Dec 082012

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I received some new information from Bill Alnor’s (now deceased) wife Jackie Alnor. Bill was a part of the Calvary Chapel-Phil Aguilar situation with close knowledge of how that situation went down.

[UPDATE 12/21/12]: According to Jackie Alnor, the Phil Aguilar Investigation and Report was funded and led by Lanette and Jesse Irwin. Alnor continued in a message, “They then gave the huge packet to a few people such as Oden Fong, the then CCOF leader, and to me and my husband, and to author Ron Enroth.”

In Alnor’s opinion, while Oden Fong was the main guy at CCOF at the time and while Chuck Smith is the President of CCOF on IRS documents, Alnor believes that Chuck Smith was not happy with Oden Fong for taking the Aguilar Investigation/Report and leading a Campaign to warn the Southern California public about Aguilar and Set Free.

Alnor said she believes that Oden Fong was fired from his position at CCOF due to this incident.

Alnor did confirm, however, that Chuck Smith had full knowledge that Oden Fong of CCOF (Chuck’s entity) did lead a Campaign against Phil Aguilar for similar allegations of abuse and corruption as Chuck Smith approved CC Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia.

The fact remains, Chuck Smith knew that CCOF had led a Campaign against Phil Aguilar for the same and similar allegations as the Bob Grenier situation and Chuck Smith lied to my face stating CC, CCCM, CCOF had never done that sort of thing and doesn’t do that sort of thing, when clearly they did.

In my opinion, from my dealings with Chuck Smith, he probably hid behind Plausible Deniability in the Phil Aguilar situation when it blew up in his face and TBN (his buddies) freaked out. Kind of a Good Cop / Bad Cop routine, in my opinion. Oden Fong was probably made the Scapegoat and Chuck flashed the patented Papa Chuck® Smile and denied having anything to do with the Campaign (even though Chuck is the President of CCOF and knew what was happening at the time and didn’t stop it, until after it happened and he got massive pressure from Aguilar and the Crouches and TBN).

The information I had at the time I reported it was that CCOF had conducted an “investigation” and published a report on Phil Aguilar. Alnor’s testimony says CCOF took an existing investigation and report on Aguilar and led a Campaign in Southern California against Aguilar (Oden Fong as the lead and the main guy at CCOF).

According to the information I have, Calvary Chapel was sued over this Aguilar Campaign, indicating it was a Calvary Chapel action and not just Oden Fong acting as a Lone Wolf individual separate from his office of CCOF administrator/employ.

Chuck Smith has gotten directly involved, according to several CCCM insiders, with many other Calvary Chapel Affiliate situations including Disaffiliating CC pastors and threatening so-called “independent” Church Boards with not Affiliating their new Pastor if a Severance Package was not to his liking for the old CC pastor (through Chuck’s agents).

To this day, Chuck Smith has not sought me out to reconcile and repent of his lying to my face in our “meeting” at the Logos Building Board Room with Dave Rolph and Chuck’s Attorney Janet Carter.

 Posted by at 2:18 pm

  120 Responses to “Interview with RemnantXRadio discussing Calvary Chapel San Antonio child porn arrest, CC and Bob Grenier’s campaign against Phil Aguilar and the CC Bob Grenier lawsuit”

  1. Alex – I’m not sure you are in the right profession. You’re a great spokesman. Thanks for speaking out publicly against abuse.

    In the interview there was discussion of the hypocrisy that we see when an abuser speaks out against abuse. This is a common pattern of spiritual abusers. It’s narcissistic behavior. I see it all the time in abuse stories people send me. It’s mind boggling.

    I hope many will listen and benefit from it.

  2. Alex,

    Good job, you covered a lot. Much blessings!!!!

  3. Nice interview Alex.

    Mr. Gilliland I interacted with you a few times on several alt. news groups and from what I was seem I was unkind in our interactions, those they were a decade or more. It has bothered me seeing your heart here. I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

    You know I find the Christian religion as practiced the US in the modern evangelical faith rather strange. There was an old phrase in the care giving industry “you can beat them to death as long as their shoes are on the right feet.” No offense but it is sort of like straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

  4. Alex,

    You did a fine job of laying out the issues and explaining how the hypocisy existed when CC pulled out all the stops in their campaign to “protect” the community from Phil Aguilar, but has seemingly made a vow of silence when it has to do with the complaints made against one of their own.

    Julie Anne,

    “In the interview there was discussion of the hypocrisy that we see when an abuser speaks out against abuse. This is a common pattern of spiritual abusers. It’s narcissistic behavior. I see it all the time in abuse stories people send me. It’s mind boggling.”

    Because people don’t know these things, they are easily taken in and made to think what they have been seduced into believing they are what they are not. This is precisely what falls under that which would be called Narcissim, at its best. It’s mind boggling because people who don’t know try to put their own “normal” reasoning upon these things, wanting to give a shadow of a doubt, and not able to quite get a grip on they’re being duped. But when they start asking questions and certain thing do or don’t add up, then the fog begins to clear.

    Alex has gone through horrendous challenges and have come out on top of all the mazes and double talk, that has been a part and parcel of this deception that remains in the brand. He is a champion in my book. What he has done, few victims have been able to accomplish, both personally and publicly. He is real and geniune–not an angel, but a saint who falters and flubs, like the rest of us. His heart is right in all of this. We have heard from him, exhibiting thoughts and feelings of hurt, anger, frustration, patience, and compasion towards and about others. This has been a process, along process for him and I’m sure an exhausting one at times as well. He is to be respected for this, not treated as though he has done anything wrong. For this is exactly what a Narcissist would do as well.

    Alex, well done my frined and brother in the Lord. I say that with a deep conviction within my heart and in my soul, for I know only to well what you have been through and in that, I can say you are speaking the truth as truth needs to be spoken. It is my belief base on God’s words, that this blog is precisely what He is using to bring light into that which lampstand will be taken away, if it does not repent.

    So for all who are out there CC land and to all the Pastors whereever you are, wake up from you slumber and listen to what Alex and others have to say about the church and its leadership’s lack of accountability.

    My prayers and support are continually before the feet of Jesus, Alex. May each word you speak be lined with His wisdom and sheltered from that which is of the enemy. May they reach deep within the hearts of us all to give us the courage as well to do what needs to be done to stop the corruption and abuses that have gone on.

    Thanks again, Julie Anne for reminding us about the Narcissist’s mindset.

  5. Thank you Remnant XRadio for giving Alex to be heard so others can get to know him better and to learned more about Calvary Chapel and the concerns we have about it and its leadership way of handling, or not handling those things that caters to the unleavened practices of courruption and abuses of its congregants, men, woman, and children.

  6. If you have found this blog to be speaking the truth, would you consider giving just $1.00 to say, “Alex and Not Alone we stand with you in this fight for justice.” It’s not the size of the donation that counts, its the fact that you donated something to help. Its a tough economy, and it’s Christmas, so I know many of us have little to spare, but I ask for you to prayerfully consider just even one dollar will make a difference. God Bless

  7. Thanks guys, much appreciated.

    I hope more and more people hear about the Calvary Chapel stuff and I hope eventually there are changes made by Chuck Smith to the CC Association and Affiliation Contract that aren’t petty “distinctives” and the proper way to kiss Chuck Smith’s rear-end…but some actual things that matter like mandatory Child Protections, mandatory Policies to deal with child abuse, molestation, child porn accusations/allegations etc etc.

  8. Alex,

    We stand with you! Thanks for coming on!

    Peace and God Bless!

  9. Incognito, @4

    Please know that was a big blessing for me, your REAL apology, read it twice, thank you.

  10. Folks,
    As long as people are flocking to their churches and the megabucks keeps pouring in, they could care less what other people say about them. Right and wrong, good and evil, or even lawful and criminal are meaningless words to them. It is only what they can and cannot get away with that matters to them.


  11. Had posted these on another page, but meant to post the second post here on this page instead (in case anyone is wondering).

    1. “Truth without grace is deadly, but grace without truth leads to less than successful living as well. In the same way that truth (without grace) can be called judgment, grace (without truth) can be named license. The Scriptures talk about this. See: Galatians 5:13, Romans 6:15-16, Colossians 3:5. The lack of limits in life—the lack of truth and discipline—can lead to a chaotic lifestyle.”

    2. .Was thinking some more about Alex’s discussion with Chuck Smith and how dishearteded I felt in listening to Mr. Smith (I’m sorry, I cannot in all good consceince call him a pastor anymore) skirting and dodging his responsibilities that we all know hinged on holding a pastor account, while also basically told Alex and his brothers and anyone else that if a pastor abuses you—just move on, because if the law doesn’t convict them, then he, the founder and “God’s annointed” was basically beyond having to deal with the aftermath of the harm suffered as a result of washing his hands of anything that might reflect poorly upon him. I was thinking that Mr. Smith went so far to accuse Alex of being bitter and angry and since it happened so long ago, why don’t we just move along as if it never occurred in the first place.

    I was also thinking about how this very same attitude and verbiage seems to reverberate throughout what we know to be Calvary Chapel (s). How grace is taught, yet upon closer examination, it is not grace at all—just cheap renditon of what it really is. For what Mr. Smith has managed to do in all the years that we have known and loved him, he was not a pastor at all, but a person who had a nice smile and taught a kind of grace that completely ignored that which was needed to also hold those to an account that committed such things as we on this blog has shared. Being so, in essence there are many who think they are saved are not. And when speaking of these things to them, they simply regurgitate the same words that Chuck Smith did to Alex on this radio program.

    I once had a conversation with a friend telling me that adultery was not against the law. his position was that since it was not against law, then it ought not be viewed as being something bad, harmful, or immoral. I asked him about God’s law. He told me, yeah, but we are under God’s grace and no longer subject to the law. So, unless the courts wants to get me on something else, I am free to do what I want to do inspite of whom I have hurt. What more, it doesn’t matter because no matter what my sins are forgiven. I asked my friend how he came to these conclusions and he told me this is what he was taught, that God knew he was just a man and that he would sin the rest of his life, but his sins were already forgiven. And so, since the law of man did not condemn or convict him, he is free to do what he knows to be wrong in his heart, because no one has the right to judge him, less they be judged as well. Since the law did not have a hold on him, if he did commit such wrong that is outside of the law’s jurisdiction, then no one ought to accuse him otherwise. I asked him about the harm suffered by others and he told me that Go has told them to forgive him and to get over it.

    God’s law supecedes man’s laws and it doesn’t matter when a sin was committed, there is no statue of limitation upon it. What more not all sins are the same and there are some sins that if left unrepentent in having committed them the Bible does tell us , such a person will spend eternity in hell. At the same time, never once does the Bible tell us that we, as a Christian should turn our head and tap dance around that which has been committe against another in the church. Particularly if it has to do with he who calls himself a brother (sister) and is practicng such things or have committed such things, or are named among those within the leadership of the church.

    Yet this is exactly what we all heard Mr. Smith declare to Alex on this program. Yet, people continue to stand by and do and say nothing, just like this man we have loved and followed and admired and repected in spite of the casualities he has chosen to ignore, believing somehow that this is honoring God? This may be Mr. Smith’s brand of grace, but it has absolutely nothing to do with God’s grace and truth of His Word and the church That Jesus layed down His life for to present as a bride, wash clean by His blood. For the first words that we are told in the New Testament by Jesus is to: REPENT AND BELIEVE. He told us that unless we walk in obedience and put away the things of the flesh, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Never once did it say that Jesus was going to carry our cross for us, but rather we are told that He would be there to enable us to pick up our cross, as we make the choices to do so in following after Him. And part of this has to do with applying church discipline as we have been instructed to do, regardless of the limitations that man’s laws may or may not confirm or deny. Regardless, of the unpopularity to deal with those things that aught not be mentioned among us.

    Chuck Smith’s handling Alex’s complaint and request is that of a hypocrite, straining at a knat and swallowing a camel. There are many ways to commit adultery. The Bible tells us of the physical, psychological, mental, sexual, economic, and spiritual adulteries commit against each other, and in so doing, they are against God. I Hosea, we are to read and to learn and to understand and to apply these things, knowing that although God is long suffering and ever so patient, He is ajust God as well. And if our church and its leadership does not deal with those things that have to do with the issues of the heart, then He will and there will be a great wailing and gnashing of the teeth that the world has never heard before. So for any person, such as Chuck Smith to smile and tell anyone to just move along and to get a life, while ignoring that which he does not want to deal with, but has been clearly told by New Testament teachings—to protect and get rid of the leaven, particularly those that have harmed and injured the most vulnerable of the flock, using specific church discipline processes that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything outside of the church such as civil or criminal laws, codes, or procedures. But has everything to do with exposing the evil and by doing so, not participating in it by persecuting the victims by such statements made to Alex on this program and by using silence to silenced those whom have brought such complaints to his doorsteps.

    This grace we have been given is that through the Cross covered with the spilled blood of Jesus cannot not be taken so lightly. It is not a license to sin, nor is it a license to ignore those things that we know and have witnessed to be committed, thereby flaunting such filth and degradation, as if we are worshipping a pagan god flaunting all manner of fleshly lust, desires, and hedonistic pleasure. Yet that is precisely what is being supported when even the leadership is permitted to practice such things and not be deemed to be having to be held to an account by those from who calls themselves a Christian Pastor.

    My heart was broken and grieved in hearing this discussion between Alex and Chuck Smith. Yet thankful in shedding more light upon my own situation with CC. I have learned that Chuck Smith truly does not know where he ends and God begins. Calvary Chapel was not built upon the foundation of Christ, but upon an unscriptural model of leadership called the “Moses Model.” Which by the way, is when the real and only Moses was given the law. But then along the way, Chuck Smith and Lonnie Frisbee decided to replicate this system, by using the gospel of grace to draw people in and by using music, using God’s name. So here you have a system of the law led by a psuedo Moses, who is not accountable to anyone, because he says he is not————–and if——you follow after him, you can have your own little kingdom too———-if you are a man, and don’t rock the boat. Just keep bringing them in and telling them “it’s all good.” When in fact, according to Scripture, many are perishing due to this false gospel of grace that you have led them to believe. Funny, how so many wants a Savior (like you have exemplified), but don’t want to be held to an account, thus making Jesus, LORD.

