 – Yea, that didn’t look very well for him. He then yanked down that “review”. Additionally, he made some key revisions to his mammoth press release and got caught on that, too.

    If your pastor feels the need to alter “press releases” without acknowledging it, he may be a liar. If he removes reviews, he may be trying to hide something. Lying and hiding were not part of biblical elder qualifications last time I checked. Yet people still sit in the pews. Still tithe. Here comes the Kool-Aid.

  50. Julie Anne, it’s sad, but some folks just don’t care. They’ll fund and enable a bad pastor and won’t bat an eye b/c they like the cafe or the music or something superficial like that.

    Many choose to be blind to the many issues as long as they aren’t personally affected. However, over time, some of those folks end up personally affected and then the scales come off their eyes. It’s pretty normal human reaction. I can understand it. I used to drink the Kool Aid at one time too and actually defended and enabled Bob for many years, even though I full well knew what a total bastard he is.

  51. Alex – we found the same thing – enabling behavior- – - that is until your adult child goes wayward and you are forced to shun them. That’s usually when things heat up. When you are told to shun, you are also told to tell your family and friends (outside of the church) to shun – even those who don’t go to the church. That’s a tough pill to swallow.

  52. #34

    Is it possible that CC has spoken with BG again behind closed doors and this has put pressure on BG to prove to CC that he is innocent.

    Isn’t this what an abuser does? That is, as an distraction, they will flap their wings to intimidate their victim to shut them up but rewrite the script to make it look as though they are the victim instead?

    Is it possible that CC told BG to take care of it, or they would take care of him by sanctioning him in the ways that they do with people who causes them trouble? Perhaps, the Association sees this as an albatross around their neck and are behind all of this and have told BG to deal with it as “they” meaning CC as a whole are now feeling the repercussions of the legacy of CCOF and CS failure to deal with these things more appropriately.

    It’s difficult for me to believe that BG is doing this on his own. IMO there are names behind this waiting in the wings to see what happens before taking the next step.

  53. Hey Guys,

    You all have this wrong.maybre Bob is trying to bring this out in the public so he can say he is sorry :). He is doing 1 Cor. 6:5 …..Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? Alex you tried to have the issued judged within the church, but did not find one able to judge. Perhaps Bob is in agreement with you, perhaps there are no wise men in Calvary.

    Maybe you can help him in solving this issue. Have any of you who have been wronged, either in action or word, collected proof? A counter suit can help. Defamation of character goes both ways. Do you believe your giving to a 501C3 (church) was missed used? A church has to follow the 501C3 laws, even if they do not file for a letter of determination. Perhaps a suit will clear this up.Either way the books will be opened for all to see. Can you prove that child abuse was confessed to a church board? If yes, then the board is accountable to civil and criminal laws for not reporting the act. Overall, a counter suit can bring to the open those things you have spoken for all to judge.

    As I said, perhaps Bob is trying to finally deal with these claims in an open forum, I encourage you to help him.

    Chuck

  54. Linda – There is going to be hell to pay if CC does not respond publicly (especially if the media gets involved). People will demand a response. CC is going to have to come out publicly to save face in some way or another just like Grace Community had to in our situation. (Our former pastor implicated GCC by saying a pastor encouraged him to file a lawsuit against us.)

    Grace Community eventually issued a public statement condemning the lawsuit and lawsuits against Christians in general (http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/05/15/phil-johnson-responds-for-john-macarthur-and-grace-community-church/), but failed to address any other abuse issue. I suspect CC will do the same. It is the politically correct thing to do.

    Once this gets out in a big way, CC will also need to publicly address what they knew about this situation, when they knew about it, and how they dealt with it. This could prove very damaging to them just as it has been in the Penn State case. You know, now would be the time to deal with it, because once this gets out in a very public way, they won’t know what hit them. The public is getting very annoyed with abuse cover-ups in churches. The Penn State sex abuse scandal may prove to be very beneficial in this case because it is fresh in everyone’s mind and the public is angry about it.

  55. JUlie Anne-

    Based on your experience, why do you think there is now a lawsuit?

  56. Sheck”. I think his actions will only serve to drive more out of his fold and into this blog, hopefully with stories and evidence.”

    Bubala-you are right!

  57. From Bob’s book:

    “Oh yes, I almost forgot to tell you that there was another boy named David who used to sleep next to me in that dormitory; and one night I felt him pulling back the covers of my bed and getting into bed with me. I was not sure what was happening and not sure what to do. I just lay there frozen as David did what he did. No one ever knew about it … not the nuns, the priests, or my parents. Only David and I. Not an uncommon thing to have happen to boys and girls.”

    Ya, not uncommon, no big deal, happens all the time right Bob? And the moral of your story is? No biggie? Let it go? What’s in the past is in the past?

    Sounds like Bob attempting to rationalize his behavior with Paul IMO.

  58. Alex- I find that eerie, bizarre, and quite disturbing.
    Thats why I brought it up on the other thread after someone posted his last blog entry.
    It sent chills down my spine in light of what is now happening.
    It is almost like a form of denial.

    Linda wocould give us more understanding of why he would choose to bring this up now..at this time. Unless like you say he is in some way convincing himself that because it happened to him, and it is “common”, it also can happen to his son. Very twisted thought process if thats the case.

    I dont want to hear from my Pastor that this is “common”.
    I dont even want to hear my Pastor talking about this.

  59. wocould=could….I had would and changed i to could-or so I thought. Just proves that the mind and the body are not always in unison….

  60. Hannah – I don’t know BG, but the typical profile of the spiritual abuser is a narcissist and everything revolves around them. They don’t see people and their feelings except for how they benefit them. It is all about them. I suspect that he got to the point where he is saying “enough is enough”. He’s tired of seeing his name dragged through the mud on the internet and thinks Alex must stop this insanity, ie, if Alex et al is taken to court then obviously the court will see his way of thinking, etc.

    I think if you read the words of my former pastor, you will probably see a lot of similarities. I read SGMsurvivors.com for a few years and kept forgetting that they weren’t talking about my church. Abusers act the same. It’s quite remarkable. My pastor thought he was completely justified in suing me, even when the church he most highly respects (MacArthur’s Grace Community) told him he was wrong to sue us. He probably convinced himself that they were wrong, they didn’t have all of the facts. He walked into the courtroom both times with his head held high, very confident, completely convinced that I was out of line and that I was waging war with God, with God’s church, with women and children.

    I suspect we will probably see very similar behavior. It will be interesting to compare notes.

  61. Hannah, yes, I saw you highlighted that on the other thread, it was a sobering observation.

    Personally, I think it’s a look into Bob’s mind and how he rationalizes and justifies things. He’s a very sadistic individual, the way he treated us and beat us growing up was sickening…yet he had a remarkable way of compartmentalizing his bad behavior and was great at covering it up, making excuses for it and also blaming the victim or giving himself an out as in ‘happens all the time’…it’s normal etc.

  62. Julie Anne “My pastor thought he was completely justified in suing me, even when the church he most highly respects (MacArthur’s Grace Community) told him he was wrong to sue us. He probably convinced himself that they were wrong”

    I am glad you are saying that because I thought I read on your blog the opposite. Pastor MAC has in many ways been my Pastor for over 8 yrs and I was shocked they would support a lawsuit.

    I am thinking that in a strange kind of way, this may be a form of confession.
    I have to say I have never met the man and because of this dont feel right about commenting on him.
    I just felt that the blog post was very odd.

    I guess we ought not be surprised at anything..after all we are warned about a “falling away” and those who creep in unnoticed.

    I applaud you for your fortitude, and for being there for Alex and all the rest of us. Many of us are praying for all the evil deeds to be exposed. Many of us have our own situations, and these cases will set the tone for the future.

  63. Alex-

    Yes, if we think something is “normal” then where is the disgust or sin in it?
    Do you think that situation is “normal”?
    My problem is not that he may have thought it was normal then, but obviously right now, he is saying it is normal, so does that give license to other men to exhibit this kind of behavior?
    I have to go back to see if there was any correction after he stated this. I dont think so.

  64. It all adds up for me after learning of Paul’s molestation allegations.

    Bob’s a creepy dude. I am 10 years older than Paul and while I wasn’t molested, Bob did make me shower naked with many times which gives me the creeps and he also made it a regular habit of walking around the house naked with his genitals exposed to us throughout our childhood and teen years. Again, creepy and now knowing what I know it makes me sick.

  65. Hannah, I completely agree. That Bob calls it normal and no big deal is shocking to me. It’s not normal, it’s not OK….unless you’re trying to justify/rationalize your own behavior I’m guessing.

  66. Alex-
    How do you connect se=exual abuse as a child to the Prodigal son???
    Thats where he went with this.
    And a gun held to his head.
    I don’t get it.
    Help me out here.

  67. Hannah: You said:

    “I am thinking that in a strange kind of way, this may be a form of confession.
    I have to say I have never met the man and because of this dont feel right about commenting on him.
    I just felt that the blog post was very odd.”

    Are you referring to MacArthur in this quote?

    Your case has potential to get huge. Parts of it are ugly, but when you are speaking the truth in love, it is worth it all. I absolutely support you all 100%. The world will be watching.

  68. Alex- That is creepy (#64). Sorry you had to experience that and have a visual of it.
    I am glad he did not teach you that this ought to be normal for you and your kids.
    OK, I have said enough on the subject….I feel I need a shower…

  69. Julie Anne,

    No, about commenting about BG.

  70. “Your case has potential to get huge.”

    I dont have a case!

  71. Hannah, Bob has historically presented the following defenses when stuff hits the fan with his wrongdoing. Now, every other time in the past he’s been successful in poisoning the well, getting folks shunned, black-balled etc and then appealing to “the devil is attacking me!” and then he spends time teaching about the trials of King David or Nehemiah finishing the wall, etc.

