Sep 242011
 

The Wizard of Costa Mesa. Chuck Smith is a man. He's not a 100% bad or a 100% good, just like the rest of us. However, he knows the right thing to do, he "believes" us and should deal with Bob Grenier as he is Bob's "Pastor".

I’m obviously disappointed that I didn’t hear from Chuck Smith or his attorney, Janet Carter, yesterday regarding the Bob Grenier situation (though I emailed and left a message asking what the verdict was).

Basically, the deal was for me to be quiet for two weeks while Chuck Smith read the pile of testimonies and chewed on the in-person testimonies and information/argument and requests from our meeting.

Of course, I’m human. Of course, I’m not a happy camper. However, I’m not some irrational completely emotion-driven psycho that some would want to caricature me. Like any of you out there, and Chuck Smith included, I’m a mix of normal human being with all the flaws and emotions that come with that condition. I’m also not an idiot (though my wife would disagree sometimes…and rightfully so :smile: )

The fact I didn’t hear anything yesterday tells me a few possibilities: 1. This isn’t that important to Chuck Smith and he’ll get to it when he gets around to it and the two week thing was important to me and not so much to him. 2. The lawyers got to him and told him to put up the Stone Wall, and the meeting was more of a fact-finding info-collecting meeting for Chuck and the attorneys to see what I had (but they don’t know all I’ve got ;-) ). 3. Raul Ries, David Rosales and Roger Wing went to bat for Bob Grenier and Chuck’s going to punt (which is essentially supporting Bob). 4. Chuck’s pride got in the way, as he probably doesn’t like a young PK punk giving him deadlines and telling him what to do. 5. Dementia is setting in and he sincerely doesn’t even remember we had a meeting :smile:

It could be a combo of all the above and I guess it’s possible it’s something else…including, he reviewed everything, even the “smoking gun” evidence regarding the physical child abuse and he also heard Paul’s molestation allegations (through me and confirmed by Dave Rolph) and read the pile of testimonies from a portion of the many hurt by Bob Grenier at Calvary Chapel Visalia over the years…and decided he can’t or won’t do anything.

Heck, maybe he tried. That seemed to be implied in the meeting, but with lack of dialogue, I’m left to speculate.

Here’s what I do know. We had a meeting, we discussed many things, I was asked to be quiet for two weeks (“submit to Chuck’s authority”..but I thought he doesn’t have any? It does get confusing at times) and let Chuck Smith sort it out…and that at the end of two weeks, he’d get back to me.

Here’s what else I know. Yesterday was two weeks and “it” didn’t happen.

My experiences to date with dealing with Bob Grenier and the Calvary Chapel situation tells me that transparency is absolutely necessary in dealing with these matters. Every single time I have played by the Calvary Chapel “rules” of keeping quiet and playing their game, nothing good comes out of it (unless you’re the abusive pastor and Calvary Chapel). That’s my experience several times over now (and I’ve tried that route with zero success with Bob and his Elders privately, with Bob’s Board privately, with Gary Ruff, Raul Ries and David Rosales privately…nada). Others may have had different experiences with Calvary Chapel.

Here’s what happened at the meeting as straightforward as I can relay it (in terms of removing the natural tendency to frustration and anger when being Stone Walled. I didn’t remove personality, but tried to not be “angry”):

We arrived at the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa campus on MacArthur Blvd. a little before 1:00 p.m. PST. I initially walked into the offices on the Church / School campus and was redirected to the Logos Building up the road where the meeting was to be held.

We went to the Logos Building (multi-story professional looking office type building, I was told it used to be the Raytheon Building, I could be wrong). Impressive digs. Not a small office building by any stretch. I think it has 6 or 7 floors, very un-churchy, but kind of cool and functional…like Calvary Chapel a bit (but also very business-y, kind of like CC as well).

After a couple of laps around the main floor (met a couple of people, a young staff/pastor named Baron was one…nice young innocent dough-eyed looking fellow, very typical demeanor and spirit of mainstream evangelical pastors I’ve met a hundred times before. Pleasant, polite, good-hearted, etc. (or he fooled me :smile: ). Here’s a picture of Baron, you be the judge…I think he’s a nice guy: https://plus.google.com/106078920656751293583/posts

So, we rapped with Baron a little, we peeked into the Pastor’s Conference Room, I believe it was called…and we waited for Chuck and Dave Rolph to show up for the meeting. I was a little geeked up, more excited than nervous. Just wanted to get it on. My bro was pretty chill, my wife was…looking very pretty (I didn’t notice much else, she has that effect on me :smile: I lose my train of thought every time ;-) ).

Not long after 1:00 p.m. here comes Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph and someone I didn’t recognize. Chuck was warmly greeted by several staff, the famous big Chuck Smile (trademark logo here) was on display…sincerely, he has an engaging smile and comes across very warm and loving. He is well-loved at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, I can tell you that. The people there embrace him like he’s their grandfather, not a boss. There is definitely sincere love and respect for the man at CCCM and he was extremely kind to the people, including my wife and my brother’s girlfriend and daughter.

Dave Rolph was taller and thinner than I expected (from pictures I’ve seen). He looked fit and like he can still ju-jitsu a dude into a rear-naked choke. Dave, goatee, dark curly haired wig (get you looking like Daniel Fusco) and you’ll be ready to take on Acts29.

Then walks in Chuck’s attorney, Janet Carter. Long dark hair, not tall, not short, medium build. I smelled the attorney on her right away (sorry Sheck, you guys have a smell :smile: ). [UPDATE: A friend confronted me about the sophomoric description of Janet Carter. I was being a jerk. Guilty. It's been edited].

After the warm greetings between Chuck and his staff, and after some brief introductions, we assembled in the Pastor’s Conference Room…typical Board Room setting, average size, conference table, chairs, ceiling, floor, door, typical stuff.

In the meeting are Dave Rolph, Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills (sitting across from me to my left a little), then moving left to right from my vantage point is Chuck Smith (no other introduction needed) and to Chuck’s right is his attorney, Janet Carter (edited). To my immediate right is my bro Geoff…all 6’1″ and 250 lbs. of him. He still looks like he can suit up and play for a top-tier college football team or in the NFL.

I’ll be frank, I dove (not duv, doooove) right in. I confirmed Janet was an attorney and hit Chuck and Dave pretty hard. There was very little chit-chat, we got right down to business…and make no mistake, that’s what it was…more of an intense business negotiation than something Spiritual. I may have been less business-mode, had Chuck not shown up with an attorney, but it is what it is.

Right from the get-g0, “Chuck, I’m here because I want you to yank Bob Grenier’s dove…Dis-Affiliate him…and I want you to institute reforms within Calvary Chapel to protect children recommended by Kelly Clark.” (Kelly Clark is one of the, if not “the” leading Child Abuse Advocates in the Nation).

Chuck Smith, “I can’t do that” (on the yanking Bob’s dove and Dis-Affiliation). Though, Chuck straightaway agreed verbally to institute recommended reforms by Kelly Clark at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and to “recommend” the reforms to the other 1,200 “independent” Calvary Chapels.

I’ve heard Chuck likes kids, I don’t think he likes people abusing or molesting children, he was very kind to my bro’s girlfriend and my bro’s daughter, etc. It’s not like Chuck is thrilled with Dino Cardelli, Iglesias (the guy who molested the four young men who Tim Kosnoff is representing in a lawsuit against Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel) and Bob Grenier. I get that. Chuck’s not pro-Child Abuse and Molestation….but, IMO, Chuck is very pro “Not my responsibility and not my problem.”

The meeting quickly turns to “what do you mean you can’t yank Bob’s dove?”

We then argue about Affiliation. Chuck takes the position that he “can’t” yank doves or Dis-Affiliate anyone and that he doesn’t even know there is “Affiliation” or an “Affiliation Agreement.” I tell him I have a copy of one. He says he’d like to see it, that he has no knowledge of one, etc.

I ask Dave Rolph the same thing. Dave says he has no idea what I’m talking about, this “Affiliation” thing.

I tell them they’re both lying through their teeth, but I get it, we’re going to play the Lawyer Game. Okey dokey. “We no speaka english”…”We have no idea what you’re talking about”, etc etc. There’s a word for that, it comes out of the hind-quarters of a bull.

I tell them I know of several situations where Calvary Chapel pastors have been “Dis-Affiliated” for prostitution solicitation (Jimmy Kempner), for going Calvinist (several examples) and there’s even an instance from the East Coast where a Calvary Chapel Pastor (reportedly) was Dove-Yanked for teaching Topically instead of Verse by Verse. Me, “What do you mean you ‘can’t’ yank Bob’s dove?”

Chuck and Dave continued to vigorously defend their position. The attorney, I think, was the first to interject CCOF. Ah, now I get it. The light is going on…basically, CCOF is “a separate Corporation” and independent and Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa have “no idea” what CCOF does and how they do it etc etc etc. Okey dokey. Hindquarters, bull.

Rolph played along with this in the meeting, but he’s since moderated via email communication and has copped to now knowing there is something whether they call it “Affiliation” or “Fellowship” and that there is a CCOF that exercises some kind of oversight, etc. Of course, I had emailed Chuck’s attorney and Dave Rolph the copy I have of the CCOF “Fellowship” Agreement/Application with screen shots and information from CCOF’s website that spelled out everything I asserted in the meeting.

Chuck’s attorney moderated Chuck’s position as well, post-meeting. In the meeting, it was a hard-line, “No idea what you’re talking about”…and that’s the truth, God be my Judge…and there was no room for ambiguity, I drove the point home as hard as I could and they still didn’t cop to one bit of it on that issue.

During the course of the “Affiliation” argument, I brought up the fact that Calvary Chapel owns the licensing rights to the Dove Logo and name Calvary Chapel. This was denied flatly. I then argued from the Absurd to make a point. I asked Chuck and his attorney if I could open up a Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa II right across the street and use the same Dove Logo and if they’d have a problem with that. They said, “No.” Basically, they said the only thing that could or would stop me was the State of California if it infringed on DBA / corporate name entity stuff, that basically, Calvary Chapel doesn’t have any licensing or enforcement of licensing. Okey dokey. Insert bull here.

It was now crystal clear that this was a Hill Chuck would die on. He doesn’t want to hand over Agency and/or Implied Agency to Kosnoff and lose the lawsuit he’s in. He’ll lie or spin (and justify it, I believe he sincerely thinks he’s righteous in doing so to protect “the Lord’s Work” at CCCM) to not lay down in that suit and potentially others. Chuck is very intelligent and his lawyers are very intelligent. Chuck should’ve listened to Jeff Dorman many years ago when he was warned about going half-way with this pseudo-Denomination Light “Affiliation” and now “Fellowship” thingy, but again, it is what it is. Chuck did take the warning, though, to change it from “Affiliation” to “Fellowship” as “Affiliation” has a legal connotation that screams Agency…so at least he did that some years back (though many Calvary Chapel Pastors still claim they are “Affiliated”, etc).

So, now Chuck has to bob and weave like a boxer to avoid Agency. Got it. Me, “So, what ‘can’ you do about Bob?”

My recollection, the answers were vague. There was implication that Chuck would do something behind the scenes to influence the situation.

My position was that Bob Grenier called Chuck “his Pastor”…from the pulpit, on his website, in his book. Chuck said clearly that he “wasn’t” Bob’s pastor. I said, “Well, that would be news to Bob.” I told Chuck, whether he liked it or not, he was Bob Grenier’s “pastor” and had a Scriptural obligation to deal with him per 1 Timothy 5:19-22.

They did offer a carrot. There was a claim from Chuck’s attorney that she could get my Mom into a “mediation” meeting with me, my bros and the grandkids. This was huge. I hope they don’t withdraw that, that would be very wrong and sinful, IMO.

Chuck did agree to review the large pile of testimonies against Bob. Chuck did listen to me and my bro Geoff (who did a great job, btw…Geoff is very gifted and communicated very well, he was a good moderating voice to my more aggressive and hammering style). At one point my brother Geoff asked Chuck, “Chuck, do you believe me?” Chuck said he did. That was a pretty powerful moment.

There was one particular testimony that was presented that even Dave Rolph agreed was “smoking gun” evidence that Bob was lying about the child abuse. Chuck Smith reviewed that testimony while we sat there in his presence.

A source has come forward and clearly stated on the record that Bob Grenier went to the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board in 1988 (date is my assumption from my recollection of the time period of this particular instance of intense abuse I personally witnessed) and that Bob Grenier told the Board he had “hit Geoff in the face” and that it was only once, basically an isolated incident and that Geoff “deserved discipline”, etc.

Unfortunately, the Board took Bob’s word for the matter and gave him a lot of grace. Also, unfortunately, Bob was lying through his lying liar lips and had “hit, struck” me and Geoff in the face many times prior to that and many times after that date…in this particular instance Bob had “struck” Geoff in the face many times, but closed his fist and hurt the kid really bad, not just bad. In Bob’s delusional world, if you open-hand hit a child in the face and head as hard as you can, it isn’t “hitting” and isn’t “striking”…it’s acceptable legal punishment. Me and my brothers disagree, the open-handed strikes with the palm of the hand and the ridge of the hand and the base of the hand hurt very very much, especially when the grown male adult is in a frenzied rage and jacked up on adrenaline and really laying into you. But, in Bob World, no biggie. “I only hit Geoff once.” Okey dokey. Bring in that bull again. That particular instance of abuse against Geoff was brutal. Geoff was knocked to the floor and hurt badly…and then Geoff was blamed for the whole thing by Bob for “tempting him to anger” and for Bob “losing his temper.”

Geoff was then sent out of our family, separated from his mother and brothers, because of Bob’s lack of self-control and abusiveness. Geoff suffers the punishment, Bob goes on being Pastor Bob and living the high-life (sometimes lit-rally…as Bob enunciates it). In Bob World, life goes on as it should…all is well. In the World for the rest of us, devastation, extreme pain, chaos, insurmountable guilt, fear, confusion, desperation. But, we’re just disgruntled disobedient children who are interfering with the “work of the Lord.” Okey dokey.

Truth is we were “hit” or “struck” or open-hand punched, smacked as hard as you can, etc. too many times to count over the many years. Geoff and I tried to put a number on it, we couldn’t. It was a way of life. We were often forced to hold our hands down to our sides and Bob would tell is he wasn’t going to hit us any more…then WHAM! It was terribly hurtful physically and extremely psychologically terrifying…but not to Bob. Nope, not abuse, not “hitting”, just normal stuff…though the State of California (Romans 13:1) disagrees strongly. But, Bob says it’s not abuse, the Board at Calvary Chapel takes his word for it and life went on…with more abuse to me, Geoff and Paul (and Robert got some too, though he denies it…but others have come forward with damning testimony that Robert / Bobby told them about abuse in the home).

