About Alex & CCA.com

 

Let me be very upfront…this blog is not primarily about healing…at least my participation anyway. I am not a pastor and do not possess the gift to help those who have been hurt by the Church. I have other gifts and am exercising those as I feel led. If you want help in healing go to http://spiritualsoundingboard.com and spend time with Julie Anne Smith. She has a real gift for helping people discuss the issues and she has resources linked on her site with help for the Spiritually Abused. Dee and Deb at The Wartburg Watch are sympathetic to the issues and cover some Spiritual Abuse stuff here: http://www.thewartburgwatch.com . I am hopeful there will be pastors with the proper “gifts” and the heart of a pastor who will come on here and help victims of abuse (if they feel led). That is not my calling. I am who I am, though there are many on this blog who are gifted in helping like Grateful, Linda Pappas (a licensed therapist), Tina Jenkins and so many other valuable voices who have experienced what you have and are coming out the other side.

This blog is about accountability and justice. Since Big Calvary likes to be a non-denomination denomination so Chuck Smith doesn’t have to pay for the misdeeds of corrupt jerks like Mike Kestler…then there needs to be a place where victims of other corrupt jerks like Bob Grenier can go to get help, blow the whistle on the abuse and corruption, and spread the word to warn the church per 1 Timothy 5.

I chose to focus first on Bob and CCV, as I am an expert and a witness and a victim in this terrible story. In the future we will tackle other abuse and corruption within Calvary Chapel.

If you have been a victim of Bob’s abuse and corruption, this is a safe place for you to share your story. Safe because we have the Constitution of the United States and the First Amendment as our protection. Bob has published a book, “A Common Miracle” and is a very public figure. Sarbanes Oxley (Federal Law) and California and other states have “Whistleblower” laws in place that protect individuals from “retaliation” by Non Profit organizations, including Churches.

Share what you believe is true. Sharing your name gives more credibility to your allegations. Don’t share if it isn’t true. Truth is your best legal defense. It is my best legal defense. You are entitled legally to give your opinion regarding public figures. If the matter you have experienced is criminal, report it to the proper authorities. If you make a direct accusation against a Calvary Chapel pastor…be willing to back it up with direct testimony and/or documentation. I may choose to moderate you if you make a wild allegation and won’t stand behind it and be willing to put your name behind it and/or provide documentation and/or other witnesses. This Blog is a form of New Media. I will protect anonymous sources under the same protections that a reporter would. However, I won’t go to battle with a weak allegation that you can’t back up. That is not responsible or ethical.

Am I bitter, vindictive and operating a hate campaign? No, I don’t believe so, but others are entitled to their opinion.

Have I judged myself while judging others? Yes, I have. I have confronted sin in my life and confessed and repented. It was extremely humbling, but good. Do I sin now? Yes, I do. But I am not a slave to the besetting sin I struggled with for years before coming to true salvation and repentance.

Am I a Calvinist or an Arminian? I don’t know. In applying man’s logos (man’s reason)…for which I have formal training…the Calvinist arguments make the most “sense”…however, the things of the Lord are Spiritual…and I do not presume to believe that man’s logos is capable of an absolute determination of “how” we are saved. I believe Salvation is a Miracle…and “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. IMO, we should preach the Gospel as if we are all Arminians…trust that God is Sovereign as if we are Calvinists…and let God sort it out.

Am I a “Calvary Chapel Hater”? No. I am literally a product of Calvary Chapel. My dad and step-dad both came up through the early days of CC. My mom was “saved” in a tent on the beaches of Costa Mesa in the early days. I lived with my mom and my brother on “The Land” near Eugene, Oregon in the Shiloh commune. I grew up in CC and rubbed shoulders with many of the “Big Guys” in SoCal over the years. I saw much from a raw “behind the scenes” perspective. Much I wish I hadn’t seen and experienced. I do not hate Calvary Chapel. I am saddened and sickened by the hypocrisy and the worldliness and the abuse and the corruption I’ve both seen and experienced first-hand. The “Moses Model” is a terrible form of Church Government, IMO. Good guys can operate under any system. Bad guys have too much “authority” in the current CC system…and they get away with too much abuse and corruption. CC is set up to protect the assets of CCCM. There is “affiliation” and a connection when it helps the cause…not so much when a bad guy does his thing. Accountability is left to the local level…which in many cases is nearly impossible, as the “rogue pastor” has so much control of the particular situation. Accountability and justice are good…good for the pastor in sin, good for the victims of abuse and corruption. Accountability and justice are Biblical.

I believe this site will help in bringing accountability and a form of justice for victims of abuse…that helps CC and the broader Church. Accountability helps people not to sin, when tempted. I know from personal experience in dealing with my own sin. Often, when we think we can “get away with it” when tempted…it is easier to sin.

 Posted by at 4:42 am

  132 Responses to “About Alex & CCA.com”

  1. Hello Alex,

    I’m not sure which CC you’re referring to as I haven’t read the entire blog. However you did mention Mike Kesslet and your readers should know he is not part of the Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship. I know this because CC Twin Falls owned several radio stations within the Calvary Satellite Network. These were split between Costa Mesa and Twin Falls in a settlement after CC Twin Falls left the CCOF because of allegations about Kessler (I don’t know all of the details).

    I’ve seen in our own church, several people brought before the body with a clear explanation of what they had done and the process church leadership went through to restore them. Those have been very painful episodes as many of those people are trusted friends and associates of other people in their churches. However, in our own fellowship I’ve seen the process as scriptural and at a point where it becomes public, very painful for our pastor and his staff.

    Church abuse is not unique to Calvary Chapel and I would have to say no more severe than in many other churches that exercise scriptural church discipline. What makes it more visible and sometimes more “shocking” perhaps is that CC pastors have considerable authority and autonomy — by design. That is offset by a system of accountability to prevent pastors from continuing in sin or abuse. Like any man-made system, it doesn’t always work.

    I think having a “Calvary Chapel Recovery” blog is not a bad thing in and of itself. CCs are unique because of their approach to church government. But I do take issue with the implication such blogs make that abuse is pervasive or somehow different than in other churches.

    The “Toxic Church” as I have phrased it is toxic because people pursue man-made solutions and conventions — tearing apart families, focusing on social causes and so forth. I admire people (some of them friends) who accept a public humiliation of being “put out of the body” rather to admit their conduct is sinful when in their own conscience before God it is not. On the other hand, the process, if carried out scripturally is not “Calvary Chapel Abuse” — or even “Church Abuse” — it is being held accountable for one’s sin.

    If in your case (or the case of other readers) some form of church accountability or discipline is inappropriate or abusive, my thought is LEAVE THAT FELLOWSHIP. Leave before anything abusive can be done. However, before leaving, one should confront their own sin as you have — humbling themselves — and ask whether there is merit to whatever the church leadership may be doing. If one recognizes that leadership is acting in a scriptural manner, no matter how uncomfortable it is, we have an obligation scripturally to respect their authority.

    That last part may well be where Calvary Chapels can sometimes gall away. Leadership, like their flock, must always be submitted to the authority of scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. The respect of authority is a faithful companion to the respectful exercise of authority. If these two are divorced, there is no true authority IMO.

  2. Tony ~ I just read your comment and would like to encourage you to read through everything on this blog, especially regarding the abuse Alex and his brothers have survived at the hands of bob grenier. It will go into detail the extensive measures that Alex has attempted that are Biblically founded to have his dad answer the allegations of his own abuse and the documented abuse many others have experienced with bob. I won’t go into all the details here, as you can read about them yourself and see it goes so much deeper….

    God bless

  3. I always find the Bible to be my greatest help but I do like to read other good books as well. Let me share a few titles, and a quote.

    Some of you may be experiencing a crisis of faith because of the hardships you faced within an institutional church setting. This often leads to a deep questioning of our faith. We begin having feelings of doubt, and that unnerves us. I believe it is perfectly fine to explore this doubt because I also believe that God will never leave us in that state of mind. So here is a good book by a sound christian thinker. God in the Dark: The Assurance of Faith Beyond a Shadow of Doubt, Os Guinness.

    Another author I have grown to deeply respect is Eugene Peterson. He has written a series of books on practical theology (faith in practice). They are very readable. I am currently in: The Jesus Way. This is where the quote below will come from.

    The topic is ‘testing’ of faith. It is a little out of context so get the book.
    ” Our faith, all faith, everyone’s faith, needs testing. And we cannot be trusted to test ourselves. We are too full of self-interest and self-deceit. We are too devious in devising ways of cooking the books to document the evidence that serves our illusions. When we look at the track record of priests and temples, pastors and churches, missionaries and missions, it is obvious that religion in all its forms, including most emphatically Christianity, is a perpetual breeding ground for violence, abuse, superstition, war, discrimination, tyranny, and pride. Religion and spirituality is a bottomless pit breeding illusion, deceit, and oppression. So—testing.”

    Those are words from a seasoned pastor and Bible scholar. We are living at a time in the Western Church of great corruption of the truth of scripture. We continue to allow our own traditions and assumed practices to guide our spiritual conversations. We are a prideful people. We seem quite comfortable in our theological fortresses. We are in danger of collapsing from within. Only humility before the Lord of all Truth will bring restoration and clarity again. I hope we will volunteer to be corrected before a severe testing is needed to awaken all of us to the enemic faith we are displaying to the unbelieving world. And that admonition is directed toward our spiritual leaders first and foremost.

  4. Anyone heard from Alex? is he ok?

  5. He’s on PP daily. Maybe he’s taking a break from here. That’s good sometimes.

  6. Hanging in there all. Just needed a break from dealing with the Bob and CCV and CC situation. It’s been a spiritually, emotionally, mentally taxing issue to deal with and just needed some time away from it. I appreciate the concern.

  7. Things are awfully quiet around here, so time for some material from good old Dad:

    “I wish my brother would learn a trade, so I would know what kind of work he’s out of.”

    “She was at the beauty shop for two hours. That was only for the estimate. She got a mud-pack and looked great for two days. Then the mud fell off.”

  8. Are you this funny in real life, Jeff? Hey, I just got back from the ‘beauty shop’! They call it a ‘salon’ now!

  9. Tony, I appreciate your thoughtful post and agree with most of it. But, I do disagree that the abuse is not more prevalent in CC’s. By CC’s very design it is more likely to be abusive. There is a saying, ‘Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.’ I don’t care who you are or how close to God or how ‘spiritual’ you are, this saying is true and there needs to be safeguards set in place to guard this kind of thing I realize that man is sinful and we will always fight our flesh no matter what form of church government is in place. I’ve seen this too many times.

  10. I’ve read through some of the comments and it’s once again obvious, Calvary Chapel is an “unhealthy” form of government e.g. Church. I am a fomer CC pastor and grew up in So Cali. I used to attend the Saturday Night concerts in Costa Mesa with Randy Stonehill, etc… and attended SOM (if your from CC you’ll know what that is). Anyway, I am now recovering from an almost shipwrecked faith, after seeing first hand just how things are done. There are 2 sets of rule in CC. One they preach about and another that is applied (especially to the big guys e.g. the untouchables). It is true that there are exceptions (in a bad model good guys can still be good). But the problem is that the environment actually fosters “Authoritarianism”. I myself got caught up in it (I drank the cool-aid, repented and asked people for forgiveness). But trying to tell someone that they are decieved (well good luck – Ex: when was last time you agreed with someones critisim of you?). We are all deceived to a degree and most are unwilling to take an honest look at who we really are. Anyway, the problem with CC, like someone already pointed out is their form of Government. On another note: there are CC Pastors that in my “opinion” are guilty of some of the worst wrongs (not women, money, or anthing like this) but they are addicted to POWER. Power is very seductive and they have been seduced. And because of the model (don’t question the Pastor) they fall into the trap of “dont question the Pastor because he’s been put into this position by God e.g. Moses” and they become completely binded to their deception. It is difficult for me, mostly because I fear God, and also I’m aware of that I’m not the best judge of myself, therefore it is difficult to critizise these guys… but it needs to happen… it’s just not right what some of them are doing…. but some of them have so much power, good luck getting through… btw In my humble opinion, Dave Rolph is a good guy… not perfect… but he’s one of the good ones. I’ve met him personally and he has been around long enough that the kool aid wore off years ago…Dave cares…

  11. FormerCCPastor:

    Yes, I agree that many are addicted to Power. That is a very true observation, IMO.

    Bob certainly is…most of his CC pastor buddies are as well. They have been “anointed” by Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel and they believe they are untouchable…”don’t touch God’s anointed”.

    That Ethos can become very destructive and guys like my step-dad eat it up and get drunk on their “power” and authority (among other things, like pills).

    Dave Rolph may be a “good guy” and may be a good pastor who isn’t himself deeply sinful like several of his CC peers.

    However, here’s my beef with Rolph: There are several insiders who know what he knows and have reported that Rolph is privy to much bad stuff and has gone in and helped cover it up and make it go away. At some point, when there is a pattern of behavior, it is incumbent on guys like Rolph, IMO, to take a stand and do something disciplinary, rather than covering the stuff over and hushing it up.

    When does this principle ever apply?

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13

    For Bob, it applied all the time…he deemed anyone who challenged him or questioned him as “wicked” and “evildoers” and would expel them all the time…yet Bob is the one who is in sin and his sin is tolerated and protected.

    That’s one of the many problems with the CC construct. “Pastor Bob” is Judge and Jury at Calvary Chapel of Visalia. Pastor Raul Ries, Pastor Lance Cook, same deal. They are untouchable and they are the arbiters of who is and isn’t “wicked”…so they expel all those who try to hold them to account while their wicked ways continue…protected and enabled by CC.

    How can people “vote with your feet”…if they don’t know all the bad stuff that goes on? How can people exercise the only prescribed official CC communicated option for non-member lay-people in the form of “vote with your feet” if big guys in CC, like Rolph, go in and cover it all up?

    If you aren’t going to exercise Church Discipline, and “vote with your feet” is your solution to Victims and those with issues with regards to CC…then you better at minimum be honest and forthcoming when there is financial. sexual, and physical abuses, etc. that pop up in the Calvary Chapel Churches.

    I for one need to know if the Pastor I’m sitting under has Child Abuse, Sexual Assault, Sexual Harassment, Financial Scandal, Drug or Alcohol Abuse or any number of other allegations against them. CC is full of those abuses…and very very few sitting in the seats each and every week at CC’s know any of the stuff that’s out there. So, how are they going to cast an informed “vote” with their feet?

    Strip away the spin and it’s called LYING and fraud. And, the lack of Church Governance and lack of calling these Scoundrels within Calvary Chapel to account is negligence and denial of the Authority of Scripture with regard to Qualifications of a Pastor/Elder and with regards to the COMMAND to publicly rebuke them and deal with them when they persist in sin.

