Aug 232012
 

Calvary Chapel Pastors like David Rosales, Chuck Smith and even Greg Laurie are quite cozy with TBN, despite the swindling of so many naive folks. Birds of a feather?

Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

2 John 1:11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

1 Timothy 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Titus 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Pastor David Rosales of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley has a lot of good buddies who claim to be believers. Among them are the folks at Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) and of course Rosales’s other BFF’s in Calvary Chapel: Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia who is accused by his son Paul of molestation (and others of child abuse, spiritual abuse, financial corruption, etc) and Pastor Raul Ries of Calvary Chapel Golden Springs who is accused of having his son and another man wear money belts to smuggle large sums of cash to South America (among many other tawdry allegations involving finances and personal moral conduct).

Apparently Rosales, who has a reputation for being a pretty strict fundamentalist and literalist when it comes to interpreting Scripture (and he has no use for the homos, Rosales rebukes them with a passion…see his op-ed in the OC Register titled “Debunking the Gay Agenda” on June 22, 2008) can’t seem to see his error in hanging out and endorsing his buds in TBN and CC.

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

Word to Rosales (again), quit publicly rebuking the homosexual non-believers who aren’t professing believers in the church and start rebuking your good friends who are in sin up to their armpits. How about some op-eds about the sin in Camp TBN and Camp Calvary Chapel?

For those familiar with the blog, you know a lot of the scandalous details about Grenier and Ries…and maybe you caught some of these tidbits about TBN (not that most would need any behind-the-scenes looks, what is right in your face should be enough to make a right judgment):

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/23/local/la-me-0323-televangelist-feud-20120323

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/05/us/tbn-fight-offers-glimpse-inside-lavish-tv-ministry.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/christianity/new-lawsuit-claims-tbn-ministry-covered-rape-13-year-old-carra-crouch

Rosales isn’t the only Calvary Chapel Big Guy who’s cozy with TBN…unfortunately guys like Greg Laurie lend their name and endorsement as well. I expect Raul Ries and Chuck Smith to go on there due to what I’ve learned about them…I’m still disappointed in Laurie. If he went on TBN to be salt and light and challenge them that’d be one thing. Unfortunately, it’s usually pretty fluffy stuff.

Harsh words and strong rebukes for the heathens! Endorsement and buddy-buddy with the Corrupt Religious Hypocritical Leaders.

Shame on you Rosales and Calvary Chapel. Shame on you TBN. Money-Changers, all.

TBN “Praise Schedule” featuring David Rosales (on tonight) here: http://www.tbn.org/watch-us/praise-schedule

 

 Posted by at 11:02 pm

  142 Responses to “Birds of a Feather? Pastor David Rosales of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley participates on TBN in long line of Big CC names who appear to endorse the Crouch’s”

  1. I’m sorry Alex…there are just some days for me that I couldn’t care less about CC and it’s celebrity boys. If these guys are saddling up next to TBN…I’m done trying to find anything to salvage. Just my take…more power to you to hold their feet to the fire.

  2. The CC folks are doing what they need to do to keep the business plan moving forward, that in and of itself justifies all they do, and always will. This I dont get I really dont no tongue and cheek.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-23/lance-armstrong-to-be-stripped-of-7-tour-titles-banned-for-life

    He did what he had to do to win, which is all that matters period. (period). It really is all that matters, ends justifies the means and it always will in every single circumstance always. In case people miss it ALWAYS does, ALWAYS!!!!!! So we agree on this and we must to be children of God as God is a winner and only wants winners, over comers and especially people who do not need God will be blessed most by not needing Him . There is another side that struggles with this, which means I am filled with Satan and need to repent.

    From the cheep seats of the faith we really have a very strange religion we really do.

  3. interesting writing. Does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

    http://www.christianresearchservice.com/i-am-a-false-teacher/

  4. alex,
    the initials TBN said it all for me …

    Totally,
    Biblical…
    NOT !!

    -mike

  5. Of COURSE they are buddies. Who on this blog has not yet realized that mammon controls the modern church Inc. movements?

    This isn’t to say that sheep aren’t still in them…but just that money is the motivator now, its no longer the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit moves where the money is.

  6. brian, MiC, Steve … ditto.

  7. Alex,

    1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? …. exactly

    And that is my response to the entire gay agenda. I know what I believe and what is taught at my church. Otherwise, gays are American citizens and deserve all the freedom and respect and rights that are in our constitution, and I even include marriage in that mix if that is what they want.

    The religious issues I leave to my personal church and my personal beliefs. I think that is called two kingdoms, but I’m not sure.

    Sorry to sidetrack the discussion about TBN, just that your 1COR verse got me thinking about this.

  8. MiC @ 4

    I’m partial to:

    T rinity
    B lashpheming
    N etwork

  9. fly,

    have you had opportunity to share Christ as the forgiveness of sins with a ‘homosexual’? would you say that christians have ‘any’ responsibility to speak out against sin in general (homosexuality in particular) in an effort to witness to Jesus and evangelize a world which desperately needs Him?

    i know the two sides of the ‘teeter-totter’ go Speak Out and then Say Nothing, but where do you think the ‘balance’ is when trying to be faithful witnesses and yet not Megaphone weilding ‘judges of those outside’?

    any ideas?
    -mike

    (i really don’t like the ‘gay’ term. kind or a historical misappropriation of a perfectly normal and gener-neutral term)

  10. steve,
    how ’bout…
    Treasure
    Bilking
    Narcisists?

  11. fly,

    this may be where the doctrines of Particular Redemption and Individual Predestination gives some measure of ‘cover’ and comfort to those who may be timid in sharing the whole truth of the Gospel (ie. that Jesus died for sin and that God now ‘calls all men everywhere to repent’ acts 17:30 and 20:21.

    just my thoughts…

  12. fly,

    this just to conclude my thoughts,

    … if God has ‘limited’ the atonement for just the elect, and the elect are ‘guaranteed’ to be saved while the non-elect can’t believe without the gift of faith anyway, then personal and corporate body evangelism becomes just a ‘mechanical’ obedience, but not a necessary ‘responsibility’… because it doesn’t ‘really’ have anything to do with the ‘end’ of people accepting or rejecting Jesus.
    -mike

  13. Between TBN and the type of unaccountable leaders Calvary Chapel draws I think it might be appropriate to take a look at Narcissism:

    Signs of Narcissism:

    1. Narcissists lack empathy for others.
    2. They have an exaggerated sense of entitlement and expect people to do favors for them rather than them being concerned about others.
    3. Envy is a common sign of narcissism as these people are jealous of the achievements of others.
    4. They dominate conversations and exaggerate their own accomplishments and importance.
    5. To a narcissist, appearance is more important than inner qualities such as integrity. 6. Bragging about power and wealth helps to boost his low self-esteem, regardless of whether the narcissist is actually wealthy or is lying about his economic status.

    Found here: http://suite101.com/article/how-to-deal-with-a-narcissist-a187995

    Recognize any CC leaders with this list? I do … several from personal up close experience.

  14. Causes of Narcissism: (From the same link above)

    In reality, narcissists feel inferior so they develop a superiority complex to combat feeling less than others. This usually involves an exaggeration of the narcissist’s own accomplishments, while putting down others viewed as threats.

    According to WinningTeams.com, narcissism occurs as a result of a gap between one’s ideal self and the real self. An ideal self involves standards that are set by other people. This gap can cause anxiety, leading to a person developing defense devices for defending his ego.

  15. Tips for Dealing with Narcissists: (Same link)

    Living or working with a narcissist can be difficult. The following measures can be helpful to anyone who must deal with a narcissist.

    1. Set boundaries. It’s important to decide the amount of approval to give a narcissist. This also applies to setting boundaries on how long to listen to them talk about themselves. For example, if a narcissist goes beyond so many minutes of self-adulation, politely change the subject or make an excuse to leave the conversation.

    2. Avoid arguments. Forget trying to win an argument with a narcissist. Instead, steer a conversation in an peaceful direction.

    3. End the relationship. When involved in a relationship with a narcissist, it’s important to know when to leave. If a narcissist is a family member then it may hard to end the relationship, so it’s vital to care of yourself, realizing the narcissistic has a mental illness and what he says intended to be hurtful should not be taken personally.

  16. grateful,

    wow! that’s an interesting list and i can think of several pastors/ministers (CC and otherwise) who would fit that bill PERFECTLY.

    my mentor taught me to just call it “stinking, rotting, Flesh” that is dead and decaying, but still wants to be alive and kicking.

    we all need to remove these ‘idols’ from the pulpits by calling for them to repent or hit the door.
    -mike

  17. Last one … (Sorry to use so much space, just think it fits the issues and explains why many of us feel like we’ve been beating our heads against brick walls, while expecting our pastors to wake up and behave right.
    _________________________

    Warning About Working or Living with a Narcissist:

    1. Narcissists can be deceiving. Besides being charmers,
    2. they often may cater to others if they have a quality such as money or power that the narcissist wants.
    3. It’s not until a narcissist fails to get what he wants that his true personality is revealed.

    4. Unfortunately, it’s impossible to change a narcissist.
    5. Rather than receiving constructive criticism, they met criticism with anger and feel betrayed.
    6. People who support and reinforce them by giving in to their demands only enable them to get worse.
    7. If it’s impossible to avoid a relationship with a narcissist, understand them rather than criticize them as this is the only way to survive and remain sane.

    ______
    Please note on #7 the word “impossible” is the key to that sentence.
    #6 is my reason for NEVER giving any money to any pastor who doesn’t have financial accountability ever again. I will not enable and support anyone abusing others spiritually, either.

  18. Yes, MIC. All three of my CC pastors had degrees of this issue. The last one was pathological.

    He still can’t hear anyone else’s point of view, he has no empathy for others unless it’s to his advantage to fake it … which he can do well … fake it, that is. I’ve not seen an ounce of repentance, besides his speech before the congregation that has not been backed up by actions and still included hiding more of his sin that was later revealed.

    I don’t know Chuck Smith, but I’m wondering what degree of this fits him? He sure has drawn a lot of narcissistic leaders into his organization.

  19. “7. If it’s impossible to avoid a relationship with a narcissist, understand them rather than criticize them as this is the only way to survive and remain sane.”

    …. understanding that he’s just crazy, priceless….

  20. What is very sobering about understanding a narcissist is realizing this is exactly the way Lucifer acted in Isaiah 14:13.

  21. David Rosales and TBN is fluff. Really would like to be a fly on the wall at the CCSP board meeting with Rosales and Jack Hibbs, close brothers in the Lord if there ever was. Or when the SoCal (LA and OC) Bishops have to discuss a local CC issue.

    As for TBN, I was blessed by it. When working at KWVE, I had a 75 minute one way commute home. And in the winter it was depressing as I could not even enjoy the coastline as I headed south toward home. Since TBN always was lite up like Christmas, it brightened by ride during the Winter months. PTL.

  22. MiC,

    Good questions and comments. Yes, I have spoken to non-believers and shared the gospel. I have also spoken of various sins and especially like Jesus’ response with the women they brought to him for judgement. He told them those without sin cast the first stone and he also told her to go and sin no more.

