Bob Grenier, Calvary Chapel, it's not too late to do the right thing.
Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia have recently stated they will be filing a lawsuit in Tulare County for “defamation” according to their attorney Nick Pritchett of Williams, Jordan, Brodersen and Pritchett, a small Visalia, California law firm.
If Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel backs out, doesn’t follow through, puts up the Stone Wall once again…it’s an admission of guilt in my opinion.
If they follow through, here’s what I believe is coming and here’s some insight to what I’m preparing…also a couple of last appeals to Bob before this gets past a point of no return.
First one of the appeals to Bob:
Drop the others from the lawsuit. Don’t re-victimize Tina Jenkins, Edna Silva and Not Alone. You’ve hurt them enough already. If it’s a fight you want, I pledge not to anti-SLAPP you if you drop the others…and I’ll give you all the fight you want in civil court. We’ll drag this whole stinking carcass into the public record and let a judge/jury decide who is righteous since the Church has shunned their moral/spiritual responsibility in these matters. We can both depose and cross-examine the aforementioned as witnesses and you take your shot there. Besides, it’s a waste of the good-givers and tithers money at Calvary Chapel Visalia for you to waste their money attacking the others when your lawyer Nick Pritchett knows good and well (or should know) that you’ll get anti-SLAPP’d and that Jesus Money you collect each Sunday will go to pay off the others’ attorneys and expenses. Save some of Jesus’s money and drop the others.
As to the lawsuit if Bob and Calvary Chapel don’t chicken out…from the info I’ve collected from Bob Apologists and CC cast-offs, I believe I have a pretty clear understanding of Camp Bob’s Narrative and Offense/Defense that they’ll present to the court (and to the Calvary Chapel Association to save face and save their Dove):
These are some of the key talking points I’ve learned/observed/heard:
“It’s a Private Family Matter”
“Alex is engaged in a Hate Campaign against his step-father in an effort to take him down”
“This is a Vendetta engineered by a media professional”
“Alex has bad character”
etc etc etc.
Appeals to Motive and Character. That will be the theme of the Camp Bob Narrative.
It’ll probably go something like this:
“Alex is a bitter vindictive step-son who has engineered a Hate Campaign to take down his step-dad. He has rallied a small group of malcontents who had beef with Bob Grenier and reason to lie about him to support Alex’s Hate Campaign. Alex’s brothers are ‘helping a brother out’ and lying for him as well. This whole thing is a malicious conspiracy to take Bob down. The brothers are motivated by their hatred of Bob and the former employees are disgruntled, etc. Who wouldn’t have a few disgruntled people after over 30 years in ministry? We’ll admit Bob may have been a jerk at times, but he did not do the things that these malicious malcontents are saying in Alex’s Hate Campaign. Regarding the supposed child abuse that Bob confessed to the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board, there are mitigating circumstances, Geoff was a danger to the others, he was hopped up on steroids and Bob had to punch him out to protect himself and the family. No other abuse ever happened in the home as many others testify” …or something similar.
Appeals to Motive seem to be a biggie so far.
Then they’ll appeal to Character and assail the character of all involved.
“Alex can’t be trusted. He has past moral failings. He has had some business disputes. He used to say how wonderful Bob was. He accepted a loan from Bob to start his business. He accepted food and shelter from Bob, etc. etc. Alex’s brothers have bad character, moral failings, are ‘scoundrels’ etc. The Aunt who says she witnessed abuse hates Bob and has a grudge. The former employees have bad character, moral failings, are disgruntled etc. and none of them are reliable in their testimony.”
If the Judge allows it to be partially about Character and Motive, I’ll present a different Narrative.
I’ll appeal to Bob’s (and Camp Bob’s) Character and Motive as well.
Bob was a former drug dealer and drug smuggler. He’s an un-convicted, un-caught felon, the only thing that keeps him from being a felon is that he was able to dodge prosecution for those crimes.
Bob claims there was a “miracle” in his life and he’s a changed man. However, Bob didn’t really change, just his bad character changed from one set of bad things to another set of bad things.
I’ll go on to present evidence that Bob went from having a street drug problem to a prescription drug problem. I’ll depose a CC pastor who will testify that he witnessed Bob “stoned on pills” on mission’s trips and that Bob confessed a pill problem with him in the mid 1980′s (during a time we were being abused terribly). I’ll depose witnesses from CCV that saw Bob acting strange, speaking weird, that he seemed to have been on the influence of pills and even stated that he had taken something. I’ll depose family witnesses who will testify that Bob took too many pills to get high.
I’ll then transition into a variety of other character issues and depose witnesses who will present testimony to Bob’s temper, his bullying, his lying, his manipulation, his cult-like counseling, his attempts to get a mother not to report child molestation to authorities etc, etc.
Then we’ll get into the financial issues. That’ll be a real interesting area. Don’t want to disclose too much here, but I can guarantee you, we’ll be on this one for awhile and depositions and discovery will be a hoot and the net will be cast wide and the things we’ll confirm….this part may cross over from civil to criminal, we’ll see.
I’ll conclude with the child abuse and Paul’s molestation allegations. With regards to the child abuse, I’ll depose those directly involved and other witnesses to the abuse. I’ll depose Glen C. and his testimony that Bob confessed punching Geoff out to his Board, but the Board didn’t take action, covered it up, didn’t report (and CCV is a mandatory reporter). Witnesses will testify that much child abuse happened after that Board inaction…not only victims of the abuse but outside witnesses post-confession.
I’ll depose Paul and put his molestation allegations on the record. It’ll be tough and emotional, I don’t look forward to that one.
I’ll present testimony that Bob had me shower naked with him and testimony from witnesses that Bob made it a regular habit of walking around naked in front of us as children/teens while in our home, genitals exposed.
I’ll present Bob’s testimony of his same-sex encounter at boarding school in his book.
There will be a few bombshell witnesses, and I don’t want to disclose too much, but I have a witness who will testify to what so far look like some pretty big inconsistencies in Bob’s version of his own history in his book.
To Motive. Why would Bob lie? Why would my Mom and Bobby Jr. lie for him? Why would the Dowds cover for him?
Money. Power. Influence.
Calvary Chapel Visalia is a money making machine. It’s also a powerful entity and provides a group of followers, a stage, platform and fame, etc.
In discovery we’ll show how much money CCV makes. We’ll show how much Bob and my Mom benefit financially from CCV. We’ll show how much money the Dowds make from CCV. We’ll show how CCV employs and gives benefits to Bob’s daughter-in-law who is Bobby Jr’s wife (Bobby Jr’s household is paid by CCV).
There is huge motive to lie and cover up abuses. If Bob loses his throne, the golden goose of the CCV money-making machine is cooked and his inner-circle loses money, power, influence as well.
I’ll also counter Camp Bob’s Narrative of my motive and my character and counter Bob’s version of the motive and character of all the others.
Very good counter-narrative, but I want to save some for the trial.
It’s not a “hate campaign” and a grand-conspiracy against Bob and it’s not just a small group who he’s hurt and keeps hurting and Bob is not a janitor, he’s a highly influential and powerful public figure in Positions of Trust. It’s in the public interest to deal with these things.
Bob’s actions and the church’s non-action in dealing with these issues in a just manner are responsible for this being public, not a conspiracy “hate campaign”.
The defamation claims will be easy to address and will pretty much be covered in all of the above.
There’s a lot more to it all, and I’m preparing to address these things well beyond what I’ve presented here…but that gives you a taste.
There are many witnesses who will be deposed who have not been mentioned who have some very interesting testimony.
I won’t leave any stone unturned in depositions or discovery. I know this situation like Hawking knows physics.
So, Bob, if you chicken out of your defamation suit, it sure looks like an admission of guilt to me (and many others).
Bring it and let’s get it on and get this stuff out in the open and dealt with.
ONE FINAL APPEAL: Bob, your other option is to confess, repent, come clean and seek reconciliation and get help for your many issues and ask for mercy. True repentance begins with acknowledging the sin and admitting you have a problem. You still may have to suffer some consequences for your sin, I can’t guarantee you won’t, but I’m pretty sure the consequences will be worse if you keep digging in.
Bob, stop this nonsense. Come forward and confess and repent. I’ll then help you to make amends, and help you ask for mercy, even though you may have to suffer some consequences, but it will go better for my Mom and your wife if you do the right thing now without this going further.
Call me, you know how to reach me.
Doubtful Bob will respond in the right manner. He probably hardens even further.
I’m prepared to go the distance and get this on, even if it takes a year or two more.
At the risk of sounding like a 17 yr old, you freakin’ rock Alex. Perhaps the photo above should be a toilet swirling as it flushes. I say nail him from all angles — criminal charges for the financial stuff, discrimination, failure as a mandated reporter, etc. And the press conference? No need to wait to be served, a pastor “intending” to sue his son IS newsworthy!
Excellent, Alex!
I’m speechless, Alex. That is except this is the way sin works for those who do not repent. Eventually, no matter which way they turn, truth will come out.
Bob, I don’t know you, but I do know about abuse. I know about the victim (s) and I know about the perpetrator or offender. I know it does not seem like it would be of benefit to do what should have been done a long, long time ago. But that is where you are so wrong. Alex is being quite generous with you. I pray that your ego, pride, guilt, and shame does not continue to keep you in bondage. I pray that you would permit yourself to be humbled by the conviction of the Holy Spirit to enable you to salvage that which you left a long time ago at the roadside, thinking you could just go on and no one would believe your children or the other people that have come forth to bare witness to your character. But as you can see, all your best efforts to keep the voices of your children silent have failed. Bob, this is the way these things works. They grow up and they remember, not because they want to remember, but because of the great destruction that was done to them that it is impossible to forget. You owe to them to do right, Bob. You owe it to yourself to make amends. The consequences of your wrongs have been carried by them and others far too long. It is time that you take this off of their shoulders and to enable them to heal from the things that you used as an excuse to hurt them. You made it all about you, and you totally ignore the reality of what you were and had done to them and their mother. Based on what they have shared and my own knowledge of these things, I have no doubt whatsoever that the best thing for you to do is to submit yourself to your family and let Alex help you to get the treatment that is so available to enable you to lead a much healthier and godly life. Bob, to do it any other way, will only bring you more shame, heartache, and disgrace. But to do this in the way that Alex has suggested is a chance for you to be finally rid you of the shell of that old man that you have carried around in the secrets places of your own heart. It is not what God wants for you and it is not what he wants for your family, be it among the body of Christ or those who was once place in your care to care for and to love. Stand up, Bob and finally be a real man of the Lord.
Alex – this is so well written. It’s difficult to think about this stuff and imagine that it is not some bad nightmare or horror movie. God is not amused. You are more than ready for this. I hope for your sake and for everyone’s sake he “brings it”.
Alex”-Bob, stop this nonsense. Come forward and confess and repent. I’ll then help you to make amends, and help you ask for mercy, even though you may have to suffer some consequences, but it will go better for my Mom and your wife if you do the right thing now without this going further.”
Call me, you know how to reach me.”
Alex, I am praying for this.
I think this is what Jesus would say.
I see that since I have left the state of California, and in my absence, the state legislators have enacted legislation that, in effect, acts to revise the history of great comedians in our country. And…Alex and many of you have embraced this statute without thought to its grave consequence. I thought Christians stood for truth in lifet and with history. Now what law am I so upset with? The very law referenced by Alex in his article.
That’s right…none other than the “anti-SLAPP” statute. For those of you younger than 40, let me give you some real history of comedians that no law, including anti-SLAPP can erase.
In the 1950′s and 1960′s, there was a famous black comedian who went onto star in the Red Fox sitcom…Stanford and Son. His name was Slappy White. Slappy played Vegas and was a good friend of my Dad, Shecky Greene. Slappy visited us all the time.
So not. Only has my Dad and his legacy been erased from the records, but now California has taken the extraordinary step of removing Slappy from the annuals of comedian history.
Shame on you all and shame on you Alex in particular for reveling in this outrageous act.
SHECK! You been hiding under a rock?
I’m gettin’ nervous about BSU vs SDSU. The boys in blue look human this season…
So, what’d you think of BG/CCV’s threat to sue?
Alex,
I was at the recent SDSU @ CSUF game, and SDSU will get mauled by BSU, is it in the Smurf Turf?
Sheck, that should be ‘Sanford and Son’– not Stanford.
It is amazing that I only came across this site a few months ago. Prior to that I knew that I was right about the ungodly things I highlighted at the CC I escaped from, but I thought they were the result of spiritual darkness creeping in. I knew that there were things said about other CCs as well and about the mother ship that were anything but a reflection of the love of Christ but I had spent so long in a mind-fog of not regarding those things as anything but an “attack of the enemy” to bring “the church” down. I knew about indiscretions and heard whispers of questionable dealings and things that seemed off-color but I drank the Kool-aid and accepted the deception that since we are “all still sinners” those types of things were bound to happen and I accepted that I should only look at my own sin and not judge the sin of anyone else. Now I see that my mind-fog was intense. On every level God tried to get my attention over the years and get me out. Only now can I look back and see that. Spiritually, intellectually, emotionally and psychologically certain things did not sit well and affected my own personal walk, but because I reasoned that the Word was being taught, I excused them.
I did not fully grasp the possibility that a CC pastor can take transcripts of old sermons by anointed evangelists and add a few anecdotes of his own and then preach those messages. I did not acknowledge the possibility that a CC pastor can have ministry interns do “research” for him and then include all of the material “researched” in a book he” writes”. There is an event in Acts that I have been asking myself some questions about and that is the story of Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8. He came to “believe” and he “continued with” Philip but then tried to purchase the Holy Spirit and was rebuked by Peter. He thought that the gifts of God could be bought and used for financial gain. I ask myself “What would it have looked like if no one had rebuked Simon?”…Hmm….
I feel a bit like a moron for not asking these questions over the years I spent at CC. My consolation is that anyone can be deceived. If Jim Jones was able to dupe politicians and intellectuals, if Hitler was able to deceive an entire nation into justifying atrocities, if Jerry Sandusky could be awarded by the president for his philanthropic work in an organization he founded from which he selected victims for sexual abuse, if evil men over time have had influence in all spheres of life…then my being deceived was not as incredible as it seems. I am not a moron…only human and in need of Jesus and in need of realizing what His Word says so that when behavior does not match His Word I can call it as it is. If that behavior is in my own life then I need to submit myself to God and draw near to Him and see to the cleansing of my own hands and heart (James 4) but if it is a work of darkness in a large setting then that work needs to be exposed (Ephesians 5).
In the time since I left CC I feel like I have been going through deprogramming. They know how to twist the scriptures to their benefit and keep people bound under false concepts of authority. Jesus clearly said in Matthew 20 that authority among believers is different from the world and from hypocritical religious leaders. Among believers the one who desires to be great must have a servant’s heart and in the Acts church that servanthood played itself out in a real way with the apostles going from place to place preaching the Gospel, sometimes being imprisoned for it, sometimes working with their own hands to support the work of the ministry. Paul was a tent-maker and continued in this (Acts 18:3) and while the apostles may have shared in the material gifts of the people in terms of donations given, they truly sowed spiritual gifts that justified this sharing (1 Corinthians 9:11). The Gospel was their life instead of just being their sole means of livelihood and sometimes Paul would actually forfeit receiving of money so that the people would know that his heart was for the Lord and for them (Acts 20:34 and 2 Corinthians 12). It is men like Paul and ultimately men like Jesus who are worthy of double honor (1 Timothy 5:17) and who can be trusted as people who look out for the souls of those under them (Hebrews 13:17).
The “church” is the best business around now. Tax-free money, limited external accountability, very little education required, not even the psychological testing the police department requires but yet still having great levels of influence over children and vulnerable people…all while getting paid large sums and perks everywhere: from free meals at restaurants, to free healthcare. Acts 8′s Simon would have flourished in these times! Peter told him that he was poisoned with iniquity and bound in deceit but in 2012 he would have attended CC Bible college and then been assigned to some place that had been scoped out for earning potential all under the guise of being led by the Holy Spirit. However to be led by the Holy Spirit you have to actually have the Holy Spirit…He cannot be purchased and eventually people who actually have Him start to realize that something is wrong. So what do you do? Hire a few men who do have the Holy Spirit but make sure to keep them busy running around the world or country so that they don’t see the day to day operations. That way the congregants who question whether or not the church leaders are really living Romans 8 lives get duped by the presence of a few pastors who are actually Christians.
Let’s imagine a little business model shall we: A preacher who may or may not actually know Jesus has no one in his church. He is introduced to a charismatic tree-hugger, who may or may not know Jesus but definitely has a personality so strong and so appealing that when he opens his mouth everyone wants to hear what he has to say. The preacher recognizes that he is in the presence of a crowd-drawing phenomenon. The young tree-hugger, filled with vim and vigor, shares “the gospel” with others who can identify with him. They believe “the gospel” and the preacher’s cup begins to run-over with broken, impressionable, rebellious young men and women given a chance to place a stamp of propriety on their formerly bohemian lifestyles and happy to hear “Jesus loves you man” from someone who looks like them and parties like them (since the young tree-hugger’s life is unchanged by “the gospel” he presents). The preacher is overjoyed as these young people “drink the Kool-Aid” 100% and as they accept messages on giving money to the movement out of “love”. No offering is officially collected…”love” is enough to motivate this group of tree-huggers who are ready to give their love for free to anyone who smiles at them. The prosperity begins and the young, charismatic tree hugger is no longer needed, so he is discarded because as the young crowd matures and settles into the religious routine, the truth of his unchanged life becomes bad for business. With time, the preacher sees that there is a specific recipe for money-making success. The idea of a franchise forms: Let’s sell “the church” to the masses! Charismatic young men are recruited and sent out to places where a hip, trendy approach to “being saved” would be appreciated. The milk is re-packaged ever so slightly depending on the audience and to keep everything as seemingly kosher as possible affiliations are made with established men and women of God to give a semblance of accountability. But what lies beneath all of this throughout the franchise?: Lawsuits left and right between family members and friends and large sums of money involved in large deals and spiritual abuse and child abuse and adulteries and scandals and cover-ups and bending of the law and using great influence with judges and law enforcement to do so and then defamation suits brought against anyone who dare speak up about anything at all, even if they were hurt or saw others get hurt by the wrong actions, counsel and motives of the franchise. Years go by and many questions are squashed as quickly as possible under the weight of a few heavy, hard to understand passages of scripture…..