[UPDATE: To be clear to those who aren't familiar with our story, Bob Grenier, in addition to striking us in the face too many times to count, also hit us with objects including custom-made large and thick wooden paddles, swinging full force in rages, leaving bruises and often drawing blood on the backs of legs, lower back and buttocks. I remember many times clothing sticking to the wounds. Bob Grenier also put Geoff in a small coat closet with the door closed (essentially locking him in under threat of a beating if he got out). He also kicked us, grabbed violently, pushed us into walls, pinched our necks aggressively (like Spock from Star Trek), beat Geoff from head-to-toe with the branch of a mulberry tree in a violent rage, and many other violent manifestations that are too numerous to count. It was a way of life. All clear-cut State Defined Felony Child Abuse...not "over-spanking" or responsible "corporal punishment" as some in Bob's camp would frame it. The only reason Bob Grenier did not go to jail for this is because we were too scared to come forward as we were told we would be separated and put into Foster Homes and because the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board didn't report the abuse Bob confessed to.]

There really is no way around Bob’s confession to the Board of Calvary Chapel Visalia. There really is no way I can see that Bob and Calvary Chapel can spin his admission as something other than clear State-defined Child Abuse. So, fine, don’t take my word for it, don’t take Geoff’s word for it, don’t take Paul’s word for it, don’t take my Aunt’s word for it, don’t take neighbor’s words for it, etc. Take Bob’s word for it. He says he did it…once and once only. Never abused before, never abused after. Got it.

After establishing Bob is lying about the abuse and after Chuck telling Geoff he “believes” him/us…and after I shared some very emotional specifics about losing the relationship with my Mom (and my kids losing that sacred relationship also, which really hurts) all because I confronted Bob’s abusiveness privately and told him to stop being abusive to my Mom and my brothers and to repent (basically I stood up to the bully as a young adult)…we all get punished, not Bob…the meeting “mood” turned more peaceful and constructive vs. combative.

No doubt in my mind that Chuck Smith and Dave Rolph feel bad for us. No doubt they “believe” us. I don’t think either man is heartless or pure evil, etc. However, they are men and Chuck has a lot to lose if he handles this situation in the wrong way (“wrong” context being from a legal / business perspective, not necessarily a Spiritual perspective).

Rolph did stand up like a champ in defending us against Bob. He said clearly he believes us and that he hasn’t heard anything good about Bob and that he’s reviewed a lot of testimony that is very very bad and that he spoke to Paul and that Paul alleges Bob Grenier also molested him, in addition to physically abusing him.

I asked Chuck, Chuck’s attorney and Dave Rolph if they considered Child Molestation to be a serious allegation…and each responded that they did take that allegation very seriously.

They asked if I believed it. I told them I wasn’t molested, but that I was physically abused many many times and that I personally witnessed a lot of abuse by Bob toward my brother Geoff and even my Mom to some degree (though it was in the form of him dragging her to the back bedroom, closing and locking the door and the noises, screams and crying that ensued…many times over). Geoff reports witnessing my Mom being “smacked around” and Paul reports he witnessed Bob on top of her choking her with both hands.

I told them that I know this, Bob is lying about the physical abuse and that Bob is lying about some financial things and lying about taking too many pills, etc…all stuff that Paul has alleged in past years, that Bob has denied. Paul has since been corroborated many times over on the financial issues, the manipulation of Board Members and staff, etc and on the pill abuse issue. That is very concerning.

I love my brother Paul and I support him 100%. If someone put a gun to my head and asked me to make a decision between whether Paul was lying or Bob Grenier was lying…I’d go with Bob Grenier is lying, based on his track record and my personal experience with him. The allegation is extremely serious. Bob is with kids as a Pastor and is trusted. Bob is a Police Chaplain and a Sheriff’s Chaplain, but no one seems to care. I guess Bob has to do something very bad again for something to happen. It’s not enough that he’s gotten away with being a self-confessed Drug Dealer and Drug Smuggler and served no time, and had a homosexual encounter with another boy in Boarding School, and commits felony child abuse many times over, commits spousal abuse, steals from the church, bends and breaks the financial rules, takes too many pills and gets “stoned on pills” according to another Calvary Chapel Pastor who witnessed him stoned on Mission’s Trips, ruins a bunch of people’s lives over the many years at CCV…but now, we get to take Bob’s word for it that he didn’t molest his homosexual blood-son Paul Grenier….and Bob continues to collect his well-over $100,000 per year salary and benefits and gets to call everyone else liars and evildoers all while selling Jesus from a Calvary Chapel “Fellowshiped” pulpit…with zero justice and zero accountability. It’s unjust and very wrong. I don’t think this is what God has in mind and I don’t think it’s what Paul the Apostle had in mind when he wrote the Pauline Epistles and addressed Qualifications of a Pastor/Elder and Church Discipline, etc.

It was clear in the meeting that there was very little trust on both sides of the table. Chuck called me a “loose cannon” and said he didn’t trust me, I told him I don’t trust attorneys and preachers (except Sheck, Kelly Clark and a couple other friends :smile: ).

Chuck accused me of being in sin for publishing “lies” on the blog, and “tearing down a work of the Lord” etc. and he and his attorney called it a “refuse collector” that basically was a magnet for every disgruntled Calvary Chapel person and critic out there.

I told Chuck I didn’t know the stuff on the blog to be “lies” but rather corroborated allegations by multiple sources…and that getting the other side of the story was nearly impossible as CC won’t answer questions or return emails, calls, etc. I reminded Chuck that when he finally answered me specifically about the Adultery allegations made by many (several sources) against him, that I finally had the opportunity to ask Chuck point-blank when we first talked and he vehemently denied it. I reminded him that I printed that denial and said it was a settled issue for me.

I also told him that Dave Rolph had confirmed I have good sources and that there’s “a lot of truth to the information” regarding other items on the site. Rolph actually copped to that in the meeting…which was admirable.

I had called Chuck a “Liar” on the blog about the Ayub situation and others. Chuck disagreed. He said he did everything he could in that situation and that Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa takes those issues very seriously and does all it can. I took that article down as I told Chuck I would after the meeting. I will need to rework it to report it differently now that I have new information. At least I will present Chuck’s position as a counter.

So, we both told the other we were in sin. We both started hurling Scripture at each other. I was “printing lies” and “tearing down God’s work” and basically gossiping and slandering and being angry, etc. I asserted that Chuck was lying, covering stuff up and not doing his duty as “pastor” and leader of all these Calvary Chapel pastors, etc.

Chuck seemed to assert that I was in “willful” sin and that he wasn’t…my interpretation from comments.

I asserted that “isn’t it sin to know the right thing to do, have the power to do something about it and then not do it?”

Chuck immediately quoted the verse James 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

He’s a very sharp man, still. He was not the smiley Papa Chuck in the intensity of the negotiations, he was a strong and intelligent adversary (and at the end of the meeting when the tone softened he was more grandfatherly and pastorly).

After Chuck cited the verse, I told him he should do the right thing regardless of me and the blog, etc.

At one point in the meeting I pushed back with Chuck’s attorney that “hey, I’m a sinner! If you are waiting for me to model perfection for you to do the right thing it ain’t gonna happen.” I asked Dave if he was a sinner, I asked Chuck if he was a sinner and the Attorney if she was a sinner. We’re all sinners trying to hash out a difficult and complicated situation. I presented myself as imperfect and a sinner and didn’t believe that I had to be Jesus Christ Himself before they’d do the right thing, thought that’s the Standard that seemed to be in place.

At the end of the meeting (after the emotional part and the softening) Chuck told me he loved me and I told him I loved him. He was seated and I was standing and gave him a bit of a hug. Chuck is not the devil incarnate, he’s not 100% right or 100% wrong. He’s not 100% Saint and 0% Sinner or 0% Saint and 100% Sinner. Like me and the rest of us, he’s 100% Saint and 100% Sinner. He’s a man with good qualities and challenges. He’s good and bad all mixed together, like me, like you.

The situation is not 100% Black or 100% White…it’s shades of Gray. Chuck sincerely doesn’t think he should have to do anything. He doesn’t want responsibility on one hand, but on the other hand, I and many others have pointed out that he is “Pastor” to these CC guys, and he likes the part of being “Pastor Chuck” when it’s fun and nice…he doesn’t like it when it comes to 1 Timothy 5:19-22.

Chuck sincerely believes he shouldn’t be held responsible in any way for Iglesias molesting those four boys (now young men). I told him that our Civil Governing Authority (Romans 13:1) seems to disagree…but we’ll find out.

Since the meeting, I’ve emailed Chuck’s attorney and Dave Rolph my copy of the “Fellowship” Agreement/Application to become a Calvary Chapel Pastor CC_Fellowship_App. I also emailed screen shots and text from the CCOF Website (“Becoming a Calvary Chapel”) http://www.ccofministry.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62&Itemid=75 that articulates the “Fellowship” Process and Application etc. and the licensing name rights etc. and the hoops a prospective “Calvary Chapel” Pastor must jump through to use the Dove, etc.

I also presented them with the Scriptural Argument that Chuck Smith, as Bob Grenier’s Pastor, should heed 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 (qualifications of a pastor/elder) and that he should follow Scripture here: 1 Timothy 5:19-22 and “rebuke” Bob “publicly”…in the form of he and/or Roger Wing of CCOF “Dis-Fellowshiping” Bob Grenier if he remains lying and unrepentant.

If CCOF is purely “independent” and is the one who does the Dove-Yanking, fine. I asked Chuck to use his influence to get Roger to take another look at this matter (I’ve reached out to Roger Wing and CCOF before on the advice of a current “Fellowshiped” CC Pastor friend) and to yank Bob’s Dove now that Chuck “believes” us, as Dave Rolph does.

Something’s got to give. I’m not suffering these many injustices by Bob Grenier, nor should the many many others. People are still, right this moment, at risk. Bob keeps doing the same stuff over and over and over.

Enough is enough.

[UPDATE: Dave Rolph's take differs a little from mine. Make sure to read the other articles above with emails he sent that describe his take to get another perspective on the meeting].

 Posted by at 8:07 am

  234 Responses to ““You can’t handle the Truth!” Another peak behind the Curtain. My “meeting” with Chuck Smith.”

  1. Alex, I have been waiting over 2 years for Chuck to get back to me. I stopped holding my breath long ago… The picture of the wizard of oz really says it all!

  2. Once a CC guru, 2 years? Yikes. I don’t have that kind of patience. I could barely make it to this morning.

    Unfortunately, now begins the long and persistent process of telling the many stories through the SoCal media and Central California media and informing the public about the situation.

    I have a profound disagreement with Chuck and CC that he has zero responsibility or obligation in these matters (and many other matters) and my position is that the CC church-goer at large is being misinformed (some would call it lied to) or given the wrong impresseion etc about what the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, CCOF, Calvary Chapel and “Affiliation” and/or “Fellowship” situation really is.

    Of course, there are many civil attorneys who seem to have a different take on Chuck’s position, and there’s nothing I can do about that. That’ll happen without me.

    I promised Chuck I wouldn’t sue him and I won’t. I have no control over others like the Iglesias victims, and if their suit is righteous and true, they deserve any justice our “Governing Authority” deems appropriate (Romans 13:1).

  3. Thank you for sharing your heart Alex so transparently with all of us… Your da man!

  4. The media coverage and the “refuse collector” (this blog) will inform past and current victims of child abuse and child sexual abuse about their options in suing Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith as our Civil Governing Authority (Romans 13:1) probably views Chuck and Costa Mesa as having Agency and/or Implied Agency.

    I think they probably do, from a business perspective, and I am convinced that from a Scriptural perspective, Chuck Smith is “Pastor” of the CC pastors, they claim it.

  5. Who knows, Chuck ‘might’ be right about the Agency issue, from a business/legal perspective, I don’t know 100% for sure…I’m sure he’ll have good representation to fight it or he’ll settle.

    I don’t see how he can absolve himself spiritually from any responsibility with regards to a guy like Bob Grenier who promotes that Chuck Smith is his “Pastor” so vigorously.

  6. You and your family are laying in a bloody heap after CC Doves have gone gangsta on you for years. Then the Calvary elite see this, cover you with a sheet, cover their ears and pretend they never saw or heard you. Years later they deny being aware of your situation and call you a loose cannon. Amazing. Warm smile, cold heart.
    I wonder if Roger Wing cashes a paycheck and how CCOF gets operating revenue? Sheck or Super 8 Motel can probably answer that.

  7. That folks…is the rest of the story. And you think we are crazy? That is what drives young and old people away from the organized organization of the church. This is the side of religion that is dark and unattractive. I don’t care how many scriptures are twisted to justify staying out of Bob Grenier’s business, now this business is all of ours to unite around and seek the complete dismissal of Bob Grenier from CCV, and a complete banishment from any involvement in public affairs in Tulare County. Bob Grenier is trash and he needs to be dealt with once and for all!

  8. super 8 motel…ROTFL!!!

  9. IF all of the victims of CC Visalia would sue CC Visalia, Chuck Smith, CCOF and any other affiliated organizations, the legal defense bills would drown them! The sheer numbers would do the job – every lawsuit has to be defended separately by expensive lawyers. Or a class action suit would create great pressure because of the fear of multi million dollar judgements.

  10. Isn’t is such a cc cop out to call anyone “disgruntled” who dares to stands up and tells the truth about the abusive mafia like system… If I am “disgruntled” then they are “gruntled”

    “gruntled,” just as it sounds, is an old word that means “grumbling.”

  11. It was very gracious of you to make your comments about Chuck’s good side, but a bit too gracious. Of course the man is nice and grandfatherly, that’s what allows him to wield so much power. Charm is used as a weapon of sorts.

    You have essentially been screwed by the highest level of CC. They DGAF about what is right in this situation, all they care about is taking care of themselves. Chuck Smith may be within his legal rights to avoid Agency, but he is a massive coward. The same is true of Dave Rolph, Roger Wing, and all of these guys. Judas was operating lawfully (with respect to civil laws) when he sold Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. Chuck and the gang are no better. Jesus said that when when we ignore ‘one of these little ones’ (ie, the abused, the poor, the ‘little guy’), we are ignoring him and that he does not know us. Chuck Smith and CC execs are selling victims of abuse past and future down the river in order to protect CCCM and their own egos. It may be understandable, but it’s deplorable. Especially since these same men would extol “doing the right thing, no matter what the consequences.” They are hypocrites, plain and simple. And as you said a few times, they are full of $h*t.

    Also, I think it is highly insulting that he would call your blog a “refuse collector.”

  12. I for one will not attend a church in Visalia you have my support this all has crushed my spirit somewhat. Thanks CS for not dealing with Bob Grenier….we cannot let the abuse continue people need to make a stand….

