Calvary Chapel Abuse



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Blood son alleges sexual abuse by Pastor Bob Grenier Calvary Chapel Visalia

Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia continues to be endorsed and affiliated by Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, despite multiple allegations of corruption, physical abuse, spiritual abuse and now an allegation of sexual abuse of his male blood son.

My name is Paul Grenier and I am the adult son of Bob and Gayle Grenier.  Over the past few years, Bob Grenier’s private life has become very public.  I believe one can only hide the skeletons in their closet for so long.  Bob has a long history (30+ years) of slandering and maligning anyone who questions his authority or calls him out on his inappropriate behavior.

I have avoided making much public comment regarding the child abuse that took place in our home.  I have spent many years trying to stay as far away from Bob, Gayle, and Robert as possible.  However, the dysfunction and evil that pervades that family always seems to find a victim to attack.  While they profess to be Christians, their actions are so contrary to the teachings of the Bible it is startling to me.

I have struggled with how to respond to the following allegations.  I am a private person and for those of you who know me, you know this is something I do not take lightly.  This will be my one and only public statement regarding this matter.

It has come to my attention that Robert Grenier is blogging on the internet and telling people in the community that I molested him when we were growing up.  I deny this allegation in its entirety.

These are very troubling things to hear that one is saying about you.  I unlike Bob will make a public statement to defend my character and reputation.  I will also not ask anyone to take a side or defend me because I know the truth and that is all that matters.  My point in making this statement is to go on the record and tell my story.  People’s belief of disbelief of my story is of no consequence to me.  Frankly, I don’t really care.  I know what happened and that’s enough for me.

Robert was admitted to a mental health facility in the spring of 2004.  He claimed to be suicidal and that he was hearing voices in his head telling him to hurt himself and others.  I have no doubt he was hearing those voices as I have been a firsthand witness to his violent temper and inability to decipher fact from fiction. Robert is someone I avoided as a child, teenager, and now as an adult.  He truly scares me.

The last time I saw Robert was about 5 years ago.  He followed me in his car to my place of employment and proceeded to verbally assault me and went on to threaten my life.  When Robert took a breath between cursing and screaming, I managed to ask him why he was following me and attacking me in this manner.  He told me that he was angry at me, Alex, and Geoff for talking about Bob being a child abuser.  I told Robert that my issue was not with him so not to make one with me.  Robert told me he had waited outside my house at night on a number of occasions and that he wanted to kill me.  I absolutely believe he would as he is one of the most unstable, violent individuals I have ever encountered.

A couple of years after this incident, Robert contacted one of my brother’s and asked for my cell number.  Robert called me and we spoke on the phone.  I wasn’t sure what to expect but he was friendly and kind of reminisced about our childhood.  He kept telling me what a great childhood we had and how much he missed me, Alex, and Geoff.  He even asked if he could come up to visit me where I was living.  I let him talk and didn’t say much.  I have a standing rule not to engage with unstable people so I kind of just got through the conversation the best I could.

I mention this conversation because it seems very odd to me that you would contact the person who allegedly abused you and reminisce about the good times and propose a visit.  It certainly doesn’t ring true with my experience of avoiding any and all contact with my abuser.

I can only imagine that Robert is now making these allegations about me in an effort to protect Bob and Gayle.  Robert has a history of making outlandish accusations against people and then later changing his story at the last minute.  Since Robert has decided to spread such vitriol about me, I will now take the opportunity to share what I know about his past actions.  I know Robert was at a party with a group of men and engaged in homosexual behavior in front of them.  I witnessed Robert engaging in homosexual behavior with a friend of his while he was in high school.  Robert had an affair with a woman whose husband was off fighting in the Iraq War. Robert lived at the Visalia Rescue Mission for a brief while because of his issues with drugs, alcohol, and promiscuity.  Robert threatened bodily harm to a woman at Calvary for talking to his wife because he was concerned she might say something negative about his past actions.  Robert like Bob has a lot to hide.  And I would not be commenting on any of this had my hand not been forced.  I have most recently heard that Robert has an inappropriate relationship with a teenage boy that attends Calvary.  Quite often people that are pointing the finger and hurling accusations at people are themselves guilty of the very things they allege.  If Robert’s intention was to humiliate me he has not succeeded.  He has only succeeded in drawing an even bigger spotlight on himself, Bob, and Gayle and all of their wrongdoings.

I have agonized over what I am about to share.  I was the victim of sexual abuse in our home at the hands of my father. That is all the detail I will give publicly.

I have spoken privately to some about it.  I most recently spoke to a class action child abuse attorney along with my brother, Alex, and sister-in-law, Amy, about what was done to me.  I would prefer not to share such a horrific thing I lived through but I continue to be attacked and maligned by Bob, Gayle, and Robert.  I feel that at every turn I have tried to take the high road and be as gracious as possible.  I have been backed in a corner and have no choice but to make a public statement.

If you attend Calvary Chapel Visalia I would keep your children as far away from Bob and Robert as possible.  They are both evil people who will not give a second thought to hurting you and will actively try to destroy your life.  Bob has ruined multiple family relationships and marriages in his tenure at Calvary.

This last summer there were a number of articles that ran in the Visalia Times-Delta and Fresno Bee.  A handful of people rushed to Bob’s defense and I still remember their quotes about Bob’s strong character and how they did not believe me and my brothers’ account of abuse.  I would like to take this opportunity to tell those people that I find it repulsive that you would rush to the defense so irresponsibly of a person who has committed some serious crimes against children and should be rotting in a jail cell.  I further find it absurd that you would even feign knowledge of what happened in our home when you’ve never even spoken to me about what happened.  It is this reckless group of people that blindly defend the lunatic in the pulpit at Calvary that I find disgusting.  If I sound angry, I am. What an exercise in futility for Bob’s staff and followers to stand by and defend him when they’ve never even spoken to the victims.  Shame on you.

And shame on you Gayle for allowing all this abuse to happen on your watch.  I don’t even know how you live with yourself.  You out of everyone are probably the most abhorrent person I have ever had the displeasure of knowing.  I can’t begin to imagine what kind of mother would stand by and let these ongoing episodes of violence and abuse happen to her children.  I hope you live in shame the rest of your life for what you allowed to happen.  To some this may sound harsh, but I have had to live with this shame and these scars for many years as well.  My brothers and I were the victims.  Not Bob and Gayle as they would like you to believe.  We were innocent children that were terrorized in every way imaginable by the monster that is Bob Grenier.  Gayle knows it and chose to defend this monster and I hope when she looks in the mirror she sees the monster she allowed herself to become for defending her husband.

Bob also has a history of encouraging people not to come forward about sexual abuse.  A close friend of mine was kicked out of the church and told by Bob that she instigated the sexual abuse that was committed against her by her step-father.  This was the counseling she received from Bob after coming forward as an adult.  It makes me nauseated when I think about it.  And if you attend Calvary or are on Bob’s staff it should make you sick too.  And if it doesn’t trouble you then I pray for your soul.

I no longer live in Visalia so that I can be as far away from Bob, Gayle, and Robert as possible.  Yet all these years later, they still will pick a fight and character assassinate the victim.  Well that all stops today.

I will say this and say it once.  I was raised by the Bob the monster.  I survived it.  I was raised by a drug addicted, abuse condoning, abhorrent mother.  I survived it.  I grew up with a mentally disturbed younger brother.  I survived it.  I have been slandered and maligned by Bob’s inner circle. I survived it.  I can promise you this: anything Bob, Gayle, and Robert throw my way. I will survive it and be stronger because of it.  Bob could not break my will and spirit when I was a child and he nor anyone else associated with him will be able to do so today.

Bob, Gayle, and Robert want a fight. They’ve got one and a worthy opponent in me.  Dysfunction breeds dysfunction.  If I have to spend the rest of my life defending myself against them and keeping them out of my life I will do it.  And I will survive that too.

In closing, if they continue to come after me publicly they had better bring their best game.  Because I will not lie down and take it.  Rather, I will fight back and shout from the rooftops what Bob did to me so the whole world knows what a monster he is.  I have nothing to lose by telling the truth.  Many of you know that Bob always goes after a person the hardest when they have the worst information on him.  This is what they have done and continue to do me.  I will not start a fight…but I sure as hell will not back down from one when it calls into question my character and integrity.

Paul Grenier

Posted by on April 6, 2011.

Categories: Uncategorized

179 Responses

  1. Paul. I don’t know where to start. I was around you frequently when you were a young boy and wouldn’t have fathomed that this was happening to you. My heart breaks for you and your brothers. I have to agree with you, as a mother, Gayle is the one that shocks me the most. I’m so sorry for the pride and arrogance conveyed toward you instead of shame and repentance. This must be enraging and heartbreaking. May God make your cup overflow with Grace, as He obviously has done, while you work through this situation. I’m sorry you don’t have parents in your life but I am thankful you do have your two brothers and you know God is able to restore in a day all that the locusts have eaten year by year. Joel 2:25 I think. Love you, Desiree.

    by Desiree Vogel on Apr 6, 2011 at 11:19 pm

  2. Wow.

    by Doug Gilliland on Apr 7, 2011 at 4:44 am

  3. heart breaking… so difficult to even put into words the grief over the past actions which were horrible, and the current actions which compound the abuse and hurt…
    Prayers for Paul, Geoff, & Alex

    by Esther on Apr 7, 2011 at 9:14 am

  4. I agree with Esther, it’s difficult to even put into words. My heart goes out to you, Paul!

    by Grieving on Apr 7, 2011 at 9:19 am

  5. Paul, you are an amazingly strong person and I hope that this will help with the healing. I can’t imagine how hard this was for you to write, how many feelings it brought out.. Bravo Paul and Alex for what you are doing. Know that we are all with you.

    by Lori B on Apr 7, 2011 at 9:44 am

  6. Paul, you already know this but I have to say it again…You’re my hero and I’m so so proud of you for who you are!! <3

    by Sarah on Apr 7, 2011 at 10:50 am

  7. Paul, may you have strength for each day and bright hope for the future. Healing and peace to you.

    by Anne K. on Apr 7, 2011 at 4:47 pm

  8. Paul…for what it is worth…you were greatly liked by my parents who knew nothing that was going on in your home. I am certain that if my father had found out about your abuse, he would have single handedly exposed him himself. My father’s father physically abused him, and was affected by it all his life. He would have knocked your father’s front door down and dragged him before the inquisition. This is all madness and I hope your story will be carried by the wind in all four directions as far as the imagination can see. BG is a punk and needs to have his booty legally kicked.

    by Wide Awake on Apr 7, 2011 at 7:06 pm

  9. Paul I don’t know you but am aware of the atrocities at the hand of Bob. Alex is a brave and a honest man. I have no reason to doubt any of your testimony and like Alex, will pray for you. Bob is an animal and like many others, can’t help but feel that CCCM has a responsibility to fix this. I will pray for you Paul and don’t quit…

    by Covered on Apr 7, 2011 at 7:11 pm

  10. Hey Paul, Very proud of you!! I’ll be praying for you and your family. I have been a spectator for many years and not just a spectator but also have had my time under the sun with Bob and CCV. You know the details of our own departure from CCV, I can tell you that during this time in my life, I went thru one of the most trying times. God who started this work in me will complete it, but during this time I doubted my calling and was on the verge of seriously hurting someone. Who is Bob that he plays God and picks and chooses those he will go after and not only him but those that follow him, at the cost of mens souls. Mark 9:42 The lord said,” but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it’s better for him to tie a rock around his neck and throw himself into the sea.” Wisdom is to hear both sides of a story, but at CCV it is not the case. I guess it was just easier to see brothers and sisters go than to stand up, or at the least be a soft place rest. Surely, books will be opened on the last day, and God will replay and repay, some to glory and some to shame. But like you mention,
    Paul, the victims never get reached or heard. I guess its easier just turn pretend it’s not there. Also don’t let what bob has done be a stumbling block to your own personal relationship with God. I’m sure you’ve heard it your whole life, but it’s true that He came just for you and created you in the womb before the foundations of the earth, you’re very much loved. Again, will be praying. Friend in Christ

    by Rene on Apr 7, 2011 at 10:34 pm

  11. I think the senior leadership in Costa Mesa are very much responsible for BG remaining in the pulpit in Visalia. We need to call it what it is. They could deal with this tomorrow but choose not to. I recommend strongly turning away from any spiritual advice from that camp until they come clean on the issues raised in this blog. The very least they can do is require BG to take an administrative leave so this can be investigated thoroughly. I for one trust nothing they say from this day on until Alex and his brothers get this case into impartial hands that demonstrate a genuine concern for the well-being of alleged victims. I consider them cons and spiritual cheats unless they can show sensitivity to the clear teachings of the Word of God, and the Spirit’s compassionate leading. CCCM is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Yes…an embarrassment.

    by Wide Awake on Apr 8, 2011 at 12:05 am

  12. paul~ this is all so terrible. my heart breaks for you. i am praying for the true love of god to heal you deep inside. i feel angry with you, and sad too. i wish i could make it all go away. i only know one who can. jesus…

    by audra on Apr 8, 2011 at 6:11 pm

  13. I pray for the whole family to come back to Christ and forgive and be honest with each other for the cause of Christ. Pastor bob never has met me but he tried to destroy my ministry and family when I moved to Visalia to do the work of the Lord. Some times the pit dug for others is actually made for themselves. Praying for you all. LOve Pastor Phil Set Free Worldwide Ministries

    by Pastor Phil Aguilar on Apr 8, 2011 at 8:15 pm

  14. Phil, I think Confucius said it best:

    “He who lives in glass house shouldn’t throw stones”.

    Bob was abusing his kids while on his crusade to rid Visalia of you. How ironic.

    Your mistake was not being BFF’s with the D.A., the Sheriff, the old Police Chief and half the City Council. You just needed better P.R., better spin-doctoring, better stonewalling and all of Bob’s connections and you would’ve survived Bob’s inquisition against you.

    by admin on Apr 8, 2011 at 8:53 pm

  15. I just read this now. I have been mentally and spiritually destroyed by the things I endured at the hands of Bob Grenier to. I would have to say I have hit rock bottom. It still disturbs me to this day, the mental and spiritual abuse I endured the last couple of years I was there. All of that said, I can’t even begin to imagine all that you and your brothers have endured. My husband told me the other day, “Tina if you give up, Bob wins”

    Before the abuse started for me, I loved going to church and serving God’s people. Now it almost takes everything I have just to walk into a church. Last year when I stepped out of the ministry so I could speek freely on the issues that haunted me and to stand on your defense, Satan set in for his attack on me. I have fought my own demons this past year seeking to destroy all that I am and have known myself to be. It all has been a daily battle for me. I’m sharing this to let others know that the suffering under Bob has damaged so many of us in a very real and intense way.

    I trust that God will bring me through all of this and that my true friends will stand in the gap for me and pray as God begins to restore me.

