Pastor Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale: Good, Bad or Ugly?
Pastor Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. What is your opinion of Pastor Bob? Does he model the Servant Leader that Jesus talks about? What has been your experience at CCFTL?
If you attended Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale and were under the “authority” and leadership of Pastor Bob Coy and you want to share your personal story, good, bad or indifferent…here’s your chance.
What was your experience with Pastor Bob? Did he model the Servant Leader that Jesus Christ talks about? Or, something else…
If you could say something to Bob Coy, what would it be? What should he change about how he pastors and acts as an employer, etc?
You people have too much time on your friggin hands. Looking for reconciliation or war? Alex is cruisin’ 4 a bruisin’. Take this page down man! Leave Bob Coy out of this mess you have goin’ on with Bob Grenier. Oh how misery loves company. Coy is not Grenier or Ries. CCFTL is large and successful, Bob Coy is very powerful and he’ll kick your butt and anyone else trying to expose him. The Moses Model is what it is so why don’t you losers just accept that, move on and stop the BS about a 3-step Matthew method which goes contrary the Moses Model and does not apply to CC pastors.
Let me just say Bob Coy didn’t dodge a bullet, he won the sex abuse suit and it really doesn’t matter how because when CCFTL is at war, all is fair in love and war, anything goes, nothing is out of bounds and he has boat loads of resources and influence to get the job done with full support. Also, lay off the judge, may her soul rest in peace; she was under authority to her pastor which is lacking on this forum. With a church that big and successful I double dare anyone question if the hand of God is upon that ministry? This site is satan’s tool and Bob Coy will not stand for it. You have to come up against us with dodomas power or back off. Take this site down already. Enough!
mean2bnice, LOL.
Haven’t heard much about Bob Coy other than what you’ve said on here. I’ll have to look into that case more…and now that Coy’s got his own page, we’ll see if a ton of people show up who have been hurt.
Usually, where there’s smoke there’s fire.
So far, Bob Grenier’s got a ton of smoke.
If Coy’s got major issues, I imagine people will end up on here and express them.
mean2bnice’s comment is its own piece of biting satire.
No reference is made to Bob Coy’s godliness or servant leadership. No, instead the focus is on how Coy is powerful enough to “kick your butt.” Further, the whole thing is predicated on the non-biblical, distinctly pagan notions: 1) all is fair in love and war, 2) might makes right, and 3) outward success is a sign of God’s favor.
mean2bnice is thus a perfect example of how the CC leadership model leads to malformed disciples who will gladly disregard Jesus’ words in Matthew 18 to stick up for their favorite pastor. Wow.
I think we know who the “tool” is here.
His comment is too over the top to be legit. I certainly hope this is not the way that church functions. Seems like a reality show comment.
mean2bnice said: “Looking for reconciliation or war?”
“You have to come up against us with dodomas power or back off.”
Sounds like you’re looking for war is that right? You come with “dodomas power” and I come in the name of the Lord.
Dodo = sh*t and mas = more
This is what you bring to the fight? More Sh*t?
I agree with Wide Awake. Mean2bnice is so over the top, that it looks more like a person saying this is how the Coy camp experience has been for them … and maybe others …
I agree the comment does sound over the top but not totally. We went there and left not soon enough. My wife and I were former attendees and met a lot of people who seem unusually enamored and idolatrous about their pastor. For instance, we sat next to 1 lady who drove all the way from south Miami (more than an hour away) to attend CCFTL and she didn’t speak a lick of English as Spanish was her native language. So we asked her if she wanted the headsets for Spanish translation and she made it clear that she just wanted to hear Bob’s voice and it was no big deal to her that she didn’t understand a word of what he was saying because she was trusting God to speak to her through Bob’s words. It made no sense to us even if you belief in speaking in tongues you still need an interpreter. I could share more stories of people who freaked us out like the guy who attended all 4 weekend services but served at none of them.
But that’s not why we left because we thought the Lord could use us to minister to some of these people. We didn’t like not knowing about the finances and staff member’s salaries. There was a shroud of secrecy when it came to finances other issues. Then when we found out Bob’s salary we nearly fainted. We also like a church with an offertory as we see giving as an act of worship. Our current church has special music during the offering whereas CCFTL has the boxes in the back and don’t have an offering time during the service. Bob likes to say things like “we don’t have a membership and we don’t take an offering” so we can’t be a cult. Seems to me you shouldn’t have to keep reminding people that you’re not a cult if in fact you’re not.
Also as newly weds planning a family soon we didn’t like the fact that our babies would not be blessed in the main sanctuary which is reserved for blessing babies of the pastors relatives and staff members before the congregation proper. It took us a while to figure out that other babies get blessed in a different part of the church by an associate and not before the congregation. The explanation we were given didn’t make sense because the church we’re currently attending is about 2/3 the size of CCFTL and the senior pastor manages to bless all the babies in the main sanctuary before the entire congregation at the weekend services with a power point presentation of pictures of all the babies being blessed. With his method he can bless up to 30 babies per service in the same amount of time it takes Bob Coy to bless 12 or so staff babies.
The “weirdness” factor didn’t sit well with us. No membership, no worshipful offertory, no sanctuary baby blessing for attendees seems like CCFTL’s way of keeping a distance between the leaders and the congregation to ensure no accountability. That’s my take. Seems like this is a CC-wide phenomenon not just CCFTL.
Further, we did not find Bob Coy’s teaching to be all that sound; he’s more a preacher of the gospel than a teaching pastor…
It’s unfortunate the first comment had to be left, and even more unfortunate that it could have been written by 1 of the 10 or so of the seemingly unstable people I met at CCFTL who either had bipolar disorder, adult attention deficity disord, extremely low self esteem/worth, or just plain mean.
In addition, I met many at CCFTL who were strangely enamored by pastor Bob Coy like the guy who when he lost his job and couldn’t afford to give as much but didn’t want to lose the recognition he received from his generous giving resorted to using his credit card to make up the difference then turned to me to help out with the cc bill.
I’m thinking of the 4-service-attending guy mentioned above (or it could be a differnet guy since I knew several people who did that, mostly guys). I recalled asking 1 guy why he went to all the services and he just smiled at me without ever giving me a reply.
I could tell 100s of true stories from the people I met at CCFTL and no there was no sin-sniffing involved. Like the lady on the singles leadership team who I caught reading a very trashy harlequin novel about a love triangle.Turns out she herself was involved in a love triangle with her best friend and a married man who was separated from his wife and attended the singles bible study. She and her best friend were fighting over the guy and I asked her to put herself in the wife’s position and she responded that the marriage was over.This coming from a leader who came to the retreat a day early to pray for us.really irked me. Long story short her best friend ended up marrying the guy and the couple met in a near tragic motorcyle accident. The singles leader woman met another guy on the rebound but CCFTL didn’t approve and wouldn’t marry them….they got married anyway.
Or how about having lunch with another CCFTL leader who said she slept with a guy the night before and wanted advice. I said ” that’s easy, dump him, repent and get saved”. She wanted to know what she was repenting of and looked at me weird when I told her fornication is a sin for Christians.
Or how about the singles worship band member who frequented secular night clubs,, drank and smoked like a chimney.
So what’s the point? Based on my interactions with hundreds of CCFTL attendees, I don’t believe CCFTL’s large number are relective of true conversions. I believe the altar calls are armenian in nature designed to attract people who come forward, leave with a bible and never truly repent. I would say based on my non-scientific, non-sin-sniffing, observations only about 10% are truly saved.
One CCFTL pastor even did a protracted 6-step altar call I’ve never seen before and I’ve been to a wide variety of churches. Yes, 6 steps my friends:
1) Raise your hand
2) Stand to your feet
3) Come forward
4) Bow your heads
5) Repeat after me
6) Go to your left to receive a bible and bible study guide
What’s that about Bob? Seems a little over the top….fraudulent maybe….a type of “altar call evangelism” that rarely produces lasting fruit.
I think Billy Graham said that less than 5% of altar calls are true converts. Then why do it?
“I think Billy Graham said that less than 5% of altar calls are true converts.”
I was generous with the 10%. If I did some sin-sniffing I could prolly get it down to 5% like the guy from CCFTL who put up his 10-yr old pic on match dot com and if I’d sniff around some more I prolly could confirm that he was telling the girls he’s a medical doctor or physical therapist when in fact he was just.a physical therapy assistant. I could tell these stories all day long it ain’t funny.
Having an altar call is not sin but they’re are not supported by scripture and are a deviation from scripture. At Pentecost 3.000 people were saved but not thru an altar call. Ironically, Bob Coy is now ‘teaching’ from the book of Acts. Can’t wait for him to get to the 7 sons of Sceva in chapter 19 about demon possession.
I believe altar calls confuse the physical act of “coming forward” with the spiritual act of “coming to Christ”. Those 2 acts can happen simultaneously, but too often people believe that coming to Christ is going forward and vice-versa.
“Then why do it?”
Sadly, it is due to the desire on the parts of many pastors and churches to report numbers because they see numbers as equal to a successful ministry. Counting large numbers of ‘converts’ is irresistible to pastors like Bob Coy who made the following statement last Sunday:
“….yesterday our leadership team gathered together at the ocean’s edge where the Atlantic Ocean meets Atlantic Blvd…I know that sounds like a large number and it is…325 individual personal lives…touched and changed by Jesus christ not just 325 this past saturday…how many have we baptized this year from January to yesterday..1,387…”
“If you could say something to Bob Coy, what would it be?”
You made the above statement after reading my comments on this blog, didn’t you? Why do you find it so easy to fire back from the pulpit Bob Coy? Are you really saved? I don’t assume anything like just because you’re a pastor with the numbers to show you must be saved. Not.
I don’t attend ccftl but used to watch the live stream and Bob Coy does seem to stress numbers. But I certainly didn’t know about the 5% conversion rate according to Billy Graham. Wonder how he got that figure. Very interesting discussion. I myself came to Christ by friendship evangelism so I can emphatize with the anti-altar call camp.
Stopped watching Coy after the Noah’s curse = black servitude sermon. Most inappropriate imho. Read about that on another page. I have wonderful black employees and affluent black friends. Hard to believe he really feels that way.
Maybe admin could add more CC pages so others don’t feel left out and mean2bnice won’t feel like Coy is being singled out. It’s a lota stuff you have on here. God bless and do take some time to pray as well folks.
Personally I think the person who wrote
“…is very powerful and he’ll kick your butt and anyone else trying to expose him..”
is for this site and trying to make Calvary people look bad so they can rally around and mock. It’s an old atheist trick. The atheist writes a post saying something like this
“God aint gonna put up with you dumm morans he will kill you all because he hates you jerks”.
trying to make Christians look bad so all the atheists can pretend that Christians are ignorant and that they are somehow superior. Then they make snide replies showing how intelligent they are in comparison to their fake Christian post.
This whole thing is ugly and all we are doing here is giving Gods enemies a chance to blaspheme Him. You are not hurting those Calvary guys. Their supporters will defend continue to them and their enemies will continue to attack them. But you are smearing God and Christianity not just by airing others dirty laundry but by your behavior here in your writing.
I believe you this Bob Grenier and the other pastors are sinners. Like all Christians, like all humans. They should not be put up on pedestals and assumed to be holy. The only holiness any of us have is through Gods Grace. I think all Christians are capable of the things you have written here about these guys and worse. Holiness is not a precondition of salvation. We come in as sinners saved by grace and God works in our hearts and changes us in time. Some of the things people have said on here are probably true, some exaggerated, some flat out lies. Some things that they have done and you you don’t even know are probably worse in Gods eyes.
We get your point. You have established some pastors are scum. I’m telling you all humanity is scum needing Jesus. We are all sinners. So why smear God and Christianity?
Because these guys are your enemies? Well if you are Christians shouldn’t you follow the teachings of Christ? In Matthew 5 He said ‘Love your enemies’.
Out of vengeance for all the wrong these guys have perpetrated against you?
‘Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord’
If He declared that it belongs to Him and you take it you are stealing from God. It’s like if you father says ‘this is my wallet’ and puts it there then you go steal a $40 out of it when you think he isn’t looking. Its just not the Christian thing to do.
Is God good? Is God fair? Know that these guys will stand before God in judgement and so will you and I. Or do you not trust that God’s judgement that He will give them what they deserve? That you need to throw in a kick on top of what God measures for them?
It’s not about “them” it all comes down to “us” and “our” heart and “our” walk with God.
We need to repent. Jesus is coming back.
To Alex
I’m sorry for all that you have been through. If I had gone through the same I would probably be inclined to do what you are doing. I read your “Meet the family” page and I will tell you honestly you are playing the part of Lucifer. You are playing right into his hands brother. It looks like you rebelled from authority and are lashing out.
Granted God’s authority was administered perfectly on lucifer but this Bob’s authority was misapplied by an imperfect human. The end result is rebellion, anger, hate and smearing God.
‘Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme…’ 2 Samuel 12:14
But God loves you and forgives you. It’s really easy to repent.
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9
I will be praying for you and your family and those pastors.
May God bless you all.
Love
Joe
Joe Fisher said, “Personally I think the person who wrote
“…is very powerful and he’ll kick your butt and anyone else trying to expose him..”
is for this site and trying to make Calvary people look bad so they can rally around and mock. It’s an old atheist trick. The atheist writes a post saying something like this”
I think the post you are referring to is over-the-top and sketchy, too. However, I doubt it’s an Atheist. Most of the Atheists I dialogue with, discuss issues with and share the Gospel with are reasonable people who just can’t get past Empiricism (if I can’t touch it, see it, test it, repeat it, verify it with Science, it’s not real).
Joe Fisher said, “This whole thing is ugly and all we are doing here is giving Gods enemies a chance to blaspheme Him. You are not hurting those Calvary guys. Their supporters will defend continue to them and their enemies will continue to attack them. But you are smearing God and Christianity not just by airing others dirty laundry but by your behavior here in your writing.”
I disagree with the first part, and I am open to the second part.
We are commanded to “air the dirty laundry” in Scripture. It’s confronting sin, corruption and abuse and “telling it unto the church”…and “rebuke them publicly” and following the example of Jesus and Paul the Apostle (I can list the mountain of Scriptural support and the Greek Universally Accepted definitions of the words used, if you’d like).
My style? My use of words? My approach? I would ask you to consider Matthew 23 and I would ask you to consider when Paul the Apostle rebuked Peter and when he called out Alexander the Coppersmith by name and when he said of the Judaizers, “I wish they’d go the whole way and cut their balls off!”
But, you are not the first person to challenge me on style and word usage and I could be wrong on that one….my Conscience is cool with it, but I understand your concern and that side of the argument.
I personally (and many others) think it’s a much better witness to the World around us to deal with this garbage out in the open and head-on, rather than hide it and protect it and act like a bunch of pious hypocrites. I think it opens more previously closed doors than it closes already closed doors.
The only people who seemed ticked off by all this is “Christians”…and especially “Calvary Chapel Christians”….just sayin’.
Joe Fisher said, “I believe you this Bob Grenier and the other pastors are sinners.”
You’re missing the point Joe. They’re PASTORS.
1 Timothy 3
Titus 1
1 Timothy 5:19-22
Pastors are held to a Standard. They have to cop to sin and confess and repent. They can’t remain in sin and still be a pastor. They mock God when they stand at the pulpit and say one thing with their mouths, while living and teaching another thing by their actions.
Joe said, “It looks like you rebelled from authority and are lashing out.”
Wrong.
I went with the Program as much as I could…and was still abused anyway.
My brother Geoff was the “rebellious” one, I was the “good” one. My brother Geoff got abused even worse than I did.
I bought into the LIE of Bob’s misuse of Scripture and Authority as a Pastor and he guilted me through his Position as a Calvary Chapel Chuck Smith anointed and endorsed “pastor” into believing the lie that the abuse was necessary and that the authorities weren’t Christians and didn’t understand and would separate and put us in Godless Foster Homes if we told the police or school officials, etc.
Joe, I rebuke you for this part of your post. It is dangerous. It is this mindset that helps get more children hurt and sends the wrong message.
Our loyalty is to God, first and fore-most, not to a Pastor and a System.
It is not being “rebellious to authority” to confront abuse and corruption within the Church, it is our God-given duty and Scriptural Responsibility.
Joe said, “But God loves you and forgives you. It’s really easy to repent.”
Matthew 23.
Read it, embrace it, love it.
Calling sin sin and calling “religious leaders” to repentance is righteous Joe. Jesus was pretty darn ticked above…called the Pharisees all sorts of names, with exclamation points no less.
A calling out of much sin and calling to confession and repentance and Justice and Mercy is what we’re doing Joe. Pray for all of us, that’s a good thing. I’m certainly not without sin and I’ve owned it where it is appropriate (believe me on that one, I can own sin, confess and repent). It would be great if the Calvary Chapel Leadership would do the same and experience the Gift that Repentance is.
Alex, you said something in your response to Joe that really rang a bell and I believe it is worth a second thought…
“I bought into the LIE of Bob’s misuse of Scripture and Authority as a Pastor and he guilted me through his Position as a Calvary Chapel Chuck Smith anointed and endorsed “pastor””
The part about be “guilted” is something many of us were/are victims/abusers of (myself having experienced being both sides…) I have also spent many years as a believer struggling with self inflicted guilt because of the “perceived standards of holiness the system uses to control and manipulate others into submission. If Jesus paid for ALL my sin past, present and future, what is there to be guilty about?
For years I ran on the spiritual hamster wheel of endless insinuations through sermons, prayers and the status-quo of others that I just didn’t read, pray, fast, seek, die, and give ENOUGH… Thus, I am always guilty and dependent on the abuser!
Now I am learning to truly rejoice in the cross and to rest in His finished work of redemption. Can I do anything more to save myself anymore? IT IS FINISHED and He HAS redeemed my soul! Praise The Lord…Therefore there is NO CONDEMNATION…
I am not looking for an easy way out or a cloak to sin, rather just to be rid once and for all from self-destructive guilt!
And we know who is the accuser of the brethren anyway…
Joe said, “This whole thing is ugly and all we are doing here is giving Gods enemies a chance to blaspheme Him. You are not hurting those Calvary guys. Their supporters will defend continue to them and their enemies will continue to attack them. But you are smearing God and Christianity not just by airing others dirty laundry but by your behavior here in your writing.”
Alex had a very good response on this. I just want to second what he said. The fact that so much has been done wrong for so long by senior religious leaders in the CC movement, the enemies of the Church have had a field day. They are blaspheming God without our help because they sometimes see more plainly, or just speak more plainly without the spiritual double-talk. There are also many very disillusioned Christians because these sins have been tolerated for so long.
We all appreciate your caution Joe. No one wants to add to the grief that has already been dished out by Bob Grenier and others. But the tolerant days are over. These men are going to answer for their shameful behavior just as they demand from others.
Awesome post “Once”.
I stand with you in that journey. I am grateful for the attentiveness to the spiritual disciplines for growth in faith. But I too was so focused on the mechanics of Christian living that I forgot to rest in the joy of the Lord. I have rarely felt that I have given enough of myself to God for what he has done for me. Yet I am learning also to keep my eyes fixed on the one and only perfect man…and freely follow Jesus.
Alex-
I just wanted to encourage you in your mission here. I stumbled across your blog after reading the Lighthouse Trails post about CCCM and the sex abuse scandal – your site came up very high when I searched for more info on the situation. If CC leadership was handling their problem pastors then this blog would not be needed. Many people – like Joe Fisher above – will try to discourage you by twisting Scripture, but we have found through experience that these folks are church insiders using a well-researched tactic to try to shut you up.
My CC Pittsburgh pastor absolutely adored Bob Coy, believing his shallow mega-church had to be being blessed bu God to be so “successful”. Rick Warren had Coy teach on fund-raising and said Coy is the biggest church fundraiser out there (so what is his salary reported to be anyway?). This was when Paul Smith – brother of Chuck – was still employed by CCOF and CC officially shunned Warren and his disgusting Purpose Driven paradigm. This was just one sign that the CC org was going down the tubes. When Lighthouse Trails (LHTR) published some articles critical of CC for promoting Contemplative Prayer/Emerging Church people and materials, our pastor called them liars from the pulpit and thus singled out our family of six since we were open about coming to CC-Pgh mainly because of their statements against both Purpose Driven and the Emerging church. It was completely un-Biblical to rebuke my family in that way, especially considering that everything LHTR alleged was true, and everyone in our small fellowship knew he was targeting us. We were very uncomfortable after that and it was made clear to us that our departure was welcome. There is no circumstance when lying about another Christian ministry is acceptable or justified, and we concluded that someone in CC leadership had circulated to the pastors to badmouth LHTR.
Also here is link to ecfa.org for CCFL: http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=15284
$51.6 million in revenue in 2010
$128.7 million in assets
I am betting salaries are part of Program Expenses and not admin.
Joe @ 14 said – Out of vengeance for all the wrong these guys have perpetrated against you?
‘Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord’
If He declared that it belongs to Him and you take it you are stealing from God. It’s like if you father says ‘this is my wallet’ and puts it there then you go steal a $40 out of it when you think he isn’t looking. Its just not the Christian thing to do.
Wow, so now we are thief’s?
With that being said God uses people to accomplish his work . We as christians are not to turn a blind eye to the abuse that is going on plain and simple. Many on here had been with CC for many years and have witnessed much wrong doings. I for one am thankful for this website. The stories are shared so all can be warned! It’s up to the reader to discern the truth.
Thank-you Alex and all the others who have shared your experiences
It hurts some of us because we use plain words and show emotions at times. We know we all are sinners but Pastors are to be held to a higher standard.
I think of Isaish 62:6–I have been pondering since yesterday this verse: God’s” watchmen”.
“I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; they shall never hold their peace day or night.”
Joes comments are typical to me. Especially when he ends his post “God bless you all”
To me, that kind of “i’ll discipline you, then I’ll bless you” does not sit well with me. I experienced this kind of thing a lot.
Joe has some good points though. If what is said is not said in love, it has no value to anyone.
To say that Joe read “Meet the family” and that Alex is “playing the part of Lucifer”..wow..really? Then who is Bob Grenier playing the part of? Will Satan cast out Satan?
Alex, I would urge you to in your #16 not to interpret scriptures in the way that you have. I won’t copy it but I am sure you know what word was not edifying. it takes away credibility. I am probably old enough (or almost) to be your mother so hope you see this as a motherly act of love
Once a CC Guru- Thank you so much for participating here as a former CC Pastor who is obviously walking with the Lord and I believe has a special heart on these issues discussed. Thank you for taking the time here to share.
I have been praying for over 6 years that the truth would come out about what is going on. According to Joe, we should all love these Pastors and allow them to continue to decieve the believers.
2 Timothy 3:13 I like the New Living for this.
“But evil people and imposters will flourish. They will go on deceiving others and they themselves will be decieved”
As a kid I was afraid of the dark. I use to wonder what monsters lurked in the dark and that scared me.
The Gospel is about the power and influence of the light of Christ. He alone is pure, righteous and just. When His light shines all the faults of man/mankind show up.
Therefore Joe, your beef is not with those of us shining light in the dark places of some churches, your beef is with the witness of the Light.
If you cannot acknowledge wrong, you will have a difficult time walking in the light yourself.
I am not boasting in this Joe. The light shines in my life as well and I am continually brought to a place of acknowledging sin and wrong towards God. I am to also make corrections that these sins & wrongs would no longer mark my life.
I am thankful for the Light as it leads me passionately in following Jesus…
PS 119:105 ‘Your Word o Lord is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.’
The light shows us how to walk to and what to be cautious about Joe.
Crosbycat said, “My CC Pittsburgh pastor absolutely adored Bob Coy, believing his shallow mega-church had to be being blessed bu God to be so “successful”.
If we rely on growth as the indicator of God’s blessing on a church, then wouldn’t we all join the Mormons? Aren’t they growing fast these days? Or we’d join Joel Olsteen’s congregation.
Growth can be a result of something that’s good and godly; but it can also just be a result of an efficient business model (or the sale of an image) … in which case growth can be negative. It can kill the real work of the ministry, become too large to sufficiently care for the flock, and become too impersonal for real discipleship to be healthy. Oh, and the people running the place become poor examples of Christ’s love, when they become used up from being overworked.
Grateful “Growth can be a result of something that’s good and godly; but it can also just be a result of an efficient business model (or the sale of an image)”
Amen.
And when the church gets so large, that you can become lost there, and only a handful of the “inner circle” count, it is no different than a Fortune 500 corporation..the CEO’s have position and power, the “little people” don’t matter. It is a subgroup within a group. If you wanna be in the inner circle, you gotta play the game.
Many will say “Don’t you love Pastor_____”. It is all about personality. It is not about Pastor ____, it is about God. Should we leave church feeling good about ourselves? Having a good time? Laughing? Or should we leave being convicted?
Whether joyful or convicted, we meet together each week to remember who Jesus Christ is, who we are in Christ, to have our faith encouraged, so we can love God and love others.
You are right, Hannah, we are not there because of the personality of the pastor.
PJ #17
You make a good point.
If we are truly examining the sin in our own lives, we can judge the fruit in anothers.
The CC mentality, is that under NO circumstances call out sin. Then you are a Pharisee. I have heard this preached many times. It make some feel guilty about even considering to call anyone out.
IGrateful-
But what if you leave joyful all the time?
Doesn’t that make for growing a church?
Wouldn’t that be the right marketing strategy?
(Now I don’t want to answer the question for ya!
I have to leave for the day but I wanted to add this…
What I respect most about a Pastor is his willingness to reveal to the church what he struggles with. Humility to me is what connects me to the heart of the Pastor.
If he is humble, he is the right model.
If everything is great in his life, and he never shares his struggles, how can he “with the same comfort” God has given him, comfort and lift anyone else?
Many would not want to leave a church convicted.
It is easier to just do the “Sunday” duty and go home and have a great afternoon without thinking “I fall short. I want to change. I want to grow”
It was not until I left CC that I began to grow.
I think the kind of teaching and the lack of personal conviction was missing in favor of everyone having a great time and fellowshipping after the service. I never had conversations with other women about how God is growing them. They never wanted to entertain that level of depth and soul searching. “Examine yourself and see if you are in the faith” was something I dwelled on. Not that I have arrived but I have strived for it. And the fact that I acknowledge my sin, maybe more than most I know is a good thing I think.
Well, I will end at that.
Hope this doesn’t sound prideful. Not meant to be.
PJ- I meant your #27 not #17
There are many ways to evaluate the health of a church. But the most important is the level of obedience to the core teachings of Jesus. The numerical size of a church means very little to Jesus. Size and bulk often hinders the spontaneous multiplication of the Church. The church life must be aligned with what Jesus emphasized, not with what some church growth expert has offered through consultation. It is relatively easy to fill a large church with bodies. It is hard work to do the necessary pastoring that leads to genuine growth in discipleship. If more churches were clear on what Jesus wants, they may experience numerical growth along intimate personal networks that far exceeds the numbers that can fill the largest church buildings in America. We are far to enamored with image, pomp and circumstance. It’s the deeper things that indicate a churches health.
Wide Awake wrote:
* It is hard work to do the necessary pastoring that leads to genuine growth in discipleship.
* We are far to enamored with image,
* It’s the deeper things that indicate a churches health.
You can say that again ….
… oh, I just did.
I remember when I was a young child that our pastor would visit everyone in the church. He and his wife would actually come to each families house and come into the house and spend time with us. They did this every year. He also lived next door to the church and was available all the time. Now, I don’t expect my pastor to be available for my every whim, but it just shows how things have changed.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Summer, amen, power does corrupt, it’s often satan’s greatest weapon and is framed as righteousness.
Good people (saved sinners who cop to sin and deal with it and are honest about it) need to step up and speak up and confront all this mess…and fortunately many are, which is very encouraging.
Alex,
I hear what you are saying I studied Titus and Timothy. I think those guidelines were given to prevent situations like yours from ever happening in the first place. Your sad story is an example of what can happen if the wrong people are put in authority.
But now it falls on you to walk in the heart of Jesus teaching and show love and grace. Just because something is legal to you does not mean that it is profitable. I would especially wonder if this smear pursuit is profitable to the Kingdom of God.
I think when we read the Bible we need to look at the heart of what is being taught. Over and we can read in the Bible where people took the letter of the law to a place where God had not intended. We as Christians need to serve in love and follow the heart of God’s word. Jesus taught us even though it was legal to stone someone to let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Religious authorities throughout history have abused power. It’s none of these men’s church it’s God’s church. The Body of Christ. Look at the pharisees or the Spanish inquisition. The pharisees smeared God and all believers through their actions and the zealots fighting the hypocrite pharisees smeared God and all believers through their actions. People on the sidelines watch and are repulsed from religion and rightly so.
Religion is a creation of man. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus through love and grace.
Jesus didn’t take down the corrupt leaders.
I tell you these pastors will stand before God and so will we.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23
Right before that Matthew 7:1-5 also says:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
I think instead of trying to play the part of the accuser to these guys we should take our complaints to God – The Final Authority. Instead of throwing stones at anyone we should consider the grace shown to us. Instead of pointing out the splinter in their eye we should seek God to remove the planks from our eyes.
If these pastors teach that their congregations need to be circumcised to have a relationship with God because the law says it. Then by all means rebuke them like Paul instructed Titus or like Paul rebuked Peter in Antioch.
But at the same time we can’t require these pastors to have a circumcised heart regardless of what the law says. Pastors should be blameless. In the sermon on the mount Jesus also calls us to be blameless. And in Jesus we are declared righteous but it’s a walk because on our own we are sinners.
I’m sorry I understand where you are coming from, to have a guy do you dirty then have people think he is holy seems like an injustice but God sees all and God will distribute justice. Not us. Accusations and bickering in the body just doesn’t serve God. Who do they serve? Instead of picking up stones we should deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow after Jesus. May Jesus open our hearts and bless us all, we need him!
Joe said, “Jesus didn’t take down the corrupt leaders.”
But, He sure rebuked them sharply:
Matthew 23.
Joe said, ““Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Yes, amen. I want people to point out sin in my life so I have the opportunity to repent. I have many times on many issues. I do not agree due to my read of Scripture that I am sinning by “telling it to the church (Greek is congregation and universal church)” and “rebuke them publicly” to warn others per the Apostle Paul’s instructions.
Joe said, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
Amen again. I don’t beat my wife or my kids and I don’t steal money from the church, etc etc. I am honest about my sin, if you only knew how I’ve head-on confronted sin in a big area and confessed and repented even though I had gotten away with it in man terms. Removing that log has made my vision extremely clear.
Joe said, “I think instead of trying to play the part of the accuser to these guys we should take our complaints to God – The Final Authority.”"
Yes. My loyalty is to God. Listen to the Johnny Cash song. I prayed for four years about what to do. God opened a door and when I asked God to “move the mountain”…He told me, go pick it up and move it.
Joe said, “If these pastors teach that their congregations need to be circumcised to have a relationship with God because the law says it. Then by all means rebuke them like Paul instructed Titus or like Paul rebuked Peter in Antioch.”
Extremely out of context in my opinion and not applicable the way you framed it.
What do you do, Joe, with Jesus rebuking the Pharisees publicly for hypocrisy and sin?
Matthew 23. Tough one to get around for the “don’t say anything” crowd.
1 Timothy 5:19-22 is a tough one as well.
And the verse that commands us to “Expose the deeds of darkness”.
Can’t rip those pages out of the bible.
Joe Fisher, I have some questions for you:
If a child were being abused right now, would you advise them to suffer it for Christ and let God be the Judge?
Would you advise someone working in the office of a Calvary Chapel who witnessed financial impropriety to suffer it for Christ and let God be the judge?
Would you advise someone who knew a pastor was in the sin of adultery to suffer it for Christ and let God be the judge?
Is any of this making any sense Joe? Essentially what you are asserting is for Christians to turn their brains off, close their eyes, close their ears and close their mouths and tolerate abuse, corruption and injustice in the church.
Joe, how does God get stuff done? Doesn’t He often use people to bring about His will?
Were Martin Luther and the Reformers “in sin” or “wrong” for challenging the Catholic Church? Are you a Catholic Joe?
Alex, I don’t know man. On all those questions what I would do is irrelevant because outside Jesus I am no one. What should I do according to Gods word? Well you have the same Bible that I do. I’m not saying turn a blind eye to sin. I think in all cases we need to trust God and let him fight our battles for us.
I do think Martin Luther saw corruption of God’s word and and wrote theses that led to church reform. But I think Just like in Matthew 23, Galatians and Titus the issue wasn’t personal grievances but the church rebuked actually teaching wrong practices as God’s word.
I’m sorry man I don’t see you doing that. Maybe it’s your wording. It just seems so full of hate. I don’t mean Jesus righteous anger in Matthew 23, I mean malice.
“for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.” James 1:20
If the church is teaching something that is leading people away from God as God’s word then yes they need to be rebuked.
But if one man is sinning I think it should be dealt with like in 1 Corinthians 5.
Here reading some of the comments are ugly.
Maybe reform is needed so more people are not treated how you were. I thank God your experience didn’t turn you away from God! But your site here is not closed letters nailed on church doors. This is an open forum where malignant hate and snide comments seem to be encouraged. Instead of just leading reform you have given a platform for zealots who hate the pharisees to smear God through their behavior or rather misbehavior in a public forum. I just don’t see festering hate as serving God.
Too much to comment on Joes’s post.
Of course,..there it is just like what I said in another thread yesterday “He who is without sin”….
Sure that if Joes daughter were raped by a CC Pastor, he would not “take the letter of the law to a place God had not intended” as he says. He would go to court. That is why we have the law.
What does the “letter of the law” have to do with this?
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Joe:”But at the same time we can’t require these pastors to have a circumcised heart regardless of what the law says.”
What does this mean? Are you saying we ought not expect the Pastors to be converted?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Joe:”The pharisees smeared God and all believers through their actions and the zealots fighting the hypocrite pharisees smeared God and all believers through their actions. People on the sidelines watch and are repulsed from religion and rightly so.”
So are you Joe, comparing Alex and the rest of us to Pharisees?
I think people ought to be on the sidelines fighting the battle with evil, not accepting it and making excuses for it, and pulling scripture out of context.
Yesterday, in my devotion it was Psalm 97:10 “Hate evil, you who love the Lord”
“I hate every false way..I hate those who are double minded, but I love They law.
Psalm 119:104, 113, 128, 163
“Holy hatred” will seem like a contradiction in terms of those who view all hatred as evil. But love and hate are inseperable.. You can’t truly love something and be complacent about the things that oppose or threaten it.
If you love your spouse, you hate anything that would defile or injure him or her. If you love your children, you hate anything that would harm them. If you love good, you hate evil. If you love God, you hate Satan. Thats why scripture says “Hate evil, you who love the Lord” Psalm 97:10 and “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil, pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverted mouth, I (God) hate” Proverbs 8:13
The law we have is in place to follow. Thats why CC is involved in many lawsuits.
Didn’t C. Smith sue someone over the radio station issue?
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Joe:”I think instead of trying to play the part of the accuser to these guys we should take our complaints to God – The Final Authority. Instead of throwing stones at anyone we should consider the grace shown to us. Instead of pointing out the splinter in their eye we should seek God to remove the planks from our eyes. ”
So Joe, if your daughter was repeatedly raped by a Pastor, you would just pray about it?
Is that what you are saying?
And anyone who tries to stop this man from repeat abuse would be considered an “accuser”??
Alex-my last is in moderation. Maybe too long? or am I being too outspoken.
Joe said, “I do think Martin Luther saw corruption of God’s word and and wrote theses that led to church reform. But I think Just like in Matthew 23, Galatians and Titus the issue wasn’t personal grievances but the church rebuked actually teaching wrong practices as God’s word.”
Joe, IMO, actions teach louder than words. Abuse and corruption and LYING in the name of Jesus teaches an awful lot.
My issue isn’t just personal grievances, though it can certainly be interpreted that way (from the sincere) or framed and spun that way (from the insincere).
Bob Grenier is a Microcosm of the Calvary Chapel System and Movement. I have found out that the same problems in the area of Authoritarianism, Opacity, Sinfulness, Abusiveness and Corruption (and cover up and lying) is a System/Organization wide problem.
I could win a lawsuit against Bob tomorrow, it wouldn’t change my desire to see Calvary Chapel confess and repent of their sins and make needed reforms to their System.
Joe said, “I’m sorry man I don’t see you doing that. Maybe it’s your wording. It just seems so full of hate. I don’t mean Jesus righteous anger in Matthew 23, I mean malice.
“for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.” James 1:20″
I hear your concern on this one, and I am not claiming to have gone about all of this sinless or perfectly. I often tell my Atheist/Secular Humanist friends that if they are waiting for me to model Jesus perfectly before they’ll believe, they’ll die in their unbelief.
I can, with a clear Conscience, say that I have been both righteously and unrighteously angry over these issues. I believe God works through imperfect vessels and I have had to repent of unrighteous anger many times during this process with lots of starts and stops.
The wording is a difficult metric to gauge the heart. I know “out of the heart the mouth speaks”, etc etc.
However, if Rhetoric is the Standard for “righteousness”…God in the Old Testament seems pretty hateful…strong words used like “Hate”, “Abomination”, “Kill all the men, women, children and animals” etc etc.
Jesus sounds pretty hateful and full of wrath addressing the Pharisees and money-changers.
Paul the Apostle sounds pretty hateful and full of wrath when addressing Peter and the Judaizers and Alexander the Coppersmith, etc etc.
I’d be careful, Joe, judging “heart” when it comes to Rhetoric and Style.
You’ve cautioned me regarding Scripture. Is it wrong to “tell it unto the church” and to “rebuke them publicly”?
Is it wrong from Scripture to abuse children, steal money, cover up adultery, allow pastors to continue to have the power of being a Chuck Smith blessed Pastor when a pastor violates the qualifications via adultery, stealing, child molestation, child abuse, etc etc? Isn’t it wrong and sin for Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith to continually lie?
Is it wrong from Scripture to call out the sin? Is it wrong from Scripture to call for the truth and to call for confession and repentance?
No, it clearly isn’t. If you disagree, please back it up with Scripture, besides the wrath thing, which is a “heart” judgment based on Rhetoric and Style.
Galatians 5:12
Matthew 23
2 Timothy 4:14
Matthew 16:23
1 Samuel 15:2-4
1 Samuel 15:22-23
1 Samuel 15:32-33
1 Samuel 15:35
“God hates liars. “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him … a lying tongue … a false witness that speaketh lies” (6:16-19). Therefore, good and honest men reject liars! David said, “He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight” (Ps 101:7).
God hates liars. One of the Ten Commandments condemns false witnesses (Ex 20:16). The LORD warned men to stay far away from any falsehood in trials (Ex 23:1-7). If a man perjured himself in court, he received the punishment that was being deliberated, even if it was capital punishment (Deut 19:16-21)! What a way to enhance the memory!
God hates liars. And He loves to expose them. Be sure your sin will find you out. Achan lied about stealing from Jericho, but he was discovered and stoned and burned with his family (Josh 7:1-26). Ananias and Sapphira lied about their large gift to the church, and members of the youth group buried them that day (Acts 5:1-11). What an object lesson!”
Joe, clearly God hates lying, and I hate it, too. Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith are lying.
BTW, Chuck Smith’s Moses Model is an Old Testament-based Construct…so maybe we should Stone Chuck Smith, Bob Grenier and all the other liars in the Calvary Chapel System for lying and not coming clean
I am familiar with Proverbs 6. One of the things that God hates is
‘…a person who sows discord in a family.’
I don’t want you or I to be guilty of one of the things that God hates.
Achen was pointed out by God. Ananias and Sapphira were taken by God.
I’m telling you God will deal with these guys that need dealing with and with us too.
Joe, who is “sowing discord” in the family?
The one who commits the sins, abuses and corruption and lies about it?
Or the one calling out the sin and lying?
Joe, God is dealing with these guys…and this site and other actions are how (partly) He’s choosing to deal with them (I believe).
How did God deal with Saul? How did God deal with King David? How did God deal with the Pharisees? How did God deal with the Judaizers? How did God deal with Peter? How did God deal with so many who were in sin and error?
Tell me how God did that Joe, without using people?
Some people repent from conviction of the Holy Spirit, others God uses means to bring about correction.
The stuff that’s coming (lawsuits, criminal investigations etc) is an escalation of God’s unheeded warnings to Calvary Chapel.
There is great sin and cover up and lying in the Camp. God will deal with it how He chooses to deal with it. I’m just doing what I’m compelled to do and trust that God will sort it out.
Alex you said: “God will deal with it how He chooses to deal with it. I’m just doing what I’m compelled to do and trust that God will sort it out.”
He will work it all for good. I just hope that the things we do are compelled by God and not by our hearts which are desperately wicked and can deceive us. I hope you keep in God’s word and keep in prayer seeking God’s will.
Joe-
If your daughter was raped by a CC Pastor, would you just say to her “Dear, lets just keep this in prayer and God will work it out for good” or would you take the man to court?
Still waiting….
Hanna,
I know the natural human response is to go kill all the men in Shechem but I pray that I would trust God to fight my battles and trust Him that He will dispense truly fair judgement. He is God I’m not. We have history like Genesis 34 so we can learn from others mistakes and not take matters into our own hands.
We want our justice now the same way we want treasures here on earth. But God knows what is best and we don’t. I have two little daughters. I take your question seriously. I’m not saying it would be easy; the flesh is strong. But we are not called to take the easy road we are called to deny ourselves, take up our cross and and follow after Him.
Joe, how do you explain the biblical mandates for the rebuke of leaders? What about the prophets in the Old Testament? You’re being reflexively defensive and not acknowledging that these things were brought to the parties in question in a peaceful manner–but they spurned them and this is but the next step.
Let me get this straight …
Joe, if your daughter was raped by a CC pastor, but he was restored after framing your daughter as the temptress (inspite of the fact that he had prior known moral failings,) you would just take it to prayer and not allow your daughter to speak up, either?
I would not want my daughter to have you as a father.
If you had a son, whom you allowed to go on a CC church sanctioned mission trip, and he was molested there by a man who was known by leadership in CC to have molested other kids previously, you would just take it to prayer and not allow your son to speak up, either?
I would not want my son to have you as a father.
If you were in a church where the pastor was beating his wife and kids, and maybe even sexually molesting one of them, you would not speak up, nor would you want the pastor’s kids to speak up?
Joe, think about what you are saying. The Bible doesn’t teach us to step aside and allow evil to rule. AFTER we’ve removed the log from our own eye, THEN we can deal with the sin issue. We MUST stand up for children Proverbs 31:8
Now, if I were a perp, I’d LOVE to have you in my church!
Gandy,
I’m not defending them but rather questioning if gossip and hate is the right way to deal with anything. As Christians shouldn’t we be following Jesus? How do i explain the prophets in the Old Testament dispensing justice? Well i think they showed us how bloody the law is without grace. No one is capable of coming to God through the law no matter how hard we tried. Their attempts and ours lead to suffering and make God look bad. The only way to God the only way to good is through Jesus. There a lot of mandates if we are going to try to get to God by the law. Stoning. Jesus taught us the grace alternative. Divorce. Jesus taught us the grace alternative. If we are coming by the law then we need to keep the entirety of the law. We just are not capable. So we have no other way than grace. How can we having been saved by grace and living by grace start dealing with others through the law. It would be hypocracy.
Gandy,
I’m not defending them but rather questioning if gossip and hate is the right way to deal with anything. As Christians shouldn’t we be following Jesus? How do i explain the prophets in the Old Testament dispensing justice? Well i think they showed us how bloody the law is without grace. No one is capable of coming to God through the law no matter how hard we tried. Their attempts and ours lead to suffering and make God look bad. The only way to God the only way to good is through Jesus. There a lot of mandates if we are going to try to get to God by the law. Stoning. Jesus taught us the grace alternative. Divorce. Jesus taught us the grace alternative. If we are coming by the law then we need to keep the entirety of the law. We just are not capable. So we have no other way than grace. How can we having been saved by grace and living by grace start dealing with others through the law. It would be hypocrisy.
sorry to double post my phone is bugging out
Grateful,
I think the right way would be to pray about it and seek God’s will instead of jumping to action but possibly drag God’s name through the mud. We are not in control God is. He is aware of the sin people commit. No one is going to get away with anything because God didn’t have my help as a holy human avenger. I can’t trust my heart telling me that God wants me to get justice. If God wants me to take action He can give me multiple confirming signs like He did for Moses and Gideon. God is perfectly capable of taking them down in accordance with His plan.Who am I to try to take the place of God? I have to trust him. What kind of world would this be if Christians all though their calling and commission was to dispense justice?
oops. as though
hahah I meant
What kind of world would this be if Christians all thought their calling and commission was to dispense justice?
I can’t even write a coherent post. How can I trust myself to seek justice in the place of God?
Go back 2000 years. If someone’s daughter was raped and they asked Jesus should I sue them for the full measure of the law? Should I seek their blood?
Do you want to know what Jesus would say?
Well then ask Him! He is the living God!
Joe said: “I think the right way would be to pray about it and seek God’s will instead of jumping to action but possibly drag God’s name through the mud.”
I completely agree, Joe. I did not jump into action, believing that to be unwise for my situation. This is why I took 2 years praying and seeking reconciliation with a leader. My pastor said I had done nothing wrong and the leader did have a habitual sin in the area that led to the issue brought up. Unfortunately, I was informed by the leaders that their job is to cover each others’ backs, so they had to protect the leader in sin.
I chose to leave quietly and pray for another year. In my case this leader continued in the outbursts of anger and suddenly was eventually removed with an excuse given for the leader moving on. But I was not a defenseless child and this leader was not hurting children, who had no voice.
So in my case, I waited and prayed for a long time. However, since I did follow through on the Matthew 18 approach in the beginning, and since the leader and the pastors remain unrepentant, I am to “tell the church” and warn believers.
We’ve had so many people come to us over the last couple of years, who were destroyed by things that took place at the church as a result of the unbiblical Moses Model leadership style of a lack of accountability, which leads to all manner of corruption, intimidation, and lies, that it became obvious there is a serious and systemic problem.
Joe said, ” What kind of world would this be if Christians all though their calling and commission was to dispense justice?”
We are not dispensing justice. We are warning the church and calling the leaders in sin to repentance. But because the leaders are not repenting, then the courts will dispense justice in some cases. The laws of the land will speak. For all the rest they can read the warnings.