    I support freedom of religion in our constitution. I think some religions are wrong, dead wrong, and that is something I can talk about, but I don’t want to force someone else to change their beliefs. I can try to convince them of the error of their ways, but I don’t htink that is the role of governments. This is not a theocracy. For that we have to wait for Christ’s return. I don’t want government denying me my religious rights, and I have to allow the same rights for others.

    I do speak out against the gay agenda, but not against gays. I understand concerns in the gay community such as adoption, insurance coverage, and most important of all, allowing their chosen partners rights to visit them in the hospital, for example.

    That is a separate issue from their sin. I don’t want the government policing the bedroom. I’m opposed to pre-marital sex, adultery, and homosexual relations. But I don’t think I have the right to force others. I do have the right to witness to them about God’s kingdom. Then it is up to the Holy Spirit to do its work. Persuasion = OK. Force of law = wrong.

    I’m not up on any of the Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist arguments. I’m not a Calvinist, but I’m not worried about my fellow Christians and their beliefs. That is a job for the Holy Spirit and God’s judgement.

    I don’t agree with all Christians, maybe not even most Christians. But that is their right to believe what they wish and the Heavenly Father will be the judge.

    Gay seems like an odd term for a group of people that I think are pretty sad, but I let people name themselves. I don’t use names like the “n-word” if a group of people ask me to not do that. So if homosexuals insist on being called gay or lesbian or whatever, I’m OK with that.

    I guess that is part of my religious belief too. I think the great commission is to speak out and share God’s kingdom. I think outfits like TBN give good Christians a bad name. But I’m not asking they be taken off the air. Let the listener decide.

    I don’t know if that really explains my views, but I appreciate you asking.

  23. here’s the true cc connection with tbn… thery’re married!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx4igesrqvQ

  24. “I don’t know Chuck Smith, but I’m wondering what degree of this fits him? He sure has drawn a lot of narcissistic leaders into his organization”

    As the title of this Post says, Birds of a Feather Flock together.

    With the news of Lance Armstrong and Joe Paterno, it seems like we are living in a day when False Idols are being brougt down.

  25. MIC SAID:

    “we all need to remove these ‘idols’ from the pulpits by calling for them to repent or hit the door.”

    I say let them stay in the Pulpits, they shepard False churches anyways. I say let’s warn the sheep to run and not turn back. You can’t reform False churches that have wolves in the pulpits.

  26. Excellent point, Andrew @ 20

  27. @ 23,

    So TBN leader, Ryan Crouch, calls himself a little god? Seriously? Even if he misspoke in any way at all, that deserves a response from the regulars who appear on there from Calvary Chapel.

    (It doesn’t appear to be Crouch making a mistake, rather a moment of clarity. As I’ve often heard said, “When someone tells you who they are, believe them the first time.”)

    Can someone tell me again why CC spends so much time kicking out Calvinists, yet partners with Crouch? Inconsistencies like this wave huge red flags that CC’s decisions are not based on truth, facts, what’s right and what’s wrong; rather they are based on “What can I (CC) get out of this?” That’s typical narcissistic decision making.

  28. My personal views on CC’s relationship with TBN- I am sure they believe that they are bringing light into darkness there. Maybe like having John Macarthur on Larry King live. Why would he participate on a panel with a Catholic priest, Rabbi and Deepak Chopra? In case there is one person who is watching that he can deliver the truth to. I am sure that is the reason for their association. And to promote the brand ;)

  29. Alex,

    I just sent an email to you, but it’s not to be publish. What I can say is this: Recently I made a comment on the CC Assoc. blog. A party contacted in private by FB to let me know that she and her husband were church planters for CC. She let me know where they were in the world and told me that they are great difficulty bringing people into the CC fold. She then shared with me that people are telling them that from what they have heard, what goes on behind the doors of CC is not what they want. In the ensuing discussion I had with her, she felt people who have complaints against CC are basically responsible for the challenges that they are experiencing as a result of being made aware of abuses in CC. Referred her to this site — hopes she visits us.

    Michael I like you TBN acronym. Grateful, excellent job on describing NPD. Have you seen the DSM 5 yet. They have taken narcissism out of the list of PDs, but have exhange it for Antisocial/Psychopath Personality Disorder, saying the Antisocial differentiates from Psychopathy in that they know the difference between right and wrong, whereas psychopathy supposedly do not. I disagree, but they are still working on this. Most antisocial are found in prison, in jail, or on some form of supervision, whereas the psychopath are found in leadership roles of all levels and profressiona, but particularly in the church, government, and I think legal (?). More on corporate psychopathy including religious go to Sandra Browns’s Relational Harm Newletter and scroll down to see the quick videos that have a fish on them.

  30. Hannah, Ditto, as least I am hoping the light part is true. For all us, no matter where we are who we are with.

    The question about homsexuality. Let me ask you this. If a person sleeping with someone other than his wife, and did not know the Lord, would you let him or her know that this was not God’s best for them and why? Now what if they say, why are you judging them. Would you cowered and skip around, apologize, or kind of back away from the subject or would explain to them what the Bible tells us about this. Or would you tell them about the gospel but wait until they accpeted Christ then lower the boom upon them, thus possibly losing them altogether. When a person asks you why you are judging them, they are feeling guilty and ashamed. They know in their hearts what’s up and sometimes, it is a way to avoid the truth. So, what do you do? Because it is not you that have or are judiging them, is it really? What does the Bible say on this? It says that all have come short of the glory of God and yeah sexual immorality of any type including the practice of homosexuality is not according to God’s Word for it violates the purpsoe of what God intended only for a man and a woman in the bonds of marriage to have and to hold. So, you didn decide this, but rather God did. God is a holy God and any thing short of obedience to His Word is sin. He said that people have judged themselves when they choose to practice these things and live in rebellion to his word. Now what is so hard about saying that to anyone. It’s the truth. It’s not your job to speak to their hearts but it is an opporutnity for you to walk by faith and get the Word out. For if you do not, then you also participate in their sin of homosexuality by not warning them.

  31. Oh one other item.

    The person who was doing the church planting felt that since CC did have a false doctrine then everything else need to be basically kept quiet and off the internet. Her whole point was her concern for the emergent churches to take hold of these people she and her husband were trying to evangelized into the CC fold. Of course I reminded her of the importance of not being like the scribes and pharisees, nor to be so loyal that she cannot hear the cries of the saints who have been thrown under the bus. I told her that even though CC chooses to ignore them, apparently those who she seeks to save are not so blind and deaf to their cries. They simply are not going buy into the hype when so many are crying out and calling foul so to speak. False teachings or not.

  32. http://youtu.be/-1PfkZqa_R0

    It seems this guy is still running the circuit, this video has some of the new and some of the “classless” / “classic” Bentley. Now Bentley is a neanderthal (and that is an insult to real Neanderthals) compared to some of the “masters” like Hinn and Copeland. Bentley has to much baggage to make it in the big leagues which is why he runs where he does. He had a chance at the big show but lacked the finesse to stay. He also lacked the skill and PR support to dump wife one and get wife two. So he paid and got sent back to the miners. Now Rick Joiner (sp) through him a life line and he floated back up in a smaller pool.

    I watched Hinn on share-a-thon, he is skilled in the show, has the shtick down to a science, and no I dont fault him on working the business. He was working the 1000 dollar angle, which is quite effective, and he told some “stories”. The audience was riveted, so was I thinking wow God you want to make me prosper, usually I think God is waiting for the day I breath my last so He can send me to hell on the express train.

  33. Folks, the official “alternate” meaning for “TBN” is…

    The Bondage Network.

    By “official” I mean “sanctioned by many (somewhat disillusioned) TBN employees”.

    By way of disclosure, I must confess that I worked at TBN for almost 3 years in the early ’80s. I went to work there believing I was “doing the Lord’s work”. I had already been a Bible-believing Christian for 4 years, attending a “Bible teaching” church. So why didn’t I know better? Why wasn’t I aware of the seriousness of TBN’s heretical beliefs? Because the senior pastor of the church I attended (CCCM) appeared on TBN from time to time, so I figured TBN was “within the pale of orthodoxy” as Walter Martin used to put it. I knew “positive confession” was un-biblical, but it was always treated as “non-essential doctrine” at CCCM so I assumed TBN was essentially OK. (Nobody’s perfect, right?) At that time I wasn’t aware of the depth of the “word faith” heresy, that it grew out of New Age, “new thought”, basically occult doctrines.

    So all that time I thought I was serving God, enduring hardship (the pay STUNK, believe me), I was actually helping to spread false doctrine at the expense of “all the grandmas” who were sending in their money to finance the whole travesty. I was serving the enemy.

    I don’t mean to discount my own responsibility for all that. I should have done more research about TBN myself before accepting a job there. However, it remains that–had Chuck Smith taken a more discerning and biblical stance toward TBN, exposing their poisonous teachings instead of giving them a pass–had he practiced Biblical separation toward TBN–then I would have never been a part of TBN’s nefarious “ministry”. But as it was (and still is) at CCCM, “non-confrontational” is often the order of the day where doctrine is concerned. Can’t be contending for The Faith when there’s air time at stake, I guess.

    An interesting aside: After I’d been at TBN for a few months, I began to wonder why they never had Walter Martin on the PTL program. I’d seen tapes of him being interviewed by P+J Crouch in times past, so it struck me as odd that he hadn’t been featured while I was there. I was looking forward to meeting him, since his book “Kingdom of the Cults” was instrumental in my becoming a Christian. Turns out, by that time Martin was not welcome at TBN. I was told he “had differences of opinion” with P+J regarding some of the things promoted on TBN. That puzzled me. I should have been suspicious, but shelved the info in the “to ponder later” file in my noggin. I found out later that what actually had happened was, Martin warned P+J once too often about the heretical beliefs of many who appeared on the PTL program (Ken Hagin, Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn, et. al.), as well as the problems with WF doctrine in general. They didn’t want to hear it. Martin was branded as “divisive”. (This was years before Paul Crouch’s “I REFUSE TO ARGUE ANY MORE!” rant, which took place shortly after I left.)

    Bottom line: The failure to confront heresy will result in serious consequences for the flock. I doubt that the Lord takes such neglect lightly.

    Lord, please have mercy.

  34. Rail Ries, David Rosales, and Jack Hibbs sitting around a table trying to decide what is best for their region, I would pay to see that.

  35. Re: jlo at 34,

    Enlighten us … what would that look like?

  36. Glad you got out of there, Chuck (not Smith)

  37. Just saw some people standing on street corners with signs that read,

    “Why shouldn’t churches pay taxes like other businesses?”

    I wondered if they came from the local CC’s that are run like businesses.

  38. Word on the street is that David and Raul tried to shut Jack down when he went from a home bible study to the warehouse location, claiming the too close rule. They had several nick names for him, such as sheep stealer and you can guess the other common one, what with the first name of Jack. That was the beginning of their long standing feud. It’s pretty common in So Cal for CCites to float around.

    Back in those days Jack was very idealistic, now he is more like David and Raul than he would like to admit.