Quite a thing to imagine! In CC land such imaginings would be called gossip and defamation. Corruption anywhere in the world though never truly seems to be confessed to by any group until the law gets involved. What gets me though is the fact that the law has actually had to get involved to prosecute the deviant activities of many in the CC franchise and yet congregants are none the wiser after! If that is not mind control then what else could it be called? Pedophiles and deviants and child abusers have once held or still hold positions of authority in the franchises and the congregants are told that anything they hear about it is an attack of the enemy! Yet the list of actual names gets longer every year…longer than it ever should be for a franchise that is trusted by unsuspecting parents everywhere. Names like: Dino Cardelli, Christopher Guardado , John Flores , James Joseph Gould, Rodger Allen Thomas , Anthony Iglesias etc….These are just a sampling of the ones who got caught. Could there be a chance that there are others who, because of a complete lack of true accountability, are still doing whatever they want to little boys and girls and receiving church money while they do? This is one of the many questions that the franchise wants to keep from circulating and wants to be suppressed as gossip and defamation because who would want to give money to a place that has supported and may continue to support monsters?
A franchise like that is a place where people who have had their personal lives and families ravaged by spiritual abuse and speak up are stripped down and told that they failed to obey authority even though they have never violated any of the authority that we are told to obey in the Bible. CC wields great amounts of self-appointed, wealth-enhanced, brainwashing power and it is not the only organization that is like that. But there is one thing they have forgotten: God is real and He really is looking to show Himself strong on someone’s behalf and when the outcry to Him for justice rises to a piercing crescendo He steps in and very often uses the legal system to do so. Corrupt organizations can manipulate the legal system and CC has done that in the past but God can override their ability to do so. That is one thing they have forgotten.
CC has a distinct problem dealing appropriately with truth. According to the Constitution, freedom of speech is still allowed, but if CC does something wrong or someone within their organization does something wrong and people want to discuss it, they call it defamation. This lawsuit should not be a defamation suit it should be a lawsuit of business interference and the whole CC organization should come on board with CCV to bring the suit because that is really the problem at the heart of this. When people highlight the truth about CC their business is affected. It is time they start calling things by the proper name. This lawsuit is an admission of guilt in the eyes of the “Highest Court” though. It shows a lack of feeling or compassion and a lack of the love of Christ. The fact that the rest of CC has not stepped in to correct CCV is a spiritual indictment against them. They have been measured in the balance for the love of Christ and found grossly lacking in it. It is no longer just individuals speaking up, it is the word getting out to congregants about things done by former key players in the entire CC camp that no one can deny such as the proven cases of child molestation and solicitation of a prostitute etc. There are a lot of etceteras and there is a lot for the legal system to investigate that will show that at the heart of this all there is a lack of accountability causing continued offenses that rival some of the worse scandals ever. If the search light is truly focused on the CC franchise the roaches will be revealed. The problem is that Christ loving people think this will ruin the public’s perception of the Church and stop people from coming to Jesus. This is another tool of manipulation by CC.
The true Church throughout the ages has only survived because of the Holy Spirit’s work in people who know God. These people are still everywhere….some of them even trapped in CC with their spirits saying “Leave” but the brainwashing and manipulation telling them something else. Paul told us to take every thought captive (2 Corinthians 10:5) and not to be conformed to this world (Romans 12:2). The only reason he would warn about that is if it was possible for us to have unbiblical thoughts and mindsets control us.
CC banks on this. So for anyone reading this please ask God for wisdom, He gives it liberally to those who ask and ask Him to transform you by the renewing of your mind and He will. Then truly be ready to be like the Bereans of Acts 17…search the scriptures for the truth. Start by reading Matthew 20:20-27 and find the only leadership model Jesus allowed among His disciples. Oh by the way even the Moses model does not truly match the CC way. Moses was a man who loved the people so much that when they failed and God was ready to destroy them and start something new with Moses alone, Moses begged God to spare them. Read Exodus 32, I highly doubt that CC leadership has shown that level of devotion to the people. In fact this lawsuit screams the exact opposite since funds donated by the congregation will no-doubt be used to pay for it. Moses didn’t take from the people and not give back and they were not food for him. He had a good life and livelihood that he left behind to lead the Israelites out of the bondage of Egypt and he received many of the same penalties they received. They wandered through the wilderness because of disobedience and as their leader so did he even though he was not faithless. The generation that he left Egypt with did not see the promise land and after he struck the rock in frustration in front of them, he also was told that he would not see the promise land. In all of this though God still loved Moses and Moses still loved the people and was led by God to lead them. It was not a “What I say goes!” model. It was a “This is what God says and wants you to walk in” model and a willingness to walk out the same truths with the people. Yes in Numbers 16 God honored a challenge that was made against Moses’ authority by Korah but this challenge was questioning whether God had the right to choose whoever He wants to lead. God chose Moses and Aaron to lead the people and God knew that Moses had a heart of compassion and love for the people. CC forgets this. It is not the one who claimed to be chosen by God that God justified in Numbers 16 ….it is the one who was actually chosen by God. If someone does not have a heart like Moses how can he use the Moses model? CC once again needs to call things by their proper names. Call it the Stalin model perhaps but leave God’s beloved Moses out of it. Please read 1Timothy 2 which is often misused in church circles and see that Paul is talking about non- Christian governmental authority and not the Church and remember that the model for the Church was outlined by Christ through demonstration of His servant-leadership throughout His earthly walk and His actual words in Matthew 20.
Then once the subject of authority has been dealt with it is time to deal with the subject of judgment. If anyone struggles in understanding this issue please read Matthew 7 and then Matthew 23. Please note that in Matthew 7 Jesus is clearly referring to “hypocritical judgment” of one another for things that God considers to be “a speck” while not addressing the things in our own lives that God considers to be “a plank”. Matthew 23 however is filled with words from Jesus that are very harsh and judgmental concerning the scribes and Pharisees. This is righteous judgment by Jesus of hypocrites and liars and false religious leaders and the same Jesus who told us not to engage in hypocritical judgment in Matthew 7 told us to judge with righteous judgment in John 7 and not to base it on appearance.
We all make judgments all the time anyway the Bible’s mandate is that those judgments should be righteous and not hypocritical. I will give an example not based on any true-life event: Let’s say a mother selects a day-care for her child and the building is beautiful and clean and the attendants sweet and seemingly kind and then two days before the care is scheduled to start she finds out that the person who owns the day care is a registered sex-offender with a history of molesting small children. Should she continue to take her child there? Should she ask for a refund? Should she let her neighbors children go there? In answering these questions you have to make a judgment. It is a fairly easy judgment to make though because the legal system has actually determined that sex-offenders are so likely to repeat their heinous acts, that it mandates that they be registered and the public warned.
The story above is perhaps improbable because such a person would probably not be allowed to open a daycare but things slip through the cracks every day. God gave us minds and intellects. He is also not schizophrenic and His Word does not contradict itself so when we hear something that sounds contradictory chances are our interpretation is wrong. Just as Jesus told us and demonstrated to us that we should not judge hypocritically but that we should judge righteously, Paul said and demonstrated the same thing. We are told in Romans 14 not to judge things like what another person eats or what days he observes etc., yet in 1 Corinthians 6 the same Paul asked the church if there was no wise man among them to judge between his brethren and talks about the fact that there are things that they should judge that no one was judging and as a result people are going to the law and throughout his letters to the Corinthians he expressed his horror that all types of ungodly things were happening that no one would say or do anything about! Paul was not crazy and this seeming duality of thought simply reflects that he was just like his Savior whose life and words declared that: hypocritical, Pharasaical judgment is not allowed, but righteous judgment is! In regard to all that is being highlighted on this site: As Peter said in 1 Peter 4:17…the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God….
CC’s brainwashing in areas of authority and judgment can only be undone by reading and knowing the Word of God with understanding. The world is blaspheming God’s name already because of places like CC. They believe that the “church” is filled with hypocrites and liars and the actions of places like CC declare that to be true. That belief only stops when a few people stand up and declare that the acts of places like CC are not God’s acts but the corrupt acts of calculating men. In Luther’s day the indulgences charged by the “church” were a burden on the people and stipulated by hypocritical and devious men and Luther spoke up and a wave of grace ushered in a move of God.
Unlike the brainwashed within CC , the general public today would feel free to ask questions like: “How can a known child molester be allowed to be a youth pastor?” or “Where did the money for lawsuits of the past and this current lawsuit come from?” or “How can someone who has actually engaged in admitted criminal activity, that they were never convicted of, become the spiritual leader of a large group of people and end up having influence on the legal system within his county?” or a host of other questions which are perfectly reasonable to the public but completely frowned on in CC circles and other circles that suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Eventually though someone will ask more and more of the right questions and the answers will show that CC’s fleshly deeds are in no way a reflection of the holiness, grace, goodness, patience, mercy and love of God.
Overly concerned,
WOW….WOW…..
You need to publish this.
I am at a loss for words.
PS. Are you a Pastor?
Oops slight typo above….: -) It should read:
“Please read 1 Timothy 2 and Romans 13, which is often misused in church circles, and see that Paul is talking about non- Christian governmental authority and not the Church and remember that the model for the Church was outlined by Christ through demonstration of His servant-leadership throughout His earthly walk and His actual words in Matthew 20.”
I am just a lover of Jesus Christ….I do not have any ministry interns to proof-read my writing!
Overly Concerned,
I just re-read your post.
I didsnt check the references, so I didnt catch the error
I want to send this to every CC”Ite” i know, but it will just fall on deaf ears.
This would be a great Bible study.
I think you are really astute and the imagery of the chaismatic tree hugging LF (Sure you meant him), and the whole “love” thing…you are so right.
There is so much I can comment on.
I am glad that you came here and made this post.
Alex–please start a new thread with this post….!!
PS.. Ministry interns…hmm…I have heard of that!
Hope they get a huge cut of the prophets…..I mean profits
Overly Concerned, that was a remarkable analysis and commentary on the Calvary Chapel dynamic.
If you can, please email me at agrenier7 at gmail dot com
I’d like to make what you wrote its own article. I don’t need to publish your identity, but I’d personally like to know who you are if that’s ok.
If not, no problem and thanks for sharing. Your words are very wise. Welcome to the blog.
Wow, that is a fantastic summary, Overly Concerned!
Overly Concerned said,
“This lawsuit should not be a defamation suit it should be a lawsuit of business interference and the whole CC organization should come on board with CCV to bring the suit because that is really the problem at the heart of this.”
“When people highlight the truth about CC their business is affected. It is time they start calling things by the proper name. This lawsuit is an admission of guilt in the eyes of the “Highest Court” though. It shows a lack of feeling or compassion and a lack of the love of Christ.”
“The fact that the rest of CC has not stepped in to correct CCV is a spiritual indictment against them. They have been measured in the balance for the love of Christ and found grossly lacking in it.”
Had to repost these points. Well put.
I think I will start using the terms, “Business Interference” and the “Stalin Model Leadership.”
Alex,
I have no problem with you using this as you see fit if it helps people to see the truth. I will let you know about revealing my identity. Continued prayer and blessings to you and everyone on this site.
Overly Concerned
CC really does act like a for-profit Corporation.
It’s not defamation to report the truth about abuses, corruption, spiritual abuse, cover up etc.
If you get sick at a Restaurant, you have the right to report it and warn others so they don’t get sick too.
In fact, from a Religious Conviction perspective, I think one has the obligation and instruction from scripture to warn others (the public, the church as a whole etc).
Visalian
SDSU – you go to one game and that makes you an SDSU expert? I’ll have you know that SDSU passed on an invitation to the SEC for fear of tearing’ those rednecks up.
Andy
Thanks for the correction. I guess I was thinking of the sitcom starring Leland Stanford
Well, the Calvary Chapels need a lot of reform since they are no over a 1000. Its a messed, people back in the 1970′s that were influence would be shocked what happen. Its a shame that the other protestant churches in the 1970′s didn’t want to reach out to the youing people that much and made Calvary bigger than it would have if it faced competition among those youth of the 1970′s.
Not all that glitters is gold.
Overly Concered…..Amen and Amen
This is sooooo right on.
My daughter and I have been talking about this whole situation and she said ,
“Mom its almost safer to just study the Word at home instead of going to church, huh”
After what I have experienced with Bob Grenier, I agree.
You words have actually brought some healing to my soul.
People are so afraid of Bob Grenier in this community. That ought to say something…people are afraid of a pastor? WHY?
I like how you expressed it, Overly Concerned.
That’s a good question Tina. It is somewhat true. When Bob Grenier determines that you are a threat to him, he has historically gone on a smear campaign behind the scenes to discredit that person’s reputation. He is afraid of no one. Some have described him as a bulldog. I have found it amazing that pastors in the Visalia area, after witnessing many of his shananigans over the years, have not confronted him and set him straight. But obviously no public official will risk his employment to go head to head with a bulldog. Essentially they ignore him unless they are duped and unsuspecting of his sinister ways. I think most current pastors are extremely sensitive to confrontation and any form of church discipline. They are mostly autonomous, and function independent of the other churches. There seems to be no genuine concern for community faithfulness, and our mutual need for accountability as a city of believers.
I don’t view Bob Grenier as a pastor. He hasn’t pastored anyone in his career. He simply teaches the Word of God, and even that is a suspicious act. He visits virtually no one in need. He virtually prays for no one in need. He has never shown any long term concern for the well-being of anyone in his church. He has hurt many people and has never in my knowledge apologized for anything. He uses his efforts to gather people around him to listen to the Word of God. He is an orator. He reads script. He pontificates. He makes veiled threats from the pulpit. He points fingers of condemnation. He sets himself apart from all the others as the balanced one. He is not alert and sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s leading. (Once he had an entire board of advisors pray at length about whether to finance a large church project, and when they were asked what the Lord was leading them to conclude, they said unanimously that the Lord said wait…yet Bob Grenier refused their counsel and proceeded on his own. God doesn’t speak two different messages.) So Bob Grenier is not a church leader. He is a CEO of a convenient non-profit business.
Tina…there is a growing distrust of Christian leadership. No question. But I would not let Bob Grenier define what healthy Christian leadership looks like. Remind and assure your daughter that there does exist good churches, and good pastors. I have known many. BG is the only one in my life that proved to be a charlatan. Bob has no right to harass you, or color how you see the world around you. Practice seeing him as he really is. Shrink him down to the size of an ant in your mind. He has no power. He has proved to be a fool. Just his recent threat to sue you shows the desperation, vileness, steel-hardness of his heart. He shouldn’t be given the attention of a normal human being. He has sub human tendancies. Why be afraid of a person like that. Surely you are not afraid of him. I know that. And others are wising up to his ways. Rebuild your daughter’s trust in the Biblical view of the Church, and seek ways to be part of that.
Tina,
Out of the mouth of babes..
My kids too have been affected by hypocritical leadership.
It has only hardened them..but ultimately God has given them discernment as He has your daughter.
I think it can take years of recuperation and trust again.
Home church or just sitting with our kids and studying with them one on one..well, thats what God commanded of parents in the OT in Deuteronomy…it can’t be a bad thing.
Whats wrong with strengthening our relationship with God without the “Middle man” when the “middle man” is not a representative of Jesus?
I am praying for you and for your family.
A big hug to you all.
No I’m not afraid, I’m angry. I’m angry that this type of person is still acting as a pastor in our community. It’s time for him to own up to all his vile behavior, IMO. He is a bully, but bullies once brought before the multitude are not a bully anymore. People do know what type of man he is and what is being said of him is not good. I’m taking a stand for those voices who choose to stay silent, for the many, many good people he abused and cast aside on the road. I’m standing up for Paul, Alex and Geoff. I’m not a coward and I will not be bullied around by him anymore. Have I shed tears? Yes I have, many over these issues….but unless someone stands up and asks question then the abuse of OTHERS continues. Do we not care for others as God’s people anymore? I think we do, and I believe God will show Himself powerful on our behalf.
And thank you to all of you who have been praying for us. It has truely made a difference, and has given me peace and power.
Shadrack, Meshack and Abendnego….has been coming to my mind . Who showed up in the furnace? ; – )
God is real and He is hearing the cries of His people.
(Hope I spelled the names right, lol)
I find it easier to remember the Veggie Tales translation: MyShack, YourShack, and ABungalow.
Overly Concerned,
That was the most thorough synopsis I’ve read of the CC movement and the general malaise that continues to exist within the day to day affairs of its organization! Thank you!
Alex,
It definitely should be posted as a new article entry! If enough people were just to read that article alone, it certainly has the potential to be the additionally strong impetus along with your blog to get more people to start peeling back the layers of the CC onion!
I would so love to see everything of note from this blog about CC go so overwhelmingly viral that people wouldn’t be able to help but take notice of what’s going on with the NON-denominational DENOMINATION of CALVARY CHAPEL, INC., and AFFILIATES empire!
So wanting to post it on every CC facebook page that exists out there, including the one I was formerly a non-member member of, but it would probably just get deleted by deceitful admins and the pastors (Executive Directors— ahem… MOSES’ in Charge).
There is something very powerful when a group of people stand shoulder to shoulder and say, “enough is enough”. Tina, Not Alone, Edna, Alex – - you represent all of the voices who have been silenced by abuse, fear, intimidation and bully tactics. And although your story is about CCV, you are representing the bigger CC and other spiritually abusive churches. Many will stumble across this site simply by searching “spiritual abuse”. Many are watching, learning, identifying with your experiences, questioning their situations from afar and you will never know how many people have been impacted by your strong stance for the truth. More people read blogs than leave comments. Your example can be life changing for someone else.
It’s not an easy battle. Stay focused. Ask God for strength. You are doing the right thing.