  13. And did you notice what was meant by “refuse” in his statement? He’s saying that anyone disaffected with CC enough to complain about it is a piece of dung. He is very clearly grinding the faces of anyone who has been hurt by his organization. Delta Bravo.

  14. Gandy, you are sooo right

  15. It’s time to hit the streets people. Main street needs us standing around with flyers detailing the crimes we acuse him of. We can’t picket CCV because of it’s location and county/road zoning, but we can hit the highly populated areas and bring the secular world into this campaign.

    Do any of you have the nerve to get off your buttsvand do something?

  16. Alex, has most of everyone’s emails and /or phone numbers… If its legal then everyone should participate :)

  17. I remember back in the 80′s when many from the “gay community” showed up in drag at CCCM after one of Chuck’s gay bashing sermons…

    Guess what, the gay bashing ended at CCCM from fear and discomfort!

  18. A simple 1 page word document. Titled.

    Pastor Molests his son and the City of Visalia is covering it up.

    Let’s meet and organize. Is there any who can do more then sit by and watch Alex do all the work.

  19. How stubborn can one man be just deal with the issues so it all can end. Visalia is being held hostage….

  20. Anyone who characterizes this blog as a ‘refuse collector for disgruntled former CCers has completely missed the point of its existence. I’m offended by that because it is a downright insult. I know many people who have shared their painful stories on here, and they deserve some respect and common decency. Anyone with half a heart and the ability to discern the core issues being documented here can see that these people are not half-cocked looneys who have a beef with Calvary Chapel. Until about two years ago, most of them have keep their blasted mouths shut. To keep the lid on problems that have been festering for three decades has been a severe mercy for those who have been perpetrating these spiritual crimes. No more mercy. No more pussy footing around. A few lights have been turned on in the past few months but now we need to open the curtains and let the full sunshine flood in. Bob Grenier, you are a beast and it is our determination to emasculate you, so you better be prepared for all ‘heaven’ to let loose on you, you fool.

  21. The phrase “refuse collector” is wicked. If these people would have listened and acted years ago there would never have been a need for these blogs, which exist out of desperation.

  22. They meaning posters/bloggers from CCV are hard working citizens that just want to live in harmony within the community… We shouldn’t have to worry which pastor he has manipulated to believe his lies…Thank-you lord for opening my eyes early because if he hadn’t then I would be completely crushed. My spirit is being crushed by what I see and hear and its all wrong….Alex I am sooo sorry that you have had to endure all that has happened by BG.. I also feel sad for all the others abused as well…

  23. Xenia…yes it is wicked. Zero transparency. Zero obedience to clear scriptural teaching, which has a built-in plan to avoid escalating a crisis. Deal with it privately. Then deal with it in a little wider circle, then a little wider, and wider. Stubborness and outright spiritual arrogance has lead to this. When you allow unchecked behavior in senior leaders, this is what can happen and is happening. God sets up accountability structures for our own good. It is meant for all believers regardless of rank.

  24. Now we find ourselves on the “what do we now river?”

  25. I’m tired of just blogging about this and watching others do the same. All the angst and flowery worded posts are warn out. Alex lives in Idaho or he would probably be leading a physical grass roots street effort.

    I’m not telling anyone what to do but my heart tells me that it is time to put action to our words!

  26. If Chuck gives the victims’ testimonies to bob, may God have mercy on him!

  27. NA, I hear ya I think most are tired of hearing the same old story..

  28. Alex,

    We knew this would happen from past experience.

    Nothing new.

    One question, was Gaylord Tohill in the meeting?

    Just curious.

  29. A street effort is so 20th century. The best way to do something is to refine your web effort.

  30. Alex, I really like the Wizard I needed a little humor this morning :)

  31. E511, no. The only people in the meeting were the people I mentioned.

  32. Chuck was instructed NOT to give the testimonies to Bob Grenier…as I informed him that people are legitimately scared of Bob.

    If Chuck does that, that would probably be actionable. Chuck is too smart to make that kind of mistake and take that kind of risk.

  33. Bob Grenier’s problems are not confined to his little church on Avenue 264. The spiritual abuses have been well documented but those are no concern of Tulare County residents who live outside his domain. The outsiders will be greatly interested to know of how Bob Grenier has manipulated church finanacial resources, intended to benefit a non-profit organization, for his own pleasure. They will find it quite interesting to hear how he has routinely broken the civil law. They will become quite incensed when they hear enough of the story of child abuse in his home. I hope the residents of Tulare County run him out of town as fast as possible. Then sue him for every penny he has only to return it all to a reputable organization that has a demonstrated record of financial transparency, and history of doing genuine good for others.

    Start the stories in the local papers, then regional magazines, and eventually national and international publications and media sources. CCCM allowed the birth of CCV, has donated money to help it grow, and has undergirded the minisrty of Bob Grenier for over 30 years. To this date, they have not gone public to repudiate the claims of Bob Grenier’s severe abuses, nor have they publically called out Grenier for his evil behavior. They arrogantly ‘straddle the fence’, refusing to pass judgement. If they cannot see this as evil, they have no business instructing anyone from the Bible from here on out. Their stock value has taken a plunge. Who can you trust if you cannot trust the founders to right the ship.

  34. bob can’t stop what he is doing and we can all be sure, the other shoe has not dropped yet and there is more that will come out…Your sin will find you out! Those who have seen the books need to report it to the IRS and can do so anonymously with complete protection. Labor laws have been broken and the State of California can help former employees who have been discriminated against and harassed. The CPA who does the CCV books would be very interested in the financial improprieties and would not want to lose his license either for overlooking a lack of documentation and receipts for expenses. Insurance and disability fraud can also be looked into and reported to the proper agencies for investigation.

  35. WA,

    IMO, BG behavior also breeds the same evil in others that do the same within the community just sayin…..Some are still supporting that man….

  36. Gandy said, “Also, I think it is highly insulting that he would call your blog a “refuse collector.””

    I didn’t like that term at all. I remember pushing back on that one that I felt there were a lot of hurt people out there and while not everyone 100% may have a legit beef, not 100% were lying or wrong either.

    While I am personally involved with my own beefs and the beefs of those in Visalia, I do feel for the many others of you out there who have been chewed up. I don’t think it is a good thing to call it, it is very ungracious and unmerciful.

  37. WA,

    IMO, BG behavior also breeds the same evil in others that do the same within the community ….Some are still supporting that man….

  38. Your Mom, an Insurance Fraud investigation has been launched. There are other actions in the pipeline.

    The heat is going way up.

  39. I agree with you Gandy…the web publications have had the greatest affect. A half a million reads in less than two years. Some will want to turn their talk into concrete actions. This will require some deep thought due to the fact that most local authorities in Visalia will currently side with Grenier and consider public statements as mere rants. If some are convinced this is the path they want to follow, then I suggest they schedule private meetings at first with the Mayor, Police Chief, other City Council Members to alert them to the vast amount of information available on the internet. Then tell them you would like a public hearing at the next City Council meeting to lay out the claims that disqualify Bob Grenier from acting as a Police Chaplain. Then go meet with all the local media sources and share your story or the story. I am not advocating that tract at the moment but some may want to anyhow. If you decide to do this, realize that others behind the scenes work is not a sell out. The shear weight of the information becoming more visible to an extermely large international audience will potentially precipitate action faster than face to face meetings will. You must follow your own callings.

  40. X said, “The phrase “refuse collector” is wicked. If these people would have listened and acted years ago there would never have been a need for these blogs, which exist out of desperation.”

    Yes. Very true.

    The only reason I got a meeting was due to sheer persistence and that I am equipped to be a total bull-dog and jerk in a confrontational situation (they can thank my upbringing and intense physical abuse and the hours and hours of lecturing, etc for that).

    Unfortunately, there really isn’t much that is spiritual about all of this. I’m not particularly Saintly, but I care and I won’t go away. CC isn’t particularly Saintly either.

    CC does close off all the avenues, IMO.

    I appreciate the meeting, but I have no illusions that it was somehow disconnected from my sheer persistence and bull-dogedness.

  41. Hey, can someone hand me a shovel? Oh, forget it, this “stuff” is too deep. I think we’re gonna need a bulldozer and the county health department.

    Seriously? Chuck Smith bold-faced lied about affiliation/fellowship? Show me ONE CC pastor who doesn’t think he applied for affiliation? Who doesn’t think Chuck can yank his dove?

  42. Chuck accused me of being in sin for publishing “lies” on the blog, and “tearing down a work of the Lord” etc. and he and his attorney called it a “refuse collector” that basically was a magnet for every disgruntled Calvary Chapel person and critic out there.

    This does say it all and confirms what I have suspected for years, but wasn’t “sure”. It shows Chuck’s heart behind the logo smile. We talked alot about homosexuals yesterday and I do think if Bob was practicing that, his dove would be pulled as was mentioned before. Alex mentioned Bob and taking pills. That could explains alot. Taking drugs, legal or not, can make someone act completely different “under the influence” than when they are not. And I have seen drugs really fuel anger and turn people into monsters while under their influence. Then the next morning when sober, they act like a different person, and unless someone witnesses how they were under the influence, they would never believe the behavior possible.

  43. Alex…
    “Your Mom, an Insurance Fraud investigation has been launched. There are other actions in the pipeline.

    The heat is going way up.”

    Thanks for breeching this. There has been concerns about financial impropriety for more than twenty years. There are several former bookkeepers that used to handle the financial records who can verify if anything has been done improperly. There are some living former Elder Board members who can be asked to verify as well. I have been advocating that the IRS be notified for a few years now. Looks like Bob Grenier better have some good documentation to substantiate his claims because what he is about to see may drag him off to a padded cell. Who is the CCV CPA? What’s his or hers name?

  44. “Refuse collector”?

    Chuck Smith is right. Think about it. This blog opened the door for many to post about the “refuse” that was done to them in their CC’s. Many more read about other’s experiences here and know they are not alone. The “refuse” that happened to them is a systemic issue within CC.

  45. Mr. Chuck Smith,

    My CC pastor told me I was innocent and my CC leader accuser had an habitual sin in the area of concern. The CC leader was protected and my family paid the price. If you want to call me disgruntled, that’s your prerogative; however, you are missing the point. No accountability for CC pastor/leaders causes harm to many on so many levels.

    You have been made aware of this, so to do nothing now, in order to protect your wealth, or to “protect the work of the Lord, at CCCM” is sin. The “work of the Lord” is not protected by promoting an environment of freedom to sin without any accountability. You don’t “protect” some by hurting others.

  46. Alex…I withheld saying this during to imposed journey around the dark side of the moon. Chuck Smith never called you in the years this has become public. He must have become aware of it all at least a year ago. I do not believe he or anyone else trully affiliated with CCCM would have ever called you if you did not take the initiative to call him directly. That is why I was very suspicious of his willingness to meet with you. He clearly had an agenda, and It did not include settling the Bob Greneir problem.

  47. EWO said, “How stubborn can one man be just deal with the issues so it all can end”

    There is only one person on this planet more stubborn than Bob Grenier…and you’re on his blog.

  48. Alex,

    Good one LOL, I am pretty stubborn also so my husband says…:)

  49. Lew Griswold of the Fresno Bee is willing to do another article.

    He needs people to go “on the record”…so it would be helpful if some of the people connected to the Bob situation allowed Lew to used their testimonies and/or agreed to answer questions from Lew “on the record”.

    Contact me, I can make that happen.

  50. For any of you others, I have Reporters in Southern California (In the OC) who want to cover this stuff also, but they need people to go “on the record”. If you are willing, contact me and I’ll put you in touch with the reporters.

  51. It’s been my experience and the experience of many others I personally know that the leaders of CC in the area we are in (Olympia) have very similar behaviors. There really is no desire or no display of trying to reconcile anyone together if leadership is in the picture as one of the parties needing to reconcile. It is always stonewalling and you are always the one in sin and they won’t accept any responsibility of sin or even their part of the sinfulness in it. They either don’t care or something else means more to them than to take any steps towards doing what is right before God and man.

    Why should that be any surprise? If you read books on abusive behavior or controlling behavior and narcissism that is exactly how those personalities are. They get one justification in their mind as to why it is OK to behavior in such a cruel and unloving way towards you and nothing will make them see differently or even be able to see what the bible says love is. They are allowed to be god-like in their interpretation, meaning by that, if they inflict punishment or even banishment it is for your good and in their right to treat you that way and it is “loving like God is loving.” Of course, if you turn the table and treat them the same way, then you are in grave sin and should repent immediately and make things right. The more you try to resolve things, the worse they treat you and then they throw you away. You are “dung” as someone put it…treated just like you were the dung that is stuck to the bottom of their shoe.

    They tell you they don’t or aren’t treating you like a leper and that is true, they would probably be kind to a leper, but you won’t find any fellowship or even a desire for it from any of them towards you again. You simply have no value to them, you are treated like they just don’t care. I have not witnessed any humility in any of it. Rather a superior attitude, like they get everything and you just don’t. How you “obey them” has everything to do with measuring whether or not you even trust God, as if they are God. God has never asked us to put our trust in man in that way, in fact the opposite is true. It is a sad thing indeed and I don’t see any change that will ever come there unless there is no one left to go there. However, there are always the vulnerable and those who are able to be molded into man’s image that will worship there (unfortunately, the allegiances there in some cases can bear resemblance to worshipping certain leaders in spite of their wrong twisted interpretations). Shunning is the treatment of method there, whether done officially or unofficially. The fact we are the temple of God and we the believers are the actual church doesn’t seem to be fully realized there. I sat in a sermon where one of the associate pastors said you can give your tithe wherever you want, but if it isn’t to the church (the building) God won’t honor it. I do have to give them, the credit of not putting an overemphasis on pressuring anyone to tithe though, in fact they are fairly low key on that at this location. There is however an abnormally high and bizarre level of control and even micro-controlling that goes on there in way too many ways that is unhealthy and damaging to those who attend.

    I hope and pray someday the leaders will see the damage that is truly done to the people because of this. I hope they truly repent and humble themselves for the sake of everyone. Too many are hurt and damaged for very wrong reasons.

  52. Alex, are you still on for that radio interview?

    Can the local level be skipped and just go national? This is a juicy story with all the elements that morning national TV news likes on slow news days. Why not call Matt Lauer? Or some news person who can put the story in a can and pull it out when they need an interesting story to fill a time slot.

    The fraud investigation might interest local news.

    You could show the “smoking gun” on national news and let the viewers decide.

    I’d like to send out a poll to every existing CC pastor and ask them if they are under the impression that they are affiliated with CC, if they think Chuck Smith is their pastor, and if they think there is any accountability associated with that relationship?

    Btw, those of you in Leesburg, Virginia. Your new affiliation with Calvary Chapel was supposed to be so you would have accountability. You might want to consider making it public that you don’t have any accountability or affiliation, as per Chuck’s clear statements. People in the church should not be led falsely into believing something that Chuck Smith, himself, denies.

