Sep 072011
 

Chuck Smith, founder and leader of Calvary Chapel.

UPDATE [One of the main reasons I've clarified some "possible" scenarios is due to my lengthy discussions with Gary Ruff of Calvary Chapel Sun Valley Foothills over a year-and-a-half ago. Gary Ruff was talking to me on behalf of Bob Grenier's out-of-town Board that also consisted of David Rosales of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley and Raul Ries of Calvary Chapel Golden Springs. David was out of town at the time and Raul is Gary's brother-in-law and Gary was passing on the info to Raul and David. Gary tried the angles I present below giving, in essence, the whole "We all have skeletons in our closet" speech and arguing that I and the others are sinners to and he continued to turn the discussion around to challenging and attacking the Victims rather than being honest about what he saw first-hand and rather than focusing on Bob Grenier and the many allegations of abuse and corruption. So, Chuck can blame his guys, the 3 R's (Ruff, Rosales and Ries) for the skepticism...that and the huge pile of testimonies I have of people from all over the country who have had similar experiences when bringing accusations against a Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor.]

The process of dealing with Bob Grenier started nearly seven years ago…privately, per Matthew 18.

Rather than copping to his sin and taking responsibility for his actions, Bob reframed the sin, called it different names, minimized it, rationalized it, shifted blame and by the time he was done with it…it wasn’t sin, it wasn’t ongoing and there was really nothing he needed to confess and repent of.

Wrong.

A metaphor is a husband committing adultery and then saying, “I have  a lust problem”…and then never copping to adultery and the specifics of his actions…but just saying he lusted, it was no big deal, get over it, it’s a settled issue, I repented….meanwhile the husband keeps having sex with other women, watching pornography etc…all the while preaching in good standing from a Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa approved Pulpit.

That is what Bob Grenier has done and is doing.

Bob committed Felony Child Abuse, as defined by the Governing Authority (Romans 13:1). Clear-cut, state-defined child abuse, many many many many times over. Bob still treats his family terribly to this day by evidence of him separating children from their mother and grandchildren from their grandmother, all because Bob won’t own his sin and lying and come clean.

This first meeting with Chuck Smith will deal directly with Bob Grenier and his Child Abuse, the molestation allegation by his blood son Paul Grenier and the many many wrongs that others have reported over the many years at Calvary Chapel Visalia.

One thing I will make very clear from the onset: this meeting is NOT about me, my brothers or the many others who are reporting abuses and lying by Bob Grenier.

This meeting is about Bob. This meeting is about Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel endorsing Bob despite the IRON CLAD corroboration that he is a liar and a Felony Child Abuser, while a full endorsed Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel pastor, and an alleged Child Molester…and so many other very bad things…to this very moment.

Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel can (wrongly) assume that every one of us are unsaved attackers from the devil…it would be wrong, but hey, have at it. Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t mean we’re ALL lying and there’s some Grand Conspiracy over 30+ years against poor old Bob the prophet-victim.

If Chuck Smith and surrogates try to take the “attack the victims” / “make this about the victims” route, it will go very poorly for them. If Chuck wants to have a Sin Contest, I’ve got a freaking PILE of really really bad stuff with names and specifics of a long list of Calvary Chapel pastors, Calvary Chapel churches, specific situations, big names, etc etc etc.

The Sin Contest is not a wise move if CC wants to have it. So much adultery, molestation, law breaking, lying, cover up, etc etc in the CC Camp. If this is about who has the least amount of Sin, CC’s gonna lose that one.

I’m not perfect, neither are my brothers, neither are all those bringing testimony against Bob. News flash, Chuck ain’t perfect, Chuck’s kids ain’t perfect, Chuck’s anointed Calvary Chapel pastors ain’t perfect and Bob Grenier sure as hell (ear muffs Rob Bell) ain’t perfect either.

Doesn’t mean that a MOUNTAIN of people with the same stories over and over aren’t telling the truth. Plus, there is Smoking Gun testimony that is IRREFUTABLE that Bob Grenier is a Felony Child Abuser and is lying. Game over on that one.

I will then present the “evidence” and testimonies to Chuck Smith and his surrogates.

I’ll start with the BOMBSHELL and work my way down the list.

It clearly establishes Bob Grenier is a lying, unrepentant Felony Child Abuser…with a Dove.

I’ll address Paul Grenier’s Molestation Allegations against Bob.

