Oct 252012
 

Blogger Activism and speaking out is the “new” Wittenburg Door.

I’ll give Bob Grenier this, he beat me down and dominated me for so many years, and did it so well…he did instill one virtue in me: Don’t ever give in and don’t ever give up in the face of adversity and in the face of injustice.

Let’s face it, all of us who have been hurt in Calvary Chapel and then been shunned, given the spiritual equivalent to the middle finger when we’ve sought recourse within the Church System, had the tables turned back on us and framed as “evil” or “divisive” or “crazy” or “gossipers” or “unforgiving” etc etc (you’ve all know the M.O. well)…are in a very weak position compared to the CC Senior Pastor and the Calvary Chapel Church System.

Yep, they’ve got the Power. They hold the cards, they have the following, the financial support, the Bully Pulpit, the celebrity, the weight, the connections, you name it.

It is truly David vs. Goliath when it comes to standing up to them and speaking out.

it’s frustrating, it’s difficult, it seems sometimes like it won’t make a difference, it comes at a personal emotional cost, etc etc etc. It’s certainly tough.

But, is it right? Is it righteous?

I believe with all my heart that it is. It’s tough for a reason…because often the right thing is the tough thing. How easy to ignore the issues. How easy to go with the flow and make excuses for the Pastors and the CC System. The path of least resistance is to go with the flow and enable the Status Quo.

I reject that. I won’t give up, I won’t give in.

Reforms in the Calvary Chapel System are much needed. It is not a safe place System-Wide. The Calvary Chapel Leadership has shown time and again an unwillingness to repent and reform in the areas of transparency, financial transparency, mandating background checks of all youth workers and personnel, Church discipline recourse, standardized best-practices to protect kids and offer recourse if you’ve been spiritually abused, etc etc.

The Pattern of Calvary Chapel to date is cover up, cover over, silence victims, smear, Stone Wall, attack from the pulpit, etc. It’s wrong.

Make no mistake, the recent lawsuit brought by Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier is intentional, it’s strategic and it’s with the support of Calvary Chapel. Many in the Calvary Chapel System are watching closely. Many of the Senior Pastors are keeping a close eye on this.

What message are we going to send them?

Are we going to recoil in fear? Succumb to persecution for doing what’s right and righteous? Be silenced by fear of recrimination?

Not me. I reject it, I won’t stand for it. I fear the Lord and Him only. Speaking out against abuse and corruption in the Church is the Legacy of our fore-fathers. The Church has lost its way BECAUSE there are no more men and women of God who will take bold stands, even if it costs them something.

For these reasons, I am dedicated to Blogger Activism. I am dedicated to speaking out and warning as many people as I can with the remaining time I have left in this existence. Unfortunately, “change” and reforms throughout human history are usually wrought through controversy and conflict. I wish changes were made through simple petitioning, but that has failed time and again and has failed in the case of Calvary Chapel.

Why is it right and righteous?

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

1 Timothy 3:

Qualifications for Pastors

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Qualifications for Deacons

8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued,[c] not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must[d] be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 5:2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve

Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

Mark 9:35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.”

Mark 9:37 “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”

Mark 10:16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

For these reasons I am continuing to Nail these issues on the cyber-version of the Wittenburg Door, as much and as often as possible. If you have a deep conviction, as I do, go and do likewise. I am starting a Calvary Chapel Review effort. My goal is to post reviews wherever possible in the United States where there is a Calvary Chapel Affiliate.

Here are a few samples so far:

https://plus.google.com/114083034673616622906/about?hl=en

https://plus.google.com/108895621105168904047/about?hl=en

http://www.yelp.com/biz/calvary-chapel-of-the-chino-valley-chino

 Posted by at 8:14 am

  70 Responses to “Speak out against abuse and corruption in Calvary Chapel. Speak for transparency, accountability and vetting: Blogger Activism is the new Wittenburg Door”

  1. A Goal I have (with the help from all of you) is to publish a list of Calvary Chapel Affiliates from across the Nation and publish which ones have Transparent Finances (or not), Vetting of Youth workers and personnel (or not), Recourse for non-member members (or not), etc.

