Contact Me

 

If you are a witness to abuse and/or corruption within Calvary Chapel…or if you are a victim of abuse and/or corruption within Calvary Chapel…and would like to share your story, contact me at agrenier7@gmail.com.

I am both an Advocate and a Journalist (among other things). My resume includes a degree in Journalism, an Editor position at a College Newspaper, by-lines and employment at recognized Local Newspapers, an Award for an Opinion Piece, publisher of several Community Magazines and author of many news, feature and opinion articles in those publications.

 

 

 

 

 Posted by at 5:20 am

  143 Responses to “Contact Me”

  1. [Moderated]

    This is meant to be a message for you not a forum post. Not sure how it will show up. Bye.

  2. Why did you not speak up about this years ago? Read the article in the Fresno Bee and your website. Frankly I believe you are trying to get back at your parents for other underhanded reasons. You should be ashamed of yourself! Your claims are beyond the statute of limitations anyway. You sound like a fool with your unfounded claims. Maybe one day your kids will do the same to you because that is what you are teaching them. Talk about bad parenting!!!

  3. The labeling of this site as “Calvary Chapel abuse” is so wrong. All Calvary Chapels are not as bad as the title makes them “all” out. It is kind of a broad brush being used. If it is just about Your step-fathers church then call it what it really is. Not denying that the claims could be true…but it paints a picture that is just not true at nearly all Calvary Chapel’s. You really would be making yourself look better to define it more clearly….because it makes you sound like a spoiled kid who is trying to get bake at your parents for something.

    Believe it or not, God “will” take care of this situation. You don’t need to be slandering all Calvary Chapel’s to make a point about one church!

  4. Sorry Jim, many CC’s are just as bad as this one. It’s the foundation of the leadership that perpetuates the problem. It raises up these wantabe men of God and places them in unchecked power. Their leader Chuck Smith knows it, supports it and created it. It’s one big scam. Its a pyramid scheme.

  5. If you don’t want the broad brush, then rise up and make a change.

  6. These posts didn’t show up on the old site for some reason…they’re here now.

    SSanford said,

    “Why did you not speak up about this years ago?”

    Because, I was too afraid. Bob told us we’d be separated and put in foster homes if the police found out about the abuse. Also, Bob was good at making us feel responsible for the abuse for being disobedient, etc and that the Bible required him to keep us in line etc etc. In my 20′s, I suppressed it. In my 30′s…especially having my own child…I confronted it. I don’t care if “you” believe me or not. You can pound sand go somewhere else for all I care. Don’t let the cyber-door hit you where the Lord split you.

    …and this gem:

    “Maybe one day your kids will do the same to you because that is what you are teaching them. Talk about bad parenting!!!”

    My kids won’t be saying these things about me someday…because I love them and parent them responsibly and am not an abusive jerk.

  7. Jim…CC has an accountability arm called CCOF that ad hoc holds certain CC situations to account. It is inconsistent. The form of “church government” CC has chosen results in unresolved issues…and issues that are sometimes enabled…sometimes covered up.

    Are there many good CC’s? Sure there are…and many good CC pastors. My guess is you won’t see them featured here.

    Are there bad CC pastors and situations? Yep.

    Are there cover ups? Yep.

    Are there some situations where CCOF and Chuck Smith Sr. have stepped in and dropped the hammer? Yep.

    Are there some situations where they haven’t? Yep.

    Are there some situations they’ve covered up even though there is wrong doing, adultery, harassment, financial scandal etc and they’ve kept it hush hush? Yep.

  8. Alex,
    You mean in addition to the documentation you have already received right? I know that there are many other stories out there that have not been told. I encourage you to write them and send them to Alex. He has given you many options stated above so you do not have to be fearful of retaliation. We cannot just stop here, as there are still some out there who are either unaware of it, do not realize how deep this goes, or the severity of it.

  9. Janelle…yes, in addition to the Bob situation.

    Major situations…SoCal and elsewhere.

  10. admin are you alex.and if so,could you bring me to light on these situations.i want to know the truth.maybe god put me on this forum for the right reasons.if you would god bless

  11. RED DOG…we are taking all this to God and trusting him to lead this effort to rebuke BG for his many transgressions against God’s people. When we say we are taking it to God, it also means we are going to act in real time in any way that may be used by God to bring this to a conclusion. If you pray to be helped physically by God, you not only look to God’s miraculous care but also to the care given by a skilled doctor. It takes prayer and obedient action to see God’s kingdom advance on this earth. It is simply unbiblical to think otherwise. God works in mysterious ways.

  12. Dear Alex, this is to you personally, not really to be shared. I was a Sunday School teacher and helped lead children’s music when you were little. I thought your dad was a good teacher but didn’t like his personality beyond that, but that isn’t the point here. I doubt he liked me any better. I have had a chance to talk with Paul recently and I want to tell you the same things I said to him. If I had had any idea of the abuse you were enduring I would have done everything in my power to help you! It wouldn’t have mattered who Bob was or what he would have done to me. My husband feels the same way. I am sick at heart to know I was there but never realized what was going on in your family, especially since I could see that Bob sometimes treated other people with disrespect and even thinly disguised cruelty. My husband and I left the church when you were still small. Please forgive me. If only I could go back in time.

  13. This would possibly prove helpful regarding helping solve the situations in numerous CC fellowships.

    http://ccsurveys.com/

    Anyone can anonymously take this survey.

    Also, here is the SRN Spiritual Abuse Questionnaire which people can print out and go through themselves, or send it to a family member, etc.

    http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/abusequestionnaire.html

    Caring for the hurting,
    Chris Lawson

  14. what happen to the articles on chuck smith raul ries,, (adultery at calvary chapels)

  15. dan, there are insiders past and present who have given different accounts. As “undercover” states in the other thread, there is no “smoking gun” when people don’t want to go “on the record” and outside of a non-CC controlled venue like a Courtroom, there is no way to get at the Truth.

    There is a constant theme, but differing details. I’ve been challenged by people I trust that it’s gossip and that my publishing the accounts I’ve been told by others are fueled by my anger toward Calvary Chapel for not being just and acting righteously, even though they profess a literal and “simple” interpretation of Scripture.

    I withdrew the articles after people close to me on the Phoenixpreacher and at home stepped in and told me I was wrong, that it was sinful and that I needed to remove them.

  16. thank you for your response..Merry Christmas

  17. This site is confirming what I have found out this week myself now having to go to a Christian Counselor.

  18. Trusted,

    I’m so glad you are getting help; and that you know by what we’ve all shared here, that you are not alone.

  19. Alex,
    You will be receiving an “essay” (for lack of a better word) from me as soon as possible. I would like to detail to someone completely seperate from the situation, church and my family what happened with me at CCFargo (ND) and just how spiritually damaging that was. I do not believe that all Calvary Chapels pastors will abuse the people of God spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, physically etc. but I have found that the “Moses” structure of leadership they emulate and implement in their pastorship does greatly lend to this problem. Add to that the destructive teachings they have on the place and authority of men in general and pastors in particular, you do have a powder keg where a man with a large ego may set himself up as King of the people and voice to be heard with little to no accountability. That kind of situation will always blow up eventually, and as a casualty in the war over another mans ego, I can not say that someone won’t walk away from that kind of abuse so violated that they walk away from the Healer Himself, Jesus. I was close, and that is something that I was so confident I would never even consider. Be careful, people, not to be willfully ignorant.

  20. Welcome, KellyO!

    Many of us could have written exactly what you posted so well. Yet another story, in another state, yet it sounds the same.

    I ran into a leader’s ego/insecurity which led to running into the pastor’s ego/insecurity. Neither would deal with the issue, one lied, and both acted cowardly, underneath the exterior of intimidation.

    Welcome to the ranks … those who’ve been burned by the unbiblical made-up Moses style leadership structure.

  21. Grieving, well said. KellyO, welcome. It’s bittersweet. Glad you’re here, but I know that “why” you’re here means you’ve been negatively affected by a CC Pastor who has misapplied/misinterpreted the Moses Principle or Moses Model.

    We need more of the Jesus Model: The Servant of All.

  22. Alex,

    I’ve been away from your site for awhile….a bit shocked to see it now.

    It’s understandable that you’re angry, hurt, and beyond frustrated. However, I thought that with Paul’s most recent revelation that the Grenier brothers’ case was gathering momentum and not the other way around. I also thought that this was the only place on the web that did a broad-spectrum treatment of CC abuse overall, and in that sense, served a much-needed purpose.

    As much as it is possible for someone outside your family to understand, I do. My family and I were part of CC’s collateral damage as well.

    I understand, but I hope you’ll reconsider the valuable and irreplaceable information and foundational base you provide for change for a corrupt institution.

    I hope you’ll surprise us by reconsidering, and after a much-deserved rest, come back with your blog–stronger than ever. Don’t let him win or the CC machine continue to run rough-shod over you or others.

    You have been quite a hero in many people’s eyes believe it or not.

    God bless you……and tons of us hope you come back!

  23. Hey Jack, I don’t know what or why Alex is doing what he is doing, but you know what….I trust him. So I’m not so sure what your motive is. He and all of his brothers have been through hell, so don’t you think you could cut him a little slack? We have all suffered that’s for sure, but I just don’t think it’s right for you to make him look like a bad guy. He has fought hard on these issues and has been our voice for over a year, so I kind of take offense to your statements.

  24. I have nothing to gain by leaving this message with that being said. I will say God has given me a great discernment. I attended CCV for 2 months and left a few weeks ago.Have they called me to see where I am at? No! I think I was shunned after a few services I attended so I would feel uncomfortable and just leave. Things are just not right there. They make you feel welcome at first. If you are attending a church and you need to grow as a christian where is the discipleship? Where does your tithing go? What does the church do in the community? Is there bible study with others so we can grow and mature as a fellow christian? Yes you can paint a pretty picture but where is the fruit? I think it’s important to invite others to bible study or just to talk with someone that is new to the church. I have more to share but will say use your own discernment when attending any church if it don’t feel right then leave, find another church no harm in that.

  25. I’ve been at ccv for 14 yrs. I’m sad as I Love the teachings there I Have witnessed so many wonderful people leave. Many have been there for yrs. like myself. Very involved then just gone. No reason,goodby. Just gone. Some worked at the church. I remember when Bob an Gayle talked about all there kids. Now there only Robert. I cant help to wonder why ? Makes me sad to think all this true. I’m so sorry for all your pain. God Bless For me, I’ll pray for all

  26. Not everyone is called to be a watchman. However, some are. Do you remember Jeremiah in the Old Testament? God called him to tell the children of Israel the truth. The children of Israel did not want to hear the truth. The people hated Jeremiah. The people devised plans against Jeremiah. Does that make Jeremiah a bad guy because he was telling people what God had said?

    Today, like in the past, when a watchman warns what is ahead, the people don’t want to hear it. They want to shoot the watchman or destroy the watchman with their words.

    God’s Word should be our standard for truth!

    Thank YOU for speaking the truth and having “passion” on what you are doing. We are not from CC but have experienced the same, and there are so many hurting people from churches / pastors who do NOT have accountability . Thank you again for caring for HIS people!

  27. Well said, MenWhoCare77!

  28. Hi Alex,
    Wondering if you could point me in the right direction on something. My aunt attends the CC Houston, http://www.calvaryh.org, – Pastor Ron Hindt, whom she really likes. She tells me how he gives an altar call every single Sunday. (so did Billy Graham) Sorry, I’m sorry, I’m just at the end of my rope with all this corruption amongst the “leaders” of the Church. And the reason I’m upset about this now is because I happened to look at their website this morning just to see what was going on there and, sadly, I found that Gayle Erwin (who gave a thumbs up to The Shack) will be speaking at their upcoming men’s conference. And I saw that Raul Ries’s son, Ryan, will be speaking there soon. I think I remember something on your blog about Ryan Ries? Can you help me with any pertinent info? Thank you!

  29. Julie, I’m not really a big doctrine/Theology guy on the whole discernment angle. NOT because I don’t understand it, I do, prolly too much. I’ve dissected virtually every doctrinal/Theological Box man has constructed.

    I’ll tell you what I know for sure:

    1. God Is.
    2. I am not God.
    3. Jesus Christ is Messiah, the Son of the Living God.
    4. Salvation is through Faith/Belief in Him.

    Scripture asserts that we “See through a glass darkly”….

    I affirm the Core Foundations of our Christian Faith. I extend Grace in non-essentials like Eschatology and other areas that are not critical to Salvation.

    I am more of a “Doctrine exampled by your Actions” guy. Those issues are easily discerned and cut-and-dry. If you molest children, beat children, steal money from the Church, lie constantly, hurt people, lord over your flock etc etc…that is TEACHING something that is a False Gospel…even if you are saying the correct words.

    Now, I will say this….Liberal Theology taken to its extreme produces guys like Rob Bell, Brian McClaren and Bart Ehrman….they are off the Reservation. I don’t know how McClaren and Ehrman can even be saved…they do not appear to believe in the Jesus Christ of Scripture and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    I am more disappointed with Gayle Erwin for cozying up to unrepentant lying Child Abuser Calvary Chapel Pastors like Bob Grenier, than I am for him reading the Shack.

    Regarding Ryan Ries…I’ve listened to his testimony…it was pretty raw, yet powerful (if true).

    I have listened to Ryan Ries kind of “teach”…terrible. Not his gifting.

    My concern with Ryan Ries is the whole “Whoever’s” thing sure looks and smells bad. “Rock Star Tattooed Super Heros for Jesus!”. Dunno. Something seems wrong there.