    But know this Paul, I will always be behind you and your brothers. I pray that God will give you a peace during this ongoing trial and that he will protect your mind and give you clarity. Someday Bob will pay for what he has put you and many others through.

    by Tina Jenkins on Apr 8, 2011 at 9:03 pm

  16. I felt sick to my stomach and so grieved reading this post . Oh, Lord help this family to heal.

    Paul, my “mama’s heart” is hugging and weeping with you.

    by AJ on Apr 9, 2011 at 3:31 am

  17. Bob Grenier is as evil as they come. You cannot read what has been revealed here without coming to that conclusion.

    I recently saw a poster showing Brent Calvin, one of Grenier’s Church leaders, that stated that he recently won Administrator of the Year through the Educator’s Educational Credit Union for 2010. Brent is a high ranking administrator at the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California.One of his duties at the College is to insure that employees and students live and work in a safe environment while on the campus. It appears he is quite good at his job. Yet he is unwilling or incapable to insure the safety of church members at CCV under the inept leadership of Bob Greneir. Stonewalling would never be tolerated at the College, yet he may be harboring a felon at worst, or a brute at best within the very church he supports financially and attends with his family. He like another board member at CCV, are both highly influencial in their public jobs but virtual wimps when it comes to truly standing with the oppressed and abused. He should be stripped of his recent award.

    by Wide Awake on Apr 9, 2011 at 8:24 am

  18. May God bless and strengthen you to be able to endure that which He has set before you, in and through His Holy Spirit, and may you be an overcomer to the end, and love not even your life unto death.

    by A Seed Sower on Apr 9, 2011 at 11:27 am

  19. Paul, no one should ever have had to endure what you did. Ever. It took a lot of courage to come forward with painful but needful truths. There seems to be a lot of projection in BG Sr. and Jr.’s MO’s.

    How you were victimized is an abombination. May God’s grace and peace sustain you. Prayers for you.

    P.S. I want for you not only to survive but to thrive!

    by Lone Ranger on Apr 9, 2011 at 8:16 pm

  20. Tina,

    I feel for you.
    Satan has set out to destroy me as well using other believers.
    It has been a trial for our entire family, but I know without a doubt, because I know what God’s word says..even though we may not feel His presence He is there working all things for our good. It takes time and it takes endurance. Thats why Paul says to run the race with endurance. This endurance can only come from the Lord because I did not have it in me.
    The greatest oppression and abuse comes within the walls that are supposed to be the Lords, and sometimes anything but.
    God is showing us all something about the evil that exists and the enemy has his soldiers disguised as saints.
    Let us all look up to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith and have compassion and love for one another, and keep one another in prayer.

    Tina, my prayers are with you.
    God will strengthen you.
    It has taken me 2 years to begin to see the beauty in this world.
    All I saw for years was hypocrisy.

    It is Sunday and again another week I don’t even want to set foot in church.
    I feel the love of God more as an outsider.
    There is just too much to sift through there.
    Praying for you. For Gods love to shine on your day.
    He loves us all so much.,Especially those suffering for His sake.

    by Hannah on Apr 10, 2011 at 8:17 am

  21. Paul, I don’t know you but I am praying for you as well.

    by Hannah on Apr 10, 2011 at 8:19 am

  22. Fusco gives a number of arguments that are fallacious. Picking one of the poorer arguments he gives:

    “There are problems in other denominations.” That is a particularly bad argument. Let’s pick another example to shed light on why… It would be as if to say “There are murderers in other cities, so why would we prosecute murderers in our city?”

    It’s not relevant whether or not abuse happens in other denominations. It’s happening in Calvary Chapel.

    The next argument is easily answered from the second big crime in Genesis… The defense of the CC pastor to why they don’t act is “am I my brother’s keeper?” Of course a CC pastor should be his brother’s keeper. If they don’t claim to be brothers (since they want to avoid the idea they are co-elders, etc) then at the least they should be claiming that their common bond is their brotherhood.

    If they can’t personally intervene, can they look into figuring out who is on the board (since many boards are filled with pastors from outside the local church – an absurdity in my book, by the way). If they find that Pastor X is on the board, they can call Pastor X and relay on the information. They can/should at least do that.

    Alex, who is on the CCV board now? We keep viewing them as powerless – and they ultimately are because they can be fired at the whim of the Sr Pastor – but they are the ones who bear the most immediate responsibility.

    For Fusco to recast affiliation as “the Michigan pastors” is also absurd. His affiliation is formally ONLY with Chuck Smith.

    Since I’m banned on PP, I’ve taken up my case here…

    Maybe next I’ll go after the fallacious argument that since there are problems in other polities (forms of church government) than what CC has formed is permissible…

    by Doug Gilliland on Apr 10, 2011 at 10:27 am

  23. Doug, excellent points.

    Yes, completely irrational argument regarding, “well others are just as bad or worse”.

    Nothing to add to what you addressed there. It’s crystal clear Fusco’s (and many other CC guy’s) rationale is wrong and they should rethink that angle.

    Good idea regarding Bob Grenier’s current Board. Time to expose them and call them to responsibility, even though, as you correctly stated, they are Yes Men and Bob Puppets.

    At last tally these are the “men” who are on Bob Grenier’s Calvary Chapel Visalia 501(c)3 Board:

    CC Pastor’s:

    1. Raul Ries, Calvary Chapel Golden Springs
    2. David Rosales, Calvary Chapel Chino Valley
    3. Gary Ruff, Calvary Chapel Foothills / Sun Valley

    Locals:

    4. Brent Calvin, former Athletic Director at College of the Sequoias in Visalia and current Dean of Business and Social Science (I think).
    5. Jeff Fly, CEO at Turning Point of Central California, Inc.
    6. Greg Dowds
    7. John Millinich (I believe this is the correct spelling, I don’t know much about him).

    That is the last verifiable information I have. It would be great to get an updated list. I will run a feature on each person and all them to accountability.

    Each of the “men” above were sent communication regarding the child abuse allegations and NONE of them responded, save Gary Ruff. Gary and I spoke at length on a few occasions (and Gary spoke with my brother Geoff recounting abuses Gary had witnessed on a mission’s trip in the Philippines in 1985, including a long conversation the two had in Gary’s hotel room where Geoff told Gary about some of the abuse that was going on in the home).

    Gary told me he would be reporting the information to Raul Ries (they are brother-in-laws) and to David Rosales. He told me Rosales was out of town at the time and that basically Raul wanted Gary to deal with this and report back to him.

    CCOF was supposed to have gotten involved after those conversations…as I contacted Roger Wing as well.

    by admin on Apr 10, 2011 at 10:46 am

  24. Hannah, thank you 8) It’s people like you that help me hang in there and give me hope.

    by Tina Jenkins on Apr 10, 2011 at 10:47 am

  25. Doug, regarding “affiliation”…CC likes to parse words and change definitions to suit their desires.

    There is Legal and there is Spiritual.

    They can spin all they want, but I think it’s pretty clear they are all co-Elders under the CC Umbrella. They claim “affiliation” and co-Eldership when it suits them…like for a “Ministry” Cruise, a Men’s Conference or a Prophecy Conference or when they intermingle on each other’s Boards…

    …but when it comes to 1 Timothy 5:19-21…suddenly “we’re all independent”.

    by admin on Apr 10, 2011 at 10:51 am

  26. I would ask the CC pastors, like Fusco, to contact the three CC pastors who are on the board and air their concerns about CCV. If they don’t then I’d ask them why they won’t.

    Other denominations have abuse. The primary problem in CC is not that they have abuse, but that they don’t have the usual mechanisms in place to handle them.

    As an examples, as horrifying as the abuse of young boys was by Catholic Priests, the real problem that dogs the RCC is that they reassigned these guys instead of defrocking them. Same issue for CC. It’s not a systemic problem that they have abuse, but it is a problem that they have no mechanism in the system to call a pastor to accountability.

    Let me reverse your argument for a moment. Since there is no way (apparently) to address abuses in CC, then CC fails the test of what constitutes a church in Scripture.

    by Doug Gilliland on Apr 10, 2011 at 11:28 am

  27. There is Scriptural precedence for one church intervening in another. There are passages in Acts that come to mind, Again, if CC wants to maintain the claim they are a New Testament church, they can use these passages for examples on how to proceed.

    by Doug Gilliland on Apr 10, 2011 at 12:06 pm

  28. Doug, unfortunately, the cynical side of me believes that at the core, it’s really about protecting the Smith Family assets.

    They’ve probably received some bad legal advice that if they repeat loud enough and long enough that they aren’t a denomination and have zero liability for instituting 1,200 + Positions of Trust in our Society through Chuck Smith’s “anointing”…that it makes it so.

    Wrong.

    With the Power comes responsibility…and liability. That’s what the RCC found out, that’s what the Mormon Church found out, that’s what the Boy Scouts found out…the hard way and millions of dollars later.

    I hate to see it come to that, but if the Church won’t govern itself and take common sense steps to protect children…then something outside the Church will…eventually.

    by admin on Apr 10, 2011 at 12:55 pm

  29. Kelly Clark is a hero. He is on the very short list of men I truly admire…though, I don’t put him on a pedestal, he is a fallible man just like you…just like me.

    However, he is a great example of falling, repenting and being reborn…and using the rest of his life to help “the least of these”. He’s a modern day example that inspires me.

    Kelly has taken on the largest most powerful institutions/organizations/Agencies in the Religious and Non-Profit sectors on behalf of child abuse victims.

    He continues to do Landmark work and makes real changes for the good of helping to protect children from abusers and reforming Systems to address abuses through prevention, awareness and best practices etc.

    Here is a link to a great article that illustrates part of the problems with Calvary Chapel and why they will (eventually) be challenged for not doing some very common sense things on their own:

    http://www.kellyclarkattorney.com/opinion/the-pedophile-files-lessons-from-the-boy-scouts-trial-2/

    If you have been abused by a Calvary Chapel pastor, email me at agrenier7@gmail.com. I will put you in touch with Kelly Clark personally.

    by admin on Apr 10, 2011 at 1:11 pm

  30. “it’s really about protecting the Smith Family assets.”

    It is always about that, always. Just delete “smith” and fill in the blank. You know I have been in what I laughingly call “ministry” for about 30 years, I can honestly say I have never gotten a penny for doing it, paid alot of pennies but never gotten one. I do not think it wrong that a pastor worker should get paid, they should get health insurance, life insurance etc. I think in a way they should organize and be protected as well. Pastors often get the short end of the stick from a board or a congregation. I chose to live my life the way I have, something I am now totally ashamed of, looking back I was an ignorant blank. But that is another post. And no that was not tongue in cheek it is how I feel.

    by brian on Apr 10, 2011 at 2:37 pm

  31. Alex…I hope you refer these men to Kelly’s firm. I would like to eventually hear what they say on record about the BG affair.

    At last tally these are the “men” who are on Bob Grenier’s Calvary Chapel Visalia 501(c)3 Board:

    CC Pastor’s:

    1. Raul Ries, Calvary Chapel Golden Springs
    2. David Rosales, Calvary Chapel Chino Valley
    3. Gary Ruff, Calvary Chapel Foothills / Sun Valley

    Locals:

    4. Brent Calvin, former Athletic Director at College of the Sequoias in Visalia and current Dean of Business and Social Science (I think).
    5. Jeff Fly, CEO at Turning Point of Central California, Inc. Also on a State Board of Mental Health ironically.
    6. Greg Dowds (former Assistant City Manager of Visalia)
    7. John Millinich (I believe this is the correct spelling, I don’t know much about him) He was a high ranking officer in the Sheriff’s Department…law enforcement…lol.

    If you are able to eventually substantiate the claims against BG, these men’s careers are going to be greatly affected. I would think they would be proactive and seek a reasonable solution before this ends up in court.

    by Wide Awake on Apr 10, 2011 at 3:20 pm

  32. Just read Kelly Clark’s website. If I were CS at CCCM, or any of the others in close proximity to BG at CCV (including all the Tulare County religious leaders cooperating with him on projects like the Mayor’s Prayer Breakfast) I would be very very concerned about what may transpire in the coming future. BG will not be the only one purged from the system. Now I am certain that BG will get what is coming to him, and justice, wrapped up in mercy for the victims, will be accomplished. Bravo and Maranatha!

    by Wide Awake on Apr 10, 2011 at 3:40 pm

  33. Watching the Borgia on Showtime. Noticing certain parallels.

    by Doug Gilliland on Apr 10, 2011 at 4:53 pm

  34. Do you mean this Borgia?
    _______________

    “…they became prominent during the Renaissance. The Borgias were patrons of the arts; thanks to their support, artists of the Renaissance could ‘spread their wings’ and realize their artistic potential. The most brilliant personalities of this era regularly visited their court.

    The Borgias became prominent in ecclesiastical and political affairs in the 1400s and 1500s. Today they are remembered for their corrupt rule when one of them was Pope. They have been accused of many different crimes, including adultery, simony, theft, rape, bribery, incest, and murder (especially murder by arsenic poisoning[1]). Because of their search for power, they made enemies of other powerful families such as the Medici and the Sforza, as well as the influential Dominican friar Savonarola.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia

    by Grieving on Apr 10, 2011 at 5:44 pm

  35. Doug said,

    “Other denominations have abuse. The primary problem in CC is not that they have abuse, but that they don’t have the usual mechanisms in place to handle them.”

    “I hate to see it come to that, but if the Church won’t govern itself and take common sense steps to protect children…then something outside the Church will…eventually.”
    ____________________

    This is the main point! Well put, Doug.

    by Grieving on Apr 10, 2011 at 5:50 pm

  36. I just threw Bob Grenier’s book in the recycle bin, hopefully something good will come up with it.

    by Lyle Ferguson on Apr 12, 2011 at 7:01 pm

  37. Paul, your testimony cannot be ignored. CCCM, CCV, and the real Christian world will have to sit up and take notice. None of this can or should be swept under the rug.

    The perpetrated abombinations to which you allude can’t and shouldn’ be swept under the proverbial CC rug or be covered by the Dove Mantle. All of this, along with CC non-member member abuse, is antithetical to true Christianity.

    Prayers continue to be said on behalf of you and your brothers.

    by Lone Ranger on Apr 15, 2011 at 12:39 pm

  38. Just when I think I’ve moved on, I read something so profound as Paul’s horrible life. I am so ashamed of the pain to you and others. Please Lord get the truth revealed to our city and those who have shut their eyes and ears. It’s a modern day sin city as in the days of Moses. Come down from the mountain with your word and reveal truth and remove this sin as far as the east to the west. Bless and heal those who have been wounded. Nothing compares as to the suffering of Jesus on the cross, and Easter is the time to look to God’s miracle……and I pray He will provide one soon.

    by moving on on Apr 18, 2011 at 1:11 am

  39. God bless you as you expose the Truth.

    by goretta duncan on Oct 29, 2011 at 6:29 am

  40. Some of us have heard Paul’s testimony with our own ears. Since this was posted, there have been several (sadly) stories that have broken nationally about high profile men sexually abusing children. The list of allegations of bob grenier’s criminal offenses are growing, and first-hand accounts are being briefly reported. The full disclosures are being given to legal authorities who have the ability to sift for the truth, and make arrests if warranted.

    To the grenier family who live in Visalia, CA:
    You are fully aware of these terrible stories, and you know they are true. Time is on the side of those who have been deeply hurt by all of you, and the truth will eventually come out. Those of us who have watched the unfolding of this tragic story for many years, find it hard to offer you any pity for your actions. The victims are quite empowered now to disclose everything, and to clear their minds of this so they can begin to find resolution and begin a healing process. You have spun a very clever web of deceit, you have used your words to twist the truth and pin blame on your accusers but that will come to an end, and in mr. grenier’s case, probably a very abrupt end. Mr. Smith said on air recently that Alex has brought a lot of pain into the family. Is that so? Pain from guilt and regret? Or suffering similar to when Judas was found out? Your pain is not pain from being falsely accused, your pain is the result of years of slandering good people. Your pain is from the Lord’s displease of your actions toward His little lambs and sheep. You all need to stop crying Wolf, and hone up to the truth. You are all in a heap of trouble, and I hope in this new year you admit to that, and begin to face the reality of your sins rather than make it sound as though Paul, Alex, Geoff, and the scores of others are at fault in all of this.