  2. In a defamation lawsuit, they are looking for facts verses opinion. So when writing reviews, if you would like to greatly minimize the chances of a defamation lawsuit, try to use words like: opinion, apparently, belief, thoughts. Alex was bold. Some of his wording is listed as factual – and he is not afraid of defending these facts in court. I did the same thing and notice both of our outcomes: we were both sued. If it is clearly stated as an opinion, an attorney would be foolish to use such phrases in a defamation lawsuit. I am not saying this to discourage anyone from posting their stories on review sites, but to show a way to protect yourself in your choice of words.

    Compare the differences. The first example is worded as an opinion, the 2nd are as fact:

    It is my opinion that Pastor John Doe is spiritually abusive vs Pastor John Doe is spiritually abusive.

    To my recollection, Pastor John Doe physically abused his children multiple times vs Pastor John Doe physically abused his children multiple times.

    Please do exercise your right to free speech as you draw attention to these very difficult church situations. Your one comment could be the eye-opening comment that causes someone to question what they have felt in their heart for a long time, but failed to act upon. Your opinions are protected speech. Be confident of that.

  3. Alex, you have mail!

  4. Julie Anne, good advice/distinction. Like you stated, I’ve got no problem laying it out in the manner I do b/c I can back it up…but good advice, thanks for sharing that.

    Andrew, got it, not good.

  5. Julie Anne said, “Please do exercise your right to free speech as you draw attention to these very difficult church situations. Your one comment could be the eye-opening comment that causes someone to question what they have felt in their heart for a long time, but failed to act upon. Your opinions are protected speech. Be confident of that.”

    Amen. It can make a difference, one at a time. It can also inform someone who is Church Shopping to do some more research before they enter their lives and trust a Calvary Chapel and before they commit time and money to a particular CC.

  6. It is my opinion that Bob Grenier is an abusive jerk and it is my opinion he is an idiot who is going to lose this lawsuit.

    See Julie Anne, your instruction is catching on already :smile:

  7. Alex,
    Yep, its not good at all. I’m pretty sure you will win this lawsuit too. That will be good though.

  8. Alex,

    As I was praying over this situation the other day, God really laid on my heart that one of the ‘masked issues’ behind all of this is a love for money (on behalf of the church).

    If you do win this suit, and a successful counter suit claims damages, I would encourage you as a brother to deduct your attorney & personal incurred expenses and give the balance of monies to charity.

    After all, if the church has so much of God’s money to throw away, you may as well take it from them and give it to people who truly need it. What a statement that would make? For not only righteousness to win, but for God’s money to actually reach the needy.

    Take all monies apportioned to you by law, and publicly remit the balance to charity. Let the world know that this is about Jesus and you seek no profit from it. Shine your light bright, so it brings glory to our Father. Blessings.

  9. Alex, you got more mail.

  10. Alex said: It is my opinion that Bob Grenier is an abusive jerk and it is my opinion he is an idiot who is going to lose this lawsuit.

    See Julie Anne, your instruction is catching on already

    Apparently you did learn well and I have come to the conclusion that your statement is true.

    You will win this lawsuit. That is a fact. Sue me.

  11. Julie Anne said, “You will win this lawsuit. That is a fact. Sue me.”

    ROTFLOL! :lol:

    I’m going to sue you for being so funny and making my stomach hurt from laughing LOL

  12. It’s my opinion that you guys are on a precipice of gaining a victory. It is a fact, that you guys are way too funny to not laugh with in the midst of the crucible.

    Julie Anne, thanks for the tips.

    Alex, let me know by email what I can do.

    I have had some experience working with a hammer and nails. But need guidance at time as well. So I’m counting on all of you and the Holy Spirit to make sure I don’t hit my thumb instead.