    Shame on you Chuck Smith. The Emperor has no clothes on and you fall far from even touching the hem of Moses, and even Paul who taught law and grace, by the way. And by the way, Paul and Moses each had a daytime job while shepherding, teaching, protecting, and holding their own to an account, while feeding and ministering to those who were in want and beaten down by the wolves that had entered in. Not to turn away and say—–”IT’S NOT MY PROBLEM—IT’S NOT MY CHURCH—–IT’S NOT MY CONCERN—–THE LAW DID NOT CONVICT THEM——-STATUE OF LIMITATION RAN OUT——-MAN’S LAW DOES NOT FORBID THIS, THEREFORE——-I CANNOT JUDGE THE HEART OF AN ADULTERER OR CHILD MOLESTOR—-YOU SHOULD NOT TOUCH GOD’S ANNOINTED, THERFORE I STAND BEFORE THE CONGREGATION AND CALL YOU NAMES AND TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE ANGRY, BITTER, A LOOSE CANNON, AND AT BEST SOMEONE THAT JUST NEEDS TO MOVE ALONG AND GET A LIFE. But whatever I do unless the law convicts a person, I will not hold a Sr. Pastor or one who wants to be or to continue to be a pastor to an account.

    With all due respect, this is not what my Bible says. And neither does yours.


    Did you read this article, I knew some of the folks trashed by this product line, they were trashed in spades. Granted that is the price people pay for being in the faith, and that is no the cheap end. We should all be willing to be gutted for the pastor. Well screw that noise these clowns are nuts and no I will not drink the cool aide. Just read through the article if this is not an example of the “Moses” model I don’t know what is. I mean I wrote this clown off long before his “polished shaft” sermon, trust me dont ask if you dont know you dont want nor need to know. These people are nutz they really are and they drag many others off the nut cliff daily.

    I mean its time to grow up, Smith, and his cohorts made bank on the Jesus movement, while Lonnie Frisbee and Kathryn Kuhlman lay cold in their graves while the happy throng dance on their memories. I mean come on what a bunch of ghouls. Chuck Smith spoke at Mr. Frisbees memorial service, go check it out, my goodness. It made me want to puke. Look Im sure Pastor Chuck did some great good, but he and his raked in the cash, I mean big time. None of us leverage such assets and his kin will do fine when Pastor Chuck joins Mr. Frisbee in the hear after. I hope that day is long away, I even hope Pastor Chuck is healed, more then was wished for Lonnie.

    For goodness sake here is this man suing his son, there is abundant evidence that there needs to be repentance. Mr Smith be a pastor and do what Paul or Jesus or John or … would do, cleanse the temple and allow God to heal the land. My father did far less and he would not be considered a Christian by any connection but on his death bed he wanted reconciliation with his children no matter what the cost.

    No offense but I dont get why many evangelicals are not satisfied with the One death of Jesus, they seem to keep trying to get Him back on that cross to just hammer one more nail into him or get one more spear. I mean God was satisfied why aren’t you?

  13. Incognito

    It’s so frustrating to see people buying into this cheap form of grace that mocks our Lord and Savior and makes Scripture anemic in understanding the God is a fearsome God and cannot dwell with darkness, thereby cannot accept those who flaunt their sins proclaiming because “they believe, . . . . . ” God tells us that He is Holy, therefore, we are to be Holy as well. A Holy People separated, purged from all unrighteousness, walking in the light, giving no excuse, and bearing a good witness to the unsaved. Not a false appearance that hide and cover up sins that we secretly use to garner or heap up that which is not ours to have, simply to fill that empty hole in our hearts that is a telling fruit that we have not repented and we have not believed.

    People who are not really repentant do not understand that it’s not about scapegoating your wretched heart and ungodly deeds as you raise your hands up to and on to the Lamb that was slain, then say or teach that you are a Christian.

    It’s about accepting that “you” are separated from God, unless you truly repent and follow after Him in obedience and submit to His will and His Lordship over everything that you do and say, from the time that your sins were nailed to the cross when “you” first believed. Because, if you are “really” saved, it would be grievious to you, now filled with the Holy Spirit to make an excuse to use Him as a scapegoat and crucifying Him over and over and over again.

    Pseudo Christianity and Cheap Grace draws many, yet Jesus tells us to:

    Matthew 7:13-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

    29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

    Galatians 6:6-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

  14. uriahisaliveandwell wrote: “unless you truly repent and follow after Him in obedience and submit to His will and His Lordship over everything that you do and say, from the time that your sins were nailed to the cross when “you” first believed.”

    Over EVERYTHING you say and do? Everything? So you have therefore achieved sinless perfection I take it and have everything in your life under His lordship. Everything. If not, then you lied by saying “everything”. Since you sin sometimes still. Then you must adjust your wording, but, what will you adjust your wording to?

    I thank God that John 3:16 is in the Bible. Grace cannot be cheap or expensive. Grace is free.

  15. Abe,

    You missed the point entirely: the more you walk in the spirit, the more you grow in Christ and the more you bear the fruits of the spirit and the more you abide in Him. Thus not making an excuse, but pressing forward instead walking in obedience and thereby sin less and less. There’s a real difference between using God’s grace as an excuse to continue in our sin and using God’s grace to walk away from sin.

    The truth is the truth, no matter if no one believes it. Just like some people say that God does not exist or that they can mock Him — the truth is the truth, and God does not change and He does not compromise it or sell out the blood that was shed for that which is anything that is less than what He has done in the name of truth, love, and justice.

  16. You just contradicted yourself. You started by saying that the demand is EVERYTHING you say and do. That’s absolute. That’s not the same as growth in Christ. Pick one.

  17. And while you think upon those two options, I will pick a third option, that option being John 3:16.

  18. Abe,

    What more, grace is not free–it was bought with a great price, and in that how dare anyone make Jesus their Savior, but not your Lord — for even the demons believed, and do that which emulates a seared conscience.

    When teaching anything, one must look take all scripture into an account. John 3:16 only part of the gospel message. Many quote part of a passage, that in itself may place an entirely different mean, thus understanding upon what was supposed to be understood, had it been read in its entire context:

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Do you know the difference between Romans 7 and Romans 8?

    Do you realize that if you are saved, the works that are done as an evidence of the Holy Spirit within you are entirely different thatn those done in the flesh. For, instance, if and when you do sin, you don’t make excuse for it, as already discussed in my former comment. Read and Reread, Romans 8. Never once, did Paul and anyone else for that matter ever tell us that we could not overcome a son or that we would have to wrestle with it for the rest of our lifes, but rather over and over and over again–we are told loud and clear, purge it and stop making excuses and scapegoating onto others, while continuiing in it at the same time. It’s about the heart and how it needs to change and it will change as we walk in obedience and realize just what it means to love God and others instead of using each for our own self centered agendas. But we cannot do this, unless we are truly born again. That means to believe that He is God and that He is the way, the life, and the truth and apart from Him—–You can do nothing, but “in” Him—all things are possilbe. By His Holy Spirit you can say “no” to sin and “Yes” to those things that are of the Lord. And the more that you do—-you will find that you do sin less. Read James.

  19. How can a person say they believe in Him, but do not obey His Word? How can they say, that His blood and death, and resurrection gives them liberty to sin, while failing to love Him and others in process of committing these sin. 1 John 3. Romans 8.

  20. Romans 8:1
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    Free from Indwelling Sin
    8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Unfortunately the latter part of this scripture has been basically deleted from translation that are of the byzantine scrolls found in the Vatican library wastebaskets, then translated by those that were of the Germanic liberal (and humanistic) persuasion, using the higher critical text method for interpretation. [Hort and Wolcott, who were not of the Christian faith} They weaved the latter half of this text in but in such a way that does not make it clear that one must be walking in the spirit if one wishes to avoid condemnation.

    All throughout the New Testament, we can read and catch statement that's qualifies one's standing in Christ Jesus------You might want to start noting the, "if" "when" "but" "and" and see if what I am saying does not indicate this.

    Jude 1-25

    Apostates Depraved and Doomed

    12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

    14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

    Apostates Predicted

    16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

    Maintain Your Life with God

    20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

    Glory to God

    24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
    And to present you faultless
    Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To God our Savior,[g]
    Who alone is wise,[h]
    Be glory and majesty,
    Dominion and power,[i]
    Both now and forever.

  21. Abe,

    I have a couple of comments in moderation due to scripture references.

    But for now I will say this to your comment: “You just contradicted yourself. You started by saying that the demand is EVERYTHING you say and do. That’s absolute. That’s not the same as growth in Christ. Pick one.

    No I am not contradicting myself at all. But what you would like to think that I said is based upon what your own interpretation vs. what I have offered means. That is not a contradiction. That is simply not understanding what I am saying. Hopefully, the comments that are in moderation will clear up some of this for you.

  22. We Chuck has too many scandals going on, I believe that Chuck created a system that is much much on its own and doesn’t have accountability. Its too late for Chuck.

  23. uriah, I’m not interested in reading your sermons, so I didn’t read them. A discussion with you is fine, but not four consecutive long posts. I’m not reading it. I have eternal life based on John 3:16 and the countless verses like it. And grace is free to me, because Jesus paid for it. I’m sorry it’s not free to you. If you believe you must work for salvation, that is your problem. I already have salvation. Toodles.

  24. Abe, so what you have just stated is essentially you want to hang your hat on one verse and not consider those that I have offered you. Abe, you won’t even read the verses that follow after the verse that you shared. Hmmm, I believe the Bible tells us that we should take in the full counsel of God, not just those that suit or fit within that which you would like to believe, perhaps to give you an excuse to live the way you might be living and to indulge in what you may be seeking after. Be careful, my friend for this how many have gone astray and been deceived thinking they were saved.

  25. The entire Bible from cover to cover supports that “one verse I’m hanging my hat on”. It’s just a summary. So as not to give you fifty pages to read that you won’t read anyway. I’m not sure what your goal is in this. If your goal is to make me think I’m not saved, I’ll never speak to you again. Jesus took care of that on the cross, and I won’t accept your blasphemously suggesting otherwise.

  26. Abe,

    You simply missed the entire point of what the difference is between Romans 7 and 8.
    You sound very angry, so I am not going to belabor this topic with you. But I would be interested in hearing about what you think of this blog and Alex’s discussion with Chuck Smith on the Radio Program.

  27. I listened to the Remnant X Radio interview. I will say with great firmness that before my involvement with this blog I knew nothing about Remnant X yet astonishingly even the song before the interview (Television Evangelist) resonated with me deeply! I am so thankful for that! It makes me see that there are people on the alert that CC and other organizations like them, are evidence of the spirit of antichrist that has been at work for millenia. I truly believe that CC is just like organizations before that were not started by the work of the Holy Spirit but by the fleshly work of men wanting money and fame. It is organizations like this that have tried to corrupt the true Gospel of Christ. The enemy has functioned with the “If you can’t beat them join them” mentality since the beginning of the Church! The Gospel has survived though because the Holy Spirit is still at work calling people into relationship with Jesus and these people worldwide constitute the true Church that Jesus is building.

    I believe that the lack of discernment in CC nationwide has one simple, biblical explanation: As an organization they do not have the Holy Spirit and without the Holy Spirit no one can discern anything beyond the five senses. When the “Word” is preached without the Holy Spirit, lives are not truly changed from the inside out. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. When people hear CC “simply preach the Word simply” they learn how to maintain a dead facade of godliness, but there is no power to change their hearts. The effect is a works-based theology or an overwhelming struggle with the desires of the flesh or a dangerous combination of both. The result in a congregation living under that type of reality is everything from: suicidal and psychotic behavior, to adultery and fornication, to abusive behavior in homes, to criminal behavior including drug use, theft, fraud and violent crime, to pornography and pedophilia to every single heinous sin and offense possible. Why? The reason is simple: Calling yourself a church does not make you part of the Church that Jesus is building. Multiple godless organizations over the years are proof that this true!

    Each member organization within the CC franchise is subject to the spiritually dark reality of the organization as a whole and that is why the same heinous behavior is seen nationwide from the north, south, east and west. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit! Additionally there is a very specific “testimony” of how many of these CC franchises get started: Someone involved in criminal activity of some sort (very often drug use and distribution) “finds Jesus” through a CC or a CC member and then is “led” to another region of the country or state (where no one knows them) to start a church. Years later the past criminal activity is worked in as part of the “miraculous hand of God” but none of these men ever seem to be truly discipled or tested to see if they are not really novices or beyond reproach. They also attract men under them with similar backgrounds or connections in other types of crime or just men whose ideology is worldly and not spiritual. Every so often they add a godly person into the mix to keep the facade up and then as the organization grows in whatever region, they develop relationships with law-enforcement and whenever something heinous happens they are usually able to keep it quiet unless someone leaves and exposes it and then every attempt possible is made to discredit that person if that person does not agree to “leave quietly”. Why is that pattern so prevalent? This is not the pattern of the Church that Jesus is building. Additionally if you really take a look at the history of the early CC organization you see roots of rebellion from the biblical outlines of Church government early on. You also see evidence of men with unchanged lives leading other people to a powerless reality of unchanged lives! This is nothing new, this is what CC has always been based on their own historical information!

    I come on this blog asking people to examine themselves and see if Christ is truly in them. I did it! Hey I’ll even do it right now with you! I am not asking something that I was not or am not willing to do myself! There are things written in the Bible that we might know we have eternal life. These things give us confidence that Jesus is truly in us and that we are truly heaven bound and that we can rest easy knowing that we are His. 1 John 5 highlights part of what it means to truly belong to Jesus. If anyone has not come to a true belief in Christ and receiving of Christ as Lord, they are not saved. Yes you may have walked forward during an altar call but that is meaningless if you do not have a true relationship with God that is testified to by the Spirit and the Word of God. On the last thread I read some comments that made me want to beg again that people truly examine themselves. People kept trying to point out that the heinous, satanic behavior of so many CC leaders that has been highlighted on here, could happen to any Christian! That should not be true!!!! Jesus died and rose again so that we not only get forgiveness for our sins, but also so that we can walk in newness of life…so that we can walk as He walked! I ask humbly that everyone would read through 1 John 1 to 1 John 5. Five small chapters is all I’m asking for.