  12. I am so very sorry for the pain people have suffered. I was a Protestant for 27 years, the last 4-1/2 at a rural Calvary, so yes, I do understand somewhat. I am not going to name any names or tell any anecdotes. Along with eight others similarly situated, I have found my answer in the Roman Catholic Church. I am not protesting any more; I don’t need to. I have chosen the church Jesus Christ started over the one that Chuck Smith started. I have joined the ancient Church (at the age of 60), the authentic Church, full of beauty and truth, where people humbly seek the Lord. As I titled an article I’m working on, “My Heart Is Satisfied.” It is. There is so much Jesus in the Catholic Church! By the way, the number of 8 does not include children, so that would take the total higher. I don’t really want to start a Protestant/Catholic brawl but am telling you what my friends and I have found. I guess the local Calvary pastor is scratching his head, because on Oct. 31 last year he had Charlie Campbell, a Calvary “apologist”, come and speak on all that’s wrong with the Catholic Church. I thought the date was appropriate and am happy to report we got the 8th member of our group out of that. If anyone reading this is interested in this path, get off the internet and go to your local Catholic church and speak to the priest. There is an adult class for inquirers and aspiring Catholics, given every year for six months to a year. As C.S. Lewis once wrote, He is endless. Come and feed.

  13. Barbara,

    Charlie Campbell is a great apologist and I have his DVD on Jehovah Witnesses.

    Barbara-”I don’t really want to start a Protestant/Catholic brawl but am telling you what my friends and I have found.”

    If you want to dialogue on the subject, I am sure there are many who would entertain that, myself included.

  14. @Barbara, I personally believe that RCC (Roman Catholic Church) falls under orthodox Christianity. While I disagree with some of the doctrine, Theology and Traditions…I believe the RCC has the Foundational Truths and Essentials correct:

    1. God Is.
    2. We are not God.
    3. Jesus Christ is Messiah.
    4. Salvation is through Faith/Belief in Him.

    Like with any part of the catholic (little “c”) or universal church / body of Christ, the pews and pulpits are populated with sinners…of which I am chief.

  15. Admin-#4
    I believe that according to the RCC salvation is through the sacraments.

  16. 1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. the visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

  17. The only issue I have with the RCC is that that they instituted the collection plate process in the church ceremony and they also came up with that doctrine well where you buy stuff to shorten your time in purgatory. Mind you, I have no theological issues with those practices, but only am left with one, small questions. Why did 12 Jews turn their backs on the business? Maybe that’s the reason why Paul left Barnabas?

  18. @Hannah, I’ve discussed that particular issue with several RCC’ers (and EO and Lutherans for that matter).

    They believe the Sacraments are a physical “delivery” of Salvation and Grace, but not Salvation. They believe that “belief”/Faith is the only way to Salvation, that the Sacraments are a “means” of delivering that opportunity.

    Nuance.

    There are places where they state that Salvation is “found” in the Sacraments…they don’t mean that the Sacraments “are” the Salvation…and acknowledge that Jesus’s work on the Cross and our belief in Him as Messiah is Salvation….but rather that the Sacraments are another “delivery” of the Gospel, in a physical form.

  19. @Sheck, I want to be your Agent and your Promoter and put you out on the Circuit.

    We could hit all the CC’s and make some $$$, especially with your distinct Pedigrees. :smile:

    You are hilarious. :lol:

  20. @Sheck, re: the RCC…Luther didn’t like that too much either. Seems he “nailed” his grievances…to a door.

    Too bad ‘ol Luther was so hard on your People. Not good.

  21. Admin-

    “They believe the Sacraments are a physical “delivery” of Salvation and Grace, but not Salvation.”

    Does the Bible teach this? And are there 7 in the Bible?

  22. I could open for Charlie Campbell: His stuff is too cerebral for me anyways. Then I could do the customary close of service spiel like: “Charlie has many wonderful resources on cults, RCC, whether via books, CD’s or DVD’s…all located out front. Also, he has a fine selection of soups available as well.”

  23. Nobody “buys stuff to shorten their time in purgatory.” The only way is prayer. I know a lot of us have received a lot of misinformation about Catholicism in the past. The CC is the whipping boy for countless preachers who want to give their congregations an enemy, perhaps so they won’t look too closely at what is coming from the pulpit. How sad. As adults it is our responsibility to seek the truth. Before judging or thinking we know something, there are some great resources out there. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, “Catholicism For Dummies” (yes!) Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, Alex Jones, and especially Marcus Grodi. What I really wanted to do in writing in was get the Catholic Church on the screen for people’s consideration, because so often it is not on the screen of people’s thought. Frankly, I’m thrilled to have escaped the angst of Calvary and other such churches.

  24. Just realized I just used “CC” to designate the Catholic Church and that it is mostly used here to designate Calvary Chapel. Sorry for any misunderstanding!

  25. Barbara: I apologize as I did not mean to offend, nor to state theology in the RCC, but to add humor to my little missive. My wife was RCC and she has anumber of relatives who are saved RCC’s. In fact, we were married in the RCC in Hunt. Bch. Interesting ceremony as my family is either conservative or orthodox Jews, so the RCC expereince is, to say the least, interesting. We faced the father during the cermony, but it was a hoot when, forst, the responsorial psalms were read. Kind of like a steroe systesm with one of the speakers disconnected. Then the communion when people go to their knees left them wondering what to do…on one hand offended, on the other not desiring to fffend my wife and her family. They were all smiling when they left the church, not so much from appreciating the service or our marriage ceremony, but from getting out there.

  26. Barbara,

    Do you know what Novenas are?
    They are prayers for the dead.
    And purgatory is in the Catechism.
    I have it and I have read it.
    Havign said that, I know alot of Catholics who are saved and love the Lord.
    But the RCC teaches that if you believe you are saved you have committed the “sin of presumption”.

    Many other things..but I believe that the RCC has a reverence and respect that I rarely see in many other churches, especially the CC’s.

  27. Catechism of the Catholic Church
    2nd edition
    Section 2
    Chapter 3
    Article 12

    1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

  28. Hi Hannah! A novena is nine days of prayer for anything, not necessarily a deceased person, though it can be. Yes, I believe in purgatory, and in the communion of the saints, both of which are supported by Scripture, notably 2 Maccabees which is one of the Deuterocanonical Books removed from the Bible by Martin Luther. (And then we hear that Catholics have added to the Bible…) Purgatory: “Some will enter the Kingdom as by fire, though their works shall burn”–Corinthians. Also, we do not decide who is saved. That is for God alone to decide. “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” That is why we pray for final perseverance. We are also taught not to speculate about the motives of others, just love them and pray for them. I think this is very important. In addition to the Bible, we go by Sacred Tradition (as in when Paul tells Timothy not to neglect the oral tradition that has been communicated to him) and the Church itself, believing that it is an unbroken line from Jesus commissioning Peter, to the present day. Interestingly enough, within the Mass there is 4 to 5 times as much Bible, quoted with great reverence, as there is in the average Protestant church where the pastor will quote one verse of Scripture and spend the next hour and a half expounding his theories on it, as well as telling anecdotes from his personal life, and maybe even throwing in some jabs at other churches. This would never happen in a Catholic church. You are spot on in noting the great reverence for God that is in the Catholic Church. For that reason alone no one will ever pry me out of it. Try it, you might like it. I have to say I am a new Catholic and have neither the time or inclination for a Scripture-quoting exchange, much less a contest to be “right”, when none of us is right, only God. In my first post I listed some sources and hope you will make use of some of them., especially Marcus Grodi of the Coming Home Network. This is an especially good time to experience the Catholic Church as it is Lent and approaching Easter, which we treat with much love and reverence. Also, having nothing to do with “Protestant/Catholic”, may I suggest that everyone on this blog read “The Great Divorce” by C.S. Lewis. It is an awesome metaphor for what God is like and what people are like. It has nothing to do with divorce. It changed me. Peace be with you, Barbara

  29. Barbara,

    Sounds like a drive by to promote Catholicism.
    Since you don’t want an “exchange” of verses, though you seem to want to promote your own agenda..(and do not want anyone to challenge you)….Peace be with you.

  30. I’m not sufficiently familiar with the internet to know what a “drive by” is. My aim in posting was to share what I did about my unhappiness with Calvary, since that is what this site is about. Fine if you want to call that an agenda. I think we did our share of verse-exchanging anyway; it seems to come naturally. “Challenging” is another word for “arguing”, I’ve heard it so many times in Protestant churches, especially with young congregations, where it is presented as a high good. I don’t think it is. In the words of St. Maximilan Kolbe, “Love alone creates.” Look him up if you like; his life story is very “challenging.”

  31. Barbara, I’m more likely to find fault with the CC system than the RCC. I’ve been too close to way too many Catholics to bash them; elaborating on my connections might be too much of a tempting diversion initially. Unlike you, I have observed more Protestant bashing than Catholic bashing; I approve of neither.Suffice it to say that the RCC has always both fascinated and frustrated me. As a former Protestant, you may be uniquely equipped to answer sincere questions from Protestants.

    After studying the apocryphal books (and many of the pseudopegraphical books), I had a greater understanding of why Catholics believed differently than Protestants. I wanted to know why those “hidden books” were eschewed (and never even mentioned) by the mainline Protestant denomination I grew up in (NOT CC–that, unfortunately, came later). Unlike most of my Protestant counterparts, I’ve read these intertestamental books and enjoy reading them from time to time. I am, however, aware of their history and inconsistencies. I know that there are seeming inconsistencies in Scripture that both Catholics and Protestants consider canonical as well. A pastor I know who went to school with Billy Graham said, “Scripture is absolutely infallible, but the translations are not.” Well, maybe that’s a whole other story, and I’ve digressed.

    While the apocryphal books were generally accepted by the Alexandrian Jews, the Palestinian Jews generally rejected their canonicty. Some of the inconsistencies puzzle me, and I’d enjoy getting your or anyone else’s feedback on this. I don’t engage in ad hominem attacks, but I would like to explore the issues……

    In II Esdras 7: 102-105, Ezra asks the angel if on the day of judgment the just will be able to win pardon for the wicked. The angel tells Ezra that the intercessory prayers for the pardon of the lost dead are of no avail and that every individual is accountable for only his wickedness or righteousness. This passage seems to contradict Catholicism’s doctrine of intercessory prayer for the dead. While having been taugt that believing on Christ’s redeeming sacrifice on the cross was essential and sufficient for salvation, I wish the Catholics were right on the power of intercessory prayer for the dead as I know of many people that I would love to pray “out of” purgatory as such but can’t find Scripture to support it.

    I’ll continue this posting as I don’t know if this site “times out” after a certain point (?).

  32. Sincere (NOT designed as any kind of a put down to any Catholic/I am an honest seeker on this one.) Aprocryphal Questions Continued:

    II Esdras 9: 7 & 8 seem ambiguous to me in that the New English Bible trans. says that either good deeds OR faith can save a person. Is salvation an “either/or” or “both” proposition to Catholics?

    Tobit 12: 9 says “Almsgiving preserves a man from death and wipes out all sin.” How can giving to the poor or to the Church obliterate sin? Wouldn’t this bypass and contradict Christ’s sacrifice? Ecclesiasticus 3: 3 and 30 say that “respect for a father” and “almsgiving” atones for sin, respectively. Isn’t this adding to Jesus’s atonement?

    Wisdom of Solomon 3: 1-5 “But the souls of the just are in God’s hand, and torment shall not touch them. In the eyes of foolish men they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us as disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may be punished, they have a sure hope of immortality; AND AFTER A LITTLE CHASTISEMENT they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be his.” Could this be used as support of purgatory?

    Ecclesiasticus 7: 14 admonishes the faithful not to repeat oneself in prayer. Doesn’t this conflict with the repetition of Hail Mary’s and Our Father’s in the rosary?

    Ecclesiaticus 7: 33 says, “Do not withhold your kindness even when a man is dead.” This seems to support praying for the dead–at least indirectly?

    Ecclesiasticus 12: 7 really bothers me. It says, “Give to a good man, but never help a sinner.”

    Now here are a couple of gems that certain misogynistic CC pastors could learn to love:
    Ecclesiasticus 25: 26 “If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away.”
    and Ecclesiasticus 42:14 “Better a man’s wickedness than a woman’s goodness; it is
    woman who brings shame and disgrace.” That’s a verbatim quote!

    I haven’t tackled I and II Maccabees in ages, so I’ll leave the rest of it alone. There were a few other “ify” passages that I didn’t include. I included only the ones that really stood out, and I didn’t rely on any secondary source material. When I research something, I like to do primary source digging. Now, what I didn’t include were the many, many beautiful passages throughout the apocryphal books. There are lots!!! Only in regarding the apocryphal books, I’m almost like an Episcopalian insofar that I think much of it is fit for didactic purposes although I question its divine inspiration.

    Thanks for reading. I hope Barbara or someone else interested in this will respond.

  33. Hi Lone, you are obviously a scholar far more than I am. I am not going to answer you verse by verse because if I did I might come up with something that sounds good, but I would be just shooting from the hip and that would be very disrespectful to God. Also, this content does not fit with what this blog is: see the title, “Calvary Chapel Abuse.” In fact, I think whoever is in charge of this has been very kind and indulgent already.

    If you want quality answers, again I suggest that you go see a Catholic priest, who went to seminary for 10 years to prepare to be a priest, or get in touch (yes, online) with the Coming Home Network International. They are a fine apostolate and have a forum which might take up questions such as yours. Each of their forums is moderated by an established scholar with a track record. It is really a quality organization.

    Yes, there are translation issues. Yes, there are things that appear inconsistent even in that part of the Canon that Martin Luther let us keep. However, again, I only wrote into this blog to share how I resolved my problems at Calvary. If you think of the Catholic Church, think of one thing: REVERENCE FOR GOD. It fairly drips from the ceiling of the sanctuary. If that were all, that alone would be enough to keep me there. But that is not all. Again, “He is endless. Come and feed.”–C.S. Lewis

    I said in my first post that I am not going to name names or relate anecdotes from Calvary. I will only say that I got used to being treated a certain way, and when I was no longer being treated that way, it was hard at first to grasp this fact. I dealt with this by listening carefully. The Catholics I know don’t gossip, don’t manipulate, don’t control, and don’t one-up. I know it sounds too good to be true but it is true.

    God bless you very much and I wish you the very best in your searching.