  13. Okay, don’t laugh—-what is ROTLOL. I’m thinking the LOL means “laughing on line,” but what’s the ROT?

  14. Linda: rolling on the floor laughing out loud

    Alex: It’s good to laugh amidst a lawsuit and I’m glad you get my dry humor :)

  15. Blogger activism fighting spiritual abuse — YES! Blogger activism against [what we believe to be] a stinking, festering, corrupt system — YES! Blogger activism against stonewalling, denying, obstructing — YES! We are with you on this!

  16. Thanks Cinna, your blog is doing awesome work, I’m a big fan of what you’re doing over there.

  17. Julie Anne, I love dry humor…the drier they better :smile:

    Thank you also, your case and your encouragement have given me a lot of hope in all this. Love your blog, too!

  18. In my opinion, BG was made aware by his lawyer that they won’t win this lawsuit. But I don’t think BG gives a crap if he does loose. He has deep pockets and so does CS who may have given the green light to sue Alex. They want to see Alex squirm as the trial goes. They might say “Yeah we lost. So what. We’ve the mega-churches to get the mega-bucks to sue anyone who messes with us. We just like to see people fear us whenever they try to bad mouth us.” Then the CC victims would say “Is it worth to go through all that stress just to say CC pastors are abusive?” That is just my opinion.

  19. Cinna or Alex, what is the name of address Cinna’s blog?

  20. Linda, click on Cinna’s name and it will take you to the blog.

  21. I’d love to see a mass exodus, if you will, by the giving “units” in the CC movement to get their attention such that next time the leadership goes to reach deep into their pockets, the pockets suddenly won’t feel so deep– that ought to stymie them a bit.

  22. Awesome post all around. I am in tears.

  23. Andy G Said:

    “I’d love to see a mass exodus, if you will, by the giving “units” in the CC movement to get their attention such that next time the leadership goes to reach deep into their pockets, the pockets suddenly won’t feel so deep– that ought to stymie them a bit.”

    Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen, it didn’t happen with the Catholic Church. I have protested outside of Calvary Chapel Montebello twice warning the sheep but to no avail people will put blinders on because they don’t want their anchors uprooted. It’s okay though as long as a few are willing to come out of the Harlot Church System then it is all worth it

  24. FYI – I noticed Alex put up a donation button on the top left of the page.

  25. Donation Button! Excellent!

    Can’t help but suspect Chuck is bankrolling this … OR … That Chuck is actually throwing Bon Grenier under the bus, while simultaneously trying to intimidate people from speaking out because of the hassle. It just doesn’t seem plausible that the law suit wasn’t first cleared through Chuck (if not instigated by.)

  26. My giving challenge: $10 from at least half of the sites’ 80,000 visitors = $40K to get going.

  27. A question – I don’t have a paypal account. Do I need to have one to donate or just use a credit card is just as secure? There are two ways to donate – would someone explain to me the difference between the two. I’m not up on knowledge of modern ways. Thxs.

  28. Also what does the CCA stand for in CCA legal defense fund?

  29. Another question – is there a way to send you Alex a money order instead of using a credit card?

  30. Sue your cracking me up :-) it stands for Calvary Chapel Abuse legal defense fund. You dont have to have a pay pal account just fill in the blanks using your credit or debt card info. At the top after you enter the amount you want to donate I think you have to hit a button that says update amt or something like that. Its very easy.

  31. You can also attach a message for encouragement :-)

  32. I really love this thread! I love the scripture used in context. It shows why this blog is so necessary. I also love the smiles on everyone’s posts. :-) Today I remembered how amazingly blessed we are to have to Jesus!. He loves us so much that He died to demonstrate it. He is our risen Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father and He is our Advocate when we sin (1 John 2:1) and our intercessor in everything else(Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25). We are not alone in trials and we are not orphans. We have a loving Father and the Holy Spirit with us forever to help and to guide us (John 14,15 and 16). If God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8). In this world we will have trouble but we can be of good cheer because He has overcome the world (John 16:33) and He never leaves us nor forsakes us! (Hebrews 13:5). :-)

    I love the Word! In it, there is peace amd truth and correction and wisdom and I can see why we should study it (2 Timothy 2:15) and hide it our hearts (Psalm 119)and I am grateful that the Holy Spirit teaches us so we do not have to be deceived! (1 John 26-27) :-)

    Today I am again grateful for this blog and blessed by the strength of everyone here and I am praying for restoration of all that God wants to restore to Alex and his family and restoration of hope, dignity, faith and everything that God wants to restore to everyone who has been hurt by any type of abuse and that our eyes stay fixed on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2) because He is so worthy of our trust!

    Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

  33. Overly Concerned wrote:

    “Today I am again grateful ”

    No, I am! ;)

  34. Guessing from the visitor map that all the main Colorado CC’s have checked this site in the last two weeks.

    If those visitors are the pastors, then they already know what they are doing.

    If the visitors are inquiring, I’d say that step one is to ask to see how the finances are spent. The response should be tellinng.

  35. ROTFHLOL ;-)

  36. New kid on the “blog “…served on staff CCFTL from 89 to 99….attended from 89 to present. Praying about sharing my story since Jim Coy was my overseer and I handled security for the church and often other pastors, including Bob Coy.

  37. Tina – Holy Schmoly – my mind is going :) Thank you. I don’t like doing the credit thing over the internet. Alex – anyway to send you a money order?

  38. Ben B – would love to hear your story if you want to share. And welcome.

  39. Imo, families are screwed up because two words are not said or not said enough – “I’m sorry”.

  40. Sue, I wish it was as simple as that, but even then, unless it is a godly sorrow, all matter of sin will only grow progressively worse. How many people come before others in tears asking the Lord in their hearts, but are not truely converted. Sorry is, as sorry does.

  41. Alex, I do not like to use PayPal… Is there another way of getting you funds?

  42. Ben Bennett

    The beauty of this blog that Alex has set up is that it permits us to share in such a way that keeps Christ as the main thing while reaching back to bring attention to the truth of how these things came to be as a result of a very unbiblical church structure which fosters leaven and violates New Testament instructions regarding the church and its respective community participants. By sharing your experience, it can be very helpful in ministering to other victims while speaking out that which was not addressed or possibly even heard and acknowledge by the leadership and non-member, members of CC. By sharing, this helps others to know, that your experience and theirs was not an isolated event, but rather all too common. It helps others to take notice and to become more aware that the “Mose’s Model” cannot, but foster such abuse and therefore, must come to an end if the practices of such leaven is going to cease. So, please share with us as your feel comfortable in doing so.

  43. Ben, I’m betting you’ve seen a lot!

    Many stories from our Security Team leaked out over time. The intimidation people felt from being called into a room, door closed, seated on the “hot seat,” pastor wagging his finger at the person, with 7 armed men standing all around was intense.

    Former Pastor Brian Abeyta has been noted as the one who created that environment, according to the victims and sevral who were on his security team and present.

  44. adding to #39 – I mean saying “I’m sorry” not in an empty words way, but in a sincere and compassionate place and of course doing it again and again when I make the same mistakes (or when I make new ones.) I believe God understands our hearts and failings. Man looks on the outer appearance but God looks on the heart. To me, spirituality = humility, not self-righteousness.

  45. Grateful – “Can’t help but suspect Chuck is bankrolling this…” Nop the Chuck I know. In fact, not even a prayer.

    Everyone – credit card processing is a blessing…this biz pays my bills and then some. Get over it. Our identity is wrapped up in Christ anyways. What’s the diff if you lose yours?

    Sue: money order? Come on. I suppose you still have a VHS. LOL

    Grateful: “Guessing from the visitor map that all the main Colorado CC’s have checked this site in the last two weeks.” So I go to a “puny” one on the Western Slope. Front Rangers are all elitists anyways.