    I do know that Ryan’s dad Raul Ries is pretty darn corrupt and has had many moral issues as well and lies about the stuff and covers it up. That’s cut and dry stuff. Stuff he’s prolly going to have to face criminal investigations for in time.

    I “hope” Ryan Ries is saved, I really do. If he is, maybe he should focus on Evangelism, rather than trying to teach. I hope Ryan learns from the mistakes and sins of his father and doesn’t break the law and commit moral sins and become a liar and then protect and cover over the sins of his friends like Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia.

    There are some “good guys” in the Calvary Chapel Org/System/Movement. Some are still very committed to integrity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ…however, I wish they’d not associate with ‘the deeds of darkness’ and would break off and start their own Denomination with rules in place, proper accountability measures, proper church governance and a Servant Leader Jesus Model rather than a “lord over the flock” Moses Model.

  30. I don’t begrudge the Online Discernment Ministries. They have a right and responsibility to follow their conviction if that is what God has for them.

    My calling appears to be more to tackle abuse, corruption, lying etc and specifically with Calvary Chapel.

    I think many in the Online Discernment Ministry Groups present “a” Scriptural response to issues they tackle…even if I don’t agree with them 100%. I have yet to find a Scripturally-based Group that I agree with exactly 100%.

    I do follow Jackie Alnor and I have been reading Lighthouse Trails Research and I’ve read some of Jacob Prasch’s stuff. I read Roger Oakland as well. However, I read a lot of from the other sides of the issues as well…and I’ll be transparent, there are times when I’ve disagreed…many times, but I believe them to be “of God” and part of the Body as they affirm the Core Foundations of the Faith and I believe they are solid on Jesus Christ being the Son of the Living God and the Messiah and that Salvation is only through Him.

    Where I draw the line is this:

    1 John 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist–he denies the Father and the Son.

    Now, there are many ways a man or woman can “deny Jesus Christ”…some can certainly be doctrinal/Theological….and much can be in their “actions”….which I submit speak very loudly against the Gospel when a Pastor/Elder remains in sin in the Church and it isn’t dealt with Scripturally…and is in fact encouraged and covered over by guys like Chuck Smith (who himself needs to come clean and confess personal major moral failings).

  31. As far as “Ecumenicism” goes….we cannot link up with Islam. We cannot link up with Mormons (though they are really good neighbors and friends where I live, but they are off the Reservation and my heart goes out to them. Many are sincere, yet deceived).

    I’m not a big fan of the RCC…however, I dunno.

    The Eastern Orthodox have a lineage to the Apostles (Apostolic Succession) and don’t seem to have much of any of the sin problems the RCC and Evangelical denominations have had…which begs “good fruit” and makes me wonder. I have an EO friend who used to be in Calvary Chapel…and if she isn’t saved, I’m toast, as she loves Jesus Christ as her Messiah and she examples holiness better than I ever will. So, dunno.

    I understand the caution of “Apostasy” and the “One World Religion” etc. If those prophecies are being interpreted properly, it’s gonna happen, it’s a certainty (which does not mean those who are convinced of it shouldn’t call it out, if that’s their deep conviction and they should).

    I personally don’t affirm anyone or any Group that denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and the Messiah and that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I can have relationships with anyone who doesn’t (and I do, many Secular Humanist friends, Mormon friends, etc)….but we have to call sin sin and I contend for the Gospel and “try” to share with them my Faith and I pray for them and I love them and I often tell them that I hope I’m wrong about hell. I’d trade my eternity in heaven for no hell, no afterlife for all, but I believe that there is a Judgment, that we aren’t all Universally Saved/Reconciled apart from Faith in Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God as Messiah.

    In other words, there are lines and boundaries, but that doesn’t mean we can’t interact with “sinners” and have relationships with them…that is what Jesus Christ was all about. If we aren’t to contend with sinners (of which I am one)….then we aren’t obeying the Great Commission.

  32. I was just wondering if anyone here knows about Raul Ries and his phony Doctorate Degree? I mean his dissertation was written, but not by Raul Ries, a member of his staff wrote it for him, of course that assistant pastor no longer works there, he was terminated. This information is not new, but some how its never been made public. I use to attend CCGS, back when it was in West Covina, and I left before I was asked to leave. The assistant pastor that wrote Raul’s thesis was a professional script writer, and after Raul’s son, Shane, recorded the assistant pastor’s son songs without permission, he found his office cleaned out, and his stuff all packed outside the door. I am just curious if anyone else knows, besides me and the handful of us that left with that information, thank you.

  33. I emailed Raul and asked him if there is any truth to the allegations above regarding his dissertation/paper, etc.

  34. Despite really recommending the Murrieta main Bible college, i want to warn others about going to the Hungary extension campus. Please read about the abuses here: http://www.calvarychapelbiblecollegehungry.com/

    One of the teachers left for new Zealand to start another campus. I want to inform people to be very weary about those two campuses. Me and many others testify of the teaching not being what you expect from Calvary Chapel. And the behavior of the pastors really inexcusable. None of us there has ever experienced anything so bizzare.

    You’re be better off staying in CA or going to Germany or South America extension campuses.

    I still hope that Chuck Smith does a full investigation into the pastors at Hungary’s despicable behavior

  35. Dear “Hungary Calvary Chapel Bible college exposed” please prove some evidence what is wrong with CCBC Europe. I graduated once from there, and sincerely I seek to know if it is any false thing out here.

    Thank you in advance,

  36. Do you know anything about a Lonnie Frisbee/Kathryn Kulmann/Jesuit meeting in Las Vegas back in the day? Seems there ARE a LOT of ex Cathlolic CC pastors around.

    Was Lonnie Frisbee TRULY empowered by God?
    From what I read I feel he was.
    Very much flawed but with the Spirit of God moving through him.
    This is the one area I differ with Roger Oakland on; but Roger knows a lot more than I on this subject.

    Know anything about a rumored Laurel Canyon/Birth of the Hippies connection to the Jesus Movement and CC?

  37. Alex,

    I cannot access the links to the right re: “CCV, BG, the Good, Bad, the Ugly…What’s Your Experience” anymore. I think I started encountering this problem about a couple of weeks ago. I keep getting a message that Internet Explorer is encountering a prob., etc., but don’t have any problems accessing other areas of your blog or anything else on the Internet. Any ideas as to what’s going on???

  38. Alex,

    I still can’t access the comments on most of the articles you’ve posted. My Internet works fine otherwise. HELP!

  39. Lone Ranger, the website for Refuge CC was taken down after Alex posted the links.

  40. Oops, sorry, I just read your comments @ 37 and I misunderstood you, Lone Ranger.

    I can access everything on the side bar.

  41. Lone Ranger,

    Ditto on your experience. I thought it was something associated to my computer. Since I started on the site my computer has been progressively having problems. I constantly get the message that my explorer is experiencing problems…….. interesting.

    On another note, does anyone have any knowledge on the Ephesians 5:11 blogspot going down, or is discontinued?

  42. I am also having problems getting on this blog.
    It started a couple of weeks ago.
    Now it takes almost 3 minutes to load and then 3 minutes to just get the sidebar to load.
    Then when I click on the sidebar it highlights but takes a lot of time to come up

  43. It’s all the traffic. I need to change hosting services.

  44. Alex, have you heard of a book by Dusty Peterson titled Preying On Our Children?

    I thought you might appreciate a reading of the book’s Preface online:

    http://preying.org/PrefaceForTheBook.htm

    While it’s dealing primarily with child sexual abuse within evangelicalism it covers other subjects such as physical violence.

    Thought you might find this a worthy effort to get behind. I have been favorably impressed with Dusty Peterson as having a gentle spirit coupled with forthrightness. The writing of this book involved four years of research into the subject. It is a fresh work (published recently) on a very difficult subject as you know. A portion of the book is available to read online at the above website http://preying.org

  45. Reaching4Truth – Thank you for sharing about the book.

  46. Stumbled across this website…not for or against it, was just looking around. I did want to throw in my 2cents on the Hungary extension campus since I’m here though.

    I went to the campus for 2 1/2 years and was also an intern. my husband was there for 4 years (also was an intern) – someone in the comments cited ongoing (or past) abuse but it’s hard for me to believe in the validity of that claim especially since it’s such a small campus. I never saw/heard anything go on that could be described as abusive- only normal problems such as occasional roommate disputes, personal disagreements on theology, and student dating/breakup drama. Normal stuff. Still even when the pastors handled these problems I found them to be respectful of each other and students.

    As for the teaching it was in line with the same teaching I received from the Murrieta campus (I attended for 1 year) and my current Calvary Chapel church. My husband speaks Hungarian and took many Hungarian courses on campus and says that what was taught in those classes is also just fine. The teachings (past and present) are recorded so if anyone is Really concerned I suggested that they contact the campus and respectfully request access to the doctrine recordings so they could listen for them self what is being taught.

    I know the “New Zealand” pastor that was mentioned in the comment before- and know him to be of good character. His teachings while at Hungary have also been recorded- so you don’t have to take my word for it that he teaches from the bible and really knows his stuff.

    Lastly, I did click the think the former commenter provided and it didn’t lead to anything.
    I do know that some past students did not enjoy their experience on campus and the reasons why usually deal with the following:

    - they do not like the campus ethics standard: such as one agrees not to drink or wear promiscuous clothing while attending the campus. Pastors stress that one is not holier because they don’t do these things- it’s simply makes for less problems on campus. Some students can resent these restrictions to personal freedoms even though they agree to them before they arrive.

    - they do not like that the campus is not a debate club: Pastors teach from the Bible and believe that they are teaching a doctrine that best reflects what the bible says. Some students can be upset when what is taught contradicts their own opinions or long held belief.

    - they do not like authority: we all face authority in one way or another- police officer, teacher, parent and those authorities get to make decisions that impact you whether you agree with them or not.

    So that’s my 2cents, sorry for the long post

  47. I have read these comments with great interest.

    I attended a variety of Calvary Chapels for many years. I came to know and receive Jesus Christ through the CC ministry. I must say that while I stumbled upon the most important thing in my life — when it was time to go . . . it was time to go. I often look back on my experience with CC and I ask myself, “what was it all about?” While CC seems to provide a portal to knowing Christ — there has always been a high degree of immaturity within the ministry. It’s sort of like being in a room full of adult sixth graders who refuse to advance to middle school, high school, or beyond. It’s really a weird phenomenon: when first attending a CC — what you find there can really help you, but if you stay too long you will end up getting hurt. You are better off leaving and deepening your Spiritual walk with Christ along a different avenue.

  48. Thanks Hennie,

    That was a great comment about how you don’t advance to spiritual maturity within a CC. I found that to be true also.

  49. Hennie, I’ve heard that same sentiment expressed by many many people who appear to me to be very mature Christians.

  50. I concur, Hennie.

  51. I totally concur with you ladies. CC has been grossly remissive in neglecting their pastoral leadership and holding each other accountable as well as enabling the body of Christ to obtain the assistance they need when being abused and betrayed by those who called themselves Christians but practices sexual immorality and so may other behavior that Paul tells us should not be named among us.

    I know because my own husband who is now studying to be a CC Pastor is guilty of these things, yet a blind eye and deaf ear has been the course his ministry buddies has taken while I’ve was forced into the street to literally eat out of garbage cans. According to him, I have had “long term severe mental health issues.” Not true, just severrely traumatized as result of being treated so abusively then finding out after attending CC since 1978 does not protect the woman in the church even though he only started attedning their less than 4-5 years ago. Yes, he is a charmer and most are quite taken with my husband just as I was led to believe he was until shortly after our marriage in 2002.

    Yes, I have taken all the steps that is biblically outlined, but CC ignored me — wouldn’t even give me the respect and consideration to meet with without my husband as my husband had done with them while betraying and then discrediting me. They would meet with my pastor but I was not permitted to do this unless my husband was present. Not all CC Pastors go along with this type of pastoral care, but the ones concerning him did and that is who he sticks the closes.

    It certainly has caused my trust and faith to grow in the Lord. But my trust and confidence in CC overall has seriously declined. What more I know my situation is not unusual. There have been so many woman and men whom have shared with me about their own experience with CC and the lack of accountability and intervention that could have saved a marriage, a child, a spouse, and a life. It is my hope and my prayer that God would do a great work within the hearts and minds of CC leadership. They have been riding on a horse that has gotten totally out of hand and develop this sense of narcissistic grandiosity that they are exempt and above from being held to an account even by a woman who is as much filled with the Holy Spirit and is deserving of as much respect and honor,, and consideration as any man.

  52. Correction: Not true, just severely traumatized as result of being treated so abusively then finding out after attending, since 1978, CC does not protect the woman in the church even though in my situation, I am well educated and a licensed psychotherapist with an expertise in addictions, personality disorders, and apologetics. But because as I was told he is the “spiritual” leader of our household, therefore, it is for them to virtually support what he thinks is best for us, in spite of the evidence presented to them and the obvious harm it has and was doing to me. Fortunately, due to the support, care, encouragement, and prayers of those primarily outside of the CC leadership, I did survive and I have overcome the PTSD that was inflicted upon me as a result of the shortcomings and failures of my husband and the CC he attends.