Joe said, “What kind of world would this be if Christians all thought their calling and commission was to dispense justice?”
Not many feel it’s their calling.
What kind of world would it be if all Christians turned a blind eye to sin, abuse, corruption and injustice…especially in the church?
Answer: It would be a world like Calvary Chapel…and the world is much like them and vise versa.
It seems like seeking the intervention of men. Why not pray for them seeking the intervention of God?
I found this interesting … the point of the passage is worth a ponder …
Ezekial 33:1-7 (Joe, do you know what God has told Alex? What if God has asked Alex to be a “watchmen”? What if some of us feel God has called us to take the steps we are taking? I don’t do this out of malice, but out of concern for embedded sin in the church, and hating what God hates … lying tongues, and more. Though I love the people who are caught up in their sin and have prayed and asked them to repent.
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary (Note the last sentence)
33:1-9 The prophet is a watchman to the house of Israel. His business is to warn sinners of their misery and danger. He must warn the wicked to turn from their way, that they may live. If souls perish through his neglect of duty, he brings guilt upon himself. See what those have to answer for, who make excuses for sin, flatter sinners, and encourage them to believe they shall have peace, though they go on. How much wiser are men in their temporal than in their spiritual concerns! They set watchmen to guard their houses, and sentinels to warn of the enemies’ approach, but where the everlasting happiness or misery of the soul is at stake, they are offended if ministers obey their Master’s command, and give a faithful warning; they would rather perish, listening to smooth things.
Wow Joe… I don’t even know where to begin. Have you not read any of the scriptures that Alex laid out for you? Isn’t it remotely possible that what you are seeing here and other places is actually God working through these people? I admire your stance on grace but struggle with the fact that you seem to completely ignore righteous anger. If what Alex and others are doing is wrong, then pray that God close this blog and kill off the momentum that seems to be building. God will not allow His name to be trampled on so as you say, He can and will deal with this whole mess. It sure looks to me like this is how He chose to deal with it. He’s using Alex and a host of others. If you took the time and researched Calvary Chapel’s throughout this country, you would see that many of them are struggling and falling apart. Why do you suppose that is Joe? It’s God working in His time and using His people (like Alex), to make people like you aware of the atrocities that are being tolerated by Chuck and many others in His house. Sorry Joe but you should pray for discernment… Do you realize that your position looks like tolerance? Standing by and waiting while God’s children are being damaged is sin!
Joe said, “I’m not defending them but rather questioning if gossip and hate is the right way to deal with anything”
Joe, may I refer you back to your own Standard of “Don’t Judge”….apply your own professed Standard here please. You are judging, per your Standard, the motives of the heart of everyone on here (it appears).
You are also redefining the Gossip of Scripture.
Joe said, “Why not pray for them seeking the intervention of God?”
I pray all the time about it, prayed for 4 years before God opened the door.
You present it as a False Dichotomy…as if we “only” speak out and expose the abuse, corruption and lying and don’t pray in tandem with it.
It’s Gods church. The Body of Christ. Gossiping about a sick body part is not what it takes to restore it to health.
Joe said, “Go back 2000 years. If someone’s daughter was raped and they asked Jesus should I sue them for the full measure of the law? Should I seek their blood?”
Now you are getting into dangerous territory Joe.
You are using Scripture to manipulate not reporting abuse, molestation, rape, crime, corruption etc.
Jesus did not call us to enable sin and abuse.
If this is something you are telling others at your church, I will warn you to stop or you may face legal action eventually and you will have blood on your hands when abusers abuse and get away with it and then abuse again.
Alex said, “If this is something you are telling others at your church” Alex is Joe a pastor?
Joe you can repeat your Gossip canard and justify your angle of enabling abuse, corruption, rape, molestation, lying etc etc. all you want.
You’re wrong…but there is Grace for your wrongness.
However, again, I would strongly encourage you not to give out the advice you are giving on here to others. It’s not just Spiritually wrong, it is also criminally wrong and civilly wrong.
Don’t guilt people into not reporting abuse, corruption, crime etc. Our laws of the land (and Paul the Apostle asserts in Romans 13:1 that we are to obey the laws of our land that aren’t in opposition to God…and God does not require us to abuse and molest children and God does not require us to steal and lie, etc).
Exchanging Truth for Lies
(Context found here: http://www.answers.org/ethics/exposing_sin.html )
“When the Church allows compromised Christian leaders to explain away sin, compromise truth, and sin with impunity, we exchange truth for lies. We become no better than idolaters, people whose credulous adoration of compromised leaders fulfill what Paul calls exchanging “the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man . . . exchang[ing] the truth of God for a lie” (Rom. 1:22, 25). Our recasting of King David’s story from 2 Samuel is a lie, but sadly, it represents a popular attitude in the Church today toward sin in Christian leadership. Unfortunately, although most Christians sincerely want truth and want to follow biblical ethics, we too often listen to such lies from our leadership and instead of denouncing sin and demanding accountability, we parrot excuses like those given here and allow compromised leaders to continue in leadership.”
Covered, I hope Joe is not a pastor, or he is in serious error and if he’s given out similar advice to members of his church and encouraged not reporting he is in violation of the law.
Joe, are you a pastor?
I wouldn’t presume to ask God’ to close this blog like you said. I would ask that His will be done. As for judging. No Judgement from me. Just sadness about all the malignant hate being passed around.
You said:
“Isn’t it remotely possible that what you are seeing here and other places is actually God working through these people? ”
God works in love. Where is the love? Certainly not in gathering in the dark corners of the internet to spread hate then pat each other on the backs for it.
Joe, you use the body part analogy…sometimes you have to cut out the gangrene to save the rest of the body. Just sayin.
Joe, did Jesus love the Pharisees? Did Paul the Apostle love Peter and Judaizers? etc etc etc.
Again, you present a False Dichotomy and have a misunderstanding (either intentional or unintentional) of “love”.
The Gift of Repentance is the most loving thing one can hope for for another in serious sin.
I hope Calvary Chapel repents…and I have much love for the victims of abuse and I love all those who will be abused in this System of No Accountability and error.
Sometimes it is much more “loving” to confront the sin, abuse, corruption etc than to silently tolerate it and enable it.
Joe said, “No Judgment from me. Just sadness about all the malignant hate”
Isn’t this a judgment?
Abused people do have to work through the emotions of it all. Many, understandably, have had to work through anger and weed out unrighteous anger and keep righteous anger, such as Jesus had in the temple with the money changers, etc…
But to say the abused on here have “malignant hate” is a judgment on your part, Joe.
Not a pastor and never even been inside a Calvary once. I have nothing against reporting things to the proper authorities if that’s what God has you do after taking it to God first.
My advice was to seek God’s will first and last. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love and that’s what we all need is reconciliation in love.
Joe said, “I have nothing against reporting things to the proper authorities if that’s what God has you do after taking it to God first.”
That is what Alex, and others, have done.
Some of reporting these issues to the proper authorities involves gathering information. This site is a way to do that. People read on here things that show them they are not alone, that their issue is a systemic issue in CC. Many write Alex and give him more info about “issues” that they have first hand info about, or maybe who does. This aids in reporting to the proper authorities.
So then you would agree, based on what I read from you, that this process is being handled correctly?
Grateful,
The gossip here is not Jesus chasing money changers! Yikes !
Jesus didn’t write out a journal of one of the moneychangers sins on a wall under the label of the temple’s name and encourage others to do the same.
http://www.answers.org/ethics/exposing_sin.html
“Christians who cry out, “It’s wrong to judge,” are ignoring the context of the passage (Matt. 7:1-2), which does not forbid judging, but instead insists on judgment according to God’s word. In addition, a judgmental criticism of judgment is self-refuting. If it is wrong for a Christian to publicly criticize a Christian leader whose testimony is false or who is immoral, then isn’t the critic also wrong for publicly criticizing the Christian? Paul points out this contradiction among some Jews, saying, “You who say, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?” (Rom. 2:22). One who speaks English to utter the sentence “I can’t utter a word in English” has refuted himself. Aren’t those who accuse Christian investigative journalism of being the “Christian Gestapo” themselves acting Gestopo-ish?”
Alex, I’ve got 2 in moderation.
Joe, what is your definition of gossip?
“Certainly not in gathering in the dark corners of the internet to spread hate then pat each other on the backs for it.” Joe, this is anything but a “dark corner.” I am saddened by your tolerance of evil. Should we just “love” and not punish the people in prison? Where do you draw the line between love and evil? Is there evil in this world? If there is, how does God deal with it? Have you not read the Beatitudes or Romans 13? You are a brother and I have no problem with you but would ask that you consider the fact that this is a dark, ugly, sinful place and “hating the sin” is a verb.
Ok guys I have said my piece. Hopefully it was some food for thought. Please keep in God’s word and please keep praying for God’s will to be done not ours. I will keep you and for the Calvary Chapels in my prayers.
Joe said, “Hiding in the dark corners…”
Hilarious. I’m about as transparent as a pane of glass, Calvary Chapel and CCCM is about as transparent as an Onyx.
I can’t force everyone on here to use their real names, but they are afraid of recrimination.
One poster on here has been threatened anonymously to harm him and his wife and kids if he spoke up about corruption (he was on a Calvary Chapel Board).
It’s that bad.
Joe, amen on your last post.
My primary prayer is for God’s Will to be done.
Grateful,
‘…Gossipers speak of the faults and failings of others, or reveal potentially embarrassing or shameful details regarding the lives of others without their knowledge or approval. Even if they mean no harm, it is still gossip.
In the book of Romans, Paul reveals the sinful nature and lawlessness of mankind, stating how God poured out His wrath on those who rejected His laws. Because they had turned away from God’s instruction and guidance, He gave them over to their sinful natures. The list of sins includes gossips and slanderers (Romans 1:29b-32). We see from this passage how serious the sin of gossip is and that it characterizes those who are under God’s wrath.
Another group who were (and still are today) known for indulging in gossip is widows. Paul cautions widows against entertaining the habit of gossip and of being idle. These women are described as “gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to” (1 Timothy 5:12-13). Because women tend to spend a lot of time in each other’s homes and work closely with other women, they hear and observe situations which can become distorted, especially when repeated over and over. Paul states that widows get into the habit of going from home to home, looking for something to occupy their idleness. Idle hands are the devil’s workshop, and God cautions against allowing idleness to enter our lives. “A gossip betrays a confidence; so avoid a man [or woman] who talks too much” (Proverbs 20:19).
Women are certainly not the only ones who have been found guilty of gossip. Anyone can engage in gossip simply by repeating something heard in confidence. The book of Proverbs has a long list of verses that cover the dangers of gossip and the potential hurt that results from it. “A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue. A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy man keeps a secret” (Proverbs 11:12-13).
The Bible tells us that “a perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends” (Proverbs 16:28). Many a friendship has been ruined over a misunderstanding that started with gossip. Those who engage in this behavior do nothing but stir up trouble and cause anger, bitterness, and pain among friends. Sadly, some people thrive on this and look for opportunities to destroy others. And when such people are confronted, they deny the allegations and answer with excuses and rationalizations. Rather than admit wrongdoing, they blame someone else or attempt to minimize the seriousness of the sin. “A fool’s mouth is his undoing, and his lips are a snare to his soul. The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man’s inmost parts” (Proverbs 18:7-8).
Those who guard their tongues keep themselves from calamity (Proverbs 21:23). So we must guard our tongues and refrain from the sinful act of gossip. If we surrender our natural desires to the Lord, He will help us to remain righteous. May we all follow the Bible’s teaching on gossip by keeping our mouths shut unless it is necessary and appropriate to speak.’
Joe, I’d rather be making a lot of money like Chuck Smith, Bob Coy, Raul Ries, Bob Grenier, etc etc. than spending time on here calling out the sin, abuse and corruption (at my expense by the way).
However, my calling is not to be a celebrity pastor who makes a ton of money and sins and then lies about it.
I think, Joe, you’ve got your guns turned on the wrong crowd.
Joe, at first I hear your desire to make sure you don’t sin in rebuking sin. That is biblical and respectable.
You say if we pray and do what God leads us to do that we are doing what’s right. Which is what we are doing.
But then you don’t acknowledge that’s what we are doing and then judge our hearts saying we are “hating” in the negative sense, not the righteous hating of sin that we told to have in the Scriptures.
You call our warning others … gossip. This is not idle talk. This is not saying something that shouldn’t be brought up … this is a serious matter and not taken lightly. We are warning the church, we are calling on all CC leaders to repent for sinful actions or sinful inaction.
I’m wondering what motivates you to want to cover up serious damaging sin?
Looks like I’ll have to do a thread on what the Scripture tells us is “Gossip”…there seems to be a misunderstanding that is often perpetuated to guilt people into silence about sin, abuse and corruption of church leaders…and not following clear commands to “tell it unto the church” and to “expose the deeds of darkness” and to “rebuke them publicly”, etc.
Joe said, “The gossip here is not Jesus chasing money changers! Yikes !”
I beg to differ. Part of this is very much like Jesus beating and driving out the money changers who were making money off of God.
Guys,
I’m not the judge of you and I am often wrong so don’t let me lead you astray if anything I said misinterprets scripture.
But God will never lead you astray.
I’m just saying please be sure that it’s actually God who is calling you to do this and that it’s actually God who you are serving.
“Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,’ 2 Peter 1:10
Grateful,
No ulterior motive here man. I just think it’s sad when Christians put each other down. I think it makes Christianity look bad and therefor gives Jesus a bad name. I hear you that pastors behaving badly gives us Christians a bad name too. I think religious leaders are the devils second strongest tool right behind selfishness. I agree that it feels like something should be done but I have to trust that God will do something. I have nothing against you guys on here its just that some of the hate I have read here just made this site seem wrong and I was motivated to speak up and share my opinion. My opinion is not God’s word and we all need to seek God’s will through God’s word.
Joe, amen to your 11:50am.
It has been a long long process with many many countless hours of prayer, consideration, second-guessing, starting, stopping, restarting etc etc etc.
You are seeing the timeline at a much more advanced stage than you maybe realize.
Joe said, “I’m not the judge of you and I am often wrong so don’t let me lead you astray if anything I said misinterprets scripture.”
I appreciate your humility.
Joe said, “I’m just saying please be sure that it’s actually God who is calling you to do this and that it’s actually God who you are serving. ”
I can speak for myself, that I take this very seriously. I think Alex has proven he takes it seriously, as well as many others who pay a price for being on here. For what it costs us to speak out against sin in the CC church, we each have needed to know what God wants us to do. In our own strength we can do nothing. But woe to him who does not obey God’s leading.
Joe said, “I have nothing against you guys on here its just that some of the hate I have read here just made this site seem wrong and I was motivated to speak up and share my opinion.”
Just remember, Joe, you did here what we are doing. You called us out on your perception that we’ve sinned. This is a public forum. But you told us we shouldn’t do that to CC leaders in unrepentant sin.
I have a feeling Joe has not read anything anyone has posted, due to his replies.
Joe: “Go back 2000 years. If someone’s daughter was raped and they asked Jesus should I sue them for the full measure of the law? Should I seek their blood?
Do you want to know what Jesus would say?
Well then ask Him! He is the living God!”
You know Jesus says that if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off.
I think in some parts of the country they have it right.
Just they are cutting off the parts that caused the man to sin.
So there.
Some parts of the world, not country. My brain is spinning right now.
Grateful,
Sorry man I don’t buy that. I answered you on your turf I didn’t go and write all the bad stuff I could think of about you on gratefulabuse.com. It’s different. One feels like it’s slandering Christianity somehow while the other is appealing to you that we as Christians shouldn’t slander each other. Even if I had made a website “gratefulabuse.com” my actions wouldn’t justify yours.
Joe, I’d encourage you to take the time to read through the entire blog.
It may help you make a more informed opinion.
Joe, In order to slander, I’d have to say something false. I have not.
Hannah,
So much irony in what you write.
Jesus teaches us there about about introspection and I if you had read all the posts on here you have read that I think 1 Corinthians 5 is the way to deal with an individual.
In the scripture you quote Jesus didn’t say if your hand causes you to sin then have Hannah gossip about it. So there is no justification for you there. Like I said there we need to seek Jesus. We need to ask Him what He want’s us to do. Not just grab scriptures out of context and try to interpret them to justify our vendettas.
Joe, you’re making a critical error.
Grateful is not a pastor in sin committing adultery, child abuse, molestation, corruption and then lying about it and covering it up.
Joe, you are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to rewriting and redefining the “slander” and “gossip” of Scripture.
You either believe the Scripture of Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5:19-22 and Ephesians 5:11 or you don’t.
Joe,
Would it be gossip to prosecute a man who raped my daughter?
As tempting as this is….I will get off this merry-go-round now as not to waste any more of God’s precious time
This is nothing more than a snare.
Alex,
My opinion is irrelevant. If I agreed with you wholeheartedly it wouldn’t justify anything. It’s between you and God.
Grateful,
Sorry I misused the word slander because of my ignorance that it implies something untrue. I was just trying to not to reuse the word gossip again. Whether the things you said were true or not is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. If everything you have ever said was 100% true that still doesn’t justify gossip and bickering.
It’s all about Jesus and are we serving Him?
Ok guys I am out of here. I wasn’t looking to fan the fire and that looks like that’s what I’m starting to do. May God keep you and bless you all.
Hannah,
You are not the prosecutor and that’s not what you are doing on here. Who’s job is it to see that justice is carried out? Be patient. They will stand before God.
Hannah, I agree. Joe had his say and can hold his opinion (which IMO is error) if he wants.
There is a big difference between Scriptural Accountability and “gossip” and “slander”.
God knows the difference, I don’t think Joe does.
Alex–My fear is …how many more Joes are there?
I am at lunch, and today just in 3 hours, more than 3 situations arose (one with a Christian) that let me know the enemy is alive and working overtime.
We have the law for a reason.
We pay our taxes (Didn’t Jesus say to pay taxes to Caesar?) so that we can pay prosecutors to prosecute criminals.
It seems Joe would suggest we do away with our judicial system entirely.
Hannah said, “Alex–My fear is …how many more Joes are there?”
There are quite a few in Calvary Chapel….and part of the System’s Procedure (it is actually taught) in dealing with this type of stuff is to trot out the Gossip and Slander angle…twisting Scripture to hide abuse and corruption and lying and to protect the Senior Pastor and to obfuscate the truth and guilt people into keeping silent about what has happened to them and others.
It is offensive and wrong. I reject it completely. It’s error.
Joe may mean well, dunno his heart…but he’s clearly wrong.
Unfortunately, others in CC do know what they’re doing and they do it intentionally to cover stuff up.
Read Chuck Smith’s Distinctives.
Covering the sin of the Senior Pastors is in the DNA, it’s in the documents and it’s encouraged.
Good news. I will be interviewed for a Christian Radio program in the coming week or two.
Pray that God gives me the words.
The subject will be Calvary Chapel and the abuse and corruption issues, etc.
Praise God!!!
Will be praying for you Alex.
Please let us know the day and time.
And if we can hear it or download it.
Alex, I look forward to what you write about gossip. I get weary of constantly dealing with the misuse of this word.
Defenders of the guilty would have us believe that to speak of any wrongs committed is gossip. That is false. That is not the biblical definition of gossip. The subjects dealt with on this blog, is the calling out of those in sin, by omission or commission, who’ve refused to repent, or even give a hearing to the abused.
This is not idle talk, nor are we bringing up things that should not be brought up. For many of us it’s only after prayer, Mt. 18 approaches, and doing everything in our power to be able to have reconciliation with those in CC leadership, have we spoken publicaly to warn the church & I Timothy 5. I can only really speak for myself, but from what others have written on here, they are claiming to have done the same.
It’s not gossip no matter how many times someone says it is. It’s not gossip no matter how many times a CC pastor claims it is.
I agree Concerned.
I have shared my battle with attempting to settle a matter with the Sr. Pastor over an issue with another Pastor and he would not handle the situation whe he himself was the one who said he would.
Let’s try this route…
What is Calvary Chapel’s appeal? First who does it appeal to? CC largely appeals to Baby Boomers. Their kids have to go with their parents but I really don’t see a next generation of CC.
Calvary Chapel appeals to people because they have contemporary (meaning 70′s and 80′s style) music. Their music has reached far beyond just the bounds of CC. It has caused major worship wars in churches where older folks who like hymnals feel displaced by the praise music. For many other denominations this has resulted in a blended style of worship with some praise and some hymnal music. Even CCCM on a Sunday morning has this situation.
They have a casual dress code. This is a mirror of what happened in the workplace. Not long ago everyone wore shirts and ties. Calvary lets you wear flip flops. You don’t have to dress up.
They don’t require much of commitment phobic people. Like other mega churches you just show up and leave at the end. Nobody calls you when you stop coming and nobody bothers you to become a member. You don’t need to serve on a committee or do anything you don’t want to.
Calvary Chapel appears to be non-dogmatic. They don’t have creeds you read or appear to have any sort of consistent form of worship (liturgy). They “just teach the Bible”. The reality is really quite different, but none of that is obvious to the person who just warms a pew.
Calvary Chapel has done gangbusters in the big cities and failed miserably in rural locations.
Doug makes a great point. Clearly it’s the most denominational, non denominational church I have ever seen. Our little po-dunk Calvary up here tries so hard to be like CCCM and it is a joke…
* No kids in the sanctuary for worship or any other reason
* If you leave service, no coming back in
* The pastor is always right!
* When putting down another church, what we heard was, “that’s why we do it this way”
* No shorts or t-shirts on the worship team
* The word “Halloween” does not exist
* They are probably the only tribe in heaven
Here’s my favorite… “where God guides, He provides” the local pastor here asked for $3000 from the pulpit because he can’t pay the bills and he’s losing everything! I guess God stopped providing? It probably wasn’t in this guys best interest to chase married women…
Covered, yeppers.
The dude is disqualified from ministry. I can’t believe that Bob Grenier was called in as part of the team to deal with that situation.
That’s like putting Iran on the Human Right’s Commission at the U.N. Ridiculous.
I would like to tell that particular story…
I’m ok with sharing details now. My fear a year ago was backlash to the victims here but that has changed. He no longer has “teeth” and can’t hurt people anymore like he used to. Let me know what you are thinking.
It’s especially interesting how he ran to Roger, Dave R & Raul to defend him as soon as we confronted him about his sin. Of course I as the assistant was the problem. Dave actually told our elders to think of a way to punish me even though I had been fired! Great stuff… God is speaking and it’s rampant throughout the “movement”
Covered, I’ll contact you and we can talk this one through. It’s an important issue and story to address. It is yet another illustration of all that is wrong with the CC System.
You hit the nail on the head, the CC Senior Pastor ran to Rolph, Rosales and Ries to get help to protect his man kingdom and cover his sin…the OPPOSITE of what Calvary Chapel presents to the Public as CCOF and Accountability. It’s a myth. A lie.
The last thing a Victim or Whistle-blower should do is go to Chuck Smith’s Agent Roger Wing, David Rosales etc. They are there to gather info and cover stuff up. That’s how it works.
Dave Rolph is a guy I’m still giving the benefit of the doubt to, but who knows. I communicate a lot with him privately and ask specific questions and he answers…but the answers many times differ from what has been reported to me by two or three other witnesses who worked with him regarding what he knows and what he’s been involved in.
Someone is lying, I hope it’s not him.
Alex, I still have faith in Dave Rolph. I truly believe that he is as he appears. He knows right from wrong and says it the way it is. Never have I heard otherwise about Dave.
Covered, wow … that must have been rough!
Over and over again, I find people/pastors can give a great sermon, a touching devotional, and have a winsome smile that makes you want to believe, and believe in, them. But the moment you barely touch on a tiny part of sin that is sticking up (like the tip of an iceberg) the response is an oozing out of green putrid sinful responses. I’m constantly amazed, or rather dumbfounded!
So as not to discourage everyone, I want to add that I’ve also been delightfully surprised at some men who really pastor their flock, know their flock, and serve their flock. By watching one man/pastor, in particular, I’ve been so encouraged as he walks in humility, lives a life that is really one of servanthood, and repents when needed. What a help it’s been to be able to watch this man reflect Jesus!
I should add that I don’t worship the man, just appreciate that I have had a chance to see someone walk the talk in such a healthy way. It helps me not to give up on all pastors.
Just want to make a note about Joe @ #110:
Joe wrote,
“Grateful,
Sorry I misused the word slander because of my ignorance that it implies something untrue. I was just trying to not to reuse the word gossip again. ”
I really appreciate and respect Joe being quick to acknowledge his misuse of the word slander. Oh, may God help us all to respond well when we are shown and error, small or large, so quickly, instead of the knee jerk reaction to dig our hole deeper by being defensive.
I’m left with an impression that you, Joe, mean well, are truly concerned for the Body of Christ, which is something I appreciate and join with you.
My guess is that you may have been taught a wrong biblical definition and application of the word gossip, as was I in times past. If so, then it might just take some time to let the blog post on gossip to sink in. We all want truth, and we all care about the body of Christ. As a matter-of-fact, we do care about Calvary Chapel leaders, as well as the CC abused, otherwise, we’d just put tape over our mouths and play in the Mormon stake houses.
To understand why sexual child abuse is rampant in America as well as the church, please
watch the following video that documents the dark beginnings of satanic infiltration after WW!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAvF23WvoUc&feature=player_embedded#!
Joe said, “If everything you have ever said was 100% true that still doesn’t justify gossip and bickering.”
Joe, I appreciate your acknowledging your misuse of the Universally Accepted and Scriptural Definition of “Slander”.
Please research the Scriptural Definition of “Gossip” as well….it’s not what you are presenting.
In response to the comments saying this site is ‘bad’ for Christianity:
YOU ARE THE PROBLEM OF CHRISTIANITY. STOP covering up the crap. I have been through the CC manipulation works based ‘grace’ bs!! I’m sick and tired of it. I know so many others bruised by it. And if people would actually ADMIT there’s a problem (or should I say “confess their sins”) then maybe just maybe a lot more people would want to “be back into the fold” but from what I’ve seen its a borderline cult with some really great people mixed into it and some have their head on straight but many are just plain confused and can’t see hypocrisy even if someone yelled “pharisee!”
C – O – U – R – A – G – E
That’s what it takes to put this blog up!
We too have hundreds of friends who have been divided because of so called pastors who have fallen from their call. We found this site by googling words, for us to begin our research. To our amazement, other fellow brethren who love God had either sexual abuse, stealing, their own children grown up in the church & sexually abused … Our once little ones They are now coming forward. This site has provided us information on how to try and handle what has happen! Complete devastation , hurting, lost, those who had been there for 20+ years. Good and loving Christians! Stop protecting so called pastors,
it’s the people who make the church, not the leaders. We too need and advocate.
Not everyone is called to be a watchman. However, some are. Do you remember Jeremiah in the Old Testament? God called him to tell the children of Israel the truth. The children of Israel did not want to hear the truth. The people hated Jeremiah. The people devised plans against Jeremiah. Does that make Jeremiah a bad guy because he was telling people what God had said?
Today, like in the past, when a watchman warns what is ahead, the people don’t want to hear it. They want to shoot the watchman or destroy the watchman with their words.
God’s Word should be our standard for truth!
Menwhocare77-
“it’s the people who make the church, not the leaders.”
Amen
Menwhocare77-
“it’s the people who make the church, not the leaders.”
I fully understand your heart in sharing this. I agree with most of the sentence…’its the people who make the church’… Leaders are necessary, true godly leaders. We cannot separate the people from the leaders. That is the tragedy of this crisis…it undermines the trust in pastoral leadership. There is a growing cynicism within the Church as a result of these things being tolerated. So let’s pray a blog like this will be used to cleanse or purge the Church of fraudulant pastors who bring reproach to the name of Christ.
Bob Coy sex abuse? Nothing like this ever happened. I question the authenticity of the person who first posted, they’re clearly trying to make CCFTL look bad. One thing I will say, all of you who worry about Coy and so forth, you start a church of your own, do what God has done in Bob’s life, bring as many strong christians to Jesus as he has and then come and criticize. It seems like you all feel it is some easy task to be a pastor of such a large church. Listen, Bob says a lot of things that are not popular, just because it doesn’t fit your shoe doesn’t mean that you should throw it in the garbage. You guys are not the standard and honestly Pastor Bob is not the standard either, so why are you all comparing yourselves to him. Do me a favor and instead of comparing yourselves to Bob, compare yourselves to God. He is the only standard.
Again there is nothing that you will find about a sex scandal with Bob Coy, clearly this was a sad attempt to debase Pastor Coy and it’s a lie. Sorry folks. Question his lessons all you want, criticize all you want, what I will say is this… this is why you are not up there preaching, and he is. Christianity is about building each other up not tearing anyone down. Until you learn that you will continue to do what you’re doing now, hiding behind a blog instead of proclaiming Jesus to the world. Best of luck in this sad endeavor.
Re: Jeff
The fist person who posted was not posting seriously. It’s over the top to make a point.
Your issue is not with those who’ve had personal experiences with any leader in CC (Bob Coy or otherwise,) who’ve seen a leader sin in a serious enough way that without repentance, they had to call them on it. Your issue lies with God, with the Scriptures, where we are told:
1 Timothy 5 “Those (pastors) who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning”
The issues on here are not about a disagreement with how these men choose to do their job, it’s about when they choose to sin in their job and then not repent, thereby disqualifying them from the biblical requirements to be in leadership. We can disqualify ourselves from leadership, and so can a leader whose already in a position.
Hello Alex,
The opportunity you have been given is tremendous. We will keep you in prayer. My story is long and details many on your list. For time constraints I will limit this post to the abbreviated version of Bob Coy. However, I am personally familiar with Lloyd Pulley, was heavily involved in the ministry at West Covina & Golden springs in the early 80′s, Dale Goddard was my accountability partner as he carried the position as Asst. Pastor.
I began to work at CCFL late spring of 2003 to April 2004. During that time I saw behavior associated to the staff that was seriously wrong. (I will avoid the issues with congregants due to the fact that all churches will have them.) I was in a position as a custodian.
My first issue was the print shop they had in the main building. It was owned and operated by a secular company. The space was offered in exchange for free printing of CCFL needs. (i.e. bulletins, etc.) They would listen to Howard Stern and play it loud enough to be easily heard throughout their area. Down the halls from this area is where they would counsel people on how to live. (Although many of the guys at these lower level positions came from the half way house program. I did not. It was literally God led.)
My second concern was dumping hazardous materials from the printing company into the trash. Having spent 15 years in the lithographic ink industry I was familiar with the dangers of this behavior. When I brought it to the attention of Jerry Sander’s (Bob’s brother in Law. By the way, it was required that his own brother in law refer to him as “Pastor Bob”.) He took it to his immediate supervisor. His name escapes me. I had provided him the regs. that I found online from the state of Florida. They took it to Bob. Later they had a meeting with me and told me that Bob knows what is happening and to pay no more attention to it. (If I am challenged on this info. it is necessary that any hazardous waste producer, such as a print shop, would have to give detailled information on the removal of their hazardous waste removal. When I was in the industry it cost about $450 for a 50 gal drum to be eliminated with detailled paperwork. Florida’s water table is near the surface. Their EPA regs. are strict. The church covering took them off the radar.) Initially, when I told the print company they said it would fall on Bob. They are right. Any corporation has to have a go-to-guy who is ready to go to prison for the wrongs of the organization. Bob was it.
The printer could print pretty much whatever they like. On one occasion we were summoned to the school yard asap. Apparently the printer had printed a cd cover with a provocatively dressed woman on it. They put the overages in the trash adjacent to the school play area that was in the middle of all the buildings. They failed to close the trash lid. The wind swept up and blew the pictures all over the school yard. We had to rush out and gather them up because the kids were finding them in the play area.
Being in the presence of the Calvary House guys was a blessing. After we built a relationship they would confide in me regarding the ills of the house. At which time I would give the standard issue answer, “You need to keep it in prayer.”
Because of my knowledge in the word and familiarity with old school CC. I became a growing threat. I counseled directly from the word and the men were coming to me more often then they would to the minister of the Calvary House. I didn’t intend for that to happen.
During this time I had established a relationship with a gentleman named Ken Kalen. He was on staff in the Spiritual Leadership Dept. under pastor Ginneralli (spelling is phonetic). I liked Ken and he became my accountability partner.
Under a system like Calvary’s everyone is always vying for position. So when someone comes in and is starting to stand out it becomes threatening. The shorter version of the story is that Jerry Sanders and John (last name escapes me) the minister of the Calvary House began slandering my name to the guys in the Calvary House. Suddenly a wall was built. I addressed Jerry and he admitted to the situation placing a, “I was concerned for you spin on it.” I told my situation to Ken avoiding names. He told me that according to Matt. 18 there is a process to follow. I met with John where he made false accusations against me, berated me and all the stories of the Calvary House guys came to light. Ken asked how my meeting had gone. I told him not well and said I needed to follow the second step. Since I knew of no one else, I asked if he would go with me. He agreed. Then I told him who. To his credit he didn’t change his mind.
We went to the meeting and Ken sat as an observer. Amazingly, John acted the same way. Ken sat quietly. We were clearly at a wall. When we got back into my car Ken said, “That was disturbing.” Immediately I thought I had done something wrong. He elaborated that John’s behavior was surprisingly improper. Ken said the decision was up to me, but the right thing to do was take it to the next level. I struggled with that, but made the decision to be obedient to the Lord and His word. During that time things became increasingly difficult.
One of the Calvary House guys continued to communicate with me. His name is Mike. (I won’t disclose his last name). He told me what had been happening from his side. That they were looking for ways to get rid of me and make it look like it was my fault. One other Calvary house Guy who graduated from the program had maintained a good relationship with his ex-wife. She divorced him due to his b.c. days. After he accepted the Lord she allowed him to visit regularly and spend time with his daughters (I won’t disclose his name.) He confirmed what Mike had told me. He invited my wife and me over to his wife’s home because he said he felt sorry for me. He said I couldn’t tell anyone. His wife hadn’t accepted the Lord and she carried disdain for the way the Calvary people had displayed themselves with such an attitude of self righteousness. He asked me not to mention the Lord that evening. I agreed. She brought up the subject with frustration. After talking to her for awhile and sharing the love of the Lord with her, tears welled up and she confessed her sins and gave her life to the Lord. He told me we couldn’t tell anyone what had happened even though he had been asking people to pray for her salvation. It would reveal that he had spent time with me.
Jerry and I ran across each other just outside of Bob’s office. He stopped me and asked what I thought I was doing. He appeared very frustrated. (His wife was Bob’s secretary, she grew very cold to me.) He then told me, “If you continue with what you are doing you are going to find yourself on the outs.” I told him, “If obeying the Lord puts me on the outs, I don’t want to be in.”
Finally I was summoned to Ken’s office. When I got there Ken, Mike, John, and Craig Houston (I believe that was his last name.) who was on staff and over Ken and John. He spoke and everyone listened. They stated that Mike supported John’s conclusions of me. (Whatever that meant.) I was told to keep my mouth shut and that the issue was over. Mike later told me that John threatened to not approve visitation to his child if they couldn’t see things the same way. But if they could, not only would he see his child, but he would be able to leave the program early. The church worked in concert with government agencies associated to these men’s lives so the threats were real.
Ken’s face expressed frustration. In his heart he would have had to conclude that what was being done was clearly against scripture. He guided me and was involved with what he saw. How does one deny their own witness?
The Lord opened doors for me to begin teaching out of a local bookstore. I shared this with Ken just before deciding that our relationship as accountability partners was done. He told me that it was necessary that I make the ministry aware of what I was doing, and that it come under the umbrella of CCFL. It was possible that they would decide someone else would teach. I resigned, gave two weeks and left.
I can assure you that this situation is not unique. And as encouraging as I want to be towards the results of the meeting Alex will have, the culture, the negative impact of it is systemic. It has created an environment that a change of the rules will not change the hearts.
God Bless to all those who are staying faithful to the lord and His word.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:17 (KJV)
Wow, unfortunately, I believe you as there are many similarities to the dynamics myself and many many others have experienced.
The ends justify the means? Seems to in CC, in general.
This is a sad truth. However, there is a ground swell of believers. It is exciting to see those who are understanding the difference between deception and truth. I pray that they continue to seek the Lord and enjoy what He will do in their lives.
RE: Grateful
At the end of the day, none of us knows truly what happens behind closed doors. When we cannot fix a situation sometimes we need to lean on what the bible says about forgiveness. This is why I mentioned the standard of God as opposed to the standard of man. This whole website seeks to condemn a man – when Jesus was already condemned for him 2000 years ago. My Step-Dad did some egregious things to me growing up, but my healing came from God’s word and my trust in God came in the form of knowing that I need not do anything to bring about justice. Justice is God’s alone. We are fallen creatures and are never satisfied with anything in this life. It’s our condition to S – I – N and one thing we are clearly never satisfied with is justice. The word says it’s HIS, not our justice. HIS judgements, not ours. Whatever Alex’s father did sounds wrong, but God knows this guys heart, He knows Alex’s heart, He holds Alex’s tears in a bottle [and trust me on this man, I cried the same tears many-a-time]. If we can’t move on, God cannot move. As followers of Jesus, we must use the word of God for one thing, to spread the gospel – not for personal vendettas. Regardless of what your parent does to you, the word of God tells us to honor them. Why obey this commandment in all circumstances? Because God knows better than we do and His plans for justice, judgement, healing and reconciliation go far beyond the precipice of human knowledge and emotion. You’d be hard pressed to find a condition behind the verses of honoring your parents and I think we need to heed God’s word over justice on our terms. If we try to seek out justice then this is pure humanistic justice, not God’s justice. And humanism rejects God completely.
Jeff, I appreciate what you are saying here and agree. Except…..what does the Lord require of you? Micah 6:8 says to do what is right, act justly, do justice. Just because we are followers of Christ does not mean that when we see a wrong that we just forgive and do nothing about it. So many christians think we should just close our eyes and let God take care of it. That is faulty reasoning. God requires certain guidelines for pastor/teachers and when we ignore that there are severe consequences to our reputation in the world. We are not to sit back and allow this kind of thing to go on in the church.
A true man of God who loves the sheep would have stepped down already whether these accusations were true or not. His love for the people of God would have compelled him to remove himself before anyone else was hurt. Behind the curtain, Bob G. treats his staff and congregants like he is king and they are dirt. He has no compassion or love for them. It’s horrific that his board would be complicit with this and they carry the blame, also.
As believers and followers of Christ we have a responsibility to do what is right……that is justice.
Summer- Please join us in prayer today on the prayer thread.
Chuck Smith says in “How Grace changes everything” Page 131
“The biblical prescription for resolving the conflict between the flesh and the Spirit is not personal discipline or self-control. It is the power of the Holy Spirit.
Page 169
” In my moment of weakness, the Spirit raises up conviction and power and my mind is turned toward the Lord”
Praying today for Mr Smith to be convicted by the Holy Spirit and do the right thing and make good on his word to contact Alex.
Re: Jeff @ 140 said,
“At the end of the day, none of us knows truly what happens behind closed doors.”
On the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses a charge can be established against an elder/pastor/leader. 1Timothy 5:19 In Bob Grenier’s case, the charges have been established with witnesses.
Jeff said, “… This is why I mentioned the standard of God as opposed to the standard of man.”
The standard of God includes:
* Micah 6:8 to do justice.
* Matthew 18:15-18 where we are told to warn the church.
* We have Jesus’ example of calling the Pharisees on their unrepentant sin, and not very nicely, I might add. Matthew 21:12 , and we are to be like Jesus, who set an example for us on how to live.
* We are to hate evil, God likes us to do that. Hebrews 1:9
* When an elder/pastor/leader doesn’t qualify for ministry, they are not to serve in a leadership position. 1Timothy 3:1-7 God uses his people to obey him and remove the unrepentant leader.
Jeff, if your child was raped by a man, would it be better for your daughter to just forgive him and give him a free pass to do it to another girl? Or would it be better for her to press charges and keep him from being able to do it to someone else?
Bob Grenier’s sins did not just stop with his sons moving out of the house, according to former CCV attenders, his sin continues to this day. Bob still needs to deal with the sin he’s committed against his sons, regardless.
This is not revenge. This is biblical obedience to call an unrepentant child abuser -possibly molester- into account and to warn the church (locally and universally.) This is to protect the sheep, which is loving thy neighbor.
Alex, I have one in moderation.
RE: Summer
I unfortunately disagree with your usage of scripture here Summer – I won’t get to into it too much. What you wrote above is an exegetical fallacy and what is being said here in Micah is being systematically taken out of context on your part. The book of Micah is full of Messianic prophecies and promises, but they start out with lamentations and visions of punishment for the sins of Israel ending with an ultimate crescendo of a messianic prophecy. And it is not true to God’s message to read it in any other way. This was part of a prophecy in a time when God’s creation had one connection with God, which was The Ten Commandments and the law of Moses. The day in which Micah lived was wrought with the same judaic attitudes of the Hebrews that wandered for 40 years.
Which included – zero gratitude for all God had given them, dishonest behavior, idolatry, and believe it or not, misuse of God’s word. The second half of the chapter is the punishment that they will receive, however the segment you use in your statement is part of (in my view) a Messianic prophecy and an exhortation of sorts for what God expects of Israel. The Messianic part of it is sort of a question and answer type of idea, vs 7 Micah is asking, will the people of Israel have to give their first born child to be forgiven of these aforementioned sins? God answers that plea with an obvious NO, because He is going to give His Child to forgive all for their sins, ****the bible connects to the bible****
Moving further, on to verse 8 the prophecy speaks of what Israel is to do for the time being, which is simple – to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. Sort of a Pauline type of criticism here like to the Galatians.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God? ”
Now as for an AWESOME reference about what these things mean I’d go to a couple of places. 3 books which give biblical commentaries, “Telling God’s Story” by Preben Vang (my Exploring the bible professor in college), “Halley’s Guide to the Bible”, and “The Adam Clarke Commentary on the Bible”.
Justly – means to give all what is due to them.
Or as The Adam Clarke Commentary says “To do justly; to give to all their due”.
1. To God his due; thy heart, thy body, soul, and spirit; thy wisdom, understanding, judgment. “To love him with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength, and thy neighbour as thyself.” This is God’s due and right from every man.
2. Thou art to give thy neighbour his due; to do to him as thou wouldst that he should do to thee, never working ill to him.
3. Thou art to give to thyself thy due; not to deprive thy soul of what God has provided for it; to keep thy body in temperance, sobriety, and chastity; avoiding all excesses, both in action and passion.
These writings are very helpful for formulating what the context of the scripture is and helps us understand what God means in these types of prophecies. I don’t mean to put down what you were saying. Adam Clarke was a smart guy and shows here that the trueness of scripture here is that we give it all to God first and only love our neighbor and do no ill to him. You can read the rest in this link copying and pasting it is just silly.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mic&chapter=006
I feel people need to know that this is not what God means for us by this prophecy. In fact it goes in line more with what I was saying; and I say this with all humility. I mean no harm to you Summer, I just believe the bible in general, is muddled in a lot of ways by christians today – which gives us zero credibility when preaching the gospel.
I write out of love for you and all my brothers and sisters in the body. Micah 6:8 is saying to give it all to God first and to put off ill will towards our brethren and to do justly by obeying God’s commandments, one of which (#5) is Honor you Mother and Father, with no conditions attached.
Jeff:
Your #135″ Christianity is about building each other up not tearing anyone down. Until you learn that you will continue to do what you’re doing now, hiding behind a blog instead of proclaiming Jesus to the world. Best of luck in this sad endeavor.”
I don’t know if you are talking about anyone in particular, because you use the word “folks”, but I don’t believe that I am hiding behind a blog. I proclaim Jesus to as many people as I can and pray every day that I would have divine appointments. So I don’t feel that it is fair for you to criticize us unless you know our lives. We are here to build eachother up. If you have been here for awhile you would know that. We are praying, and supporting one another. Some have been deeply wounded by men that others worship.
Jeff @ 140 said,
“At the end of the day, none of us knows truly what happens behind closed doors.”
This is so true.
Would anyone think that a Pastor could be preaching the gospel in the morning, and beating his kids at night? Can you imagine how hard it is to be the child of a Pastor and pretend your dad is a spiritual giant? All I ask is that you are open minded to what others have experienced. There is much pain and suffering for some.
Jeff,
First let me thank you for supporting your opposing view with your/professor’s take on the passage. I am not in agreement with your/his conclusions, but sincerely appreciate your respectful approach.
The passage on Micah is text book seminary. It attempts to marginalize the text to that given writing. The views on the word “justly” are incorrect. They would better be suited to the word “mercy”. Micah’s statement communicates the immutability of God’s desire to have a relationship with man, OT and NT alike. In Gen. 18 it states, “Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.” The word “Judgement” is the same as Micah’s justly. The errors of the Micah conclusion being after the 10 Commandments is void due to the Lord’s recognition of Abraham’s behaviour. He is the father of our “faith”. Furthermore, your attachment of Micah’s recognition of the ills of Israel helps to support the conclusions of this site based upon 1 Cor. 10, “1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor 10:1-12 (KJV) Paul brings direct correlation between Israel’s behaviour and God’s response and NT believers and Christ’s response. Its hard to refute. Take note of “example and admonition” I could go on but time doesn’t permit.
Let me say again, I deeply appreciate your sincerety and humility in expressing your views.
My experience at Calvary Chapel has been overall good. I have learned much more than I could have ever imagined.
I went through a traumatic experience last year, where a half sister told me Pastor Bob was a scam artist, that my friends at Calvary were not friend and that I was not a true christian (she does not attend church nor will she ever)
My Mom was dying on hospice, we shared a Birthday, I stayed up all night looking after her while the half sister slept. I did get some sleep for a couple of hours, only to wake up to the half sister telling me that I was a fake, people hated me, Pastor Bob had a birthday party for me and my Doctor was going to change my brain and the family would have to watch, my car keys disappeared during this torment from her, she said you can’t go home. She asked me who was more important, God or my mother, I said God, sheflipped out. I finally left the house, ran out of gas, with no cell phone, Fort Lauderdale police came to my car ordered me out, started going through everything, When they called her to pick me up, the problem for me started. they handcuffed me brutalized me started down 95 , laughing all the way making fun of me. I was locked away for the weekend. My Mother died one week later. It was the worst nightmare of my life. I called pastor bob, he never returned a call. I have been injured and broken. The bitterness that a manipulative sibling could bring to get rid of me, for her own greed and the fact that my friends wanted to know what my pastor had to say, I’m embarrased to say, he said nothing. I have looked for other churches in the area
Donna,
That is a sad situation indeed. The lord will lead you to the right place. With all do respect, your sisters sounds like she has issues.