    I can keep talking until I am blue in the face, much of what I am saying will not be grasped unless the Holy Spirit speaks to the spirits of those listening and unless they do not resist what He is saying. At the CC I left, among the leadership, the truth of the radical life changing power of the Gospel, could not be fully realized, because the organization of itself was so fully a work of the flesh that anyone coming under that type of authority had submitted their lives to bondage. CC as a whole is not Spirit-led so people coming in who actually know the Lord are allured into a fleshly lifestyle. That is possible or Peter would not warn us that false teachers can have that effect! 2 Peter 2:18-19 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

    I saw no evidence of Spirit-led thinking from the CC leaders and followers who spoke on the last thread! They all seemed to be trying to maintain the right to “powerless living” or a “works-based reality” or “worship of a CC leader” or many other things that have been highlighted as problems at many CCs on other blogs! Folks, none of us can fool God! A lack of power to live right means we do not fully understand the radical nature of what Jesus did or that we are deceived about what our lives should look like after experiencing what Jesus did or that we do not know Him at all! Matthew 7 folks….that is a sad reality that no one ever needs to experience but which many will if they do not truly turn to Jesus for a true relationship with Him! Imagine being told to depart because He does not know you???!!! I cannot imagine a worse fate! Imagine coming so close, hearing about the work of the Cross and the resurrection and not really accepting it, but instead accepting some powerless lie that cost you a relationship with the beautiful Savior of all both here on earth and in eternity? That’s what many have done at CC and the results of that fact are evident: Pedophiles and child abusers and embezzlers and deviants of all sorts everywhere across the nation, for many years as part of the leadership ranks in one capacity or another!

    I was even saddened by the poor well-intentioned babes or perhaps even unsaved people who added comments on the other thread giving the earthly definition of gossip. I was once a well-intentioned CC babe because I refused to eat the meat of the Word of God and allowed myself to be fed by false teachers. I knew people just like myself who were babes and who allowed themselves to be kept in bondage, but I also knew many people who had walked the aisle to the altar and even been baptized by CC, who did not know Jesus at all and even a few who admitted that to me in confidence! Examine yourselves! None of us can fool God! To the babes: It is time for us to grow up and move on from the elementary principles to the perfecting work God wants to do in us (read Hebrews 6!) To those who deep down inside know that they do not know Jesus, please right now as you read this, cry out to Him!

    Back to the whole gossip drama/dilemma: Paul and John called people BY NAME who were doing ungodly things in the early Church and showing themselves to be false teachers and impostors!!!! With CC we have an entire organization that is rotten to the very core and things are being revealed BY THE MEDIA CONSTANTLY to show that, that is true. In the past CCs nationwide were able to keep those things quiet and congregants were uninformed, but now they are not as able to do so. But as far as the whole “gossip” drama some poor souls have tried to bring up on here, I will say this once again and hopefully this will put that immaturity to rest: PAUL and JOHN called out impostors in the CHURCH BY NAME!!!!!!!

    1 Timothy 1:18-20 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    3 John 1:9-10 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.

    Just in case you were wondering about the other apostles and disciples of Jesus who wrote parts of what we call the New Testament, they spoke strong words about evil behavior that could not be tolerated because it would spread like leaven throughout the Church. I am not going to go into definitions and disputes about what gossip is but the fact that PAUL and JOHN named names of wicked men clearly outlines what gossip is NOT. So put that bit of drama to rest once and for all. This morning though my primary goal is to have us all truly examine ourselves. CC cannot tell you that you are going to heaven. No leader can give you the stamp of approval that you are going to heaven. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were “sons of hell”. They were the most outwardly righteous people of their day and were viewed as leaders, but the truth was far different from the facade and they were bound for hell. CC and other organizations like it are some of the most outwardly righteous organzations of our day, always publicizing their “good works”, just like the Pharisees did, but the truth, as evidenced by the fruit, is far different from the facade!!! So a CC leader cannot guarantee you that you are going to heaven. Actually no leader can make that guarantee. We each need to be certain of that truth for our own lives individually. The answer is so simple:Jesus. Jesus, the way, the truth, the life. Jesus all day, every day is the Author and Finisher of our faith! He is faithful to complete the good work He began in us. He is faithful to present us blameless before the Father! If He hasn’t yet begun that good work in anyone reading this let Him do that today…respond to the Holy Spirit’s call and experience the life-changing, radical, powerful, beautiful, loving and gracious reality of the finished work of the Cross and all that it can truly do in your life!

  28. @Uriahisaliveandwell…
    I prefer brevity. Are you capable of summarizing your thoughts?

    One of the irritations I have had to endure within the Church is that some people cut their theological bread so thin, it’s not even worth eating.

  29. Oops Wide Awake were you talking to me or Uriahisaliveandwell? I have a very long one in moderation. It was difficult to condense. If it is too long and you are one of the moderators then just erase it for now and I will repost it on another day when I have a chance to try some more to condense it.

  30. OC, I personally enjoy reading your sermons, lol it’s like a daily devotion.

  31. Wide Awake @ 29

    I prefer brevity. Are you capable of summarizing your thoughts?

    One of the irritations I have had to endure within the Church is that some people cut their theological bread so thin, it’s not even worth eating.”

    I think this is for me, as I cannot imagine anyone not being fed by OC—no matter how long the comment may be.

    So, thinking has to do with my own comments–will work on it. Thanks for the feedback. Please keep in mind, often it has to do with one specific commenter, such as Abe. So, I shared what comes to mind and hope it is beneficial. One other thought. Was it all that long, or was it long when using scripture.

    Wide Awake, your second comment: “One of the irritations I have had to endure within the Church is that some people cut their theological bread so thin, it’s not even worth eating.”

    I’m not clear on what you are saying here, but if you are speaking of meatier things, first I am glad to hear that you desire or prefer such. At the same time, sometimes it’s best to keep the water thin, in order not to bog down one that needs milk, but not meat.

    Overly Concerned, since you use an anonymous tag, like myself —–I assume you cannot or choose not to say what you as a Christian do. I so look forward to reading your essays, no matter how long they may be. It is meat to my bones—and on this blog, we can certainly use it to hold us stedfast and true to the faith.

    Please know as I was writing my comments and thereafter, I was thinking—”Where’s Overly Concerned, Lord.” “Sure would like to hear from this one, as the last two threads have brought forth several comments that I just know can be better addressed given how you go about taking things in, pondering, and then setting it up and laying it all out.

    Thanks again, Wide Awake—still not clear though on what you shared. :-)

  32. Wide Awake,

    I just reviewed my comments. In reference to this thread, I don’t consider them to be view long at all, that is unless, you are including the scriptures that were referenced after one or two short paragraphs.

    Overly Concerned mentioned that you may be one of the moderators, so if you are, then you would be more comfortable in emailing me or sharing with Alex and he can clue me in.

    And if it is Overly Concerned that you were speaking to instead and you are the moderate, please do not cause this person to draw back from what they have to share. I, for one cannot express what great depth of blessing I receive when reading through his comments. And you know, what—for me they are always right on time.

  33. Wide Awake—so sorry

    so if you are, “perhaps,” you would be more comfortable in emailing me or sharing with Alex and he can clue me in.

  34. In consideration that Wide Awake is not a moderator for this blog, I am even more curious to understand your comment. Until then, I would like to suggest that if you have difficulty with those like Overly Concerned and me, that you either just skip over them, or take it a line at a time in order to process what it is that we are attempting to communicate.

    Brevity is good, but if this is only way one is able to communicate, then it greatly hinders those from expounding upon those issues or points that requires a greater depth of information that oftens is better able to get to the heart of the issue. For those who have questions regarding what is being shared specifically, they can then ask them to gain a better understanding of specific points being made. I would hope if this is the case, it is done with respect and consideration and not as a way of being defensive or beligerant towards the person who did take the time out of their day to share their heart and their concerns.

    Overly Concern, please post the comment that you had in mind to do. I, for one am nourish, fed, and strengthened by your words of wisdon, love, concern, and biblical balancing of those things which we contend and that need to heed.

  35. Overly Concerned,
    Good post! You’ve hit the nail on the head…no Holy Spirit equals no power over sin, no power to save, no power to change the hearts of people sitting under a false prophet…NO FRUIT! People who continue to sit under bob/chuck are under a spell, waiting for bob to tell them what to do. They refuse to think for themselves, only wanting approval from bob and acceptance into the inner circle which leads to preferential treatment. The people at Calvary who are truly saved don’t fit in and get confused by the rejection and unfriendliness/unfairness of the leaders and always feel like God must be mad at them because they aren’t being faithful by giving enough or doing enough.

  36. @Your Mom – Well Said!

  37. Overly Concerned,
    Your Bible references were perfect.

    The 3 John 1:9-10 reference describes what bob/chuck do on a regular basis…

    *They love to have preeminence.
    Community recognition with mayors, councilmen, law enforcement, newspapers, television, using Hurricane Katrina and Super Storm Sandy and any opportunity to get a picture of themselves holding the Bible open with their eyes closed, speaking in a slow methodical manner…

    *They do not receive true believers, and forbid those who wish to, putting them out of the church.
    Look at the many who have been beaten down and have left Calvary. Some have been able to plug into a church and connect with true believers but many have just given up.

    *They prate with malicious words against true believers…
    They call, write letters, email community pastors warning them about those who have left Calvary. They forbid congregants of Calvary to associate with us.

    Sounds familiar.

  38. Thank you Your Mom. You also hit the nail on the head but with far fewer words…maybe you can teach me that skill :-) A sense of humor and laughter is such a blessing! I am convinced that in the midst of everything happening worldwide and in our individual lives God wants us to still have joy on the inside and to laugh. Your Mom I have to say that what you said was so powerful that it resonated deeply with me. Thank you. To everyone else: I am working on brevity but there is so much that is on my heart. One day I’ll learn how to make it shorter :-)

    First of all: Today the feeling of gratitude I have for this blog and for Alex and for everyone who contributes to it is so real that I have to voice it. Thank you everyone!

    We were warned in the Bible over and over and over about impostors and false teachers and people who would try to draw us into bondage and away from God’s overwhelming grace and away from the Gospel and instead would try to make us zealous for them. We are told to turn away from these people and not to put up with them and we see Jesus and the beloved apostles and disciples in the Bible warning everyone about them. Yet in these times when these men appear on the scene we don’t know how to respond. By “we” I mean the blood-bought children of God, the redeemed, those who know that without Jesus Christ their lives would be nothing and that they would be naked, poor, wretched and blind without Him…When I say “we” I mean the Church worldwide, the beautiful Bride Christ is preparing to be spotless and without blemish. There are many of us on this blog. There are many of us on the planet! :-) But boy oh boy is the enemy mad at that because as he sees people rise up and refuse to live by his lies he is reminded that his time is short.

    I love the Church. When I am in a different place and I meet someone who knows Him there is an immediate recognition. We are part of a Body that Jesus is the head of. My only grief is that we do not know what to do with all that does not truly belong to that Body. Instead of recognizing that the impostors and false teachers are in the wrong and in need of correction and salvation, we forget the things the Bible says about those wicked leaders and lack the confidence in Christ to tell them firmly that they do not represent our Savior. We think something is wrong with us instead and eventually begin to ignore parts of the Bible because other parts are played-up by those deceivers to continue to keep us under a mind-controlling spell. Your Mom put it so well!

    “The people at Calvary who are truly saved don’t fit in and get confused by the rejection and unfriendliness/unfairness of the leaders and always feel like God must be mad at them because they aren’t being faithful by giving enough or doing enough.”

    That statement was like a snapshot of my life at the CC I left! I gave more, served more and even tried to love more telling myself that the constant godlessness around me was an inevitable part of living in this world…and by constant godlessness I mean constant godlessness! I believed lies about what the Church should look like. For instance a common lie was that if someone is employed in a lower capacity by a church then their job should be more stressful than someone with a secular job and they should work harder and get paid for less hours as a service to the Lord and should be treated as a slave to prove themselves. I saw friends who were church employees have the life squeezed out of them and think that was just part of how Christian underlings get treated by their leaders. That is a lie…yet there are many people reading this who are so used to the lie that they probably think that my saying so is naive.

    When I left CC I actually found a church and a few other churches where the Holy Spirit is present in all His power and comfort and employees love the Lord and their leaders and do not feel like slaves, but feel valued and honored and loved and as if they are part of the Body doing a special work in administrating among the whole flock. These places operate like they understand that the people in the Church are the Church. They think of themselves as part of the Church worldwide and do not believe that the church is the building or just the leadership. These “churches” are all part of the “Church” Jesus is building. Be encouraged my friends: there are places like that everywhere whether we know about them or not. It is very much like Elijah and the prophets who God had hidden that he did not know about. The enemy has not won. He has not destroyed the Bride of Christ! We are everywhere, even some of us trapped in places like CC feeling out of place and disoriented but not pressing into the Word of God enough to know why.

    False teachers, deceivers, people who pander to itching ears, men who derive exorbitant profit from God’s people, liars, Gospel-twisters, blasphemers….all of these things we were warned about in the Bible! I may have provided a few verses in my last post but for us to truly be prepared to handle these men we need the Holy Spirit to hide the Word in our hearts. We need the implanted Word and we need one other thing….we need to be willing to grow up! :-) I smile because it is a hard reality. To truly understand the more difficult parts of scripture where God strikes deceivers like Ananias and Sapphira dead or renders sorcerors like Elymas blind, we need to grow up!