    I know Jesus entered this world and died for the sins of sinful Mankind. I look in scripture and see that Judas didn’t show any signs of gratitude for that. The Pharisees didn’t either. But Mary Magdalene, a prostitute did. I know God’s grace and mercy extends even to bob grenier but I watch to see if he lives in a daily pursuit of God, living in such a way that it pleases the Father. So far, in 30+ years, grenier is known best for his cunning life and horrific actions toward the weak and unsuspecting. Your public reputation speaks volumes about your true character but family always sees the truth. grenier’s family is a mess, and that is not because of Paul or Alex’s disclosures…it’s because bob grenier in a sinner, and relishes in it.

    by Wide Awake on Dec 25, 2011 at 9:58 am

  41. Interesting that Bob doesn’t name Paul in the coming lawsuit. An indication he is afraid to address Paul’s molestation charges?

    by Alex on Sep 18, 2012 at 9:14 pm

  42. I want to go on the record once again that I believe Paul. I personally remember Bob Grenier making me shower with him in a one-person shower which was creepy and he also made it a regular habit of walking around in front of us naked with his genitals exposed. It was weird.

    Paul is 10 years my younger and says Bob molested him years after I was a kid. I believe him. Bob is a child abuser, a self-professed drug dealer and drug smuggler who never faced justice and has a history of financial impropriety according to many CCV inside sources, including Paul who witnessed much while he was in the home.

    The public is warned to steer clear of his “ministry”. Don’t submit yourselves to his “spiritual” leadership, run for the hills. He’s a bad guy, a wolf, don’t trust him.

    by Alex on Sep 18, 2012 at 9:26 pm

  43. And, Bob, f you and your idiot attorneys. You aren’t going to stop me from speaking out…ever. Even after you die someday, I’ll still tell the story to warn others about the dangers of pastoral abuse, child abuse, molestation in the church etc and how bad guys like you can weasel into a Position of Trust and the warning signs to look for.

    by Alex on Sep 18, 2012 at 9:28 pm

  44. Paul, I don’t know you, but I know enough about child abuse, domestic violence, and psychopathy. Because this, it is not difficult to see that if nothng else, by sheer numbers there runs the common scenarios that have been and continue to be played out between the abuser, his proxies (people who cover for him, usually unknowingly, unwittingly, or because they share the same mindset of corruption and evil), and the abused.

    For you, and your brothers, I can’t express the anger I have towards such people. Particularly, towards those who have failed to bring this to the forefront of the leadership and to bring vindication and justice to 3, and perhaps 3 children who are innocent, yet have had to endure the shadow of such atrocities being committed against them under the cross that bears witness to evil of mankind and those who make a choice mock His name by ignoring and even covering up these things.

    May the Lord, God almighty bring his wrath upon all CC who continues to stand by and ignore these things while permitting such to stand as a shepherd to “protect” HIS flock. May truth reign and may any and all schemes be turn back upon them. May, your Holy Spirit convict the hearts of the body, to speak up in unity against these things. May their eyes and hearts be open to hear the cries of the children who only wanted to be loved, protected, and valued members of their church family and home. Lord, hear my petition on behalf of these. You are Lord, and you have told us that anyone that touches one of your own would be dealt with. Lord, I would ask that, this time would be now. Purge your church, oh God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for we are your people, grafted in through the blood, and now look to you to go before us and putting down all strongholds that would hinder these children, as well as others who have tasted the evils of the corrupted, and bring victory to what and who is so very close to your hearts. Hear me, my Lord and my God——–in Jesus name, and for His sake—–I pray.

    Shalom, in Jesus

    Alex, please remember, he has created this false image. Being so, he has also carved into the minds of others what he would like them to believe. But you know the truth, don’t let his “demeanor” throw you off. Don’t let it get to you—–he’s not that person. You know it, God knows, and he knows it. Find the weak link—-his pride and his ego. Then use truth to expose it.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 19, 2012 at 3:19 am

  45. Sorry—should read 3 children, and maybe 4 (meaning your brother, Robert)

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 19, 2012 at 3:22 am

  46. Went on and this thread came up.

    Amen to Lindas #44.

    “In addition to taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming missles of the evil one” Ephesians 6:6

    by Hannah on Sep 19, 2012 at 5:40 am

  47. Correction
    Ephesians 6:16, but you know…. maybe God wanted Ephesians 6:16.

    by Hannah on Sep 19, 2012 at 5:42 am

  48. too early to think! Delete the last in moderation. Ephesians 6:6 is really on target too…

    by Hannah on Sep 19, 2012 at 5:43 am

  49. Thank you Bob for giving us an opportunity to bring this public. You have choosen to bring this to court. It doesn’t surprise me at all. You personally bullied me around with the threat that I would have to leave if I told anyone what you said about a former employee. The countless times you came in my office to “check on me”. The arms crossed and intimidating stares you would give me in the foyer to make sure you had me under your control. You are a bully Bob Grenier. Do you really want to bring all of this out?

    by Tina Jenkins on Sep 19, 2012 at 7:23 am

  50. And I suffered a tremendous amount of anxiety under your employment. Honestly the outcome of this makes no difference to me. My concern has always been for others and that you wounldn’t have the opportunity to destroy other people spirtitually like you have done to me. I have survived and have become all the wiser, but I’m not the same woman you knew.

    by Tina Jenkins on Sep 19, 2012 at 7:27 am

  51. And the one you should blame is yourself. Take a good long look in the mirror Bob. The reflection you see is the one you need to bring into submission. What more pain would you like to inflict on me, you want my house that I owe more on then it’s worth? Take it! By the way I had to file bankruptcy so I’m flat broke. So if it’s money you want I don’t have any. You want me to pick up trash on the freeway for a year because I’m speaking up for myself and others? I count it an honor. I’m not affraid of you Bob.

    by Tina Jenkins on Sep 19, 2012 at 8:19 am

  52. And I believe God has strengthened me for this very opportunity to face my abuser. God has done alot in my life sense I left Calvary Chapel 5 years ago. I do find it interesting though that you did not include Paul and I know why. He has suffered enough, thank you for excluding him.

    by Tina Jenkins on Sep 19, 2012 at 8:24 am

  53. And the crowd roars … cheering, “GO TINA! GO TINA! GO TINA!”

    by Grateful on Sep 19, 2012 at 8:28 am

  54. Amen Tina. He’s a bully and he’s going to get punched (metaphorically) right in his bully mouth.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 8:37 am

  55. As many of us knows, standing up to bully/abusers costs. But I know that in my case it’s been well worth it to protect others! I hear others say the same.

    I hope the readers get the true motivation that many of us on here have communicated we have …

    What it is NOT:
    * It is NOT revenge taken into our own hands.

    What it IS:
    * It IS obeying God when He tells us in 1Timothy 5:20 to expose the unrepentant leader in sin and warn others.

    Bob Grenier is being very thoughtful to provide you all with such a great public platform from which to expose Bob and warn others.

    by Grateful on Sep 19, 2012 at 8:38 am

  56. Grateful, AMEN, that is the reason, it’s a deep conviction I have to expose the stuff and warn the public. It’s the best I can do with the pain that I endured is to warn others.

    And, it’s much broader than Bob Grenier, he’s just a microcosm for the larger Problem in Calvary Chapel and in the Evangelical Church at large. Child Abuse, Molestation, Spousal Abuse, Spiritual Abuse, Corruption etc are real. It happens in the church all the time and there are big RED FLAGS to look for and I encourage folks to run not walk if they see the warning signs. Where there’s smoke there’s fire.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 8:45 am

  57. Alex, Grateful, Tina – - I get a whole lot of feelings when I read this story and comments on this blog. I’m trying to put pieces together and it’s bringing up so many things for me personally as I went through my lawsuit experience. These abuse stories all resemble each other after a while. The patterns are all the same. The control tactics are all the same. They use similar methods of covering up. They all have an inner circle. In their quest for defending their name and their image, all sorts of crazy things are done and more people are hurt in the process. And the most obvious thing lacking from these men who call themselves shepherds is their self-absorbtion. When their is so much navel-gazing going on, there is an inability to love, to connect deeply with people, to extend grace, to truly shepherd. Jesus gets lost in the shuffle.

    My heart goes out to you all. I believe you. Be strong. Stand firm in the truth. You will have no regrets. God was with me every step of the process – even in the tiniest of details. What people seem to forget are the spiritual lives affected by this kind of abuse. It is long lasting, not only with people directly affected, but by extended family and friends. You are doing this for them. You are doing this for the whole church at large. I was struck by the amount of e-mails/comments I got (literally hundreds) from people claiming to be atheists who left the church because of what you and I went through. Yes, this is important. You are speaking for them. You are voicing what others are too weak to express. Thank you! I feel God put me through this for a purpose and if I can be of assistance, don’t hesitate to contact me. – - ~Julie Anne bgbcsurvivors@gmail.com -

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 19, 2012 at 9:09 am

  58. Thank you so much Julie Anne.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 9:13 am

  59. Tina said, “I do find it interesting though that you did not include Paul and I know why. He has suffered enough, thank you for excluding him.”

    Yes, very interesting, almost like an admission.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 9:16 am

  60. #59 – - -Even my case had something similar. We all were wondering how they chose the 5 people to sue. I was an obvious one to sue because of my blog, but the 2 who were dismissed? Why? Why not the former staff person who was fired and posted on the blog? Could it be because he was perhaps fired in an illegal manner? Could it be because he had too much info that would come out? These things are all very interesting. You can be sure there is a reason why certain people are sued and others are not.

    Another similarity is that the law firm for the CC case mentions subpoenas and discovery requests. Narcissists have difficulty seeing beyond themselves and seem to forget that by doing discovery and questioning, all kinds of dirt will come out- – much more than they could ever anticipate. In a way, some of us in our case wish that discovery was allowed because then so much of the truth that has been held under wraps would have to be fully disclosed. Some people are good record keepers. Let’s just say that the anti-SLAPP made our pastor look much better than if it went to a full-blown trial where everything was uncovered. Now things have quieted down, but all of the truth was not exposed. I still will not publish much of what I know because the information I have is held in confidence. That does not sit very well with me. I think all of the truth should be exposed so people can make a sound decision. But I won’t break that confidence. It is their story to share, not mine.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 19, 2012 at 10:20 am

  61. Julie Anne, interesting point. Anti-SLAPP may be what Bob wants, then he can claim to be the victim to his faithful.

    Discovery would be a good thing and could be far reaching to others in Bob’s Calvary Chapel web, including board members Raul Ries, etc.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 10:22 am

  62. I bet with some good coaching I could take this on. It would be interesting to drag it through the discovery process and subpoena and depose folks and expose all the bad stuff.

    But, that could be done in a separate child abuse suit.

    Anti-SLAPP is probably the best move for the other folks attached, then I could do the other in a separate lawsuit for the child abuse against Bob and Calvary Chapel Visalia since they are okey dokey with using the Court System to resolve these matters.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 10:27 am

  63. A press conference for Bob’s victims is a great idea.

    If he follows through with the suit and doesn’t chicken out, I think a press conference at the Tulare County Courthouse steps with an alert to all the local and national media is a good idea. I’d be happy to answer questions regarding Bob’s defamation lawsuit and fight for the right to speak out about him and the church and the bad stuff he’s done.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 10:30 am

  64. Bob, big middle finger right back at you. You beat me down as a kid, I won’t be a victim as an adult. This will go on and on and on, you’ll never stop me from speaking out and I won’t go away and I’ll fight to the end on many fronts. This is just the beginning.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 10:32 am

  65. Alex – “drag it through” – is probably very appropriate wording. The anti-SLAPP is designed to be a speedy process – it was drafted to stop frivolous lawsuits on free speech and saves court costs/attorney fees by halting discovery. Normal trials – child abuse, etc, can take years. It’s a long, long process and completely different than anti-SLAPP process.

    I’m inclined to agree with you – - – that your personal case is far more than Free Speech.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 19, 2012 at 11:28 am

  66. JulieAnne said,

    “I still will not publish much of what I know because the information I have is held in confidence. That does not sit very well with me. I think all of the truth should be exposed so people can make a sound decision. But I won’t break that confidence. It is their story to share, not mine.”

    Yep, I’ve got a stack of ‘em. Good news is that more and more people are starting to open up. They are finding that by talking with others they are much better able to find the missing pieces to understanding the depth of spiritual abuse, cultic types of control, deception, and actual intimidation with firearms in possession, etc…

    by Grateful on Sep 19, 2012 at 11:44 am

  67. Alex,

    Funny you’d mention fighting on other fronts. Consider this: The Wehrmacht was also thought to be invincible until they got bogged down in a certain city on the Volga river. If CC continues to press its luck in court, I’m convinced that they’ll suffer their own Stalingrad too.

    by Muff Potter on Sep 19, 2012 at 11:45 am

  68. My runt of a church is nothing compared to the monstrosity of CC. My church was an independent church with no oversight by anyone. What in the world are the higher ups at CC doing about this? Do they have a say? Can they intervene? Is there anyone over BG? hmm, did you notice my former church starts with BG? LOL

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 19, 2012 at 11:51 am

  69. With the way CS blasted Alex from the pulpit, it occurred to me that maybe he was flipping the bill for this lawsuit. CS is responsible but supposedly he recently gave his powers away so I dunno.

    by Andrew on Sep 19, 2012 at 11:56 am

  70. Julie Anne said,

    “What in the world are the higher ups at CC doing about this? Do they have a say? Can they intervene? Is there anyone over BG? ”

    That opens a can of worms. Here’s my best summary:

    * The original CC was an independent church that spawned many “mini-me’s”.
    * Chuck Smith said he was avoiding the problems of denominations by only having a “movement” that was described as an “association”.
    * Many speculate he was actually trying to avoid responsibility, while still maintaining the control.
    * Chuck Smith still made decisions about other CC churches/pastors/how sin was handled, etc… But he did it when he wanted to and not when he didn’t want to.
    * Many CC pastors declared Chuck Smith is their leader.
    * In the wake of troubles within the CC (lawsuits) CCOF (Chuck Smith is the president, the ruling arm of CC) began changing it’s lingo to make it sound more like CC pastors simply shared some commonality, declaring they were all totally independent … yet, this was not necessarily reflected in how Chuck Smith or the CC pastors acted.
    * In the most recent lawsuit (child abuse in CC,) Chuck Smith said he has absolutely no rule or control over any CC’s anywhere.
    * In the last month, Chuck Smith (who declared he has no control) made the decision to reorganize CC and create a hierarchy of sorts geographically. (But each church is totally independent … but they have to now answer to their regional leaders … for what? dunno?)

    So you tell me? Are their any higher ups in CC?

    Alex has tried for years to go to elders, board members, regional CC leaders, other CC pastors, and even a face to face meeting with Chuck Smith, himself. All to no avail. They say they don’t have power. Some just ignore Alex.