    This time around he seems to be adding a new one to his MO, “the prodigal son” in a backhanded way labeling me, Paul and Geoff as unbelievers and prodigals in need of redemption…when it is Bob who is the prodigal himself…only worse than a prodigal, Bob is an Achan, an Ananias, a Judas, an unrepentant King David who Nathan rebuked, but especially he is the Pharisees of Matthew 23 (and the money changers).

  72. Oh, I thought he was referring to himself as the Prodigal. I have to re-read it as much as I don’t want to!

  73. Hannah, my bad, if it is in his book it’s referring to himself, pretty sure. If he’s ranting about the prodigal from the pulpit etc then it’s probably a back-handed attempt to cast us brothers as prodigals.

  74. #70 Hannah – Were you part of CC? I was thinking you are. I’m sorry if I wrongly assumed. I referred to “our” case as those who went to the church even though some were not personally named on the lawsuit. The way I looked at it is that at any time they could be added to the lawsuit. We were all in it together in a sense – because if you are not “in” the church anymore but left, then you could be labeled as the enemy in such words as slanderers, Julie Anne and those with her (LOL – that makes me laugh), divisive group, subversive group, the group who wages war with God, with mothers, with children, etc.

    Yea, I got called a lot of things that sound pretty bad. Right, I’m a mother of 7 and I’m waging war with mothers and children. hahahahaha

  75. Yes, former CC’er..

    Alex- I am speaking of the blog entry for 9/17 on the blog

  76. Alex- I read it again and I still don’t understand the point of bringing up the abuse (which he says is a “normal” thing to happen to boys and girls) and then referring to HImself as the Prodigal. I don’t get what the lesson is.

  77. May have been wrong to call it abuse. I guess it was just amongst kids, so that does not constitute an issue. The first time I read it I assumed it was against his will. OK, need to get going!

  78. Thanks Alex from posting this article, which clearly pales in significance to tommorow’s Spud State game vs. BYU. That game has incredible consequence both spiritually as well as to your relationship to reality.

    So folks, let the lawsuit threat subside and let’s get down to brass tacks here.

  79. Hannah, I’m not sure either, weird IMO.

    Sheck, LOL! I can guarantee you one thing about tomorrow’s game…there will be a large Mormon contingent there.

    The Spuds are looking a bit human this year. I was at the Miami Ohio game and while they looked decent…they aren’t a top 12 team anymore…by a long shot. I think they’re still good enough to whoop the Asstecs though :smile:

  80. Sounds like Alex has a good handle on it.

    Not able to say as I don’t know what was said before and after or in what context it was written.

    The last sentence, however, appears to indicate he believes that it is easy to molest a child without anyone being any the wiser. Who’s going to believe a child?

    Another thing is when he wrote he didn’t know what was happening and wasn’t sure what to do. This indicates powerlessness and innocence, but for what purpose he shared this that could be better understood when knowing the context of such a paragrah. Was this a book, a testimony of his own experience or something else?

    I would really need to know in what context this was stated or being shared with others.

  81. Linda, the context was his book. He wrote that passage as part of his self-narrative that he was a bad bad guy (former drug dealer, drug smuggler etc) who “got Jesus” and was transformed into the model citizen and humble servant of God Pastor he is today.

    His view of himself and his history is very skewed. While he tripped over himself to tell us how bad he was before he became Super Pastor…he suddenly got amnesia and left all the gory details out of all the sin and wrongdoing and abuse after he became a pastor.

  82. #64 “it a regular habit of walking around the house naked with his genitals exposed to us”

    That was a way of sexualizing himself and doing a power play with those who was exposed to this. Similar to a person who exposes their genitals in public. It gives them a rush, particularly if there is a startle “deer in headlight” reaction to this type of behavior.

    He is extremely emotionally under developed. And in your case, most likly was very jealous of the innocence of those he victimized.

    As for being “normal” that is in the eye of the beholder. If he was doing this all the time, he could have been trying to break his victims down to think and to accept further sexual abuse from them. It is not uncommon for sexual or otherwise abuse victim to think that other families operate on these terms as well.

    Sexual addicts will use things like this to groom their victims. It has to do with soothing themselves, as they equate love with sex and fear. At the same time, they know the difference between righ and wrong. For if they did not, then why put on a facade of being someone totally the opposite to others. If they truely believe that there was nothing wrong with it, then they would not deny the behavior in the first place.

    This facade also plays into the Narcissist mindset, as now “the game” becomes even more exciting to them. They truely live in their own heads.

    By instilling these things in their victim, they take on the role of their own offender while gaining great satisfaction from the reactions and violation, particularly when they are able to violate the core innocence of another. They see themselves as damaged and in part by damaging another, they are at least on equal grounds with them, if not more superior for being able to fool everyone while doing these things.

    I don’t know if this make sense. Doug Weiss, a Christian Psychologist and expert in the field of sexual addiction has several utube videos that goes into the 7 types of sexual addictions. One that does not involve sex directly but is referred to sexual anorexia and another that actually use the church to do what other type of sexual addiction are used for in order to feel love and power at the same time. Very interesting material. He tells us that are sex addicts are narcissist, but not all narcissist are sex addicts.

    Just in case you are wondering or did not know: sex addiction has nothing to do with sex. Sex is just one vehicle that is used to disarm and to exploit another but in a very convoluted seemingly upside down way of thinking,. For those old enough to remember, the Superman comics would on occasions speak of the world of Britanica (sp), meahing what is normal is abnormal and what is abnormal is normal.

    Anyway, better stop now, going off on a tangent. LOL

  83. Linda said, “For if they did not, then why put on a facade of being someone totally the opposite to others. If they truely believe that there was nothing wrong with it, then they would not deny the behavior in the first place.”

    Excellent point. He would tell us not to tell others about the physical abuse or we’d be separated and put in foster homes. That kept us silent and scared. He justified his abuse by saying he had to keep us in line as a pastor etc, but in reality he beat us for any reason that his mind would manufacture. We were often the dogs that got kicked.

    On the nakedness stuff and the showering, I can see that now. And, if it was normal behavior, why does he lie about it? Exactly due to what you said, b/c he knows he was crossing lines and has covered up his secret life over the years so others won’t find out what a perve he really is.

  84. Thanks Alex for the clarification.

    It’s not uncommon for a Narcissist to lay the groundwork to establish what he does, where he comes from, and how it has helped them to “become” “usually” a better person. What they seem to forget or don’t factor in, or simply believe they can wash away what was already shared, is people memories are working a whole lot better than thier memory. IMO I think that this is due to th pathological lying that goes on and the constant bends and turns “the story” takes depending on who it is being related to. In other words, they get where they believe their own lies, to the point they act out a facade that backs up the story. So when people are looking they don’t see what the people “left behind” is now trying to put back together, that which was left destroyed by the Narcissist. In most situations, the victims don’t come to realize the totality of this destruction until much later, due to the traumas inflicted and having to carry that while just trying to live their daily life activities out. Being so, a lot of evidence is not gathered, simply because Narcissist are attracted to those who are vulnerable, trusting, and dependent. They know that by the time things blow up, they already have a cover, a plan in place waiting in the wings with a fan club and alternate partners, as needed, should they be confronted with the truth. In the meantime, the Narcissist will play out the facade and focus on creating a new life apart from the victims he’s left under the bus. In their minds, the wife, the children, and neighbors are just things to be used. Interchangeable, depending upon the value and worth it brings to the idealized image they have about themselves.

    When telling their story, they will back up and say totally the opposite or feign amnesia, if they don’t have anyone to check the facts. But if the victims cannot be quieted, they are seen as a threat to their very survival. The narcissistic part is this has nothing to do with the harm done to another. They did what they beieve they were entitled to do and “darn it all,, people just didn’t want to go along” and just wanted to hurt me,” type of rationale. In this event, the victim (s) becomes the bad guy instead. They are truely able to shed tears of pain and hurt, just like those of his victims. They truely fill injured, because they truely believe that they are the victim instead. They have, in essence deceived themselves by living out a lie and then fallen prey to their own schemes and deception.

    Alex, you’re intelligent enough to know if any of this fits. I do have one question:

    I was reading BG Pastor letter that was on the church site that he pastors. In it, it gave a short summary of how he came after becoming a Christian, that in a span of 6 days, I believe it said, he became involved in full time ministry.

    Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!——–???????? Fast Tracking Scriptural Wisdom?

  85. Linda, wow, you described the Bob dynamic to a t.

    Yes, from Drug Dealer and Drug Smuggler to Preacher in a Moses Model authoritarian church construct that tells him he’s “God’s anointed” and special, in a flash. Gee, what could go wrong?

  86. Linda, it doesn’t help that my Mom enables him and reinforces his lying and spinning of the truth and rewriting the history of Bob’s actions, etc.

  87. Permit me to rephrase this: I was reading BG Pastor letter that was on the church site that he pastors. In it, it gave a short summary of how he came after becoming a Christian, that in a span of 6 days, I believe it said, he became involved in full time ministry.

    “He summarized how he became a Christian, then a pastor, saying that within 6 days he became a Christian, then became involved full time in ministry work. I’m not clear on this meaning he went right into be or taking on some sort of pastoral role. Nevertheless, it came across as being highly unusual and making his conversion experience to be that which called him immediately into this role. That would make him an exceptional person, by Scripture Requirements to be an elder, deacon, or otherwise in any type of leadership role.

    As a Christian, that would cause me great concern towards his ability to lead, guide, teach, or even to counsel anyone. It would also cause me to question how other CC pastors came to be. Is it just a matter of being able to charm and tap dance their way into this position. And how much does it have to do with truely be called by God? And how much has to do with just meeting corporate requirements. Yikes.

    I’m sorry everyone—–it just seems to get worse and worse, doesn’t it. And this is only one example of what we all know to be all to familiar occurrence within the church. Oh, that our churches would repent and do it God’s way, for a real “change” to come about. It would not even take 6 days to accomplish this: to put away our idols and to hold to an account that which not ought to be even named within the body of Christ.

  88. Linda, we’ve used some of Doug Weiss’ materials when we were at a loss to help some couples. His books helped us to understand things that were above our paygrade. He made the info easy to grasp.