Then, I’ll transition into the pile of testimonies about what a jerk Bob has been to so many, and how Bob has crossed very big lines, some potentially criminally and/or civilly actionable. These are FIRST-PERSON direct testimonies and there are a lot of them.

Chuck Smith will then have a choice to make.

If Bob Grenier won’t cop to the sin and remains in stubborn lying unrepentance, 1 Timothy 5:19-22 applies…and Chuck can apply it by yanking Bob’s fully owned / licensed by Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa name and dove logo.

That is a public rebuke in my book. Disaffiliate the lying S.O.B. (sorry Nana, you were a good woman…and even you couldn’t stand your jerk son Bob).

If Bob Grenier, by some MIRACLE from God Himself, cops to his lying and sins, then it needs to be made public, Bob needs to find a way to make amends/restitution, etc and “try” to reconcile and submit himself to some sort of Calvary Chapel Restoration Process. Bob should NEVER be allowed around children under any circumstance. He’s lost that.

Chuck Smith can do the right thing and the smart thing by dealing with Bob.

Here’s how it turns into a net positive:

Chuck takes responsibility, yanks the Dove, like he’s done over far less like going Calvinist, going Emergent, not teaching in a style that was deemed CC, prostitution solicitation, etc etc. I have a pile of specific examples, names of pastors, names of Calvary Chapel’s etc who have had Dove Yankage over far less than Child Abusing, Molestation Allegations, Corruption, Beating the Sheep, Crossing Serious lines in Counseling, Not Reporting Child Molestation, etc etc etc.

If Chuck doesn’t yank Bob’s Dove, all of these many examples will come out big time…and Chuck can explain why some Doves get Yanked and some don’t and why he has chosen to continue to fully endorse an IRREFUTABLE Felony Child Abuser and Alleged Child Molester.

You’d think the recent Dino Cardelli molestation conviction and tragedy…and the current Lawsuit Chuck is fighting regarding four boys getting sexually molested by a Calvary Chapel agent who leadership knew had issues with pedophilia, would be motivation enough to do the right thing and deal with Bob Grenier.

It would certainly send a HUGE message of negligence and irresponsibility and prideful arrogance and wrongness to back Bob, despite Smoking Gun evidence.

If Chuck does the right thing, it sends a clear message that this kind of behavior is NOT to be tolerated and counted among Calvary Chapel pastors, employs, agents etc. It sends a message that Papa Chuck is not happy about lying Child Abusing pastors who tarnish his name and the name of Calvary Chapel. I don’t think Chuck likes being lied to and I don’t think he likes the heat Bob Grenier has brought upon him and the other Calvary Chapel pastors.

In the next meeting, Chuck will have the opportunity to hear Common Sense Reforms recommended by leading Child Abuse Advocate Kelly Clark of Portland, Oregon.

Kelly has helped a ton of child abuse victims and has helped Institutions who create Positions of Trust in our Society (of which the animal called the “Calvary Chapel Pastor”, employ, and/or agent is one)…to create a Protocol with really good checks and balances and common sense Best Practices to help REDUCE the chances of a child getting hurt/molested etc in a Church environment.

Nothing will stop ALL abuses. However, there are proven things, that if Chuck Smith is pro-active and voluntarily makes these simple things so…System-wide…via the Affiliation Agreement….will help reduce the chance of abuses.

And, doing all Calvary Chapel can, and LISTENING to the experts in this field…and implementing this easy, common sense stuff…is all I and many others want.

Chuck Smith: Set a new tone before you croak. Do the right thing. Be pro-active. This can turn into a positive story very quickly…and making much needed Reforms is NOT an admission of guilt or liability…it’s a step in Good Faith that shows you care about kids and you are against the bad guys doing bad things.

Whether, Chuck (and your surrogates) you like it or not…whether you admit liability and responsibility or not, doesn’t mean a thing. The Pope in Rome didn’t “admit liability”…and he still lost big time and forked over millions of dollars and has had to make sweeping changes in how the RCC does things.

Do the right thing. Do the smart thing. Listen.

 Posted by at 11:56 am

  54 Responses to “Meeting with Chuck Smith: Here’s what’s coming”

  1. It really boils down to this:

    The State of California, not Bob Grenier or Calvary Chapel define for us what Child Abuse is and isn’t (Romans 13:1).