    In my case, when our CC pastor was AWOL for months and the “left behind” assistant pastor had to run the whole show alone, he called the board for help … only to discover there was no board, hadn’t been one for 3 years. He found out very quickly that there wasn’t anyone who could legally make a decision. So some other CC pastors came into the vacuum of leadership and basically took over (some call it a huge asset grab!)

    To my knowledge, the power/asset grab was not actually legal. From what we can surmise, they had the absent CC pastor over a barrel for breaking the law in operating without a board, along with damning evidence of the CC pastor’s extramarital adventures, or whatever evidence they had on him at the time (more showed up later.)

    In essence, there was no one really empowered to deal with this errant pastor. Letters and calls to Chuck Smith and CCOF went unanswered, from what I’ve been told.

    by Grateful on Sep 19, 2012 at 12:30 pm

  71. My understanding is that there is still an affiliation process to become a CC and that responsibility now lies with the regional pastors. I believe there is a national counsel that also over sees this process. So there does seem to be some sort of vetting process and standard that needs to be observed to become a CC but I think its just about any one’s guess to what it takes to become unaffiliated. It seems like its a free for all at this point since there has been no intervention with anything since the lawsuit against CCOF. So all these CC churches end up endorsed on their website with the CCA’s stamp of approval.

    by Andrew on Sep 19, 2012 at 12:42 pm

  72. And its not really the church (the members) that are endorsed its actually the senior pastor that is affiliated and endorsed. This basically is CC’s understanding of what a church is.

    by Andrew on Sep 19, 2012 at 12:53 pm

  73. I think it’s important to remember, that if an “affiliated” CC pastor leaves a CC church, the church ceases to be a CC, unless another is “affiliated” in his place.

    In essence, the pastor is the church and not the people. The people have no say, do not have the right to see the finances by law, cannot hold a pastor accountable for ethical or biblical failures, and have no influence over the direction of the church and it’s resources.

    by Grateful on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:18 pm

  74. Grateful, so in your situation when the pastor went AWOL, the church ceased to be a CC but somewhere along the line, the CC system went in and grabbed the assets (building, land, equipment, etc..). So in away, the “right of survivor ship” belongs to this massive CC system yet they have the audacity to say they are all 100% independent.

    by Andrew on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:27 pm

  75. Ok, so that sounds essentially the same as my former church. BGBC is affiliated with Grace Brethren, they pay their membership dues each year, but no one is over the individual churches. They are independent churches with a club membership (with the membership, they have access to a summer camp facility).

    So basically, CC is run like all other Independent Fundamental Bible churches (IFB). No wonder there are so many problems in these churches with the lack of oversight.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:29 pm

  76. Actually Calvary Chapel tries to have it both ways.

    They argue they have an Ecclesiastical Hierarchy in the court case in Tucson, then back away from that in the molestation case in Idaho.

    CCOF has been billed publicly as the ‘accountability arm’ of Calvary Chapel and I was referred to CCOF initially by Gene Pensiero of CC Hanford years ago. He told me that CCOF wanted to hear about abuses etc and that they handled church discipline etc.

    Now there is the Calvary Chapel Association where they articulate and Ecclesiastical Hierarchy with Regional Guys in charge of dealing with “problems” according to their letter they sent CC pastors and the Don McClure is head of the whole thing. There’s also a Board for the Association that includes many of the Big CC pastors.

    by Alex on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:39 pm

  77. Alex #61 Now, you’re getting it—in figuring things out with this type of person.

    Don’t use normal reasoning pertaining to motives and schemes. They don’t think, nor do they behave within these paremeters. All you have to do is fip it (normal reasoning) and are then able to see things from their perspective. They take on the mirror image of their victim, thus come across as the (fake) victim instead.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm

  78. Julie Anne, Did your church have membership for individuals? CC has none other than maybe for their board members or staff.

    by Andrew on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm

  79. Andrew, #69

    “With the way CS blasted Alex from the pulpit, it occurred to me that maybe he was flipping the bill for this lawsuit. CS is responsible but supposedly he recently gave his powers away so I dunno.

    That, and what they just with through concerning the case in Idaho’s child abuse case, is what I was thinking. With the “new” restructuring going on and the now defunct, CCOF, they can just claim, “grace.” and move forward.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:50 pm

  80. In my mind, that would be a typical move that a company would make to counter any responsibility in order to avoid lawsuits and to lose profits. It’s called: business.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:52 pm

  81. Linda, Yep and when it blows up again in their face, I wonder what the next re-org will look like. Although CS set the precedent of having no authority, curious by what authority these new regional pastors are now operating under.

    by Andrew on Sep 19, 2012 at 2:54 pm

  82. Andrew – #78 re: if our church had church membership.

    I know that when our friend was asked to come on staff as Evangelism Coordinator, it was required that he officially become a member, so he and his wife took a crash course privately. I know membership was mentioned for the body, but there was not a whole lot of emphasis placed on it; additionally, no member classes were offered during the 2 years we attended.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 19, 2012 at 3:13 pm

  83. Alex-

    What affect if any, would the new “restructuring” of CC have on this lawsuit?
    Is there a protective mechanism in place?
    BTW–You are already talking like an attorney!
    What a way to gain on the job pre-acceptance to law school training!

    It was going thru my mind that perhaps the restructuring was in anticipation of this suit, but that would make the BG situation really important to CS.

    by Hannah on Sep 19, 2012 at 4:05 pm

  84. BTW-Someone posted today today on BG’s blog. A couple of days ago he mentioned some strange happenings at his school away from home. Did you catch that? really strange to mention that at the same time all this is going on. That s++ual abuse is “normal” occurrance (or words to that affect)-I foudn it strange in light of what is now going on. Why mention that now?

    Also, after reading the posts of the day…. I am so proud of everyone herre (especially Julie!!) who has taken a stand against unrighteousness. I feel a comaraderie I have never felt before in “church” from reading all the posts.
    We are a remnant…and though the road is real bumpy, God has given each of us a task to be his ambassadors…and it is a privelege.

    We all share a common experience…and we ought to be blessed to know that God finds us all worthy to fight the good fight! So to all the soldiers out there-those who lurking-you are not alone!

    by Hannah on Sep 19, 2012 at 4:14 pm

  85. Sorry Julie Anne!! (not Julie)

    by Hannah on Sep 19, 2012 at 4:15 pm

  86. Andrew @ 74 said,

    “Grateful, so in your situation when the pastor went AWOL, the church ceased to be a CC but somewhere along the line, the CC system went in and grabbed the assets (building, land, equipment, etc..). So in away, the “right of survivor ship” belongs to this massive CC system yet they have the audacity to say they are all 100% independent.”

    The church didn’t actually cease to be a CC.

    Back story:

    The pastor kept telling the church that he was being asked to speak at a church in Arizona, plus there was a trip out of the country and a cruise, as well. He was basically gone for several months.

    The house of cards caved when the pastor in Arizona flew to Colorado to show our church leaders the evidence he had on our pastor spending time with another woman and whatever else he told them. One thing was clear, the Arizona pastor did not ask our pastor to speak more than one time. Our pastor had been lying. He went so far as to send a video message to the congregation to say he’d be home at Christmas to preach.

    It was when the leaders discovered there had been no board for 3 years, that money was missing, that the pastor had filed for divorce during his leave but it was kept quiet, etc… that’s when other pastors got involved … some suspect they saw an opportunity.

    The now ex-pastor has been said to have complained that they forced him to give up the pastorate, instead of “showing him grace.” I guess he really thought the CC rules of independence would hold up for him. He’d gotten away with so much for so long, I think he thought he could just keep doing what he wanted to do.

    by Grateful on Sep 19, 2012 at 6:57 pm

  87. Grateful,

    On one hand I am thankful that someone intervened to call this bad pastor out but on the other hand it really appears to be a ruse when Calvary Chapel claims they are all 100% independent. This is where the congregation needs to step in and determine what is best for their local church. But Calvary Chapel will never allow that which is the problem since CC views any congregational authority as purely an American democratic idea and they seem to ignore all the scriptures that point to the entire congregation participating in various functions of which one is church discipline.

    by Andrew on Sep 20, 2012 at 11:47 am

  88. Grateful:

    What you just described is the problem with the “Moses” (unbiblical) model of CC leadership. This Castle Rock, CO pastor was not accountable to his people, in fact his church website used to describe how the Moses model was the most biblical method and every one else was wrong. You all had no say in anything and it showed.

    But did Geno and now the Horizon Pastor/Castle Rock Pastor, Dave Love, fix the leadership model at Castle Rock? Doubtful, same old method, different men.

    In case anyone didn’t notice Pastor G, who this thread is about, has a board consisting of pastors who DO NOT ATTEND, PARTICIPATE or LEAD anyone or anything at G’s church.

    People CC has some good churches but the leadership model is terribly flawed from the very founder.

    by Familiar on Sep 20, 2012 at 12:15 pm

  89. Andrew – RE:#87 – - This is where we ran into problems, too. We went through proper channels, attempting to e-mail, phone, even having a local pastor mediate. If there is not an authority structure set in place, a spiritually abusive pastor does not care what any other pastor tells them. The abusive pastor will say: you have no clue, you don’t know what I’m dealing with, this is not your business, you don’t have the right to interfere, etc. Keeping in mind that spiritually abusive pastors are so often narcissists, they will not back down on their own unless someone forces them to. That is the huge problem with independent churches. There can be good independent churches if the elders are doing their jobs, but so often elders become part of the inner circle and are yes-men and are part of the problem.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 20, 2012 at 2:19 pm

  90. Julie Ann Smith said:

    “Andrew – RE:#87 – – This is where we ran into problems, too. We went through proper channels, attempting to e-mail, phone, even having a local pastor mediate. If there is not an authority structure set in place, a spiritually abusive pastor does not care what any other pastor tells them. The abusive pastor will say: you have no clue, you don’t know what I’m dealing with, this is not your business, you don’t have the right to interfere, etc. Keeping in mind that spiritually abusive pastors are so often narcissists, they will not back down on their own unless someone forces them to. That is the huge problem with independent churches. There can be good independent churches if the elders are doing their jobs, but so often elders become part of the inner circle and are yes-men and are part of the problem.”

    Problem with this argument is that the Catholic Churches are not independent but tyet they have fostered some of the worse abuses in mankinds history even to this day. Organizational structure does not for one minute lessen the posssibility of abuse and in fact may even protect it more (see Penn State). I am so glad to be at a home fellowship, it’s quite simple you see your Pastor abusing the sheep you withdraw and then warn, trying to change the system is foolhearty at best, a WOLF does not change his spots.

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 20, 2012 at 2:58 pm

  91. Solomon #90 – you are absolutely right – there is no fool-proof system. We must always be on guard.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 20, 2012 at 3:12 pm

  92. ‘In case anyone didn’t notice Pastor G, who this thread is about, has a board consisting of pastors who DO NOT ATTEND, PARTICIPATE or LEAD anyone or anything at G’s church.”

    This is not unusual for CC. You can look it up using corporatewikipedia to find out owns and who is on the board/payroll/investors (?).

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 20, 2012 at 5:44 pm

  93. Linda,

    Re: Corporatewiki

    Very interesting how many “businesses” our Pastors own through the church.
    Never realized there is an office of “Director”. Did I miss that in the Bible?

    by Hannah on Sep 21, 2012 at 6:18 am

  94. LInda,

    Don’t you think the tithers ought ot get a “cut” or at least some kind of profit sharing through these businesses since it is our money they are investing with?

    Oh, I forgot..it is going towards investing in the Kingdom….

    by Hannah on Sep 21, 2012 at 6:21 am

  95. ‘In case anyone didn’t notice Pastor G, who this thread is about, has a board consisting of pastors who DO NOT ATTEND, PARTICIPATE or LEAD anyone or anything at G’s church.”

    Of course, this gives the appearance of accountability and oversight, but is a complete scam. These people “the board” are probably not approachable by congregants and how likely is it that they would believe a congregant over their personal friend. This is the same setup with another story I covered, Eagle Heights in LA, as well as what I’ve read with Sovereign Grace MInistries with CJ Mahaney, etc. In fact, in CJ Mahaney’s case, his friends are ones who endorse his books, he endorses their books, and they him to speak at their conferences (as recently as the Resolve conference with John MacArthur). No way are they going to bad-mouth their friend who brings them revenue.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 21, 2012 at 9:19 am

  96. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/victory-christian-center-rape_n_1903465.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing6%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D208841

    another rape case unreported, what is wrong with the church.

    by jlo on Sep 21, 2012 at 10:07 am

  97. Hannah said:;

    “Very interesting how many “businesses” our Pastors own through the church.
    Never realized there is an office of “Director”. Did I miss that in the Bible?”

    Or a Director of Marketing

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 21, 2012 at 10:11 am

  98. http://www.aol.com/video/bible-school-teacher-charged-with-26-counts-of-sex-abuse/517484335/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing6%7Cdl40%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D208348

    and another one. both in my news feeds this morning.

    by jlo on Sep 21, 2012 at 10:17 am

  99. Hannah, #94

    Funny, you should say that, because often I have thought how tithes and offerings given by the “spiritual” members of CC are not used for the body of Christ as it was in the N.T. church, or even the O.T. What more the very Scripture passage taught to us over and over to elicit these monies was made out to be that it was speaking us, when in truth it was speaking to the priesthood who had charge over these resources. God accused them of robbing Him, because they were putting “all” the tithes into the storehouse, so that there would be food in “His” house. Malachi 3:8 Malachi 3:9 . Oh heck, just read Malachi 2 and Malachi 3. Yet, somehow we allow ourselves to fall for this.

    Like I suggested, we are treated like customers, rather the church. CC corporate structure does not have accountability to us, because we don’t belong to the club or rather, company. We hold no stocks, bonds, or office. But are told to trust God in enabling them (our spiritual leaders) to make good decisions regarding the use of “our” tithes and offerings. What amazes me is listening and cross notes with others, we are, no matter what CC we have attended, thinking we were members, are all being given the same pat answers. As if CC Pastor have been trained to ward off further inquiry in such a way that really does intimidate or intimate that by asking questions, one is not trusting the Lord. But when you go to other churches, just to inquire about how they do things and they are totally open in answering your questions concerning many things, including how tithes and offerings are managed and spent, then think about CC way of doing thiings, quite honestly I feel as though I’m being scammed.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 12:09 pm

  100. “because they were NOT putting “all” the tithes into the storehouse, so that there would be food in “His” house.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 12:21 pm

  101. Hannah,

    Whose kingdom?

    I know that CC knows that I have been homeless. They also know that I had been attending since October 23, 1978. They have my email address, yet not once did they asked me if I needed food, or any other kind of concrete assistance.