  89. “Yes, from Drug Dealer and Drug Smuggler to Preacher in a Moses Model authoritarian church construct that tells him he’s “God’s anointed” and special, in a flash. Gee, what could go wrong?”

    But that’s insane, to believe that a person would be called this soon after their conversion. How long after this happen did he shared these “facts” with the body at large? I’m telling you, Alex—maybe as a young Christian I would have fallen for this, but as a mature Christian I would be calling foul and making some phone calls until the cows came home.

    If this is true and by his testimony, it appears that it is, then ——well, wait a minute, was Shiloh a part of CC then?

  90. Linda said,

    “When telling their story, they will back up and say totally the opposite or feign amnesia, if they don’t have anyone to check the facts. But if the victims cannot be quieted, they are seen as a threat to their very survival. The narcissistic part is this has nothing to do with the harm done to another. They did what they beieve they were entitled to do and “darn it all,, people just didn’t want to go along” and just wanted to hurt me,” type of rationale.”

    After Bob Grenier, this describes my ex-CC pastor. Wonder how many CCers (past and present) can say the same about their pastors?

    Many of these men were put into the ministry as novices -a tradition in CC- and God warns in Scripture not to do this for a reason. Prolly because it sets these guys up for failure. Quick rise to power and fame (even if its in a small environment,) lays the groundwork for pride to precipitate falling. Though the falling may not be seen by others, it’s a heart attitude of setting up idols before God … idols that could include putting great thoughts about one’s self before Christ.

  91. #86 Alex, you say he didn’t not physically sexually molest you. Running around naked in front of you is a form of sexual molestation and abuse.

    He is your step-father. So, how old were you when he became your step-father? This is what I’m thinking Alex reguarding your mother and her enabling these things. It is highly probable that in the years between you and your brother who was (physically) sexually molested or should we just say raped, a good deal of time was spent in traumatizing your mother where she came to believe that she had no choice but to go along with BG?

    Imagine this, you were led to believe that if you told you and your brothers would be placed in foster homes. Can you imagine what he may have also put into her head and how many times he proved to her that she would not be believed because of his ability to play like she was the crazy one instead. In these type of situation, people ask why the mother didn’t do anything, when in truth—they lost the essence of their own soul to the “N” long before your brother was molested and the beatings escalated. She became as much of a child under his thumb as her own children were. I will bet you that she prays that someone will free her. I bet she has often wished him dead and I would bet that she hates the person she has become at the cost of the sons that she gave birth. Think how entrenched CC is and how her world does not go beyond what BG determines that it does.

  92. I was 5 years old when my mom remarried Bob in Eugene Oregon. They met at the Shiloh Commune in Dexter Oregon shortly after Bob got ‘saved’ from his drug dealing and drug smuggling, etc.

    Yes, Bob was very abusive to my mom, screamed and yelled, broke stuff in front of her in rages (there’s a specific instance he actually shared from the pulpit joking about it. He picked a wooden chair up over his head in a rage and put a gash in the popcorn ceiling and then smashed it into pieces on the floor in front of all of us. He laughed as if it was no big deal when recounting the ordeal, we were all scared to death that he was going to kill us).

    I remember Bob dragging my mom to the back bedroom often and then locking the door and then the screams, yelling, crying that ensued.

    Geoff says he saw Bob smack her around, Paul says he saw Bob on top of her choking her.

    Linda, you have so much insight into this stuff, it’s uncanny.

    I confronted my mom around 7 years ago in my kitchen at our old home in Visalia about the abuse. I told her she shared in the responsibility for all the abuse that happened to us and I told her I blamed her for not protecting us. I told her she was an adult and should have put a stop to it. She broke down in tears and softened tremendously.

    I didn’t see her again for around a couple of weeks. When she resurfaced she was in cold robot mode and soon after we never saw her again. She stopped seeing our daughter, her granddaughter and it was over. Bob took her away.

  93. Grateful,

    So you are familiar with how it is the sex addict’s problem and not the problem of the spouse, right? That it has zip to do with the spouse, and that until the sex addict comes to terms with this and is able to develop insight to understand the harm that they have brought upon others, then marital counseling is not an option. Right?

    Oh, Doug Weiss will tell the spouse that is not the addict, that they will need to do their own recovery work to help them to heal, draw boundaries, and to have a life outside of the addict’s acting out behaviors, but at the same time will also say that this will be a lifelong process for the addict. This part, I believe to be a total farce, but this is what Doug will espouse, using thee 12 step philosophy, which I do not endorse in many ways and for many reasons. But the point I am trying to make is that you did go beyond what you were trying to accoumplish the couples as a couple because nothing was working. That is, because it has nothing to do with the spouse, what so ever, even though, like in Alex situation, the “N” or addict will blame and scapegoat upon another to distract and to keep their foot still in the water of acting out in some way, shape, or form.

    There is a huge error in thinking that just because one spouse is guility, the other has just got to have some part in it as well. When requiring counseling for both together, it only sets up a revictimization of the spouse who did nothing execpt to maybe call: foul.

  94. Linda, I feel violated now in hindsight for the forced showering (you did what Bob said or else) and for him parading around naked in front of us all those years with his genitals flopping around. It’s disgusting.

    I’m glad he didn’t molest me in the way he did Paul. I don’t know if I would have been able to handle that.

  95. Linda, the number of CC pastors who were moved into full time ministry very quickly is a large number. Because some of them now have very large churches they overlook that Scripture that tells us not to put novices into positions of leadership. I guess numbers and money trump obedience to Scripture.

    A guy came to our church who had an interesting skid row to Jesus sort of testimony. He’d not grown up with any faith, ended up doing years of drugs and finally living in his car when Jesus got a hold of him. It’s a wonderful testimony to the grace of God!

    Unfortunately, he was launched into ministry on the fast track. First he was put into the worship ministry, then added youth leader in the first year; and finally given the title of Pastor in the second+ year.

    He’s a great guy! But he’s still a novice. We ask God to protect him all the time. He’s in over his head, and no matter how great it feels to him to be able to trade in his drug addiction for the same “total involvement in ministry addiction,” it’s not what is good for the congregation, for their kids, nor even for his own spiritual health. But as long as he draws the crowds, even the needs of the people and his own needs will be overlooked by the pastor. Numbers, as in people, which equal dollars are what counts.

  96. Alex, “remarried Bob?”

    Alex, your mother is a victim too, who believes she has no way out. Pray for her, Alex.

    There is more I would like to share with you, but given this is a public site, it is best that this be done in a more private and descrete manner, for the sake of helping her and to enable a process of reconciliation.

    You have my email.

  97. Linda, what we used his material for was when we ran up against several women who had become anorexic in their midlife. The husbands blamed their problems on the wife’s eating disorder and the wife accepted the blame. But something did not sit right with us.

    Doug’s material described how many women develop eating disorders because they are trying to get their husband’s attention by trying to become some ideal they think he wants. When this is at play, Weiss suggests that sometimes this happens when the husband is involved with p*rn and unable to connect with his wife emotionally, even though the wife has no clue about his issues. She just knows something is wrong and she’s trying to fix it.

    In a couple of these cases, the men coped to the sin and the women had their eyes opened, ending their eating disorders. In one case, the man denied any sin in that area, but was later caught. In the meantime, the wife did experience freedom from her issue, and her eyes were opened to his self-deception. That, alone, did not solve the marital problems, but it was helpful to have the truth in the light.

    Not being a trained counselor, I did not read Weiss material with such depth as you describe. I hear your warnings, though. Thanks.

  98. Grateful,

    Not long ago, I became familiar with another CC Pastor’s story that is similar. That is, at the age of 17 years old shortly after becoming a Christian, he began teaching Bible study in his home, drawing a lot of young people. The group grew and within what I can do the math, he became the Senior Pastor by age 21 or 22, then moved into a building and hung out the CC shingle.

  99. It seems wrong not to sue Bob Grenier for these very sordid behaviors. I have felt, ever since I was made aware of the abuse and molestation accusations, that it would be very appropriate to bring charges against him. He is a criminal if this is believed by a court or a jury. The boys are not making this story up. Scores of Visalians can verify that Bob Grenier is a man of ill repute. He is only respected by a very small, unsuspecting crowd. He does not have any real friends, and you can see why. I would bet my farm, there is far more under the surface than anyone knows.

  100. Thinking of Alex’s mother … I imagine it would not be all that hard to break her will, create her limited world to control her, and make her think it is her only choice to give up her kids in order to put Bob first; especially if done over a long period of time with lots of “jesus” talk to confuse her.

    I don’t want to just let her off the hook, but if she was a novice as Bob was when he was going into the ministry, then she could have her spiritual and emotional growth stunted by that, as well.

    Father God, take a crow bar and pry her loose from the grip the enemy has on her life.

  101. Linda, one of my CC pastors started a church when he was 19. Because it’s still going today and has, at times, been a mega church then his model of starting out young is smiled upon. Never mind the big mistakes made along the way that hurt many, that just a little bit of wisdom would have prevented.

  102. Wide Awake, I’d bet your farm and my farm. What we see is the tip of the iceberg … at least that’s usually how this works.

  103. Grateful:

    “That, alone, did not solve the marital problems, but it was helpful to have the truth in the light.

    Can you imagine how much of a burden was lifted from the shoulders of the woman. Nothing short of addressing her husbands issues and using the wife’s reports to determine fact from fiction along with clinical polygraphs is able to break through the pathological lying and manipulation that goes on.

    Another way of looking at this is think about a person who is obsessed (physiologically, emotionally, and mentally addicted) with heroin. Now would you demand this person’s spouse to go through treatment together and would you lay blame at the non-using spouse for the choices that the addict is making, but is also impacting the lives of others in a destructive manner? Of course not, because it is not a marital issue, therefore, couple or marital counseling will not work but instead if anything enables the addict to continue in their way, leaving the spouse thinking that somehow or someway there is something they could had or should have done to avoid the abuse and the betrayals.

