Sep 092011
As Alex makes his way to Costa Mesa, he needs ours prayer. Please pray for open hearts, sound minds and for God to give Alex His blessings and strength. May His will be done!
Calvary Chapel Abuse
Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them
My thoughts and prayers go with you today Alex! May God send his mighty angels to surround you and to fight the spiritual forces of wickedness that stand against you. You have God himself on your side, you shall go forth in boldness!
That the man will no longer have to suffer as the boy did. That waging war will lead to peace. Just as the warfare of Golgotha yielded the fruit of Pentecost.
Amen to Alan’s prayer….powerful words!
powerful words indeed. Praying.
Praying that Gods will is don’t today and the healing can start.
Yes! Amen to Allan’s prayer. Wisdom, strength, and peace in abundance for Alex. Healing balm to all- applied to old wounds and new.
Amen.
Just tuning in and seeing today is the day – praying with you all for Alex. Praying Chuck Smith will humble himself and listen with Jesus’s love
We are lifting you all up in prayer today! Especially at 1 PM. Our family will be praying.
Amen @ #1 & #2.
My prayer is that truth will come out clearly. That whatever each player is really bringing to the table will become crystal clear to all in attendance. May God give wisdom as to how to handle it, with boldness, wise as serpents but harmless as doves.
Again, may no one be able to cover over sin, minimize damage, catch anyone off guard or fake godliness.
May God strengthen Alex.
May God be with him…but titles like “Costa Mecca” are not helpful to the cause…Graciousness would be much more helpful.
I’m also praying that this process will not be rushed, that everyone will be willing to take as long as is needed for things to be dealt with properly and thoroughly. With so much pain and effort just to get to this point, it would be a shame for everyone to feel rushed and do a poor job leaving things undone.
Costa Mecca is used as a term of endearment by many in referencing “Papa Chuck” and his church “Costa Mecca.” I don’t think it was meant to be ungracious.
I am very glad to see the support everyone is giving Alex. Praying that Chuck smith will do the right thing….
A video was posted this morning @ 9am by Bob Grenier showing him in the same room he always films his propaganda. Judging by that………he didn’t go to the meeting…I guess he could have still made the trip, but not his style to rush down and face his accuser. I would think that if he planned on attending that he would have met with Chuck, before Alex, to reinforce his long time connection.
Whatever reason he had for staying still makes him a coward! A vile disgusting monster. You have no honor Bob Grenier! You sick child molesting evil man!
Matt said, “May God be with him…but titles like “Costa Mecca” are not helpful to the cause…Graciousness would be much more helpful.”
Really Matt? I am sorry the word Mecca offended you. I am more offended by a child molesting coward then the word Mecca. Seriously Matt?
I seen his video as well and thought the same thing. Hopefully he did go, there would be no excuse not to have went.
He is a coward if he didn’t go, Alex and his brothers went and it wasn’t easy for them. Bob Grenier should have went if he is feels he is innocent. Which we all know that there is way to much evidence to prove otherwise.
Since he likes to video himself maybe he is at the meeting by way of Skype?
Maybe, that woul be better then nothing EWO.
As a person whose family members have been molested by someone within CC – yes, I still say we can be gracious and take the high road like Jesus did. So yes…I’m serious…
Ok, I hope this isn’t true, but maybe the reason that Bob isn’t there is because he knows that this is a damage control meeting. Maybe he knows that everything is ok for him.
I hope I’m not right about this either, but it might be that this meeting is where things are turned against Alex rather than Bob, with CC lawyers threatening libel lawsuits, etc.
I hope none of this is true, I hope that justice happens, but who knows with this psychotic, demonic, totalitarian church government model.
If this meeting is nothing more than damage control … then I’d hate to be in the shoes of all the CC pastors out there. Nothing good can come from ignoring such sin. Last I checked, God doesn’t like that.
I imagine there would be an outcry and a public outing of many pastors world-wide in CC. If there is never going to be any accountability, the people need to be warned all the more clearly and publicly.
Ok Matt, good luck with that.
Gandy, I hope it isn’t what you described. I don’t think it will go well for them if that is the case.
Grateful, I totally agree. The outcry would grow. Social media is a giant animal that the old school continues to underestimate. Ignoring Bob Grenier’s obscenities towards God and men should not continue be tolerated.
Matt, I’m very sorry for what has happened to your family member, and thus you, too. That is grievous. My heart goes out to you and yours.
I hear your desire to want graciousness, but while that term, “Mecca” is offensive to you, it’s not to the many supporters of CC that I know, so I’m fairly sure that no harm was intended.
I think many of us, though I can only speak for myself, are weary of the focus being on making sure the victims speak perfectly (though each person seems to have a different idea of what that should look like, while the victimizers are not called into account for their egregious sins.)
Not Alone said, “Grateful, I totally agree. The outcry would grow. Social media is a giant animal that the old school continues to underestimate. Ignoring Bob Grenier’s obscenities towards God and men should not continue be tolerated.”
I’ll add to that there are about 300 from my last CC who are interested in going public about his being a bully, and all that goes along with that.
I hope you will indulge me one last thought, Matt.
When Jesus was confronting sin in the Pharisees, and in the Temple, he wasn’t very gracious in my opinion. He was angry and told it like it is.
The prophets’ messages weren’t very gentle and gracious.
Paul had a few straight forward confrontations or comments, as well.
I wonder if God isn’t more interested in truth than our version of graciousness?
There you go Matt. I strained that nat, just for you.
Not a hill worth dying on.
Is it possible that the video in question was filmed at an earlier date?
yes, it looks like it was filmed early
BG has only 4 days of videos and 3 of them looks like same day filmed?
Keeping the day in prayer.
All in God’s time.
All in God’s hands.
Fight you battles on your knees and you will win every time”- Dr.Charles Stanley
J2, it did look dark. I hope he made it for the sons sake.
Alex I’ve been praying for you along with everone else. I know the meeting is now over and I hope you can feel some peace finally.
Continuing to pray ….
Alex, family and for all who are involved attempting to reveal the sins of those who lurk behind the CC dove, you are always in my prayers…
Cricket, cricket, cricket.
On the name calling issue. The phrases “you brood of vipers”, “whitewashed sepulchers”, “hypocrites”, “Wolves”, “evil and adulterous”, “blind guides”, “fools” are in the red letters.
At this moment, the dove is still flying over Calvary Chapel Visalia:
http://www.calvarychapel.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=69
Let’s make this plain and simple. As long as the mothership still has a list of churches on their website, they’ve got trouble. Unless they put in a disclaimer saying that these churches may be led by scoundrels, they’ve got trouble. As it stands, their webpage has a list of approved churches. Should make great fodder for the attorneys in these situations.
CCCM claim – “CCs are independent churches”
Attorneys – “What is this list on your website mean? It sure looks like a list of approved churches which are all part of Calvary Chapel.”
Let’s make it even simpler. The picture on the splash page this morning is Skip Heitzig’s – the poster boy for bad faith dealings.
Attorneys, grab this off the CCOF website and store it to your hard drive:
Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowships (CCOF) exists to encourage and assist Calvary Chapel Pastors and those who desire to become Calvary Chapel pastors. Our heart and focus is to foster an environment of fellowship, encouragement and unity among all Calvary Chapel pastors throughout the world. We also desire to assist pastors who are considering applying to become Calvary Chapels through our Application Process.
Here’s more from the CCOF page:
http://www.ccofministry.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74&Itemid=91
Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowships
Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowships (CCOF) is a separate corporation that has been formed to help serve the churches that make up the Calvary Chapel fellowship of churches. The Purpose of CCOF is to serve the Calvary Chapel Fellowships by:
* Making resource material available that will help pastors and churches operate more effectively and efficiently as they fulfill the Great Commission.
* Assisting churches that desire to become a part of the Calvary Chapel Fellowships and use the Calvary Chapel name to determine if they are like-minded with the Calvary Chapel philosophy of ministry and Calvary Chapel Distinctives.
* Providing on-request assistance to Calvary Chapel Fellowships with church, pastoral, board and other church related problems and issues.
* Hosting an annual Pastor’s Conference that fosters fellowship, building up the fellowships in the Word of God, and training in specific areas of interest.
More from the same page:
The most distinguishing elements of the Calvary Chapel ministry are provided in the book Calvary Chapel Distinctives written by Pastor Chuck Smith. Each chapter of the book describes a key distinctive that helps to define who we are as a ministry. These key distinctives can be summarized as follows:
* The Book of Acts model for establishment and operation of the church.
* A pastor led Moses style form of government.
Not a denomination? Really?!?!?!
A difference which makes no difference is really not a difference at all.
Where is the MOSES LED MODEL found in the book of Acts? I don’t see it. Even the deacons were appointed with the Apostles and the body…
Even in the very first church council which decided whether or not Gentile converts should be made to observe the law – the whole church participated -
Where was the person who sits in Chuck Smith’s “seat of Moses” found in the book of Acts?
In fact, the High Priest of the Jews is a more apt example. Moses did not preside over the religion of Israel – Moses was the CIVIL leader. Aaron was the high priest. If anything should be drawn from the OT as an example, it should be the priesthood, not the civil government.
These people are ignorant of the most basic Bible facts. It’s your own fault if you follow them.
Where is the MOSES LED MODEL found in the book of Acts? I don’t see it. Even the deacons were appointed with the Apostles and the body…
Even in the very first church council which decided whether or not Gentile converts should be made to observe the law – the whole church participated -
Where was the person who sits in Chuck Smith’s “seat of Moses” found in the book of Acts?
In fact, the High Priest of the Jews is a more apt example. Moses did not preside over the religion of Israel – Moses was the CIVIL leader. Aaron was the high priest. If anything should be drawn from the OT as an example, it should be the priesthood, not the civil government.
These people are ignorant of the most basic Bible facts. It’s your own fault0 if you follow them.
September 12-14, 2011 Pastors’ and Leaders’ Conference Central and Northern CA at CC Visalia, CA
No wonder Chuck can’t pull the plug this week…
From the internet wayback machine – Mar 2009 – description of what a Calvary Chapel is:
Another smoking gun from Mar 2009:
Ouch, that’s gotta hurt.
Yeah, not to mention the fact that there are a ton of politics involved in who doesn’t get to become a CC church. I remember one CC pastor pulling strings with Chuck to shut down an applicant because they were “too close”–they were 7-8 miles away and in another city!
morning everyone – hoping it was a positive outcome for Alex – whatever happened, hope the motivation to meet with Alex wasn’t something else like to shut down this website as part of some “agreement” – to shut up Alex basically. Waiting to hear – hopeing Chuck was gracious and helpful.
We are all waiting to hear some news. Hope meeting went well
From Costa Mesa website:
All Calvary Chapel churches are independent of one another (not a denomination). Some do not even bear the name of Calvary Chapel but all are connected by the fellowship and like-mindedness of the men who serve as their senior pastors. What I have been taught at Calvary Chapel is that every senior pastor also has a pastor of their own. This is the pyramid organization which ultimately traces back to chuck Smith at the top. The members or attenders have very little little to do with this fellowship. Chuck apparently is Shepherd from the prophecy he received.
With this in mind, I have been to churches where they didn’t even have an official senior pastor for many years yet they were a vibrant community of believers. Its ashame that many groups like this will always be excluded from the brethren at Calvary Chapel since they don’t have a senior pastor. It makes you think twice, what really makes a church. I can honestly say, it is not the senior pastor. Its really sad when you hear the constant negativity towards denominations that many CC pastors continue to vent. Membership is frowned upon and the senior pastor is glorified.
Hoping for the best for you Alex.
The silence has me afraid that Alex was served with a cease and desist letter for libel or, more likely, defamation. I’m hoping that Chuck Smith responded to the complaints with concern and humility. However, in the past it seems that CC likes to play hardball.
Doug
I really appreciate your boldness and dissection of the matter. There is no such Leadership entity as the Moses model ( though we all can garner nuggets of truth from the humblest man at that time). Rather you see leaders who lead with intimidation, shame, control tactics, fear and without any accountability of finances, scripture interpretation. What was meant for love , forgiveness, and reconciliation in mt 18 is wrongly used by “pastors” at cc for control, exclusion, and sadly on many occasions, abuse of the flock. Pastor means shepherd, and I have not witnessed these” pastors” once checking on the sheep. It really makes me weep when I contemplate the abuse of authority that occurs. Fear reigns amongst the elders, where love should. It is all in the flawed model.
I believe something would have been posted by now. If there was an agreement for Alex to keep quiet then at least many have been warned already from this site.
Just be patient eveyone. There is much to consider.
WA, patients would be easier if we knew something. We can see on his Facebook page that he has been offered a choice. Wish we knew what those choices are.
I’ll post an update in the next day or two.
This is a complex situation to say the least.
Up to this point I had much clarity on what the “right thing” to do was.
I have to set aside my gut for a couple of days and listen to people close to me and sort this out before making a decision.
There are people who I care deeply about (family, but also friends and general victims of CC) that I have to consider. My next move is a critical move and will set the tone for the foreseeable future.
To dispel any wild speculation, there is ZERO money involved, no “bribe” of money.
I was not threatened physically in any manner. I felt safe. It is a regular church setting with real people and nice staff and pastors doing normal stuff. I did not run into any Jesuits or hit-men
The issue is complex. When you are dealing with human beings and relationships and opinions, etc and there is no 100% Black and White Standard, you get Gray.
I want to do the “right” thing, I believe there is a willing partner on the other end to try to do “a” right thing. I have to pause and re-evaluate.
Will the choices go away if you share them? If so, that in itself is pretty scary. I like what Jessica said on FB, make sure it is something you can live with after some time has gone by. Remember feeling victimized all over again after Bob out of town board got our testimonies and them gave him a pass.
Things sure would be easier for them if this site went away before the case on the last child molestation goes to court. If your gut is telling you that you are be moved around like a pawn, listen to it.
Praying for you Alex. May the Lord guide and direct you and may your decision be honouring to Him. So many here only want God’s very best for you and your family. Go with Him and you will do well.
Thanks Alex. You know I have tracked this crisis for many years. As you said, it is a compex situation. It is wise to give very careful thought about the next action. Some on this blog still have a very limited understanding of the complexity of the problem. Some also know how high the stakes are. I do not think you should ever proceed on your ‘gut feelings’. The multitude of sound counsel is the wisest road to walk, even if it takes time. Everyone else must exercise patience!
I think I should contribute something here to give some balance to conventional wisdom that some hold about Alex. (This is unsolicited. Though I believe Alex’s claims, I speak for myself.)
Now that many thousands of additional readers are tuning in to this discussion, I would like to assure you that Alex is a highly rational man. He really is not a ‘loose cannon’ as some assert. Most assuredly, he is a bold and direct person. Fallible? Yes. Fairly quick to admit that truth? Yes. Alex is capable of handling complex, and multi-faceted topics. He is able to have fascinating civil discussions with people who are very hostile to religion and church in particular. He is trusted by them because they see he is honest about the grey areas in a debate. He doesn’t fill in the gaps with the standard flimsy arguements that many Christians use when talking with atheists and other non believers. Alex, contrary to some beliefs, does not just fly off the handle about everything. He listens to counsel. He considers it deeply. He plays out the potential consequences before moving forward.
This all started with bob grenier. Most hoped it would get resolved at the local level. But the backchannel informants have revealed an alleged tangled web of possible corruption. bob grenier is not standing alone. If it was just limited to CCV and grenier, this would be far less complicated. This has escalated as it has because the problem is deeper and more complicated than anyone ever imagined.
My hope for Alex and his brothers, is that the continual framing that they are unstable, and a threat to CC, will fade away as more come to their aid to expose bob grenier for the countless miseries he has caused to them, and to others. Reform CC? Let’s take care of bob grenier before we consider other things.
WA, you seem to have the advantage to know what is actually happening.
Where does wise counsel come from? From those who listen to the world or those who listen to the Holy Spirit? If that isn’t your gut then how does the Holy Spirit speak to us?
Agreeing with Nonnie @ #64.
NA..this blog is just a source of communicating what can be shared out in the open. (It’s the tip of the iceberg) There are many other lines of communication as well. You know what you know, and you have a place to share it here. In most cases, the comments here have been reasonable and heartfelt. Your history, like mine, is limited to CCV. That is where your focus has justifiably been. The world (the local community of Visalia, and the world at large) now know a great amount of the details surrounding the controversy surrounding bob grenier. This is precident setting. Up to a few years ago, there was virtually no place to air these concerns. bob grenier called the shots, and effectively shut down all attempts to bring accusations against him. He had built a fortress around himself (that is crumbling as we speak), and built a network of support among highly placed gatekeepers (Police Department, Tulare County Sheriff’s Department, the Tulare County District Attorney’s office, and the loose ministerial associations in Visalia/Tulare County). This blog has brought light to a very dark time. It is having an effect…pretty substantial in my opinion. So NA, rejoice in this. You must believe God is fully aware of all that is going on. He is helping to expose false statements, and establish patterns of behavior. No matter how big Chuck Smith appears and how formidable CC seems, they cannot continue to speak lies or cover up things that they prefer to keep quiet. It is moving in the right direction but don’t be dismayed if there are casualties along the way. It’s a messy buisness these rogue pastors have built.
Alex, my friend David is going to send you a FB friend request. He has much to tell you from our old days at Raul Ries’s church. This is pre-CC Golden springs days, and it will give you a lot of insight as to why the CC good old boys club tries to silence the ones who try and hold them accountable.
WA said, “The multitude of sound counsel is the wisest road to walk, even if it takes time.”
Wise advice.
It takes time.
These issues didn’t manifest overnight. They won’t be dealt with in one meeting, either.
Praying for God’s leading for you, Alex, and wise advice from a multitude of counselors.
Let’s all continue to pray for Alex, his brothers, Chuck, and all the men involved in this meeting. May Jesus be glorified in the coming days in this situation.
Even if it was a normal church, with nice people who want to do the right thing, why the hell did it take these guys so long just to talk to you and hear your complaint? There remains no plausible excuse for this aspect of the whole situation.
That’s very true Gandy. It is inconceivable how at CC’s the character of Christ and the very core of Christianity being about forgiveness and reconciliation is just tossed out the door along with too many people. You’re rarely allowed to even face your accuser. It can’t continue to just abuse so many people and trample the core principles of Christianity underfoot.
Alex,
Don’t allow anyone in the CC system to force you into a hasty decision. You, as well as the hundreds (?) from CCV or thousands (?) from various CC’s that represent painful collateral damage, have come too far too long to cave to that.
Heartfelt prayers are being said for you, your brothers, and the many hurt congregants (past and present) at CCV as well as the broader system.
Past deceptions and wrongful actions that have had long-term damage in your family as well as other families need to be addressed. So many have been so hurt for so long and so unnecessarily.
I wish I didn’t know what I do and hadn’t experienced what my family did concerning CCV and BG, but then again I’m sure you and your brothers feel somewhat the same.
Take the time to pray and do what’s right……for yourself and all concerned.
joining in late today, but joining everyone in prayer for and with you Alex.
Father God we ask You to have Your way in this. Move on behalf of Your children. I ask that You do not allow evil to prevail, to run a muck, to continue…
Father, give us patience to endure when we are sinned against and humility to ask for forgiveness when we sin against others…
give us love for those who hurt us and help us seek to be loving to all and never be hurtful
give us a thirst for Your holiness and not for un-godliness…
be the only voice whispering in Alex’s ear as he comes before You for counsel in this issue…minister to him by Your Spirit….
Praying in agreement with Dusty.
All this stuff that is going on with the Calvary Chapel movement is not really suprising and all the more reason to leave the apostate institution. My feeling is that no matter what comes out of all this, is that Calvary is a system that needs to be avoided by true brethren.
sadly…I agree with you Solomon.
Agreeing @ #77
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby: If you have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 1 Peter 1:1-3
Alex, you are right, these things are sometimes very complex. My hope is that your dad would confess his sins against you and your siblings, make a public acknowledgement and for you all to begin the process of healing and reconciliation.
Why do I feel I knew what would happen? I knew from the begiinning that this meeting was not about holding BG accountable but was about silencing Alex. I may have not been in the meeting but there are a few things that Alex has mentioned after meeting that give us an idea of what may have happened. We know he wasn’t offered money nor was he threatened physically. Alex went to that meeting thinking he was giving Chuck the option of doing what Alex think is the right thing but instead it was Alex who was given the option of doing what Chuck think is the right thing.
Alex said that he needs to make a decision that would affect not only his family but also other victims of CC abuse. Chuck only decided to talk to Alex because he was in a position to assist victims of CC abuse and further expose the corruption within the CC leadership. Chuck wants to make an example of Alex of what can happen those who are considering to hold any CC pastor accountable for his misconducts and crimes.
If this blog is shut down or is stopped then we know that the meeting and any other meeting that CC abuse victims may have with Chuck is about protecting CC’s image and not about protecting the victims. So the next time someone from CC tells you to speak to Chuck personally about your grievances about your CC pastor, let this a warning to you. Chuck has powers you are not aware of and he will use it keep anyone from holding him or any of his pastors accountable.
Willy…your words could prove to be prophetic, and the cards were stacked in that direction but let’s see where Alex lands on this before we speculate too much. Alex will not cave in, and my impression of Alex is that he walked into that meeting fully prepared for an outcome you described.
Chuck must be employing the carrot and stick form of diplomacy. Why else could there be complicated decisions for Alex? Chuck must have some form of a threat (probably a lawsuit).
Anyways, do what’s right for your family. Don’t let this ruin your marriage, family life, etc.
Yes Willy and Wide Awake – I thought it was odd that Chuck said he didn’t know Alex had been wanting to talk with him or something like that. I don’t know how he could not have known that seeing how concerned he is about CC’s image. And he knew about this blog. I am sick of the “power” Chuck Smith has. I wish people would quit supporting him the way they do where he gets all this power. Alex – I have no idea what happened but it seems from what you have said that Chuck S. wasn’t meeting with you to “listen” and do something for you. He had an agenda to present to you – typical. I hope you don’t let him intimidate you if this is true. And please don’t let him get you to shut down this blog. It has helped so many of us. I hope our speculating is off and that Chuck is going to do the right thing but I along with others here are skeptical. Hang in there. I have been hoping to gain back some respect for Chuck S. by him helping you, but if he has pulled a fast one on you, then my lack of respect will stand forever for CC.
Sue…if Chuck Smith does not genuinely, in concrete ways, seek to help Alex and his brothers at least have an open airing of the grievences with bob grenier in bob grenier’s presence, then I suspect this story will go viral within a year.
And another comment – I am not the only one in my world waiting and hoping. There are many Christians I know that don’t post here that are “waiting” now to see how Chuck S. handled this problem – whether he is going to help Alex or try to silence him for their name’s sake.
Chuck may have delayed too long to avoid several class action law suits. If he defrocks bob grenier, then it may establish ‘agency’, and he is damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. I see the complication in Chucks decision, not Alex’s. But I have limited knowledge. We’ll soon see.
praying again today for you Alex (((hugs to you and your family)))
I can’t help but comment, as someone who has been on this blog almost a year.
I believe that there are 2 situations which I have always seen on this blog:
1. Alex’s personal situation which I believe was the initial purpose of this blog.
2. The “bigger picture” of the abuse within the CC movement as a whole, and those participating here who have been harmed by CC.
If Alex is able to get closure on his initial plight, which is to hold his step-father accountable for the abuse his family endured, (because I don’t believe he set out to be the poster boy for CC reform-I believe this based on my daily experience here on this blog, interacting and reading..) then he will have accomplished his mission.
There are those of us (myself included) who want this situation to represent a grander “disclosure” to include CC as a whole (reform, etc)..and perhaps we would be disappointed if it stopped at Mr. Grenier. So IMO, we have to realize (which is why I stopped posting my personal, yet anonymous posts) that this site was really about a mans personal plight to see justice for his family. If you go back to the beginning of the threads last year, thats what it was about.
I am not criticizing Alex, in fact, I believe that God, through this blog, has connected him with many “victims” and he has realized this, and has started many threads, so others can participate in sharing their abuse. It has been an outlet for me personally, although I have not been brave enough to name names. Alex is being used by God for the betterment of the “church” as a whole.
For some reason, my heart tells me that what I have described will be the challenge for Alex.
I want him to know, as I am sure he is reading all these posts, that God is using Alex, BECAUSE God has gifted him with much courage and fearlessness towards the “powers that be”. Giod hgas equipped him for perhaps a greater task than he had imagined.
I don’t know Alex personally, but I believe based on what I know of him here and other blogs, that he will stand alone to do the right thing.
I applaud him for coming back to this blog, his blog, when there were times he was caving under the pressure. I am praying for him.
I also hope there are others who can come alongside him, so he is not going this alone.
He needs a lot of support.
Alex, I hope I was not out of line with anything I said.
I support you and applaud you for what you have endured, and for the courage and determination you have to seek justice. God Bless You!
Hannah…well stated.
Many years ago, I attempted to help sort out a mess at CCV. In the end of the effort, I was convinced of a systemic problem within that CC’s structure. When a senior pastor is being accused of sin serious enough to question their integrity for ministry, there was no forum for that to happen. Matthew 18 was followed very carefully because the accusations were coming from fellow spiritual leaders who knew their Bibles very well. The private one on one meeting occured but only resistance and turning of the tables resulted. Then more than two witnesses were prepared to take this to the Elders but the senior pastor crashed the party and went into a tirade for a few hours. The facts were never allowed to be presented, and there was no other way to deal with this in a productive way, so those who attempted to bring peace to severed relationships decided to put it to rest and move on with their lives. I left CCV because I realized that the senior pastor was never going to humble himself before the Word of God, and this lead to a devastating distrust of him and anything he stood for. I regreted for years that this problem never got resolved. The fallout from those times was horrendous for many lives. If I had known that within the Grenier family, child abuse was taking place, I can assure you that none of the men who were aware of those other problems would have walked away without a vigorous effort.
So Hannah…this is about bob grenier, and…it is about a systemic problem in CC. The systemic problem may not be Alex’s battle but it should be someone’s. If someone within a church fellowship is in a serious sin: sexual immorality for example, the Bible is clear that church leaders must exercise discipline, according to 1 Corinthians, etc. So if a senior CC pastor in in a serious sin: sexual immorality, child abuse, employee harrassment, misappropriation of church funds (fraud), extortion, etc., the church body must have a means to verify the accusations, and level strict discipline if true. CCCM has reinstated adulterous pastors in churches where the local board removed the pastor in accordance with scripture. That is wrong. So this blog discussion may continue to go on for quite sometime until there is resolution to some degree.
WA “The systemic problem may not be Alex’s battle but it should be someone’s. ”
Very true.