    Let’s get some persepctive here on the seminal issue of supporting those in leadership with a story from my Dad…Shecky Greene:

    At the regular Saturday morning service, the rabbi announced that he was
    planning to leave for a larger congregation that would pay him more. There is a hush within the congregation. No one wants him to leave because he is so popular. Fred Silverstein, who owns several car dealerships in Newton and Brooklyn, stands up and proclaims “If the rabbi stays, I will provide him with a new Cadillac every year and his wife with a Honda mini-van to transport their children!” The congregation sighs in appreciation and applauds. Saul Cohen, a successful businessman and lawyer, stands and says, “If the rabbi will stay on here, I’ll personally double his salary and establish a foundation to guarantee a free college education for his children!” More sighs and loud applause. Estelle Rubin, age 72, stands and announces with a smile, “If the rabbi stays, I will give him sex!” There is total silence. The rabbi, blushing, asks her: “Mrs. Rubin, you’re a wonderful and holy lady. Whatever possessed you to say that?” Estelle’s 80-year old husband, Jacob, is now trying to hide, holding his forehead with the palm of his hand and shaking his head from side to side, while his wife replies: “Well, I just asked my husband how we could help, and he said, ‘scr*w him.’”

  46. Jeff LOL hey and I still own not one but two VHS players! But I agree its safe and the banks are on it, the most you would be responible for usually if you report it right away id $50 if that. I bank online all the time too :-)

  47. Sue, I get what you are saying, and for those who are truely sincere that’s good.. Also, God does know the true position of a person’s heart, but we are not God, so we don’t that advantage. Nevertheless, we do have God’s Word that tell us what a person looks like when they are truely sorrowful. It’s not so much the tears that may be shed or even the fruits that last maybe two weeks, before the person cycle their way to being abusive again, but rather, it is the sustainable fruits of a person that exemplies that which would be the fruit of godly sorrow.

    In terms of abuse, saying that you are sorry, but continue to repeat the abuse is not genuine sorrow. In terms of lying, but continue to lie, this is not genuine sorrow. In term of cheating, robbling, stealing, or committing adultery or exhibiting adulterous lustful behavior towards others, but continue to do these and worse after tearfully apologizing and being seemingly humbled and contrite, this is not that person who ought to be viewed as being one who can be trusted he or she will not continue to harm, to hurt, and to destroy you and your loved ones.

    Some will say we are to forgive a person “7 times 70.” But these are usually the people who are the ones who really don’t want to stop the offense or to take a hard line concerning the offender. But neither is really concerned about he or she who has been offended. And unfortunately this norm rather than an infrequent occasion.

    Have you ever considered that when one is really sorry, they don’t repeat the offense, or when they do, it is less than before and mostly does not have to be brought to their attention but is quickly brought out by the offender themselvws to make amends for the offense caused. They certainly do not blamed the person they offended, harmed, or abused. They don’t try to cover it up and they don’t try to argue their way out of it before saying they are sorry, nor do they say, ” I’m sorry for my part of it, now what about you.” Nor do they say, “You have to forgive me. because that’s what God says to do.” Because as soon as you hear this, be sure they haven’t repented at all.

    So, yes Sue — God knows but we in order to protect ourselves we do need to be able to see the fruit of such repentance. Not just hear the words and see the tears. That is, if reconcilation is going to be possible.

  48. My apologies, Sheck! I should have said “Front Range & mountains.”

  49. Sheck #39 – money orders are alive and well! Just had to send one for an apartment I wanted to rent – wouldn’t take a credit card for the first months rent. And yes I still do have a VHS player and old movie tapes, and films of my kids on VHS when they were little that I treasure – and I check out old VHS movies at the library too. I love alot of old movies, that feature actresses like Judy Garland; love Ben Hur and Old Man and the Sea, Wuthering Heights, etc. Also have a DVD player and love modern movies too like Midnight in Paris, etc. Also have a collection of old vinyl records – some of the music you can’t find anymore which I love :)

  50. Sue:

    Let’s see here. I’ll put you to the test. I am going to reprise something I posted on here one and a half years ago that brought me multiple rebukes from the young hellions on this blog that elected Nobama in the first place:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2SaFmAaZDU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Remember it Sue? P.s. chick fllicks are my favorites ad then Rogers & Hammerstein musicals

  51. Jeff Sheck – No I don’t from back then. I do remember a one hit female version.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdWuFaUmwIM

  52. For your listening pleasure —–
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zAX5StHD6A
    night —-

  53. Outstanding quote from discussion happening on PP re: Stepanie Drury interview!

    Poster John says: “So, in the end, if you are part of a group that presently does or in the past has done harm to anyone, and you fail to speak out against it for whatever reason might seem expedient at the time, you are making a decision to accept complicity in those bad acts by virtue of your silence. If you compound your decision to remain silent by choosing also to continue supporting that group both spiritually and materially you have ceased to be a bystander failing to act to prevent wrong and have assumed the role of willing accomplice. Most people make that decision without considering the ramifications of it. Rationalizing your silence does nothing to mitigate its effects.”

  54. Once Upon A Time,

    That is so worth sharing.

  55. Brother Alex,

    I liked the style of your article and the use of scripture, very good and powerful. Please know I am praying for you!

    ~ B.S.

    http://biblesuite.com/1_peter/4-16.htm

  56. @Grateful

    I have seen various responses from you on this article and a few other articles on this site. Your choice to list the full name of the person you wanted to gossip about, yet not providing your own full name is not only perplexing but practically invalidates your flagrant comments. In addition, you are trying to carry on a tale that ended over a year ago. Really?! If any of your statements have an ounce of accuracy, the target of your gossip has moved on with his life. Let me encourage you to do the same – move forward with your own life, seek to edify others, and forgive those who have offended you.

    Jesus is the only true spokesperson for God the Father and Christianity.

  57. CZ, it’s not Biblical Gossip. Look it up. You’re redefining “gossip”…only gossip if it isn’t true. You’ve bought into a definition of the word that is extra-bibilical.

    I don’t blame Grateful for remaining anonymous with the Sue Happy Calvary Chapel Pastors out there LOL.

  58. Alex,
    You are right, it is not biblical gossip, because gossip isn’t biblical.

    Be assured I’m not re-defining the term. I am aware of the definition – as you mentioned, gossip is…”only gossip if it isn’t true”.

  59. CV

    “Let me encourage you to do the same – move forward with your own life, seek to edify others, and forgive those who have offended you.”

    Curious, are you the person who offended Grateful? If not, then who are you to say what is or is not a closed issue? And if you don’t know if the statements are true or not, then how can you say that it is a “tale”. What more, just because the person having caused this offense, that Grateful have shared about has in your words, “moved on.” does not make a wronged done, right. You can sweep it under the rug by calling it gossip, but isn’t that a form of gossip itself? I mean, since you really don’t know the truth and are not really here to bring any type of biblical healing and reconciliation to this issue, are you?

    What you said was just your way of causing doubt to be placed upon Grateful credibility, wasn’t it. Well, I think it backed fired on you. That is unless you would like to be more specific in clarifying why these things are not true?

  60. CZ, well if you’re correct, then you should certainly be able to back up your claim, from Scripture.

    Can you do that for me?

    What does Scripture say “gossip” is?

    …this will be enlightening

    I’ll give you a hint, there is a whole thing about it on this site…and nowhere does Scripture define “gossip” the way you are seeking to define it.

    Warning the church about things that are wrong (and true) is not Biblically defined “gossip”…it is an extra-biblical construction of men to protect their misdeeds from being exposed (and there is much Scripture that commands us to expose it)

    Ephesians 5:11

    Matthew 18 (Tell it unto the Ecclessia, local church, church Universal according to the Greek)

    1 Timothy 5:19-22

    etc etc etc.

    My Position is based on Scripture….not sure what yours is based upon….but I’m all ears

  61. Calvary Chapel (from my readings here and elsewhere, and my own experiences) is attempting to scare the kool-aid drinking sheep away from such information by re-framing it as “gossip” so they can keep a lid on the bad stuff from being exposed.

    It’s a Cult-like tactic…and works on some of those who are predisposed to that sort of manipulation.

  62. In short, “Gossip” is the wrong word for exposing bad deeds (expose the deeds of darkness per Scripture) by men who claim special Anointed Jesus Powers and Prophet status as Positions of Trust in the “office” of Pastor/Elder.