I actually did post on the blog that was CCA when it the site was first initiated. They had a pastor’s wife from Sasckatchwan, Canada contact me by email. She was very concerned about me posting anything that might put CC in a negative light. She had shared that she and her husband were sent there to plant a church. But people were resistant because word had the population that although the message was good, the leadership left little to be desired.
She kept telling how I should forgive and that everyone sins and that all churches had their weeknesses. She had attended and graduated from CCBC Murrieta. I attempted talk with her, but she has been thorougly indoctrinated to give the same answers we have heard over, and over, and over again. She then tried to tell me that I needed to stop being bitter. Never told her anything about my situation. So I simply stated to the Moses Model is unscriptural and even though it seemed all right to her, I suggested she come to this sight and tried to be more objective and put aside what she had learned at CCBE.
I also told her not to blame those who have been mistreated and abused, then ignored and made out to be the bad guys. I told her that people are not coming to their church because they know truth when they hear, and nobody wants to get hurt by a church.
So, Julie Anne Smith—-ditto in what you said.
I actually did post on the blog that was CCA when the site was first initiated. They had a pastor’s wife from Saskatchewan, Canada contact me by email. She was very concerned about me posting anything that might put CC in a negative light. She had shared that she and her husband was sent there to plant a church. But people were resistant because word had reached to their population, that although the message was good, the leadership really didn’t care about the flock.
She kept telling how I should forgive and that everyone sins and that all churches had their weeknesses. She had attended and graduated from CCBC Murrieta. I attempted talk with her, but she has been thorougly indoctrinated to give the same answers we have heard over, and over, and over again. She then tried to tell me that I needed to stop being bitter. Never told her anything about my situation. So I simply stated to her, the Moses Model is unscriptural, and even though it seemed all right to her, I suggested she come to this site and tried to be more objective, by putting aside what she had learned at CCBC to enable her to hear and to listen something contrary to what she has been sheltered and kept from knowing. I asked her, if she was more loyal to God than she was to CC, because in order for her to hear the truth and to understand what the root of the problem was, she needed to make she was following after Christ, rather than man.
I also told her not to blame those who have been mistreated and abused, then ignored and made out to be the bad guys. I told her that people are not coming to their church because they know truth when they hear, and nobody wants to get hurt by a church.
So, Julie Anne Smith—-ditto in what you said. I can imagine the shock that this young lady might have experience if she and her husband gave this site a visit. I know it could put a crimp in their plans for their future to be CC pastor/wife. Hopefully, there calling is much surer than the siren call of the Moses Model.
I heart sheck
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOhehaehehahhhhaahee—–that is hilarious. Thanks!!!
I don’t understand why he would attack Alex, his son. He’s digging himself deeper into a hole. If Alex is lying (which I “believe” he isn’t), then he should publicly defend himself with facts, and try to convince Alex in private. That’s what any loving father would do (the whole lead-by-example).
It’s not rocket science. It’s what Chuck Smith did when discipling his son, the pastor, when the son was clearly wrong. (not that I believe Alex is wrong, but if Bob believes so, he needs to approach this differently).
I don’t understand how Bob Greinier can have a flock to pastor after seeing this unfold. Every step he has taken has been wrong, biblically and spiritually. He has been caught in so many sins, and we’re not talking about the ones Alex accuses him of, but his lying about the whole situation. And this guy is suppose to be the example for others to follow? Wow… I hate to say it, but people who go to CC Visalia must be dumb.
Instead of defending himself, he attacks Alex. Yep. Classy. Just what Jesus would’ve done – NOT.
“I also told her not to blame those who have been mistreated and abused, then ignored and made out to be the bad guys. I told her that people are not coming to their church because they know truth when they hear, and nobody wants to get hurt by a church. ”
EXACTLY. Why start a church if you don’t care for the flock? They might as well be insurance salesman, or whatever profession that needs the gift of gab. I’m glad people are starting to see how fraudantly churches and pastors have become. Social media is a tool, it can be used for good or evil. In this case, it feels mean, but it’s for good. People need to know what’s going on, they need to be wise as serpents.
“Bob was a former drug dealer and drug smuggler. ”
Well… not being a member of CC Visalia, this explains a lot. I have firsthand experience from ex-druggies, and anyone who says they’re “miraculously healed” after abusing drugs for decades, is full of baloney. Especially if the drug was steroids, I’ve firsthand seen how roid-rages can destroy a person, who would be “normal” if he could properly control his hormones.
That being said, why doesn’t Bob just come out, and admit it. Then repent. His congregation must love him, why else would they stick by him through this bull#$%. He could blame the drugs. He could mend relationships with his family. It would make him more “human” to his flock, and they could relate to him more.
Bob, if you’re reading this, God already gave you an out. But you’re so filled with vengeance, and hate (and probably guilt and self-loathing) that you can’t make it right.
Sorry if I sound like I have all the answers, but any outsider looking in can see what’s going on, but it gets harder when people are scared and emotional.
Re: Post #43.
“It would make him more “human” to his flock, and they could relate to him more.”
Not only that — it might bring him closer to God.
I do not know Bob Grenier nor have I ever attended CCV. But I have attended enough CC’s to be of the opinion that many CC Pastors think they are above it all. They point fingers at other individuals and groups but don’t really look within themselves to repent or ask forgiveness for any wrong-doing.
Appearances and presentation style seem to be what matters the most to CC pastors and adherents.
I am not perfect — nor do I pretend to be. But I will never again be part of a church or church organization wherein the leaders do not or will not lead by example.
Re: Post #39.
“She was very concerned about me posting anything that might put CC in a negative light.”
I hate to say this — but how often has Calvary Chapel put others in a negative light? During my years of involvement with several CC’s I witnessed CC Pastors and adherents put down and bash many other denominations, religious groups, and individuals. Because of these comments,accusations, and hate campaigns I was left with the impression that Calvary Chapel was the only true church for many years.
I my city, CC adherents are responsible for taking down event posters and announcements from public bulletin boards placed by “other” churches.
Who is Calvary Chapel to worry about being put in a “negative light”? They have been doing it to others for years!
I heart sheck, lol you had me cracking up with the veggie thing…
Kathy, I love your sense of humor as well. They are not dumb, just listening to lies, IMO. I think most of them now are seniors and probably dont have a computer to search these things out. Who even knows what Bob is saying to them. Having set under him for almost 20 years I can tell you he is the master of deception, IMO
Example…
It was a Wednesday night, Bob began to tell the church that Glick had retired to travel. A man who was obviously upset stood up and said something like “Bob why are you lying?” Bob called the ushers over to have him removed.
Every hair on my head stood up and I wanted to look back to see who that was but I just froze. My first thought was… my pastor wouldn’t lie… would he?
Bob was so smooth. He very calmly turns back to the crowd and opologizes, and says something like,”I’m sorry he has planted seeds of doubt in your mind but he is really traveling, etc”
Later it was mentioned to me that Glick was going to bring somthing regarding the finances to light. Yep, Bob ‘s MO…get rid of him. Replace truth with lies or half truths. Not good,because eventually the truth comes out.
Hennie-
You make some good points.
Hate Campaign…interesting.
Maybe the megachurches are more “tolerant” now because that draws in more of the crowds and helps the numbers increase.
Tina,
It is true that the internet has given us all information that we would never know about.
Thats how I foudn out about Lonnie Frisbee…when I spent a weekend Googling the Calvary Chapel Movement. Then I learned all about him and saw youtubes.
I was shocked I never knew this before. Like it was a secret that it was Lonnie, not CS who really started CC.
Most seniors have computers now. At least all the ones I know.
Can hardly do anything these days without one.
So these people are not able to get the information about what is going on?
Usually, although they won’t admit it, this kind of info spreads like wildfire in the church.
Lol actually dumb is a good word for it. Well its easier to believe others are lying than your pastor, IMO. If you believe your pastor is lying then you now have a problem. Most people don’t like confrontation.
Tina…you are right about the Glick affair.
The man that stood up was Scott Dinkins. Scott was a professional investigator for a few lawyers in town. Scott had recently completed a Phd from a respected university in England, and was no man’s fool. He was very bright, and he knew the low-down on Bob Grenier. When he stood up, he was not only exercising a spiritual right to hold a pastor accountable for false statements but he was exercising his freedom of speech given to him by the Constitution of the USA. Bob lied that night, as well as when he lied about Jim Souza’s decision to move on.
What irritates me the most in all this is that certain men are stealing the spotlight rightfully reserved for God the Father, Jesus our Savior, and the Holy Spirit our Comforter.
I have no problem with Chuck Smith receiving respect as a pastor. He has no right to be treated like a rock star. He has no right getting wealthy from the gospel. He should be receiving a fair salary, with the balance in a trust fund managed by an honorable committee of third-party individuals. He should never have a net worth in the millions from the sale of sermons, or from business generated from the sacrificial gifts of others. That goes for the other ‘rock stars’ in CC like Greg Laurie, Skip Heitzig, Raul Ries, etc.
As far as Bob Grenier…he should not be getting this much publicity because he feeds off of it. I hope this public attention turns quickly into a summons to give an account for the tragedy he has caused in so many people’s lives. It’s probably time for him to give his own account under oath so perjury can be applied when he is found guilty.
Re: Post #39:
“She was very concerned about me posting anything that might put CC in a negative light.”
I don’t know whether to laugh or scream every time I think of Calvary Chapel worrying about being put in a “negative light.” What goes around — comes around.
They did it to themselves, IMO.
CC has a history of casting a “negative light” on many churches and religious groups, never caring about the damage they were inflicting or the fact that they (CC) were putting others in a “negative light.”
IMO, CC can dish it out — but they can’t take it.
“Lonnie Frisbee”
Be careful when talking about LF and his history, because you will be required to include all his history. LF is not a model of someone I would want my children to follow at all.
What LF is a model of is God’s grace for those whose sin becomes so deep the consequences overwhelm them. Praise God and the final work of Jesus our Messiah!
Careful
If you do some reading here, you will know that many of us (myself included) have written much about LF. We know all about him. The point was that until Lonnie arrived, CCCM was just an “average” size church. He was a friend of one of CS’s kids, and CS and his wife were already middle aged when they realized his appeal to the youth. I had read that he went to the Vineyard and then Derek Prince ministries in Ft Lauderdale and died in Ft Lauderdale of AIDS in the 1980′s. (Just in case anyone reading here didnt know). CS mentions him only as “Lonnie” in one his books (forget which one), and not much is said about him. There is a Youtubeof CS at Lonnies funeral.
When I first found out about Lonnie, it was through a Documentary I found online by a man named David De Sabatino (spelling?)
I actually had e-mail contact with him, and he shared many things. It was fascinating to me.
What you have posted reflects the problem that arises when someone comes on here and only reads one post.
Hannah:
I don’t know how you really feel about Lonnie F, but I do understand you are trying to use how he was removed from CC history as an example of CS’s deceptive and controlling style. Just so you know my knowledge of LF is limited to internet accounts like Wiki and the movie and I find him basically a very good example of where the church goes wrong in elevating charismatic men to high positions.
Additionally you have to understand I too was part of what many would call the “Jesus” movement of the early seventies but in a different part of the country. It didn’t take me long after attending a Vineyard to see the lack of any sort of biblical discipline in favor of experiential fervor. And when I read of LF I would some what parallel him with modern day preacher/evangelist such as Todd Bently who lead people astray to a nonsustaining experience falling short of walking in the true love of God.
It has been said LF could be compared to Samson, a man who never fell for idols (but had one fall on him) or gods and yet could not stop filling his own lusts and desires for what ever he saw. Lonnie Frissbee died of aids as a consequence of his on going pursuits in the same manner as Samson did pursuing his. The whole point of which is God’s grace can even save the most wretched men and women amongst us who call Jesus Lord.
God is our hero and savior, not Lonnie Frissbee, Chuck Smith or any other pastor of a mega-church or movement. So let’s not be wowed by the charisma of any man except Jesus our Messiah and, like Alex, be fervent when men come in the name of Jesus being willing to stand up and say, “NO you can’t abuse those whom Jesus came to save!”
And Hannah I read all the posts, I am just commenting on yours.
Careful @ 55
“Alex, be fervent when men come in the name of Jesus being willing to stand up and say, “NO you can’t abuse those whom Jesus came to save!”
Well done, good and faithful servant of the Lord.
Linda said:
“But to do this in the way that Alex has suggested is a chance for you to be finally rid you of the shell of that old man that you have carried around in the secrets places of your own heart. It is not what God wants for you and it is not what he wants for your family, be it among the body of Christ or those who was once place in your care to care for and to love. Stand up, Bob and finally be a real man of the Lord.”
Hard for Bob to do that when he is not even a Christian
Careful,
Very well thought out statement initially and, also, afterward, in response to Hannah’s comments on Lonnie Frisbee and his involvement with CS and the Jesus/CC movement.
Peoples comments/information from the likes of Alex, Hannah, Julie Anne, yourself and many others on this site are much appreciated by people who are finding themselves ill-deposed from even the lowliest ranks of ministry or places of fellowship from within the CC movement, myself included, and who continue to struggle with a sense of spiritual detachment from the folds or places they once thought to be Christian sanctuaries or safe havens for their walks and discipleships with Christ.
My last comment (#58) should be expanded to include those who find themselves dishearteningly removed as well from other places besides the CC fellowships… such as is the case with Julie Anne, who was part of another independent fundamentalist church..
Solomon @ 57 – I once had a conversation with someone who suggested it was impossible for a pastor to be an unbeliever. Their logic was the evil in their soul would be screaming from the mountaintops to get away from the Word of God.
Then I recalled satan’s mastery of the scriptures, and how often he quoted them to Jesus & God (albeit with a little twisting). Notice how he didn’t explode or turn into dust after reading them?
Why should it surprise us then to see pastors who have ‘everyone fooled but God’? satan is the master of deception and is perfectly capable of influencing anyone, including pastors.
Careful,
I don’t have any feelings for LF, and in my post I was not making any comment as far as his being removed, etc.
I was just responding to Tina in regards to the older people not having computers and not knowing what is going on with BG. I brought up the fact that I would probably not know about LF if it weren’t for the internet. Then I brought up LF as an example of how you can find information on the internet now that you would never know about.
From Tina @46 I think most of them now are seniors and probably dont have a computer to search these things out.
I didnt know that in bringing that up, as you say that I needed to be” careful to tell the whole story”…I kind of feel unnecessarily reprimanded….
…I am also not sure what the “whole story” is. I think the most important fact is that CS takes credit for starting the CC movement, when clearly it was LF who ignited the fire. If I painted him as someone to be admired, it was only because my reason for doing so was to prove how valuable the internet is for information.
Wow I am tired….I never intended to paint him as someone to be admired. I deleted a part of the sentence that changed the meaning of that sentence.
Hannah:
I have been at and involved with Christian ministry for almost 40 years and I apologize if I seem sensitive about men like LF. I appreciate your comment about CS and his tactics, but when it comes to situations like LF I may have done the same as Chuck Smith and CC. Just saying…
I came to this site because of a multitude of experiences I have had with CC pastors and their cult-like control over people, something I have never experienced from any man in ministry before or since.
Now Steve said this, “Why should it surprise us then to see pastors who have ‘everyone fooled but God’? satan is the master of deception and is perfectly capable of influencing anyone, including pastors.” Have I ever been “fooled?” I’d be lying if I told you the answer was no, but my foundation was never a ministry led by a man so God has gotten me through these things in the past and I believe will continue to do so in the future.
I stopped worrying or questioning if the pastor, priest or teacher is saved awhile ago and focus on what they say and how they show it. As far as Chuck Smith goes all one has to do is read “The Distinctives” and it become very clear about how he manages his ministry and I don’t want any part of it. Not the kind of man I would call “Pappa.”
Back to reading and appreciating what you all are saying. Thanks and again Hannah I apologize for offending you in any way.
Hannah is right about Lonnie as i was there when CCCM was just starting to recruit young people – I was only a teenager at the time in 1968. I would never have gone to CCCM if it weren’t for Lonnie and other young people he was leading there. Chuck S. was not someone who could reach the young adults and teenagers of the 60′s that were reached but Lonnie could. I would have never been interested if it was just Chuck S. and the few older middle aged and older adults that were there with him. Lonnie was definitely used as a catalyst to get CCCM going with the so called Jesus movement there. Chuck Smith said many times how he believed Lonnie was annointed by God and he said you can just feel it when Lonnie comes in the room, etc. Chuck and Lonnie were together all the time and baptised many young people at Corona Del Mar in the cove there. And Greg Laurie, a teenager at the time, was lead in by Lonnie also. Lonnie used to come over to the high school too where alot of kids like Greg listened and came to CCCM.The movement would not have happened at CCCM without Lonnie and he was very respected by Chuck Smith at that time. Greg Laurie as a teenager started hanging out at CCCM all the time, was a good looking teen with long hair, and Chuck got him into a ministry in Riverside and like Lonnie he was this young ”cool” minister. He stills tries to be that but his youthful looks have faded. Anyway – a little history for you —–
As part of my deprogramming after leaving the CC I was bound to, I really dug into the Word and prayed for the Holy Spirit to teach me about certain tough parts of it because I knew that even though CC was wrong about a lot of things I had to have a solid, biblical understanding as to why and also be able to face the Word head-on to see where I was wrong about anything in my own life. I found out that there are many passages of scripture being taught the wrong way in places like CC to continue the manipulation that keeps seats filled. I would like to share some of those areas here if that is okay. Blessings to everyone.
Overly Concerned: I would definitely be interested in reading what you have to say. As I have been studying spiritual abuse over the last several years, I have found spiritual abusers often use the same verses incorrectly – especially when trying to promote their self-appointed authority over congregants. I’ve written about it a number of times on my blog. In fact, it’s so predictable among spiritual abusers, I jokingly say that all spiritual abusers must have graduated from the same Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS) because they use the same verses to abuse, same tactics to abuse. It truly is creepy how they all seem the same – just change the name of the Church, name of pastor.