    I remember way back in 1984 while in Grad school, being a single parent and on a very tight budget going to big CC and speaking to Romaine about this. He prayed with me and then bless me and told me to trust in the Lord to meet my needs. I was stunned by this, but nevertheless, too intimidated to question this. I mean, that was Romaine and who was I to think that CC was wrong in not helping out with just a bag of food? Just one bag —that’s all. As it turned out, I dropped out of Grad school and never asked CC for anything after that. Later on, I returned to Grad School, graduating with a 3.761 GPA, with 6 job offers, and not owing a dime for educational expenses. There were others that God brought along the way to encourage, to guide, to mentor, and to help me, but CC never took and interest or even inquired how I was doing. That is, except when I was involved in the Christian Research Institute, as Dr. Martin’s Executive Asst. During that time, doors that are closed to most were wide open for me to access. You learn alot when being in ministry. Hopefully, I am a mature Christain as a result.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 12:37 pm

  102. on second thought, hopefully I have become more discerining, wiser, and mature as a result of these life experiennces concerning church leadership and God’s Word.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 12:53 pm

  103. Andrew, I really like the way you write and express your opinions.

    We don’t always agree with the other, but this time—–right on! #87

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 1:12 pm

  104. Alex, Jlo #96

    How ironic.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 1:15 pm

  105. Linda, Thanks. I have grown to appreciate your story more and more as I read. We all have different backgrounds so of course we won’t see everything the same. The problem is CC wants everyone to view things exactly their way or the highway.

    by Andrew on Sep 21, 2012 at 2:38 pm

  106. Re: Familiar @88 said,

    “But did Geno and now the Horizon Pastor/Castle Rock Pastor, Dave Love, fix the leadership model at Castle Rock? Doubtful, same old method, different men.”

    It is the same old method, different men, unfortunately. Gino is making lots of money off his Moses Model, and has employed several family members to keep it in house. They will not challenge him, either. Dave Love has operated with the Moses Model for decades so why would he complicate his life now and add accountability and slower, more involved decision making processes? Too bad faster is not really better.

    Though it’s been presented to the congregation that they now have accountability built in, I’ve yet to see any proof of it. I’ve asked leaders if they’ve read the by-laws to see what they actually say and the answer is a consistent, “No.” I’ve explained that unless there are real changes to the by-laws that empower the elders and/or the board to actually fire a pastor, then there is no real enforceable accountability.

    Unless the board ceases to consist of close friends, or people you are interconnected with in the organization … and unless the board becomes people who actually know what’s going on and can bring objectivity and balance to the pastor, with the power to discipline the pastor … even remove him, then the board is powerless and merely an illusion of accountability to keep the congregation pacified.

    I’m still embarrassed and ashamed that I turned a blind eye to this lack of accountability, and obvious unbiblical nature of the Moses Model government style for so long. The desire for one’s church to be okay so your family can have a measure of peace is a driving force; however, if that means that we close our eyes while others are being abused (spiritually, emotionally, sexually, etc…,) while the pastor creatively steals the money, etc.. then we will regret our decision to just protect ourselves. It’s wrong. It’s not loving our neighbor. It’s not doing unto others as we’d have them do to us.

    Any chance I know you? Not that you want to reveal yourself.

    As usual, when we first started attending we asked the now ex-CC pastor if he was accountable to anyone? Instead of touting the superiority of the Moses Model, which he did on the church’s website (as you noted,) he explained he was accountable to his former CC pastor of Rocky Mountain Calvary Chapel -Brian Michaels- who was not in good standing with Calvary Chapel because of his unfaithfulness to his wife, that was presented as an “emotional affair.”

    Turns out what he called “accountable” involved his choosing to willingly submit to Michaels, which we all know is not what one does when they are in sin. And it presupposed that Michaels was fit to hold Abeyta accountable, which he was not. It doesn’t take a PhD to figure this one out.

    Good to know “Familiar” that you have seen the light!

    by Grateful on Sep 21, 2012 at 3:05 pm

  107. Re: Andrew @ 87 said,

    “On one hand I am thankful that someone intervened to call this bad pastor out but on the other hand it really appears to be a ruse when Calvary Chapel claims they are all 100% independent. This is where the congregation needs to step in …”

    The only way they were able to intervene, from what I know, is that they had Brian Abeyta over a barrel and were able to effectively force him out. Because he had operated without a board for 3 years, he was in violation of 501c3 non-profit laws of Colorado. They could have turned him in. That’s what I know, but who knows if they are now hiding other issues in return for his agreeing to “voluntarily” resign? Things are so secretive that it doesn’t encourage trust, rather distrust.

    What else we know is that Gino Geraci, Dave Love & Ed Taylor did NOT make Brian Abeyta repay the $200K he stole from the church in 2011, nor the $60k he ran up on the church’s credit card for his personal use (from what I’m told.) They only made him pay taxes on it and did NOT investigate any of the other years. They let him get away with stealing and not having to repent. The question is … WHY? Could it be they would want the same “grace” should their finances ever be viewed? Curious …?

    Note: If the finances were transparent, no one would wonder. I’ve heard many CC pastors make a case that if people knew how the finances were spent there would be many problems and fights over financial issues, though I find this a flawed and weak argument. Some financial issues would arise, but many churches throughout the ages have less issues by simply taking away the wondering and keeping the financial dealings in the open. There’s certainly much less stealing.

    by Grateful on Sep 21, 2012 at 3:27 pm

  108. But if we did know how tithes and offerings were being used, and had a voice in these matters, then Pastors would need to be specific on how much would be used for their expenses. Wouldn’t that then basically put the Pastor on the payroll instead of taking whatever, he felt he was entitled to without anyone to hold him to an account except, as CS states, to God alone? Wouldn’t that cause the whole Moses Model to collapse?

    I mean we might actually have a N.T. church going on then, huh? Wow, can you imagine how things would change all around. The likelihood of Pastors being truely called would increase and we would not just be, being taught in Word, but by deeds as well. In turn I think that there would be board members who are a part of the congregation and some would even be women. Servant leadership in the pulpit, as well as, in the home—hmmmm.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 4:39 pm

  109. Good points, Linda @ your 108

    by Grateful on Sep 21, 2012 at 6:14 pm

  110. LInda,

    In the 2 years I have been on this blog, there has been much discussion on lack of transparency Re: Finances.
    The lack of membership enables the Pastor to keep the tithers in the dark about where there $ is going.
    Yes, just trust the Lord…we are so gullible and naive. Why do we have to lose our brains? We are brainwashed. When woudl we EVER trust a %age of our hard earned $ to anyone?? Why do we not have the right to know?

    The first I had heard about the titrhe not being for today was from John Macarthur. I remember wanting to share this info with others. No one wanted to hear. Malachi was for Israel. If robbing God was for today, we also ought to abstain from pork and shellfish, and adhere to the other 315 laws. Poepl liek to bring up Melchizadek. Abram gave some of the spoils of the war to him. It wasn’t even his!! Also , when he became Abraham, he never gave again? So thats all we have to go on. We’ve said it before here. The CC Pastors think on the one hand they are Moses, or the Priests since the Priests recieved the tithes, yet the Levites could not own any land, and how many CC Pastors own their churches???
    A double standard and complete hogwash (no pun intended for the Kosher laws!), and we all fell for it!
    Giving to God has always been freewill.
    The tithe was not giving to God, it was the taxation system for Israel and thru it they distributed to the poor and needy, much like our Gov’t is already doing from our taxes.
    How any Pastor can teach the tithe really knowing the truth…I just dont get it.

    by Hannah on Sep 21, 2012 at 7:27 pm

  111. PS. I have a widowed mother. I need to take care of her before I give to anyone else. That is my responsibility. That’s what the Bible teaches both Old Testament and New. Yet the widows at the CC struggle on their SS check to tithe because the Pastor is not teaching the truth that THEY(the church) ought to be taking care of the Widows. Instead they teach the “widows coins” in John, misinterpreting it to mean that because the widow gave so much, that is what is expected of them. What Jesus said a few verses before was how the Temple was ROBBING the widows, and why did the widow give all she had? Because the Jewish leaders were taking advantage of them! And robbing them!! And perhaps making them believe they had to do this! (Just another way of looking at those verses.

    The Big CC’s have financial groups telling you to leave an inheritance to the church before your family. I remember my in-laws came to church(non-believers) and that is what they heard. Yes, you work all your life and you are not going to leave it to your kids…you are going to leave it to Pastor _____ because it is going to be invested in the Kingdom!! You will never know where it went and it most likely will not go to feed the poor and widowed, but you are giving it to the Lord!!!
    Sorry for the typo’s– along day!!

    by Hannah on Sep 21, 2012 at 7:36 pm

  112. Linda,

    34 years at the same church and you are going thru all this now?
    This is amazing.

    Jlo-Its good to see you here…
    That rape situation is appalling. I cannot imagine someone with the name Israel Shalom… and this crime… rape in the stairway of a church…so sad…

    by Hannah on Sep 21, 2012 at 7:43 pm

  113. Hannah, if you think this amazing, this will really blow you away—my dearly beloved has only been attending 2 years when I requested to speak to his pastor. Like I said before, othe than a couple of times, I wasn’t able to attend with him due to the acting he was doing and then him telling me that he didn’t want me to attend as he “didn’t want to fade any crap” in the event he wanted to look at a nice looking girl. I stayed home listening to the study online and then he would come spend the rest of the day with me.

    When all of a sudden he decided to take me out in public again, he told me that he told his men’s fellowship that it was because he wanted to find a church we could both go to. I confronted him about not telling them the truth. That he was supposed to be in treatment for his problem and prove to me that he would no longer betray me and our marriage, It was all a smokescreen. When I still would bail, the abuse escalated. Then I went to my pastors and they went to his pastor, who basically wrote it off and still would not meet with me individually. Not even with my pastor presence because my husband made the decision that I wasn’t to talk to anyone except to my pastor and if I was had anything to say to him or his pastor, I would need to have my pastor deliver the message. My pastor thought that my husband was very controlling and as guilty as they come. But my husband on the other hand was supposed be able to talk directly to anyone he so chose to do without my knowledge if he deemed fit. What he was doing, was turning the table on the whole situation, making it look as though I was the one that needed treatment and accountability instead. My husband is quite the charmer and I’m telling you if I wasn’t “there” I would have believed him myself. So, I know exactly what Alex has had to contend with in having truth and justice done in order to facilitate repentance and reconciliation. It really sucks when you are trying to knock down the walls that harmed you and you just know it is harming other as well.

    So, yeah they have huge male identity issues and are extremely over the top with how they disrespect woman, that is unless you become what they want you to be—-a fantasy that will say that they are all about that and then some. Has absolutely Zip to do with God’s Word. Hmmm 34 years, me and 2 years him. We been married a little over 10 years now.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 11:11 pm

  114. ‘”When I still would bail, ” Should be: When I still would NOT bail (on our marriage)

    Note: I didn’t know that was what he was trying to get me to do at this time, I just knew his behavior and demeanor towards rapidly changed. He would pick fights, trying to get me to go off or do something I think he would have done if someone had done the same thing to him. But I never did—not even once. I cried alot and when he would stand over me as I huddle in the closet, he would be raging and yelling at me, then he would take on the “fatherly like” attitude to see if I was ready to do what he wanted me to do. But I just kept crying and asking him why he was being so mean and viscious towards me. Most of the time, I had to ask him to leave because he was being so verbally, emotionally, and psychologically abusive. I would constantly ask him what in the world did God had with any of this.

    I just knew he wasn’t be truthful with me and I wasnted to know why, so I just waited and when he finally showed me, I then started telling others and asking them to get involved. They did, but his pastor was totally enabling him, saying he thought he was a good judge of character. Which meant to he was calling me a liar and being manipulated by my husband. Of course, I had no idea that he looked down on females until things unfolded. In all my life, personal and professionally, I had not run across anything like this. Have read and heard about it, but not experienced it up close and personal. But then realized as I attempted to get brought into the open just how much this mindset is perpetuate towards woman by the CC Pastors. Not all, but the ones that could have intervene did not, and those Non CC Pastors tried, but my husband was sheltered or protected and now going to become a Pastor???????????????????

    According to him and what I see as evident provided by his Church, he will soon be a CC Pastor. I’m sure everyone will just think he is very sweet and ever concern towards the lsot and those needing a shepherd. All because his pastor refused to hear the truth and disregard the evidence, as well as, refused to clue himself in by reading Lundy Bancrofts book, as Pastor Jeff’s letter to other Pastors strongly recommended.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 11:39 pm

  115. sorry;;;

    “But then realized as I attempted to get this out into the open just how much this mindset is perpetuated towards woman by the CC Pastors. Not all, but the ones that could have intervene did not, and those Non CC Pastors tried, but my husband had already insulated himself using his pastor and others from being held to an account and following through with what was needed in order to reconcile with me. Instead he made it out as if he was this poor husband who was trying to get his wife some help and she just wouldn’t submit.”

    Yup, that’s the way Narcissistically oriented and addicts works people. May have stop their drinking and drugging, but now found a perfect playground to exercise there most treasured and inexhaustible desire: power, control, and attention and obviously a ready source of money to fund their adventures. I know this sounds awful, but when you are standing where we are—–anything less than this is a bold face lie and living in la la land. It is pretty. It wasn’t fun, and it sure in the heck had nothing to do with the Lord that was supposed to be evident in all things, in word and in deed. Not by a long shot.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 21, 2012 at 11:51 pm

  116. Hannah, the point that can be made using Malachi is that what was gien was not being put into the storehouse to feed the people. And that really angered God.

    In N.T., no there was a tithe or an offering per se, like the O.T. however, you can that Jesus tell us to when giving, that we should not give with a grumbling heart, but whatever we give, to give according to what we have purposed in our hearts. Later, again in the N.T. the church would sell and buy and contribute to well-being of others in the church. So, there was a community fund, if you will among the believers. It just wasn’t based on the O.T. laws and Levitical per cent and other type of sacrifices made.

    Another example that would be closely related to Malachi was Annanias and Saphira. You know the story so I wrote go further. At the same time we have to realize that if we are going gather together, somebody has to pay the light bills and pick up the garbage.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 12:02 am

  117. It’s latea:

    “GIVEN was not being put into the storehouse to feed the people. And that really angered God.

    In N.T., no there was NOT a tithe or an offering

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 12:11 am

  118. So, bringing this all back home and into focus, it is important for Alex and his brothers, and his mother be able to get closure to the years that the locust have eaten and be restored to wholeness not just between themselves, but with those who did not and could done something so much different had they truely opened their eyes and their hearts to the the evidence presented before them.

    So, whether you be part of the pastoral staff or sitting in the pew, pray and ask God to help you to help this family to heal and for the body of Christ be what they should have been all along, not separated or counted as a commodity, but precious and so very valuable in the sight of the Lord, as well as, your own.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 12:17 am

  119. Hannah, not always with the same CC and until 12 years ago did not realize they were only “affiliated” although there was constant references to Papa Chuch. What he would say or how they would need to cross check with Big Calvary and so forth.

    Had not a clue until the stuff began unraveling with my husband that each was a corporation and that there was a lot of nepotism going on and that it was very male “rule” oriented. Even the jokes that were made during the men’s conferences were offensive towards the opposite gender. I’m like, this is not the CC that used to be, not the one I came to Cross in. Had completely evolved into something totally different. Just a lot hype, good music, and the typical crowd following that goes on with Jesus being preached and a lot of lusting and cheating going on between those that called themselves Christian. And saying , “I’m covered by the blood.” So it does matter how I sin, because all sin is the same.

    CC has lost its way and needs to humbled themselves and get their house in order.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 12:37 am

  120. “, moving and grooving with the music, with Jesus being preached, yet with people plainly lusting after one another, and cheating going on between those that called themselves Christian. And saying , “I’m covered by the blood.” So it does NOT matter how I sin, because all sin is the same. Once Saved Always Saved, pass the dish. Clink, Clink.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 12:42 am

  121. Linda,

    Not to gloss over so much of what you said regarding your husband and the Pastor…but this really jumped out for me

    @115 “May have stop their drinking and drugging, but now found a perfect playground to exercise there most treasured and inexhaustible desire: power, control, and attention and obviously a ready source of money to fund their adventures. I know this sounds awful, but when you are standing where we are—–anything less than this is a bold face lie and living in la la land.”