  104. Alex said

    “Yes, from Drug Dealer and Drug Smuggler to Preacher in a Moses Model authoritarian church construct that tells him he’s “God’s anointed” and special, in a flash. Gee, what could go wrong?”

    Everything!

  105. Yes, Linda, just understanding that she was trying to fix something she didn’t break and had no power to fix was enlightening and freeing for her.

    The man did not repent, sadly.

    When a person finally understands that admitting to the sin, repenting, and doing whatever they can to try and help mend the damage they’ve caused is not only the right thing to do, but it brings restoration to all involved. It takes way less energy and effort, and actually costs far less than when one continues to deny the sin in order to save their pride. That is far more costly … it’s costs one’s relationship with Jesus.

  106. I’m with Wide Awake. He’s a criminal and needs to be behind bars instead of being pastor and police chaplain. The press conference with national invites is a great idea, as well as a counter suit and criminal charges. My heart aches anew for all the sons and Gayle and is angered again at Chuck’s impotence. Bob is making enemies fast, and it will only take a few key people to come forward for his whole delusional world to implode.

  107. I Heart Sheck, who do you think could come forward?

    At this point, Chuck is not impotent, Chuck is in collusion with Bob. If not, then what else explains his behaviour?

  108. I thought the Grenier boys could not bring a lawsuit against Bob because the statute of limitations had run out?

  109. Grateful #106

    That is the message of the gospel, you know—-in a nutshell.

    I could not have said this any better—such a waste and tragedy for all.

    As Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastor have also put it.

    To say they are only accoutable to God—-in deed, that’s not what my Bible reads. It reads what you have just summed up—at the very cost of their own souls and the souls of others, I’m afraid.

  110. Sorry, that should be comment 105 instead.

  111. Grateful, I’m not an attorney, but I would imagine the suit would be base on a civil suit instead of a criminial trial. Like what happened with OJ Simpson. Just guessing. I know that in California that a child abuse case can be prosecuted within 3 years of discovery of the damages and realization of the offense committed. But there are also other rules that either puts a greater or less limitation on these types of offenses. The codes and laws are readily accessible, and I’m confident Alex has already looked into these things. But for those that don’t know and wonder why nothing has been done in criminal terms, I’ve copied a website address and included the first couple or so paragraphs, as I am certain these types of questions are often posed to Alex.

    That means that say a person goes into therapy at age, 30 because of PTSD, but have yet to open up the wounds cause by being sexually abused. They would fall within the statute of limitation:

    Are there Statutes of Limitations on Sexual Abuse Crimes in California?

    California does technically have statutes of limitations (SOL) on some of its sexual abuse crimes that require lawsuits to be brought within a certain time period. However, there are huge loopholes that usually allow most anyone to bring up a sexual abuse lawsuit even after the statute of limitations has expired.

    But It is important to remember that the statute of limitations that applies is the one that was in place at the time of the crime itself. So while the statute of limitations may have been lengthened in the time since, if the limitation ran out, it can NOT be reactivated.

    Example: A man commits an act of molestation in 1965, when there was a 3 year SOL on the crime. In 1970, the legislature removes the SOL from child molestation. The man can not still be prosecuted, because the SOL had expired before the law was changed. If the law had been changed in 1968, however, he could be prosecuted.

    If you are the victim of abuse, the first thing you must decide is whether you are pursuing something criminally or civilly, as the statute of limitation is usually different between the two of them.

    Civil Lawsuits for Sexual Abuse

    In California, the filing of a civil claim of sexual abuse must be made within 8 years of the age of majority (meaning before your 26th birthday). However, California is one of 28 states that have adopted an extension of the statute of limitations based on the “discovery” of child sexual abuse or its effects. While nearly every state has a basic suspension of the statute of limitations while someone is a minor, many states have recently adopted these new “discovery” extensions specifically designed for cases of sexual child abuse. The discovery rule allows for civil lawsuits to go forward when they are “within three years of the date the plaintiff discovers or reasonably should have discovered that psychological injury or illness occurring after the age of majority was caused by the sexual abuse.

    This rule was designed to counter the problem of prosecuting molesters who’s victims had repressed the memories for decades, long after the statute of limitations expired. Now, upon “discovery” of the memories of abuse (often through therapy), a person has 3 years to file a claim.

    http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/california-statute-of-limitations-on-sexual-abuse.html

  112. Alex, #92 “Linda, you have so much insight into this stuff, it’s uncanny.”

    Perhaps, you this will drive home to you even more why it is important for me to remain in hiding concerning my own situation. Particularly, when my life has been threatened so many times, should he be exposed and then held to an account, rather than to be made a CC Pastor.

  113. Alex, #92 “Linda, you have so much insight into this stuff, it’s uncanny.”

    Perhaps, you this will drive home to you even more why it is important for me to remain in hiding concerning my own situation. Paticularly, when my life has been threatened should he be exposed and then held to an account, rather than to be made a CC Pastor.

  114. When referencing Malachi 2:14-17, I prefer the KJV or the NKJV:

    Yet you say, “For what reason?” That is, why is God really angry with them?
    Because the Lord has been a witness
    Between you and the wife of your youth,
    With whom you have dealt treacherously
    Yet she is your companion
    And wife by covenant.

    Then in Malachi 2:15, it reads:

    Therefore take heed to your spirit.
    And let none deal treacerously with the wife of his youth

    Then again, in Malachi 2:17 (line 5) in my Bible page 504

    Therefore take heed to your spirit,
    that you do not deal treacherously.

    Anyway, wanted to add that to my last comment to Alex. Treachery is a much stronger word used and so appropriate given God’s position on abuse and betrayal towards the wife and children. It is an abomination to Him, as it should be for us as well and for any church leadership to turn their face from dealing with it—-I do fear for their very soul. Regardless of how they will let them selves off the hook by claiming, “once saved, always saved.” “It’s just a matter of losing our rewards.” That’s all—Urrrrrrrrrgh.

  115. Linda, you said: “So you are familiar with how it is the sex addict’s problem and not the problem of the spouse, right? That it has zip to do with the spouse, and that until the sex addict comes to terms with this and is able to develop insight to understand the harm that they have brought upon others, then marital counseling is not an option. Right?”

    Linda, is this a general thought with all addictions or specifically with sexual addiction?

    Alex: How big is BG’s church?

  116. BG’s church at its peak was around 1,000 adults.

    According to recent CC Visalia cast-offs, that number appears to be half or a little less. Anyone else have a current guesstimate?

  117. Yes, you cannot hardly be present with another when you are living in an altered reality that distorts your thoughts and emotions, much less have sufficient understanding and insight towards the negative impact you are having upon another. You simply cannot see beyond yourself.

  118. Think of it this way, even treatment centers will require a person to detox and abstain from all addictive substances or they will not because they cannot treat a person that is self medicating themselves. At the same time, treatment centers are only as effective as they are in being able to get to the core issues that will also address mulitple or poly substance abuse. Most treatment are not effective because they focus upon the substance that is what is referred to as the “drug of choice.” However, it is believed upon many treatment providers that are familiar with sexual addiction, that over 80 per cent of addicts who are being treated for subtance abuse, their primary addiction is sexual addiction. Which actually has to do with the inability to be emotionally and mentally intimate with others, but instead are very narcissistic in their mindset. So, what it all boils down to is the: issue of the heart. So, as a Christian, I see, God as being the only answer to enable this individual to be able come out of this to be healed and to change. But it’s not like a magical wand or a Genie out of a bottle, to have God do the work without the person’s coorperation and choice to do so.

    As for the spouse who is not using, they’re powerless. The best thing they can do for themselves is to get as much information to enable them to stay healthy and safe while also knowing it was never about them. That is, unless of course they are also suffering from some type of mood or thought disorder that could impact the addict’s ability to recover. A lot of spouse don’t want their spouses to get well for many reasons. None good, but even this is not a marital counseling issue. It’s an individual issue that impacts the entire marital or family unit—yet marital counseling other than maybe a couple session to nail down just what is going on, then referring out one and maybe keeping the other partner until each can resolve their own issues would be appropriate. If and when that happens, then marital counseling if needed could be provided.

    Most of the time, once an addict truely “gets it,” marital counseling is not required because most of the issues that were present simply are not present anymore. But if the addict is duel diagnosed, say with a personality as well, then that would be an over riding issue that will most definitely play a huge part in whether, or not the marriage would survive. Many times, and I would venture to say most of the time, it is not realistic to determine if there is a personality disorder while a person is using or in recovery up til the first two months of their recovery process. If they do have a PD, it is not going anywhere. Believe me, it is going to be there and will manifest itself as the type of behaviors that have already been mentioned on this site. PD is pervasive and long term. It was present befre the substance abuse or other addiction developed and it will be there afterwards. One of the key criteria for PD: is the lack of empathy and understanding or insight to how one’s behaviors impacts another—due to lack of conscience.

    I hope this answers your question. I tend to give to much information, so I hope I didn’t convolute things for you.

  119. Linda – that was very helpful and very timely. Thank you very much. It was not at all convoluted. I would like to ask you a question privately, if you are willing. bgbcsurvivors@ gmail.com

  120. Linda said, “much less have sufficient understanding and insight towards the negative impact you are having upon another. You simply cannot see beyond yourself.”

    That’s Bob alright.

  121. Linda said:

    “Regardless of how they will let them selves off the hook by claiming, “once saved, always saved.” “It’s just a matter of losing our rewards.”

    I never believed in that, too much scripture that contradicsts once saved always saved. If once saved always saved is correct then why all the warnings to Fear God and obey him and to stay on the narrwo road?

  122. Solomon wrote: I never believed in that, too much scripture that contradicsts once saved always saved. If once saved always saved is correct then why all the warnings to Fear God and obey him and to stay on the narrwo road?

    My understanding is that the verses you are referring to are some of the strongest verses regarding the “law”. The law is good but it is powerless to save. We cannot confuse the “law” and “gospel” however.. The “law” is powerless to save you. I think once we make a proper distinction between “law” and “gospel”, we can understand salvation a bit better. I do not like to get distracted by the “once saved always saved” controversy but I do want to point out that the “law” cannot and will not save you. Only Christ saves.