  34. Thanks, this post was very helpful. I was kicked out of a Calvary Chapel Church about 2 years ago and called a witch that casts spells. But this post really helped a lot.
    And don’t worry, I’m not a witch, it’s a false nose :D

  35. I applaud you for this site. I am a product of Calvary Chapel/ mega church/ Bible college. I feel like I have been brainwashed in many ways. I know there are alot of great people that mean well in CC but personally I think there is way too little accountability. Most of the brainwashing hasn’t really come from main leaders but those within the church “discipling”. Friends/ family/ etc. But it makes me highly question why CC is producing such spiritually manipulative people. I also feel these mega churches are so hypocritical. Where is all the money going?? Why is it about money anyways?? Didn’t Jesus overturn those money changers tables?? He was obviously pissed about people making money off those seeking God. I think this whole Christian industry is walking on a very fine line. I’m not saying I know where the line should be drawn but I do know when I get a gut feeling that a pastor is way too into himself and the church is more like a business…

  36. I am sad that so many people feel it is necessary to write such things about CC pastors deviating from the original subject and creating a bash fest of unnecessary proportions. Frankly no one really knows what is going on except for God. Although CC does not teach total depravity – I agree with total depravity. I believe that God is above everything good and evil, that because of original sin, He sees in equality —> good and evil.
    There is God and then there is good and evil, and our faith alone brings us to the acceptable servitude of the Lord. There is no excuse for the sins of this pastor other than he is human, he is fallen, he has failed not from his actions, but he already failed the day he was born… In fact we all failed the simply by being born… Well Jesus never fails, love never fails seek this rather than a blog.

    Ask yourself this question, in trying to cope with the sins of others and their hurt towards you, are you building this site up in order to see some level of recompense for what happened to you? One thing I have observed in this life is that chances are: the other party admitting they’re wrong, the completeness of an ideal apology, the healing of the pain from the injury we’ve endured -these will usually never happen. We take the weeds and live among them, there is not round up weed spray for these proverbial devils among us. I question if Jesus quite literally meant ONLY Lucifer or demonic spirits (while I believe they are here) but the influences they have on all of us, meaning… I think the weeds ARE US too.

    Alex, I get what you’re going through, my Dad did similar things to me growing-up, all justifying them by scripture. However, there is no place to make a spectacle out of all of this; it creates an environment of malice. Yes forgiving and never speaking of it again seems silly. But we need to conjure up the real reason why it seems silly. Well, just forgiving and never speaking of it again seems silly, not because it is silly, but because true forgiveness includes this and SO MUCH more, forgetting it and never speaking of it again is the smallest element in the matter. I know it’s an extremity to do any of this, but think about the extremity of the cross. How small we are and yet God… I need not go on to how unnecessary God’s forgiveness was for us, for our unrelenting transgressions. Yes the perpetual sin we ALL live in everyday, pastor and not pastor, sins of commission and omission.. drunkards, liars, murderers, homosexuals, adulterers, the sexually immoral, the judger, the ______. We are ALL SIN… not human beings, human sinners. Never will we never not sin, this whole life is just that, SIN.

    I’m not saying to change your plans, but it’s how you’re going about it. Question the content in which you are handling your grievance, do you speak too much to the people and find yourself speaking less to God? Are you seeking justification from other people? Sounds like Job to me. Look how many chapters it took for him to finally receive justice, do you really want to go through that? In making this blog you’ve created a place for others to seek justification for themselves by justifying each other. We’re all justified already, through Christ Jesus, this is not the place for justification, the Cross at Calvary was and is that place.

    Remember all we knew after eating the fruit was good and evil, as was the name; the Tree-of-Knowledge-of-Good-and-Evil. Good and evil are equal in God’s eyes, every good deed you’ve ever done is seen in equality to every evil deed ever done. This was Jesus’ view when He looked down on us from the cross, for most of the time when we sin, we truly know not what we are doing.

    Seek God in this matter, not His fallen creation… and I guarantee your circumstances will change. Do not just nail sin to the cross; nail to the cross character flaws, pain, fear, anguish, sorrow, inadequacies, anger, vengeance, wrath and similar affectations that run rampant in this post… it’s all there on the cross, 2,011 years ago again, no need for it to be here.

  37. I’m guessing you haven’t actually read this blog through, Jeff.

  38. Wonderfully put Jeff. (9*13 Number 36.)
    I was looking for a way to relate to Alex that I understand, have lived through some very sad, abusive situations of my own. The first part of healing is to get past the harm done to us by others, realizing it is up to us now. It is no longer anyone else’s fault if we are not healing. I think Alex is trying very hard to get there, but is still lashing out at the original cause and not walking with Jesus close enough to forgive the way Jesus would. I am still working on my own hatreds, being unforgiving, and wanting something bad to happen to the bad people I despise.
    It is theraputic to pray for those that have wronged us, but more than that, it is Godly. When Jesus wanted to teach us to pray, he added ‘forgive our trespasses as we forgive those that have trespassed against us’.
    Bashing Calvary Chapel, Pastor Chuck Smith, or many who really have had nothing to do with your home life isn’t helping anyone.
    If your stepfather needs help, pray for him. I will too, I will be praying for you and yours too Alex. I am praying God will hold you and your wife and children close while he helps you through this.
    I am still not understanding why an abuse charge filed with the police could ever go beyond the time limitations. I would think they are the authorities that should be stepping in to investigate.
    Calvary Chapel and any Biblical group for that matter would have to be looking at whether this man has been forgiven and changed and possibly chosen by Our Lord and Saviour. What if he is and we harm the annointed. David would not touch King Saul, as he knew the king had previously been annointed. Trying to kill David for purely selfish reasons was not the actions you would put with an annointed person of God.
    Alex, I hope something happens to help your entire situation, with your Mom, your brothers, your stepfather. I will be praying for you, sincerely. I do care. I think you are wrong about Pastor Chuck and about Calvalry Chapel. I will continue to go to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, I love Sunday night Bible Study with Pastor Chuck. I was there when he spoke about this blog. That is why I looked you up.
    I will attend Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills again with Pastor Dave Rolph as I really enjoy the ministry there also.
    Be safe Alex, may God bless you tremendously.

  39. Renie, does it matter to you that Chuck Smith lied to you from the pulpit in that Sunday evening service and that that lie has hurt me, my wife and my family?

    Chuck did not call me, I called him, phone records prove it. Chuck completely misrepresented the entire emphasis and motivation of the call and conversation.

    It was not Chuck reaching out to me to make peace, I reached out to him to hear testimony about Bob Grenier who calls Chuck Smith his “Pastor” as Chuck Smith wrote the Foreword in Bob’s book which claims Chuck is his “Pastor”, Chuck takes the microphone at CC Visalia after being introduced as Bob’s “Pastor” etc etc.

    1 Timothy 5:19-22

    Chuck is wrong, he’s lying and he needs to repent…and I don’t think God is on the side of lying

    Proverbs 12:22

  40. Renie said, “It is theraputic to pray for those that have wronged us”

    I pray for the entire situation often. More times than I can count. I pray for the gift of repentance for Bob Grenier, as well.

  41. Renie said, “Bashing Calvary Chapel, Pastor Chuck Smith, or many who really have had nothing to do with your home life isn’t helping anyone.”

    “Bashing”…or telling the truth.

    Question: When Chuck Smith speaks out against Calvinists within Calvary Chapel at the recent Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor’s Conference…is that “Bashing”?

    Is it “Bashing” to report allegations from “2 or 3 witnesses” who are former insiders at CCCM, former staff, former CC Senior Pastors, former attendees, etc etc?

    Were Chuck’s words from the pulpit calling me and the blog “Vicious” and “Lies”…was that “Bashing”? The blog is not Lies and I don’t believe it is Vicious. I think it’s Vicious to lie about a lay-person and Abuse Survivor at the hands of one of his CC Pastors who he Anointed, etc.

    Calling Chuck Smith, Bob Grenier and others to Repentance isn’t “Helping” them if they are lying and in sin? That seems to conflict with the Bible “simply”. It also helps those hurt by their lying and irresponsibility and in Bob’s case, Spiritual Abuse, Physical Abuse, Molestation, Corruption etc.

  42. Renie said, “If your stepfather needs help, pray for him.”

    I do. I pray for his soul, for his Repentance and for others around him to be safe.

    Renie, if you know someone is still hurting people, do you “just” pray…or do you pray AND do something about it to stop the sinning behavior that hurts many others.

    James 4:17

  43. Renie said, “I am still not understanding why an abuse charge filed with the police could ever go beyond the time limitations. I would think they are the authorities that should be stepping in to investigate.”

    The term is called Statute of Limitations. I wish the Law were written differently, but it isn’t.

    Had the Calvary Chapel Board reported the Abuse that was confessed to them by Bob Grenier in 1988, there would have been an arrest. However, the Calvary Chapel Board covered up the confession Bob made of hitting my brother in the face, as the Calvary Chapel Board / Elders bought into the Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel argument laid out in the Distinctives and other documents, teachings and examples that tell the Boards and Elders that the Senior Pastor is Anointed and to be insulated and protected by the Board and Elders etc etc.

  44. Renie said, “David would not touch King Saul, as he knew the king had previously been annointed.”

    This is part of the cult-like Dynamic I am seeking to expose.

    Chuck Smith says, “I don’t want control, I don’t have control, I don’t want responsibility, I don’t have responsibility” etc etc etc. He claims he’s “never” intervened in CC Situations, which is a lie.

    Chuck Smith is the one who GRANTS the “anointing” of all these guys. Chuck Smith VALIDATES their “Anointing” by giving them the rights to use his Calvary Chapel name and logo….yet Chuck won’t take responsibility when they go off the rails. That’s wrong.

    “Anointing” is not a GET OUT OF JAIL FREE card for the abusers in Calvary Chapel. It is not an excuse to condone abusive and corrupt behavior and is not an excuse for Chuck Smith to lie and to dodge responsibility as Bob’s “Pastor”.

    The Bible says “Lying is an abomination to the Lord”…yet Chuck lies. The Bible says Elders/Pastors are to “rebuke them publicly” those fellow Elders/Pastors who remain in sin and not to take part in their sin…yet Chuck Smith speaks at CC Visalia, goes to Bob’s Conferences, speaks highly of him to this day (I have a facebook comment from a source from last week that Chuck had told a CCV attendee how highly he thought of Bob).

    Chuck has intervened many times over the years, though he denies it. I have multiple sources and irrefutable evidence of such.

    Chuck did not initiate our meeting, I have the phone records to prove it.

    Chuck has given $60 million dollars to his family members as part of the CSN Lawsuit Settlement according to sources.

    I have PILES of stuff…adultery issues by Big Names currently in the CC Camp, molestation issues, corruption, fraud, illegality, financial impropriety etc etc etc.

    Renie, we are called to Ephesians 5:11

    Sometimes “God’s Anointed” sin…and really really badly…and His “Anointing” to teach is not a Get out of Jail Free Card and not an excuse to tolerate abuse, adultery, corruption and sin in the Camp. That is entirely unScriptural and wrong. It goes against so much Scripture it would fill the page.

  45. Renie, what is the Fixation with Old Testament Constructs and Calvary Chapel?

    I thought you guys were Dispensationalists?

    Should we still avoid shellfish and stone our children to death if they are rebellious?

    The David / Saul example is so far out of context and the “Touch not God’s anointed” is so far out there and so abused to provide a defense for getting away with sin, lying and corruption…it’s just ridiculous.

  46. Renie said, “Alex, I hope something happens to help your entire situation, with your Mom, your brothers, your stepfather. I will be praying for you, sincerely. I do care. I think you are wrong about Pastor Chuck and about Calvalry Chapel. I will continue to go to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, I love Sunday night Bible Study with Pastor Chuck. I was there when he spoke about this blog. That is why I looked you up.
    I will attend Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills again with Pastor Dave Rolph as I really enjoy the ministry there also.”

    I think you’re sincere, just wrong. We can agree to disagree.

    I hope something happens, too: Confession, repentance and an attempt at reconciliation per Scripture.

    I hope Chuck repents from his lying and pride and dealing with this situation in such a bad manner. If he is truly “Anointed” I don’t think he’d be on the wrong side of this and I don’t think he’d be lying about so much.

    I hope you don’t end up on the wrong side of anyone in leadership at CCCM and I hope your children are safe there. There have been Statutory Rapes on the CCCM Campus by a CCCM Pastor who was known to have adutlery/womanizing issues but was fired and rehired by other CCCM Big Guys. Discernment and Accountability are in short supply over there.

  47. Renie, I think Tim Kosnoff and other attorneys are going to “Touch” Chuck and CCCM’s wallet…a lot.

    I think the “Anointed” Force-field is a mythology promoted by Chuck Smith that is incorrect. God does not give some sort of “Anointed” Diplomatic Immunity for when these guys don’t do what they’re supposed to do. Sometimes God is just very patient with them…but He “Chastens those He loves”….

  48. Alex,
    I don’t mind that we disagree on some things, and I don’t think we disagree on any thing really, we just are looking from different viewpoints.
    I am really very young in Christianity out side of the Catholic Church. I was raised in Catholocism, went to Catholic schools, etc. I went to Mass 6 days a week for 7 years, and had my religion classes 2-3 times a week. After that I was away from any church for many years. I have found Calvary Chapel to be very enlightening regarding the Bible and the Word of God. Being Catholic, I was not encouraged to read and learn the Bible.
    I love learning and finding meanings of Scripture as it is related to the cultural time I never understood before. That is what is incredible to me in reading the Old Testament.
    I am told to fully understand the New Testament you need to also understand the Old Testament. I am not sure that is fact, but it makes sense to me.
    I cannot be sure of all of the truths or untruths spoken by any one in any of this as I have not been present.
    But I know how abuse feels, I know how deeply being a child accused of things you didn’t do and have no way of defending yourself against cuts, and I know the feelings of fear and shame of sexual abuse by an adult when you are a child. I would take those feelings away from anyone who has ever had to deal with it if I could, but unfortunately I cannot. All I can do is the little bit I know to do. I can reach out in love, and not let you feel any judgement from me. I hope you never feel that from anyone anymore. There is only 1 Judge, and He loves us.
    I have never had a disagreement of any kind with a Calvary Chapel member or any part of the ministry. I wanted to go to the Bible College to learn more, but have not been able to yet.
    I agree with you that if a person were an ‘annointed’ that is not a get out of jail free card. I fully agree. What I was saying before was just one possibility I had to look at….. if the calling and annointing were to have happened after the fact… I would not know for sure how a Christian should handle that.
    The police however have the authority to handle it in any circumstance.
    I also understand your feelings about the church elders not reporting it in 1988. I can only guess they believed it to be an isolated incident, thinking he had never before and never would do anything simular again.
    I also understand the need for repentance by all of us when we make sinful mistakes. We all do it daily, with out trying, and need to repent and be forgiven. If you have gone to your stepfather, and did as the Bible instructs, you have tried the correct way. I just don’t see how you can do anymore than that.
    His repentance and forgiveness is up to him and Him.
    I do not know if Pastor Chuck is annointed or not, but he does feel very sincere to me. I have never met him, and doubt I ever will. I do learn so much frome his Bible teaching, and I am so very thankful for that. If he is doing wrong, I think he will end up doing what is right.
    And remember Alex, God will take care of His own. What we see as needing to be done may not be what God sees. He has the ultimate knowledge and view. Keep yourself and your family close to God, and use His Word for guidance.
    Maybe you do not feel like you ‘bash’ Calvary Chapel but it pretty much sounds like it to me. I am not complaining to you, just pointing out for you. Sometimes it is helpful for me to hear what others perceive of me so that I can see if its there or not for myself. Kind of a self check. Sometimes I am being a jerk. Sometimes I’m not. :)
    What goes around comes around, and we are not always there to see it. If we are we are there, it is wrong to gloat, but it does come full circle. If your stepfather is everything you are saying he won’t get away with it. He will pay, has paid, is paying, something. It will come.
    Please, try not to let bitterness take over, Walk in God’s light.
    I’ll be praying for you and with you.