    Now, if it’s a regular schmuck, say the janitor who scrubs the toilets at the local CC Franchise and a the janitor goes into counseling and shares about a problem with alcohol…and then the CC Franchisee “Pastor” tells others about that problem that was told in confidence….then I’d call the “gossip” and worse than that, abuse of the Office.

  63. I hate to burst anyone’s bubble, or crush anyones theology but I heard it said the the Holy Spirit is planning on gossiping, He is threatening to expose things that are in the dark and bring it to the light. Please forgive me for repeating this.

  64. Olivia lol that was good! :-)

  65. Oliva, thank you for the laugh, I needed it. :-) Today I realized once again just how scary spiritual manipulation is and how I allowed myself to be a victim for a long time. I know I am being wise in continuing to remain anonymous right now because I know that CC’s only intention nationwide is to silence anyone who tries to warn the flock but based on the information available to me I believe that because of what seems like scary and godless behavior nationwide in the CC movement for many years, I do not know what to expect from them. If they have had a history of a total lack of sound judgment as to the true nature of past leaders in their ranks nationwide, then how on earth do I know what their current leaders are capable of? Until some things are cleared up I would be taking a risk with carnally-minded people who I believe are hell-bent on pretending to be something that they are not.

    I truly believe that any leader from the CC movement coming on here could care less about gossip. I do not for one minute believe that is the real issue. Even if no one believes Alex or Nick or anyone else on this site and even if every so often there are people drifitng on here who say offensive things (who I believe are CCites trying to discredit this site), how can any godly person look at all that has happened in the CC movement nationwide and not realize that there are serious problems? When I hear of child molestation, lawsuits, power struggles, solicitation and even embezzlement I don’t immediately think of a Christian organization. Yet nationwide each of these terms has been connected with at least one leader or former leader in at least one part of the CC movement over the years. Why on earth would it be gossip to say that a lack of true accountability caused those things to happen and that without repentance and accountability I think that they will continue?

    Don’t take my word for anything I just said! I am just a nameless person! Search it out! The truth is only a search engine away! Look at everything on this site and search it all out! I did and I was shocked! I knew that there were issues that a lack of true godly accountability caused at the CC I left but I was so shocked about the extent of that problem nationwide. I was also ashamed that I had given money to an organization that would allow the type of atmosphere for abuses to take place and to continue without repentance and without remedy.

    How on earth will anyone escape from being deceived if no one is ever warned and if no one researches on their own and if no one believes information that is available in newspaper articles? Are reputable reporters over the years engaging in gossip? Were they all trying to bring CC down? When reporters wrote about men like James Joseph Gould, Dino Cardelli, John Flores, Rodger Allen Thomas, Christopher Guardado, Anthony Iglesias etcetera, etcetera, etcetera were they launching a hate campaign against CC?

    When they documented the embezzlement of funds by an administrator in 2009 at CC Chino Hills and his conviction in 2010, did they have a personal vendetta? What about the 15 million lawsuit that was eventually dropped in 2005 but was launched against CC Laguna Beach by one of its own former leaders? The reporters must have really had it in for CC by documenting such an ungodly violation of 1 Corinthians 6!

    I could list more but instead I ask that anyone reading this would please search it all out for themselves because it all makes me feel physically ill when I think about it. Don’t be the blind being led by the blind!! It is the lack of repentance and the lack of a resolution and plan to correct the lack of accountability and to stop ungodly behaviors from continuing, that troubles me very, very, very much about CC. Nothing good ever comes from a lack of true accountabilty. I actually wonder what they would like to happen before they see their need for it. How much more grace and kindness from God do they need before they are led to repentance? What bothers me is the fact that I am not the only person who has ever asked that question! Search it out! For years there have been blogs documenting comment after comment with similar concerns about CC and yet until my own mind-fog was lifted I did not have a clue! I wonder what would have happened if I did not foolishly dismiss any past whispers about CC as gossip! I am very glad that I escaped from the darkness but I would definitely have benefited from being sober and vigilant long before and if I had actually had the wisdom to search things out! I would have benefited if I had come across a site like this when I first started attending the CC I left! I would have saved myself a lot of pain and would have found a godly church to be a faithful member of and to give my tithes to. I love Jesus and His Church and would not deliberately do anything to harm it and I believe strongly that the unrepentant actions of CC nationwide have done exponential amounts of harm! These nationwide godless deeds are the types of things that turn lost people away.