If whatever happened in that meeting gets hushed up and never comes out and Alex is somehow convinced to or coerced into taking this blog down, then it’s not going to help Chuck’s image or CC’s image one bit. They’re going to come across as scheming, conniving, unchristian, wicked people who are only in the pastoring business for the money and influence.
I do think it is more than a little telling that Alex wanted to keep everything out in the open, and the moment he has his meeting with Chuck everything goes back to being hushed up and behind closed doors. That’s probably an indication of the sort of people Chuck and the other CC bigwigs are.
WA-”Then more than two witnesses were prepared to take this to the Elders but the senior pastor crashed the party and went into a tirade for a few hours. The facts were never allowed to be presented, and there was no other way to deal with this in a productive way, so those who attempted to bring peace to severed relationships decided to put it to rest and move on with their lives.”
Moving on is sometimes the only choice you have when you have exhausted your possibilities.
If you don’t move on, they will move you on.
To stay and keep the battle going…
It is a dance with the devil.
And he’s leading.
So you leave because you know that you can’t fight the devil.
It’s God’s battle.
J2-
Alex did say he would post an update in a day or to.
Let’s keep praying for him.
Wide Awake said, “if Chuck Smith does not genuinely, in concrete ways, seek to help Alex and his brothers at least have an open airing of the grievences with bob grenier in bob grenier’s presence, then I suspect this story will go viral within a year.”
I don’t think it will take a year. It’s already much further than the blog. I run into people who know about the blog, though they don’t visit it. They have friends that keep them updated. They already know the CC abuse exists, they know the lack of accountability has ruined good men and drawn narcissists into the CC pulpits.
Ran into someone with a CC child sexual abuse story recently, too. People KNOW. Many more than I had realized knew about it because they were informing me of Chuck’s meeting with Alex. No one trusted that this meeting was being held in good faith, though. But all said that if they were surprised and Chuck did the right thing, and actually operated in good faith, working WITH Alex for a good solution, then they would respect Chuck Smith. If not, then they would speak publicly against him and warn everyone they could.
I don’t think it would take a year, and I do think this will solidify the case against CC for many riding the fence of self-preservation.
A well-known defensive tactic is to have strength in one’s silence and elicit lots of information while giving little in return. Hope this isn’t what’s happening but wouldn’t be totally surprised by it.
I just don’t trust the CC system at all. I was going to preface that statement with a “I’m sorry,” but I can’t apologize for the truth.
I think you are correct, Lone Ranger. In the last 30 days 5247 people have visited this site, from all over the world.
Opps, that was Grateful’s post I was responding too. You made a valid point as well, LR.
J2P speaks truly as well.
Just to give some perspective about the web traffic comparison. bob grenier is trying to gain traffic on his CCV website. He now has 37 fans on facebook. He gets less than three comments on his daily devotions each day. But as I write this there are 56 visitors online, and about 350 hits per day…
I guess with the issues and problems that are a part of the CC history, it should not surpriseme that conspiracy theories should be prevalent. But for some people, including J2the person to collectively cast al those around Chuck (likely both past and present) as somehow rotten and empowered to bridle the likes of Alex is nothing short of reckless and, as charitably as I can put it, immature and shortsighted. Things are rarely black and white and I suspect Alex is trying to find a place for what was discused in his meeting and what God would have him do with it.
Please don’t speculate as to him, his motives or the likes of what occurred until such time, if ever, that Alex shares. Maybe its just that Chuck is not the behemoth and uncaring man many paint him out to be, but truly a man of many flaws, like us and those pictured in the bible. My eleven years with him proved this to be true.
I am continuing to pray for Alex and the decisions he has to make, but must confess I am more than a little concerned;
Chuck said that he had not known that Alex was atempting to meet with him, yet he also said that he knew of Alex and was aware of the blog. If this is true how could he NOT KNOW that Alex wanted to meet with him?
Chuck knew of Alex and the blog, but never attempted to get in touch with Alex on his own. It was only after Alex was given Chuck’s private phone number from a friend and Alex contacted him that a meeting was set up. If this had not happened I don’t believe that Chuck would have done anything IMHO!
Another huge red flag is that yet again bob was a no show, even after Chuck supposedly told him to be there. Instead bob was once again sending out his propaganda regarding people who are being persecuted severely are the ones who are doing the most for God’s kingdom. (Paraphrased)
Then WA posts that it was in the newspaper that bob was spearheading a memorial for 9-11 along with some other area Pastors. The key here is that bob made sure he was the one who brought this together for the community. He made sure that he was heard and seen feeding his own ego and once again manipulating people into believing that he must be such a Godly man.
WA also stated that there was some sort of CC leaders conference being held at CCV in a week or so!
And the list could go on…
I for one do not trust Chuck Smith and am beginning to believe he belongs in the same catagory as bob grenier! IMO, he does not genuinely care about Alex and his brothers and what they have had to endure at the hands of bob griener. If he had, he would have contacted one of them a long time ago.
It physically sickens me that bob did not show up to that meeting and meet his sons face to face because he knew that there would be no consequences, as pappa Chuck would have his back!
I will admit that I was not at the meeting and do not know what exactly transpired. From what I have heard thus far chills me to the bone because IMO it was Chuck in major damage control. NOT as a Pastor who was genuinely concerned and sickened in his spirit when he was made aware of all the years of horrendous abuse the Grenier brothers have been through at the hands of bob. And then to be made aware of all of the personal testimonies of the pain and destruction of so many people who had at one time trusted bob as their Pastor and Shepherd.
Alex, I have told you from day one that I would always be here to support you and I will not go back on that promise. As one person posted on your FB page, take your time and don’t make the mistake of deciding on something right now that seems beneficial, only to deeply regret that decision later down the road. Chuck has one purpose and that is to protect himself and the empire he has built. He can go on and on stating that they are not a denomination or an affiliation, but as Doug Gillard pointed out with statements from CCOF that states the exact opposite. Be ever so careful who you put your trust in Alex, ever so careful…
Sheck…I was thinking of you tonight…how good to see you.
I was thinking of a Limerick thread for some comic relief…
and I apologize if I have sounded too harsh regarding CS. I am trying to be consistent in framing these problems as alleged problems. If those of you who know CS vouch for his goodness, I’ll take your word.
Jeff~#106
Sorry Jeff, I just read your post after I posted mine. I have tried over and over again to have some trust in Chuck, but time after time he proves me wrong. I know that Alex is very intelligent, thinks things through, seeks advise and is very cautious. I am putting my trust in Alex. So sorry, I can’t say the same about Chuck or bob.
Hi Janelle! Let me clarify…The Northern and Central Cal Pastors Conference is being held at Mt Hermon beginning tomorrow. I am not sure but it appears that CCV is hosting it or spearheading it. Chuck Smith is headlining it, and David Rosales and others are joining him on stage.
Janelle…if Chuck was moved by Alex’s words last friday, then tomorrow he will be with bob grenier for about three days. Giving Chuck the benefit of the doubt, he may have a serious man to man talk with grenier to hear his side of the story again. Chuck could be weighing this carefully too. If he finds grenier’s story shaky, he may go home to SoCal with a different take on it all and seriously consider pulling the plug on BG. Who knows. Just an alternative thought.
There once was a blogger that lost trust,
In a man who was stronger than rust,
He said, “Woe is me!,
“It just cannot be!”
So the blogger went to sleep in disgust.
It was asked of Chuck what would happen to CC when he retired or passed with all the stupidity and strange pastors leading some churches. PC’s response was wise…”those churches that are built on the Word and are placed by the pastors at the spout of the Holy Spirit will survive and florish. Those that are aberrant or built upon man will not.” is itnot true that CCV is failing? certainly we can all agree that sheep get hurt or harmed as the fruits and true calling of the SP is made known. I do struggle with the will of God to delay judgment or removing his presence from a flesh SP.
if PC intervenes (as he indiscrimanately has done), he puts the resources of CCCM at risk, which despite the misappropriation, is still the gifts ofrom the body to the work of that church. If he resrains from all involvement toward this cause, then he has to turn a blind eye to injustices and actions that he can correct. I suspect at some level he never wanted this responsibility or to be in this place.
Not to say I am unsympathetic to the plights or many and the abundance of abuse that can occur due to the unbiblical Moses Model (i was abused myself), but I doubt an 85 yr. old man who bears the advancement of his years can be as purposely manipulative on his own right. Maybe I’m wrong here as I too struggle with these issues and this man.
I have a friend who once described some choices in life as “a wide gray line with fuzzy edges.” Isn’t that true Sheck? You were there, and I was here but we both struggle to understand these issues and these men…
I’m with you WA. Clear choices…a few. accepting jesus as my Saviour. That’s one and at that, after much resistance and fully eexhuasting my means and efforts. second would be marrying my wife.
after that…fuzz, including accepting a call into ministry…at least that one.
Sleep well. if you look close enough, you might see some arms wrapped around you like a father carressing his little child to sleep. Night all.
WA #110 ~
I will be praying that you are right regarding Chuck having a man to man with bob and that he will be able to see through the facade.
WA #111~ LOL!!!!
Jeff #115 ~
I pray I will feel His arms around me, but according to WA’s #111, I may need an attitude adjustment first! lol!
Night to you too :~)
This booklet really helped me to understand some things. I hope it helps you guys out.
http://bit.ly/mKJAq2
“I know and rest in confidence upon it that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and will secure justice for the poor and needy [of His believing children].”
Psalm 140:12 (AMP)
Jeff #112,
if PC intervenes (as he indiscrimanately has done), he puts the resources of CCCM at risk, which despite the misappropriation, is still the gifts ofrom the body to the work of that church.
If he does NOT intervene, seems to me he puts the entire CC body at risk.
Brian,
Are you the Brian from PP?
I have read 49 pages of the book you linked and I would encourage everyone here to take the time to read it.
I think it addresses the issues we are dealing with head on, especially the connection between “leaven”(sin) and “the church”.
Egypt brought leaven into the world to make bread easier to tear apart..they gave it to God’s people (Israel)
Leaven is “alien” organisms that soften truth to make Gods House more palatable but changes it’s substance.
God forbids leaven in his church
God forbid leaven in his burnt sacrifices.
Leaven must be removed at Passover.
The Lambs blood on the doorpost PLUS the removal of leaven= salvation
Can’t focus on one without the other.
If you don’t do both, the “angel of Death” , the “Destroyer” will destroy the firstborn then consume the rest of the family.
Much more I posted but deleted so as not to take up too much space.
Much about the “church” today as we know it, that relates to the discussion here.
Read 49 out of 185 pages.
***I guess with the issues and problems that are a part of the CC history, it should not surpriseme that conspiracy theories should be prevalent. But for some people, including J2the person to collectively cast al those around Chuck (likely both past and present) as somehow rotten and empowered to bridle the likes of Alex is nothing short of reckless and, as charitably as I can put it, immature and shortsighted.***
That was not my intention. What I was pointing out is that, if they end up making a deal with Alex that silence’s this blog and silences what happened at that meeting, then they will be viewed as coercive, unchristian people. Trying to hush up criticism and deal with issues behind closed doors will only engender more suspicion and more criticism. That’s pretty much guaranteed to happen. Maybe they should think about that as they proceed.
And I still think it’s telling that Alex wanted everything out in the open and as soon as that meeting was over everything went dark. That doesn’t mean that CS and the others at that meeting are the worst people ever, but it is suspicious–particularly given all of the obfuscation that has taken place over the years leading prior to this meeting. I don’t think it’s wrong or paranoid to find it suspicious and I don’t think it’s wrong or paranoid to voice that suspicion.
j2 “if they end up making a deal with Alex that silence’s this blog and silences what happened at that meeting, then they will be viewed as coercive, unchristian people. ”
J2-How can Mr Smith “win” when if he admits, he loses; if he denies, he loses?
So how, from his perspective, can he come out on top of this issue?
“Not to say I am unsympathetic to the plights or many and the abundance of abuse that can occur due to the unbiblical Moses Model (i was abused myself), but I doubt an 85 yr. old man who bears the advancement of his years can be as purposely manipulative on his own right. Maybe I’m wrong here as I too struggle with these issues and this man.”- Of course an 85 year old man can be purposefully manipulative on his own right. At the very least he should be able to see the bad fruits that have come in much due to this ‘Moses model” which is clearly not how the bible tells us to govern. Also with Moses, God Himself came down and told Moses what to do and He did not establish Moses as the high priest either. It was Mt Sinai that led to death and Calvary that led to life. At the very least CS should denounce the Moses model as failed and unbiblical, even if it took his life time to discover it.
If these models were not in place, many of these problems would have already been diffused at the local level and much abuse would have been stopped in it’s tracks.
Cindy said, “If these models were not in place, many of these problems would have already been diffused at the local level and much abuse would have been stopped in it’s tracks.”
So true.
Any of us who’ve watched, up close and personal, the latter years of loved ones, we know that those years are not for the faint of heart. While I don’t know why God does this, I still trust him with this process. He appears to turn up the heat on us to possibly burn off as much dross as possible before we enter into our new lives, ultimately in the New Heaven and on the New Earth ruling and reigning with Jesus Christ.
Is this a difficult situation for Chuck Smith, especially at this age, with his reputation and entire empire at stake? Sure it is. I pray asking God to help him to see clearly, to make wise decisions, to really do what’s right, and to not put his legacy above obeying and honoring God. To be willing to throw himself under the bus, even the entire CC movement, if that is what it takes to set things right. To say that will be difficult would be to understate the situation, and I don’t even know all the complications that play into this, I just know human nature and how effectively the enemy can convolute a situation.
I don’t think it really matters in the end if any of us thinks Chuck Smith is a “good guy” or a guy whose done some good, or a “not so good guy,” or a wolf in sheep’s clothing. What matters is if he does the right thing, right now.
***J2-How can Mr Smith “win” when if he admits, he loses; if he denies, he loses?
So how, from his perspective, can he come out on top of this issue?***
At this point, I’m not sure that he can. That is a result of him (a) setting his church on the very faulty foundation of the Moses Model, (b) CC being so careless in who they allowed to affiliate, (c) being inconsistent about whom they broke affiliation with, and (d) not doing anything when reports of abusive pastors started surfacing. The abuses within CC have gone on for so long and have not been dealt with and have become so intertwined with CC that no matter what he or other CC higher ups do, I do not see them redeeming their reputation. The abuses that come from the Moses Model of leadership are going to be forever tied with the memory of CC.
At this point, I would think it’s not a matter of salvaging his reputation and that of CC but of doing what is the most morally correct and what is the most pleasing to God. In the short term, that probably won’t do anything reputation-wise, but in the long term, as far as a legacy goes, it will probably be more redeeming than if he and the other CC higher ups respond like business-men trying to cover their butts.
j2p – totally agree -
Just saw on PP that Bob is hosting the CC pastors conference this week. Probably the one at Mt. Hermon. Like I said on PP, those pastors deserve what they get. Snorefest full of lies.
Good thing Chuck is taking this seriously. At least Bob’s not hosting a kids summer camp or swim party.
NA, I’ll call you today. I know you’re chomping at the bit, and I understand. Believe me, I do. I’m trying to do the “best” thing in this situation…and I’ve learned a valuable lesson about “right” and “wrong”…it’s not always so black and white, though I’d like it to be.
For those of you who stuck your necks out and sent in a testimony, I agree with Not Alone, I will talk with you offline and give you an update and not leave you hanging. You all know how to get ahold of me if you want to talk.
Take your time, Alex.
Listen and follow how God leads you.
If it’s all gray … may God give you wisdom in which way to lean.
Continuing to pray for you Alex.
Alex,
Haven’t had the time to be online much the past few days so I know I’m probably missing some of the details, but I’ll continue to pray for you. Looks like you’ve got some difficult decisions to make from what I can see.
So no update or resolution for the rest of the people on here, who have given you the internet steam to go forward?!
Alex, although my testimony (and experience) wasn’t from CCV, I feel like those of us on this board share a kinship regardless which CC (or CC’s) we attended. Thank you for allowing us to have a place to share our pain, anger and healing. God bless you my friend.
Gandy, fair enough. If you want to contact me and tell me who you are and how you are connected to all of this, I will be happy to talk with you and give you an update.
You can email me who you are and a phone number to reach you and we can talk.
I am trying to navigate this situation in a manner that honors the essence of things agreed to in the meeting, while not slamming the door in all your faces, as I know that lack of transparency breeds speculation and distrust.
agrenier at gmail dot com
How is Alex being disingenuous? Or are you joking?
Jim, IMO I don’t think Alex is trying to be disingenuous he most likely made an agreement to stop posting on here about the issues with CC. I would guess we may never know what happened in that meeting. There are other sites posting as well so if this site is shut down there are more to continue covering the abuse. Still praying for all involved
The silence is deafening, isn’t it? I find it hard to wait for word after reading (albeit by lurk) for these many months. Watching as Alex was being mentored by Michael over at the Phoenix Preacher, watching Alex rail against abuses within Calvary Chapel (with good cause), and now getting just small tidbits from him instead of multiple posts. Just from what Alex has written, it seems a change has taken place in him. I think that has to do with talking with Chuck – people might not like it, but Chuck has been walking with the Lord for what – 60 or 70 years? And even though his theology isn’t 100 percent (whose is), I think Alex might have been surprised by the presence of the Lord in Chuck’s life. He was prolly
humbled – shoot, I would have been. And Chuck would likely have shown grace towards him – who can’t be moved by what Alex has gone through.
I think we have to take a wait and see attitude. Sure, we might not ever “know” what fully went on. What else can we do – we have to trust in the Lord. That’s where our help comes from.
Oh, and I think we will more fully understand when Alex becomes a 6 day creationist, waiting for the pre-trib rapture!
“Jim” has been taking shots for a long, long time and was banned for not upholding his or her own articulated standard of conduct as to credibility.
The person is entitled to their opinion, but obviously, I disagree with his/her comment.
I guess there will always be people like “Jim”.
Ron, I was humbled by the reality of the situation and the humanity of all the actors, including myself.
I’m hoping in time there will be a way to tell the story w/o violating a little bit of trust that was established that is in the infancy stage.
I am also hopeful for a positive outcome.
Wendy, thanks again for your support and encouragement. I wish I would’ve had time for my wife and I to meet you and your hubby. Maybe next time down. I didn’t know you were in the area until you fb’d me the other day
Okay, I’m good. I can wait to hear later.
Thanks, Alex.
EWO – What other sites are posting, in case it is true that Chuck S. has gotten Alex to stop posting here about issues with CC?
Alex, my wife says that my post might have come off as rude – if so, that is not how I meant it. And if it did, I apologize.
Alex, I know! My husband and I would love to meet you and your lovely wife next time you’re in town
Sue someone on here yesterday left a post but had her link to her website.. Was on Kosnoff? You can also google and find others as well… I am sure there will be more….
Sue this is what I got from the person that posted a comment yesterday it took me to this site .
http://vallee7.wordpress.com/2011/09/
Ron, not at all…no offense taken.
EWO – Thanks.
Alex – Imo, you will do the best for yourself and that is what counts for you. I don’t buy the “I love you” that you got though. It takes time to really know and love someone. I have always told my daughter when someone says I love you, when they have just met you, don’t believe it. I tell her its manipulation, even though it feels so good to be told it.
sue, I understand your skepticism very well. It’s very difficult for me to believe it also, but I want to try to.
Just one thing …
Alex, while I can wait, and understand the story will be carefully crafted, I can’t answer people who want to know what happened. Imagination is often worse than reality. Many have walked with you thus far, even though they don’t post. Many more just hear the updates. Your outcome obviously affects others.
I accept that you are trying to do what’s best, but surely CS understands that silence will hurt him. It won’t go away. Something will have to eventually be explained.
Praying for you, for your specific outcome, and for all the players involved at the table. But also praying for the larger story, and the larger outcome.
Alex – Chuck S. is not called “Papa Chuck” for nothing. He has been a “father” figure to many who haven’t had good father figures. And you are in that category, so hearing “I love you” from a grown father figure and someone “important” like Chuck would have quite an impact I would imagine. Chuck is into “kill them with kindness”. Imo, remember he is just a man beneath all the persona and you don’t just “love” someone you don’t know. Think of men you know. You grow in friendship and grow to love dear friends, but love and close friendship don’t just happen in one meeting. Charles Manson “loved” his girls instantly, and they were vulnerable and taken in by the attention, but he was just manipulating them. I am not equating Chuck with him of course, but it’s something to think about. I am not important in your world, and whatever you decide I will respect. I just don’t want to see you manipulated by “kindness” . You’ve been through enough.
Silence is what is required now to let the people who can get things done, done. I trust that Alex is doing what is best and that’s huge for me because I don’t trust anyone.
Grateful-”Many have walked with you thus far, even though they don’t post. Many more just hear the updates.”
I am an anonymous nobody, but I had this thought so here goes:
Why don’t those, who want an answer post on this blog?
Even Anonymously, so that Mr. Smith can know how large the voice really is here.
I am sure he is reading. Or has one of his “men” reading.
If everyone who lurks and checks in (there have been an average of 65 today if I am correct), made some comment there would be more of an impact.
Not necessarily in Alex’s case, but for CC as a whole.
Let’s face it folks. Alex sold us all out. First, we should have been in on the deal terms. Second, expecting him to live by his word to others is quite beyond reasonable expectation…especially as an extension of decency and favor to Chuck. Chuck doesn’t deserve time to address matters Alex placed before him, much less in the fashion he wants to address them. Alex was hoodwinked.
I’ll have none of this Chuck is a decent guy. And statements made by Alex, such as this: “I was humbled by the reality of the situation and the humanity of all the actors, including myself” will NOT sway me one little bit.
I want justice, meat, blood and money…lot’s of it. And make sure if a deal goes down, that Sheckstein doesn’t get one rotten cent…the anti-semite. Whoever is in favor of booting Alex off this blog and us taking over…raise your right hand.
Motel-You are one kvetch….
Aha, Another anti-semite.
PS your “e” disappeared……
Hannah. You can hang with me anytime.
I have not had a chance to respond lately but have looked at the responses. I am a little disturbed to say the least, but I only speak as one who just started to go a CC 5 months ago. I do not know what to think and my husband and I are now making a decision based on these incidents and the Moses model of church that we did not know about.
I have to say one has to be very careful – I have seen many of these posts and have heard your testimonies of what you have been through. Someone needs to come out clean with this because many have been hurt beyond belief. I just do not buy this “nice guy” thing.
I do not have as much clout, but I do see what is going on with the church at large and it “ain’t” pretty.
Many in the community of Visalia are watching this story unfold, either by this site or word of mouth. Many also are aware of bob grenier and his craftiness and are watching to see what Chuck Smith is really all about. I’m curious to. Is he a man of character and will actually help the hurting? or is he smoozing Alex to silence him? I don’t know but actions speek louder than words. Someone can say they love you and their motivations are not based on love, but rather on selfishness. Kind of like a band-Aid with some kisses. lol Seriously… I really, really hope that justice prevails. Words don’t mean zip to me, what will Chuck do? Maybe he is limited to some degree, but he can do something. He took bob’s dove before, why can’t he take it again? I’m pretty sure that’s what happened years ago when the church was changed from Calvary Chapel Visalia to Immanual Christian Fellowship.
In all honesty though, WE KNOW THAT GOD’S WILL ALWAYS PREVAILS! Chuck is just a man, just like bob but with a different title. Our confidence should not be in any man, because they are sure to fail us and they most certainly do. God doesn’t need Chuck’s help to bring justice, lol I forget that sometimes 8) We are all but dust, everyone of us… even bob! Let’s not let the outcome rob us all of joy! These wolves have stollen enough of our joy.
Alex is no more a sell-out than Sheck is an anti-semite…haha…just too funny.
I think something is in the works that is along the lines of what Alex wants to happen. I was right when I said a few times that Chuck wanted to silence Alex which he has agreed to do. I don’t think Alex would have agreed to this if all Chuck wanted to happen is for Alex to shut up. The fact the Alex is still speaking to us even in a toned down manner compared to previous days means he is in a wait-and-see mode if what was promised to him would actually take place.
I know I am just speculating but the other option at least for me is to think that Chuck is a thug who threatened to harm Alex and his family if he doesn’t comply. I don’t think Chuck is that type of guy. But I don’t think Chuck would want to appear to be a wimp to Alex either and just give in to his every demand. Both Chuck and Alex want to give each other the opportunity to save face. They want to show grace to each other and hope that whatever they both decide to do would be right in God’s sight.
So we may never know the outcome of this meeting. But at least from Alex’s point of view, it is going in the right direction.
As one who was “on the inside” of several Calvary Chapels, I can tell you this “inside information” thing is just loved by the leadership. They love it. It is the very product of the “Moses model”. Chuck Smith is Moses. He has an “inner circle” that has information that only a few are privy to. He can include or dis-include at will, since he is Moses. It’s the very essence of what the “Moses model” is. He is Moses, you are the poor little sheep that must wait for Moses to tell you what the Lord had to say.
So it’s easier to just get away from the whole CC system, and get with a church that actually believes in the priesthood of all believers.
Willy:
I think you are onto something with the “thug” remark. I have it on “inside” authority that Chuck was originally cast in the role of Santino before Jimmy Caan’s agents aced him out.
Many of us that have experienced the neglect, abuse and authoritarian control of the CC system also struggle with the inevitable emotion called bitterness. This is considered a deadly sin by most CC pastors and treated as such but they offer no help other than to temp one with more bitterness. But is bitterness a sin or more a symptom that something is desperately wrong? (honest question) Is it wrong with the individual for feeling the injustice with the Moses Model, authoritarian, “Touch not my anointed”, arrogant, power tripping, man centered, abusive, dictatorial, cult like, oppressive, condescending pastors that the CC system appears to be churning out in their mill? Just asking..
Hannah said, “Why don’t those, who want an answer post on this blog?
Even Anonymously, so that Mr. Smith can know how large the voice really is here.
I am sure he is reading. Or has one of his “men” reading.
If everyone who lurks and checks in (there have been an average of 65 today if I am correct), made some comment there would be more of an impact. ”
There are many reasons why most people don’t post, just read. Everything we post on the internet stays out there in cyber space forever. Even posting anonymously leaves our words to hang. Some of us are very aware of having changed our minds on issues and then wish we could retract some of our words but can’t.
Others know people can figure out who they are and then their anonymity is gone. Often there is a price tag associated with that. I do suspect that most just don’t have something to say that others haven’t already said 10 different ways.
We all play our roles, but my point was simply that there are lots more people following this, who will be affected by the outcome.