  53. Your Mom, good points, and we’re on it.

    Covering it up at this point would probably get Bob and others in more trouble than the initial wrongdoing.

  54. “Alex, are you still on for that radio interview?”

    I have to reconnect with him. It was put on hold after the meeting and then 2 week thing came up. I’ll email him this weekend. Thanks for the reminder.

  55. Okay, I don’t know how you will proceed with this blog, Alex, but I’d like to make a request early. I’d like to see the best of the best posts from people over and over again describing the systemic issues with Bob Grenier and the systemic issues in CC as a reference.

    I know how helpful it was to read RickRoss’ old list when I went hunting for info. I think it would be very helpful for people who tune in here to be able to get that snapshot view as clearly as they can get it in a few minutes of reading.

    We direct people here several times a week. New people with fresh CC issues all the time get connected with us and it’s very helpful to have a blog to point them to that makes the case that it’s systemic and not just personal. This site, with it’s collection of consistently similar stories, has helped many.

  56. Alex – Does Bob G have a drug problem? You said he used to sell and smuggle drugs? He was a hippie years ago? If so, he may have a problem with them and shouldn’t be taking any prescription pills. He may be a legal drug addict.

  57. I think Chuck Smith needs a refresher course on how Jesus handled wrongs committed by church leaders. I think he also needs a refresher course on the real definitions of slander and gossip.

    No wonder the CC pastors use those terms wrong so consistently, they are taught by Chuck tapes and books.

  58. I agree Grateful, I think I will open another website that just lays out the Bob issues with no interaction and then links this site for discussion. That way people don’t have to sift through our 500 posts to get to the meat of the issues.

  59. Okay, call me dense, but why did Chuck ask you, Alex, to “submit to his authority”?

    We know he doesn’t have authority over you.
    He claims he has no authority over CC pastors.
    So what is he asking for?

    Is it just a tactic that works for him? He’s speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

  60. Not Alone, that is brilliant!

    Thank you!

  61. A large child molestation headline on a flyer leading to a site laying it out clearly, plastered all over soccer mom cars every Saturday morning at Sports Park might get something done. A bunch of pissed off soccer moms is no small force to be dealt with.

    Passing them out on Main Street Friday & Saturday evenings with Titles like “Does your Pastor make $100k a year?”

    Car windows at the mall. Banners around town. Litter the streets with information until every last person who can read knows what Bob Grenier has done!

    I agree that the net is were the main battle will be fought, but people need to know the issue exists before they will look for it here. Word of mouth is the key, the more tongues wagging, the better.

  62. Jesus formed a bunch of separate corporations called local churches they do his bidding. Well at least they fly his dove.

  63. Sue said, “Alex – Does Bob G have a drug problem? You said he used to sell and smuggle drugs? He was a hippie years ago? If so, he may have a problem with them and shouldn’t be taking any prescription pills. He may be a legal drug addict.”

    That’s my guess and Paul believes this to be the case Sue.

    I first saw Xanax in our home way back in the late 1980′s / early 1990′s. My Mom was in a deep funk after Bob removed Geoff from our home. The doctor diagnosed her with something they called “Mitro-valve prolapse”…and then gave her a pile of Xanax.

    I didn’t understand it as a teenager, but as an adult, it clearly looked like Mom and Bob wouldn’t accept a Depression/Anxiety diagnosis…so the doc had to come up with something to put her on pills.

    Another CC Pastor says Bob was “stoned on pills” in the mid 1980′s on Mission’s Trips over seas.

    Paul (10 years younger than me) says when I was out of the home, that he often did pills with Bob and my Mom. Paul says there was a ton of Xanax, Ativan, Ambien and other pills in the home all the time…and that when our Grandma Ruth was in the home, they would take her pain pills and other medication as well. He gave me the names, but I don’t remember them.

    I did research Benzoanzapine addiction and withdrawals, and one of the side effect is violence, edginess.

  64. Grateful asked, “Okay, call me dense, but why did Chuck ask you, Alex, to “submit to his authority”?”

    It was weird. I was arguing that Chuck was Bob’s pastor, but he wasn’t “my” pastor…but the issue of authority came up.

    I think it was in the context of, “hey you’re coming to me for help…you need to submit to my authority then and let me deal with it the way I want”…kind of thing. Not verbatim on that one, but the essence.

    The essence, again, was that I needed to play ball and not be a “loose cannon” and trust God.

    That was a big one that the Attorney kept saying, “you need to trust God and let God deal with it”….she said that a lot.

    I asked if Chuck sat back and did nothing and just ‘trusted God’ when Chuck decided to start the Calvary Chapel Movement, or if Chuck actually got off his rear and did stuff.

  65. I also told her, basically, that I do trust God and that God has provided 500,000 hits on my website (now 600,000+) and that God has provided a lot of good sources, info, media contacts, coverage, attorney friends etc. and a meeting with Chuck Smith.

    I also brought up, not necessarily in that segment, Matthew 23, Paul the Apostle rebuking the Judaizers and Martin Luther in terms of not being Mr. Rogers about everything…yet those guys surely “trusted the Lord”…heck Jesus is the Lord.

  66. For myself I see it as very sad when a person can claim to be a minister of God and actually deceive themselves into thinking they are – and also gain the backing of an entire network of fellow pastors in supporting their delusions. This certainly represents a near worst case scenario for everyone involved.

    Based on what you have said I think Chuck Smith is facing this horrific scenario.

    1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
    2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
    3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.
    4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
    5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
    6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

  67. Alex,

    Loved the article. It was very entertaining. I laughed out loud at times. I mentioned that the problem was systemic, in another post under Bob Coy. By the mid 80′s half of the CC’s had gone heretical. Raul’s, Chuck’s, and the likes, words, not mine. They made the decision to have leadership meetings which resulted in the publishing of the Philosophy and Distinctives books. The excerpts for the Philosophy book were taken from meetings at West Covina. I attended those meetings. They had already disaffilliated some CC’s and were establishing “guidelines” (their words) by which to measure those ministries towards CC’s. Chuck, avoiding as much conflict as possible, ( I think I’ll nic name him, duck and cover Chuck.) Said, and I quote, “It doesn’t mean that we will break fellowship with them, we just won’t be affiliated to them.) Can anyone say L-I-A-R.

    Chuck, may I offer you some advice? Repeat after me, “I am sorry, I can’t recall saying that.” It may come in real handy in the future. Don’t worry, your team of lawyers will prep you on what to say. Someone has to, the Holy Spirit has stop giving you insight along time ago.

    A couple of other points. Let’s affectionately call it the TBN defense. Anyone not in agreement with us will be called a sinner, in sin, for calling us out. Funny, Chuck and the gang didn’t think they were sinners when TBN was refuting them.

    Based upon what we have all learned from our pastor Chuck, I would like to take this opportunity to openly rebuke Paul and John the apostles. If they had used Chuck’s wisdom in scripture then Paul would have sent Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus packing when they delivered the letter from Corinth. Furthermore, He should have told those in the house of Chloe to keep their mouths shut. Spreading all the rumors and causing division. John took the words of the congregation as truth about Diotrphes. Foolish John. If Chuck was around he could have taught them how to handle the situation properly. (Chuck, duck and cover and wonder woman).

    We should be rebuking Amos who was told to shut his mouth by Chuck’s Grrreeeaaaaat Grandfather the priest Amaziah. Amos gave insight that he was minding his own business when God called him. Foolish Amos. Didn’t he know that it is wiser to listen to man than to God? If Chuck was their he could have straightened that situation out as well. (duck and cover Chuck and wonder woman).

    But, may I offer, that just maybe Chuck is wrong. In Isa. 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Isaiah 3:12 (KJV). And their actions are such as to Eze. 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. 4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
    Ezek 34:1-4 (KJV)

    Hummm…… it sounds like God wants His people to know who false teachers are and avoid them. his book is full of examples of what to watch out for. Something tells me I’d be preaching to the choir if I went down that road. But don’t you find it interesting that the Eze. passage says they kill the sheep that are fed? Analogously, the ones who are better prepared they get rid of…. hmmmm. It appears to me that God isn’t to pleased by that. But then again, that’s just me. I am foolish enough to think that God wrote His word to be heeded for its wisdom, guidance and relational insights.

    May I introduce this thought which comes from our heavenly Father. Jer 23:11-14 (KJV) 11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

    Take note that they lie, strenghten the hands of the evildoers that none of them turns from his wickedness. Now this is just my silly way of looking at things but doesn’t that sound an awful lot like what we are seeing…….. I’m just saying. Did you also notice that God begins to distance himself from the leadership but still calls those being mistreated, His people…… hmmmmm.

    Final points (this is beginning to take on the length of one of my studies… lol). Scripturally speaking, Alex, the meeting you had with Chuck wasn’t exactly biblical. To no fault of your own (unless Bob G. was there). It was Chuck’s responsibility to make sure he was there. Unless of course, dare I suggest, that the above Jeremiah passage comes into play…… I’m just thinking out loud, pay no attention to me.

    When I and a large portion of the leadership left CC Meadow Mesa (due to the fact Mike Welte wanted me to change my teaching, which would have distorted God’s word) the worship leader was one who had left as well. He was asked to lead worship at CC Lone Mountain. Out of respect he met with Jimmy Morales, who told him that he would have to support the CC pastor no matter the situation. No affiliation?

    Someday, maybe we can sit down and chat. Until then, contend for the faith which has once been delivered to the saints.

  68. Alex said, “… the Attorney kept saying, “you need to trust God and let God deal with it”….she said that a lot.”

    Why is the attorney giving you spiritual advice, Alex? She should have given it to Chuck before he lied about his being ignorant of affiliation in CC. The action he took is clearly sin. He LIED. He lost his integrity. He should have spoken the truth and trusted God with the outcome.

    A statement like that is for someone who can’t do anything, or what they can do is sin. That’s when we let it go and trust God with it. But Jesus clearly didn’t just let it go when it came to the money changers and the Pharisees. He was harsh with them. He stood up to them and did something. Mess’in with God’s sheep is unadvisable!

  69. Re: Michael @ #67

    Help me out here … I’m a little slow. What are you trying to say?

  70. “Why is the attorney giving you spiritual advice, Alex?”

    She wrote a book and has a radio show on K-Wave.

    She seemed to think I was in big-time sin for blogging and being angry, etc. She didn’t like my means…however, she didn’t seem to have a problem with what I thought clearly was lying going on by Chuck and Dave.

  71. There are many many adults addicted to prescription pills or who use and sometimes abuse them. If you want to take drugs, the way to do it is by legally doing it, and they are not hard to get. I had a friend who used to get valium any time she wanted it by going to see her Dr. The trouble happening in SoCal is that kids are getting the message that prescription drug taking is safe, so instead of using “street” drugs, they are taking their parents and grandparents pills and getting into addiction problems,etc. Especially troubling here is oxycotin, both for kids and the adults who are using it legally. I personally know two ex-hippies addicted to this drug who get it from their Drs. and it does afffect their moods and change their personalities. They seem like street adddicts but they can’t get in trouble. And they are not about to give it up. Also plentiful is xanax – much of it around and highly popular with the kids and very addictive.

  72. Michael – all Christians are facing that scenario. Even all of us in the refuse container. We are all God’s children.

  73. Re Alex @ #70

    Okay, just so I have this straight …

    Leaders in CC can abuse you, and us, but none of us are allowed to be angry about the sin? We are just supposed to be quiet when the sin continues against others, as well?

    But it’s okay for Chuck to boldface lie?

    Just trying to wrap my brain around this …

  74. Re: Alex said, “She seemed to think I was in big-time sin for blogging and being angry, etc. She didn’t like my means…”

    If they don’t like the means, then by all means provide a way for people to hold pastors/leaders in sin accountable.

    Actually, better yet, it should be pointed out that this is “warning the church” as per Matthew 18, so she must not like “God’s means.”

  75. Michael B – The Pope also is a minister of God and has the backing of a network of archbishops, bishops, priests, nuns, etc. Does this mean is 100% without flaws?

  76. Alex: “Then walks in Chuck’s hot female attorney, Janet Carter.”

    Was the Janet Carter you saw the same person that appears at janetcarter.org?

    I’ve been following your story as a “lurker” for quite a time. I am amazed that it hasn’t reached the Mainstream Media yet, especially given Kosnoff’s lawsuit. “Denomination” or not, CC is now a very large group in the United States.

  77. It really bugs me that a church leader needs a lawyer in a meeting about spiritual issues. I understand it intellectually but it is troubling. Back when I was a pathetic stupid ignorant new “Christian” I use to think we were all one big family and that God would unite us. I have repented of such nonsense many moons ago. Now that I have become spiritually mature I am cynical, dont trust anyone, always on my guard, vengeful, willfully ignorant of others feelings, fake, able to put on an act, lie convincingly, and always no mater what defend the apologetic.

    I find that sad

    Alex thanks for the guts to stick it out for others I hope it all works out.

  78. ignominious, yep, that’s her. She gave me a copy of the book on that site, “Control freak”.

  79. Grateful,

    They don’t want to provide a means. That would relinquish authoritative rule. That can’t happen, or their world will come crashing in on them.

  80. brian, good to see you.

  81. Brian,

    High fives

  82. Brian – lol. I hear you.

  83. It is unfortunate how the healing process takes us through such a range of emotions. The Lord will heal.

  84. Yes RFTB. The Lord does heal. I can now laugh at what used to scare me, like worrying that demons could come and possess me, even though I was God’s child, or that I was unspiritual because I was uncomfortable lifting my arms in worship during singing when we were told to do so, or that I secretly inside myself questioned the “authorities” and what they were saying when I was told to “submit”, etc. The thing I still find sad is that i ever got involved with that kind of mentality in the first place.

  85. This whole thing just saddens me tremendously. I love Pastor Chuck and Pastor Dave, and you too Alex. I guess if it’s time to turn up the heat again, then so be it. Lord, have mercy.

  86. Agreeing with Captain Kevin here.
    Alex, I am praying for you as you continue to seek God’s will in this.

  87. brian @#78,
    sad…yes, and all too understandable.

  88. I love pastor Jesus, the other guys are just men!

  89. Here’s a blurb taken from what Wonder Woman says about her book: (Context found here: http://www.controlfreakfree.com/ )

    “Have you yet to figure out, that whether you’re controlling or controlled, or both; that you’re actually of little to no use to the Kingdom of God?”

    That’s RIGHT, which is precisely why we are no longer going to be controlled by pastors in sin who tell us to be quiet, when we have a mandate from Mt. 18 to warn the church (local and universal.)

  90. Once a CC Guru says:
    September 24, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    “I love pastor Jesus, the other guys are just men!”