    I have been trying to put this into words for a long time and you said this well.

    As far as what you said about giving…giving is not the issue. The tithe and using that word is. What it represented. I believe the churches and the Pastors have to know what the tithe was and that what they are teaching abotu it is wrong.
    What I was trying to say is that fee=will gioving is one thing-giving to God is another.
    Free will giving to God is both in the OT and the NT.
    Tithing is an OT LAW and not for the church.

    Perhaps “church” was not supposed to be about lighting and air-conditioning a building. having 20 Pastors on a payroll-with each having at least maybe 2 secretaries… but serving Jesus through serving others.
    If your giving is going to paying utilities just to have aplace to meet and bring non-believers, and not grow the sheep to go out and make disciples, maybe we ought to re-think what “church” is.

    by Hannah on Sep 22, 2012 at 7:17 am

  122. Linda,

    I am in a rush as evident by my many spelling errors….but I really feel for your frustration in your situation. Just wanted you to know that I am praying for you.

    by Hannah on Sep 22, 2012 at 7:19 am

  123. “What I was trying to say is that fee=will gioving is one thing-giving to God is another.”

    Wow..better to write slow and proof read than have to backtrack your mistakes…
    What I meant to say was that giving to the government (the Tithe or taxation system) is one thing-giving to God is another.
    We can’t confuse the two.
    Israel was both a gov’t and a religious system. There was no speration as there is now.
    But the churches would have you believe that you are to give Uncle Sam a hefty check (% of your income)every year as well as given them 10%. And they want it off your gross too!! ALso, only those who owned land or cattle tithed. Did you know this? Jesus never tithed because he was a carpenter and exempt. You tithed off your INCREASE.

    If tithing is for today, then why are not the synagogues and the temples inforcing it to the Jewish people? Shouldn’t the Jewish people be tithing? One Pastor said to me “well, they charge a yearly fee”..but this is not based on their income as what they expect from the church. And the synagogues-even the Orthodox don’t tithe. They know what the tithe is and they are obseving the Sabbath, dietary laws, etc, but not the tithe.

    When you think about it , it is all a scam. Thats why it is so difficult to agree with it. You are agreeing with error and corruption.

    If you want, give 20, 30% of your income. Give generously. Give sacrifically. Give from your heart.

    This week, I was leaving a discount store and there was a man seated in front of the store in his wheelchair with 3 limbs missing holding a cup begging. At first I passed him and as I got to my car, I turned around and went back because i was convicted to give him something and I was curious about what happened. I had a brief conversation with him. He was a Vietnam Vet and he lost all 3 limbs in 1969 in some kind of a can bomb. He was describing it to me but I was not really paying attention because I was focuses on his mouth that was so dry and his dental issues that I am sure he was struggling with. My mind wandered. I had 2 20 dollar bills and a few singles. I gave him the singles and then walked away, remembered I had some tracts in my bag and walked back and gave them to him and talked a little about Jesus. I was convicted when I left that I should have given him the 20. Sometimes it is hard to know where and when to give. People would rather let the church decide. But I think there are enough people that God will bring our way to help, and we need to be generous. I have a business where I can give my services without charge and I do that a lot. The “Church” would call that an offering, not a tithe. Not the requirement of the 10%, even if these free services are more than 10% of your business. The tithe was always a part of the labor of your hands, NEVER money!! Who are they to say that this is not the case? If I was a farmer, and I gave 10% of my produce to the poor, that woudl be exactly what the tithe was for, so who is to say now you have to give hard, cold cash to them? Who made these rules we are under in the church? Why do we just accept them?

    Anyway, too many words…but if we are generous, God will always bring those we need to help. If I need to give my widowed mother $200.00 a month to purchase things she needs. -who is to say that this doesn’t count as giving to God when I am serving others?

    by Hannah on Sep 22, 2012 at 7:38 am

  124. Grateful:

    We may not know each other. By the time CC Castle Rock, CO got started I was already well aware of the problems with CCs having experienced the issues with other local CCs.

    You said this:

    “The desire for one’s church to be okay so your family can have a measure of peace is a driving force; however, if that means that we close our eyes while others are being abused (spiritually, emotionally, sexually, etc…,) while the pastor creatively steals the money, etc.. then we will regret our decision to just protect ourselves. It’s wrong. It’s not loving our neighbor. It’s not doing unto others as we’d have them do to us.”

    How true!

    Thanks!

    by Familiar on Sep 22, 2012 at 10:42 am

  125. Hannah,

    What I was speaking of was the money and goods given by believers to believers. It was not part of the Judaic governing system, nor of the synogogue. Annanias and Saphira was to sell the land like everyone else that had something and to bring it to Christian leadership to be redisburse among the believers to help them survive. Remember, there was alot of persecution increasingly building upon from all sides towards the “Christian” sect. Later when Paul was, I believe in Maceddonia, a collection was taken up for him to take back to the “Christian” church as believers were literally starving to death.

    These monies and goods were given had nothing to do with the taxes be collected by the Jewish tax collectors, then given to the Romans. Nor was it related in any way to the synogogue.

    In Judaic life, everything was considered to belong to God and given to the individual or people to take care of affairs concerning the operations of their affairs. So whatever a person had, it was considered to be yours, but always with the community in mind–theorectialy speaking, that is. But you had ownership of these things and it was up to you to follow the Judaic laws of commerce and giving.

    As for the monies and goods shared among the Christians, Jesus told them to share with one another. By doing this you were loving God and your brother and sister at the same time. Paul was teaching us that it all belong to God and it was up to us how we were going invest it. Either by helping others or buidling up our little next egg, so to speak. Which is not an unbiblical to do, but when you see someone in need and say God bless, be well, and have the resources to help, but do not then this is sin in God’s eyes. It is not loving others as you love yourself. It is not loving the Lord.

    I think a lot of people think that the Federal, State, and Local government have programs that are set up to help people out, therefore, it is not important to address this need within the churches. What they don’t know is that these programs set up by the government are funded by your tax dollars, but unless you meet certain criterias, you cannot get assistance. Also, for the homeless, there are beds for most on a first come, first serve basis and if you added up all the beds like this in the USA, it would only serve the need of 1% of !% of the homeless population. What more most funding is for people who have children, children and youth, and addicts. The only other type of housing is either hospitals or jail and prisons.

    So, it is vital that the churches have a heart that does use their monies and resources and talents to help each other in the body of Christ. And when it does not, then the body will become weak and sick and in greater need than the mission fields being developed.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 11:55 am

  126. What more, there are going to be expense in having people congregate and socialized in a designated location. These expenes are going to need to be paid if you are going to have clean and safe environment. Along with this, their is administrative cost to all the supplies need to implement various projects and programs. If you are going have full time clergy and staff, they need to be albe to make a living that is going to enable them to live comfortably whereas, they can be available to minister not just in the pulpit, but also on a day to day basis. Which means they need to be available to thier flock. Mission fields ought to be better supported by the church. No missionary sent out ought to have to sleep on the floor and without a refrigerator, simply because the support they were unable to raise does not meet these “luxuries.” Particularly, when monies are be used by the clergy to for less needed or required expenses. This recently came to my attention in viewing a newsletter of one of the CC I am acquainted with. I was appalled, knowing that this CC was more than able to provide beds for this pastor and his family and to purchase a refrigerator, but waited 2 years to do it. The refrigerator was a piece of crap and the beds was something you would get out of a garbage dump, yet this CC was boasting about how much they went out of their way to provide this. Of course the missionary and his wife was more than thankful for receiving them. Anyone would be—but to put them in a position, as if they were beggars receiving something that they should have had in the first place left me me with a bit of anger towards this type of neglect that is often a part of CC churches and the way they decide how to use the monies taken in.

    That brings us back to the storehouse concept in Malachi. We give offerings to help others in the church, to pay expenses, and to support the pastoral staff, but when it does not feed the people then we do rob God of that which we were given by Him in the first place.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 12:22 pm

  127. Hannah,

    “Tithing is an OT LAW and not for the church.”

    When God set up the tithes, He made it very clear that all that the Jews had was given by Him. He then told them to hold back the best and the first fruits to use it to honor him within the temple system. Part of this was to go directly to the priests and their family to feed, to clothes, and to house them. Even the animals sacrifices, a certain portion was set aside for the priest for food. Yes, it was a definite amount, that is 10%. But it was never considered taxation.

    Taxation came along whenever, Israel was being ruled by another empire or dynasty, such as the Roman empire. The taxes were collected by the Jews who were selected by the priest who was the go between the Romans and the Jewish Community. Did they get a kick back. Probably, as the bible speaks of unjust weights and how much a tax collector was hated. Did the priests get a kick back—well, what do you think,, seeing how this issue was addressed by the saducees and pharisees in their attempt to trap Jesus. The Jews did not like being ruled by another country and much less having their resources be taxed and thier money being used for Rome’s hold on them. But you know soldiers have to eat and horses need to be fed, and profits need to be made to justify being there in the first place with the Roman Government and Caeser.

    And so, the priests though they would trap Jesus if they thought they could get Him to speak against the Romans and turn the people away from Him. And so he told them, to render unto Caeser what was Caesa’sr and to God’s, God.

    Hannah, I agree tithing is a O.T. law but not a law in terms of how our government taxes us. Not by a long shot at all. I also agree that tithing is not mentioned in the N.T. However, the only difference between free-will giving and tithing is you decide what you can or cannot give and whatever it is that you decide, do it with without grumbling.

    In the N.T. times, the Jews were not only paying taxes to the Romans, they were practicing their faith by obeying the Laws given to Moses concerning keeping the synogogue life and its traditions in observance while also being used to support the levitical tribes, and to help one another in times of need.

    As a Christian, my earnings are split up between church, home, and governmental expenses (paid by a certain percentage of my earnings or the cost of the goods that I purchase, or the land or properties that I owned). But it all belongs to the Lord, so I bear a good witness by being diligent and responsible in being a good steward of my time, talents, skills, and earnings to honor the Lord in all that I do, including helping the church to support the needs that the body of Christ might have where I congregate. Does the government tax me on my, as you phrase it, “free will” offering. No, not unless I don’t claim it.

    I don’t think we it would be an accurate picture to mix up what we give to the government for the privelge of living here in the USA with what we also give to our churches. What more, what we give to each served 2 entirely different purpose. One is for the nation, state, and local community affairs and the other have to do with the body of Christ and its psiritual leadership. So, yes Hannah, the government sets certain percentages or rates for people depending upon different factors, while the church is no longer under the mosaic law in determing our giving, but nevertheless, does that mean we should not give at all? No, because in the Christian church established in the N.T. it was clear that a “free will offering” was very much a part of keeping the body of Christ alive and united. but when the clergy or priesthood misuses the monies given as a “free will” offering that is given unto the Lord for the benefit of His church body, then they are robbing the Lord.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 1:14 pm

  128. Hannah,

    I am in total agreement in how we choose to divy up our free will offerings. For me, I will not give a dime to churches that:

    1) enables women to have a deciding vote in the church affairs.
    2) fail to provide a finanical statement to its congregants
    3) expect their missionaries to come up with more than 20% of their support
    4) DO NOT HAVE A BENEVOLENT FUND/FOOD CLOSET

    In my profession, I use a sliding scale and I also do pro bono cases. Whatever monies I would have given to a church, I used that to help people God brings to my attention. I also donate to a couple of ministries.

    I will donate money to the church but I will stipulate that it be used for the Pastor’s library or new tires for the Pastor’s car or a couple of theatre tickets for a date night with their spouse.

    But I don’t hold myself to the 10%. I give as I am able and I am totally at peace with that one. What you shared, Hannah, I came to that realization a long time ago when I could not get food from the church when I desperately needed it. I then did an exhaustive study on tithes and offering like you have or are doing, and finally came to an understanding that it all belongs to the Lord and what He gives me is up to be to use in the way He places upon my heart and not under someone’s guilt trips, manipulations, or ignorance. Don’t you just love the scripture that tells us to search them to see what is true and right before the Lord!!!!!!

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 1:51 pm

  129. correction: “1) DOES NOT enables women to have a deciding vote in the church affairs.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm

  130. Well, Familiar, we have run in the same circles, you may just have been ahead of me. We were a little slow in really putting the pieces together, but in retrospect, it all makes sense now.

    We were in 3 CC’s with close ties to several more because of people we knew went on to lead other CC’s. The span of 20 years … we really were s…l…o…w….

    … and willfully blind, at times. We should have known better.

    by Grateful on Sep 22, 2012 at 2:58 pm

  131. The 501C-3 BUSINESS aspect of CCs just churns my stomach when I think of all the dubious financial issues I just glossed over without truly investigating to the extent possible over the 15 years I was part of their fellowships in NM and AZ. All the giving you thought was unto the Lord going toward someone else’s crooked agendas makes me angry of what’s been given towards their wrongful benefit– money, time, resources, and labor– all gone into the ethereal deep pockets of a misusing, abusive, and exploitative organization! Aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! >:€~

    by Andy G on Sep 22, 2012 at 3:28 pm

  132. LInda,

    Look up John Macarthurs teaching on the tithe.
    it was a taxation and it was 23% I believe.
    Not to debate the issue.
    I think his teaching on this is very historical and accurate

    by Hannah on Sep 22, 2012 at 9:37 pm

  133. Yes, the Priests were to be taken care of.
    But the Priests of the OT are not the Pastors of the NT.

    Lina “So, yes Hannah, the government sets certain percentages or rates for people depending upon different factors, while the church is no longer under the mosaic law in determing our giving, but nevertheless, does that mean we should not give at all? No”

    I dont’ t know if you are addressing this to me because you tagged my name with the question….please read over what I posted.

    by Hannah on Sep 22, 2012 at 9:43 pm

  134. Andy G- I hear you….
    Did the Priests of the OT live like some of the Pastors in the CC movement?
    Did they have the temple deed in their name? Worth tens of millions? Did they have several corporations?

    by Hannah on Sep 22, 2012 at 9:45 pm

  135. #133 No, I wasn’t. Just sharing in general.

    I don’t think the N.T. is telling us not to give to the church if we are so led to do.

    I think we get hung on how much we need or ought to give. And I think that is why Jesus addressed the issue of giving and not doing this, because the law, or out of resentment. He also told us to be good stewards and making wise decisions bases on loving Him and loving others as you love yourself.

    Rather than giving the “tithe” out of the Mosaic laws, then saying to one self, I’ve done this or I’ve done that, you are now free to give out of the fulness of your heart according to what the Holy Spirit leads you to so. So, what you give whether it be more or less than any other, is not the issue. The issue Jesus was making was a heart issue. Remember, the poor woman who gave all she had and those that had more gave far less, And it was about how much she or others gave, it was the concept that she gave from her heart, hwereas the other gave was was stipulated.

    Not grudgingly, or because you are mandated to do so, but because your heart compels you to for the sake of the Cross and for the body of Christ because of the love that He has instilled in your heart and the love that you able to express through an act of giving in terms of all that you are and all that you have.