If you have moved on from a system, and you’re warning others of an unhealthy environment that caused you to leave that system, that’s not bitterness.
Paul the apostle warned about many things throughout the epistles. Never does anyone suggest that he is bitter. That’s just a ploy to, once again, get people to shut up about what is being exposed.
Andy,
I am talking about real bitterness not just warning people. I’m talking about myself and no one else. I feel bitter and if its a sin I do ask for forgiveness. I would probably not be on this site if I was over the pain the CC system has caused me. I wish I could let go of it but I haven’t been able to since I feel there is no resolution. It is hard to let go of friends and acquaintenaces I have made over the years in CC. I realize now that CC is apostate in many areas and wish I had found a healthier church upfront. I believe in God’s soveignty so I guess there was a reason for it all. Its just so painful.
The Lord is a Healer. I don’t personally believe that you are in a position of sin, when you are in need of healing in the heart. That’s just my belief.
Here’s what John Piper has to say on the subject of bitterness:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/what-is-a-root-of-bitterness
What is a “Root of Bitterness”?
April 01, 1997 | by John Piper | Topic: Assurance of Salvation
“Bitterness” is usually associated with anger and grudges. But is this what it means in Hebrews 12:15? “See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness, springing up, causes trouble, and by it many be defiled”? I don’t think so …
You’ll have to click on the link to find out why he doesn’t think so …
Sorry Sheck…I think you missed the memo. Frank Capra told all of us that he wanted Chuck to play Brando’s role. I think there was a scheduling conflict, and Brando won out…
None of this makes sense. The whole point of this blog was to draw public attention to an atrocity and a systemic dysfunction. Now, it’s going to end with some backroom deal? I don’t understand how that works.
Gandy, nothing is ending. Don’t worry. Everything we discussed is in works.
Andy wrote, “So it’s easier to just get away from the whole CC system, and get with a church that actually believes in the priesthood of all believers”.
I agree with this. CC does not allow you to think for youself and worse allow you to seek God on your own. You must wait for direction from Moses (the senior pastor). This is dangerous theology.
Alex, I check in often and support you with my prayers. I hope the resolution helps to ease the pain of what you have endured. Shame to all those who have contributed to your pain. Those who hide behind the veil of “ministry” and cause harm to others should be very afraid and should repent publicly. I am with Motel, let the flogging begin!
Sue … your #152 post is full of wisdom … well said.
Alex … you & your family continue to be in my prayers …
Tina,
I have been putting much thought to your #162 and #163.
You have firsthand experience and I respect your heart.
And the truth you always bring.
There are 2 sides to the coin.
I had time to go over to PP and see how others there have responded to the same situation we are discussing there. And to read Alex’s posts to his friends over there.
It may be that Alex has more support over there,to trust the outcome-to trust CS, and more people that are giving CS more of the benefit of the doubt than we are here. Are we less loving? Are we less trusting? Where would you go and spend your time? With those that love you and think the best? Or with those that are “realistic” yet cynnical?
There is so much to discuss about this.
Sometimes it feels like “church” all over again.
We are the “bad guys”.
Do we just decide we have said enough?
Please…honest feedback….
Alex??
Alex-
You owe me nothing..that wasn’t an ultimatum.
Just want to know what you think about the discussion here.
Is it helping or hindering you.
You are in my prayers.
Nancy – thank you. I am really sick of the public Jesus incarnate persona that Chuck S. exudes. It amazes me how people want to buy into it, like they do the Pope, etc. Chuck is just a human with flaws like all of us, and different at home. He is not closer to Jesus than any of us, or more “annointed” than any of us.
Hannah – It’s starting to seem like a joke to me. Many over there on PP have been “sick” of Alex and wanted him to shut up about BG and go away. He was even banned. Now, since he is a “fan” of CS, he goes there knowing they will support that, is not banned anymore, and they are now supporting him, and here where we truly were behind him, when they weren’t, he’s gone basically, and very silent. Go figure —
Sue,
My position…Kind of reminds me of a dog that is adopted from the pound who was abused.
He will love you in time, but will still flinch when you try to get near him.
An unconscious, but learned “trust meter” of sorts.
Hannah, your #179
I think maybe Alex just needs input from people who are a little more removed from the situation. Michael has been a good sounding-board for him, as well as a few others. We need to remember that this meeting with Chuck was a long time coming, and I’m sure Alex’s emotions are all over the place.
He knows there are people here praying and waiting.
thought for the day – if you talk to a good salesman you won’t even know you’re being sold until you get home and say to yourself – “I bought this?”
does Hope and Change You can Believe In ring a bell?
Hannah – I hear you.
Anonymousmonk – I hear you too
Re: Hannah @ # 180
Alex isn’t posting on PP and being silent here. He checked in with both blogs, but said he needed some time to think.
The two blogs have different purposes, different flavors, and different motives for participating. Imo, the blogs are different animals and can’t be compared.
If Alex has changed his mind so drastically, isn’t it he who owes CS and the CC people a public apology?
Grateful – he didn’t say this here that was said on PP -
I am learning some lessons and having to rethink my black and white positions and God is giving me a peace about it. I have made some new friends that me and my wife are blessed with and I am sincere in believing that when Chuck Smith told me he loves me at the end of our long session, that he really meant it. That alone spoke a lot to my heart of hearts…and I’m wrestling the skeptical side of me not to steal that away.
I don’t know what happened in the meeting either, so hard to know what is even being considered or having to be thought through. My prayer is for wisdom and removing of any veils and clarity of thought for Alex.
My suggestion would be to see if there is true fruit (and actions) that truly match up with whatever might have been said to Alex. I know when I went to CC the power of their speech when with them was very strong. They knew and said all the right words often and even spent much time building my trust up. But, sadly, in the end, their trust proved out to be with an agenda to build my trust in them and for their control, not for godly reasons. Lies came easily to one of the leaders and spread easily to others destroying relationships with them not even willing to look into the truth. To this day, the truth is beside the point to them, it was all damage control and silencing me that was wanted. I have met many who have left the same church in Olympia and nearly all of them for similar reasons-inability to have any kind of resolution with leadership or even try to go that way. My point is being very loving was used to establish my trust until they didn’t get the “me” they wanted- the one that would jump at that leaders wish and do that leaders desire. My trust in God was measured by my trust in that person. Another leader also said that by my not willing to be totally trusting of him shows that I really don’t trust God. How can trust in a person ever be measured by trust in a human? It is not biblical and I was being asked to trust in a matter that was not trustworthy.
So…again, my prayer is for your discernment and clarity and God’s leading. Sometimes knowing what that is can only be found by letting yourself breathe, pray, and spend some time away from other influences for a while.
The systemic problem there will remain as long as the Moses model remains.
Oops…how can trust in God ever be measured by trust in a human?
It will become apparent in the coming months what the real situation is and it’ll all make sense (I think and I hope).
I know it’s tough to trust anyone, and I know deep skepticism is warranted (believe me I know). The situation is complicated and there is a lot of mythology out there, but there is much valid criticism as well.
I do intend to find a way to tell the truth while maintaining the little bit of trust that has been established.
I think it’s wise for PC to someday give a response to his critics in a wise way and set the record straight (from his perspective) so that the masses aren’t left to conjecture and speculation due to opacity. He wouldn’t have to out specific people, but I think it would go a long way to address some of the lingering issues and misconceptions in general.
The “real” story is a mix.
It’s not as glamourous and pristine as the PC Worshippers would like, but it’s not as dark, nefarious and conspiracy theory as some of the PC Critics and CC victims would assume.
There is a human dynamic that is crystal clear to me and a lot is a function of non-Omnipotence and less-than-Super Man reality, along with fallibility, differences of opinion on what is “right” and “wrong”, competing factions and personalities and agendas, people convinced “they” are “right”, competition over that “rightness”…and everything being pinned on one dude who is a human being as well and much like the rest of us. A human being who at the end of the day isn’t as powerful, all-knowing, all-in-control, all-wise, etc etc as some would like (myself included).
Chuck is a dude. He’s not a bad dude, he’s not a 100% righteous and sinless dude. He makes decisions “he” thinks is “right” and “righteous”…but he’s human and IMO, not always right (same goes for me and for you). He’s a saved sinner, though he’s convinced he’s right until he sees otherwise. That’s a big part of the dynamic.
All in my opinion, with the info and experience I have to date.
I do agree there are major problems…and I’m working to address some of those in a practical manner, but it ain’t gonna be easy and I can’t be completely transparent, but I will continue to request that some things are addressed and there is a willingness to do so in a particular way that doesn’t violate the independence of everyone involved.
And, yes, don’t put me on a pedestal either. I promise you this with all certainty, I will let you down eventually.
For anyone who is too fond of Chuck Smith, and is too wrapped up in his every word and deed, etc….look to Jesus and pray for the fallible man.
IMO, a lot is people pushing deity on Chuck, rather than Chuck asserting deity. I wish he’d confront that more, but it’s not my call.
Grateful, “the two blogs have different purposes, different flavors, and different motives for participating. Imo, the blogs are different animals and can’t be compared.”
I have always understood that Grateful.
I was away for the PP for 2 years and when I checked in I noticed Alex was starting this blog.
And I observed the same post that Sue pointed out and pasted.
This blog was sparse in its postings for a long time, when Alex was over at the other blog posting all day long.
I think in many ways, he ..as I have said before, did not set out to be the “poster boy for CC reform”. It started with his personal situation. Some of us here encouraged him to keep this going, when maybe he wanted to stop.
Maybe many of us, myself included, have put a burden on him he never meant to bear.
) to read your story. There is some comaraderie in suffering.
So I for one am not certain what purpose I have here at all.
I just know I have prayed long and hard, when I thought I was all alone in my abuse, for there to be some outlet to share.
I searched the net and found only Rick Ross which was outdated but at least there were others there who shared my story. And it has been a great help Grateful (formerly “Grieved”
Alex so graciously started other threads so those of us who wanted to can share, apart from the threads he started with his step father. But Alex was always more a part of PP than here. I stayed to be here for other women who maybe thought they were going out of their mind.
I have no claims to anything…and as always we always have to examine out motives.
Alex-Just noticed your post.
Thanks.
Trusting God in all this is in opposition to the flesh, but it is the only way.
Hannah you’ve been a blessing to me as I’ve read through your comments. Just thought I’d share that.
WendyC
Alex:
Your #193 is totaly unacceptable. Either you put PC back up on the infallable pedestal since he is closer to Jesus than the rest of these posters, or litigation against you will follow. I promise.
How is anyone closer to Jesus than the rest of people posting? That’s a shocking statement for anyone to write.
I agree with Motel the Tailor. If you need help in persuing litigation against Alex, just let me know. I know of an attorney that specializes in pedestal restoration cases just like this.
His clients include Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker. He is currently working with Barack Obama on a pro bono basis, of course.
Jeff, enough sarcasm already… It’s getting old!
My two cents below:
I am not in Alex’s shoes but I have had a somewhat traumatic child hood also but at the end of the day I had to forgive my family regardless if they acknowledged their wrong doing. It gave peace beyond measure when I did that, however I am still wise enough to know that I have to keep somewhat of a distance as they are not saved and can be very adversarial to my belief in Jesus Christ. Alex should forgive his father regardless if he is repentant or not, however truth still needs to be spoken especially when souls are at stake. Trying to make a deal with the wolf will not solve the problem or change the wolf’s heart. My advice to Alex is forgive and then move on but don’t get charmed or hoodwinked by the charismatic Chuck Smith. If you have knowledge of sinful men in high places then you should expose it in order to warn and save the sheep in their congregations. Calvary Chapel has already started on the road to apostasy and the momentum is carrying them further down the emerging road. Trying to change the system from within will only lead to more frustration and heartache. God has given me the peace to put my trust and hope in his son Jesus Christ and no one else. Chuck Smith is just a man nothing more nothing less, he is no more anointed than any other sheep in the fold.
Calvary thrives on man worship and manipulation so best to avoid the daughter of the harlot. Revelation 18:4 “says to come out of her, my people”. The Calvary way of doing things have fostered man worship, empire building, using Godliness as a form of gain, authoritarianism, lack of accountability (financially and personally) etc. I am done with Calvary and realize that I do not need to meet in an institutional fellowship in order to have church. A lot of these Calvary Pastors are lovers of money, Chuck Smith, Raul Ries, Pancho Juarez, Skip Heitzeig while many of their sheep struggle to make ends meet. They saying giving money to their “church” (as if the church is made of stick and stones) is giving to God, I say hogwash on that. Just give to people in need yourself, why the need to filter your hard earned money through these pastors. The tithing is for the Old Testament and now we are in grace giving mode. So little of the Calvary money at my old fellowship went to missions or the poor, most of it goes to salaries, buildings and needed outreaches such as a fashion show. These men live soft and luxuriously, shame on them. Where do I sign up for a job where I can make a salary on the backs of other peoples hard work and take vacations to Switzerland in the guise of ministry. The whole 501 3c tax status does not allow the church to give money to the poor or people that need it in the congregation but only help with food and clothing. You are also restricted in the way you can preach and what you can preach according to 501 3 c. When did God ever tell his people to get in bed with the government especially at the cost of preaching the true and unadulterated gospel?
The time has come to worship God in spirit and in truth. I have made the bold move of leaving the institutional fellowships in favor of home fellowships (more the new testament model than what we see elsewhere in this country) Where two or more are gathered is what we need to remember. We should stop equating a man made system with the “church” as we the people are the “church”. Chuck obviously wants to silence Alex and it appears to be working at least temporarily but I encourage Alex to stand for truth no matter the consequences.
Hey Once a CC guru:
Candidly, there is some seriously wrong stuff being flung at both Alex and PC that borders on libel, is absurd , and is flat out gossip such as to name but a few, presumptions as to their motives, makeup, etc. While everyone wants to lynch PC, I for one, despite my experience with him and in CCCM, will not stand idly by and remain silent.
Sarcasm – not.. These comments are meant to be mirrors to stuff that people are either stating on this blog or what they are thinking based inferentially on what they state. Some people here need to think before they post. I simply can’t believe how people have turned upon Alex for his silence. I simply cannot believe that people could think about PC as they do and castigate him and hang him on every tree they pass by. Some balance needs to be lent to this discussion.
My bitterness from my CCCM experience did not, nor does not, justify the vile that spewed from my mouth and the taste it put into other’s by expressing such vile. Where in scripture does it support scattershot criticsm such as has seen here since Alex had his meeting and went silent. And “no,” he doesn’t owe zip to any of us to tell what happened, etc. If anyone feels betrayed or left out, them let them carry their own torch and take the lead.
I am all for sharing our CC experiences and the results of it..betrayal, loss of fellowship, bitterness, separation from God…and on and on and on. I have done so here myself. But that basis of fellowship does not provide a scriptural exception to slander, etc. And don’t fling at me the “righheous indignation” bit. Identifying, sharing, ministering and comforting do not have include the speculation and intimations about PC and Alex going on these past days.
This was the main reason I left CC. I don’t doubt that this sort of thing happens in other church systems, but, it seems to be epidemic in CC’s, it happened in every one I was a part of. Just get away from the whole mess, instead of try and change it.
Different “Alex” above.
Everyone has different experiences within CC and have been given the opportunity to share. So maybe its just time to let God deal with the problems within CC. We all need to pause for awhile. At least it has helped many that have came to this site. It looks as though everyone is speculating what peoples motives are God knows the heart of all his children. IMO, I think that what Alex is dealing with, must be difficult and not easy either way he chooses to go. This was his fight at first we must not forget that.
#206
That is true I am glad for one that I came across this site because I could have become one of the casualties. I for one liked CC until God opened my eyes in a big way with my situation I was going through. But through all the pain it made me realize how God will let us endure it all so we can come out stronger. God will lead us along the way if only we will slow down and listen and have faith it has taken years but I am stronger because of everything….
Well … it’s as if we were all riding in a motor home at 75 mph down the highway when suddenly the vehicle took a hard left turn. The participants need some time to process and adjust. Lots of communication followed by silence necessarily leaves many questions, even when you do trust someone.
Imo, it’s okay to process and see where things land. I know that’s not comfortable for everyone, but for some it’s not a problem. Besides … blogs are weird communication anyway. Helpful in many ways, but it’s still weird.
Yes, Grateful, I agree and extend grace to all who are skeptical, feel betrayed or have questions etc. It’s turning out differently than I expected, but I think it’s the “right” thing and I’m hopeful for a positive outcome.
I have no problem with people questioning and venting, etc.
I can see where all of the victims of abuse would feel very confused. I am confused a bit myself but this is Alex site and maybe it will turn into something better.
EWO, I think there’s a way for this site to eventually turn into something more positive, while still addressing concerns that come up within the individual CC’s.
I have felt that was the way it was heading. I for one am glad to see the change but it is a lot to take in since we all have had a lot of venting in the past.
Alex said, “I have no problem with people questioning and venting, etc.”
I respect this attitude and understanding, immensely.
It’s reasonable for some of us to wonder if Chuck could be a guy who butters others up for his purposes. It’s reasonable, because some of us have had CC pastors who have done exactly this. I’ve experienced it and I’ve watched it happen to others. When one has up close and personal experience with such manipulations, under the guise of “love”, it’s understandable and reasonable to wonder and to warn, just in case it’s happening to someone else.
In the end the person, in this case – Alex, has to judge that for himself. We all know that, I’m sure. We just say this out loud because we care. We care about Alex, now that we’ve walked this road and heard his story; and we care about the “best” being done as it relates to the Grenier situation, child abuse in churches, and the systemic CC issues. We care. We care about the sheep, the Body of Christ. That’s one reason we’re here to begin with.
After having been manipulated, I for one, am skiddish about manipulation, as many others are. So thank you, Alex, that you understand this and have grace towards our reasonable ponderings.
I appreciate it that this blog is not restricted, only for the educated Christian, or the Christian with a title, or the elite in some way, or the most mature, or the most healed, the best worded posters, etc… I’m grateful that you have had a “come as you are” attitude towards the hurting and the understandably skeptical.
This blog is full of specific, sharp criticisms of very specific people. If some new information has come to light, or if your perception of the rightness of these direct criticisms has changed, don’t you need to apologize and repent publicly? After all, your criticisms and rebukes were VERY public. Shouldn’t you issue an equally public statement about how wrong you were in your perceptions and accusations?
Gandy, I addressed the one issue clearly that was alleged by others and flatly denied when confronted.
The other specific criticisms, allegations etc have not been addressed and might not be. They are allegations, they are corroborated by “2 or 3 witnesses” and I don’t know them to be lies, but I do know them to be allegations corroborated by 2 or more sources.
I stand behind all the allegations against Bob Grenier.
Grateful, that is a good way to put it, “the understandably skeptical”.
I agree with much of that post you made.
Alex, I think we all know you still stand against the truths as committed by Bob Grenier. We also know you are in a holding pattern for this time. It is hard for us (and I haven’t been abused by CC at all – but just see the need for some change), and I can never understand what others here have gone through, so it will be harder for those folks. But, I think you must have told Chuck that you would think about things – take all the time you need brother! Take the time you need to contemplate, seek counsel, and most of all, do what you are doing – seeking the Lord.
We will continue to pray!
Well Gandy:
Sometimes an answer to an issue or question, whether from PC or otherwise, is a process…and not a fixed moment in time. Sometimes there needs some action to support the answer in order to verify its veracity. This may take time…maybe weeks or a month or so. I think Alex specified this when he said:
“The issue is complex. When you are dealing with human beings and relationships and opinions, etc and there is no 100% Black and White Standard, you get Gray.
I want to do the “right” thing, I believe there is a willing partner on the other end to try to do “a” right thing. I have to pause and re-evaluate.”
RE: “Shouldn’t you issue an equally public statement about how wrong you were in your perceptions and accusations?” Correct, but maybe a presumption is being made that Alex’s allegations, or flat out statements, were wrong. Let’s give him the oppotunioty and time for verification. And if he was wrong, in whole or in part, then let’s give him the grace we received and expect when we wrong. If any character trait I have seen about Alex on this blog, it is this: (i) he makes mistakes, errs and then (ii) he is public in his repentence. In this regard, I admire him and hope he sees the same in me.
Lastly, I would like to say this as I take a break from this blog (let the handclapping and celebrations begin). CC has specfic issues central to its distinctives and over time, it has bred abuse and other actions that are wholly apart from scripture and unlawful. Even the heathens know as much. That cannot be understated and no reasonable person could take issue with this. It is also clear that God’s grace has let CC be used…even as PC was and is still used. I suggest there has been an almost cultic focus on CC, the “Movement”, etc. that has detracted from God and His grace. I will even say SP and PC’s have leveraged this phenomenon. But there are loving and godly pastors and churches in CC that are led by the Spriti and not by the letter of the bylaws and the flawed Moses Model. I don’t know if today they are in the majority or just a remnant. Just because you subscibed to certain standard bylaws doesn;t mean you live by them. After 5 years apart from CC, where abuse was found in CCCM, CC Vista and after healing in a non-CC church, I have moved and now attend a CC where these illnesses are not in practice. I still sit on the board of one CC mega-church and despite periodic insanity (well who doesn’t go off from time to time?), it is Spirit led and the pastor renders himself fully subject to personal and church accountability..else I would not sit as such.
Please be wary as scripture requires, but equal or more measures of grace, wisdom and foregiveness will be required to experience healing. Pitiful it took me so many years (and the vile still bleeds out at times), but then again…that is who I am and where I am at in my walk. If I have learned nothing (and those who know would unanimously agree on that) it is not a pastor, not a church, not a movement…but it is a loving, forgiving, gracious, and good God, who is my Father and Saviour… who still loves me and deals with me despite it all…my strumbles forward and my fleshly racing backward. This is our Lord, Jesus Christ.
The things in CC were never going to be changed by trying to get people to adjust things they’ve been doing for 40 years. That just rarely happens. Such reform is almost always impossible. CC itself teaches that when it bashes other church systems as “old wineskins”.
The only answer is to depart from CC, if you don’t agree with it. That is what I have done personally. What I didn’t do, is “leave quietly”, and I don’t see why I should have to do that. Forgive me for being the skeptic, and please don’t take this as an attack, but I don’t personally believe that anything between Chuck and Alex will amount to any real tangible change. No way.
But what all of this has done is, to break the culture of silence. No more do I see people falling for the “leave quietly” stuff. That is forever in the past. And that is good ground gained.
This blog should remain a watchman type blog, maybe less venom on the personal issues and more on the false teachings of Calvary Chapel. If there are violations, sweeping them under the rug ala the Catholic Church is not the answer. I’m afraid they go to Alex, just check out post # 207. If the motivation was to take the dove away from CCV that still doesn’t address the root issues that plague Calvary which stem from Chuck’s leadership or lack thereof. Even if a best case scenario happens here and Bob repents as does Chuck for his failure to address the problem earlier that doesn’t solve the issue of apostasy, Moses Model leadership, virtually no financial accoutnability and false teaching. Trying to make a change from within the system never works, just ask the Haight Ashbury hippies. I say to Alex forgive your father but don’t give up the overall fight against the Calvary system until there is complete overhaul. In reality though, Calvary will just wax worse in these last days as they are compromising the precious word of God ever more. I have been hurt as well but my trust is in God and not their flawed man organization. Even if Alex gets a satisfactory resolution there are still others that are being manipulated, deceived and abused and God cares for them just like he does for Alex and his brothers. Silence on these type of issues is never good and you shouldn’t make deals with wolves in sheeps clothing.
Amen Motel.
Whatever happens in reagrds to this situation, there are still vulenerable sheep out there that are being deceived, manipulated and abused by the this false apostate organization. Silence is nvere the solution in these cases. We shouldn’t make deals with wolves in sheeps clothing. Watch out for the flattering tongues of men. Post # 207 indicates to me that they got to Alex but remember we cannot be out for our own justice while letting the injustices of others fade away. God cares for all the sheep and their hurts the same he does for Alex and his brothers.
Silence is never the solution when it comes to abuse.
Solomon, agreed. If there is child abuse and/or molestation, it should be handed over to authorities IMMEDIATELY and the person who is accused should be put on leave and away from children until the matter is fully investigated. Same goes for spousal abuse or any criminality, etc.
Regarding spiritual abuse or a pastor being a jerk, etc…the victim should “try” the Matt. 18 thing and if there isn’t a willing partner on the other end, I have no problem, personally, with them warning others and being truthful about what happened to them.
Motel “CC has specfic issues central to its distinctives and over time, it has bred abuse and other actions that are wholly apart from scripture and unlawful.”
“I still sit on the board of one CC mega-church ”
If the “specific issues central to it’s distinctives” can lead to abuse and unlawful actions (If I am reading this correctly), how can you in good faith sit on a board?
Isaiah 40:31 just came to mind
Just realized that Motel said he would not be back…well maybe Sheck will answer this.
So, are you saying that even though “CC has specfic issues central to its distinctives and over time, it has bred abuse and other actions that are wholly apart from scripture and unlawful.””That cannot be understated and no reasonable person could take issue with this. It is also clear that God’s grace has let CC be used…even as PC was and is still used.”
I am having a hard time with this concept.
Are we to believe that God would use what he is opposed to?
That a church model of Gov’t that God opposes, that as you say leads to abuse and other actions contrary to scripture would have God’s blessings? Or are you saying that we can have 90% of the churches with sinning Sr Pastors, faulty church gov’t and God is just so happy to use these churches and Pastors anyway?
So where do we draw the line?
Where is the standards?
Are there any at all?
Should we just assume that a Pastor can be in habitual sin, and all the rest of the leadership, but heck, who cares, surely not God!
Of all the concepts expressed on these blogs, this is the hardest for me to swallow.
Maybe I am misunderstanding something here.
And with that, I will exit quietly for the night.
Hannah: I will relent one time as you are a great part of this blog, have rasied a question that sholuld be answered so I am at least not seem as a hypocrite on your question… most of all, you have a Jewish name.
Not all CC’s live according to each and every one of the “Distinctives” as PC penned them. Hence, my service on one that doesn’t adhere to all of them does not cuase me to stumble or trouble my conscience.
RE: “Are we to believe that God would use what he is opposed to?”
Did not God use the gentiles and God hating idol lovers in the O.T. to correct and teach His chosen people? People do get saved at a Jesse Duplantis meeting. God’s will is both a noun and a will. His purpose will get ‘er done.
I have to go….Sheckstein has some killer latkes and matzoh brie on the stove. Goodnight my goyum friends.
“I’m melting, melting, melting.” The Wicked Witch
“Who would have thought a good little girl like you would destroy my beautiful wickedness.”
Yes, God does use them and He uses us. We are all sinners.