    No one can tell me that any “good deeds” CC does balance out the evil deeds. I will use a secular example to illustrate the fact that good deeds do not balance out evil deeds: In the secular case of Jerry Sandusky the charitable origanization he started may have helped a larger number of children than he hurt but no person of any moral fiber would ever be tempted to award him again for starting that organization! Why is it that the secular world can see things so clearly? Is the spiritual manipulation of places like CC so endemic that the vision of many “church-goers” nationwide is skewed? The secular world would see that good deeds done with the intention of presenting a beautiful covering for evil deeds are not really “good deeds” but are instead hypocrisy. In the case of organizations like CC, because the world does not know any better, they attribute that hypocrisy to Jesus and His real Church. That is the most painful thing of all!

  66. Overly Concerned,

    You are sharing your heart in a way that I pray many…. but if not many maybe one, maybe one precious soul is beginning to hear and wonder if perhaps this man who is sincere is not warning them about something that is in fact very very serious, and they must spend deep time praying to God in earnest to see if perhaps your warnings are valid. I for one know they are. Maybe we here can save one victim from something they would rather be killed than ever go through. Satan has been at work harming others in a environment where those who could take steps to curtal if not prevent will not, not can not, will not, because it could cost them something. What is it money, hassle, time, less churches for bragging rights, their reputations, their children or grandchildren who always thought that they could do no wrong, feeling like hypocrites because they perhaps have done similar, only God knows all. Funny they do not know history on these things, ask Sandusky, Paterno, the guy who had the ponzi in New York(name escapes) etc. etc. one day they may just wake up in the middle of their worst nightmare and they will know they should have stopped the game, the lie, the crime much sooner. God has the loose end and that lose end it is always in His hands.

    So you my friend who seem to have the spiritual mantel of a father, since your words are weighty and have power, they need your prayers and even your tears before their Father.

  67. Hello. Please be encouraged. These days it’s very hard. May the Lord be merciful to you and help you in the battle.

  68. I stumbled across these comments and found there may be a legitimate concern. However in my personal observation I am unable to identify any of those commenting as born again followers of Jesus the Christ. Jesus himself went through all that was described to have happened to this “pastors” son. What was Jesus’ response? “Forgive them Father they know not what they do”
    A follower of John Calvin will never be able to understand evil men and there actions as followers of Calvin believe evil comes from God and evil acts from God are part of his perfect plan. It is impossible for man to reason with or explain the truth to such people. However with God all things are possible. Please read the holy scriptures with the motive to know Jesus. then and only then will your understanding be enlightened. Then pray to God that his will be done with the “pastor”. Then after a few years of knowing, loving, and following Jesus come back and read your statements.

  69. The Calvary Chapel experience is really scary. The people really do become brain-washed sheep who absolutely hate you with a rage if you dare to question pastoral authority, leadership, or the cultic mentality of the church. Someone is training these pastors to consider themselves gods of some sort. The spirit of celebrity is the spirit of antichrist, and the spirit of control is the spirit of witchcraft. Power is the drug of choice for most Calvary Chapel leadership, whether pastors or congregational members who are rising to the top by gaining points with the leaders for the service they render. The attitude you find is “rule or ruin.” Either you let them rule you or they will ruin you. And everyone is totally blind to these facts. That’s what is so insane and dangerous. You might think the requirement for membership is having a Borderline Personality Disorder. I pray and pray and pray and pray that such genuine and deep repentance will permeate all of Calvary Chapel that true change will come, but so far all I have seen is great resistance to any consideration of repentance as a basic need of the CC movement.

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