Donna, so sorry for the pain you have endured. I hope you do find a good place to go to church. There are a lot of churches out there that truly do have caring and loving people and leaders in them where you will not be treated that way.
If I could say anything to Bob Coy it would be thank you. Thank you for being an inspiration to my daughter.For keeping her eyes nit upon you but upon Jesus thru His Word Keep preaching and teaching the Word Bob. Thanks
Reasoning faith
I am happy to hear of your positive experience. You must know Bob very well.
Way to go Joe Fisher! Finally someone speaking the truth in love. I was saddened by all of the sarcastic and hateful responses to Joe. Joe is right. All you pounced on him because he didn’t agree with you. You can’t stand it, huh? Alex, you started it all by saying Bob allegedly beat you. But you had to take it one step further, then another step further until you couldn’t stop but let your real heart out and slander any CC pastors or people who disagree with you. Why continue the hate? Is this really helping the body of Christ? Are you speaking “only what is helpful for building others up.’?
The problem with Donna, or derrik or any of the rest of you is you are all
1. being taught heresy in several key doctrines
2. are all blinded to the fact that you are in a very skewed church movement.
Mormons think they are loved, huindus think they are loved, buddist think they are loved.
I have 20 years of experience with multiple calvary pastors and they are all similar. It really doesnt matter that you think “your” calvary pastor is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Your still being taught heresy, spiritual price and to be a little clone of Chuck Smith wether you realize it or not.
later tonight ill make a more detailed response to this,
All I can say is when you decide to wake up, smell the coffee, and let go of Coy and all of CC’s HATEFUL teachings you can expect NO response from him. Not Coy, Fidel, ANYONE! I am SOOOOO Happy though! FREE from the guilt bullshit. FREE from it all!!! I’m embarrassed I drank the kool-aid, but I’ll get over that some day. After all, Bob IS a great speaker. No doubt about that. Too bad it’s all BS!
ex-christian.net is the BEST site ever for anyone who’s recovering!!!
It is my prayer that no one will confuse abusive pastors, or pastors who lack love and respect for the sheep, with Jesus.
Jesus is still the Son of God, the maker of Heaven and Earth, the Alpha and the Omega, and the One who willingly sacrificed Himself to pay for my sins. He’s still the One who rose from the dead!
Spiritual abuse is something God hates … but thankfully, He uses it and other sufferings we go through to make us more like Him, because His plan for us has our best interest at heart! He just has a much greater perspective than we do, as we only see through a dark glass right now.
“my” sins … is also …”our” sins
Grateful,
Well stated!! Sadly, we complain about the behaviors of these men and fail to recognize that it is our willful ignorance that allows them to succeed. Jesus rebukes the deeds of the Nicolaitans and applauds the church of Ephesus for recognizing them and not tolerating it. An abandonment of one’s faith is a terrible mistake. Why will I risk going to hell becuase Bob Coy’s, or any pastor for that matter, actions better represent the south end of a north bound mule.
“… the south end of a north bound mule.” –Raymond D.
That’s a good one!
Would love to hear more about how the CCFL judge and friend of Bob C. (who attended, supported and served at CCFL) was herself abused. Did she feel obligated/in authority to pastor Bob C. to stay on the the sex abuse case vs. recusing herself as required by law? I believe she should have taken the high road and recused herself and maybe the new judge would still have found for CCFL imho….I’d have to read their motion for summary judgment to see if there were indeed no “genuine issues of material fact” which last time I checked is the standard for granting such a motion.
“His comment is too over the top to be legit. I certainly hope this is not the way that church functions. Seems like a reality show comment.”
WA, actually that comment is not over the top. Bob C. things over the top as evidenced by the 25K promotion giveaway campaign, $103 million in pledges to build new sanctuary, restaurant, skate park, printery, kiosks etc etc on the premises of Bob’s empire.
He spares no expense to make sometimes trivial self-serving/aggrandizing abiblical points and strut his stuff….flex his muscles…. for seemingly prideful, non-God-honoring reasons.
This is perhaps the best site for exposing CC corruption. Keep up the good fight and you’ll hear well done my good and faithful servant!
Pesky server problems.
Out
“Bob C. things over the top” should read
“Bob C. does things over the top”
Shouldve posted my first comment over here not sure if admin can import it along with a bunch of others I found all over the site
In the 33 years I’ve been a believer in Jesus Christ, I’ve been a member of three churches. I also worshipped at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale for 12 years, leaving in 2005. I have been a member of a PCA congregation since then.
If you were abused, then you have only one recourse and that is to deal with it through the secular courts. If other crimes were committed, they would be dealt with the same way.
File a complaint with the State Attorney’s office against your abuser. Let the authorities determine whether there is a criminal case or not. Government was established by God to protect us. Use civil and/or criminal law for the purpose it was intended.
If you choose not to do that, or if the State Attorney’s office does not pursue the case, then let it go, my brother in Christ. Let it go.
Forgive them, and intercede for the blind. Ask that God’s will be done in the lives of all concerned and that truth prevail. Then wait upon the Lord.
I would suggest that everything beyond that is a distraction from God’s plan and purpose for your life. It is a temptation to commit reactionary sin in retaliation to what was done to you.
You are 100% not responsible before God for those things that were said and done to you when you were a child. Parents are 100% responsible for protecting and nurturing their children.
You are 100% responsible before God for the things that you have said and done as an adult.
Deal with this issue, once and for all, and be done with it. Then go and make disciples, or whatever it is that God has called you to do, with both your eyes focused on Jesus. Don’t worry about what other “believers” are doing, or not ~ you will have done your part once you’ve spoken the truth, exposed the corruption you witnessed, and sought to right the wrong.
Jesus invited people to taste and see that the Lord is good. He showed His authority in the Temple to the religious authorities of that day when He threw out the money changers. The New Testament acknowledges authorities inside and outside the church who take care of matters that cannot be resolved between individuals. Private is best, but sometimes it is not possible and has to be brought before a larger audience.
To accuse in a public forum (like the internet) is not Biblical, nor is inviting the criticism and/or complaints of others. I urge you to take the appropriate LEGAL action geared toward resolution of the issues that have not been resolved privately. There are proper ways to handle these things ~ and this isn’t it.
God is sovereign and He is in control. Romans 8:28 is sometimes a hard truth, but it is truth nonetheless.
There is actually a BIBLICAL mandate to treat as pagans (enemies of God) and tax collectors (Jews who for all intents and purposes would betray their own communities to work for the Romans using subversion and strong arm tactics to collect taxes and more often than not stole large percentages above and beyond what the Romans required and kept it for themselves)…and throw to the dogs those CC pastors like Bob Coy who refused to use the Matt 18 3-step approach to biblical reconciliation. Ask Jerry Sander and others from CCFTL about hunting dogs appearing out of nowhere and chasing after the facilitators/enablers/supporters of corruption and abuse that are the assistant pastors to the abusive and authoritarian senior pastor. I submit those were some Divinely appointed sin-sniffing dogs from God (dog spelled backwards = God) sent as a warning because that’s how you have allowed/permitted Him to deal with you as you have governed OT style with vengeful wrath. You can’t make this stuff up. Truth is stranger than fiction. Calling John Grisham.
Yes, God will deal with wicked stiff necked CC pastors like he did Pharaoh to get their attention and obeisance. To the crooked/crafty/fraudulent/devious CC pastors who govern OT heavy-handed strong arm style God will deal with and show himself shrewd/clever/unsavory/froward/hostile as they have done to His Sheep. Psalms 18:26 and 2 Samuel 22:27.
do you know were all the dogs rotties?
After reading some of these comments I would have to say that, Alex, I understand that you have had a really bad experience with Calvary Chapel. However, I do not think that the CC pastors are all about money and the intended manipulation you imply. I know there is corruption in every organized Christian denomination, not just Calvary. I have been attending Calvary Chapel for 22 years. I have had some not so pleasant experiences, but we are also dealing with people here. Your step father should be removed, not doubt there. This is beyond comprehension, I dont even know how he could sleep at night, some serious mental delusion there. However, I love Chuck Smith and if he is making a mistake in this, I believe he is a sincere man and is doing it sincerely believing what he is doing is right. He is not the enemy here. He is also right about your bitterness, be careful with that. You may find your step father may be able to take more from you through bitterness than he already has. Take care.
Kim,
So many have shared stories on here and person to person that have a lot in common. When I first read here, I thought many were telling my story … just changed the names and places. It’s this striking similarity in our stories that first alerted us to the fact that these issues are systemic in Calvary Chapel.
The suspicion of the issues being systemic is further supported when one reads the Distinctives as well as the info used to train CC assistant pastors and pastors.
Confirmation comes when one sees the flow chart of the organization, a.k.a. the Moses Model. One only needs common sense to realize that no one, absolutely no one, including Chuck Smith, can operate without any accountability, with that much money, and that much power and not be corrupted by it all.
My 20 years of CC, 3 churches, 3 pastors, and all the consistent systemic issues shows the problems come from a source of their training. Other church issues I’ve seen are just people problems and don’t fall into the systemic lack of accountability category. Those are two different animals. As long as a church has a system whereby we can resolve the issue, eventually, then it’s just normal people problems. But when all avenues of resolving sin issues is blocked, no accountability, then it’s an organizational problem … like CC has.
Grateful,
Why do you suppose that the heathens “outside” the church can understand what you stated in your post, yet the believers, who are supposed to be led by the Holy Spirit, can’t (or won’t)?
I ask this, really believing that there are so many professing believers who are deceived.
I understand that probably 98% don’t even know about the Moses Model, but those who you sahre with don’t even seem to “get it”.
Could it be that they choose to turn a deaf ear?
Either we are the ones with the problems for seeing what is the obvious, or we are supposed to just throw everything we learn under the rug in the name of “love”.
sahre=share
Re: Hannah
We’ve shared the Moses Model with a couple elders who could not believe that was the structure of the church. We reminded them it was in their own training materials. One flat out denied that that’s the way it is, then upon further discussion agreed that is the structure; however, neither could wrap their minds around it because the ramifications cost too much. It wasn’t that they chose to be in denial, but the truth was too costly.
How does one acknowledge that all his sacrificial giving of his/her time, money, and efforts were to a structure that was flawed at it’s core? How does one wrap their mind around their hero, Chuck Smith, or their pastor, is not as clean as one had thought? How does one admit to their friends that the place they so highly talked up and defended is actually … not so good after all?
People need time … the seeds have to germinate. But they will …
Grateful “People need time … the seeds have to germinate. But they will …”
I need some of your kinda faith.
To me it seems according to the NT that things are just going to get worse instead of better.
Perhaps I need to germinate my mustard seed.
Hannah I think your mustard seed is germinating just nicely- you had the faith to trust in Him by leaving what you knew was wrong.
Just keep in there and He promises us He will keep us in His Hand.
By the way Hannah this has nothing to do with Calvary Chapel Abuse, but does have to do with the widespread abuse in the “Christian” world. Thought you might find interesting what is going on in this parachurch organization – look at http://www.recoveringalumni.com.
By the way Hannah this has nothing to do with Calvary Chapel Abuse, but does have to do with the widespread abuse in the “Christian” world. Thought you might find interesting what is going on in this parachurch organization – look at http://www.recoveringalumni.com. and what kind of abuse our younger generations are going through.
Sorry for the repeat.
Hannah, I expect the seed to germinate in the people we spoke with because they appear to have a genuine desire to truly follow Christ and have noticed other things that are wrong. One resigned as elder due to problems with the pastor, while the other one was instrumental in having the pastor removed.
We were just trying to help them connect the dots in how Calvary Chapel as a whole has systemic issues, so to simply put another CC associated/affiliated pastor in just brings back the lack of accountability that ruined the first pastor. It’ll be deja vous all over again.
“do you know were all the dogs rotties?”
no
a better question is who let the dogs out?
i contend God did and Bob Coy thinks the devil did which begs the question why is God allowing/causing the devil to sick his dogs on CCFTL pastors? Or for all the other bad stuff that’s happened to them that Bob claims is the work of the devil….why is God allowing it and why doesn’t He stop it etc….
Kim wrote “However, I love Chuck Smith and if he is making a mistake in this, I believe he is a sincere man and is doing it sincerely believing what he is doing is right.”
The evidence is that he is doing exactly what is wrong and no matter whether he thinks he is doing right or wrong, he is doing wrong.
How should we describe someone who does what is wrong and justifies it? At the very least such a person is self-deluded.
@162: “If you were abused, then you have only one recourse and that is to deal with it through the secular courts. If other crimes were committed, they would be dealt with the same way.”
Your suggestion does not work with Moses Model CC pastors like Bob Coy who is known to form “nefarious alliances” with members of law enforcement “including the judiciary” to exact vengeance and harm upon the sheep and to silence whistle blowers in order to protect assets, good surface reputation etc…
I submit that CC acts more like a church-like cult v. cult-like church…..big difference….with a distinction.
Sorry, you sound like a CCFTL plant.
Grateful- I am so glad that you are making a difference in exposing the darkness for these folks. It sounds liek a real ministry.
Would you ever have suspected that God would use you like this? You must be “grateful” (no pun intended!). You are making a difference!
Stopitnow-
So glad you addressed the “dog rotties” post because I have spent many hours pondering that! (still don’t get it.
Yeah-They call everything against them evil, even when it is obvious that the Lord is using others to call them to repent. They just won’t recieve the discipline but they can sure dish it out.
I think many are so afraid of talking about anything negative about their CC because it has been beaten into their heads to not “judge”. I can’t tell you how many times I heard about the “plank” in my eye. I remember also being constantly warned about not sending the Pastor any negative e-mails. It is sad that when someone felt called to send the Pastor an e-mail, perhaps about something of the sermon, etc., if it didn’t completely raise him up, he would talk negatively about the e-mails from the pulpit. Kind for a warning for others. How else can you get in touch with him? In the beginning, he was approachable, and then later things changed.
Those alliances with law enforcement are definitely intimidating.
Stopitnow-
“I submit that CC acts more like a church-like cult v. cult-like church”
I am going to use this a lot!
I think that Chuck Smith is doing what is wrong in this case. I do believe there should be accountablilty at the pastor levels of Calvary Chapels. One thing I find lacking form this website however is what I believe is a sin on the part of Alex. I know and believe Alex’s account of abuse, trust me. I also beleive denying the problem by Pastor Chuck is wrong as well. However, Alex has made his point. At this stage the only thing I see from his is a desire for revenge. I believe he feels frustrated at not being heard, I get that. I admire his willingness to confront this thing in the only way he feels he can. But he is full of bitterness and where is his faith in God to provide justice. How far is he going to take this. Untill his step dad is destroyed? FIne, if that makes him feel good. Personally, I think he has shared with the world his desire, now let God take it from there. He just rants on and on, and half the stuff is in my opinion a bunch of lies as far as CC pastors. Remember, these pastors make many sacrifices as well. They got into this ministry hopefully, as a calling form God. YOu have to have some trust. Yes, some will let us down, but there are many who wont. I hope for justice for Alex and his family and I hope BOb will be removed, but dont attack every Calvary Chapel pastor out there. Whatever happend to trusting God not man?? What can you do to help your pastor, are you praying for them to stay pure, to stand in the battle? Seems like alot of gripping here and ranting.
Kim said,
“… half the stuff is in my opinion a bunch of lies as far as CC pastors.”
Is my story about what my pastor did a lie? If not, then whose story is a lie? And how do you know someone is lying?
Why would so many from so many different places, so many different churches, and so many of the same issues be represented by so many people?
God uses people.
We are to obey Scripture.
Scripture tells us: 1Corinthians 5:1-13
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Sounds pretty clear … WE … the people … have a responsibility to expel the wicked man from fellowship. This IS OBEYING Scripture, obeying God.
What am I missing here? Why do you tell Alex to just trust God and no longer speak out against the corruption? We must continue to speak out against the corruption. We did and our last CC pastor was removed. That is the mercy of God to give a man a chance to deal with things on this side of heaven. Through such severe mercy, man can have a wonderful opportunity to get back to peace, back to Jesus, and back to realigned priorities. That is a blessing!
It appears that Alex is trusting God by believing his Word and obeying it!
My journey with Heavenly Father has led me away from ALL man made religion, and in my case, from Calvary Chapel Old Bridge. There is much that I could say but it all boils down to this… is Jesus central to a CC or is the pastor? How does a congregant exercise their God-given gifting when the pastor leads every service and speaks for God? Last time I checked, Jesus is the head of the body, not the pastor.
Do CC pastors (including Chuck Smith), have all the best intentions when starting in their ministries… the charitable part of me says of course! But given the nature of man and how an ORGANIZATION grows and what it needs to survive, sooner or later I think pastors need to make decisions that are both counter to their hearts (and Love) and counter to what Christ’s vision for His church was… simply loving one another… this doesn’t require either a building or an organization. Christianity is not what Jesus came to earth to build…. His purpose from the beginning of time was to bring us back into reconciliation with the Trinity.. and to walk within that wonderful circle of Love.
Where any abuse occurs it should be reported to the authorities… whether financial, physical or sexual. It’s time for the Body to rise up against the abuse, wherever it presents itself.
I pray Alex continues to address abuse until he and Father no longer feel it is necessary… my prayer for Alex and all those that read here is they find a intimate relationship with Father, Son and Holy Spirit that surrounds them with love, that they may also share the overflow!
Blessings to you all
I have it on good authority that Bob Coy’s been cyberstalking a Christian lady who left CCFTL going on 8 years now who he’s been spiritually and emotionally abusing consistently for the same length of time. Most recently on eBay: there’s been heated exchanges thru the eBay messaging system, negative feedbacks left, ending of listings, letting accounts go dormant etc… (all documented with screen shots to boot). Sad part is Coy has been asked….no begged repeatedly to stop what she calls harrassing, oppressive and abusive behavior. He just blows it off and talk about his ‘good works’ either out of guilt, to throw off suspicion or to justify the secretly self-satisfying/gratifying ‘bad works’ that few know about….his dark side….very dark, ugly and sinful even as he continues his pulpit ministry.
@180 “I submit that CC acts more like a church-like cult v. cult-like church”
I am going to use this a lot!
—————————–
Promise?
@179
Stopitnow-
So glad you addressed the “dog rotties” post because I have spent many hours pondering that! (still don’t get it.
Yeah-They call everything against them evil, even when it is obvious that the Lord is using others to call them to repent. They just won’t recieve the discipline but they can sure dish it out.
————————————————-
Rottie = 1 Rottweiler
Rotties = more than 1 Rottweiler
They’re used in search and rescue, as guide dogs for the blind, as guard or police dogs. Good dogs, God’s dogs.
http://www.rottweiler-dog-breed-store.com/images/large/rottweiler-leather-dog-harness-padded-walking-harness_LRG.jpg
BC may be fooling some people but one thing’s for sure, he is not fooling
Judge God who sees thru his flagrant disregard for the law and decency resolving conflicts. I’ve grown so weary of trickery, deception and winning by ambush taking precedent over the law.
Declaring war on your critics and expressing your fleshly desire to
“pick a fight” with them, figting them on all fronts trying to win by ambush
and hoping to enlist help from the God with a public laying on of hands to
receive baptism of the Holy Spirit… so you can satisfy your fleshly and prideful
desires? Seriously dude? This is the Moses Model? Good luck with that one.
Though I live in Orlando, I have attended Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale on multiple occasions, primarily motivated to accompany my sisters-in-law who were strident supporters of Calvary Chapel, Bob Coy, and the other pastors who serve the church. These ladies served for several years as volunteers in the church’s “Information Booth”, in the “Parking Ministry”, in the “Singles Ministry”, and in the church choir. They volunteered countless hours helping to push brooms when the megasanctuary was being built. They baked and cooked for the construction workers. They joined missions trips to Uganda, Fiji, and Mississippi. They have taken in homeless drug abusers referred by the church into their condos to give them a temporary place to stay (did the church help out financially? No, they were told to, “pray about it.” I’ve said all of this demonstrate that these ladies bought into the Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale program hook, line and sinker and that by virtue of having attended a dozen or so sermons over the years and seeing the “fruits” of this church, I have a reasonably independent viewpoint.
Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale is a “harvesting church” in which each of the 3 Sunday morning services allocate approximately an hour and a quarter to singing, delivery of humanistic jokes and commentaries, and an altar call. About 15 minutes is devoted to Bible study. It’s a really great entertaining and “feel-good” show with lots of audience “Jesus is great, Amen? Amen!” participatory responses. To me, it all feels very cult-like and employs brainwashing techniques that left the ladies exclaiming, “Isn’t Bob Coy a great speaker? Didn’t you just ENJOY the sermon?”. No, actually, I had hoped for a little more Biblical meat on the bone and less of a feel-good entertainment show. There was the one Easter sermon (not the one in the stadium, though) in which Pastor Bob described the ripping of Jesus’ flesh in horrific detail. The common thread is to always generate emotion, most often “feel good”. Bob Coy loves to stereotype how “the guys” versus “the girls” typically behave (e.g., “Guys, if you want more time in the bedroom, you need to spend more time in the kitchen”)…. all while cute, funny and entertaining wouldn’t be so bad, except that that’s about as deep as the message ever got before the altar call started. I feel like Bob Coy’s sermons are stuck in first gear and are purposefully intended to arouse feel-good emotions, and especially appeal to emotionally vulnerable and hurting.. Such appeals appear to work especially well for women and there are words I heard used for this, including “Coy-ites” or “Calvary-ites” to refer to the unquestioning acolytes of “Pastor Bob” and his church, respectively.
One of my sister-in-laws dated a staffer in the church who had been nominated to become a deacon or elder (or whatever else they call it). I researched this guy and found out that he dated my sister-in-law while he was still married and going through divorce proceedings. She complained to the church and, while he didn’t make deacon, he kept his employment until he resigned.
Calvary Chapel has no “memberships” so you can’t join. While that is often-touted by Bob Coy in his altar call (“Making the decision to become a Christian isn’t about joining the Church – we don’t even have memberships…) the truth is that by not having memberships the church does not need, under Florida law, to be financially accountable to its members. In fact, you’ll never see a statement of sources and uses of funds or any financial accountability or statements — they are simply not disclosed.
The “Cafeteria Ministry”, the “Parking Ministry”, the “Printing Ministry”, the 5-6-or-7 other “satellite churches” that Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale owns and/or controls, the numerous for-profit office buildings, the radio station should, in my opinion, all be the subject of a massive IRS audit, except that the IRS would probably be outgunned by the money of this church.
Two thousand years ago, Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers in the Temple. It is my opinion that, if he were walking the earth today, that Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale would be one of his encore stops.
Well said, Paul!
I know that one of Bob Coy’s accusers sent him a letter around 6-7 years ago (by FedEx) seeking conflict resolution in the presence of a mediator with accountability partners/witnesses present. I read the letter a while back and it was 1 page long and very well written, sincere and my recollection is it did not have an accusatory tone after many revisions. Bob Coy’s buddy Rod Pearcy called her I believe the very next day after he got the letter. The essence of his phone call was essentially a lie that Bob Coy didn’t have a clue who she was and that both Rod and Bob wondered if she made a mistake and contacted the wrong church/pastor!
I believe the purpose of Rod’s phone call was to cause brain failure and make the lady go go out of her mind, or sink under the trials she had passed and those which awaited her. Thank God for putting a hedge of protection around her.
Psalm 91:
“13 You will trample upon lions and cobras;you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet! 14 The Lord says, “I will rescue those who love me. I will protect those who trust in my name.”
Bob Coy has withheld a lot of the essential details to put her in a bad light. He’s labeled her as being angry, bitter, loose canon, backslidden, unsaved, demon possessed, demonized in an attempt to diminish her credibility, mitigate his sins and garner support against her using his influence, ‘power’ and $millions of the church’s money vs. his own. His latest strategy is to convince as many people as possible that she is some kind of w*tch or s0rcerer which would be very funny if this wasn’t so serious.
Based on my experience, I can say you never ever ever should believe just one side of a story no matter how compelling it sounds or how influential the speaker until you hear the other side. If she/Bob (or a rep) feel led to come on here or other website and share more details and even upload the letter + tracking, I think it should be done only after seeking the Lord. It struck me as both inappropriate and revelatory that Bob had his best friend Rod call her instead of say a sister.
stopitnow “I know that one of Bob Coy’s accusers sent him a letter around 6-7 years ago (by FedEx) seeking conflict resolution in the presence of a mediator with accountability partners/witnesses present.”
What could have happened between them to warrant this kind of action?
It is curious to me, because so many of the Pastors that are highly charismatic, and charm the women (which is what essentially grows the church in leaps and bounds),,,,, also seem to also have tremendous conflicts with them when they are discerning and bold.
Hannah- isn’t that the truth. Somehow women in the mix, whether for the good or for the bad, always seems to cause some kind of reaction.
Yeah FG…d+mned if we do, d+mned if we don’t..a no win situation, huh?
Trying to stay away from negativity….less involvement on this blog too!
Trying to see the good in this world…outside the “church” that is….
You know what is funny about that “looking for the good outside the church” is I am actually finding a lot of good things! I am also finding my perspective has changed greatly. I was really in a bubble when I was in the church institution and now that I have been out of it the freedom is well….freeing. I have more of a desire to share the gospel and Christ. I find that my love for Christ and others is growing. It is not at all what I was fearing or what others said would happen to me if I left. It is lonely yes, and I do not want to stay away from fellowship with other Christians, but I can’t go back into a church building right now without looking at it differently. I will have to let the Lord heal me in that area.
stopitnow “I know that one of Bob Coy’s accusers sent him a letter around 6-7 years ago (by FedEx) seeking conflict resolution in the presence of a mediator with accountability partners/witnesses present.”
Hannan said: What could have happened between them to warrant this kind of action?
It is curious to me, because so many of the Pastors that are highly charismatic, and charm the women (which is what essentially grows the church in leaps and bounds),,,,, also seem to also have tremendous conflicts with them when they are discerning and bold.
———————————————–
I think she is discerning and bold and many CCs have a problem with “discerning and bold” in a man much less a woman. My understanding is she had been exchanging emails with CCFTL leaders with no success and she met with a senior accountability partner who told her to stop the emails and send a personal letter instead, She had 3 people read the letter….guess that didn’t work.
I think it was inappropriate for Bob Coy’s best friend Rod Pearcy to call her vs. a sister because it guaranteed the issues would not be dealt with biblically given that Rod’s mission was to perpetrate the lie that Bob didn’t know who she was…she’s confusing him with another pastor etc…Bob would have to plunge into a moral abyss of spiritual darkness and despair to so disrespect a woman as to involve her in pulling such a hellish stunt.
@197 I’m really glad you got saved. I know many people who got saved at CCFTL then left to find a church where the bible was taught and interpreted properly and the pastor is held accountable. My golf buddy went to CCFTL to find his wife, took her from that place and headed for another local church where they’re happily married attending a healthy church. No we don’t expect Christians to be perfect but we do expect the pastor to be above reproach which is not to be confused with being perfect.
I don’t hear you denying that Bob coy had Rod Pearcy lie to the lady in hopes she’d go away and keep silent or go out of her mind, whichever came first. What you seem to be doing is classic CCFTL which is to put down every other local church to elevate yours. You’re off to a bad start as a new believer and that’s sad.
Please understand that just as we cannot justify bad behavior with other bad behavior, neither do we get to justify bad behavior with good behavior….it’s not biblical. We get to deal with the bad behavior aside from the good we’ve done. Bob Goy does not get to point to the size of the ministry, how many people got baptized, new plants etc in response to accusations of abuse.
Jerry Sandusky did this very thing: pointing to the good he’s done to justify his pedophilia.
Here’s the relevant portion of the Sandusky interview with Bob Costas:
SANDUSKY: “In terms of — my relationship with so many, many young people. I would — I would guess that there are many young people who would come forward. Many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and — and what I had done for them made a very positive impact on their life. And I didn’t go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I’ve helped. There are many that I didn’t have — I hardly had any contact with who I have helped in many, many ways.I have worked with many, many young people where…I have made a very significant difference in their lives.”
Psychology experts say that part of the interview is the most damning.
Abusers like to say that for every person they’ve hurt, there’s thousands more they’ve helped as if somehow that justifies the abuse. Bob Coy and other abusive CC pastors do this a lot from the pulpit in lieu of copping to their sins. We reject this approach to dealing with pastoral sins and so should you.
Stop it now
“Abusers like to say that for every person they’ve hurt, there’s thousands more they’ve helped as if somehow that justifies the abuse. Bob Coy and other abusive CC pastors do this a lot from the pulpit in lieu of copping to their sins. We reject this approach to dealing with pastoral sins and so should you.”
WOW..that is stated perfectly!
And thats exactly the response from followers of the abusive Pastor when hearing of your own personal abuse.
Who cares about one little sheep when we have thousands of others to focus our attention on?
We divert our attention from the wounded sheep to the ones who will grow our “business”… the “yes” men and women who will do all they are told, because their goal is personal.. status, positions of leadership. associate Pastor positions, maybe being sent off to their own CC one day… and anyway, it is not about a wounded sheep… it is really about the “numbers”… and the amount of “kingdoms” we can own..this is proof we are doing the Lords work! (and after all, look at how the “church” is growing and how many are responding to altar calls!)
If you train your leadership well, they can just pass over those little pesky, yappy sheep when faced with conflict, and focus on the many they will never meet, never have personal relationship with, ones who will never call us to accountability..who will sit quietly and proud at their seats, and laugh at all the Pastors jokes and feel so good about being part of this very “successful” church!
So get rid of all those nuisances!
They just slow us down and keep us from what the Lord really wants us to do!
Stopitnow
Very good points you make. We see this often- do we not? Narcissistic, Manipulative, and sociopathic behavior will have the appearance that good is done for the sole purpose of deceiving unsuspecting sheep. That is why the Bible talks about wolves coming in SHEEP’S clothing- right? Come in as innocent as a lamb, come out ravenous as a wolf.
That is why it is very important to verify with Scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to guide in the truth before you listen to or follow anyone. Also, a pastor or leader is NOT above reproach- this “touch not God’s anointed” is just a threatening tactic used to keep the sheep following ones agenda. No humble pastor and shepherd would ever use that line of “touch not God’s anointed”- he would be a servant to the flock for the sake of Jesus Christ.
Re: @ 202
I’d be cautious in claiming there is no scandal. Seems like there’s a fair amount of people who agree that there is.
@185 did they take over/hack her computer or did she share her ebay user id(s) with bob coy’s hounds why they are able to find/stalk her online, interfere with her listings, leave negative feedback etc?
if that is true it’s truly sick bc that is how cults operate…mafia-lke imho
Isn’t hacking a computer a crime?
I just posted this in the wrong thread so here we go again:
@202
“I dont know anything about this alleged Pastor Bob Coy scandal.”
Then you’re either here to continue the $multi-million 7-year long coverup or you don’t know what you don’t know. And if you don’t know what you don’t know there is little you can do to change until you know how not knowing shapes your thoughts and your deeds.
“I have looked and find no claims to back this up.”
A woman comes across a man crawling under a street lamp. “I’ve lost my car keys,” he explains.
The woman tries to help the man find his keys. After a few minutes of searching, she asks “Where exactly did you drop them?”
“Down the street, next to my car.”
Puzzled, she asks “Then why aren’t you looking over there?”
“The light is better here.”
——————————
The morale of that story is that we tend to look where it seems easiest or most convenient to look, rather than in a more difficult, but more correct place. We think the best place to look is “where the light is better.”
Sadly because he’s such an amazing deceiver, Bob Coy has you and countless others looking “where the light is better” Indeed, he is our modern day Laban!
“Sounds like a personal vendetta by some misguided starstruck groupie.”
I could find on evidence of regular groupieness much less misguided and starstruck. Keep dreamin’
“What would have been fair? A large settlement? I smell a rat.”
This is classic textbook abuser speak to deny and deflect by saying the victim is motivated by money, Sandusksy said it and so did Michael Jackson, very sad.
This never has been nor ever will be about money. Why a settlement if the claims are meritless? Is that why Bob Coy recently transferred the This is sooo not about money or why he switched real estate from quit claim to special warranty deed which affords greater protection to the grantee.
I will say this much, she is no more intertested in Bob’s money than Bob is Just recently he transferred attachable real estate into a trust for a the day after a very crucial decision was made Hmmmm, wonder what that’s about.
This is the correct post:
@202
“I dont know anything about this alleged Pastor Bob Coy scandal.”
Then you’re either here to continue the $multi-million 7-year long coverup or you don’t know what you don’t know. And if you don’t know what you don’t know there is little you can do to change until you know how not knowing shapes your thoughts and your deeds.
“I have looked and find no claims to back this up.”
A woman comes across a man crawling under a street lamp. “I’ve lost my car keys,” he explains.
The woman tries to help the man find his keys. After a few minutes of searching, she asks “Where exactly did you drop them?”
“Down the street, next to my car.”
Puzzled, she asks “Then why aren’t you looking over there?”
“The light is better here.”
——————————
The morale of that story is that we tend to look where it seems easiest or most convenient to look, rather than in a more difficult, but more correct place. We think the best place to look is “where the light is better.”
Sadly because he’s such an amazing deceiver, Bob Coy has you and countless others looking “where the light is better” Indeed, he is our modern day Laban!
“Sounds like a personal vendetta by some misguided starstruck groupie.”
Coy’s ongoing obsession with every aspect of her life (most recently eBay) would suggest otherwise.
“What would have been fair? A large settlement? I smell a rat.”
This is classic textbook abuser speak to deny and deflect by saying the victim is motivated by money, Sandusksy said it and so did Michael Jackson, very sad.
This never has nor ever will be about money. Further, why would there be a “large settlement” if the claims are meritless? Is that why Bob Coy very recently switched from a “quit claim” to the more protective “special warranty” deed to transfer real estate into a trust the day after a certain court ruling Coy deemed important to her?
FG @201 “this “touch not God’s anointed” is just a threatening tactic used to keep the sheep following ones agenda. No humble pastor and shepherd would ever use that line of “touch not God’s anointed”- he would be a servant to the flock for the sake of Jesus Christ.”
——————————-
Ironically, God gave Moses the title of “servant” Joshua 1:2 which embodies the notion of a slave. Today the typical wannabe Moses is a nonservant abusive CC pastor who finds himself either hiding behind protective pulpits, law enforcement, accomplishments, or shuffling around assets for fear of being sued by the victims of abuse (sexual, spiritual, physical, emotional) they’ve relegated to the status of second class Christians, loose cannons, w*tches or lately, groupies.
ebayhateluv @204 “did they take over/hack her computer or did she share her ebay user id(s) with bob coy’s hounds why they are able to find/stalk her online, interfere with her listings, leave negative feedback etc?”
i’m near 100% certain she did not share her user ids with them
That’s interesting. I think non-denominational mega churches without proper/legitimate forms of govt. in place should be regulated by the Federal govt. to increase checks and balances for the safety and well being of church going Americans. I left CCFTL for entirely different reasons but this gives me the confirmation I need.
Yes, I admit I always look “where the light is better
Bob Coy should not be using church funds to engage this person if in fact this is a personal vendetta.
Re: @ 211
Are you reading the thread in it’s entirety? Seems you’ve missed some info.
Re: @ 212
Bob Coy and other CC pastors are mentioned because of the increasing information that indicates there’s corruption. Their corruption seems to be the typical issues that CC pastors have due to their unbiblical Moses Model style leadership that leaves them unaccountable. This lack of accountability and allowing others to challenge and correct them, leads to many abuses of the flock. So these threads about other pastors besides Bob Grenier, just further make the case that there’s a systemic issue in CC of which Bob Grenier is the poster boy.
Are you saying Bob Coy uses the church resources and personnel to abuse someone then moves around his assets to make himself judgment-proof in the even his victim sues him personally? If this is true that’s real slick. If it’s not then i suppose we’ll have a real person from the Coy camp come on here and debunk these myths. I hope so. Thanks.
I have been wading through several parts of the blog this evening, and this very lengthy debate. I am an outsider, so I am not part of the intended audience in terms of the church leaders being called to account inside the church.
What intrigued me most is the reliance on Scripture verses in argument, with battles of interpretation and translation and history… All treated as if it is the unchanging word of God – a stance which defies fact and logic.
To borrow the phrase Alex used regarding his own experience, this discussion reads like you have all drunk the Kool-Aid but your illnesses have different symptoms.
A man abused children? Report him to the authorities and insist that charges be laid. End of story. No need for all this hand-wringing about the church. They will do what they will do, no matter what anyone says in here. You can only control what YOU do, and that means going to the legal authorities. Some people seem to worry about damaging the reputation of the church. What reputation does the Christian church have left? Who outside the Church sees it as a force for good? for the majority, the Church is irrelevant – and the slavish spouting of translations of the approved Scriptures (when we know there were variations even in the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls) only serves to make it seem like everyone in here has lost their marbles.
Suspect abuse? Report it to the law. Suspect embezzlement? Report it to the law. Relying on God to make everything work out? Well, that doesn’t look like it’s been such a great tactic so far – not for any of you. Maybe God didn’t intend for you to become slaves to a book or to each other. Maybe that’s the message here, but no-one is listening. You are staring so closely at the verses on the page that you can’t see the obvious thing: you are still hooked into, and working hard to be a part of, a system of belief that is abusing you, and that system is bigger than one church. But you are all staying in that system, maybe because it lets you feel like you belong to a righteous private club. Leave the churches to devour themselves and spend your energy helping the poor, giving comfort to the lonely and grieving, and feeding the hungry.
Report the lawbreakers, swear your affidavits, and move on to doing something useful. Forget about the religious vigilante system set up by the church – it was created in different times for different circumstances and now it’s a perversion. Take down all the crazy back-and-forth Scripture Wars lunacy and replace it with a simple page that states the facts: “these people are alleged to have committed these crimes and this is the text of the affidavit I have sworn against them. Be warned.”
Now, having watched how folks deal on this thread with anyone who dares question the authority of their interpretation of Scripture, I expect there will be a lot of responses criticizing me or suggesting I am a heathen who doesn’t know anything – or even an agent of Satan. But I won’t know about it, because I won’t be back to watch this spectacle. I have work to do in my neighborhood, housing the homeless and feeding the hungry who come to my back stoop, working to improve the lot of the semi-literate – and not giving a hoot what their beliefs are as long as they agree to abide by the rules governing our civil society. And when they don’t, I report them and sometimes they go to jail.
“Leave the churches to devour themselves and spend your energy helping the poor, giving comfort to the lonely and grieving, and feeding the hungry. ”
Are you presuming that many here are NOT doing that right now- helping the poor and feeding the hungry? Do you think they are NOT giving COMFORT to those who are being abused by men? Do you know that many here have been of the abused and need a place to voice their opposition? As believers (which I suppose you may not be because of your comments above) we are to protect those within the church when false belief and abuse may be present. If we were to leave this issue the abused would not have a place to come and get COMFORT- this is one of the reasons for this blog. As for Scripture, I see no one here getting angry with one another for having differences, but try to encourage each other to search Scripture more. Do you guys see any anger or disruption here with each other?
What I see, outsider, is a healthy dialogue between Christians of what happens to men that leave Christ for humanism. Humanism is belief in oneself as the beacon of truth- so then we ask what is truth? Truth is then, IN HUMANISTIC THOUGHT, what I deem for it to be. Christ, as what is written in Scripture, states that truth is found only in Him. He states that He is the way, the truth, the light; no man comes to the Father except through Him. You have brought up the fact that Scripture has become so perverted that the church is no longer a viable entity. Well, I would have to argue that fact because right here we see the church actively standing up and protecting the oppressed that you so want to accuse those of not doing. The Scripture has not left the church, the church and man made law has left Scripture. This is the difference.
I have a feeling you will come on here just to see if someone commented. I truly hope you find the true Jesus and not the one that has been perverted by humanistic theology. The true Jesus is found in Scripture.
FG,
“Humanism is belief in oneself as the beacon of truth- so then we ask what is truth? Truth is then, IN HUMANISTIC THOUGHT, what I deem for it to be. Christ, as what is written in Scripture, states that truth is found only in Him. He states that He is the way, the truth, the light; no man comes to the Father except through Him”
Spoken well..you must be a writer to be able to gather your thoughts and express them so well.
I like how you keep bringing everyone back to Jesus.
Thanks for that!
Sometimes Jesus is lost here.
Lol, I am by no means a writer- in fact, it is one of those things I dread teaching my children in school. thanks though.
I might have been a little tough on outsider (do not mean to be) – if he is not a believer in Christ I can’t blame him for seeing what is going on in the Church and being a little cynical.
I just wanted him to know that what CC is doing is not from Christ and Scripture- this man doing church in his own image. And what Alex and others (you included) are doing here is trying to stand up for those who are oppressed and in need.
Love to bring it back to Jesus- it is a joy to serve Him!
What a trashy tabloid blog you’ve created here! Slander and accusation abound with pretty much ZERO facts to back-up all the trash talk. Did you used to write for the Enquirer and decide to give it a go on your own? I really wish you hadn’t. It’s bad enough when heathens engage in this junk; it’s just totally sad when Christians do it.
It won’t be long (by the way it looks) that you’ll have contributing writers. Maybe you could even set them up with their own columns. I’d vote for Hannah as she seems to be a true disciple of what you’re purveying:
“It sounds like a real ministry. Would you ever have suspected that God would use you like this?” (# 179)
Really Hannah? A ministry??? Is that what this blog is? Maybe you need to read your bible a bit closer…
“Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.” (Rev 12:10)
The accuser gets tossed out! Hurled down!!
I think I’d rather stand with the intercessor… Jesus lives to always make intercession for us. We know who the accuser is- and this blog reminds me a lot of his activities- accusing CC and it’s Pastors “day and night” seems to be the usual pattern around here. Oh I know, your “ministry” is to expose corruption- but how hard it is to first see our own failings. Vengence is the Lord’s, but it’s very obvious you’ve decided to take the job up yourself. It reminds me of that other scripture… you know, how a root of bitterness takes on a life of it’s own and ends up defiling many?
“Christian” the stuff I’m posting is true. Prove it otherwise.
Matthew 18
1 Timothy 3
Titus 1
1 Corinthians 5
1 Timothy 5:19-22
Ephesians 5:11
Matthew 23
Enjoy your reading.
“Christian” said, “Oh I know, your “ministry” is to expose corruption- but how hard it is to first see our own failings.”
I don’t know that I consider it a “ministry”.
My failings? I am not qualified to be a pastor per 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, neither are many of the Calvary Chapel Pastors who are featured on here.
And, I don’t make any money off of Jesus.
“Maybe you could even set them up with their own columns. ”
Not a bad idea.
“Christian”,
I came here and found stories that sounded like my own. I see a pattern and it involves clear measurable biblical sin. I have seen this same pattern at 3 CC’s I’ve attended. That’s first hand info, facts, names and dates. The Scripture is clear that if we are to be obedient to God’s revealed will in His Word, then we must call out the unrepentant leader, publicly. 1 Timothy 5:
Why are you on here calling out Alex? How can you call Alex out for calling out Bob Grenier? Aren’t you doing the same? Only diff is that Alex has first hand info, facts and many who back his story … including 3 brothers, uncle, church board member, etc…. You still need to make your case as to what you think Alex is doing wrong. So far, all I can see is that he’s obeying Scripture/God. What are you doing?
Christian,
My FACTS include a CC pastor who was wildly spending the church money for $800 purse for his wife, $300 (I’m told) jeans for himself, and much, much, much more that added up to a huge theft. I’m told the new leadership is now looking to see what happened to the $150,000 building fund? We’ll see how that turns out …
My point is that when the other leaders finally got around to forgetting about the CC rules to ALWAYS BE LOYAL NO MATTER WHAT, to never ever speak the truth out loud, and to overlook blatant sin in the pastor, it was then and only then that this madness was finally stopped.
The spiritual abuse many of us suffered from this pastor, his moral failure, he and his wife’s greed, and more … were just symptomatic of the deeper more serious issues that we can’t measure, but God knew was there. In Acts, the Apostle Paul charges the elders with protecting the sheep. Calling out unrepentant sin of leaders publicly is exactly what we are told to do.
So based on this Alex is obeying God. You on the other hand are the “accuser” in this scenario. You are suggesting that Alex should NOT obey God/Scripture. You are suggesting that those of us who’ve posted our stories here are not true. This is a grave error on your part, as we know our stories are true, first-hand eye-witness accounts.
Christian – blah blah – Same old attack on Alex – I hope you read more here and take off your rose colored glasses. CCCM has put down emergents, purpose driven, catholics, has called other denominations luke warm, etc. – go pick on them for accusing the brethren – its hard for you to first see your own failings—-.
I want to add that while the pastor and his wife were living high off the church’s coffers, the pastor was telling each ministry that they had to raise their own funds to fund their ministries. The women putting on the Vacation Bible School had to sell baked goods, etc… in order to fully fund that ministry. The same was true for all the ministries.
The assistant pastor and his wife (though they are not guilt free) could not pay their monthly bills with the puny salary they received, while the pastor and his wife were getting far FAR MORE and living very high. Much higher than anyone attending the church.
Many in the church are/were unemployed and sacrificing to give at all.
Christian, do you suggest that we have remained silent and allowed this pastor continue fleecing the flock at will? Silence only empowers the abuser. Saying the truth in the light doesn’t hurt the innocent.
Pardon me while I make one more rant ….
One time a business man showed up at our church to tell the pastor that a man who attended there had defrauded him in business. The pastor did not examine the business man doing the accusing to judge if he was saying it right or not. Instead, he looked to the one in the ministry, who calls himself a brother in the Lord, and told him to make the bad business deal right. The man acknowledged his sin and paid up. That was the right thing to do.
It would have been wrong had the pastor rebuked the business man for speaking up with the truth about the sin of the brother in the ministry.