  39. I see …

    While the pastors in this area say they have fellowship with one another, I know from the inside of the offices of 6 of them that this is truly in name only. Their egos conflict with one another, UNLESS getting along serves them well for a season. And by “serves them well” I mean it pays $ off somehow.

    I know it sounds so cynical of me, but this view was developed over the last 22 years. I did not see it the first decade and a half, not because it wasn’t happening, though.

  40. Regarding the discussion on narcissism. I believe my former pastor certainly had narcissistic traits.

    Ironically, I posted a link to Narcissism in the Pulpit in my Google review which was then labeled as “defamatory” in my defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor/church. Apparently, they failed to inform their attorney that the referenced words was a hyperlink, not my personal words.

    My attorney had to defend each defamatory phrase. At the cost of +$350 per hour, I wonder how much that mistake cost them? LOL !!! Seriously, funny!

  41. I used to use that word “narcissist” until I realized it is not biblical and have been convicted since.
    I think we have to learn to call sin sin, and perhaps a better, more biblical word is “pride”.

    Maybe giving too much creedence to Freud and Jung, and unconverted men who have not called sin..sin is not the thing to do.

  42. Question: “What does the Bible say about narcissism?”

    Answer: Narcissism is a term derived from Greek mythology. Narcissus was a handsome youth who fell in love with the nymph Echo, but when she spurned his advances, he was doomed to fall in love with his own reflection in a pool. He pined away his whole life obsessing about his image and eventually turned into a flower, the narcissus. The myth of Narcissus has given rise to the personality disorder known as narcissism, which is characterized by vanity, conceit, egotism, and self-obsession. Biblically speaking, the simple term for narcissism is selfishness.

    Philippians 2:3 is the primary verse that addresses selfishness. Paul says, “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.” Selfishness and vanity are the epitome of narcissism, and they are particularly destructive and have no place in the Christian life. As Christians, we are be modest and humble (Colossians 3:12) and live in submission to God (1 Peter 5:5; James 4:7) and to one another “with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:2-3 KJV). Humility sees the best traits in others and the lowliest traits in self. It does not envy the graces and gifts of others, but rejoices in them. The truly humble man seeks to serve others; the narcissist seeks only to serve himself.

    Narcissism is bound up in selfish ambition—putting one’s needs and desires above all else—and leads inevitably to discord, envy, strife and evil. These are of the devil, whose desire is to sow discord among believers and thereby discredit their witness in a watching world. James makes this point in James 3:13-18, contrasting selfishness—which is satanic in nature—to the “wisdom from above” which is “pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.” The narcissist has no time for others; their needs and desires are irrelevant to him. His focus, like Narcissus whose life was wasted staring at his own reflection, is completely self-absorbed. His life is of little value to himself, to others, or to God because he considers himself the center of the universe. He has displaced God from the throne of his life and placed himself firmly upon it.

    The “cure” for narcissism is the same as for any sin—repentance and a commitment to Christ as Lord of our lives. Only through the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit can the narcissist become a true child of God, dedicated to Him and seeing others as better than himself. Only then can he become a slave of Christ and know the true freedom submission provides.

    Recommended Resource: The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God by D.A. Carson.

  43. last in moderation…too many Bible references?

  44. I’m not convicted about using the word “narcissism” because it is not in the bible. They did not have scientists like we have today and we have more words to use because of our advancements. Scientists are experts at studying patterns. Mental health “scientists” have studied those patterns by grouping them and attached a word to the characteristics. We use the knowledge of experts all the time – even from people who are atheists (meteorologists, seismologists, geologists, chemists, biologists, etc). I think the real issue is to take that information and line it up with scripture to identify that narcissism is indeed a sin.

    For the record, I’m no scientist, but it doesn’t take a “rocket scientist” to figure out the sinful abuse patterns of pastors. I’ve read countless abuse stories and now can spot out the typical patterns quite easily. Narcissism is definitely sin.

  45. The overt emotionalism combined with almost a mystical belief in the power of a word or words along with just some simply strange people [all present company excluded, esp. Chuck (not Smith)] ;-) always kinda’ gave me the creeps about PTL. But, if ego supercedes true spiritual commitment to the Lord, I can see why TV coverage for CS would be tempting. Who woulda’ thunk the outgrowth of the Azusa (sp?) Street movement, CC, and New Age would converge at different junctures and ways?

    I think a lot of people compromise their walk by appearing on certain shows. Pride will come back to bite us every time some way, somehow. I know it has with me and others I’ve observed. I am a sinner saved by faith in Christ’s atoning sacrifice and wonderful mercy.

    Chuck (not Smith), you made some astute observations @ #33.

  46. For those of us who are older CCites (70’s and 80’s) we will remember that CC spoke out against and separated themselves from TBN to never darken the door unless there was true repentance on the part of TBN.

    Now we are praying for CC to repent and they have. Sadly, they have repented from their previous position on TBN and are now running headlong towards their own destruction.

    Hannah, Good points on the bibical view. Secular scholars like to define behavior as best they can. None the less, The scripture gives clear understanding of the characteristics due to its inspiration of the Spirit. Scientist observe behavior. Their conclusions substantiate the truth of scripture no matter what it is called.

    J A Smith. at 40, That is too funny! It is characteristic of the removal of the Holy Spirit that foolishness replace wisdom!

    Grateful, The narcissism stuff is classic. Outlines the behavioral issues well. It may explain why they don’t want to think about what anyone else is telling them. They are so self absorbed it conflicts with their thoughts about themselves. “I’m sorry I can’t hear what you are saying over what I am thinking about myself.”

  47. Julie Anne :”Mental health “scientists” have studied those patterns by grouping them and attached a word to the characteristics”

    I dont subscribe to this. Who are these “mental experts” apart from “The expert” the Lord? Especially when they aren’t regenerate and are operating from a subjective position of worldy wisdom. Are they acknowledging the sinful condition of the heart? How are they arriving at their conclusions apart from the Word of God?

    So called “mental health experts” have given many people one of thousands of “diagnoses” that have supported the pharmaceutical companies to label them and tell them they have a “mental disease” that is diagnosed and “treated” by medications, without God’s criteria of sin, repentence and salvation. It is the sinful condition of our heart. We need a Savior, not a diagnosis from a secular “scientist”. I am surprised that so many are in agreement with “mental experts”.

  48. Some mental health issues are caused by sin.

    Some mental health issues are caused by a chemical imbalance within the brain or body.

    I’m not a proponent of the “take a pill and feel better crowd” but we do a disservice and damage to our brethren if we label it a sin issue only, possible keeping them from the treatment they so desperately need.

  49. jlo,

    You are misunderstanding my point.
    I am not “damaging” anyone (and it is wrong to be accused of that) by supporting the Bible on the issue of “mental experts” label of “narcissism”.
    That is what I am addressing.
    The Bible does not call it narcissism but pride, selfishness and sin.

    Is narcissism a medical condition that needs to be treated with medication?
    Is homosexuality a “condition” that needs to be treated with medication?
    Is pride a “condtion” that needs medication?
    Is adultery a “condition” that needs medication?
    Is gluttony a “condition” that needs medication?
    Is drunkenness a “condtion” that needs medication?
    Is giving false testimony a “condtion” that needs medication?
    Is fornication a “condition” that needs medication?

    Are any of these “conditions” caused by a “chemical imbalance”?

    I hope you better understand now.

  50. By the way, there is a “diagnosis” for all of the above according to the ” mental experts” in the secular world. And it isn’t the “diagnosis” and condition that God has outlined for us in the Bible.

  51. I think you are misunderstanding me, Hannah. God created the brains of atheists just as well as the brains of Christians. We have benefit from their knowledge as well as the knowledge of Christians. Just because mental health professionals do not use Biblical principles to identify sin doesn’t mean that we can’t. As I said above, it didn’t take much effort on my part to notice the obvious sinful patterns of a pastor who spiritually abuses. Mental health professionals likewise classify narcissism by behavioral patterns – – – we can see the behaviors and then call them what they are = sin. Does that make better sense?

    As far as your response to jlo, would you consider PTSD an issue of sin?

  52. Hannah, do you make sure every expert you go to is Christian? How about your doctor?

  53. JUkie Anne,

    I think it’s important to stay on topic . The discussion was about narcissism.

    We need to differentiate between acts of the will and true medical conditions.

    Look at my post( #42) from DA Carson on narcissism. Maybe you didn’t read it.
    Narcissism is not a medical condition.

    This is from Wiki Re: Narcissism:Hotchkiss’ seven deadly sins of narcissism

    Hotchkiss identified what she called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:[6]
    1.Shamelessness: Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
    2.Magical thinking: Narcissists see themselves as perfect, using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to dump shame onto others.
    3.Arrogance: A narcissist who is feeling deflated may reinflate by diminishing, debasing, or degrading somebody else.
    4.Envy: A narcissist may secure a sense of superiority in the face of another person’s ability by using contempt to minimize the other person.
    5.Entitlement: Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an “awkward” or “difficult” person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
    6.Exploitation: Can take many forms but always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
    7.Bad boundaries: Narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist are treated as if they are part of the narcissist and are expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist there is no boundary between self and other.

  54. i’m convinced that PRIDE, if given in to, will twist anyone’s personality to psychotic dimensions. Nuff said.

    with the chemical imbalance thing, are we sure which is the chicken and which is the egg here? are chemical imbalances causes or caused by dietary or environmental or behavioral influences? in one ad i saw for a ‘supplimental’ antidepressant drug, they confessed that over 60 per cent of those taking AD drugs ‘still’ suffer from depression…

    are we sure that ‘balancing the chemical imbalance’ is solving the root problem or just covering it up so people don’t have to do the ‘hard thing’ of working thru it?
    could it be the same for other such psycological ‘imbalances’? we diagnose a chemical imbalance, prescribe a drug, but don’t deal with the root problem?

    what do y’all think?
    -mike

  55. MIC,

    James MacDonald addressed the subject you mention on one of his CD series yrs ago, and got a lot of slack for it.
    We are living in a very toxic world, which disproves evolution, because our DNA is getting weaker not stronger.
    If one is abused over a long time, they will get depressed and the depression will cause “Chemical imbalances”
    Also on the flip side, a condition such as diabetes, with blood sugar highs and lows will severely affect someones mood. I lived with a diabetic father. If he managed his sugar with a good diet, the symptoms would have not been there. But he didn’t and was always “high” or “low” and we saw the effects of that. So yes, medical conditions can affect moods and behavior. Thats not what the topic was about. It was about narcissism.

    So to some degree our mental state is affected by medical conditions. Things like food allergies can affect the moods. Also hormone imbalances. Everyone knows that. That is obvious. PMS, Menopause are real instances. I am not disputing that.

    I think that under the extreme stress we are all under,..physical stress by environment, chemical stress by pesticides in our foods, genetically modified foods, etc, and also God allowing the enemy to tempt us through trials to strengthen our faith..we are really struggling, many of us..not to mention the economy, the social pressures of our teens with the media, etc.. And some of us feel we may have some kind of medical condition at times, and to some degree we do. Our circumstances have dragged us down..mentally and physically. Not talking about that.