  49. Sheeesh Alex, take a break… let me take over for a minute – LOL

    Renie, I sincerely believe that you are a caring person who wants to see Christ glorified and his church held in highest honor, and may God bless your desire to see such things happen. Stick with me here for a minute though and please consider this:

    Let’s pretend for a minute that Alex’s abusive stepfather is a pilot for United Airlines. We would all consider Alex to be a little nuts if he insisted that the President of United Airline’s had an obligation to do something about his stepfather’s abusive behavior at home. Right?

    OK. Let’s step it up – Let’s say Alex’s stepfather is a drug abuser (remember, he’s a commercial pilot), or doing something else which would potentially endanger the lives of passengers. Let’s also say that not only Alex, but two of his brothers who are aware of the problem have come to the stepfather and told him not to take drugs because it endangers the lives of the passengers. They are disowned for the stand they’ve taken and for the allegations they’ve made, but they don’t give up. Other people become aware of the situation on their own, and beg the stepfather to stop putting people’s lives at risk. The stepfather/pilot’s response is to brashly deny the abuse (though hundreds of people know better), tell you that nobody is perfect, ask you why you think it’s any of your business (since you don’t even fly on United Airlines), etc., and then threaten you if you mention any of this to anyone. His attitude shows that he has no regard for human life and he refuses to accept responsibility for any of his issues brought to his attention.

    Given this second scenario, does Alex have a “right”, or an “absolute obligation” to blow the whistle on such behavior? Should he continue right up the chain of command at the airlines to warn everyone he can about the renegade pilot they have flying for them? What if no one at United Airlines, not even the president, seemed to care about the problem, refusing even to cooperate and investigate the allegations – should Alex go outside the private walls of United and perhaps bring his evidence before the press?

    I think we would consider such valiant attempts concerning public safety to be courageous and noble. We would applaud him for not giving up until something was done about the stepfather’s disregard for passenger safety — because the issues that disqualify him from his job affects a lot more people than just his immediate family.

    Do you see the point I’m desperately trying to make? If Alex’s issues with Bob Grenier were simply and ONLY a family matter, I would be the first to tell him to “knock it off”, and he would get none of our support in these matters. His abusive stepfather Bob Grenier doesn’t just fly a jet for a living (if only it were that simple), he stands before people every time he takes the pulpit and represents God to them. The Bible that you and I both cherish tells us that a pastor is required to meet certain qualifications that God Himself has established for those who serve in that role. The very same Bible tells us to publicly rebuke those who continue to disregard those qualifications.

    I hope you can see the point, that no one is out to “bash” anyone or any organization, but where things need to be brought to light, then Alex/we have an obligation to keep working towards that direction – bringing sin into the light. We must all constantly guard our own hearts against bitterness, pride, and a host of other potential sins, but we must keep pressing the matter forward as if lives depended on it – because in a very real sense, they do.

    I pray that you (and anyone else who feels similarly) will read through this blog and that you will come to realize:
    A.) There is a very real problem
    B.) It should have (and could have) been handled differently (by the local elders)
    C.) A great deal of effort (spread out over many years) has gone into an attempt to have it all handled differently (at a local level, without going public)
    D.) Nothing has been done up to this point by those who had the power
    E.) Those who should have handled the problem differently are now being brought into the light.

    It really comes down to that, and I hope you can understand.

  50. Re: Renie @ 51 said,

    “I have found Calvary Chapel to be very enlightening regarding the Bible and the Word of God. Being Catholic, I was not encouraged to read and learn the Bible.”

    Renie, I’m glad you found any place where you can learn what the Bible says. It’s food for your soul and guidance. Many of us have experienced decent teaching of the Bible in some Calvary Chapels. So I’m sure we all rejoice with you that you are now able to learn more of what’s in the Bible.

    But we still have to warn people in the churches of the lack of all accountability for the Calvary Chapel pastors and all the dangers that go along with that. We would warn you not to give money to or get too involved in any church where the pastor had no accountability.

    It will ultimately be healthier if you can find a church where accountability is already in place.

    Renie said, “The police however have the authority to handle it in any circumstance.”

    Well, I believe Alex said the police indicated he had a good case against Bob, but the statue of limitations had run out so he and his brothers can no long bring a case against Bob, legally, about the child abuse they suffered.

    Renie said, “But I know how abuse feels, I know how deeply being a child accused of things you didn’t do and have no way of defending yourself against cuts, and I know the feelings of fear and shame of sexual abuse by an adult when you are a child. ”

    I grieve for you that you “know” these things. It was wrong and should not have been.

  51. Good job, JonD!

  52. JonD #49,

    You speak in a language I can understand….thank you. I get picked on sometimes for using analagies, but they help! Nice to see someone who can use them to draw out such an in depth picture me.
    I must say I did not hear the part of Alex’s radio interview that explained about hearing others who had problems with Bob Grenier and what those problems were. I will go back and look a little closer for those parts to this I have missed. And, yes if BG is emotionally or physically or spiritually abusing any one, of course it needs to be stopped…. In a Godly and just way.
    That would be some of my worry, that some of the reality always gets mixed with some added fabrications from people who are not just, but just opinionated and hurtful. Alex seems to have a lot of reasons to be so involved, but as the real troubles are aired, it breeds in others to add fuel that is added to do only that…. fuel a fire and it may not even be knowledgable information. Silly things even, that still add weight to one side of the scales. For example; I noticed someone had mentioned that CCCM is actually in SanTana, and it may be somewhat implied that they think they are too good to admit to being in Santa Ana. Yes it is in Santa Ana now. But that is not the case at all. The church started on Church St and Walnut in Costa Mesa. When it moved to the new location the name wasn’t changed. Why would it? It was started with permits etc that do not need to be changed, just the address. And CC of Santa Ana already exists. I only know that because a friend of mine who periodically attends Bible Study with me pointed that out to me. So I checked into it. Silly and petty on this blog when the real material is a serious matter.
    Anyway, I thank all of you for your time spent to help me understand better, and doing it in a kind manner.
    Alex, I truly have added you and your family, (extended too), in my prayers. I pray you will also always keep the pure reasons in your heart for your motivation. You said that you didn’t see Pastor Chuck Smith as an evil or bad man, and I agree. We all make sinful mistakes, and he is no exception as he openly states. I do believe he is genuine. I don’t know what is happening with all of this, but I think it will come to light. I believe Pastor Dave Rolph is genuine also. God Bless you Alex…
    Grateful, you seem to be as kind and sincere as JonD. Thank you too. I will keep my eyes open, my heart open to God, and I will catch up on all I have not seen and heard on this blog.
    Be safe all of you, and blessings.

  53. Renie said, “And CC of Santa Ana already exists.”

    Chuck Smith owns that name, too. Public records prove it.

  54. Renie, Bob Grenier has hurt a ton of people over his 30 year reign at Calvary Chapel Visalia. About a 1/3 or less of those people (but still a significant pile representing scores and scores of former and current Calvary Chapel families) turned in testimonies against Bob Grenier that were presented directly to Chuck Smith.

    Chuck Smith said from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit that he reviewed them and told me in the meeting that he would review the pile. I take him at his word that he did.

    If he did, he is now ignoring a whole bunch of hurt people who have spent a ton of time and money in the Calvary Chapel System and trusted that Chuck Smith would hear their cries for help and do something. They were wrong. Chuck could care less. It’s all about protecting “his” situation.

  55. Renie,

    I don’t know if you are a mom, but I wonder if you could just imagine your daughter being raped by a Pastor and the church doing nothing about it.

    If I had a daughter that this happened to, I would have a hard time looking up at the pulpit at this Pastor on Sunday mornings or ever again. Even if I wasn’t sure, I would make it my business to learn all I could. Christians are supposed to test all things…

    The problem I have personally with some of my “friends” from my old CC, was that when leadership came against our family, my “friends” would not symp[athize with us… It’s nopt that they couldn’t..they chose not to and to overlook evrythign that happened to us. I believe it was for selfish reasons. They didnt want any backlash for themselves. They didn’t want to jeapardize their “good standing”. If a good friend of mine had a daughter who was raped by the Pastor, I would never set foot in that church again. So maybe I’m just an oddball. I know it is not the same situation, but if you have read this blog, surely there is enough evidence to investigate yourself..that is if you care to. I thinkt he “church” as a whole is very apathetic..Kind of “If I am not involved, I am not involving myself”.

    It has been proven that Mr Smith has lied. There is no denying that.

    You say that you like the teaching.
    Does that supercede everything you are learning about the man?
    I am not challenging you, I just want to get inside someone elses head, because I just don’t get it.
    Well, maybe I do. There is a certain loyalty people have to their CC Pastors, that can’t be denied.
    Loyalty to the point of complete disregard for anything other than what one wants to believe.
    I know because I was there.

  56. Renie, like Jon, I am very sorry you were abused. If there is something I could do to help you get justice and accountability…let me know, I’ll try to help you.

    If it was a Pastor, I feel there is an obligation on your part to warn others as “Pastor” is a Position of Trust in our Society and that office attracts people and children who might get hurt again by the person who hurt you.

  57. Renie,

    I am glad that you are learning.
    I just thought it was very disrespectful when Mr. Smith rebuked Alex and everyone applauded.
    If you can imagine how that hurt Alex.
    Just try and put yourself in his shoes.
    It seemed to me as if people are loyal to the point of complete blindness.

  58. Renie @ #52

    I’m just glad to see that you came back to check on any responses to your posts, and I’m so glad that what I tried to explain made sense. It was written in 3 different sittings, in between going to the store, dinner, etc., so it was difficult to keep my thoughts moving.

    I have an advantage here having known Alex since early 1990 when I started attending his stepfather’s church here in Visalia. I have also worked with Alex in a professional capacity and I know where his heart is, even if he comes off sounding a little aggressive perhaps while expressing his heart. He’s a godly man, and he’s doing all he can to be a good husband and father.

    My involvement here and with Alex is only because of what I have personally observed of the issues involving Calvary Chapel here in Visalia, as well as having been personally involved with some of the horrific abuse of very dear saints by CCV. The fact is that despite overwhelming evidence of not only child abuse, but financial, spiritual, staff, and member abuse that has gone unchecked for nearly 30 years, and yet no one has held pastor Bob Grenier to any real degree of accountability. Attempts to do so have resulted in character assassinations, shunning, firing from paid staff positions, humiliation, and gross intimidation of “witnesses” – all of which have been documented by very reliable and dedicated people.

    Some of the posts here (Wide Awake, Tina Jenkins, Summer to name just a few that I know personally) are from eyewitnesses who like me have first hand knowledge of wrongdoing, so this blog is not just Alex recalling stories from his messed up childhood. Please keep that in mind as you read through the stories. Many of us here are in leadership in other churches now, we’re professionals in other fields, we have family members who serve in full time ministry — we’re not novices to the faith or to church involvement, which is exactly why we MUST speak out for the truth which opposes the lies – even if it costs us something.

    Lastly, I want to refer you to a couple of my postings here that explain a lot of the background of why I can’t help but support Alex and this blog’s attempt to bring some changes about – not just for his family’s sake, but for the sake of the Body of Christ (here in Visalia especially). The abuse has gone on long enough and it must be dealt with.

    I posted yesterday under: “Interview with Phil Naessen…” post #20 and 25 spell out for you where I’m coming from and my background with the situation. In #20 I also referred people to my original posting here – you would do well to read my original testimony. These are just two places I would invite you to read, then please look around this site anywhere you may choose and see for yourself just what has been said. I can’t vouch for everyone’s accuracy, motives, etc., but I can tell you that volumes of accurate and reliable testimonies exist, that haven’t been brought to light yet.

    There’s my invitation to you Renie. I believe you sincerely want to do what’s right – just like most of us here. May God bless all OUR humble efforts.

  59. I think it is sin to ignore and not deal with an abusive pastor, if you know they are hurting people. We are called to seek Justice and love Mercy and to help those in weaker positions and to “rebuke them publicly” those pastor/elders who remain in sin and we are to “expose the deeds of darkness” etc etc etc.

    James 4:17

    If you know someone is abusing people and representing God, I think it’s incumbent on you to take action as a Christian to warn, rebuke and help stop the abuse from happening to others. That is the loving and just and responsible thing to do.

    Sure, pray along with all that…but to just pray and “leave it to the Lord” reminds me of the Parable of the Good Samaritan:

    The Parable of the Good Samaritan

    25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

    27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

    28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

    36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

    37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

  60. This is Chuck Smith:

    31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

    I’ve gotten more help in dealing with the abuses of Calvary Chapel Pastor “blessed” and endorsed (in his book, on his website, etc etc), introduced as “my pastor” Chuck Smith etc from unbelievers in the Media, than Chuck Smith…

  61. Alex..I didn’t mean to speak for you.
    I was hurt FOR you when they all applauded Chuck Smiths rebuke (curse) on you.He didn’t have to get the crowd on his side…he already has them there.

  62. Chuck Smith is not the Good Samaritan. He is worse than Pontius Pilate who washed his hands of the matter, as Chuck rebuked the Calvary Chapel Abuse Survivor, marked me as on the side of the devil and called down God’s judgment on me in a weird way.

    Very very wrong. Not Christlike in any way shape or form.

  63. Renie, Jon told me he’d be happy to communicate with you offline. He’s a great guy and is a very mature believer (he’s old :smile: ) LOL. He’s not that old, I jest, but he’s been saved for a very long time and has a long history of good fruit. I trust him.

    Email me at agrenier7 at gmail dot com and I’ll forward you his email address if you want.

  64. You laugh all you want to Alex, I used to laugh too… but now I don’t remember why I did.

  65. Alex

    We got a comment from a Jan h over at our blog this evening, telling us a bit about your story. I told her we would be happy to retell your story at our blog if you are interested.Abuse of children and women is a hot button issue for us. You are doing a good thing here. Our prayers are with you.

  66. Hi Dee, thank you for reaching out.

    Yes, it would be great if you guys covered our story. My email address is agrenier7 at gmail dot com.

    Feel free to use anything you find on this site. I would be happy to answer any questions you have via email, phone or skype.