  123. Linda said:

    “Perhaps, you this will drive home to you even more why it is important for me to remain in hiding concerning my own situation. Particularly, when my life has been threatened so many times, should he be exposed and then held to an account, rather than to be made a CC Pastor.”

    A Wolf will never allow himself to be held accountable, he will only wax worse.

  124. Andrew said:

    “My understanding is that the verses you are referring to are some of the strongest verses regarding the “law”. The law is good but it is powerless to save. We cannot confuse the “law” and “gospel” however.. The “law” is powerless to save you. I think once we make a proper distinction between “law” and “gospel”, we can understand salvation a bit better. I do not like to get distracted by the “once saved always saved” controversy but I do want to point out that the “law” cannot and will not save you. Only Christ saves.”

    Ezekial 18 is a good read

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10″Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Anyone who practices the above sins and claims themselves “once saved always saved” is in for a rude awakening

    Luke 7:30-”But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”

    See they rejected the will of God for themselves

    1 Timothy 2:3-4-”For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    God desires all men to be saved

  125. Solomon wrote:
    Anyone who practices the above sins and claims themselves “once saved always saved” is in for a rude awakening.

    I say that anyone who thinks just because they abstain from these sins, they are going to heaven, will have a rude awakening. If you are guilty of one part of the law, you are guilty of everything. James 2:10. I don’t know about you, but I fall short of the law every day.

  126. Andrew,

    I am not talking about the Law, I am talking about practicing a life of sin

  127. Solomon,
    Ok, we can change our terminology if want. To me sin is really breaking God’s law. Same difference to me. And guess what I am a sinner. 1 John 1:8. I will be a sinner to the day I die. Plain and simple. In no way am I making accuses for anyone. That is not my point.

  128. All law and no gospel is no good. So here is the good news. 1 John 1:9.

  129. Jesus did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. Meaning he paid the penalty of death for our sins past. This sacrifice is once and for all, meaning that Jesus made a way for us once and for all. The gift of forgiveness and salvation is available to all who would repent and believe. But a lifestyle of intentional rebellion and disobedience is not covered by the Cross. It is mocking God. Just as, Paul wrote in Galatians 6:7-8 (NKJV)

    Do not be deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sow to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life..

    We can also see these things being taught by James in James 3.

    In verse 6, then later in verse 9: “Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Which means a lifestyle of sin.

    These are the ones, I believe Solomon speaks of and which I agree that the Once Saved, Always Saved is used to mock God’s Word. These are the ones that will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These are the ones that are may being doing works that appear to be of the Spirit, but because they do not know God, their hearts are not right and the reason they are doing these works. These are the ones, Jesus will say: Get away from me, I never knew you.

    There are so many other Scripture that say this as well. You just cannot claim the blood when you continue to live with one foot, or both feet in the world, giving an appearance of godliness, then claim to be a child of God. By their fruits, we shall know them. Not the superficial surface stuff, but how they actually treat others and what they do with the things that God has given them.

    On the other hand, if one is really saved, then they are always saved. But not in terms of leading a life in the flesh, mocking God’s Word.

    My 2 cents worth.

  130. Whoops, James 3 is incorrect. It should be: 1 John 3. Would hurt to begin with 1 John 2, then read forward.

    LOL

  131. Whoops, James 3 is incorrect. It should be: 1 John 3. Would “not” hurt to begin with 1 John 2, then read forward.

  132. 1 John 1:8 is often taught in error. What this means is that everyone has sinned. Not one person who ever lived on the face of this earth, other than Jesus, have not sinned. Being so, we each need to confess our sins, repent (turn away from these sins), and walk in the light as He is in the light.

    1 John 1:5
    1 John 1:6
    1 John 1:7
    1 John 1:8
    1 John 1:9
    1 John 1:10

    Many people will say that they are good and righteouss that they do not need Jesus. But for those who confess their sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrigteousness. Do we continue to sin, yes, but as we turn away from these sins, we mature more and we sin less. We don’t keep making excuses to sins saying, “I’m just human—God understands. Oh really—all I can say is: Work out your salvation with fear and trembling and don’t forget to make your calling sure, for the days are evil and the time of the bride grooms arrival is very near.

  133. Well I think when Jesus says “Get away from me, I never knew you”. I think its obvious they were never saved to begin with. Only Jesus can say this though. Of course if someone who claims to be a brother or sister is in blatant unrepentant sin than we can not and should not fellowship with them but we should pray for them and try to restore them gently. However, its a whole different story when you are talking about someone in the pulpit.

  134. “Of course if someone who claims to be a brother or sister is in blatant unrepentant sin than we can not and should not fellowship with them but we should pray for them and try to restore them gently. However, its a whole different story when you are talking about someone in the pulpit.

    True, we should hold them to an account and if they refuse to repent and bear the fruits of this repentance, then we need to be firmer with them and disfellowship with them for a time, praying that they would repent and be saved. At first, we take the gentle approach, but when this is not effective, then we are to address this as if we hate the very clothes they wear and as if we are plucking them out of the very flames of hellfires. For many, when there heart have become callous and self righteous, except it to warn them of eternal damnation, they would continue to discount and minimize the condition of their very soul that is at risk of not even being able to repent, even if they wanted to, for we do not know how long God will continue to give them an opportunity before turning them over to a reprobate mind.

    As for someone being in the pulpit, it is different. Please explain.

    Oh, by the way in the “I never knew you,” please keep in mind the scriptures leading up to this statement made by Jesus. He said “many” would say, Lord, didn’t we . . . . meaning that these will be very surprise because of the way they twisted scripture to mock His grace. At the same time, He told those who are in Him, how we can discern between the two. So, for those who are saved, we can see these things. And for those who are not, He warns them not to deceive themselves.

  135. So just so you know Bob, that when and if we counter sue you for all the harrassment you have done to us and you wonnder why…. just remember you sued us first. We were merely bringing to light, without involving the courts, what you have done to so many. The public needs to know, to make an educated decission of where or not to attend a church where he bullies around his staff, doesn’t disclose where the money goes, abused is sons as children, and has one blood son who claims he was molested by you. Let me get this straight….you want us to be quiet about that. Not going to happen. I think if you sue us this will light a fire that you will be sorry you started.

  136. So lets go over some of this right now, you bullied me around, you bullied Edna, you should have covered someone who was working full time hours with insurance but you didn’t, you used cuss words on occation to and about staff members. What was it again you called Patricia Boesch? Maybe you didn’t know someone overheard you? What exacly was Glick trying to bring open to the church when he misteriously retired? What was it that grandma Ruth said to someone? What really happened to Pastor Jim…oh wait he retired and looked for another job…..kind of interesting . How come you never showed a church budget? EVER! Should I continue Bob?

  137. Then you followed some of us around to another church and had a meeting with the pastor to try to make us look bad. I even heard you say about a former employee that you were going to contact every church in Visalia to warn them about this individual. Funny thing is Bob, what you accused that man of I wonder if it was you. You said he used your credit card for something that was scandalous. What was that Bob? Who called the church? But we will save all of this for court. Enough said. You still going to drag this to court?

  138. Quite frankly Bob, just repent. You just need to stop doing the wrong things and start doing the right. It’s that simple. Start with your sons Bob. Fix your messed up family. Then step down from the pulpit and do some honest work. Don’t get rich off of God’s holy people. If you truely repented, I would honestly forgive you. But it starts with repentence.

  139. And let me tell you, I would much rather suffer for standing for what is right then suffer for doing wrong. Even if I go to jail for speeking up and exposing the evil you have done, so be it.

  140. The more I think about it Bob, I seem to remember that man saying something like he was going to call the news paper if you didn’t pay the bill. Remember? Correct me if I’m wrong. You paid it. Why would you pay a bill for something that was illigal?

    You know Bob, I thought I was done posting about you and had been a sleeping tiger for a couple of months. I figured, “Hey I’ve pretty much said all I need to.” You just couldn’t help but yank the tigers tail. I’m starting to yawn a little and dig through my records. Don’t mess with me Bob. This credit card thing, it’s no joke. They can pull your bill and find out. And why would you use the money given to God for something like that. I really don’t think God thanked you for that one.

  141. How does someone get YOUR credit card anyway? It was yours right? Again if that’s not true, please correct me?

  142. Aaah, ’twas a joyous thing this morning to log on and see the Recent Comments filled with Tina. Between you and Alex, Bob is in a world of hurt! Prayers for you and your fam as you defend the truth.

    A delayed response to Grateful’s #107 (– didn’t mean to leave you hangin’ bro, just been busy): You asked to whom I was referring when I stated, “It will only take a few key people to come forward for his whole delusional world to implode.”
    1. Gayle — It would not be beyond God’s power to extricate her from her merciless jailer. In our prayers for her, let’s pray that her eyes would be opened and her heart emboldened by God’s power to begin her climb to freedom.
    2. Robert — The boy is unstable and enough like his dad that he could become Bob’s worst enemy in this whole matter.
    3. Freshly disillusioned folks who will leave CCV licking their wounds. Can’t figure out why anyone is still there — it sure as heck isn’t for his preaching skills. The only thing I can think of is ignorance, intentional for some. Current attendees and the media need to be made aware of his intent to sue, even if it never comes to fruition.
    4. Chuck — Is Chuck masterminding this or just letting Bob self-destruct? Complicit or complacent? Has Bob been blacklisted, or has Chuck been blackmailed? If Bob used to record counseling sessions with lowly giving units and play them back and laugh at home, you can bet he has held onto some hard evidence against others of greater consequence, i.e., board members and Chuck. Chuck is silent now, but if Bob files perhaps his hand will be forced to make a statement.

    IMO, the defendants should bombard CaCA with an email and letter from each demanding intervention. Or skip the middlemen and call Chuck’s cell :-). If no response, then perhaps send letters to each church of the region. If I were them, I’d want to know what kind of organization I’m in and that the new structure isn’t what it is represented to be.