    The Scripture doesn’t command us to hit our kids in the face, beat them with a large thick wooden paddle leaving bruises and drawing blood on the lower back, backs of legs and buttocks, lock them in small coat closets (and, Bob, no there isn’t a literal lock on that closet you converted into a pantry, but when you put Geoff in there, closed the door, and told him if he got out, you’d beat the tar out of him, that’s “Locking” in the closet for all intents and purposes), kicking, shoving, hitting with a tree branch over the entire body, etc etc etc.

    It’ll be real simple:

    “Bob, did you hit your kids in the face?”

    If the answer is “yes”….game over.

    If there is Smoking Gun Irrefutable evidence presented that Bob did cop to striking a minor in the face under his care, game over (and that evidence exists).

    The rest of the lies unravel.

  2. Alex – funny how things change. When I was growing up (about 43 years ago), Fathers did just that – beat their kids into submission. I remember having those welts and blood bruises from around my knees up to the middle back. I also remember my mom being beat worse than me – with pans and baseball bats, hair ripped out – and the cops saying they couldn’t do anything about it. Sometimes I think California over regulates stuff (gun ownership and carrying privileges for example), but with kids and women being beat – they got it right (still a bit soft in my opinion, but in the right direction).
    I sincerely hope and pray this meeting goes through. I don’t think Chuck can turn his back on evidence such as this. I also hope all the loser pastors (not the good ones) pay attention and change their behavior after the outcome.

  3. Ron, I agree with you that Calif over regs the gun ownership for the law abiding citizens (the bad guys there have tons of guns, so the laws ain’t keeping them out of the hands of the felons, gang-bangers etc).

    I also agree that California has is right on Child Abuse, Spousal Abuse etc.

    The bible doesn’t command us to beat our kids or our wives.

    I guess a hard-core fundamentalist could go back to “stoning” in the Old Testament, but I think the VAST majority of Evangelical Dispensational Christians (and others) would reject that barbaric act as a legal and legit and spiritual way of doling out punishment or venting one’s rage, etc.

    It’s Scriptural (Romans 13:1) and clear-cut, well-defined: Don’t beat your kids, don’t hit them in the face, don’t lock them in closets, don’t kick them, etc etc etc.

    There is responsible discipline that jives with the bible and the laws of the land, go with that. If you violate those laws of the land, which is violating the bible, you need to come clean, get help, answer for your sins…and the Church and church leadership needs to draw a firm line and reject abuse and support responsible law abiding biblical discipline.

  4. It’s really hard dealing with people when their lies become their truth, and they won’t own up to the real truth. It’s also sickning to me when victims who speak out are perceived as the “wrong” ones or crazy or whatever, and when really guilty people get a pass, and the victims get blamed or rejected, etc. To have this type of behaviour go on in believers – is just ???? Our whole faith is supposed to be about truth. ” I am the way, the truth, and the life”. I hope the truth wins in this one, or truth will just be something that is meaningless for us, as it is to many without faith.

  5. Re: Ron @#2 said,

    “funny how things change. When I was growing up (about 43 years ago), Fathers did just that – beat their kids into submission. I remember having those welts and blood bruises from around my knees up to the middle back. I also remember my mom being beat worse than me – with pans and baseball bats, hair ripped out.”

    I was raised back then and that was not normal. Sorry that happened to you, Ron.

  6. Yes, Ron, sorry you had to experience that. Terrible. It leaves lasting scars and stumbles people tremendously when it’s a pastor and sold as “doing the will of God”, etc etc.

  7. Grateful – I am Grateful for your thoughts. Before my Dad died, we forgave him – though I think it was more difficult for my mom to do that, than for me. Are you sure that wasn’t normal? For some reason, I always thought people did that in the early to mid sixties. See, you learn something new every day! Thank you again.

  8. Alex, for some reason, now I am feeling weird. My dad wasn’t a pastor – just a dad. Well, a drunk dad. I am sorry if I hi-jacked this thread.

  9. Ron, you’re not hijacking anything.

    I should’ve communicated better, I was referring to my situation with the added dynamic of “pastor” and the twisting of Scripture to justify abuse, etc.

  10. No Ron, not normal at all. Its called abuse. I grew up same time and thankfully nothing even close to that happened to me.

  11. Alex, in my opinion, it is worse when a pastor does these things – it is like it is sanctioned by God. When my dad did this, none of us new Jesus – so I would never have made a God/Dad connection. But in the case of you and your brothers – as a kid, you would have thought God himself was bringing you the pain. Not only is that misrepresenting God, that is just plain evil.
    From reading your postings here and at PP, I believe that if BG was even a little bit repentant, and asked your forgiveness (should have been years ago), you would have forgiven him.