    Evil can only reign when good men (and women) stand by and nothing. E. Burke

    It is time for CC body of Christ to stand up and author a petition that these things are happening, have been happening and that the old way of pastoring be replaced with leadership who are not afraid to be held to an account for all that they do and say. I think the petition should also include the right of any man, woman, or child to be able to be protected and not be afraid to truely sharpen iron with iron instead of using tactics that only serve to silence the victim and prevent truth, repentance, and reconciliation from taking place. What more, I think it should include the rights of a woman to be able to stand up for herself and not be “ruled” by a man who is not fulfilling his God ordained role as a husband who is instructed to lay down his life, as Christ has done to love his wife, as Christ had done for His own bride. Only then can any woman fulfill her role and choose to submit to her husband, as unto the Lord. CC fall severely short in recognizing and practicing these things. Even in their CDs you can hear them demeaning a female and making light of the man’s lusting after other sisters and females. Then foolishly tell the lie and teach the lie and practice the lie that because they are a ” man” they will struggle with this the rest of their lives. If they would read God’s Word, they would know that this whole perspective that they hold towards the female in the first place is what leads them into lusting, betraying, abusing, controlling, and bullying a female and yes, their offspring. That’s why they have a hard time obeying God’s Word and giving equal standing with and towards the female gender. This is what is refer to as Narcissism — for their own ego, pride, and self seeking desires and pleasures. And this is a huge practice in CC, as well as other denominations and this is what God has warned us about even in the Old Testatment to not to get caught up with. Yet, somehow, these things are joked about during their Men’s conferences?!!!!!! And then we wonder why our women are being sold out and cast aside for what —– not for the Glory of the Lord that for sure, but rather for the glory of one’s need to be lifted up, admired, and adored instead.

    Quite frankly it turns my stomach and leaves me quite heart broken at the same time.

  53. Linda, I’m so sorry for what the CC leadership and your husband have done to you. I’ve seen it many times over, just as you describe it here.

    I’m sure you felt that incredible freedom that one feels when they get out from under the thumb of that culture.

    In our last CC, the pastor -though through illegalities he had to “resign”- he continues to abuse his wife and kids. HIs domineering has restricted their ability to have access to others, except under his watch. I can’t imagine what goes on behind closed doors. This same pastor consistently supported men who were derlict in their marriages and I do not know of one instance when he supported even a clearly abused wife.

    Most clear story to illustrate was when one woman had a gun held to her head by her husband, while he threatened to kill her and the kids. (He was in CC leadership at the time.) He pulled the trigger but it did not go off. When the man left, the woman called this pastor and he said, “Well, if your kids died they’d go to heaven.” NO, I’m NOT kidding!

    Her story seemed so over-the-top that many of us hesitated … but plenty more surfaced over time and it became evident that CC, in general as a culture, does not have respect for women.

    Another story includes a man involved in a cyber relationship. He left and spent time with his cyber girlfriend, but came home claiming he did not sleep with her. The wife did not want to just let him back in till something was dealt with. The CC pastoral staff told her she had to let him back in the house and into her bed just 24 hours from the time he was with his cyber girlfriend. They claimed he apologized so that was enough and she had not options but to forgive and let him back in. That man never repented and continues mental and emotional abuse in the home of the wife, along with neglect of the children. Yet, he attends CC with pats on the back. When his wife had a subsequent nervous breakdown, NO ONE cared for her. NO ONE.

    May God bring true repentance.

  54. Grateful, thank you for your words of comfort and sharing your own knowledge what goes on in CC Orange County.

    Its amazing too me going through and having experience this type of abuse, betrayal, and persecution that I have not had a total breakdown as well. Although my husband never hit me, he did pin me against the wall one time. Since then he had made several threats of ending my life. He even showed me 4 bullets while telling that the only problem with this was he didn’t have a gun. I took to mean the bullets was for me, the mother of his child, the child, and himself. I reported this his pastor, the police, my therapist, friends, and the FBI. The police and FBI told me that whenever he did said or did anything like this I should contact his pastor, tell friends, journal it, and let him know that I’ve done this.

    We are married, not even legally separated, yet there are pictures of him on the CC church his attends FB showing him attending a couple retreat, wearing a ring, and the watch that I gave him just after our wedding. It was my wedding gift to him. It belonged to my youngest brother who committed suicide due to drugs, HIV, and so many other issues he had. The watch was a Cartier.

    I have written a letter to his pastor and others that are in a leadership role concerning these things. I love my husband very much and I love the body of Christ. I don’t like my husband very much, and I hate the things that he has done against our marriage, me, the Word, and His people. But apparently his church chooses to believe him even in the face of evidence presented to them. So I would just ask everyone to pray God would use all of this to reprove CC leadership and knock my husband off that horse he’s riding.

    In the meantime, also pray for me. I am still in hiding and I would very much like to be able to feel safe and have my own home again. Yes, in my heart I wish he would repent and bear the fruit of that repentence. But this will never happen without long term strict accountability and appropriate treatment for what he was diagnosed: Sexual Addiction and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

    Rarely does a person such as this repent, but they are very good at insulating themselves with those they know will enable them. So, my greatest concerns are of course for my safety, the safety of this girl he is with, as well as, the child or chldren they may have, and the body of Christ. It rips me up when I know these things are going on in CC. But then again, given the governing style of the leadership, is it really any wonder.

    My pastor tells me that it is no wonder he left the church we had been attending. He could not have continue in his way had he stayed. My pastor tells me that it is so wrong that his pastor had permitted this to go on as he has done. And to do so, will be added to his own account as the scriptures tells us.

    So yes, may God bring true repentance on these.

    Psalms 109:1-7
    Psalms 86:11-17

  55. Alex,

    I don’t know your whole story, just from what I have learned from reading the posts. Where is your story? Can’t seem to figure out how to access it.

    I find this interesting because I first came to CCCM about 1970 when the church was held in the tent and sunday school down the street in what either was, or became the bible book store. I as abot 6 years old at the Time.

    After the church was built, my stepfather worked there and my sister and I, along with my stepsister attended the school (MCA) for a couple of years.(1976-77) I was even baptised by Chuck Smith At the ocean.

    My stepfather then took a job at the conference center up in Twin Peaks, so that’s where I finished my schooling. Public School. (Rim Of The World High)

    I know alot of the people you are talking about, and may know your father, and possibly you. I was young at the time.

    I can’t really remember, but it was either Chuck or Romaine that married my mother and stepfather in 1974.

    After I became an adult I gave up the whole religion thing, not because of anything to do with the church, just went my own way. In the last year or so decided to look into it again and ran across Chuck Missler on Youtube. I had never heard of him but found what he said interesting, also found out he seems to have been a pastor @ CCCM. That’s what made me look up CC and how I came across you.

    Would really like to know your whole story. As far as Chuck goes, I never had a problem with him, but I was young and didn’t have any real relationship with him. While in Twin Peaks had a couple run ins with Paul Smith, probably mostly my fault, I was a teenager at that time.

    Sorry to hear of your experience (what I know of it). I find it hard to believe that Chuck would go along with covering this up, but by reading your blog and the other peoples postings, it seems the CC ministry is far from what I remember.

    I hope you find what you are looking for in this situation.

  56. Alex,

    Sorry, I wasn’t paying attention. You are from the CC in Visalia. That is probably why I didn’t recognize Bobs name, so we probably don’t know each other either unles you were in Costa Mesa between 1970-77.

  57. The Eastern Orthodox churches have their scandals too. Timothy Ware a convert to the Orthodox church in the 1950′s mentions that too many orthodox are too nationalistic. Being Orthodox is the same as being Greek or Russian. And their was a sex scandal in Greece among Bishops back in 2004. Also, its hard for Evangelical and Catholic Churches to rent space in Greece since the Orthodox church has influence with the Greek Govenment. John Warwick Montgremey representive cases of freedom of religion in Greece,, a leader from a protestant church went to prison for preaching openly in Greece which is against the law. A lot of Eastern Orthodox that are more conservative complain that few of their leaders are involved with the pro-life movement.

  58. I was at Harvest in Riverside ca under Greg Laurie for 14 yrs. There was no financial accountability or transparency. The church board want made up of men and women who worship and tithe there. Greg is almost worshipped, he travels with a security detail and when hes in church hes also surrounded by security. He supposedly got some threats. He lives far away from his church in Newport Beach. He used his pulpit to support Bush and the invasion of Iraq. I was told that it was hard to be a democrat there. As an outspoken critic of the Iraq war I was shunned by some because I wasnt following the conservative views of Greg Laurie. When the parting of ways happened, I told them to tell me in writing that I couldnt worship there any more. When I read the letter at home, it said that I wasnt to set foot on church grounds or they would be forced to call the police. I WAS SHOCKED because Im a registered nurse for 25 yrs, Ive never had a criminal record etc etc. It was then that I decided to expose their shortcomings to say the least. I wrote congress about their lack of financial transparency, and turned over some info to americans united for the separation of church and state. For more into please email me and I will email back with my name and phone number.
    GOD BLESS YOUR EFFORTS.

  59. ps.Ive tried to make the people in my community aware by passing out a small flyer telling people to worship in churches that have full financial transparency. Not to follow celebrity christianity. To worship in a church where the board isnt made up of the pastors friends but made of of people who donate their time, finances there. I have a much more powerful flyer coming up soon. The title is ” Is your church like this?”

  60. Zuni, I’m intrigued with the flyer you’re working on, and would be very interested in seeing it.

  61. Thursday, July 9, 2009
    Calvary Chapel Melbourne issue of financial disclosure

    I thought I’d attach a letter I sent Pastor Mark Balmer about my situation with the church here in Melbourne (I’ve been attending for 12 years). I’m very disturbed about the lack of financial disclosure & the way the church reacted to my questioning it. I wrote Chuck Smith who I met on a trip to Israel with him in ’93 but got no response.I’d like to let all those attend know what’s going on but haven’t figured out a way to do it. After that I’m leaving it in God’s hands and feel it’s all I can do to change things.
    Chip Rohlke
    President Christ is Creator Ministries

    May 10,2009
    Dear Pastor Mark:
    I’ve been involved in Christian Ministry for 28 years and only once was I called before the elders of a church for discipline. The sad thing is that it wasn’t for a moral failure like fornication, or stealing, or lying, or being abusive. It was for asking a simple question within a church body- “Are the churches finances open to examination”. Now that’s an amazing thing…for no where in scripture did I see church authority to impose intimidation and coercion in an area of non Biblical areas of procedure and preference like financial transparency. Funny how pagan companies and government are required to be totally transparent but the church of Christ isn’t?
    I’ve struggled with writing you about this for many months for when your elders called me to meet with them I was subjected to something that I can only describe as a form of spiritual abuse. Never in my life have I been so humiliated, character and motives questioned, intimidated and coerced into accepting what is generally described by numerous pastors I’ve met with as ‘a very bad policy and borderline abusive reaction’. I talked this over with the Pastor of the 1st Baptist Eau Gallie, Larry Booth(Our Father’s House), Jack Taylor, Dr. Francis Schaeffers staff at L’Abri, and Billy Graham’s ministry.
    All without exception were not surprised by what happened to me but sad that any church would behave in such an unbiblical and un Christlike manner-not to mention they all thought financial disclosure was essential to a healthy church.. Reminds me of Martin Luther at Wurm where the church wanted to kill the messenger rather than hear the message.
    Personally I was offended when the elders at this meeting impuned my character and also rejected the idea that I could be speaking for God. What arrogance! When I wanted to meet with you to discuss this you told me in the commons “I’m not interested”. In my 15 years with Peter Lord’s church he would have never said such a rude thing to any of his flock..no matter how he felt about them. But I guess you’re not Peter.
    I hope you take this in the right light. Whether you change your policy or not is between you, the church and God. In any case I certainly think a public apology is warranted. Otherwise I’m planning on going public with this experience that the body might be aware that the church is entering an area of control that I have only experienced in religious cults.
    Sincerely,
    Chip Rohlke
    President Christ is Creator.com Ministry
    PO Box 34117
    Indialantic Fl 32903

  62. Re: Linda @ 55

    “Grateful, thank you for your words of comfort and sharing your own knowledge what goes on in CC Orange County”

    Actually, I was just sharing from what I know of from my first hand experiences and those of others where I have 2 or 3 witnesses. I do not have personal experience in Orange County; however, it is CC’s birthplace and I would expect the CC DNA issues to be embedded there.

  63. Re: Chip Rohlke

    I’m glad you posted your letter. When people talk to me about how great their CC is, I just ask them if they think church finances should be transparent. When the say yes, I encourage them to simply ask if they can see the finances. Without fail, they come back to me with wide eyes and disbelief of how they were treated.

    So far I’m batting a 1000 and every one of them have been encouraged in one way or another to leave the church … just for asking.

  64. Interested in Zuni’s flyer

  65. The old flyer has the heading ” the church of Jesus should not be a business for profit.”
    its says that the church finances should be monitored by church elders and not by a board made up of the pastors friends. it asks if they know who makes the financial decisisons in their church. It also tells the reader that if they donate their time and money to their church, they shouldnt have to ask to see the books. It tells them to demand financial transparency. It also asks the reader how do they know that some of the money goes for the poor and not for other things.

    It says that senior pastors should live by example and stay in the community where they have their church. That some move to multi million dollar homes far from their church. That the gospel is now used by some to gain wealth….

    The flyer doesnt mention Harvest by name because it was meant to be an eye opener to those who follow blindly and to expose things happening in many churches that are not right.

  66. One of the things that bothered me was what I felt was extreme security measures that Greg Laurie had while I was there. I wondered if he trusted God for his safety, rather than man. I got the feeling that he feared death a lot. and it made me wonder if he beleived in the heaven he preached about. You cant tell people your God is all powerful and that nothing happens without him willing it or allowing it and live in such fear. Another thing, some members were saying how thankful they were to have Greg as their pastor because he could be anywhere else. I thought differently, how blessed he was by the people of Riverside that made his church a mega church by their attendance, bought his books, tapes etc etc. People are asking me about the flyer as soon as I get it together I will post its content, like I did with the current flyer I pass around at community events.