  143. Regarding the initial police report and subsequent cry of expired SOL (AKA Sh*# Out of Luck), was an amendment ever filed? The molestation charges (and financial?) were conveniently left out of the final report. This may be a good thing to have on record.

    Alex, I think you stated recently (WordPress: why aren’t comments searchable??) that you wouldn’t reveal the “investigations” that have already been initiated bc they weren’t from church entities. Well, Bob just blew the playing field wide open, so can you share anything now? FBI? IRS? Perhaps those investigations precipitated his decision to sue. These are the actions of a desperate man.

  144. Sheck #142 Check

  145. Alex and Sheck:

    Is it possible to appeal the decision to a higher courts. I was thinking that the coalition that work on SOL involving child abuse issues might be of assistance and very interested in your endeavors. There is a national coalition that also works with state level proponants as well, to enable Federal and State laws to be more pro victim knowing that all too frequently, it is not until much later a victim is able to, if nothing else, muster the courage and to articulate all the incidents that occurred as they were being or witnessed another being abused.

  146. Re: I Heart Sheck @ 142

    Thanks for the response. I see now what you are saying. Hadn’t thought of Gayle and Robert turning, but it does make sense. The harder Bob pushes on them to be quiet and serve him, the more there becomes and equal pushback when there’s a possibility that Bob could be exposed and their gravy train is going to end. Even being linked to such public shame might encourage them to take this opportunity to free themselves. (What would be exceedingly sad is if they decide this is the only life they know so they will defend it just to stay with what is familiar.)

    For Gayle, it could be a simple as her seeing a way to support herself away from Bob that could free her up to make a step towards freedom.

    And you are absolutely right, there MUST be current issues with current attenders, or those who recently left, because Bob has not changed. He would still have financial improprieties that someone knows about, along with control and anger issues that still peek out when he can’t control them or he thinks no one important is watching.

    I am stunned that Bob would bring such a suit and open himself up to such damaging testimony, so many facts and evidence. Just the mere publicity, alone, is really not in his best interest.

    As for Chuck Smith … your questions are excellent! Is he in collusion? Supporting Bob in this suit to either 1. Stop Alex or 2. Bring a public end to Bob? I suspect that if he thought this through, that Chuck knows he faces the possibility of being called in to testify. I’m wondering if he thinks he’s the teflon man because of all that he’s gotten away with in the courts so far?

    Maybe Chuck thinks nothing can touch him because he’s “the lord’s anointed.” If so …. just think of David, “a man after God’s own heart” and how even he got called on the carpet by Nathan. There were consequences and they did hurt.

  147. Gayle, I know it seems like there is no way out, but there is. If you repent, tell the truth, God will provide all that you need! People all over will have incredible mercy towards you and the helpful hands and hearts will reach out to you. You will not be homeless and destitute … that is a lie from Gate 12 of hell.

    MANY will completely understand how you got to the point of defending Bob, enabling Bob, and even sinning against your own children, given your circumstances with Bob. They will. Many of us already feel great compassion for you. But you must repent, THEN the immediate, all-encompassing, incredible grace of God will fill you, cover you, and enable you to move into the light and into total freedom! You will be able to receive and give love again! You will feel alive again. You will be completely restored! You will see your precious grandchildren who love you!

    You are not too old to experience this new life …

    It’s not too late …

  148. Grateful #146 said: I am stunned that Bob would bring such a suit and open himself up to such damaging testimony, so many facts and evidence. Just the mere publicity, alone, is really not in his best interest.

    There is no logic for narcissists. It is all about themselves. They do not see their own faults or bad behavior. Everyone else gets the blame.

    My former pastor did the same thing. During the first hearing his attorney said they were planning on doing discovery and interrogations with other church members. His attorney was stupid – there is no discovery/subpoenas allowed after the anti-SLAPP motion is filed. Regardless of that, what would discovery do? It would expose far more of the pastor’s misdeeds. But once again, they don’t think they have misdeeds and that’s why they would do this. I kind of wish they did do discovery, he would have dug his own grave and everything would have been exposed for all the world to see.

    It’s very helpful to study the patterns of these abusers because for us “normal” people, it baffles our brains!! I have been fascinated with this case and so many that I read about because the similar patterns now just pop out at me – it’s so predictable. It’s not rocket science – anyone can see the patterns once you get familiar with them.

  149. Folks, there are at least three different former CCV bookkeepers than can testify to the way Bob Grenier ran the funds through the church. There are several former staff and Board members that can testify to how the church money was spent. Bob Grenier is the proudest man in Visalia, as well as the greatest fool. Bring on the discovery because this blog is only the tip of the iceberg.

  150. Bob’s definitely contending with the wrong bunch! Perhaps he thinks that if he can win suit he will be able to create further cover for his lies and deceptions– foolishness to the nth degree.

  151. Re: Jullie Anne said,

    “It’s very helpful to study the patterns of these abusers because for us “normal” people, it baffles our brains!! …. anyone can see the patterns once you get familiar with them.”

    This is what fascinated me, as well. The systemic nature of the problems that I was seeing or hearing about in CC’s in my state, region, and then on the East coast, West coast, including other countries. The pattern was so obvious. That led to looking at what the common denominator was/is … the affiliated pastors who often appear to share their narcissistic characteristics (varying degrees) or where trained by one (or more.)

    Truth is … if I were a pastor without accountability for finances, and zero ability for elders or board members to reign in a wayward pastor, basking in the adulation of the crowd … the safety of teaching people they cannot say anything negative about me because I’m “the Lord’s annointed,” … well, I’d become a narcissist too. What unrestrained power!

  152. You know I don’t think Bob will ever leave me alone if I don’t sue big time. I believe this is just more harrassment. I just wonder how much 7 years of mental anguish, 7 years of harrassment, violence in the workplace and fraud is worth? I think as a giving unit for close to 20 years, I should see the budget for each year I gave. If my money wasn’t used as I intended it to be used, I would like it ALL back. I think it’s probably close to $250,000. I’m going to have to obtain a lawyer anyway for the Anti Slapp so why not protect myself so he doesn’t do it again.

  153. So I guess for now I just wait to see if I get a letter in the mail from Bob’s attorney.

  154. It’s about time that budget was seen by the public. Full disclosure!

  155. So when is the court date? Will the VTD cover it?

  156. After those books are openened, I would like every person who has ever given to Bob, Calvary Chapel Visalia,Immanuel Christian Fellowship to have a full refund to, if they believe they have been missled or lied to about where their money was used. I would also like him to make restitution to those like the gentlemen who provided the stainless steel kitchen and purchase a hay trailor I beleive was never returned to my friend. I want everything made right.

  157. Lol
    Sorry for all the spelling… first cup of coffee :-)

  158. Tina – If you are sued, it will not come in the mail. A process server will come to your door with the special delivery. Don’t you feel special? :)

    I feel sorry for process servers and the difficult job they have. I was at my daughter’s volleyball practice when my husband got the delivery.

  159. Tina – it is certainly within your right to countersue. Now as one who has experienced this, I will tell you that you will hear all kinds of people telling you that you, as a Christian, should not be suing. I read this comment many, many times on news article comments, personal e-mails sent to me, and comments on my blog.

    The 1 Corinthians 6 verse questions about a lawsuit among Believers. Now the question in my mind becomes: is Bob Grenier a Believer? Some people look at the fruit in one’s life to discern this.

  160. Visalian said: “So when is the court date? Will the VTD cover it?”

    No court date yet Visalian. We will post here as soon as we know. We hope that we can fill the court room and hallways with Bob’s victims so he has to walk through the crowd of people he has hurt, “allegedly” hurt. :)

  161. Julie Anne, thanks so much for the article on your blog. Well done.

    I hope to comment over there today.

    Thanks for all you’ve done and are doing to help.

  162. I think the best strategy is to each retain separate Anti-SLAPP counsel so Bob and CCV have to pay off several different attorneys and their fees through Anti-SLAPP.

    Then some of us should sue.

    I’ll personally hold a press conference on the steps of the Tulare County Courthouse and the others are welcome to join me.

    We’ll need help spreading the word and informing local, regional and national media of this atrocity and this whole terrible situation.

    It’s time. I feel a peace and a personal calling. Bob’s gotten away with so much bad stuff for over 30 years. Enough is enough.

  163. Alex – please send me any press releases or whatever you plan on doing. I am happy to “spread the word” on this foolishness. My current blog post discusses this craziness. And I once again mention CC. I’m not done.

    Alex – I know that peace you are talking about. I felt it the ENTIRE process. That can only be a God thing because who rightly would feel peace with a lawsuit hanging over their head?

    Dee of Wartburg Watch retweeted my post on Calvary Chapel this morning and told me she is looking into it as well. I hope she takes the story to a wider audience.

  164. Will do Julie Anne.

    Yes, it’s got to be God. I feel as if there’s a purpose to all of this and an inevitability of sorts. I also feel equipped and up for the road ahead.

    TWW would be a great venue, as well, to deal with these issues. I hope they cover it.

  165. Alex- Do you think there will still be a lawsuit now? After all this discussion
    Seems to me no one (especially a good attorney) in their right mind would tackle this situation.

  166. Hannah, Nick Pritchett and Williams, Jordan, Brodersen, Pritchett are not “good attorneys” so yes, I think it’s possible. I’m sure Nick could use the money in this tough economy and will have no problem taking the Calvary Chapel givers money to pay his legal bill.

    I think Bob possibly chickens out, but he’s so prideful that just saying that will probably make him even more irrational than he is and he’ll do it just for pride’s sake. He’ll get killed in court and he’ll get counter sued and he’ll have to face off against several attorneys as we’ll each get our own representation which will multiply the legal costs that Calvary Chapel Visalia will have to pay off on Bob’s behalf in separate Anti-SLAPP motions.

    The media will be notified and there will be press conferences etc. and the issue will draw a lot of attention which is a good thing to warn more folks etc.