    Amen.

  91. Guru at #89,
    I totally get what you’re saying, and God has shown me more times than I can count not to put men above Him. Having said that, are we not commanded to love our brothers in Christ?

  92. In fact, he has reminded me again, just recently, by showing me that someone I’ve looked up to as a great preacher, is also a money-grubbing, arrogant jerk.

  93. We all agree that bob is evil to the core, a narcassist (sp?) and basically a sociopath. As Alex has mentioned before, the main weapons that bob uses to control people are fear and itimidation and it has worked perfectly for him for 30+ years.

    WA #20
    A few lights have been turned on in the past few months but now we need to open the curtains and let the full sunshine flood in.

    You are absolutely right in the above statement. I need to share something that has been on my heart for quite some time. I want to pre-requisite by stating that I am not making a judgement in any way, but understand people’s reasoning. This is difficult for me, as I am not like others on this blog that are able to articulate and express themselves so well and I must confess I feel a bit inadaquete. But, here it goes!

    Two years ago after Topix began Alex took a huge step and told us the horrifying and brutal abuse he and his brothers had endured for most of their lives. Many of us told him if we had only known we would have done anything to protect them. And I am quite sure that meant we would have faced bob personally in order to do that. NOW we do know about the abuse. The struggle in my heart is that it seems so contradictory that we would have done ANYTHING to help them back then, yet now due to fear and itimidation we are hiding behind anonymous names and fight with only words. So I am asking each of us to search within our hearts and come out from behind the anonymous names, state our real names and testimonies on this blog. Sending a loud message to bob that we are united and standing WITH Alex. I believe it would hit him hard, as he does not expect it, which brings me to this;

    Not Alone # 25
    I’m not telling anyone what to do but my heart tells me that it is time to put action to our words!

    I agree, it IS time to put ACTION to our words!

    Not Alone #18
    Let’s meet and organize. Is there any who can do more then sit by and watch Alex do all the work.

    In this way it connects us, we become united and much stronger. My gosh, look what it did in Tunisia, Eygypt and Libyia!!! The Internet is a powerful tool we need to use it! Organize, meet and coordinate events etc. in order to help Alex. Give our testimonies to reporters like Lou Griswald, radio and television. Instead of one soldier we become an army. The forces and people in Visalia would have to take notice! Yes, we are Christians and we have followed scripture for two years and have only been stonewalled. Even people like me that no longer live in the area can still join with you and I am willing to do all that I can.

    And lastly, to those whose true identity I know, please KNOW that I do understand your reasons for wanting to be anonymous due to the fear of bob’s reaction. All I am asking is that you search your hearts and pray about this, as it has to be a personal choice. I will always respect your choice and I pray that you will understand and not be upset with me.

  94. From the CCOF website:

    “It is necessary that every applicant fill out an Application. When you are approved as a Calvary Chapel, CCOF will grant you the right to use the name Calvary Chapel and the Dove logo. Both of these are trademarked entities of Calvary Chapel and should not be used until approval is given, in writing, by CCOF. The Application allows us the basis to both grant and protect these trademarks.”

    Somebody is lying. Either CCOF or the stuff I was fed in the meeting…

  95. let me distill this whole situation done to its esssence..at least from a legal perspective. this also should give some insight into Chuck’s actions and inactions vis-a-vis Alex’s meeting:

    1. Alex and others are asking him intervene in the CCV situation and disaffiliate or Bob Grenier.
    2. If Chuck intervenes and does as much, it is another dagger in the side of CCCM concerning the issue of agency and liability for the actions of other CC’s.
    3. Ergo, Chuck will not and legally cannot be seen to take action in the CCV situation even though he has done s n the past.
    4. at some point he must stop intervenng regardless of theegregiousnessof the situation if he is to defend the gates to to the Costa Mesa city.
    5. as solice to some, he will cause CCOF to be dissolved.

    as to the issue of ownershipofthe name “Calvary Chapel” and the trademark “descendign dove,” do a basic search at the U.S. Patent and Trademark website and you will haveyour answer.

    Max: you can stayat my hotel anytime, but not for eight dollars. I’ll leave the light on for you.

    Now let the arrow fly and commence my beating.

  96. We can love our brothers, but that doesn’t mean we don’t call a lie a lie.

    We can love others, but that means we step in and rebuke when they continue in sin, unrepentant, after Mt. 18 attempts.

    I’m not sure what you were meaning to convey by your comment, Captain Kevin, so disregard if my response is not on the same wavelength.

  97. “Super 8 Motel” good synopsis of the legal side of the situation. Thanks for your input.

    I like your new moniker :smile:

    I’m guessing we gentiles read “Motel” as “Mow-tel” like mow your yard and the tel…as opposed to “Mottle” the Tailor.

  98. yeah. phoenetics are everything to you gentiles.

    re: janet – she is there not as a mediator but to represent chuck and the chrch. also it is doubtful she has been paid or has takenthe time to go behind the curtain and get all the info. your presenting such info i’m sure is constructive in their decisionmakingon these issues.

  99. If I were a rich man… yaddi dadidadida….

  100. Re: Janelle @ # 94

    You are articulate.

    I hear your reasons for going public with names. I’ve heard Alex’s in the past. You both might be right.

    Just consider this, though … People fighting in the Arab Spring kept their anonymity so the bad guys wouldn’t get the upper hand in finding ways to undercut them.

    I just pray that God will give each person real wisdom, think this through. Go public if it serves the overall purpose well. Don’t go public if it won’t, and if it will only give the enemy more ammo to fight back.

    If a bunch of public names really will coerce Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia, California, into doing right, then go for it. If not, then plan your moves carefully to reach the goal. Obviously, people stepping up who have first hand experience with Bob Grenier, to name their names and give their testimonies is absolutely crucial right now. This needs to go public, more than it has already.

  101. Alex,

    Your language does not serve your purposes. Please hear me with care. Language is also a means of warfare. You are waging a war. Your language is often perjorative, harsh and dare I say it, intentionally abusive. Tone it wiser. Go after your foes with greater care and less punch. Lampooning and caricaturing is delightful fun and satisfying to the soul but it can mitigate against your purpose of justice.

    But hey I understand wanting to punch bullies in the mouth. Let’s not meet abuse with abuse or injustice with mere ridicule. You have argumentation and justice and truth on your side. Don’t silence the force of moral authority by the use of moral indignation.

    And never give up.

  102. Motel Mottle is right, CC Costa Mesa owns the Calvary Chapel name outright:

    http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4007:ha9ha2.2.9

  103. Alan, I thought that was a way toned down version and diplomatic, but I value your take, so I’ll have to consider that.

  104. I don’t like straight-jackets, it makes me feel fake and phony, that’s why I struggle with expressing this stuff in vanilla.

  105. Gandy, wow. That’s irrefutable proof that CCCM does own the rights to the name and the dove and that CCOF acts in some sort of agency capacity to gather and approve the use of the name and likeness.

  106. Alex,

    Alan is right, and the problem is due to the passive-aggressive character of the CC elite. Most adult bullies, in fact, employ passive-aggressive behavior. So when you use strong language or show your anger, they simply turn it back around on you: “Bro, settle down, you should not be this angry? Why on earth are you so full of vitriol? You are obviously not walking in the Holy Spirit.” It’s all a charade, pure bullshit. But alas, Alan is right, they will use this against you successfully and make you look bad. You’re far less persuasive because they can in fact paint you as a loose cannon. If you intend to continue pursuing this, I suggest you step it up and make this thing incredibly classy and yet still deal in logic, facts, and evidence.

  107. Alex,

    The fact that you go straight at them with your beef shows that you are not passive-aggressive. You are trying to deal with everything above-the-table. It shows that you have nothing to hide and that you are not acting out of pure self-interest. Isn’t it sick that this gets turned against you?

    Sorry, bro…keep fighting–but only so long as it doesn’t keep you from being a great dad and husband to your family.

  108. Re: Gandy @#103

    So if I use the CC name and logo I must first be affiliated with them to do so?

    I still can’t wrap my brain around Chuck Smith boldface lying, knowing that this would be public. We all are sinners, slip, mess-up, have a lapse in judgment … but Chuck Smith’s clear lie is calculated.

    Keep in mind folks, we don’t need to sin in order to trust God with our assets, or as it seems Chuck put it, “to protect the Lord’s work.” This is NOTHING like Rahab lying to hide God’s men from being killed. This is a lie, the kind that would perjure one in court, that loses one’s integrity with fellow Christians.

    Quick restoration of men in ministry who’ve fallen leads to things like this. Chuck painted himself into this corner.

  109. Ya Alex, class this up a bit. ;)

  110. Anyone know someone going by the name “Martin Fanning” who would be a lawyer connected to Bob Coy? Got a weird email that seems like a back-handed threat:

    “Martin Fanning lgleglmf42@gmail.com to me
    show details 1:58 PM (2 hours ago)
    Hi Alex: We may need to take your depo regarding
    associations/communications with Bob Coy for legal purposes.

    If you don’t mind, which of these 2 addresses for you is current/correct?

    XXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXX

    XXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXX

    Thanks.

    Martin

    CORE TERMS:
    Florida Torts, Defamation, invasion of privacy, false statements,
    false impression, “substantial and respectable minority”, public
    disclosure of private facts, appropriation of name or likeness, right
    to privacy, infliction of emotional distress, pain and suffering,
    economic loss, punitive damages.”

    Motel, you recognize this character?

  111. Alex: parry to your thrust

    no. it is merely alincense sitation, which is a long way from agency. nothing more than a license of intellectual property. check.

  112. Alex, maybe the second website put up by Not Alone could be facts, testimonials without inciting emotion. Something a person just looking for 2 minutes could get the basic issue concerning Bob Grenier, and for another 2 minutes invested they could get the basics on systemic issues in CC. Then factual testimonials backing up both issues could follow for another few minutes of reading.

    Then this blog, or elsewhere people could interact on the subjects, as needed or is useful?

    Just a thot …

  113. Alan, Gandy, I’m sure you’re right, I’ll have to find a way to do it better.

  114. And understand I don’t mean it as a significant criticism of you as a person. It’s the unfortunate reality of dealing with people like this. With your snark there’s a fair bit of Martin Luther in you, you know that?

  115. Motel, no Agency between CCCM and CCOF?

    You’ve got one Corporation, CCOF, that appears to be advertising, promoting and then accepting applications for the use of Trademarked name and logo and entering into some sort of agreement with another Corporation (the CC applicant) on behalf of CCCM…no?

    “Agency law is concerned with any “principal”-”agent” relationship; a relationship in which one person has legal authority to act for another. Such relationships arise from explicit appointment, or by implication.”

  116. Motel, if I have someone acting on my behalf that can in turn yank a dove and affect another’s employment and income…no chance of Agency or Implied Agency?

  117. Because, if there’s zero chance, then why doesn’t Chuck have Roger yank Bob’s dove?

  118. Grateful @#97,
    We are in agreement. I was only intending to convey my disappointment in two men that I love and encourage Alex in whatever he feels the next steps should be.

  119. Gotcha, Captain!

    Good to have you on board, Matee.

  120. Re: #116-118: Agency would seem to be implied as well by the fact that CCOF would not be able to independently supervene and yank CCCM’s dove. We are getting complex at this point, but I think it’s correct. You can’t yank the symbol from the affiliate that owns the trademark.

  121. Grateful, “Alex, maybe the second website put up by Not Alone could be facts, testimonials without inciting emotion. Something a person just looking for 2 minutes could get the basic issue concerning Bob Grenier, and for another 2 minutes invested they could get the basics on systemic issues in CC. Then factual testimonials backing up both issues could follow for another few minutes of reading.”

    I was thinking that it would just be a one page overview of the Pastor Bob Grenier situation. Listing the accusations, situations and the breach of biblical qualifications. Then point it here for details. I am open to any input that any of you may have, just know that I am hoping to keep it very basic, cut and dry, not my normal Tabloid writing style, just factual.

  122. RE: Alex #s 116-118:

    Isn’t agency implied as well by the fact that CCOF can pull any dove other than that of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa? That fact shows that CCCM is clearly the man behind the curtain, legally speaking.

  123. Not Alone, I think it’s a great idea.

  124. First off, thanks for telling the story in such great detail. It has to help those who have been harmed to know that at the very least their stories were told in the central bastion of CC power. As you know, I’ve been at this for a long time and here’s what I know to be true.

    #1 – The name “Calvary Chapel” was in use by churches prior to 1965 and remains a name anyone can use without Chuck’s permission. I have threatened to do it many times because it would force them to enforce their false claims of trademark. And I agree with Chuck that the DBA is the only issue that might arise if someone uses the name and that’s an issue with business licensing, not with CC. Trouble is, there’s plenty of places where CC or CCoF have claimed they hold the trademark so for Smith to deny it is either completely dishonest or completely incompetent. It could be both. With that being said, there’s a list of churches on the CC website which let’s people know which ones are “really” CCs.

    #2 – The trademark to the dove is not owned by CC. I have known this for many years since I was originally threatened when I used it on my CC FUAQ website starting in 1996. I did the research then and know that they were making a false claim to the trademark. I don’t have the name of the trademark holder handy (it is in my files to be sure) but he was not a CC pastor and he did agree to allow CC to use the dove symbol. I do not know if that agreement was in writing or verbal but with the number of years CC has been using it, it would be impossible for the actual trademark holder to try and enforce his trademark at this point if he tried to change his mind.

    #3 – Whether or not the legal definition of agency applies – I don’t have the legal knowledge to guess (Jeff might be the one to wade in on that, but he probably would not do so).

    #4 – Calvary Chapel has tried all sorts of words in the past to describe the relationship between the churches and Chuck Smith / CCCM. Movement doesn’t fit since movements span denominations and CC has specific distinctives which don’t mark it as a movement across denominations, but a specific denomination of their own. The bottom line is CC isn’t a denomination because Chuck doesn’t like the idea that he has his own denomination. Chuck not liking something doesn’t make it not true – except in CC fantasy land.

    #5 – Chuck has pulled the plug on churches and removed them from CC. John Wimber’s widow (Carol Wimber) put out a book “John Wimber: The Way It Was” which describes what happened in detail. If someone wants I can dig up the quotes, but they are pretty clear. Unless Smith got the affiliated pastors from the past to sign a different affiliation agreement later, it seems to me that the previous agreement stands.

    #6 – At the very least CS controls the list of who is and who is not a part of CC. It’s the list of churches on the website. There’s no way, as long as that list is on their website, to avoid the conclusion that these are “approved” by CCCM and CS and that’s exactly what anyone who looks out the site sees and believes to be true.