Bob Grenier is a pastor in unrepentant measurable biblical sin. Alex is speaking up. To not do so would simply empower Bob Grenier to operate with impunity and to continue his long history of spiritual abuse, financial abuse, physical abuse, and alleged sexual abuse. It’s not a stretch to say that it would be wrong to not speak up. Those sitting silently may need to ask yourself how you are going to answer God when He asks why you empowered abusive spiritual leaders to harm the sheep?
I would like to thank all of you for your comments.
I’m not without empathy for why this blog exists, but I do question the wisdom of airing the dirty laundry of others publicly. I don’t think what you’re doing here is what Jesus had in mind in Matthew 18:15-17. His goal was reconciliation (gaining your brother)- being as sensitive and personal as possible with escalating consequences if the person you are dealing with refuses to listen and repent. But ultimately what are the final steps? “Tell it to THE CHURCH.” It does not say we should tell it to the world. Going online and blogging this stuff is certainly telling it to the world. The world is not the proper place to bring this stuff (unless, of course, there is something illegal going on in which case you would bring it to the attention of the authorities.) But we are to tell it to the church, not the world. And by “the church” I would take that to mean the local body of believers the person who has wronged us is with, as well as others in different locations who may have oversight. But what if he refuses to listen to even his church? Jesus tells us, “treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector.” Now I would hope we’re not running around trash talking the unbelievers around us; then neither should we be doing so with these people in the church we have disputes with. We walk away, and leave them to God, or as in the case of 1 Cor 5, they are put out of fellowship with the hope that after a few rounds with the devil they will repent. Nowhere are we told, however, to trash talk them, even if what we are saying is true.
Now let’s get real… Isn’t it true that beneath the exterior of many of the comments on this blog there is very real pain? And isn’t it the hurt that’s speaking here? You’ve been wounded and “abused” (it’s even in your blog’s URL) and you’re going to let people know about it. “This is messed up”, you might say, “and I’m going to do something about it!” Well, healing never comes from lashing out. In my previous post I mentioned how a root of bitterness defiles MANY. “Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark.” (James 3:5) So not only don’t you receive healing from your turbulent anger, but you pull others into your upheaval and the waters of dissension are stirred in them too. Is this God’s best?
As I said before, I do have empathy. I’ve been through some very, VERY painful stuff with a church I loved. (And in fact, it was even a CC church, but these things can happen in ANY church.) And in my own way I went online and let my dissatisfaction and pain out. I didn’t get specific and name names or anything like that, but I had had enough of “church” and the things I saw going on in many churches (not just CC). And this went on a long time, God let me rail, but looking back it was a dark time in my history as a Christian. Hindsight is 20/20- I thought I was helping people at the time, and there were plenty of people who agreed with me about the things I complained about, and I was even right about some of it too- but I kept feeling God was displeased with me and my posts. I thank God for the day I finally gave into His Holy Spirit and repented of it all! Posting the kind of stuff you’re posting will never bring the healing and changes you desire, it will just prolong your anger. You can be right Alex, and still be wrong.
Finally, there’s the issue of possibly being wrong- of getting your facts wrong- and ruining someones reputation by posting things you really don’t have true insight into and allowing comments from others who may post slanderous things as well. Do you really want to go down that road?
Healing for me meant getting my eyes back on Jesus. It’s surprising how far we can drift off course once we take a detour.
I can see your point Christian, but I think most here do not have hatred or bitterness towards these men. But when true abuse is being committed on the body of believers we are to keep exposing that which is wrong- even if it means that others may not get it or hate us for doing it. Do you know how many just by seeing this blog and reading have become aware of the things that are going on at CC and have their eyes opened to the false teachings and abuses? Part of being a Christian is to expose false teachers and abusers the Scripture clearly teaches that.
Lets give some examples: Many of the Christians, when Hitler started rounding up the Jews, decided it was best not to do anything or say anything and allowed the atrocities and abuses to occur. Many Christians, during the Civil War, decided not to say anything or do anything about slavery. Many did not say or do anything about Jim Jones and allowed him to get away with murder. Now I know these are extreme cases, but when one allows abuse to keep occurring men will turn from bad to worse. In this case of CC, there is facts that keep surfacing and I, for one, am glad that Alex came up with this blog because it warned me from getting into deep with a CC church where I live. I thank the Lord that this blog was here!
And by the way the world online is filled with other Christians who are not aware to what is going with CCs and need to be warned.
#230- there are facts- (bad grammar)
What a waste of time. I spent an hour here reading these posts to come to the conclusion that reports on Bob Coy are either conjecture, hearsay or gossip. I’ve known the Coys for 20 years. My family has been involved with the church, worked for the church, attended the school at the church and are not the enamored type. There are good and righteous things going on at CCFTL and in a community like South Florida’s, if they can find dirt on the church they will and they’ll have hay with it.
#137, RTFB: Gennarino was his name. not “Ginneralli (spelling is phonetic).”
Its my hope for you all is that you find some peace and save your forum flaming for those who have earned their disdain.
Alicia,
Perhaps because you and your family have not been abused, you can only defend your Pastor and not sympathize with the hurting.
The shame is that those who ought to come alongside the hurt, do anything but when it comes to allegiance to their adored Pastor… .
This is like turning a deaf ear on any abuse and saying “It hasn’t happened to me so it hasn’t happened”
This is a dangerous attitude and protects the perpetrator ansd victimizes the victim.
This attitude is what makes it harder for the abused to even get back into the church and fellowship.
Your response (which is expected ) is typical and is why the hurting never have a voice.
I just wanted to say that I have been going to Calvary Fort Lauderdale for the past 5 years now and I feel like this blog is completely inappropriate. Who is anyone to judge anyone. This is really what us “Christians” are doing. This is very sad to me. I love my church and everyone is entitled to their own opinions but we’re all suppose to be praising god and helping others together and instead this is what people are doing with their time. Every one of us are sinners. I don’t know the facts about these abuse cases and I completely sympathize for I have been there before in my life (not by a pastor), but what we all need to be doing is praying for these victims and for who ever was involved, instead of judging.
Jennifer,
God tells us in the Bible that we are to rebuke leaders in sin publicly so that others may take warning. 1Timothy 5
We are to judge those inside the church. 1Corinthians 9:12,13 “…For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
(The following found here: http://seedsoffaithfellowship.com/we-are-to-judge-those-inside-the-church/2010/10/10/ )
Posted on October 10, 2010 by JohnCalvin
Judge not, lest you be judged. How many times have Christians had that thrown in their face? While it is almost always taken out of context, one of today’s verses was about Christians judging.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people – not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
“As Christians, we are to righteously judge those who are in the church. Not in a catty, gotcha, I’m better than you way, but in a way that maintains the purity/integrity of the church. If there is someone in the body who is claiming to be a Christian, yet is involved with actions that are an insult to God, we are to purge them from the church.”
__________
Jennifer, there are very real evils being carried out by some of these leaders who have no accountability and all the control. Speaking out and warning others is actually love for others in action. I hope you will reconsider your judgment of us.
Got one in moderation, Alex.
Jennifer-Perhaps you ought to invest some time in reading about the abuses experienced by others here.
You sound like a CC Parrot if you don’t mind my saying so.
Once you invest the time here, it may open your eyes to realty outside your own comfort zone. I was where you are once. In complete adoration of my Pastor. In fact, such adoration that I overlooked much and believed it was the enemy, but in reality it was the leadership.
One thing I have found it that there is really very little sympathy for anyone who has been hurt. I said it before and here again another post dismissing others abuse. It reminds me of the Good Samaritan story.
It is typical and to be expected.
It is human nature to protect what is dear to us.
How hard it is for a woman to leave an abusive husband..
How much more to open a heart to experiences of others not experienced by oneself.
Interesting that you can have greater empathy OUTSIDE the church than inside.
Grateful- I hope Jennifer comes back to read your post. I suspect that she is OK as she says “I don’t know the facts about these abuse”. Turning a deaf ear is easier than educating oneself with the facts. Knowing the facts makes one accountable. My experience has been that others would rather walk away from the facts than face them. Christians can easily bury their heads in the sand and pretend they don’t know anything, and that everything is “GOSSIP”. The pastor trains us well. Its as if an authomatic switch goes off in ones head that anything anyone says anything about the church, Pastor, leadership, automatically they turn on the “thou shalt not judge” verse. I believe it is a brainwashing technique and an unconscious reaction to hearing this so many times.
It is really hard to get through to them.
That has been my greatest frustration and a “trigger” for me.
You just can’t reach these people.
It is a roadblock and a spiritual stronghold that they have to defend their church.
As Jennifer said “I love my church”. Not “I love my Jesus”.
Hannah –”Christians can easily bury their heads in the sand and pretend they don’t know anything, and that everything is “GOSSIP””
This is what I run into most often. When I give them the biblical definitions of gossip and slander you can see the wheels spinning and they are trying to process totally new information. All it takes is asking if I’ve said anything that isn’t true, or to deliberately hurt someone? They know I haven’t.
Yes, are we in love with or churches or with Jesus Christ who tells us to judge and to rebuke publicly and to remove the unrepentant? We have to read our whole Bibles and follow the whole counsel of God … without any favoritism.
Can we get back on topic. Is this a general forum or comments on a blog post about pastor Coy? Geesh, some religious people seem to turn every possible medium into a platform for arguing.
I would say 80-90% of these posts have nothing to do with the actual topic…
Dave, be my guest and post on topic.
Hey Dave – ummm… Grateful has been a regular on this blog and is a believer in Jesus Christ and knows the mod quite well. Many times we may just get off topic because we enjoy discussing things with fellow believers, so no he is not a troll. And Grateful did say post on topic, so I do not know what is the prob.
This forum is not public if those being discussed are unaware of the accusations. Yes, there is abuse everywhere but if you do not have evidence against Bob Coy then this thread should be closed, because it is Gossip and victimization of ones character. Question should considered is: What eternal value does this conjecture have? Another would be: am I wasting time that could be spent bringing the lost to Christ by blogging away on a pastor/church I don’t know …
PS: Hannah, if there is no smoke thn there is no fire. Stop incinuating that Bob Coy is an abusive pastor
Dave, take a hike.
Alicia, there doesn’t seem to be much smoke with Bob Coy, IMO and you are free to share good stuff about him. I hope there’s good stuff. Sounds like there are some beefs as presented by some on this thread, but I don’t see the kind of smoke that i see with a Raul Ries or Bob Grenier…at least not that I’ve received.
I agree there is not much smoke here at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. There’s only carnage…lots of it piled high and deep around our Bob Coy and no honest insider can dispute that. Why all the carnage?
Where there’s carnage there’s war. War kicks arse and will always be war. Bob Coy has been engaged in a secret protracted war that he can’t win because God never told him to fight an illegitimate war that’s causing needless casualties/carnage and that Bob will not get to decide how and when it ends no matter how much money, church resources and staff he throws at at.
Moses wouldn’t engage in this type war and when David went to war God saw to it that most the carnage ended up on the other side: David’s ten thousands vs. Saul’s thousands? Just sayin’
CCFTL under the leadership of Bob Coy is waging a seemingly endless and illegitimate war and the “we’re at war” mentality has defined the lives of many staffers here to where it feels like war is the norm.
And one of Bob’s captains, Chet Lowe has had his name removed from the list of
assistant pastors on the CCFTL site. In fact if you search the CCFTL message archives under Chet Lowe you won’t find his name there. Strange thing is his sermons are still in the database but they’re listed under the alias of “Mark Richter”. You can’t make this stuff up. Only in a CC does this stuff happens. I very much like the term ‘church-like cult’ coined by stop it now. Where is stop it now? His writing is interesting, thoughtful and measured.
Question for Chet: how do you wage war when war is the norm at CCFTL? We know you have been affected more than anyone else with sudden deaths of your brother, father, uncle, grandmother and your recent health scare all in the space of like 4 months? Why did God allow that to happen Chet? We have so many questions. Are we getting the right answers and guidance to deal with this the right way?
The long and short is I think we’ve failed our pastor and have used ‘his’ large ministry and influence quotient as misleading indicators of wellness and success when in fact he needs help. I believe there is a sickness that is being swept under the rug to protect the Coys.
The good news Bob is where there is carnage, there’s opportunity for the Great Physican to step in and do some stitching up if you and your enablers will just get out of the way already.
Is that previous blogger using the handle “Christian” happen to be Pastor Bob Coy’s son named Christian Coy? Hope not.
When he was only 5 Christian Coy once prayed:
“Our Father, who art in heaven, how would I know my name?”
Now that he’s all grown up Christian Coy should be praying:
“Our Father, who art in heaven, does my dad know your name?”
Bless the Lord oh my soul and all that is within me bless His holy name…. who forgives our sins and heals our diseaseas perhaps in that order.
Re: Just Dust
The people I know who have worked in CCFTL agree with your description of “carnage.”
“Question for Chet: how do you wage war when war is the norm at CCFTL? We know you have been affected more than anyone else with sudden deaths of your brother, father, uncle, grandmother and your recent health scare all in the space of like 4 months?”
Chet, so sorry for your losses. Sounds like a very tough season to be in.
We all feel bad for Chet. My feeling is he’s next in line maybe in 10 yrs since Christian Coy is only I think only 17 y/o. Bob reminds me of Mitt Romney, outspends his opponents, engage in smear campaigns (from the bully pulpit), anything to win. His philosophy seems to be to get people to look at all the money Ive got control of and the size of my ministry,connections, how could you even question if I’m right for the job or if there’s a problem with me. Just look at my success and all my connections if you’ve got a problem with me you’re just jealous, blah blah same garbarge.
When Bob offends someone he doesn’t deal with the problem he deals and dances around it. So if he offends/abuses/slanders say a Mexican, he sends missionaries to Mexico for a week for absolution or something. Very cultlike way to deal with a problem.
Just Dust at 247 must have gotten to Bbo cause within 24 hours a team including Christian Coy was preparing for a mission trip to Uganda which is where Doug Sauder was shipped off to after his sermon/rant against descendants of Cain (you know “blah people”) like a year ago. Why not confront the problem and deal with it instead of these elaborate gestures that accomplish nothing by way of reconciliation.
Churches with little finances seem to deal more effectively with these types of problems. Sad.
Good luck Bob Romney
My brother and his exfiance/exgirlfriend/girl friend are currently attending this church and they rave about Pastor Bob. Our family has not been very church going since my grandfather was a Jehovah Witness most of his life and alot of various other reasons. I did not worry at first when my brother first started going there. This wasnt really new. He had been searching for some kind of religious learning before. But his ex, started posting constantly every day on facebook things about God etc… and really sounded like a fanatic. And then my brother started talking in a manner I had never heard from him before and it wasnt because he was now quoting Bible scriptures more often. I have years of Bible studies behind me that have caused me to question the contradictions I found in the Bible and out of sincere intentions I stated those questions to them and found that they both would get easily angered. They throw back Bible verses and explanations that by no means answer my questions. I am really worried about my brother. He claims to be calmer now but I see him as getting angrier easier. He freaked out on me one Sunday morning when I couldnt remember how to explain to get to our cousins house when he was late in going to church. I am finding some similar stories but not enough help as to what can I do.
BTW I just came across this site tonight so forgive me if I state anything that has already been said because it is late and I have not had the opportunity to read all that has been written.
But I looked at the ecfa.org site as well and saved it. Glad to have seen it posted. Because earlier I came accross someting else that was posted on FloridaTrend about there being 530 employees. There’s no way they are paid out of the administrative expenses that are being claimed. I am grateful to have found another site to keep in arsenol of knowledge. My brother is an accountant and I am a certified book keeper althought not practicing, I can now talk to him a little more in a language he understands. I just want to wake him up a little so that he wont be so blinded. Anyhow, thankyou for this site. And anyone who has any suggestions on how to help my brother see reason again, please contact me at Tracyspost.com
Tracy
I remember finding that site years ago. (ecfa.org)
It is astounding how much accumulated assets some of the churches have..some over a hundred million-and I assume from previous conversation here about the CC “Gov’t” that the Sr. Pastor owns it all.
It is good to see it there in black and white, because as most of us here know the CC’s will not give financial disclosure.
How can a church have those kinds of assets? I assume the assets are cash, real estate, owndership of radio stations, etc?
As far as your brother…. Just pray for him.
You didn’t say whether you are a believer.
Just wanted to wish everyone here a Happy Resurrection Day.
We have been resurrected to new life through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who has shed His blood for our sins, so we can be forgiven and set free by God’s everlasting mercy.
May we experience the joy of our salvation in the midst of the chaos of this present world.
Yes “grateful” we feel for Chet and have to believe that our Sovereign God knows best. Which CC did you leave?
To “apart together” only God knows who is next in line, when and how. Sr. Pastor Chet Lowe? Chet’s a riot…not enough blood in his caffeine circulatio…
To ‘Tracy’ and ‘Hannah’ all churches have fanatics but especially CCs and other
cults. Which CC did you leave Hannah? I wouldn’t stress over CCFTL’s finances because if you make it about money they win. Suffice it to say, when you’re at war your operating
expenses will always be higher no matter how you try to move the numbers around and recategorize stuff.
To ‘@Tracy’ what do you mean by “25% of their tithes are received from the 20,000 plus weekly visitors”? That makes no sense now does it? The weekly attendees are now relegated to ‘weekly visitors’? And the other 75% “of their tithes are received from” who? Listen, I’ll take Benny and Joel over Bob’s dog and pony show any day. At least with them you know exactly what you’re getting. You’re just throwing out a bunch of numbers to create shock and awe for the purpose of distracting from the real issues relating to Bob’s illegitimate war which is violative of all scripture. Stop trying to cover up sin.
I do sort of agree with “apart together” re the Bob Romney label. Mitt has
engaged in endless shock and awe and never tires of boasting of his wealth, silly elevators for his cars, name dropping etc for the sole purpose of distracting from Mitt which is the greatest liability to his campaign. I said sort of because at least Romney seems to be spending a lot of HIS OWN money in his fight for the nomination he has yet to put away. Mitt decided he would make it about money and he won, at least so it seems unless GOP has a brokered convention.
Romney’s clear strategy is to let us see just how rich he is in hopes that his religion,
his blatant lies, dishonest campaigning, his weirdness and his extreme flip flopiness,
will become irrelevant. He’s trying to force an association between mormonism and the good life to make converts. We have no problem with your wealth Mitt, our problem is with you, and only you. You are the GOP’s worse nightmare.
Mormonism is a sex cult becasue it is inseparably intertwined with polygamy. Don’t forget the polygamous Mormon compound in Texas, where 416 children were removed from their parents due to allegations of sexual molestation.
The founder of Mormonism, Brigham Young, said:
“The only men who become gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”
Yet the mormon sex cult is the most active modern practitioner of missionary work and no church sends out more missionaries than mormons it is part of their DNA. Mormon teenagers save up their money to afford missions trips when they get “called”.
Mormonism has a much higher growth rate than Calvarism and its spreading like wildfire. In Uganda alone there are over 10000 new converts even at the peak of the texas scandal. And the cancer ward at the Ugandan Children’s Hospital has one wheelchair in it with “Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints” written on it.
I wonder do abusive groups (sexual, spiritual, physical etc) send out more missionaries than their less or non abusive counterparts? I have noticed that sin/war is up in tandem with the number of missions trips and benevolent activities at CCFTL.
Would love for an actual CCFTLite to respond to these issues in a humble non-snobish fashion.
At 255: Don’t even get me started with Mitt Romney. I’m a registered republican and don’t too much care for him. The guy is out of touch and quite peculiar. Who puts any dog let alone your own dog on the roof of a car on a long trip to Canada? I can’t get that story out
of my mind.
At 256: what does 20k visitors and tithing have to do with abuse by Bob Coy? Somebody is trying to hijack this thread.
At 256: I find it disturbing that you’re complaining that 20,000 VISITORS give as much as 25% of what you’ve calculated the full tithe to be. Why don’t you have a membership if you want more $$ from the visitors? We left CCFTL and are now MEMBERS of Christ Fellowship and they make a point to assure their visitors that the only thing they want from them is a completed visitor card to follow up and find out where they’re at spiritually, invite them to make CF their home church not a preoccupation about their giving. I am suspect of top heavy churches with 500+ employees. CF is as large as CCFTL but they only have like 10 pastors not 25+ if my memory serves me correctly.
At 256: typical CC mo to attack, demonize and satanize its critics who seek to hold CC
pastors accountable and blameless (not perfect) in accordance with scriptural qualifications for pastors.
I’ve heard about the Bob Coy ‘carnage’ and it doesn’t take a genius to figure out something secretive, ugly and sinister is going on behind the scenes they don’t want you to know about. God does not bring that much calamity upon one church, one family (Chet’s) for no good reason. Maybe a call to repentance not coverup.
At 257: what does planning missions trips years in advance have to do with the Christian Coy issue. Did I miss something?
At 258: Tracy said ever since her brother and his girlfriend (who are probably shacking up like many CCFTL singles) started attending CCFTL they get “angrier easier” and freak out on her for silly stuff and quote bible verses probably out of context, and you’ve concluded that she thinks the bible is a cult?
Is it just me or does Steve, anonymous, @justdust and @Tracy sound like the same person? In fact they all sound exactly how my brother has been talking and writing to me.
Steve at 264 said: “Now CF 5 churches doesnt cover one of CCs smaller satelliltes. Where would YOU suggest someone who lives in Broward County attend?”
Steve you’re either a boldface liar or you are not from CCFTL or Florida for that matter because it’s common knowledge that Christfellowship is way larger than CCFTL. There are close to 30,000 and they have a membership. Check out their site here:
http://gochristfellowship.com/about-us/our-pastors/tom-donna-mullins/
The founding pastor is Tom Mullins and I think I’ll take his word on the size. I enjoy Pastor Todd’s teaching and John Maxwell is icing on the cake. Their teaching is sound or I don’t think Maxwell would be associated.
Steve at 267 said: “Who cares about membership?”
CCFTL seems to care because at every altar call they make a point to let the unsaved know that they don’t have a membership in those words. It seems they use their non-membership status to entice people to accept Christ which is disturbing to me. It is equally wrong to use membership to entice people although I’ve never heard membership used to get people to come forward and accept Christ.
Straight from the CF website: “Dr. Tom and Donna Mullins are the founders of Christ Fellowship. Their desire to make a difference for Christ in Palm Beach County inspired them to start Christ Fellowship in their home in 1984. Their leadership has helped to grow the church from 40 people to over 30,000 on regional campuses in South Florida. In addition, there are nearly 10,000 people experiencing Church Online every week through a live streaming on the Internet around the globe.”
Hanah
May I first ask which Hannah you are? Because the only other time I was asked this, she spelled her name Hannah and then the next one “Hannahh” spouted stuff about JW’s which is now worrying me that because me and my brother were already exposed to a cult, we are more suseptable (excuse spelling) to another cult. And now you spell it Hanah, so I’m not sure if you are 3 different ones, or just one who has changed their name to remain anonymous.
However, because you use the word “believer” instead of Christian, I assure you, I do NOT attend any Calvary Chapels. I HAVE been learning about their beliefs so that I can be better informed of the way they operate.
Bob Coy is business guru, marketing and selling jesus to build his man kingdom called CCFL! Does anyone really know the real BC? He protects himself with layers of paid yes men to protect the corporate empire… Is this how Jesus lived? Not in whore church America!
Why not call it Calvary Chapel Disneyland????
wow said: “Also, Christ Fellowship is in Dade County. Not many sound choices for Broward residents and I have visited a few, and Calvary Chapel and Bob Coy is as good as it gets. ”
Once again you blatantly misrepresent the facts. Why is that? May God have mercy on your poor soul CF is NOT in Dade County. It is in Broward County.
wow said: “@ 269 (From their website is not facts. Numbers are grossly inflated. Sorry.) I can appreciate and admire your love for your church but please, dont bash other churches especially for personal reasons. Also here is a link for the top 25 churches in the country for 2011.”
No the numbers are not inflated. That “sermoncentral” source is highly unreliable. My understanding is they are bought and paid for. CF reported MEMBERSHIP numbers and CCFTL reported ATTENDEE-VISTOR numbers hence the discrepancy. Therefore, if CF had reported ATTENDEE-VISITOR numbers it would be well over 30,000
CF is in Palm Beach County not Dade or Broward County.
Here is a more reliable source on the numbers in the Palm Beach Post most would agree:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/religious-revival-flocks-moved-by-spirit-of-megachurches-2289718.html
“Pastor Todd Mullins preaches at Christ Fellowship’s Palm Beach Gardens campus. All four centers draw 18,000 to 20,000 on a weekend; a fifth will be added in Boynton.”
CF bought the old Dillards store is where the 5th location will be will full approval from
City Hall, praise be to God.
Bob Coy does not hold a candle to Todd Mullins and John Maxwell as far as sound teaching, doesn’t even come close. And we’re not into Disneyland on the premises either.
We’re commanded to “Go” which is the opposite of let them “come” to Disneyland.
Can we leave CF out of this discussion and get back to the topic of “carnage gate” at CCFTL and why Chet Lowe’s name was removed from the sermon library. I checked it out myself and noticed that even visiting speakers like Alistair Begg and former pastors like Geoff Buck their names are still in the database. So what is the real reason for removal of Chet’s?
http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146632/Follow-the-money
http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146583/Bob-Coy
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/an-open-letter-to-calvary-chapel-of-ft-lauderdale/
Tracy, that was not the Hannah who has posted here so graciously before. The person who was arguing with you was using many different names and pretending to support from each alternate alias.
That doesn’t fly here people. If you post under multiple names to bully someone, your post will be sent to the spam file.
All these posts make me so sad. They do nothing but discredit our spiritual leaders, worship centers, etc. Satan sure is hard at work here, and you are all his pawns. We have so many family members that are not saved, that are lost, that don’t know the Lord, that don’t believe etc. and their lives are in complete chaotic confusion (as mine once was). This blog and recent posts have done nothing but separate the brethren, and made every new believer and those searching for truth rethink their commitment. I cant even tell you how much this grieves our Lord. I am suspect as to how many here really know the Lord, are believers or christians and follow his laws here. We are all giving in to Satans wiles.
Some of us pray for years for them to come to know the Lord. I see so many atheists (Matthew 12:30) aggressively jump on christian blogs constantly to poke holes in our Faith i.e. Christian Post, etc. Ever since I became saved and declared Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior, I get bullied, attacked and mocked daily. I am bombarded with “God kills babies and innocent people” and people who vehemently go out of their way to discredit God, Jesus and/or The Bible constantly. When I try to answer their questions, I get more attacked. This hurts. He is MY God. I adore him (Luke 10:27). End of story. Leave me alone.
Yet we are doing the same thing here, essentially. Are we all Gods children? or not? I don’t get it. As the Body of Christ we are ALL supposed to stick together! Every church has its issues, problems and challenges. Churches are full of sinners. Jesus said “FOLLOW ME”, not follow THEM. But the fact of the matter is, we are starved for the Lords word and teaching and no one should really be giving in to Satans tactics to discourage said teachings, unless of course proof is provided for the alledged misconduct and from what I have read here, they are not necessarily sins according to the Bible, maybe a question of societal ethics and questionable business practices BUT certainly not a sin, yet NO EVIDENCE has ever been provided (and the ebay story is just laughable) just mere gossip and conjecture. But let God be the judge of that, shall we? (Luke 12:48)
We are very scarce for churches and should really embrace each and every one that teaches according to Biblical Principles and doesn’t promote a false teaching/religion/cult essentially one that will steer us clear away from the Godhead.
Our friends, families and neighbors are all battling addictions, illnesses, disbelief, doubt, suicidal thoughts, foreclosures, unemployment, and poverty, and what we should be doing is pointing them to the Lord and whatever church “we” feel is appropriate since as believers, know a sound doctrine when we see/hear it. Please stop to consider how many peoples lives have been restored upon knowing the Lord, due to one of these churches.
Our Pride, influenced by Satan has been the main driving force in each and every single post on here. I love and will pray for you all. I thank GOD, for CF, CC, etc. and every single person that utters the Great Commission… do you?
Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
Not Alone
Thankyou.
That was what I was thinking and I think I know who it might have been and see that this person may have even posted once before I ever found this site.
But anyhow, I am just sorry that it sparked that sort of backlash. Glad to see that this site is strictly intended to have respectful conversations and respectful debates about the topic.
All these posts make me so sad. They do nothing but discredit our spiritual leaders, worship centers, etc. Satan sure is hard at work here, and you are all his pawns. We have so many family members that are not saved, that are lost, that don’t know the Lord, that don’t believe etc. and their lives are in complete chaotic confusion (as mine once was). This blog and recent posts have done nothing but separate the brethren, and made every new believer and those searching for truth rethink their commitment. I cant even tell you how much this grieves our Lord. I am suspect as to how many here really know the Lord, are believers or christians and follow his laws here. We are all giving in to Satans wiles.
Some of us pray for years for them to come to know the Lord. I see so many atheists (Matthew 12:30) aggressively jump on christian blogs constantly to poke holes in our Faith i.e. Christian Post, etc. Ever since I became saved and declared Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior, I get bullied, attacked and mocked daily. I am bombarded with “God kills babies and innocent people” and people who vehemently go out of their way to discredit God, Jesus and/or The Bible constantly. When I try to answer their questions, I get more attacked. This hurts. He is MY God. I adore him (Luke 10:27). End of story. Leave me alone.
Yet we are doing the same thing here, essentially. Are we all Gods children? or not? I don’t get it. As the Body of Christ we are ALL supposed to stick together! Every church has its issues, problems and challenges. Churches are full of sinners. Jesus said “FOLLOW ME”, not follow THEM. But the fact of the matter is, we are starved for the Lords word and teaching and no one should really be giving in to Satans tactics to discourage said teachings, unless of course proof is provided for the alledged misconduct and from what I have read here, they are not necessarily sins according to the Bible, maybe a question of societal ethics and questionable business practices BUT certainly not a sin, yet NO EVIDENCE has ever been provided (and the ebay story is just laughable) just mere gossip and conjecture. But let God be the judge of that, shall we? (Luke 12:48)
We are very scarce for churches and should really embrace each and every one that teaches according to Biblical Principles and doesn’t promote a false teaching/religion/cult essentially one that will steer us clear away from the Godhead.
Our friends, families and neighbors are all battling addictions, illnesses, disbelief, doubt, suicidal thoughts, foreclosures, poverty, and what we should be doing is pointing them to the Lord and whatever church “we” feel is appropriate since as believers, know a sound doctrine when we see/hear it. Please stop to consider how many peoples lives have been restored upon knowing the Lord, due to one of these churches.
Our Pride, influenced by Satan has been the main driving force in each and every single post on here. I love and will pray for you all. I thank GOD, for CF, CC, etc. and every single person that utters the Great Commission… do you?
Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
You are welcome Tracy. I hope that it doesn’t happen again but trolls usually continue to try to cause pain as long as you respond to them.
re link @263: http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146583/Bob-Coy
“His church, Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale made the news with an announcement from RSI. Seems RSI has helped CCFL raise over $103 Million dollars. Sounds like worldly techniques to me! Odd, there’s nothing on the CCFL website about using a capital raising corporation.”
I did a bit of research and I don’t believe CCFTL’s 20K non-member “visitors” were ever told how much of their $103million in pledges actually came in. Fidel Gomez reported one figure and Bob Coy reported another and there was around a $20million discrepancy, with the total dollars collected roughly over a 3-year period estimated around 1/2 of the amount pledged is what was reported from the pulpit.
Bob do you think it is fair that the 20K non-member “visitors” not be told just how much came in? Or do you take the stance that it’s the Lord’s money and you’re under no obligation to disclose one correct dollar amount.
I also discovered that Chet Lowe gave his last sermon on the same day (2/1/2012) it was reported that his brother’s F18 accident happened due to “practice mistakes” and “training shortfalls”. Is this a coincidence Chet and did it contribute to the decision to completely remove your name from the CCFTL website and sermon library?
http://www.hanfordsentinel.com/news/local/nasl-crash-caused-by-practice-mistakes/article_cb288a54-4d11-11e1-9f29-001871e3ce6c.html
At 268: “Our Pride, influenced by Satan has been the main driving force in each and every single post on here.”
Does that mean your pride and your posts are influenced by Satan along with all of the others? Speak for yourself.
and:
“I love and will pray for you all”
Could you get prayed for first to remove Satan’s influence from your life before praying for anyone else?
Man, you dont let up. I would really check my salvation if I were you. If you are an endorser for CF, I really am suspect of their doctrine.
I attended CCFL for 3 years and this is my story.
1. I rededicated my life to Christ because His word was preached and teached:
From the pulpit
In classes: Christianity 101
In outreach ministries
2. I got involved in serving my community in the name of Jesus because it’s in His word and it was preached from the pulpit.
3. My kids got involved in serving others and being other centered through learning about God’s word in youth ministries: My high school daughter evangelizes–because God’s word was preached and teached.
4. When my husband lost his job, benevolence ministry provided money to cover our rent, Publix gift cards and prayer and follow up emails.
You know a church by it’s fruit not by idolizing the leaders. Look at what they have done in the community and compare that to the work each of you have done in the name of Jesus.
With so many evangelist preaching the prosperity gospel, which never includes being of service to others, it’s all about what I can name and claim, we who call ourselves Christians should be thankful that there is at least a few churches out there who teach HEAVEN and HELL….watch “It’s More Than A Word:Faith” mp3. How many times have you seen some of those prosperity evangelist say anything about Hell?
Get off the blogs and go out and feed the hungry, cloth the naked visit those in prison…in the name of the Lord.
In a loving way…Amen.
kmichelle, glad you’ve had a good experience and the “benevolence” you report you received from CCFTL is a good thing (if true).
Your comment about getting off the blogs and feeding the hungry, etc assumes a lot. I think many on here support missions, food banks, make donations to help people, etc. I know I do.
The blog is also a way of helping those who don’t have a voice with regards to the negative experiences they’ve had with Calvary Chapel. Unfortunately, it’s not always pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows. Bad stuff has happened and is happening in CC Land it should be called out and dealt with by Leadership…but Chuck Smith tacitly endorses teh bad behavior…and lies about his own affairs (double entendre intended).
Here’s what CC Kool-aiders see CC as:
http://youtu.be/eWM2joNb9NE
Here’s what CC sees itself as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6oS3L-D9A
What I and many others see CC as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA
I have been moderated for being an idiot.
After reading all the comments it sounds like they have nothing better to do than comdem Pastor Coy. Hardly a christian attitude. We need to pray for these poor lost souls.
Ron
Reading a few comments makes me wonder why Pastor Coy solicits comments. Not one person demonstrates a christian attitude.
You all should really think about what you are doing. Slander, Defamation of Character and Lible is not really tolerated these days….And if CC is as money hungry as claimed, you sure are making it easy for them to collect:
(http://www.katu.com/news/local/Beaveton-Grace-Bible-Church-lawsuit-charles-oneal-julie-anne-smith-151227055.html?tab=video&c=y)
@ KMICHELLE – I agree wholeheartedly as that was my same experience at CC. Thanks for sharing. You and I have first hand experience and not just spreading vitriole.
@274 Alex, I respectfully ask you to please make the distinction between the Calvary Chapels. They are not all the same. I dont understand, and perhaps you can explain why we are dragging CCFtL and Pastor Bob Coy when it has nothing to do with what happened to you. They are all separate and indepedently run. Perhaps your great writting skills would be better serveed on blogs on how to lead by example and be a GREAT christian with your stories of feeding the homeless, clothing the poor and visiting the imprisoned which is what Ive seen CCFtL do on countless occassion. Please lets leave Pastor Bob Coy out of this mess. You may want to look into false churches like Potential and King Jesus Ministry and expose and warn others about those. Also, you may want to watch this (http://media.calvaryftl.org/player/?fn=C3685). It seems to address each and every concern you have about CCFtL because quite frankly, Im not sure you have ever dedicated real time to “researching” CCFtl and Pastor Bob Coy. If you have visited it and heard his teachings than I apologize in advance. 300 comments later and no one has been able to support any concrete evidence at the “alledged” misconduct from CCFtL and Pastor Bob Coy. Jesus said “Follow Me”, not “Follow Them”. I have been attending CCFtL and find absolutely NOTHING suspect with their teachings, doctrine or the way things are run around there. Thanks.
Too may ccft paid staff trolls on here trying to make pastor boob look good….
Re @ 278
For it to be slander it would have to be untrue. I know my story is true. Alex and many others corroborating his story know his is true. I know a few others who post here are telling true stories based on the evidence I’ve seen with my own eyes.
My experience, as well as those I’ve met personally on here, are first hand experiences. I’ve got 20 ish years in Calvary Chapels. Many of us are by no means novices to the faith, nor to Calvary Chapel. Several who’ve posted on here include (but not limited to): former CC pastors, former CC assistant pastors, former lawyer to Chuck Smith, and many many more who’ev experienced first hand the abuses that naturally come to fruition when the leaders follows the unbiblical Moses Model leadership style that leaves the pastor with no real accountability that he doesn’t have to agree to submit to.
Since there are only 12 (so I’m told) CC pastors who’ve actually changed their by-laws to create real accountability and financial transparency out of 2000 CC’s, then the issues Alex has faced with his dad are just the tip of the ice berg of what goes on with CC leaders. We all have sinful natures, so any CC pastor without accountability would have huge temptations, and from what I’ve seen, they fall.
Ask the following:
Is there finanical transparency?
Can the board fire the pastor if he is in disqualifying, unrepentant sin?
Can the pastor fire the board if they disagree with him?
Can the elder board fire the pastor if he is in disqualifying, unrepentant sin?
Can the pastor fire the elders if they disagree with him?
Who has control of financial decisions?
I would add that if anyone thinks that these CC churches are TRULY independant, then you need to do your homework. There is a current legal battle going on that will most likely show this is not the case. If they really are TRULY independant, then what recourse does anyone have when they are spiritually abused in a CC church?
My CC pastor took (most recent official number made pubic two weeks ago) $200,000 last year and ran up $60,000 in credit card debt. No one could challenge him without being shown the door, and no one could hold him accountable. Oh, and no one knew, because of how CC teaches their pastors to operate the funds in the interest of expediency.
As a typical “successful” CC pastor is out of town, often for many “ministry” trips, and beyond being called into account, these men are faced with many temptations that many cannot resist. Our pastor had THREE women come forward saying he was in a relationship with all of them recently. And they are just the ones we know about.
Most don’t flame out so obviously, but we continue to find out many many have fallen and then the CC cover-up has taken over, with their disqualifying sins graced over … all the way to the top … Chuck Smith. Alex’s issue with his dad is just the poster child for all that is ill in CC. It’s time to wake up and make the necessary changes. We’ve not seen changes so we first quit giving financially since it’s not transparent, followed by leaving since there was no accountability.
I agree, Guru.
It’s the same old tired mantra that ignores all the facts.
gos·sip[ góssip ]NOUN
gos·sips plural
1. conversation about personal matters: conversation about the personal details of other people’s lives, whether rumor or fact, especially when malicious
2. casual conversation: informal conversation or writing about recent and often personal events
3. habitual talker: somebody who habitually discusses the personal details of others’ lives
INTRANSITIVE VERB
gos·siped past and past participle
gos·sip·ing present participle
gos·sips 3rd person present singular
1. talk about other people: to spread rumors or tell people the personal details of others’ lives, especially maliciously
I have a few questions. Does your post have ANYTHING to do with Pastor Bob Coy? You never specified which CC but yet wrote on this page.
Also, can you produce copies of a) bank statement b) payroll stub 3) tax returns 4) signed and witnessed affidavits of the three women making claims, 5) credit card statements? Not that I care or make it any of my business but you can understand that evidence is the only thing that will distinguish fact from fiction or gossip.
If it took you 20 years to find this out about CC why didnt you leave sooner? If not, Why havent you? If so, where to?
WOW, I’ve got the goods. CC can sue, “Discovery” would be quite eye-opening and media-worthy. I’ve got four letters for you: ACLU.
anonymous, I don’t have any personal bad experiences with Bob Coy. I opened this thread b/c someone from his CC had some opinions they wanted to express about their personal experiences there and in addition others wanted an opportunity to share about Bob Coy as well. Many have come on here and said they’ve had a good experience.
I’ve read some of Coy’s stuff and I know he’s a part of the CC “Affiliated” System which means he has signed off on Chuck Smith’s “Distinctives” and it appears he has also bought into the Moses Model of Church Government as articulated by others here and elsewhere.
Here’s an interesting suit:
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/23/local/la-me-0323-televangelist-feud-20120323
Lots of stuff comes out in lawsuits…skeletons tend to fly out of closets and there really is no telling what direction suits will take and who will be implicated, deposed, investigated etc.
I’ve heard enough of this Pastor Bob worship. To you sycophants overwhelmed by the personality of P-Bob. I worked at CCFTL for a year. I left as a result of challenging the leadership, which retreated into the reputation of their name and with a strict avoidance of scripture. The list of people I met face to face with? John Chinnely, Jerry Sanders, the head of the Calvary House ministry, John (don’t remember his last name). I was slandered by Loyd Pulley and His wife Karen as a result of their trip their for ministry and Karen utilized her relationship with Diane (Bob’s wife) to cause harm, her m.o. Beyond the personal experience, they lack the wisdom and discernment regarding their flocks spiritual well being. They hosted a concert for “Gongor” for the price of a ticket of course. This supposed Christian band is actually deep into eastern mystic practices and mysticism. You can look them up online. CCFTL’s influence on the promotion of the band had them scheduled to play at CC St. Petersburg FL. To those understanding how far Calvary Chapel, in total has drifted, to include CCFTL. St. Petersburg had the advertisement for Gongor on their homepage next to an ad for their spiritual leadership training focusing on how to distinguish wolves in sheeps clothing. When a friend contacted them making them aware of the dangers of the groups true spiritual practices it fell on deaf ears. So to you who want us to leave Bob alone, it isn’t Bob we are the most concerned about. It is those who will end up in hell for blindly following the blind.
Hopefully, a final word on the subject;
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
to be doers of the word
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matt 7:15-27 (KJV)
I don’t know how you determine s true spiritual leader. I look for someone who places the word above their reputation. It would appear Jesus taught that as well. Apparently to all those satisfied with money from benevolence funds and handing out food to the poor (which my wife and I did while I was there, under strict rules to do it their way, of course) will not be enough. Lack of true obedience to the word will result in a failled relationship with Christ. Psalm 138:2 tells us that God honors His word above His name. Yet they have chosen to honor their names above God’s word.
@grateful re: your may 14, at 1:07pm:
I guess if Webster’s Dictionary is your guide, then you have a point, however Scripture is my guide (and I assume the guide of Calvary Chapel as they advertise to “Teach the Bible Simply” etc).
The Greek word used for “gossip” used in Scripture has a bit of a different meaning than the Webster’s version that you posted above:
The word transliterated “gossip” is really only used once in the New Testament in 1 Timothy 5:13:
phluareó
phluareó: to talk nonsense
Original Word: φλυαρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phluareó
Phonetic Spelling: (floo-ar-eh’-o)
Short Definition: I gossip against
Definition: I gossip against, talk idly, make empty charges against, talk nonsense.
1 Timothy 5:13 At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.
Here are some Cross References that are Scriptures listed that express similar things according to Seminary Sources:
2 Thessalonians 3:11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
3 John 1:10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.
“Gossip” as you have chosen to define it from Webster’s Dictionary is not the “gossip” of the New Testament Greek, which is the Word of God…unless you esteem Webster’s above God’s Word..but I digress LOL.
My accusations are based in fact and much testimony. They are not ‘empty’ and they aren’t ‘nonsense’…they are of a serious nature and are issues that should be directly answered and dealt with in the church.
Now, I know since you probably attend Calvary Chapel you have a very low view of intellectualism and probably don’t grasp the clear point of difference between what Scripture says vs. what your interpretation of “gossip” is via a Webster’s dictionary…so knock yourself out and enjoy the CCool-Aid
As a former cc pastor, my personal dealings with ccfl and many of the other big cc corporate enterprises is that they are run like a family mafia with the “senior” pastor acting like a “christian” mob boss…
They cleverly disguise their family business of money laundering within their pseudo biblical veneer church they create and the poor dumb sheep believe that this is the way it is supposed to be and just play along…
This is why nepotism is rampant within cc… daddy pays well to keep the family secrets !
@288 easy there, Tiger. That post was not addressed to you. We have absolutely no doubt of YOUR claims. It was directed to post 281 and hence the “@grateful” (unless you are GRATEFUL too but I digress:) I want evidence for all of CCFtL and Pastor Bobs allegations, thats all. I dont see the harm in that.
LOL. Fair enough anonymous. I personally don’t have any testimonies/opinions/info that have been sent to me regarding Coy other than the good and bad that’s been expressed on this thread.
Coy doesn’t appear on the Adultery list or the porn list or the child abuse list or molestation list or the financial wrongdoing list that I’ve gathered through investigation with the info from former CC and CCCM insiders (plural).
If there is a big Bob Coy scandal out there, I am not aware of it (from my sources, plural).
People have the right to express their opinions and relate their take of their personal experiences at CCFtl and with Coy, whether good, bad or ugly. I hope he is conducting his CC Franchise well and following the Scriptural (and Governmental) rules.
The reports on here of the benevolence at CCFtl is good. It was good to hear a non-member member CCFtl family got actual practical help when they needed it. Some of the other reports are concerning and mirror concerns expressed by others about the Ethos of the CC Moses Model of church governance.
Fair enough and I AGREE on all points… just for the regard, Ive witnessed similiar benevolence from the CC – Plantation Campus. As well as great networking for those needing help and those offering it, as well as circulating resumes, etc.
@290 “I want evidence for all of CCFtL and Pastor Bobs allegations, thats all. I dont see the harm in that.”
I would urge the victim(s) not to put any evidence on this site no matter how tempting it seems. Because if Bob Coy is planning on suing anyone as intimated in 278 you don’t want to give away free discovery. Personally I don’t think Bob Coy is in a position to sue anyone…maybe the other way around.
There’s something called EVIDENCE
you cannot hide with… BENEVOLENCE.
So rest assured with CONFIDENCE
there will be RECOMPENCE.
Got some gossip on Pastro Bob and its a Doozy. Get this.
He tithes over 20% AND sponsors a bunch of kids from Compassion International.
Have at it.