  167. I expect to be served soon, unless Bob Grenier chickens out. I’m preparing every day for the long battle.

  168. Thanks for responding guys, (and ladies)

    This is a very difficult situation and I am praying for you guys. Would the threat of a “court defeat” be enough to move BG from CC Visalia? Would CCOF or its new evolution be embarrassed enough to remove him?

    Lastly, is there chance of a fair trial in Visalia? Would BG public face be a weighing factor?

  169. JAS Said:

    “I feel sorry for process servers and the difficult job they have. I was at my daughter’s volleyball practice when my husband got the delivery.”

    I am a registered Process Server in California and yes it can be a tough job. According to CCP Code, they can serve anyone over 18 as long as Due Dilligence was established prior to the Substituted service. A follow up mailing will then be sent with a copy of the documents in the envelope being made out to Alex. Service will be effective 10 days from the date of mailing. If the documents are personally served to Alex then all of that is moot.

  170. FYI: I just posted a new article on my blog (http://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/2012/09/calvary-chapel-pastor-pastor-bob.html)

    This article deals with the history of the Bob Grenier family with personal accounts of abuse (and links) from three sons, quotes taken from comments here, personal correspondence with Alex, and also personal accounts from people outside the home who have testified to the abuse.

    My next CC article will be regarding alleged abuse by Bob Grenier occurring outside of the home ie, church/work/etc. If you have something you would like me to share, please contact me. Names/e-mail addresses/information are kept strictly confidential and I only publish what I am given permission to publish. I was only publish a fraction of what I know of my own church abuse story because I wasn’t given permission, so I understand confidentiality issues completely. ~ja bgbcsurvivors@gmail.com

  171. Julie Anne did a very thorough article over at BGBC Survivors. I’ll be posting it with a link on the front page once I get clear today (at the store). I encourage anyone who wants a concise, yet thorough, run down of the child abuse within our home and some of the background and history etc to read the article.

  172. Good article JA. I hope sometime you’ll highlight Chuck’s lies to/about Alex and that disgusting on-air phone conversation. How can CCphiles be part of an organization run by someone who lies from the pulpit, says he believes Alex but won’t lift a pinkie finger to help, tells abuse victims to “get a life”, and endorses a child molester?

    I had a few questions in #142 and #143 that I’m still pondering. And I’d like to add Bobby’s wife, Didi, to the list of key people who could break this wide open. Too sleepy to develop that thought, but she may tire of being associated with all this Bobstink.

    Has anyone contacted CaCA/Chuck since the intent to sue notice? Yes that’s been a dead end before, but I think corporate and spiritual accountability should still be demanded from them. And aside from the snafu of suing a believer, raise your hand if you think Bob should have pursued Matthew 18 in resolving his victimization rather than jumping straight to a defamation lawsuit?!

  173. A little off topic, but just saw this on LinkedIn:
    “Bob Grenier
    Pastor at Calvary Chapel Conference Center
    Visalia, California Area
    Hospitality”
    No mention of CCV. Significant, or is he just farting around? If you follow the company link it goes to the Murrietta retreat page.

  174. I heart sheck said: Good article JA. I hope sometime you’ll highlight Chuck’s lies to/about Alex and that disgusting on-air phone conversation. How can CCphiles be part of an organization run by someone who lies from the pulpit, says he believes Alex but won’t lift a pinkie finger to help, tells abuse victims to “get a life”, and endorses a child molester?

    Do you know where I can find this info? I’d be happy to add this information to one of my upcoming posts on CC. ~ja

  175. I’d be glad to. The sheer volume of this blog may be overwhelming and difficult to navigate, so anyone new to this saga should read these key posts, Paul’s statement on the homepage, and Julie Ann’s summary. The following dates are post dates, not dates of events.

    9/24/11: Details of Alex’s meeting with Chuck. Previous requests to meet were ignored, and Alex only got this meeting bc he got a hold of Chuck’s personal phone #.

    10/12/11: Chuck’s lies about the meeting and his condemnation of Alex from the pulpit. (Audio available at 1/13/12 post).

    11/15/11: Testimony from a former CCV board member about incidents of spiritual/emotional abuses at CCV and Bob’s confession of child abuse to the board. Those guys should be nailed for failure to report.

    Also in October and November are several podcasts/radio interviews which further illuminate Alex’s journey and Chuck’s selective impotence.

    12/3/11: On-air phone conversation between Chuck and Alex. Audio is a must-listen. Really shows Chuck’s heart.

    12/23/11: Testimony of Edna Silva, one of the defendants named in the intent to sue letter.

    So much more is buried in the blog. Alex, it might be helpful to keep a page with a running timeline of your ordeal, from childhood to the present. I’m picturing a list of dates with short descriptions of events and links to the corresponding posts.

    Mark Convoy, the above posts would be a good place to start your research. The Body of Christ needs more pastors willing to investigate and deal with sin in the camp.

  176. Thank you so much, I heart Sheck. I understand not having a timeline. So many people have asked for my timeline or complete story and I don’t have one either. I write my posts spontaneously as something moves me emotionally and so it is all very disjointed. Maybe one day . . .

    Maybe if I keep doing blog posts on CC, I’ll end up doing Alex’s and he can do mine – haha! ;)

  177. I heart Sheck … you’re the best! ;)

    Great synopsis, great idea.

  178. Hello I am Chuck Smith. I have big huge smile. You need to trust smile. You need to look into my eyes. You need to hear what I say. When I say Jump. You Jump. When I say roll over, you roll over. When I say die, You die! I am prophet of God and have Benny Hinn on my side!

  179. “Chuck Smith” LOL :lol:

    You weren’t so smiley, sir, when we were yelling at each other in your Board Room with your attorney present.

  180. “You’re a LOOSE CANNON!” –Chuck Smith to me (and no, he wasn’t smiling, he was p***sed)

  181. So have any of the people BG is threatening to sue actually been served with papers yet? If you haven’t, when will that happen?

  182. j2theperson,

    Within the information that Alex posted regarding the notice he received:

    “We anticipate filing a Complaint within the next month and as such anticipate issuing appropriate subpoenas to third parties as well as discovery requests to defendants within 120 days.””

  183. Alex,

    Will you be needing help in paying for legal and travel expenses? If so, is there a post box or other address that we can send our contributions?

  184. [...] Alex’s recent post indicates that attorneys representing Alex’s parents, Pastor Bob and Gayle Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia, are in fact preparing to file a defamation lawsuit against Alex and four others who post on his blog.  Here we go again – another pastor is suing a blogger and those who dared to expose their experiences on a blog. [...]

  185. [...] Grenier of Calvary Chapel News has written an excellent article on the possible impending lawsuit and has given me permission to republish it here.   You better believe I am emotionally drawn into [...]

  186. I don’t know what happened. The paragraphs are out of orders so decided to repost.

    I know I don’t often post on this blogsite, but I have a pressing question that maybe someone like Overly Concerned can provide me an answer.

    But before that, please pray for me as my physician has told me that that I have a potential high risk condition that has affected my heart and he believes it is directly due to my husband’s adulterous choices. These choices includes, from what I understand, fathering a child and passing her off as his wife while CC stands by and enables him.

    I have reason to believe that he went to Mexico while fraudulently securing a (illegal) divorce there, when the courts denied him his request in the state that has legal jurisdiction. I remain in hiding due to the threats he’s made on my life. I have informed his pastor and Raul Ries, but not a word from them, except once threatening with legal action if I continue to “harrass” them. So much for scripture I guess, huh.

    Yet not too long ago, my husband told me that he wanted to “work it out” but without any pastors involved and then asked me several times to put in an email what I wanted from him in order to reconcile. Three weeks later, a friend called him and asked him if he would be willing to sit down with several pastors of our choosing. He told my friend he would, but couldn’t talk due to having to be in a meeting, but would call him back. That was 3 months ago and two mission trips later—not a word.

    Oh by the way, I told my husband, no—that I had already written down this several times and he had had hundreds of opportunity to get his heart right, into treatment, and making restitution in the manner that would enable me to even consider trusting him and feeling safe with him. He totally ignored what I was saying, as he kept talking on top of me and telling me to send an email. Yes, he has been diagnosed as a NPD. I believe in light of the threats, he is a Narcissist/Sociopath.

    I have sent an email to one of the pastors at his CC church letting him know of these events and told him that all my husband had to do was to produce these documents that stated he was legally divorced from me and remarried. I would then take them to the Attorney General office and D.A.to have then determine the legality of such, as I never signed anything as required by another state or country. And if they are determine to be legal, then my husband and they would never hear from me again.

    As it stands, we are legally married and not legally separated, but even more important he has no biblical grounds whatsoever to file for a divorce. In essence by doing so, he has beared a false witness against me, as his wife and as a sister in the Lord and CC has enabled him to do this. To the detriment and destruction of his very soul, I fear and this breaks my heart more than anything.

    It blew me away when the physician told me that if I should experience heart failure, it would not be due to the typical CVA, but rather due to what is called: Broken Heart Syndrome. Much like what Jesus experienced. My physician is not happy with my husband, nor the church that he attends, being a Christian himself.

    How in all that is holy and sacred in the sight of the Lord can CC knowingly put my husband in charge of anything, such as in the mission fields by heading up mission trips to Mexico or teaching classes in a mission’s marital conference is beyond my understanding. Not qualified creditially or spiritually, let me assure you.

    But then again, they do permit adulterers to resume their leadership role while leaving their wives behind and pridefully introduce their adulteress partner.in their annual pastors conferences or promoting speakers who make documents to smear the character of our President while being engaged to another while still be married, then claiming they didn’t know it was against God’s Word?

    Sorry, Repentance does not mean one continues to commit adultery by abandoning and rejecting the true wife twisting scripture to justify and to use man’s laws to over ride God’s Word. And CC condones this? You can no more change God’s Word to make the practice of homosexuality by now legalizing marriage than you can obtain an unbiblical divorce then making a marriage honoring unto the Lord while your wife is alive and willing to reconcile with proof of real repentance.