    I just think it’s important to differentiate as hard as it is these above from the condition of our hearts that God speaks of. There is a reason we have the instructions He gives us, and there is nothing new under the sun. Sins against God from unrepentant man always existed.

    MIC-Do you think narcissism is a medical condition, or a condition of the heart?

  56. MIC-i’m convinced that PRIDE, if given in to, will twist anyone’s personality to psychotic dimensions. Nuff said

    Exactly…..

  57. MIC “are we sure that ‘balancing the chemical imbalance’ is solving the root problem or just covering it up so people don’t have to do the ‘hard thing’ of working thru it?”

    Exactly….It is very hard to work through it..it is gut wrenching to work through it. But the Lord will keep His promises to us, as tough as it is for us, in spite of all the days we just can’t go on. The work He is doing in us will have eternal rewards. We have to keep looking up, “where does our help come from?” From the Lord.

    I just want to say a prayer today for all who are downcast, depressed, tired, beaten up, feeling as if there is no hope. May we all look to the author and the finisher of our faith. He has began a good work in us, and He WILL complete it. Let’s not look at our circumstances but keep our eyes on he Lord. It is easy to get distracted from the work he is doing in our lives, when we don’t see our circumstances changing, but if we just keep running our race set before us, we WILL reach the finish line, which is eternal life with our Lord and Savior. Just a prayer today that He will give us all glimpse of this eternal plan for our lives..and may we not grow weary because in due season we will reap..if we do not faint. Blessing to all today. May we all be bathed in His love today.

  58. hannah
    “MIC-Do you think narcissism is a medical condition, or a condition of the heart?”

    i think people like ‘clinical labels’ because it allows them some measure or cofort that if they can label it, they can understand it. (i also think that’s pure CRAP)
    i really think that the easier we find it is to label something as ‘just…’, the easier becaomes to justify and excuse the behavior as ‘not their fault…’ to some (if not all) extent.
    for some reason (maybe decades of bible study and rational thinking) i don’t think God sees it that way.

    narcissism is just another ‘label’ for love of self more than love of others (even God). PRIDE given into fully and freely that has led to the idea that ‘all of life and the lives of others serve ME’ and to the extent that they don’t, they are worth nothing but hatred and destruction as enemies of ‘the work of god’ (little ‘g’ intended here).

    I think God hates narcissism as He hates all SIN. It’s all stinkin’ rottin, putrid FLESH.
    -mike

  59. I use the term “narcissism” to better describe a group of traits I’ve seen in some CC pastors. In that ballpark of traits I am faced with questions as to why a group attracts men with these characteristics with some consistency?

    Answer:
    1. Moses Model lets one with narcissistic tendencies (or pathological characteristics) to operate with impunity, making being a CC pastor very attractive.
    2. People who’ve worked and dealt with Chuck Smith say he is one; and leaders breed more of the same.

    The term is helpful to pin down what I’m talking about. How the characteristics came to be within a person may be up for discussion, but for me to say it’s a pride issue was just not all encompassing enough as the term narcissistic is.

  60. grateful
    “but for me to say it’s a pride issue was just not all encompassing enough as the term narcissistic is.”

    i’m sorry. i just disagree. i think it’s always more helpful to use a biblical term and definition rather than borrow a label from greek mythology.
    there is more than enough material in the Word of God to ‘narrow’ the diagnosis and application and make these ‘men of god’ accountable to repentance or removal that we need not bow to the ‘phsychiatric bibles’ (better ‘babels’)
    -mike

  61. Grateful: The term is helpful to pin down what I’m talking about. How the characteristics came to be within a person may be up for discussion, but for me to say it’s a pride issue was just not all encompassing enough as the term narcissistic is.

    MIC:i’m sorry. i just disagree. i think it’s always more helpful to use a biblical term and definition rather than borrow a label from greek mythology.
    there is more than enough material in the Word of God to ‘narrow’ the diagnosis and application and make these ‘men of god’ accountable to repentance or removal that we need not bow to the ‘phsychiatric bibles’ (better ‘babels’)

    I hope Grateful, you don’t see this as correction, and I hope you know that I have great respect for you., so dont’ take this as correction…but I was thinking of these verses and wanted to share them because there are quite a lotta words here, and maybe too many, but they are from the Bible ;)

    2 Timothy 3:1-7

    Wasn’t gonna come back on here today but wanted to see how the conversation was moving….

  62. Hannah and MIC,

    Your arguments are well founded. The preeminence of scripture cannot be overstated. I am in complete agreement with you both on this point. However, there are times that the utilization of the perspectives of those outside the camp of believers is considered. Titus 1:12 & 13 emphasize this in Pauls utilization of a Cretian prophets testimony of their culture.

    Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
    Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
    Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

    I would not want to rely on todays pseudo science to draw biblical conclusion. I have found that they are late to the party when it comes to their reults, in light of biblical truth. That does not mean that their stated comments cannot be utilized to provide interpretive discourse on biblically substantiated conclusions. At least Paul didn’t think so and that is scripture.

  63. Hannah and MIC,

    Your arguments are well founded. The preeminence of scripture cannot be overstated. I am in complete agreement with you both on this point. However, there are times that the utilization of the perspectives of those outside the camp of believers is considered. Tit. Ch. ONE:12 & 13 emphasize this in Pauls utilization of a Cretian prophets testimony of their culture.

    10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
    11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
    12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

    I would not want to rely on todays pseudo science to draw biblical conclusion. I have found that they are late to the party when it comes to their reults, in light of biblical truth. That does not mean that their stated comments cannot be utilized to provide interpretive discourse on biblically substantiated conclusions. At least Paul didn’t think so and that is scripture.

  64. The Moses model in the CC circle is that the “pastor speaks for God.” Many pastors also consider themselves the Christian version of the Levitical Priesthood and therefore are entitled to all the tithes and benefits of their position. The sad part about this is the scriptures clearly teach otherwise and for men who, “speak for G(g)od,” they sure have missed or miss-interpret these things to their favor.

    Deut 34:10 Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

    So according to this scripture it is clear no more Moses and how he knew God.

    Oh accept for one thing Moses himself said:

    Deut 18:15,18
    “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him… ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

    Of course here is a “Moses model” of leadership, Moses told us this himself. Problem is even the Jewish people knew this man was yet to come and many attribute such a man as being the Messiah we would call Him Jesus.

    No the scriptures are quite clear on these things, pastors are not Moses, do not speak like Moses and a Levite has to be from the appropriate tribe.

  65. Alex,

    Harvest Crusade 2012 Is Greg Laurie preaching a different gospel?

    Last night, using my laptap, I sat through the entire program and listened to the message Greg was giving to evangelize those unsaved and those who “needed to redicate their lives.

    In his message I did not hear him say that one needs to repent of their sins. But just to believe. As a matter of great concern, Greg posed the…question, what does what need to give up to be saved. Then answered by saying, “Nothing.”

    Now, I may have missed something here, but if I did then was it due to the gospel not being clearly communicated in that we need to tell others about Jesus and the dept that was paid by His shed blood. At the same time, like Jesus we need to make it real clear that one must repent as well. Asking Jesus into you life and admitting that you are a sinner is not the same as coming to the Lord and understanding that sin no longer belongs in your life and that you need to turn away from it.

    Mark 1:14-15 (KJV) Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.

  66. What I heard was a seeker friendly water down version of the gospel. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. If we believe, then we will repent, for even the demons believed, they know exactly who Jesus is. Yet some would argue that repentance is a “work” therefore, it is not required to be saved.

    Seriously????????????????

  67. Hannah and Michael

    I like what you shared regarding the chemical changes can take effect unders certain medical condition, such as, diabetes and allergies, changes in the heart, and the brains operative system.

    As for narcissistic personality disorder, there is definitely a chemical change that goes on, but I don’t believe for a moment that people are born this way. Within clincial circles, if you will, the argument goes like this: (1) the tomography, MRi, and other pictures of the brain indicates their brain is different. That is they are over utilizing parts of the brain that do not enable them to access the right side of the brain that would enable them to develop a conscience. (2) although this may not show up when they are children, a switch is turned on as they grow older.

    But like any addiction they do not or they fail to consider this. When doing a particular behavior it sends a message to the brain. If the amygdala is over stimulated, then the brain no longer created dopamine and serotin and other chemical on its own. The amgdala send out a message to the person that it “needs to be fed” or it will basically throw a tantrum (become very depressed, extremely anxious, or become very angry and aggressive). Since no one like feeling uncomfortable in there own skin, they continue the behavior that is going to soothe them and enable them to feel stabilized again.

    But as Hannah stated, this is not the root of the problem. I whole heartedly agree with her, but the clinical world overall, not everyone, do not want to address this,. Instead, and it has much to do with the idea coming from psychiatrist and some psychologist that the brain determines the choices we make, as if the heart or mind is not really all that involved. So then we say, these people who upon years and years and million of experence have essentially repeated this behavior are a victim of their own circumstances. In part, this is true for they scripturally have gone into bondage.

    It is the issues of the heart that can turn these things around. And that is where God comes in. But that person must make the choice of coming to the cross and for a NPD, it is of all people, most difficult to do. As a clinician who knows the Lord, along with like cinician, we know that a change is not going to come about until this happens. We cannot force this, but we can point these in the right direction. Then pray with them if they agree or pray for them even when they don’t agree.

    As for labels, it helps me to gather certain behavioral and thought manifestations along with other physical, emotional, relationship, spiritual, medical facts to determine what is going on with them. Hannah, it is not uncommon for a therapist to lose a client, simply because they would rather be medicated than to look within at the issues of their heart. As for me, I will not treat someone under these circmstances and either refer them back to their insurance. At times, I will have them see a psychiatrist, but not blindly. I will seek to work with this provider as a unified effort to minimize the usage of meds, while getting them started in therapy and working on identifying their issues. But this is rare.

    Clinically speaking the Cluster B Personality are the most difficult population to treat. Spiritually speaking does this mean that they are not able to repent due to becoming totally reprobate in their own minds. Some are, and some would say they all are. But then again, some would say it is a matter of degree, while others will chip away at a corner of thier personality, if nothing else to make it safer and more tolerable for them to stay safe in the community and among family members. Stay safe, meaning being a “safer” and more compassionate person.

    Now there some Christian that will take a harder and more rigid line about this, saying that they just need to repent. That would be the easiest thing to do and even easier if you brain hadn’t become twisted and creasterd neurotransmitter telling something totally something else. To them black is while and good is bad, and so forth. Until, the brain is able to heal and learn to use other parts that it possess, they are in bondage so to speak and no matter how hard they try, it just doesn’t make sense them. But as they learn to participate and to experience a safe environment such as the office of a clinician to work out this “craziness” that goes on inside of them and do the homework, then it is possible that new neurotransmitter and neurons will be created.