  125. apparent authority n. since under the law of agency the employer (the principal) is liable for the acts of his employee (agent), if a person who is not an agent appears to an outsider (a customer) to have been given authority by the principal then the principal is stuck for the acts of anyone he allows to appear to have authority. This “apparent authority” can be given by providing Joe Slobovia (who has no authority to contract) with materials, stationery, forms, a truck with a company logo, or letting him work out of the company office, so that a reasonable person would think Joe had authority to act for the company. Then the contract or the price quote given by Joe and accepted by third party is binding on the company. Apparent authority may also arise when Joe works for the company, has no authority to contract, but appears to have been given that authority. Beware of the salesman who exceeds his authority or the hanger-on who claims to work for the boss.

  126. Listen, everyone keep talking about the trademark as if CC has been telling the truth about owning it. Last time I looked, there was no CC Santa Ana (the actual location of CCCM). You could open a CCSA across the street, put up the dove and all they could ever have done is threaten you. They don’t own the trademark unless they can prove it in court and I bet a lot on the fact that they couldn’t when I started using it in 1996. Of course I could always claim fair use and be protected since my site existed for the purpose of criticism, but I know they have no power in the matter.

    All they have is a list on the website of who is a CC.

  127. gandy

    whether there is such communion of interest between cccm and ccof, including board members is one issue. i am merely stating that a licensor (cccm) is not liable for the actions of a licensee (ccof or any cc chuch…pick ‘em) due to the use of the licensed intellectual roperty, alone.

    while it cannot be doubted that chuck has, from time to time, dipped his widdle pinkie in the pool, it is another thing to dive in, particularly when the allegation of agency has life in litigation as well as with my friend spudhead bringing it to him directly. so BS’er (boise stater) , i would recoomend that pc take a 100 % hands off approach here and in all future matters, which excludes pulling ccv’s dove and name.

  128. doug. wrong again. and just to get the facts right, you better check with te secretary of state in ca as to who owns and runs the corp. titleed “calvary chapel santa ana.” 2 steps ahead of you.

    trademarks DO NOT require proof in court to gain ownership, my friend.

  129. From calvarychapelvisalia.com:

    “In July of 1978, Pastor Bob Grenier, and his wife Gayle moved to Visalia, and Calvary Chapel Visalia was started.

    We had talked and prayed with Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and together with his blessing, Gayle and I moved from Eugene Oregon, where I had been pastoring the Shiloh Fellowship, and Calvary Chapel of Visalia held it’s first services, at 1:30 on Sunday afternoons, in a community room of a local store called Gottshalks. ”

    Sounds like Bob is “Chuck Smith Tested, Chuck Smith Approved” to me. Bob says Chuck is his “pastor”…he has Chuck’s “blessing” and bears the same name and likeness “Calvary Chapel” and the Dove, etc.

    Apparent Agency? Would the average person assume that Calvary Chapel Visalia is a safe place for their kids, etc due to the connection to Chuck Smith?

  130. Well, I’m inclined to accept Motel’s take on it.

  131. I need to see if Kelly Clark will get on here and take you on Motel :smile:

  132. Using the Apparent Authority context and a metaphor, aren’t “individual Calvary Chapel Pastors” really selling the CC Brand to the Public?

    They sell Chuck’s books (Calvary Chapel Distribution), they promote Chuck Smith’s website, they promote Chuck Smith’s Word For Today Radio Show and Chuck Smith’s Radio Station (or that’s Jeff Smith’s) K-Wave, they promote Chuck’s Conferences, they invite Chuck and pay him honorariums, they sell Chuck’s Prophecy Videos/Dvd’s etc and promote his Prophecy Conferences and increase and build the Calvary Chapel Chuck Smith Brand…do they not?

  133. Jeff, Not. CC can’t defend their claim to the trademark to CC because it existed in other churches prior to 1965. They can claim the trademark all they want, but until it is litigated successfully it’s just a claim. No different than a granted patent which is later discovered to have prior paper and gets overturned. Even if they have claimed it to the state of California as long as their were CCs prior to 1965, they don’t have a universal right to the name – unless they bought it from those who held it prior to 1965…

    As to the CCSA possibliity, I’ve only looked deeply enough to see that there’s no CCSA listed on the list of church web site, but you are right, someone could have already claimed it which would prevent a DBA. Maybe CCCM has claimed it? I don’t know or care. It’s not up to CC to determine if there can be a CCSA, it’s up to the whether or not there’s a DBA in the state of Cal.

    If there is a CCSA, I’d be curious who holds it and whether it was done as a pre-emptive move by CCCM. I’f be particularly interested in when it was taken since I started threatening to use it in 1996. As I said, if I had followed through then, the state would have told me if the name was already taken if it was and if it wasn’t then I could have used it.

  134. Isn’t it sick that this gets turned against you? You know, I think there is alot to what Gandy said here #108.
    I’m sorry that there was no outcome for you Alex, but silence. I think it is ironic that often this is the way things turn out . You speak out and try to bring to light something wrong, and try to do something about it as in this case with BG, and it gets turned around that you are in the wrong, the control freak, or whatever criticism they have of you. You are told to leave it in the hands of the Lord which means what really? Alot of people go to their grave never getting their due comeuppance, and things don’t change.
    Just another thought is that this fight may not be worth it. My experience with Narcissist personalities is that they don’t change or ever look at themselves, ever! And even if Pastor Chuck believes you, BG is his friend, and he has legal problems. I think motel gave good wise insight on that. I am sad to hear what Chuck said about the refuse collector. That is heartbreaking really. If it was his grandson speaking out, maybe things would be different. And because this is a blog, it’s easy to dismiss and not think of anyone here as real people.
    There is the old saying: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. This situation with BG may fall into the “accept the things I cannot change” category. I pray God grants you the wisdom to know the difference and pray Jesus’s love will guide. May God give you wisdom. Take care of yourself and yours most importantly. I pray God’s love wins out in Chucks, in BG’s and in all our hearts. May love win – If nothing comes of this, hopefully BG wil retire soon if nothing else.

  135. Sue, the outcome isn’t finished yet.

    We’ll see what happens.

    Bob’s not going to get away with all of this.

  136. I am late on this conversation and dont have the time now to read the comments (after reading all of your post Alex)

    I have to say I am not surprised.
    This to me was all about discovery on their end.
    Thats why I suggested an attorney.
    But Chuck has alot more money than you at $500.00 an hour for one.

    To me from reading what you wrote, he has no compassion for any of us on here, we who are pouring our hearts out with pain…all he cares about is protecting his empire.

    “:Printing lies and “tearing God’s work”-who is he to say that you are lying? Who is he to defend the enemy,unless he is also on the enemies camp?

    I am so mad, I can’t contain myself. So I guess I am in sin too.
    Maybe I should come forward since my CC Pastor says Chuck is his Pastor too..all the time.
    So he is no ones Pastor when there are problems?
    OK. I get it.
    He was more concerned to find out what you know so he can better play the game.
    There is nothing that you have said that leads me to believe that he cares one bit about what happened to you, your family, or anyone else.
    In fact, he is doing a good job of finding legal loopholes to avoid any responsibility from whatever happens at any Calvary Chapel. In removing himself legally he is free from responsibility. Financially, or emotionally. Forget what he may or may not believe. It doesn’t matter. It is all about image. If he admits any responsibilty, he WOULD HAVE to do something. So it seems he is off the hook.

    Why give you a time then not make good on it?
    If he needed more time he should have given you more time.
    This just proves he is a liar. He can’t even make good on an agreement.
    And to say we are all sinners…a copout.

    I am really sorry Alex.
    Alex, can we all send Chuck Smith a letter?
    Where can we send it?
    I for one would like him to read my posts and ask me if I am a liar too, and if I am “tearing God’s work”. In my opinion, he is calling everyone here a liar, and demonic.
    After all some of us have suffered, that is the greatest mistake he has made.

    Maybe Mr Smith can come on here and dialogue with us, so you can better know us before you judge us.

  137. What control does CS have concretely over someone who own CC Visalia to get them to remove the name? If there’s a DBA already, he can’t remove the name, particularly if his current claim is true (and I believe it is).

    What can Chuck do? He can pull the local church from the CC website, and in the case of a big gun like Bob, he can stop any future events like pastor’s conferences at CCCV. That’s enough to alienate Bob from the movement,.

  138. Doug, or Chuck could man up and publicly rebuke Bob Grenier from the pulpit and tell the truth.

    He could say, “I met with Bob’s kids, I reviewed a pile of stuff, I think Bob’s lying and in sin and needs to step down.”

    That would do something.

  139. The United States Patent and Trademark Office TESS database search turns up the following information: …

    Word Mark: CALVARY CHAPEL

    Goods and Services: IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: evangelistic and ministerial services. FIRST USE: 19611212. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19611212

    Mark Drawing Code: (1) TYPED DRAWING

    Serial Number: 75696114

    Filing Date: May 3, 1999

    Current Filing Basis: 1A

    Original Filing Basis: 1A

    Published for Opposition: August 28, 2001

    Registration Number: 2508503

    Registration Date November 20, 2001

    Owner (REGISTRANT): CALVARY CHAPEL OF COSTA MESA RELIGIOUS NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3800 S. Fairview Avenue Santa Ana CALIFORNIA 92704

    Attorney of Record: L S VAN LANDINGHAM III

    Prior Registrations: 2340251

    Type of Mark: SERVICE MARK

    Register: PRINCIPAL

    Affidavit Text: SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20110805.

    Renewal: 1ST RENEWAL 20110805

    Live/Dead Indicator: LIVE

  140. We’re looking at all these man kingdom legal angles, when all Chuck has to do is:

    1 Timothy 5:19-22

    Says it right up there…simply. Pastor Chuck, publicly rebuke your spiritual son, who claims you’re his pappy and pastor.

  141. doug – go to the state website and order the domestc statement if you desirecto know. sorry. just went through trademark and tradename issues where i work with an atty specializing. cc has it but if a user of the name refuses a cease and desist, then cccm would file litigation to restrain and for monetary damages, but not to perfect their right.

    alex – leave kelly alone and get a hebe lawyer . lol

  142. Chuck got to use Alex to try and understand what “dog will hunt” in the future when he is deposed and is faced with the same evidence against his position. He did it with his atty present which was valuable for her for the same reason. He could make his claims and be faced with the contrary evidence in an environment which had no legal consequences. Alex handed him the gift of “no surprises” and a chance to take another shot at developing a better spin for when it “really” matters. No offense intended Alex, but that’s my view.

  143. Motel, LOL :smile:

    They want too much money :lol:

  144. Jeff, The claimed first use is 1961 on the document you present. Not a lawyer on this side obviously, but if there was use by other churches prior to 1961, that would seem to me to be problematic to the claim of first use in 1961. It is my understanding that there were churches with that name prior to CCCM using it.

    At the very least, you are demonstrating that Chuck’s claims that he doesn’t think CC owns the trademark are completely specious. Seems like I’d be smart to not try and challenge the trademark (since it would help Smith’s current claims) and CCCM would be smart to have not renewed it just last month!

  145. Chuck sure seemed to agree with Gilliland regarding not owning the trademark :smile:

    Doug, you and Chuck agree on something! :lol:

    Clearly, Costa Mesa is on that public record.

  146. Well, running off to spend time with the fam and watch the Spuds (Boise State Broncos) toy with Tulsa. Should be a blow-out.

    See you all later tonight. Motel, go easy on Gilliland :smile:

  147. doug. you file an app with patent office. if aleady claimed, the app rejected. if obviously cnfusingly similar to another mark//name, then also rejected. if passes, then patent office issues noice through federal register and, if no objections, then awarded. if objection, then patent office makes determination.

    so the fact a name was in prior se without having it approved by patent office means nothing. first in line, first in time. if you were right, no one could be sure of their ownership. western law favors certainty in commerce, except if obaaized.

  148. Alex,

    I read the portion about Bob Coy’s attorney wanting some info from you. I hope the details in my posting under that experience doesn’t cause you problems. I stand by the story and provided detail for merit. My apologies if it what has caused a problem.

  149. Jeff, has CC enforced the CC trademark either through a legal demand letter or action of some sort?

    I haven’t looked at this issue in a long time and did a quick search. It looks like in recent cases the prior use argument has been weakened, but it is not invalidated. From what I read:

    Trademark rights can also be lost through improper licensing or assignment. Where the use of a trademark is licensed (for example, to a franchisee) without adequate quality control or supervision by the trademark owner, that trademark will be canceled.
  150. Seems like CC can’t have it both ways. If they grant the trademark, then they have to exercise quality control/oversight over the name. If they don’t use the trademark then a key part of their distinctive identity is lost.

  151. Now having read all the posts…

    About the Dove “logo”:

    A Pastor who left a Calvary Chapel opened up his own church and used the logo on his leaderhead. I asked him if his church was affiliated with CC even though it did not have “calvary chapel” in it’s name. He said “No Way”. I think he was just trying to attract people who were already familiar with Calvary logo, using it make people think it was affiliated with Calvary Chapel, especially since he came from CC, and had a “following”. So how was he able to use that exact logo if he was not a Calvary Chapel or affiliated with it?

    I also find it interesting that Alex had to make a promise that he would not sue Chuck. Is that all he (Chuck) cares about? What about doing the right thing in Alex’s situation?

    I also, as a woman take offense at the attorneys comments to Alex.
    So typical.

  152. Cindy #51

    Right on! Mt 18 is all about the heart of the gospel: reconciliation and conflict resolution in the name of love. CC is my experience and by testimony of this blog is run by fear, shunning, shame, humiliation.

    Thank God, He loves me. You! Alex. and all the other heroes here!

  153. Re: Not Alone @ #22

    I agree. Concise and all Bob. That makes sense. I’m just always jumping ahead when there’s work to be done on this specific pastor first.

    If I get past my road blocks, I might start a blog on the consistency in CC systemic issues with Grenier as a poster boy.

  154. Hannah, I’ve been using the dove for 15 years, first on my original Calvary Chapel Frequently Unanswered Questions page and in more recent years on my CC Wiki site. I was threatened years ago with legal action and I took the time to search out the copyright holder. It wasn’t CC, it was someone who was sympathetic and allowed them to use his symbol. Whether they have “bought him out” in the meanwhile is unknown to me, but I don’t believe that to be the case.

    As to Chuck using Alex’s mom as a pawn with the hope of getting Alex to shut up, I find that to be grossly offensive (even as a man). I have no idea what might have killed that possibility, but if it was Alex’s mom who refused to be played then she probably handed Alex the only gift she could given her situation.

    Think about the chain… Chuck wants Alex to shut up. Alex wants Chuck to pull the plug on Bob. Chuck sees a third way, by pressuring Bob to put pressure on Alex’s mom. To me that’s authority abuse on so many levels.