LOL. It’s not gossip (by the Greek definition in Scripture) if it’s true
Glad to hear that about Coy. What a jerk. He should tithe at least 50% and sponsor 10x’s as many kids
(jk)
Hey, like a CCSP said today #ccspc he said to be “transparent”…which is good in a lot of ways, it keeps a ministry and SP accountable and dispels any speculation.
How would anonymous know what Coy gives to the church? How would he know it’s 20%? Anonymous, do you know what Bob Coy makes in salary and perks to know he’s giving 20%?
If Coy has open financial books and is transparent with perks, then I would be VERY impressed!
Unfortunately, I’m not so sure anonymous actually knows the numbers.
Grateful, LOL.
Pretty sure anonymous was just being facetious and has no clue what Coy gives or makes…and yes, the vast majority (if not all) CC’s have opaque finances, which is something they should consider changing…for their own accountability benefit.
actually pastor bob did say that he gives 20% in a service before
For his sake I hope he does; but it’s hard to trust a man’s words when the finances are not transparent and CC pastors are known for their creative accounting.
It’s like the pastors who, when pressed for some reason, say their salary is say $75K, when in fact they receive that, plus their wife receives $75K, plus their housing monies, gas money, new car provided by the church, gym membership, paid trips that are less and less ministry and more and more just a vacation, clothing allowance, and the best of all … anytime they take someone with them to a meal or coffee, the entire thing is paid for by the church.
So for a family of 6 that eats out almost every single breakfast, lunch and dinner, with 2 Venti Starbucks coffees @ $6 each per day for a year is a LOT of money! I know a CC pastor family that pulled that one off.
My point is that what a pastor says from the pulpit is not necessarily the whole truth, assuming it’s true in the first place.
But why is Coy saying in the pulpit how much he tithes? The New Testament doesn’t say to tithe, it tells us to give “hilarously” according to the Greek. Is he trying to get others to give more to his mininistry?
Again, I hope for his sake he does give freely … but not so he can get.
@299: “But why is Coy saying in the pulpit how much he tithes?”
My ‘expert’ friend likens such pathological behavior to “Public Masturbation”
But forget about BENEVOLENCE
Designed to hide the EVIDENCE.
Bob’s Senior Pastor’s CONFERENCE
Of orchestrated NONSENSE
Has lit the way for RECOMPENSE.
297 – No Alex. I wasnt being facetious. If not I would have said NO KIDDING. But I didnt. Some of us have access to information.
299 – Your post was NOT about Pastor Bob Coy was why are you writting that garbage here? If you ask me, he does not get nearly paid enough what he deserves. SO instead of being so jealous and envious, why dont you focus on increasing your own income so you dont continue to become the vile and miserable person you are?
Until then this is ALL CONJECTURE, and nonsense until proven true. Case closed.
297 – No Alex. I wasnt being facetious. If not I would have said NO KIDDING. But I didnt. Some of us have access to information.
299 – Your post was NOT about Pastor Bob Coy was why are you writting that garbage here? If you ask me, he does not get nearly paid enough what he deserves. SO instead of being so jealous and envious, why dont you focus on increasing your own income so you dont continue to become the vile and miserable person you are?
When you build a church that has 30k attendees a week and over 600 employees, THEN come speak.
Until then this is ALL CONJECTURE, and nonsense until proven true. Case closed.
alex/anonymous, LOL. You’re pretty funny (whether intended or not).
I hope Coy gives money to help folks and I hope CCFTL does a lot of benevolence etc, that would be in line with Jesus’s commands to help the orphan and widow and to love your neighbor etc.
To whom much is given, much is required. Appears Bob Coy has been given much if your attendance numbers are correct. I’m guessing with that kind of attendance there are millions of dollars at Coy’s disposal.
It would be great to see a Pastor like Bob Coy set a good example by having Open Finances. That would set a very good tone for the Movement. He could show what a responsible steward he is with God’s money.
A CCSP said it well at this year’s CCSPC 2012 regarding “transparency”…”If you’ve got nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to hide”…and I agree.
Just Dust at 249 said: “I wouldn’t stress over CCFTL’s finances because if you make it about money they win.”
Actually, I think if you make it about the money they lose because CCs fail in the area of financial accountabilty.
Carmen/Bob at 298 said: “actually pastor bob did say that he gives 20% in a service before”
How sad. That’s the sign of an insecure man. Further, the message of Matt 5:23-24 stresses the importance of reconciliation over giving. Mega church CC pastors seem to have a problem with reconciliation. Check this out Carmen/Bob:
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or
sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be
reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.”
This thread would indicate that Bob Coy is guilty of spiritual, emotional and verbal abuse and cyberstalking former attendee(s). But instead of dealing with it he’s engaging in coverup from the pulpit with assist from certain bloggers.
Grateful at 299 said: “But why is Coy saying in the pulpit how much he tithes? The New Testament doesn’t say to tithe, it tells us to give “hilarously” according to the Greek. Is he trying to get others to give more to his mininistry?”
My pastor would never make a public announcment about his private giving and he’s good at resolving conflicts before things get out of hand and take on a life of their own….cyber wars etc…
Besides, didn’t I read somewhere that the CC senior pastors own all the assets? If that’s true then 20% is a drop in the bucket. Rick Warren gives 90% and he didn’t volunteer that infomation. He had to be asked. And he doesn’t own all the assets at Saddleback, I don’t think.
I did a small group bible study once on the topic of giving I told the group I do tithe and before the study was over the HS convicted me that there was something really wrong about me saying that since most people don’t tithe and I had more disposable income than they do so it’s easier for me.
Alex at 303 said: “It would be great to see a Pastor like Bob Coy set a good example by having Open Finances. That would set a very good tone for the Movement. He could show what a responsible steward he is with God’s money.”
Keep dreamin’. Don’t you guys get it? That’s why there is not a membership at CCFTL and others. No membership = no open books = no financial and other accountability. My church has a membership and I can see the books.
Rich at 300 said:
@299: “But why is Coy saying in the pulpit how much he tithes?”
My ‘expert’ friend likens such pathological behavior to “Public Masturbation”
———————————————-
hereinafter “PM”
I think I get it. Just as M is sin and PM is double sin, likewise telling those outside your immediate family circle how much you tithe is wrong and making it public is doubly wrong.
When the discussion of membership and accountability comes up when I’m engaged at other churches, and it does so often, the don’t believe me that CC doesn’t have membership and open books. That notion lacks so much common sense that they just can’t believe it’s true.
I do hope the CCSPC’s discussing the issues of financial accountability and protection for kids is what finally opens the door for CC’s to begin to understand why this is so obviously important.
CF makes a great point that we must remember that God prioritizes making relationships right over giving. May God help us all to remember this and for CC to build this into their culture.
#304
“This thread would indicate that Bob Coy is guilty of spiritual, emotional and verbal abuse and cyberstalking former attendee(s). But instead of dealing with it he’s engaging in coverup from the pulpit with assist from certain bloggers.”
Im sorry did I miss the evidence for this? Or are we still discussing unfounded gossip?
Anonymous,
Your question displays both your lack of biblical acumen and cognitive reasoning. Firstly, what you are defing as unfounded would be what the scriptures defines as the contrary. Matt. 18:16 states that in the mouth of two or three witnesses a point is established. Paul exercised this in 2 Cor. 13:1. Secondly, Pauls first letter to the Corinthians was written on the basis that those in the house of Chloe were telling him what was wrong within the church at large. Thirdly, John has to address an issue similar to this site in his third epistle when he mentions the inapropriate behavior of Diotrophes. Oh yeah, it was the mistreated, kicked out of the church that made John aware of it.
So why does a site like this exist? Because, unlike the leadership of the first century that was concerned with glorifying Christ. Leadership is more concerned with maintaining the status quo.
I am tempted to conclude that you may be Bob Coy. Your cowardice of name and ignorance of the Word would help to substantiate that. However, if you are not you definetly display the fruits of his ministry. (I grow weary of dialoguing with the spiritually enept of CC.)
Ok Fair enough. Who are the two or three witnesses?
Anonymous,
My experience is detailled on another thread (happy reading). Having worked at CCFTL for a year, the list of other witnesses is long. People I know personally whose names I won’t divulge (I have no permission). The pressure to minister in a manner ordained by CC leadership had people intimidated.
Near the end of my tenure with CCFTL I was beginning to be ostracized for my stand on biblical truth. A friend who worked with me saw what was happening. He worked at CCFTL as well. He had come to the Lord through the Calvary House program. He was divorced but had a good relationship with his ex. The Lord was beginning to restore their relationship. She wasn’t saved. He invited my wife and me to his home under the strict orders that I couldn’t tell anyone at church that he had done so in fear of reprisal. He further instructed me not to talk about the Lord to his ex. He had invited other leadership of CC over and they were pharisaic in their approach leaving her embittered towards the Lord. to make a long story short. We had a wonderful time. She gave her life to Christ that night. We could not share the story at CCFTL for fear of the repercussions it would have in his relationship with the church. I respected that. Sadly, even though he had been asking for prayer for her salvation from the ministry group he was involved with, he couldn’t share the story of the glorious news. This is one of many stories I have. I find no need to convince you of what I know to be true.
Calvary chapel sucks and you should not go there. Trust me. I attended that church for a long time and the pastor is a “local wanna be” celebrity, who is just trying to get fame by the expense of others.
He is charismatic and he uses that for his advantage. They cut the jobs of so many people in that church, but several people from the pastor’s family work there and they have never been let go with the others. In fact he has given his brother in law a job at that church and the guy sucks as a leader and as pastor. Calvary is a scam and where there is smoke there is always fire, so be careful. People are not just making up these accusations. They preach forgiveness but they are extremely judgmental, however the people there do all kinds of wrongs. Pastor Bob is divorced but he is incredibly judgmental about other people ho are getting or have been divorced. He should have been more understanding since he has traveled that road. I know that he was not a pastor when he did it but we all have a moral sense and it’s wrong either way ( he can’t use that as an excuse) plus he is not God to judge anyone. They used to have this worship leader who flirted with a lot of girls there ( is name is Andrew Wooddell). He hid his girlfriend Chrissy for a long time and just flirted with a lot of other women which is embarrassing if you want to be taken seriously as a worship pastor. In that church it is all abut status. They have this singer called Amy, who is as shallow as a brick wall and she is one of the meanest girls in there. She terrorizes the people on their worship team and she is incredibly jealous of other pretty women (she disses the younger ones all the time). She is an old hag.
It’s a shallow church with shallow people. However I can’t say that everyone is bad, because Im sure that there is some poor sucker there (like I was) giving money and serving for all the right reasons. They don’t appreciate you there though if you are not in their cool little crappy club of idiots. It’s all about what you can do for them and not about what they can do for you. You can’t even talk to the pastor because again he thinks he is some sort of small town celebrity who is too good to talk to the members of his own church. It’s a pride-full place and I got out of there a long time ago and I will never go back. I prefer to go to a smaller church where people are sincere and know each other and respect one another ( and are there to serve God for the right reasons).
You can see it for yourself, go pay them a visit. If you are new you will like it for a while and then you will start noticing this that aren’t do great or biblical.
Good luck!
Correction: I mean you will start noticing things that aren’t great or biblical!
RE JERRY SANDER:
137: “Under a system like Calvary’s everyone is always vying for position. So when someone comes in and is starting to stand out it becomes threatening. The shorter version of the story is that Jerry Sanders and John (last name escapes me) the minister of the Calvary House began slandering my name to the guys in the Calvary House. Suddenly a wall was built. I addressed Jerry and he admitted to the situation placing a, “I was concerned for you spin on it.”
137: “Jerry and I ran across each other just outside of Bob’s office. He stopped me and asked what I thought I was doing. He appeared very frustrated. (His wife was Bob’s secretary, she grew very cold to me.) He then told me, “If you continue with what you are doing you are going to find yourself on the outs.” I told him, “If obeying the Lord puts me on the outs, I don’t want to be in.”
163: “Ask Jerry Sander and others from CCFTL about hunting dogs appearing out of nowhere and chasing after the facilitators/enablers/supporters of corruption and abuse that are the assistant pastors to the abusive and authoritarian senior pastor.”
286: “I worked at CCFTL for a year. I left as a result of challenging the leadership, which retreated into the reputation of their name and with a strict avoidance of scripture. The list of people I met face to face with? John Chinnely, Jerry Sanders, the head of the Calvary House ministry, John (don’t remember his last name). I was slandered by Loyd Pulley and His wife Karen as a result of their trip their for ministry and Karen utilized her relationship with Diane (Bob’s wife) to cause harm, her m.o.”
Jerry is Bob Coy’s brother-in-law (Diane Coy’s brother). To this end, Jerry is Bob Coy’s most ardent defender.
Coy and his confidants make a lot of money off their willing people. His ‘right hand’ men will protect him at any cost’ because it’s their bread and butter too.
And it’s a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ big money to them.
Stop following
RE anonymouse @#312
“They have this singer called Amy, who is as shallow as a brick wall and she is one of the meanest girls in there. She terrorizes the people on their worship team and she is incredibly jealous of other pretty women (she disses the younger ones all the time). She is an old hag.”
Saw this about Amy Evans:
“Fake Lady Gaga Is Really Calvary Chapel Singer Amy N. Evans”
http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/2011/04/fake_lady_gaga_amy_evans.php
Someone left the following comment about her:
“Amy Evans finally coming out of the dark shadows. Did she leave the world of witchcraft yet? or is she still casting spells on the innocent people and destroying babies”
So I’m wondering is Amy giving Bob lessons on numerolgy and such other evil? He’s ‘invoked’ 777 a couple times from the pulpit and I’ve noticed others doing simliar stuff from the pulpit as well. The Bible has something to say about that Bob?
I had something to say about this and I was asked to link back to my comments on another thread to keep things in context for the reader so here we go:
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1237#comment-46202
hey moderator man, i have one stuck in moderation
thanks!
Hey “know brainer” is Amy still on the CCFTL worship team? Just wondering based on the comment left 1 yr ago at the end of the Fake Lady Gaga article about her alleged involvement in ‘w!tchcraft’?
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1237#comment-46202
In your comment at the above link, you reference the 777 as being “a Vegas thing”. By that I take it you meant the fact that Bob Coy used to work in a Vegas casino and if you’re in Vegas, 777 usually means you won the jackpot?
Can you give me the dates when he used 777?
Thanks.
Anonymous at 312 said: “In fact he has given his brother in law a job at that church and the guy sucks as a leader and as pastor. Calvary is a scam and where there is smoke there is always fire, so be careful. People are not just making up these accusations.”
Totally agree that no one is making anything up. So can we not have people from CCFTL or pretending to be from CCFTL come on here asking for “evidence” and “witnesses”. This is serious business and Bob can and should be helped in a real way. So Bob please understand you can’t have your cake and eat it too by asking for evidence/witnesses and forgiveness at the same time: one precludes the other. Please pick one and stick with it. If you want to be forgiven for various sins (e.g., spritual abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, invasion of privacy leading to cyberstalking, slander and defamation) then you must ask for direct “offense-specific” and “person-specific” forgiveness. Try it Bob. I believe it will work for you.
This is my first time seeing this site and I read through some of these comments and I know that this needs to stop. There are some things said that border on viciousness and some people mentioned who are actually amazing Christ-loving people….People like Amy and Andrew and Chet and Doug for instance.
I had no idea about half of the allegations made about Bob. So I have no idea if all of them are true or not and therefore would neither defend or add to those allegations. I do believe that shepherds in the Church everywhere (not only Calvary Chapel) must be called to answer any un-biblical behavior and that people need to be warned about false doctrine or wolves and I believe that the initial intention of this site was pure but Alex has it truly maintained that purity? Is a site like this capable of maintaining purity at all since anyone is free to spout whatever bitterness is on their hearts? If we become bitter the enemy wins. The question is “How do we highlight problems in a way that is pleasing to God and which truly protects the Body of Christ”? Is this site really the way?
Yes there are problems at Calvary Chapel. It is clear from all of the things said by so many people that there are huge problems that grieve the heart of our Savior. Have I ever experienced anything personally? Yes I did and I made what I believed were Spirit-led, biblically-based attempts to address those issues, but that fact would never make me allow anyone to speak untruths about or discuss publically some of the innocent people I mentioned in my first paragraph and that type of thing needs to stop!
Calvary Chapel is just a reflection of things the Bible clearly warns us about. The things that have happened should be a warning to other churches to truly conduct themselves according to God’s Word and to be led by the Holy Spirit at all times. If there were problems with the way a church started in the first place every branch will have some corruption and when amazing God-loving people add themselves to that they get dragged into those problems.
Remember though that no purpose God has can be withheld from Him…read Job 42. So even the trials Alex faced or anyone else faced, God allowed. Were they painful and unfair? Yes, but Our Father knows about them and He is doing things we are not even aware of and trusting Him is a necessary part of walking with Him. Perhaps some of you now see Him better because of your trials and if so then that is an amazing blessing. If you do not I would recommend a few books that help to highlight what the Bible says about what our relationship with God should look like even in the midst of times of a falling away from faith. One of them is Andrew Murray’s Absolute Surrender and another is Tozer’s The Pursuit of God.
While I truly believe that judgment must begin at the house of the Lord and that shepherds who mislead the flock need to be highlighted the question is “What should we do next?” We should do what we should be doing at all times any way and that is to PRAY unceasingly, because we live in dark times and we want to be a light. We shouldn’t add to the darkness. There are people planted within every church to lead others astray. That is a biblically predicted truth and will not change. Christ tells us about the wheat and the tares and to be careful not to uproot the tares lest we also uproot the wheat. This site, though started with good intentions, may very well have the effect of troubling the wheat and strengthening the tares. Yes men like Paul highlighted the false leaders because leaders are held to a higher standard but what response should we have after we have done that? That is a question that I believe everyone on this forum needs to consider carefully. So I keep repeating that question.
There are some amazing things said by so many people here and such well-intentioned things but the ugly things said are really ugly and no one is ever blessed by ugliness. So Alex what can you do to stop the ugliness because if you allow it to continue Satan will win on this forum and people will not be warned but rather disgusted. Of course Satan loses in the end but do we want to give him even an ounce of victory in our lives as Christians? We are called to a Micah 6:8 reality that some of the comments on this site do not reflect.
I did not initially mention the fact that some people on this forum may be speaking evil of a brother because quite clearly there may actually be some people in any church building in places of leadership who are not truly brothers and some of the people on this site may have encountered these wolves. Wolves are not brothers, but this site leaves itself open to people who have not encountered wolves but who instead have personal issues or hatred of another brother and that is something that Jesus speaks about specifically. Alex you cannot police every comment so you have two options: To allow people whose intentions are not honorable to continue in their tirades or to take this site down. But I’ll share another option you have in addition to taking the site down.
How will Calvary Chapel correct its woes? PRAYER. How will Alex gain justice? PRAYER. How will anyone gain justice? PRAYER. How can we protect ourselves from bitterness or bad fruit in our own lives as the result of being exposed to wolves? PRAYER. The other day in prayer Psalm 35 came up and I asked God for its fulfilment in my own circumstances. You see, no matter what any one does to wrong me in life, in a church setting or a secular setting, I still have an Advocate and He lives to make intercession for me and I live to make intercession for others. So let’s stand in the gap for everyone involved and for everyone nationwide facing the things that the Bible said would happen in the latter times and then eventually for everyone worldwide facing it and let’s redeem the time because the days are evil.
I have a challenge for everyone who truly loves Jesus on this forum….and from what I have read there are a few who do… Let’s PRAY. Not the little platitudes that pass for prayer some times, but the prayer that the Bible mandates….fervent and effectual prayer and let’s fast too. Then let’s watch the Lord work because clearly from the things said on this site human efforts have had no results but when we go to God in earnest He hears us and He answers prayer! He loves His people! He truly does. He used the things I went through to draw me so close to Himself that I do not make a move now without Him saying to move and I am in the Word so much that my opinions have one by one been coming so much more completely into alignment with His. So anything the enemy meant for evil was used for good. Let’s truly be used by God’s by being in prayer and reflecting the heart of men like Joseph and Daniel and women like the biblical Hannah and Mary etc.
We are greatly adored by our Savior and truly everything in our lives from abuse to defamation of character will be used for good if we let Him use us. So join me in prayer and fasting for 7 days or 40 days whatever you feel led to do. Alex I would love to see this site taken down because some of the things on here are offensive and mean. They are not things said by you but the responsibility falls on you to prevent them. You are now the shepherd of this site. Let’s pray!
I am asking this with all the earnest pleading a person can muster because I want to see God move and the Body of Christ be strengthened by what He does. I want to see wrongs corrected and the world look at the Church and see the beauty of Jesus displayed. This battle is spiritual so it is the Lord’s and His eyes are roaming to and fro searching for loyal hearts through whom He can show His strength. Let’s exalt Him and honor Him in prayer and draw close to Him and let Him see the loayalty of our hearts displayed in these dark times so His light will be seen in us clearly and the harvest will be drawn to that Light. Jesus is still the only answer to any question and He is still and will always be the Way, Truth and Life.
Thank you so much and I will be praying for you to do what God leads you to do.
Blessings, love, grace and peace.
Concerned
Concerned, thanks for your input.
I’d say the site is much like Calvary Chapel and the “church” in general…made up of imperfect folks. No way to have it 100% pure as we all aren’t Jesus.
Certainly CC and the “church” at large doesn’t maintain the 100% Purity Standard (not by a long shot)…yet those voicing their thoughts, opinions, experiences, concerns etc are held to a 100% Purity Standard.
I have always found this dynamic interesting. Pastors and Churches: “Grace me bro! We’re not perfect! We’re doing the best we can!”
Critics of the Pastors and churches: “You’re not doing it perfectly!!!! It’s not 100% pure and is helping the devil!”
I extend Grace and the benefit of the doubt to those who comment here. The info I post, I stand behind (and have the goods…and much hasn’t been disclosed). Others have the right to voice their opinions and experiences and if their allegations are false, then shame on them and may God deal with them.
…from my personal experiences, I find it easy to believe many of the allegations as I’ve seen similar demonstrated by others in CC (unfortunately).
As far as those folks you named (and Bob Coy for that matter), I don’t know. They might be great folks and falsely accused…but there seems to be some other folks who have a difference of opinion and experiences that contradict your take.
If I was those folks, I’d consider the criticism, extend grace if it wasn’t true and pray for the folks who are obviously upset about something they experienced there at CCFTL.
I’d even reach out them and try to have a dialogue and try to reconcile and make peace, own what I should own and take the high road and example “the Servant of All” etc. It’s tough to do, but those in “Ministry” are called to do that and they are held to a “stricter standard/judgment”…at least Scripture seems to say so.
Concerned, I do think you have a good heart though (my subjective interpretation of your words) and I think you hit the nail on the head when you point to Jesus Christ as the answer for all of us.
…I do disagree, however, about some of your other Conclusions.
I pray all the time about all this stuff and many others on here have articulated they do as well. It was after much prayer that I started this site. It has brought a lot of info to the fore-front and has led (in part) to some changes in Calvary Chapel and some healthy discussions to take place. This past CCSPC 2012 is fruit of the calls for CC to focus on Financial integrity and Child Protection Laws etc etc. and a refreshing tone (set by Brian Brodersen).
Concerned said, ‘Then let’s watch the Lord work because clearly from the things said on this site human efforts have had no results…”
I would disagree with that statement. God is answering prayer in droves. CC is neck deep in Child Molestation lawsuits in Idaho (and those suits, I’m convinced, will bring much needed correction and cause CC to protect kids better), there are criminal investigations into some of the things we’ve documented on here (and more coming hopefully), we’ve had over 1.5 million hits on the blog in 2 years as well as tons of coverage on other sites other media etc so the Issues are getting attention, people are being warned and the message of making some of things a priority is being heard (and responded to).
I was told that much that happened at the last CCSPC 2012 was “in spite of” this blog, etc and that much more is coming…to which I replied “good, I don’t care, as long as it happens”…but I am intelligent enough to know that w/o all the noise, not much would’ve gotten done. That’s just human nature. The fact is, CC is much more focused than ever on the issues raised here…and they should be. There are consequences for the Status Quo. The stuff isn’t Godly and they should make changes…or face the sowing of what they’ve been reaping.
My prayer is that CC continues to focus on what I heard coming out of CCSPC 2012 and takes this stuff seriously. It is to their benefit. Who wants a bunch of hurt people, abused kids, financial scandal and all the other garbage following them around?
It’s a pretty simple message: Be more like Jesus, clean up your acts (CC) and stop treating people like they are expendable. Sheep are often dirty and hard to love…Good Shepherds are still called to “leave the 99 and save the 1″…not shun them and black ball them and do the CC to them. And, shocker, sometimes the so-called Good Shepherds aren’t so “good” and make big mistakes and should be held to account…and they should respond in humility and repentance when they’re wrong (but good luck convincing some of these guys they ever do anything wrong…until an outside authority deals with them).
Alex,
I decided to check on what response my comment encouraged and I am a little sad as a result. When I stated that human efforts had no results my sentence was not clear. I should have said that human efforts had “no lasting Kingdom results”. I am so sorry for all you went through. I am so sorry for everything anyone on this site went through and for the fact that a site like this was even necessary and again I believe you were well-intentioned but the major issue I had is the fact that when innocent people get caught in the cross-fire they become placed in a victim status when they did nothing wrong and that is unfair. Also, even if Calvary Chapel remedies all of its issues that still will not correct issues in other churches because there truly is a spiritual battle behind all of this…so prayer is the answer.
Is abuse ever right? No it is not and as someone who has also lived through child abuse (not from a church member though) my compassion and empathy are real but I forgave and it brought me peace and God actually changed the person involved and I saw His glory at work and how what I went through prepared my heart to understand my desperate need for Jesus and to have compassion for others. So Romans 8:28 played itself out in my life.
My life is a testimony to the power of the Cross and when I faced my own difficulties with wolves God kept my heart from becoming stony and kept me from total despair by reminding me that just as He was able to take away the hurt of my childhood, He is able to take away any hurt and to keep my eyes focused on His love and goodness and mercy and grace towards me so that I can have the capacity to extend that towards others. The point is not whether you or others have have a just claim but whether or not you want to encourage anyone who does not have a just claim to malign the reputation of people who have done nothing wrong.
Yes we have not yet attained perfection, but if we are pressing on to the mark of the high calling we too are held to a higher standard of loving others. I will not respond to your next response. I randomly did a search for Calvary Chapel today because I have been praying very seriously about some things but for me there will be no more online searches because as much as they confirm the seriousness of the problems I know that my role at this point is to pray. I will pray for you that everything works out in terms of total justice being obtained and for the restoration of your family and just in general for you and this site. Read Psalm 35 and perhaps it will help you to understand more clearly the heart behind my last post when I said that we should pray, but also read Psalm 7 because there we see how David knew that none of us is all that we should be at all times and was willing to place everything before the Lord one way or the other.
I was asking everyone here to do that through prayer and fasting and I am still asking that, but that is an individual choice and all I can do is ask or even beg. If one of the goals is to see people repent and come to true saving faith in Jesus, God alone can truly make that happen and corporate prayer is powerful.
Be blessed and take care,
Concerned
Concerned, yes prayer is important…I just think you might be assuming that this stuff hasn’t (and isn’t) being prayed over and over again. It has. I prayed for 4 years and stayed relatively silent (taking the advice of Greg and Sue Dowds the 2 CC Elders who told be to go my way, leave it to the Lord, don’t harm the church and to pray about the abuses…rather than them doing what is Scripturally commanded in 1 Timothy 5:19-22.
When one prays…and prays…and they believe God tells them to do something…are they to just keep praying…or actually do something?
I stepped out and did something b/c I felt God wanted it done…with much prayer…and I appreciate the reminder to continue to pray for these situations and I appreciate your input.
If someone prayed and prayed and prayed…and God told them to do something…what should they do? How can you say it’s not “of God” as we are all imperfect vessels…and Pastors often don’t example perfection when they do the stuff they claim they are doing for the Lord…as exampled many times over on here?
My sincere belief is that God directed this, even if imperfect, to deal with some of these issues…and thanks for your prayers and thank you for the reminders to pray. My main contention is that pray is only part of the equation…if God tells you to do something…one should step out in faith and do it and let the chips fall where they may.
If you feel some people have been falsely accused on here, please let me know who and what and why for consideration.
Concerned,
Chuck Smith said in the distinkives:
“I get angry at Satan when I hear of a gifted minister who has fallen. Those that have great abilities and great talents for the Lord seem to be a special target of Satan. I’m just notwilling to let Satan have a victory. I try to reclaim these men for the kingdom of God so that they might use their talents for the Lord”.
I think the anger is justified at the sinner and not just at Satan. Its not Chuck’s job to access anyone’s abilities or talents particulary those that are in sin. Yes, Satan temps and not just the super star giants that Chuck refers to. However its our own evil desires that lead us astray. ( James 1:14) I personally think one of the best ways to reclaim some of these men for the kingdom of God is to get them out of the pulpit and don’t put them in leadership positions. Just read the thousands of testimonies of those that have been hurt.
Some of these pastors are unqualified to lead, teach, be elders and most importantly shouldn’t be sitting in Mose’s seat. This isn’t really directed at Bob Coy since I don’t know much about him but I think any CC Senior Pastor who sits in Mose’s seat should take warning. The Moses model is not a new testament example or model for the church and is based solely on the old testament nation of Israel. Sorry but this form of church government is never found in the new testament, was never practiced in church history until Chuck invented it unless of course you count the Roman Catholic church.
Andrew aren’t you being hypocritical? Pastor Chuck isn’t qualified but you are? Does this mean you know more and are a better judge than Pastor Chuck. How large is your congregation?
Who’s who?
Are you suggesting that we are to look at the size of someone’s congregation to see if what they are saying is true? Take a look at Tommy Sparger’s congregation and his many multi-sites. Maybe Chuck can re-abilitate Tommy Sparger in a couple of months and he will become a CC pastor.
Andrew @ 326 said:
Chuck Smith said in the distinkives:
“I get angry at Satan when I hear of a gifted minister who has fallen. Those that have great abilities and great talents for the Lord seem to be a special target of Satan. I’m just notwilling to let Satan have a victory. I try to reclaim these men for the kingdom of God so that they might use their talents for the Lord”.
whos_who at 327-329 asked 3 times:
“Andrew aren’t you being hypocritical? Pastor Chuck isn’t qualified but you are? Does this mean you know more and are a better judge than Pastor Chuck. How large is your congregation?”
Maybe Chuck can “…try to reclaim these men [Coy & Laurie] for the kingdom of God so that they might use their talents for the Lord”:
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1237#comment-47836
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1237#comment-47840
‘whos_who’ do you know if Coy & Laurie are gay lovers and who was the person in the audience asking Coy to kiss Laurie? The 3rd person in the CC gay love triangle?
Lord have mercy.
Wow, that’s a mighty long comment there by ‘concerned’ at 320. It’s gotta be the the longest comment on the site at over 1500 words! Looks more like an attempt to lecture vs. dialogue. Interesting strategy.
Andrew @ 326 said:
Chuck Smith said in the distinkives:
“I get angry at Satan when I hear of a gifted minister who has fallen. Those that have great abilities and great talents for the Lord seem to be a special target of Satan. I’m just notwilling to let Satan have a victory. I try to reclaim these men for the kingdom of God so that they might use their talents for the Lord”.
whos_who at 327 said:
“Andrew aren’t you being hypocritical? Pastor Chuck isn’t qualified but you are? Does this mean you know more and are a better judge than Pastor Chuck. How large is your congregation?”
Maybe Chuck can “…try to reclaim these men [Coy & Laurie] for the kingdom of God so that they might use their talents for the Lord”:
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1237#comment-47836
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1237#comment-47840
‘whos_who’ do you know if Coy & Laurie are gay lovers and who was the person in the audience asking Coy to kiss Laurie? The 3rd person in the CC gay love triangle?
Lord help us all.
anonymouse/bob? @302 says:
“When you build a church that has 30k attendees a week and over 600 employees, THEN come speak.”
Since you’re all into numbers Bob, here are the real numbers:
TOP LARGEST U.S. GIGACHURCHES (including invisible gigachurches) according to Outreach magazine:
http://churchrelevance DOT com/top-71-largest-gigachurches-in-america-2011-edition/
1.43,500 // Lakewood Church (Houston, TX) – Joel Osteen
2.27,429 // North Point Community Church (Atlanta, GA) – Andy Stanley
3.26,776 (2009) // LifeChurch.tv (Edmond, OK) – Craig Groeschel
4.24,377 // Willow Creek Community Church (South Barrington, IL) – Bill Hybels
5.23,900 (2006) // Without Walls International (Tampa, FL) – Paula White
6.20,801 // Southeast Christian Church (Louisville, KY) – Dave Stone
7.20,000 (2008) // West Angeles Church of God in Christ (Los Angeles, CA) – Charles Blake
8.19,742 // Saddleback Church (Lake Forest, CA) – Rick Warren
9.18,386 // Woodlands Church (Woodlands, TX) – Kerry Shook
10.18,223 // Central Christian Church (Las Vegas, NV) – Jud Wilhite
11.18,061 // Second Baptist Church (Houston, TX) – Ed Young, Sr.
12.17,900 // First Assembly of God (Phoenix, AZ) – Tommy Barnett
13.17,887 – Christ’s Church of the Valley (Peoria, AZ) :: Don Wilson
14.17,000 (2008) // The Potter’s House (Dallas, TX) – TD Jakes
15.16,621 // Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale (Ft. Lauderdale, FL) – Bob Coy
16.16,000 (2008) // Hopewell Missionary Baptist (Norcross, GA) – William Sheals
17.15,722 // Christ Fellowship (Palm Beach Gardens) – Tom Mullins
18.15,704 // Gateway Church (Southlake, TX) – Robert Morris
19.14,776 // First Baptist Church (Hammond, IN) – Jack Schaap
20.14,525 // Family Christian Center (Munster, IN) – Stephan Munsey
Anonymous @312 says:
“Pastor Bob is divorced but he is incredibly judgmental about other people who are getting or have been divorced. He should have been more understanding since he has traveled that road. I know that he was not a pastor when he did it but we all have a moral sense and it’s wrong either way ( he can’t use that as an excuse) plus he is not God to judge anyone.”
He’s divorced? Didn’t know that. Can anyone confirm that? Most pastors I know are not divorced in keeping with the 1Timothy 3 requirement. But it seems (most/some) CC pastors like Bob Coy only believe parts of that passage and toss out the rest.
For the record, I don’t believe “one wife” means “one wife at a time” (polygamy) or it would say that. Besides there’s no record of polygamy being a problem in the church or even among the Romans, Greek pagans at the time. Therefore, I have to conclude witih most once-married pastors that “one wife” means never divorced.
Can the divorced and remarried Christian man (or one who commits and repents of adultery) be Spirit-filled and useful in Kingdom work? Absolutely! But the office of pastor (sorry Bob but King David was not a pastor) is one for which a divorced and remarried man or unfaithful husband is disqualified. These are the men who are more likely to struggle with reflecting the unfailing love of Christ for His church and end up abusing the sheep particularly if ‘his’ church is a CC non-denominational denomination mega church of 16K+ consisting of non-member members under the made-up unbiblical, authoritarian, I’m-accountable-to-God-only, Moses Model.
once a cc guru @280:
“Too may ccft paid staff trolls on here trying to make pastor bob look good”
Yeah and what’s with all the spam?? I even saw one link directing us to a p0rn site! Talk about re-abusing the abused. I bet it’s all a part of CCFTL’s war ministry.
carmen @298:
actually pastor bob did say that he gives 20% in a service before”
anonymouse @299:
He tithes over 20% AND sponsors a bunch of kids from Compassion International.
Have at it.”
CF Lover @302:
How sad. That’s the sign of an insecure man. Further, the message of Matt 5:23-24
stresses the importance of reconciliation over giving. Mega church CC pastors seem to have a problem with reconciliation. Check this out Carmen/Bob:
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or
sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be
reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.”
“This thread would indicate that Bob Coy is guilty of spiritual, emotional and verbal abuse and cyberstalking former attendee(s). But instead of dealing with it he’s engaging in coverup from the pulpit with assist from certain bloggers.”
CF Lover @302:
“So Bob please understand you can’t have your cake and eat it too by asking for evidence/witnesses and forgiveness at the same time: one precludes the other. Please pick one and stick with it. If you want to be forgiven for various sins (e.g., spritual abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, invasion of privacy leading to cyberstalking, slander and defamation) then you must ask for direct “offense-specific” and “person-specific” forgiveness.”
______________________
CF, I like Jesus’ approach to conflict resolution in Matthew 5:23-24. The backdrop is a
worship setting in the temple in Jerusalem/modern day church, and offering could include gifts, prayers, 20% giving, sacrifices or even sponsored “kids from Compassion International” and sending your kid to Africa and Latin America. Reconciliation must precede worship because unresolved conflict has priority and must be settled.
It is clear that Jesus is telling the offender to take the initiative in the reconciliation process. And there is a reason for that. Just think about it.
The Lord is concerned about what we might have done to cause offense to a brother or a sister to cause him/her to have ought against us in turn causing us to have to leave your offering & gifts at the altar and make things right. Because, God would rather see us resolve our differences than receive our offerings.
Max Lucado said this is the only time God tells us to slip out of church early. Well said brother Max.
have one in moderation, alex
RICH @ 331 said:
“Can the divorced and remarried Christian man (or one who commits and repents of adultery) be Spirit-filled and useful in Kingdom work? Absolutely! But the office of pastor (sorry Bob but King David was not a pastor) is one for which a divorced and remarried man or unfaithful husband is disqualified. These are the men who are more likely to struggle with reflecting the unfailing love of Christ for His church and end up abusing the sheep particularly if ‘his’ church is a CC non-denominational denomination mega church of 16K+ consisting of non-member members under the made-up unbiblical, authoritarian, I’m-accountable-to-God-only, Moses Model.”
Totally agree Rich. This may be why Bob Coy has these pending issues. A divorced ‘pastor’, regardless of who was at fault in the breakup or when the divorce took
place (pre- or post-salvation), has forfeited the ability to replicate/simulate that image of
Christ. Same is true of an adulterous ‘pastor’ because according to the Bible
e.g., the words of God, Jesus and Paul, a married pastor who had adulterous relations with someone other than his wife is no longer the “husband of one wife” as per the “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24) doctrine and therefore is disqualified to serve as pastor.
Andrew 328, I said you were hypocritical. You said Pastor Chuck was not qualified but you were! What are your accomplishments for God.
In your mind you are beyond sin.
Just Dust / Rich 334 What does the bible say about sin? Something like, He is faithful and just to forgive all sin. While we were yet sinners He did something. How much sin did He take away?
Sin is Sin! No good or bad sin.
I do not believe there is a license for anyone to willfully and habitually sin.
How often have you heard anyone speak about the sin of gluttony? Hmmm anyone on here overweight?
“the words of God, Jesus and Paul, a married pastor who had adulterous relations with someone other than his wife is no longer the “husband of one wife” as per the “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24) doctrine and therefore is disqualified to serve as pastor.”
Wouldn’t that then disqualify any man to become Pastor who has had “one flesh” relations with a woman (Genesis 2:24) prior to his wife?
whoes who @ 337 wrote:
How often have you heard anyone speak about the sin of gluttony? Hmmm anyone on here overweight?
Every hear of thyroid disease? Don’t be so quick to associate being over weight with gluttony. They may be related at times but not the same thing.
whos_who @337 says: “Just Dust / Rich 334 What does the bible say about sin? Something like, He is faithful and just to forgive all sin. While we were yet sinners He did something. How much sin did He take away?”
Sin is Sin! No good or bad sin.”
Comment 334 is now 335.
First off 335 and earlier comments make it abundantly clear that God forgives divorce as he does murder or any other sin so that’s not the issue. At issue here is whether or not a pastor who was divorced pre-salvation then remarries post-salvation is qualified to become a pastor under the one-wife rule of 1 Tim. 3:2.
I share the widely-held belief that because God sets the highest standards for his under
shepherds, we must take the strictest interpretation of 1Tim. 3:2 and apply it to pastors like Bob Coy holding the highest office in the church. And when you have a mega-church like CCFTL, the largest CCFTL in the world, no membership…etc… you better believe we’re going to apply the highest of standards.
If all sin is sin then all crime is crime and we know that’s not true or the person who commits petty larceny would get the same punishment as the murderer right? From a logical and moral/biblical standpoint you’re not making sense just trying to confuse the koolaid-drinking, low-information readers.
Scripture requires a senior pastor like Bob Coy to be blameless (not perfect) and above reproach and he is far from that based on the totallity of comments on this thread and a mountain of supporting evidence we’ve been kind to withold from the public eye in the interest of decency and advancing the Kingdon.
We hold the office of the presidency to very high standards and divorced and remarried presidential candidates don’t fair well. In fact, Reagan was the only divorced presidential candidate to win election. So why would you want the office of God’s under shepherd held to a lower standard than the presidency and the same standard as lay people?
So sin is not sin. It depends on the type of sin and whose comitting the sin. Sounds like a double standard but it’s backed up by scripture.
Jesus said in a very straight forward way in John 19:11, before Pilate, “The person who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin.”
Greater sin, lesser sin. Hmmmm.
Also, in Matthew 23, Jesus delivers 7 woes to Jewish leadership one of which involved their habbitof tithing even their seasonings: “mint, dill, and cumin” while ignoring “the weightier provisions of the Law” and He likened them to a dead man’s rotting bones. So there are lesser provisions and greater provisions of the Law. Therefore, by deductive reasoning it makes sense that if you disregard the greater provisions then you’re guilty of a greater sin.
“I do not believe there is a license for anyone to willfully and habitually sin.”
So why is Bob Coy engaged in willful, habitual sin for how many years now Bob? Ask him about the wreckage he’s left behind. But I guess none of that matters when you have a large church. We all know that’s Bob’s defense for everything.
There are no biblical loopholes to justify Bob Coy’s illegitimate pastorate that is responsible for the illegitimate war he started that he cannot or will not end going on how many years now Bob?
Hannah @ #338 said:
“Wouldn’t that then disqualify any man to become Pastor who has had “one flesh” relations with a woman (Genesis 2:24) prior to his wife?”
Good question and the short answer is: No, not every man who has had “one flesh”
relations with a woman prior to his wife is disqualified from becomnig a pastor. There also has to be the exchange of “til death do us part” marriage vows resulting in husband & wife until one of them dies. When you clue 2 separate pieces of paper together then try to pry them apart….you can’t. You get the idea.
At issue here is whether or not a man who is divorced and remarried biblically qualified to be pastor according to 1 Timothy 3:2. I realize that my response will be blunt and straight forward, and I may not even come across as being very tactful. But understand that I too, am sick to death of this holier than thou attitude that blatantly ignores God’s word and sanctimoniously looks down its long noses at people like me who love God’s word and truthfully proclaim it. So before a Holy and Just God I will not apologize for the response I’m about to give.
Although God’s word on the issue is clear as a bell, I do not write this lightly, but with fear
and trembling. First of all Bob Coy you have to know that God is giving us the highest of
standards for a man who would desire to be a pastor: God’s under shepherd.
The question for Bob and his supporters/enablers/disablers is not, whether CCFTL is large and whether souls are being saved, but what does God through the Bible says about the matter and should we obey Him. Here’s the real shocker: no one is so important to God that God would set aside His Truth and righteous principles simply to use that man.
A man who was divorced before he got saved is disqualified from being a pastor, even though he is now saved and forgiven, but still has a living first wife and a current second wife because divorce did not nullify the first marriage in God’s eyes…2 pieces of paper clued together…etc right Bob?
Since Coy has 2 living wives and 2 is 1 more than he is allowed to have under the
“one wife” rule for pastors, he is disqualified from being a pastor. Bob, “one wife” means ONE LIVING WIFE at a time to distinguish between a man who remarries after divorce and one who remarries after his wife dies. Death ends the marriage vows: “Til death do us part.” so a man whose wife has pasted away is not married, there is no marriage in heaven, that man is free to remarry if he so desires.
What is happening in our churches today is that people are looking a their “wonderful” divorced mega church pastor and saying: “See it turned out well for him and it will for me too.” This is one reason the divorce rate in the church has overtaken the divorce rate among non-christians.
A church led by a divorced and remarried man has a man in its pulpit that God did not call to be there, and that is a chilling thought. I submit that Bob’s multi-faceted, protracted, never before seen war that he’s been carrying on, exists because he is not called in the position he’s in today. It’s as if he doesn’t know how to resolve the problem he created or he refuses to do so in disobedience to God. I don’t know which is worse: ignorance or disobedience. But whichever it is, it stems from being in a position for which he’s not called.
Yes, God forgives; absolutely He forgives, and yes a divorced man can be used of God and live a godly life after his divorce, but he remains unqualified to lead God’s sheep.
Respectfully, I hope this helps Bob Coy, his men (Doug, Jerry, Chet, Fidel, Greg, Bob Barnes, Billy), their wives and others understand these important truths. I am amazed that there is so much confusion on the matter when the word of God is perfectly clear. It is clear to me that Satan who is the author of lies is behind all the confusion because God is not the author of confusion. There are many ways a divorced man can serve God, but not from the pulpit.
have one stuck in filter…scripture links?
“Since Coy has 2 living wives and 2 is 1 more than he is allowed to have under the
“one wife” rule for pastors, he is disqualified from being a pastor. Bob, “one wife” means ONE LIVING WIFE at a time to distinguish between a man who remarries after divorce and one who remarries after his wife dies. Death ends the marriage vows: “Til death do us part.” so a man whose wife has pasted away is not married, there is no marriage in heaven, that man is free to remarry if he so desires.”
Oh yeah I agree “husband of one wife” is not referring to polygamy or one wife at a time. Because if it was one wife at a time, then a pastor candidate could say he had 1 wife every 2 years at a time having gone thru 5 wives in 10 years! So that leaves only the once-married option unless I’m missing something.
I also agree the problem is not necessarily the divorce so much as it is being in another marriage while one still has a living wife?
It is clear that Paul set the standard so high to help prevent a pastor from bringing reproach upon the name of Christ.
Also, I prefer to think that God uses His Word not the pastor no matter how charismatic he may be, and we know God’s Word does not come back void. There are examples in the Bible of the most reprobate people speaking truth, but they were as lost as a lamb.