    Some people think that all an alcoholic need to do is to stop drinking. This is a huge myth. The behavior must change as well, but to just act rightly does not mean that the heart has changed. The thinking processes that interprets the right, wrong, value and worth of human or otherwise must be healed as well. Otherwise, they will go back to their addiction (s). I say plural, because we have found in the addiction circles, that where there is one there are others. Sort of like an onion, you have peel it back, and as you do you go through all kind of stuff crying and so forth, until you get to the core of the problem. That Hannah is what I refer to the “heart of the issue.”

  68. I think Greg Laurie waters the gospel down and he is ecumenical to the bone

  69. In light of what a just shared, consider this: Sean Penn left the United States to set up camp in Haiti. In a docmentary done with Oprah Winfrey, he described himself as being Narcissistically Disordered and stated that by doing what he does, it helps him to learn more about having a compassionate heart.

    So for Mr. Penn, he chose to live in the same squalor that the people he has chosen to serve does. As a matter of record, when all the other rescue missions and other type of assistance left Haiti, he was the one that remained behind to feed, to clothe, and to provide medical care, housing, and the materiall and man power to rebuild. Is he a Christian, I don’t know. But in his words, “it is a way to give back.” Give back what, he did not say.

  70. I appreciate the discussion on using the term Narcissism. If I’m reading you all correctly, I don’t think I disagree with any of you. I just find the term to encompass so many characteristics that it’s more efficient for me to use that term than to begin making the case through common Biblical terms … which would take many words and many references, though I have no opposition to anyone doing so.

    To me, it seems Narcissism is the pride issues times ten, deeply ingrained, to the point of altering how one’s brain works. The lack of ability to have true compassion, the absence of a conscience, and always blaming others seems to catapult the pride/arrogance issues into another galaxy, imho.

  71. Please pardon my indulgence in this topic. My last CC pastor had such ingrained issues with “pride” (and so forth,) that he lost contact with his conscience and the ability to have compassion on others.

    And currently, I’ve had to deal with a man who is pathological in his expressions of pride (narcissism,) to the point that ponzi schemes (for which an impending arrest awaits him) that have destroyed other’s businesses and almost left others homeless did not bother him. He only sees life through his eyes and appears to have no ability to comprehend that other’s have value outside of what they can do for him.

    I’ve been stunned by the many similarities between the CC pastor and the ponzi schemer. Both also use religion to bilk others.

  72. Grateful:

    You describe a psychopath and not a narcissist.

    One out of every 25 business leaders could be psychopathic, a study claims.

    The study, conducted by the New York psychologist Paul Babiak, suggests that they disguise the condition by hiding behind their high status, playing up their charm and by manipulating others.

    Favourable environmental factors such as a happy childhood mean they can function in a workplace rather than channelling their energies in more violent or destructive ways. Revealing the results in a BBC Horizon documentary, Babiak said: “Psychopaths really aren’t the kind of person you think they are.

    “In fact, you could be living with or married to one for 20 years or more and not know that person is a psychopath.

    “We have identified individuals that might be labelled ‘the successful psychopath’.

    “Part of the problem is that the very things we’re looking for in our leaders, the psychopath can easily mimic.

    “Their natural tendency is to be charming. Take that charm and couch it in the right business language and it sounds like charismatic leadership.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/01/psychopath-workplace-jobs-study

  73. Praise the Lord!!!!! Sunday’s Harvest Gospel message was 1000 time better than Saturday. Powerful Message for all who needs to repent. Thank you, Jesus and thank you Greg Laurie.

  74. John, nicely done. The new DSM 5 that will be out in 2012 has actually taken out the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They have left in character description of what narcissism is, but to be understood as one criteria that meets the much larger criteria for the Antisocial/Psychopath Personality Disorder. The Antisocial are far easier to identify than the Psychopath due to what you have already presented. Most of the crimes they commit are rarely prosecuted like a Antisocial who is considered an unsucessful psychopath. These are less sophisticated, more impulsive, and have more difficulty using the false self that the successful psychopath has.

  75. John, nicely done. The new DSM 5 that will be out in 2013 has actually taken out the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They have left in character description of what narcissism is, but to be understood as one criteria that meets the much larger criteria for the Antisocial/Psychopath Personality Disorder. The Antisocial are far easier to identify than the Psychopath due to what you have already presented. Most of the crimes they commit are rarely prosecuted like a Antisocial who is considered an unsucessful psychopath. These are less sophisticated, more impulsive, and have more difficulty using the false self that the successful psychopath has.

  76. @ Hannah, Linda Pappas, and others,

    If Christianity had insisted that the Bible be the only allowable source book for every question under the sun, we’d still be convinced that the sun and planets revolve about the earth.

  77. “If Christianity had insisted that the Bible be the only allowable source book for every question under the sun, we’d still be convinced that the sun and planets revolve about the earth.”

    Where does the Bible state that the sun and planets revolve around the earth?

  78. In case anyone is interested. Did you know that the word Bible is not in scripture either?

    Other thought or consideration: the Bible states: Mat 24:24 that false prophets and false christs will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible , even the elect.

    For me knowing the criteria for narcissism/antisocial/psychopathy helps me to identify this population more easily, whereas in Scripture it is not so quickly done.

    As John mentioned in his comment:

    ‘”“Part of the problem is that the very things we’re looking for in our leaders, the psychopath can easily mimic.

    “Their natural tendency is to be charming. Take that charm and couch it in the right business language and it sounds like charismatic leadership.”’ ‘

    In Revelation such a person would also appear as the antichrist. It tells us about some of things they will do. But few, and I mean few will get a clue long before they start to happen. The public , including most of the clincial community can not identify them simply because what they expect see is a set of behavior that looks like something else. They look more normal than you or me.

    I may be slow but wanted to share this with you because I thought it was rally cool. The acroynm for the BIBLE: Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. Kool!!!

  79. Concerning how this population is able to seduce others, the article in the Christian Post on Sexual Offender explains the process that frequently takes place. Before going on, please know when this happens in a family, usually the other caretaker is broken down and becomes dependent upon the perpetrator. In turn, she will give up in protecting her young, so to speak, due to being thoroughly and I mean thoroughly traumatized. What more, it is not unusual at all for the perpetrator to find a ready made family.

    The dynamics, as described in this article is no different than any other person of these diagnosis mentioned so far when exploiting others and living a double and even triple lifestyle. In other words, everyone is an object or an extention —not human but a projection of the way they seek to purge themselves from by taking it out upon others.

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-sexual-predator-pattern-80588/

  80. Linda: I have really appreciated your posts on this thread. You have much insight. You may have mentioned it earlier, but what is your profession in that you are “treating” people?

  81. John @ 72 said,

    “You describe a psychopath and not a narcissist.”

    “One out of every 25 business leaders could be psychopathic, a study claims.”

    “The study, conducted by the New York psychologist Paul Babiak, suggests that they disguise the condition by hiding behind their high status, playing up their charm and by manipulating others.”

    Thanks. Both men built themselves a high status. The pastor with his power and money provided by CC, and the business owner with his power provided by money. Both men use their charms effectively when they want something. Both men are master manipulators. So I will call them both Psychopaths now.

    Wow, it’s even worse than I thought …

  82. Hannah at 77

    Touche!! My thoughts exactly. The scripture defines the inaccuracy of these conclusions.

    Muff Potter,

    The scripture does not claim to be the only source for learning, It does claim to be the preeminant source for learning. The fact of the matter is that we need to rely upon other resources because we do not search the scriptures well enough. A brief onterlude with scripture with our primary focus on other studies or entertainment moves us from the primary source of all knowledge.

    Linda Pappas,

    How would you describe biogenomic transfer and its affects upon an individuals micro evolutionary development? This seems like this may be up your alley.

  83. Not my area of expertise, but what I do know is: that is if you dump certain medications into the waters, it does have effect on the reproduction of fish and other critters.

    I am a psychotherapist, with an expertise in apologetics, addictions, dual diagnoses, and personality disorders, for the most part. I also do other things, but this is the areas that the Lord has gifted me to serve Him.

  84. Note of interest John, those who understand psychopathy more are coming up with a different ratio. That is 1 out of ten. The rationale is this. The ratio you gave is for those reported to have received some type of treatment (not successful) as a result of being mandated, in custody, employer, or spouse. Now, they understand that most do not entered into therapy or treatment. This former ration also does not account for those who are psychopaths but are being treated for such things as addiction and domestic violence instead. Those who are what is called the successful psychopath are rarely found out because by the time the damage is done to others, they have already moved to virtually create another life for themselves. Its as if they were an enigma: was there, but wasn’t there. You can only see the trail of devastation left behind—-like a tornado.

    Its my opinion that given today’s society that is very narcissistically oriented, they can be more visible and blend in easier. Without the Bible to guide us and the research done on this population, we would be more in the dark with them, not knowing what is normal and what is abnormal. Unfortunately, some experts are so foolish to say that since society is as it is, then narcissism ought to be considered to be normal. Now that’s a scary thought. As a Christian, walking in the midst of this type of mindset, I feel more and more like an alien. Praise God because He has told us that we are but sojourners while we are in this earthly bodies he has given us. All the more reason to pray for His return. Amen.

  85. Linda P.

    Earlier you stated concern for Greg L.’s message at one of the nights you listened. Then you praised the Lord for the message you heard on Sunday night. Would this not qualify Greg L. as an enigma? If you only heard the message of one night you would conclude he is a man pleaser, right? After all there isn’t anything that says someone listening to that night would stick around to hear the last. They would leave with an impression of the gospel that is inaccurate. Wouldn’t you agree?

  86. Linda P.,

    You stated in 78;

    “For me knowing the criteria for narcissism/antisocial/psychopathy helps me to identify this population more easily, whereas in Scripture it is not so quickly done.”

    I must respectfully disagree with this statement. The word criteria defines the standard, rule or principle by which something is measured. Although I understand sciences intention to evaluate and quantify, this cannot replace scripture as the rule by which all things are measured.

    Sociologists and psychologists alike recognize man’s need for self sustenance. To place himself above all else. Maslow recognized it and attempted to quantify it. Diner tested his conclusions. Found some faults, but the majority of the theory held water. That is fantastic! Science is awesome! It is also very late to the party. In the sermon on the mount Jesus addresses man’s self centeredness and calls him to abandon it. Genesis six expresses that the whole earth was self absorbed.

    I asked you about biogenomic transfer. This is something that is right up your alley. It is so new that you will likely hear about in the future. It is based on studies coming out of Penn State. Even this study, which is elaborate in nature, discusses things that the scripture already identifies. There is a reason that the word says that it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of kings to seek it out.

    When we default to outside sources as primary we are open to those sources to provide their spin on the topic. This usually contains their bias and it usually is not biblical. In this thread alone we have transitioned from narcissism to psycopathy. What about a sociopath, or someone who is convoluted. I have a sister in law who is a psychologist. She is also a Christian. She regularly defaults to her doctorate over scripture and she is often times wrong when it comes to her understanding of biblical truth.

  87. Ray said,

    “When we default to outside sources as primary we are open to those sources to provide their spin on the topic.”

    If we are using our outside sources as info that trumps Scripture, I suspect we’d all agree that would be wrong, not to mention unwise.