  12. How does anyone know, if what Alex is saying is true? It is easy to make accusations.

  13. George, it might be easy for one person to make accusations, but only a lunatic family would all say the same thing. So, what, the boys all got together and said, “Hey, let’s smear good old dad’s name”?

  14. Ron, I remember some kids getting spanked with belts for lying, cheating, beating other kids up, stealing, and doing drugs. They did not bleed, they just couldn’t sit for awhile.

    I grew up with a high functioning alcoholic father. I thought our family dynamic was normal, until a series of unfortunate events led to the family’s disintegration. I lived with several other families for awhile and discovered how different and healthy other families could be. It was such an eye-opener! I became a Christian during that time and set out to learn all I could about family and group dynamics.

    I discovered that groups/churches/para-church organizations/schools/and businesses also had everything from healthy to very sick dynamics. I determined to learn what healthy looked like and pursued it. Got the healthy family thing figured out, but had lowered my standard too much when it came to church for far too long. Back on track now, thank God!

  15. Grateful – Amen and Amen!

  16. Valid question, George.

    You’ll find, if you read through the history of this blog, that the Grenier boy’s accusations are backed by eyewitnesses, including an aunt, a CC pastor, I think an elder, and maybe more, can’t remember.

    To the Grenier boy’s we add the mountain of accusations from church leaders, church volunteers, and church members who personally attest to the wrath (amongst other sins) of Bob Grenier, allows us to receive these accusations according to 1 Timothy 5:19 “Do not listen to an accusation against an elder unless it is confirmed by two or three witnesses.”

  17. George,

    I don’t know Alex and I don’t know Bob. Even if Alex is making the entire story up (which I doubt) what do you do with these verses in the Bible regarding Bob?

    1 Timothy 3:1-7
    Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer mustbe above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to
    drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

  18. Alex, My computer is haywire so I may not be able to post again for a bit.

    In reading this article it seems you’re itching for a fight. You’re putting forth a few what if scenarios and then stating what the consequences would be. I think it’s good to be prepared for all options but maybe it’s best to keep those private until after the actual meeting.

    I desire to see the right thing(s) done for the sake of your family and some who post here. There is much pain and disillusionment represented.

    Maybe it’s naive to go in hoping for the best but God very well might surprise many. I can understand being a bit cynical but I think it wise to keep it off the blog until after your meeting. I know if I was PC and was reading this I wouldn’t be too thrilled. It also serves to provide ammunition to the naysayers.

    God’s opened a door. Walk through it in the power of the spirit.

  19. What do you mean what do I do with those verses? I asked how anyone knows this is true? Once again you can say you have all of these people lined up, but this is a very hard forum to prove these accusations.

  20. George,
    The disfunction of this family speaks volumes of the leadership of this family. No one needs to proove anything to me. I just hope and pray that leaders like Chuck would give the victims of this kind of abuse a fair hearing. I know typically CC pastors do not think the Matt 18 process applies to them. Sorry to say, it does.

  21. Re: George @ #19

    I don’t think Alex was trying to prove his allegations here, he doesn’t need to prove them to us. He tried the Matthew 18 approach and was denied by Bob Grenier. He tried the church elders … denied (but then they have no power in a Calvary Chapel.) He tried higher up in CC with Brian Broderson (I’ve forgotten that list of names) all the way to Chuck Smith with no reply (until recently.) Alex’s goal, from what I understand, was to be heard and have the allegations looked into.

    Since this process has taken years and public pressure, many others have responded in sharing what Bob Grenier did to them as their pastor. So there’s an overwhelming outcry from the public.

  22. Re: Erunner @ #18

    I see it from a different point of view.

    Just my opinion for what it’s worth, but seems to me that posting the truth won’t hurt, rather it may even allow Chuck some time to process the issues at hand. The better prepared everyone is with the facts the better decisions can be made, imho.

    I doubt the object is to somehow catch Chuck off guard and “win” because he’s off balance by the surprise info. I don’t think this is supposed to be a chess game. If i hear Alex correctly, he’s saying he wants to keep everything out in the open, brought into the light, no secrets, no backroom deals, no surprises … just that the right thing will be done.

  23. Well put Grateful! I know from my experience with Calvary Chapel they purposely wanted to catch others off guard with a secret attack (ambush) strategy. I honestly don’t understand that mentality.