  67. Chip thank you for posting your well written letter. Lots of people will be able to relate. Zuni Cuhman thank you as well for the flyer idea. I might just have to make up some flyers to hand out. With email in this day and age I should make a nice little attachment to send out to some old friends.

  68. Grateful,

    Would you please be willing to take over this site because it appears that many helpful comments and info like Chip Rohlke @ 62 are getting buried that could be a new thread by themselves.

    We also have spammers/trolls/cc pastors here printing non-sense in order to bury the comments on the right side of the homepage…

    I respect that Alex has moved on but why freeze CCA??? This site is important for so many reasons and extremely helpful to hurting and confused people trying to put the cc abuse pieces back together, sad to see it flounder at such an important time as this!!!

    Please prayerfully consider my request… Alex I am sure this must be your decision as well?!?

  69. I agree with The Onceler.

  70. Jeremy when I made up my flyer the intent was for the public to know that there are churches that lack financial transparency and accountability. I also wanted the public to know celebrity christianity wasnt what Jesus intended his for his ministers.. So in the flyer I dont attack any church in particular but at the end of the flyer I ask people to take a stand against celebrity christianity, ministers who use the gospel to gain personal wealth and personality cults. I encourage the reader to support churches that are financially transparent, whose ministers stay in the town or city where they have their church. I also go into christian chat rooms to say the same thing. I beleive that God is in what Im doing. what Ive read in these posts sounds so much like what I experienced at Harvest. It only encourages me to take a stand . Thru my flyers, and conversations with Christian pastors I found out that not all churches lack the financial transparency and accountability that I experienced at Harvest.

    re

  71. Jeremy in the flyer I tell people to take a stand against celebrity christianity, also against those that use the gospel to gain personal wealth. Talking to other pastors in the community I found that a lot of churches publish quaterly or yearly financial reports for their members. The question I asked myself before I started passing the flyer was “would Jesus want his church to be financially transparent?” and the answer was a resounding yes.

  72. Re: I heart Sheck

    “I agree with The Onceler.”

    Do tell what you mean, Motel?

    Are you all beginning to thaw on your side of the mountain?

  73. Wow. Just came upon this site tonight– I can’t remember how or why.
    I was a member of a CC church about 15 years ago and left. The reason was a spiritual and personal one, but also rooted in the social climate of the church. As a woman and non-white woman– and an educated, single woman– it became (increasingly) a place where I couldn’t be myself or be myself in Christ. The “whosoever” of my preteen years were whittled down to “get married, have babies, and don’t teach” when I became an adult. The CC culture is both patriarchal and reactionary while wearing a cloak of progressiveness. It really does seem to be about building a “man kingdom” in more ways than one. But I am grateful for all the positive things I have learned from the CC movement and those of my friends who have been involved in it. I hope that the exposure of their faults helps them to minimize their myopia.
    After reading a few things on this forum, CC will be in my prayers in more specific ways. I knew others had experienced difficulties with this denomination that refuses to acknowledge itself as one, but to see the extent is definitely eye-opening and affirming that the nudging inside of my heart was not wrong. Granted, I know that no group is without sin. But when a group presents itself as being without sin and proceeds to cover up its wrongs all while pointing the finger regularly at others, the floodlights are definitely needed.
    Thank you for daring to “go there”.
    My prayers are with all of you and CC too.

  74. #74 Thank you for your comments. I had the “nudging” inside me too, and am so glad I also left after experiencing what was behind their “cloak of progressiveness.”

  75. Yeah Willy, kinda obvious they’re spambots not manually-entered spam because the comments are nonsensical.

  76. Alex: I just want to say I wholeheartedly believe you on your abuse about your step dad and Calvary Chapel’s lack of action. I am sorry, as a fellow believer in Christ, and I feel your story should be told.

    That being said, I’ve spent the last few hours reading your website and I don’t have as nice things to say about it. Firstly, I found this website when someone linked to Calvary Chapel Green Valley’s Yelp page. Was there really a need to do that? Is there some abuse/story there with Pastor John? Because that act was really small and pathetic.

    Secondly, being a veteran Christian, I can say Calvary Chapel is a miles ahead of the “emerging” church movement. And although I’m sorry that Pastor Chuck did not act rightfully toward you, it’s not right of you to continually be adding fuel to the fire by writing petty articles attacking other Calvary Chapel. For all of Pastor’s Chuck’s faults, you have to respect him for starting this movement and devoting his entire life to being a man of God.

    That being said, it took a lot of courage to do what you did. I hope you use your blog to strengthen the church and serve as a watchdog. As they say, “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

  77. Ive attended calvary for many years and heard many sermons identifying Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses as cults. I was very shocked and dissapointed to hear chuck Smith claim that some Mormons are saved despite their religion, you see this was done to justify his political leanings for the upcoming elections. He has allowed his fleshly preferences and political motivations. to. distort the true teachings of Christianity. This man and all like him in the calvary movement like jack Gibbs who preach politics weekly have shamed themselves and are going against everything. Jesus taught. Do they not remember his words to give to ceaser what is ceasers? They’re playing on a slippery slope for their own motivations. True Christians need to. take a stand.

  78. I have been attending CCFtl for many years and have brought many people who have asked me about Pastor Bob’s theological training. I can’t seem to find it on the website. I get the message and really don’t care. But how do I answer their question, or where can they find it on the website?

  79. Ms. Higgins,

    You will want to go to the bookstore and see if you can find a recording of his testimony. From what I remember; He is from Las Vaegas, NV. He accepted the Lord there. He attended CC Las Vegas. I don’t remember if he was on staff or not. I believe he was. You will be able to find out for sure from someone there. As far as his theological training? It is similar to that of most old school CC pastors. It was on the job. (Chuck Smith preferred it this way. He down played Raul Ries getting his doctorate in theology. I don’t have a problem with this per se. Jesus chose 12 men who were untrained. However, it is the responsibility of the called individual to maintain their studies and constant seeking of God’s will. That will be displayed in the behavioral patterns of a particular ministry. After having attended and worked at CCFTL I can tell you that a sound execution of this is not occurring. I will respect your desire to not go there.

    You can go to calvaryftl.org. In the search engine type “bob’s testimony”. You will go to a page that has a number of links.

    God bless

  80. Alex, i have a question that has been bothering me ever since i came across your blog regarding ‘pastor Bob’ and it stems from a senior pastor’s conference back in the 1990′s in which ‘pastor Bob’ talks between the messages delivered about how Bob went into ‘reformed theology’ (calvinism) and how ‘pastor Bob’s’ ministry began to suffer and how cold and indifferent he became towards his congregation, the so-called ‘love’ was gone (as exemplified by pastor Chuck) and how Chuck kept calling Bob and asking him if every thing was all right, ect. and all that, and how ‘pastor Bob’ ‘repented’ and how gracious Chuck was in restoring him, and it was almost like a staged object-lesson in just how evil the perils of reformed theology is, ect. ect. I really knew nothing about reformed theology at the time other than the fact that it developed out of the reformation and how it saved the body of Christ from the roman catholic apostasy that still exsists today. I think it was the same conference that Brian Brodersen said that ‘reformed theology is the greatest threat to Calvary Chapel’ and for a guy like me, that was the gauntlet thrown down that started getting me to ask questions. Anyway, is this true? In the last few years i started asking questions about calvinism and have gotten no real answers from any of these guys, and basically CC has driven me into John MacArthur’s camp and alot of bad doctrine and weak teaching has been corrected, although i still attened a CC where i live. But reformed theology is for another discussion for another place and time. My only problem with CC pastors is that they just really don’t have alot of answers because of no proper theological training, and most of them are quite shallow and want to tow ‘the party line’.

    Pastors that i have talked to recently who have left CC told me of their journey out of CC and these guys were very transparent and open about their own sinfulness and were very humble. Kind of a stark contrast from what i have gotten from most CC pastors.

    Anyway, Alex can you shed some light on this about ‘pastor Bob?

  81. @47 stated that CCBC in Hungary and Murrieta:

    “- they do not like that the campus is not a debate club: Pastors teach from the Bible and believe that they are teaching a doctrine that best reflects what the bible says. Some students can be upset when what is taught contradicts their own opinions or long held belief.

    @ 48 stated that: “While CC seems to provide a portal to knowing Christ — there has always been a high degree of immaturity within the ministry. It’s sort of like being in a room full of adult sixth graders who refuse to advance to middle school, high school, or beyond.

    The school of scholasticism and critical thinking would enable the process of being able to reason various schools of thoughts pertaining to theology and other philosophy. If it does not, this would not be, nor should it be consider higher education. It’s unfortunate that people would choose such a college where such processes are not only facilitated, but also do not possess a staff that provides diversity nor adequate training other than to reflect a very rote method of learning. In effect, it has not gone beyond grade school level of teaching and learning. In other words, what is being produced are mirror images of CS and his entourage. That is unfornate because it renders “each” person incapable of being able to discern those things that have been brought to mind on sites such as Alex’s.

    So, now we are at the crossroads with the court case now having been initiated by Bob Grienier against his own son, who grew up in CC. This my brothers and sisters in the Lord is the fruit of such a system that is built upon a “Mose’s Model” that promotes a veryclose and rigid system, rather than a healthy flexible sytem that enables each person to grow and develop while iron sharpens iron. Essentially it’s called “brain washing.”

    Hoping this case enables all who were and are of CC to be more real in the estimate of themselves, thereby exacting the changes that are way overdue in leadership and church structure and participation in all things, including accountability, church discipline, education, and those things that lead to primarily to the abuse of woman and children.

  82. Clarification: “It’s unfortunate that people would choose such a college where such processes are NOT facilitated, ”

    “That is unfortunate because it renders “each” person AT A DISADVANTAGE of being able to discern those things that have been brought to mind on sites such as Alex’s.”

    In other words, for those who have bought into those issues that others are now exposing as a result of abuse not being addressed and accountability not being a mandate for the entire congregation, including the leadership and the structure that faciliates such dysfunctionalis and abuse, this would be considered a “closed” system that does not permit the healthy interaction of information flowing in and out that would facilitate a much higer degree of learning, and critical thinking.

  83. I do so miss when other people speak. I have a little dificulty with people who have complicated agendas. I teach writing and Language/ speech my best effort is always simplify. Pastors I love for some reason are Ron Parshley …Dr Stanley… Joeseph Prince / Marilyn Hickey and that other Lady who teaches to love every day. these people seem to have sincerity and simplicity. Father Dalton of St Bernadettes’ has a gift and always ask “Do you Love Jesus? Have you told him? I went to Catholic Church for years but I got Saved at Calvery at the age of 63 Must surely be the Last Days.. What is Happening to me?? I used to be a Gnostic comunicant of The O.T. O. since 1972.. How will I share my experience to the Brethren? I guess now I am truely Rosa Crucia.. the Order within the Order. What a Strange Story to be sure. Pamela Davin

  84. Re: Mark @ 82

    That’s the story I’ve heard from someone who attended Visalia at the time Bob Grenier “repented” of Calvinism.

    I think Alex said the money dwindled and repenting was a way to get the money back.

    My last CC pastor just repeated what he learned from other CC pastors. On the occaission he handled a Scripture poorly, he could not face it. No one was allowed to gently point it out. No discussions, period.

    At one point, he told me I was not healed due to sin in my heart (though he knew of nothing, just a judgement based on the fact that I was sick,) then pointed to a passage about taking the Lord’s supper and told me the passage stated I had to repent in order for me to be healed by taking the Lord’s Supper.

    I knew that was not what the passage said, so I asked him privately if he could explain to me how he got that from the passage. He became so upset that he just said, “I don’t care if you read the passage 50 times, you read it wrong.” end of discussion.

    If you only know to repeat the party line, then you become afraid of any discussions. He knew I had a theology degree and he knew he was playing fast and loose with the Scriptures.

  85. Any thoughts of creating a thread for the overseas/international abusive calvary chapels?

  86. Sorry, been meaning to do that for some time, have had several requests. Thanks for the reminder. Thanks to the others who emailed requests. I’ll get a thread up tonight.

  87. This is all a much of absurd ranting by someone doing the devil bidding. I go to a Calvary Chapel and have listened to soooo many CC pastors and all of them preach the same message the word of the Lord, a relationship with God and Loving others as self. There is NOTHING corrupt about any of that. Its ashamed that some of you posting probably see yourself as Christians yet you commit slander against an organization where the Holy Spirit is soooo present. the Holy Spirit does not present itself were the preachers are corrupt and the Lord does not grow a church that is not founded on his principals. those are key markings of a church that is in Gods Favor.

  88. Yolanda, anyone can preach God’s Word, but to do be doer of the Word is another matter entirely. Please spend more time on this site to be better prepared in discussing the basic underpinnings of an organization that has not followed scripture according to what Jesus and the apostles have told us to do.

    It is not slander if these things be true.

    How do you know if it is the Holy Spirit that is prescence or if it simply due to crowd mania. For instance, last night there was a high level of excitement and a sense of hope among those participating in the New Year’s celebration in Times Square. Would you then say, this was due to the Holy Spirit being present. Of course not. If the Holy Spirit is truly present, then there would be an outpouring of souls wanting to repent and to keep the leaven out of the body of Christ that gathers together. Not so with CC, but rather there are many cover ups and water downs going on instead, while seeking to silence those who have spoken the truth.

    You are correct when you stated, “the Lord does not grow a church that is not founded on His principals. Those are key markings of a church that is in God’s Favor.”