I don’t think anyone is “turning on Alex” for his silence or out to “castigate or hang PC on a tree”. And of course Alex doesn’t have to say anything, but of course many here are a little schocked by all this and so want to hear what the heck happened. I mean just read back through Alex’s articles and it’s understandable. He was very upset and we were supporting him. There was an article that said “Chuck Smith is a liar”, etc. and I think now it has been removed. But this was Alex not too many days ago, and now things have changed, and since it is such a dramatic flip flop of a change – many are wondering and need to be extended grace to grasp what is going on here – obviously. There is some part of me that thinks this is all a joke, and many here have “played the fool for Alex”. I wish you the best Alex in solving your problem through CS with BG. I hope you don’t solicit anyones support anymore for this issue, because this is what happened.
Sue, Alex will share what he’s able to when he can. Instead of reading things into his silence, we need to realize that he’s still processing everything that happened during his meeting. For you to say that people will no longer support him, is selfish and unloving.
WendyC – I did not say that people will no longer support him — I said I hope he doesn’t solicit anyones support anymore for this issue. And I doubt he will because I would think he knows not to now.
WendyC – If you read what I said I didn’t say that people will no longer support him.
oops got a duplicate going somehow
Re: Wide Awake @ # 230
““I’m melting, melting, melting.” The Wicked Witch”
Okay, I hate to admit this but … I didn’t get this. Would you mind explaining what you meant? Apparently, I’m slooooooooooowwwwwww.
Sue what do you mean by “played the fool for Alex”? just wondering
Sue, It seems like it when you step back and read all the posts. I don’t think it was supposed to turn out that way…
Ok everyone…take a deep cleasing breath and hold it awhile. Some of you are so fickle. If you have never been involved in face to face fact-finding, or engaged in a Matthew 18 confrontation, you are unaware of the fact that at times, there seems to be no progress, even steps backward sometimes. Silence is part of the process. I’m a little ashamed of some of you for challenging Alex’s motives and ruminations at this point. It’s a tender process, and that doesn’t assume a sell-out. I know Alex. Most of you only know him from his writing on this blog. You simply cannot judge a man only on the words he shares in cyberspace. We all need to extend the courtesy and grace to each other on here because this is only a two-dimensional medium at best. It has limitations.
Remember Alex’s primary concern is to reconcile with his family. He just stated that he holds true to all the stated allegations concerning bob grenier. In Visalia, we are now seeing a mass exodus from CCV, and serious questions on the street about bob grenier’s character. There appears to be significant change around BG’s feet. Have courage. You cannot be as vile as bob grenier for three decades and not have your past come back to haunt you. Geoff, Alex, and Paul Grenier are just a few of bob grenier’s victims. God hears their cries. Don’t you go and doubt it with empty speculations.
Grateful…it is good that you are slow on this one. As time plays out, you may begin to understand.
God will be glorified in every way. We agreed to pray for Alex and the others and until we hear from Alex, shouldn’t we continue to pray? For a year we watched this blog and one thing I know is that God called Alex and is using him for this purpose. Alex and his wife and kids have sacrificed much and we need to respect that.
God WILL be glorified…
500,000 hits to this website in the last one and a half years shows the significance of this issue. It certainly does deserve ongoing prayer!
This entire site was dedicated to exposing abuse within CC. It ended up way broader than just Visalia. There are numerous posts that make claims about the sinister nature of people other than Bob Grenier: CS, Rosales, Rolph, Brodersen, Ries, and others. Now that Alex has drawn people who were otherwise uninvolved into thinking this way about these people (which has undoubtably happened), if he has had a major change of heart he should make an equally public statement to restore some balance and perspective to the situation. It is great if he realized things were not as bad as he first thought. It is wonderful if new info came to light that restored, to some degree, his trust in the aforementioned people. This is all cause for rejoicing. But in this case, he should make some adjustment or recantation of his multiple incendiary comments.
And I’m not saying this has to come right away, but it should come as soon as possible. Something as public as this deserves some public closure. People don’t need juicy details. These wouldn’t be good for our souls anyways. However, whatever is prudent and pertinent to the things the complaints on this blog should be dealt with in some sort of statement. This is the responsibility that comes with making things so public.
*By “complaints made on this blog” I mean the complaints aired in the blog posts, not everything all the commenters complain about!
Gandy
Alex has spoken. When it’s time to say more, he will say more. He was given a different perspective in the meeting which he didn’t know before. So he has to adjust his approach in this matter. He gave his word not to divulge what was discussed. We have to respect Alex’s judgment that what he has agreed to do is to the best interest of his family. I have an idea what it is but I don’t want to ruin what is set in progress that Alex feel is the right thing to do.
I was partly right that Alex would agree to keep quiet about the matter after the meeting. It may be best if we give both parties time and room to work things out.
Gandy said, “This entire site was dedicated to exposing abuse within CC.”
There is one small correction here. You left of the “V.” CCV not CC. This blog was for the sole purpose of exposing Bob Grenier.
False. Look around, Justice. There are pages dedicated solely to Raul Ries, Bob Coy, and Calvary Chapel in general, etc.
Gandy, I get that, but the “original” purpose was to deal with Bob Grenier. I know all the other stuff is on here. ALL of that came from dealing with Bob. He is the beginning of this whole process. Alex did not go after Chuck or any of the other folks as a primary target. He has been focused on Bob and as a bi-product of that, exposure of others have come out. It’s sad, it’s a mess and my heart goes out to all who have been directly affected by Bob Grenier and others in the Church at large. When Alex went down to meet with Chuck, it was about Bob. I’m not trying to be the enemy here. Just clarifying what the primary purpose of this blog was.
My apologies if I’m wrong.
Justice Prevails-”There is one small correction here. You left of the “V.” CCV not CC. This blog was for the sole purpose of exposing Bob Grenier.”
===================================================================
Then IMO, this blog should have been titled “Calvary Chapel Visalia Abuse”, not “Calvary Chapel abuse”
In January, the threads became about CC abuse outside of Visalia.
A suggestion…If there was no intention of going outside Visalia, then the “comments” should have been turned off when these other threads were put up., and this site should have been a journal of sorts for Alex. I personally think that because the site was called “Calvary Chapel Abuse” it drew many from other Calvary Chapels (myself included)
I believe that as people responded, Alex as I said several times before, graciously gave others a forum for dialogue. So I am thankful for that, but when you open up the door, you have to expect others to walk in. It is the nature of blogs.
I get the feeling that we will be hearing less from Alex here, and as his mission is accomplished in his own situation, there is less need from the broader aspect addressing CC’s as a whole. And I think it became a legal issue. Thats usually the reason.
Since Alex is not here to either support or refute what I have said (or others) even if it reaches beyond what he has agreed to CS not to talk about, we have no way of knowing, so we are left to speculate.
For those that feel we are owed anything, I disagree.
We all came on here because Alex gave a forum to do so.
We should be grateful to him that we had a place to share, help others, find fellowhip and heal. Maybe it is up to someone else to now carry the torch, if his mission is done.
Alex,
I hope that what I said was not taken the wrong way.
Thank you again.
I would really like to talk to you one day.
I don’t know if your phone number is public.
I continue to pray daily for you, your wife and your family.
You have more chutspa than the average man.
Ask Motel what that is.
He will know.
PS Motel-
Your latkas and Matzoh Brei doesn’t compare with my brisket.
Bless us all, bless Chuck Smith, bless CCV, bless the Pope, bless Obama ——–
Hannah – I would love to try your brisket, and motel – I love your humor.
I’ve been reading this blog and have seen the negative comments, but also the many encouraging ones. I don’t presume to speak for anyone, but I think the negativity and “pot shots” come from a place of fear. It’s easy to stay wrapped in the safety of the anger and rage of past hurts (I know from experience), but so hard to let it go and trust that peace will fill the empty hole.
Some people have made Alex their champion, and it’s hard for them to see him step back and prayerfully consider all the options.
Alex, please know there are many of us on your blog that are praying with you and for you.
WendyC- You are absolutely right.
I have been reading Randy Alcorns “If God is good” and the last hour read about some very painful situations some have gone through which was necessary for God’s will to be done. I wanted to write some of it, but it would take too long and I don’t think anyone would read that much
I for one would be thrilled if everyone here would buy that book and we can discuss it chapter by chapter.
Maybe Alex can open another thread for this book study.
The insight I have been getting, just in the last 2 hours relate so much to all that is being discussed. And I think God can use it for us to grow. That’s what it is all about, right? Eternity.
Complete Title
“If God Is Good-Faith in the midst of suffering and evil” Randy Alcorn
Sue:
Wendy, I agree
We all know this site was about Alex and his abuse and problems within CCV at the beginning. It turned into something more so I see people just very confused to what they can contribute now. What happens next? Stop posting? Maybe there shouldn’t be a blog here anymore since things have changed? Maybe just have this site just to warn and nothing more. Maybe have a different outlook on the whole situation. This is just my perspective on things.
Many try and speculate from everyone’s postings what there motives or sincerity toward Alex are which I feel is wrong. Alex is not stonewalling anyone There are a lot of hurt and confused people that’s all. Alex was the leader in the blogs we all followed the lead then the hurt ones are now left in a daze… but I feel for all that were..
Lets just continue to pray for Alex, CS, BG and CCV because they still need our prayers
Since the radical change this blog has taken due to the meeting with Chuck, I am only saying this for me. I think it was a mistake for some of us to share with Alex the things they went through in CC experiences. This is how it worked over at Phoenix Preacher. It was a safe place to find support, and then at one point, it turned. And anyone that had a strong thing to say, got shunned immediately. I see the same pattern beginning here. I’m sorry if this is offensive, and I know I have had no part in this blog in the past, but I am speaking anonymously as one that gave a testimony to Alex privately, and now I regret having done so.
This is how CC works. They will find a way to re-victimize the victim. One way or another. Lo and behold it happened again!
I know we learn from our pain and suffering I have become stronger myself through enduring so much. But God is faithful and will take care of everything he has showed me so much in the past few years.
@262
I haven’t been around these blogs that long, but I see that CCA and PP both have different tastes.
A different Alex-
Don’t come to any conclusions.
God is in control.
He is always working behind the scenes.
By the way, the entire book I mentioned is available on Amazon when you search the book. So you can read it all through Amazon.
Have a blessed day everyone.
Hard to not come to conclusions, when a shroud of silence has fallen. But whatever. I know how CC works. This is modus operandi.
Hannah, re your #260 I think that’s a great idea! Maybe we could have a set time that works for everyone, and we can discuss what it means to us. If Alex doesn’t open a new thread, maybe we can make a FB group specifically for discussing the book.
I came to this site after reading the Lighthouse article and was concerned because Bob is one of the SP’s on my CC’s “oversight board”. I am truly confused with the silence but understand it to a degree. My discernment level has kicked into high gear, but my situation will probably be dealing with how finances are dealt with in a CC atmosphere and using the Moses model not the preaching of God’s word.
Re: Quickgreen71
Glad you found the site and hope the info helps you.
Looking into the lack of accountability for leadership and finances will keep you busy for a long time, and open your eyes to so much more.
Re: (A different) Alex @ #262
“Since the radical change this blog has taken due to the meeting with Chuck, I am only saying this for me. I think it was a mistake for some of us to share with Alex the things they went through in CC experiences. ”
I hear your concern, though I think you will find that your testimony is safe with Alex. He has mine, as well. We’ve heard from a couple of people on here who know Alex, that it will make sense in time, but time is necessary right now. Alex has demonstrated integrity in how he has been transparent and and quick to admit when he thinks he’s been wrong. Because of this track record, I can wait and see.
I’ve had a CC pastor tell me I should just trust him in his backroom deals and be fine with the silence on issues that directly affected me and my family; but he did not have a good reason to keep things silent, nor did he have a track record of transparency and being quick to own his sins. I would not trust that man, or anyone else without mitigating circumstances. I happen to think Alex may have mitigating circumstances on this one.
Seems reasonable to be skeptical, but I also think I have reason to wait and judge the fruit later.
Re: (A different) Alex @ 262
“This is how it worked over at Phoenix Preacher. It was a safe place to find support, and then at one point, it turned. And anyone that had a strong thing to say, got shunned immediately. I see the same pattern beginning here.”
Alex doesn’t get offended easily, he doesn’t appear to be bothered by people airing their honest concerns, he doesn’t seem to need us to boost him up with praise and acceptance, he can handle if we disagree with him, he’s patient when we don’t get the point of what he’s doing or saying, and he seems willing to accept new perspectives when appropriate. I’ve not seen him shun anyone except Jim/Who who wouldn’t abide by the standard he set himself.
So I don’t see the same pattern beginning here.
I’m no expert about the PP, my little exposure to it left me with the impression that they have developed more of a small group relationship, where they hear each others’ “voices.” That comes from years of posting together, building history and the fact that some of them either know each other or have met face-to-face. They can hear each other in a way that we cannot.
When I read PP, it may come across to me as caustic or insecure at times, but that is not necessarily reality, and it may not be what they hear from each other. But the few times I’ve seen them comment on the CCabuse blog, I was surprised at how I thought some misjudged what we sounded like on here. But then I probably hear these posters with different ears than they do.
I definitely think these blogs are two different animals.
‘Righteousness, or morality, has been exalted to the supreme position, and little is heard of godliness. Like the Pharisees of old, there have been many amongst us who were shocked and scandalized by certain acts of unrighteousness, but who failed to realize that their own self righteousness denoted an ungodliness which was infinitely more reprehensible in the eyes of God.
The order has been reversed: morality has taken precedence over religion, unrighteousness is regarded as a more heinous crime than ungodliness.’ M. Lloyd-Jones.
Was Alex after his own justice only? What about the other brethen that have been hurt and decieved by Calvary? Read Ezekial 2:16-21, we are our brothers keeper. Alex may reconcile with his family and thats good but there is a bigger picture to all this and that is the abuse ridden culture fostered by the Calvary Chapel way of doing things via the Moses Model. Seems to me Alex had a huge axe to grind with Calvary and now that there is some compromise with the mothership he has made an about face. I highly doubt that Chuck is now going to remove the Moses Model or call all Calvary’s to open up their financial books on account of his meeting with Alex. Calvary is an apostate system that needs to be exposed and Alex making nice with Chuck isn’t going to make Calvary any healthier. I would hate to think there is going to be monetary gain for Alex.
Men like Chuck Smith need to be avoided as we are told so by the scriptures regarding men who use the gospel as a form of gain. If Alex gets what he wants out of all this then I guess little else matters. Bob Grenier will still be Bob Grenier and Chuck Smith will still be Chuck Smith, The Moses Model will still be the Moses Model, Calvary pastors will still live high on the hog while the sheep will continue to be fleeced, there will still be no financial accountability. So in thend, what was really accomplished. This is bigger than Alex, this what Ezekial 34 talks about, the fleecing of the flock by the false wicked shepards. God is not pleased.
Solomon said, “Was Alex after his own justice only? What about the other brethen that have been hurt and decieved by Calvary?”
No. And, in time, I hope to address that issue. You may not like the answer, but I think there is “something” that can be done to help and I think a better explanation of the reality of the situation will help also.
Unfortunately, it’s not something that is finished. The cake is baking. I can’t pull it out of the oven yet or it will go flat. You’ll have to wait.
Again, I understand the skepticism and distrust, etc. But, there’s not much I can do about that this moment w/o it being the wrong thing at the wrong time, IMO.
Solomon, Hi. I think Alex has just asked us for a bit of time. Let’s give him a bit. His meeting was only last Friday – that is less than a week. Maybe the Lord is using this to build some patience in us.
I, personally, have a vision for how “the other brethren that have been hurt” can be helped by making some modifications to this site and getting the backing of some of the independent CC’s, but again, we’re in the early stages here and I don’t want to be presumptuous.
I still care deeply about those who have been hurt by an individual CC pastor. It’s wrong, shouldn’t happen. I don’t like the Moses Model, I think it’s a bad idea and I hope more CC’s will drop it.
I also think it’s a good thing to have transparent finances and I VERY MUCH KNOW that each CC should consider adopting Reforms to help protect Children recommended by leading Child Abuse Advocate Kelly Clark.
I am trying my best to handle a complex and complicated situation…and I prolly won’t handle it perfectly, but I’ll try to do the right thing as much as I can know what that is.
Everyone, please believe me on this. Alex did meet with Chuck, nothing was really accomplished….yet. Alex was asked not to fire up on the blog again until he (Chuck Smith) had a chance to deal with the issues discussed. Alex isn’t selling out or giving in, he is in the middle of it, like he said. Technically the meeting hasn’t ended so no definitive response can be given, because there isn’t one yet.
NA, that’s a good way to put it. The “meeting” is not a finished work yet.
I’m not going to get too specific and I’m not going to make a final decision on which direction to go until we reach the end of the process.
It won’t be months, more like a couple of weeks.
“Grinding the sausage” is prolly a more masculine metaphor than “Baking the cake”
Good explanation. Thanks, Alex & Not Alone.
The Wheels of Justice Grind Exceedingly Slow. But They Grind Exceedingly Fine.
Encouraging prayer and patience to continue for all involved. Justice tempered with mercy is a precious gift for us in our trespasses, as well as for those who trespass against us. As one who has experienced much anger and hurt, this principle has been a healing balm.
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
Thank you Anne.
Thank you Alex for sharing.
Solomon – I think alot falls into the category of “accepting what we cannot change”. At least for me it does. I think there is alot of wisdom in the words “take care of ourselves”. That is something we can do.
Alex, do you have a copy of these:
Reforms to help protect Children recommended by leading Child Abuse Advocate Kelly Clark.
Not Alone,
Just gotta say …
You have a gift. A gift of being able to see through the fog and state clearly the truth, at least that’s what it looks like from my perspective.
Just wanted to tell you I appreciate your boldness, willingness to speak, and ability to “see.”
Grateful
Think Not Alone has the gift as well
Alex, I think you need to go to the PP and start some good Political “talks”!
Shaun, good question. I have a meeting Sept. 26th to continue to work on that with Kelly. I will prolly have the Recommendations at the close of that meeting or soon after.
He is very happy that Churches would consider voluntarily implementing the reforms as they are proven to help cut down on abuses. Nothing will eliminate all abuses, but these are practical things that the leaders in this field have identified as decreasing the chances of a kid getting hurt in a church/trust setting.
Rather than giving up and saying “we can’t stop ALL the abuses”…IMO, we should do all the experts say we can do in a simple and practical manner to “try” and stop as many as possible.
Ron, LOL
I think I’ll pass for the sake of all involved 
…ok, maybe just a little
So you’re making sausage cake?? That sounds AMAZING.
Alex,
I am praying for you. It took years to get this far, it would be unlikely that something would be immediate right after a meeting with someone who has given you reason to lose trust in a system full of CC’s that have abused the trust and pastor or leader relationship with others for many reasons. Of course, we all would like instant answers, that is human nature, but it is often just not the reality of things. Still praying for your wisdom and guidance.
I personally think you have been far too hurt and shown far too much empathy (far different than mere sympathy) for so many and opened communication for many, clearly not just you. That character shows it would be more than likely that it would grieve your heart far too much to not have real concern for all that happens that is abusive there to many. Thank you for the posts you have shared and may God give you encouragement and strength as you continue in your endeavor.
Gandy, LOL.
Thanks Cindy.
Sorry if I was being a DB earlier. I think I get it now. Press on!
Yeah Gandy…you’re ruining our reputation here over at the PP
When Michael said it would take 2 weeks I figured he knew more than we did and so it has been confirmed…
Hannah, is that first sentence as witty as I think it is? If so, well done.
Gandy…I dunno
Pjay, that is an awesome quote.
It is akin to what I see as the “false piety” of the modern day Pharisee.
“Look at that SINNER drinking a beer! They are going to hell!”
All while the fake pious modern day Pharisee is unjust in nearly every way.
still praying for your meetings Alex.
… This blog has brought wisdom, strength, and unity for my soul! I too found this site by searches. What “relief” it is that we are not alone!!
This may have been intended for CC’s, but it has opened a door for other sheep who have been abused etc. This is a vital blog for some of our group who read only!!! Why just read ? Because of fear from the church we’ve all left. We are in our infancy stages of bringing our issues to the people.
Thank you to all that have shared pieces of wisdom, we are deeply grateful for those who are very transparent …
We will continue to read with thirsty hearts …
Sheep need advocates too !!!
WendyC-
Sorry I missed responding to your post yesterday RE: book study.
It is up to Alex. Not sure it relates to this blog and I don’t “do” Facebook!
It would be a positive direction for us all.
I saw that there is a workbook that can be used with it.
I may, even just for my family suggest to my husband for us to do this together, because suffering and evil, IMO, is what draws many people away from God.
Menwhocare-
Thank you for the encouragement.
Sometimes you wonder if you are doing others a favor, or being a hindrance in sharing.
You do make a good point of the “fear factor” involved in all this.
Church” is supposed to be a place of comfort and like-mindedness.
Sometimes it seems anything but.
Hannah- what a pretty name! My daughters name is Hanna.
I have been reading your posts here and appreciate your balanced view on these
issues and your compassion.
I have not been abused in a church because I have not stayed long enough in a church to get to that place, but I did see things surface that brought warning flags, such as, false
teachings. I am a pretty skiddish individual and do not trust easily, so I research alot on the issues concerning the church.
The problem I see is at the head – these churches (and not only CCs) have become organizational money machines. Many start out with good intentions but end up becoming too big for their britches- you can’t control all the garbage that gets in.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Many are money makers and produce books out of the whazoo; conferences to keep it going; leadership that is unaccounted for and leadership that is not trained. One thing I have also seen is that “one can give a good talk, but one will not always walk the walk”- Manipulation is key to keep those in check and keep those in the church. I appreciate Alex’s dedication and know that he is doing the best in this situation- therefore I do not hold judgment on him, but CCs I will wait and see. The Catholic Church has had years of experience in manipulation and do it very well- keeping the flock under their thumbs. I for one do not intend to stick around for any manipulation by those who are given clear warning in the OT and NT not to fleece the flock.
And this is the lesson I have learned: if you know that their is abuse within your church or your church organization- you don’t have to stay- you do not have to feel guilty about leaving. It is hard for us as believers to do because we want to think the best of those who are leading us and are our pastors. The Lord never intends for us to be in a church that is abusive or in false teaching.
Alex @ #287 – when you get those, would you post them here or email them to me.
Thanks.
Post #299
Hannah,
“Sometimes you wonder if you are doing others a favor, or being a hindrance in sharing.”
you nailed it !
I feel the same in some of my posts wish we could have a delete button.:)
Not that I am untruthful but sometimes just because it is the truth doesn’t mean we have to say it.
“suffering and evil, IMO, is what draws many people away from God.”
I feel at times I am guilty of getting all caught up in others suffering and maybe make things worse….Maybe because I suffer as well and think I am helping out. Dunno
Alex, You got mail!
Alex,
We love you and Any and are proud of you. You are fighting the good fight, as I have already told you offline. You are doing the right thing.
I am also grateful for the post at PP and the sweet and encouraging comments you got by some people there. You’ve grown a lot through the last year, however painful it may have been. I have grown a lot, too!
God knows and He sees everything. Bob can’t run from Him and neither can anyone else! God sees the oppression of His people. It’s a blessing to see it all come together. Romans 8:28 is the verse that keeps coming to me!
God is so good, and He is so faithful.
I know God is working. We may not see it but He is. I’m hearing things and the wheels are turning.
I feel God wrapping his arms around me right now as well prayer is working I can feel it.
Summer and EWO – You are both right. I’m so glad things are moving in the right direction. It took Alex a lot of determination and perseverance on his part. It’s coming together. God will bring His justice, even if we aren’t alive to see it. This “fight” is noble and justt!
FG
Everything you have said I have said here on this blog!
I identify with it all. Money machines, trust issues, leadership issues, fleecing the flock, etc.
In that Alcorn book, at the end (finished it today) he talks about coming alongside someone who has experienced loss. Talks about the dad of the columbine student (the Christian girl who was shot), and how people would say “Romans 8:28″..he was not ready to hear that…also how in Ch 2 in Job, how at first the friends were just there for Job, and only later started blaming him. There are many hurting and have no where to go. I was alone for almost 2 years before I found the PP and realized I was not alone. Now here. The love that Jesus wants us to show is the same love that has the time to share other’s burdens. Most are too busy to do this.
We are all in a different process of healing. And recovery. And as God led me to this book, I am realizing that God has a greater purpose for suffering than I had imagined. So it is good to get to this point, but it required and still does a lot of submission, repenting and letting God knock me down so he can raise me up. Some days are easier than others. It wasn’t only the church, many other trials. I highly recommend this book (you would think I was Randy Alcorns wife!)-I think it came at the right time. So hopefully, it will be with less anger that I share, and with more hope that there was a plan by God to make lemonaide out of lemons. I think as long as one has hope, it gives them a future. Reminds me of that Jeremiah verse..”.For I know the plans I have for you…..
EWO”I feel at times I am guilty of getting all caught up in others suffering and maybe make things worse….Maybe because I suffer as well and think I am helping out. Dunno”
Maybe you have the gift of mercy.
Thats a good thing
I think as long as there is a balance. It took awhile to learn that. I am one to usually talk without thinking much!
I think the bottom line is hope.
And our hope is not in this life but eternally.
So that puts things in better perspective for me.
Sometimes, I am too earthy bound, and not nearly as heavenly bound as I ought to be.
Even with this situation with Alex.
There is the immediate, and the eternal.
We have no way of knowing how God is going to use anything for eternity.
And eternity is a heck of a long time.
Giving Hope is :
H- Helping
O-other
P-people
E-every day
Good words, Hannah. Thank you.
Thank you Greatful and Eyes Wide Open, that was very kind. I pray that it is true.
Hannah – yes hope is vital. Paul said we need “faith, hope, and love”- of course, the greatest of these is love. We can have that hope because we have Christ, otherwise we are hopeless. Despite all that is happening inside the church, the good thing is that the Holy Spirit shows us what is wrong and in that we have choices. We can either as a victim get bitter or keep being abused OR allow the Lord to heal our hearts; be confident of His love towards us and His ability to keep us. This is the tricky part: being able to stand firm against wrong and not be a part of it, but being able to love in the midst of it.
Also, for the abuser, he or she can continue to quench the Holy Spirit and His rebuke and suffer the consequences or turn from his or her sin and live righteously (note that I do not mean perfectly).
I am having a beer right now. So delicious!
The last quote #314 speaks volumes about this group.
George, the irony of your statement speaks volumes.
1 Corinthians 10: 28But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; 29I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience? 30If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; 33just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.