    The impression I have of this conversation is that there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not the labels (or characteristic groupings) we find in the behavioral sciences is of value to use or not. If it means that science trumps scripture, I think not. If it means that a label (or term) can be used to give a ball park of characteristics to convey the manner in which a CC pastor acts as succinctly as possible, then some of us seem to think that’s an efficient way to communicate.

    I completely agree that however these characteristics developed in my ex-CC pastor that caused him to, at least, appear to detach from his conscience, it all started with a root of sin of unbelief, that led to selfish thinking, then selfish behavior, and that seems to have been taken to an extreme over time … without any accountability/checks-n-balances/elders to bring correction/etc…. due to the unbilblical Moses Model church government style that is fertile ground for such sins to flourish unchecked.

    I don’t care what description/label is used so much as I care if the characteristics are clearly communicated to effectively convey the dangers of the Moses Model, and how that environment breeds sin to a very ugly and damaging state.

  88. Grateful said;

    “The impression I have of this conversation is that there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not the labels (or characteristic groupings) we find in the behavioral sciences is of value to use or not. If it means that science trumps scripture, I think not. If it means that a label (or term) can be used to give a ball park of characteristics to convey the manner in which a CC pastor acts as succinctly as possible, then some of us seem to think that’s an efficient way to communicate.”

    I am in complete agreement with this statement. My concern lays in the word “criteria”. By its very definition it establishes a new standard. I see an opening for a Helgian Dialectic. Utilizing certain terminology to qualify a behavioral pattern carries no significant concern on the surface. However, over time it becomes the rule of thumb.
    There is no difference in this and that which has befallen CC.

    If you go to seminary you find that they teach about the bible, church history, original language, etc. etc. What is failling is a in depth study of God’s word. We have grown to study about it. We don’t study it. This is the reasons why many cocnlusions drawn here and in many circles refer back to what someone else wrote, or stated instead of what the scripture teaches. A personal concern of mine.

  89. Raymond,

    You got some great points. I think the best label we could use is “evil” to describe what you guys have been saying. Its biblical and I believe accurate. We are all evil by nature until God does a work in us, so nothing really surprises me. What bothers me is that many pastors should know better but many become just like the pharisees who are more or less hypocrits and cannot admit wrong, apologize or be open to correction even when they are caught and are clearly in the wrong. I guess you can’t really have any criteria for labels other than the obvious.

    When you lie, you are a liar.
    When you steal, you are a thief
    When you murder, you are a murderer
    When you fornicate, you are a fornicator
    When you teach heresy, you are a heretic
    When you practice majic arts, you are a sourcer
    ect..
    ect..
    I find comfort that the apostle Paul considered himself the chief among sinners but God’s grace was sufficient for him. Same goes for CC pastors but unlike Paul they are not apostles whether they believe that or not. My only advice to many is that they probably shouldn’t be in ministry. Just saying..

  90. Raymond, Grateful, and Grateful

    Just came across your comments. As a result of my absence, the three of you have pretty much covered what I would have shared. Grateful, in particular,. To briefly responsd to you question Raymond on criteris: its usage as you have define is not what is used in the DSM. But rather, along the lines of what Grateful has shared. There is a set pattern for this particular label that we used to define a particular way that a person behaves and thinks. As for sociopaths, there is not such a criteria because it is thought to be synonymous with the “successful psychopath.” Not so much with the antisocial due to the inability to fit so well within the norm as psychopaths do without seemingly being able to be prosecuted for such wrong doings that do destroy the lives of many. Not to say psychopath do not commit prosecutable crimes for they do but by and large what you will find in the penal institutes are antisocials rather than psychopaths.

    Next, I am in total agreement that nothing, and I mean nothing should over ride scripture. All things should be held in the light and preeminence of God’s word or one can miss the mark in its hypothesis and resulting theory. We must have a solid foundation and plumbline to build upon and to measure all things by as you have suggested.

    One other thought on the word: Criteria.

    Think of criteria as being a set of behaviors that manifest and matches a certain exhibit thought pattern as well. For instance, say you are a police officer and I am your friend. One day, you are standing on the corner doing what you as a police officer. I walk up to you and tell you that I’ve just lost my job and I am going to go across the street and rob that bank, that you and I have money in.

    You tell me that if I do that you will have to arrest me. I just smiled and then make myway across the street.

    Well, I rob that bank and you apprehend me then put the cuffs on. But I become upset and start cursing you and telling you that it is all your fault and that its wrong for you to rob me of my freedom. Now, you being the good guy that you are and the friend who really would like to see me admit my wrong so that I could see the light, so to speak decides to take me back to the bank. So we go back to the bank and the people that I just robbed are standing there in fear and in shock. But then one brave soul speaks out to asked me why I robbed the bank. My answer is: it’s fault, you should have left your money here for me to take it.

    Well, you and I leave the bank and just before you put me in the squad car. I say to you, “I don’t understand why you are arresing me, I told you what I was going to do before I did it and you let me do it.

    A person with a personality disorder will fit this criteria whereas other people simply do not think and behave this way. No matter if they are a Christian or otherwise. This particular is not such that think and behaves this way on an occasion, but does so pervasively without consideration for the welfare or well being of another. This description is then referred to as meeting a criteria that categorizes a particular set of behavior and thoughts that is used to identify PD individuals.

    Let see, the Bible also gives us a description of those who are Christians and who are not. It is a criteria to identify and to know the difference between the two.

    I hope this helps.

  91. Whoops, the punch line: “My answer is: it’s fault, you should have left your money here for me to take it.

    Should read: My answer: It’s your fault, why did you leave your money in this bank for me to take it?

  92. I can remember a couple of years ago how I laughed ever so hard as I was reading scripture. I believe it was Isaiah 38. I thought about all the books, all the research, and all the time, effort, arguments that has been put into place and used to develop an understanding as well as to identify certain maladies, dysfunctions, and emotional, psychological and other near related conditions.

    I remember saying out loud to the Lord, “Lord, its been here all along, the answer, but we are so hard headed and stiff-necked that we just have to find out ourselves, don’t we.”

    What I was saying that God’s Word provides the answer for all of our problems. Not that doesn’t mean that knowing these answers is going heal us, for some of needs to go to the doctor, the mechanic, school to be trained to have a trade or occupation, or to others for direction, instruction, and support. What it does tell us is what the root of these problems are and if we repent there is One who will and take away the guilt and shame, as well as the dept we owe for having committed these things.

    In the passage that I was reading God was clearly say that the root of the fall of Israel had to do with drinking, beginning in the family unit and working its way to the top of government and then with the false prophets and teachers were telling us all is well just keep going to the temple and make your prayers and offerings and not to worry. In all God tells us that we are living in la la land and are blinded and it is only as a result of being knocked off our horses through various ways that he is able to get our attention to reconsider and to turn away from the way we are going.

    My whole point here is that when any person uses God’s word as a secondary source then it is probable that things will not quite fit together as well as it could have, had it been used as a primary source. The same goes when theologian will determine if a translation such as the KJV is better or less base on what is referred to as “texual criticism.” Once people do their homework on where this comes from, they will find that it was derived by those during the enlightenmnt period, primarily in Germany and who are better known as liberal scholars. Which is a whole other topic or perhaps a subject one should research and be warned.

  93. My concern with criteria is the inevitable subjectivity of it. Although I certainly admire when the social scientist tries to be objective, however, it begs the question of how many of the persecuted and martyred saints throughout church history may have been diagnosed with a mental disease by a non-believer social scientist today. Something to think about. This is why scripture will always trump every science.

  94. Whoops!!!!!!

    That’s what I get for not looking it up before referencing it.

    Correct Scripture References:

    Isaiah 28
    Isaiah 29
    Isaiah 30

  95. Andrew,

    I totally agree with you on all points. At the same time, I need to draw your attention to understanding that these criteria set in the DSM are of more recent history and if used as they were designed to be used by a clinician that is not so quick to come up with a diagnosis base solely on the initial information being presented. Unfortunately, too many clinician do not factor in collateral information. But this is not due to them not knowing scripture. Others integrate various philosophies that aligns their findings to fit their worldview and the treatment modality that they use. But all aims to increase the functioning ability of their clients. Some are more directive and others believe that the client should be self directive instead. So just like the many different views of Christianity, you will also find this mismash in the clinical field.

    I’m not saying this okay. For the truth is the truth, even if no one believes it.

    But as for coming up with a diagnosis, ethically, morally, and legally speaking, a clinician must have solid evidence to document in order to provide a diagnosis. They must observe and consider the evidence provided by the client and others if possible to corroborate their findings.

    Your comment:

    “how many of the persecuted and martyred saints throughout church history may have been diagnosed with a mental disease by a non-believer social scientist today. Something to think about. This is why scripture will always trump every science.”

    I think of it this way, Andrew. The characteristics of a person who is not functioning well is described in the Bible. We know by God’s word, this includes, lying, cheating, lusting, fornicating, adultery, exploiting, oppressing, depressed, sadness, extorting, terrorizing, and other types of behavior is know to be harmful to people and society. Now, if you break each of these down into a description of those behaviors then group the subset of these you can also come up with a particular character type. Believe me, a major depressed person is totally different that a psychopath. They each manifest certain characteristics that are specific to their diagnosis. Now even though the psychopath can experience a degree of depression, they would not live in the same place in their thoughts but would rather far more sooner than later rise up to get a fix to pull themselves out of it by reinventing themselves or striking out to finding their next victim.

    I think no matter what profession we might speak of there will be trial and error. And I can only speak for myself that when this happens that I back up and correct this. At the same time, I don’t think that these errors are made more towards a client due to not having a biblical viewpoint. I am only speaking of the diagnosis, Andrew. Treatment is a whole other can of worms that I take great issue with those who claim to be Christian counselors, bit only opens up the Book on Sunday and only if the Pastor teaches the Word in such a way that would warrant or give cause to read along as they do. For if this is what they do, then , yes they are relying upon other sources to treat their clients and at the same time using things that are not scripturally approved.

    So what I am saying is the criteria is set, it is objective. Any clinician who looks at the evidence should be able to match it up with the diagnosis.

  96. RaymondD, Andrew

    Agree.
    Lets just stick to what God says, use his terminology, rather than give any credence to a man made set of diagnoses that God calls sin, evil, etc. There are enough words to go around int he Bible. Also, who cares if the Bible is called the Bible or not? We all know what the word represents.

    There is a new trend in preaching where you say “made a mistake” instead of sinned.
    That is really bugging me and I am hearing it more and more from very well respected Pastors.
    It takes the sting out of the word “Sin”.
    So , we can say we “make mistakes” or we can say we are sinners. Why not use the word God uses?

  97. Hannah:

    My dog makes a mistake.

    I sin.

  98. Hannah, how would you describe (succinctly if possible) a man who does the things that Linda described in 90? I know a couple men operate this way on a daily basis. They simply do not see others as people, rather objects to be used for their purposes. It’s ALWAYS someone else’ fault. They are disconnected from their conscience.

    When I hear descriptions like narcissist, pathological liars, psychotic, and the like, I immediately know what scriptural sin package we are talking about in general. But when I say they have a serious pride issue, or they lie a lot, or they are unloving, it just doesn’t give me the full picture of to what extent we are talking about. You may have in mind a way to do this succinctly that I’ve not thought of?