    My question to this would be:

    1) Do numbers of churches determine “growth” for most who come are not saved.
    2) Are you saying that because there are many CC churches, this is a sign that the Holy Spirit built them? What would say to it was because of the majority ruled, Christ was crucified as well?
    3) Are you not familiar with the 7 letters to the churches?
    4) Are you not familiar with those who speak smooth words, but do the very things that they tell you not to do? And when being exposed, they seek to devour and destroy by using the congregants to turn on those who are speaking the truth? Are you that naive and trusting that you do not search these things out beyond listening to words, but fail to observe that which is far more evident and witnessed by those who have been harmed and have testified to the body of Christ by using this site and other venues as well? I know, because I once did this myself—for over 34 years. As many of this site would also bear witness to as well.
    3) Does emotions determine whether or not the Holy Spirit is present?
    4) What determines if a person is called to be a Pastor?
    5) What qualification must a pastor, teacher, deacon, elder possess?
    6) Who is the body of Christ?
    7) How do you know if you possess the Holy Spirit other than saying, “I believe.”
    8) What did James tell us about works?
    9) Who did James tell us who were the children of the devil, that is Satan and who is the child or children of God?
    10) What is the Moses’ Model and how does that differ from the N.T. church?
    11) How is your tithes and offerings being used and what part do you have in deciding these things, other than to just hand it over?
    12) Why do missionaries need to raise their own support?
    13) Why is adultery and bigamy tolerated in the pulpit and other leadership roles?
    14) Why is church discipline not applicable to the leadership?
    15) Just how much do you know of the governing corporation that CC is seated upon?

  89. Slander? Where’s the false accusation?

    Everything I’ve said about my former CC pastor is in the public record.

    Stealing
    Lying
    Spiritually abusing
    Immorality (multiples)
    Anger issues
    And so much more…

    No slander here.

  90. Keep up the excellent work , I read few content on this web site and I believe that your site is really interesting and holds circles of superb information.

  91. what is your opinion on a woman and a man living together and sharing expenses, when they are not romantically involved, just good friends? I know the man would like to be “more than friends”, but the woman is only interested in friendship. I am afraid that she will eventually be pressured to give him what he desires, living in such a close context.

    Thanks, Paula

  92. Dear in Christ,
    I
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    advent. But still there is still a lot of Gospel work to do. A number
    of precious souls are perishing before our eyes without knowing Jesus.
    Our ambition is to reach every nook and comer and promote the Gospel to
    every perishing soul. In this regard I request you to have your
    involvement in the way that our Lord inspires you and enables you.

    You
    know that India is a country of idolatry and superstitions. Indians
    worship more than 35 million gods and goddesses. Out of one billion
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    Before that happens we wish to do as much Gospel work as we can and
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    very humbly to have your partnership in the Gospel work in India. If it
    is possible for you please visit India to share the Gospel with our
    people, community activities and encourage missionaries to visit India
    in teams to have a thunder bolt on the darkness of the enemy and lead
    many in the light of salvation. Your regular prayers are more
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    Jesus said to Peter in John 21:15-17 “ Feed my
    Lambs”. We believe that it is the will of our Heavenly Father to feed
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    Thanking you,
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    Sukumar .S,
    INDIA

  93. Very fun reading! Meeting your soul mate IS great, but enjoying yourself in your perfectly wonderful singleness makes the wait good, not unbearable. And the wait for the perfect one for you is well worth it! Guys who spill their drinks all over you without offering to buy you new shoes or dry clean your dress should be nixed off the list, just saying.

  94. You should be ashamed of yourself. You motives are what are disturbing. Instead of trying to mend any wrongs of the past (if any), you are acting on revenge. You are trying to destroy and not reconcile. You are not acting like what a true Christian would do. You are commanded to forgive as Christ has forgiven you..Your credibility is shot….I feel sorry for you

  95. “rick” my motives are justice and accountability and I followed Matthew 18 but did not have a willing partner on the other end of that biblical mandate.

    The offending party is required to be honest and to confess and repent of the wrongdoing/offense.

    BG doesn’t cop to the offense. CC Pastor Gary Ruff told me that one cannot have “repented” if they lie about the sin/offense…therefore BG has not repented.

    Matthew 18 is clear as to what to do.

    Ephesians 5:11

    1 Timothy 5:19-22

    So much scripture that speaks to the OPPOSITE of what you are saying.

    Even Luke says: “If” they repent, forgive them

    Your credibility is shot, you don’t even seem to know the bible you are quoting from.

    We are commanded to forgive, we are not commanded to cover up child abuse and corruption in the church.

    We are commanded to “expose” “rebuke publicly” and “warn” when we see abuse, corruption etc, especially by pastors/leaders who are “held to a higher standard” and will endure a “stricter judgment” all according to the bible you are quoting from.

    My suggestion is you read the whole bible and don’t ignore the many many passages that speak to the opposite of what you are saying.

    You are judging my heart and you are wrong. I am not acting on revenge, I am acting on a deep conviction to address these issues and to “seek justice” as the bible commands with regards to these matters.

    rick said, “I feel sorry for you”

    Save the passive aggressive manipulation for someone else, jerk.

  96. rick -
    You are the one who should be ashamed for not being heartbroken that such things are allowed in a church by one of its pastors. If you had read or understood the whole story, you would know that Alex has tried to reconcile, has tried to enlist the support of the church and the legal system to address the tragedies that have occurred within this family. You are exhibiting a classic example of blaming the victims rather than being outraged by the actions of a man who is unfit to be filling a pulpit. There is a huge difference between revenge and justice. Bob ‘s refusal to accept responsibility and accountability for his actions is having the natural consequence of that which was once hidden in darkness is now being shouted from the roof tops.

  97. Since the days behind Albersons .Thank you for all you do . I am that guy baker at publix that have made a few of the cakes you have had at your birthdays. My wife and life are doing well because of the grace of god and the way you have given a understandable word. thank . Big time Baker Bob

  98. Wow! So crazy to read all of these posts! I just came to Christ a few months ago and attend the Calvary Chapel in San Juan Capistrano. I am currently at a women’s retreat at the Murrieta Hot Springs/Bible College and I’m having an amazing time growing closer to God. Me and my friend couldn’t afford the retreat but we were anonymously sponsored to go. As a new believer it’s quite troubling to read about all of the “drama” that goes on at the top of the CC ladder. It’s unfortunate to see so many people wrapped up in all the “politics” of religion. No one forces me to give money to the church and I don’t because I don’t have any anyways. One thing that confuses me is, if your so concerned with where money goes then I just say, simply don’t give money. The bible says its not about your works anyways so it shouldn’t convict you when you don’t give money. I truly enjoy the Calvary chapel in San Juan Capistrano because pastor John Randall reads straight from the bible and never “encourages” people to give money. I will be praying for you all that are struggling with these issues though. Ultimately, all the “corruption” and “drama” within certain churches will be dealt with by God so there shouldn’t be any reason to trouble yourselves. Give it to God! That’s it! But it is good that this is all being discussed by those that have or that are being directly affected. Truly, we can’t trust anyone but God and I’m happy to have randomly found this website. Reassures me that everything may look all pretty from the outside but on the inside there is sin buried deep within CC’s, well, any church for that matter. We’re all sinners though. No church is going to be perfect and not have their faults. Some more prominent than others apparently. I’m sure these pastors may “cover” up a lot of their sins and continue to sin because we all do but we can be sure that God will deal with all sin and take care of it for us. My only concern is what is being preached at the church I attend. I don’t care too much if any pastor is a hypocrite or not. Is what they preach the Word of God or not? That’s all that matters! I’ll be praying for you all and I hope that God gives you all peace and takes away any pain that any of you may have! God bless :)

  99. “I don’t care too much if any pastor is a hypocrite or not. Is what they preach the Word of God or not? That’s all that matters!”

    What can we say in response to that?

  100. We can say that we’re all human and we all make mistakes. There’s no perfect pastor out there. Sounds like your already trying to nitpick and judge me for what I said and find some kind of “counterattack” which is unfortunate because I don’t see my post as a negative comment. I’m sure theres some pastors out there that commit sin daily but say differently. Oh wait, don’t we all do that? We sin without even knowing it! Some more than others sure. I get what your saying though. For a man to know and preach the Word of God then turn around and do horrible things doesnt sound all that great and im not saying im for it at all! All I’m saying is, I am a new believer and I’ve learned that the job of “Judge” is already taken by God. I’ve read about God’s wrath on the unrighteous and it sounds to me like He’s got it covered. I just wanna hear about Jesus! That’s all!

  101. 1 Corinthians 5:12

    “It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.”

    ____________________________
    1 Corinthians 5:11-13
    New Living Translation (NLT)
    11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[a] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.

    12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”[b]

    Footnotes:

    5:11 Greek a brother.
    5:13 Deut 17:7.

  102. Alex and Maude, I have seen people ask about Bob Coy’s thread……so what is up?

    Is this a “godly man’s” friends shutting down any info on his activities?

  103. I’m trying to contact you urgently at agrenier7@gmail.com but haven’t received a reply. Can you please contact me?

  104. CD: I have sent you an e-mail. I don’t know if Alex is responding to e-mails.

    If anyone has questions/concerns/stories to share, please send to me at:

    CCA.Maude@gmail.com

  105. Wow to the above! Let’s pray for one another. God’s peace along with his Mercy and Grace be with us all.
    Matthew 6:9–13 Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For you are the Power and the Glory forever…. AMEN
    Luke 11:2–4 Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. your will be done,
    on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

    May God’s peace be with you today and everyday to follow.

  106. Hi Jim,
    I am not sure you read my complaint about the Calvary eschatology. It appears that Calvary Chapel’s literal belief of the Bible includes a literal belief in the ethnic lineages and therefore who is ‘saved’ and who is not ‘saved’ at the ‘end times’ is based upon ethnicity. I keep telling them Gogmagot comes into the Bible through the Phoenicians who heard of the tale of the British Islands from the Trojans. they also believe despite all evidence to the contrary that the ‘world’ was created in 4000BC and in 6 days and absolutely refuse to accept anything scientific and people who do not accept that viewpoint are therefore ‘not saved’ and do not belong in the church.

  107. Hi, Jim can you please do me a big favor and delete my message 510 in the Pastor Boy coy review? thanks

  108. Alex,

    I read about your situation and I am really sorry to hear about your experiences. I just had a thought. Have you ever considered writing a story in the Visalia local newspaper to expose this abuse? Or how about holding a peaceful demonstration on Sunday right in front of the church with posters and flyers? It seems that you need local exposure to drag Bob from his fox hole.

  109. religion scares the crap out of me, but what would we do without it?

  110. show a picture of you and also where do you live? thanks

  111. Send me your pic and your contact info and I’ll draw you a map.

  112. Hi everyone…just found this site. I have some stories to tell about CCCM. I was saved there in 1979. I had been living on the streets and wasn’t right in the head. I was so blessed to belong to a ‘family” of believers. I had a abusive childhood and was looking for love and acceptance. CCCM was awesome for the most part but I started feeling like I was not as important as the men in the church and it really bothered me since I had been abused a lot by the world. I was hoping to find the love and acceptance that I needed there. There was a definite feeling there at that time… of the men being built up but the women kind of left feeling like they didn’t matter and were not given much attention in teaching, etc. This really started affecting me and I eventually left the church and went to another one that was not as gender focused. I felt better there and was able to flourish in my walk with the Lord. It always bothered me though and I would talk about it a little to people, but mostly people would tell me that my heart was wrong or to adjust my attitude. I knew my heart wasn’t trying to invent something, that what I experienced there was real and so very hurtful to me. I just kept it to myself a lot. I know that God saw the hurt they caused me and I believe He called me out of there to protect me from further harm and then God proceeded to heal me of the hurts. I don’t like to talk about people but I think that Pastors who are hurting people should be examined and exposed for the wrongs because so many new believers are affected by them.

  113. I reviewed most of the previosu comments when visiting this page a couple months ago, but not since, nor today. Nonetheless, I’ll add a few comments, now that Chuck Smith’s memorial at Anaheim’s Honda Center is tomorrow. It was curious to me that on the last Sunday that he preached a couple weks ago, he made a comment seemingly not connected to the rest of his sermon – ignorance of the law is no excuse. So at the end, he hopped right into bed with a lying, criminal government which holds us good little citizens to every aspect of their law, while they run rampant in monstrous illegalities. I remember that just a few years ago – about 40 years too late – Chuck finally made some comments in a sermon against the Vietnam War (I did 21/2 years overseas during Nam). Yahoo. I know God used him, as God uses others even with their imperfections. What can I say? Someone once told me about this phenomenon, “swallow the meat and spit out the bones”. Well, in real life scenarios like that, you can choke TO DEATH before swallowing anything! Too much here to discuss briefly. Glad he helped multitudes of hippies, though here, too, I have had thoughts. If he is Papa Chuck to them, what about their own World War II generation Papas? I mean, OK you have a 21 y/o son, are you going to be overjoyed that, after walking through the streets of Laguna Beach naked on LSD and being an all-around mushhead, he has finally hooked up with papa Chuck? Yes and No, No and yes? Gotta go. Don’t take these comments beyod their intent, which I am not able to define here in a way that would calm all my concerns. See yáll.

  114. If you think this abuse is limited to just CC on the west coast, you might want to look into the abuse incidents which have occurred at CC on the east coast, particularly the New York State area, where a CC west transplant was sent to start the new movement because he was in so much trouble on the west coast. He brought it with him and the story just goes on and on…………

  115. I’ve been following your blog for a little while now. While your position seems to be clear, your motive and objective seems fuzzy. Nonetheless, I can understand carrying the scars of abuse throughout life because I’ve been there. I’ve also learned one very important lesson – a lesson that is also very difficult to learn and to apply.