One example my church used was Romans 16:17 which talks about marking and avoiding. This marking and avoiding refers to false teachers, not congregants. However, my former pastor had a Mark and Avoid list and on that list he named congregants or former congregants who were to be shunned. It was read each communion. If anybody associated with anyone listed on the Mark and Avoid list, they too would be added to the Mark and Avoid list. That is a very creepy way of twisting scripture to exert control over congregants. This kind of thing is common in abusive churches. (PS – I use the word “creepy” a lot because my pastor sued me for using that word – - and then he decided to withdraw that word from the lawsuit – - – it gives me great pleasure to say it: creepy, creepy, creepy – lol)
Sreve,
Your #60 is well said. I am always concerned though when we can conclude without a doubt that Bob is not a Christian (post #57). I met Bob, I don’t like Bob and I don’t trust Bob. I also believe that Bob is guilty of all that he is accused of but I wonder if anyone besides God can say whether he is or isn’t a Christian? Fruit inspectors are a far cry from being omnipotent.
Matthew 7:15-20
King James Version (KJV)
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
1 John 2-4
1 John 5-2 NKJV
1 Thessalonian 2:16
The last Scripture should be:
1 Thessalonians 4
It amazes me when some will say we cannot determine if one is a Christian or not. I thin this has much to do with the teaching that causes many to think that as long as we say we believe in Jesus, then we are covered in the midst of practicing a lifestyle of sin.
Yet, the Scriptures tells us 3 things:
1) What a wolf looks like.
2) What an unsaved person practices.
3) What to do with the leaven that enters into the body of Christ.
For in James 2:14-26 and then, in II Peter 2, these things are made even clearer concerning those in leadership in particular.
It would seem to me that although we know scripture or ought to know it, we act as though we do not. And so, we sit on the side of the road as a spectator as we watch the these things unravel before our very eyes. Yet God has given us all that we need by His Word, his example, the teachers and prophets, and Holy Spirit to identify that which is not to be even named among those in the body of Christ.
Yet we walk in disobedience behaving as though this the other guys problem instead. Or that when we stand before the Lord, then these things will be settled, which is true. But at the same time, we are told over and over and over again that we who are of the body of Christ are to get rid of the leaven and hold those to an account that will not and or do particpate in these things by either directly committing them or stand by and permit them to continue.
Re; #68
“Steve” not Sreve
oops… “omniscient” not omnipotent. Sorry Linda nobody but God knows if someone is saved or not. As I said, I dislike the man and I believe he is guilty but for any created being to determine who is saved and who isn’t is above our pay grade. There are many that I have met and wondered how they possibly could know Jesus but only Jesus knows for sure.
@ 69 I don’t know what’s going on with my computer, or it could just be me (LOL)
Scripture correction:
2 John 1:9
3 John 1:11
Jude 1:4-23
I think we have been quite passive in being obedient towards addressing the leaven in CC. I think because of the passivity, that we have become desensitized to the leaven that is among us and have in turned been like the forg in the slow boiling pot. I think that because of this we have permitted leaven to take over the body of Christ and we no longer are striving to be a Holy People, but rather have adopted the cliche that permits sin to run rampant within CC. It’s as if Scripture has been made anemic and replaced with a type of what I referred to as “wantom” grace.
Yet in truth, God’s Word is very clear on these things. And Pauls tells us this as well.
Hi Covered,
Would you also say this about Hitler, because he claim to be a Christian.
Sorry if I upset you Linda but you don’t know for sure who is and who isn’t a born again believer. We all know people who behave like Bob and we know people who behave like angels but none of us know who will be in heaven and who wont. If you think that you know that’s fine but only One knows for sure. I don’t recall Paul teaching that we know who will be in heaven. In fact when Paul shared that Demas had forsaken him for loving the present world that doesn’t mean that he wont be in heaven. Do not twist my words, I am not saying Demas will be in heaven, I’m saying no one but Jesus and His Father knows.
If you choose to put a label on me that’s fine but you don’t know me well enough to do that. Erring on the side of grace isn’t a bad label though in my opinion. As far as being passive again you don’t know me and you may be surprised.
I’m going to post an article by Matt Slick from the CARM.
http://carm.org/questions/other-questions/how-can-i-tell-if-someone-saved-or-not
NIV Jude1:22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear–hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Looking at these verses, I would say that there has to be some degree on discernment towards those who are going to burn, if they are not seriously warned and counseled.
Linda,
I don’t know about Hitler. I can tell you that many think that Jeffery Dalmer who kidnapped, murdered and even ate his victims accepted the Lord. I also heard that on his death bed that Darwin apologized for his nonsense and recommitted his life to the Lord. Whether or not any of this is true, only God knows for sure.
Do you believe that Ananias & Sapphira will be in hell or heaven?
Linda, my point is that nobody knows for sure. I believe that God’s salvation is available to all who believe and ask.
There are many psychopaths who claims to be Christian. By the way all psychopaths are narcissists, as well. But not all narcissist are psychopaths. Narcissist can be Antisocials, Borderlines, and Histrionic of the current DSM characters descriptives.
All the above know exactly what they are doing, they just don’t care because they cannot see beyond themselves. They can fake love, empathy, and being whatever it is that will get them in the front door and in a choice position. For one purpose only: power and control. They will and they can look very genuine, humble, and ever so godly.
Yet if you know what you are looking at, you can mark them out for what and who they really are.
So would say these are Christian?
I’m not saying that everyone that we come across we can know if they are saved, or not. But I do believe that there are far more than what we think that by their fruits, we can know who is and who is not. I think by and large, we don’t know what the above persons look like when in fact, we are told in scripture that they take on the very same characteristics of Satan himself. What more for those that are practicing such things, they are not the children of God, but the children of the enemy. Scriptures tells us that those who practices such things are children of the devil and that we should not even eat with such a one who calls themselves a brother (or sister), and do these things.
I thought about what Solomon stated. My initial thought was how utterly sad and tragic for BG to have fallen to such a state. When he could have repented and been used so much better by the Lord. His legacy he has left his children, his wife, and others is not one that can be ignored and noted among those who also hides such things. My final thought was can he repent or has God turned him over to be a reprobate. I pray not, for his own soul and for the those who could benefit from a testimony that would bring much glory and healing to his family, the body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God.
Linda,
I understand where you are coming from but my point is, was and continues to be that nobody knows but God. Apparently judging by what Matt Slick said in the link you provided, he agrees with me that “we must be careful” and “its a serious thing”. There just is no evidence that man, created beings can know for sure. Why do you want to be able to draw the conclusion that anyone is saved? Leaving that to God and praying for anyone who we doubt believes seems more in line with what our responsibility is. Do I judge Bob? Yes I do. Do I think he’s guilty? Yes I do. I know Bob and I think he is a liar and a bully and a manipulator. Do I think he’s saved? I don’t know and only Jesus and God the Father do. That’s the way it should be.
“Finally, we must be very careful not to be too judgmental too quickly. It is a serious thing to say that someone is or is not saved. If you are unsure about the salvation of someone, then you should pray for that person, ask God to work in a person’s life, and ask the Lord to give you wisdom.”
Dear Concerned,
This is true, we do not know if at the point of their death, what state their salvation is in.
But while they are alive congregating within the body of Christ, I believe we can and that we are told to discern these things, if nothing else, but to protect ourselves and the body of Christ.
You asked: “Do you believe that Ananias & Sapphira will be in hell or heaven?”
I don’t think this is a good example because Scripture does not give us enough information on these 2 people. It does say that they lied to the Holy Spirit, by bearing a false witness regarding what they did with the money they recieved from selling the land.
In Hebrews, it speaks of God chastising His children, even to the point of removing them off the face of the earth to save them from continuing in their way that would cast them into hell.
So in this case, it could be one of the two, either they died and were condemned to hell, or they died and are sleeping in the Lord. But this is not the case with those we live among who we see more than just one occasion of a person committing such things. Those we know that are practicing, living a lifestyle, and rationalizing such things, we can say they are not Christians. Not only that, the Scriptures tell us this as well. Will they ever come to know Christ? That remains to be seen, but if we permit leaven to be practiced within the church, rather than to expose it, then will we not be held to an account for not plucking these out of the fire?
I guess we are talking about 2 different things here:
1) Can we say if a person is a Christian who is fellowshipping among us?
2) Prior to death and confessing Christ as their Savior, are we able to judge the genuiness of this confession?
3) Are we, as Christians having the Holy Spirit, the Word of God able to judge those things in the church to protect it and to deal with the leaven while marking those who are wolves in sheep clothings?
As for Jeffrey Dalhmer, he is not Darwin by any stretch of the imagination. He is the worse kind of psychopath one can ever imagine. That type of person cannot change even if he wanted to do so. He snapped a long time ago by the choices he was making all along the way. How in the world people can fall for this is beyond my understanding except to know people who do possess the love of God in their hearts wants to believe otherwise that this is a possibility. But when you know what I and other clinicians know, you will understand that this same gesture he made in giving an appearance of becoming a Christian is the same manner of manipulation he used in taking hostage his victims.
Concerned,
I have comment #70 being hung up moderation right now.
I am agreeing with you that at the time of death, we do not know.
But while they are alive walking among us, by their fruits we know. If a person has behaved himself as BG has towards his family and the body of Christ, then Paul himself have told you he is not one of us. Unless, he repents and bares the fruit of that repentance. BG has not repented, yet the evidence is set before us of the person that he is.
I agree with you and Matt in that we must be careful for none of us knows “at the time” of a person demise what takes place between the Lord and them. But, once again we do know while they are walking among who the wolves are and who they are not if we call sin, sin and leaven, leaven and for those who are practicing such a lifestyle, they are not a Christian. At least that is what my Bible says.
Concerned,
Thank you for being patient with me.
Let me ask you this. If a person is practicing adultery, stealing from his employer, molesting his sons, beating his wife, and then tells you that he is a Christian, and have done no wrong. Are you telling me that you can not say for sure if he is or is not?
Sorry Linda but Jesus died as much for Jeffrey Dahlmer as He did for you and for me. Again, you assume much about me and what I have seen and what I know. Whatever “clinical” experience you have and whatever pain you have suffered at the hands of an idiot husband or pastor has nothing to do with the ability to judge whether or not someone is saved or going to hell.
Bob should be punished for his deeds as severely as allowed by the law. The same law that God put in place per Romans. He should not ever be allowed to be a pastor. He deserves whatever punishment is allowable for what he’s done to God’s people, to Alex and to Alex’s brothers. As far as believing in Christ as his Savior or where he will spend his eternity, we are not capable of determining that, only God is.
That’s all I want to say. Originally, I wanted to respond to Solomon R saying Bob is not a Christian. Well Bob is an idiot and a bunch of other things but as far as being a Christian, we don’t really know that do we? I know that he doesn’t behave like one…
Linda,
Per your #81, I enjoy going back and forth with you and hope that you don’t take it personal. For the record, CC burned me and my family and my story doesn’t compare to many here including yours but I am speaking as a pastor not a cc pastor.
You asked, “Let me ask you this. If a person is practicing adultery, stealing from his employer, molesting his sons, beating his wife, and then tells you that he is a Christian, and have done no wrong. Are you telling me that you can not say for sure if he is or is not?”
My answer is that this person is a liar also!
But as far as being one of God’s children? I don’t know but he sure doesn’t look like it.
Linda, my desire is that Bob get all that he deserves but I want him to be restored as well. I have to hope that it is not only possibe that he be restored but that it happen in a way that reconciliation with God, his family, Alex & his church body is evident to everybody. I have to hope that because God restored me and you.
This is not being too passive it’s hope. I trust in what God says and He wants to restore Bob. Until I get to heaven (I hope
, I won’t know where Bob is going and nobody else does either except the One who makes that decision.
The Bible from beginning to end tells us who is of the Lord and who is not. For instance:
English Standard Version (©2001)
By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 2:3-6
Why do we then draw back in determining these things and calling what is of the devil, evil and what is of God, Holy? Why do we waffle when God’s Word tells us to do otherwise. A wolf would love us to be so timid as to draw back from calling them out and to separating the sheep from him. That means having to say they are not numbered among us. Do we do this rashly or without due consideration and evidence—No. Of course not. But once we have determine that what we know is not of the Lord is being committed then we take these things and we deal with it openly and before the congregation for the very reasons Paul told us. As a warning to others and to enable that person to repent and to be saved.
You know Concerned, sometimes I think people hold to this saying we cannot determine if a person is a Christian, or not because we really don’t know. But at other times, such as those things that have been brought forth by Alex and others on this site have been committed, it’s a slam-dunk. For such a person doing these cannot possibly possess the Holy Spirit.
Why does it matter whether Bob is Christian or not? How does that affect this situation in any way, shape or form? What am I missing here?
In my journey out of fundamentalism I have learned two valuable life lessons:
1) For me, the Bible is no longer a magic answer book for all of life’s questions & dillemmas, sometimes, and I can only speak for myself, there are no answers.
2) If not tempered with reason and common sense, the wooden literalism of CC’s version of the Bible over the last 40 yrs. or so , can become a source of untold misery and human suffering.
Linda Pappas: you need to be careful. Almost all of your post are filled with hateful vitriol, hardly fruits of the Spirit. It always amazes me that people like you are quick to judge someone else’s salvartion when you are guilty of the same things, possessing the same heart.
Concerned,
How funny!!!!! “he’s a liar, too.” LOL
Concerned, I know what your are saying about Jeffrey Dahlmer. God died for the whole world. And it would be my prayer and hope, such would be able to repent, but Concerned, in these cases, the free will that God gave them to do so, simply does not permit them. Because of the depravity of their minds as a result of their own life long choices.
Concerned,
Careful now, you’re losing ground when you stated: “whatever pain you have suffered at the hands of an idiot husband or pastor has nothing to do with the ability to judge whether or not someone is saved or going to hell.
What I have stated is base on Scripture and Clinical information that is wll documented. As for my personal situation, hadn’t thought about that up to this point, that is until you decided that somehow this has something to do with what had been shared.
Which it does not and that is why I do not get the two mixed up, that is because it ” has nothing to do with the ability to judge whether or not someone is saved or going to hell.
Now, I don’t why you decided to include this, but it is without merit, when you did. And when you did, you lost ground because it was saying that I based my statements in part upon my own particualr challenge that I am experiencing with my husband and CC.
That my brother in the Lord, was an error on your part. Scripture tells us that we can know them by their fruits and we are to call them out, accordingly.
I think that anyone who has the mind and heart of Christ would hope and pray for the same thing to occur for Alex and his family as you stated. I also think we need to pray for these things as well to happen. However, at the same, time it is the church, itself that God has enable through His Word and His counsel, and His Holy Spirit to equip us with the information needed to know who is walking and who is not, merely by the way we treat one another. And when we commit such atrocities as BG had committed against his family, the we as the church have an obligation and a duties to go beyond prayers and take an active part in calling him out and applying church discipline to hopefully accomplish that which will provide repentance and reconciliation with his family, the church, and God.
And if he refuses or remain silence, we are to as the church take a firmer stand and then ex-communicate him as an unbeliever. Period. Not permit him to continue being a pastor or even fellowshipping with the body of Christ. For then we are in disobedience and we participate in the very evil that is being permeated throughout the church by this type of leaven.
Julie Ann Smith
This all start back when @57 with Solomon just adding the following:
57.Solomon Rodriguez says:
October 9, 2012 at 10:25 am .Linda said:
“But to do this in the way that Alex has suggested is a chance for you to be finally rid you of the shell of that old man that you have carried around in the secrets places of your own heart. It is not what God wants for you and it is not what he wants for your family, be it among the body of Christ or those who was once place in your care to care for and to love. Stand up, Bob and finally be a real man of the Lord.”
Hard for Bob to do that when he is not even a Christian”
Then Concerned and I picked up from there.
Linda,
Your last paragraph was addressed to Concerned but I believe it was intended for me (covered). I urge you to go off line, email Alex and ask him if I am “passive” or if I am “committed” to this site or this battle. Again, you don’t know me or anything about me. I can assure you that I have a stake in this fight.
I was addressing a comment that another poster, Solomon Rodriquez wrote #57.
This was your last paragraph, “You know Concerned, sometimes I think people hold to this saying we cannot determine if a person is a Christian, or not because we really don’t know. But at other times, such as those things that have been brought forth by Alex and others on this site have been committed, it’s a slam-dunk. For such a person doing these cannot possibly possess the Holy Spirit.”
Why or how is it that you know who has the Holy Spirit? You can’t determine how much Holy Spirit someone has anymore than Solomon knows if Bob is a Christian.
Just Asking:
I must say that it grieves my heart that you are taking what I say in this manner.
If you read through Scripture, you will see that Paul was very much for church discipline and calling to an account those who would harm another in such a way that has been discribed on the site.
Sometimes, loving another means having to do that which is not pleasant. To say we should pray for these is not wrong to say, but to stop short of this and then think that this is all that one needs to do, is terribly misinformed in what Scripture tells us to also do in the way of exposing and holding one to an account.
Linda, it is comments like this that is difficult to deal with.
You said,
“Sometimes, loving another means having to do that which is not pleasant. To say we should pray for these is not wrong to say, but to stop short of this and then think that this is all that one needs to do, is terribly misinformed in what Scripture tells us to also do in the way of exposing and holding one to an account.”
You have no idea what me or others are doing for this battle! You act like you are the only one engaged in this. You don’t know about my private conversations with Alex or even with CC pastors who are watching this process very closely. There is much more going on than you realize.
Quit assuming that you know all that is happening including who is saved, who is baptized in the Spirit and who is going to heaven. It is offensive to think that Christians have such authority, we don’t.
Covered,
I am so sorry—-my mistake. I was scrolling back to find the # for the post, found it, scrolled forward and must have seen the name, Concerned, then instead of posting it to you, I put “concerned” instead.
Okay, it seems as though I am ruffling feathers right now and that is truly not my heart. Scripture does tell us who is of the Lord and who is not by the behaviors that a person manifested over a period of time or by the way a person conducts themselves towards others. I have listed some of those Scriptures. I agree with Solomon. That is my choice to do or not do. And if what I say hold firm with Scripture then it is my position is valid. Scripture states over and over and over again in many different ways that if such and such is not doing this but is behaving this way, then the love of God or the Spirit of God is not within him and He is not of Christ.