    We have all these bizarre concepts that God suddenly one day decided that wicked men who try to deceive the Holy Spirit and to deceive people who Christ died for, with false theology and spiritual bondage, are okay with God! When exactly did God say that those deceivers were His friends? I cannot find any reference unless it is taken out of context to support wicked men who live pretentious lives as being tolerable to God. Everything I find is a warning to the flock to beware of them and their leaven and to turn away from them! That’s why I say that the Church needs to submit itself to the Holy Spirit and grow up!I People who have submitted themselves to the maturing work of God’s Word read the warnings in the Word and heed them and warn others to heed them also. On the other hand people who believe that wicked men who claim to know Jesus are okay with God, are still clinging to elementary principles and babyish thinking. How do I know that? I was like that once! There were whole parts of the Bible that I would have preferred not to address! But God is balanced in everything that He does. He is loving and gracious and good and merciful and perfect and true and too amazing for words and He remains exactly the same throughout the ages and it is this God who warned us about impostors and had all the biblical disciples warn us as well!!! He does not change. While He is all the awesome things that make us feel warm and fuzzy inside, He is also the one who will cast into outer darkness those who He does not know. He prepared one perfect way for all of us to be with Him forever but those who reject that way will not be with Him, they will be in hell which was prepared for the devil. Those who lead people away from the truth and into lies are told that there is “Woe” for them and these are the men we are warned about over and over and over and over and over again in the Bible ….the ones who have a form of godliness but lack the power, the ones we should turn away from!

    Solid food does not belong to babes but instead to those who use and sharpen their senses in the discerning of good and evil. I won’t give the scripture references today.:-) Search it out! The Bible is beautiful! It contains life-giving truths! Kings get to search out the truths God has concealed. That is true for the Bible but true of other hidden things as well. What I mean is this: It isn’t those who bury their heads in the sand who identified/identify the evil in things like slavery or the holocaust or any of the wickedness of the ages past and present and to come. We have to be willing to accept the truth that something is wrong in order to be part of fixing what is wrong. That takes maturity. Babies pretend everything is okay and that if they just continue playing everything will continue to be beautiful. Mature people who take authority and responsibility when they see wickedness have always been the ones who brought change. Not the babyish response that some have in refusing to see the problems and thinking that if they only focus in on parts of the Word that deal with grace and love then all of the warnings about deceivers and impostors will disappear from the Bible. God is balanced. There is nothing that His grace cannot cover yet in His grace He tells us how to deal with wicked men who deceive others into believing lies about Him.

    I have seen in my life that grace and love have wiped away years of hurt and pain and also brought wisdom to areas where I was once like a baby before. Now I am not afraid to read the whole Bible and accept God as the balanced, unchanging awesome One that He is. All of the truths in the Bible are equally true! :-) Search them out! Let the Holy Spirit tell us all what He thinks about wicked men and don’t instead be led by any false understanding that we have to tolerate being placed in bondage to their lies and false doctrine. Realize that lies and false doctrine are an offense to the Cross and in the case of organizations like CC they are also an offense to the world as evidenced by the rotten, festering fruit of child molestors and thieves and abusers nationwide. If we all go to the Lord and lay down our own preconceived human reactions and instead ask Him to show us the truth from His Word, He will! He wants the Church to look like the Church and the world to know the power of the Cross and resurrection by looking at those whose lives have truly been transformed by it! What He did for us was beautiful and we should look more and more and more and more and more like Him every day.

  39. I had a little more to present for your consideration. :-) There is an area of scripture I want to share because I have heard it used out of context time and again and I believe the result is part of why places like CC and other carnal organizations flourish. Before I say what it is please remember that God does not change. The person He is in Genesis is the same person He is Revelation. In the beginning of the book He told us that if we ate of the tree we would surely die, in the middle of the book God became flesh and dwelt among us and that certainty of death was experienced by Him on the Cross so that we would have eternal life through His resurrection and at the end of the book anything that is not part of the awesome plan of eternal life and obedience and unity with God is cast into the lake of fire for the final death. The truths of the Word are preserved throughout. They do not conflict.

    So what is the area of scripture that I need to bring up? It is Matthew 13. In it we see a teaching on the wheat and tares. I have heard people use this teaching to explain why we should tolerate deceivers and leave them alone. I admit that I even believed this for two reasons: 1) I didn’t ask the Lord to reveal what He was saying and 2) I didn’t READ the text! When I read the text I realized that what Jesus is explaining about deceivers is why there are deceivers in the first place. He is also explaining that there will always be deceivers until the last day when they are all removed and cast into the fire.

    He talks about the fact that He plants the wheat and the devil plants the tares and He speaks of “servants” who have been watching this happen. He tells the “servants” observing not to touch the wheat and tares. He tells the “servants” that the wheat are sons of the kingdom and that the tares are planted by the devil. At no point are the wheat told how to handle the tares in this area of scripture. The “wheat” and the “tares” are not the “servants” and “reapers” . Wheat=sons of the kingdom and tares=those planted by the devil. We know for certain that the reapers are angels. The story does not specifically mention who the “servants” are but they cannot be the wheat because how can wheat see itself planted?

    The ones told how to handle the wheat and the tares are the “servants” and the “reapers”. We are told that the reapers are the angels. Where the false interpretation comes in is that people claim that the servants are wheat but how can that be possible? The servants are independently looking at God plant the wheat and they are seeing tares coming alongside and are told that the devil plants the tares. God is explaining to us and to these servants why we even have the scary phenomenon of deceivers in the midst of believers in the first place.

    There are other areas of scripture that reveal how the wheat should deal with the tares. The angels have been restrained from pulling up the tares until the end so there will always be tares, but God has clearly specified the things the wheat should do to protect themselves from the influence of the tares. 1 John 4 and 5 tells us to test the spirits so we can know what is of God and what is not. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns us about the false prophets who will raise up deceiving many. Again there will always be tares but the wheat are not left defenseless against them! We are warned! We need to grow up and heed those warnings!

    The warnings are everywhere in the Bible. In truth there have always been deceivers among the people trying to lead them astray. Nimrod and his tower of Babel was an early OT example of this phenomenon but there were many, many more in the Old Testament but for the purposes of the Church specifically, I will stick to the New Testament warnings even though some of the people who warn us in the NT go back to OT examples of specific men like Balaam. These people could be explained by Matthew 13 as those planted by the devil growing up alongside what was planted by God.

    In Acts 20 Paul warns the early Church about savage wolves that would come in to try to draw the disciples to themselves. Going back to Matthew 13 these savage wolves would be the tares that the angel reapers cannot uproot but which the wheat can beware of and stay away from and warn other wheat about. Paul was tearful as he warned the people so perhaps it was as hard for them to accept this truth as it is for us? All I know is that Paul considered his warnings to be part of the “whole counsel of God”.

    Jude warns the wheat about the tares that would come in the form of ungodly men who would creep in and try to turn the grace of God into lewdness. Again based on Matthew 13, the reaper angels leave these tares alone but based on what Jude says the wheat is warned and told to contend earnestly for the faith! Both things are working simultaneously. We have tares that the angels will allow to continue to grow but which the wheat can deal with as they are warned to! Wonderfully Jude lets us know that God can keep us (His wheat) from stumbling and present us faultless (despite the deceiving tares!). Such an amazing truth for the wheat to know!

    James warns us about tares in James 5 who show up as those who trust in their earthly riches…in the treasures they have heaped up. He tells us that these money-minded tares “have condemned and murdered the just”. But a word of encouragement is given as James strengthens the wheat with the truth that they should strengthen their hearts because the coming of the Lord is at hand.

    In 2 Timothy 3 Paul warns Timothy about the tares who “creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts”. He gives Timothy a list of traits these tares have and he tells him that he must turn away from such people. Timothy, as one of the wheat, is told to turn away! That warning is for us all. Again going back to Matthew 13 the reaper angels let these wicked tares grow alongside the wheat but that truth does not stop the apostle Paul from warning the wheat to stay away from them! In other words: The tares will grow but the wheat can run, avoid, warn and do anything else necessary to guard against the demonic influence of the tares.

    In 2 Peter 2, Peter gives us more of the characteristics of the tares, warning us what to look out for so that we, the wheat, can beware. He tells us in 2 Peter 2:17-19 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage……We have no excuse for remaining in bondage to these people because the Bible warns us!!!

    The reaper angels have had to sit still through millennia past and seen these tares planted by the devil and not stop it, but the wheat has always been given instructions as to what the tares look like and how we should respond to them and the fact that God is able to keep us safe if we entrust our lives to Him. The problem is that sometimes when people stand up to tares in the Bible they get stoned to death like Stephen or jailed like Paul and Peter or boiled and exiled like John etc. There may be an earthly price to pay for standing up for truth. There always has been. In the OT many of the prophets were killed for their stand for truth. It was the false religious leaders who usually presented the greatest problem! Why did this happen? Because while God has been planting sons of the kingdom the devil has been planting wicked men right alongside them and this process will continue until the end when the devil and the tares are cast into the lake of fire.

    Sometimes we need to remember these biblical truths because if we were not Christians this blog and others like it would not even exist. We would have all just gone along with the status quo and been assimilated completely into the darkness of CC and places like it subjecting our lives to the godless living that they support and accepting the realities of the effects of that godless living on us and others. An outward presentation of godliness is not godliness. No one can fool God. He has told us what tares look like because He knows what they look like and their final outcome. He doesn’t need to make excuses for that and it is all part of His loving grace. If it were not for His grace perhaps we would be tares too but because of Him we have been planted as wheat, sons of the kingdom, the redeemed who He called out of darkness into His marvelous light.

  40. Merry Christmas to All &
    Happy Birthday Jesus

  41. I am well aware that Dec. 25th is not His actual Birthdate, but this is as good of a day to celebrate as any. He IS the reason for MY season !

  42. Amen, OC, amen. I always need about 20 min. and a cup of coffee to read your post, but they are worth it. My question has always been, why has God not removed them? I have a little more clarity now. My problem was I was much to trusting. It is true though, that once it is revealed to you that there is a wolf in the midst, you cant help but warn the others if you truely have love in your heart. When you realize that you yourself were deceived by them it rips your heart out, it tears at your very soul. But you are right, it is time to grow up and take our lives back and ask God to restore us, strenghten us, and send us back out to do His work and help to advance His kingdom inlight of the darkness and tares that still surround us. Satan and his demons can wound us, but they cannot destroy us! :-)

  43. Great quotes as from this thread …

    YM: The people at Calvary who are truly saved don’t fit in and get confused by the rejection and unfriendliness/unfairness of the leaders and always feel like God must be mad at them because they aren’t being faithful by giving enough or doing enough.

    TJ: it is time to grow up and take our lives back and ask God to restore us, strenghten us, and send us back out to do His work and help to advance His kingdom inlight of the darkness and tares that still surround us. Satan and his demons can wound us, but they cannot destroy us!

  44. Amen Tina! I’m happy that I don’t take you through a whole pot of coffee! :-) Today I am so encouraged by all the restoration God has done and is doing! :-) He is good. That is something the enemy cannot change. Difficulty and trials on earth do not negate God’s goodness because our names are written in the Lamb’s Book of life and we are heaven-bound and an eternity with our God awaits us, but even until then, we get to have peace that exceeds our understanding and joy unspeakable and full of glory, here on earth, even in the midst of difficult circumstances. We just have to keep remembering that and keep our eyes on the One who gave us those good gifts! :-)

    I have a little more to say about the bold and clear warnings the Bible gives us about places like CC. Paul warns the Corinthians so well in 2 Corinthians 11 that I will end with the quote from that part of the Word and wish everyone a Blessed Christmas spent thinking about the One who deserves for us to think about Him every day…Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! In the quote below as I get to verses 13, 14 and 15 I think of CC and feel grateful once again that God pulled me out of that darkness!

    2 Corinthians 11:1-21
    1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

    5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things. 7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows!

    12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 16 I say again, let no one think me a fool. If otherwise, at least receive me as a fool, that I also may boast a little. 17 What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were, foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast. 19 For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise! 20 For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. 21 To our shame I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold—I speak foolishly—I am bold also.

  45. Amen, OC & Tina!

  46. Overly Concerned—what wonderful Spirit filled message to give us. On my way out the door, but checked this blog–noticed you had commented and just had to sit down and read through them. Will do so again, when I return.

    Tina J. How very true, there does come a time while in the process of being healed from being beaten down and thrown under, we pick up our cross and continue in that which the Lord has for us to do, stronger, wiser, and maturer, because of having gone through the testing of our faith and the purging of those things we once clung to that we once thought was of Him. Oh, how glorious and faithful He is in completing the work that He has begun in those who are in Him.

    Merry Christmas to all — I am so blessed to have been led to this site to hear what each have to share and to be able to share my own thoughts as well. May the Lord, our God reign even brighter as the days go by bringing us closer and closer to Him.

    Most of all, thank you Lord for providing the fellowship of others who seek your face in all that we say and do, for the love that you give and that which dwells in us through your Holy Spirit. Happy Birthday, Jesus!!!!!

  47. Merry Christmas Eve, CCA family!

    I feel like I know so many of you on a personal, intimate level. Thank you for sharing your stories, concerns, and experiences. You have no idea how encouraged I am by reading your stories of encouragement, wisdom and praise.

    Remember the Lord will come back “soon” and wash his bride white as snow. Till then, I hope you continue to fight the good fight and not lose your prize in heaven. I pray each and every one of you will continue to abide in Him, for the sake of the cross, and forsake the empty praises of man.

    God Bless and Merry Christmas!

  48. Yes – Merry Christmas!! Thank you all for sharing ——- God is love — peace

  49. Happy Birthday Jesus!

    Enjoy the Holidays get rested up and return for another round God’s willing.

  50. Genesis 50:17
    ‘This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your brothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.’ Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father.” When their message came to him, Joseph wept.
    Matthew 6:14
    For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
    2 Corinthians 2:5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

  51. #43…Amen Tina.

  52. Yes, amen Tina, OC, etc. Good stuff.

    Happy New Year, btw :-)

  53. Happy New Year to all

  54. Happy, Happy New Year, and may the Lord, God above all reign even more in each of our heart. To do His will, and not our own. May He fill us afresh anew with His Holy Spirit. To strengthen, to convict, and to teach us, while we walk according to His Word, in love and obedience in all things.

    May we all, pray for His return and until then, may we each contend for the faith, putting on the whole armor of Christ, Jesus.