    Either it’s right or it’s wrong for Alex to have his mom in his life. And from what I can tell, Alex wasn’t cut off from her by any actions on his side, and he has done everything he can possibly do to have a relationship for his own sake and that of his children. He would like his kids to know his mom, who he clearly loves. But he should ask himself if he really wants his kids to know a person in that situation – even if it is his mom. But while it’s easy for me to feel objective, I do feel sympathy. The loss of his mom in his life is part of counting the cost from confronting Bob’s actions. It’s the difficult part of discipleship.

  155. Doug #155
    “As to Chuck using Alex’s mom as a pawn with the hope of getting Alex to shut up, I find that to be grossly offensive (even as a man). ”

    Doug I am so glad that you brought this point up. I recall in one of Alex’s posts regarding the meeting he stated that when Chuck brought up his mom, which is a very fragile part of his heart. ( paraphrased) he softened. My first thought was Chuck knew it was Alex’s soft spot and knew exactly what he was doing. It was not out of caring, but was a very calculated move on his part. Unfortunately, I also believe that Chuck had a complete and thought out agenda for that meeting and it was not because he loved Alex. Chuck stated that he knew Alex and about the Blog. He could have contacted Alex long ago if he was truly concerned, but didn’t. The only reason they had a meeting is that someone gave Alex chuck’s personal number and it was Alex who contacted Chuck. It is also my belief that this meeting was set up as a fact finding mission in order to benefit and give Chuck some foresight. It was all about Chuck the minute they stepped into that door. His true colors were shown by many things that were said, such as this was a refuse collector. How cold hearted, definitely not a pappa Chuck. I was sickened by the statements he made, but when it came to Alex’s mom that was a hit below the belt and he knew exactly what he was doing. Pappa Chuck needs to take a long hard look of himself in the mirror and see who he has become. He should be sickened by it. Of course he won’t, as IMO the spiritual part of his spirit has been choked out by pride and greed and it’s all business now.

    My last post was driven by my emotions and I agree with whoever posted that we all need to be very careful, rational and not quit. That we need to take the time to think things through and be strongly prepared in what is to come to the point that they won’t have any idea until it hits them in the face!

    Grateful~ You were right regarding the civil uprisings in Tunisia, Eygypt and Libyia regarding not naming names, as there were thousands who took part. The names of everyone who played a part of organizing and bringing it all to life were known. They were celebrated, as I remember it on the news, but I may be wrong. Thank you for thinking that I am articulate, that was very kind and appreciated.

  156. Alex~

    I was so happy to hear that you were either going or watching the Boise State game, Go Bulldogs! Speaking of Bulldogs, you are one heck of one! :~)

  157. Doug-”I was threatened years ago with legal action ”

    By whom?

  158. Janelle – its the Boise State Broncos and the Fresno State Bulldogs. But that’s a pretty good guess for a woman

  159. So Motel-Getting ready for Rosh Hashana?

  160. RFTB said, “Alex,

    I read the portion about Bob Coy’s attorney wanting some info from you. I hope the details in my posting under that experience doesn’t cause you problems. I stand by the story and provided detail for merit. My apologies if it what has caused a problem.”

    I have no idea if it’s Bob Coy’s attorney. Doubtful. Probably some chump trying to play games. I doubt a legit Florida Attorney would contact me in that manner and with a gmail account.

    If it is Coy’s attorney…extremely doubtful…Bob’s a public figure and the ACLU would be happy to help me with a free speech issue.

  161. Thanks Janelle. LOL. Boise State Broncos, but I still have a fondness for the Fresno State Bulldogs.

    Both are much better than those Aztecs from San Diego State :smile: (hint, hint, that’s Motel’s team ;-) )

  162. Super Eight~

    LOL! This really shows my age, I lived in Visalia so of course was a Bulldog fan so hence the slip up! Yup, I am a woman who LOVES football! :~}

  163. No. I couldn’t afford good seats at schule and did not contribute to the rabbi’s new cadillac fund

  164. Alex #162

    Both are much better than those Aztecs from San Diego State (hint, hint, that’s Motel’s team!

    Motel~ I like you, but have to say I had a gut feeling there was something a bit wrong with you and now I know! LOL!

  165. Motel – Ha..good one.
    I think the seats are still less than the 10% tithe the goyum give to their church :) Have you asked the rabbi why they don’t enforce the tithe? After all it is in their books……

  166. Hannah, I have a question for you.

    why is it that every messianic chuch has onlyvone or two jews and two hundred lus gentile wannabe’s?

  167. I have often wondered that myself.
    My opinon..”Jew envy”

  168. Janelle, I really don’t think Chuck is using my Mom as a pawn in this matter…unless they close the door to the mediation they promised…so the jury is still out on that one.

  169. plus i don’t get why gentiles want to be jewish. they can never be the product of 6,000 years of inbreeding…enough to make an Appalachian family look normal. is it any wonder freud was jewish.

  170. Gentile wannabe=Jew Envy….right?
    So you said it first!

  171. Well, they have the right Sabbath…Saturday. They say we changed the Sabbath which we didn’t. It was always Saturday. We just celebrate the Lord’s day.
    They call him Yeshua…never Jesus.
    Just a couple that come to mind.

  172. Motel-Don’t want to divert from the topic so I will call it a night…

  173. I was raised in beverly hills, so i can understand why they always call him yeshua. jesus was the name of the family’s valet and butler.

  174. Motel, if that lawyering gig doesn’t work out for you, I’ll be your agent (not affiliated of course) and we’ll put you on tour. Hilarious :lol:

  175. so much for ” we are one in Christ.”

  176. If sdsu had to lose, at least USC is getting beat also. go chargers.

    OUT

  177. “so much for ” we are one in Christ.”

    Always a Group that claims they are the “truly” saved underneath the umbrella of Christianity…and they are “one in Christ” with you…as long as you agree with them nearly 100%…in some cases. Otherwise, you are not “in Christ” therefore they aren’t one with you.

  178. Michigan is a tough draw. And, yes, Go Chargers! We need to lay the wood to KC after Tom Brady killed us last week. Goodnight Motel.

  179. Alex: had to reply to your 175.

    i always wanted to be sheck since his father was one of my favorite comedians.

  180. Sheck, you would’ve done well had you put your efforts there. You’re a talented guy. Appreciate you brother.

  181. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz…one abusive CC pastor, two abusive CC pastors, three abusive CC pastors.

    night all

  182. Ha! You’re killing me!

    The “sheep” counting abusive CC pastors…that is funny on so many levels. Twisted too. :lol:

  183. Transparency and honesty Mr. Smith. It is as simple as that. CC has never had so much light spotlighted on the darkest corners of its existence. If you always deal honestly, then there is nothing necessary to hide.

    Years ago, I worked in a church and witnessed an unsavory political power play among the senior church leaders. That caused a certain amount of disillusionment at the time for a fairly young new believer. But God helped me to understand it and used that circumstance to help me see that Jesus was the only truly perfect man. I had placed too much hope in the pastor’s life to be a guide for me. So I was nudged closer to clinging on the Lord for everything. Mr. Smith, I think you have become an idol to too many in your church fellowship. Better wisely think of a way to fade in importance in their eyes, and develop practical ways for them to fully rely on God for their every need.

  184. Super 8 Motel says:
    September 24, 2011 at 9:54 pm

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzz…one abusive CC pastor, two abusive CC pastors, three abusive CC pastors.

    night all
    *****************
    Motel that was classic!

  185. Wide Awake said, “Mr. Smith, I think you have become an idol to too many in your church fellowship. Better wisely think of a way to fade in importance in their eyes, and develop practical ways for them to fully rely on God for their every need.”

    Well put, Wide Awake.

  186. Alex…Boise is undeniably a great team. I am hoping Notre Dame builds back to a point that you and I can go to a Bowl game together and watch them battle it out.

    Motel…all that inbreeding has not hurt too much…the entertainment business is thriving…

  187. WA. it would be great to see a team with the deep tradition of a Notre Dame get back into the top tier. If it ever happens and BSU is in a bowl with them, you’re on :smile:

  188. Not Alone, if there’s something I can do to help, contact me at: tzmt103@yahoo.com

  189. Alex, Smith’s responses on the CC trademark reminds me of one of my kids who always answers my questions in a technically true, but not truthful manner. Here’s what I picture:

    Alex to Smith “You own the trademark CC name”
    Smith “No I don’t own it”.

    Truth – Smith doesn’t personally own the trademark, CCCM does.

  190. We call that “Plucking and Strumming” in our home.

    When one particular family member is told to not strum the guitar so we can hear what someone else is saying, and said person continues to play, said person is then reprimanded for disobedience. Said person responds with, “I wasn’t strumming, I was plucking.”

    Jesus is all about the heart of a matter, the truth, the love. Being technically accurate is deceptive and selfish. Where’s the love?

  191. The “Feel the Love” tour is coming to the east coast in a week or so featuring Chuck Smith himself. With this blog and Alex’s sneak peak behind the curtain, it feels more like a “Rally the Troops” before I go to court campaign tour. After the “Feel the Love” tour it will be followed up with the “Murder the Flesh” tour with Ryan Ries and the Whosoevers. I went on the website for the “thewhosoevers.com” and on the home page there is a caption that reads:

    WARNING
    THIS MOVEMENT IS
    A THREAT
    TO FORMALIZED RELIGION

    Curious, does anyone know what movement “thewhosovers” are referring to? Seems like there are a lot of movements going on. The whole movement thing is starting to stink…

  192. “zzzzzzzzzzzzzz…one abusive CC pastor, two abusive CC pastors, three abusive CC pastors.”

    Ok, that’s funny right there, I don’t care who you are. Git ‘r done!

  193. “Seems like there are a lot of movements going on. The whole movement thing is starting to stink…”

    If I have one more cup of coffee, I’m pretty sure I’ll be having a movement of my own. Maybe I can get it trademarked.

  194. The United States Patent and Trademark Office TESS database search turns up the following information: …

    Word Mark: CCOF CALVARY CHAPEL OUTREACH FELLOWSHIP

    Goods and Services: IC 045. US 100 101. G & S: Christian evangelistic and ministerial services in the nature of a ministry program among affiliated churches in different areas, that offers fellowship, bible study, prayer meetings, worship services, inspirational music, spiritual activities and events, that provides books, pamphlets, sermons, sound recordings and video recordings to affiliated fellowships of churches, that encourages accountability among affiliated fellowships of churches, and that administers the application process for fellowship with other affiliated churches. FIRST USE: 20050600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050600
    Mark Drawing Code: (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS

    Design Search Code:
    01.07.02 – Globes with meridians and parallels only
    03.15.16 – Bats (animals)
    03.15.19 – Birds or bats in flight or with outspread wings
    03.15.24 – Stylized birds and bats
    26.01.07 – Circles with a decorative border, including scalloped, ruffled and zig-zag edges
    26.01.18 – Circles, three or more concentric; Concentric circles, three or more; Three or more concentric circles
    26.01.21 – Circles that are totally or partially shaded.
    26.05.15 – Four or more triangles; Triangles – four or more
    26.05.21 – Triangles that are completely or partially shaded

    Serial Number: 76659930

    Filing Date: May 10, 2006

    Current Filing: Basis 1A

    Original Filing: Basis 1A

    Published for Opposition: January 2, 2007

    Registration Number: 3219317

    Registration Date: March 20, 2007

    Owner (REGISTRANT): CALVARY CHAPEL OF COSTA MESA RELIGIOUS NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3800 S. Fairview Avenue Santa Ana CALIFORNIA 92704

    Attorney of Record: L. S. VAN LANDINGHAM, III

    Prior Registrations: 2258599;2508503

    Disclaimer: NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE “CHAPEL” and “OUTREACH FELLOWSHIPS” APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN

    Description of Mark: The mark consists of a circular border with four points emitting from border with the words CALVARY CHAPEL OUTREACH FELLOWSHIPS set inside the circular border with a design of a globe set in the middle of the circular border with a dove and the letters CCOF set inside the globe.

    Type of Mark: SERVICE MARK

    Register: PRINCIPAL

    Live/Dead Indicator: LIVE

  195. I think the time has come to view the CC dove as we would view a warning sticker like a skull and crossbones on a bottle of poison.

  196. “Seriously? Chuck Smith bold-faced lied about affiliation/fellowship? Show me ONE CC pastor who doesn’t think he applied for affiliation? Who doesn’t think Chuck can yank his dove?”

    This is a fact. There was, as recently as six years ago, an application to “become a Calvary chapel officially”.

    So allow me to add this to the “refuse collector”.

  197. Captain…
    “If I have one more cup of coffee, I’m pretty sure I’ll be having a movement of my own. Maybe I can get it trademarked.”

    It all depends on its sustainability…

  198. Awake, good point. Only time will tell.

  199. I can’t even begin to describe my anger at Chuck Smith and his lack of action. I never attended CCV, and my CC experience, which pretty much destroyed my faith for years, pales in comparison to my brothers and sisters on this blog. While I’ve never personally met any of you, I’ve come to love and care deeply for you despite some of our theological disagreements.
    Alex my heart is breaking for you and the others who yet again have been victimized by CC. To have the courage to stand up for what’s right and to try and do so in a biblical way, only to be disregarded and ignored, shows me that Chuck Smith doesn’t really care about the people who have been devastated by Bob Grenier or any other pastor. His own words in calliing this blog a “refuse collector” says it all – we are “refuse” to Chuck Smith, not wounded souls.
    It must be nice for Chuck Smith to think he’s not responsible for holding Bob Grenier or any other abusive CC pastor accountable. I think Jesus would disagree.

  200. Hear ye! Hear ye!

    Riddle me this…

    There once was a woman who was a whore

    She claimed to be the wife of a glorious King

    In time she came to conceive and gave birth to a daughter

    This daughter then gave birth to many daughters

    Who is this whore? Who is her daughter? Who are the many daighters?

    So, riddle me this….

  201. Samson, I don’t know who the “whore” is, but I do know who the liar is about felony child abuse and much other bad stuff and I know who the two Preachers are who say they “believe” us, yet haven’t done anything about it yet and Scripture, according to Chuck Smith himself, asserts that is sin:

    James 4:17

  202. Well, just got word back from some reporters.

    Chuck Smith can explain to Orange County in his own back yard how he continues to endorse a guy he “believes” is a Felony Child Abuser and is accused by his blood son Paul Grenier of child molestation.

  203. I think I know the riddle but ill hold off

  204. I want to know how many people have found Jesus Christ through this website? Zero!

    I want to know how many people have been edified by this website? Zero!

    Try trusting the Lord and shutting your mouth.

  205. Hey curious George, go back to sleep…

  206. George said, “I want to know how many people have found Jesus Christ through this website? Zero!”

    How do you know?

    “I want to know how many people have been edified by this website? Zero!”

    Actually, many have, I’ve got a ton of emails that report such.