Covered, please know I do not question you and your heart at all in these matters concerning BG or any like him that call themselves Christian. My heart is knit with yours when you expressed what you would hopeuflly pray would happen. It is not my intent to question you on these things.
When I am sharing, it is knowing that may reads these post, yet at the same time not personalizing it to you, I am trying to discuss the thoughts that transpire between the two of us.
Covered,
Going back over our discussion to see if there was anything else that was said that I felt I wanted to comment upon:
“As far as believing in Christ as his Savior or where he will spend his eternity, we are not capable of determining that, only God is.
When I see a person conducting themselves as a heathen, but tells me they are in Christ, it is telling me that, that person is either lying to themselves or have been misled to believe that just because they say they believe in Christ, therefore, they are. For Scripture tells me otherwise. I am not speaking of sin that is not a lifestyle, I am speaking of that which permeates the very heart of a person who thinks nothing of what they are doing against the body of Christ and those whom they harm without a hint of remorse for having done so.
No one knows except for God at that moment we draw our last breath if at last, if we had not repented prior to this, if being given this final opportunity we surrendered to HIm.
My response to your statement:
“You can’t determine how much Holy Spirit someone has anymore than Solomon knows if Bob is a Christian.”
Actually, Covered—–I believe we can. The Bible tells us that either we are walking in the Holy Spirit or we are walking in the flesh. Romans 8:1 and Romans 8.
We either are saved and have the Holy Spirit, as a result of being saved, or we don’t.
Now, does that mean that we do not sin. No, absolutely not. But it does not give us license to sin either. For one cannot dwell with the other. And what sow from one you cannot reap from the other.
As we grow and mature in Christ we are more and more like Him. Therefore, we are to press forward, not drawing back and living as though we are not. For if we do, then were we of Christ after all? Are we making a mockery of His grace?
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus “who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (NKJV Romans 8:1) (v. 5) But those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (v 6) For “to be” carnally minded is death, but “to be” spiritually minded is life and peace. (v 7) Because the the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God , nor indeed can be. (v. 8) So then, “those” who are in the flesh cannot please God. (v. 9) “But you” are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, “if” indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. NOW IF ANY ONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NOT HIS.
(v. 13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Anyway, according to Scripture, this would be my response.
Covered,
I wish you would cool your jets. I’m not even speaking to you personally, so please don’t take it as such.
Whew!! I know this does not apply to you.
I am sorry they have slandered you and defamed YOU Alex. Stay strong! God bless you!
(They didn’t like the prophets either!!)
“Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”
Luke 6
Covered @93
The comment was a response to “Just Asking’s” comment.
The response was given due to that persons feeling as though I was being too hard on people. That I was not being loving, but rather unloving as a Christian.
Covered you stated:
“Quit assuming that you know all that is happening including who is saved, who is baptized in the Spirit and who is going to heaven. It is offensive to think that Christians have such authority, we don’t.
Never said this. That we knew “all that is” nor did I personalize it to myself.
We are to participate in the body of Christ as a church and when there leaven in the form of hertical teachings, wolves in sheep clothing, or abuses against the children of God, we are to call it out and deal with it. The Bible has told us who how to identify these people and things things. We shall know them by their fruits.
I really don’t understand Covereed how you thought I was personalizing this to you, but it seems as though that once you began to think this was what I was doing, our discussion took became that of defense/offense demeanor, rather than just discussing the merits, truths, and Scriptural proof of such statements.
Again, for my part, it certainly was not my intent to cause you an offense. Only to say, I agree with Solomon and to follow this with statement to say why.
Correction: The Bible has told us how to identify these people and these things. We shall know them by their fruits. We can do this because we who do have the Holy Spirit are equipped to do just this according to what Scripture has told us.
B.S.
Halleleujah, AMEN AND THEN SOME.
Just Asking @ 88
I wanted to focus on what Covered was sharing before addressing the statement that you made regarding me personally. I stopped for a brief moment to respond @92. I thought more about what you stated which is:
“.Linda Pappas: you need to be careful. Almost all of your post are filled with hateful vitriol, hardly fruits of the Spirit. It always amazes me that people like you are quick to judge someone else’s salvartion when you are guilty of the same things, possessing the same heart.”
vit·ri·ol/ˈvitrēəl/ Noun1.Sulfuric acid.
2.Cruel and bitter criticism.
And this is what I have to say to you:
1) You did the same thing on a differentt occasion. That is drop in and right in the middle of another discussion that me and another person was having. You flung your darts. then left, altogether.
2) I know my heart and it is unfortunate that you took this opportunity right at the juncture that Covered and I were struggling with each other.
3) Being so, you came in on a conversation and your remark was more antagonistic then helpufl.
4) As for my “you are quick to judge someone else’s salvartion when you are guilty of the same things, possessing the same heart,” you are speaking out of ignorance with what seems to me, to be a need to somehow bypass examining what Scriptures tells us.
5) So, when a person does this, Just Asking, I ask myself what are their motives for speaking so deceptively.. My guess is that you are not a friend, for if you were, you would have projected your own faults onto me.
6) Your discernment needs a bit of time in studying Scripture. For then you will find that I am not advocating judging anyone without adequate time and evidence that would indicate such a one is not walking or in the Lord. But instead am relying on Scripture and the Holy Spirit to define for me what it those who are and who not in the Lord.
Too many people unfortunately takes God’s grace and make it into a mockery of cheap grace, forgetting that His Word is quite serious towards those that continue to live a lifestyle of sin, yet dare to call themselves a Christian. If you fall within this statement, which I have no idea if you do or you don’t then I make no apology to you. for to do this would deny the sacrifice that He made for us upon the Cross.
@ 101 Correction: 5) So, when a person does this, Just Asking, I ask myself what are their motives for speaking so deceptively.. My guess is that you are not a friend, for if you were, you would NOT have projected your own faults onto me.
Because this statement is totally false. It is a lie from the pit. And I rebuke you for it, in the name of Jesus.
Whoa! The landscape on this thread changed a lot in 24 hours, but if no one minds I won’t intentionally speak about those changes.
My last post was #66 and Julie Ann Smith commented at #67 and I love her use of the word “creepy” to describe spiritual abusers. “Mind and Avoid” lists of congregants…now that is creepy to the tenth-power! Romans 16 is clearly about people who personally benefit from teaching false doctrine…those who “serve their belly”. It is so clearly not talking about congregants that that whole scenario is a startling example of the type of control abusers can have on shutting down critical thinkiing.
In my own case, I was really bothered by my response to that type of control prior to me realizing that the behavior was abusive. Mind-fogs are creepy and I needed to get to the heart of the vulnerabilities that made me open to that type of manipulation and see the scripture-twisting tools CC and other places like it use to establish and maintain it.
These are the things I want to share and I’ll start tomorrow when I have some time.
Blessings,
Overly Concerned
@102 “I needed to get to the heart of the vulnerabilities that made me open to that type of manipulation and see the scripture-twisting tools CC and other places like it use to establish and maintain it. ”
A very important point that hasn’t been really addressed here (in the 2+ yrs I have been here).
What is it in our own “makeup”, our own past (be it family issues, past vulnerabilities, etc) that allowed us to be “pulled” into an organization that would ultimately abuse us..thus a repeat of our past that has never been dealt with properly, or worked out.
A typical CC”ite” answer tot his may be “There is not perfect church”, “You can’t depend on man, only God”, etc…
Very good Overly Concerned.
Looking forward to hearing more about your journey.
For a long time I have been watching and reading this site waiting for God to prompt me when and what to do and say, so on 10-11-12, I add my ascending voice and perhaps my horror story( will see how He leads) to this unfolding revelation of what is happening to the GODless church and especially Calvary Chapel. The unsaved church where Satan dwells, What fellowship does light have with darkness………….
Covered @ 68 – I have no clue if Bob is saved, only God does. The fruit he displays does not lead me to believe he is, but that could just be deep rooted sin that needs to be dealt with so true healing can take place & good fruit will again grow.
Sin isn’t a respector of persons. Both believers & non-believers are affected. Satan will destroy anything he can, regardless of the state of one’s salvation.
CC Pastor Mark Convoy, if you’re here, I’m just curious if you read the references that I referenced on another thread on 9/27 referring to another thread and what you think. (I know, I’m double-referencing myself. The peanut gallery may commence heckling…) I’ve pasted the refs below not to be narcissistic but because: 1. I put some time into developing the list, and 2. IMO, these are key events and testimonies in what will become the 2014 blockbuster, “……………..”. (Grrr, I can’t come up with a catchy title for the movie yet. Where is Sheck when you need him?)
Back to Mark, I have no agenda of validating or invalidating the operations of your particular church. I am, however, very curious if the facts presented of CS’s and CCOF’s unBiblical handling of all things Grenier affect your desire to be affiliated with such a movement. Before anyone says “Old Regime”, the “new” CCA has not responded either to Alex’s letter sent shortly after their inception, much less acted to address Bob The SubContractor’s ridiculous impending lawsuit.
Many CC pastors and giving units remain in the dark thanks to the hands that control the light switches, but I am stymied why those who know of these evils remain and defend Chuck and The Movement.
So, I would love to be a fly on the wall, watching when someone becomes aware of the way things really are and to see how the information affects them and their relationship with CC. It’s admirable that you have dialogued and been as open as you have. I echo others’ perception of you as a “real deal” pastor.
Here are the references and introduction: “The sheer volume of this blog may be overwhelming and difficult to navigate, so anyone new to this saga should read these key posts, Paul’s statement on the homepage, and Julie Ann’s summary. The following dates are post dates, not dates of events.
9/24/11: Details of Alex’s meeting with Chuck. Previous requests to meet were ignored, and Alex only got this meeting bc he got a hold of Chuck’s personal phone #.
10/12/11: Chuck’s lies about the meeting and his condemnation of Alex from the pulpit. (Audio available at 1/13/12 post).
11/15/11: Testimony from a former CCV board member about incidents of spiritual/emotional abuses at CCV and Bob’s confession of child abuse to the board. Those guys should be nailed for failure to report.
Also in October and November are several podcasts/radio interviews which further illuminate Alex’s journey and Chuck’s selective impotence.
12/3/11: On-air phone conversation between Chuck and Alex. Audio is a must-listen. Really shows Chuck’s heart.
12/23/11: Testimony of Edna Silva, one of the defendants named in the intent to sue letter.”
Thanks Mark if you’re still here. I hope you’ll share your thoughts.
Hannah @ 103 – I believe you are onto something. Both of my parents were abused as children, and found “homes” in calvary chapel. I was next in line to be abused, and was raised in calvary chapel.
I then married an abusive wife, and attended another spiritually abusive church, until she divorced me years ago.
After a lifetime of abuse, I finally callled calvary quits, read the bible on my own daily, and went to therapy to discover the ‘patterns’ in my life. For lack of a better description, I was addicted to being abused. I knew nothing different, and so I gravitated toward it.
Now it is years later, I am happily married to a non-abusive wife with a child on the way. I have confronted & reconciled with my parents on the abuse. And the last time I put a foot in a calvary door was a funeral, and even that was hard to attend.
God has blessed me immensly since I left the calvary cult. At first it was hard for my parents to accept, because the abusive & controlling nature that they learned from their own parents & calvary chapel was seeded deep.
We still have verbal conflicts from time to time. but love each other, and try to avoid religious topics to keep the peace
. Now I only attend small churches or home fellowships so i can get to know people.
That turned into a novel, but yes, I believe you are onto something.
Steve,
Your #105 is well said.
Olivia,
Hoping to hear more from you.
Steve,
I would really like to hear about those “patterns” in your life and the “addictions” that you mention because I think it may stike a chord with myself and maybe others.
I think for me, Calvary Chapel was a happy place, a place where everyone acted as if they loved eachother. As a new believer this was something I never had in my family. Plenty of fellowship-everyone smiling, I remember the first time I was invited. Who arte all these happy people?” I wanted that.
There was the “in crowd”. I met them when I was invited to a barbque one summer . Some very wealthy and “connected”..and it was like climbing a social ladder of sorts, so when you knew some of the inner circle of the Pastor, it was as if you “arrived” and were in a prestigious club of sorts.
I think everyone longs to belong, and when you have a charismatic Pastor, and beautiful people who live” perfect” Christian lives (of course that was what was projected), as a new believer, and as a woman, you just want to be part of that. Funny, that we went for years and never really had any good friends but many acquaintances.
Without a novel, as you say (I always try to remember that people will pass over long posts
), you realize that the “club” is a carefully orchestrated group of “yes” men and women who, when you need them, will quickly abandon you to support the Pastor who can do no wrong. When we left no one called us, it was as if we dropped off the face of this earth. I just deleted a whole paragraph which may reveal myself to someone reading from my church….I will just say that they hate gossip, but used e-mail to smear my name and lie about a situation. The hurt that I felt was worse than anything I had ever experienced in my entire life. I hope one day I get an apology from the Pastor because I can’t imagine him not being convicted of what he did to us,(what he allowed) if he truly is saved. He may be the Pastor of thousands, and we are only one family…..but that matters to the Lord.
Yes, we have forgiven him, because unforgiveness was killing us for years, and we did that for ourselves, not for him.
…I had to come back on here because it is so ironic that I just received an e-mail from someone I had not really spoken to for over a year.
This person was instrumental in showing me the shallow teaching of the CC I attended (and she still attended) by buying and giving me teachings of other Pastors. She did this for several years. It really opened my eyes.
We both stopped attending at about the same time.
She tried to get financial transparency and she was blown off by leadership.
Because of the draw of this church, and the impression it leaves on those visiting, she returned to the church hoping someone she is bringing there will be a better father to his child (her words) and get saved. Of course many come up to the alter and many are baptized.. Also, her entire family and extended family go there..so it really is not about the church but the entire “experience”. What better way to get together with family, have some lunch, every one is together.
Personally, if what happened to me happened to this friend and I knew about it (as she did), I would never return myselfit would be hard for me to attend. People do not want to choose. They also want what works for them. Thats why for the last 2 years or so, this person could not speak to me. I think they woudl rather ignore you than deal with you because you are an obstacle to what they have chosen to do. Remain loyal to the “church”
Anyone else experienced this?
My loyalty is to Jesus Christ and his word never to a “Church” organization or Pastor.
Hannah @ 109 – I would be happy to share more. Let me first clarify my statement calling calvary a ‘cult’ as well. Typically this word can be associated with something evil & satanic. I didn’t find this at calvary, but I did find a lot of idolatry over the senior pastors & ‘brand’. Many who I attended church with believe calvary can do no wrong.
That is the only reason I reference it as a cult, too many attendees (family included) have a sort of blind obedience to the ‘brand’ and put blinders on when bad things occur. ‘Loving at all times’ is often used as an excuse to allow abuse to occur. Nobody wants to challenge spiritual authority for fear of being ostracized or somehow getting on God’s ‘bad side’.
What is one of the best tell-tale signs to know you are in a cult like environment? Challenge anything they do (please do so humbly, tithe usage is a good one) and if the response is ‘How DARE you’ run for the hills.
Patterns from Generations of Abuse:
Low self-esteem – Is a child timid & cautious? Are they not one to ‘take a risk’ for fear of failing? Are they a perfectionist who wants to end their life at the slightest mistake? These can be learned patterns, watch for them.
Self Abuse – Does your child do things ‘because’ it hurts? Do they get a ‘rush’ off of pain? Do they not care when they are hurt, because their mind has decided it is a natural part of life? These can be signs that they are numbing to abuse.
Social Anxiety – Does your child avoid making friends solely because having the relationship opens up the possibility to hurt that person? Do they avoid crowds because they fear their mere existence will hurt someone? This can also be a learned trait or genetic.
Conflicted mind – Does your child sometimes seem like they are bi-polar? Do they sometimes love their father, and then the next second are angry with him? Is it possible they are having an internal battle, of wanting to love their dad but their fear of him and his wrath makes them hate him? Often times these feelings occur simultaneously.
Choosing pain – Does your grown child date people with issues? Do they feel like they relate to people with health problems better (mental or physical)? They may be so accustomed to abuse, that desiring an abusive person (or a person with issues) is “normal” to them. This is a very hard pattern to break.
Preferring to lose – Does your child prefer to not have an opinion? Do they not challenge their parents, or individuals their parents say ‘never challenge’? Do they know the answer to a teacher’s question but are scared to raise their hand to answer it? It is possible they have been conditioned by abuse to ‘lose in life’.
Self Depreciation – Does your child lie to you to take blame for their sibling’s mistakes, to take the wrath of their father upon themselves so the siblings can avoid the pain? Eventually when they are numb to pain, they will not care anymore and this becomes a possibility.
These are just some examples, there are others, but these are pretty good signs of patterns to look for in abuse situations.
Steve said:
“After a lifetime of abuse, I finally callled calvary quits, read the bible on my own daily, and went to therapy to discover the ‘patterns’ in my life. For lack of a better description, I was addicted to being abused. I knew nothing different, and so I gravitated toward it.”
Ditto for me without the Therapy. I had to look deep into myself and analyze why I gravitated towards these type of relationships.
I was also married to an abusive wife and I am glad God got me out of that situation
“So Bob Grenier is not a church leader. He is a CEO of a convenient non-profit business.”
Amen to that!!
Solomon @ 111 – Isn’t that such a freeing revelation? I love assembling with christians, but once I got out of calvary and put my faith in Christ alone, so many issues I had in life went away over night.
Christ first saved my soul, then He saved me from organized religion. Praise His name.
Steve said:
“Solomon @ 111 – Isn’t that such a freeing revelation? I love assembling with christians, but once I got out of calvary and put my faith in Christ alone, so many issues I had in life went away over night.
Christ first saved my soul, then He saved me from organized religion. Praise His name.”