  55. Alex, I listened to all of your interviews on Remnant X Radio. Your command of the facts is compelling and your arguments are convincing. I am non-religious, politically progressive, while most of my siblings involved with cc churches. I think your experience provides a remarkable illustration of the mind-bending, authoritarian tactics that get used by leaders in this movement. How dare Chuck Smith describe your effort to shed light on Bob’s history of abuse as having a “bee in your bonnet.” I note that Remnant X Radio espouses a theology not unlike CC churches and seems pretty anti-gay. Their “theory” that the whole CC movement was tainted because Lonnie Frisbee happened to be gay is more than a little weird. Of course, in my opinion, It was bullying of people like Lonnie Frisbee by leaders of the Christian Right that helped taint the movement. Statements about your step-brother Paul suggest you might buy into this “theory” that LGBT folks are by nature victims of abuse. Since you are devoted to following the facts, I strongly recommend that you and others in the evangelical movement apply extreme rigor to facts about differences in sexual orientation. “Homosexuality” is a concept unknown to people who wrote the Bible, and we are only beginning to understand the variables that influence ingrained differences in human sexuality. Another possibility, one I find more convincing, is that LGBT kids get targeted for sexual abuse by predators and get bullied by peers because they are different. I hope Paul is getting lots of positive support and acceptance from everyone in his life. Time to end the cycle abuse.

  56. RadicalRealist, good to see you again.

    Taking my polemic hat off so we can have an intelligent discussion.

    Thank you for weighing in with your observations of the situation and the argument.

    We agree on a lot. The issue I am not sure about is the homosexual issue and I approach it from the position that I have “theories” but I don’t know for sure.

    Here’s what I “think” is true: I think homosexuality is a sin, just like fornication, adultery, greed, pride, lying etc. and that is based on my appeal to Scripture and a very literal take of the term listed among those other terms as “sin”.

    However, thinking it is sin and morally wrong, does not mean I believe in that Homosexual Marriage is wrong, no more than I think our society marrying fornicators, adulterers, divorcees, etc should not be allowed.

    I think the Church makes a big deal out of homosexuality, while tolerated much more destructive sins, IMO, like Child Abuse, Spiritual Abuse, Corruption etc which shatters faith and ruins lives.

    In my brother Paul, it did seem he was gay from an early age and that it wasn’t a learned behavior, however, in light of the molestation allegations it has caused me to consider the Calvary Chapel fundamentalist Position that he might have been “turned” gay by molestation and/or external environmental circumstances that he wasn’t born with.

    However, my current Position is that some homosexuals are born with the innate desire toward the same sex. There just seems to be too much evidence to support this.

    Now, being born with the attraction to the same sex, IMO, doesn’t make the acting out on that “I was born with it” not sin. I state this because I was born with the inclination to want to be promiscuous and not monogamous…but I don’t believe that because I was born with that natural desire that it makes it “not” sin for me to be promiscuous.

    But, I’m open to push-back and evidence and can be convinced by facts, sound reason etc.

    Thanks again for having the courage to come on here, I know it will be a tough crowd for you as most “Christians” think Atheists/Agnostics have nothing to offer and are only of the devil…whereas in my experiences I have met and know many “good” Atheist/Agnostics who have better “fruit” of being good people than many of the awful Pastors I know. It’s a weird Paradox that is tough for me to resolve.

  57. RadicalRealist, here is one argument I am considering that I think (when putting myself in the shoes of the other Position) could be correct:

    It is possible that “homosexual” meant those practicing it in the bible times (not necessarily those born with the desire for the same sex), in the context that the belief/knowledge/view of that day was that all men and women were born heterosexual, marriages were “only” opposite sex, therefore any that practiced homosexuality were in essence fornicating or committing adultery.

    It is possible that the writers of the time, in that day’s context, though inspired, had a limited view…much like as illustrated with the issue of Slavery, much as illustrated by the fact that it was commanded to kill unruly children, much as illustrated by the fact that it was OK to have multiple wives and concubines at one time in the bible.

    “Truth” seems to be transitory and relative/subjective in many areas. Women don’t cover their heads today in church, even though the Apostle Paul commanded it specifically, etc etc.

    I have some friends who do believe that if Homosexuals are in a committed, monogamous “marital” type relationship, that they aren’t in sin. It’s a tough pill for a recovering fundamentalist to swallow, but there is “an’ argument for it that has some merit, IMO.

    I still hold to the Position I stated in the previous post that I believe/think that folks are born homosexual, but they are called to resist the physical act, much like promiscuity for heterosexuals…while recognizing that that doesn’t seem fair and seems cruel that God would create someone gay and then tell them they can’t experience sex/eros in the context of a committed relationship. However, the push-back to that argument would be that it wasn’t God’s intent, that due to the Fall of Man and man’s choice to “sin” in the Garden (whether literal or metaphorical)…homosexuality is a deviation from what God intended and not God’s fault, it is man’s fault for sinning.

    …however that is a shaky argument in the context that if God is truly Sovereign and if God is truly Omnipotent and All-Knowing and has Foreknowledge and knew what the devil and man would do before He created them and knew that He gave the devil and man the ability to rebel and to sin, then God is ultimately the Cause of all things and allowed homosexuality to be…therefore back to the “it seems cruel”…

  58. One of the most life changing experiences I had was working with a co-worker who was born with both male and female genitals. Realizing that folks are born that way (as well as the trauma, stigma, etc they endure) opened my eyes and heart to realizing that being born with other innate genetic programming was indeed more feasible than the traditional reasons and taboos I’d been taught in christendom based on the mores of ancient texts. In biblical times and later, a baby born with both male and female organs would have been destroyed as a spawn of satan. In more modern times, parents/physicians make arbitrary decisions and more often than not surgically alter the child. I was honored to have met and worked with someone who had reached a place of accepting themselves with compassion and courage. Their heart of giving and involvement in social justice for all people is awe inspiring.

  59. Sad to see the controversy as to “innate” tendencies, etc…essentially being borne with DNA which tends to drive certain defining behavior in an individual sinner.

    I know that I was born with DNA that had scipt trending me toward addictive behavior. Told so by a Dr. Barton Blinder in Newport Bch., who treated my mother for 15 years for a host of psychiatric issues and problems maiifested throughout her relatively short life.

    As a ex-herion fiend, I was told this was the cause for my addiction. Always felt conflicted by this, but at some deep level of self-anal;ysis knew this to be true. Nonetheless, many inherent behaviors are a choice. And my recovery was a choice from which I have not returned after 39 years. Also 3 1/2 years in a cult commune drug recovery program called Synanon.

    All that to say this…I don’t know why I bought into the fundamentalists notion that homosexuality is a learned behavior and not innate and in one’s DNA. But I did. The way I see wihtin the context of the bible is that orignal sin imputed makes this not only possible, but really certain. So if we are all born as sinners, then what is the point of “elevating” one sin over the other such that many Christians look down their nose at homosexuals? As a drug addict, I fail to see the distinction in clases and resulting perspectives.

    Now as to the issue of our victory in Christ over the sin nature by indwellng of the Holy Spirit, I will leave open for your comments as I clearly have mine.

  60. It’s interesting to read literature from the 1300′s and 1400′s. in the midst of discourse about the Church, it mentions homosexuality in no greater I ate situ than any other sin. It was simply accepted that some had that bent in their nature, yet were expected not to ac on it in the same way other natural bents were not to be acted upon.

    I have a friend who often says he was born with he natural tendency to be a mass murderer, though he cannot act upon it. I get what he means.

    My heart goes out to all of us as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and seemingly against the flow of our natural sin nature. But I also don’t think our sin natures is the sum total of each person. We all seem to have an ability for good and for evil, regardless of which side of THE BLOOD we are on.

  61. “This is the Way God Made Me”

    A Scientific Examination of Homosexuliaty
    and the “Gay Gene”

    Brad Harrub, Ph.D. and Bert Thompson, Ph.D and Dave Miller, Ph.D
    Apologetic Press, Inc. All Rights Reserved
    Reproduced by permission from Apologetics Press, Inc.

    You may also want to read up on “attachment theory” and then translate that into how we were created to be in relationship with God and through Him, by His Holy Spirit, we can then turn away from those false attachements, and form healthier, godlier attachments with others, including the self.

    I feeling a bit frustrated at this point having spent some time in sharing what scripture states about these things and also addressing that scripture can be interpreted the culture that a particular issues is being addressed, such a woman coving her head. But further reading reveals in 1 Cor 11:16 that Paul tells us that the Jewish people did not have such a custom, nor was it practice among other bodies of believers (church).

    In contrast if one was to read Romans 1 and Romans 2 addressing all sort of sexual practices outside of marriage between one man and one woman, it is speaking of the very soul becoming reprobate in many more ways as a result of turning these things into that which is an abomination of the Lord.

    And by way, all sins are not alike: 1 Corinthians 6:18-20. This is not dependent upon what culture you were raised in or during what time of history it may be or become. It is relevant for all time. So when we entertain such things that has no proof or substance, but only serves to provide a rationale to say, “that’s just the way I was born,” we deceive ourselves and call God a liar.

  62. As I was attempting to cover everything in one comment, I kept losing the comment to post becuase I was had also cut and paste the article site address.

    Anyway, just so everyone is aware —-there is NOT one shred of evidence that an addict of any type of substance is born addicted. It is a learned behavior. Why they tell you that it is not is due to: 1) what pill they have also swallowed, 2) being at wit’s end at how to totally cure it without blaming someone else or making you or someone else stigmatize you.

    Sheck, you stated you have been in recovery for a very long time—hat’s off to you, my friend. I know it was not an easy road for you as you waited for you brain to rewire itself, while practicing behaviors you were totally unfamiliar. But as you did, you thinking changed and as the years and months went by, so did your perspective towards coping with problems and caring about others change——am I correct?

    But you could not have done without really surrendering your will over His, then abiding and staying close to the Cross.

  63. Linda

    My comment was that people are born with addictive behavior tendencies, not unlike children with parents who are bi-polar are more likely to become bipolar than others. That is medical science fact. that is not to say that addiction can also be a learned behavior as well.

    Look. I used drugs, my choice. They did not use me. I did not use drugs to cope with life, etc. although my upbringing and demented 90210 existence surely would have made it a logical choice. I used every one of my drugs because I liked them..I liked the way they made me feel. don’t take the Bucky Fuller or wiring bit too far. Medical world embraces such analysis now, but it also embraced, then rejected, then re-embraced electroshock therapy, like they whacked my Mom with.

    Once “cured” of drugs, life still sucked. You see, Christ is the answer as one needs a new life and the power of the Holy Spirit to die to self and live the Spirit filled life the Father desires for me.

  64. Posting from a phone makes spelling hard!

  65. Sheck

    “My comment was that people are born with addictive behavior tendencies, not unlike children with parents who are bi-polar are more likely to become bipolar than others. That is medical science fact. that is not to say that addiction can also be a learned behavior as well.”

    Children who parents are bi-polar have a higher risk of being bi-polar simply due to being constantly exposed by the world that the parent create for them. Not by genetic factors as some would like the public to believe. Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that children are born bipolar, nor is it a medical “fact” that addictive behavior is genetically based. Are some people more sensitive to alcohol or other drugs that they are at a higher risk of becoming an addict. I haven’t seen any evidence of this.

    But I have seen plenty of evidence that, developing an addiction has more to do with faulty attachment issues and underdeveloped brain formation that renders the person incapable of dealing with a multitude of life issues without medicating it in some way, be it through sex, food, gambling, alcohol, drugs, or some other form of addictive agent that enables the person to cope with uncomfortable or negative feelings that renders them ready to crawl out of their skins or into the skin of another, if they don’t find a way to “fix” it.

    Sorry. As much or as easily it would be to go along to get along, I can not as a clinician say that I have seen, observed, or reviewed any data or evident that indicates that addictionis anything other than that which is learned, reinforced, conditional behavior.

    Once the mind is introduced to the substance it become dependent and everything else plays second fiddle to it. It become hijacked. If not used anymore and the beliefs regarding how to deal with life on life terms changed. Initially one has to stay out of the neighborhood, not to be triggered and have to go through the, “Do I or don’t I” phase of recovery, but after the brain and body is cleansed from these things, and replaced with something that is not going to feed right back into those old beliefs and values, it will heal.

    Like I said, every addict I ever treated reported using anything while being a young child except one. He was a heroin addict as well. Family was very close and caring. Loved to celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, and every other type of event that brought the huge family he had togther under one roof. Problem was, his earliest remembrance was being passed out behind a chair while there were beer cans, wine bottles, hard liquor, marijuana, and every other drug one can imagine laying on the floor and on the table, easy for him to reach. The big people were having a wonderful time—but too out of it to notice, he was following right in their footsteps—nodded out. He was 2.5 years old. He’s clean now too—over 20 years. Thank God, he told me the last time I saw him.

    For this child, he probably did find a way to stay loaded in order to feel normal during the day while at school.

    Believe me, I am well acquainted with the idea that addiction is inherited through the genes. But darn it all, saying it does not make it true–no matter how many times you say it.

    Sheck, I so appreciate you saying that, “Once “cured” of drugs, life still sucked. You see, Christ is the answer as one needs a new life and the power of the Holy Spirit to die to self and live the Spirit filled life the Father desires for me.”

    As a Christian clinician, having to practice within the boundaries of things yet proven, but generally accepted as truth, yet knowing how true your statement, quoted is, can be most frustrating at times, as I watch a person struggle through wanting to be healed so much, but not willing to do the very thing that would change his or her entire life. More time than none, they want to half step it and hang onto what they have alway believed that would keep them safe, in control, and free of commitments as possible. You know, just enough to keep people off their back and giving the appearance that they are doing okay. But they are not, and sooner or later they work their way back to using or if not using, they are taking it out on those they love or rather who love them—like the addict they really are. Not someone who is really in recovery and is permitting their hearts to be change. By the way this is what children learn and these beliefs and values are then passed on to them and the next generation.

    And yes, the addict does have mindset of one who is being narcissistic in their thinking and behavior. Being so, it does not never ever enable that person to leave home and grow up into the person God intended them to be. Instead, it keeps them in bondage to a very infantile way of coping and managing life choices and relating to others either through, money, power, sex, anger, and manipulation.

    I am so glad that you found out the truth, or rather should I say the Truth found you.

  66. Radicalrealist wrote ““Homosexuality” is a concept unknown to people who wrote the Bible, and we are only beginning to understand the variables that influence ingrained differences in human sexuality”.