  24. George, too much corroboration and a Smoking Gun BOMBSHELL.

    Bob’s a lying child abuser.

  25. E, pretty much what Grateful said.

    It’s best out in the open. Transparency is good.

    Chuck’s having the meeting because it’s the right thing to do (and the smart thing).

  26. E said, “I know if I was PC and was reading this I wouldn’t be too thrilled. It also serves to provide ammunition to the naysayers.”

    I wouldn’t necessarily presume the first part of that. If you love kids (like it is reported that Chuck does) and you’ve been lied to by a con-man like Bob Grenier, and you realize that kids who grew to adults have been deeply hurt, disillusioned and stumbled by a lying child abuser and potential molester….and that guy was toting one of your Doves…I think Chuck would understand and have compassion and grace for the victims.

    The second part about the “naysayers”…well, it’s not about me, my methods, the blog, etc.

    It’s really simple: there is an IRREFUTABLE BOMBSHELL that no one can argue with. Bob’s a felony child abuser and lying. And, Bob’s blood son is accusing him of child molestation.

    The real issue now is, will Chuck Smith endorse him and support a lying child abuser with pending molestation allegations by his blood son, or will Chuck Smith do the right thing and yank the Dove?

    I think Chuck’s gonna do the right thing and yank the Dove…unless by some miracle Bob comes clean, etc etc etc.

  27. When one has the truth on his side, he doesn’t need to resort to trickery.

  28. Alex, I’m not sure I communicated my thought clearly. I have to believe PC would be saddened by the actions of BG. I hope that results from your meeting. There’s too much evidence to be ignored.

    Below are your comments that concern me. I don’t see the need for you to have included them as they are worst case scenarios that could happen. If any of the below were to take place I would then post here and specify what the ramifications would be. Hopefully I am being a bit more clear.

    From everything I’ve read your case is water tight with scores of victims along with your family who are ready to share their stories. It’s simply your tone that concerns me. Take care. Allan

    “Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel can (wrongly) assume that every one of us are unsaved attackers from the devil…it would be wrong, but hey, have at it. Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t mean we’re ALL lying and there’s some Grand Conspiracy over 30+ years against poor old Bob the prophet-victim.

    If Chuck Smith and surrogates try to take the “attack the victims” / “make this about the victims” route, it will go very poorly for them. If Chuck wants to have a Sin Contest, I’ve got a freaking PILE of really really bad stuff with names and specifics of a long list of Calvary Chapel pastors, Calvary Chapel churches, specific situations, big names, etc etc etc.

    The Sin Contest is not a wise move if CC wants to have it. So much adultery, molestation, law breaking, lying, cover up, etc etc in the CC Camp. If this is about who has the least amount of Sin, CC’s gonna lose that one.”

  29. IF Alex were dealing with a group that didn’t already have a long running reputation of it’s leadership:

    making assumptions that it’s “attackers” are unsaved and of the devil
    attacking the victims, working to discredit them
    making the issue about the victim and not about the victimizer

    THEN maybe one might make be able to ask if the tone is the best choice. BUT CC leaders do have this reputation … consistently, as if they went to school to learn how to do it. There’s something that comes from the top leadership on down for so many to learn these tactics so well. In this context, there is no “tone,” from my perspective.

  30. Alex…

    “I think Chuck’s gonna do the right thing and yank the Dove…unless by some miracle Bob comes clean, etc etc etc.”

    If Bob Grenier comes clean, meaning he admits to the abuse, for God’s sake Alex, he is not qualified to stay in the capacity of a pastor. I wouldn’t even recommend him for Harvey’s Janitorial Service. I’m sure you wholeheartedly agree with me.

    I would just like to say that when Christians humbly follow scriptures like Matthew 18, when all parties follow Matthew 18, the resolution of conflicts occur. It is always the hope that the Church will handle its own conflicts without the necessity of taking its problems before the civil authorities. I know it has always been Alex’s hope that this would be handled that way. It looks like it just may be. I realize that Alex has a temperment similar to the diplomacy of John the Baptist (I don’t think he eats locusts and wild honey though) but he means well and is trying to avoid legal action. None of this would have made it this far if the standard mamby-pamby ways were followed. When this story is later documented, who else in the CC ranks stuck their nose out to insure Alex and others could be heard? Brent Calvin and Jeff Fly at CCV? No. Anyone in the inner circle at CCCM? Not sure. Why did Alex have to call Chuck Smith by surprise recently rather than Chuck calling Alex a year ago? I am happy to see this meeting come together but it is about time, don’t you think? Alex may look like a bull in a china shop but let’s help pave the way for him to have an unincumbered path to the decisionmakers in CC to hear this out, and hear it out thoroughly. Then and only then do you have a right to criticize Alex’s attempt to get to the bottom of this.