George:
John 2:9-10
Jesus turned the water into “Choice” or “good” wine. In that day and age, the “choice” wine was about the same alcohol content as a beer.
Bible says don’t be a “drunkard”…don’t get drunk with much wine, etc.
It doesn’t say one has to avoid having a beer…but I’m sure some would interpret it that way.
And, some Modern Day Pharisees would chide someone for having a beer, all the while they’d steal from their church, abuse their children, lie, manipulate, hurt people, etc and not bat and eye…and those in “leadership” wouldn’t bat an eye, either.
But, “Don’t have a beer! You’re a sinner! You’re going to hell!”
See the point George? Was that what Jesus our Christ was all about? False Piety?
Nah.
The Jesus I know was the “friend of sinners”. He ate and drank with the tax collectors, the non-religious leaders, the everymen and everywomen etc.
Jesus didn’t get drunk or advocate drunkenness, certainly…however, I doubt He would have turned his nose up at a person having a beer or two in moderation.
Now, Jesus would’ve turned over some tables of those making money off of God and He would have roundly rebuked “YOU SNAKES!” to the false pious Religious Leaders who were unjust in every way, but outwardly pious (and prolly tea-totelers).
Matthew 23:23-28
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Luke 18:11-14
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Do some of you even read the same bible I’m reading? I don’t see how some of these false pious attitudes and false perceptions take root and are so pervasive in some circles.
God, have mercy on me a sinner.
I will second that on a cider ale at my favorite Irish Restaurant.
I would say for myself I would not drink around those who have a problem with
alcohol – so not to cause any to stumble, but I sure love to go out with my husband
and enjoy it once in awhile. : )
Alex said “Do some of you even read the same bible I’m reading? I don’t see how some of these false pious attitudes and false perceptions take root and are so pervasive in some circles.”
The answer to your question is they simply ignor it. There is one word that these abusers and false shepherds like very much and it is the word “submit”. If people don’t like that word then they are shown the door.
Willy, I have noticed that dynamic in some CC circles.
Submission to God sometimes takes on the skin of submission to a fallible man…whose will can often be wrong.
Sola Scriptura, a Philosophy that CC seems to adhere to academically, often comes into conflict with the error of will of the particular Senior Pastor CC Authority.
Our “loyalty” and Submission should be to God first and foremost…and should trump the CC Senior Pastor when said CC SP is in error and acting contrary to Scripture.
Gotta say, it’s Sunday, only 5 days to go, and I’m not very hopeful.
I haven’t gotten a call from Bob Grenier confessing, repenting and wanting to try to reconcile and make amends.
I also haven’t received a return phone call or email from Chuck Smith’s attorney who I left a message with Friday late morning/early afternoon.
Hopefully I’ll be hearing something soon…however, the skeptical side of me is starting to take over…
I’ve been down this path with Gary Ruff, Raul Ries and David Rosales before.
It’s starting to look a bit familiar. I hope I’m wrong.
Do not be weary in doing well, Alex. You have come this far, don’t give up.
Many are continuing to hope and pray for a positive outcome in this.
I am sorry Alex.
Keep up with patience and know that we are praying and know that He
will work out all things for good. Remember it is in His hands.
Alex-
I will continue to pray for you.
I thought of these verses and wanted to share them.
Jeremiah 23:24
Luke 12:2-3
Have you fasted?
I would be willing to fast tomorrow with anyone who would like to join me.
I can do juices/liquids.
There is much power in fasting and prayer.
My last in moderation!
Lord, we come before you, praying for Your will to be done.
We know Your will, because we know Your Word.
You are light, and in You there is no darkness.
The light of Your son reveals the darkness.
Please hear the cries of the hearts of Your children.
The deep desires to expose the darkness, and do Your will.
You see all things, you know all things.
Please, by the work of Your Holy Spirit, do a work in these men’s hearts, so they will be reconciled to you, and free to worship you in Spirit and in Truth.
For the sake of Your name, for the sake ofYour holiness, for the sake of their eternal life.
We can’t do anything apart from You.
Please give peace where Your peace is the only hope we have.
We rest in You.
In God’s Time
A baby is conceived and comes to earth… in God’s time
A seeking soul finds spiritual birth…in God’s time
Flowers bloom so beautifully in spring…in God’s time
The birds build their nest as they sing…in God’s time
We feel the evening breeze softly blow…in God’s time
And assurance is given that He loves us so…in His time
Yet, when troublesome times come and skies are gray,
Too often we complain.
A man named Job did this one day,
And his life was never the same -
Until he awakened and began to see,
It was working for his own good.
He bowed his knee and finally
At last he understood…
Shall we accept good and not the bad?
The happy times and not the sad?
All things are from God’s own hand,
And are working according to His plan…In His time
So, when the storms of life linger
With dark clouds all about,
Let us look to our Saviour
Knowing the sun will come out…In His Time
May we trust Him whatever comes our way -
His grace is sufficient for us each day.
Then we’ll understand fully as time goes by,
When one day we enter the kingdom on high…In God’s Time.
Alex.
Expectations may or may not be met in this season. Hopes may be realized or may have to be deferred for another day.
But know this. You have gained a heart of wisdom and have been enabled to exhibit the meekness of wisdom to others.
You have learned to lead and love others even when you cannot produce an outcome that pleases everybody.
Nobody can deliver a man bound in sin apart from that person entrusting themselves to the Deliverer in repentance. A negotiator cannot speak for God and His people to engage a man bound in sin. Only a prophet willing to pay the price can warn and plead with another to produce fruits worthy of repentance that accord with the command to love God and love their brother.
You have given and acted in accordance with your word as you fear the One who has commanded by His Word.
You have been a vessel of His light, irregardless of how others may or may not respond.
God will continue to lead you in wisdom.
You have given a measure of trust to others in the grace of God. That is godliness.
Withholding further trust from those who refuse to exercise the responsibility of gaining that trust through action does not equate with skepticism.
Do not forget to drink deeply from the wells of joy during the process.
Blessings,
Alex…I’m going to say that I didn’t hold out even a 99.99 % chance that bob grenier would admit any fault. If he eventually does, then in my mind, it would be one of the greatest miracles I have ever witnessed in over 30 years.
Knowing the dynamics certainly holds open the feelings of scepticism. It’s a little early to lose complete hope and transition toward a different tactic. I don’t trust anything bob grenier says or does but those who have power greater than him, still could sway the direction of things very quickly. We’ll see.
God is working Alex. Finding and committing to being apart of a body of believers is still difficult for me and my family. My wife is a really good gage for judging whether we should stay or keep trying, so……here it was the first morning at a new church not more then 2 minutes into his intro the pastor name drops BG. Not a vital place in a story to drop a name and it was not dropped with revoltion, like it should have been, but with admiration or just plain mutual respect.
That was a huge blow. “I was singled out by none other then Pastor Bob Grenier” like it was an honor. My wife leaned over and whispered in my ear “should we just leave now?” She knows me to well. I tried to remain open minded and listen to the rest of the service but it was hard when most of it felt like an infomercial. I looked around and wondered if there were any x CCV ers in the congregation and I spotted a few.
X CC people at Neighborhood Church what do you think about your pastor name dropping BG with anything but discust? Don’t think that Pastor Steve Harms doesn’t know what Pastor Bob Grenier has done to his flock or continues to do, even the most country bumpkin pastor here knows what BG is acused of. Yes we are to love everyone but we are not to accept evil or at the very least rub elbows with it.
That was a clear sign to ME and my wife that we can not put our family under the leadership of a pastor who sees BG as someone to be admired. The Lord is good and he has saved us again.
For you x CCV there I would question you as to why you are willing to accept that your pastor has done nothing less then the FOB, which is give Bob a pass and continued respect. If Steve harms believes the Grenier boys then he would not have had such admiration in his voice. Did you share your story with your pastor? Are you willing to sit there, again, and do nothing?
What do you think CCABUSE bloggers?
It’s one thing to be a pastor and ignore what BG has done for the cost of standing up in the town you live in is great. But to name drop BG because he is a fellow chaplain IS supporting BG in my book.
It is very disapointing.
Did this happen today? I’m going to have to talk to all my friends there. I feel bad for all of them. Don’t worry, they will stand up for what is right. Exactly what context did he mention him and why did he have to say his name, anyways?
Just reminds me satans at work , if the pastor did mention BG and knows whats going on then that’s not right.
Doesn’t amaze me one bit in the town of Visalia
NA-What do you think CCABUSE bloggers?
I think it’s a good thing God showed you the truth on your first visit, so you ought to consider yourself blessed.
(That is the spiritual side of me talking)
Did this happen today?
Thanks for warning us NA
It happened this morning at the 10:30 service.
I’ll call Steve Harms, we have mutual friends. I don’t see how he can be ignorant of the situation, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt until I contact him.
Alex, hang in there, been praying for you daily and will continue to do so.
The context in a nutshell was this. Pastor Harms decided to attend a ceremony at 1st Assembly honoring law enforcement and firefighters in Visalia. He wore his chaplain uniform and was added to the other uniformed servants up front being honored. He was then addressed form the pulpit by the host all the while his intent was to go to this service and be seated in the back row and just blend. But was recognized 1st as a uniformed servant and added to the rest and then as a pastor and called out by the event host.
The event host was Pastor Bob Grenier. Do you see how I can tell the whole story without name dropping Bob Grenier? It isn’t a vital part of the story. Makes me wonder how much contact Harms has with BG to use his name in a service. Why not say the Pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia Bob Grenier. No he used his name like it mentioned him often or like everyone should know it because BG is such a popular man about town. Either way it gave me the red flag creeps and I have learned that the Lord does not warn me like this just to mess with me. I believe my Lord has a sense of humor but I don’t think he was exercising it in this situation.
Either way the moral or relevance to the sermon was lost on me, maybe someone who attended could shed some light on that for me. Harm named dropped BG and told his whole story of being honored for what reason?
Oh, so Chuck Smith DID bring an attorney to the meeting? It figures. Here you show up unguarded, hoping to have a heart to heart and Chuck brings a lawyer. Because we all know what’s more important than the truth–protecting the franchise!
These guys operate like the free masons or the KKK- good old boy club! They protect and cover each like frat brothers… Very little integrity left it seems. Their mamon system is sick and corrupt!
Gandy and OACCG,
Did I miss something?
I don’t remember any info given that Alex was without lawyer and CS was.
When the Dino Cardelli victims of child abuse and child sexual abuse turn 18, lookout.
That’s the age the victims can seek Civil Legal Action vs. Calvary Chapel.
Alex, re your number 350: Does this imply that you and your brothers can do likewise?
I just want to say that I think you have been handling yourself so well. It must be very difficult emotionally, after all this time, to wait for a reply/response over this important meeting. I really admire how you have kept your word, even though we would love to hear what all happened. I respect what you are doing. Continue to take the high road, as you wait and then, if need be take further action.
Hey Visalians, there having a award ceremony for one of the pastors today….
http://visalia.kmph.com/news/events/62501-new-fire-chaplain-joins-visalia-fire-department
This = Post # 348
Once a CC Guru said:
“These guys operate like the free masons or the KKK- good old boy club! They protect and cover each like frat brothers… Very little integrity left it seems. Their mamon system is sick and corrupt!”
This
#349 Hannah – I do remember this. Alex said this back on Aug. 30 thread. I won’t show up with an Attorney. If Bob Grenier is man enough to show up, he better not bring his Attorney.
OK Sue. I advised to go with an attorney.
You know, I have been pondering this issue for the last week.
That want to be able to handle conflict by just sitting down and being “real”.
Remember when a handshake among men was good enough to close the deal?
We want to believe the best, that these people would be led by God in all they do, and that our best interest is important..especially to another believer. That they would not have to have 2 witnesses, that you could sit down and dialogue..but the reality is that they are always covering their “you know whats”, and then when we doubt them, it is as if WE are the ones not acting Godly.
Why would one want to lay it all out on the table without legal representation?
I do hope Alex had some witnesses.
wow..I deleted a whole paragraph after my first sentence. Sorry.
They..meaning us…those who have grievances would think that issues can be resolved with bthe grieved parties best interests at stake..with genuine concern about the injured.
But in what I know about issues involving big CC’s…it is really no difference than how the “world” reacts, and protects themselves.
Bob G says he is …Vacationing in Seattle…date Sept 16 & on Sept 18 he says …Great morning in Seattle this I found on his Twitter page.
I’m a neighbor of his & hell will freeze over before Bob admits anything as far as the abuse in my book.He is a creepy little man & to lie bothers him not a bit
.We have a bit of a problem in the neighborhood & it has been going on for several months now & when it comes to Bob & Gail it bothered them not at all to lie thru their teeth about the problem.Bob was called out about his abuse of his boys for all to hear as well as all being told of this web page so they could have a look see.Bob & Gail were not happy campers at all about this info being thrown out there.Both of them shot back with lie after lie about the accuser which I know for a fact is not the truth.I wouldn’t be surprised if Bob wasn’t behind this big powwow that took place.I’m quite sure he wants this web page to disappear as fast as possible.
I watched him try to intimidate the accuser, but the accuser is a tough cookie & not a bit afraid of this creepy little man known as Bob G.I’m a friend of the accuser & know for a fact that Bob has not a chance of beating the accuser down..no way ..no how!
I wish for Bob to lose his shirt, for he deserves nothing for his horrible conduct on this earth ..he is such a hypocrite & deserves nothing good to come to him!
Very nice Carol, I wish for Bob the same.
Having two or three witnesses is a bit different than having lawyers come to a meeting like this.
I did get a return phone call today from Chuck’s attorney.
We’ll see what happens.
I should have an update by the weekend.
It’s a mixed bag so far and too early for me to form a final opinion. The call was a net positive, so we’ll see what happens.
Still hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
CC is being sued as a defendant in the Idaho child sex abuse case. Alex was to meet wioth PC to discuss, among other things, the church’s policy and postion on child sex abuse. As such, it is discoverable in the Idaho case if discussed. So an attorney being present to represent CCis not all that unusual and maybe the insurance co. (which provides church represwentation in that suit) required an attorney present.
So? Santono needed Tom, the consiglieri
That’s part of the complexity of the issue as Motel accurately points out.
Hannah, there’s very much a business and legal aspect to all of this, rather than purely Spiritual and pristine.
I used to think that was necessarily wrong and bad, but I might be wrong, it might be just how it is in our day and age.
I think Chuck is sincere in his belief that he is right about defending himself. He sincerely believes he has no responsibility in that suit (though the opposing counsel certainly disagrees).
I certainly think CCOF could “Dis-Fellowship” Bob Grenier after reviewing their materials again and reviewing other situations where a pastor was “Dis-Fellowshiped” etc.
Carol said, “I’m a neighbor of his & hell will freeze over before Bob admits anything as far as the abuse in my book.He is a creepy little man & to lie bothers him not a bit”
Yep. I agree Carol. He’ll lie to the bitter end and he is creepy. He’s also in big trouble and this isn’t going away any time soon. I have “smoking guns” plural now.
Hopefully Calvary Chapel will Dis-Fellowship him since he won’t come clean. That would be a wise move with what’s coming.
Alex-
I am home sick today and I realize I haven’t been clear at all.
What I was trying to say is that in this situation, it HAS to be handled with lawyers.
Thats why I urged you to go with one.
It is hard to put into works what I was trying to say…it is difficult to handle these situations without the courts, without the lawyers..so when it was mentioned that you thought this can be handled otherwise, it is trusting, but not realistic.
Christians are always wanting to think the best of others, and so trusting.
What I was trying to say is that while we are trusting, they are there with their witnesses and lawyers, protecting themselves against US.
When I met with a Pastor, he encouraged me to come alone, and I came with my husband. Yet he had his witness to be there. If I didn’t have mine, I had no defense at all.
I was just saying that anything handled in “the church” is no different than how the “world” handles things even though they would lead you to believe otherwise. So many situations nowadays can’t be fit into the model in the book of Acts. I used to get angry when people would say “the Bible is outdated” that we can’t use it as a model. Concepts and precepts are the same, but we are not living in the same world. Maybe I should go back to sleep. I am probably still not making sense
Hannah – you are making good sense imo. Speak lovingly and carry a big stick (lawyer)
Hannah, yes I second that motion on having lawyers. It’s sad that it has gotten that way. I wouldn’t meet with bob again without a lawyer, a police officer and a news reporter. I think he is a serpent and he speaks with a fork tongue. He has a very dark creepy side for sure, it’s called demonic. Sad that he has the ability to fool so many good people. Well it will be a blessing when he is called on the carpet for abusing so God’s people.
Hannah you made great sense.
My husband and I had to deal with a well known franchise that was scamming tons of their franchisees. We were caught in this awful mess and still are waiting with “baited” breath if we will be sued or not. The franchise dealt with us horribly- one night two of the district managers wanted to speak to my husband and I decided to go with him. They did not know what to do when I showed up with my husband- it completely diffused the whole situation. It is very important to go in with someone else just because the other person may have strengths that you do not have and could help out in the situation. Plus, even the Bible states that one should go in with a witness.
Well Carol I feel bad that he lives in your neighborhood! lol He has abused so many people that have come and gone out of the front door at Calvary Chapel Visalia. It doesn’t matter if he trys to lie his way out of this, way too many people know of his dirty deeds! I had a lady friend today ask me where I was attending church. I said why you looking for a new church? She said yes with sadness on her face. I told her that if she knew all the dirt I did on bob she would have left years ago. See everyone messes up in their life from time to time but the totality of ones life speaks of their character. Bob’s totality is a mountain of dung. (Nicest way I could put it lol) He is a crooked business man who has abused his kids and his wife IMO to and is an impostor in the church. That’s what he has done and continues to do and he hides behind the efforts of other to make himself look good in the community. What a joke. And lets not forget about how he lies about others to try and shred their character. Bob is a great big lier.
Haman built the gallows to hang Mordecai. Yet it was those gallows that hung Haman. Bob Grenier is Haman. The noose is almost around his neck. Grenier’s day of judgement is not far away…
For a neighbor to speak up … that’s HUGE!
Yes, I know Carol. She heard all kinds of noises, screams, yelling and what sounded like violence when we were young. She is a very credible and stable person.
Her husband used to play football with us, etc and was a good guy. He built a 1/4 pipe skateboard ramp for us when we were kids. He was nicer and kinder to us than our parents. I think he felt bad for us and tried to help however he could.
Alex-
Thank God He provided Carol and her husband.
Now they are GOOD neighbors!
One CC leader in my neighborhood said she can’t interact with the neighbors anymore because God told her they are the “world.” She and her CC leader husband also said they don’t have time to visit the sick because they’re too busy with the ministry. The man preached on … get this … “Love Your Neighbor.” He gave all the examples of what “neighbor” can mean, all except an actual physical neighbor. And this couple is training another neighborhood couple as the newest untrained CC leaders.
… untrained and not qualified (1 Timothy 3:1-7,) as usual.
For those of you who have been up close and personal with Bob Grenier over the years, I can’t imagine what it must have been like to have the CC problems played out in such intensity in one man? What I’ve seen has been bad enough and it’s nothing in comparison to what Alex, his brothers, and so many of you who attended Bob Grenier’s church, have experienced.
My heart goes out to you all …
I was acquainted with Bob Grenier in Oregon in the 70s. He was a creepy guy back then, too. Sad to hear that he’s been in a position all these years to create so much misery in so many lives. Back then, it was apparent that what attracted him to pastoring was not the opportunity to serve but the opportunity to have the appearance of importance.
I took a look at some of his videos and blogs. I was struck by the weirdness of how consistently impersonal he is in conveying the messages, both written and recorded.
I don’t understand how Gayle could forsake her children in favor of this guy. What a terrible reality she must have to face every day. Sad.
Peace and healing to all who have been harmed by Bob Grenier (and other renegade pastors who do harm in the name of God… woe unto them).
Rabte,
“Back then, it was apparent that what attracted him to pastoring was not the opportunity to serve but the opportunity to have the appearance of importance.”
So true. I have been thinking of this too much lately. He must have been a very emotionally needy young boy since he was shipped off to a boarding school so early in life. His narcissism is possibly a result of feeling abandoned and lonely, only to get older and desire to be important and wanted. I really think he is very jealous of his older brother who has built a fortune in the business world. He has many times shared hints of these thoughts.
Haman was very proud of his connections and position. He sought not to better the people he served but only to gain prominence in their eyes. Doesn’t that describe bob grenier? The analogy is just so close. There is an ‘Esther’ in the story that has declared, “If I perish, I perish.” At the most opportune time (in God’s timing), Haman betrays himself to the very gallows he designed to bring harm to a very godly man. Be assured of this, God will not let Bob Grenier get away with his sin…
You may all be talking about BG but as I read the things that are said about him and the what he has done, I can’t help see my former CC pastor in his place. Because my former CC pastor can speak so well, he can rationalize every sin and crime he has committed and make them appear as simple misunderstanding. He has been removed from ministry before but was always able to lie his way back because he is a smooth talker. Deception is expertise.
Sometimes I wonder how someone can give a great message and be a phony at the same time. Then one name came to mind – Judas. There’s nothing in scripture that even implies that people only got saved in the preaching of the other 11 apostles. Judas was called the Son of Perdition yet he was able to preach the gospel with power that others were saved. Jesus allowed Judas to be the phony that he is until the right time came to expose him for what he really is.
“Judas was called the Son of Perdition yet he was able to preach the gospel with power that others were saved. Jesus allowed Judas to be the phony that he is until the right time came to expose him for what he really is.”
Heavy words Willy and a true warning for all of us!
If this goes well in the 11th hour, then praise God!
If not … then, once again, it’s God’s timing and plan to reveal what’s behind the curtain of Oz.
Praying …
@Alex: interesting that you would assume that the victims of Dino Cardelli would have any reason to want to sue CC. His abuse victims were in his house, not the church.
Both CC (organization) and the church (local) have been nothing but supportive and helpful to the victims. They won’t want to sue anyone in CC (organization), because they had absolutely nothing to do with Dino’s crimes; they wouldn’t even think of it.
They might want to sue Dino though… or Bob G. lol
Also, I am rooting for the truth to prevail, and for God to be glorified through your meetings with Bob. (Josh. 7:19)
Anonymous, here is a post you made 6/16/11 regarding your personal experience with CC “the Organization” and CC local:
“I saw God deal with that man; he is in jail now, I personally hope for the rest of his life. As a part of that church, I saw CCOF actually come along side of the hurting, ministering to the church in many different ways (coordinating a godly Pastor to help with the healing and search out a new Pastor, calling the children and family of the fallen to pray with them, etc.). CCOF didn’t take over either. They very simply offered assistance, which was gratefully accepted by the church that had been so burned by the old guy.
While I totally understand the hurt that the Grenier boys are feeling from the things done to them, it’s hard for me to hear the personal attacks against men like Roger. When I had no one to talk to, it was Roger Wing who called me personally to ask how I was doing, to pray with me, and to ask if there was anything he could do for me and my family. I don’t exactly consider him some sort of close friend, but he was there for me, even if not for everyone.”
This has not been my experience with Calvary Chapel “the Organization”, quite the contrary so far.
It is also interesting that you describe Calvary Chapel as both ‘local’ and as CC “the Organization”.
In my dealings with them, they seem to deny they are an “organization” and have said, to date, they can’t do anything….which doesn’t seem to be consistent with many other CC situations where they have.
Regarding Dino Cardelli’s Victims…you never know what will happen when they turn 18. I wouldn’t be 100% sure that they don’t sue and seek recourse via that venue.
Unfortunately for Costa Mesa, there is probably a case that can be made for Agency and Implied/Apparent Agency and the judgment or settlement would be a large one with regards to the Cardelli situation.
The best outcome would be for Bob Grenier to come clean and take the pressure off of Chuck Smith and/or Bob’s good friend Roger Wing.
However, what I know of Bob, he won’t cop to anything, despite the “smoking gun evidence” and the pile of testimonies etc etc. Bob is a con-man. My only conclusion based on his refusal to deal truthfully with basic indisputable facts is that he is intentionally a con-man charlatan. That’s a dangerous person.
Chuck Smith and/or Roger Wing need to “Dis-Fellowship” Bob Grenier (or whatever they choose to call it, it used to be “Dis-Affiliate” but they don’t like that term due to legal connotations).
Anonymous said, “it was Roger Wing who called me personally to ask how I was doing, to pray with me, and to ask if there was anything he could do for me and my family.”
I couldn’t even get a returned phone call or email from Roger Wing…even though I was told by another Calvary Chapel Pastor that CCOF and Roger Wing and Costa Mesa wanted to hear about this stuff and would help me.
The CC pastor gave me Roger’s info. I sent Roger all kinds of info and asked for help. Nada. Not even a phone call or any of the “help” you describe above.
Mr. Smith…you must do something. Bob Grenier is holding this community hostage. You must know by now how bad he is. Almost twenty years ago, you received numerous letters from very distraught CCV members about the behavior of Bob Grenier. Why are you so slow in dealing with this? During that time, you and John MacArthur haggled back and forth about your doctrinal positions, yet Bob Grenier has been a lose cannon for three decades. Dog gone it…do something.
Bob Grenier did abuse his children! He did…Someone important needs to stick their neck out for these boys. Bob Greneir has harrassed his staff for many years. He squashed them and kicked their butts out of the church. He relished in their pain so much he chased them through town to riddle their reputations with slanderous bullets. Mr. Smith, we can hardly stomach the filth he is spewing out of his website right now. It is just detestable. Doesn’t it make you want to vomit?
Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
CCV is a withering tree. People are finding the truth and they are leaving. Bob Grenier, Greg & Susie, Robert & Dee Dee, Dehaan & Gomez, your reign of acting like royalty is almost over. God’s timing is amazing. He answers our prayers in His timing, not ours.
He is taking from their riches and will make them all humble before Him.
I think God has given many families a chance to get away the last few years so that they will be spared the pain that will come soon, very soon. Those who continue to back Bob will share in his humiliation and disgrace. They will have to explain to their children how they were fooled right up to the end, inspite of all the warnings they were given.
Bob Grenier, your arrogant stupidity has caught up with you. The hammer is about to fall and all your riches will burn like dead leaves.
Lord please remove the covers from the eyes of the rest of the families left there. Please free them from Bob’s bondage before you pour out your wrath.
Hope you are well
Michael from PP ought to post this:
We really need to pray for America
Ted Haggard and Gary Busey on ABC’s celebrity wife swap..just when you think you’ve heard it all…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/22/ted-haggard-gary-busey-on-celebrity-wife-swap_n_975433.html
He’s admitting now he “may be bisexual”. About time he starts to come out with the truth. He could help alot of gay Christians by admitting being a Christian didn’t change his sexual orientation. Too many feel bad because the Lord didn’t change their orientation. And that’s because they are gay, the truth not too many want to hear. Not much happening on this site, so hopefully Alex doesn’t mind the sidestep.