    You have to forgive those who’ve hurt you, unconditionally.

    The burden is not worth carrying throughout life. It will fester and multiply in your heart and mind like a ravenous cancer. It will affect your decision making and cloud your judgement. It will alienate you from others, even when you think that you doing and saying the right things. It will bolster the ones whom you’re trying to crucify. I’m sure that you may already realize at least part of this.

    Let God fight this battle for you. God is unchangeably and faithfully just, and there will come a day when all must reckon with their sins, not in just in body, but by conscience and in that day there will be no denial.

    Don’t let the sins of another cause you to sin. Don’t let the sins of another cause you to do the worst possible thing… not believe in God. Even a partial belief is still disbelief. Don’t give up on the Bible, in the end that’s the one unchangeable document that every believer will be held accountable to. Man can only misinterpret it for selfish reasons. You grew up the son of a preacher, so I won’t patronize you with the all the usual expressions that would follow what I’m trying to say here. I’m sure that you’ve heard them all.

    In my walk with God, I’ve learned one important lesson – humans are despairingly corruptible and vain; therefore, wicked. Not one of us is immune, even those of us who shepherd His flock, or those of us who are among the flock. The quality of your belief should be in the seed, and not the sower. God will ALWAYS cause that seed to grow so long as it is sown in the right place, and we choose where that place will be through.

    Men will always fail, even Godly men. God knows this because he knows the hearts and minds of men. Even the mightiest men of the Bible failed in the worst possible ways, but guess what, Jesus descended through the lineage of these same men because God loves the (repentant) sinner, and God will use even the unrepentant sinner to as a means to his Glory.

    Perhaps I’ve gotten off point a little bit, but nonetheless, I’ve been meaning to say a lot to you.

    Just don’t hold God accountable for the deeds of wicked men, even those, who are the wolves in sheep’s clothing. You will only break yourself if that is indeed what you’re doing. The church is rife with apostasy these days, especially within the leadership. Before you pass judgement -rightfully or not, can you honestly say that you would not fall the corruption of power were you in the same position? Can any of us? Pick your poison. I was once in a great position of status in the sports world, and I know what I did with it.

    Don’t use humanity to measure the word of God. You use the Word to measure humanity. The moment that one realizes this, is the moment that one stops bringing our Lord down to doubt and even denial. God deals harshly with the wicked, even their families and offspring as we know from scripture. Who are we to pontificate about why when we are sinners ourselves?

    Follow God with your heart. Forgive those, as He has forgiven you. Use your hurts to build up those who have been hurt like you, in God’s glorious name. Let God expose the wicked, for He will do so in ways that you never could. You must remember too, that when one seeks to defame another member of the body – rightfully or not, innocents will have their faith destroyed in the wake of the violence. That is not something that anyone will want to answer for because there is no excuse for it.

    Only God knows the extent of the true corruption of the church and He shall deal with it. Christ himself said that when he returns, will he find any faith left on the earth?

    I pray, let yours indeed be found. I pray that He give you the courage and wisdom to do increase in faith through your hurt. Easy it is not, but I don’t imagine that the suffering you have been through has been a breeze either. Mine certainly wasn’t.

    These are wicked and evil times, more so I believe, than in any other point in world history. I do beckon to say that His return draws near. Keep your eyes and ears to heaven and not on the wicked deeds of men. Again, increase in faith. Study the word of God. And let him carry your burden and fight your battle. The weight of the cross will only crush you.

  116. “You have to forgive those who’ve hurt you, unconditionally.”

    God doesn’t forgive unconditionally, unless you are a Universalist.

    Do you believe God forgives without condition? Does everyone go to heaven?

  117. “Let God fight this battle for you. God is unchangeably and faithfully just, and there will come a day when all must reckon with their sins, not in just in body, but by conscience and in that day there will be no denial.”

    That’s Christian* bullshit for doing nothing and putting up with abuse.

    Me having a Cause has helped me deal with the demons (metaphorically, I don’t believe demons are real, just a metaphor) of abuse and gives me something positive to direct those negative feelings toward. It’s something the late child abuse advocate Kelly Clark told me was healthy. Fight against child abuse. Turn the negative into a positive by combatting child abuse in the church.

  118. “Only God knows the extent of the true corruption of the church and He shall deal with it.”

    Seriously, I know you mean well, but this is bullshit, too.

    Do you think God waves a magic wand and sends in the Corruption Fairy to do something?

    No. People need to stand up and take some responsibility. When the Roman Catholic Church was screwing folks over with indulgences, etc. Martin Luther, a total asshole, stood up and stuck his neck out and made a lot of noise and tried to do something about it.

    Christians* often over-mysticize some things. This is one area. It’s not like trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. Abuse and corruption is really simple stuff.

    If you see it, experience it, do something about it. Most don’t care enough. As long as the music is good and the teaching is entertaining and the chairs are comfortable (generalization) then they don’t want to get involved with the dirty side of ‘church’ and as long as they aren’t personally affected by the pastor and church, then they are happy to “leave it to the lord!” etc.

    Others get hurt and are chewed up and spit out and disillusioned, sometimes for life.

    Me personally, it disgusts me and I use what little power I have to try and do something, if none other than raising awareness to the issues and telling my story.

  119. “your motive and objective seems fuzzy.”

    Let me make it crystal clear for you then:

    My goal is to create as much awareness to the issues of church abuse, child abuse and corruption in the church, especially within the Calvary Chapel System of churches, as possible.

    My objective is to warn people to avoid Calvary Chapels or at least to ask questions and not go in uninformed and with only the very positive-only spin side of the Calvary Chapel story.

    My objective is also to pressure Calvary Chapel Association to make some meaningful changes in their Affiliation/Association agreement/contract that they have with their 1500 to 2000 pastors to be official Calvary Chapels.

    CC Association can easily require mandatory child protections in the by-laws, mandatory mediation for CC member/non-member disputes with a CC pastor, mandatory set of rules to deal with accusations of child abuse by a pastor or church staff/rep. etc. etc. Mandatory open finances, at least yearly report, that shows how much money came in and where it went.

  120. meabigbaldguy:

    I like what you said to Alex and it appears as though you are being sincere in encouraging Alex to to keep his eyes upon God and trusting He will take care to right the wrongs committed against him. At the same time, I think that in part your counsel is half baked—meaning that what you have shared is only part of picture pertaining, to abuse, corruption, and forgiveness.

    God does not forgive an unrepentant heart. Neither ought we.
    God has a heart to forgive, so ought we.
    But even though God’s heart is full of grace, mercy, and forgiveness, He is also a Just God and to those who do not repent, well I trust you know the rest.

    It is written that we, as Christians are to judge all things and we are to hold one another to an account and for the unrepentant after going through a process as noted in Matthew, chapter 18, and in 1 Corinthinans 5-6, if that person still refuses to repent, then we are to put that person out from among us, for several reason and specific purposes.

    We are to judge those things that are within the church. God will judge those outside. It seems to me that the “church” has turned this upside down. In this case, Alex is being sued by a stepfather who is also a CC pastor. With an excuse, to my understanding, that he can do this when a Christian is not behaving like a Christian. Now, whether or not, Alex is or is not a Christian, some would like to distract and detract from a far bigger issue to simply wash their hands like Pilate did when Jesus was put before him by the high priest and his cohorts of the Jewish people. Yeah, they wanted to kill, Jesus for speaking the truth and telling them to repent and to get their heart right and to treat the people with far better care than they were, while using the written word to justify what they were doing.

    Alex is a good guy—not perfect, as perfect goes—but that is not the issue. Nor is it is a case of Alex having to forgive anyone—-although many would like to use this as well to distract and detract from standing beside him and being more active in addressing these abuses perpetrated by those already mentioned.

    What the issue is and will remain is what is CC going to do in regard to the harm and destruction perpetrated by those who have attempted to confront these harms, abuses, and corruptible practices. Other than to pray, which we know God hears our prayers, what, as a Christian has the written word told us to do in exposing evil and not participate in them, passively or actively.

    When taking a passive stance, we enable these things to continue. I would risk saying that you know this, given your ability to write as well as you do. So, why would you even think or rather fall short in your counsel to Alex by telling him to just trust that God will handle it in His way, when in fact, it is through His very own people, He has told us to speak up and to not tolerate such corruption and abuse among us?

    So, in part, your words were of wise counsel, however fell ever so short in giving the full counsel of God. Alex has extended the olive branch to his stepfather and to CC’s affiliated pastor/leadership while following scripture in holding these to an account. At the same time he has been quite diligent in warning and cautioning others using his own experience, the experience of others, and what is written to rock the boat and to hopefully provoke greater concern among the flock and towards those women, children, and yes, even men who have been abused and persecuted by that very leadership that uses God’s word to perpetrate and to protect that which needs to stopped instead.

    To understand the heart of one that have suffered such abuse, one would never tell that person that they need to forgive in such a way that the perpetrator would be permitted to continue in whatever capacity that they hold that enables them to represent God while holding a postiion of power and authority over others. That mindset is not biblical at all, nor will you find one scripture (in light of the entire word of God) that would ever confirm this. We are to stand against that which would corrupt, abuse, subjugate, and oppressed. We are to love mercy, to do justice, and to walk humbly. At no time are we to simply to forgive and to act as though nothing had happened and sing kum bai yah, in the midst of such evil being perpetrated by those who lead, nor by those who are supposedly being led by them.

    It has always struck me as being rather ironic when people will say to the abused, “just keep you eyes upon God and don’t judge Him by the behaviors of others.” Then wonder why it is that this person’s faith has been shaken and is questioning many things, including the written word. Ironically, what this does is further victimize the abuse, making it seem as though it is still them that is responsible in “getting over it, by just letting go, and letting God.”

    Yet standing right in front of them is a person who claims to be a Christian who does nothing other than to say, “just give it to God, and yeah, don’t forget, you hae to forgive them to, if you want to be forgien yourselves”

    This is the laziest, most passive, and ungodly thing that a Christian can do and say. Not to say, it is not ever appropriate, but to say, that this mindset, more often than none serves to excuse that Christian in remaining passive, thinking they have done something to somehow help the abused to “move on” with their life, while believing they have been diligent in keeping the victim from leaving the “fold” to speak.

    What needs to be understood that by doing so, they are ignoring the church and Christian’s responsibility in being far more active in standing with this person who has been abused to confront these things that we all know are taking place within our so called churches. Jesus picked up the cross and bore it, and likewise we are to do so, fighting against corruption and abuse and not participating in it by going along with it by being silent or silenced by those who perpetrate such things. Not fall asleep and forgetting what we are not to tolerate amongst us. But no, we would put more emphasis on the things that are committed by those in the world, rather than to apply church discipline that does lead to repentance and protect us those most vulnerable to this type of leadership in the home and church. But we will distract by discrediting Alex and this blog that was created for the specific purpose of exposing these things.

    Then have the audacity to make this a question about if or if not Alex is a Christian?

  121. Clarification: Paragraph 6: 1st sentance

    What the issue is and will remain is what is CC going to do in regard to the harm and destruction REPORTED by those who have attempted to confront these harms, abuses, and corruptible practices.

  122. Linda, very well put and thank you.

  123. “God doesn’t forgive unconditionally…”

    That’s entirely false. God does unconditionally forgive those who accept his forgiveness. My statement was addressed to believers, not universally. You’ve taken it out of context.

    “God does not forgive an unrepentant heart. Neither ought we.”

    This is entirely unscriptural. The Bible says that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. An unrepentant heart implies one who has previously been convicted by God. The blasphemy comes at the point to where it is already to late to repent. You show me where scripture explicitly says that we ought not to forgive.

    If you want to raise awareness about the abuse and corruption in the church, that’s fine. It needs to be done. But in the end, are you doing it for His glory? Are you trying to vindicate yourself only? Is merely pointing out the problem, going to really help anyone?

    If you want to announce the sin that is within the church, and invite others to chime in, then perhaps you should also direct people to places where to where they can seek help. In fact, I dare suggest that the focus should be more focused on the latter than the former. Martin Luther did point out the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, but he also had a real solution too.

    God will indeed deal with the corruption in the church. There’s nothing “mystical” about this, nor will there be any “wand-waving”. But it will all be done his way, on his terms, and in his timing. Rest assured, it will most certainly be done.

    Being passive is also not what I’m advocating, although you apparently believe so. Taking your hurts to God and letting him fight this battle should also not be considered as passive, and is entirely scriptural. I’ve been abused to, not by someone in a church, but by someone close to me. You’ve suffered both. But what’s the difference in the end? We are both left to live with it for the rest of our lives.

    I’ve chosen to leave my burden at the feet of Christ, and since that day, I’ve not suffered over it anymore. Why should I? Why should you or anyone else? Yes, that was one of the most difficult things that I’ve ever had to do, and I’m glad that I did.

    Other people still love the person that hurt me. I once aimed to raise awareness, and after a certain point, I only ended up hurting them and alienating myself. If one continues to raise accusations, things will go from good-intended to just being perceived in the end as outright bashing; especially, if you’re not offering a productive outlet for counsel. So far, I’ve seen no counsel here, only the choir preaching to the choir.

    Look, I believe that what you say happened to you did, and that those despicable things were perpetrated by the people whom you accuse. I can relate to the position that your in because I’ve been there. I’ve walked down a similar road.

    My admonishment doesn’t change. Though it may seem laughable to you and others, to me it matters not. I’ll say it again, let God fight this battle. Remember what you’re up against… who you’re up against. Those men (and women) will one day have a lot to answer for, but not you or anyone else. But they will have to answer FOR you. “To whom much is given, much is expected.” The fact that these people shepherd God’s flock, places an even more extraordinary burden upon their heads.