  31. E, we’ll have to agree to disagree…and I recognize that many will question or second guess my methods, which I understand.

  32. Alex, Agreeing to disagree is something I can live with! We all come from different sets of circumstances that color how we see things. I hope you know I wish you nothing but the best. God bless.

  33. E, I know you do, and I have no problem with disagreement….it’s what makes the world go ’round. :smile:

    We all agree that pastors shouldn’t abuse their kids or molest kids, and that leadership should deal with it.

    After that, we can agree to disagree on much.

  34. The only reason Chuck is meeting is that Alex has taken this public. It is a basic fault of the Calvary Chapel model of church governance that there can’t be an accusation against a pastor in any other forum. Until they put in place for these things to be adjudicated within the church this will keep happening on other fronts.

    If Scripture had only said “Don’t receive an accusation against an elder” then we could say Alex is in the wrong. But that’s not the whole counsel of the Word of God. Thus, for a church to claim that they are like the New Testament church to lack one of the marks of the church (church discipline) is an indication of one thing. Calvary Chapel is not a church at all.

  35. Here’s a quote from that wiki page on the marks of the church:

    The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head. By these marks one can be assured of recognizing the true church– and no one ought to be separated from it.

    I realize this claim will seem radical to some, because we don’t understand all that well what makes a body of people a church.

  36. In contrast to the recognized marks of the church, Calvary Chapel misses the marks on many scores.

    1 – “pure preaching of the gospel” – Calvary fails here since the Gospel isn’t the standard, it is agreement with Chuck Smith which marks what makes a Calvary Chapel. That is why non-essentials like the pre-trib rapture are required elements to be a Calvary Chapel. At the very least it should be recognized that Chuck Smith’s teaching on the subject of the resurrection of the flesh puts Chuck outside the historical Christian faith entirely.

    2 – “pure administration of the sacraments” – It could be argued that Calvary does practice communion, but do they practice it properly? In fact, they do not. They pass it out and don’t always give warning about who may not receive communion. In their practice there is no screening at all. Thus they fail to meet this mark in their failure to properly administer communion.

    3 – “practices church discipline for correcting faults” – It should easily be seen that having to resort to Chuck Smith has more in common with the times when the children of Israel had Moses judging every matter (which Scripture tell us didn’t work) than it does with the New Testament model where matters of discipline are dealt with in the local community. The body judge in Scripture. In CC, the pastors judge. Even elders (pastors) can be examined in Scripture by the church body. In CC, the pastor is beyond question.

    Finally, Chuck is the head, not Jesus Christ. Thus, right minded Christians should stay away from Calvary Chapel. It is a cult, not a church.

  37. Alex, I have a comment in moderation – I think due to two links…

  38. Very good comments Doug. I would like to point you to someone who has spent a lifetime teaching and building the Church worldwide: George Patterson. His work on the Spontaneous Multiplication of Churches emphasizes only what Jesus considered essential for church life and growth. George is still alive, and I have studied under him two different times. He not only is knowledgeable theologically but has over 50 years of experience worldwide (in almost every major cultural setting) seeing the Church grow according to scripture. He and Ralph Winter have been far more influencial within the global Church (though nearly unknown to the average church attender) than Chuck Smith will ever be. You are right to point to scripture for the true definition of the Church. As fallible humans, we inevitably corrupt the meaning over time and need renewal to shed the barnicles and return to obedience oriented faith that is constantly motivated by a humble worship of God.

  39. Doug, yep, links. It’s unclogged now.

  40. No one should question Alex’s brash method, so long as he continues to be committed to truth. Hundreds of other aggrieved persons have tried to lodge a complaint only to be shut down, shunned, and manipulated. CC people–especially pastors–want Alex to play really nice. If his tone or rhetoric is too hot, they will act like he is in some fit of ungodly rage. “Is that really how the Lord would have you behave?” Ask any psychologist though: this CC move is classic passive-aggressive behavior. It’s the person who steps all over you and then when you get mad says, “Dude, why are you freaking out? You need to settle down.”