    But in saying all of this, still we must deal with what and how these offerings are used and what system is in place to provide the entire church in accounting for how they are used. And as far as CC is concern, I think we are agree there huge issues that everyone should be concerned about, as well as, understanding that the way things are is indicative of other problems beginning at the very foundation called the Moses Model and those who run CC like a corporation instead. I think we can all agree that all offerings belong to the Lord and with that agreement we need to be mindful and hold the church to an account to make sure that all resources are used to build up the body of Christ and not just in Word only, but in concrete ways, as well as to preach the gospel as the Lord opens the doors to do so, but never at the expense of the neglecting the flock that is in the Pastor’s immediate care.

    And when that happens then the storehouse that belongs to the Lord is being robbed by the very people who are supposed to be overseers of the people or flock set under their care. Just because this came out of the O.T. does not mean it cannot be applied for today. The tithe, yes, but not the idea that it (free will/offering) all belongs to the Lord and it is our hearts that needs to understand that it is not ours to take what is set aside for the storehouse and to treat this storehouse as our own personal bank account. It belongs to the Lord to be used for His people and the needs they have to strengthen them and to enable them to be a witness by their love one towards another to the world who have yet to know him.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 23, 2012 at 12:50 am

  136. correction: “And when that DOES NOT happens then the storehouse

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 23, 2012 at 12:52 am

  137. Scripture reference used for the supporthing of Pastors and others ( see all of I Timothy 5 )

    I Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV

    17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[c] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

    1 Corinthian 9 (See verse 14, then 9)

    Please keep in mind that even the ministry of Jesus, followers gave of their resources to house, feed, and clothe Jesus and to pay for expenses. Judas was the accountant and treasurer of the the purse that was kept. Paul work as a tentmaker, part of the time, but when he was not working, others funded his expenses. In Acts, I believe (off the cuff) there were some that food servers while others were sent out to claim the good news.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 23, 2012 at 1:39 am

  138. Linda,

    I don’t want to take away fromt he purpose of this thread so I will post this and sicne it is long, Alex can delete it afterwards.

    John Macarthur:

    “Tithing,” are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, “Give 10% to the church,” you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never!

    It is referred to a couple of times, that’s all, as a historical fact: it talks about tithes being offered by Abraham to Aaron, you know, “in the loins of Abraham,” it says, Aaron paid tithes to Melchizedek—it is just an historical reference. It talks about the fact that Abraham gave tithes, also of a tenth of the heap, which he took in the battle with the kings. So it is only an historic reference. And then in the gospels it talks about the fact that the Jews tithed to their government, again a historical reference. No place in the entire New Testament is it ever advocated for us to give tithes, that is, for us to give 10% to the church. You say, “Well what was it in the Old Testament?” Every year a Jew had to give 10% of all of his crop and all of his produce, and all of whatever he had. He gave 10%, which was called the “Levite’s Tithe,” and what you have to understand is that the nation Israel was a theocracy, that is, it was ruled by God through priests. There were 24 different orders of priests, with thousands upon thousands of priests—they were the government officials, they were the Senate, the Congress, the whole thing, only they didn’t have to vote on anything—they just sought God and God told them what to do. So it was a theocracy ruled by God and that rule was disseminated through these people.

    Well, since they were the agents of the government, they had to be supported. Do you remember that the twelve tribes were each given land, but they split the tribe of Joseph in to two tribes: Ephriam and Manassah to make up twelve, because Levi was taken out, because Levi was the priestly tribe and they owned nothing. So they had to be supported by all the other tribes. They were given cities in the locations of the other tribal areas and people had to give money to support their livelihood—part of their sheep, part of their crop, and everything had to go to support Levi’s tribe, because they were the ones who represented God in the government.

    So when you gave your 10% each year you gave it to the government for the care of the country, the nation. Secondly, you gave another 10% every year, which was for the festivals and the religious convocations of the nation. In other words, all of the big things that were held in Jerusalem, all the things that had to be done to prepared for the feasts and so forth in Jerusalem, and all the holy days, and all the Sabbaths, and all the everything else that went with it.

    So you pay 10% to the Levites to support them as they operated in behalf of God in the government; you paid 10% to take care of the national festivals, which were many, many. Then you paid another 10% every third year, which went to the poor and the widows. So if you broke that down, you are at about 23.3% per year. Now what that was, was an income tax system. That was a system of taxation to fund the government and its religious activities and its welfare needs.

    So when people today say, “We want to tithe now like they did in the Old Testament,” they can’t stop at 10%, they got 23.3% to start with. In addition to that, you paid a half shekel temple tax every year, in addition to that, if you had a field, you had to harvest the field in a circle and leave the corners open for the poor. It was a profit-sharing plan. If you dropped a bail of hay off your wagon, on the way to the barn, you had to leave that for the poor. So you start adding that up and you are looking at about 25% of their income went to fund the national entity of the government. Now when you get into the New Testament, the Jews were still doing that, because they still had a nation, even though they were an occupied nation, they were still a nation. They were occupied by the Romans, but they weren’t run by the Romans. They had their own religious hierarchy, they had their own school systems, they had their own festivals, and all that stuff, and so they had to take care of that. They had their own priesthood; it all had to go on, that is why Jesus said, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s,” in other words, pay the Romans what they asked, and render to God the things that are God’s. So just to clarify that at the very beginning, when you are talking about a tithe, you are talking about the “taxation.” Now when you translate that over into our time, it is kind of interesting to me that the base tax system in our country is about 20%, you add sales tax to that and you probably get another 5%, we are on about the same level they were then–about 25% of our income goes out for taxation, if you are in the normal tax bracket and with normal deductions, unless you are really doing well, but then they get you in different ways, because the more money you have the more things you buy, the more things you buy, the higher sales tax you pay, so maybe it comes out even harder for people who have more. Nonetheless, that’s taxation. OK? Giving was always something different, always you gave whatever you wanted, like when they built the tabernacle and God said, “Let every man bring whatever he purposes in his heart; let him do it willingly, whatever he wants to give.” And they kept coming, bringing so much that finally they said, “Stop, don’t bring anymore–that’s enough.” So giving is always a “freewill,” it’s always an expression of love and appreciation–whatever you want to do.

    Now you come to 2 Corinthians, chapter eight, and you learn how the church gave. The church knew there was a need so the church gave. How did they give? Well, it wasn’t 10%, it says, “The churches in Macedonia, 2Cor 8:1, gave abundantly out of deep poverty. It says that their deep poverty abounded to the riches of their liberality.” Here was a very poor church in Macedonia, very poor, but they gave generously, out of their hearts liberally. In fact, verse three says, they gave beyond their ability. They gave more than they should have given–more then they could of given, and the reason they did that was in verse five, because they first gave themselves. I mean when you give yourself then everything you have belongs to the Lord. So, Paul is saying to the Corinthians, “If you want a lesson in giving, look at these people–out of deep poverty they gave everything they had.” In fact, they gave more then they should of, but they did that because they had already given themselves to the Lord. Now you have the key motive in giving; what is the right motive in giving? It is not to get anything. It is in that whole hearted abandonment, “they gave everything.”

    by Hannah on Sep 23, 2012 at 6:11 am

  139. Hannah,

    Definitely not in response to your questions. However, CC pastors would rather distract your attention away from the matter in hopes you’ll never consider approaching them about it. As soon as you become of mind to do so, they begin treating you as though you’re an unruly troublemaker and don’t hesitate to let their other staffers know you’ve been marked. It automatically creates an atmosphere in which you become silently and slyly shunned among congregants; their treatment of you in this fashion exists just beneath the “we’re a loving fellowship” facade they put up so that other unsuspecting congregants won’t become aware of it! Again it churns your stomach to think you were once a part of a nearly-Jonestown style organization right here at home in the States– thank God I didn’t die from drinking the Kool-Aid for as long as I did!

    by Andy G on Sep 23, 2012 at 8:45 am

  140. Hannah,

    MacArthur is saying anything different than what I’ve shared in principles or concepts.

    Thanks for sharing his article.

    He made one good point or rather made it clearer than what I did. That is, the Jews were a theocracy: otherwise meaning there was a not a separation of church and state. They were one and the same. That is why it is even more important for our churches to use the “free will” offerings for those in the body of Christ as well as for other expenses.

    by Linda Pappas on Sep 23, 2012 at 12:17 pm

  141. 501 C 3 prevents churches from using too much of the money gievn to help those in the fellowship. They are not allowed to give cash to congregants. Some still do anyways but they are really not allowed to.

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 24, 2012 at 9:39 am

  142. I give and I believe in it but I will never give to a 501 C 3 church so that the Pastor can go on vacations, drive a brand new car, put his kids through college and have his house on a hill

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 24, 2012 at 9:42 am

  143. I would rather give directly to those in need rather than funnel it through the 501 c 3 churches

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 24, 2012 at 9:49 am

  144. Solomon @ 143 – Amen. There are millions of people on the earth that need true help. They get God’s (my tithe) money before my local pastor pays his beachfront property mortgage.

    by Steve on Sep 24, 2012 at 10:09 am

  145. Amen to that Steve!!

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 24, 2012 at 10:39 am

  146. The church we attend (non-CC) takes an offering to help people in need in our midst: members, attendees, and some who walk in off the street asking for help. It’s taken once per month and 100% of it goes to help people in need.

    They set it up with an overseer. Each person fills out an application, though it’s a kind one, that is treats people with dignity, just clarifying the issues at had so they can present the right program they have for the right fit.

    1. If it’s a person who has made $300,000 a year, but lived to the edge of their income and now are unemployed but unable to see the big house so they can eat, they get some merciful help and a class on financial peace, not to mention proper job connections through businessmen in the church.

    2. If it’s a person who has little and just a slight bump in the road sends them under and unable to pay the electric bill or have gas to get to work, or pay the cell phone bill so they have a number when applying for a job, then they get help, generous I might add, and may be steered towards some job skill training, or job opportunities through businessmen in the church.

    There is a cap of help, but I think it’s $6,000 per family unit. They get financial counselling when deemed helpful, and introduced to various programs that may help them further to get on their feet.

    This church isn’t perfect, but I so appreciate how the regular offerings pay to administrate the separate giving to help those in need, without prejudice, and 100% of that fund is given away! How refreshing! NOTE: There is financial accountability for the leaders/administrators of the church.

    by Grateful on Sep 24, 2012 at 11:01 am

  147. The church we attend (non-CC) takes an offering to help people in need in our midst: members, attendees, and some who walk in off the street asking for help. It’s taken once per month and 100% of it goes to help people in need.

    They set it up with an overseer. Each person fills out an application, though it’s a kind one, that is treats people with dignity, just clarifying the issues at had so they can present the right program they have for the right fit.

    1. If it’s a person who has made $300,000 a year, but lived to the edge of their income and now are unemployed but unable to see the big house so they can eat, they get some merciful help and a class on financial peace, not to mention proper job connections through businessmen in the church.

    2. If it’s a person who has little and just a slight bump in the road sends them under and unable to pay the electric bill or have gas to get to work, or pay the cell phone bill so they have a number when applying for a job, then they get help, generous I might add, and may be steered towards some job skill training, or job opportunities through businessmen in the church.

    There is a cap of help, but I think it’s $6,000 per family unit. They get financial counselling when deemed helpful, and introduced to various programs that may help them further to get on their feet.

    This church isn’t perfect, but I so appreciate how the regular offerings pay to administrate the separate giving to help those in need, without prejudice, and 100% of that fund is given away! How refreshing! NOTE: There is financial accountability for the leaders/administrators of the church.

    by Grateful on Sep 24, 2012 at 11:01 am

  148. The Four Sqaure I went to had 100 percent financial accountability. Once a year we had a metting open to anyone in the church to attend and ask questions regarding stewardship of the finances, this was on wednesday night instead of the usual bible study. It was a very healthy process that would get heated at times as people asked the pastor very tough questions. I was shocked when I went to Calvary Chapel Montebello and they didn’t practice this.

    by Solomon Rodriguez on Sep 24, 2012 at 4:57 pm

  149. I am so sorry that this is happening. We plan to write about this at The Wartburg Watch.

    by Dee Parsons on Sep 25, 2012 at 9:11 am

  150. Thank you Dee, I look forward to reading it.

    by Not Alone on Sep 25, 2012 at 10:19 am

  151. Dee, very much appreciated. We need all the exposure and all the help we can get.

    These injustices and Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapels attempts to silence the victims is wrong and needs to be dealt with.

    It’s a microcosm of a larger problem within Calvary Chapel and some corners of Evangelicalism.

    by Alex on Sep 25, 2012 at 11:27 am

  152. Looks like failure to report child abuse is starting to come with penalties:

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j_VoudZBlWVg9vyTk0-S3WcRUpHg?docId=b15b3e318fe942bcbe159c61684bb0f3

    “The first American bishop criminally charged in the clergy sex abuse scandal was found guilty Thursday [9/6/12] of a misdemeanor count of failing to report suspected child abuse, a conviction that extends the struggle of Roman Catholic leaders to restore trust in the church,” according to the Associated Press.

    by Steve on Sep 26, 2012 at 9:58 am

  153. Steve – Thanks for that link. It’s perfect for a blog post I’m working on. It’s about time this is happening.

    by Julie Anne Smith on Sep 26, 2012 at 2:23 pm

  154. Outstanding post, I think blog owners should larn a lot from this web blog its very user pleasant. “You don’t have to deserve your mother’s love. You have to deserve your father’s.” by Robert Frost.

    by Ollie Mas on Jan 29, 2013 at 6:17 am

  155. [...] Sadly, in this account,  the story gets more complicated and very messy.   Paul shares the extremely personal and painful experience of being sexually abused by his father  in this article: [...]

    by Calvary Chapel Pastor Pastor Bob Grenier: Stories of Abuse As Told by His Children | Spiritual Sounding Board on Mar 2, 2013 at 9:37 am

  156. I’m shocked at these allegations being made in this venue. What I’m most amazed about is where is the forgiveness that was taught to you in Christ. No matter if these allegations or true or not why haven’t you trust God to bring judgement in this situation. You said in some of your allegations that you heard. So now you are spreading rumor. Listen if you are hurt like you claim, then why not go to God instead of man. Seems like a vendetta. Let God be the judger of facts. I wish most of all you begin to pray for yourself that you may receive forgiveness for the venom that you are spitting. This not the forum for this type of action! Christ died for all of us even you and your earthly father. So if Christ has forgiven you why can’t you forgive him. The first one without sin cast a stone.

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 3, 2013 at 2:03 pm

  157. Norrris Lee, would you give that same advice to Bob Grenier and Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel? They both sue folks (even though the bible says “simply” that they shouldn’t, but they have loopholes and stuff).

    Should they take your advice and “leave it to the Lord”? Should they “let God judge!” or should they sue the hell out of folks? Is that a vendetta?

    Chuck Smith sued Mike Kessler for a ton of money, millions. BG is suing me for speaking out publicly and not hiding our family issues, Jon Courson is threatening to sue Laurie Thorson…seems a bit of a contradiction if you are defender of CC. Where’s your outrage for what they are doing?

    by Alex on Apr 3, 2013 at 3:27 pm

  158. Re: Norris Lee @156,

    “… pray for yourself that you may receive forgiveness for the venom that you are spitting. …The first one without sin cast a stone.”