Yes it is Steve, being out of the Calvary Web of Religousness has been the most liberating thing that has happened to me in my walk with God. If it was up to them I would still be in a miserable abusive marriage
Steve,
How specifically did the triats you listed fit into your “relationship” with your Calvary Chapel?
Do you attend any church now? If not, how do you deal with the guilt trip others try to lay on you?
Right now our family is not attending a church (not that we have not tried)..but the first thing others ask that know you left Calvary is “What church do you attend”? And when you reply “none”, you need to be ready for combat! First they tell you that Satan will attack you, then they tell you you are disobedient, then give you the verse “do not forsake the fellowship”…blah, blah ,blah….
I think I am finally over the guilt of not being in church, but now when people ask I feel like saying “None of your business!!”. Thats the great thing about heathens that you are friends with. They never try to lay any guilt trips on you!
Steve- I do know you said you are not involved in organized religion, so I guess you are not at church…
How long ago did you leave?
Steve @ 113
Nicely done.
Mark 2:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
I Cor 12:24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Ephesians 2:19-22 (#10 of 10 Bible Verses about the Church, the Body of Christ)
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Unfortunately, the systemic structure is dependent upon being a Pied Piper, but does little in the way of protecting and concretely feeding its followers. The Moses Model simply does not permit real intimacy with its flock. Steve, you had an excellent therapist. to be able to now come back to articulate these things, when Hannah posed the question, is awesome.
Hanna,
There is one sure, positive, direct, appropriate, Biblical way to answer anyone asking, “What Church do you go to”? Simply respond, “I go to The Church Jesus Built”. Google it, there are several enlightening places to go. The following is just one:
“The Church That Jesus Built”
A Sermon by Elder J.L. Davis
New Zion F.B.H. Church
Greenville, South Carolina
Matthew 15:18b; “And upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it”.
What are the challenges that the church faces? From the first century, while in its
infancy, to this day, the church has been bombarded with fierce persecutions. It faced
emperors like Nero, with all of his atrocities, who for the sake of sport hung Christians on
stakes, covered them with oil, and burned them like torches as he rode his horse in the
midst of them. But, the church did not die. It faced men like Vespasian, Nero’s general
who marched into Palestine in 67 A.D. to stamp out a revolt but had to return to Rome
because Nero killed himself. He, sending his son, (Vespasian that is), and in August of
A.D. 70, with an army of no less than eighty thousand trained soldiers burned the temple
in Jerusalem, the center of Jewish theocracy and the cradle of the Christian Church. But
God forewarned the Christians who forsook the doomed city in time and fled to
Decapolis beyond Jordan. The church did not die.
In the fourth century, the Emperor Dicletian came to power, an able and judicious leader,
who kept the Roman Empire from sinking into dissolution. For twenty years he tolerated
the church and the Christian faith. But he had a son-in-law by the name of Galerius, a
cruel and fanatical heathen. He prevailed upon his father-in-law in his old age to
persecute the church and bring them back under paganism. Churches were destroyed,
bibles were burned, Christians were deprived of public office, and their civil rights. But
above all, they were to sacrifice to the pagan gods or face death. But Galerius found out
“you cannot destroy the church”, and before he died he asked that the church pray for
him and the welfare of the empire. I could go on and on, but time will not permit. There
is something unique about the church – It grew out of persecution. Every time they tried
to stamp it out over here, it popped up over there. It is indestructible, and it’s hell proof.
Jesus said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.
So when folk think they can hurt it through persecution, they’re fighting a loosing battle.
It only gives the church more vigor. I heard Isaiah say, “When the enemy shall come in
like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him”.
In order for a man/woman to be effective as a Christian, he must never minimize the
power of the church. For the church is the body of Christ, it is the vehicle of the Holy
Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is the “executive arm of the Trinity”. When God commands
it, the Holy Ghost moves and causes it to be.
The church is not a social club, where we include who we want and exclude who we
don’t want. For I heard Isaiah say, “Every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and
he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without
money and without price” (Isaiah 55:1). Then I heard Jesus say, “Come unto me, all ye
that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). I heard Him
say in the book of John, “If you come I will in no wise cast you out”.
The church is unlike any other institution, it’s profoundly deep. Furman University is
concerned with and focuses on knowledge, but the church focuses on wisdom. Yes, we
get knowledge from books and universities, but wisdom comes from God.
Greenville Memorial is concerned about the body, but the church is concerned about the
soul.
Psychiatrists practice depth psychology, but the church practices deep faith. Because of
our faith, we call those things that are not as though they were. For we walk by faith and
not by sight.
The optometrist checks the eyes, but the church checks the heart.
Science sticks with facts, but the church sticks with faith. Science will tell you, in order
to move a mountain, it will take earth moving and blasting equipment, but I heard Jesus
say, “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove
hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you”
(Matthew 17:20).
In the formative years of our country, the church was the only institution that gave our
people a sense of dignity and pride. In the rural south or as we call it, in the country, it
was the only institution that allowed a man to walk behind a mule all week and serve as
pastor on Sunday morning. It was the only place where you could work in the fields all
week long and be chairman of the deacon board on Sunday morning. Where you can be a
domestic worker or housekeeper during the week and serve as President of the Mission
when you get to church. Before we knew about a degree, other than the degree of the
sun, the church gave us pride. It’s never been concerned about your social status, but if
you’ve got clean hands and a pure heart you can make it in the Lord.
It’s been said that wherever God builds a church, Satan builds a chapel near by. The
enemy no longer fights the church from without, but he’s gotten on the inside fighting
from within the church. He’s gotten in the saints, sowing seeds of envy, strife, and
divisions. There is too much quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, too many factions
or what we call clicks in the church, too much gossip, arrogance, and disorder. Those
things that are an abomination to the Lord have crept into the church. A proud look, or
haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood (in the church they don’t
literally kill you, but they kill your character). A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that run to mischief, sowing discord among the brethren. These things doth the Lord
hate.
But the church is to be a saving station, an oasis in the wilderness. In the church we
ought to do as Jesus commanded saying, “Let your light so shine before men, that they
may see your good works, and glorify your father which is in heaven”. If we lift up
Jesus, I can hear God saying, “Behold I will do a new thing: now it shall spring forth;
shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert”
(Isaiah 43:19).
I don’t know about you, but the church is my spiritual gymnasium. It is where my soul
takes its spiritual exercise. For I head the psalmist say “My soul shall make her boast in
the Lord; the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad”.
It is my spiritual cafeteria, it is where David declared, “He prepareth a table before me in
the presence of mine enemies, he anointeth my head with oil” and yes, when I enter into
His gates with thanksgiving, and into His courts with praise, He will make my cup run
over.
I know that in God’s house, in the church, I can find safety that ADT can’t provide, for I
heard Jesus say, “Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it”.
The church is the only institution that Jesus is coming back for. He won’t be back for
Bank of America. He’s not coming back for U.S.C. or Notre Dame, University of
Georgia, or Florida State. No, He’s not coming back for Alpha Kappa Alpha, Delta
Sigma Theta, Sigma Gamma Rho, nor Kappa Alpha Psi. But He’s coming for His bride,
the church, adorned for her husband. He’ll be looking for that church without a spot or
wrinkle.
You can be a member of many organizations without Jesus, but to be a member of the
Church that Jesus is talking about you’ve got to have Jesus as Lord of your life.
You can go to heaven without health, you can make it without wealth, you can go without
fame, or even a great name; you can make it without learning or great earnings, without
culture, beauty, or friends, but without Jesus you just can’t make it.
I wonder do you know Him? Let me tell you about Him:
He’s the First and Last, the beginning and the End!
He’s unmoved, unchanged, undefeated, and never undone!
He was bruised and brought healing!
Pierced and eased pain!
Persecuted and brought freedom!
Died and brought life!
He’s risen and brings power!
The world can’t understand Him, armies can’t defeat Him, schools can’t explain Him,
leaders can’t ignore Him. Herod couldn’t kill Him, the Pharisees couldn’t confuse Him,
Nero couldn’t crush Him, Hitler couldn’t silence Him, and the New Age can’t replace
Him.
Let me tell you what He means to me. He’s my way out of no way, my help in the time
of trouble, my friend when I’m lonely, my bread when I’m hungry, water when I am
thirsty.
The reason why Jesus could declare, “Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates
of hell shall not prevail against it”, is because the Church that Jesus is talking about is not
built with brick and mortar, wood, or stone, but it is built with His shed blood. Therefore,
the church is sealed by the blood of Jesus, and the devil can not penetrate the blood.
There’s power in the blood. Stay in the church! (The Church Jesus Built) ( And ask them to come to the Church with you)
Alex, I posted a comment after Hanna’s #119. It still says “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” Was I out of bounds by posting it? If so, I apologize. God bless you, Paul
Paul, it got stuck in the spam filter probably for the links to verses
Steve: I have really appreciated reading your comments regarding your “journey”. Your comment about being raised in an abusive home, married an abusive wife and went to an abusive church and your phrase “addicted to being abused” really made me think. I’ll probably stew more on it, too, because that’s what I do.
I’m also very intrigued about you now only attending small churches and home churches. It’s interesting because I just discussed the new trend in people leaving organized religion on my current blog post. I think this trend is only going to continue as people tire of churches acting like business, collecting $$, building their church empires, pastors acting like bullies and abusing their people, suing them, breaking up families – - – enough is enough. Where is Christ in this madness?
Keep talking, Steve. Your words are bringing hope to many who have been disillusioned by these fake churches and false teachers. People are looking for Christ, not this facade.
Wow Paul, Preach it!
Ok ok…well I left calvary chapel years ago…I liked the thru the Bible approach to the teaching…but something never sat right with me concerning motive and there seemed to be a real arrogance within the church I tried and the murrieta college….o ya and then there’s riverside…I’ll never be good enough to attend there.
sooo…what I’m wondering is…where do u recommend I attend church…I’ve found the same problems your discussing in every denomination and non-denomination……do you think the Spirit is driving us back to the home church model we see in the New Testament?…help me out here brothers and sisters..love ya.
Ken
My experience is that the town I live in is mostly driven by Calvary Chapels and a few other what I call “Copy cats” who have seen the tremendous “success” of the CC megachurch and are trying the same tactics…actually some even worse. I understand that this is not the experience of the majority, because the majority are attending these churches. One thing abotu the Calvary experience. It is not dry, it is fun, it is uplifting, there are “beautiful” people there who are successful and actually many who love the Lord, are great parents, give their time and gifts to the church, etc., who just choose to overlook the problems of the structure of the organization, because it really doesnt matter to them. As long as they are happy, have great fellowship, and their world revolves around a group that they feel comfortable with.
Jesus actually describes the opposite, right?
If I knew of any home fellowships near us, we would be there.
I don’t now what the answer is. I just know God got us out, and He just keeps showing us over and over again that it is pretty much all about business now wherever we go.
Yes, the Word is preached, but the church is run like a corporation.
sad thing is no one really seems to care about that.
We have all been trained to believe we are just “giving to the Lord”, and to “trust the leadership”
If you don’t , you are an “outsider”.
PS. I know I am taking liberties in making “judgements” , but I am in touch with many of those who attended my former church. I run into them in town or through business. I hear over and over again about issues (in fact because people know we left, they actually feel comfortable telling us things they would never tell anyone at the church!), and when I ask “why do you stay?”, I believe it is because their fear of man is greater than their fear of God. It may be because they are a single parent and their child is getting a free Christian education, it could be because their son is being prepped to become a Pastor so they need to serve and be involved-sort of like good PR, it may be because they have a family member they want saved and this church has a good reputation for “getting people saved”, it could be because it is a beautiful church experience…ambiance and it is impressive to family members….it could be because “There is no perfect church”, or “we are all sinners, so if the Pastor is sinning, God will take care of him–not my job”…alll kinds of reasons..
People are also led by “feelings”. Not by facts and truth. We are all guilty of that.
And sometimes it is difficult to seperate our feelings from true biblical discernment.
So some may choose to push aside their negative thoughts and experiences and stay where they have been, and where they are comfortable until the Lord removes them.
First to all:
I am impressed how this thread started down the toilet and was about to be squashed in vial posts, but people saved it. This thread is an example of how it should be done! Bless His Name!
On another subject;
Hannah said this:
“We have all been trained to believe we are just “giving to the Lord”, and to “trust the leadership”
If you don’t , you are an “outsider”.
One of the problems with the “corporate” culture is it needs to be fed and has a voracious appetite so the words of God are twisted to feed them constantly. Guilt, persuasion and fear are used constantly to draw the food and feed the fires of this furnace.
What did Jesus say about giving, that is what we should ask ourselves.
“To give to the Lord” is about what and to whom? (Hint Matthew 25)
Now before you hammer me with such stuff as, “a man is worthy…” I do believe it is our obligation to support the organizations we use to our benefit, but stop telling me stupid stuff trying to guilt it out of me.
Thank you all this is one of this blogs best threads that I have read!
Ken @ #126 said, “….where do u recommend I attend church…I’ve found the same problems your discussing in every denomination and non-denomination……do you think the Spirit is driving us back to the home church model we see in the New Testament?…help me out here brothers and sisters..love ya.”
Dear Brother,
This is only my personal opinion for what it is worth, and it is the reason I made a post here @ #121.
In my humble opinion you are among many, many people wondering the same thing; “What in the world is going on in the ‘Church’ and where do I find proper guidance”?
Although my #121 was not my words, I came across it online and felt a need to share it with others because it was stated immensely better than I ever could have stated it.
However, I will now try to explain what it meant to me as an answer to, “What in the world is going on in the ‘Church’ and where do I find proper guidance”?
After reading abusiveness Church blogs for several years I began to not feel proper in a Church/Building of any particular denomination myself.
Although I have been blessed and have not experienced any Church abuse myself, I have noticed a common breakdown of Pastor’s becoming less obedient of the Word themselves; and more concentrated on their own power/social status/monetary gain, than how the congregants were growing (Spiritually, not in numbers).
As it is said in my #121 the “Church” has always been attacked, even to the point of divisive denominations.
The “Church Jesus Built” is non-denominational, non-contradictive, non-business orientated, Loving, Caring; and awaiting the return of the Messiah as the King. The “Church” is us, Christians, Saints.
I agree 100% that we should observe, inspect and correct; ANYONE using, harming, abusing ,or misguiding another brother or sister, because we are all together the soon to be, Bride of Christ. It is our responsibility to stay as unblemished as we can (for Him) to be that bride. The main “Blemish” I am talking about here is the tarnishing of spiritual Faith, specifically caused by going astray from the word.
One way we can avoid this (In my opinion) is to not rely on the building-structured church as to verify our belief, beyond maintaining a personal relationship with the Word.
This makes our responsibility twofold:
1. Stay in the Word ourselves.
2. Protect how the Word is delivered.
Pay very close attention to how the congregants are treated and do whatever you can to help them. But do not allow yourself, or those you see harmed; to lose your or their membership of being a part of “The Church Jesus Built”.
I personally think that it is through this that we will see healing.
God bless you,
Paul
#127 Ken Hudson: As a new believer (almost 40 years ago), an old saint advised me to ask myself two simple questions when considering which church to choose: (1) Is the Bible is taught cover to cover? and (2) Does the congregation, as a whole, have a “heart attitude” to follow Christ? If the answers to both are yes, then proceed.
This means that you may have to attend a church for a while to observe and learn, but in a few months you’ll know whether the Congregation is home or not.
#127 Ken Hudson: Regarding House Churches, the same two rules apply. A good book on the subject that you might check out is “A God Centered Church: Experiencing God Together” by Henry T. and Melvin D Blackaby (http://www.amazon.com/God-Centered-Church-Experiencing-Together/dp/080544551X)
@132
Henry Blackaby is one of the most spirit-filled discerning Pastors I have ever come across and has helped me tremendously in my walk.
I am really appreciating all of you men taking the time to share your wisdom here.
I feel the guilt of not attending church lessening…and lessening…
Any suggestions of family worship/teaching, Bible study with teens?
Will try and add that book on to my Amazon order (just placed an order hours ago!)
Overly Concerned…where are you? Lol you said you were going to share more…did I miss it? Is it on another page?
I have had a busy couple of days and while I have been looking at posts and I even posted something on another thread, I did not have a chance yet to start doing what I said I would on post#102. Hannah thank you for your comment on #103. It looks like it stirred up some amazing dialogue on here! Also thank you for your comment on the other thread!
I am just amazed by the awesome courage of so many people on this site!: Alex, Grateful, Hannah, Tina, Steve, Olivia, Julie Ann, Rick etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.:-) Wow! I am amazed, inspired and stirred up by the bravery of people who are no longer content to “put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face” and are willing to heed the cautions Paul had to the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 11 “not to ‘have’ your minds…..corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” by putting up with “another gospel”!
Does anyone recognize that if we all know Jesus, then as we dialogue about things that grieve the Holy Spirit and about the things He is calling us to do to remedy those evils, we are functioning as the Church? We are looking like a tiny picture of the organism that the gates of hell cannot stand against! Read Jude. We are “contending earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints!”
At one point I did not understand what Jude was talking about when he referred to people who “reject authority”. In my spiritually malnourished, brainwashed state a spiritual abuser could easily have convinced me that Jude was referring to me. But with my mind-fog lifted I see that the type of people he referred to would be those who believe that they are above being questioned. The people Jude was talking about felt that like Balaam did, they could mislead God’s people into compromise and profit by that misleading and that not even spiritual laws applied to them and they flattered people to gain advantage while they walked according to their own lusts and encouraged others to do the same!
I think that a system that breeds pedophiles, child abusers and people who bend the law for their own profit, qualifies as an example of what Jude was talking about when he said “these are sensual persons who cause divisions, not having the Spirit!”. Paul addressed divisions in a few places. We all know that God wants unity with us individually and corporately but if the actions of an organization scream that they do not want to walk in God’s grace and do not want to repent and address evil works what should we do? Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
The divisions among the Corinthians were caused by the fact that there were things that were wrong that needed to be corrected and people were eating the Lord’s supper with wrong hearts. According to the verse quoted above approval needed to be given to those who were doing the right things. How true in the issues on this site! The character of our God is such that He does not approve those who damage children, count themselves to be above the law and cause His name to be blasphemed and if He does not approve that type of behavior why should we? We are told to “approve what is excellent and to be sincere and without offense until the day of Christ” (Philippians 1:10). How can we truly do that if we partner with organizations that fail to repent for not doing it? As Olivia said (and Paul in 2 Corithians 6:14
) What fellowship does light have with darkness………….