    I’m on your side and I shall continue to pray for you, for the riddance of the evil that is in the church, and for a swift return of our Lord. Only then will all this madness end!

  124. Matthew was good enough to share the very first statement that Jesus wanted us to know:

    “Repent and believe.”

    Also, as for being unconditionally forgiven and blaspheming the Holy Spirit,

    Would you not agree that when one refuses to repent that they are not only lying to the Holy Spirit but also blaspheming Him as well?

    How many times does scripture tells us to repent or suffer the consequences of an unrepentant heart that leads to death and eternal hellfire.

    Finally, without repentance there can be no forgiveness and without forgiveness there is no salvation, regardless how much person say they believe but then leads a lifestlye that give lip service to God only. It is a false conversion at best.

    But if we confess our sins and forsake them, then He will forgive us, cleansing from all unrighteousness.

    Sorry, guy–my counsel to you is to get back into the word and apply it accordingly. Your last comment suggested that:

    “If you want to announce the sin that is within the church, and invite others to chime in, then perhaps you should also direct people to places where to where they can seek help.”

    What an absolute putdown and denial of our responsibility as a Christian to do just what we are doing. How often have I heard or read about a Pastor telling a victim to file for a divorce or to get counseling, instead of doing what the church is called to do in holding an abuser to an account. Telling any victim that by pursuing this to expose the evil committed against them is just another form of victimization. What more, telling them that other people might love the person who harmed them and to pursue this course could hurt them is making the victim responsible for causing further harm??? Exactly what camp are you out of and since when should we be afaid that we will be alienated or isolated from those that the abuser have already alienated and isolated us from?

    Thanks, but no thanks for the counsel. It sounds really out of order and perhaps even a bit protective towards those who abuse and lead or rather mislead others into believing that its’ okay to keep silence knowing that such things are have and are being perpetrated. For the sake of the Cross and the shed blood of Jesus, I adjure you to back up and think twice about what you are suggesting then using scripture in the form that you are in justifying this type of counseling.

    Better stated this quote:

    http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/isrepentancenecessaryforsalvation.shtml

    “It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to “believe” on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.

    The Scriptures speak of “repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached “repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was “repent” (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3).

    If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert “believes” and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a “worker of iniquity.” Look at the warning of Scripture: “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth” (1 John 1:6). The Scriptures also say, “He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy” (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who “repents” (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.”

    Quite frankly, I am appalled at what you think to be good counsel towards those harmed by those in the church. Nothing that you wrote is laughable as far as I am concern. I take you to be quite serious. However, I also think you missed the mark terribly this time and would do better to pull up your sleeves and climb in the ditch with the rest of us, to be counted among those who would do better with your support rather than what you have presented thus far.

    Like I stated: half baked, just enough to get me to listen then think for a minute that I would climb aboard and walk away from those the difficult task of exposing what needs to be uncovvered in a system that enables the many types of abuses that have been perpetrated as a result of a structure that only seres its leadership and not the body of Christ as well.

    Not hardly—-I would suggest you reconsider what types of friends you have that would have be hurt if you exposed the person who did you wrong. Love has nothing to do with it. You don’t enable an abuser, nor do you permit their victim be be alienated or isolated, even if the wrong doer is your friend. Love, does not cover up nor leave the victim in a strangle hold of making them responsible for the hurt they may feel if this wrong doer is held to an account. That is what is called codependency. It is part and parcel to what an abuser will use by using them as proxies to keep the victim silent. Forgiveness without repentance only enable this peson to continue on in their abusie behaviors. It is not an act of love on your part, nor its an act of love on your friends’ part. It is sick and most dysfunctional in terms of the type of abuse and corruption that have been mentioned on the blog.

    So no, I’m not laughing at all about what you shared.

  125. Whoops, did it again–let me revise so it will go through:

    Matthew was good enough to share the very first statement that Jesus wanted us to know:

    “Repent and believe.”

    Also, as for being unconditionally forgiven and blaspheming the Holy Spirit,

    Would you not agree that when one refuses to repent that they are not only lying to the Holy Spirit but also blaspheming Him as well?

    How many times does scripture tells us to repent or suffer the consequences of an unrepentant heart that leads to death and eternal hellfire.

    Finally, without repentance there can be no forgiveness and without forgiveness there is no salvation, regardless how much person say they believe but then leads a lifestlye that give lip service to God only. It is a false conversion at best.

    But if we confess our sins and forsake them, then He will forgive us, cleansing from all unrighteousness.

    Sorry, guy–my counsel to you is to get back into the word and apply it accordingly. Your last comment suggested that:

    “If you want to announce the sin that is within the church, and invite others to chime in, then perhaps you should also direct people to places where to where they can seek help.”

    What an absolute putdown and denial of our responsibility as a Christian to do just what we are doing. How often have I heard or read about a Pastor telling a victim to file for a divorce or to get counseling, instead of doing what the church is called to do in holding an abuser to an account. Telling any victim that by pursuing this to expose the evil committed against them is just another form of victimization. What more, telling them that other people might love the person who harmed them and to pursue this course could hurt them is making the victim responsible for causing further harm??? Exactly what camp are you out of and since when should we be afaid that we will be alienated or isolated from those that the abuser have already alienated and isolated us from?

    Thanks, but no thanks for the counsel. It sounds really out of order and perhaps even a bit protective towards those who abuse and lead or rather mislead others into believing that its’ okay to keep silence knowing that such things are have and are being perpetrated. For the sake of the Cross and the shed blood of Jesus, I adjure you to back up and think twice about what you are suggesting then using scripture in the form that you are in justifying this type of counseling.

    Better stated this quote:

    http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/isrepentancenecessaryforsalvation.shtml

    “It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to “believe” on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts ch. 16:31; Romans ch. 10:9). However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah ch. 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians ch. 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.

    The Scriptures speak of “repentance unto life” (Acts ch.11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached “repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts ch. 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was “repent” (Matthew ch.4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew ch. 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke ch. 13:3).

    If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert “believes” and yet is not saved (Luke ch. 8:13); he remains a “worker of iniquity.” Look at the warning of Scripture: “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth” (1 John ch.1:6). The Scriptures also say, “He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy” (Proverbs ch. 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who “repents” (Luke ch. 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.”

    Quite frankly, I am appalled at what you think to be good counsel towards those harmed by those in the church. Nothing that you wrote is laughable as far as I am concern. I take you to be quite serious. However, I also think you missed the mark terribly this time and would do better to pull up your sleeves and climb in the ditch with the rest of us, to be counted among those who would do better with your support rather than what you have presented thus far.

    Like I stated: half baked, just enough to get me to listen then think for a minute that I would climb aboard and walk away from those the difficult task of exposing what needs to be uncovvered in a system that enables the many types of abuses that have been perpetrated as a result of a structure that only seres its leadership and not the body of Christ as well.

    Not hardly—-I would suggest you reconsider what types of friends you have that would have be hurt if you exposed the person who did you wrong. Love has nothing to do with it. You don’t enable an abuser, nor do you permit their victim be be alienated or isolated, even if the wrong doer is your friend. Love, does not cover up nor leave the victim in a strangle hold of making them responsible for the hurt they may feel if this wrong doer is held to an account. That is what is called codependency. It is part and parcel to what an abuser will use by using them as proxies to keep the victim silent. Forgiveness without repentance only enable this peson to continue on in their abusie behaviors. It is not an act of love on your part, nor its an act of love on your friends’ part. It is sick and most dysfunctional in terms of the type of abuse and corruption that have been mentioned on the blog.

    So no, I’m not laughing at all about what you shared.

  126. Ephesians: chapter 4:32:

    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

    Jesus told us to repent and believe. That is to confess and turn away, walking in obedience.
    Without this we cannot have fellowship with Him. Their is no reconciliation without repentance even though we or Jesus may be all too ready to forgive upon the evidence of a repentance heart. Lip service just doesn’t measure up—-particulary when we are not God and cannot take the risk of being harm even more, not by those who abuse others in the way that we have been abused, betrayed, persecuted, then cut off, alienated, isolated, then discredited and slandered in order to cover up and to continue doing what we only know only too well what this means.

    To remain silent is the same as committing these things ourselves. That would be most grievious to the Holy Spirit and all that is holy and righteous in His sight.

  127. Linda,

    My name is Pete. Points noted and understood.

    Where you come off believing that I’m advocating silence, is ill-conceived. What I’m not advocating is gossip, and that is what most of what I’ve seen here seems to amount to.

    A.G.’s intentions may be good, but all I see is bitterness centered around a few people that’s driving a crusade that’s seemingly against anyone affiliated with those few people. Although those people may very well be guilty of what they’re being accused of, to expose it in the manner that it is here is dangerous and has the potential to hurt others.

    What would you say if someone who is spiritually struggling, or has a fledging faith came across this site, read the content here, and decided that we’re no different than the rest of the world?

    I guarantee you that is what this site is doing to many out there.

    Where is the testimony? Where is the counsel that should follow the testimony? There’s no admonishment or edification anywhere in these pages, but only a totem-pole of gossip followed by cheer squad of individuals.

    Where is the admonishment and the edification? These pages are gloriously lacking of any.

    If this site purports to be all about accountability, then to accountable to whom? A.G.?

    You’ve accused my counsel of being “half-baked”. I contend that my counsel just isn’t what wants to be heard in this circle. My faith and conscience before God cannot and will not allow such unwise counsel to be given.

    I really do pray for A.G and anyone else hurt by parental, or any kind of abuse. Thats something that I would not wish upon the children of my worst foe. But to carry on with this kind of bitterness, cloaked in “justice and accountability”, isn’t what we’re called to do. I’ll say yet for a third time, that we’re called to leave these things at the feet of Christ. He carried the cross already, it would only crush us if we tried. “Seek first the kingdom of God….

    … And these things will be added to you.”

    I’ve said what needs to be said and take my leave now. God bless you all!

  128. meabigbaldguy
    There is very clear places in this blog that accountably has been suggested…and this accountabiligy should be to the members of the individual CC churches. The NT is clear about having elder boards and methods by which individuals (leadership and members) are held accountable. NOT the MOSES model. What I read on this blog is case after case where individuals attempt to do this and are thrown under the bus by CC leaders.

    Meanbigbaldguy… you are worried about what meassage that this blog sends out to the world.. well, I can tell you that I have discussed the statements of CC leadership that one should not “touch his annointed” and the “Moses model” with a number of NT and OT schollars, and they think those statements verge on Blasphemy… in my book, going around saying “don’t touch God’s annointed” and I am “Moses” and make all of the end times predictions that do NOT come true is sending a worse message to the world about Christianity than people on this blog expressing their hurts, and other Christians saying that they are correct in feeling hurt!!!

  129. Jeff said, “going around saying “don’t touch God’s annointed” and I am “Moses” and make all of the end times predictions that do NOT come true is sending a worse message to the world about Christianity than people on this blog expressing their hurts, and other Christians saying that they are correct in feeling hurt!!!”

    ^^^ Great point.

  130. Open your mind and heart Pete – you obviously haven’t ‘heard’ what is being said here and its laughable to speak of ‘bitterness’ – it seems to me when someone isn’t ‘listening with ears to hear’ their conclusion is that we are ‘bitter’. lol——- It did sound like Chuck Smith was ‘bitter’ towards Alex when he called him out from the pulpit —– oh my gosh!

  131. It never ceases to amaze me that “meabigbaldguy”and others always end up with the word “gossip” somewhere in their posts.
    If I say someone walked off with the tithing money I am gossiping.if I say I intend to call the police I am told to leave it to G-d,vengeance is mine says the Lord and then I am told as a good christian it is my duty to report it if not I am just gossiping.
    “Exposing in this manner is to potentially hurt others”
    “This is not what we are “called “to do”

    I think I will be be a little more frank than Linda most of you are “half-baked”

    What others are we hurting and what were you specifically called to do?

    Hundreds were hurt by CC they don’t count.???
    Are we “called” to sit back and let someone else take the hit so we don’t hurt our middle class christian sensibilities?
    “My conscience before G-d cannot allow…..”
    Believe me G-d is up there saying “Do I have to do every thing around here!”

    Its the whole christian cop out.when the going gets tough let’s have a look in the bible and pick out the passages that enable me to sit on my butt and do nothing.

    Of course the day might come when they do it to you???

    In the holocaust museum in Jerusalem there is a quote from a German pastor which goes something like this

    When they took the gypsies I didn’t complain.
    When they took the homosexuals I didn’t complain.
    When they took the sick and weak I didn’t complain.
    When they took the Jews I didn’t complain.
    When they took the clergy there was no one left to complain.