    I find this statement less than compelling when I read this from the Bible:

    Romans 1:26-27: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

  67. Linda/Uriah
    Just because you have never heard of something doesn’t qualify you as an expert regarding the existence or facts regarding a matter.

    In the last 10 years there have been a tremendous amount of studies with verifiable results both in studying genes themselves and in MRI imaging that verify people can be genetically vulnerable to addictions, mental health challenges as much as one can be predisposed to cancer, diabetes, etc. The fields of genetics and neurobiology have been exploding with such discoveries. Enviroment and choice, most definitely, are a huge factor in whether one might get the full blown disease or eddiction. But that there are physiological as well as psychological ( or spiritual factors if you prefer), that will determine vulnerability.

    The University of Utah is making some marvelous discoveries.

    UC Irvine an excellent source of great stuff coming out of neuroscience research. Much of it concurrent with incredible strides in Alzheimers. It seems as we learn more about how the brain functions or dysfunctions in one area, we discover applications in other areas of concern.

  68. The effects of trauma and abuse have been shown to alter brain chemistry in neurobiology studies. I find it exciting and encouraging that by prayer/meditation, making healthy choices in lifestyle and attitude, the brain’s chemistry and wiring can be changed. I think Alex is a great example of this. A work in progress – as we all are – but still an example that we are not bound by either our genes or our experiences. We are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made!

  69. Once Upon a Time, yes, Science has proven there are physiological affects of abuse and trauma etc. PTSD is real. I’ve had to deal with the affects of the constant fear due to the trauma. It was debilitating at times, especially when I was young and still in the home: panic attacks at school, bed-wetting to an advanced age, etc etc. I found out as an adult that those were all symptomatic of the abuse and were physiological manifestations of the trauma and persistent/consistent fear and terror caused by Bob’s abusiveness. Geoff experienced similar, advanced age bed-wetting and other physiological manifestations of the abuse including problems at school with unruly violent behavior etc, all symptomatic of child abuse and stuff Educators now look for regularly. In our day and age, folks weren’t as tuned into the Warning Signs.

    If you see this stuff in kids today, beware and ask questions…

  70. This may sound controversial but I really don’t think there is such thing as an innocent baby. I kind of agree with St. Augustine that we all are born with original sin. So with this in the back of my mind and assuming with modern science that they happen to find a gene for addiction, or a gene or being gay or a gene for any other type of problem to me it doesn’t really take the responsibility off of ourselves. We are responsible for our sin. Since we are responsible for our sin, it is interesting but in many ways irrelevant whether we can trace this back to a particular gene. Sin only can only be rectified by Faith in Jesus Christ and not by gene manipulation as far as I am aware from reading my Bible . The question then arises is there a gene for “Faith in Christ”? The problem I see when you start going down this logical path is really a crass materialistic understanding of the world that puts people in a genetic box and more detrimental puts God in a box . The field of genetics and epigenetics is fascinating and I love science but I will put the Word of God over it any day!

  71. The other thing that is real is that hard-core drug use and even marijuana affect the brain as does PTSD from combat. Bob has done a ton of hard-core drugs (according to his own bio) and was in Vietnam…he had night terrors which I experienced first-hand and his “friend” from the Shiloh days reported as well. Bob’s got major issues. I’ve seen him go into rages that you would swear he was demon-possessed. There were times I thought he’d kill me before he finally calmed down (after beating me).

  72. Alex, Bob has a million “outs” he can take on why he was abusive that would garner him love and support. Why he insists on not dealing with what he did is beyond me … With one exception: in a rage the blood rushes away from the brain and makes it easy for the abuser to “forget” what he did.

  73. Andrew — very well stated!!

    As a clinician I have been treating those with various types of addiction and trauma for over 16 years. Part of what I do is what is called group work. The group size = on the average, 12. And I average 3 groups a week. One of the questions I posed to the group individually is, “Do you know the difference between right and wrong?

    My groups are quite opened in sharing their thoughts, beliefs, feelings and not afraid to express them, within the group rule of being considerate and respectful towards me and the other group members.

    Answer: Not one person in all the time I have been running groups ever denied knowing the difference between right and wrong. At the same time, please know these group members had many arrest and convictions, bragged about it, and at times, as they moved towards their recovery from their addiction, cried over the harm they had done to others and to the self.

    Another question I would posed: So, if you know the difference between right and wrong, why do you choose to do wrong, knowing it is hurting someone, including yourself.

    Answers: “Because I can.”
    “Because no one stopped me.”
    “Because I didn’t think I would get caught.”
    Number One Answer: Because I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted it, and how I wanted it.”

    Question: How did you come to know the difference between right and wrong?

    Every member I have ever had the privilege to treat has told me and their respective group member: “I’ve always known the difference between right and wrong.”

    This last answer, I alway found to be quite profound in light of God’s word.

    We do know this, whether we understand it or not, God is not the author of sin. Man was created in God’s image, able to exercise his will yet, man was created Holy, separate from sin. Sin ended when man disobeyed and God allowed it to happen. God will not violate man’s will. To do so would turn man into a robot. The sun is not the source of darkness, but darkness exists where the sun does not shine. God is not the source of sin, but when man disobeyed God’s good law, God withdrew and darkness came upon man.

  74. Once Upon a Time

    “In the last 10 years there have been a tremendous amount of studies with verifiable results both in studying genes themselves and in MRI imaging that verify people can be genetically vulnerable to addictions, mental health challenges as much as one can be predisposed to cancer, diabetes, etc. The fields of genetics and neurobiology have been exploding with such discoveries. Enviroment and choice, most definitely, are a huge factor in whether one might get the full blown disease or eddiction. But that there are physiological as well as psychological ( or spiritual factors if you prefer), that will determine vulnerability.

    The MRI imaging results does not prove genetic origen. It only provide a picture of what the brain looks like at the time it was taken. When a particular abnomality occurred as a result of addiction, you are seeing the result of using the addictive agent (s), not the result of being “born that way.” Once again, there is no solid proof that addiction is inherited genetically, but there is plenty of proof that enviroment has everything to do with the choices we make.

    PTSD, trauma, addictive agents, not only floods the brain with chemicals that causes the brain to change, but also blocks off the brain from using parts of it in order to either protect itself from having to reexperience negative emtions, as well as, enables the brain that is now hijacked to blunt itself from feeling any empathy towards others in the process of keeping itself safe from perceived harm and threats. By the way when using alcohol and drugs or other type of behaviors in an addictive, compulisive manner, such as rage, sex, work, eating, these things literally changes the locus of control over to the center of pleasure, thereby everything a person thinks and do is filtered and priotize to keep this area of the brain satiated. In turn, the frontal lobes that controls emotions on the right side and abstract thinking and reasoning on the left side are kept in subjection to the what is more hedonistic or pleasurable or in a delusional sense, a false sense of control and power. Basically, it blocks off the front part of the brain from enabling the person to see things as they are and therefore,, reality is distorted. At the same time, most of the motions are blocked off as well. Instead, only the secondary emotions are experienced: anger, sadness, fear and a type or happiness. So the person feels as though they live in extremes. What more, a person is unable to be empathic towards others by understanding how their behavior and choices are truely affecting others.

    Alex, unfortunately many people do not understand the depth of what was and at time still be experienced as a result of being exposed to that which was exacted upon you directly and by witnessing such abuse upon others. This in itself can be a huge stumbling block for those who are attempting to recover and to heal. But the more you talk about it and other share as well, the more others will gain an understanding and know that it is only due to it being minimized and swept un the rug, and treated as something that you ought to be ashamed of for not getting over it, that lends to the long journey it takes to be completely healed.

    So once again, for going to that place to let us get a graphic picture of the hell you have been exposed to and then having to climb out of as a boy, a young man, and now the man they you are and strive to be. God bless you, Alex.

  75. Once Upon A Time

    Regarding the research you cited, I would strongly that you also research data that tell us that these reports also have not proven a genetic origen to addiction or homosexuality.

    The findings reported are simply theories and conjectures. That is not proof.

    So when I stated that I have not seen any proof it is because I have read and kept up with these area of clinical concerns as well as my own personal interest in these areas.

    When I shared these things, I do not mean to offend anyone, but to get the truth out about what is not being reported but instead are leading people to believe something that has yet to be proven.

  76. RadicalRealist @ # 55,
    In my journey out of fundamentalism, I too have realized a far more tolerant view of LGBT folks than when I drank the CC koolaid back in the day. Nowadays I couldn’t care less what a person’s sexual orientation is, I am far more interested in the content of their character.

  77. Once Upon A Time

    Please consider the following.

    The site you provided has some things to say about there theories the propensity to be an addict is genetically based, as well as, environmental. Problem is there was any data provided to prove these statements. Only conjectures of what they hope to find or to prove. That does not make it a fact.

    Also, I noticed the genograms that they used to try to connect genes with them. It always amazes me when they are able to connect family history with genes. Because, if it was truly genetic they would be presenting a gene study of the family members instead of doing a genogram which is an oral history of a family members ancestors that would also include any type of addictive behavior.

    Anyone who has done genogram for the purpose of looking at patterns, beliefs, values, traditions, and problems, knows that these items are handed down consciously and unconsciously. Being so, even if an alcoholic grandfather had a daughter who did not drink, but ended up having a son that also became an alcoholic, it is not due to genes, but rather to the learned way that was handed down to him as a result of being raised by a mother who’s father raised her in the realty (mindset) that he lived in under the influence of alcohol. Otherwise, dysfunction begets dysfunction and is passed down as a process of learned behavior and the abuse that is attached to it.

    But in no way does this indicate that it is due to a gene. Here’s an article that really goes into detail, but not so much we cannot understand what is needs to be understood about genetic research and what it has or has not ascertain. That is, to establish proof of such things:

    In the article I cited, it helps the reader understand that although much research has been done, unless a specific gene has been identifiied, then there is no conclusive evidence that such a gene exist.

    We have to be careful on what we are being told by science and other professions that used statistics and other type of data. For oftentimes, it has more to do with hidden agendas that might promote a belief that is basically founded upon air.

    And as Andrew called to our attention, when it comes down to it:

    “The question then arises is there a gene for “Faith in Christ”? The problem I see when you start going down this logical path is really a crass materialistic understanding of the world that puts people in a genetic box and more detrimental puts God in a box . The field of genetics and epigenetics is fascinating and I love science but I will put the Word of God over it any day!”

    On the site, you provided, if I recall correctly, it had a side bar blip making a statement that they will never find a single gene to prove this. Hmmm, because there is not a gene that exist. But then, it goes on and covers itself by then stating, that a group of genes “could ” indicate such risk of develping an addiction.

    Permit me to introduce another thought: As long as we feed our sin nature and refuse to surrender to God, and walk in His way, we are all prone to set up a lifestyle that becomes dependent upon behaviors, people, and things that are addictive in nature. And for those who are raised in or cater to enable these types of coping mechanisms and attachments, it will be a greater challenge for them to stand aside and not get caught up in the things that the world and the devil would like you to believe is the answer to feeling significant and healing that which may have harmed you.

  78. So sorry, let me try that first paragraph again.

    “The site you provided has some things to say about the propensity to be an addict is genetically based, as well as, environmental. Problem is, there was NOT any data provided to prove these statements. Just statements made, but nothing to indicate what, how, when or what the results were of any studies or the weakness of such studies, or what it and hoped to find, but did not. Just that there was studies being done, then making statements as if they have been done and then presenting statements as if they were facts. That is not proof. Only conjectures of what they hope to find or to prove. That does not make it a fact.

    Much better, had proofread and spell checked, but somehow skipped over what should have been deleted :-)

  79. Had a comment, but hasn’t cleared moderator yet.

    So, here’s the first part of it which include the article on genes. A good read to help everyone to dicipher between what is and what is not factual.

    “This is the Way God Made Me”

    A Scientific Examination of Homosexuliaty
    and the “Gay Gene”

    Brad Harrub, Ph.D. and Bert Thompson, Ph.D and Dave Miller, Ph.D
    Apologetic Press, Inc. All Rights Reserved
    Reproduced by permission from Apologetics Press, Inc.

    You may also want to read up on “attachment theory” and then translate that into how we were created to be in relationship with God and through Him, by His Holy Spirit, we can then turn away from those false attachements, and form healthier, godlier attachments with others, including the self.

  80. Alex, thanks for your response. I recognize challenges many face who hold to inerrancy or other similarly “strong” views of scriptural authority. I very much respect the folks like you who continue to look at facts and new information. I have faith that this process will result in greater measure of justice for all concerned.

  81. RE: Radical Realist on January 5, 2013 at 6:09 am,

    I concur. I hold to Jesus’ virgin birth, his bodily resurrection from the dead, and his promised bodily return to Earth at some point in future. I can no longer in good conscience hold to a view of God that insists upon inerrancy of Scripture or a particular view of Scripture based upon black-and-white absolutism.

  82. The term homosexual was coined in the 1800s by physicians/psychiatrists who wrote case studies that posited “sexual inversion” as a biologically-based medical condition. Prior to the 1800s this concept did not exist. Same-sex sexual behavior was described as sodomy in the legal code. It’s clear from Romans that Paul had in mind people whose typical inclination was toward the opposite sex, but who engaged in sexual acts that went against their own nature. I think we can agree the concept of homosexuality as it was coined in the 1800s is foreign to Paul’s way of thinking and alien to the purity code in Leviticus. Prior to the 1800s sodomy, like witchcraft, was built into the legal code and used to punish offenders who the authorities treated as blasphemers. Often, this was invoked when panics arouse among anxiety-ridden communities or groups. Offenders functioned as a scape-goats whose disposition by the authorities would rid society of supposed threats. These “sacrifices” (punishment, execution) symbolized the restoration of the social order and a victory over fears objectified by offenders (…i.e. sodomy and witch panics functioned as cycles of profound abuse).