We muddy this stuff up because we don’t go to God’s Word. Instead, we look at externals and decide whether or not it’s of God. Folks, that’s how deception creeps in. Never judge by externals, but weigh all things according to scripture. Let’s stop weighing according to emotions and appearances.
For the record, I don’t support women as pastors, yet Paula White’s church is # 5 on the list I put up in #330:
“5. 23,900 (2006) // Without Walls International (Tampa, FL) – Paula White”
Plus I think both her and her ex are twice divorced so that’s really messed up. Those externals can be very deceiving….
Sorry Paula.
Just Dust 340. Jesus said, I ALWAYS do the will of my Father. Can you make that statement?
Will you list five of your sins that you consider the worst?
Yes, Pastors & teachers, shall receive greater judgement. Are you the judge?
Which are you, a teacher or pastor? Which do you aspire to be? Or do you diminish your responsibility by not being anything but judgemental. You seem to be one that would condemn Jesus for his innocence. I’m not saying Coy is innocent but what good comes from repeating a person’s sin?
Obviously you are unable to forgive. Isn’t that sin? Eph 4
You are drunk on your own intelligence and condemnation of others.
Rich 343 / 344 . Paul set the standard due to the culture.
What is your standard? You were speaking about pastors having one wife.
Can a person be a christian if they’ve been divorced and remarries?
Can a woman be a pastor / teacher if a man won’t step up?
JD at 340 said:
“I share the widely-held belief that because God sets the highest standards for his under
shepherds, we must take the strictest interpretation of 1Tim. 3:2 and apply it to pastors like Bob Coy holding the highest office in the church. And when you have a mega-church like CCFTL, the largest CCFTL in the world, no membership…etc… you better believe we’re going to apply the highest of standards.”
Actually, I don’t think this is the strictest of interpetations. Your position is actually mild merciful given the circumstances, and for that I think the Lord will honor you as you seek to proclaim his Truth and let the chips fall where they may including your willingness to be persecuted for Righteousness Sake.
The subject of divorce and remarriage within the pastorate is a hotly debated one and I believe the strictest interpretation forbids a Christian man (especially one desiring to be senior pastor of any church let alone the largest CC in the world) to divorce even if the wife cheats on him. The strictest interpretation says Bob Coy’s remarriage is an adulterous one because he has 2 living wives, and the fact that God forgave Bob (assuming he has asked for forgiveness) is irrelevant wrt the requirements for the solemn high office of pastor that Paul (inspired by God) wrote about in Timothy. A once-married pastor having one-living-wife-at-a-time is just one of the characteristics of being ‘blameless’ and ‘above reproach’.
The Moses Modelers in Jesus’ time (aka Pharisees) tried to test Jesus on the subject of divorce when they asked him in Matthew chapter 19:
“Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
In verse 9 JESUS said: “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
7 “Why then,” they [Pharisees] asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Why would any Christian pastor want to model Moses, the man who instituted divorce and its cousin:adultery?
And what was Jesus’ response to the woman caught in adultery?
What was his response to the woman at the well?
Go ahead and cast your stones!!!
Looks like progress is being made on this thread in that Bob Coy (based on comments by whos_who) is conceding that he is an adulterer having divorced and remarried a different woman than his first living wife, that God still considers Bob’s first marriage legitimate, that divorce from Bob’s first wife did not break the marriage bond and make him “single again” and free to remarry a second time, that Bob’s second marriage did not annul/dissolve the first one.
So the question now becomes:
Is Bob Coy’s remarital adultery in his current marriage a one time act or a state of being?
Specifically, is it a one time act that the remarried couple can repent of and continue in their remarried state without separating or making any other changes? Or is it a continuous act that they should repent of and separate?
I realize these are difficult questions and my words may come across as fighting words hopefully said in the spirit of Christian love. Myy experience as a born again spirit filled Christian says God is able to do far more abundantly, exceedingly above what we could ask or think if we trust him.
So here we go.
If remarital adultery is a continuous act, then Bob Coy is continuing to live in adultery and
should repent and forsake. I submit that scripture shows that Bob Coy’s remarital adultery is continuous adultery; a state of being. Present tense in the Greek usually describes a continuous activity:
The Greek word for ‘adultery’ used in Mark 10:11, Luke 16:18 etc… is ‘Moichao’ (See Strong’s number 3429) and it is in the present continuous tense. Amazingly it is the same word for adultery use in the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8.
Hence, because ‘Moichao’ is being used in the present continuous tense in Matthew, Mark, Luke & John the admonition to Bob Coy is the same admonition Jesus gave to the woman caught in the act of adultery. Here it is Bob: “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
I know Bob’s supporters will say that Bob is in a happy marriage now and would not want that happy marriage to end. Respectfully, really? So God will justify our sins if it makes us happy? Where in scripture does it say God places happiness over holiness? Yes absolutely, God wants us happy, but on His terms not ours. When we pursue holiness, God will take care of the happiness. I can testify to that.
So my humble advice to Bob is, take the clearest path to heaven which may be the most unpopular, ridden with persecution, but it is the safest way to the Pearly Gates. Will you do it Bob? Will you help him Eric, Fidel, Doug, Jerry, Chet, Stephan, Billy, Greg & Bob B? Guys, I mean really help your brother….our brother. Thank you Jesus.
New here. Looks like progress is being made on this thread in that Bob Coy (based on comments by whos_who) is conceding that he is an adulterer having divorced and remarried a different woman than his first living wife, that God still considers Bob’s first marriage legitimate, that divorce from Bob’s first wife did not break the marriage bond and make him “single again” and free to remarry a second time, that Bob’s second marriage did not annul/dissolve the first one.
So the question now becomes:
Is Bob Coy’s remarital adultery in his current marriage a one time act or a state of being?
Specifically, is it a one time act that the remarried couple can repent of and continue in their remarried state without separating or making any other changes? Or is it a continuous act that they should repent of and separate?
I realize these are difficult questions and my words may come across as fighting words hopefully said in the spirit of Christian love. Myy experience as a born again spirit filled Christian says God is able to do far more abundantly, exceedingly above what we could ask or think if we trust him.
So here we go.
If remarital adultery is a continuous act, then Bob Coy is continuing to live in adultery and
should repent and forsake. I submit that scripture shows that Bob Coy’s remarital adultery is continuous adultery; a state of being. Present tense in the Greek usually describes a continuous activity:
The Greek word for ‘adultery’ used in Mark 10:11, Luke 16:18 etc… is ‘Moichao’ (See Strong’s number 3429) and it is in the present continuous tense. Amazingly it is the same word for adultery use in the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery in John.
Hence, because ‘Moichao’ is being used in the present continuous tense in Matthew, Mark, Luke & John the admonition to Bob Coy is the same admonition Jesus gave to the woman caught in the act of adultery. Here it is Bob: “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
I know Bob’s supporters will say that Bob is in a happy marriage now and would not want that happy marriage to end. Respectfully, really? So God will justify our sins if it makes us happy? Where in scripture does it say God places happiness over holiness? Yes absolutely, God wants us happy, but on His terms not ours. When we pursue holiness, God will take care of the happiness. I can testify to that.
So my humble advice to Bob is, take the clearest path to heaven which may be the most unpopular, ridden with persecution, but it is the safest way to the Pearly Gates. Will you do it Bob? Will you help him Eric, Fidel, Doug, Jerry, Chet, Stephan, Billy, Greg & Bob B? Guys, I mean really help your brother….our brother. Thank you Jesus for what You’re doing here.
Thank you Alex. I see that first comment eventually made it up so just ignore the second one.
I felt led to follow up and say the church of yester-year taught that a Coy-type remarriage is adultery. And that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Paul actually listed “adulterers” right alongside drunkards, homosexuals, swindlers and fornicators as being those who “shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9-10). Adultery is a very serious matter, and, unless repented of, a deadly matter.
Sadly, today there are few churches or pastors left who teach against remarital adultery because pastors are afraid of offending people to keep them from leaving the church, and keep the numbers up. Bob Coy has a second reason he could not teach this: it would be hypocritical given his own marital conundrum.
You don’t need a seminary education or a degree in Greek to understand what the Bible
plainly says about divorce and remarriage while the previous spouse still lives. The Bible says nothing about killing an unborn baby, but most Christians would agree that abortion is wrong.
Additionally, there aren’t many places in the NT dealing with homosexuality, yet we plead with the homosexual to repent of their sinful relationships. But the Bible, and especially the NT, contains copious passages concerning marriage and divorce, yet the church seems so confused on the issue….or they pretend to be?
Bob Coy I respectfully believe you have little to no moral authority to speak against homosexuals who insist on their ‘right’ to ‘marriage’ because your own marriage is suspect. According to the Barna Group, the divorce rate in the church is 4% higher than the world, and the so-called “Bible belt” with the greatest concentration of so-called evangelical churches, has a divorce rate 50% higher than the nation as a whole! With such a situation, how can we ever be capable of winning any culture wars?
Finally, homosexuals make up about 5% of the population but have more of an impact on society than the Church does. Let’s wake up brothers & sisters, Christ is returning for a spotless bride.
Tell us how you really feel Justine
I love your passion.
I am very familiar with the situation described here, but I was not aware Bob C had let things get so out of control to necessitate a thread around the topic of “Remarital Adultery”. I believe Bob’s defense is 2 Cor 5:17 what say you Justine? Also do you know that the first Mrs. Coy is still living? I don’t know the answer. Sorry don’t mean to sound morbid but that would break the marriage bond, and free him up retroactively, right? Would love to hear your comments.
Thanks for responding Max; wasn’t sure I’d get any takers. It’s not easy to look beyond seemingly good surface reputation, externals etc and see sin for what it is. Yes, I was told that the 2 Cor 5:17 passage is/was Bob’s defense. Respectfully, I do not know any thing of the current marital status of the first Mrs. Coy or if she is living. But since Bob uses/used the ‘if any man’ vs. ’til death do us part’ defense, I have to assume she’s here and the marriage bond remains intact; God joins both the saved and the unsaved.
BTW, the so-called ‘if any man’ defense falls flat on its face. That often misapplied passage of scripture you cite which gives rise to the ‘if any man’ exception states:
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
So the question then becomes: Is the ‘if any man exception’ used by Bob Coy to justify ‘remarital adultery’ after he accepted Christ a legitimate one?
Scripturally, no. I do not see anywhere in scripture where God dissolves the one flesh he joined together and then joining two people He says would be committing adultery. Our previous sins are ‘passed away’ but not the repercussions of those sins. A lawful marriage (such as Bob’s first marriage) is not a sin we can repent of. Divorce is a sin and remarriage is a sin. Those sins need repentance and forsaking. Obviously if Bob Coy’s first wife has remarried since he married his second wife, he is not expected to go back to wife #1.
I know of many people who divorced prior to salvation, got saved, remarried a different person after salvation, the Holy Spirit illuminated scripture, convicted them, they obeyed and separated from the second spouse (because that second marriage was never recognized by God nor did He recognize the second spouse as the lawful spouse) and either went back to the first marriage (which was never dissolved by God which spouse is the lawful one) if possible or remained separated from the second unlawful spouse.
To sum it up, scripture says God joins both the unsaved and the saved in marriage. So when an unsaved divorcee gets saved salvation does not dissolve that marriage God joined together and makes it ok to remarry a ‘new’ person and not have it be adultery; “all things are become new” does not mean Bob’s first marriage is dissolved/nullified to give way to a ‘new’ one.
I believe this thread started because of allegations of serial abuse instigated by Bob Coy giving rise to defamation, cyber stalking, online harassment and interference through eBay etc. My prayer is that Bob Coy would actually repent from his sins and take deliberate steps to make restitution where possible. I know from experience that confronting and solving problems is a painful process which most of us try to avoid, and miss out on the heavenly rewards of walking the road less traveled as we deal with issues like responsibility and discipline, and the challenge to change.
I think you did a great job Justine! I know you wear like 10 hats but please let’s do lunch sometime
I wouldn’t worry too much about not getting to many ‘takers’. God’s word never returns void. All we’re required to do is plant the seed of God’s Word someone comes along and waters it and God makes it grow: 1 Cor 3:7:
“So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.”
Yeah, it’s common knowledge the new creature/creation passage cited by Max in #352 is Bob’s proof text for remarital adultery. It is absurd to think that regeneration does away with our pre-salvation family relationships. Our covenant spouse is still our covenant spouse; our children are still our children before/after salvation.
I’m glad you chose to focus on scripture and scripture only i.e., sola scriptura because that is how these topics need to be discussed.
I also agree that we don’t get to look at externals or point to other’s sins to justify ours or to shift the focus or to engage in ad hominen attacks as whos_who and other shills for Bob have attempted to do in resolving conflict. I gotta say this ‘one wife’ stuff is not the sort of NT teaching that resonates with the CC camp.
The Pauline requirement for pastors is not practiced by CCs because it is in direct contradiction to the Moses Model. The adulterous women in the book of John were not seeking the hight office of pastor so it’s illogical to take out of context and compare these women to a man holding/seeking to hold the office of pastor (whos_who @348); my Christian sisters should take offense to this. And like you accurately stated Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to stop living in adultery. Unfortunately, many CC pastors don’t do exegesis but eisegesis (reading their own ideas into scripture).
Justine/CF Lover,
I was wondering if I am understanding you both correctly
Ex: I am married, and my husband divorces me for another woman who he was having a relationship with while we are married. I do not want the divorce. I have been faithful to him while married I am not saved at the time.
If I ever get married again in my life while he is still alive, I will be committing remarital adultery with my new husband? (I am saved after remarriage)
Just wondering, based on the conversation.
Also, I asked some posts back about the “one flesh” pre-salvation.
If the basis for “marriage” is not “I do” but s+xual union, many have had “one flesh “relations prior to their salvation, and prior to their marriage vows. It seems to me you are suggesting that this would qualify for “marriage”.
Also, it has been pointed out to me that the “marriage” vows are not found in the Bible.
PS. This is the position of the Roman Catholic church.
A Priest will not marry a person who has been divorced, since they do not recognize divorce, only annullment. Judaism has it’s own version of annullment after divorce.
That seems to render any children born during the marriage illegitimate.
God does allow for divorce on grounds of adultery, doesn’t He?
Justine/CF Lover
Do you agree with this position?
http://www.cadz.net/remarriage.html
What if the man this woman was married to was an innocent victim of his previous wife’s adultery?. What if his former wife left him for another man, and now he is remarried to the author of this letter..she has the “duty” according to God to leave him, or else she is committing remarital adultery and she will go to hell?
“I believe this thread started because of allegations of serial abuse instigated by Bob Coy giving rise to defamation, cyber stalking, online harassment and interference through eBay etc. My prayer is that Bob Coy would actually repent from his sins and take deliberate steps to make restitution where possible. I know from experience that confronting and solving problems is a painful process which most of us try to avoid, and miss out on the heavenly rewards of walking the road less traveled as we deal with issues like responsibility and discipline, and the challenge to change.”
I am with you most of the way Justine. I guess it should be pretty easy to find out if the first Mrs.Coy is still alive.
Assuming she is and Bob Coy’s divorce was not because of his ex-wife committing adultery, and it wasn’t because she was not a believer and left (abandonment), then Bob Coy sinned pre-salvation and that’s what sinners do, they sin, no surprise there. Then he accepted Christ and asked for forgiveness of all his pre-salvation sins and they’ve been laid at the foot of the cross, buried and gone, never to be remembered anymore.
Now after Bob got saved I DON’T KNOW if he tried to reconcile with his ex-wife which is what he should have done as a ‘new creation’ (regardless of who was at fault) which doesn’t mean she would have agreed to get back with him, but he needed to put forth the effort. The old unregenerate Bob would feel justified moving on to wife #2 without receiving conviction for the sin of divorce and attempting to reconcile, while the new Bob would say I’ve gotta at least try to reconcile with wife #1.
If after Bob got saved he failed to at least try and reconcile with wife #1 before remarrying Diane then I can accept the position that he is living in a continuous state of adultery which should be forsaken. I can also accept that if he desired to be pastor he should not have remarried because he already met the ‘one living wife’ requirement since divorce did not break the marriage bond between him and wife #1. I support the position that a man divorced pre-salvation can become a pastor as long as he does not remarry and has no problems remaining that way. Otherwise he should get remarried and serve in a capacity other than pastor (ie better to marry than to burn). I believe this is why Bob does not like the Pauline requirements for men who would be
pastors. In fact, I believe most CC pastors believe those requirements are not for CC pastors but only for elders, deacons & lay leaders.
I believe that our inability to resolve conflict/reconcile with one another is a personality disorder that carries over from relationship to relationship and that maybe what we’re dealing with here, and what Bob may have yet to take and lay at the foot of the cross. I believe there’s pride and ethnocentricity involved.
“Stopped watching Coy after the Noah’s curse = black servitude sermon. Most inappropriate imho. Read about that on another page. I have wonderful black employees and affluent black friends. Hard to believe he really feels that way”
Mistyped my name in 358: ‘Mas’ shuold be ‘Max’
Here’s a link I found to Bob’s take on black people:
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=651#comment-7238
What is Significant about Adultery in Remarriage?
When Jesus said, “whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” He said something significant…
When Jesus made that statement, He was stating that divorce does not end the first marriage. Some people have assumed that divorce ends the first marriage, but Jesus said that it is not true.
The sin of adultery can only occur if one or both of the persons involved is married. If neither of the persons are married the term adultery cannot be used.
When Jesus said that “whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery”, He was stating that when a man marries a divorced woman he is living with another man’s wife and therefore is guilty of adultery.
God states that the sexual intercourse of a divorced and remarried couple is adultery. Therefore each time they have sexual intercourse they commit an act of adultery. As they continue to have sexual relations and there is no repentance, it becomes a state of adultery. Therefore, adultery in remarriage is both an act each time it occurs, and a continuing state of sinning.
Divorce does not make a man or a woman single again. Divorce does not end a person’s first marriage. That is why a person commits adultery when they marry and live with a divorced person.
Do you get the significance of Jesus’ use of the word adultery? Adultery could not occur in remarriage if divorce ended the first marriage.
Adultery can only occur in remarriage because the divorced spouse is still married to their first marriage partner in Jesus’ judgment.
Jesus is the Judge we will stand before, for our hearing on Judgment Day and it is important that we understand our Judge’s reasoning and logic if we want to enter Heaven.
The significance of the sin of adultery in remarriage is that divorce does not end a person’s first marriage!
God has joined the husband and wife together as one. “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.’”.
Man’s civil action of divorce in the court system of this earth, does not end the “one flesh” aspect of the marriage that God has joined together.
http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
http://www.marriagedivorce.com/
Was it ever confirmed that PBC is divorced?
Well if this site cares so much about the abused, why is so much energy geared toward tearing down CC’s. Shouldn’t it be about recovery, seeking resources, forgiving and moving on? Where’s the encouragement? The poor woman who said PBC wouldn’t call her back…there are so many other pastors counselors and resources at that church that if pbc didn’t address you personally I’m surprised that you would call that abuse. Sure everyone would like personalized attention, but is that possible with a church that large. Were any of you involved in a community group? Surrounded by sisters and brothers that can help through the daily challenges of Christian living?
I wonder if WE would stop putting MEN on pedestals we wouldn’t be so disappointed when we’re “let down” by then. Put CHRIST on the pedestal and you’ll have no worries.
I don’t expect ANY pastor to be perfect. In fact, I expect their burden, temptations and struggles are 100X more than others because they are in a position to lead. Heck, I tried to start a small group and I underwent spiritual warfare, I nearly ran from the faith entirely.
Therefore, for me to solely rely on a person for my spiritual, emotional and mental health is not only foolish, but dangerous. Of course there are going to be human ambitions, flaws, defects. We all have them. What would come out of you with that type of power? How humble would you be. From the looks of this site, it appears you have a dark side as well. Let’s start a blog on all of our darksides. Lets see how well we withstand the light.
I think this site may be equally abusive by preying on the abused of CC’s. You are using these peoples stories/struggles to fulfill some type of vendetta. And if there is any shame on CC’s there is shame on you as well.
It appears to me that whoever started this site has a beef, and those who have had bad experiences at CC’s are being used to throw stones.
We’ve all been hurt people. It’s called LIFE! Use this energy to blog toward the powers that are trying to prevent bible studies in homes, remove God from everything in the media, schools, workplaces. Let’s channel this abuse in to serving others. Stop feeding some guys vendetta.
There is only one person responsible for my spiritual growth: me. I chose it. Either I decide to pick up my bible, study it, do my best to share it and encourage others, or I can sit back and let someone else do it. I’ve been guilty of the latter more times that I want to admit.
SO if the leaders of CC’s are guilty, let them take it up with God on judgement. It’s HARD ENOUGH being a Christian in this world, stop trying to tear down people who are at the very least at the pulpit trying to teach the best they can. Soon, if the enemy has his way, there will be no places for worship anymore.
in love-
kmichelle
Hannah at 357 said:
“What if the man this woman was married to was an innocent victim of his previous wife’s adultery?. What if his former wife left him for another man, and now he is remarried to the author of this letter..she has the “duty” according to God to leave him, or else she is committing remarital adultery and she will go to hell?”
Hannah it seems like God’s Word is saying a divorced Christian should remain that way and not seek to remarry because to do so is adultery. I know it sounds harsh, right?
1 CORINTHIANS 7:27 (Paul)
27 Are you bound to a wife? do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? do not seek a wife.
LUKE 16:18 (Jesus)
18 Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her who is put away from her husband commits adultery.
Does that mean that Bob Grenier is an adulterer along with Gail Grenier…both of them? Yikes.
(John 14:15) “If you love me, keep my commandments.”
(John 14:21-24) “He who has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves me: … If a man loves me, he will keep my words: … He who does not love me does not keep my sayings:”
(2 John 6) “And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.”
Hannah, all I can say Jesus’ teaching on divorce and remarriage is tough but he’s not going to change his mind. I don’t get it all the time.
have one in moderation alex
Michelle @360:
“Was it ever confirmed that PBC is divorced?”
Are you saying Bob Coy is not divorced or are you trying to make the reader believe he is not when in fact he is divorced?
Are you Billy’s wife as in Michelle Venezia, Bob’s niece, daughter of Jim Coy, pastor of CC Wellington, FL? Is it true pastor Jim is a post-salvation adulterer Michelle? Michelle, could it be that so many problems exists at CCs because there are so many adulterous/illegitimate senior pastors?
Michelle:
“It appears to me that whoever started this site has a beef, and those who have had bad experiences at CC’s are being used to throw stones.”
We have 5 stones and we haven’t thrown one yet. Now aren’t we sweet?
Michelle:
“The poor woman who said PBC wouldn’t call her back…there are so many other pastors counselors and resources at that church that if pbc didn’t address you personally I’m surprised that you would call that abuse. Sure everyone would like personalized attention, but is that possible with a church that large. Were any of you involved in a community group? Surrounded by sisters and brothers that can help through the daily challenges of Christian living?”
Michelle, the ‘poor woman’ you are referring to is ‘Donna’ in 148 who said:
“I was locked away for the weekend. My Mother died one week later. It was the worst nightmare of my life. I called pastor bob, he never returned a call. I have been injured and broken. The bitterness that a manipulative sibling could bring to get rid of me, for her own greed and the fact that my friends wanted to know what my pastor had to say, I’m embarrased to say, he said nothing. I have looked for other churches in the area”
I don’t know Donna but it sounds like she was not necessarily expecting pastor Bob to call her back himself. Sounds like NO ONE called her back and she would have been happy if ANY ONE (not specifically Bob) would have called her back. Bob could have instructed any female staff or volunteer to call her back. If he never did, that’s something to write about. If Donna was a wealthy heiress calling Bob to donate a $million, I assure you he would have called her back and then some. God is no respecter of persons and neither should we.
I have no idea how I got to this site, because I thoroughly enjoy listening to Bob (. But it serves to remind me that we have to keep our eyes on the Lord because “man” will disappoint us every time! It also serves to remind me that the devil likes nothing more than to destroy the testimony of Christians in order to discredit God.
“Was it ever confirmed that PBC is divorced?”
Yes Bob is divorced and remarried. And if you attend CCFTL and don’t know that you’re not alone.
Many unsuspecting attendees at CCFTL don’t know this making them easy pickings. But it is not public knowledge that determines a pastor’s blamelessness and therefore eligibility; it is God knowledge. Bob is what he is, and if he continues his pulpit ministry without working out difficult issues he retains those issues. Bob’s own un-repentance (from remarital adultery) encourages others to remain in their own un-repentance.
“I have no idea how I got to this site, because I thoroughly enjoy listening to Bob ”
It is very difficult for me and others wanting to serve God to listen to the words of an un-repentant adulterous pastor knowing that our spiritual well beings will be like our pastor’s. That’s because the morals and doctrines of the pastor become those of the people he leads. Jeremiah 23:14-16
Some of the scriptures on divorce and remarriage can be among the most difficult to digest and accept. I think the problem comes when we try to redefine what adultery is. I would recommend that we read the gospels on the subject. If we do that we will find a lot of harmony against divorce… for any reason. Like Matthew 5:31-32 which says whoever divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery and whoever marries her commits adultery himself. Wow! And if you replace “his wife” with “her husband” and “her” with “him” which I’m told is ok because the passage is meant to be gender-neutral, it would seem to suggest that Diane Coy is an adulteress. I don’t think this would be a big deal because we know our Blessed Lord & Savior is merciful and quick to forgive. I think it is a big deal because we’re dealing with the pastor and his wife of the largest CC in the world who could be next in line to head up the movement which would make them the FIRST FAMILY.
You’re right Jesus never allowed divorce for any reason. The reason it is found in Matthew is he was writing to the Jews, Mark & Luke to the Gentiles/us; no exeption clause. Hence, the exception clause in Matthew is not an exception for divorce but for ending the betrothal period (serious matter for the Jews; unfaithfulness during betrothal was equivalent to adultery punishable by stoning to death) which Joseph would have been justified in doing until the Angel intervened.
Jesus (Mark):
““Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her”
” and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery”
Jesus (Luke):
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery”
A picture of Jesus’ mercy toward us is exemplified by the spouse who has been wronged choosing to stay with the unfaithful spouse.
“Stopped watching Coy after the Noah’s curse = black servitude sermon. Most inappropriate imho. Read about that on another page. I have wonderful black employees and affluent black friends. Hard to believe he really feels that way”
So basically scripture says a man who is not married to his first wife but remarried to a second woman, is disqualified from being pastor as is Bob Coy. And Bob is teaching that the curse of Ham’s son (Canaan) by Noah is visited upon African Americans today even though God did not curse Ham or African Americans according to scripture, and we don’t believe that ‘curse is applicable today. That makes Bob triply disqualified in that he is neither ‘blameless’, nor ‘the husband of one wife’ nor is he ‘able to teach’. Bob has also ‘taught’ from the pulpit that single women looking to get married should use the requirements in Paul’s pastoral epistles (1+2Timothy & Titus) to qualify/disqualify their future husbands….but so much a man who would serve in the position of pastor.
My sense is that being the husband of one wife goes hand in hand with being able to teach like two sides to the same coin, like bread and butter, like spaghetti and meatballs…they’re inextricably linked like the double helix of DNA.
Further, we believe Bob has “…little to no moral authority to speak against homosexuals who insist on their ‘right’ to ‘marriage’ because his ‘own marriage is suspect’. But he could use such surrogates like Chick-Fil-A’s Dan Cathy to weigh in on these critical issues:
http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=38301
“We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit,” “We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives.
‘…married to our first wives.” Hmmmmm, wonder where that came from?
yea i rememer bob saying how he couldn’t do a senior pastor position in a different type church outside the cc network due to his ‘first wife situation’
i guess it’s the do as i say not as i do mentality that is ever prevalent in the cc system
i even remember the long ministry questionnaire i was required to fill out and it covered the timothy/titus qualifications that i as a non-pastor had to address to be able to serve, that’s pretty messed up if you ask me
i also agree that a pastor even assistant pastors must not have divorced and remarried as a qualification, there are so many other jobs at ccft that bob could fill and probably be really good at them: israel trip, the cove thing, cruises outings, the big stadium events etc
and rather than calling him pastor bob we just let him be dr. bob coy since he did receive an honorary doctorate from the local pca college
“Stopped watching Coy after the Noah’s curse = black servitude sermon. Most inappropriate imho. Read about that on another page. I have wonderful black employees and affluent black friends. Hard to believe he really feels that way”
We knew a family that left a CC in California over this teaching. Where did they get this crazy teaching? It sounds like something that would come from a white supremacist group or that guy that preaches on TV with a gun in his desk.
Alex said ,” It was after much prayer that I started this site” Alex, just who are you praying to?
You also said ,”I was told that much that happened at the last CCSPC 2012 was “in spite of” this blog, etc and that much more is coming…to which I replied “good, I don’t care, as long as it happens”…but I am intelligent enough to know that w/o all the noise, not much would’ve gotten done. ” Wow!, you give yourself a lot of credit. You are just a gnat to them., nothing more. You haven’t helped anything but you have helped devil. You use your anger against CC under the guise that you care about the kids of CC getting molested. I see you as a bitter man/child trying to hurt and divide the body of Christ at any cost. It’s too bad because you were created to be so much more. This site has not brought healing or comfort. I cringe when you quote Scripture or talk about God. It is so hypocritical I am scared for you on judgement day.
I was hurt at a CC and came across this blog. I had hoped to find others who were hurting to talk and pray with. I had hoped to find people here that would encourage me and share how the Lord had helped them. I had hoped to find godly people and hoped we could help each other through a shared trial. What I found here was pure ugliness. Another poster said it well: “Well if this site cares so much about the abused, why is so much energy geared toward tearing down CC’s. Shouldn’t it be about recovery, seeking resources, forgiving and moving on? Where’s the encouragement?” Well, it certainly isn’t here.
If any of you are truly believers who have been hurt, I hope you will not stay on this site. It won’t build you up, it will only tear you down.
Julie,
You are welcome to join me on the prayer thread on this blog.
If you go to it, you will see that there have not been many there.
I beg to disagree that this blog has not provided healing.
It would take hours to read, but go through this blog, and you will find many who have been able to work out their hurt with others here.
Hannah @357: “…it has been pointed out to me that the “marriage” vows are not found in the Bible.”
“what God has joined together let not man put asunder” (Mark)
“So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Matthew)
Hannah @359: “What if the man this woman was married to was an innocent victim of his previous wife’s adultery?. What if his former wife left him for another man, and now he is remarried to the author of this letter..she has the “duty” according to God to leave him, or else she is committing remarital adultery and she will go to hell?”
Innocent? Hmmm….dunno. Some argue there’s no such a thing as an innocent victim of a spouse’s adultery; Bible says we reap what we sow. I thought I was innocent of a lota stuff then come to find out after the fact, I was not. Maybe when others are unfaithful to us it’s because we’re unfaithful to God?
I don’t believe the letter writer was married before so her adultery was not the remarital variety. You have to be divorced to commit remarital adultery. But, yes she committed adultery according to Jesus. The scripture in Luke applies to her:
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery”
So the author of letter married a man divorced from his wife, and the Holy Spirit convicted her that she had committed adultery and needed to repent and leave him. She said “…the Holy Spirit convicted me of being in a state of adultery. I felt as if I had been struck by lightning…” I’m not second guessing anyone whose had that kind of lightning bolt experience. Maybe those who get convicted that way will suffer harsh judgment if they fail to take heed.
The Luke scripture above makes anyone who marries a divorcee an adulterer/adulteress. So a divorced man becomes an adulterer when he marries a woman and she becomes an adulteress even if she was never married before. By the same token a divorced woman becomes an adulteress when she marries a man and he becomes an adulterer even if he was never married before. These are the words of Jesus not mine; God’s position not mine.
Paul @361: “Divorce does not make a man or a woman single again. Divorce does not end a person’s first marriage. That is why a person commits adultery when they marry and live with a divorced person.”
I totally agree. And the apostle Paul summarized the teachings of Jesus on the subject when he said “Are you bound to a wife? do not seek to be loosed [i.e., divorced]. Are you loosed [i.e., divorced] from a wife, do not seek a wife.” In other words divorcees in the church should not remarry….especially if they are going to be pastors.
You’re wasting your time guys. They want you to keep blogging til your blue in the face. Shut down the blogs and try something else like the Occupy Movement. Most all the CC mega church pastors are unqualified by biblical standards. I didn’t know this one was divorced and carrying on like this. Just goes to show you can never judge a book by its cover. Like my neighbor with 2 perfect kids with straight A’s boy and a girl just like Coy. Girl has a pink room and boy has a blue room and they seem like the perfect family from the outside but the dad who is an elder in his church leads a double life the details of which would simply blow your mind.
Leave your soul at the door before you enter this web-of-sightless people. Yikes! Let us look at the PLANK in our eye, before we try to remove the fleck of dust in our brother Coy’s eye.
Be kind one to another!!!! Love is all you need.
Actually what scriptures states (Matthew 5:32) :
“But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason, “except” sexual immorality “cause her to commit adultery”; “and” whoever marries a woman who “is” divorced commits adultery.
This one scripture has been given so many interpretations. But if you look at the sentence structure, you see that Jesus is saying that if a man (woman) divorces his wife for biblical reason, that being adultery, then that woman (man) who committed adultery is not free to remarry again. Also, anyone that marries an adulteress (becoming one with an adulteress) becomes an adulterer, as well.
But the innocent spouse, being the person who divorced their spouse due to biblical grounds of adultery, they are free to marry again.
If a spouse divorces his wife without biblical grounds, in essence he or she is throwing them under the bus without biblical grounds. Thus this person who divorced the innocent spouse is responsible for causing them to commit adultery should they remarry. In essence, the person who obtained an unbiblical divorce abandoned the marriage without biblical grounds. Although God still sees this as a marriage, but because of the abandonment it “caused” or puts the the innocent spouse at risk because they are not longer receiving the benefits of what is to be gain in a marital relationship.
There are other scriptures pertaining to divorce as well. For instance: Mark 10:11 tells us that if one divorce his wife or husband to marry another, they commit adultery. Which to me, means that you cannot just walk out on your marriage unless your spouse commits adultery. And the only one permitted to gain a divorce and then be able to remarry is the one who did not commit the adultery. They then are free to marry.
If this is true then if the adulterer obtain a divorce against the innocent spouse because he wanted to marry someone else, then the innocent spouse is free, even though she did not initiate the divorce. To obtain a divorce in many states, you do not need to have both spouses involved, nor do you need to prove adultery. Now, this is not biblical, but it is what a person can do by man’s law, unfortunately.
And if she or he being the innocent spouse, he or she is free, meaning the innocent spouse is no longer bounded to the adulteress spouse (because they have failed to repent by continuing to commit adultery), and she or he is then free to marry again without sinning.
The key word is “except.”
When cross referencing all the scripture on marriage, you will see that the innocent spouse is free to marry, but it is God’s permissive will to do this, not His perfect will, as God hates divorce.
So, marrying someone that has been divorced does not make you an adultress or adulterer if the innocent spouse was put away without cause and the other spouse did it in order to commit adultery. In this case, what did it matter who obtained the divorce? Because, many people will bully the innocent spouse into getting a divorce while pretending they have not committed adultery, yet even if they have not slept with the person other than their spouse, in every other sense they have engaged themselves as if they were married to them. Alot of times, they will pass it off as: “Just being friends.” All the while setting the innocent spouse up by abusing them and gaslighting them to then deny what the innocent spouse knows to be true.
Anyway, getting back to the main topic:
“But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason, “except” sexual immorality “cause her to commit adultery”; “and” whoever marries a woman who “is” divorced commits adultery.
This statementa:
1) If you divorce with sexual immorality being committed, then you cause this person to commit adultery. You have abandoned them and deprived them of marital privileges and have violated the covenant you made with the Lord. To have and to hold until death.
A. In God’s eyes you are still married. Neither are free to remarry.
B. If someone marries either person, the marriage is not blessed by God.
C. Whoever marries another other than their original partner is committing
adultery and if a new person marries them, they commit adultery as well.
D. The marriage is not blessed or recognized by God,
E. It is a form of polygamny and is not permitted by the Lord
2) If you divorce your spouse due to sexual immorality. The innocent spouse may remarry without being an adulterer or in an adulteress marriage. Remember, the “exception clause.” You are free because the marital vows have been violated due to the adulteress relationship that had been formed with another. Doesn’t matter who obtained the divorce. What matters is for what readon. The innocent spouse is not penalized for this violation. He or she is free to remarry if they choose to do so. Not so, for the spouse who cheated for they committed violence against the holy ordincance of God and their spouse. And no matter what, whoever they are with they will be an adulterer or adultress.
This is why God hates divorce so much that he put stict paramenters around the marriage and forbids the partners to practice such things. This is why Jesus said, that when you lust in your heart after another it is the same as committing adultery against your spouse. That why scripture tells us to not even go there and then tells us that it is in our hearts that we sin through the lust of our eyes because we want to consume things upon our own self-serving desires. Then we call it love because it gives us pleasure. LOL
And this is why scripture to get all our satisfaction from our spouses treating them with the utmost respect, dignity, and consideration. Not to lord over, but to love and submit one unto the other, as that is what Jesus showed us how to do towards one another.
correction: “If you divorce with sexual immorality being committed.”
Should read: If you divorce “without sexual immorality being committed.
correction: “If you divorce with sexual immorality being committed.”
Should read: If you divorce “without” sexual immorality being committed.
LOL ignore #381 abd #382—sorry.
Max #371 ” Hence, the exception clause in Matthew is not an exception for divorce but for ending the betrothal period (serious matter for the Jews; unfaithfulness during betrothal was equivalent to adultery punishable by stoning to death) which Joseph would have been justified in doing until the Angel intervened.”
I did a huge study on this because a pastor had told me the same thing. What I found, using my own Jewish heritage was this. The betrothal period that you speak is not the same as we used “engagement” today.
The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin
The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nisuin (full-fledged marriage). Kiddushin occurs when the woman accepts the money, contract or sexual relations offered by the prospective husband. The word “kiddushin” comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning “sanctified.” It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other.
Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as we understand the term in modern English; in fact, Rambam speaks of a period of engagement before the kiddushin. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce. However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete.
The nisuin (from a word meaning “elevation”) completes the process of marriage. The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.
In the past, the kiddushin and nisuin would routinely occur as much as a year apart. During that time, the husband would prepare a home for the new family. There was always a risk that during this long period of separation, the woman would discover that she wanted to marry another man, or the man would disappear, leaving the woman in the awkward state of being married but without a husband. Today, the two ceremonies are normally performed together.
Because marriage under Jewish law is essentially a private contractual agreement between a man and a woman, it does not require the presence of a rabbi or any other religious official. It is common, however, for rabbis to officiate, partly in imitation of the Christian practice and partly because the presence of a religious or civil official is required under United States civil law.
http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm
So, you are incorrect when you say that Jesus was only speaking in terms of the Jews betrothal as being applicable to the subject of divorce and remarriage. What more, Jesus was being questioned about what Moses allowed, and Jesus put that to rest immediately by going back to Genesis and making it clear that God hates divorce.
But in the case of adultery the innocent spouse is free to remarry, but the adulterer is not.
And for those who divorces their spouse who are in the Lord, without Biblical grounds, then they are not only bearing a false witness against their spouse, because they are claiming they have cause, they also are responsible for the adultery that is committed, if their spouse that they put away, marries again. Otherwise, God will hold it to their account for doing this treachery against an innocent spouse.
So when CC say that is alright to divorce due to hard heartedness, they are totally out of line for doing so. That is not what Jesus, at all. Jesus said that is what permit because a man would find some reason to ditch his wife because he found something in her that displease him. And Jesus called it being hard heartedness, but He made it clear by saying, ” but, I say to you that except for the cause of adultery, if a man does this, then . . . . .
CC being the Moses model permits loopholes that are not scriptural for divorce and remarriage: http://www.calvarychapelaiken.org/divorce.htm
In the New Testament, divorce is permitted (not required) for believers on the following grounds: Fornication ( Matthew 5:32, 19:9 )
Desertion by a non Christian (I Cor. 7:l5)
Hardness of heart (Mark 10:4-5)
Read the entire passage:
Mark 10:4
Mark 10:5
Mark 10:6
Mark 10:7
Mark 10:8
Mark 10:9
Mark 10:10
Mark 10:11
Mark 10:12
CC stops short of the whole passage, therefore, cuts off what Jesus was teaching. How many times have we’ve been taught to read what is before and what is after, by CC, yet we see that CC provides a loophole that is not even biblical.
CC leadership needs to correct this, for to do otherwise, they will be held to an account for enabling and giving consent for divorces based on the hard heartedness of a person’s heart. What more to permit an adulterer to assume or resume the role of a pastor or any other type of leadership is utterly without scriptural basis. No wonder there is so much sexual immorality, divorces, spousal and child abuse going on. How can there be with this type of interpretation and discernment being applied?
For those who take issue with what I have shared, please don’t count me as an enemy because I have spoken the truth. I love CC, but I am ashamed of what the leadership has become and the harm that has been done as a result of claiming the Moses Model as justification to wrongly interpret scriptures in so many areas that directly affects the body of Christ, individually and corporately, in order to avoid coming down from the mountain they think they are privy to be on. News flash, there is only one Moses, and God said, there would not one after him—-not eve CS.
Jesus gave us a new way and never told us to continue in the way of Moses. As a matter of fact, didn’t He say not to put new wineskin into the old?
Oh by the way in the case of abuse and the abuser refuses to repent and bear the fruit of that repentance, then he has abandoned the faith, as well as his wife and children. he should be considered an unbeliever. And the biblical grounds would then fall under abandonment. He has left his marital vows and betrayed his wife, his children, and the church.
Purchase Lundy Bancroft’s book, “Why does he do that?” to undestand exactly what is abuse and how this fit into this. It is impossilbe to be an abuser and be in the Lord too. Read 1 John 2 .
And for good measure, in case there is doubt: 1 John 3
Pastor Bob is the real deal. He is spot on with his Biblical teaching and I have learned sooooo much from him! I have probably heard 500-700 sermons over the last 9 years and there has not been a single thing that he has ever said that I disagreed with. His teaching is the most Biblically accurate I have ever heard. I am so thankful for his ministry!!!
The questions is:
Does it matter if a pastor lives what he preachers?
“preachers” = preaches
Bob, must be superman if over a nine year period he has said nothing you disagree with.
jlo- Good point
PS Jlo
just wanted you to know that I view the other blog from time to time and everytime you post here, although brief (and to the point), my heart is warmed because I had some interaction with you there, and I know that you are the real deal. Also know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.
Kathie,
It’s kind of important that your walk lines up with what you teach. Is that true about Bob? Just wondering.
Kathy are you talking about Bob Grenier or Bob Coy?
Hannah, thank you. prayers are always appreciated. I also think you are the real deal, and find great value in your posts.
#397 What exactly are you saying? Who are they and how would you know? Nothing would surprise me but this is really something if it’s true.
#397 has been moderated.
Overly concerned,
I think your comment is necessary.
Overly Concerned, thanks for responding… it was such a crazy statement which made me wonder.
I cannot believe some of the comments on this site! The bottom line is: Pastor Bob is annointed by God and preaches His word. He and Diane (along with the Gomez’s) came to Ft. Lauderdale on faith, believing they were led to start a church; that’s what they did and look where they are now. Do you not listen to his messages? You will find odd people at all churches, afterall we are all sinners and who defines the meaning of odd anyway? Keep your nose out of other peoples business and let God be their judge. Pastor Bob delivers messages that help thousands of people and I’m one of them. Shame on you people! If you don’t like the church or the pastor, quietly be on you way and keep your opinions to yourself.
Blessed 2 Bless,
I would love to reply to all who have left comments but unfortunately after only reading a few, yours was the last I wanted to see and so I have chosen to respond to you. Firstly let me say that I have been going to CCFL since April 2012, my husband and I were made known of Calvary and of Pastor Bob from a couple we know, they thought we would enjoy his sermons and teaching. We do, as do many others who attend, but it doesn’t stop there, there are many assistant Pastors who are liked as well, may I ask why is it wrong for people to have a preference on who they listen to preaching and teaching Gods word? Also, in defense to what you have stated about Pastor Bob… he is aware that many people do enjoy his services and he has made it a point more then a few times that people should NOT come ONLY to see/hear him, but to come for Gods word, he has also made a point to let others know that he is aware there are those who come and bring friends for the first time and these friends may be expecting to see/hear him on a day or evening he is not doing the teaching and these people might be disappointed, he makes it a point to let all know how he completely disagrees with this, and that whoever comes to gather and worship, listen to Gods word being taught should be doing so for that reason and basis alone, not to “see” or “hear” him or anyone specifically. So if this woman who did not speak English chooses to make him or anyone else her “idol” as you described, please put the blame where it is deserved, because Pastor Bob does not feel glorified from it at all which you have made it seem like in your post. Now, on the baby blessings issue, which is called a “baby dedication”, the reason the staff and family members are able to do this in the main room with their children is because right after it is over, (and it is not a lengthy time) they take the children out of the room. Even when there is no baby dedication, all children and babies are to be brought to a different area with other children and a parent if you wish of course, to watch the service on a monitor…Pastor Bob has explained many times why this is, he feels that it is best this way for all involved to better be focused on Gods word for the length of time the service is for. Young children and babies can and will take the parents attention away from what is to be their worship time, so instead, they are separated so that the adults and other adults can focus on what they came for, and then they will be better suited to relay the teaching to their small children at home. Pastor Bob explains this completely so that no one is offended, he loves children, has them of his own, but as a Pastor who is trying to get a message across to adults who go there hungry for Gods word, small children who are not old enough yet to even understand do not belong in a room with adults who are trying to worship and be taught a sermon. He actually does this for the BENEFIT of the parents as well as the other adults, and the children are in a safe environment with other children, as well as adults to watch and take care of them, and like I said the parent can also be there with their child if they wish. So, as I said, the staff is allowed because they come on a day for baby dedication, as soon as it is over they walk off and go back to work because they are on the STAFF. Their children, babies do not remain in the room, but if all of us were allowed to bring our babies to the main room to have this done it would be chaos, why? because we as parents would not be leaving soon after like the staff, no we would continue to remain for the service…so you might say well then the parents can just go to the other room after with the babies…WRONG… right after the baby dedication there is no pause time, the Pastor continues straight into Gods word and begins to preach and teach not wanting to take away one minute from Gods word. It would be a mess with parents walking out walking in, gong to this room that room, I am sure you get the picture. Please before making any assumptions on people and ways, learn all you can first. Lastly, Pastor Bob has made mention a few times as well that different Pastors have different ways of teaching, personalities and such and what may work for some may not work for others and that is ok too, that people should go and listen where they are comfortable, as long as they are getting Gods word in a Bible teaching church. I think many people relate to him because of his nature to be down to earth, a bit funny at times, as well as being quite serious at other times. He is a likable person. I am not sure if you said this or someone else did but I read on here that he has said ccftl is not a cult and there is no membership, well it is not a cult and of course there is no membership, someone on here said that if it wasn’t a cult it would not have to be defended as not being one, that is such a wrong statement. He will let people know there is no membership and things of that nature I believe mainly because there are new people who come all the time, some of these people have been to places that were all about money and or cultish, and he tries to make people feel comfortable to let them know there is a difference, and while there are some places such as these, ccftl is not one of them. I see nothing wrong with this, why do you??? You all here are passing judgement when as Christians we are not to pass any judgement. Of course you can have opinions, but please make sure there is truth to back up your opinions, ccftl is large by Gods blessing. Pastor Bob also never takes credit for anything, he gives all credit to our Lord. It is so heart breaking to read such harsh comments when I know how untrue they are, Pastor Bob has a calling as do the assistant Pastors to bring people to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, because he does it well, and is likable you are condemning him. If you do not like a place of worship there are many other places you can go, that is fine, but why try and drag people and places through the mud on your personal opinions? I feel it is people like you who give Christians a bad name, and scare of any new believers with your judgement, accusations and opinions. Being a Christian is about love and fellowship, and being a good disciple of our Lord, please remember this the next time you chose to use your voice as a weapon.