    Much appreciated.

    I read an article recently on your site that I linked to through PhoenixPreacher.net. I believe it was about your covering Piper’s disappointing handling and bad advice regarding Spousal Abuse.

    Please keep advocating for these issues against Child Abuse and Spousal Abuse. I don’t believe Jesus Christ ever intended for “submission” to be children and women subjecting themselves to abuse…nor the Church turning a blind eye to abuse.

  67. Dee,
    Just looked at your site.
    How coincidental that there was a discussion of Yancey’s book at just about the time I was listening to the first CD on audiobook.
    An indication from God that he orchestrates all things.

  68. Dee, what is your website?

  69. click on her name

  70. Dear World,

    Never play WWF with Alex.

    Your friend whom you will thank later,

    Reuben

  71. Just found this site. My husband, Tom, came back to faith in Christ through the ministry of CC, Chuck Smith and ended up in Shiloh in 1971. We met and married in Shiloh. We left Shiloh, feeling like we were seeing the “writing on the wall” in 1978 or so. Alex, I appreciate your honesty, clarity, and humility. My prayers are with you and others who have been hurt in both CC and Shiloh. Unfortunately, this is the long history of the church since Christ entrusted us with it. Tom and I, like Barbara, wherever you are, found “home” in the Catholic Church in 1991. That long history of sin and abuse of power is there as well. Check out some of the stories of the popes! But by God’s incredible mercy and grace, the church still continues. Accountability is an important key. Holding leaders and those who abuse power and trust, accountable as well. Easy to say. Hard to do. But with the strength and help of the Holy Spirit within us, may we finish the race in Victory.

  72. Well, also some ex-Calvary attenders also went east to the Orthodox Church as well. In fact, one of them is head of the Orthodox group focus North America which helps kids in motels in Orange County.

  73. Very interesting and sad posts here. Started my “formal” faith journey @ CCCM back in 1980 and due to circumstances, was ushered into outer rings of the inner circle. To stay true to my faith, I departed a couple years later looking for a more open and love based community.

    My biggest challenge personally with CC (beyond what I read here), is the focus on the few who are right against the many who are wrong. In this blog, we have opportunity to demonstrate unity and compassion instead of alignment with one interpretation of Christian doctrine against another. I think this is where CC fails most; locked in being right, appearing right, and identifying those who are wrong. 6 years formal studies in biblical studies with graduate degree has only softened my right to be right and strenghened my resolve to be a better human and embrace Love as the fulfillment of the law.

    So, my long-winded comment is likely something closer to Rodney King’s “Can’t we all just get along” as we pursue love and righteousness and less like Ziegler’s “standing in a MacDonald’s doesn’t make you a hamburger and so going to church doesn’t make you a Christian.” Who really cares. Let’s figure out a way to fix this stuff so others don’t get abused. We are called to be advocates for those who can’t advocate for themselves.

  74. Renita and Parnelli – beautiful posts!

  75. Hey Alex,
    I’m a little lost here – the ‘about’ section of this blog is written in a way that assumes the reader has previous knowledge of your beef w/CC & Chuck Smith. I don’t recognize some names you mentioned early on, either. In the hope that I don’t sound like a complete ignoramus may I ask what you are not bitter about?

  76. The fifty hours blog seems to have been down for a while. Do you know why? Do they have another site now you can link to? Thanks.

  77. Once you step out of this circle of belief in any and all supernatural ideas the stranger they will seem. There are no angels, there are no demons, there are no spirits- good or bad, there are no virgin births and there are no resurrections from the dead. Religion makes slaves of people. How easy it is for people to abuse each other in a religious environment. It draws good people in as they are looking for love and compassion. Eventually it will suck you in and chew you up and then spit you out. Oh, it has good parts, friendships formed, kind acts, etc. These are human traits done by good and kind people. The further you get away from abusive religion environments and belief in the supernatural the stranger and stranger that mindset gets. WHY put up with it? GET OUT.

  78. Re: Steve Brown

    Just because the enemy uses counterfeits doesn’t mean that what God does and says isn’t the real deal.

    I would venture a guess that at least most of us posting on here who are grieved by the abuse that has been allowed to continue unchecked in Calvary Chapels have a real and deep relationship with Jesus Christ that has changed us from the core. Your blanket statement about the belief in the supernatural being false is not received. We already have been changed supernaturally by Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Maker of Heaven and Earth.

    Just saying that demons and angels don’t exist won’t make them go away, either.

  79. Steve is expressing a viewpoint that is quite in vogue now. Unfortunately it is not a very valid point, and history does not support his claims. There have obviously been abuses within religious settings but the overwhelming results of true religion has been incalculably good for humanity.

  80. Goodness- I never thought of myself as being in vogue! I would call it critical thinking.
    If anybody wants to live a life with a belief in witches and demons and a myriad of virgin-birth demigods, miracles, good and evil spirits, and invisible angels fluttering about by all means let them do so.
    I had lived like that for most of my life.
    There is no supernatural.
    Remember, you are commanded to ‘Suffer a witch not to live’. …Or do you not believe this piece of ‘holy’ script and simply dismiss it? What else do you dismiss? Why?
    Steve Brown in Minneapolis.

  81. Steve, maybe you are a witch that curses the LORD and His Holy Spirit?

  82. Steve Brown, believe me, I’ve been tempted many times to be an Atheist. There are times the church and what I’ve experienced in Calvary Chapel (all the way to the top with Chuck Smith) have challenged my faith.

    I really would like not to believe, but I have much less confidence that this (existence) all happened by random chance.

    As far as “angels” and “demons” and the supernatural etc…ironically Science is catching up to these things in Theoretical Physics. Study up on the assertions leading Theoretical Physicists (like Kaku and others) are making regarding 11 Dimensions, Parallel Universes etc etc. They assert there are realities that exist (and are real) that we cannot “see” in our dimension, our existence…but they’re there none-the-less.

    Some in the fringes of Science and Metaphysics believe that demons and angels are some peoples aliens…interdimensional beings able to manifest in this dimension…but exist in another dimension we can’t see. Far out there stuff and certainly not Strict Empiricism…but Theoretical Physics and some who claim Science, Reason and Secular Humanism are quite the believers in Aliens and/or interdimensional beings.

  83. Oh geez Louise. There is no supernatural. There are no witches. There are no ‘interdimensional beings”. There are no demons. There are no spooky things at that come out at night or that hide under your beds to grab your ankle if you put your leg out over the bed or that hide in your bedroom closets. There is no half god/half man monitoring your deeds. This is not the Iron Age or the 11th Century. This is all so sad. Dudes, better hit the science and history books.

  84. Say, is this the Alex I used to know many (!) years ago in Eugene, Oregon?
    I originally looked up Bob Grenier to see what Shiloh people were up to now.

  85. Steve Brown – appreciate your honesty – and your questioning religion. I felt chewed up by “religion”. I don’t feel that from what I believe today.

  86. Alex said ,” It was after much prayer that I started this site” Alex, just who are you praying to?

    You also said ,”I was told that much that happened at the last CCSPC 2012 was “in spite of” this blog, etc and that much more is coming…to which I replied “good, I don’t care, as long as it happens”…but I am intelligent enough to know that w/o all the noise, not much would’ve gotten done. ” Wow!, you give yourself a lot of credit. You are just a gnat to them., nothing more. You haven’t helped anything but you have helped devil. You use your anger against CC under the guise that you care about the kids of CC getting molested. I see you as a bitter man/child trying to hurt and divide the body of Christ at any cost. It’s too bad because you were created to be so much more. This site has not brought healing or comfort. I cringe when you quote Scripture or talk about God. It is so hypocritical I am scared for you on judgement day.

    I was hurt at a CC and came across this blog. I had hoped to find others who were hurting to talk and pray with. I had hoped to find people here that would encourage me and share how the Lord had helped them. I had hoped to find godly people and hoped we could help each other through a shared trial. What I found here was pure ugliness. Another poster said it well: “Well if this site cares so much about the abused, why is so much energy geared toward tearing down CC’s. Shouldn’t it be about recovery, seeking resources, forgiving and moving on? Where’s the encouragement?” Well, it certainly isn’t here.

    If any of you are truly believers who have been hurt, I hope you will not stay on this site. It won’t build you up, it will only tear you down.

  87. Julie M, I’d send you Chuck Smith’s way for some comfort etc, but he’d probably tell you to “get a life!” and to not be bitter and to move on and vote with your feet.

    I don’t think that’s the right advice from Chuck. I think speaking truth to him and CC and exposing the bad stuff and keeping the heat on is the way to go.

    Don’t be fooled that exposing the many issues and that CC Molestation lawsuit in Idaho etc etc haven’t been a huge factor in some changes and change in emphasis at the last CCSPC. IMO, it’s a naive conclusion. CCCM and CC has more leaks than the Titanic. I get feedback often of just how much this stuff has been discussed and is affecting their decisions. Sometimes to spit in our collective faces by some…sometimes good directions by others who are in CC leadership who agree there are legit problems that need to be addressed. You’ve got a complex Group Dynamic there…it’s the Good, the Bad and the Ugly…all mixed together….and the war for the good changes has been influenced by exposing all the garbage….and exampling how the bad stuff affects people and sticks with them.

  88. Julie M, maybe you missed this on this page above:

    “Let me be very upfront…this blog is not primarily about healing…at least my participation anyway. I am not a pastor and do not possess the gift to help those who have been hurt by the Church. I have other gifts and am exercising those as I feel led. If you want healing go to http://www.fiftyhours.com…Matt and Esther DeWitt are gifted and have a heart for victims of bad church situations. I am hopeful there will be pastors with the proper “gifts” and the heart of a pastor who will come on here and help victims of abuse (if they feel led). That is not my calling. I am who I am.

    This blog is about accountability and justice.”

    I would refer you to Matt and Esther Dewitt (Esther is George Bryson’s estranged daughter who wrote a book titled, “There’s a Cult Leader in My Kitchen” about her negative experiences with her dad and CC. They used to run a “healing” site…but I think it’s gone dark. There are “healing” resources I’ve linked on the Blogroll and there are some voices on here: Bryan, Grateful, Hannah and many others who can help you with the “healing” needs. Unfortunately, I’m not that guy.

  89. Just getting to this part of the blog. Hannah, nice work covering the errors of Catholicism.

    I really am grateful for not seeing this during the time in was in progress. I was raised in the Catholic church. Athough they believe in the trrinity, that is about as far as it goes. I was raised and indoctrinated to believe in praying to the saints and to go to Mary, first and foremost.

    There are so many unbiblical teachings that it would be impossible to list here. If you want further information, I would suggest that instead of going to talk with a Priest that you contact CRI and they will send you free information to get you started. Whatever you do don’t buy into what this other person did after leaving CC. It would be like going from the fire into the frying pan. For me, leaving the Catholic church was the best thing I ever did. They did not teach the Bible but catechism. Teachings that are made up by the laity via the Popes throughout the history of the RCC. By the way, the RCC is not the first church of Christianity. The first church was began shortly after Pentecost mentioned in the book of Act. We then have the churches that Paul established. The church of Rome came about throus a Christian sect, but not begun by an apostle. Regardless of what they what you to believe. It’s crap and it’s a bunch lies, but easily exposed if you really want to know more about them. The Catholic church was begun by Constaninople (sp). He was the ruler of the Roman Empire and had to find peace between the pagan and Christians. It is said that was converted and this is what prompted him to do this. However his edict dictated that practices from both sectors of this empire that he ruled over was to overlapped and integrate. Politcally speaking, it was to increase his authority in order to decrease the authority of the papacy. In turn, there was a split between the Catholic church., because those now know as Greek Orthodox argued that Rome did not have the right to claim soverniety (sp) over the church, as Paul had begun the church in Greece, first many years before the gospel was taken to Rome. That would another interesting study, that is, contrasting and comparing the two Catholic systems. Hmmm.

    Too many people join churches because they feel welcome, not because they are really founded or studied upon the Word of God. So, all I can say is if you don’t understand or never heard of what is referred to as “statement of belief” or doctrinal beliefs, there are plaenty of people on this sight that can refer you to a good source to get you started.

    My people perish due to lack of knowledge.

    CRI Christian Research Institute: Any question regarding this ministy you can ask me. i used to be Dr. Walter Matin’s Executive Secretary and Key Person really apologetic question relating to social and family topics.

  90. I hate typing not using the word processor as I make a lot of typos.

    My last paragraph should read: CRI (Christian Research Institute (the one founded by Dr. Walter Martin and handed over to Hank Hanegraff – regardless of what some would like to claim otherwise). If you have any other questions regarding this ministries credibility, I will vouch for them. I used to be Dr. Martin’s Executive Secretary, was in charge of the correspondence department, and also provided direction and answered questions regarding psychological and social issues.

    I do not agree with all of the position taken by Hank, but I think he gives a fair criticism of the the positions and provide information that is well researched and studied. His staff is phenomenal. Elliot Miller is the Editor of their Magazine and I believe is the Chief Research Director. You would not be wasting your money if you subscribed to the magazine and would grow exponentially in understand the different doctines, beliefs systems among the Christian community as well as be able to contend for the faith to witness to the unsaved and those who practice various Religions.

  91. I have been praying more than ever about issues brought up on this site and their correlation to things I experienced and to things others may be experiencing still yet have no strength to stand up and face. I had asked for Alex to take this site down because of ugly things people were saying about a few innocent people. I said I was going to be praying and I really pressed in and willed not to search out the matter personally but to seek the Lord and yet God kept leading me back to this site and even to Alex’s responses to me and showing me that there was so much truth in what he said and also in what I said. There was zeal to his responses to me but they were also filled with grace. As I write this I realize that I believe that Alex illustrates what Paul said to the Galatians “It is good to be zealous in a good thing always…”

    We have all suffered losses in life and had people hurt us in many different settings but the issues presented here are different from any other type of offense. Christ had one group of people who He used words of “Woe” towards repeatedly and they were the scribes and Pharisees. They were hell-bound according to what He told them in Matthew 23. These hypocritical religious leaders were the ones Christ used strong words of condemnation against.

    For every other lost soul though, His grace and love and mercy was overwhelmingly abundant and beautiful. So beautiful in fact, that He used Mary Magdalene who He healed and delivered of 7 demons, to proclaim His resurrection to His unbelieving disciples. So beautiful, that the sea-hardened, impulsive fishermen of His day were the ones He picked first. Even formerly tight-fisted, money-loving, greedy tax-collectors were among those He transformed by His grace showing that what is impossible for man is indeed possible for God.

    In 3 and 1/2 years He pronounced “Woe” on the corrupt, religious leaders of His day more than He did on anyone else and in Matthew 18 He added some “Woe” to another group….”to the world for offenses” against children! He went so far as to bring children before Him and let his disciples know that the man who brought offenses against children had “Woe” coming to Him as well.