    Scientific evidence shows that approximately 2% of human beings experience predominate same-sex attraction. There is a higher rate of concordance for same-sex attraction between fraternal twins than non-twins and a higher rate of concordance among identical twins than fraternal twins. All human attraction involves our dopamine-based reward system (which at times tends toward what we call “addiction”) and our oxytocin-based care-giving/affectional brain systems. What distinguishes “homosexuality” is not the mere sex act between members of the same gender, but care-giving, affectionate relationships that are on-going and romantic. There is no evidence to suggest that attraction among LGBT folks is driven exclusively or predominately by dopaminergic reward systems. There is lots of evidence that our relationships involve a lot of romance and care-giving. In other words, if it was all dopamine, then conversion therapy would work. Even Liberty University studies are telling us, conversion therapy does not work. So, by arguing that we are addicts, in instances where LGBTs are not acting like addicts, one sees another unfounded fiction used to prop up the age old cycle of fear. There is certainly nothing in the Bible, or in neuroscience, to back up such claims (homosexuality = addiction).

    I think Christians should be more charitable toward writers of the ancient world. 98% of them were probably heterosexual. And their ideas of purity hinged on what made sense from a 98% perspective in a pre-scientifc world. If their language and concepts were not quite up to the task of covering all variations of sexual behavior under all circumstances, I don’t think we should unduly fault them for it. What we do see in the Bible are writers who assumed (or rather, everything in their language and culture assumed) that everyone was like everyone else. I just don’t think the texts are referring to LGBT folk. Certainly, we all can agree that addiction, abusing oneself or others, is not authentic or genuine for anyone. As such, if one wants to follow the purity code or Paul, I think there is an important distinction to make: What is each person’s starting point? What is going to be authentic and genuine for a given person? Failing to face this question, I think, is failing, failing as a person of faith. Alex, I give you a lot of credit for facing this question! (Good luck to all of us, in doing our best to answer it).

  83. Perhaps “Gaslighting” is one of the most hidden forms of controlling abuse used by rouge pastors in order to completely dominate the unsuspecting and trusting sheep including child abuse…

    If you don’t know what this is, you should!

    Gaslighting is a form of psychological (or physical) abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity. Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.!

  84. It is said that gaslighting in the most severe form of psychological abuse there is. Narcissist/sociopaths/psychopaths are infamous in using these tactics. It’s ingrained in them as their conscience is said to be seared. And everyone is a target to one degree or another, but it is the spouse and children that gets the worse of it.

    Think: Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde Voila’, Gaslighting 24 hours a day. They control who talks to whom and by silencing there victims by alienating, isolating, and discrediting them. Then act like they have been victimized instead—another form of gaslighting.

  85. RadicalRealists wrote, “What distinguishes “homosexuality” is not the mere sex act between members of the same gender, but care-giving, affectionate relationships that are on-going and romantic”

    What distinguishes “homosexuality”? You have to be kidding. Are you telling us that this is unique to “homosexuality” and “heterosexual” relationships are not caring, giving and affectionate and ongoing?

    I think before you go on with your theories and your so called scientific evidence, you need to define this term “romantic” for us. Ongoing, caring and affectionate relationships do not imply homosexuality at all. This is exactly the kind of relationships we are to have with our brothers and sisters in the Lord and if you are married with your spouse and if you are a parent with your children.

    Homosexuality, whether it is accompanied by a committed, caring and ongoing relationship or not is prohibited in the Bible.

  86. From conversations/discussions/hashings out with many who hold a similar Position to RadicalRealist…here’s what they are asserting (essentially):

    Their Position seems to be that some folks are born wired for attraction to the same sex. My own personal experience supports this having watched by brother grow up (though it is possible it is molestation at a young age that “caused” him to become homosexual…though Calvary Chapel accepts Bob’s version, so how did Paul become gay? I guess he was born with it if you believe Bob and CC…

    Basically, what RadicalRealist and others assert is that ancients of the day the bible was written didn’t understand that some folks, probably around 2% ‘ish were born gay. Adding to the percentage, like say during Sodom, etc was the fact that “some” are born heterosexual, but through lust and experimentation become bi-sexual, basically they’ll hump anything that moves, male, female, heck even animal (beastiality).

    The Position assumes that the verses about homosexuality are FOR those who are born Heterosexual but then through sexual addiction/pushing the envelope for a new high, go homosexual as well. It is “unnatural” therefore for a person born Heterosexual to go Homosexual.

    …HOWEVER, it is NOT unnatural for a person born Homosexual to be Homosexual and they are just as righteous in having a monogamous committed loving relationship as a Heterosexual is…and that the Homosexual only sins similarly to Heteros when he/she lusts, fornicates or commits adultery…but they are not in sin if they have a monogamous committed marriage like relationship.

    That seems to be the Position. It is worth considering, IMO, especially if Science proves that some folks are “born” Homosexual, then it would be difficult to call “unnatural” for “them” if that’s how God wired them.

  87. Hermaphrodites are a great example of this…

    They are born with both sex organs. They are born with a particular attraction. They are not a-sexual.

    It is “possible” that we don’t understand the correct interpretation of the verses in the proper context.

    Heck, Calvary Chapel says Women and Homosexuals are ‘Dis-qualified’ to be Pastors per the bible, yet Calvary Chapel ignores the rest of the Qualifications and says they just can’t judge the other stuff…yet they can make such a judgment against women and homosexuals? Pretty convenient picking and choosing which begs the nature of the FLAWED fundamentalism that is rampant in church today.

    It’s a Pick-and-Choose Fundamentalism…which invalidates the whole Premise IMO. It gives credence to a more Liberal approach and validates that argument.

    Law of Love. That seems to trump all…and Calvary Chapel appeals to it when they want grace and antinomianism for the sins they tolerate and support in their leadership….so be consistent…show the same grace and antinomianism to women and homosexuals. They are just as Qualified as a Bob Grenier and a Raul Ries etc etc.

  88. “The Position assumes that the verses about homosexuality are FOR those who are born Heterosexual but then through sexual addiction/pushing the envelope for a new high, go homosexual as well”

    This doesn’t make sense at all. On one hand, RadicalRealist is saying that the apostle Paul didn’t really understand the science of homosexuality that was established sometime in the 1800 by some pyschologists/pychiatrists, etc..

    But now they are assuming that the apostle Paul did understand sexual addiction? However, I believe the scientific understanding of sexual addiction as well as addiction in general has only recently evolved in the last 50 years. This just doesn’t add up at all.

  89. Didn’t mean to say that Paul the Apostle understood sexual addiction in the context of today, but he certainly had the ability to see the debauchery (sexually) around him…as evidenced by the sex temples etc etc and the rather promiscuous society of the Roman Age.

  90. Personally, I dunno.

    I know what I saw with my bro Paul growing up. I believe Paul’s testimony of being molested.

    I know that Paul was either born gay or influenced to become gay, not 100% for sure which it was…I do know he’s gay.

  91. What also gives me pause to consider the Position of RadicalRealist and others is also the fact that at one time in the bible it was commanded to kill/execute unruly children and women caught in adultery etc.

    That means at one point in time, God commanded the killing/execution of children for a marginal offense. That “truth” changed over time. No way around it (I’ve tried every angle, can’t get around that fact, it’s in Scripture and if God’s word is truly as inerrant, infallible, perfect etc etc it’s there in black and white). Jesus then comes on the scene and rewrites the Rules if you will.

    Now it seems to be “Law of Love”…which even the Fundamentalists tout when they don’t measure up to the Strict Law….except when it comes to homosexuals and women and stuff they don’t like and view as “worse” sin etc.

    That’s how it appears to me in practice and example. I see all kinds of Law of Love and Antinomianism when it comes to “boys being boys” and abuse and corruption, porn in the pulpit, adultery etc. Law of Love and “Grace me brol!” and Chuck Smith and others sing that song all the time.

    yet, be a Homosexual and apply for a CC Affiliation and Dove…see how far you get. It’s clearly a bias as an appeal to the Qualifications in the bible are null and void in example after example of CC’s toleration of other Disqualifications.

    Some homosexual pastor needs to try and get his CC Dove and then sue when they deny him.

  92. So many interesting and thought provoking discussions here. I’m happy to see that those who write and participate here have found it safe enough to openly question taboo topics.

    A friend of mine has recently said that his theology is getting more complex and mysterious, while his faith is simplifying. I am experiencing the same. Our ability to fully understand God and his ways will by nature always be limited. It is important, while wrangling for understanding and meaning, to keep a fairly fluid mind about controversial theological topics. There certainly are cardinal articles of faith we should contend for, even though they too are very weighty. But someone with a deeply trusting heart, who faithfully acts out the daily things God places on their heart to do, will enjoy a rich life with God apart from knowing how to systematize their theological beliefs.

    CC has always verbally revered the Bible. Their theology has had many holes. Yet many of their ‘disciples’ have cut their teeth on reading the Bible exclusively. Let’s pray for a deepening of faith, and a growing, worshipful intellectual understanding of God in their midst, which will give greater confidence to hold their leaders to the same accountability structures the least of the brethren are expected to follow.

  93. Wide said, “I’m happy to see that those who write and participate here have found it safe enough to openly question taboo topics.”

    It’s not that I necessarily find it safe, I expect many to disagree with me and some vehemently, it’s just that I don’t care any more what folks think, I’m more concerned about finding out what the Truth is as I think “work out your own Salvation in fear and trembling” has some merit and that Judgment (if literal and true in standing before God and Jesus) will be very personal and individual.

  94. Alex stated: “That seems to be the Position. It is worth considering, IMO, especially if Science proves that some folks are “born” Homosexual, then it would be difficult to call “unnatural” for “them” if that’s how God wired them.”

    Science has not proven any such thing. There has not been a gene that has been identified as of this date. Only statements made to this affect on studies that are not able to be replicated or that findings are inconclusive. That is not proof—only wishful and political thinking.

    Alex, my brother was gay as well and he would have told you the same thing up to a certain point in his life when he finally admitted that he was raped as a young boy but didn’t want anyone to know about it. Although, I caught him one in the closet with a girl his age (5-6 years old) playing doctor, he had forgotten about this. The trauma of the rape over rode everything else and it is want made the initial imprint upon his mind and how he identitied who he was in terms of his sexuality. Our society in general I think because we are a very addictive society have also learn to use sex as a means to characterize what does and what does not constitute being a man and being a woman. So when, say a male, is more feminine in the temperament they are born with is then identified as being “gay” it sends a message to him that, hey, I feel this way or that way, therefore, I don’t identify with the more masculine traits that would prove that I am a “man,” he will either overcompensate in doing guy type of things or withdraw into looking for others who are more like him. Depending upon the relationship he does or does not have with his parent (s), and if he is molested by either the mother or the father, or an uncle or some other family member, and/or with the attitude about gender and sex, will have everything to do with what choices he will make consciously and unconsciously. The earlier that a girl or boy is molesed the more apt they are to integrate this in their belief about their own gender and how to negotiate the terms to get their basic nurturing and attachments needs met without feeling split off within themselves.

  95. Andrew state: “But now they are assuming that the apostle Paul did understand sexual addiction? However, I believe the scientific understanding of sexual addiction as well as addiction in general has only recently evolved in the last 50 years. This just doesn’t add up at all.”

    LOL—-and the Bible does not stand true and can be interpreted in whatever way one would like it to fit within the choice they would like to justify to satisfy themselves.

    Andrew, you are absolutely correct in what you are attempting to get across, except for one small item—although Patrick Carnes was the basic founder regarding sexual addiction, it is Doug Weiss in the last 10 years that has brought sexual addiction within the scope of helping us to understand how the Bible does point out how destructive this is towards society, the community, and the family and the individual. Prior to this, sexual deviancy was seen as a huge stigma upon the individual. After Patrick Carnes and others working in the field of sexual deviancy enter the public arena, a lot of research began and there was and remain a huge push n pull over what is and what is not sexual deviency and voila, those wanting to normalize homosexuality also got on board. Of course, leaving God out or challenging His Word by watering it down or doing away with it completely and trading it off for man’s understanding of it instead.

    The bottom line is God’s Word says NO! And my question is what part of No do you not understand and what is it about God’s Word that it is a person wants to change into an image of their own making. I think that is the better question to ask. Because, even though God used men and possibly one woman to write the Bible, Scripture tells us that it was God who inspired it and not one jot or tittle will be wiped away to satisfy any person’s desire to do that which He has already stated that will be judged on the Great Day of the Lord.

    I think we made a huge mistake when we see and experience things in terms of how good it feels or how normal it appears to be or how right it might seem to us. For in this, we do tend to lean upon our own understanding and give a foothold for those who do not know the Lord to aruge us into thinking exactly what Satan said to Eve in the Garden and what He tried to seduce Jesus into believing while in the desert. Take heed everyone, this is not of the Lord, and you are walking on dangerous grounds when you entertain such things. What more, in the process you lead other astray as well. Speaking this truth does not say that I am not be loving, kind, compassionate, or understanding. Quite the contrary, it is because I am just this that I speak boldly counting the cost and hope you do as well. God’s Word be true and any other is a liar.

  96. It took awhile for science to satisfactorily prove the earth revolved around the sun enough to convince religious experts.

    I do not doubt that if a genetic connection were proven, that proof would be discredited. After all, “true believers” will insist fossils and dinosaur bones were planted by the devil. It is often easier to believe in fantastical spiritual conspiracy than wrestle with the cognitive and emotional incongruity that results when long held beliefs are challenged. Especially when orthodoxy of belief is tied to such weighty matters as eternal destiny, the threat of eternal hellfire if one is mistaken or deceived.

    Fear is the primary stumbling block to being able to integrate new knowledge with religious tradition and ancient holy books’ explanations of how things work and why. Perfect love casts out fear. That was the truly most radical concept Jesus brought into the world – love trumps all the traditions and wisdom of man. His constant flaunting of loving the unlovely against the religious traditions of the time paved the road to the cross.

  97. Alex, in your post #92 you mentioned that you are interested in finding out what the “Truth” is. This is definitely a high calling and a worthy thing to do. However, I am a little confused though from your post #90 where you mentioned that “truth” changed over time. Jesus said he is the way, truth and life. My understanding is that truth does not change. My concern is when my homosexual friend tells me that Matt 5:28 does not apply to them at all because Jesus was referring to only heterosexual men lusting after married women. The gay guy than said that he is free to lust all he wants after gay men because this verse doesn’t apply to him at all. Then he says that single heterosexual men also are free to lust all they want after single women because that has nothing to do with breaking a marriage vow which is adultery. Do you see how crazy this interpretation becomes?