To: Amanda @ 402
“I feel it is people like you who give Christians a bad name, and scare of any new believers with your judgement, accusations and opinions. Being a Christian is about love and fellowship, and being a good disciple of our Lord, please remember this the next time you chose to use your voice as a weapon.”
I believe you mentioneded that you just began going to CC this last spring, as a result it being recommended to you by a friend (?). So, you are new to CC and your knowledge regarding CC corporate structure may not be all the important to you at this time. The feedback you gave concerning Blessed 2 Bless was based on a very short history of your involvement with CC. What more your interaction with the leadership appears to be at a distance. Nevertheless that is your experience and for now it has been positive for you.
At the same time, Blessed 2 Bless, shared their experience as well. Yet you took issue with this because your experience did not match with their experience. Now I don’t know how long you have been in the Lord, but I do know that being a Christian has much more that just love and fellowship. We can all stand around and hear God’s Word while listening and particpating in the music portion of worshipping the Lord together. But being a Christian goes far beyond this.
I doubt you will be back to read this, but if you should return to see if anyone responded, this is what I have to say to you, dear one. It would have been better for you to have spent a good amount of time going through the different topics that have been posted by those who have attended CC long before you probably ever heard of CC. Like myself, for about 34 years. By doing this you would have gain a better understanding why membership is not included the type of church government established by those who are affiliated under the name of CC. You would also understand why it is imporant to know scripture and to follow it rather than to speak out of turn not knowing it and accusing Blessed 2 Bless as using their voice as a weapon.
For isn’t that just what you did to them, because you didn’t like hearing anything negaive about a church you hardly know anything about? Again, as a sister in the Lord, and probably a senior to you, I would say—listen to the whole matter —- that is find out why this blog is here and what the concerns are about. Do your own biblical research on the Mose’s Model vs, New Testament church structuring and leadership roles. Be as a Berean and search out the truth beyond sitting in the pew listening to a Pastor or 2.
And before respond in the manner that you did, which is your choice to do, but given the time and effort you took in writing all that you did, what you shared was what you have only observed on the surface regarding those things that CC wants you to see, not necessarily what you need to know. Here, at this blog, there is plenty of information that will help you to understand more and to make a more informed decision. And hopefully be far less defensive in hearing those things that may not ring true for you but are true, nevertheless, regarding CC and its leadership. God has told that as Christians we are not to take part in evil, but to expose them. It is not easy to do, but it is what His Word instructs His church to do —-
My one question you is this. In spending time here on this blog, why is it you wanted to focus on BoB Coy’s staff being allowed to have their children dedicated, when there are far more critical issues being presented on this site. Is it because of you lack of knowledge concerning CC overall? But that one situation you could address? And was it so ceitical that it warranted telling Blessed 2 Bless that she was using her voice as a weapon? You have much to learn if this is so. And if this one small obsevation made by another of her own experience at the CC you both attended upset your applecart to prompt you to write as you did, I can only speculate how you will handle it when you find out the truth of what we all know to be true and have stated so on this sight.
Shalom, in Jesus
Pastor Bob is the best he shares god’s word with love in his heart and does great things for the community I don’t understand why people have to hate on him just let him be. God bless
Nick,
What type of “great” things does he do for the community. Also, in what way has he helped you and others in your church beside “teaching” God’s Word. I don’t understand why you call people haters when sharing their experience and knowledge concerning this pastor’s behavior. How is bearing a witness to these concerns being hateful, if it is the truth? Would you as a Christian do better to find out if these things are true, then search the scripture to find out what God has to say about a person who passes himself as a pastor. Also, find out what your part is in exposing these things to protect your brothers and sisters in the Lord. Isn’t it also your responsiblity to help the body of believers where you congregate to hold those responsible and accountable for the leaven that is in your church, or is that not a concern of yours. Or is it just about the personality that most impacts your opinion and then determines the truth of things. If these things be true, then who is really missing the mark here, Nick?
Hello Church, I don’t know about the scandals you’re referring too. I don’t know about the harm Bob has caused any of you. I tried to read through every comment but I couldn’t find any that openly discussed them. I won’t issue any decree about how one should approach criticizing or rebuking their leaders that they find error in but I feel many of you are using an illogical ploy in claiming that followers of Bob are representative of the whole of Calvary who do follow God. The Church, I have been taught by Bob, consists of those who love Jesus and those who love Jesus obey His commandments. I’m not sure that a woman who is enamored with Bob’s voice doesn’t love Jesus nor am I sure that a man who attends the church vigorously without serving doesn’t either. You’re judging these men and woman without looking at their fruit but instead by chance-one-time interactions. True worship is doesn’t in sanctuaries but in everyday life. In the way you walk with Jesus and declare His love to the gentile world. I learned about love while at Calvary Chapel. I was saved during an altar call. I know altar calls may not be effective but scripture demands we take any opportunity to publicly delcare that Jesus is Lord to match the conviction the Holy Spirit stirs in our hearts when we accept Christ as risen from the grave. I was convinced by Pastor Bob, His staff, Ken Ham and Lee Strobel in the validity of Christ’s resurrection. In my humble opinion, I say humble because all you seem “schooled” for years in the word of God and I have been saved for 5 years, that age doesn’t add any credibility to your arguments. Preachers must be rebuked but if Bob wasn’t convicted about whatever scandal you continue to propagate then I see the wrong as belonging to you. I live in Ftl. and I never heard news of Bob’s indiscretion and I go to the church and never heard anything about it. To me it seems many of you are sin sniffing. I have no allegiance to Bob or Calvary besides that it was where the Word of God actively came unto me and where I can always find forgiveness preached plus the resources necessary to equip my friends and the world with the answers needed to defend the faith. I have gone to numerous churches. CBG. 2 Baptist churches. I disagree with much of their approaches to ministry but most importantly whenever I hear them declare Christ is Lord and the preaching of His word is most important I accept and cherish my time their. This is just a witness of someone from Calvary. I have been going for years but never though to see what trash people spew about Bob and the ministry until now. I guarantee you that many others from Calvary are too busy faithfully serving God and their communities with love to care about what you are saying about a minority of people you met. Leaders are not always going exemplify leadership. My grandmother once led a calvary children’s ministry and when the church found out that she was living with my grandfather unmarried they asked her to step down from her position. She now faithfully serves as a deaconess after repenting and moving away from my grandfather. I don’t know about accusations about Pastor Billy Graham and I will look into it but nothing I find will shake my testimony that my time at Calvary has been nothing short of beneficial. Worship is great, the study is great and I am not deceived but constantly being redirected to the Cross of Christ for grace and righteousness I will need for Jesus’ coming. This coming is the hope Bob has instilled in me and is the fruit that any Pastor should be judged by. For those asking if Bob is even saved, isn’t here scripture that says if any man claims Jesus is Lord, that He hasn’t said that by any spirit except the Holy spirit? Judge a tree by it’s fruit. Weigh my words. See if my fruit, my words, my love of Jesus, is bad fruit but if it be good, is the Calvary tree really corrupt or bad? Or do you contend with Christ’s teachings of good and bad trees and their fruit?
Re: Eric @ 406 said,
“I don’t know about the scandals you’re referring too. I don’t know about the harm Bob has caused any of you. I tried to read through every comment but I couldn’t find any that openly discussed them.”
Read Alex’s (and his brother’s stories first. Then read what happened to Tina. Check out what Wide Awake can attest to. The list goes on …There are many first hand stories from people who were under Bob’s leadership for a long time. They know. The bookkeepers know. The former assistant pastors know. The people who received ungodly counsel from Bob know. The people who were spiritually abused by Bob KNOW … first hand.
Many of us from differing parts of the country have noticed in Alex’s story, and the stories of those who fled Bob Grenier’s church, that they (me included) experienced many of the same types of abuses.
What caught my attention from the very beginning was when a former CCite posted a list of things that would typically happen to a person who approached CC leadership when then ran into a leader in biblical sin, verifiable, usually habitual and known. The post described 17 responses (or attacks) that would follow from the CC leadership. I was shocked as I read the list. 11 out of the 17 happened to me … and in the order in which they were written. I knew this could not be a coincidence. Since then I’ve discovered many who’ve experienced the same from Bob’s church on the West Coast to the East Coast. That has to be in the DNA of Calvary Chapels.
This is not illogical, fabricated, or blown out of proportion. These are facts and dangerous ones. May all who read here be warned.
Oops, sorry Eric, I read too fast and thought Bob was Bob Grenier. But it doesn’t matter, because I’ve heard the same about Bob Coy from former staff member.
I’m glad you came to Jesus Christ.
I’m glad you have benefited from the Bible teaching.
But keep your eyes on Jesus and not on Bob.
Bob Coy was trained by a group that has systemic issues.
Bob has no accountability.
No one sees the books in Bob Coy’s church.
No one can correct Bob Coy.
Bob has control in his church and therefore you will not hear of the issues that are swept under the rug. People are shown the door and you are deemed a trouble maker if you inquire as to why. This is why you don’t hear of anything wrong.
1 Timothy 5 Call out leaders in unrepentant sin.
In Alex’s initial statement on the About Alex & CCA.com page, Alex closed with the following words: “I believe this site will help in bringing accountability and a form of justice for victims of abuse…that helps CC and the broader Church. Accountability helps people not to sin, when tempted. I know from personal experience in dealing with my own sin. Often, when we think we can “get away with it” when tempted…it is easier to sin.”
Eric perhaps your comment was meant as some sort of satire to support the statement above, because your grandmother’s story supports it completely! Many people on this thread and other threads have affirmed that CC nationwide is the type of organization in which people feel comfortable living an ungodly lifestyle because they are deceived about what it really means to be a Christian because of the type of teaching and the lack of accountability within the CC system. Perhaps you see by now that the fact that your grandmother was able to lead “a calvary children’s ministry” while “living with” your “grandfather unmarried”, is evidence of a lack of any true accountability being necessary for those who are involved in ministry and in this case even in a children’s ministry with access to innocent and impressionable lives.
Eric if you are not attempting satire and are truly supporting the CC system then please realize that according to what you said, your grandmother only repented when she got caught and that one of the issues highlighted on this site is that the same is true for leaders within the CC system nationwide…It seems that they only stop bad behavior when they are caught and sometimes refuse to stop unless the law is the one catching them. Unfortunately n many cases involving people who had direct contact with children, what they had to repent of did far more damage to children than your grandmother’s story. In the case of the CC you attend there are two situations that involved past employees that led to those employees being added to the sexual offenders listings and generated newspaper articles that are retrievable through any search engine. Since these two names have become subject to public scrutiny I can post them here. Eric, I ask humbly that you would search for them and read the related stories. These names are James Joseph Gould and Rodger Allen Thomas. I believe that a lack of true accountability led to these men being able to hurt children and to no one assessing their true character.
In CC nationwide I believe that has been true. If leaders and employees who fill out lengthy applications to work at CC, can manage easily to not be truly accountable to anyone, then I am not surprised by your grandmother’s story. If she has repented that is awesome but please ask yourself if a person would not have to be deceived in order to think that what she did was acceptable to God? I came to this site and claimed that I was self-deceived and deceived by the CC system in the past. I believe that your grandmother was the same way and that if you cannot see that, that is evidence that you are also the same way. Of course we all have to take personal responsibility for the things we do while in that state of deception….but can an organization truly promote itself as a bearer of God’s truth and teacher of His Word if people in leadership and volunteer capacities cannot live victorious Christian lives while submitted to their authority? That may be a debatable point but is it a debatable point to say that if an organization has a nationwide history of people in leadership capacities hurting children then there is a huge and scary problem?
Once again for anyone who cares enough to answer this question note that in CCs nationwide the following names of past leaders (some of them former pastors) have become public information in newspaper archives or on sex offender sites (by the way in CC nationwide there are also other names of men who have had allegations brought against them which have not yet been assessed for validity but I won’t list those names here). Here are the ones in CC nationwide that the legal system has already acknowledged:
1)Dino Cardelli
2)Christopher Guardado
3)John Flores
4) James Joseph Gould
5) Rodger Allen Thomas
6) Anthony Iglesias
7) Michael Louis Anthony
I could list names connected to other types of proven indiscretions in CC nationwide but since Eric gave us such an amazing illustration of how children can be exposed to people who are not who they claim to be, I decided to confine my list to people who have had contact with children and who I believe did things that prove a lack of accountability. Eric you may not have heard of any other scandals but do you realize that what you revealed about your grandmother is scandalous by biblical standards? I hope you are a loving grandson and that you got her permission to share that on this site, particularly since she repented. The men I listed above have no choice but to have their names publicized for their sins because of the heinous nature of some of them. However, if your name is truly Eric Gonzalez then what you have done is exposed your grandmother to undeserved shame if she did not give you permission to share her personal information….I can attest that your behavior in doing so is consistent with the way CC operates. Eric I believe that you are greatly deceived and as someone who was once just like you I will be praying that the mind-fog is removed.
I’m in Brazil and I’ve worked for many years to the same employee in charge of many responsability. Now I’m trying to go to Central America to work, joining an American company. I’m sorry, pr. Coy, if this space isn’t appropriate to this request, but maybe you could give me home information or even some help about, ok?
Thanks,
Arthur Ricardo
CF Lover says:
April 17, 2012 at 11:03 am
“Straight from the CF website: “Dr. Tom and Donna Mullins are the founders of Christ Fellowship. Their desire to for Christ in Palm Beach County inspired them to start Christ Fellowship in their home in 1984. Their leadership has helped to grow the church from 40 people to over 30,000 on regional campuses in South Florida. In addition, there are nearly 10,000 people experiencing Church Online every week through a live streaming on the Internet around the globe.”
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CF Lover nice try but you are here to deflect from a massive cover up involving your senior pastor Tom Mullins and Bob Coy who engaged in gross defamation of character against a former Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale female attendee he has issues with. And the fact that she, in good faith, reached out to Coy & Mullins in a conciliatory way by letter addressed to both men, and Coy instead of participating denied the whole thing then proceeded to double down. Now more than 7 years later Bob continues a relentless witch hunt using unholy liasons with law enforcement, cyberstalking and all manner of strange, unbiblical mafia-style practices to run the woman out of town. I’ve been a Christian long enough to know that no other church group deals with conflict resolution the way CC does.
Abusive pastors like Coy should not be allowed to leapfrog the biblical process of conflict resolution using elaborate, costly, wasteful, unbiblical and deceptive maneuvers to get over on other Christians they have a beef with.
Love pastor bab and the entire org. They are the real deal and care about everyone’s soul. They do not want to see anyone left behind. They are forthcoming, honest and show true love.
How could any one question a man God has surely Anointed as His Servant. Wow, to even question Pastor Bob. That is similar to those fools who jerred at Christ on the Cross. yes, they jerred then and where are they now. there is really and heaven and a hell. Where will you be when we have the Honor of seeing Christ say, well done thou good and faithful servant. Jeer now you fools. For every knee will bow and every toungee will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Pastor Bob is trying to see to it that everyone has heard the Good News that God Loves us and wants us in heaven with Him, forever! Why are you discussing these silly things thata you wast time on?
Idolatry is a sin.
Dear Susan Steadman,
@412 You ended your comment by stating:
“Why are you discussing these silly things thata you wast time on?”
Clearly you do not posess eyes to see and ears to listen, for if you did, you would not have answered in the manner that you did regarding that which apparently you have foolishly chosen to listen to in part. Suggestion: That you spend time on this blog visiting the various pages and topics, so that you, prayerfully, would be able to gain a better grasp of the things have been shared. For your sake, for the sake of the body of Christ.
Doing a drive-by is not beneficial for anyone and does not honor the Lord. It only serves to reflect the position of your own heart towards things that you are not aware, but rather a reaction to the anger you feel towards those who have provided information that would cause others to take a closer look at CC and its leadership.
@grateful
doesn’t the bible refer to moses as god in the exodus? so why would you accuse susan of idolatory for feeling that way about her pastor if cc pastors are modern day moses? am i missing something here? c’mon back off dude
@charlie #411
you mentioned that bob coy and tom mullins engaged in defamation of character against a former ccftl attendee 7 years ago but isn’t the statute of limitations in florida 5 years? or is bob coy still engaging in that activity and thereby resetting the clock on the statute with each offense? if he is still offending the woman is it with tom or new/different people? could you shed more light please? just trying to remain objective.
@overly concerned #409 who said:
Once again for anyone who cares enough to answer this question note that in CCs nationwide the following names of past leaders (some of them former pastors) have become public information in newspaper archives or on sex offender sites (by the way in CC nationwide there are also other names of men who have had allegations brought against them which have not yet been assessed for validity but I won’t list those names here). Here are the ones in CC nationwide that the legal system has already acknowledged:
1)Dino Cardelli
2)Christopher Guardado
3)John Flores
4) James Joseph Gould
5) Rodger Allen Thomas
6) Anthony Iglesias
7) Michael Louis Anthony
////////////////////
Rodger Allen Thomas is the sex offender from CCFTL and I heard Bob Coy handled things their way w/o law enforcementt involved. And I read on the legal blogs that CCFTL was cleared because the judge was conflicted and friends with bob coy, attended, volunteered and donated at his church etc. Is there any truth to that?
Rich @367 No, I’m not an insider Michelle (you sounded a bit paranoid I thought I’d help out) I’m Michelle, which is my middle name, mom of three, former attendee of CCFL where I was able to get my life back together and grow there. I learned to study the bible there. I learned about Christianity 101 there. I learned how to trust God and evangelize there. I learned to reach out to my community there. I learned to trust God with first fruits there. I taught there. Just thought I’d share a bit.
Michelle,
Thank you for sharing about the positive experience you had at CCFL. Like most of us, we can affirm that we too learn the basics of Christianity, how to evanglize, and how to give tithes or offereings. What else did you learn? Because beyond this, there is so much more that was going on, obviously without you knowing this. Spend a little time on this blog so that you will understand our concerns and the need for CC to repent and to do away with the Moses’ Model.
By the way, when you left, did you take up with another CC? If so, all the more reason for you to spend some time going through the topics listed on the left side of this blog.
DJ Dove you didn’t to have to ask anyone on here about the Rodger Allen Thomas case and whether the judge was “conflicted” and “attended, volunteered and donated” to CCFTL. The information on that case and the lawsuit Thomas’ victim brought against CCFTL and Thomas and the outcome of the suit is public knowledge and so is the connection of the judge to CCFTL. When I say public knowledge I mean: Court documents and newspaper articles etc.
I am only a layperson but based on the documents and newspaper articles, it appears as though the victim sued Calvary Chapel because Rodger Allen Thomas was employed there at the time of the incidents and he also attended church there and he adopted her through the foster care organization started by a pastor there and she also attended school there on the same premises where Thomas worked and went to church and Thomas would visit her at the school etc. The victim did not win the lawsuit. The newspaper documents are available by searching for Rodger Allen Thomas and Calvary Chapel at either of the two major search engines.
The court documents are available through the Broward County Official Records Search. Instrument #108989273 is a nine page document that you can search for if you select the Instrument # tab. There are a few other documents regarding this case but this document contains the name of the judge (the one you asked about DJ Dove) on the first page directly under the case number. You can then search for that judge’s name and Calvary Chapel on any search engine. DJ Dove it is up to you after that to answer your own questions after reading through the publically available court documents and newspaper articles.
Some other court documents regarding this case include Instruments #109098023 and 109079604 .
Some people have highlighted CC’s connections with members of the legal system: judges and police etc and connections to people of influence and power, DJ Dove it is up to you to determine if any of that is valid and particularly if it is valid in this case since you are the one asking questions. To everyone else: If CC actually has any type of unfair influence in the legal system or anywhere else, then just be careful that anything you say can be backed up by publically established information. One day everything will come to light fully and if there is any type of unfair influence then CC will lose that influence, but until that day, exercise wisdom and caution.
Bob many of us enjoy you as an entertainer, and we think you’re one of the shrewdest CEOs in the CC conglomerate. That’s it. It will be wonderful to see you mature and grow FROM a micro-managing, power-loving, flesh-pleasing, free-wheeling, numbers-spouting, people-using, war-mongering, influence-peddling scarythingisabob INTO a more introspective, self-denying, peace-making, God-loving, people-centered, balanced, discreet, circumspect and christianthingisabob for the New Year. You will come to find that resolving personal conflicts in-house and out-sourcing sexual abuse investigations to law enforcement is the best, most fruitful and Christlike way to conduct your life and the church’s business.
ScarythingismyGod time may very well reveal that there probably will never be a christianthingisabob and since birds of a feather flock together as has been seen by the the many similarities in the CC family there won’t be a God-loving, people-centered, balanced, discreet soul in the bunch…pure conjecture and opinion of course.
For instance there was a debate that went on for several comments regarding a past divorce and whether or not it was biblical and if there was even a biblical basis to be a pastor etc. A simple search would have found a newspaper article with comments about the divorced spouse being a “born-again Christian woman”. Again everyone is free to come to their own conclusions about the significance of such a comment. If anyone is interested in putting that question to rest please perform a search on one of the two major search engines and input: Channeling Jesus charismatic leader Cross TV. It should be the first result you find. The article is well written but page 4 gives insight into the ongoing divorce debate. You can draw your own conclusions. Opinions are still free.
As an aside I am wondering how many CC leaders had false starts with Christianity and how long have those false starts lasted?
“415.DJ DOVE says:
December 18, 2012 at 1:02 pm .@grateful
doesn’t the bible refer to moses as god in the exodus? so why would you accuse susan of idolatory for feeling that way about her pastor if cc pastors are modern day moses? am i missing something here? c’mon back off dude”
****************************
yes, you’re definitely missing something…..a brain
“Scarythingisabob” LOL!
Bob is scared of his own shadow!
420.Scarythingisabob says:
December 21, 2012 at 5:35 am
“The court documents are available through the Broward County Official Records Search. Instrument #108989273 is a nine page document that you can search for if you select the Instrument # tab.”
**************************************
Yes thanks. I read the “nine page document” on another post a while back on this site which I believe contained the link. But I couldn’t find any of the other docs you cited but my sources tell me the judge’s room # was 999 and God looked down and saw 666 didn’t like it blah blah blah….have to think about that one.
And since I have your attention and you followed up on DJ’s questions about the judge I wanted to ask if you ‘Scarythingisabob’ know if the room number assignment was random or what? Remember Herman Cain how 999 didn’t work for him? Does anyone want to have an honest discussion about this? The more we get to know God the more we realize how little we know. His ways are past finding out.
Also, could you upload a copy/link of the sex abuse complaint against CCFTL and answer thereto?
@Scarythingisabob #420
Thanks for the references. Actually the 9 page document you cite is an order granting CCFTL’s motion for summary judgment. Then a month later on December 9, 2009 at 5:37pm the victim’s attorney sent an email agreeing to a final document from opposing counsel with a more telling/clearer title called “Final Judgment in Favor of CCFTL” and indicated he would not be at the hearing attended by CCFTL’s attorney and the judge.
Then you said:
“One day everything will come to light fully and if there is any type of unfair influence then CC will lose that influence, but until that day, exercise wisdom and caution.”
What exactly do you mean by the above statement?
DJ, I too wondered about that statement by Scarythingisabob. Let’s hope he/she returns to provide clarification and upload a link to the complaint and CCFTL’s answer vs. just telling us about “the outcome of the suit”
As Christians I hope we care about methods we employ to obtain desired outcomes and reject the pagan fallacy that the end justifies the means which Scripture tells us does not belong in God’s economy.
Merry Christmas all.
I looked back at the directions I gave to find the information you wondered about. I followed those directions and in 2 minutes I had the document.
I am only a participant on this blog just like you both are. Posting a link is not necessary since you asked a question and I kindly gave you the means to obtain the answer. As far as the statement I made I am sorry if you had a problem with it. Almost weekly someone comes on this blog and shares a story that could potentially affect any unfair influence CC has if they do actually have unfair influence. I thought that was very self-explanatory. Sorry if that was unclear.
I thought your username, overall tone in the first comment @ #420, DJ’s response and your followup comment was interesting.
Bob Coy believes end justifies the means and if having the justice system & law enforcement in the back pocket gets you a win is a win for the sake of his ‘ministry’ and its assets
what specifically did you mean by “exercise wisdom and caution” @ #420?
Charlie at 411 said:
“CF Lover nice try but you are here to deflect from a massive cover up involving your senior pastor Tom Mullins and Bob Coy who engaged in gross defamation of character against a former Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale female attendee he has issues with. And the fact that she, in good faith, reached out to Coy & Mullins in a conciliatory way by letter addressed to both men, and Coy instead of participating denied the whole thing then proceeded to double down. Now more than 7 years later Bob continues a relentless witch hunt using unholy liasons with law enforcement, cyberstalking and all manner of strange, unbiblical mafia-style practices to run the woman out of town. I’ve been a Christian long enough to know that no other church group deals with conflict resolution the way CC does.”
“Charlie” you’re dead wrong. I’m not deflecting. I am fully aware of Tom Mullins involvement in the defamation and the letter addressed to Bob & Tom asking for reconciliation. For the record, Pastor Tom was completely broken up and contrite about the whole thing and subsequently repented and removed the offending sermon(s) he used to slander/defame the woman from his pulpit. Furthermore, his son Todd is now senior pastor. In other words, he pretty much fessed up. I can’t say the same for Bob Coy who remains unrepentant last time I checked.
ScarythingismyGod at 421 said:
“Bob many of us enjoy you as an entertainer, and we think you’re one of the shrewdest CEOs in the CC conglomerate. That’s it. It will be wonderful to see you mature and grow FROM a micro-managing, power-loving, flesh-pleasing, free-wheeling, numbers-spouting, people-using, war-mongering, influence-peddling scarythingisabob INTO a more introspective, self-denying, peace-making, God-loving, people-centered, balanced, discreet, circumspect and christianthingisabob for the New Year. You will come to find that resolving personal conflicts in-house and out-sourcing sexual abuse investigations to law enforcement is the best, most fruitful and Christlike way to conduct your life and the church’s business.”
I agree with everything except for the last part about law enforcement. “Charlie” said it well in 429:
“Bob Coy believes end justifies the means and if having the justice system & law enforcement in the back pocket gets you a win is a win for the sake of his ‘ministry’ and its assets”
How sad that the institution (law enforement) that is set up to protect innocent victims winds up hurting re-victimizing them.
To “mean2bnice” and “Scarythingisabob”
Yes, Bob does scare or at least he tries. He controls this site and Broward County where he pastors or at least tries. Let’s just call him “Broward Bob” cause most the darn county is in his back pocket. He has a ministry assigned to this site. Think about it. He has the largest CC and any negative publicity about CC and CC pastors affects the entire brand and the fat cats like Coy stand to lose the most. Ever noticed whenever a comment is left about Coy it gets pushed down by trolls or shills. If CCFTL attendees only knew the stuff there funding. I have a friend working there who tells me about the insane waste behind the scenes.
Reading through this thread confirms what I’ve been sensing all along. For some strange reason, Bob is now steeped in numerology the last couple years and we don’t believe any of it is God-inspired. He tried to influence the outcome of the election by invoking his numerical nonsense. For instance, he was to ‘use’ his 29 assistant pastors to match up with Florida’s 29 electoral votes and deliver the state to Romney, and look what happened in FL again this past election cycle. Bob can you do a bible study about this stuff and help us make sense of what you’re doing with the Lord’s time/money? Most attendees follow blindly and don’t read this blog so they have no idea about this strange aspect of the ministry which.
What was strange and shocking to me was my Muslim turned Christian friend sent me an audio clip he recorded of Bob reading passages out of context from the Quran the week before the election to appeal to some 100K voters under the sound of his voice. Bob next time instead of misapplying passages from the Quran to scare Americans into voting against the secret Muslim claiming to be a Christian President, why not use their own material to point Muslims to Christ? That is more effective.
Instead Bob spent time pre-election arguing with non-believers like Ken at a local bagel shop to drum up support for Romney. This actually came from an International news outlet:
“One of those Romney supporters, in particular, is trying to convince another deli regular to vote for the Republican.
Bob Coy is a local celebrity, the pastor at Fort Lauderdale’s Calvary Chapel, one of the largest evangelical churches in the U.S.
Coy is arguing with Ken, the toupee-ed, self-described hoodlum who intends to cast his ballot for Obama. Ken won’t give his last name — “I have too many enemies,” he laughs — and insists he once played for the Alouettes, although he didn’t like the CFL.
“I am deeply concerned about Obama’s foreign policy and the way that he has behaved towards Israel is not good for America,” Coy says as Grizzaffi’s wife purses her lips behind the cash register.
“I want your grandchildren and my grandchildren to have a full life,” Coy tells Ken, “and the only way they’ll have a full life is if we have a country, and the only way they’ll have a country is if we have a strong military and a strong economy.”
===================================================
Bob is not trying to point Ken to Christ, but he did try to get him to vote for Romney. What a mess. This is the same Bob who said (before Romney became the nominee) if we vote for the pro-family, pro-life candidate God will take care of everything else including the economy etc.
God doesn’t want Bob Coy or any Christian pastor playing that kind of role in politics. That’s not what we’re here fur. Where did Romney get his 900 point system and the $17K cap on tax deductions ideas from.
Check this out:
“After the primary, Romney instituted a point system that assigned a specific numerical value to each event — rallies, speeches, fundraisers and so on. The more labor-intensive the event, the more points it was assigned. Romney’s instructions to his assistant were that he was not to exceed 900 points on a given day, the better to manage his time.”
“…you could say everybody’s going to get up to a $17,000 deduction, and you can use your charitable deduction, your home mortgage deduction, or others – a healthcare deduction, and you can fill that bucket, if you will, that $17,000 bucket that way.” Romney said.
Good night y’all.
secret societies like skull and crossbones are also into numerology 322 (bush I- II, kerry all rise to high positions because they play with #’s)…
remember the movie, “what about bob”?
To be a “pastor” is a great gifting. Pastor Bob Coy is a gifted Pastor. I believe God must of gave him the spiritual gifts necessary to shepherd God’s church. This gift cannot be earned. You born with it , God gives it
“It was he who GAVE some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers” (Eph 4:11).
It cannot be earned by going to seminaries or school. Although, of course, a pastor will study the Bible, he cannot “earn” the gift of pastor by studying the Bible.
Pastor Bob is a GIFT for all members of the Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale, who enjoy his gracious service every Sunday morning, I love the way he speaks his mind, and although I dont always agree, I love the way he preches and for me he is a great Pastor next to Pastor Fidel Gomez.
let’s all sing along with bethania, we worship you almighty bob, there is none like you….
Beth, you’re right, Bob is gifted. They have to turn away people at the Sunday service due lack of seats they’ll probably need to add another service on Sunday. I can’t believe all this stuff people are saying about P. Bob. Jealous. We don’t know this side of Bob so it can’t be true. So what if he has law enforcement and the court system in his pocket. They were going to be in somebody’s back pocket so it might as well be Bob’s, right? Would you rather they ended up in the back pockets of the drug dealers? Maybe he can use his connections to get this site taken down permanently.
And yes, Pastor Fidel Gomez is gifted too. He explainded 999 good enough for me this past weekend in Bob’s absense. He started off by saying he was filling in for the gifted Bob who did “9 Christmas services in 2 days” but will be at the New Year’s Eve service (in progress) which “starts at 9 pm” just before asking us to turn to “Luke 9″ for the bible study. Awesome!
The stuff about hacking and cyberwars on eBay is so laughable. I just looked at CCFTL’s eBay listings and there are 87 items up with the first item being:
“Fushigi Magic Gravity Ball with Free Tutorial DVD NEW fun toy”
It’s selling for $19.99 and all the proceeds will go toward the ministry.
There u have it. HAPPY New Year!
Bob Coy strikes me as a likable simpleton. He’s a mile wide and an inch deep.
Coy’s bio (in his own words) is very telling. He likes the spotlight. His career in the music industry and managing an “all girl revue” at a Casino on the strip in Las Vegas.
“His star rose quickly”…big tell.
The guy was a coke head and alcoholic (his own words)…who found Jesus, then decided it was a good idea to become a Celebrity Preacher in the Calvary Chapel System.
He’s got a good gig. Lots of fame, power and money…he gets to hear himself talk and has tons of adoring fans and worshippers. He hob-nobs with the Spiritual Elites of the System and is now a respectable Celebrity.
…he’s still like the Rich Young Ruler, IMO. I see something concerning. He hasn’t given it all up.
I think Bob Coy is getting much of his reward here on earth and likes to see himself and hear himself talk too much. I think he is part of the Problem with the CC Dynamic and the Celebrity-ization and American Calvary Chapel Idol-ization that occurs in the Construct.
Bob is not “specially anointed”…he’s an egotistical jerk, a former druggie and lecherous sinner who would do better remembering that more often, rather than being the smug comedian on stage at the CC Senior Pastor’s conferences.
I think he’s a pedestrian bible teacher and mostly hype and typical of the breed of CC pastor with the gory testimony, winning smile and slick marketing…and kool-aid drinking followers who practically throw their bras on stage (metaphorically) when Rock Star Bob is “on” or even mentioned.
I hope Coy spends more of his time giving the vast amount of Jesus Money away that he collects en masse and I hope he acts more like a Servant of All and the opposite of Worldly leadership this coming year.
I think CCFTL has the potential for a lot more good and I think Coy has the potential to example the Jesus Model…but the head-wind is his own hype and his own pride.
What I would like to say is that the girls should not use pants went they are in the altar singing to the Lord ,because some of then wear very tide pants and thats not respect we christian have to be very careful what we wear ,I am a ladyof 74 years old and I have noticed that ,long time ago I am not coming to this churh to critisise but woman principaly the wants that serve the LORD in the santuary ha ve to be very careful the way they dress ,I love the churh because no body is perfect and the calling to the altar to recieved the LORD should be more serious let them know that they have to change their life from the beguining tell them the truth , people if you dont tell then they think is a game a lot of them dont go to the roon tell them the truth like the Lord use to say .
No churh is perfect because we are no perfect , but we can change a lot of thing, for me the pastor is a good man of god and Fidel too they are humble people , and men fron God the want that critize should go to the perfect churh because the Lord say never critize the ungido the Jehovah you can say something that you dont like in the churh but not the pastor.
Sarah, with all due respect, God never told us that we are to ignore abuse and corruption that takes place among those who call themselves a pastor, elder, or deacon. On the surface , men (and woman) can appear to be godly and nice, but when people come forth to express thier concerns or to make it known they have been a victim of abuse, but are ignored or made to feel as though they have done something wrong in attempting to get the help or to correct a wrong done to them, then this is not of the Lord.
Being perfect has nothing to do with deceiving others to believe that you are in the Lord and taking people’s money to build their own kingdom and retirement fund. We all sin, but we are not to lead a lifestyle of doing so. And if we are, then the Bible tells us that we are not of the Lord, but are children of the devil instead. See 1 John.
Sarah, I appreciate your heart and also agree with how a female need to take care in how she dresses and what her behavior is communicating to others. Likewise, the males need examine their own hearts for it is not what is outside of the body that is causing that person to sin, but rather what is already in that person’s heart to do. And if it is to do, it really doesn’t matter what a female may be wearing.
These may be humble in your sight and out of respect for your age, Sarah. But to others, there appears to be a lot of questionable activities that would indicate otherwise. To ignore them only makes the body more full of leaven as it encourafes and turns a deaf ear and a blind eye to to such things that ought not be permitted within the congregation. Apostle Paul tells us that we need to expose these things and hold such, including those who call themselves a pastor to an account.
Thank you, Uriah, for your gracious response above.
Okay … I’ll say out loud what some others here have suspect:
“Ms. Alvarez” … Hmm, seems unlikely a 74 year old woman would be posting on this blog. Possible? Yes. Plausible? Prolly not. Let’s just say something doesn’t smell right with this post. The guess from this peanut gallery is that the post was written by a man employed by Bob Coy to troll this sight.
Grateful I agree with you completely that something smells wrong about our sweet little 74 year old coming on here to champion the cause of CCFTL. I also agree with what you said to uriahisaliveandwell. Uriah’s response was gracious and on point. Thank you for it Uriah.
I particularly liked the statement:
” To ignore them only makes the body more full of leaven as it encourages and turns a deaf ear and a blind eye to to such things that ought not be permitted within the congregation”.
As usual, every time I read something by a CC supporter on any thread on this blog, I am more and more grateful that God pulled me out of that darkness and blindness and from being led by the blind into a ditch. It’s amazing but no matter what any CC supporter writes at this point all I hear behind it is “I love my leaders, they can do no wrong ever and no one better say anything about them ever!”. It is really quite astonishing how much the comments of CC supporters have made me understand the nature of mind control and how charismatic people can sway the religious masses into a mind-fog stronger than any opiate can induce! CC’s effect on large groups gives me a context to understand so many things about the effect of the “god of this age” in blinding minds! Biblical stories of the effect of spiritual blindness on large groups have come alive in a new and astonishing way!
I now understand how it was possible for only 8 people to enter the ark in Noah’s time while the multitudes on the earth were all deceived and corrupted by the enemy and perished in the flood! I now understand how an entire generation of Israelites died in the wilderness due to unbelief and disobedience and how only two obedient ones from that generation, Joshua and Caleb, survived to see the promised land! I now understand how Jeremiah was the only prophet speaking the truth of God while the entire nation of Israel was listening to false prophets who cared only about speaking words that would keep the people pleased with them and deceived by the enemy! I even now understand how it was possible that people who witnessed or heard about the miracles Jesus did were the ones who ended up screaming “Crucify Him!”
But look at how God’s purposes got fulfilled even in the midst of what the enemy meant for evil! The enemy thought he was deceiving the people into crucifying the Lord of glory as they indulged in the wisdom of this world, but little did he know that Jesus had to die for our sins and that He would be resurrected to give us new life! Truly what the enemy meant for evil God meant for good for the saving of many! CC supporters who come on here worshipping men, end up showing the Christian community more of their bad fruit as they make statements that do not align with the Word of God and they overlook the heinous atrocities that have happened in CC nationwide and refuse to really comment on them. At CCFTL the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and the suit brought by the victim against CC and the judge who failed to recuse herself, gets overlooked in a flood of shallow comments that amount to “I love my leaders, they can do no wrong..”. Then people point out the large numbers and get caught up in that as a sign of fruit. What more did Jesus have to say than what He said in Matthew 7, to make people understand that “many” will come to Him telling Him all the things they did in His name and He will tell them to depart because He never knew them! Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven folks, only those who do the will of the Father and the Father’s will is definitely that a system that has had as many incidents of leaders hurting little ones should go to Him in repentance and correct any outstanding offenses and set out with a plan to try to stop offenses like that from happening in the future…but at CC nationwide that has not happened!
Rodger Allen Thomas was not the first person associated with CCFTL to make it to the sex offender listings. There was another pedophile in CCFTL’s more humble beginnings by the name of James Joseph Gould who was also caught. All of this lends to the argument that CC as a whole nationwide has a problem in that men like that are drawn to it because of its complete lack of true accountability and its dictatorial style of leadership. I have gone one step further to say that without the Holy Spirit at work there will never be true accountability, there will only be men with great amounts of charisma able to wink and blink and nod and bamboozle people into thinking that CC is a work of the Lord when it is not. Charisma goes a long way folks. CC is not the first organization to thrive because of it. It is not the first time in history that men with their own agenda have been able to lead large groups of people, even intelligent and influential people to overlook indiscretions and support them without questioning. They make me understand how the other mind-manipulators in history past have exercised influence and covered up atrocities and no one even blinked while they were doing it, until the final outcome could not be overlooked. When we refuse to question established wrong behavior we leave ourselves vulnerable to experience hurt ourselves or have an innocent child experience hurt. Unquestioning devotion to leaders whose behavior is questionable has caused too many problems through out history for anyone to ever think that it is acceptable and it is also not biblical to continue in that type of undiscerning immaturity. Two or three witnesses saying the same thing about an organization should be enough for the Christian community to pause and question but throughout the years there have been far more than two or three witnesses! Unquestioning devotion is dangerous!!!! It is the very fabric that cults are cut from!!!! Take any cult of the past and undoubtedly that was was the biggest problem! Their followers all would have said things that amounted to “I love my leaders, they can do no wrong……”
In a sense, when CC followers who come on here display that mindless, unquestioning devotion and the worship of man, they give the onlooking Christian world something specific to pray about with respect to CC because this mentality is very, very dangerous both spiritually and in every other way! We sometimes use the expression “don’t drink the KoolAid” on this site using the infamous cult death at Jonestown to highlight the most extreme possibilities of mindless devotion. There are many who will argue that CC leaders cannot be compared to Jim Jones but there would have been many in Jim Jones time who would have argued and said that he could not be compared to Hitler! All it takes is mindless devotion, even in the face of questionable incidents, to create an atmosphere that breeds atrocities! Both Jim Jones and Hitler were charismatic and had a large public following of unquestioning devotees. One was a religious cult leader and the other a ruthless, maniacal dictator. Neither one would have allowed anyone to question his activities. But before the full scope of what they were really like got revealed, they were both well-liked and popular….charisma overflowing! Jim Jones had US government officials in his back pocket before Jonestown happened!!! There were probably signs along the way that if someone had heeded and spoken up, would have prevented the atrocious outcome of his leadership of the Peoples Temple!
For those who think that using him as an illustration of why the unquestioning devotion seen by CC followers is dangerous, think about this: What does is take for someone to sexually molest a child? What does it mean that men like that keep popping up over and over again in CC nationwide? When we read about that type of thing don’t we say “Monster!” Well imagine blind, unquestioning, mindless devotion to a place that nationwide has a history of monsters? Exactly….therein is the need for the illustration of how far mindless devotion can go if we don’t stop it.
Charisma goes a long way! There is enough charisma at CCFTL to cover over the cases of Rodger Allen Thomas and James Joseph Gould to such an extent that not a single CC supporter comments specifically on them. Now that I have said that, quite possibly some “74 year old grandmother” might end up coming on here now with some type of deflecting, fluffy, unbiblical comment regarding these men
What do you think Grateful? 
God knows everything though. He sees beyond the charisma to the heart of each person. It is a new year but I have an old refrain for everyone coming on here and overlooking the multiple atrocities of people connected to CC nationwide and instead choosing the mindless worship of leaders, over the discernment the Bible calls us to: Please examine yourselves and see if you truly are in the faith and if Jesus Christ truly lives in you. Again I did this examination myself and that is why none of the foolish suggestions that everything on this blog is slander phase me. I know that this blog is not slander but instead it warns the public about the lack of accountability and the dictatorial leadership at CC nationwide and the type of men who have been drawn to it and the things they have actually done which are documented or have the support of the two or three witnesses the Bible speaks of.
I also know that the God I serve wants us all to come to a true, saving knowledge of Him….not just a pretty picture that covers up a mess underneath. Lighting and sound and the right temperature, coupled with words mouthed but not truly heartfelt, can create an illusion of a “special anointing”. Hey anyone, anywhere, having any type of religious experience can have the sense that something awesome and overwhelming has happened especially if that place takes time to present a beautiful front. In the case of CC, God sees the bad fruit and unless we are blind we also see the bad fruit! Actually so does the nation if they read the newspapers! I know God does not want the world to blaspheme His name as they look on and think that “Christian” leaders are incapable of stopping themselves from defiling little children or that they do more covering up of indiscretions than politicians. The God I serve is not happy about that one bit..He wasn’t happy with the scribes and Pharisees and the leaven of their hypocrisy as they tried to sit in Moses’ seat proclaiming the Word while not living it or truly leading anyone else to live it. He is not happy with the countless organizations throughout the ages that have followed in the tradition of the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees. The God I serve is concerned about how the “least of these’ is treated. He will forgive and bring change if true repentance is made and if turning to Him to correct the wickedness at the heart of it all happens. He is gracious and kind and He is patient. He was patient with each of us who now truly know Him. He is patient with CC nationwide as they continue to be the type of place that sees publically revealed bad fruit testify to the rottenness of the tree yet have tried to cover it up to maintain a front of godliness. If you serve a god who is applauding that type of mentality then examine yourself again because it most definitely is not the God of the Bible you are serving.
Happy New Year everyone! To those who know the Lord let’s increase our prayer for Alex and the upcoming trial and this site and each other and for this nation because I truly don’t think that CC is the only place where there are huge issues that make the Gospel look weak. The Gospel is not weak folks! It is capable of changing lives from the inside out, not just on the surface so everything looks good when things are really off. For those who know Jesus nationwide let’s let 2013 be the year when we refuse to believe the lies of the enemy and refuse to be led into bondage to works-based, man-worshipping, religious activity or the ways of the world. Let’s instead in 2013 press in to know the God we serve in a way that only the Holy Spirit can cause to happen and in a way that lines up with the Word of God with all the love, grace and mercy and justice, truth, discernment and maturity that comes along with truly abiding in Him.