    Here was our gracious, loving Savior, saying that He would not put up with certain things. The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites who expected things from the people that they refused to do themselves. They robbed widows, made a mockery of prayer and gained converts for themselves that were more corrupt than they were and Jesus laid into them something awful in Matthew 23. It is what He did in Acts 9 though that fills me with levels of love for my Jesus that I cannot describe here! Our ressurected and ascended Lord went after one of them and He got him for Himself!!! He took Saul, (hell-bound, murderous Saul) out of that darkness of hypocrisy and man-made religion and abuse of the people and He asked Him an important question and Saul’s life was changed for eternity “Saul, Saul why are you persecuting Me?”

    You see, Saul did not realize until the Damascus road experience that what he did to “the least of these” was counted as being directly against Christ. He did what he did in the ignorance of unbelief (1 Timothy 1) and our, loving, ever-patient God showed him mercy! In Acts 22 Saul, now refered to as Paul, spoke to the darkness he came out of and they did not understand him!!! They wanted to kill him! He stood before the scribes and Pharisees, the same type of men he once walked in unity with, the same type of men who according to Jesus were “sons of the devil” and the same type of men who with Saul, had consented to the death of Stephen in Acts 7 and he told them about how he met Jesus on the road to Damascus and how his life was transformed and those men, Paul’s “brethen and fathers” wanted nothing to do with him! So much so that he had to declare his Roman citizenship just to have permission to not be scourged by them! Read Acts 22 it reads a lot like the response the religious leaders had towards Stephen in Acts 7 (What other response does it sound similar to?). Saul had to learn that in his transformed life as Paul, he would face persecution by the religious leaders of that day who were still living in the gross darkness of the old life that he grew up thinking was normal…the life Jesus condemned in Matthew 23!

    Those men wielded huge amounts of power in Jesus’ time on earth, in Stephen’s time on earth, in Paul’s time on earth, but the religious spirit in them was older than that time. It was the one that deceived man into the sinfully attained knowledge of good and evil that came to mankind in the Garden. It was in the evil-heart of Cain giving in to the sin lurking at his door and killing his brother Abel. It was the spirit in Babel as the men built a tower to reach the heavens (where God dwells!!) without God’s permission and without a true desire for relationship with Him!!! It was part of every religious war fought since the Church-age began. It is in every person who has tried to teach another gospel since the one true Gospel has been revealed. It is the same spirit because it is the spirit of anti-Christ…Satan himself at work tempting men to reject God’s plan of salvation provided through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, by developing one of their own. This self-effort and self-justifying satanic plan does not work but instead creates hypocrites and liars and men of corrupt minds and abusers of children and lovers of money and essentially God-haters like Satan is and the same way Satan twisted God’s Word in the Garden and used it out of context in the temptation of Christ, Pharisees and their counterparts through ages past, present and to come do the same, refusing to repent and refusing to truly turn to Christ for Him to provide them with true salvation and instead declaring that they are above judgment.

    When John declared that many anti-Christs had already come he knew what he was talking about! (1 John 2 and 1 John 4) . When Jesus told the Pharisees that the blood of every righteous person since Abel would fall on them He knew which spirit He was speaking about (Matthew 23). There will one day come one man who embodies all of the qualities that the false religious leaders have and he will try to present himself as God…..The question is: “If we put up with the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees now and the false gospel they present, will we even know who the anti-Christ is when he presents himself?” No wonder we were told that if possible the very elect would be deceived!!!!

    Paul, an ex-Pharisee, who had seen the murderous, demonic darkness of their self-made attempts to reach God without God and the abuses they had directed to God’s true people and Paul who had even been party to some of those abuses, was set free for freedom and he never stopped declaring the Gospel and warning the people about impostors….even calling names and itemizing things that had been done by those men who had crept into the newly forming Church to try to take away freedom and bring hypocrisy and force God’s people back into bondage. Paul is in heaven because he was set free by Jesus. He was released from the “Woe” that was pronounced in Matthew 23 but if he had continued in the Pharasaical lifestyle and continued to abuse God’s people he would be in hell and if he had put up with that lifestyle and not begged the Galatians and other churches and people not to fall back into it, (going so far as to highlight specific incidents!) he would have been a poor shepherd…..in 2012 though I believe he would have had his head chopped off…if not literally then with attack and defamation by the Pharisees of this time!!!

    That being said, I am praying for this site and for Alex, with great fervor and for healing and peace for everyone hurt by Pharisees posing as God’s men and for every child against whom an offense has been brought and for everyone trapped in the dark recesses of organizations claiming to have God’s power when they do not even have His heart. I was pulled out from that darkness, but any time I spent there was because of my own ignorance and because I did not realize that I was putting up with the preaching of “another Jesus” by tithing into a place where the actions and words of the leadership did not line up and were filled with hypocrisy and yet were not corrected as sin by other leadership.

    Paul warned the Corinthians not to put up with “another gospel” (2 Corinthians 11) and he warned everyone else with tears that impostors would come (Acts 20) but years before him so did the Author and Finisher of his faith and of ours…Jesus warned us (Read Matthew 24). His life on earth was a template for what leaders should look like and the only way to be like Him and to be His is to be filled with the Holy Spirit and thereby do the same things and show the same grace and love and fruit that He showed. Children could sit safely with Him and be loved and cherished and the lost and hurt and broken found healing. He was love and grace and mercy and servanthood and He was God and He saw fit to bring to light the hidden works of darkness and we are told (as people who have received power to become His children) to do the same.
    Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

    So at the risk of being redundant and despite any longwindedness :-): I am praying for Alex and for everyone else here and for myself and for the Church worldwide that we do everything that our God is calling us to do in these times and that it is enough for us as disciples to be just like our Master.

  92. #91

    “The question is: “If we put up with the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees now and the false gospel they present, will we even know who the anti-Christ is when he presents himself?” No wonder we were told that if possible the very elect would be deceived!!!!’

    It is with reasoning and conviction of my own heart that I persist in speaking the truth to CC leadership to prompt them to step in on my behalf to hold my husband to an account and to warn others that his pastor has approved him to study to become a CC Pastor. It is also why I have not chosen to walk away from my marriage even in the midst of the threats he has made upon my life in order to cover up the treachery, betrayal, and abuse towards me and our marriage. For to do so, would not enable him to repent and bear the fruits of that repentance, but rather his very soul to burn in hell forever. It is with the love that God has filled my heart that provokes me to take a road less traveled, yet nevertheless, one that I believe is more honoring to Him who died for us all. It is because of my own experience of being heartbroken that I found this site to bear witness and to join my fellow sisters and brothers to bring attention to CC and others in the body of Christ that these abuses have and is taking place.

    It is not to say that there are not good, decent, honest, and sincere Pastors who are not among those who need to repent. But rather to prompt, warn, and to plea with all CC Pastors and the body of Christ to speak up even if you did not have first hand experience with any particular situation mentioned on this site. The fact is, it is happening, you know it and it is as a CC leader to invoke a respentance to change the system that would enable better accountaiblity among the leadership and the body of Christ, by acknowledging that CC is a denomination and that what happens in one CC is very much the busienss of every CC and the flock which has been placed under their care. No matter what your corporate papers says, the Scriptures tells us differently. We are all the body of Christ, no matter where your CC may be. It is the CC label that brings people into your congregation and fills your seats. It is events like Greg Laurie’s that gather volunteers from all the CC to be lay persons for those who come to Christ. Being so, CC is not just affiliation to to protect you from liability or being held to an account, but rather a denomination that ought to have more concern for its flock than it does a concern in keeping yourselves separate from another “CC” as well as the body of Christ that you by the way, according to Scirpture are to be a part of the whole body of Christ.

    CC is not to be a club for Pastors to get together to make decisions on the behalf of the body of Christ, that has absolutely nothing to do with feeding, protecting, or nurturing the sheep. I have to believe that God has been convicting your hearts. For those who have heard His voice, I would now say if not now, when will you do what is right to serve the body of Christ to stop the abuse and the leaven that has entered in as result of the Mose Model and the business concepts of affiliations and “non” denominational corporate legal loopholes to avoid being the pastors that we need to have at our backs?

    When are you going to go beyond Chuch Smith to making your calling sure and true to the Gospel, that we all know so well? If not now, when?

  93. Good grief folks, don’t you understand that no one is perfect and any one of us can fall into any sin. I stumbled on this site and I sympathize that Alex was “victimized” by someone who happened to be apart of Calvary Chapel. Alex, how many sins have YOU committed against another person? Your flesh has certainly taken over and the enemy has you right where he wants you. Whoever sinned against you only sinned against God and whatever sin you committed against another (not to mention every horrible thought you’ve ever had) was a sin against God.

    God did not ask you to be his police officer.

    Who then should warn the world about you and your sin, your thoughts, your flesh?

    You need to go to Bob and repent for your bitterness and forgive him.

  94. Joe, did God ask you to be Alex’s police officer?

    I think God has told us all to hold accountable the spiritual leaders, especially unrepentant elders/pastors/leaders … remember the Pharisees? Again, see 1 Timothy 5:20.

    Alex is NOT in a position of trust, leading others, with the power to lead them astray and hurt them. CC Pastor Bob Grenier is and does.

  95. Joe, when you chalk this all up by saying “no one is perfect” I have to wonder what Bible you are reading. Abuse of any type is a type of sin that destroys others. What more, God tells us to not put up with it, but to expose it.

    Calvary Chapel is in the state that it is in because of their failure to do so. Instead, like you because of this excuse use to ignore it, you not only enabe it, but also help to breed this by telling vicims like Alex to basically move on.

    What more when you say “Your flesh has certainly taken over and the enemy has you right where he wants you,” Joe, you are being use of the devil to make a victim think that it is wrong to want these things to be brought into the light so that it can be addressed and healing can began.

    When people speak in the manner that just did You are now giving license to our pastors and the congregation to practice sin. Because now you are saying to their victims, “no one is perfect, therefore we are not going to hold anyone to an account. What more, we are going to shame you for wanting to rock the boat in a church body that is trying hard to move on in order to save others. The irony is what about the ones that are already saved and have been victimized by the very system that was supposed to have had in saving them. That, my friend is what gang mentality is made. That my friend, is what addictive and narcissistic mindset are made. That my friend is what the 12 step philosphy is made. That, my friends is what the jailhouse mentality is made. That my friend is what fuled abuse, opression, and ungodly, unrighteous, and unholy behaviors. That my friend is not of the Lord. Being not perfect is no excuse for ignoring abuse and corruption.

    Suggestion: reread your Bible or get a better translation.

    Some might see this as being harsh. In my mind, it is far more harsh to say to Alex or any victim that Satan is using them and that they are in the flesh for doing exactly what God had told them to do. Ephesians 5:11

  96. Correction: the very system that was supposed to have had a part in saving them.That, my friend is what gang mentality is made. That my friend, is what toxic, addictive narcissistic, and psychopathic mindset are made. that my firend is want creates a distorted view thowards women and feeds into those things that are extremely disrespectul, including that of lusting and treating them as objects to feed one’s fleshly self serving hidden desires. That my friend is what the 12 step philos0phy is made. That, my friends is what the jailhouse mentality is made. That my friend is what fuels abuse, oppression, and ungodly, unrighteous, and unholy behaviors. That my friend is not of the Lord. Being not perfect is no excuse for ignoring abuse and corruption. Being in and of the Lord is about coming out of this darkness by exposing the Light into that which is said ouught not be permitted to go on in our homes, church, and community. i would say to anyone that holds such a statement as yourself to repent and stand up for your brothers and sisters who have been abused as a result of this “imperfection” that mocks God’s grace by persecuting those whom such sins have taken their toll.

    It’s all well and find to say that you are sorry that Alex and others have suffered. But what are you going to do to help stop the corrueption and abuse in the church. Because this is what God has called us to do. Each and every one of us. None are exempt, not even you. That would be a true love towards the Lord and His church.

  97. After Paul had exhorted the church to address sin in the church he also said:

    Galatians 4:16
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

    1 Corinthians 5
    New International Version (NIV)

    Dealing With a Case of Incest
    5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]

    Revelation 2:2 ESV
    “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

    Deuteronomy 31:25-29 ESV
    Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the Lord. How much more after my death! Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them. For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.”

    Jeremiah 8:8 ESV
    “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

    children of God.

    HelpfulNot Helpful
    Revelation 2:2 ESV / 20 helpful votes
    “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

    HelpfulNot Helpful
    Deuteronomy 31:25-29 ESV / 16 helpful votes
    Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the Lord. How much more after my death! Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them. For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.”

    Jeremiah 8:8 ESV
    “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV
    For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

    James 5:19-20
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    Bring Back the Erring One
    19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

    Proverbs 27:5
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    5 Open rebuke is better
    Than love carefully concealed.

    Proverbs 27:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

    Galatians 6:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

    If the structure is not biblical, it cannot stand against the corruption that is inevitable. In turn, if the the leadership has become corrupted, how then can they protect the flock and fight against the leaven that has seeped in. For now the leadership needs to take the board out of their own eye, so they can see clearly the plank in another. The only other option is to silence and to discredit those that have suffered as a result of this abuse and corruption. We then come to being named among the Nicolaitans, the church of Sardis and the church of Laodicia.

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men [godly men/women] do nothing.” ( Edmund Burke). Emphasis mine.

    And so I for one have joined with Alex to nail our “Wittenberg” protest to the doors of CC, as well as other churches to warn others of the those things that ought not be in that which belongs to our Lord, our God, and our Redeemer–that is, His church who has been called to come out from practicing and fellowshipping with those that do. It is a call to Repentance and Reconciliation. Hear the Spirit that compels us as much as it did, Paul, the Prophets, and the voices of the saints persecuted having gone before us.

    In an article by New Jerusalem regarding Open Rebuke is better than Secret Love:

    Why there is no rebuke in the modern church today and what is the consequence? (Said in a spirit of love) I always am asked why I can never say anything positive; I simply tell people that “Open rebuke is better than secret love”. But the sad reality today is that there is more to reprove than love. We are heading towards the darkest hour in history and the church not only watches the world slowly slip into hell, but watches itself backslide so far away from God that soon there will be no hope but that of a soul-shaking revival.

    The state of the church today is no surprise to those that are familiar with their bibles. It happened over and over again throughout the Old Testament and the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ tells us that as we stand, or lay, we are in danger of the most catastrophic tragedy ever to strike God’s people. I think the third chapter of The Revelation could be appropriately titled “when God gets sick” because we are told that unless we repent then we WILL be spew form the mouth of almighty God. I think now is the time for honesty in the house of God, not flattery. We are so worried of offending someone and running them off that we never relay the biblical truth that will save their soul. Are we preaching the Gospel today?