  132. Okay, Pete (meabigbaldguy), you have posed several questions while making several statements on what your opinions are regarding the intentions of the heart regarding those who comment on this blog, as well as how it may affect others, as they may be struggling or weak in the faith. Here is my response:

    First, here is what you have accused us of here:

    1. “I am not advocating gossip, ant that is what most of what I’ve seen here seems to amount to.
    2. “Where do you come off believing that I’m advocating silence.
    3. “All I see is bitterness centered around a few people that’s driving a crusade”.
    4. “Driving a crusade against anyone affiliated with those few people [accused of wrong]”
    5. “what they are being accused of, to expose it in the manner that is here is dangerous”
    6. “has the potential to hurt others”
    7. “if someone who is spiritually struggling, or has a fledgin faith came across this site, read the content here, and decided that we’re no different than the rest of the world?”
    8. “I guarantee you that is what this site is doing to many out there.”
    9. “Where is the testimony?”
    10. “Where is the counsel that should follow this testimony”
    11. “There is no admonishment or edification anywhere in these pages.”
    12. “Only a totem-pole of gossip followed by cheer squad of individuals
    13. “Where is the admonishment and the edification?” [stated twice]
    14. “These pages are gloriously lacking of any.”
    15. “Where is t he admonishment and the edification?” (Stated third time]
    16. If this site purports to be all about accountability, then to accountable to whom, A.G.?”
    17. “I contend that my counsel just isn’t what wants to be heard in this circle.”
    18. “My faith and conscience before God cannot and will not allow such unwise counsel to be given.”
    19. I really do pray for A.G. and anyone else hurt . . . . That’s something that I would not wish upon the children of my worst foe.”
    20. “But to carry on with this king of bitterness, cloaked in “justice and accountability isn’t what we’re called to do. “
    21. “I’ll say yet for a third time, that we’re called to leave these things at the feet of Christ.”
    22. “He carried the cross already, it would only crush us if we tried.”
    23. “Seek first the kingdom of God, And these things will be added unto you.

    That’s quite a list that was able to be take from quoting you directly, Pete.
    However:

    1. You base your counsel upon faulty assumptions and half baked scripture references.

    a. You assume we are bitter and therefore, our purpose and the workings of our hearts are such that our intentions our ill founded and out of the will of the Lord.
    b. You assume that what we share is gossip.
    c. You assume that people who weak or struggling in their faith will be harmed due to the assumptions you have made in “a” and” b”.
    d. Then you claim that you can “guarantee” that people like this are being hurt as a direct result of what you believe to be gossip and bitterness. What camp are you from anyway? If anything, these will be warned about what to look for in a healthy vs. an unhealthy church. Your reading comprehension is a bit skewed, along with an inability, perhaps to move beyond what you have falsely assumed. Just why did you comment and really on the behalf of whom? And in in whose name, did you say? Certainly, not the Lord, Jesus Christ.

    2. You also base your counsel upon the idea that or belief that we ought not be accountable to one another, nor when abuse is committed by those in leadership that when we know or have been informed of such abuses, then although we may be affiliated and a Christian, we have no business taking these things to the church when the leadership has refused to hear.

    3. It appears that your solution is to keep silent and set it “before the cross.” Because it would:

    a. Hurt someone who is reading this blog and may be weak or struggling in the faith.

    b. And since we are bitter (your opinion) then we are being irresponsible and creating a potential for great harm to be done against this type of person that might read such things.

    4. You don’t read very well, do you, for if you did — you would know that bitterness and gossip is not, what has kept this blog together—not by a long shot. If you really have read through all the comments, you would know that what has kept this blog together is the fact that as a result of the corruptible practices and abuses committed against those who have reported such things is what unifies us, along with knowing God’s Word and wanting to move forward in what we believe is need to stop these types of things from happening to others.

    5. As for testimony, edification, and admonishment, you really don’t read very well, do you. Either that, you are choosing to see and hear what you want to see in hear that aligns with the false assumptions that you have made about us and the purpose of this blog.

    6. Sorry, in Christ I can do all things for He strengthens me to do His word and to walk in obedience, exposing the truth, not participating in evil, by remaining silent, passive, or telling any abused person that to do otherwise must mean that “they are bitter, gossiping, and or putting those weak in the faith or struggling in danger or at risk.

    Nice Try, Pete: Don’t even match up with the written Word, however.

    Pete, seriously —- are you really going to stand before the Lord and tell him that although you heard the cries of the abused, battered, betrayed, and persecuted, but did nothing other than tell them to lay all at the cross. I can’t help but say that this type of mindset is what enables such things to go on in the church and somehow suppose to make victims feel bad about having the courage to step and speak the truth in the name of the Lord. Have you ever heard of the Holocaust?

    1 in every 3 women, including the wives of Pastors in the church have or is currently a victim of domestic violence. Along with these are their children. But hey, let’s just move on and fall down before the Lord, giving a good witness, a good testimony, of what, Pete? That’s a smokescreen and that is the most vile of all abuses perpetrated with the church to expect victims of any type to cover up, supposedly not bringing a “ill report” because it just might cause people not to want to attend or support the “leadership.”

    Pete, listen—can you hear them. Can you see them. I can, and so can others who have shared and come to this blogsite: I’m sorry that you are so blind, and deaf, and without that which would let you know that your assumptions and conclusions are faulty, base on your inability to hear and to see, regardless of what we all know to be true.

  133. Amen, Nadav:

    ‘Of course the day might come when they do it to you???

    In the holocaust museum in Jerusalem there is a quote from a German pastor which goes something like this

    When they took the gypsies I didn’t complain.
    When they took the homosexuals I didn’t complain.
    When they took the sick and weak I didn’t complain.
    When they took the Jews I didn’t complain.
    When they took the clergy there was no one left to complain.

    Never forget—

  134. Many current, American, evangelical “movements” ( not just CC, I have seen others) measure their success ( dare I say worship) by the number of followers and $$$ coming in. In many ways it is American capitalism/business thinking applied to Christianity. Anything, or any one that threatens this success will be attached…. Just the method of attach will use Christianese..
    The NT clearly states if you have been wronged, confront the brother that wronged you. If he/she does not admit it, get a group together and confront them. While I can not speak for all of the wronged on this blog, many of the stories involve going to the leadership, and the leadership blows them off, or worse, attaches them. This blog is the modern version of getting a group together.
    CC clearly violates these NT principles… Apparently, the verse-by-verse approach skips over these basic NT church structure verses..
    I might also add that Chuck Smith was clearly wrong in some of his predictions ( prophecies??) of Christ’s second coming… I really like the story of he and his followers waiting on the beach!! In the OT, which CC likes to selectively quote, the characters in the stories were quite harsh on FALSE PROPHETS…

  135. Hay Meanbadbaldguy
    Did you read the sworn, court, testimony of BG’s son against BG that is a link on this blog? Sworn, court testimony is not “gossip”? Do you think making your own son touch your “junk” is OK? Either the testimony is true or false.. that graphic of stuff can not be interrupted away..

    Had CC dealt with this stuff when it was brought to them, instead of blowing it off, it would never have come to this blog!!!
    I do not buy the CC leadership argument that statues of limitations gets them off the hook since BG can not be legally prosecuted. Churches remove people for much more “minor” offenses all the time, including not towing specific beliefs. Even CC gets rid of Calvinist… So, Meanbadbaldguy, is being a Calvinist worst than being a CC pastor that has sworn court testimony against him saying he does DISGUSTING things to his kids…. So, we as followers of Christ’s teaching supposed to look the other way? Lets just say, if a pervert did something like that to my boys, I do give a $%^ who they are, I would put a stop to it.. the same for a bunch of the other stuff that has been on this BLOG. In my church, we would not let leaders get away with any of this stuff. But then, again, we are not a Mega Church, so I guess we do not have “the Spirit”????

  136. Matthew 18:15-20

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    If Your Brother Sins Against You

    15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[a] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

    So, are CC leaders not our “brothers”?? I guess according to CC leaders, and what I read on this BLOG, they act like they are not (i.e they are self appointed “Moses” and “G$d annoited”). I have read of many cases on this blog where more than one person has gone to a CC leader, and expressed their potentially being hurt by actions of CC leadership, and the leadership does not follow the above scriptures. Even Chuch Smith’s “threatening” the Christianity Today journalist that G$d will punish him for raising questions of accountability in the CC is not following the above verses…

  137. You know Pete Rome is burning and you are worried about upsetting the arsonist.
    The day is coming and it won’t be long when all the wrongs of calvary will be proven to be true and you are going to look amazingly stupid.Instead of helping your brother or sister you stood on the sidelines and did nothing.That would really upset my faith my conscience and how I wanted to look in the eyes of G-d.

  138. Pete said, “What I’m not advocating is gossip, and that is what most of what I’ve seen here seems to amount to.”

    Pete, I’m no longer a biblical literalist or inerrantist, but if I was/when I was, your definition of “gossip” doesn’t square with the bible’s literal definition according to the greek and hebrew.

    You have adopted an extra-biblical modern day definition of that word.

    Here’s the proof: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/dont-gossip-suffer-it-for-christ-but-what-does-scripture-say-simply/

  139. What has caused me to no longer be a biblical literalist is partly the very reason Pete examples. Folks make the bible say whatever they want it to say. No one is a true literalist, none.

    …that and the fact that the Genesis account as a scientific explanation of origins and existence is laughable.

    …that and the fact that from a moral/ethical standpoint, “good” and “evil” have changed dramatically from the Old Testament to the New Testament to today…which disproves the “god never changes” thesis.

  140. Even the “definition of marriage” has changed dramatically from the Old Testament until Paul’s qualification in the late New Testament.

  141. To suggest or advocate that the bible should not be taken literally, is precisely false. In fact, it’s an apostasy to believe so. It was the Word of God that spoke this world into existence. It is the Word that will, and has since judged the world for it’s wickedness. It’s the Word of God that became flesh, in the form of our Lord, Jesus Christ. It’s the Word of God, that resurrected Christ. It’s the Word of God that has, and always will bring the wicked to repentance and into salvation, and henceforth God’s kingdom.

    Partial belief, is still disbelief.

    “Folks make the bible say whatever they want it to say.”

    Yes, and it is a sin do to so. God’s Word is the only perfect and unchangeable thing throughout the existence of mankind. People can vainly say and do what they want to with it, but it does not change the accountability to it.

    Even CC’s leadership, for all of its blatant failures and hypocrisies, will one day have to reconcile themselves to the very Word of God that they teach.

    “…that and the fact that from a moral/ethical standpoint, “good” and “evil” have changed dramatically from the Old Testament to the New Testament to today…which disproves the “god never changes” thesis.”

    You’re arguing that because the very nature of what’s considered good and evil in this world today vs. ten years ago, or even a thousand years ago, “disproves” God unchanging nature?
    You are tragically wrong, my friend. And that is an apostate belief. What is seen as good and evil IN THIS WORLD is decided upon by sinful men. That does not change, in God’s eyes, what those really are at their very core – good and evil – and it will all be measured against the Word of God.

    “Even the “definition of marriage” has changed dramatically from the Old Testament until Paul’s qualification in the late New Testament.”
    Yes, and for the better mankind finally had gotten that right… at least for a moment. Although, in today’s world marriage itself appears to be more of value to sodomites than to the church. Plurality was never God’s intention, and this is clear from Gen 2:24. One who has discernment will understand that while the Patriarchs, Solomon, and David practiced plurality it was never condoned to by God. In fact, they all suffered judgement in their families for it. This is evident by the discord that was sown in their respective households. That judgment is still evident today. Solomon wrote an entire book decrying the vanity involved with plurality and it’s sexually sinful modes.

    “…that and the fact that the Genesis account as a scientific explanation of origins and existence is laughable.”
    Let’s take this one down to your level for a moment. Laughable as opposed to what? Evolution? Speculative “science”? Laughable is modern conclusion that life begat itself at random from slime in a pond. Laughable is the explanation that humans ascended from primates. The missing link is missing, because it’s just not there. If you intend to argue Miller’s experiments as your proof, then please do note that Miller’s experiments were performed in highly manipulated conditions. In the end, they might have produced a protein but it contained just 2 of the required 50 or so amino acids necessary for life. The rest amounted to lipids. What’s more, it gloriously lacked any sign of RNA, which the very scientific law of biogenesis states is only begotten through life. Several decades later, scientists labor tremendously to find anything useful from Miller’s experiments.

    The Bible tells me that God created the universe and I believe it wholeheartedly. Science, real science, only highlights His glorious processes for it. Even Sir Isaac Newton, and even Renee Descartes, wholly understood these revelations. Hey, I build stuff that we hurl into space that study the universe. I make my living off of it, and let me tell you, God’s glory and his signature are everywhere.

    Much of modern “science” for this reason, has been reduced to pure speculation. The why was given to us through the Word. Science should really only give us the how. Instead, wicked men have turned it into a mode that functions to hate God. People who believe this, I contend, have a faith that is greater than mine.

    “Folks make the bible say whatever they want it to say.”
    In your own logic, that’s exactly what you’re doing.

    Standing idle, I’m not. I study the word of God and bring all things to His feet. My family, my hurts, my anger, my worries, my sins… even the burdens of those who have hurt me. I rebuke those who preach false things. I rebuke hypocrites. Rome may be burning, but by His mercy I will not burn with it. Neither will I attempt to bring down that which has already been judged. God commands me to love Him, seek Him, trust Him, forgive, pray, and proclaim his Word. In doing those, I find comfort…. no matter how impossible any of those may (only) seem at times.

  142. “God’s Word is the only perfect and unchangeable thing throughout the existence of mankind.”

    False and demonstrably so. You are peddling intellectual dishonesty. You make statements that are verifiably false and claim them to be true.

  143. “God’s Word is the only perfect and unchangeable thing throughout the existence of mankind.”

    The bible in the OT commands, by God, through Levitical law to Moses (you assert above) that Slavery is permitted and ruled righteous by law.

    Same goes for Concubines (sex slaves) and same goes for executing your children with stones if they are unruly, etc. Many more barbaric examples.

    Yet, today, you would call those practices “evil” and “unrighteous”…yet you say “God’s word NEVER CHANGES!”

    Well, something changed. Stuff went from “good” to “evil”…yet you say it never changes.

    Why did God tell Moses is was good and righteous to own slaves and execute your children with stones…yet now you would tell me it’s evil to do today if nothing changes?

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