Thank you OC for that Grand post!
Amen OC, thank you, there is so much truth in your post.
Uriah yours as well.
I read the posts of those who seem to worship their pastors and I just shake my head, I realize that they really just don’t know. I hope they never have to come to the knowledge in the way so many have, through suffering. Knowledge can either come through personal experience or by learning through the mistakes of others, or even better listening to the warnings. So if I were to come across this site for the first time, I would begin to do my homework and investgate these alligations. God gave us a mind so we could make educated decissions not to be blind followers.
Hey and if you love your pastor, great! But hold him to a state of accountability. That is true love.
Tina @ 445
This is what I have also stated to CC regarding my husband. If they truely love and care about him, they would hold him to an account rather than enable him to continue to wallow in this duplicious lifestyle bearing a false witness against me and our marriage. To my husband, I have shared with him that it is because I do love him that I contend for our marriage and his very soul.
My only regret is that I introduced him to CC in the first place.
Linda we live in a society that is self centered, if we are not careful we to can be sucked in and poisoned by it. Sorry you are having to deal with this pain and trial in your life. We as Christians are not amuned to the scheams of the enemy, thats why its important to have those around us who love us enough to correct us and hold us accountable. It is a wise man who heeds to correction,its a fool who keeps hurting himself and others.
It is right to expect your pastor to be honest, loving, kind, generous, pure. We shouldn’ t settle for less.
@240: “if there is no smoke thn there is no fire. Stop incinuating that Bob Coy is an abusive pastor”
I would stop insinuating and just say that he is. For sure.
@245: “Churches with little finances seem to deal more effectively with these types of problems. Sad.
Good luck Bob Romney ”
Bob why didn’t you tell Romney it’s not about the money instead of costing him the election?
@247: “Because earlier I came across something else that was posted on FloridaTrend about there being 530 employees.”
More like 800. Seriously, but that’s because they have a school which is about 1/2 of that still a lot. Chrrist Fellowship in Palm Beach county is bigger than CCFTL (30,000+ members on 5 campuses) and have 150 employees and 8 not 29 assistant pastors. A much better managed and Christ-centered church with an effective system of accountability for the senior pastor.
@250: “Don’t even get me started with Mitt Romney. I’m a registered republican and don’t too much care for him. The guy is out of touch and quite peculiar. Who puts any dog let alone your own dog on the roof of a car on a long trip to Canada? I can’t get that story out
of my mind.”
Mr. Out of touch got his wish: 47% of the popular vote! You can’t make this stuff up. God has an incredible sense of humor.
@280: “Too may ccft paid staff trolls on here trying to make pastor boob look good….”
They tell me it’s a full blown ministry now. Gotta protect them assets.
@284: “I’ve read some of Coy’s stuff and I know he’s a part of the CC “Affiliated” System which means he has signed off on Chuck Smith’s “Distinctives” and it appears he has also bought into the Moses Model of Church Government as articulated by others here and elsewhere.”
CCFTL under Bob Coy is Moses Model on steroids. I saw somewhere: “Guns & Moses” Bob Coy opposes gun control and believes it’s a ‘heart issue’. I believe it’s both. Guns by themselves don’t kill people neither do people by themselves. It’s that simple, let’s not complicate the issue.
@286: “I’ve heard enough of this Pastor Bob worship. To you sycophants overwhelmed by the personality of P-Bob. I worked at CCFTL for a year. I left as a result of challenging the leadership, which retreated into the reputation of their name and with a strict avoidance of scripture.”
You challenge Bob Coy, you might as well leave town on your own and change your identity or they will force you out using any and all means necessary even if it means breaking the law…for the good of the ‘ministry’. Bob is a fighter and will fight until his eyes pop out of his head put them back in and keep fighting.
@289: “As a former cc pastor, my personal dealings with ccfl and many of the other big cc corporate enterprises is that they are run like a family mafia with the “senior” pastor acting like a “christian” mob boss…”
Yes indeed some CC heads operate like the “Christian Mafia” and guys like Bob Coy could be thought of as the “Princes of the Mafia”. Ries, Gomez and Rosales are relegated to the Mexican wing of the Mafia masterminding legal and not so legal activities of treachery and deceit all for the sake of protecting their “ministries”.
@291: “Coy doesn’t appear on the Adultery list or the porn list or the child abuse list or molestation list or the financial wrongdoing list that I’ve gathered through investigation with the info from former CC and CCCM insiders (plural).”
It depends on the definition of adultery you’re using: man’s or God’s….worldly or Christian. Bob is not married to his first wife who is still alive.
@294: “Got some gossip on Pastro Bob and its a Doozy. Get this.
He tithes over 20% AND sponsors a bunch of kids from Compassion International.”
If you’re privy to that kind of info and you’re not Bob, Diane, Christian or Caitlyn that’s sad.
@296: “How would anonymous know what Coy gives to the church? How would he know it’s 20%? Anonymous, do you know what Bob Coy makes in salary and perks to know he’s giving 20%?
Unless anonymous is Bob?
@297: “Pretty sure anonymous was just being facetious and has no clue what Coy gives or makes…and yes, the vast majority (if not all) CC’s have opaque finances, which is something they should consider changing…for their own accountability benefit.”
Keep dreamin’ If you knew some of the activities that CCFTL donors are supporting. It’s like dirty restaurant (bacteria paradise) secrets the crew won’t tell you or you would not dine there.
@298: “actually pastor bob did say that he gives 20% in a service before”
there ya go
@300: “But why is Coy saying in the pulpit how much he tithes?”
My ‘expert’ friend likens such pathological behavior to “Public Masturbation”
But forget about BENEVOLENCE
Designed to hide the EVIDENCE.
Bob’s Senior Pastor’s CONFERENCE
Of orchestrated NONSENSE
Has lit the way for RECOMPENSE.”
Rich get out of here! That’s hilarious.
My name is Rich too and I’m so freaking RICH. I’ve got silver in my hair, gold in my teeth, sugar in my blood, crystals in my kidneys, lead in my butt, iron in my arteries and a rich supply of natural gas in my gut!
@301: “Your post was NOT about Pastor Bob Coy was why are you witting that garbage here? If you ask me, he does not get nearly paid enough what he deserves. SO instead of being so jealous and envious, why dont you focus on increasing your own income so you dont continue to become the vile and miserable person you are?”
I remember Mitt Romney saying something similar before his 47% comment in Boca Raton, FL. I wonder if Bob was there. Were you Bob? It didn’t work for Mitt who is now hiding out somewhere staring at his tax returns wondering what happened, wishing he had done things differently and not focused so much on money.
@411: “Bob continues a relentless witch hunt using unholy liasons with law enforcement, cyberstalking and all manner of strange, unbiblical mafia-style practices to run the woman out of town. I’ve been a Christian long enough to know that no other church group deals with conflict resolution the way CC does.”
Will you let us know your findings about interference/interception of USPS postal service delivery/online tracking system? I got a ‘rich text’ about that.
@414: “Doing a drive-by is not beneficial for anyone and does not honor the Lord. It only serves to reflect the position of your own heart towards things that you are not aware, but rather a reaction to the anger you feel towards those who have provided information that would cause others to take a closer look at CC and its leadership.”
I’m definitely not doing a drive by right Uriah? Lol.
@417: “Rodger Allen Thomas is the sex offender from CCFTL and I heard Bob Coy handled things their way w/o law enforcementt involved. And I read on the legal blogs that CCFTL was cleared because the judge was conflicted and friends with bob coy, attended, volunteered and donated at his church etc. Is there any truth to that?”
Yup. It’s Bob way or the you know what.
@432: “Bob is not trying to point Ken to Christ, but he did try to get him to vote for Romney. What a mess. This is the same Bob who said (before Romney became the nominee) if we vote for the pro-family, pro-life candidate God will take care of everything else including the economy etc.”
Bob must have made that pro-family, pro-life candidate comment before Romney became the nominee because we discovered the guy cannot take a stand on any value and takes every position possible on key GOP issues for political expediency.
“After the primary, Romney instituted a point system that assigned a specific numerical value to each event — rallies, speeches, fundraisers and so on. The more labor-intensive the event, the more points it was assigned. Romney’s instructions to his assistant were that he was not to exceed 900 points on a given day, the better to manage his time.”
That’s so silly. Obama adopted a 9-state strategy and won so how do you explain that?
@420: ” If CC actually has any type of unfair influence in the legal system or anywhere else, then just be careful that anything you say can be backed up by publically established information.”
What about privately established information?
@436: “Beth, you’re right, Bob is gifted.
The stuff about hacking and cyberwars on eBay is so laughable.”
The stuff about Bob being gifted is what I find laughable
@436: “Bob Coy strikes me as a likable simpleton. He’s a mile wide and an inch deep.’
We’re commanded to love. Like? dunno.
“Bob is not “specially anointed”…
Bob is not anointed period, specially or unspecially. He knows it is why he tells the congregation if they’re on their death bed not to call him to come pray over them for healing ’cause they’re probably not going to make it.What kind of a pastor says that kind of stuff, and no I didn’t make that up. He’s said it more than once too.
@442: “At CCFTL the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and the suit brought by the victim against CC and the judge who failed to recuse herself, gets overlooked in a flood of shallow comments that amount to “I love my leaders, they can do no wrong..”. Then people point out the large numbers and get caught up in that as a sign of fruit.”
That’s the cultlike part about CC that separates it from other Christian denoms.
@444: “So if I were to come across this site for the first time, I would begin to do my homework and investgate these alligations. God gave us a mind so we could make educated decissions not to be blind followers.”
Well said.
RD Cares: I believe I was my comment was addressed to Susan Steadman.
RD cares—-a little slow—-LOL
Linda, you didn’t make the comment-I did
But that’s okay—you can make the comment too. The more the merrier–
I love reading a post that can make men and women think. Also, many thanks for permitting me to comment!
Why don’t they all just become Mormons. That church is growing like topsy. Or, become Roman Catholics. That ought to give them power and authority. So, are these CC churches of the Lord just because they are BIG and have power and influence? Read the seven letters to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 and discover what the difference is between the big institutional church and the genuine Body of Christ. Let the Word of God judge all.
Bob Coy is in desperate need of prayer. God is about to deal with him, and it won’t be pretty. God is not mocked. The storm is coming. Pray, pray, pray.
Can we please just stay on topic here…
Sorry if this is off topic but can any of the regulars tell me why Bob cancelled the caribean cruise trip CCFTL had planned for March? We’d been saving for this and never heard a word about the cancellation til we went to the site yesterday. Strange. An announcement would have been nice Bob.
Leave Bob Coy alone. He’s correcting his mistakes but this explains everything and the 27 pastors covering for him. If the cruise got cancelled maybe it’s for the best bc it seemed quite pricey. It will all pan out folks, in His time.
Not sure who Dave is and why he’s concerned about the topic? Feel free to ask questions, Fl Beach Bum. I hope someone who knows will answer. You deserve one.
Maybe they are going on this one?
2013 Caribbean Cruise – Honor In Marriage – hosted by Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa with guest speakers Brian and Cheryl Brodersen. The cruise leaves from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida on May 12th, 2013 for one week. Cost ranges from $999 – $1209 per person for the cruise (airfare to Florida not included). A $50 deposit by Sept. 15 will hold a space. See flyer on bulletin for more information.
http://honorinmarriage.cccm.com/events.html
Amazing ship!
Bob is into some stuff. That cruise was just another one of his ‘bit of business’. It was to arrive in Cozumel, Mexico on March 17, 2013. Be thankful it got canceled. I find there are too many secrets and hidden agendas at CCFtl. We need to pray that God Almighty, King of Kings, Jehovah Sabaoth would give us good judgment and reveal the deep dark secrets and ask Him for wisdom to make the right decisions about trips and events orchestrated by Bob. We need to understand the difference between God’s agenda and Bob’s and not mix up the 2.
Bob’s frequent power grabs and his self-inflicted wounds have a way of trickling down to those under him all over, and when he doubles down and gets deeper into the dark abyss of nefarium instead of repenting it becomes double down on trickle down and it really stinks. Damn your Moses Model Bob.
People please find a church with an anointed pastor who doesn’t get sick so often – due to unconfessed sin – and who is willing to have real accountability or to step aside and get help.
A good rule of thumb for those abused by CC pastors is that God (the perfect gentleman) will not use your abuser or anyone/anything he touches to make you whole again or to minister to you any even if such a pastor sought help and is rehabilitated.
“People please find a church with an anointed pastor who doesn’t get sick so often – due to unconfessed sin – and who is willing to have real accountability or to step aside and get help.”
Yes indeed. I’d rather be Broke and Healthy than rich and sickly. What good is all that money if your health won’t permit you to stick aournd long enough to enjoy it?
But frankly I’d rather have Jesus…
Than to be the king of a vast domain
Or be held in sin’s dread sway.
I’d rather have Jesus than anything
This world affords today.
I’d rather have Jesus than silver or gold;
I’d rather be His than have riches untold:
I’d rather have Jesus than houses or lands.
I’d rather be led by His nail-pierced hand
Than to be the king of a vast domain
Or be held in sin’s dread sway.
I’d rather have Jesus than anything
This world affords today.
I’d rather have Jesus than men’s applause;
I rather be faithful to His dear cause;
I’d rather have Jesus than worldwide fame.
I’d rather be true to His holy name.
Than to be the king of a vast domain
Or be held in sin’s dread sway.
I’d rather have Jesus than anything
This world affords today.
He’s fairer than lilies of rarest bloom;
He’s sweeter than honey from out the comb;
He’s all than my hungering spirit needs.
I’d rather have Jesus and let Him lead
Than to be the king of a vast domain
Or be held in sin’s dread sway.
I’d rather have Jesus than anything
This world affords today
Composer Mrs. Rhea F. Miller, Music Mr. George Beverly Shea
< < < < < < <
First create a page like this about YOURSELF and have people post comments and facts about YOU.
Norman S:
And biblically speaking, your point is?
this is one reason why i sometimes feel so ashamed to say im a Christian coz we Christians like to bash each other, nit pick and loves to compare church. we are so loud of how we are so righteous and non believers laugh at us and criticize us and our SAvior Jesus. i will pray for you all. please let’s find a way for us all followers of Jesus to unite.
Lord Help us all. I open my daily devotional site this morning to find the enemy all over it ,can this people see it the more you nurture their argument the longer will go on , I dont listen to Bob just for Bob althou his testimony relay to me and a lot others in the church he is not perfect and those looking for perfection are looking in the wrong place, go to another church if you dont like ours thats why you have choices but remenber there its only one way to be safe and that its thru Jesus and the bible teaching. The Lord knows exactly what Bob its doing or not and only He will judge him.
ana marzan-
The bible does say we are to judge those inside the church and to let one prophesy and the others judge.
When Bob Coy openly speaks and markets to the church at large we are suppose to openly discuss what he says and does, e.g. he promotes contemplative bands like Gungor and we should test whether that is a good thing to do; the bible says to test the spirits because not every spirit is of God.
If you hadn’t made this website you know that God would have dealt with Bob Coy (if he actually DOES need any “dealin with”) far greater than this website could “hurt” him right? Wow this is sad, really really sad, you have nothing better to do than bash a man of God and accuse him of wrong-doing with no proof at all? The Miami sun is bright enough to shine in every nook and cranny of your darkness, WWJD?? He would not have made this website he would love his enemies, bless those who cursed him and he wouldn’t be wasting time on a website like this. Why don’t you go to the beach, bond with your family, take a drive through A1A and look at the beautiful beaches God has made..spread the word of God to blind people who haven’t opened their eyes yet? This website is a work of satan. May you find the peace that only God can give you.
465, 466, 468 … and counting …
Just how much do you get paid to post this stuff in defense of Bob? What is the title Bob gave you when he hired you or tasked you with this job?
Does anyone know how many people Bob has manning this site alone?
What is sad and even sickening is that the means to find truth on the true nature of CCFTL leaders has been given on this thread!!! The case of Rodger Allen Thomas and information on how to obtain facts on how CCFTL treated his victim has been highlighted. There are court documents and newspaper articles available that anyone with a computer can obtain that show that when the victim sued CCFTL the original judge was a dye-in- the-wool Calvaryite. There is no doubt whatsoever about that! The victim lost the suit against CCFTL even though at the time of the abuse Rodger Allen Thomas was an employee and attendeee there and even though he adopted her through the CCFTL associated foster care program and even though some of the abuse took place on CCFTL property and a host of other mitigating circumstances that in another setting could very well have brought a judgment against CCFTL but in a setting where the judge was actually a Calvaryite how could that young girl obtain any justice?
That question is heartbreaking especially in light of the fact that even though the original judge died the victim still could not win on appeal! How much power does CCFTL have? What even adds insult to injury is the fact that the last court document filed looks like the victim ended up having to pay certain legal fees that CCFTL accrued in the case!!! I am sickened by everyone coming on here stating that there is no evidence of corruption at CCFTL because the court documents available through the Broward Official Court Documents site and information published about the case in newspaper articles (that are only a search engine away), paint a different picture. I could go on with more information that can be obtained publically about other evidence of corruption at CCFTL, but to everyone coming on here stating that there is no evidence, start with the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and imagine someone you love going through what he put his victim through and what CCFTL’s part in it and response to it was.
God is infinitely moved by how the “least of these” is treated….even if CC and its supporters are not.
It appears that they don’t see it because they don’t want to.
What do you suppose they would lose if they did open their eyes and recognize this truth?
The need to be right?
Loss of their reputation amongst CCites?
Loss of their income?
Loss of their position?
Loss of their ability to climb the CC corporate ladder?
Loss of their self-perceived righteousness?
Loss of the leaders opinion of them?
Loss of their ability to sit comfortably in their church and not be bothered?
I have seen this over and over and over.
I spoke with a CC leader the other day. This person cannot afford to even take one honest look at the corruption under his nose because it would cost him and his family far too much. It’s very important to him that their choice of churches, their full involvement, is in a “good” church. He must be right. He will say black is white as long as it takes so he can be right.
Religion is big business and they are protecting their bottomline. These are men who cannot make it in any setting with people of true integrity and character so they have to ignore anything that could potentially keep them awake at night. There have been some comments on here that suggest that people have specific information on cyberstalking taking place at CCFTL or by its leaders. I do not personally know if this true. If it is and anyone has specifics please report them to the FBI because this is actually a federal crime. Go to the FBI website and in their contact tab you can submit a tip. With this type of crime though you need details like the names of who they did it to so the FBI can investigate. If you know of illegal activity of any kind report it. Since we are seeing that the local authorities have strong ties to CC, go above the local authorities. Eventually someone will listen and investigate and the same way pedophiles and child molesters have been uncovered all the other wickedness they are part of will be revealed. Rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil.
I was convicted and sent to prison when I was 19 for the term of 40 years, of which I spent 20 years confined to prison. I can say emphatically that our spirit is stronger than anything we face and there is always a means of escape for those who believe. I am not one of those people that will preach to you anything other than the importance of your smile, however when you are lost do you really care who or how you are found. I got out of prison after 20 years and it was almost as if I stepped out of a time machine. The thing that really perplexes me the most is how dark the world has become. People have become so self absorbed that they really care about nothing other than themselves, being that 66% of Americans are obese they really don’t care even themselves that much. Complain that a politician will make $256,000 for the rest of his life after he serves only one term and saves no one and does nothing. God doesn’t care who or how we come before him and even at 5% Pastor Bob Coy brings a great many to the throne. I know the importance in hearing a powerful message and the sound of laughter more so than most. It allowed me to channel my energy to create positive results and can say that I am blessed beyond measure. You can not expect positive things when all you are connected to is negative. I have been given blessing after blessing and now devote my life to helping troubles teens. I know that god has shaped me to impact others life and every time that I have a chance to speak at schools or one on one consoling I am left feeling like I am the richest man on the planet. You have to go through the thorns to get to the throne……. Use some of the energy that you have negatively exerted give back and do something positive. Together Humanity Unites Greater is a non profit with the greatest investment we will ever have in mind…our children. t-h-u-g.org it is what we do between the dashes
Please review the Rodger Allen Thomas case and the court documents which you can access through Broward Official Records and newspaper articles about the incident (which you can search for in about 15 minutes!) Please make note of the fact that the court documents reveal the name of the judge presiding over the victim’s initial lawsuit against CCFTL and newspaper articles reveal that that judge was not just a seat-warming Calvaryite but she was so heavily involved that she taught adult education classes there! When you are done reviewing please ask yourself if the victim even had the smallest hope of a ruling in her favor? Then last but not least ask yourself how you would feel if someone you loved was forced to experience all that victim did? There is so much that CC does “between the dashes” that is sickening to even speak about out loud. In about 30 minutes total you can get some insight into one such “between the dashes” incident.
Michale Justice, perhaps you were blessed to be in that “time machine” for the time you were there since you came out with excellent grammar and you express yourself a lot like some CC pastors I can think of….hmm. However please remember that New Age and Scientology and mystical religions teach people how to “channel…energy to create positive results”. Some times they have rehabilitative effects as well but what do they rehabilitate their followers to?
If you still cannot see corruption or the fact that God is not pleased about corruption after doing the 30 minutes worth of research I asked and praying about what you read, then you truly need to ask yourself who this “God …who…doesn’t care who or how we come before him” is that you are serving…it may not be the God of the Bible! Additionally do you realize that the anti-Christ will try to make the world see that “Together Humanity Unites Greater” by forming a one world government? You should know this since CC is pretty passionate about the end times…instead of having any true passion for justice or truth.
Sniff, sniff, sniff … I’m not sure 473 passes the smell test?
Someone who has been confined for 20 years would have a greater sense of justice, and wanting the abusers stopped … imo.
Someone who is wanting to follow God’s will, would read in Timothy, and elsewhere, the need to call unrepentant leaders to account and warn the church in order to obey what God has told us to do. To protect the believers was a value that the Apostle Paul conveyed to the elders at Ephesus.
If by any chance you are real, Michael Justice, then I respectfully ask you to not judge what we are doing in our lives that are not plastered across the blog. I know what I do and I know what some on here, whom I know in person, are doing. Believe me, there is a great deal of energy being given in reaching out to others.
I work in the inner city with kids who’ve been to jail. The others may not want to lose their rewards by bragging about what they do on here to help you not judge, when you don’t have the facts.
Just seems there are people posting here who for some reason sound like people who are trying to present a story as if it were true to make a point they wish they could make.
It’s hard to buy.
he speaks the word how it was meant to be spoken, i am now born again and attend CCFL.
Cass have you done the 30 minutes worth of research into the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and his victim and her lawsuit against CCFTL and the judge who failed to recuse herself although she taught Bible classes at CCFTL? I noticed that you did not comment at all about that. Do you think any of the treatment of that victim reflects the actions of people who are “born again”? If you do, sadly I fear that your idea of being “born again” is not the one Jesus presented to Nicodemus (where Jesus warns him also about men who do not come to the light because their deeds are evil), but some twisted version that you have been spoon fed by people whose only true interest in humanity is the control they can exercise over the weak….so that they can gain an income freely given by cult followers….without any need for collection buckets even….the brainwashed just give and give and give, taking no account of the fact that their money is being used to fund people who further victimize victims!
It seems that God has really used Pastor Bob and his Church in the past. In watching Pastor Bob over the last 10 years, he has gotten more prideful and talks down to his congregation. He has been a gifted evangelist but his teaching depends more on humor than substance as the years go on. He gets angry in the pulpit when people may have critical views and he constantly tells people not to email him as he shares his various opinions. There is a lot less Bible than their used to be.I have heard rumblings of staff division and departures and have heard of a very strong controlling environment that is increasingly growing with more and more YES men. If you do not agree with him or his staff, you are criticized and demeaned. It seems to be on the verge of abusive control and manipulation. After some negative experiences, I left over a year ago. a concerned observer.
My testimony is that in a very low time of my life CCFTL showed me love and acceptance. It was the first church I went to that I felt I could be me and fit in. Ive made lots of friends there and still have those friends till this day. They have lots of bible study’s and groups to get plugged in to learn and be discipled. I read this blog Saturday night and went I went to church Sunday morning I was blessed by the word of God. Pastor Bob speaks the truth in love. They have many gifted teachers. Ive been going for 5 years off and on now and it hasnt been perfect and Ive had my issues but all in all Ive been blessed and been going in the right direction. I havent meet a church that has been perfect but I know the word of God is preached at this church and thats why I go.
Jeremy,
Thank you for sharing your experience with CCFL. I would hope that by visiting this site, you will be prompted to read more through the various pages and topics to educate yourself on the problems and issues that have been found common throughout all of the CC due to the Moses Model. You say you have been attending for 5 years and there has been some issues, however, in my understanding, not any that would prompt you to dig a little deeper into why these issues exists. You also states that CCFL teaches the word of God and that you have grown alot. If this true, which I have no doubt that at some level it is, because that is the way the Holy Spirit operates within you, then I must also ask you how is that you would not also address these issues that you may have with CCFL?
Is it because you do not want to rock the boat, or cause divisions, or have someone put you on the spot in questioning your spiritual maturity or perhaps, you are just comfortable in just listening to the studies and music and hanging out loosely with your friends. And that’s is cool with you. But is it cool with God, Jeremy. Is there something more that you need to know about the inner workings of Calvary Chapel and is there more that God wants you to be aware of that goes beyond hanging out and making friends?
I would invite, encourage, and exhort you to stay awhile longer on this site, because Jeremy, there is alot more to Calvary Chapel than you think and as a Christian and a good steward of what God has given you, it would be to your benefit to find out more about these things. What more can I say except to encourage to stand by those who are your brother and sisters in the Lord to fight against church abuse and corruption. But in order to do this, Jeremy, you need to be better informed than you are by sitting in the pew and making friends but going to to a church that has no accountability to those who tithe, donate and or attends.
Jeremy,
Thank you for sharing your experience with CCFL. I would hope that by visiting this site, you will be prompted to read more through the various pages and topics to educate yourself on the problems and issues that have been found common throughout all of the CC due to the Moses Model. You say you have been attending for 5 years and there has been some issues, however, in my understanding, not any that would prompt you to dig a little deeper into why these issues exists. You also states that CCFL teaches the word of God and that you have grown alot. If this true, which I have no doubt that at some level it is, because that is the way the Holy Spirit operates within you, then I must also ask you how is that you would not also address these issues that you may have with CCFL?
Is it because you do not want to rock the boat, or cause divisions, or have someone put you on the spot in questioning your spiritual maturity or perhaps, you are just comfortable in just listening to the studies and music and hanging out loosely with your friends. And that’s is cool with you. But is it cool with God, Jeremy. Is there something more that you need to know about the inner workings of Calvary Chapel and is there more that God wants you to be aware of that goes beyond hanging out and making friends?
I would invite, encourage, and exhort you to stay awhile longer on this site, because Jeremy, there is alot more to Calvary Chapel than you think and as a Christian and a good steward of what God has given you, it would be to your benefit to find out more about these things. What more can I say except to encourage to stand by those who are your brother and sisters in the Lord to fight against church abuse and corruption. But in order to do this, Jeremy, you need to be better informed than you are by sitting in the pew and making friends but going to to a church that has no accountability to those who tithe, donate and or attends. As for the word being preached, are you sure? For if the Mose’ Model is not biblical, then all other interpretations can be off base, as well.
Moderator, please delete comment @ 481. Thank you. it’s duplicate of 482.
Big win for justice and truth today with the judge’s fair tentative ruling concerning Bob Grenier’s lawsuit against Alex and Tim. We can only pray that this justice and truth continues nationwide and any corrupt influence of places like CCFTL on legal outcomes is overturned. In the case of Rodger Allen Thomas’ victim for instance where CCFTL was sued because Rodger Allen Thomas was an employee at the time of the sexual abuse and he adopted the victim through their foster program and according to court documents some of the abuse happened on CCFTL’s property during school hours since the victim also attended school there and Rodger Allen Thomas would visit her, is there no judge willing to overturn the original ruling in favor CCFTL by the now deceased CCFTL attendee and strong supporter Judge Aleman who failed to recuse herself although she was heavily involved at CCFTL? Even on appeal the victim could not win! Is there no judge who can bring justice and truth to this case?
I have attended ccfl since 1998. I have been a Christian since 1973 having accepted Christ in a Baptist church in New England. I have also fellowshipped in the evangelical free church denomination for approximately 10 years also in New England. I have taught numerous bible studies and adult Sunday Scool classes for many years in New England I find ccfl to be a great church and Pastor Bob Coy to teach very good biblical messages. I have made many fine friends at ccfl and have seen our LORD use the ministry of ccfl to minister to many people and change lives. I do not personally know Pastor Bob but I am shocked at the venom being spewed at him and the church. I am and will be open minded having read these many comments but my experience has been wonderful.
Joe is it only important to you that your experience is wonderful? What about the experiences other people have had? You may not care about things that people don’t have any proof for, but what about the case of Rodger Allen Thomas’ victim and the fact that when she sued CCFTL the judge in the case was heavily involved at CCFTL and the judgment was in CCFTL’s favor. Does that seem like justice to you? Do you understand that the world will know that those who claim to know Him are His disciples by our love one for another? It isn’t in what people say but in what they do. If you were a victim of abuse at the hands of a CC employee and you sought justice, how would you feel knowing that the judge was involved at CC yet failed to recuse herself? Does that seem even remotely fair to you? Joe be objective and read comment 420 which explains how you can verify what I am saying by going to the court documents and how you can find actual newspaper articles online. In about 30 minutes you will have an example that shows that this thread is necessary. The whole situation is ugly.
He’s just like the others promoting hate & patriarchy.
My family adores Pastor Bob and the Calvery Ministries Fort Lauderdale. Our only complaint is that their is only one Pastor Bob to go around, and that’s not hardly enough. He is truly gifted and brings the gospel to life to all that hears his message. He is warm, welcoming & sincere & has a style of teaching that makes learning the gospel so easy, & for that, weare so
Marcie, I am waiting for one person to address the issue of the lawsuit that Rodger Allen Thomas’ victim brought against CCFTL and to comment on the fact that the original judge failed to recuse herself even though she attended CCFTL and was heavily involved there and all the other ugly aspects of that case! Thirty minutes worth of looking at newspaper articles and the official court documents for the case should be more than enough for someone to come to this thread and comment about how on earth this case even remotely reflects the Gospel! Please refer to comment 420 on this threas. Everything about the case is ugly but the case of James Joseph Gould from CCFTL’s early days is ugly as well. No one has anything to say about that either! But then again it all fits in with the CC nationwide trend of ugly stories of men in leadership positions or employed by CC whose lives did everything but display the Gospel with respect to how innocent children were abused by them! A lack of true godly accountability has been highlighted as a factor in this issue. Pedophilia is nothing to adore and its prevalence in CC nationwide strongly indicates that something is deeply wrong! No one can ever convince me that an organization where the true Gospel is being taught would see such an issue repeated as prevalently nationwide! The true Gospel changes lives, it does not only satisfy itching ears! The true Gospel leads to adoration of Jesus and Jesus alone and not to adoration of man. There are many people on here who passed through the CC system nationwide learning a “gospel” which did not lead to a sustained faith in Christ. There are people who have “fallen away” after being disappointed by men who taught them another “gospel”. The true Gospel leads people to salvation that cannot be shaken when they are let down by their human heroes because it is centered on Jesus and focuses eyes on Him and not on men and Jesus is always good. Marcie perhaps you are too enthralled in adoration to objectively look at the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and to recognize the flaws in how your human heroes dealt with his victim, but perhaps in time you will see that God alone is to be worshipped and adored!
Marcie, I am waiting for one person to address the issue of the lawsuit that Rodger Allen Thomas’ victim brought against CCFTL and to comment on the fact that the original judge failed to recuse herself even though she attended CCFTL and was heavily involved there and all the other ugly aspects of that case! Thirty minutes worth of looking at newspaper articles and the official court documents for the case should be more than enough for someone to come to this thread and comment about how on earth this case even remotely reflects the Gospel! Please refer to comment 420 on this threas. Everything about the case is ugly but the case of James Joseph Gould from CCFTL’s early days is ugly as well. No one has anything to say about that either! But then again it all fits in with the CC nationwide trend of ugly stories of men in leadership positions or employed by CC whose lives did everything but display the Gospel with respect to how innocent children were abused by them! A lack of true godly accountability has been highlighted as a factor in this issue. Pedophilia is nothing to adore and its prevalence in CC nationwide strongly indicates that something is deeply wrong! No one can ever convince me that an organization where the true Gospel is being taught would see such an issue repeated as prevalently nationwide! The true Gospel changes lives, it does not only satisfy itching ears! The true Gospel leads to adoration of Jesus and Jesus alone and not to adoration of man. There are many people on here who passed through the CC system nationwide learning a “gospel” which did not lead to a sustained faith in Christ. There are people who have “fallen away” after being disappointed by men who taught them another “gospel”. The true Gospel leads people to true salvation that cannot be shaken when they are let down by their human heroes because it is centered on Jesus and focuses eyes on Him and not on men and Jesus is always good. Marcie perhaps you are too enthralled in adoration to objectively look at the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and to recognize the flaws in how your human heroes dealt with his victim, but perhaps in time you will see that God alone is to be worshipped and adored!
Scary @ 490:
“I am waiting for one person to address the issue of the lawsuit that Rodger Allen Thomas’ victim brought against CCFTL and to comment on the fact that the original judge failed to recuse herself even though she attended CCFTL and was heavily involved there and all the other ugly aspects of that case! Thirty minutes worth of looking at newspaper articles and the official court documents for the case should be more than enough for someone to come to this thread and comment about how on earth this case even remotely reflects the Gospel!”
The case does not reflect the Gospel of Jesus Christ which Bob Coy claims to preach week after week without being challenged by anyone as to his “spiritual standing”. As a practicing Christian I apologize for the mockery made. I know how crucial a fair trial requires the participation of an impartial judge because the cold neutrality of an impartial judge is a litigant’s right to total impartiality, particularly in criminal cases.
A judge who has grounds to recuse himself/herself is expected to do so. Judges who fail to recuse themselves may be subject to sactions, which vary by jurisdiction but not by religious, denominational, church, party or calss affiliation.
Florida case law is well settled that once a trial judge has recused himself/herself, further
orders of that recused judge become void and without effect. The case that comes to mind goes back to when Bob Butterworth was Florida’s AG (Meaweather v. State, 732 So. 2d 499 (1st DCA May 27, 1999).
Scary @ 470:
“That question is heartbreaking especially in light of the fact that even though the original judge died the victim still could not win on appeal! How much power does CCFTL have? What even adds insult to injury is the fact that the last court document filed looks like the victim ended up having to pay certain legal fees that CCFTL accrued in the case!!!
Therefore, it stands to reason that if an appellate court identifies a judgment rendered when the judge in question should have been recused, it would set aside the judgment and return the case for retrial…even if no one objects to the judgment to be set aside.
And if the case is returned for retrial, who should pay for the trial? CCFTL, Bob Coy or his
attorneys who empowered him? Or did Bob Coy empower them given the tremendous influence he has and wields over law enforcement in South Florida, in particular Broward County where CCFTL is located and the crime scene?
Major message from a Minor prophet:
Habakkuk 2:12 (NIV):
Woe to him who builds a [church] with bloodshed and establishes a [ministry] by injustice.
i don,t understand what do you have against calvary chapel,i started worship GOD at calvary chapel 2 years ago,for me is the best church to worship GOD,my opinion to pastor Bob Coy he is the best pastor i have seen,please man forgot the bad things happens with you at the past,forgive the people who hurt you, and the HOLLY SPIRIT of GOD will be inside of you,but now i only see darkness inside you,hate,madness,i,ve been a christian since i was a kid,all my life i respect GOD and follow He as my savior and my father,i don,t know you,but GOD will never be inside of you if you keep going with this,be the light and not th darkness,you will be in my prayers,forgive is the only opcion for you at this moment,GOD bless you.
Pastor Bob will always be my dear pastor, by his ministry I meet God and he saved my life!!! Got out of drugs and much more, I did serve on Calvary under his leadership and I love him, man of God!!!
In 1994, as per archives newspaper reports: in the early beginnings of CCFTL while the church was still at the Gateway Drive location, a youth pastor there by the name of James Joseph Gould was arrested at a mall where police said he had sexually assaulted an 8 year old boy. Also according to archived newspaper reports James Joseph Gould was found guilty of this offense however his lawyer was able to get him house arrest and probation only!
This result caused one newspaper reporter to write an article entitled “Compassion Can Stretch Only So Far”. The sex offender website reveals that this man no longer lives in the US and no newspaper report indicates how long he continued at CCFTL after the conviction but only that he worked as an adminstator there after. That was a long time ago….but it happened. The question is this: How does a pastor commit such a crime? Well that question has no doubt been asked over and over and over in CC nationwide. Is there any incident in the Bible at all that indicates that pedophilia is part of what it means to born again? Is there any indication at all in the Bible that if someone has been convicted of pedophilia while claiming to be Christian to the extent that they were a youth pastor that a “church” should “restore” them and hire them as an administrator?
Do we have any biblical story at all of someone like John or Peter or Paul or Timothy or any other leader in God’s Church committing such an act and then continuing as if nothing happened? No we don’t. There is no such story. Instead the Bible tells us that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. James Joseph Gould was perhaps the first public example of bad fruit at CCFTL indicating that they were a bad tree but he wasn’t the last. We could talk about newspaper articles of CCFTL’s past connections to WJMK and what that spoke of in terms of associations with people with questionable business integrity, but instead perhaps once again the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and their treatment of his victim should once again be mentioned and people should be begged once again to spend 30 minutes researching the facts of this case. They are scary. They would be scary if CCFTL was not claiming to be part of God’s work! They would be scary if it was viewed as a “secular” organization!
According to newspaper reports and the official court documents on file: Rodger Allen Thomas was an employee at CCFTL and adopted his victim through CCFTL’s affiliated foster care program. He molested her and she made claims that some of the molestation happened on CCFTL property where Rodger Allen Thomas worked and attended church and where she went to school. But I think what is scariest of all from the information found in the newspaper articles and court documents is the fact that when the victim sued CCFTL the initial and now deceased judge in the case, not only attended CCFTL but taught “classes” there! That judge failed to recuse herself and the verdict was in favor of CCFTL and not the victim. What is even scarier is the fact that even on appeal with a new judge after that judge’s death, the victim could not win and the last set of court documents indicate that a judgment was issued against her saying that she would have to pay some of CCFTL legal fees!
How much worldly power does CCFTL have??? Is there any indication at all in the Bible that this type of thing could even possibly be seen in the early Church? There is none! First of all biblically: There is a TRUE CHANGED LIFE if someone is born again. Paul went from being the murderous Saul with tons of worldly power which he used to persecute Christians… to a loving, truthful apostle of Christ who loved the Church so much that he BEGGED them to look out for SAVAGE WOLVES! Paul’s conversion wasn’t an external facade. It was a TRUE CHANGE! There are no incidents of pedophilia or the support of pedophiles or revictimization of victims of pedophiles mentioned in the Word among “believers” because in the Bible Christians were truly Christians, hearing and living the TRUE GOSPEL….which brings change and the integrity of Christ! Yet not only at CCFTL but at CC nationwide pedophiles have been found among their “pastorate” and among their employees repeatedly! These are all people claiming to know Christ! Yet there is not a biblical example of someone truly knowing Christ and being able to commit such a heinous act! Bad trees….unconnected to the Vine=bad fruit!
Getting off of drugs and then turning to the worship of ungodly men is simply trading one demon for another,,,a bigger demon even! The house is swept but what fills it instead is the even scarier worship of man! God does not want us to worship men! God does not want us to worship anything or anyone else but Him! Cults encourage the worship of men to the extent that people cannot have any type of intelligent analysis of scary facts about them. Again and again and again and again people turn up on this thread who are incapable of simply looking at documented facts and making comments about those facts. That is scary! Thousands of people under blinding influence!
I believe that our concepts of “church” or “religion” in America add to the power of cults. None of this supported by the Bible! Where the American “church” conflicts with the Word of God the American “church” is wrong and the Bible is always right! When someone comes on here and truly can explain biblically and intelligently how the handling of the Rodger Allen Thomas case and his victim was godly or biblical or even ethical or integrous…then I will believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in them! But that is impossible because God deals with truth and the facts are so scary in that case that the only way for someone to make them seem less scary would be to twist the facts! All I see when I read any comments supporting CCFTL is demonic and very, very, very scary worship of men and I think of the outcome of other cults that were revealed in this nation in the past and I am scared for each person who exposes themselves to that!
In 1994, as per archives newspaper reports: in the early beginnings of CCFTL while the church was still at the Gateway Drive location, a youth pastor there by the name of James Joseph Gould was arrested at a mall where police said he had sexually assaulted an 8 year old boy. Also according to archived newspaper reports James Joseph Gould was found guilty of this offense however his lawyer was able to get him house arrest and probation only!
This result caused one newspaper reporter to write an article entitled “Compassion Can Stretch Only So Far”. The sex offender website reveals that this man no longer lives in the US and no newspaper report indicates how long he continued at CCFTL after the conviction but only that he worked as an adminstator there after. That was a long time ago….but it happened. The question is this: How does a pastor commit such a crime? Well that question has no doubt been asked over and over and over in CC nationwide. Is there any incident in the Bible at all that indicates that pedophilia is part of what it means to born again? Is there any indication at all in the Bible that if someone has been convicted of pedophilia while claiming to be Christian to the extent that they were a youth pastor that a “church” should “restore” them and hire them as an administrator?
Do we have any biblical story at all of someone like John or Peter or Paul or Timothy or any other leader in God’s Church committing such an act and then continuing as if nothing happened? No we don’t. There is no such story. Instead the Bible tells us that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. James Joseph Gould was perhaps the first public example of bad fruit at CCFTL indicating that they were a bad tree but he wasn’t the last. We could talk about newspaper articles of CCFTL’s past connections to WJMK and what that spoke of in terms of associations with people with questionable business integrity, but instead perhaps once again the case of Rodger Allen Thomas and their treatment of his victim should once again be mentioned and people should be begged once again to spend 30 minutes researching the facts of this case. They are scary. They would be scary if CCFTL was not claiming to be part of God’s work! They would be scary if it was viewed as a “secular” organization!
According to newspaper reports and the official court documents on file: Rodger Allen Thomas was an employee at CCFTL and adopted his victim through CCFTL’s affiliated foster care program. He molested her and she made claims that some of the molestation happened on CCFTL property where Rodger Allen Thomas worked and attended church and where she went to school. But I think what is scariest of all from the information found in the newspaper articles and court documents is the fact that when the victim sued CCFTL the initial and now deceased judge in the case, not only attended CCFTL but taught “classes” there! That judge failed to recuse herself and the verdict was in favor of CCFTL and not the victim. What is even scarier is the fact that even on appeal with a new judge after that judge’s death, the victim could not win and the last set of court documents indicate that a judgment was issued against her saying that she would have to pay some of CCFTL legal fees!
How much worldly power does CCFTL have??? Is there any indication at all in the Bible that this type of thing could even possibly be seen in the early Church? There is none! First of all biblically: There is a TRUE CHANGED LIFE if someone is born again. Paul went from being the murderous Saul with tons of worldly power which he used to persecute Christians… to a loving, truthful apostle of Christ who loved the Church so much that he BEGGED them to look out for SAVAGE WOLVES! Paul’s conversion wasn’t an external facade. It was a TRUE CHANGE! There are no incidents of pedophilia or the support of pedophiles or revictimization of victims of pedophiles mentioned in the Word among “believers” because in the Bible Christians were truly Christians, hearing and living the TRUE GOSPEL….which brings change and the integrity of Christ! Yet not only at CCFTL but at CC nationwide pedophiles have been found among their “pastorate” and among their employees repeatedly! These are all people claiming to know Christ! Yet there is not a biblical example of someone truly knowing Christ and being able to commit such a heinous act! Bad trees….unconnected to the Vine=bad fruit!
Getting off of drugs and then turning to the worship of ungodly men is simply trading one demon for another,,,a bigger demon even! The house is swept but what fills it instead is the even scarier worship of man! God does not want us to worship men! God does not want us to worship anything or anyone else but Him! Cults encourage the worship of men to the extent that people cannot have any type of intelligent analysis of scary facts about them. Again and again and again and again people turn up on this thread who are incapable of simply looking at documented facts and making comments about those facts. That is scary! Thousands of people under blinding influence!
I believe that our concepts of “church” or “religion” in America add to the power of cults. None of this supported by the Bible! Where the American “church” conflicts with the Word of God the American “church” is wrong and the Bible is always right! When someone comes on here and truly can explain biblically and intelligently how the handling of the Rodger Allen Thomas case and his victim was godly or biblical or even ethical or integrous…then I will believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in them! But that is impossible because God deals with truth and the facts are so scary in that case that the only way for someone to make them seem less scary would be to twist the facts! All I see when I read any comments supporting CCFTL is demonic and very, very, very scary worship of men and I think of the outcome of other cults that were revealed in this nation in the past and I am scared for each person who exposes themselves to that!
For anyone who is confused and thinks that there can ever be anything such as a biblically “best place to worship God”…that is one of those very, very very wrong concepts that do not match God’s Word at all! The worship of God is reflected by our lives and not where we turn up once or twice a week to sing a few songs and hear a few pleasant words about “Him”. Those lives, if truly changed by Him, are lived in the truth of who He is and who we are! That was one of the things that the Samaritan woman at the well had to come to terms with when she met Jesus. He knew her TRUE life and didn’t think the fact that she was worshipping on a mountain was impressive. The facade was meaningless! Even the fact that the Jews worshipped in Jerusalem was not what God was looking for…He was not impressed by that!
John 4:21-24
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
In spirit and in TRUTH….Just think: if the hour for worship in spirit and in TRUTH came over 2 thousand years ago and the Father was only seeking that and is still only seeking that…and not a facade… what does that say about “worship” that is done by people who do not have any evidence of the Spirit and who cannot hear or respond to TRUTH?