Not Alone,
How right on you are in your postings. So many things are in the works right now. Little does he know. But know he will… and so will the whole community.
May God use this to humble him and bring him to repentance – because if I were him, I’d be afraid to die today. God has been very patient… waiting for Bob to repent. If he doesn’t do so willingly, God will use certain circumstances to bring him to that that place by being humiliated in this community. He will feel what people have felt the last 30 years. It will be a sad time for him and I certainly take no comfort in seeing anyone suffer. But God knows what it will take for all to come to him and repent. Bob is a wolf…. worse than a hireling. Many have been hurt by his destruction.
Lord, let your people’s cries continued to be heard and let your justice come according to your will.
NA, re your #390, I used the same parable when explaining something to my children recently. Funny that you should use that here. God certainly is confirming to me, in so many ways, the path the He is clearing for me in the road that we must take.
Sue- All other issues aside, how about the wife swapping? Not too biblical.
Amen Not Alone and Justice.
The day is drawing near.
Bob needs to come clean now.
Alex, I am going to say this here – because I won’t be received “over there” on this. That Hopkins guy, even though he seems OK, sounds like a bit of a whiner. Haven’t heard from Dave Rolph lately, but he is like Chuck’s right hand man. He can’t in any way sway Chuck in this matter? AV sounds like he is OK, and maybe he doesn’t know Chuck – but I can’t believe that if Chuck heard from these guys regarding BG, he wouldn’t listen to wise counsel. “In a multitude of counselors….”? Maybe God is done with CC and this is the way to show everyone that He is. But, I am tired of CC Pastors who say – it is not my place to get involved with Alex’s situation. That is pure garbage. If they see the evidence, they need to say something – to Chuck who is the leader of the institution. Even if to their hurt – sometimes you have to pay for speaking the truth. Are these guys men of God, or just….what? I don’t know.
Rant over.
I sort of get your color choice here, Alex. So, PP is sort of white and all, and this is dark. Is this the Dark Side?
Ron,
The only thing shared here is light, despite the color scheme. I was once confused about who the “good guys” were. Ephesians 5:11. That is what is being done here. Exposing the dark deeds that have been hidden. Bringing light.
God is using the good, bad, and the ugly that may have and has gone on with the many hurt people who have lashed out in their anger. Their anger is justified. What they have done with it is not for me to judge. I do know God uses everything. And I do see a big change in many folks who once appeared so much more angry than they used to be. Time and the Lord heal wounds, but also eyes have been opened…. avenues have been opened that were once seemingly closed.
He will bring these things to light…. and He is as we “speak”.
Justice – I get you. God uses all things for His Glory.
Yes Hannah – it does leave one has to wonder why he is interested in wife swapping with a celebrity?
Gee Justice – you are getting my curiosity going – “He is as we speak” . No one can share more now what that might be?
Sue – time will reveal it all. You will see. Trust me.
Ron-
Phoenix Preacher was dark for a long time.
(Black background)
There was a vote recently in the last 6 months or so to vote on the new white background.
PS Ron
At least there are some “grey” areas here
Maybe now is the time to suggest to Alex to get the nude guy off his gravitar
Ron, LOL. Steve Hopkins is a whiner. But, he’s also a good guy in many respects, as far as I can tell.
Hannah, LOL. He’s wearing pants
Justice, it is hard to tell when you first come onto Bob’s scene.
I’ve described it before as like an Onion. There are layers.
From the outer-most layer, all looks well.
The closer in you get, the more the Onion starts to stink.
The closest to him get a good picture of what the real situation is.
There comes a point where you just can’t come to any other conclusion other than the guy is a con-man.
He won’t cop to a single thing…even though he’s dead to rights on so much.
That smacks of Sociopathy or an intentional con.
But Alex, what does that make the people (pastors) that believe him? That think they know him, yet all the evidence points to another Bob – the scary one. I understand the average church goer, but the guys (or gals) in leadership?
Ron, I think it makes guys like Mike Buford, Brent Calvin, Jeff Fly and others very suspect.
They have either compromised their integrity severely, or they are incompetent idiots. These men have seen too much, heard too much to be innocent in this matter now.
Alex-
When my husband saw it he said “Why is that guy naked?”
He thought it was you.
Just sayin……..
Hannah, at least your husband cares enough to ask….
LOL. No, I’m much stockier, built more like a football player or wrestler
The scrawny dude is a metaphor for the little guy going up against the Machine.
Well, that didn’t last long over at PhxP.
I couldn’t handle an anonymous CC pastor rebuking Ted Haggard publicly, while he avoids dealing with the Bob Grenier situation like the plague.
My inference is that if Ted Haggard was a CC pastor, the guy would be quiet as a church mouse…but he has no problem blasting the guy publicly since he’s not. IMO.
Sue,
isn’t the concept of a gay christian an oxymoron? We all know they aren’t born that way and that it is a sin to practice sodomy so lets not condone this and bend to the worlds way of thinking
“It was nice while it lasted…..
So, frankly, if you are a CC Pastor and you don’t think you should call Bob Grenier, fellow CC pastor to the carpet, publicly..then STFU about Ted Haggard and/or other pastors.
(I blame Hopkins )
I’ll STFU now….”
To me, this is one of the things I was talking about – the AV basically said that because BG, who is one of his equal CC Pastors, he should not call him to the carpet.
Well, yeah, dude, you should. By being silent you are giving the appearance of agreeing with his methods.
This really drives me nuts. Ohhmmm, Ohmmm, blood pressure down, blood pressure down.
Solomon,
I wanted to address that too.
I compare it to the pedophile. Are we to tell a man that lusts after children that he can give into his desires, molest children and still be a Christian?
I have heard a homosexual man once on Christian radio say that he still considers himself homosexual but he is a Christian and will never practice homosexuality..but he still struggles with it. He will live celibate and serve God. That seemed to make it more believable that he was converted.
I think theres a lot to discuss though on the topic and maybe this wouldn’t be the place.
Solomon, I am a gay Christian. I do use the old definition, though, since I think the current one was hi-jacked:
“For most of its life in English, the word’s primary meaning was “joyful”, “carefree” ”
Wikipedia.
I was watching Jeff Fly leading worship last night and was just wondering, how can he just act like all is well. He’s been there forever. Is he really that stupid? He has lots of friends who have left. Does he really think that all these staff that have left and are leaving are just going somewhere else because, “God is leading them elsewhere.” (That’s the official reason, right?) BTW, the youth pastor is leaving now, too. Staff doesn’t leave because things are good and they are happy. Of course, CCV leadership really likes to frame it otherwise.I pray I am never deceived like that again.
Hannah,
If someone is not practicing homosexuality even if they have in the past then they are not a homosexual as we are new creations in Christ and old things have passed away. That individual could still have temptations in that area but that doesn’t make him homosexual as long as he doesn’t act on them or lust in his heart for that. I used to fornicate but I don’t anymore, that doesn’t make me a fornicator even if temptations comes my way. Homosexuality is a behavior not a gender or ethnic group.
Summer-
I know nothing about CCV, but I have heard too about “God leading” and I just wish that some people would just admit the truth rather than protect the CC they are leaving.
Many need the referrals to the next church and they won’t get them if they “bad speak” the hand that fed them. They believe this is a godly attitude.
“.I pray I am never deceived like that again.”-Summer
I am sure you won’t be.
Solomon,
I think what you said is what he was alluding too.
Maybe because in AA you always say you are an alcoholic even if you have been in recovery for years. From what I know about AA (a friend I have) and also OA (another friend), it is a “day to day” thing. I don’t agree with the label once you have overcome, but maybe in some way it keeps the person in check. I think it is the enemies way of keeping them in bondage…but I think this man was saying that his nature is not to be attracted to women, and attracted to men, but he doesn’t act on it. Maybe Paul was alluding to this when he said it is better to not marry….well, the RCC takes this to mean celebacy in Priesthood….
Anyway, What I meant was that it is more believable that he has been converted, but I guess maybe one would say that if he was truly converted, he would be attracted to women, right?
Solomon, I once knew a guy who “was” a homosexual. He would say just what you are saying – He is a new creation in Christ. That brother was a very special brother to me.
As I reread my post, I can answer my own question. He’s been there so long that he has no idea what a healthy church is supposed to look like. There is life after CCV. There are many churches out there that are thriving, loving Jesus and have freedom. Do the congregants really think it is normal to not speak to those who have left? It proves to me that it is not each other that they love, but the leader.
People, if you are lurking here, please take note. Ask yourself the hard questions. Why is it that so many young people do not follow the Lord that come from CCV? Why are there so many divorces? Why are there so many broken friendships? Why is there a revolving door with the staff? Yes, these things happen in other churches, but not to the extent that they do in CCV.
Listen before your own faith is shipwrecked. Listen so you don’t suffer from mental whiplash. Listen so you can have freedom.
I’m having a hard time biting my tongue with regards to the posts about gay Christians. I suggest anyone who thinks that a gay person can’t be a Christian watch “For the Bible Tells Me So”.
WendyC – I put that on my instant queue on Netflix. But, unless they back up what they are saying with Scripture, as opposed to experience, I am not likely to change. But, I am willing…
Remember the “Church” is not the building or demonination it is the people “called out ones”. These false sheperds have manipulted people for years that the “church” is an organization or a “building” as if our salvation depended on us going to their stated services on Sunday and Wednesday. Once you accept what the “church” really is then you will be free from the falsehood that the “church” is made of sticks and stones. They want you to pay their temple tax of 10 percent of your income and guess what they say that is only the start as anything after that is your offering. Remember these guys are not preist and we no longer worsship in a temple so they don’t need our dough, they need to get a job and stop living off the backs of people who are barely getting by pay check to pay check. Now if a brother is planting fellwoships new testament style then the brethren should supply their needs but that doesn’t mean a set salary and living high on the hog. I believe in the preisthood of all believers not just the so called Pastors of today.
Gay people I’ve known personally did not choose to be. They discovered they were in puperty. And they have never been attracted to the opposite sex (unless they were bisexual). That is the difference and when they have become Christians, it hasn’t changed for them. They didn’t become like straight people because they got converted. That is why I called them gay Christians. If you are a straight person, you may get tempted by the opposite sex. Gays are tempted by the same sex. So it is a different reality. As far as alcoholics go, true alcoholics will always be and can never drink normally again. I know some well. It’s like other drug addiction – once addicted to something a person can’t just take a little bit. They go right back to being addicts, Christian or not.
You just have to love a mouse that with one spin will bring you from the top of this post to the bottom!
Solomon – I agree with you about the 10 percent thing. They pick and choose scriptures from the old testament. What a rip off.
Summer, good words, wise words.
Appeal to as many as you can there locally. I can guarantee you this will not end until Bob is dealt with and the truth comes out.
On the gay issue, I will say this, my brother Paul, who is Bob Grenier’s blood son, is gay.
He appeared to be gay early on. Paul is alleging Bob Grenier molested him. That could’ve been the trigger, or Paul could’ve been born with that tendency, much like some are born with other tendencies that the Bibles says is sin.
I was born with heterosexual tendencies. Doesn’t make it not sin for me to fornicate or commit adultery.
I certainly think there are “gay” Christians, just as their are straight Christians who struggle with heterosexual lust, gluttony, greed, lying, jealousy, drinking too much, etc etc.
Someone who practices any of the sins listed in Scripture and claims it isn’t sin…that would be a big red flag. We’re sinners. We need to beg God for mercy and confess and repent of sin. If we’re one of God’s kids, He promises to deal with us and He promises to bring us home.
Ron, they do include quite a lot of scripture which is why I think all Christians who say gay people can’t be Christians should watch it.
And my thing to say to them would be “Why Don’t we still keep the Sabbath then”?
Sue,
I don’t think God in all his goodness would create someone to be a homosexual, they are not born that way.
I know a lot of lying, lusting, gluttonous, prideful, greedy, etc Christians. I’m sure I know some “gay” Christians as well.
The check and balance is this: homosexuality is sin and we can’t, IMO, call it “not” sin…or we have to call a whole bunch of other stuff “not” sin as well.
We’re sinners. We need to acknowledge our sin, confess our sin and beg God for mercy.
Solomon said, “I don’t think God in all his goodness would create someone to be a homosexual, they are not born that way.”
Why did God create me with a tendency to want to not be faithful heterosexually?
Solomon, do you like women? If so, are you wired for monogamy naturally? Not many men are. Yet, fornication and adultery is sin.
Ron said, “Well, yeah, dude, you should. By being silent you are giving the appearance of agreeing with his methods.
This really drives me nuts. Ohhmmm, Ohmmm, blood pressure down, blood pressure down.”
I agree 100% obviously.
And, the meditation thing doesn’t work for me
The punching bag, however, helps a little 
Alex – lol
Solomon – I know too many who were born that way. Why would anyone at puperty choose that, when you could have the opposite?
Alex,
My point is that homosexaulity is a behaviour not a gender as so many claim it to be. Once you become a regenrated born again baptized believer you are no longer a homosexual or whatever sin you frequented as all things are new and old things passed away or was the bible kidding about that? Sorry but I choose to believe the bible. I use to be a fornicator but once I repented and turned for that sin I no longer was a fornicator. If a homosexual becomes born again then he is no longer a homosexaul even if there is a tendencey to be attracted to men as long as he doesn’t lust after men or engage in that behaviour. It is possible to be attracted to women and not lust in your heart after them, hard but through Jesus it can be done. The problem with homosexuality is that here is no “out” for them in terms of getting married under Gods allowance. A straight person may be fornicating but they can always get married to alleiviate that burning passon. The homosexual has no such option to alleviate that burning lust by getting married. God made them male and female, nothing more nothing less, it is obvious by the make up of our bodies that men are not for men and women are not for women. The institutional church is staring to get soft on this by calling it “same sex attraction” rather than sodomy or homosexuality, even to be effeminate is a sin.
Solomon said, “even if there is a tendencey to be attracted to men as long as he doesn’t lust after men or engage in that behaviour. It is possible to be attracted to women and not lust in your heart after them, hard but through Jesus it can be done.”
Yes, homosexual lust and the physical act is sin. The tendency, the desire, is not, IMO.
Just as the heterosexual desire is not the sin, it is the act of lusting and the act of fornicating, doing the deed, etc.
When I say a “homosexual” can be a Christian, I mean a person who has a sexual desire for the same sex who acknowledges it as sin and doesn’t have a pattern of behavior in their life that lusts after the same sex all the time and doesn’t do the deed all the time…is probably saved.
Just as a “heterosexual” Christian who is attracted to the opposite sex must war against lusting after other women and doing the deed etc.
And, YES, it can be done. I’m living proof (from the heterosexual side). When you truly confess and repent of your sin and “gouge out your eye” you can have victory over sexual sin…homo or hetero. I affirm that.
I would be very concerned for a professing believer homo or hetero who continued to lust and continued to do the deed after claiming Christ saved them.
However, the “attraction” is not the sin…and God doesn’t necessarily turn gay people straight in terms of their desire/attraction…not in many instances I know of.
Solomon, have you ever lusted once since you became a Christian?
Solomon said, ” The problem with homosexuality is that here is no “out” for them in terms of getting married under Gods allowance. A straight person may be fornicating but they can always get married to alleiviate that burning passon. The homosexual has no such option to alleviate that burning lust by getting married. God made them male and female, nothing more nothing less, it is obvious by the make up of our bodies that men are not for men and women are not for women. The institutional church is staring to get soft on this by calling it “same sex attraction” rather than sodomy or homosexuality, even to be effeminate is a sin.”
There is no “out” for homosexuals as you stated. Sucks for them. Doesn’t mean they weren’t born with the tendency.
Is there any “out” for people born with the tendency for pride? Lying?
Is there a “God sanctioned” pridefulness or lying? Nope.
Solomon, yes, God created mankind Male and Female. And, God created the Angels and the Angels were forbidden to have sex.
The Fallen Angels had sex with human women according to Scripture.
Genesis 6: 1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal[b]; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
Sin entered the World, Solomon. What God “intended” got all screwed up. People, IMO, can be born with a “tendency” an “attraction” that God didn’t “intend”…but sin entered the World.
Solomon, God didn’t “intend” any of us to be liars, prideful, gluttonous, drunkards, fornicators, etc etc etc. Yet, we all are sinners.
However, we need to call sin sin and we need to confess and repent of our sins and war against our sins.
In conclusion:
If a “homosexual”…defined as one who is attracted sexually to the same sex, has desire for the same sex…confesses their homosexual lust and the deed as sin, begs God for mercy on them a sinner, believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, their Savior and repents of sin…even if they stumble (as we all do)….but war against the sin, get convicted by the Holy Spirit of the sin…I believe there is a good chance they are “saved”.
They don’t have to be “cured” of attraction to be “saved”…I don’t see that in Scripture.
Alex-
“confesses their homosexual lust and the deed as sin, begs God for mercy on them a sinner, believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, their Savior and repents of sin…even if they stumble (as we all do)….but war against the sin, get convicted by the Holy Spirit of the sin…I believe there is a good chance they are “saved”.”
IMO, homosexuality is a lifestyle meaning that after the repentence, they still continue in habitual sin. When we repent we are not to continue in habitual sin. We can stumble as you say, but what I am reading from others here is that they condone the lifestyle, so that the sinner can openly declare their sin and yet continue in sin and still call themselves a Christian. So that being homosexual Christian can be accepted by God ans a blessed lifestyle and one Jesus and the scripture would approve of.
Hannah, agreed, “habitual sin” is no good.
Much like Bob Grenier saying he “repented” of some nebulous thing he called “losing his temper” but he kept on repeating the child abuse over and over and over and over.
And, he lies all the time, to this very moment he is lying about the child abuse and so much more.
I agree that a heterosexual or a homosexual who lives in “habitual sin” of lust and/or doing the deed is on very concerning ground with regards to Salvation.
If the pattern of one’s life is fornication, adultery, homosexuality, lying, child abusing, stealing, molesting, etc etc etc….probably not a Christian, but God is Judge of Salvation.
The tricky part is, we all still sin every day in some form.
But, I agree, there are Standards, sin is sin and there are lines.
I get VERY concerned when a person doesn’t cop to sin…like Bob Grenier.
When someone parses and says “I have sinned…generally speaking”…but they never actually cop to any specific sin…that’s bad.
Bob Grenier does this…he’s the master at deception and framing himself as the non-sinning sinner. He never cops to specific sin on one hand, and then in a sermon will claim he has generally sinned like the rest of us.
I and many others would like to know specifically what he considers sin, because he hasn’t copped to child abuse, molestation, stealing, lying, unrighteous anger at staff, slandering good people, being a manipulative bastard and so much more.
Alex-
We all still sin, but how much does your sin grieve you?
Are you getting better with time?
Are you sinning less than last year?
I think this is an indication of your sanctification.
One has to hate their sin so much that their main desire in life is to overcome their sin.
A homosexual lifestyle where the person believes that God approves of their lifestyle is deceived by the enemy and would have no reason to repent.
“I get VERY concerned when a person doesn’t cop to sin…like Bob Grenier.”-Alex
Especially when it is a Pastor, leader of the flock.
It means that not only is he deceived himself, but he is responsible for deceiving many that God has entrusted to his care (that is IF God entrusted them to him), so the has the potential for causing a whole lot of people to stumble.
He is running away from God. He can run but he can’t hide.
PS. I say these things not knowing Mr. Grenier but responding to Alex’s comments.
I don’t get all the riffs on fagelas, especially Simon’s take. Man is as much a refection of God’s creation as is man’s infection and imputation of a sin nature…right from birth and even before. Soooooo…I have no problems with man being born with and having dna that predisposes him to homosexuality. If not so, then how do you reconcile the logical and inevitable effects of having a sin nature. If homosexuality is a sin, then why could it not be from birth if the birth is impossibly and totally intertwined with a sin nature. CC, due to PC ‘s upbringing and homophobic nature, embraces a position that one can’t be born a homosexual that is diametrically and wholly at odd’s with orthodoxy on man having a sin nature. some men have a nature that is defined by a bad temper, a desirevto cheat, la la la. Why isn’t homosexuality on that list of sins?
There once was a man named Ted
Who didn’t feel convicted with whom he shared his bed
It never seemed to me that he would dress like a slob
He really srained to keep his job
And in its fullest sence, he might just be like Bob
Homosexuality is not natural and is stated specifically as one of abomination. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah- God was angered at the state of this city because of its sexual perversion with homosexuality and wanting to have sex with angels. Also, it has devastating effects on the family unit that God ordained and put in creation as a special covenant- the marriage between a man and a woman. God never condones or creates sin and no one can claim well I was just born this way or God predestined me to be this way.
That is a cop out. Can we have tendencies that lean us one way or the other?- yes
But that does not mean that God created us that way- We chose this route in our own sinfulness.
Now how does one deal with the homosexual?- the same way one deals with any sin- its sin. But I am tired of this special treatment with homosexuals lately- they are sinners like anyone else in need of a Savior. Homosexuality does however carry more devastating consequences though to society and the family.
It is Adam that did the predestination. If God had His way we’d be in Eden
FG said, “Homosexuality is not natural and is stated specifically as one of abomination. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah”
Ezekiel 16:49-50 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, but those who act faithfully are his delight.
FG, I wouldn’t narrow your scope so specifically to homosexuality. It is a sin, no doubt, but no more of an “abomination” to God than lying…and I know lots of Preachers who do lots and lots of lying.
Meshuganah, I think I agree. Sin entered the World, we’re all born into sin…with a variety of sin tendencies.
M, your limeric, I like the substance, but you need to work on the execution a little
Alex:
Easy for you to say, you temper driven chunky football bodied gentile
M, LOL! Two out of three ain’t bad
And as a jew, I am predisposed to be arrogant and a know it all according to my Adamic nature. I do have a loose neck though my goyum friend.
ps
my God nature was supposed to be kind, preferring others and sweet., porky
The issue I see with homosexuality is the problem of identity. From reading scripture it appears that someone’s identity can become so warped by sin that what once was natural is now unnatural and vice versa. This can happen at a young age or an old age with one sin leading to another sin until God eventually gives one over to a particular disposition. I don’t believe this is the same thing as being born this way but rather the result of a series of choices a person makes starting from a young age. When someone claims they are a homosexual and also a Christian I shake my head and I am puzzled. As a single Christian man I am seeking the Lord for a wife. I have no problem in dating with holding hands and maybe a few hugs and kisses. This is not lust, fornication or sin. However this is passion and love and a relationship which may or may not lead to marriage. Seems like you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a princess. Conversely, I do think it’s wrong for a homosexual man to be in a similar relationship with another man. I am sorry if I appear to be not tolerant or a bigot but I do feel we need to honor scripture which I think is clear. For those that struggle with homosexual tendencies, I encourage you not to view your attraction as part of your identity. It seems this will only re-enforce your sin nature which is not appropriate for a believer.
Homosexuality is a vile peversion, let’s not water it down. We can speak on this without feeling obligated to mention every other sin, those can be discussed another day. Alex, I have lusted since I have been born again and your point is……
Solomon, my point is this:
A person, like say my brother Paul, who (whether it is true or no) really believes they were born with the tendency to attraction of the same sex…is quite stumbled and defeated when “Christians” set up the sin of homosexuality as a Zero Tolerance thing.
Lying is clearly an “abomination” to God, Scripture says so clearly (see verse above and others).
Yet, I don’t see “liars” being told by Christians that they are doomed to hell if they still struggle with lying even after they’re saved or supposedly saved.
Christianity has set up this mythos that is a nearly impossible Mountain for those with tendencies to the same sex…as if their sin is somehow worse or more of an abomination than lying.
It stumbles the sinner, makes them feel less human, somehow worse than the rest of us sinners and can be very defeating in ministering the Gospel.
Hey, guess what, I’m a sinner. Are you? I have lied, lusted, etc post-saved. Have you?
Does that mean I necessarily 100% for certain am not saved? Nope.
If I don’t call it sin and don’t war against it, that’s not good.
If a person has a proclivity to same sex attraction…and they stumble, does that unsave them? Are they more of a sinner than you or me when we screw up?
That’s my point Solomon. I’m not saying homosexuality isn’t sin, clearly it is. I’m not saying it isn’t an “abomination” like lying. I’m saying we sure do a lot to beat these sinners down when the rest of us sinners sure want a lot of grace for being lying, prideful, fornicating, gluttonous jerks.
I usually witness to homosexuals this way: hey, I’m just as much of sinner and need God’s mercy as much or more as anyone. Be reconciled to God, confess your sin, beg God for mercy like I have with my sins and ask Him to help you. If you screw up, repent and try again. If you screw up again, beg God for mercy, confess and repent and try again.
Now if you keep sinning and you don’t cop to sin and you don’t have any victory over the sin…not good. Bad sign.
Bob Grenier is that type. Won’t cop to specific sin, repeats the same sins over and over no change. In fact, he’s gotten worse. Stubborn lying unrepentant sin that has been specifically called out and he lies through his lying liar lips.
Very well put Alex and Andrew. Sol, seems you are calling homosexuality a mortal sin, but my heroin addiction is only a mortal sin. ps Michigan is going down..TCU next, then de spudheads
And, if you are a Pastor/Elder you are scripturally held to a much higher Standard than the joe blow lay-person and there are rules that govern the position, societally and Scripturally.
Qualifications, instructions on church discipline by other Pastors/Elders.
1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Timothy 5:19-22
correction. my addiction is a venal sin.
Motel, did you go RCC (Catholic) on me all the sudden? I thought you were Jewish
Mortal vs. Venial sin?
Motel, Boise State really needs SDSU to be undefeated when they meet later this season. Counting on your guys to step up and then take their drubbing like men
Good back-handed point you make there Motel…I hope the rest got it.
Unless they’re RCC (Catholic) of course, then they may agree with your Mortal vs. Venial Sin position
And, Solomon, I’m not watering it down. It’s a vile sin, no doubt. The sins I’ve done in my life are vile, too. Some of the heterosexual porn I’ve watched in year’s past…some of the partying I did…vile stuff.
Sin is vile. I don’t get that particular sin, but it’s not more vile than lying according to Scripture. The facts are the facts, unless “abomination” means something different in the two examples and the “infallible, inerrant, inspired” Word of God got it wrong on lying.