  98. Wide Awake stated: ” It is important, while wrangling for understanding and meaning, to keep a fairly fluid mind about controversial theological topics”

    The above quote that you stated does not stand on its own. In this, I think what you shared has much merit.

    By itself, it brought to my mind this: I doubt seriously if God is confused over any topic and in His Word given to us, there is no controversy, only what humans would like to hold onto instead of giving it up to fulfill their own selfish, self-seeking, and wantom desires. As a community member in the household of fellow believers it is for us to remind one another that God’s Word stands true, no matter what controversy is invented outside of tht which has already been established. It is the conflict that lies within the heart that is in conflict with itself and against God. Satan knows this and he has won many to cause others to struggle even more with the Truth, the Life, and the Way. Instead of holding man’s understanding in the Light of God’s Holy and Inspired Word, we would rather hold God’s Word in the light of man’s understanding. That is and alway will be the first step into falling away and falling into that which is not of the Lord—this you can take to the bank and draw interest on it. Mark my words——warning and caution to everyone.

  99. How the bible is understood and applied has ALWAYS been in light of man’s understanding. Man’s understanding of truth is fluid and changing whether in matters of science or faith. Church history and modern day diversity and disunity within the church makes that very evident.

    God can equal Truth with the capital “T” while we all continue to see through a glass darkly. Despite all our striving to fit the Eternal in comfortable, understandable boxes, in the final analysis none of our boxes will ever be able to contain Absolute Truth. In light of that love is our best yardstick.

    Rather than defining and defending our boxes, which the pharisees were pros at,

    Some accuse Alex of being unloving by shedding light on BG and others. Warning others of danger is a very loving thing to do – especially when it comes at great personal cost. Forgiving BG a great goal – and can be done while simultaneously not forgetting the harm and the system which breeds it.

    Thank you for engaging me in these discussions, U. It has been very therapeutic; very much like writing letters I sometimes imagine I’d like to send to the person I used to be. Ten years ago I could have easily written most of your posts with the utmost sincerity and concern.

  100. Andrew @ 96

    So glad you presented this—-I really did not have the mind or energy to do this again. It is an argument that is part and parcel of having to present when speaking of homosexuality, lusting, and sexual immorality. Always seeking, but never satisfied. Looking for the loopholes, yet never coming to the truth. God’s Word said it, I believe it, that settles it.

    So ditto, in full agreement.

    Alex, @ 95 ” love trumps all the traditions and wisdom of man. His constant flaunting of loving the unlovely against the religious traditions of the time paved the road to the cross.”

    Yes, love does do this, but in no way are we to compromise what God’s Word states in lieu of being perceived as being unloving when we make God’s Word clear on sexual immorality. Sexual immorality is not a traditional or culture issue nor are the sanctions placed on such a relationship mandated for a specific time. The human heart has always looked to its oven devices to justify it longings to be in snyc with that which would satisfy the lusts of its own makings. As Solomon pointed out, there is nothing new under the sun. Only the furniture has been rearranged. Yet, human still seek to get genuine needs met in pseudo forms of attachement that God has clearly told us is not to be obtained.

    People will use “love” to justify alot of things, Alex. But in fact it is not love at all. Instead it is a cheap way of saying to oneself or another who wishes to practice such things that to judge these things is being unloving. No, it is not. It is being most loving to the Lord when we abide in His word, as it stands—for all times, no matter what culture or tradition may come and may go. Sexual immorality that includes homosexuality is not of the Lord. What remains is do you believe God’s Word or are you going to continue to waffle between it and what man would have you to believe otherwise?

    Concerning homosexuality, anotomically speaking the very act of sexuality is not condusive to how they come together in sexual intercourse. That is anal sex. It may be very erotic as there are many nerve endings in the anus. But by no means it it physiologically compatible with the tearing and pain that is caused, let alone the filth that come out of this particular orifice of the human body. Pain can be very erotic particularly when one equates love with it. It’s not love in the true sense of what love is and unfortunately many do equate in this sense, In this same emotional and sexualized states, are you aware also that this is also found in those who abuse their spouse and children. A narcissist perceives love as being that which originates with fear, whereas, a normal person knows that fear has nothing to do with love. But the narcissist has learn that if they can control another person into mirroring back to them the image they see themselves, then they are loved by this person. In reality, the person doing the mirroring is only doing so in fear that they will be rejected by the narcissist. For children being abused by a narcissist, it gets really confusing because it order to be loved, they learn that they have to go along to get along, thus selling out the very self that they will one day find themselves in a fix in trying to re-enact the very pain—the loss of the self , through the exploitation of another. Thinking, that in doing so, they have come into their own. But it is own lust in different forms that is used—particularly when it becomes what is referred to different forms of sexual addictions and other types of practices that destroys the soul yet feeds the ego.

    Didn’t mean to make this as long as I did, but then again it was layed on my heart to do, so that it would provoke some thought and consideration. Love stands on its own, apart from that which would cause another to sin or to reinvent God’s Word.

  101. Once upon a Time,
    If we put God in a box then I can agree with what you wrote, but when God himself puts boundaries around something, I think it’s wise to listen. It’s like when a parent says to their child to not play in the street. You can accuse the parent of keeping the child in a box, yet the parent is being very wise, protective and loving to discipline the child to not play in the street. Otherwise they may get hit by a car.

    With this said, I think the boxes you are referring to are really boundaries that need to understood and not ignored. These aren’t my boxes but rather God’s rules. The boundaries are set to protect us. Of course there will always be some that ignore God’s boundaries. In my opinion this is a very dangerous way to live both individually and collectively as a body.

  102. Once Upon A Time @ 98 stated:

    “Thank you for engaging me in these discussions, U. It has been very therapeutic; very much like writing letters I sometimes imagine I’d like to send to the person I used to be. Ten years ago I could have easily written most of your posts with the utmost sincerity and concern.”

    Not sure of what you are saying in the quote above. But would like to say that those who are not filled with the Holy Spirit are not able to understand God’s Word, much less to abide in Him and walk in obedience as well. So either we are going to being able to intepret these things that He has given us by His Word or we are going to lean upon our own understanding.

    To say that “.How the bible is understood and applied has ALWAYS been in light of man’s understanding.” is curious to me when thinking of the authors that were used by God to write what we now call the Bible or that Jesus refers to as the Scriptures. Also when Paul tells us:

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

  103. Uriahisaliveandwell wrote:

    “…Science has not proven any such thing. There has not been a gene that has been identified as of this date. Only statements made to this affect on studies that are not able to be replicated or that findings are inconclusive. That is not proof—only wishful and political thinking…”

    Augustine’s doctrine of original sin passed on from Adam to all has no basis in rigorous science either.

  104. Once Upon a Time @98

    Your reference to a verse in 1st Corinthians (“we all continue to see through a glass darkly”) about supernatural gifts vanishing cannot possibly mean that sound doctrine cannot be learned and taught and those who contradict refuted.

    Therefore “love is are best yardstick”…sounds post modern…ish

    Titus 1:9 says

    “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.”

    So truth can be learned, taught and those who oppose refuted.

  105. Q – well said.

  106. Once Upon a Time said, “Some accuse Alex of being unloving by shedding light on BG and others. Warning others of danger is a very loving thing to do – especially when it comes at great personal cost. Forgiving BG a great goal – and can be done while simultaneously not forgetting the harm and the system which breeds it.”

    To date, BG has done nothing to peacefully and biblically address these issues. He has deflected, he has stonewalled, he has mis-characterized the problem. Until he does attempt to do things the right way, he will be openly criticized for his seemingly duplicious life. There are scores of real people who have been severely hurt by CCV, and many are awaiting a truthful and verifiable answer to these accusations.

    Those who claim to have been hurt by BG, can forgive him if they want to. It would be difficult to but certainly within the power of the Holy Spirit to give grace to the victims to do this. Forgiveness will come much easier if B Grenier confesses to his sin, which is widespread, and asks his former church members and friends for mercy.

  107. Muff Potter @ 102

    Touche! We can certainly find evidence in the fall however, huh. In light of Scripture we can see evidence of God’s Word through His creation. Just think, for a long, long time man thought the world was round. Yet, if they had read the Word, they would have found out that it was round.

  108. I could use some help. I’m trying to compile as many CC Visalia stories to use in an upcoming blog post. If you know of specific personal abuse stories pertaining specifically to CC Visalia, can you please send to me: BGBCSurvivors @ Gmail . com

    If you have a personal story that is not posted publicly, but would like to do so, you can also send it to me. Please indicate if I may use your name or choose an Anonymous name.

    In light of the lawsuit, I think it’s important that the voices of CCV are heard. The media will not do this, but I can on my blog. I find that people read news stories and then if they are interested, search to find more details.

    Your stories are important. Abuse survivors will sometimes make the very first realization that what they experienced was abuse by reading someone else’s personal story. Do not ever discount the “value” of your story. Your story might be the one that connects with someone and opens their eyes to the reality of what happened to them. I firmly believe this because it happened to me.

    Thanks, Julie Anne

    PS Alex, as always, feel free to use my upcoming post in any way you desire.

  109. Well, actually Paul idea against Homosexuality is similar to the same belief of that of the 18h century he is not condeming bisexauls like the Roman Emperors l in the life of the 12 Caesars in Suetonius he is taking the Jewish view which was different from the Greco-Roman view. The Greco-Roman view was that the man who was passive was look down upon in the relationship not the agressive partner. Read classical historians on this like Peter Brown who wrote a book on culture from Roman Times to early medieval Times. And both the Justinian Code and the Common Law allow punished by death for homosexuality not that it was always enforced in the late Roman Empire and in the middle ages. I don’t believe that homosexualss should be punished for it but they could be jailed in the US for their activity up to the 1960′s.

  110. Good job with the interview, Alex!

  111. Oden Fong — that’s a name I haven’t heard in a LONG time, since I listened to Christianese AM radio in the Seventies, when local stations were all dominated by Calvary Chapel programs. I remember Chuck Smith’s rabid hatred of Star Wars, Raul Rees’s rabid hatred of Catholics, but I never heard much about Oden Fong beyond his name.

  112. Chuck hated on Star Wars? That does it, now I’m really ticked! :-)

    I think Ries has moderated his position on Catholics these days, but he sure did hate on them back in the day.

    Oden seems to be a great guy. He was head of CCOF (billed publicly as the accountability arm of CC)…which was an odd position for a guy like him. Fong is a musician and artsy type, very kind man, very talented, very gracious. I really like him actually.

    Romaine would’ve been a great head of CCOF, he would’ve busted the CCSP’s chops and probably been more protective of the regular person or “sheep” as CC calls them (I think Romaine would’ve handled it as such, could be wrong).

    Oden is now a pastor of his own church in SoCal and is more in the Charismatic early CC style. His approach is much less fundamentalist and much more charismatic these days. Fong treats people very well, and I think he’s a good dad and husband from what I can tell (and from what has been reported by those who know him well).

    I’ve been FB friends with him and had many discussions with him. IMO, a good guy. I’d rather see a bunch of Oden Fongs than a bunch of Raul Ries’s any day.

  113. Alex, I agree as much as I knew and have understood of Romaine. Funny how life is, years ago we were married by Romaine and he dedicated our child, I had asked God why it was Romaine, never the other one. who married/dedicated our child as I knew this was on Purpose. Well all I can say is thank you so much God, you are Wonderful.

  114. Chuck hated on Star Wars? That does it, now I’m really ticked!

    No skubalon. I remember radio sermons by him from that period where he’d go off-topic and denounce Star Wars as Satanic, Eastern Mysticism, Occultism, you name it. At the drop of a hat, and more often than not he’d drop the hat himself.

    In retrospect, it was probably a Witchfinder-General looking for a new Witch Hunt, and the Satanic Panic wouldn’t hit for a couple more years. Me? I was in-between churches back then, playing D&D on a weekly basis.

  115. Well, actually Paul idea against Homosexuality is similar to the same belief of that of the 18h century he is not condeming bisexauls like the Roman Emperors l in the life of the 12 Caesars in Suetonius he is taking the Jewish view which was different from the Greco-Roman view.

    In the Jewish view, it was one of their strongest taboos. Romans 1 is a “decline narrative” listing the breaking of taboo after taboo as evidence of decline; all that is missing is the rabbinical mantra “For these are the things which the Goyim do.”

    The Greco-Roman view was that the man who was passive was look down upon in the relationship not the agressive partner.

    Dom & Sub, Top & Bottom, Penetrator & Penetrated. Like a prison rape, “Make a Woman out of Him.” Dennis Prager went into detail about this in that essay that got him in so much hot water, “Why Judaism Rejected Homosexuality”; his thesis was that Torah redefined and restricted sex to between husband and wife, man and woman, removing it from the animal forced-dominance display of the surrounding tribes. (Who were supposed to have done it “doggie-style”, with the Penetrated crouching in submission beneath the Penetrator, adding to the animal forced-dominance symbolism.)

  116. Oden Fong — that’s a name I haven’t heard in a LONG time, since I listened to Christianese AM radio in the Seventies, when local stations were all dominated by Calvary Chapel programs. I remember Chuck Smith’s rabid hatred of Star Wars, Raul Rees’s rabid hatred of Catholics, but I never heard much about Oden Fong beyond his name. Well, Raul hated of Catholics is Catholicism in Mexico where Catholic and native beliefs somtimes get mixed and in his book it seems that the local priest wher not interested in the common folk like his grandmother. The Catholic church im Mexico is trying to repair its self since its lost members to Evangelical Protesantism or Seculaism. Mexicans from Mexico unlike we are done are not that much conservative on the social issues there is gay marriage and abortion now in Mexico City. Like I’ve stated the Catholic church has tried to improved the situation from Raul’s boyhood.

  117. Also, I known a protestant that spent time in Mexico and unlike the states adultery is more accept because of sthe Latin culture not Catholicism. A lot of Americans do committ adultery but unlike Mexico or Spain or Italy or France its though as wrong more.

  118. Its adultery is thought as more morally wrong in the US than in Latin Countries because of the latin culture.

  119. My complian with Remant X less hip-hop music, I’m 55 years old and like some different music please.

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