    Alex, you’re going to experience more passive-aggressive behavior. BG might have been purely aggressive, but most of these dudes are going to use the maddening tactic of passive-aggressivism. Keep up the good work!

  41. So true, Gandy.

    Besides, one can find brash communication style all over Scripture. The motive and heart behind it are what matters.

    I’ll take brash, honest, and quick to admit legit wrongs any day over nice, truth bending, and difficulty in seeing and admitting wrongs.

  42. Jim, God hates sin. God hates abuse. I just don’t know when CC is going to wake up and smell the coffee and get onboard with loving people instead of abusing them.

  43. Not Alone, thanks for taking out the trash ;-)

    Yep, God hates child abuse and God hates when pastors lie about it.

    Fact: Bob’s a lying child abuser and he’s toast, thanks to the Smoking Gun evidence (along with the large pile of first-person testimonies I’ve got.

    Looking forward to the meeting. God loves Justice and Accountability and truthfulness.

  44. Jim, Bob Grenier’s been operating a ‘hate campaign’ for 30+ years (and counting). So many lives negatively affected, many ruined. Terrible.

  45. Alex … YGM … on fb

  46. Well said Grandy!

  47. oooppps sorry … That’s … Well said Gandy

  48. In the very near future, bob grenier will be facing an intense confrontation. He knows when it will occur. I’m not sure he will attend yet most who know him best would be shocked if he doesn’t show up. There has never been a time when bob grenier allowed himself to be outside the loop or out of control of anything. He will most likely defend himself very vigorously.

    Today he posted a video preping his viewers on how to handle (not just trials in your life but) fiery trials. He just sweetly and melodiously speaks of the inevitable as though crawling over barbed wire while being the target of machine gun fire was a typical day at the office. Besides Alex, I want to encourage our readers here tonight to look this one up and watch it. It will be a very significant reference point after he is confronted with a host of accusations. You really must see how he handles the heat. It is very interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/calvarychapelvisalia

  49. This is bob grenier’s facebook post last tuesday:

    “What a great day with our staff today…….Thank You Lord…..”

    What do you think of that all you former staff members of CCV. Suzette DeHaan, mother of BG’s daughter-in-law, shared her Like of this comment. That is interesting that she is that supportive of bob grenier when word on the street is that she has said that the grenier family is very disfunctional. I would trust those words since she is a family counselor.

    Mark my words here, if bob grenier is established to have been to biggest fraud this side of the Rockies, then remember two mental health professionals in Visalia stood by grenier is full defence while he was secretly destroying lives behind the scenes. Those two are Jeff Fly and Suzette DeHaan…

  50. Jeff Fly…I want you to know that I have always thought you were a very gentle caring man. I still think so. I hope you have at least a micron of discernment about what is about to take place. Are you willing to have your personal reputation destroyed by being associated with bob grenier? I think there is evidence that you are very concerned about things that have occurred under your watch as an Elder of CCV. May I ask you a question? If I came to you at Turning Point with a revelation that a very highly placed public figure has sexually and physically abused some in his family on many occassions, what would be your professional obligation as CEO of that NGO? Would you be legally compelled to report it? Would you feel a moral obligation to report it? I am very interested to hear your response. But you won’t respond will you Jeff? Why is that? Don’t you have a voice of your own or are you an owned man?

  51. I thought it was a prerequisite to hand in your balls when you walk through the door as an associate pastor, elder, or attendee.

  52. Now I know how to pronounce Grenier. :)

  53. Alex,

    I would encourage regardless of how things go in your meeting with Chuck that you expose the sins of the many pastors/leaders at Calvary as the sheep need to be warned just like Ezekial 34. Even if Chuck removes the dove from CCV, the sheep under those other men need to be warned so that they are not led by these wolves and hirelings.

  54. I will continue to support this blog! This takes COURAGE & PRAYERS.

    Not everyone is called to be a watchman. However, some are. Do you remember Jeremiah in the Old Testament? God called him to tell the children of Israel the truth. The children of Israel did not want to hear the truth. The people hated Jeremiah. The people devised plans against Jeremiah. Does that make Jeremiah a bad guy because he was telling people what God had said?

    Today, like in the past, when a watchman warns what is ahead, the people don’t want to hear it. They want to shoot the watchman or destroy the watchman with their words.

    God’s Word should be our standard for truth!

    … And I will continue to post the above statement …
    May we all stay focused and vigilant !

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