    Does this apply to you, as well? or are you without sin?

    by Grateful on Apr 3, 2013 at 3:58 pm

  159. I have not yet read bob side nor am I on his side. I have only read the son’s report of what he believe to be the truth. It does not matter if he sues you first, they should have sought God on the matter. He is the Lord, He rules in the kingdom of man. Just because you get sued does not give you the right to spit this type of venom across the internet. When we say we trust in God we allow Him the time to sort out this type of action against us. What’s wrong with Christian today is we apply the world principal to what we thank is right. No matter what allow God to vindicate you. With mush prayer and trust in God he will never let you be ashamed. Love in Christ your brother lee.

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 3, 2013 at 4:23 pm

  160. Dear grateful, I don’t want to offend you in anyway, nor am I trying to prove a point. What I am saying is Christian today need to start trusting God in whom they say they believe. Whether Chuck, bob or anyone else for that matter is being sued then take it to the court. Don’t try to win by popularity. The truth will stand no matter what and your character will shine like the noonday sun. God will triumph when you allow Him to do it according to His will. If I offended you I apologize with the utmost sincerity. always your brother in Christ.

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 3, 2013 at 4:45 pm

  161. I pray that Norris will just let God handle his issues with us and that the venom he is spitting will convict him of the hypocrisy he is so blatantly exhibiting here.

    Judging for judging? Pointing out how wrong we are for pointing out the wrongs of Bob. It’s holding a mirror up to a mirror. Why are you any better?

    by not alone on Apr 3, 2013 at 5:00 pm

  162. Dear not alone, I attended Calvary Chapel for the first time this past Sunday. Someone told me to investigate some things on this website. I did. I am not judging anyone, what I am saying is why continue to hurt more people. Why not let God sort out this matter. Truly trust God and stand on His word and be vindicated. If Christian today would start to trust God man what a difference it would make. I’m not going to judge you or Bob, I will leave that for God. I’m just saying don’t use this vehicle for this type of format, because it can hurt others who are trying to get to know the Lord. When and if God vindicate you and others then let your voices be heard, however going tit for tat is only hurting others. Can’t see anyone winning there.

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 3, 2013 at 5:51 pm

  163. Norris, it’s not about winning. There is no winning. There is only telling the truth. Please read more articles here and you will understand the biblical mandate to warn others. What you are saying is wrong. God gives us a choice, some read the Word and take away what you are trying to proclaim as a mandate but it’s wrong and foolish. Even the apostle Paul warned of a fellow believer who did him wrong. There are many many examples on how we are to judge those inside the faith. Only an uncaring person would allow his brother to attend a church where the pastor is a pedophile.

    by not alone on Apr 3, 2013 at 11:45 pm

  164. Norrris left a similar comment at my blog today, too, on Tina’s story

    I get kind of grumpy when reading comments where people defend an abuser. Just sayin’

    by Julie Anne on Apr 4, 2013 at 12:20 am

  165. Norris,

    How do you think God exposes the truth, bring about justice, repentance, restitution, and reconciliation? By the Godly and the ungodly. To remain silent on these things is an offense against our Lord.

    I understand you do not feel and think that this forum should be used as it causes those who are seeking or growing in the Lord to be steered away from attending a church. Are you aware of the mandates that Scripture teaches that we are to follow in holding to an account those who perpetrate abuse and corruption in the church. Are you aware that Scripture tells us that if we remain silent we share in these things, as if we oursleves committed them?

    I understand that you felt led to call us out concerning the issues of abuse for the reasons you stated. However, is it possible that what you believe is scriptural is more along the lines of what you are being told by your pastor and others who are in leadership roles within your church. For if you knew Scripture, you would know this idea of yours of “just let God” handle it is half baked and totally discounts our responsibility of warning others and to seek support in holding those to an account through the much larger body of believers.

    We have done this and you, being part of the body of Christ now choose to stick your head in the sand, rather than to stand up and be counted to speak out against corruption and abuse in the church. But rather you choose to chastise us for speaking the truth and for warning others, while enabling many to find refuge and comfort in knowing that they are not alone and that we, as Christians must speak up and not be silent or silenced by such as yourself that support this type of spiritual abuse. Or do you not know what spiritual abuse is? You have much to learn and most of it appears to have to do with speaking too hasty without adequate knowledge and understanding of scripture pertaining to the corruption, abuses, and oppressive tactics used to cover up these things.

    Paul told us to expose the evil. He told us to get rid of the leaven and the corruption in the church.

    Norris, one other thought. You say you are concerned about those who might be turned away from God due to the comments made on this site. This reminds me of the idea, that if we air our dirty laundry, then people won’t want to be around us. So just keep up the appearance that all is well, and whatever we do, we just keep that under our hats. That, my friend is ever so dysfuctional and leads to more corruption and abuse like that which you have read regarding Alex and others on this site. Are you not concerned about these Norris or are you more concern about appearances. In this case, you will feel quite comfortable within the walls of CCCM and affiliates. But if things go awry for you, you know where to find a body of believers that happen to think that your well being is far more important that hiding and covering up that of those who abuses and corrupts.

    by Uriahisalveandwell on Apr 4, 2013 at 1:10 am

  166. Not sure what happened to my comment, but am submitting again.

    Norris, you stated the following:

    “I’m shocked at these allegations being made in this venue. What I’m most amazed about is where is the forgiveness that was taught to you in Christ. No matter if these allegations or true or not why haven’t you trust God to bring judgement in this situation. You said in some of your allegations that you heard. So now you are spreading rumor. Listen if you are hurt like you claim, then why not go to God instead of man. Seems like a vendetta. Let God be the judger of facts. I wish most of all you begin to pray for yourself that you may receive forgiveness for the venom that you are spitting. This not the forum for this type of action! Christ died for all of us even you and your earthly father. So if Christ has forgiven you why can’t you forgive him. The first one without sin cast a stone.”

    1) How were you saved? Was it not through forgiveness as a result of repenting?
    2) What makes you think that these things have not been bathed in tears and prayers?
    3) Are you basing your comments on this one thread?
    4) The people who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery wanted to condemn her. Jesus wanted to convict her and what did He say? Go and sin no more. He confronted her and then ask who is there to condemn her, Condemnation and conviction are two entirely different animals. The first ends life, the second enables the heart to be changed so that the behavior does not continue. Those who were wanting to cast stones had an ulterior motive and that was to trap Jesus. He knew this and He convicted them as well, by saying thier hearts were not right in using this woman to get to Him.
    5) We are to judge all things within the church. God will judge those things outside of the church. 1 Corinthians 5:5-6:9
    6) To say that we are full of venom, that we are being vindictive, that we need to repent. Base on what do you say these things? On who opinion are you stating them, those who are attempting to cover up these wrongs or a rash judgment on your part?
    7) Casting stones has to do with those who have hidden agendas and like to trap people into not saying things against those with the greatest sin. That is, deception, corruption, and pharisaical hypocrisy. These are those who would use the rest of the congregation to persecute those who are in need of healing as a result of being fronted off in order to not being exposed themselves.

    Without repentance, there is no forgiveness. We are to forgive as our Father has forgiven us. If a brother or sister refuses to repent, then what Norris. Are we to even eat with such a one or are we to warn the body of Christ and have nothing to do with such a one?

    Norris, please know that great pain was taken by each of us to speak the truth and taking great pain in following Matthew, chapter 18. And the common pattern among the leadership is such that led each of us to take the next step and to make these things known through this blogsite.

    Quite frankly, on a more personal note, I am appalled towards anyone that would tell an abused person to forgive a person without seeing the fruits of repentance. But even more so to tell an abuse person to just let God handle it rather than to speak the truth and have this person held to an account, when this is exactly what an abusive pastor and church system will do in order to silence their victims. By the way, this is the number one tactic that an abuser will use and count on in order to continue to perpetrate the abuse upon their victims, while seducing and grooming others in the process.

    Spiritual abuse contains all the elements that is found in domestic violence by the way. it can be direct or it can be ever so subtle. Either way, it is abuse and it needs to be brought out in the light, confronted, and stopped. That is, if you really cares about the babes in Christ, and those whom have been harmed.

    by Uriahisalveandwell on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:15 am

  167. Dear fellow believers, I come before you in the spirit of love and understanding. As I have read your thoughts, I feel the sincerity in your hearts. Yes I do understand the scripture. My only complaint is there’s has been no adjudication in this matter. Until then everything is up in the air. I just think that this forum is not the vehicle for this fight. I’ve suffered many trials, tribulations and troubles. I have been taught to forgive (1peter 4:12-16) no matter what, yes they are step we should take so others don’t fall in the same trap. But to hurl allegations after allegations seems to be fruitless. Why not take my evidence before the authority and allow them the necessary time to adjudicate this matter. Therefore giving God the glory when He delivers you from this trial. There are always two side to a story. However I’m not familiar with Pastor Bob side. I was only speaking to the fact that you don’t have to win this in this forum. Why have a messy situation. When and if God delivers you then you can speak with authority. That is called waiting on Him. To get in a yelling match only brings you down to the level of your adversary. God always defends the truth (Deu 32:4) Believe me when I say this Pastor Bob, you or others will not elude the judgement of God in this matter. He alone will have the last word. I want to apologize if I offended anyone for that was not my intention. I have a love for the body of Christ and I’m happy to be in this dialect with you. Love bro. Lee truly yours in-Christ.

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:57 pm

  168. Norris,
    Adjudication belongs in the church and not in the secular courts for this. Unfortunately Chuck Smith has shirked his responsibilities. This blog is reaching the universal church with Christians and I think there is already an adjudication at least from a scriptural point of view that taking a brother to secular court is simply wrong and not warning others of danger is also wrong. I do appreciate your concern though and agree we need to take this to the Lord Almighty.

    by Andrew on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:12 pm

  169. Hello Brother Andrew, Tell me what Church you are going to and I will be there to talk directly to you this Sunday. In-Christ Bro. Lee

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:19 pm

  170. Brother Lee, I truly appreciate it but don’t think we have anything really to talk about. No offense but you need to go to the church God has called you to and not mine. Regarding the CC church system though, no matter how many times they will tell you they are 100% independent, they simply are not. This is a lie and people need to be warned.

    by Andrew on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:28 pm

  171. God bless you brother Andrew. God Speed

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:01 pm

  172. Sniff sniff? I don’t know why I’m spending time on this guy, but he really ticked me off.

    On the Jezeblog he wrote:
    “Dear brother’s and sister’s. My apologies to those who I may have offended. I spoke out of line not knowing all the facts. I was addressing the fact that venom was being spued out all over the internet without adjudication. There’s been in history all kind of liars. So why not wait on God to avenge you. Christ was lied on, cheated, betrayed, accused and disrespected. However He left all judgement to His Father. The final word belongs to God the Father. Why not present your evidence and wait on the answer from God, in His time He will avenge you clearly. To me it just seem a better way to get your point across than to fall to the step of your adversary. To put statement like I heard. and then put them on the internet as facts seem to be erroneous. God said He will use all things to work to the good for those who love Him. Even this. Although there is a lot of hurt and pain associated with this issue. Don’t let that rise to the top, allow Christ love to come shining through. That is when God can receive the glory. I’m no expert on this situation, nor do I claim to be. However I’m always suppose to exhibit the love of Christ. I also would love to meet all of you in church. Tell me where to go. Love yours truly in-Christ Bro.Lee”

    Mr. Lee was informed of the pedophilia claims, apologized for speaking without knowing the facts, but then continued lecturing “Let God judge”??? Dude, that’s just not how God set up church discipline and accountability. And we’re talking criminal stuff here — you should be more disgusted by the MANY witnesses (some were mandated reporters) who did nothing to protect these victims. Jesus’ words about those who cause little ones to stumble were not “Make him a pastor and let him sue the little lambs. Oh, and by the way lambs, don’t say anything to make him look baaaaaad…”

    And Norris has asked twice now where people here go to church. Sets off my creep-o-meter.

    by i heart sheck on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:36 pm

  173. I heart sheck – lol @ “Jezeblog”!!!

    Anyway, I just came here after responding to him on my “Jezeblog” and now after reading his comment 3 times, I realized I forgot to address a key point.

    Norrris says: “My apologies to those who I may have offended.” and then goes on to basically restate what he said before – - “don’t take your negative pastor issues to the internet, let God take care of them,” essentially reoffending those whom he had originally offended.

    Mr. Norrris Lee: Your apology is a fraud. If it was a genuine apology, you would not reoffend. I heart sheck, your creep-o-meter needs no calibration. It is in good working order.

    by Julie Anne on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:02 pm

  174. Dear sister in Christ. That is my point people hiding behind screens. My real name is nooris lee and I love Jesus Christ of scripture and I will not hide behind this screen. My apology was sincere. I have no axe to grind here, nor will I stoop to your level in calling you any names. I will be at calvary chapel with my wife and two kids. Come there and tell me I’m creepy. God bless signing off for life.

    by Norrris Lee on Apr 4, 2013 at 7:04 pm

  175. Sorry guys, “Norris Lee” is WhoBob the Liar, Alex’s personal troll. He takes joy in disguising himself as a believer to condemn others using his best Christianese. He is a sick liar, worse then Bob and Chuck BGBC, IMO. He emulates the con of his hero, Bob, in the only place he can get away with it, on the net. He drops these quasi spiritual drive bys to impress his true lord, the father of lies.

    He is right about one thing, God will deal with these men. Accept men like these don’t care what God does to them it seems, because they don’t fear the consequences of their sick games.

    May His judgement come soon and His punishment be merciful for these men of little character and honor.

    by not alone on Apr 7, 2013 at 6:04 am

  176. Not Alone,

    Yesterday as I was reading my Bible, I had opened it up in Ezekial and started reading chapter 34. I’m totally into it and found myself saying, “Is this not like what is happening now, as it did in the dayes of old when God spoke to the this prophet. And is this not a prophecy for the Jews, but also can be applied to the churches today. The first sixteen verses has to do with shepherds and the rest of this chapter has to do with the flock.

    I thought and ask the Lord, “Do they not hear Lord, do they not see or do they think your word does not apply to them.

    Good to know about this predator, Not Alone. These types feed off the pain of others to feel alive. Inside they are so empty and in need of that which they will not find doing what they do. They just get worse until they literally become swallowed by their own toxicity.

    by Uriahisaliveandwell on Apr 7, 2013 at 7:34 am

  177. Uriah- You are right. I could not have heard anything from Mormonism. But I know on his site I heard a Pastor in the early 1900′s on audio, maybe JW background. I will think more about it and try and figure out what it related to. Should do more homework next time :)

    by Hannah on Apr 7, 2013 at 8:13 am

  178. [...] It is fair and right to question these things, especially when they involve cases like abuse. [...]

    by The “Do Not Touch The Lord’s Anointed” Lie | The Last Hiker on May 25, 2013 at 4:51 pm

  179. It is impossible to address issues in the CC movement. It is not open to correction. The best thing is to align yourself with a church that operates well and is run by a group of elders, preferably allowing for congregational input and participation. The CC will continue to experience allegations and problems with their churches until they change their approach to leadership. TLeadership is at the center of all that is wrong with Calvary Chapel. Ironically, one-person rule was their main distinctive from the start. They imagined it to be something wonderful. It was in fact their very curse!

    by Jon on Nov 13, 2013 at 2:47 am

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Let me be very upfront…this blog is not primarily about healing…at least my participation anyway. I am not a pastor and do not possess the gift to help those who have been hurt by the Church. I have other gifts and am exercising those as I feel led. If you want help in healing go […]more →

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