God does not want us to have any communion with darkness and I pray constantly for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are trapped in places like that still. I was there once with my mind conformed to a worldly view of the church and not God’s view but now I am part of a fellowship of believers who love to walk in the light and in fellowship with God and each other in love and grace and it is amazing! God took me through quite a process to get there and of course we are not fully perfected yet but I see people willing as Hebrews 6 tells us to “go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works” and I am so blessed by that!
But today I am also blessed by people on this site!….Not yet fully perfected but pressing “toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus”!
Remember what Jude said: 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Blessings to everyone!
Overly Concerned
Thank you for this post and your honesty!
Overly Concerned-
You encouraged me to read Jude (it’s been awhile)
Michael the Archangel was in battle with the devil and he said “The Lord rebuke you”
It reminded me that only Jesus can rebuke the devil. Even Michael the angel knew that.
Our battle is against the devil in the name of the Lord.
Another reminder from Jude: “keep yourselves in the love of God.”
Building yourselves up on your most holy faith.
Deceivers are in the church-don’t trust your spiritual grwoth to anyone. Pray in the Spirit.
“On some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire…..”
PS OC from Jude:
“Certain men have crept in unnoticed who were long ago marked out for this condemnation.. who deny the Lord God”
As with the Israelites (Judes example of them not getting to the promised land and Korah’s rebellion–reject the authority of God), some start the race but never finish….
Interesting….
Amen Hannah! I love everything you said! I re-read my post and realized I forgot a reference again.
Philippians 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus!
The Word has become one beautiful picture of the awesomeness of our God and the lengths He has gone to in order to make sure we can walk in fellowship with Him! I’m so grateful for the Cross and the Resurrection!
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
More to come from me soon in the journey of dissecting the lies and vulnerabilities with the two-edged Sword and replacing them with truth. I am loving everything everyone else has to say about this!
Amen Hannah! I love everything you said! I re-read my post and realized I forgot a reference again. Philippians 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus!
In my life: The Word has become one beautiful picture of the awesomeness of our God and the lengths He has gone to in order to make sure we can walk in fellowship with Him! I’m so grateful for the Cross and the Resurrection!
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
More to come from me soon in the journey of dissecting the lies and vulnerabilities with the two-edged Sword and replacing them with truth. I am loving everything everyone else has to say about this!
Please moderate the first comment 140 I edited after hitting submit and resubmitted:-)
Jude is an excellent book on spiritual abuse. Pastor Ken Garrett did a blog series on spiritual abuse using Jude. Ken and his family were in a church/cult for 12 years. We’ve spoken for hours about this topic. He has studied spiritual abuse extensively and I think of him as an expert on the topic. http://downtownpastor.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/the-fingerprints-of-a-false-teacher/
Overly Concered, thank you. I love reading your posts
They really speak to my heart. I get all teary eyed. I guess because I still hurt but your words bring me such encouragement. I feel God’s spirit in your words.
Thanks Julie. I just read the link you provided. Ken describe my last CC pastor to the letter. He would even compare his messages to CSmith as if they were the same. Unless you took the time to check out and compare their messages you wouldn’t know the difference. He just said enough similarities to keep CS off his back and remain a CC pastor. He can speak well. Ken Garrett would have spotted him as a wolf in sheeps clothing a mile away. So are the people in his inner circle. When they assault and abuse anyone in the congregation they do as a group just like a pack of wolves. T
Thanks Julie. I just read the link you provided. Ken describe my last CC pastor to the letter. He would even compare his messages to CSmith as if they were the same. Unless you took the time to check out and compare their messages you wouldn’t know the difference. He just said enough similarities to keep CS off his back and remain a CC pastor. He can speak well. Ken Garrett would have spotted him as a wolf in sheeps clothing a mile away. So are the people in his inner circle. When they assault and abuse anyone in the congregation they do as a group just like a pack of wolves. T
Sorry. I hit the submit button twice. Please delete the second one if you can.
Nice, Julie. Will definitely use as a resource article.
Alex, my comment @ 70 remains in moderation.
Kevin – - – what’s weird is they all fit the pattern. They all went to that Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS) That’s why when I was originally searching spiritual abuse and came across SGMSurvivors.com blog, their abuse stories resonated with me. I was not part of an SGM church, but their stories hit me so hard. That is why I started a blog, too, because I knew that there would be people searching spiritual abuse who would connect with my story.
This proves a couple very important points: we are not alone. That is a huge hurdle to get over. Aloneness can be paralyzing. The 2nd point is that our voices need to be heard. Sharing our stories not only helps us to process what we went through, but help others as well as they make the connection with their abuse. There is a ripple effect. We all need each other: 2 Corinthians 1:4
Julie Ann, great article! Those things need to be published in our local news papers
Found this on the SGMSurvivors blog (Thank you, Julie, for that reference!).
Very telling of the current order of business at Calvary Chapels:
Jeremiah 12:10-13
Many shepherds have destroyed my vineyard;
they have trampled down my portion;
they have made my pleasant portion
a desolate wilderness.
They have made it a desolation;
desolate, it mourns to me.
The whole land is made desolate,
but no man lays it to heart.
Upon all the bare heights in the desert
destroyers have come,
for the sword of the Lord devours
from one end of the land to the other;
no flesh has peace.
They have sown wheat and have reaped thorns;
they have tired themselves out but profit nothing.
They shall be ashamed of their harvests
because of the fierce anger of the Lord.”
An FYI about Sovereign Grace Ministries: SGM is an important situation to keep tabs on right now. CJ Mahaney is the top dog. I’m going to be doing a post on this topic today or tomorrow, but what Alex is doing here, what I am doing on my blog, what other bloggers are doing is important. It is drawing attention to real problems in the church that church leaders are choosing to ignore. SGM has the same kind of spiritual abuse that I have read about here – heavy-handed authority, sex abuse cover-ups, etc.
Keep close tabs on SGM because there are things happening right now – one church (Daytona Beach) recently sent notice that they are leaving SGM, 2 of the biggest churches connected with SGM – Covenant Life Church (Pastor Josh Harris) and Fairfax are rumored to be leaving the group as well. This is huge. They also have a big SGM pastor’s conference coming up (10/30-11/1) to discuss SGM polity. Church leaders outside of SGM will be watching because of CJ Mahaney’s close connections with so many movers and shakers in the celebrity pastor circuit. Isn’t it ridiculous that we have such a thing as celebrity pastors?!
Anyway, the reason why SGM is important to watch is because we can observe patterns on how celebrity pastor respond to the situation, we can see how the leaders respond to the church, how they respond in social media, what policies are changed, what is ignored, which celebrity pastor sides with SGM, which pastors speak out about the issue.
I have no doubt that CC will be headed for the same kind of situation – especially as people become more vocal about the issues at their churches.
Julie Anne,
Thats big news about Josh Harris.
People have een hardon him, but I did liek his books and thought he had a word for the youth in terms of abstinence.
Looking forward to your post on SGM.
..People have been hard on him, but I did like his books…..
I need to look at the screen instead of the keyboard.
The thing the church allowed to get out of hand for a time was the idea of placing people up on a pedestal (idolization); so, yes, Julie, I agree in how ridiculous the idea is of anyone in the church being placed in or seeking a celebrity status. I’m in agreement with others here that this has become quite a thread dealing very seriously, yet graciously, with some grave concerns within the church.
Thank you to everyone who has shared, and continues to, some valuable insight with concerns pertaining to the manners and handling of affairs affecting isolated individuals, fellowships or congrgations, and the broader church body as we are experiencing today!
I have gleaned and benefitted much from my brothers and sisters here!
Hannah,
His books (JH) were one thing– yes, I, too, went with my girlfriend, now wife, to one of his conferences here in Phx back in the 90s, even bought and read ‘Why I Kissed Dating Goodbye’– but they soon became a little hypocritical while he continued to have his conferences telling everyone how they needed to deal with and accept being single, when he all so quickly engaged and got married, as if to say, “You all need to quit pursuing a marriage partner so overzealously and let God bring her/him to you.” Meanwhile, he’s already pursued and found his counterpart!
Julie,
That comment about the ridiculousness of celebrity pastors also applies to worship leaders and music performers in Contemporary Christian Music going all the way back to the likes of Sandi Patti, Amy Grant, Steve Camp, Steve Green, M.W. Smith, through the Newsboys, DC Talk, Aaron Jeoffrey, and some recent entrants who have been on American Idol– people who often times think more highly of themselves than they should, basking in the church spotlight where churches have exchanged the sacred altar place of God for a performance stage. I remember one young teen girl in our church (prominent worship team member) being so dismayed that her music career didn’t take off and skyrocket her to success when she released her first church sponsored album to a less than expectation level of heightened fanfare and acclaim from the local fellowship and Calvary Chapel network. I kind of felt bad for her, but at the same time, couldn’t empathize much with her sense of expectation that she would become an instant local church celebrity which would springboard her even further onward toward church stardom. Sad example of wanting more for oneself than is warranted or due.
Andy@157
Good points..
I can see the frustration of receiving what appeared to be an “outdated message” of sorts.
Sometimes people get “famous” for something they have lived through and then their lives change and it seems hypocritical to still teach on the former subject when your life has changed… I get it…. I guess if he remained single his message woudl still be relevent. Here you are loking at him and he is clearly not struggling with the sam issues so it woudl be harder to receive from him.
I am thinking something has to be wrong with my keyboard today! I will be more diligent to check my grammer/spelling….
Josh comes from the “Homeschool Movement”. I discuss the homeschool movement here. His father, a homeschool pioneer, Gregg Harris, groomed him for the public eye, taught him how to promote himself, be an author, be a public speaker, etc. The book, I Kissed Dating Good-Bye is remotely connected with courtship which was highly promoted in the homeschool movement. There are a lot of issues coming out of this kind of controlled patriarchal environment. That said, I appreciate that Josh seems to be taking a good look at what is going on in SGM churches. He was mentored for several years by CJ Mahaney before assuming CJ’s position as head pastor, so separating from CJ and SGM comes at a personal cost. It will be interesting to see what happens next with Josh and Covenant Life Church.
The homeschooling issue (which I have had experience with) is a whole culture unto itself.
I found the mothers controlling and rigid for the most part.
There were many teen pregnancies right after the kids left home for college.
Seemed they may have been ill prepared for the “real” world and maybe a little naive.
Too sheltered an environment. At least my perception.
PS Julie-
You talk of the patriarchal control. Maybe thats in the reformed movement.
I saw the opposite in the Homeschool group I was involved with.
It was more Matriarchal control. Many of the dads were not very involved,(and many were not saved) and many dads did not even want their sons homeschooled, but the moms insisted. It was also because they could not afford private christian school (some admitted this) and would not dare place their kids in public school for fear the enemy woudl snatch them away!
OK…done for the day here. Dont want to become snarky
Hannah – The Patriarchal movement definitely is part of the reformed movement – actually to be more specific, its roots are Reconstructionist. . . . . that’s another post I have on draft – - still working on – lol. I found this prevalent especially in the state-wide Christian homeschool conventions and also Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, HSLDA, Bill Gothard, Mike Pearl, Steve Maxwell, family-integrated church influences.
~Julie Anne
Wasn’t going to come back on…but I am doing research on the net so I thought I’d pop in again!
I met Doug Philips at a homeschool convention and purchased many of his materials and CD’s…..definitely would look at the materials differently now…
If I found any of Doug Phillips materials at my house, it would be going in a bonfire. Just sayin’
Do a Google search on him and you will find spiritual abuse, lawsuit, hyper-authoritarian, patriarchal . . . . it ain’t pretty, but he sure makes his Vision Forum website look appealing. He sends out lots of catalogs of children’s toys for Christmas, yet his family does not participate in that “pagan” holiday. Oh – he’s definitely full-quiver. Full quiver means that sex is for the purpose of childbearing, it is not primarily for pleasure. If you abstain during fertile times, you are saying “no” to God’s blessings of children. They look down on you if you have medical issues saying that you are not trusting God enough. If you have had a tubal/vasectomy, they tell you to get a reversal.
If I would have followed the full-quiver lifestyle, I would easily have had 20 kids by now.
I thought something was wrong, and oddly enough, I never used the material I purchased. How hypocritical to sell a Christmas catalogue of gifts for profit and not give your kids any…seems to me his kids have to be just a tad messed up with that alone!
Is that the group that the reality show couple follow?
I can respond a lot more to your post but I will abstain! (no pun intended)!!
The family on the reality tv show is the Jim-Bob and Michelle Duggar Family. They follow Bill Gothard’s homeschool program, ATI. Bill Gothard is patriarchal and promotes quiver-full as well. The guy is single, yet tells married people how to live their lives. There are quite a few blogs coming out from adults who have been raised in this teaching. They aren’t pretty. In fact, many have left the faith.
Oh, yea, I had typed up another paragraph on #166, but showed some restraint – pun intended.
Julie Anne @ 124 – Thank you for the kind words. Yes, the church has lost its way…at least in the sense of its purpose for existence.
Its tricky too…because on the one hand, you could look at church and say “well beautiful lanscape, coffee shops, televisions, lighting, big bands, etc.” are not inheritantly bad things correct? I believe they are all good and all have their place, simply not in church.
I believe the purpose of church is to spread the word of God & to help ‘the least of these’. If the majority of your budget is going toward operating expenses (personal luxuries) you have failed as a church. In fact, I truly believe God has already removed His lampstand from them.
I think that is why I feel so much closer to God (and brethren) in small fellowships. The people I gather with are there for God & to serve, not bells & whistles.
I truly believe the smal fellowship is the Christ centered church model. Extremely low overhead & boundless opportunities to personally know your ‘church’ & reach out to the community. God bless.
Hannah @ 118 & 119 – My listed traits blended well with the calvary model. Women are treated as lesser than men. Questioning a pastor is questioning God. To suggest that God tells you something contrary to a calvary chapel pastor’s teaching is blasphemy (that’s how I was treated). Abusive/control hungry “prophets” of our modern day TBN wolves.
Yes, I attend small fellowships (home fellowships or tiny community churches). Leaving calvary created enemies, literally. Even my own family was ashamed of me for awhile. Once you are out…the cult like vitriol is astounding. You feel liberated and free to love Christ again once you jump the sinking ship.
You are so correct. Spiritual warfare over lack of man’s church attendance is intense! Especially when you give your reasons for leaving & taking a break. Satan does not like it when you seek the Lord, and he will use other christians to attack you for leaving his “camps” of spiritual neutrality. Satan prefers to keep the sheep herded into buildings and not reaching the world. That is part of his master plan in today’s age. Break the status quo? truly seek God & spiritual growth? get ready for battle!
I have pretty much given up ‘religion’ all together. I stick with Christ & His Word. Is it possible that by reading the bible on my own I can somehow mislead myself? I suppose so, and am happy to be corrected post mortem if that is the case. For now though, I’m going to stick with John 3:16, loving God, and loving my neighbor as myself, and seeing where that gets me. God bless.
Hannah @ 128 said ” when I ask ‘why do you stay?’, I believe it is because their fear of man is greater than their fear of God.”
Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but our Father Who is in heaven.
Steve@ 170
Spiritual warfare over lack of man’s church attendance is intense! Especially when you give your reasons for leaving & taking a break. Satan does not like it when you seek the Lord, and he will use other christians to attack you for leaving his “camps” of spiritual neutrality. Satan prefers to keep the sheep herded into buildings and not reaching the world. That is part of his master plan in today’s age. Break the status quo? truly seek God & spiritual growth? get ready for battle! ”
So true it needed to be repeated!
Had never thought of it that way…
Funny that one particular woman I knew always comes to mind as an example.
She has her own ministry at the CC, has one with her husband, attends church 2x a week, has a prayer group that meet every week, etc etc etc.
So when someone like me leaves a church and is waiting on God….and allowing God to speak directly to me through his Word…people like that can’t relate. They can’t even imagine their lives being interrupted that way.
I remember having a conversation with this woman about some of the tactics the church was using to draw in the crowd. She could not, would not commit to any opinion outside of supporting the Pastor. You HAVE to support him at all costs. There was no way to get through to her. It was very frustrating….but as you said it is a battle with the enemy…
When I shared what happened with our family at our church, my heathen family “got it”, my heathen friends were outraged….yet those inside the walls were silent. You are entering the battlefield INSIDE the property of the church, not outside.
Steve, @171
“Women are treated as lesser than men. Questioning a pastor is questioning God. To suggest that God tells you something contrary to a calvary chapel pastor’s teaching is blasphemy (that’s how I was treated). ”
I totally identify with this when I attempted to speak with my husband’s pastor regarding his adulteress and narcissist mental health diagnosis, as well as my own observations of hundreds of occasions, including the person he has fathered a child with. In the very worse of the PTSD I was experiencing as a result of living in the streets, I maintain close contact with the domestic violence hotline. They suggested that I speak to his pastor and others who I thought could faciliate an intervention. When I shared with them what had taken place up to the point of contacting the hotline, they bluntly told me that CC appears to cater to those who are sexual addicts and narcissist. In fact, they believed given the information that I read off concerning the pastor along with my failed attempts to sit down in private or with my own pastor, that when he stated to me, that he was person who “had a good sense of a person’s character, and besides your (my) husband had never walked arm and arm into church with another woman (2008), he doubted that my husband was acting out with other woman or lying to him.” Regardless of the 23 page confession that my husband wrote that involved directly and indirectly other females.
So, what this did is closed the door for any communication except what my husband wanted his pastor to believe. The hotline asked straight, given my own credentials: “Have you consider that his Pastor may be a narcissist as well?” They do tend to back one another up in spite of the evidence that everyone else sees, but they pretend does not exist. The idea that the pastor totally stop you short should tell you that he sees a woman as being inferior to him and your husband.”