    “Try trusting the Lord and shutting your mouth.”

    I am trusting the Lord. Why didn’t you just trust the Lord and not open your mouth?

  207. I’ve been a Christian since 1973.
    I’ve been “edified” with WISDOM of what our group needs to do.
    It’s unfortunate that many pastors & staff fall away from the real truth!
    Collecting a pay check means more than people.
    This blog has provided compassion & transparency.
    The rug has been pulled from under our feet. Where can you go to talk with someone when devastation happens? Here!
    Do we feel foolish because of trusting? Yes! That is why we are here. No yelling, but acceptance for us too.
    We are thankful with full hearts to read what each person has written. The time, effort, and their own heartfelt stories. This blog confirms what actions we need to take. We are taking one step at a time. There is always healing for abused & battered sheep, just because it has not happen to you, take a dive into the mainstream of leadership & you will see the “stains” behind the curtains.

    Thank you everyone for your valuable input, I’m EDIFIED.

    I’m going to keep serving Pastor Jesus.

  208. Menwhocare77

    Very nice words.

  209. Alex: “If CCOF is purely “independent” and is the one who does the Dove-Yanking, fine”

    Given the information I have developed above from United States Patent and Trademark Office, both “CCOF” and “Calvary Chapel” are registered by the same corporation. Therefore, it seems peculiar for them to claim no control over what CCOF does or whom it franchises the marks to.

    There is only one corporation here. So it is puzzling to me. What is Smith’s exact relationship to the corporation that registered the marks?

  210. How do you all feel about home churches vs meeting in buildings? Whether they be very small steeple like buildings or monoliths that look like small empires?

  211. Hey Juan (#361),

    Random much?

  212. JuanDLC,
    Just some things to consider…..

    There is a contention in San Juan Capistrano over a home fellowship that has not filed for permission to meet in a home. The city is fining the home owners. I don’t have a link, but it is in the home of Chuck Fromm.

    We could consider our church a “mega home church” of sorts. We’re less than 100 people. We meet in a building that is real cheap to rent, but we still had to pay close to 5 digits to get permission from the city to meet there.

    I don’t think enviroment has as much to do as does the heart of the people attending. I grew up in a church of around 500 in Southern California. We all knew each other and we were truly a family. We met in a building, but I don’t think we could have had the same enviroment in someone’s home, although we met during the week in a home as well.

  213. Get George Patterson’s books and read about the ‘sponteneous multiplication of churches concept’. It matters not whether you meet in homes or other buildings, it is the fidelity to Jesus’ instructions that matter…obedience-oriented discipleship.

  214. undercover and wide awake regarding home church vs buildings?

    When we were kids, we used to play a game at the local park called “hide the belt.” In this little game, one person would hide a thick leather belt, while the rest of us waited patiently on the otherside of the at a place called “home base” also known as “SAFE PLACE.” From this “SAFE PLACE,” we could not see to the other side where this belt was being hidden. The person who hid the belt would then signal for the rest of us to come away from “home base or SAFE PLACE” and begin looking for the belt. Once the belt was found, everyone was alerted by shriek of pain emanating from the poor soul which was unfortanute enough to be catching the whooping via this thick leather belt…hence, the name of the game “hide the belt.” While this poor sap was getting his, the rest of us ran with such a rush of adrenalin toward “HOME BASE/SAFE PLACE.” Once you touched “HOME BASE/SAFE PLACE,” you were then considered “SAFE from harm or Immune to danger.” Now that we were immune to danger, we were free to run back to see the outcome of this poor sap. There we were relishing in this poor sap’s misery and pain. And, with each smack of the belt we cheered louder and louder, breaking into laughter, mocking and scorn. If only someone would help this poor kid get to “HOME BASE/SAFE PLACE.” But, this was never the case. To be sure, he received his full whoopin. It was only after a severe beating took place, that some began to cry “enough, enough.” This poor unfortunate individual was then given opportunity or mercy to slowly make his way back to “HOME BASE/SAFE PLACE.”

    The moral of this story is that whomever owns the title deed to “HOME BASE/SAFE PLACE” makes all the rules. So, if you should be bold enough to challenge the one who holds the “title deed,” wrong or right, it matters not, he will see to it that you are punished then exiled from “HOME BASE/SAFE PLACE.” Once this unfortunate saint is excommunicated, he/she will be all alone while they are forced to endure the emotional pain, mocking, and scorn being inflicted by those still within “home base/safe place.”

    Who’s idea was “home base/safe place” anyway? And, who’s idea was it that such a precious place could be owned by someone by merely possesing a title deed or lease agreement giving possesion to a PILE OF STICKS ON TOP OF A PILE OF DIRT?

    These lands and properties with buildings built onto them were never called “thee church” in the Holy Scriptures. Who taught us this? “Hand me down doctrine did.” I would submit to all of you, that any property with a building on it that is considered to be “home base/safe place” is not within God’s Holy Scriptures. Even one select house owned by someone can never be considered “home base/safe place.” The elders and other sheep must always feel safe enough to speak up against any Sr. Pastor, Sr. Elder, etc. without the fear of excommunication by way of title deed to thee “home base/safe place.” I would submit to you, that the true bride of Christ is as bold as a lion and never submits to the goverment and/or wayward sheperds. The true Bride of Christ is being persecuted, imprisoned, and martyrd throughout the world even as we speak. She always deeply desires to gather with the saints. When it’s convenient and luxury allows, being free of persecution from the goverment and/or the goverment sanctioned church, she will meet in the diffent homes of the saints, but will never consider one place to be “home base or THEE Safe place.” For to do that, She would forfeit the accountability afforded her to scold and reprove wayward sheperds by the Final Authority of the Holy Scriptures. When persecuted by the goverment and/or the goverment sanctioned church, She will meet in the woods, in the mountains, at the beach, wherever necessary to find the sweet fellowship of the saints. May God be merciful to us and open our eyes. The Bride of Christ has always been alive and the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her.

  215. Loved your post JuanD and agree whole heartily… especial the last paragraph!!!

    hese lands and properties with buildings built onto them were never called “the church” in the Holy Scriptures. Who taught us this? “Hand me down doctrine did.” I would submit to all of you, that any property with a building on it that is considered to be “home base/safe place” is not within God’s Holy Scriptures.

    WOW!

  216. Their take on the CCOF doesn’t match the facts they reported to the gov’t. The IRS 990 for CCOF filed for the year 2007 lists Charles W Smith as President, Roger Wing as Secretary and Brian Broderson as VP.

  217. The same three are listed in the same rolls on the 2009 IRS Form 990.

    Chuck can’t distance himself personally from CCOF. He’s the President.

  218. Alex,

    Check your email. I sent you copies of the 990 forms for 2007-2009.

  219. Right on JuanDeLaCruz! Too many people kept forgetting that the “church” is the bride of Christ, not a “pile of sticks upon a pile of dirt” called a building. We are the temple of God because Christ is within us. In 1Corinthians 3:16, it says, “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” It never said “go to a building where the Spirit of God is at so you may be blessed.” No! That’s “hand me down doctrine” that people were led to believe.

    Another scripture that was twisted is Hebrews 10:25, it says, “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..”. People tend to think it’s talking about gathering together at a church building down at the corner of the street. We all must “go to church”. No! That’s not what that means. Remember in Matthew 18:20, Jesus said, “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them.” It means we are not to forsake our meeting with our brothers and sisters wherever we are, whether it’s at a park, at a beach, up in the mountains, or anywhere else. It does not need to have a multi-million dollar building to meet! It only take two or three of us to assembly! Remember, WE are the temple!

    Another scripture to keep in mind is 2Corinthians 5:1-2, it says, “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven…”. What does that say? The “earthy house of this tabernacle” speaks of our earthly body and if it is “dissolved”, meaning death, we’ll have a new body in heaven. That’s why we “groan, earnestly to be clothed upon with our house which is in heaven”, we long for the day when we get our glorified bodies, amen?! Our body is a tabernacle.

    Brothers and sisters, you must “unlearn” everything you were taught by these institutionlized “churches” and get into God’s Holy Word to study diligently like the Bereans did in Acts 17:11. In doing so, you will be set free from the deceptions that are being circulating in your “favorite” churches, leaders, and pastors.

    I have much to say but I whole-heartedly agree with JuanDeLaCruz on this one.

  220. Re: Ignominious @ 195

    I just noticed that your patent and trademark document about CCOF says,

    “…. that encourages accountability among affiliated fellowships of churches, and that administers the application process for fellowship with other affiliated churches.”

    Encourages accountability …
    Affiliated fellowships …
    Administers the application process for fellowship …

    Let’s recap: Chuck Smith is the President of CCOF (at least according to the IRS documents of 2009 he was,) yet he claimed to Alex, he had no knowledge of affiliation? This is the same man who won’t hold Bob Grenier accountable? Yet, he’s the president of CCOF that “encourages accountability”?

    *****************
    CONTEXT:

    Word Mark: CCOF CALVARY CHAPEL OUTREACH FELLOWSHIP

    Goods and Services: IC 045. US 100 101. G & S: Christian evangelistic and ministerial services in the nature of a ministry program among affiliated churches in different areas, that offers fellowship, bible study, prayer meetings, worship services, inspirational music, spiritual activities and events, that provides books, pamphlets, sermons, sound recordings and video recordings to affiliated fellowships of churches, that encourages accountability among affiliated fellowships of churches, and that administers the application process for fellowship with other affiliated churches. FIRST USE: 20050600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050600

  221. Good word picture, Juan! @ 215

  222. I can’t tell you how THANKFUL I am for people like you who will stand up for the truth and expose the hypocrisy and evil in the church. Be encouraged!!!! I too have suffered an ENORMOUS amount of spiritual abuse and depression from a meeting with a senior pastor at a Calvary Chapel, that HE called me in to. And, I was not in sin. This is widespread, it’s not just you – I believe it could be a ton of people suffering from Calvary Chapel’s lies.

    Calvary Chapel, in my experience, uses ‘projection’, to psychologically and spiritually abuse people, they make you think that the problem is with you, not with them.

  223. Hi B-

    There are many of us who would agree with you.
    How did it turn out for you?

  224. [...] if I read the tea leaves here (starting at say [link]) it looks to me like Chuck Smith has decided that he isn’t going to do anything about Bob [...]

  225. I edited out the sophomoric descriptions of Janet Carter, Chuck Smith’s attorney. A friend confronted me on it and he was right on that one. It offended Janet (and not in a good way, sometimes I offend and it’s appropriate…the description of Janet’s appearance, not one of those times, IMO).

    Not doing it expecting anything. I think they’re committed to Stone Walling and hoping this goes away etc. I edited it b/c this person was right and I thought it was the right thing to do (now).

  226. Good call Alex! I This single step on your part has moved your “respectability” factor back into the “almost acceptable” category I seriously believe…

  227. Baron Harris is something of a kool aid drinker and an institutional man. I knew Harris when I worked at CRI in the early 90′s. he seemed to think CS was on a par with Athanasius or Augustine. He’s nice, but he’ll never leave I suspect.

  228. What a shame that preachers or anyone in a leadership role feel that they are “ABOVE THE LAW”. My HUGE question is.”.WHERE” was the enabling accessorer to the child abuse which is the MOTHER!!!! WHY did she not protect her children from that brutal mans abuse?? Let me guess. He had her in a fearful submission hold and most probably abused her viciously also through the years numerous ways as well.. So basically this animal was holding his whole family hostage through fear tactics to keep up appearances…So the poor family all did their level best to “SURVIVE” this manic. out of control. rage-a-holic and abuser…This is a common coping skill in families where abuse is covered up..The survivors role play the psychological game called “STOCKHOLM SYNDROME”..
    As far as the religious addiction..a Christian author named Stephen Arterburn called “TOXIC FAITH” This will describe this man, his terrified family, the codependent role playing of the terrified family members and their coping skills and how to GO TELL everybody about the abuse..
    It is WONDERFUL that you have the courage to come forward and scream from the roof tops about the abuse..You will free many people who also have been in similar situations.. I pray that you understand that GOD is NOTHING like the COWARD man who abused and bullied everybody in your family…And I pray that you seek out abuse survivor long term counseling to work through the PTSD that most families end up with from this type of trauma… God Bless you all in your healing and recovery!!!

  229. What a shame that preachers or anyone in a leadership role feel that they are “ABOVE THE LAW”. My HUGE question is.”.WHERE” was the enabling accessorer to the child abuse which is the MOTHER!!!! WHY did she not protect her children from that brutal mans abuse?? Let me guess. He had her in a fearful submission hold and most probably abused her viciously also through the years numerous ways as well.. So basically this animal was holding his whole family hostage through fear tactics to keep up appearances…So the poor family all did their level best to “SURVIVE” this manic. out of control. rage-a-holic and abuser…This is a common coping skill in families where abuse is covered up..The survivors role play the psychological game called “STOCKHOLM SYNDROME”..
    As far as the religious addiction..a Christian author named Stephen Arterburn called “TOXIC FAITH” This will describe this man, his terrified family, the codependent role playing of the terrified family members and their coping skills and how to GO TELL everybody about the abuse..
    It is WONDERFUL that you have the courage to come forward and scream from the roof tops about the abuse..You will free many people who also have been in similar situations.. I pray that you understand that GOD is NOTHING like the COWARD man who abused and bullied everybody in your family…And I pray that you seek out abuse survivor long term counseling to work through the PTSD that most families end up with from this type of trauma… God Bless you all in your healing and recovery!!!……………

  230. Anna…bob grenier is as you describe him. We know him very well. We know what he is capable of. To be honest, none of us very close to the grenier family knew about the on-going abuse. I know we must take the grenier boy’s word for it for now, without the possibility to have all affected parties in the same room to hash out the facts. But I am convinced their stories are sound and very reliable, though extremely troubling. If you read this blog carefully, you will see that most are also convinced that bob grenier is a seriously corrupted man and needs be called into question.

  231. [...] Grenier has published an account of a meeting with Smith and a Calvary lawyer, in which Smith and other Calvary officials denied [...]

  232. I do not know if anyone is still reading this site. It looks like every thing is 2 years old.
    I DO know when the lack of accountability started, how situations like this are ignored oror covered up.I started attending CC Costa Mesa when I was 17 (much against my parents wishes) At that time Calvary was a circus tent. I remember Greg Laurie,Chuck Jr. and Lonnie Freesbie (sp). No deep friendships just a casual hi how ya doing type thing. If you have not read the autobiography of Lonnie, I strongly encourage you to do so, it shines a lot of light about what really goes on out of public view. I ran across Lonnie’s younger brother a few years ago, I asked him about the book,he said it was pretty accurate but went rather easy on Chuck and all the staff at CC Costa Mesa. Calvary just sort of threw the whole Freesbie family under the bus.

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