  99. Another thought on the what I quoted:

    how many of the persecuted and martyred saints throughout church history may have been diagnosed with a mental disease by a non-believer social scientist today. Something to think about. This is why scripture will always trump every science.

    (1) they were persecuted and martyred because of their profession for truth and righteousness in the Lord. Wicked people did this and wicked people will use whatever means they have available to distract from being held to an account.

    (2) they were persecuted and martyed saints from withing the church and outside the church, depending upon who toes the stepped on in order to fight the good fight.

    (3) there are what we referred to as whores among the clinical profession. That is, if paid they will make the outcome of their assesment to favor the party who paid them.

    (4) but on the most part, a clinician that is seasoned in the areas of personality disorders, particularly psychopathy, domestic violence, medical, cultural, and addictions, the diagnosis is highly accurate. What I mean is any other clinician with the same field of knowledge and expertise looking at the evidence would agree with the diagnosis. It is when one or more of these areas are missing in their field of knowledge and experience that the evidence can take on a different interpretation and be viewed as something else.

    (5) it is not the diagnosis, so much as it is the treatment that leads to all sort of problems.

    (6) this is why it is important to interview the clinician before getting treatment. If you want to biblical results then make sure the therapist is biblically grounded. Don’t be shy about asking and if they get defensive—move on. I’m not talking abut arguing in they are a calvinist or an arminian, but if they are liberal which personally I don’t believe qualifies as being Christain, but more as a “social” christian (lower case c, used), then move on.

    (7) what I find is that people spend more time reseaching and shopping around for a car than to find a church or a therapist.

    (8) just because a person has a worldview that is non-Christian should not affect the diagnosis any more than having a non-Christian medical provider. Which by the way can and often do misdiagnosed whether they are a believer or a non-believer. They like a mental health expert can miss the clues due to lack of information of not having the training and expertise in an area that symptom would have popped out instantly.

    (9) a therapist is only as good as they are willing to educate themselves and to take in as many factors as possible, and to consult with others when they lack the training and expetise in areas that they have not developed. But the mental health diagnosis don’t change. They are developed and set by the criterias that are specific to the particular condition that is labeled as such.

  100. Grateful,

    I think even Linda would agree with me on this but maybe not. I don’t think anyone other than the treating counselor or doctor of said person could adequately diagnose any person either legally, ethically or morally. For us to put a diagnosis anyone without being their legal physician, counselor, etc.. we are not acting in the best interest of the person at least from a medical healthcare point of view.

    With that said, I am not a counselor or a physician but we can use the Bible. I think this is why Hannah said maybe we should stick to Biblical terminology and forget the DSM and leave that up to the treating physicians, counselors, etc..

  101. Hannah,

    So in order to establish your argument that we need to call sin, sin instead of also using the diagnosic labels that categorizes a set of behaviors into an understandable definition of a particular character type or functional difficulty, you are willing to also toss out referring to the Word of God as the Bible since “Bible” is not mentioned in scripture?

    Would you consider a learning disability sin?
    Would you consider PTSD a sin?
    Would you consider depression a sin?
    Would you consider sexual dysfunction a sin?
    How about a mood disorder?
    Or grandiose delusions?
    Or, lets try tricholotosis (sp)?
    Or, obsessive compulive?
    or, schizophrenia of any type?
    or, schizoid.

    or, even developmentally disable
    or hearing impaired
    or speech impaired
    or autistic??????

    You know Hannah, sin is sin — no doubt and so you have establish this, then what?
    How are you going to reach out to these to make a difference in their lives. How are you going to come along side of them to help them to overcome these challenges. How are you going help those harmed as a result of having a depressed, addicted, or PD caregiver, employer, teacher, or other person of authority? Pray about it? Then what, Hannah. What are you going to do when they are trying to medicate on their own. Call them a sinner! When their brain in traumatizsed and they are chemically inbalanced.

    For some Hannah, you can go straight to the core of their heart, for others the way to healing is not so direct. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater, just because you have an issue with the mental health filed is not going resolve or heal those that are better understood as a result of being able to diagnose and providing treatment that will be able to make better decisions including that of trusting God will provide and lead them to the Cross of Salvation. Oh, by the way, there are plenty of Christians that suffers mental health issues, not becuase of sin, Hannah, but because they are humans living in an fallen world and subjected the environment contained by the very air that we breathe and the society that we live. So, you can go around saying Sin, Sin, Sin, but unless you are willing to also exercise patience, understanding, and love to even the worse of these, yet exacting justice upon those who abuses others and know the difference between right and wrong, I would not if I would you narrow your options down for another to be able to get on the path to healing simply because it does not fit within your need to cry, “SIN.”

    Hannah, I know this might invoke stronger feeling in you due to the issue you have against using labels instead of calling it all sin. But just as you have disagreed with some who don’t go along with some pretty good comments you have made on this site, please know that what I have shared is done so with a heart that is meant to shine some light into a somewhat rigid position that does not permit you to see beyond “SIN.” So much so, that when I mentioned that Bible was not in scripture and another person stated that rapture and narcissism is not in it either. You basically stated, fine let’s throw the Bible and just refer to it as the Word. Hmmmm.

    Did did you know that “trinity” is not in the Bible either? Should we throw the usage of that as well?

  102. Linda,

    Obviously you have a great deal of respect for the DSM and the world of social science.
    With that in mind, Only those that are legally treating any individual have the right to put any of these labels on anyone and this appears to be missing from all of your own comments.

    If you are treating a patient then fine you can find the criteria that fits. Keep it to yourself and those that need to know. Its in the best interest of your profession and the patient.

  103. Andrew,

    “I think even Linda would agree with me on this but maybe not. I don’t think anyone other than the treating counselor or doctor of said person could adequately diagnose any person either legally, ethically or morally. For us to put a diagnosis anyone without being their legal physician, counselor, etc.. we are not acting in the best interest of the person at least from a medical healthcare point of view.

    Hmmm, as a mental health provider, of course of I would agree with this. :-)

    But as a private citizen or a victim or a pastor, I would make damn sure I knew what or whom I was dealing with as I try to figure out how to avoid being abused again.

    If you were to come into my office and describe to me various situations and characteristics I would ask a slew of questions. I would then suggest this person might being using, or suffering from such or such condition. I would do this with a verbal document waiver, saying to you something along the lines, that it appears that such and such is going on. If possible I would ask you to bring this person in to talk with me.

    But if this person you described to me appears to be of more dangerous type, then I would refer you to some sites on the internet for you to get more information that would enable you to decide for yourself. Believe me, if you are dealing with a psychopath, the bells and whistles will go off like nobody’s business and hopefully, you will begin to realize it wasn’t never about you—-but always about them instead.

    Now, let me ask you this. Do you think Ted Bunday was disturbed? Based on what information? Now let look at another person, Lacy Peterson’s husband. Sorry, I don’t recall his first name. Would you say that he is disturbed? Okay, now before they commited murder, would you have thought by the information that you had that they were decent guys? But now they were being Bundy is dead or are being Peterson is alive are being called psychopaths. Why? I mean, why were they able to go through life putting on a facade of being a good guy when in fact they were in reality totally depraved (biblically speaking)?

    My point is this: society is not educated to recognized the degree of danger that some people have as a result of lying, cheating, and abusing others. What more the victim because of the gaslighting techniques they used often don’t realized they are being abused until after they have been thoroughly abused, abandoned, or murdered. Had they known the signs or symptoms of the patholofy of psychopaths, they could have seen the red flags and even if they didn’t they would know that pastor are ignorrant the Bible simply does not classify these except to say they are corrupted evil.

    Another point is this: people lie, cheat, rob, steal and commit sexual immorality—that does not me they are narcissistic or what the new DSM defines as being antisocial or psychpaths. But given a pattern of behavior over a long time that can be observed can be used by the public to help those who are in harms way or have been harmed. Not to treat but to put boundaries in place to protect yourself and those around you.

    Now the Bible gives us a list of ungodly and unholy behaviors and call them all sin. If you want to stay with that and take your chances with such a dangerous person then you will suffer inevitable harm. Period. Because think of it this way when such a person acts out in any of these way, being a narcissist/psychopath in particular, you are not going to be prepared to deal with it. They can make it look like they have repented and in the same breath make you out to be the villain. Just as surely as they can preach from the pulpit and molest and beat their children 15 minutes later when no one is looking.

    Ted Bundy was well liked, even after being convicted and sentenced to die. He blamed his problems on pornography, yet he murdered his victim at a very early age. Of course the Governor of Washington didn’t know this Ted served as an Aide, nor did Ann Rule know this as he sat night after night next her working the hotline. She appropriately titled her book, “Stranger, Beside Me.”

    So, no andrew cannot assign a diagnostic label to a person that would be considered clinical unless you had assessed using the tools that we do in order to treat or to provide a report for court purposes. But you can equip yourself and you can equip the church leadership in knowing exactly what these types are and what packages they come in, to enable them to protect you from being harmed by turning the tables on you and thus revictimizing you all over again. You can used this to scatter the wolves so to speak.

    What more you can seek to understand what happened to you by understanding them. In this, you can be set free from thinking for a moment it was your fault. This is important because as you try to tell others, they are not going to get it, but rather they are going to try see things from within a normal perspective, thus put normal logic upon why this person did or did not do this. And what part you had in it. BIG MISTAKE (whoops, the M word). Unless you call it for what it is and know what characteristics it possesses, then you will end up minimizing, discountin, or even explaining it away. You will look at it as being just sin. When in fact, it is pure evil, corrupted to the core, without a conscience, but knowing the difference between right and wrong, but simply does not care.

    You are not learning about this to treat or to provide a report to the court, but you can leanr the symtoms and in that you can then describe your experiences in more accurate terms with seeking justice and when seeking protect yourself and when seeking to expose this person. I hope this helps and make some sense to you.

    I know the girls that Ted Bunday wish they had been warned about psychopaths, instead of being tricked by feigning a broken limb, a lost dog, or mechanical problems. I bet they would have locked their windows up their recautionary measures that they thought was safe, but in fact only enable him to kill 3 of them at once.

    There are churches whose leadership understands that for a person to repent there must be sufficient evidence to restore such a one to the pulpit if at all. Simply saying, I am sorry and I repent is not true repentance, particularly when dealing with some. But how are you going to know which are the some, if you do not recognizse the patterns that are being or has been exhibited and or reported by the victims. You’re not!!!!!!

  104. P.S.

    Just because you murder someone, this does mean you are evil and corrupted.

    At the same just there are many ways to commit adultery, there are other ways to cmmit murder than ending the life of another. Ted Buddy chopped off the heads of his victims, not to hide them, but part of his delusion as a misogynist. I know that’s not in the Bible either.

    Whereas there men and woman who will seek to control the very soul of another in order to keep them from being abandoned and rejected. That is the heart of a narcissist. But you wouldn’t know or understand that if you were reading the Bible, at least not in these terms to really key into what most victims of child and spousal and others perpetrators do.