I can only speculate what this pastor has chosen to believe. I suspect that my husband and this girl are now passing themselves as husband and wife. Although, I have sent the proof that we are married and not legally separated, I still yet have to hear anything back from him in the form that church discipline have been initiated. Instead, as I have shared my husband is now or is preparing to be a CC Pastor as well. I hope not—-with all my heart, I hope this is not the case. But then again, maybe God will use this to clean up CC and cause a huge, awesome, repentance among CC leadership and its people chooses to open their eyes, ears, and hearts, to seriously address those things that leads to spiritual, mental, emotional, sexual, economic, physical abuses. But first, they will need to acknowledge the presence of the leaven that exists up to their eyeballs, and how they have actually enabled and reinforced it by covertly disrespecting others in order to maintain the Moses Model and their ill conceived notions of biblical manhood.
Steve, I also tend to gravitate to smaller churches for the same reasons. I just wish I didn’t need to for my own safety to have to keep on swtiching due to remaining in hiding.
It would be my bet that Pastor Jeff’s Letter to the Pastor must be viewed as a real threat to them. Yet God’s Word ought to be viewed as a greater warning for ignoring and catering to these things.
Clarification: along with my failed attempts to sit down in private or with my own pastor, TO SPEAK TO MY HUSBAND’S PASTOR, he (husband’s pastor)
Soooo, it’s been a month since the post announcing the intent to sue letter. Think he chickened out?
Or maybe he’s waiting until after the Harvest Carnival. I wonder if the offering envelopes have checkboxes where giving units can designate whether they want their tithe to go to the Miniature Horses, Hay Rides, Train Rides, or Bounce House?
Alex, have you made any contact with CaCA since getting the attorney’s letter? (Ha! I like using that scatological acronym even more now — it made that sentence hilarious!). Just curious if pleading with the mothership is still in the picture. Regardless, Chuck is not off the hook with the Lord or the law.
Thanx brothes and sisters….your answers to my question were very helpful…but I’m even more blessed by the spirit in which your advice and thots were shared. Every one has a psalm has a spiritual song has a teaching…and Jesus has built me up thru you..I especially appreciated the advice to stay in the Word…which is what I’ll do has I decide what church to take my family to. Love ya.
Steve said:
“I have pretty much given up ‘religion’ all together. I stick with Christ & His Word. Is it possible that by reading the bible on my own I can somehow mislead myself? I suppose so, and am happy to be corrected post mortem if that is the case. For now though, I’m going to stick with John 3:16, loving God, and loving my neighbor as myself, and seeing where that gets me. God bless.”
I have given up on Institutional Organized Religion and now fellowship in a home Church. There was a period where I was not in a home fellowship and reading the word on my own and with a brother and sister and it was a blessed time. Remember it is the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth not a Pastor or Organization. I have grown closer to the Lord and understand far more now that i have ever have in the Institutonal Chruch System. Many in the organized Church have blind trust in these CEO’s masquerading around as Pastors.
Solomon @ 177 – we have similar thought patterns concerning the modern day church. Institutionalized religion may indeed be a better phrase for what I now avoid like a plague.
Small fellowships are the way to go. Take money out of the picture, and reduce your ‘church’ size to a group you can personally know and pray for daily. It is an amazing experience to say the least, and I have not missed calvary at all.
“CEOs masquerading as pastors…”
Solomon, I couldn’t have stated that better myself!
Some evidence of promoting a supposed church like it’s 1) his church AND 2) it’s a BUSINESS:
http://www.manta.com/p/16ow2rh65j5w9p_/rudy-paredes
Every time I come to this site now I see so much hope for the issues at CC to truly be addressed by the proper authorities…including the law when necessary and I see so much hope for people who have been wounded to be healed and to not walk away from the Church as God sees the Church and I see so much hope for the outcome of this to really cause a shift in the way the “church” across America looks at itself and cause widespread repentance and unity encouraged by true faith in Jesus and the one true Gospel!
That Gospel is not about a “church” making money and presenting a false veneer of holiness by publicizing its “good works” while neglecting to repent from corruption and greed and abuse. It is about preaching Jesus and Him crucified and all that His death and resurrection gave to us as His Church. Revelation 1:5-6 tells us that He “loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father”….
That is not a right given to only a few people, but to everyone who belongs to Jesus. God is so balanced in His treatment of us though. Even as He says this about us He also lets us know that we are to “humble ourselves under His mighty hand” (from 1 Peter 5:6) and “submit ourselves to Him” (from James 4:7) and that He “resist the proud, but gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6). He is the one who confers value on us as His people and gives us the right to become “children of God” (John 1:12) and declares that we are “more than conquerors” (Romans 8:37) and if abusive “church” systems really believed this to be true they would place a greater value on how they treated God’s people because they would realize that they were devaluing what God Himself had given value to. If they really thought of themselves as shepherds they would treat the flock like the Bible said shepherds should:
1.Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Perhaps CC and other such systems believe otherwise but outcries against abusive and oppressive and ungodly behavior are heard by God! The “outcry” against Sodom and Gomorrah moved God and look at their outcome! (Genesis 18:20-24)
Also when the people cried out against wicked leaders to Nehemiah in Nehemiah 5 that caused a rebuke of those leaders and they repented and resolved the problems the people and Nehemiah highlighted.
When will that happen for CC?….
Solomon-
An interesting read on Home Church.
Also interesting that the NT model started with home churches, due to persecution. Seems the same is happening now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_church_movement
Only 2 questions regarding home churches.
1) What happens when city ordinances only permit so many cars to park on streets before being in violation?
2) What happens when more people attend the home church than room permits?
Linda @ 182 – Here is my take on your questions:
1) Might I suggest you are ‘too big’ at that point? And someone else needs to step up and offer their home for another smaller fellowship? You do not all have to gather in the same place. Much can be accomplished where 2 or more are gathered.
2) You are too big. Someone else should open their home and ‘be the church’ just as the present home fellowship has.
You are the body of Christ no matter where you gather.
Linda,
Steve has a legitimate response to your questions, especially, in light of how some cities handle overly large regular home gatherings.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/california-city-fines-couple-for-holding-bible-study-in-their-home/
I have to say as I have been blogging about spiritual abuse, it’s amazing to see the similar trends among those who have been bullied by spiritual abusers. So many of my readers have abandoned institutional/organized religion. I’ve been reading the same on other “survivor” sites as well. Some do not go to church at all, others do home groups.
Of course, the worse-case scenario is abandonment or crisis of faith altogether.
I definitely have seen that, too.
Hannah,
Thanks for the link, great read. I echo what Andy and Steve are saying in that if your hoime fellowship starts to grow then it is time for someone else to open up there home. Actually there should be a revovling of metting at different Brothers’/Sisters homes so that one home isn’t looked at as “The Place”
I’ve done big church, home church, and small church. Each was perfect for that season of my life, until they were not. You will find abuse in all of them.
Also, another instance in which people hosting home Bible studies are not looked on favorably by either members of the community or authorities follows.
This couple claimed they were using their livingroom, and therefore could not be deemed as a church. However, feigned ignorance of the laws is not bliss or acceptable by any community, so Christians need to be smarter about how they conduct themselves these days. The couple had a space which clearly looked like a sanctuary with full church seating to boot, probably could have seated, at least, 30 – 40 people.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/arizona-pastor-goes-to-jail-holding-home-bible-study-religious-freedom-77909/
Andy said:
“Also, another instance in which people hosting home Bible studies are not looked on favorably by either members of the community or authorities follows.
This couple claimed they were using their livingroom, and therefore could not be deemed as a church. However, feigned ignorance of the laws is not bliss or acceptable by any community, so Christians need to be smarter about how they conduct themselves these days. The couple had a space which clearly looked like a sanctuary with full church seating to boot, probably could have seated, at least, 30 – 40 people.”
Yeah just keep it simple if you have a Home fellowship, no need to emulate the Institutional churches as it appears this couple did. A few suggestiuons from me would be
1) Don’t collect tithes, just do a grace offering when it is needed for the brethren who are in need (pastor/elders included) or for a missionary if there is one who came out of the home fellowship. or for any study materials that are gievn such as for teaching children etc.
2) Don’t get a pulpit or have rowed seating that resembles an institutional building.
3) Have multiple elders in leadership rather than an unbiblical one man Pastor Leadership model
4) Don’t give your fellowship a name, just be content with being an unknown in that department
Make sure that you don’t resemble what the Institutional fellowships have become, use the Bible as your Model
Solomon @ 190 – And it doesn’t hurt to ‘go outside’ once in awhile too. And what I mean by this is to gather at a bread line, or a retirement home, or some other area of service where you group can meet and actually help people.
When I was raised in calvary, this was the philosophy:
1. Church – sit on butt (im sorry, stand when papa chuck says to) for hour and half being entertained by music & chuck’s voice
2. Ministry – watch children of parents who are doing number 1 above
That was it. That’s all I was taught and encouraged to do (oh yes and to tithe *cough*)
Steve said:
“When I was raised in calvary, this was the philosophy:
1. Church – sit on butt (im sorry, stand when papa chuck says to) for hour and half being entertained by music & chuck’s voice
2. Ministry – watch children of parents who are doing number 1 above
That was it. That’s all I was taught and encouraged to do (oh yes and to tithe *cough*)”
Yup this seems to be the philosophy pf many Religous organizations
Solomon/Steve
Do kids/teens attend your home groups?
How do you decide about the teaching?
Do you have one person who you assign as “Pastor”?
What would you suggest for a family study to do to study together?
Thanks for the input.
How would you even find out about any home groups in the area? Seems to me you would have to know those families before.
Hannah, we found that the teens did not have a problem following an adult study, in fact they welcomed it. Teens have a way of asking the obvious, which keep the adults in check. LOL. For those teens not quite ready for the adult study, we had them help teach the younger kids, it had a way of grounding them, nothing like teaching another to really understand and comprehend what you believe.
The following are the central truths we learn from Church history:
• Even in the darkest hours of the last 2,000 years there have always been true believers and true Churches in this world.
• The real Church has always been small in numbers and poor in political power, finances and popularity.
• True churches and believers have always been persecuted.
I struggle to understand how some are unwilling to give up their sinful pleasures when millions have to give up their very lives.
I struggle to reconcile this picture with the one of men and women being torn apart by dogs, their limbs pulled from their bodies on the rack and the smell of burning human flesh on the fires of the persecutors.
I struggle to understand how the pleasure-centered and self-centered “Christian” of the West can claim to share a common faith with the martyrs.
I struggle to understand how preachers who preach a gospel of happiness, prosperity and popularity believe that their message is the same message that was preached by the faithful minority of the last 2,000 years, who like the prophets of old: “…had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented – of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.” (Hebrews 11:36-38).
Can the faith that results in persecution, torture, and death be the same faith that promises carnal happiness, a new Mercedes and popularity?
Can the faith that pursues pleasure, comfort and earthly happiness be the same faith that counts it a privilege to suffer for His name?
Will the hedonist and the martyr share the same heaven?
Oh, but for the Cross that is always before me, so too would I follow that which is lost.
Once a guru:
After reading your comment, once again my heart is drawn to the remembrance of those who have gone before us. So often do I look about me and wonder why or how it is that a better Gospel is not heard from the mouths of those who reads the same Bible that I do. How is it that Jesus told us that we would suffer and that we would experience much pain due to our faith in Him. Yet what I see is not this at all and I wonder why that is among those who claim to know Him. I think, am I’m missing something or have our pastor s compromised God’s Word in order to keep something that was not theirs to have or to lose something that they could not gain by token of preaching an brand of an inconsequential gospel. Could it be that in truth, they have sold the pulpit and the congregation out as a result of being seduced by their own love of fame and fortune?
I think about my husband and how he stands in the middle of the congregation sharing about how he was touched to see a girl initially being fearul in what she was going to say to those he and a team went to minister to in Haiti. I think about how he stated that he was taken with watching her fall to her knees to pray and then quoting verses to always be ready in season and out of season to rebuke, exhort, and so forth. But then my heart grow very grim thinking about how he has deceived everyone into believing he is a godly man when he has yet to vindicate me of the slanderous accusations he has made to discredit me as i have attempted to expose his adulterous choices and abusive behaviors towards me. I think about the words games he plays with me on the phone and how he has threathened my life so many times in order to avoid the truth of these wrong doings he committed and is committing against me and our marriage. I wonder if he even considers how heart breaking it is for me to be persecuted, abandoned, betrayed, rejected, hungry, in the face of hearing him stand on stage speaking otherwise to the congregation. My heart breaks because he too has sold himself out for something that is beyond my understanding knowing that what he hopes he will gain by doing this, he will surely lose. But then someone comes along like you, Once a Guru and reminds me:
Though none goes with me, still I will follow
Though none goes with me, still I will follow
No turning back,, no turning back
The Cross before me, the world behind me
As I am reminded of the martyrs gone before me, so too shall I with His strength and His Holy Spirit, will press towards the prize that waits for me. I too, will speak the truth of the whole gospel and not that which is easy on my ear and upon that which enbles me to ignore the impact that I have upon another human being in order to gain that which is not mine to have, be it a position or the attention and adulation of others.
Thanks Once A Guru for bringing this to our remembrance. My situation pails in light of those in scripture who are referred to as “so great a witness” that surrounds us to remind us that we can and we will overcome regardless of the hardships, the pain, and the sufferings set before us.
Linda,
In chains Paul preached the gospel….chained to Roman soldiers. For years..a different one every few hours…think of how many he reached….in CHAINS
In my flesh, I am nothing, but in Him, I am compelled like Paul to speak the Truth, the Way, and the Life to others, always being reminded that to do less would bring even more pain and suffering in my heart because I did not. . . . regardless of the circumstances that I find myself in.
all,
sorry i’ve been away. lots to do coming up to the election. been dragged into doing alot more political stuff on the blog that normal. but i wanted to comment on ‘church’
b and i have not been able to fully ‘re-enter’ or re connect with a church body for the last year or so due to what we see as organizational and pastoral, ministerial hypocrisy and corruption. it doesn’t help that when we talk to those who were supposed to be close ‘friends’ we are the ones counted as strange and divisive. shunned for asking, shunned for challenging, shunned for questioning.
we’re done. b and i are not doing it anymore. we love jesus, we still are strong committed disciples of jesus, we still reach out to the lost around us and reach in to other christian disciples we are in contact with on a regular, personal and relational basis… but we are DONE with the organized church and the games, manipulation and corporate business mindedness of what currently IS the western church.
“come out from among her…”. we have, and the weather is just fine.
-mike
Hannah,
check this site out
http://www.site.house2house.com/
We have teenagers including my son and one of my daughters. High school age up are with the adults. Junior high down are taught with the kids a separate study.
As far as a family study, I go chapter by chapter verse by verse with the family on a book from the Old and New. You and your husband can have your own separate bible study daily.
Hannah,
When my kids were younger I read scripture to them verbatim but my explanation was vanilla enough for them to understand.
Hannah @ 193 – No teens or children in our group currently but they are welcome. We are also pretty firm believers in the parents being the focal point for ‘raising them in the way they should go’.
We defer more to ‘instruct your children personally’ than ‘lets round them up in a sunday school class’ (not that either is a negative). We just want to avoid the extreme of ‘Jesus pre school’ where the parents sit the children down in a sunday school class instead of in front of the other babysitter (television).
Teaching wise, we just read through the bible and attempt to stay as non-topical as possible while doing so. Read the bible, reflect on it, and then fellowship and discuss ‘topical’ things after. We have all attended churches where there was 10 minutes of scripture reading and 40 minutes of stories & anecdotes about the pastor’s life.
Our pastor is the bible. That may sound cliche but we all read it together and discuss it together. There is no ‘pastor’ in today’s definition, we are all teachers & learners. We all try to be a part of the body.
I think the closest thing we may have to a pastor is ‘who is the reader’? Whomever is reading the verses at the time is the pastor.
Steve @ #107 wrote:
“After a lifetime of abuse, I finally callled calvary quits, read the bible on my own daily, and went to therapy to discover the ‘patterns’ in my life. For lack of a better description, I was addicted to being abused. I knew nothing different, and so I gravitated toward it.”
That’s interesting.
I have also seen this pattern in many Calvary Chapel adherents — including myself.
As a teenager, Calvary Chapel was a wonderful escape from my histrionic, raging, abusive mother — yet, really it was the same world with different characters. I just didn’t know it at the time. It just goes to show you that if you are not careful, you will gravitate to that which you are familiar with rather than that which is good for you.
I have noticed that many of the elders and deacons within the CC’s I have attended have come from profound abusive backgrounds. Their servant-like demeanors make them perfect victims for further abuse by predatorial CC pastors.
I was also to become aware that a large number of CC adherents were taking prescription anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications such as Valium and Xanax. Maybe the best medication for them would be to leave Calvary Chapel and find another church affiliation.
comment repost from Spiritual Sounding Board:
Julie Anne wrote concerning Alex: “In cases of abuse like this, it’s very easy to let anger get the best of you and even consume you. I don’t see that here. I do see a righteous anger. I also see is a man who wants the truth to be exposed and justice to be served. I see a man very concerned that others might endure the same abuse he and others have experienced. This is not ranting. This is not an obsession, this is LOVE.”
Amen! Only those in LOVE wield true spiritual authority!
And may the Most High God empower His Children of Light with perfect love, true grace, righteous wisdom and the necessary skill to wield divine weapons of warfare against every wicked stronghold of spiritual abuse in high places. Bend us in Your Hands, O LORD, as Your weapons of justice and righteousness! Deliver us from evil, so we might be free (emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually—holistically free) to be instruments of deliverance for others. Your Kingdom come. Your will be done. Strengthen us for this War.
Alex and friends of CC, monax and crew from Pittsburgh stands with you.
(ja, i want to invest myself in this fight—email me if there’s anything i can personally do; i’m in on this one.)
“The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.” ~ Sun Tzu