Regarding the Wife Swap TV series, just to clarify, they don’t have sex. They ‘trade lives’ and live by each others house rules. The wife sleeps in a separate bedroom. Usually the swap is done with families who are polar opposites, such as a vegan hippie family swapping moms with a rich suburban family. The wives write down their philosophy, schedules, rules, etc. and the new wife has to follow it exactly. After 3 days, she gets to change the rules and introduce the family to her way of living. There is usually much frustration during the process, and the families learn to be open to other ways of doing things. Interestingly, in almost all of the episodes I’ve seen, the men end up in tears. So everybody just take a breath about Ted Haggard, and watch a little more trash TV, and maybe you would know what it’s all about. If you think you have a dysfunctional family, it can be very comforting to watch other people’s issues, ha,ha, nah, it is a guilty pleasure, though. Best to you, Alex.
Alex et all,
Question… If a pastor sins or stumbles, whether it be child abuse, porn, adultery, lying, greed, etc. How should he repent? Publicly or privately with those involved. Should he step down or go through a counseling process of restoration, both? Who decides what actions should be taken? Who is the judge to say, OK that fulfills our requirement of repentance?
What do ya think???
Just asking…
Alex, do you think it’s possible for one sin to be worse than another sin?
Alex as to your comment to homosexuality being a sin as any other sin- yes, all sin puts us in vile standing before the Lord; but I would have to say there are certain sins on this earth that have devastating effects to a society as a whole and God specifically calls them vile. These certain sins are an indicator of the breakdown of any society- along with witchcraft, adultery, and murder. We have to be clear not to minimize sin otherwise we start getting gray- like the color in this blog and then end up on the dark side. We need to love the sinner, but certain sins need to be called out for they will penetrate society and kill it.
We can even say that a pedophile has a certain attraction to children or a person might have an attraction to animals and they can’t help that desire- does God give that to them to? No- we have to call a spade a spade. Homosexuals are not born that way just as a pedophile is not born that way. They have chosen this avenue and all sin breeds from one specific horrifying sin called SELFISHNESS and PRIDE.
Romans 1:26
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Alex-
None of us will stop sinning completely, but there has to be some victory over sin if Christ lives in us and we have surrendered our lives to HIm. I think the issue is that because we know we are sinners, we make the excuses for our sins rather than submit to what God wants us to do to gain victory over our sin.
For instance:
If a man is not loving his wife as Christ loved the church and is not submitting his life to God in giving God time in prayer and petition and reading of the Word, will this man be able to love his wife as Christ loves the church?
If a homosexual thinks he was born that way (as the world also calls alcoholism a “disease” rather than sin), what wold encourage him to seek the Lord to change?
I keep asking the same question that you have not answered.
If a homosexual believes they are born that way and that God is OK with them, why would they want to change their lifestyle? We then condone the sinning behavior. And make God a liar.
If I am struggling with loving my neighbor, and believe I am a sinner who will always sin, where would be my motivation to change? Are we to just keep sinning to prove we are sinners?
So IMO the only similarity with one who lies with one who sins against their body (and contributes to the breakdown of the family by homosexual marriage), is that both ought to hate their sin as much as God hates their sin and repent and ask God to change them. And if they don’t change and actually believe that God created them that way, (which is not true based on scripture that God created us in our mothers womb, and we are fearfully and wonderfully made–) they are rebelling against God.
I just don’t hear much about hating the sins you speak of..more of an acceptance of those sins with the excuse that “we are always going to sin” kind of thing. Christ died to give us victory over our sins. The Old man is dead. That is our hope.
The the sin of what your father did to you is greater than a lie of telling your best friend that a dress looks good on her , to make her feel good, when it doesn’t.
FG-we were writing at the same time and I was going to mention beastiality yesterday.
If a man is attracted to animals, did God create him that way or is it his own sinful lusts. God is not the author of sin, we all give ourselves over to the lusts of our flesh. Then somehow, we want to blame God for it.
Hannah you said it so MUCH more eloquently than I did though- good word of wisdom.
“They have chosen this avenue and all sin breeds from one specific horrifying sin called SELFISHNESS and PRIDE. “-FG
YES!
How many of us really want to greive over our sin the way God does?
Own up to it?
It is a painful process when God starts to tear us apart.
He is asking ..”are you ready”?
I know this pain firsthand, I have been going through it for years… it is necessary, and we can’t hide from Him once he decides to work all this out in us.
The greatest victory comes from the most pain.
I would have to say that because of the breakdown of marriage due to divorce- we see many things of perversion happening to our society unfortunately. There are devastating consequences to what we do and it is due to our own selfishness- We want what we want despite the fact if it hurts those around us or society as a whole.
The wonderful news is that those who are washed in the Blood of Lamb are cleansed and have freedom- so in our freedom we SHOULD ( I did not say WOULD ) not want or desire to do what the world does. Paul talks about the freedom that Christians have in Christ that we are not bound as slaves to this world. I praise God everyday for this freedom that has set us free!!! Our whole desire should be that to love Jesus more and the Holy Spirit does the changing. I know I have dealt with some pretty hefty sins, such as anger, but through prayer and faith in Him to change it – He did it!! He is the one who can change any sin, even homosexuality, by trusting in the HS to do the job.
FG-
Every time you try and call out sin, you are told you are a Pharisee.
I think that is true if you are not willing to look inside your own life and grieve daily over the mess that you are.
I have spent years in the desert and haven’t come out yet….but I know that I want to be a new creation and I can’t be that if I am satisfied in my sin.
Any way I say it I know it comes off as self-righteous. It is hard to talk about these things.
FG-
Amen to your last!
He does it !
Christ IN US, our hope of glory!
We are ALREADY IN CHRIST…our standing at salvation is this.
The old nature wars against the new nature….
At the Passover, God instructed the Israelites to get rid of ALL the LEAVEN in the home, aside from applying the blood to the doorposts.
The blood is not enough..we need to get rid of the leaven..why else would God have instructed this? Was there another way of salvation? This is a model of not only having the blood in the basin, but APPLYING the blood to our home, our lives, and then getting rid of the sin. There was to be NO leaven in the home at all. They woudl use a feather to get every last drop.
NT application
1 Corinthians 5:7
Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
It is all about the issues of the heart- isn’t it Hannah?
Time for some circumcision.
Yes FG..it is always about the heart.
ouch!
Yes!
You have hit it with the leaven- Now we are talking some good ole’ fashion Bible talk.
One thing that has been a blessing to me is to continually pray for “the fruits of the Spirit”.
No one ever talks about this anymore. We talk about doctrine or issues.
Galatians 5:22
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
This is what should come out of a Christian; this is what the Holy Spirit will produce in us if we are willing to submit/surrender to it. There is NO law. This is what takes care of any sin and yes, homosexualtiy. These words, such as leaven, fruit, circumcision, all have to do with what is flowing out of our hearts – and this is the real issue. This is what God will ultimately look at- where is our heart?
The reason behind WHY homosexualtiy is so perverted is because the heart has accumulated so much fruit of sin that it eventually becomes hardened to sin and cannot differentiate what is right or wrong anymore. One sin breeds another til yes you are right it leavens the whole lump. This is why a little lie can become a big fat bucketload of lies and WHA LAH you have a pathological liar. This is also why divorce and the breakdown of the marriage leads to more sin because we have broken that marriage covenant with the Lord. Look at Adam and Eve- she left the covering of her husband and made a disasterous decision which led to her husband (even though he made that decision also) going down the same path.
Yes sin is sin; but some sins (like lying, cheating, flirting, boasting, looking at dirty pictures etc.) are more starting points that can lead into bigger and more deadly sin (pathological lying, swindling, adultery, narcissistic behavior/sociopath, pedophilia/homosexuality).
Hannah from one chick to another chick- you have been a blessing today!!
Gotta go. Thanks Alex for this enlightening forum.
Last point- if we are willing to state that some are born homosexual and that God predestined someone that way then we would also have to state that ALL other deviants
such as, beastiality, pedophilia, socipathic behavior are also something someone is born as. Remember God is a God of order not disorder. WE have messed it up royally and because SIN (death) is the curse and Satan rules the world at this point- we have 101% chance of being a sinner ( 1% for good measure). Thankfully Christ conquered death for those willing to submit to a Savior!
Motel the Tailor says:
September 22, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Very well put Alex and Andrew. Sol, seems you are calling homosexuality a mortal sin, but my heroin addiction is only a mortal sin.
at 10:23 pm: correction. my addiction is a venal sin.
******************
ROTFLOL!
VENAL definition: ve·nal/ˈvēnl/
Adjective: Showing or motivated by susceptibility to bribery: “venal politicians”.
Dictionary.com – Answers.com – Merriam-Webster
JuanDeLaCruz says:
September 23, 2011 at 3:13 am
Alex, do you think it’s possible for one sin to be worse than another sin?
If I may give my brief input to this question…
The bottom line is that God cannot have fellowship with sin. Therefore as a matter of our nature we are doomed to be separate from Him for eternity. Knowing this God provided a way of escape from this fate by trading the holiness of Jesus for our sin. Trusting in the substitution of Jesus for ourselves individually gives us the gift of being clothed with His righteousness.
So regardless of the name of the sin…it is sin. That being said does not equate to all sins resulting in the same consequences or having the same effects on those around us.
Juan asked, “Alex, do you think it’s possible for one sin to be worse than another sin?”
Good question.
We have to first quantify “worse”.
Worse for the individual in terms of the consequences they may face for a particular sin? Worse for those close to the individual for the consequences for a particular sin?
Yes, some sins have worse consequences for all involved. Adultery, terribly hurtful to the individual and the spouse and the kids. Drug abuse, terribly hurtful to the individual, the spouse, kids, friends, family etc.
Child abuse, terribly hurtful to the spouse and kids. Promiscuous heterosexuality, very hurtful to the individual emotionally and if they get an STD and if they have a kid out of wedlock etc etc.
Drunkard, Alcoholic, terribly hurtful to the individual from a health perspective and to those around them, etc.
Homosexuality, terribly hurtful to the individual if they get an STD and can be terribly destructive emotionally, etc.
So, “yes” in terms of consequences of sin to the individual and others.
Now, “worse” in terms of a Hierarchy of Sin before God?
Well, I’d ask this: Is there a sin that will get you less damned to hell than another? Is there one sin you can commit and it didn’t damn you to hell?
I’d also ask, is “Lying” more or less of an “Abomination” to God than “homosexual sex”?
If Scripture is the Standard, I’d have to say the answer is no. Though RCC (Catholics) and some others, would disagree as they create a Dichotomy of “Mortal Sin” and “Venial Sin”…Mortal Sin damns you to hell if you haven’t gone to confession…Venial Sin is covered if you die w/o having gone to confession.
Proverbs 6:16-19 “There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.”
So, “homosexuality” is an “abomination” to God…yes.
Bob Grenier practices much of the “abominations” above.
Scripture asserts that there are many things that are an “abomination” to God.
Bob Grenier, a Calvary Chapel Pastor in good standing, is guilty as hell of much of the “abominations” above….and Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel still endorse him (though hopefully today I will get word that they’ve listened and dealt with this situation in a right manner).
I can guarantee you this, if Bob Grenier came out as a “homosexual”, Chuck Smith would personally drive to Visalia and yank the Dove off Bob’s building himself.
Greg, you said it much more concisely than I did
I obviously agree.
Once a CC Guru asked, “Question… If a pastor sins or stumbles, whether it be child abuse, porn, adultery, lying, greed, etc. How should he repent? Publicly or privately with those involved. Should he step down or go through a counseling process of restoration, both? Who decides what actions should be taken? Who is the judge to say, OK that fulfills our requirement of repentance?
What do ya think???”
My take, from Scripture, is that the Pastor should repent to the party or parties he offended and confess fully and take responsibility for his actions and throw himself at the mercy of the offended and try to make amends and reconcile.
The Pastor, if he breaks the rules laid out in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, should step down until he can follow the rules consistently.
If the Pastor won’t cop to the sin, the other Pastors/Elders need to deal with the Pastor this way: 1 Timothy 5:19-22
It’s all pretty “simple” to me (“we simply teach the bible simply”).
The rebuke for a Pastor who lies about his sin should be public per Scripture. Chuck is Bob Grenier’s Pastor, Bob says it in his book, all over Bob’s website, from the Pulpit etc etc.
If a Pastor remains in sin and consistently exhibits that they can’t follow the rules that Paul the Apostle lays out in Scripture, they should be on the other side of the Pulpit like the rest of us.
If God truly calls you to ministry, I believe he’ll give you the ability to follow the rules. If you are truly “anointed”, I believe God will give you the qualifications.
Not meeting the Qualifications is evidence of a false calling and false “anointing” IMO.
Hannah said, “did God create him that way or is it his own sinful lusts. God is not the author of sin, we all give ourselves over to the lusts of our flesh. Then somehow, we want to blame God for it.”
God created mankind. Sin entered the World.
God does not sin, but you need to define “author” further.
Where did sin come from? Who created the devil? The fallen angels?
How did sin enter the World?
Who created mankind and the Angels with the capacity and ability to sin?
Mankind is “responsible” for their sin. No doubt.
We are all “born into sin”…none can avoid it. IMO, the tendencies for each and every sin are inherent at birth, some with one set of tendencies, some with another set, etc.
A person who struggles with homosexuality is on equal footing, IMO, with saying that they were “born” with that sin tendency…similar to a person with a propensity to heterosexual lust, etc. However, like the heterosexual, that person is still responsible for their sin and can’t blame God for it (I mean they can, but it won’t do them any good).
God wants all to be Reconciled to Him. The call of the Gospel is this: Sinners, be reconciled to God. Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Turn from your sin and repent.
Hannah said, “Every time you try and call out sin, you are told you are a Pharisee.”
That would be a misapplication of what a “Pharisee” is in Scripture and History IMO.
Whoever is using that against you for calling out sin is simply incorrect.
A “Pharisee” is a Jewish Religious Leader who created a bunch of rules in addition to the Mosaic Law. They were highly hypocritical Religious/Political leaders, not people who called out legitimate Scriptural sin.
They were also not Christians, as they rejected the Messiah.
FG said, “Thankfully Christ conquered death for those willing to submit to a Savior!”
Amen to that.
We’re all sinners…and we all need to embrace the message of the Gospel to all men:
Be reconciled to God. Homosexuals, heterosexuals, child abusers, liars, gluttons, drunkards, prideful jerks, hypocrites, etc etc etc.
For any homosexuals or lesbians out there reading this thread, please note the differing opinions here, and know there are Christians like myself who know you were born gay. They probably don’t know any gay people personally, so they have their ideas. My neighbors who are gay aren’t hurting anyone. My neighbor who sells drugs is. My neighbor who lies on the couch all day because of alcoholism is really hurting her family. And BG sounds worse than all of my neighbors and he is “pastor Bob”. Go figure —
Well, today’s the day I’m supposed to hear something.
Hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.
After having to call out a pastor for inappropriate behavior with another mans wife, the scripture that I felt the Holy Spirit gave me was this, “for observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: what diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In ALL things YOU proved yourself to be CLEAR in this matter”. 2 Co 7:11
Now it seems to me that if the sinner agrees, believes and is fully repentant of his sin, then 1Tim 5 becomes a formality that the sinner agrees with.
Bob has an opportunity to show grace, love and glorify God in a huge way, will he? Or will it be like the CC pastor I described above who has dwindled the flock from 250 to 30? We shall soon find out…
Amen Covered. It is Bob Grenier who can show love and mercy etc by copping to and owning his sins and submitting to Scripture as a Pastor/Elder and taking the pressure off his family, his small remaining staff and board and elders and even Chuck Smith.
I will not suffer the injustice or the injustice Bob has done to others. Bob Grenier sinned. He committed the child abuse. He committed the many sins and wrongs to many many others. I do not accept that he walks off scott-free and continues to hurt people, while I lose my mother and my grandkids lose their grandmother and my brothers lose their mother and my bro’s daughter loses her grandmother. All the people Bob has hurt over the years at Calvary Chapel Visalia have lost friends, family and many relationships and even their reputations in some circles thanks to Bob Grenier.
It’s wrong. It has to stop now.
Alex, I agree 100% with your comment. I also believe you have been equipped and have been called to do what you are doing. If it’s Gods will to take out Bob & other CC pastors, it will happen. It grieves Him and it should grieve us that so many have been so hurt by one “movement”
I think what hurts so much for me is how so many Pastor/leaders from that tribe just stand by and watch, doing nothing. They are gutless and I have no respect for them. Tolerance is condoning and I find that disgusting! I look forward to seeing how this turns out.
When David (of the OT) heard Goliath making a mockery of God, he knew he HAD to stand up to him, out of principle.
Allowing a pastor to remain unrepentant, continuing in sin, wreaking havoc on many others, is a mockery of God and a blight on His Church. Standing up to him is a must. Those who continue to live in denial as to their role, their obligation as an affiliated pastor or a pastor in the same town, aid the one making mockery of God.
I’ve “listened” for reasonable arguments as to why one would not stand up to Bob Grenier, protect the sheep, provide some accountability as we do brother to brother in Christ; but I’ve yet to hear an argument that doesn’t just sound like evasion of the issue in self-protection. I hear fear. Maybe just too many skeletons in the closet to call another to account.
We’re all sinners, skeletons everywhere … but maybe not all have been through thorough repentance process and just hushed up and swept under the rug. If so, then there’s reason to keep quiet, but then also reason that one is disqualified to lead.
Looking for that new thread …
when the time is right.
Alex, to ask for two weeks time for resolve of your issues, and then leave you hanging, without any communication of progress is unkind. It’s discouraging that people are more concerned with CYA than doing the right thing, or choosing expediency over integrity.
Once a CC Guru asked, “Question… If a pastor sins or stumbles, whether it be child abuse, porn, adultery, lying, greed, etc. How should he repent? Publicly or privately with those involved. Should he step down or go through a counseling process of restoration, both? Who decides what actions should be taken? Who is the judge to say, OK that fulfills our requirement of repentance?
___________________
(” The church should do everything possible to minister to those who have sinned and repented. But that does not include restoring the mantle of leadership to a man who has disqualified himself and forfeited the right to lead. Doing so is unbiblical and lowers the standard God has set.”)
” It has always saddened me over the years as I’ve watched church leaders bring a reproach on the church of Jesus Christ. What’s shocking to me is how frequently Christian leaders sin grossly, then step back into leadership almost as soon as the publicity dies away.
Some time ago I received a CD that disturbed me greatly. It was a recording of the recommissioning service of a pastor who had made national news by confessing to an adulterous affair. After little more than a year of “counseling and rehabilitation,” this man was returning to public ministry with his church’s blessing.
That is happening everywhere. Restoration teams–equipped with manuals to instruct the church on how to reinstate their fallen pastor–wait like tow-truck drivers on the side of the highway, anticipating the next leadership “accident”. Our church has received inquiries wondering if we have written guidelines or a workbook to help restore fallen pastors to leadership. Many no doubt expect that a church the size of ours would have a systematic rehabilitation program for sinning leaders.
Gross sin among Christian leaders is a signal that something is seriously wrong with the church. But an even greater problem is the lowering of standards to accommodate a leader’s sin. That the church is so eager to bring these men back into leadership is a symptom of rottenness at the core.
Some have claimed that a leader’s failure makes him more effective in shepherding fallen people. That is ludicrous. Should we drag the bottom of sin’s cesspool for the most heinous sinners to lead the church? Are they better able to understand the sinner? Certainly not! Our pattern for ministry is the sinless Son of God. The church is to be like Him and her leaders are to be our models of Christlikeness.
We must recognize that leadership in the church cannot be regarded lightly. The foremost requirement of a church leader is that he be above reproach (1 Timothy 3:2, 10; Titus 1:7). That is a difficult prerequisite, and not everyone can meet it.
There are some sins that irreparably shatter a man’s reputation and disqualify him from a ministry of leadership forever. Even Paul, man of God that he was, said he feared such a possibility. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 he says, “I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.”
When referring to his body, Paul obviously had sexual immorality in view. In 1 Corinthians 6:18 he describes it as a sin against one’s own body–sexual sin is in its own category. Certainly it disqualifies a man from church leadership since he permanently forfeits a blameless reputation as a one-woman man (Proverbs 6:33; 1 Timothy 3:2).
Where did we get the idea that a year’s leave of absence and some counseling can restore integrity to someone who has squandered his reputation and destroyed people’s trust? Certainly not from the Bible. Trust forfeited is not so easily regained. Once purity is sacrificed, the ability to lead by example is lost forever. As my friend Chuck Swindoll once commented when referring to this issue–it takes only one pin to burst a balloon.
What about forgiveness? Shouldn’t we be eager to restore our fallen brethren? To fellowship, yes. But not to leadership. It is not an act of love to return a disqualified man to public ministry; it is an act of disobedience.
By all means we should be forgiving. But we cannot erase the consequences of sin. I am not advocating that we “shoot our wounded.” I’m simply saying that we shouldn’t rush them back to the front lines, and we should not put them in charge of other soldiers. The church should do everything possible to minister to those who have sinned and repented. But that does not include restoring the mantle of leadership to a man who has disqualified himself and forfeited the right to lead. Doing so is unbiblical and lowers the standard God has set.
So why is the contemporary church so eager to be tolerant? I’m certain a major reason is the sin and unbelief that pervade the church. If casual Christians can lower the expectations on their leadership, they will be much more comfortable with their own sin. With lower moral standards, the church becomes more tolerant of sin and less tolerant of holiness. The “sinner-friendly” church is intolerable to God–that is a frightening condition.
Conservative Christians have for most of the previous century focused on the battle for doctrinal purity. And that is good. But we are losing the battle for moral purity. Some of the worst defeats have occurred among our more visible leaders. The church cannot lower the standard to accommodate them. We should hold it higher so we can regain purity. If we lose here, we have utterly failed, no matter how orthodox our confession of faith. We can’t win if we compromise the biblical standard of moral purity.
What should you do in the current crisis? Pray for your church’s leaders. Keep them accountable. Encourage them. Let them know you are following their godly example. Understand that they are not perfect, but continue nonetheless to call them to the highest level of godliness and purity. The church must have leaders who are genuinely above reproach. Anything less is an abomination.”
John MacArthur
——————————————————————————–
If nothing comes of this Chuck stuff, CCAbuse bloggers we have to step up our local pressure. Bob has amassed a fortune off our tithes, even with the considerable lower attendance he could last for years on what is left in the old Reaching Youth fund. He’s done exactly what I predicted last year and gotten rid of all the pastors except his last old dog Mike Buford. He’s streamlined everything but his habits of person spending and that of his son Robert.
There are many @ CCV who still do not know about this site. They need to know! We all attend churches, those pastors need to know.
BOB GRENIER FORCED HIS 1ST BORN SON TO HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH HIM.
We all have our personal issues with Bob and although he may have harmed our families it doesn’t compare to what has happened to Paul.
We need to force this man out! He is evil.
Some may say I am an angry person, I am. I am angry that there is no justice left in this city. I am angry that no reporters have told the whole story. I am angry that no pastors from Visalia have stood against him. I am angry that law enforcement backs him and that city officials admire him.
If we weren’t talking about a pastor and wrote out the list of things this man has done, you would say that this person is very evil, morally depraved, sociopathic and most likely possessed a demon. Men of God don’t do these things.
MEN OF GOD DON’T MOLEST CHILDREN!
MEN OF VISALIA, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING!
Max:
What would you know about these things…you are only a framer. And here you are once again framing the response incorrectly as PC’s attorny did get back to Alex. Buzz off…in Christ’s love of course.
Grateful: Thanks. I’ll never use of attempt to engage in discourse about RRC theology.
RE: What to do with a pastor in sin:
Fist he should repent, as privately as possible, then he should be immediately restored to the pulpit ala David Hocking, Larry Taylor, Brian Michaels, etc.
ANY NOTION THAT THE RESTORATION PROCESS SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH RESTORATION OF THE RELATIONSHIP TO CHRIST IS PURE BALDERDASH. God will take care of that later as He needs as many oracles as He can find. The mere thought that certain sins should disqualify a pastor from ministry is hurtful, unkind, and cuts against restoration itself. God is not mean and gives us many chances.
Max, I feel like a teenage girl waiting for the boy to call for the date he promised. He must’ve lost my number, etc etc. Ridiculous.
Motel, very good points as usual.
Alex-
I wanted to get back to you re this mornings posts.
Alex:”A person who struggles with homosexuality is on equal footing, IMO, with saying that they were “born” with that sin tendency…similar to a person with a propensity to heterosexual lust, etc”
I don’t believe we have a “propensity” to heterosexuality due to anything we choose.
I believe that God gave us those natural instincts and desires based on how he created us male and female, and the natural course of reproducing, whereas the person who struggles with homosexuality is struggling with an unnatural physical union that was not designed by God.
And many in the church call others “Pharisees” purely because they don’t like when you put out too many “rules” where they think “grace” ought to be. Has nothing to do with whether the Pharisees were saved or not.
Sue-
I realize that the topic involves a lot of emotion.
I personally was in a creative field where I not only went to school with many gay men, but worked very closely with many, and had some as friends, and went dancing in the 70′s with them.. so when you say
“They probably don’t know any gay people personally, so they have their ideas.”, that is not the case for me. I don’t believe it is about “ideas” it is about God’s word.
” My neighbors who are gay aren’t hurting anyone. My neighbor who sells drugs is”
Both are hurting someone. God.
We hurt God when we sin against him.
I believe that Gay Marriage is hurting this country. It was not ordained by God, because marriage was to be one man and one woman.
Done with the subject
Hannah said, “I don’t believe we have a “propensity” to heterosexuality due to anything we choose.
I believe that God gave us those natural instincts and desires based on how he created us male and female”
What about hermaphrodites? Research True hermaphroditism. They are born with it.
I think God “intended” male and female and desire for opposite sex. I think “sin” entered the World and screwed it all up. I think people can be born with the desire to the same sex as they were not intended, and I think people can be born with a tendency to violence, which God did not intend, etc etc.
God did not create us to do any of the sins or to have desires for any of the sins, but we’ve got them. We were tempted, we fell. The rest is a result of the Fall, IMO.
Hannah, I hear you on the Pharisee part, many people throw the term around (I am one) with different applications and meanings (to them).
Alex, re is it possible for one sin to be worse than another? You said yes as far hurting others. But responded “No” as far as scripture is concerned.
Consider jn 19:11 “therefore the one who delivered Me unto you has THE GREATER SIN.” Why would Jesus say such a thing?
And, are we to equate a widow who steals a loaf of bread because her children are hungry to a serial murderer who murders innocent women or men or even children because he finds it sexually stimulating? God forbid!
And, why is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit such a dreadful sin that it is unforgivable?