    And you wonder why I stand behind Alex and so many others that have beared witness to the abusive practices they have shared on this site? Apparently, my story is just one of so many–yet ever so heart breaking due to the ungodly practices perpetrated by my husband and CC.

    I remain in hiding, living in the shadow of society, alone and ever in terror, wondering how it is that at one time I had my own home and I cared deeply for my husband. He had no need for anything as I did not deprive him at all. I simply would not share my bed or his affection with any other women as he wanted me to do so. Nor would I be compromised in my walk with the Lord. I spike the truth and I drew the line while refusing to be bullied into divorcing him in such a way that would enable him to cover up this treachery he has committed against me and our marriage. Psalms 109:1-5. (KJV). I wonder, will i ever be able to feel safe to walk openly in public and not need to worry about my husband carrying out his threats against me.

    And by the way, he has stated that he has tried for a long time to get me treatment as I have severe mental health issues. This is an example of what a Narcissist will say. It is what is called a “projection.” It serves as a distraction and makes me the scapegoat. Unfortunately for those who are easily taken in by him, some have bought into it, without ever having spoken one word to me. But those who know me, they will tell you that they think my husband is “evil” as he knows exactly what he is doing to a woman who has done nothing but good towards him. I pray that there is one even thin strand of conscience in him that God will use to turn him around and off that horse that he is riding upon to get his heart squared away.

    And all the more so, I pray for his eternal soul and the safety of this girl this child. For if it wasn’t her, it would have been someone else, then another and another and another. With me dead, he does not need to fear that he will be exposed, nor will he need to worry about being “biblically” married. Yeah, I know a twisted or perverted understanding of scripture, but that is the mindset of a Narcissist I have been told and now have experienced firstharnd.

    Overly Concerned, if you are still about—please let me hear from you. Thanks.

  187. Linda,

    I need to make a comment to you as I have known you here for at least 2 years or so, right?

    At this time, for the sake of your own health you need to move forward and forget about your husband. There are no biblical grounds for you to stay stuck in this situation. You are never going to get the outcome you desire . Nothing has changed in all this time. I know you asked specifically for Overly Concerned to reach out to you. You are harming your own life by holding onto a dream that is not going to happen.

    My heart goes out to you because I know how much you wanted reconciliation.
    I think you have to face the reality. I am so sorry for you. But this man is not worth dying over. I don’t think Jesus would want you to endure this.

    I am praying for you today. I am praying for peace and for the Lord to reach out and touch you with His healing. That this man will no longer cause you any harm. ..I think you have to take care of yourself and leave him to God. This is said out f concern for you. I hope you are getting good biblical counseling or have a Pastor you can speak with.

    Blessings and peace to you Linda.

  188. Hey Hannah,

    Thank you for your response and sharing your opinion and heart.

    My situation is far more complicated then “just moving forward and forgetting about my husband, however. I am fully aware of what biblical grounds and legal rights that I have.

    Just so that others will not respond in the same manner as Hannah did (Not to say she said anything wrong or offensive) there are certain factors that cannot be resolved by gaining a divorce. I am married to a Narcissist—divorce is irrelevant when it comes to my safety and other things that enables me to live openly when one has a sense of being safe and secure.

    What more I will not be used or manipulated or bullied into doing something that he would like to have done in order to cover up and enable him to exploit others while being none the wiser and being led to believe that he had biblical grounds to do so.

    So Hannah, I truely do appreciate you reaching, but please know it goes far beyond what my legal rights are or what biblical grounds I may have. Divorce is not always the answer, even if our spouse never returns. What more, it does not necessarily enable one to move on. The fact is, I am married and I need everyone to respect that regardless of their opinion that it’s over.

    Not according to the Lord, it is not. And that is what I believe I need to keep in mind, no matter what. For me divorce or marriage, or remarriage is not the issue. Safety rates up there pretty high. and truth even higher.

    I simply will not be moved on this for this is not the will of the Lord at this time. It just really throws me that CC would enable my husband to foolishly feed into some sort of belief that it’s all good with the Lord? Certainly with them,, I guess on their concept of what it means to repent and to be saved????

  189. Linda: I’m deeply grieved by your story. I have no words, just tears.

    I wish I could make it go away.

    Unfortunately, I have no other training, I don’t know what to do to help. Maybe someone with counseling experience can help Linda out?

    But thank you for being brave enough to share your story.

    I will pray for you daily. If there’s any practical things we can do for you, please let us know. I also friended you on FB.

    I pray for your safety. Make God cover you through these difficult times.

  190. In case anyone have not thought about the consequences of a spouse who say they are a Christian divorces another without biblical grounds or forces another to divorce them while making it appears that there were no biblical grounds, please know it is an extemely difficult situation. Particularly if you a Christian female.

    I simply will not bear the guilt and shame that belongs to him alone. Nor will I stand by and remain silent when I know he is exploiting my sisters and brothers in the process. Not when I know what he is, as a Narcissist, have and will do to this girl and their child. He needs treatment and she needs to be set free from him while getting the support that is needed to enable her to do this. Otherwise it is bigamy and they will both go to jail or worse as the Lord will determines. For I will not lift a hand except to speak the truth while remaining safe.

    Much to my heartache and sorrow for all the things that he has chosen to do without an ounce of consideration for anyone other than himself. From the times I have seen this girl, she appears as though she may have been underaged at the time he began to prey on her and seduced her. She has always appear frightened of me. I can only guess he told her the same things he told me about the woman he was engaged to prior to meeting me. No, he was not with her while we were dating. She and I are good friends, as a result of matching notes, etc.

    I know it sounds awful and it is, but when you understand Narcissism, it’s par for the course. Ask any addict and they will tell you the same. Fortunately or unfortunately, I am aware of the underlying intrapsychic workings, and versed in domestic violence, and scripture, so things are not as simple as just getting a divorce and moving on. Not when my life has been threatened in the manner that it has been while also saying he doesn’t want the pastors involved, but yes he agrees he needs to get his priorities straight and is willing to meet with pastors, but then also tells some that I am crazy and he doesn’t want to be tied to me any longer.

    Like I said, for me, it’s about truth, safety, and the ability to live out in the open among society at this time. It’s about maintaining this safety net that i have created in order to reduce the risks that I have from the Broken Heart Syndrome that have developed as a by product of being traumatized, terrorized, and bullied. In this, I need prayer and support.

    This is my written testimony should anything happen to me. I do it openly like this as it is the safest way to do this as he thinks that I am without any support and that no one will believe me or guess that he has done the things that I have shared to varying degrees with others. He will play the victim, while admitting that he hurt me, but in detail — not a chance.

    Had CC provided the support and forced the intervention like the church that we were attending prior to him leaving and hooking up with the CC that he attends, things would have turned out far better. As it is, his pastor would not even meet with me privately, without him simply because my husband did not want me to and since he was the “spiritual leader,” what I had to say irregardless of of my credentials and expertise and the wrongs done, he simply told my pastor, that he thought he was good judge of character and since my husband had not walked into his church with another female on his arm, he didn’t believe that my husband had or was being unfaithful. So in part, I hold this pastor responsible for not honoring me as a person and then enabling my husband to bring this girl eventually into the congregation knowing what i had shared and ignoring me throughout the entire time it was taking place.

    That I believe our Lord will most personally hold each of these to an account as He knows what I have suffered as a result of all of this. For I do cry out for His justice and for Him to vindicate me and my good name.

    I have walked most faithfully and waited, trusting upon Him to avenge me, hopefully causing these, as well as others, to repent. To make right the things that were taken from me, due to their pride, arrogance, and haughty attitude towards me (a woman). My standing in the Lord, being equal in all things and filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking the truth and asking for what was mine to be returned to me and restored as a sister in Christ is not too much to expect, not when it comes to my marriage and my fellowship that was ripped from me due to the unrpentent and hardened self righteous heart of two men who chose to ignore me simply because it was more about power, control, and the need to save one’s image, than to do what was right and honoring to me as such who is made as much as in the image of God as they were.

  191. Thank you, Kathy

    I had meant with several colleagues, pastors, and therapist. They all agree that I am doing what I need to do. They also agree that I must remain in hiding and keep safe. They also acknowledge that I am quite aware of what I am dealing with and know the risks involved should I come out of hiding to even meet with him since the last threat was quite violent in the way he made it without even touching me.

    The most important thing is that others are aware and that I always speak the truth as he will, if given the opportunity will attempt to set me up to do further harm while making others think he is the victim instead.

    The strongest weapon an abuser will use is to keep the victim silent and in fear of their life, should they be exposed. Alienation and isolation is another tactic that is used. This is part of the reason I came to blogsite, using my real name when speaking on this situation.

    As for my FB, I decided it was best that I shut it down for a season. As for concrete help, anything that anyone can help out with can be sent to Alex. He will find a way to get it to me. Prayers are most important—so very, very important as it keeps the enemy away from gaining a foothold and will not permit him to gain the victory here.

    Thanks again,, Hannah—I truely appreciate you jumping back on to join with me in my efforts to do what I need to do to take care of myself. As for pain, sorrow, and suffering, Jesus told us that as Christians we would be tested and tried and by this we would experience such things, particularly from those from within the church who claims to be our brothers and sisters in the Lord, and evn of our own household.

    Nevertheless, it does not minimize the aching heart that has so much love and wants so much better for those who are perishing due to their unrepentant hearts.

    One day———we will see him face to face and nothing, and I mean nothing can be compared to that joy which will last an eternity for those who overcome and walk in obedience to Him. That is His promise and that is what I hang onto in the midst of this darkness that has entered into my life and overshadows me like a cloud in the stark contrast to what I once knew. and still can see, just beyond the fringes of what I know not to be of Him or of my own doing.

  192. […] abuse bloggers.  I’ve been sued for blogging about my former church, attorneys for Calvary Chapel Visalia are apparently working on a defamation lawsuit against blogger Alex Grenier, YouTube blogger, Kevin Oliver had his YouTube account deactivated […]

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