    I believe with all my heart that Paul would rebuke us and tell us to stop preaching, “another Gospel”. Sure, we tell the world of God’s love, but all we are doing is making them comfortable in their damnation by making them think that God could never send anyone to hell for sin. We fail to tell them that “God is angry with the wicked every day”. We all need to read Ezekiel chapter 33 and think of the vast quantities of blood that stains our hands. Imagine the horror that struck that prophet’s face when God said to him, “Their blood will I require at your hands.” But God says the same to us. Every person that dies without Christ is the fault of the church. Why do we crowd up the bread of life inside the walls of our so-called Church buildings and let the world around us perish of spiritual starvation.

    The world is thirsty, but they “drink in iniquity like water” instead of the “living water” that only Jesus Christ offers. They have the grace message memorized; more of the world I think can quote John 3:16 than the church due to our poor evangelism methods. We never tell them that sin offends God, IT MAKES HIM ANGRY. We never tell them that, and because they are never convicted of their sin, they are never born again. Argue if you like, but it is true! They use the grace of God “for an occasion of the flesh” and consequently “trample the blood of Christ under foot.” Grace is not a ticket to sin; it is a ticket to freedom from sin. We compromise the message so much under the name of being “seeker friendly” that the “seeker” is never saved. That isn’t friendly in my book! I do know what we are friendly toward the ways of the world. We have taken grace to such a level that it has turned into a way to never tell someone they are wrong because we are terrified to rebuke.

    When rebuke does happen, the person that does it is labeled judgmental/critical. I think this totally contradicts Paul command to “REBUKE and exhort with all sound doctrine”. When correction is neglected people feel comfortable living in sin, and Satan steals their soul.

    So I think that we obey Jesus for once, and repent. I say this all in love, I want to see the church today operate in the anointing of God, but we must “cast out the immoral brother [’s]” from among us. The biggest hindrances to the fire of the Holy Ghost being poured out among us is worldliness, pride, self-righteousness and immorality.

    When we try to do God’s will our way, God withdraws and let us try to do spiritual work in the flesh. This is impossible to accomplish. Many think that feeding the hungry and giving to the poor is fulfilling the great commission, but Jesus said to “make disciples” not fill stomachs. The flesh is secondary to the soul. We feed after, never before, we preach.

    The result of, immorality, and humanism, and neglecting correction, is a Luke warm church, a church that puts Almighty God to shame. The Holy Ghost won’t work under our conditions, we have to work under His conditions or else He will withdraw himself, and it has already begun.

    “Be zealous Therefore and repent.”

    Unknown

    http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/2245

  98. Linda, @97

    Well said. Well said, but do any of them have ears to hear???????????
    The Joe’s and that other women’s post Alex responded to the other day, speak sooo much to the mind fog and unbalance teaching in cc and other church’s. How sad for the sheep lost in “another gospel”, and how HELL scary for the good pastors/ leaders, although I do not buy in to ” there are good pastors”, so much, any more than I believe good people let children be raped and molested and do not make it their business to step in.

  99. Olivia, even the hardest heart can be softened.—need we look any further than Paul as an example as one with plenty of zeal but short of the Holy Spirit. Unlike Paul, however, they know they are preaching a different gospel, but to do otherwise would require them move out of Roman 7 into Roman 8.

    Good point regarding good pastors and good people—same thing as Alex correcting BG on summing up these as being the result of “bad parenting,” rather plain evil being done.

  100. Can you look into something for me? I came across and article while i was researching secret societies on the internet and found the name Todd Smith who claimed to be heavy into witchcraft and into the Illuminati back in the 70′s. He also claimed to have given 8 million dollars to Chuck Smith to start and birth the christian rock music industry. After reading a few things on it there seem to be some ties indirectly their and then with other things that I have read about CCM endorsing Rick Warren and his teachings, I would like to know if CC is associated at all with secret societies.

  101. I think CC is becoming their own secret society. To try to get any substantial information at all is like pulling teeth. In fact they wouldn’t even admit to Alex that they had an affiliation agreement when he met face to face with Chuck and his attorney. And why is it such a secret to the congregation (the giving members) to know who is on the board of a church? But time and time again, you hardly ever get a straight answer.

  102. Hi Alex. I just became educated as to who your father is, what your experience has been as his child, and how you are being victimized now for choosing a public forum as part of your recovery process.
    First, I am SO SAD that you had to endure extreme abuse. It is worsened by the fact that your primary abuser was someone who had an external personal of a respectable, even Godly, person. Makes things that much more crazy to have that split.
    Second, I know you are absolutely telling the truth. No doubt. You are most likely extremely careful not to overstate, or share what you have not yet come to terms with. Everything I have read from your statements are completely consistent with a person who had your experiences.
    PRAISE GOD that you have come through so well.
    I am somewhat shocked to learn that your father is taking such an aggressive route to try to discredit the truth about him. He is really a person who enjoys, maybe needs, the sense of power over his “victims”, although you are no longer his victim. In my opinion, he wants the sense that he can control you as well as still maintain that veneer of a Pastor.
    I pray you are not too shaken by being thrust into the legal system. I pray you have located various helping organizations for victims.
    Hey, your mother is really a damaged, very weak person. Don’t take her position in this lawsuit personally. She is not even mentally or spiritually healthy enough to have her own mind or dare to have her own voice. Pitiful indeed. You are so much more fortunate. You are a survivor, and she…well….has not survived more than at the bare minimum. She’s breathing and walking. That’s not much of a life. That’s the life of a zombified victim. Very sad.
    I’m glad for you that your siblings and others have come out to confirm your victimization. Praise God again for that.
    You are not like your parents. You have been blessed with a much better framework for your character and soul. Please remember that you are presently being challenged by those much lessor than you in every way. They just can’t handle the truth. What is however beyond shocking is that the Calvary Chapel system is pulling out all the stops to fortify them instead of letting him stand or fall on his own defense, since this was a family matter. That is really telling. CC has so much money, and they have no problem apparently spending it to try to clear their name as they see it. Another CC ego trip – this time ego defense. Perhaps they feel legally threatened that your public memoirs will create subsequent legal liability for them from others who may come forward.
    And LOVE your website. Pat on the back of praise to you for this. I saw how many visitors you have from all over the world in such a short time. You are doing such a great service for the wounded CC christian community in this process. Thank you for that.
    I plan to make a donation next week. Yours is a very worthy cause.
    Let me share what I know transpired between Oden Fong and Calvary Chapel regarding SetFree. There was an expose of Aguilar in the Orange County Register details his background, which included a criminal incident where he physically damaged a young boys genitals. The assault was detailed in that newpaper article.
    I read it myself and discussed it with others word for word at the time. Set Free ministries took some issue with Calvary Chapel, for reasons I don’t recall. They appeared at Calvary Chapel evening midweek worships (and maybe weekend ones, I don’t recall) in their black Set Free identified uniforms with leaders present who directed them with finger snaps. I was there then. I was attending Oden Fong’s midweek service regularly, then.
    They behaved somewhat challenging and aggressive with the attendees, inviting us to visit them and such. At that time. Oden Fong was instructed by Chuck Smith not to create any appearance of division with them because they are part of the body of Christ. I was told this by Oden Fong when I discussed with him aggressive leafleting I was subjected to in the ladies room. So, there was the trademarked CC fake smile (from the same school of acting as DIck Cheyney perhaps) towards them and we were to do the same. It was of no significance that this completely damning article about Aguilar’s past and the cult like practices of SetFree church were big Orange County News. I later heard Chuck Smith say to people forming a small group after a service of his and asking about tolerating SetFree people “invading” the services, that he did not want any division in the body of Christ and we were not to discuss this further. Apparently, the SetFree issue did not go away. That was a subsequent time when I was not longer attending. Apparently, there was a decision made about taking a stand against them. From what I know, Oden Fong, as well as everyone else at CCCM, took direction from Chuck Smith like good little soldiers. It is so unlikely that Oden Fong independently ventured into something against SetFree. Extremely unlikely, since a “directive” was already given about how they will be handled previously by Chuck Smith.
    The original SetFree incidences occurred just prior to the time when David Hocking was unmasked as being in a year long adultery with a woman who came to him for counseling when Hocking was Sr Pastor at Calvary Church of Santa Ana. Hockings Board and Elders put him on a one year recovery and accountability and counseling program. But Hockings wouldn’t have that, and within a week, Hockings was teaching from the pulpit of Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa with Chuck Smith on the stage behind him. I was told from the lips of Chuck Smith when I, with others, complained about this, that Hockings was repentent and the punishment of a year off of preaching for man “that gifted” would destroy him. Also, I was told from the lips of Chuck Smith, that as for Hockings adultery, “satan sent a woman to attack his ministry” (which was as an author and lecturer of books on Christian marriage). Chuck Smith’s expressed attitude was that if you didn’t like it, there’s the door. Many people received that response from Smith at that time. Around that time period, Chuck Smith Sr had a son Chuck Jr who briefly had a Calvary Chapel Church in Dana Point. At one service I attended mid week, Chuck Jr began to discuss what Chuck Sr was like when he was not on the pulpit and with members. He relayed incidences which were inconsistent with the Chuck Smith we see and hear and used to get bear hugs from. I didn’t believe Chuck Jr then but I so now in retrospect. I was young and naive then. Chuck Jr exposed his father from the pulpit that night and shared some of emotional his wounds from him. Chuck Jr lost his right to call his church a Calvary Chapel soon after and I don’t know what happened to his church after that. I soon learned how intolerant Calvary Chapel is of any feedback and how they have a layer of spiritual “leg breakers” if you will, between Chuck Sr and anyone who threatens the status quo of the sheep in the pasture. That is a pervasive mentality in the Calvary Chapel system. I see that those heavy hands came down on that basketball player on YouTube who interrupted a conference speech by a Pastor there who was lying about his background and who knows what else. They not only had him arrested, but pressed charges because he spoke out in the midst of this charade.
    You are very courageous to stand firmly and speak your truth because you want to.
    I know people who have the cult mindset will want to attack you for what they perceive as an unacceptable attack on anything Calvary Chapel. That is their problem. I hope you don’t have your personal relationship with God damaged because of the abuse of your father, a Calvary Chapel pastor in good standing. I pray you endure this well
    and have the support you need. It’s not a David and Goliath thing that it seems. It’s just that sometimes evil congregates strongly whereas often good people react more lazy, for whatever reason. I see this in my own life and quests for justice every day. Righteousness is more casual whereas evil is almost relentless.

    Be strong. Be well. Be blessed. And be VICTORIOUS. Thank you for this site. How indeed successful it is in such a short time.

  103. PS @Andrew.

    Re:: Calvary Chapel is their own secret society. You nailed it. And we know that secrecy breeds every form of sickness and abuses from its very nature. Transparency and accountability are the qualities of a clean church.

    I believe that Alex here has cracked open a heavy layer of secrecy of sins – which is quite remarkable. That is what is rocking their world. They are desperate to put a lid on it.

    “You will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”

    SIC Beth

  104. Beth,

    I was reluctant to post, not wanting anything to distract from your clarity, wisdom, obvious experience and knowledge but my heart is wanting to express gratitude. Thank you for your encouragement for Alex and anyone else who can take comfort in your words. Indeed this site, these people are doing a great service to those who have been harmed and God willing help to prevent others from harm. Amazing is it not the journey of finding out who the real man is behind the mask, wow, sometimes I try and imagine how one can live like that, what motives, what real goals can drive that find of mind. I am not embarrassed to say and think…. judging the fruit, it is not on the tree.

  105. Hi Olivia. Yes, these people are of remarkable courage and strength. Jesus said many times for us as sheep not to be deceived. There are so many forms of deception. Although so many people have been hurt in many ways by the “church machinery,” it is to one’s advantage to be forced into a position where our primary relationship and trust is God and not man, if it is not there in that order originally. Also, we are given the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth, and although the truth may be painful or disillusioning, it is a blessing to be living in truth honetheless.
    Small accountable fellowships are the church for true disciples, in these Days, in my opinion. These mega churches, these cult like organization with multi million dollar buildings are warehouses for lukewarm souls, also imho who are kept in a state of passively financially supporting the church and building the ego of the Pastors by their sheer numbers. Someone on this site referred to people as “seat warmers” and I have to say that calls us what we are considered and used for in these “venues.”
    There is deep darkness in so many large, authoritative, money rich religious organizations, and I say Praise God when He sees that they are unmasked and light is shined upon them. I can name the Crystal Cathedral, Aguilar, the Catholic church,
    Calvary Chapel, and previously David Hockings. And there have been many more.

    There are many private monsters influenced from the realm of satan hiding behind religious robes who do the most maniacal things behind closed doors. I say “Praise God” when they are made accountable. We serve a God who wants a clean church that calls itself by His Name.

    The result of Alex’s of documented exposure of an evil that extends blame laterally within an intimate church system is to have it stopped. Only by exposing true persistent, unrepentent unGodliness in an unaccountable House of God will it ever have a chance to be stopped.

    Alex may have had a very hard time on his days on earth by his circumstances, but he will surely have it made up to him in the Eternal Life when he will be both rewarded for his courage and honesty, and will be given back everything he was deprived of unrightously, and more. His battle here is a very draining one because he is being attacked by a force of darkness that is fighting against being exposed, taking self inventory, and repenting, on the basis of pure ego, in the Calvary Chapel lawsuit against him. We need to support him openly because we are his fellowship of the spirit, because we know he is truthful, and called to God’s purposes. He is not fighting any person; he is fighting a system that is unhealthy, unscriptural, and ego-centered, or I should clarify, that they are fighting against him.

    God has his hand on Alex and I have every expectation that Alex will come through this well and is only beginning his work which is positively impacting a huge segment of the Christian world for the better.

    Nice to meet so many of you through your posts.

    SIC,
    Beth

    I

  106. One more thing,I just realized that the over all pattern of arresting people, suing people that i am seeing going on from the Calvary Chapel side is overt bullying. That’s what they are trying to do to Alex, imho. Bullying! What a low tactic. And I pray it fails loudly in the name of Jesus.

  107. Beth @105

    I agree with your assessment of the church (“machinery”) today and also believe small accountable fellowships may be a much better option.

    I also believe Alex and appreciate him and what he is doing very much.

  108. The devils is out to devore especially those in positions closest to the Lord preachers, pastors, priest and any other person spreading the good news of God. All men are human including those at the pulpit at Calvary Chapels. To say Chuck Smith condones actions that are unGodly is ridiculas. I am sure he has been aware of some that have fallen from grace and probably wishes that they would disappear into the dark and not tarnish the Calvary Chapel name who wants that if your trying to do good in this world that needs it you dont want one mans filthy actions to reflect on all those greeat Godly men doing good works.

  109. Yolanda, you really are naive at best. We, who are in Christ are the royal priesthood and have the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we who are mature in Christ are able to discern what is and what is not of the Lord.