Romans is pretty clear as to why these men and women are specifically given over to this unatural or abnormal behaviour…because they deliberately suppressed the truth….because what may be known of God is plain to every man, woman, and child being seen in them by the things we do see(the. Sun, moon and stars, sky etc.) And in so doing they deliberately choose to suppress truth.
This can happen to anyone man, woman or child this God’s punishment for those who deliberately choose not love truth. If u want to know how much God detest deliberately suppressing truth, goto 2 thess 2:8-12. And, by the way, if anyone thinks christians are above this, think again. Or else why does Paul speak of those who stray from the truth in 1 tim 6:9? How can u stray from something unless u actually possesed it to begin with? Wake up church and consider the ten virgins in mat 25 as well as our Lord’s letter to the
7 churches.
Bob Grenier is not the only Calvary Chapel Pastor that has gotten rich of the backs of the sheep, this is an epidemic that plagues Instituional Christianity. Funny how these false sheperds say the Sabbath is for the old testament but are quick to say the tithe is for today.
Funny Alex- I once found a homosexual worm or something like that.
And I know a hermaphrodite.
From what I remember about my research, genetic testing would reveal if they are male or female. Years ago the Dr would decide for the parent what to raise them based on what they looked like physically.
But Alex, that is the rarity.
I don’t think this is the same as homosexuality, is it?
Are you saying that it is a learned behavior for 99.9% of males to desire females and vice versa?
Alex:”I think people can be born with the desire to the same sex as they were not intended”
I don’t think this kind of desire happens till pubery. Maybe for some it is a hormonal imbalance.
I also listened to a man years ago on Christian radio who was molested by an uncle at 8 and had a father who abused him physically and he believed this all contributed to his homosexual tendencies. He realized it was love he wanted not the physical part., He didn’t get love from his father. And then the uncle molestation messed him in other ways. A lot of guilt.
Juan, you make some valid points. Good push-back.JH
Positionally, sin cannot be a Hierarchy. Necessarily so. “A” sin, any sin damns one to hell (separation from God, eternal fire, or whatever hell is, besides Rob Bell’s version).
John 19:11
Jesus isn’t making a statement on a Hierarchy of Sin, Positionally, in terms of “heaven” or “hell”….maybe with regards to Bema Seat Judgment for a believer, but not Positionally as Jesus condemns both Pilate and the Jews, but rhetorically asserts the Jews’ sin is more heinous as they “know” what they are doing (intentional sin)…but Pilate is by no means excused from hell if he is outside of Christ.
Calvin makes a good commentary here: “Therefore he who delivered me to thee. Some think that this declares the Jews to be more guilty than Pilate, because, with wicked hatred and malicious treachery, they are enraged against an innocent man, that is, those of them who were private individuals, and not clothed with lawful authority. But I think that this circumstance renders their guilt more heinous and less excusable on another ground, that they constrain a divinely appointed government to comply with their lawless desires; for it is a monstrous sacrilege to pervert a holy ordinance of God for promoting any wickedness. The robber, who, with his own hand, cuts the throat of a wretched passenger, is justly held in abhorrence; but he who, under the forms of a judicial trial, puts to death an innocent man, is much more wicked. Yet Christ does not aggravate their guilt, for the purpose of extenuating that of Pilate; for he does not institute a comparison between him and them, but rather includes them all in the same condemnation, because they equally pollute a holy power. There is only this difference, that he makes direct attack on the Jews, but indirectly censures Pilate, who complies with their wicked desire.”
Matthew Henry here: “[2.] He mildly excuses and extenuates his sin, in comparison with the sin of the ringleaders: “Therefore he that delivered me unto thee lies under greater guilt; for thou as a magistrate hast power from above, and art in thy place, thy sin is less than theirs who, from envy and malice, urge thee to abuse thy power.”
First, It is plainly intimated that what Pilate did was sin, a great sin, and that the force which the Jews put upon him, and which he put upon himself in it, would not justify him. Christ hereby intended a hint for the awakening of his conscience and the increase of the fear he was now under. The guilt of others will not acquit us, nor will it avail in the great day to say that others were worse than we, for we are not to be judged by comparison, but must bear our own burden.
Secondly, Yet theirs that delivered him to Pilate was the greater sin. By this it appears that all sins are not equal, but some more heinous than others; some comparatively as gnats, others as camels; some as motes in the eyes, others as beams; some as pence, others as pounds. He that delivered Christ to Pilate was either, 1. The people of the Jews, who cried out, Crucify him, crucify him. They had seen Christ’s miracles, which Pilate had not; to them the Messiah was first sent; they were his own; and to them, who were now enslaved, a Redeemer should have been most welcome, and therefore it was much worse in them to appear against him than in Pilate. 2. Or rather he means Caiaphas in particular, who was at the head of the conspiracy against Christ, and first advised his death, ch. 11:49, 50. The sin of Caiaphas was abundantly greater than the sin of Pilate. Caiaphas prosecuted Christ from pure enmity to him and his doctrine, deliberately and of malice prepense. Pilate condemned him purely for fear of the people, and it was a hasty resolution which he had not time to cool upon. 3. Some think Christ means Judas; for, though he did not immediately deliver him into the hands of Pilate, yet he betrayed him to those that did. The sin of Judas was, upon many accounts, greater than the sin of Pilate. Pilate was a stranger to Christ; Judas was his friend and follower. Pilate found no fault in him, but Judas knew a great deal of good of him. Pilate, though biassed, was not bribed, but Judas took a reward against the innocent; the sin of Judas was a leading sin, and let in all that followed. He was a guide to them that took Jesus. So great was the sin of Judas that vengeance suffered him not to live; but when Christ said this, or soon after, he was gone to his own place.”
For consideration.
Juan, I would assert that “consequences” are different amongst the many sins…and one of the “consequences” is being given over more and more to sin and/or the particular sin.
Tiger Woods is a great example.
Lust is insatiable and unquenchable and left unchecked leads to Tiger Woods…and worse.
However, show me the one sin that doesn’t buy you a ticket to hell…outside of Christ.
Show me the one sin that buys you a ticket to hell w/ no opportunity for forgiveness in Christ? Unbelief can’t be that sin, if one is “in Christ”.
Juan, again, societally, there is a Hierarchy to sin, certainly. Part of the “Worse Consequences” for the individual I asserted earlier.
If you steal, murder etc you go to jail, etc.
If you jay-walk, you might not even get a ticket. If you steal a towel from a hotel room, you’re probably not going to get prosecuted, etc.
If you engage full speed into a heterosexual promiscuous lifestyle or a homosexual lifestyle, there will be consequences that are more severe than say willfully violating the speeding laws by 10 miles an hour, etc.
Alex,
Are you saying that a person living a homosexual lifestyle is in a “belief” relationship with God?
How can they “believe” God when what they are doing is living a lifestyle (not sinning sporadically-but in a lifestyle) opposed to God?
I also believe there are many levels to hell.
Hitler will not be in the same place as the habitual liar who rejected the gospel.
Hannah said, “Are you saying that it is a learned behavior for 99.9% of males to desire females and vice versa?”
No Hannah, not at all. I think in the vast majority of cases, as God intended, opposite sexes attract.
However, God did not intend deformity, God did not intend hermaphrodites, God did not intend sin, death, sickness etc…yet here it is. Thanks Adam, thanks sin!
Solomon,
I use the example you used all the time about the Sabbath and the tithe, but I also carry it further to include Pork and shellfish eating, and the manditory yearly celebration of the Passover.
Is John Macarthur the only Pastor on earth that teaches against the tithe?
Interesting to me that so many Christians hyper-focus on the sin of homosexuality yet turn a blind eye to so many other sins. Lying, gossip, stealing, adultery, and in this instant blog, child abuse.
Just an observation.
Hannah, I would be very concerned about any “saved” sinner continuing in a lifestyle of sin (like Bob Grenier). That is a valid concern.
A person attracted to the same sex who is “saved”, yet going full bore into the homosexual lifestyle and lusting all the time and engaging in homosexual sex all the time…I would be very concerned about that person. They certainly shouldn’t be a Pastor/Elder.
OK Alex
BTW, is today the “deadline” for the correspondence? So can I leave my computer??
Hannah said, “I also believe there are many levels to hell.
Hitler will not be in the same place as the habitual liar who rejected the gospel.”
I see this in “Dante’s Inferno” and Milton’s “Paradise Lost”, but I don’t find this in Scripture.
I would be more concerned about their salvation…but when I started to be more concerned about my own salvation, rather than try and figure out who was saved and who wasn’t, God was more pleased!
I was born to lust for chocolate, but I don’t eat it all day
And I find that if I eat healthier, those cravings magically disappear! So it is a matter of faulty biochemistry. And as you said sin can do a whole lotta harm , plus the toxic , genetically engineered diet we are fed from Monsanto! ( a whole nuther topic!)
Yes, Hannah, today is the 2 week point. I was told I’d hear something by today and agreed to be relatively quiet.
I emailed earlier today and left a message with Chuck’s attorney.
I’m not a happy camper at the moment…
Alex- Do you think we will all have the same positions in heaven?
Alex-
Sorry to hear that.
Hannah, I think we’ll have the Bema Seat Judgment and some will get rewards, some will suffer loss. That’s all I think Scripture speaks to with regards to that question.
Though there are the “He who wants to be ‘Greatest’ in the Kingdom, must be servant of all” etc…which implies a Hierarchy in heaven…but it’s not very definitive IMO.
Oliver Twist said
“Interesting to me that so many Christians hyper-focus on the sin of homosexuality yet turn a blind eye to so many other sins. Lying, gossip, stealing, adultery, and in this instant blog, child abuse.”
Some may do this but it still doesn’t invalidate the message that it is sin. You can still address homosexuality and address other sins as well. It doesn’t always have to be done at the same time. The backlash against those who speak out against homosexuality is always “why do you focus on that sin?”, well why not focus on that for a moment as we are doing now, there will still be time to address adulterers, liars, cowards, drunkards, socerers etc.
Macarthur has some good teachings on heaven. He usually gives much scripture to back up his sermons. I know alof of people don’t care for him. Yeah, I think if in heaven there are positions, why wouldn’t it be the case in hell? It does make more sense to me. There are people like some of my family members who rejected the gospel, and it would be hard for me to imagine that God would jusge them the same way as Hitler, and theres a lot we don’t know about heaven…
Anyway, I have to run. I will keep praying for you Alex!
Hannah said, “Yeah, I think if in heaven there are positions, why wouldn’t it be the case in hell?”
I guess it’s possible, but it would be a guess.
From a purely Sola Scriptura perspective, the Bible doesn’t speak to degrees of hell, so any assertion to such would be extra-biblical and conjecture.
There are “implications” and inferences that can be drawn regarding degrees of punishment in hell…but nothing concrete, IMO.
There’s a parable or two, tough to Proof Text a Parable. There are some other verses that hint at degrees, but nothing I’d hang my hat on.
Sue, I’m glad I’m not alone here on the issue of gay christians. It grieves me to see some of the harshness and bitterness towards my christian brothers and sisters.
I get so tired of people picking and choosing verses from the bible out of context to support their point of view.
Here are several verses from Leviticus that I never see mentioned when people condemn homosexuality:
Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”
Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”
No tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 reads, “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.”
Leviticus 19:19 reads, “You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.”
Leviticus 11:10 reads, “But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you.”
And one from Genesis:
Genesis 38:9-10: “Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.”
So I guess everyone on this thread abides by ALL of the Levitical law.
Wendy
The Levitical Law was for the Israelites only.
What is the connection you are making with those verses and homosexuality?
I see it as there are two (2) types of people according to the Bible: believers and non-believers. And God requires we love them both.
I don’t think you have to address the issue of homosexuality as a sin with other sins. It can be addressed singularly.
I’ve just observed that Bob Grenier and a handful of other Calvary Pastors, namely Raul Ries and David Rosales, hyper-focuses on this issue and turn a blind eye to pornography, adultery, and spousal and child abuse. I’m speaking as a first hand witness to these men turning a blind eye to the aforementioned sins while focusing squarely on homosexuality as being a greater sin.
One of the best arguments I’ve heard for homosexuality not being a sin is this one:
How many times did Jesus speak to the issue of homosexuality?
However, the New Testament speaks to the issue as “sin” here:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality
However, I’m in that list above, but not for homosexuality, but for a couple other things in my lifetime…as are many Calvary Chapel pastors, btw.
OT said, “I’ve just observed that Bob Grenier and a handful of other Calvary Pastors, namely Raul Ries and David Rosales, hyper-focuses on this issue and turn a blind eye to pornography, adultery, and spousal and child abuse. I’m speaking as a first hand witness to these men turning a blind eye to the aforementioned sins while focusing squarely on homosexuality as being a greater sin.”
Yes, this is true, in my experience and opinion.
Wendy,
We are not under the burden of the levitical law. Why do people have a problem when truth is proclaimed? Those who are his love the truth which is in his word. If you practiced homosexulaity in the past and have repented then you are not a homosexual but instead you are a born again christian hence there is no such thing as a homosexual christian. There is such a thing as a christian that has practiced that in the past and if they are disobedient to the lord they can be suscpetible to go back to their vomit.
1 Corinthians 1 18-25- Beware of the wisdom of the world
Some scripture to support last post about different judgements:
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Parable of the Wicked Servant: RE: Hell- Notice the number of lashes mentioned
Luke 12:42-48
And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
From OT Re: some sins worse than others:
Exodus 21:23-25
Deuteronomy 25:2-3
My last 2 in moderation
Solomon,
I agree with you.
The anger seems to be directed at those who are just saying what the bible is saying.
Does this lifestyle contradict His Word or doesn’t it?
Right now we are on that subject.
We can talk about any sin and focus on that one sin, but by constantly bringing up other sins and trying to say that because we are all sinners, somehow that takes the homosexual lifestyle off the hook, is really avoiding the issue at hand.
It grieves me that every state in this once God fearing country is now allowing gay marriage which takes God further out of this country and IMO opens up Gods wrath. To say that people are born gay makes God responsible for it.
Why isn’t anyone who supports gay Christians asking if God would support gay marriage? Is it in the Bible or isn’t it?
This is not gay bashing, this is having a reasonable conversation about the moral decay of the family in this country. It is not about the person, it is about the sin.
Alex, Regarding comment 516 & 517 I think that Motel has bedbugs. Fully aware that PC’s atty so graciously called you after you called him. Framer is just a small part of who I am but the sum total is still insignificant. The Tailor’s comments stung a little until I read his ridiculous comments about pastor reconciliation. I understand just how important “God’s Oracles” are and how much we sheep need them to shepherd us. Probably the most important service to God that we could provide would be being an apologist for these Pastors when they are entangled in their indescretions.
Yup Hannah,
It’s the age old, attack the messenger. I know something about that since I’m a process server.
Solomon-Ironic how God prepared you. Or maybe you were a “Prophet” first
Stop the world – I want to get off! I cannot believe the insanity of everyone on here! We’ve heard enough evidence! Who gives a crap what Chuck Smith says! Start the war! Picket, put up billboards, there are plenty of radio shows that would carry this story. Alex – write a book and get some savvy internet guru to get it to #1 on Amazon. Make the pressure unbearable! You’ve all been led to believe that Christians are supposed to be doormats! Hogwash! Jesus overturned the moneychangers tables – he didn’t wait for the Pharisees to give their opinions. CC will never give in – make them pay!
Hannah: I didn’t make my comment in anger at anyone bringing up the sin of homosexuality. I was actually quite clear that it was an observation I was making related to Bob Grenier, David Rosales, and Raul Ries.
Second, not every state in this great country allows gay marriage. And I agree that it is a travesty that there has been a moral decay of the family in our country. I’m certain the high divorce rate of people whom are legally married has in no doubt contributed to this decay as much as homosexuality or other sins.
I have no real opinion on either side of the issue. I was merely commenting on 3 specific Calvary Pastors that I have sat under and heard their teachings and watched them turn a blind eye to sins committed by Pastors on their staff. As well as those named Pastors engaging in many of those sins (and others not listed) themselves.
Nobody was shooting the messenger.
Anonanon: I ‘m with you. I book guests on Dr. Phil and would offer my services to Alex any time. Let’s get going and leave the rest of these bloggers to prayer.
Max: I can agree with you on but one point you make. Your sum total is insignificant compared to me. Who asked you to comment here anyway?
Alex says:
September 23, 2011 at 4:34 pm
“…. today is the 2 week point. I was told I’d hear something by today and agreed to be relatively quiet.”
*************
Alex, I’m so sorry for how you’ve been treated by Chuck Smith. It adds insult to injury for him not to man-up and -at a minimum- be upfront with you that he wasn’t going to do anything. To leave you without a word from him till the last minute is despicable. He may have looked you in the eyes and convincingly told you he “loves” you, but his actions have spoken much louder than his hollow words.
What your own step-father, Bob Grenier, continues to do is without excuse, as well. It’s egregious, it’s evil.
Anyone who won’t stand up with you, against these men, will pay a price, too. I suspect more than a few people are figuring out their CC pastor, or local Visalia pastor, is not worthy of respect as they cover over Bob’s sins, excuse their silence which communicates support of Bob Grenier.
So many of these CC pastors actually say on their websites that they are ministries or outreaches of CCCM, or that Chuck Smith is their pastor, yet, they claim they are too independent to hold another “brother” in Christ, another fellow pastor, another affiliate -or in association with- in CC to account. What I hear when I listen to them is not only are they not loving you, Alex, but they are not loving Bob Grenier. They are also not loving their own sheep by being a shepherd who does the right thing, or the best thing, or even something.
I’m just really sorry that you’ve been so betrayed, “with a kiss” (an “I love you”). I grieve that it’s come to this.
So many were holding out hope that Chuck would follow through as he promised or implied, or whatever impression he gave. So many are crushed with the truth today. There’s a bit of a stunned silence from those in my area who only knew him from afar. Their image of Chuck Smith has been shattered today. Those who’ve remained in CC, though disillusioned, have awoken. They are now faced with choices that look more now like right vs. wrong, as opposed to the grey that filled their wold as they tried to hang on in CC.
So just what does it mean when these pastors say, “Chuck Smith is my pastor” ?
or … “We are an outreach of CCCM” ?
Why bother being “affiliated” or “in association with” CCCM or Chuck Smith or Calvary Chapel?
Wendy C #544 I totally agree. It is one of those areas that I disagree with most Christians on.
I am not worried about the family being ruined by gay marriage. I personally think it’s great when they want to be monogomous, but I don’t expect anyone here to agree with me. I think back when I was still a teen, and a youth leader of a home bible study tried to make a move on me. I didn’t go for it. But what a blow. I had had so much respect for him and he was married with kids. I knew his wife pretty good. That kind of thing is what will bring moral decay to the family. I found out later I wasn’t the first he tried this on. I didn’t have a blog to talk about this on back then. Too bad – He went on doing it after me too. I last saw him drive by sitting up close to some other young female.
Well I know one who is not anymore.
My husband and I prayed about our decision and knew where the symptoms of the
abuse lie and that is at the hand of these leaders and the Moses’ Model. No accountability!
Christians have allowed sin to take over our churches and now we are paying the piper.
Look at how unbelievers look at us now- with disdain. We could not for once just stick with our Savior and trust in Him. I guess we are no different than the OT Israelites when they worshipped the many gods instead of the true God- Elohim.
We have churches filled with abuse, sexual immorality, false teachings, New Age practices of meditation and mysticism, greed, etc. It is time that anyone who has contributed to these practices needs to step down for the sake of Christ and the Gospel. It is time to get real.
Sue
None of us that spoken about homosexuality in any way have disdain and hatred toward someone who is a homosexual or who is still struggling with homosexual tendencies.
My daughter has a friend that is a homosexual and sees him regularly and I do not refrain her from seeing him- No I tell her to tell him the good news of Jesus Christ. I do not tell her to bring up his sin of homosexuality, but to bring up Christ and that he is a sinner in need of a Savior. But you have to understand that just like adultery, homosexuality needs to be dealt with especially for the one who is a homosexual. For his or her sake, if they keep in their sin willingly and not repent ( and I am not talking about those who are Christians and struggle with thoughts or desires) they have not trusted in the risen Savior. They will go to hell. So are we being unkind or loving when we share with them the truth? Which is better – to telll them that it is ok to be in their sin or snatch their lives from the fire?
By the way, just a question. What about adultery, beastiality, witchcraft and pedophilia ? Should we not then have the same discussion as we have had about homosexuality? Would we be so benevolent in our speech now?
The question here is not that we all don’t know that we are ALL sinners and deserve hell.
But we also know that sin can breed into bigger sin which does result in catastrophic consequences and homosexualtiy, plus adultery; plus alcoholism, etc without repentance can harm society. The Bible has countless accounts of such catastropic consequences- Cain; Noah; Abraham and the slave girl Hagar; Sodom and Gomorrah; Jacob and his wives and ….sons (rape, and so on); Samson and Delilah; the many kings of Israel; Judas’ etc. Why does God give these accounts of certain specific sins – to show us that the sins of pride, greed, selfishness, lust can lead to this.
I know a man from my home town, my class in school. He is a pedophile. I care for him, his soul. But his acting on his desire is sin.
I knew 2 personal friends, who I discovered were homosexuals while in Bible College. They knew it was wrong, based on Romans 1. They had repented. One remained celibate, while the other fell away, later. They both clearly articulated the Romans 1 position, and agreed that God said it was wrong to act on their desires.
I would, personally, like to be a mass murderer; but alas, I’m not allowed to act out such “tendencies.” (wink)
All three of the people I know were molested as children, which they claim hardwired them towards their same sex, and for one towards children. The later worked with RCC priests in an RCC youth outreach.
I still care for and pray for these people. They, themselves, feel they are in bondage, except the one who remained celibate feels a sense of freedom over controlling/ damaging sin. I love them, though fully understand their participation in their besetting sin removes them from fellowship. God have mercy on us all!
I’ve certainly sinned in such ways that the ceiling was as brass when I prayed. Clearly there was a separation from God when I walked in my sin willingly. Once broken, contrite, though definitely struggling, the fellowship was restored, though consequences were still part of the package. The Holy Spirit gave me the grace needed to walk through my retraining, my discipline.
It’s like a fire, we lean into it, let God melt us, and then remake us in His image. Once you’ve been through a serious repentance, you realize that is the power of God! He gives us the courage to walk through it, the strength to face the truth and own it, along with the incredible God given power to change. Praise God! This great mysterious gift is Christ in us! May our cracked pots let His light shine through!
Wake up oh sleepers and return to the Lord! Let us all return to our first Love…back into the loving arms of our gracious Saviour. For He chastens those whom He loves. If you feel the chastening of the Lord in these last days, do not be discouraged, do not resist, but instead be encouraged for the Lord chastens those whom He loves else you would be bastards. Embrace the working of the Lord in your life and return to Him who gave Himself and laid down his life for you.
Are we really going to allow our house to be broken into? Dont you get it my brothers and sisters? Most church going members today have their ANCHORS in these MAN MADE INSTITUTIONS. We are not allowed to do that. No sir! As true believers in Christ, we are not allowed to have man made ANCHORS or SECURITY BLANKETS in our lives. The only ANCHOR we are allowed to have is Christ and His precious Word. 2 tim 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
As the famous actor Jack Nicholson once shouted in one notorious court scene “You Can’t handle the truth.” The apostle Paul once said to the corinthians “are you angry with me because I told you the truth?” In another place the Psalmist says “let a righteous man strike me on the face and it shall be as oil upon my head.” Don’t these people who resist the truth realise that one of the main themes of proverbs is “to love and embrace correction”? In proverbs it says “it is foolishness and shame for a man to decide on a matter before he hears it.”
The reason these institutionalized church members resist the truth is because to do so would mean that their ANCHORS or SECURITY BLANKETS would be pulled out from under them. This terrifies them. Instead, we are to be lovers of truth and couragious come what may for the righteous are as bold as a lion. We need not be afraid in our quest for truth; even if that means trashing some of our long held erroneous beliefs. For truth will always lead back to our precious Saviour Jesus. And, if it does not, then Jesus did not resurrect from the dead and we are all in big trouble anyways because we are all still in our sins.
You see as believers we are supposed to love the truth no matter what that truth might
be. Jesus said ” I am the way the TRUTH and the life…” So many so called believers are afraid to become “bereans” i.e. christian detectives and search out all truth. These so called believers are not willing to be obedient to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” 2 thess 2 vs 8 thru 12 paraphrased “for this reason God will send them strong delusion who did not receive the LOVE OF THE TRUTH but instead SUPPRESSED TRUTH with all unrighteousness. To believe the things spoken of here regarding calvary chapel, would totally pull up their ANCHORS that are deeply rooted in the Calvary Chapel Way. My friends and I call this “rocking their world” or “making them extremely uncomfortable and force them to question their own salvation, otherwise known in scripture as examining ourselves to see if we still be in the faith.” They can’t have this! They must maintain the “status quo” to do otherwise is to scary..revelation 21:8 and all COWARDS will be cast into the lake of fire.
We have so much to say….but it’s late now. good night dear brothers and sisters.
Amen, Juan! I couldn’t agree with you more. There are too many people in “churches” today rely heavily on their pastors or teachers or their particular denomination they “anchor” themselves to instead of relying solely on Christ alone. They are too lazy to “search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11), meaning they rely and believe everything their leaders say and don’t even bother to be a Berean to see if what they say is scripturally correct in the right context. They are blindly following false teachers to the ditch. They must break away from that by being brutally honest with themselves about what’s going on in institutionalized churches led by false teachers and pastors. Being ripped away like that really hurts but it is necessary because TRUTH is what matters. They must, like you said, Juan, with scripture saying we all should “examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves.” (2 Cor. 13:5). I love my brothers and sisters out there and it breaks my heart and also angry that they are being led away from the real Truth, which is Christ Jesus and Him only! John 8:32 says, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”, and when we seek truth through His word, it will indeed make you free from the deception from false leaders and churches. So let’s dig deeper into God’s precious word and obey it!
Alex, Paul, Geoff, and others,
Dared to show what’s under the covers,
Of men who only speak the Truth,
Yet live to only beat their ‘brothers’.
Sad but true,
it’s now in front of you,
to decide what you will do.
Juan and Uber, Amen!! Friends and acquaintances of mine who attend CC have shared that they do not leave because their friends go there. It’s comfortable. They’ve all been there for years. I understand this mentality, but we cannot be spiritually lazy. Church is not a big christian club! Our loyalty should be to God, not man.
I just wanted to apoligize to you guys if I came off as bitchy, angry or offensive with my post the other day. Obviously there are strong emotions on both sides of the gay christian debate, but I count you all as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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