    You speak of things that you do not know and lift up that which has no spiritual basis in the teachings of scripture. You are only regurgitating that which you have heard taught to you by CC. Not necessarily that which is founded upon God’s Word. It’s called “drinking the kool-aid.” Just because a person may be a pastor, preacher, or priest does not make them closer or chosen of the Lord. In fact, for any to take on this position sets them up to be held to a higher standard. The position does not mean that this person is of the Lord, or in the Lord. Nor does it mean that they are “untouchable” and not to be held to an account when corruption and abuses are being perpretrated or enabled by them. Quite the contrary, in fact. For you to think otherwise, I have asked myself, is Yolanda just young in the faith or does she just goes along to get along. Not wanting rock the boat or is it a case of not studying the Bible on your own. Or perhaps, you are just one of those who is easily caught up in group think or even worse the idea that a female is not able to discern biblical teaching apart from what her husband or pastors tells her to do.

    Whatever the case may be—it’s obvious that you had this “god” like perspective towards those who you say have authority over you.

    As for one bad apple should not be reflective upon CC as a whole. If one CC pastor have knowledge of such thing yet does not work to have these things addressed, then they themselves are guilty of such offenses. By the way, just as you are Yolanda. If you have spent time on this site, you and anyone else are now aware of what has been stated that has led to a blatant disregard by CC to exercise those things that are corrupted, abusive, and just plain unbiblical. Good works cannot balance the scales on these evils, Yolanda. What more, if false doctrines and a corruptible and unbiblical governing system exists, then where is the church, Yolanda?

  110. Yolanda,

    Yes, the devil is out to seek anyone he can and destroy. That being said, anyone who falls should not be leading at that time. The person who is ultimately responsible for cleaning house at Calvary Chapel and kicking out the wolves is Chuck Smith. The entire point here is that he does not do what his responsibility calls for. And he cultivates a culture of abdication of Pastoral responsibility. “Wishing” the fallen would recede into the darkness is not his job. His job is to have a system of accountability, and when wrongdoing is found, it is his job to address it biblically and to the safety of the flock.
    He does not do this. He stands in to protect the wrongdoers and leaves the flock to the devil’s access. That is not what a Pastor is for. In addition, he annually authorizes the use of the Calvary Chapel name and associated trademarks. It is his job to evaluate each pastor and church annually and root out what is not according to his standards. Apparently, his standards are very lax and arbitrary. Your perspective that you “think” he
    “wishes” wrongdoers would go away is like saying the Catholic church “wished” the pedophiles would just “go away” and not tarnish the name of the RCC. “Wishing” a problem away that harms and threatens members is not a biblical course of action. Or an acceptable and effective one.
    Chuck Smith clearly knows what happened to Alex. Yet, he has done nothing biblical about it. Further, he has permitted a lawsuit to be lodged against Alex with a Calvary Chapel church being one of the plaintiffs. What kind of biblical action is that? And he has allowed the pastor, Alex’s father, who is an abuser and a sick perverted person who is not Christian on the inside, to continue pastoring a Calvary Chapel Church. This entire wrong picture of biblical leadership is the responsibility of Chuck Smith. He is the one whose desk the buck stops at
    Please don’t continue to view Chuck Smith as without responsibility or try to read his mind and project your own protectionistic wishes or fantasies. Look at the actual outcomes. Look at the system, or lack thereof, of accountability. You will see the real
    mind of Chuck Smith in the circumstances.
    Be not deceived!

    Take care. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

  111. Beth, that is one of the best assessment’s I have ever read about Chuck Smith and his responsibility to the Flock.

    I’d like to repost this as its own article. Can you flesh out your thoughts some more on that issue? It’s really good stuff…

  112. I agree that Chuck Smith is ultimately responsible in regards to all things calvary chapel… Chuck still wears the mantle of authority and there IS sin in the cc camp.

    Either you are part of the problem or part of the solution. Remember Eli the priest who allowed his sons to defile the house of God, Why?

    Nepotism is favoritism granted to relatives regardless of merit: several popes elevated nephews and other relatives to the cardinalate. Often, such appointments were a means of continuing a papal “dynasty” (Wikipedia)

  113. I needed to thank you for this good read!! I absolutely loved every bit of it. I have you book-marked to look at new things you post…

  114. Alex I stumbled on this web site last night accidently and had no idea that all this was going on. Though “control” issues were obvious the rest of what you have blogged about with your brothers and BG were not detectable during the few years that we attended CC. I am very sad for what you and your brothers and mother have experienced and lived through and sad for Bob with what he is obviously dealing with. It is even more sad that the reputation of What Jesus is all about is so tarnished by this story. One thing is clear, all men fall and some deeper into the abyss then others. Any man can hide behind verses in the bible for justification/excuse or whatever. Satan and his followers know the word and use it for thier war against our Lord and God. Many are false prophets as for told in the word and will be held accountable. I pray for healing and Gods peace for you all.

  115. Alex, thank you for this blog and for exposing the works of darkness. I have been a pastor in NY for 30 years. My wife, Faith, was raped and molested from age 10 to 18 by her father who was a pastor at the time. He is not repentent and has no shame at all. Seven years ago when he was 72, he molested one of his grandaughters. Two weeks later he is in another church singing in their chior. Sex offenders are all through our churches and most Christians have no idea about the extent of the abuse.

    I would love to connect with you and anyone else who has a desire to deal with this issue and see the church wake up from it’s complacency. I am currently pastoring a church in the Corning, NY area and Faith and I started a ministry 7 years ago to deal with abuse. We go into churches and Bible colleges to speak about abuse. We are both on fb. Our web site is http://speakingtruthinlove.org and our phone # is (607) 359-4366

    God bless,

    Dale Ingraham

  116. Dale, welcome and THANK YOU!

    When things calm down, i’d love to talk with you guys. I would love the opportunity to get to know you guys and your ministry and promote it on my site.

    Your emphasis is very much needed. The church needs to learn about these issues and how to deal with them and how to help victims of abuse, spiritual, physical, etc.

  117. Hello Alex, I want you to know that I applaud your work and efforts. I came into CC in 1975 and lived in the House of Psalms for two years with Steve Mays. I helped start CC El Cajon and pastored in WI and UT. I stopped pastoring 5 years ago. I have spent the last 5 years in my own recovery of childhood sexual abuse. I found help through an organization called MaleSurvivor. I was 50 when the process started and to be perfectly candid it did not start until I had completely imploded. I am now divorced but have the love and support of my six wonderful children and family support as well. As a survivor, I understand the situation that you and your brother’s are in and I support you 100 percent. Keep up the good work.

    Joe

  118. Can you let us know what happened to the Bob Coy and Calvary Fort Lauderdale page. It has been unavailable for a few weeks. There are many who would like to know and like to see it back open. What happened? Thanks for what you are doing. There is a lot of spiritual abuse out there.

  119. Hi again,
    I read through a top portion of the posts. Calvary does have an extremely enormous set of problems. But the worse is the development of this systematic brainwashing they perform. They believe in a ‘like-mindedness’ that they think is a gift of God. I find it to be instead a problem of inadequate and unhealthy lack of being able to establish individualization. Like some large system that is both Borderline and Narcissistic. You are not allowed to be an individual who has his/or her thoughts or personal opinions. IT’s sickness. And then tearing families apart, it’s Borderline. Cult-like yes-they never listen to what people tell them is their own personal limits. If I say I don’t like ‘x’ they do ‘x’ intentionally and determine that is ‘practicing submission’ one to another. It’s wrong and hateful. Individual boundaries are not respected at all. That IS what a cult does. If anyone has ever read about cults the entire purpose is to break down the individual boundaries and create a ‘sameness’ within the cult. I really see that as unhealthy and extremely toxic. Because of Calvary my entire life fell apart and I recognize through many of these posts that changing anything about myself because of what Calvary taught made my personal relationships worse rather than better.

  120. This a link about the Mormons, I found it very intriguing the similarities these guys have with the CC model/method.

    From my experience defiantly 80% is the same method and in Melbourne, Australia 90%.

    Take time to watch it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUsOHsZIiA4

  121. Having been a part of the Calvary movement for the last twelve years, I am saddened to say I have left the church. As Broken stated above, it is almost a cult like movement. There is no liberty in Christ Jesus, and they set up your walk based on their standards and expectations.

    Now I will say that not all the Cavalries I attended operated this way. We have had the privilege of attending 3 Cavalries here in the state of Michigan over the last 12 years. I came to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior in one of them. Within the last twelve months I left one Calvary where I was saved and joined in fellowship with another only to leave it.

    Currently my wife and I do not attend church, we are fed up with the hypocrisy.
    We too are being retrained by the Holy Spirit as much of the quote unquote theology and doctrine of man does not line up with the Word of God. In addition their approach is very subtle. The Calvary I was basically raised in has been a revolving door, and Lord have mercy if you ever question your pastor or leadership. Basically I was told I had a rebellious heart, was stubborn, did not know how to communicate, and so much more. They only build you up as long as you are doing for them, other wise they tear you down and throw you to the curb. I have seen this happen time and time again.

    Like Job and his three friends my wife and I have had to relearn our creeds as well. This has been a difficult year and a half but I thank God for what He is doing in our lives. We abhor no anger or bitterness, as I made the decision to follow man and not God.

    Please feel free to contact me or visit our website at:ephraimsgrit.com. Thank you for letting us share.

  122. Glad this site exists. Facts bear out the need 4 it. A 2007 Christianity Today article shares many of them. I would add that its conservative evangelical theology at the root of the evil. Individualistic and financial profit values lead people astray. Jesus taught against both. Self denial and helping the needy used to be Christian values, but the conservatives have married the Republican party and all sorts of personal and financial impropriety has resulted in the evangelical church. Mainline protestants do not have nearly as many of these problems not only because they have denominational checks & balances but they are progressive in thought. They have a more humble, there by the grace of God go I mentality that cares for others. Calvary chapel started out as a ministry to shut ins but is ending as a billion dollar enterprise that feeds off of selfish values. churches like this should be stripped of its non profit status and made an example of how not to run a church. No wonder people stay away from organized religion. God help us get back to who Jesus really is and stop making him into our image.

  123. This site is a blessing and more people-for I am certain there are more-need to shake off their fear and bring the truth out into the open – and others like me will not rest until calvary are expelled from the land of Israel

  124. My wife and I are currently “between” churches. We are both disillusioned with CC as a whole. The last two local CC’s we’ve attended have been marred by the reality the senior pastors are accountable to almost no one. This troubles us greatly. We need to start thinking and behaving and studying Scripture like Bereans, folks, and not darken the door of any church where pastors are unaccountable…

  125. dear Saints,brothers and sisters in the Lord,

    Unfortunately,your stories are very common these days in mutitudes of churches and denominations all over the world.Abuse of all kinds are being perpetrated against true believers useing our Lords name to their shame and destruction.Mutitudes are comeing out of institutional churches from all denominations,movements,groups in christiandom.After a time of readjustment and healing they are finding a closer walk with our Lord and Saviour.Studing the word and discovering our freedom in Christ.
    I left the independant fundamentalist baptist fellowship,(they claim not to be a denomination)of churches in the midwest,about four years ago.My story is very close to those of you leaveing CC.If you google spiritual abuse you will find lots of sites that deal with those issues.There are two free online books that were very helpful to me when i first left an authoritarian abusesive church and found that those i thought were friends were not.
    The books are:”churches that abuse” and “recovering from churches that abuse” by Ronald Enroth phd.Here are two links for the books:
    (www.ccel.us/churches.toc.html)

    (www.ccel.us/churchesrec.toc.html)
    I know of many other free resources for those who are looking for help that this site is not specifically meant to deal with.Feel free to contact me at (oneeyecarpenter@gmail.com)
    May God bless you all in your journey.
    A brother who cares and knows.

    David L
    ps.if there are any in New Mexico,i know of a brother in that state who would love to connect with those who have left the church.He has a sizeable online ministry and is a former member of CC churches.

  126. I thank God for Chuck Smith and John Higgins. Their ministries were used by the Holy Spirit to bring me to the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ along with thousands of others.
    Offenses will come. That is why we walk in forgiveness. Pastor Chuck is basking in God’s love in eternity.
    .

  127. Karen said, “Pastor Chuck is basking in God’s love in eternity.”

    Chuck’s dead body is in the ground this moment.

    Karen said, “Offenses will come. That is why we walk in forgiveness.”

    Chuck Smith sued Mike Kestler for millions in the Calvary Satellite Network scandal. There was no “walking in forgiveness”…just threats and lawyers and lawsuits etc. They ended up going to war and split a reportedly $250 million dollar radio empire.

    Also, Chuck Smith called down god’s wrath on me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit, basically cursed me and gave the “touch not god’s anointed” bull. That’s not “walking in forgiveness”.

    I can list a zillion other examples that contradict your words. In action and practice, Chuck Smith promoted a much different doctrine than you are espousing…and that was Chuck’s true belief, not words.

  128. Kent said, “The last two local CC’s we’ve attended have been marred by the reality the senior pastors are accountable to almost no one. This troubles us greatly. ”

    Very true, glad you realized it and got out.

    It is good that it “troubles you greatly”…it means you have a conscience and know right from wrong, that’s a good thing. Most ignore that tug when they feel it and continue to support the bad Moses Model construct and “touch not god’s anointed” and the CC Pastor is “special” and above everyone else.

    It’s as false a doctrine as there is and is very dangerous and destructive.

  129. >>this is a safe place for you to share your story. Safe because we have the Constitution of the United States and the First Amendment as our protection.

    I do wish you would choose a different ultimate authority to appeal to for safety.

  130. Alex: I have been up all night reading these posts. I’m just stunned and broken over the sins that have not been dealt with because of the pride of the leaders of CC. Im broken by your story. I am so sorry for you. Your brothers. Your mom. And everybody else that is effected…You’re right. Pastors need accountability. And bibical qualificationa need to be taken seriously. And biblical rebukes. I’ve had my own instances of dealing with “touch not Gods anointed” at the CC I attend. But ive been told to kindly be quiet more than once, usually just for correcting a CC bias about the outside world or quoting Scripture.A leader there myself, I try to set an example of accountability to all people, youth or the unnacounted for. People often view this as a weakness, a flaw in leadership but really its a strength.I need people to council me too, and tell me where I’m off. Everyone does. Because if we say we are without sin we make God a liar. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. I see the devastating effects the Moses model has on congregations. It causes a select few to not walk in the light with the rest simply because they are “leading”. There is no openness. If there’s no honesty, there’s no witness. Theres no ministry. And as a few mentioned above, there is so much forced conformity. There is no unity in diversity, everyone is told to be the exact same. The best decision I have made in regards to fellowship is to not limit myself to just CC people. I think when CC people stick together, christenese starts spewing out and they get out of touch with the rest of the world.

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