    So arm yourselves by being willing to go beyond the Bible and looking into other resources as well to protect yourself and to make good decisions while if this is what you planned to do—expose them for what they are using terms that will provide a much better and more graphic picture of what is or has taken place.

  105. Linda said:
    “But as a private citizen or a victim or a pastor, I would make damn sure I knew what or whom I was dealing with as I try to figure out how to avoid being abused again.”

    Could it possible be that some are dealing with people with demon possession. I didn’t think the DSM viewed demon possession as legitimate. I dunno. Maybe you can tell us.

    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

  106. Andrew, most psychpaths are never treated. That is why the clinical world is educating the public. To help protect themselves and to exposed them to stop the harm and destruction that continues on if not exposed.

    Just as there is mounds and mounds of infornation on addictions, domestic violence, and workplace abuse. So now there is being made available excellent information to help identify these who practice such behavior that would describe what you take great issue in avoiding.

    For the sake of clarity, if you came into me and told me that you thought so and so was a psychopath, I would asked what you based this on. At the same time if you came in and told me that you thought your wife had a sexual addiction problem. Again, I would ask you the same question. Now this person and this wife is not my patient, but you can be damn straight if you shared certain information with me, I am not going ignore it, yet I am not going diagnosed this person you described as such, But I will document it and state the basis of that diagnosis and provide my clinical impression on the veracity of what you are sharing with me. The goal is not to treat the perpetrator. The goal is to educated and to determine what has been done and how to go about decreasing the danger and increasing your safety and your ability to function in the midst of the challenges that you have identified.

    Like so, pastors that become educated in domestic violence, addiction, and yes, even pathology can be more equip to protect and to defend their flock, Just as the flock can protect themselves fro these types of pastors. What it does is enable them to grasp the reality that they may have bought into a lie that only serves this predator instead of the real victim that has been erroneously thrown under the bus instead. What it does is cause every one to use cautioun when reinstating or reconciling with such an offender. What is does is reduce the leaven in the church and protect our women and children, What it does is lift the blinders from the eyes that were seduced into believing what is not, but what is on an appearance of godliness instead.

    Remember, it is not for an untrained person to treat them, but it is for them to be aware and to take precautions to protect and to defend.

    Let me pose this last question to you: How do you know if a robber is going break into your home, if you cannot identify the robber?

  107. Linda wrote: “Let me pose this last question to you: How do you know if a robber is going break into your home, if you cannot identify the robber?”

    This is a good question. My answer is another question to you. How can you identify the good Shepard from the imposter wolf? Jesus said the sheep will know his voice. And I will add, you know his voice by reading his word. Nothing about psychology here.

    Unfortunately you haven’t been able to answer my question from above. Could it possible be that some are dealing with people with demon possession? I didn’t think the DSM viewed demon possession as legitimate. I dunno. Maybe you can tell us? Assuming all of your arguments and reasoning is correct, I don’t quite understand how exactly you are going to identify a wolf in sheep’s clothing using the DSM without the Word of God. And I still want you to answer this. Does the DSM identify demon possession as valid?

  108. Andres stated:

    “Could it possible be that some are dealing with people with demon possession. I didn’t think the DSM viewed demon possession as legitimate. I dunno. Maybe you can tell us.

    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”

    As mentioned before the clinical community is an ever evolving process as we become more sophisticated in our ability to measure and to apply tests as well as to go beyond the prison or colleg population to gain an understanding of what needs to be revamped and what needs to change in diagnosis and treatement modalities. At one time, it was a curse to one’s career to even mentioned the word, God. Now, we know, meaning the clinical community, know that human contain a spiritual componant as well. Now how that pans out in its utilization depends, I’m afraid on a political climate. For instance, one can have a Bible on their desk on the East Coast, but one could be sanction if an auditor came in and saw it on a clinician practicing on the West Coast.

    Yet there are clinician that do provide intervention for demon possession. A very small number, as it does require careful and documented evidence along with a thorough understanding of how to accomplish the exorcism.

    Your question is excellent and it challenges many for those especially who deal with patients that take on another personality and exhibits those symptoms that well documented in case history by people practicing in other areas of the world. Remember, we used think that people who had epilepsy or was deaf were possessed. As for the DSM, those who authored it apparently do not consider this to be a part of mental health issues. At least not enough to take on or to train. Personally I think this is a good thing since it is evolving in defining what spirituality is all about.

    As a Christian I would think that it would be most dangerous to oneself as well as to the person who is possessed not to have the power of the H.S. and to be well grounded in their walk with the Lord.

    As a Christian therapist, I believe most sin is influence by the prince and principalities of darkness, just as I believe that Satan’s blinds our eyes to keep us from coming to Christ by wreaking haavoc in our lives via the our own fleshly desires and the fleshly desires of others. But if a person is a Christian, I don’t believe they can be possessed, only harassed and abuse by others who are much more being used by these forces, if you will. That is why I pray for all my clients. To have a hedge of protection around them and the work that we do together in therapy. Whether they are Christian or not—I pray on my own time and I pray for wisdom and discernment as well.

    I think I mentioned this before. Only once did I believe that a child many have been demon possessed and that is due to her parents reporting her bed being elevated when they came into the child room hearing all kind of ruckus going on. I refer the child out to a couple well known Christian Psychologist.

    The DSM is just a manual that represent various mental health conditions. In other words, it doesn’t determine anything as it is an inanimate object. How it is used is another matter and how it is put together is still yet even another matter. And the latter being what I think you are asking. Other than what I’ve already shared, I don’t think its even a consideration with the field if demon possession do or don’t exists.

    As for what impacts a person this is viewdd as nurture vs. environment. But then again in the last several years there has been some movement in recognizsing that such things as faith and forgiveness does has a huge impact upon the well-being of a person. But as for the influences or involvement of the prince and principalities, I personally haven’t heard much on this. It’s pretty much kept on earthly plane is you will. This, is in the United States and can be very different in such places as Europe, the Middle East, and South American, as well as Africa where we know without a doubt this person is being controlled by something beyond.

    Overall, I don’t think many people believe in demon possession of the devil. Apologetically speaking, I know a huge part of the Christian population do not believe in the Holy Spirit,, and like so, even hell.

    But yeah it has often been an area that I have thought about for how can I deny it being that the Bible is real clear about what we contend with and what is behind it all. This is partly why I prefer to treat people who are Christians. But I won’t turn away someone who is not for one plants and another waters, but it all belongs in the hands of the Lord—right?

  109. Linda, Thanks for your answer.

    I think ultimately we are dealing with a spiritual battle and you seemed to agree with that. Spiritual battles are best fought with the Word of God. For what’s its worth, I think you owe Hannah an apology. Just my two cents.

  110. Linda,
    (8) just because a person has a worldview that is non-Christian should not affect the diagnosis any more than having a non-Christian medical provider.

    I don’t agree.
    Linda, your posts are very long and I am having a hard time getting through them.
    I disagree with what you posted above.
    A worldview opposes a biblical view.
    A physical ailment needs a physical/medical determination.
    You don’t need spiritual regeneration for that.
    A “mental” assessment has already been determined by the Word of God.
    I agree that a trained Christian counselor with a biblical worldview would better assess the individual than a non-believing counselor who has no knowledge of God, His Word and the remedy for the reprobate mind.

    The reason why I commented about the word “Bible” is because I believe it was you who stated that the Bible is never called the Bible in the Bible.
    Now it seems, ironically that I am being challenged on this! It was never my argument.

    I guess we can debate all day about whether a “scientific expert” (as you call it) aka counselor has more merit in diagnosing and “treating” a person as compared to God and His Word.

    I just deleted a whole paragraph on nutritional deficiencies and “mental illness”.
    Really don’t have time or energy for debate.
    We all have our own views and that is fine.

    Grateful,

    Narcissism -when I hear that world, I think of vanity, self-centeredness and flattery.
    But if I were to look at the list of narcissistic “symptoms”, and when I think of one person I have in mind..they are not outgoing, but introverted. So due to this one difference, woudl they still be classified as “narcissistic”? Thats the problem when you want to take someone and fit them into a “diagnosis”. They have to meet all the criteria. Otherwise, they will get another one.

    Romans is a good example of what God says about why we get to a reprobate mind.
    If the Bible is not sufficient, then God would not have said not to add anything to it.
    If He believed that human wisdom would add to His perfect assessment of the human mind, he would have told us so ;)

  111. Andrew- I guess I now have to read all of Lindas posts!

  112. Andrew,

    Another good question, but I will only focus on part of it.

    “My answer is another question to you. How can you identify the good Shepard from the imposter wolf? Jesus said the sheep will know his voice. And I will add, you know his voice by reading his word. Nothing about psychology here.

    The DSM helps to identify the characterisics that also are reflected in Scripture. In other words, the clinical community is day late and a dollar short in what Scripture already tells us, but in a different way. The clinical community does not see things from the lens that the Scriptures has to offer us. Therefore, they will call it something else but in reality characteristally wise, we are talking about the same thing. Another consideration think about the word, “thief.” Now the police woud called this person a criminal, and the person who he robbed would might call him *))_I*YJ, whereas, an addiction counselor might call him and addict, and the domestic violence might refer to this person being a predator. The Bibles cals him a thief, among other things depending on what he has stolen. But they all mean the same thing.

    In terms of what you asked though, what I’ve just shared does hit the mark for what you just asked has nothing to do with wolves among sheep.

    You used the term “Good Shepherd” which is supposed to be Jesus, not a pastor in a church. Therefore identifying the “wolves” would have more to do with knowing who Jesus is and who He is not. His voice is put within us by way of having the Holy Spirit. Being so, we can discern what is of the Lord and what is not as long as we are walking in obedience to Him and His word, If not, then we can buy into things that are not scriptural. That is why it is so important to seach the scriptures, taking the whole counsel of God into consideration.

    As for identifying wolves among the sheep that is much more difficult because the wolves look so much like sheep. Remember, Scripture tells us that Jesus states the following in: Matt. 24:24.

    So what I would do is match up the description or criteria listed in the DSM with what Scripture has already told us. if nothing else to get a fuller picture on just how these person operate and are manifested. I often think about the latter days and think people will be fooled into being deceived. I think about the lack of church discipline and the many practices that are going on within church that even though scripture tells us to expose we ignore for the sake of “unity?” It reallly is all that difficult but when one does not want to rock the boat or speak the truth or stand up the abused the leaven will seep in and those practices that we are taught to put away are being practice by the very pastors and lay people that we have place our trust in. So, we all become paralyzed while the wolves take over and ravage us when we are supposed be wide awake.

    So, even though psychology, trinity, Bible, rapture, and so many other terms that are used to describe something that is in the scripture, we are remissed in not doing what we can to educate ourselves in being able to recognizse these things even if it means drawing form other sources that do uphold the scripture or rather agree with it.

    For instance read about King Saul and Samson. Match their behavior and the choices they made to the DSM, you will out that each of them was a narcissist of different types, but narcissist nevertheless.. And being such, there actions would have been very predictable by a human being. God already knew their heart, but we don’t have the knowledge that God does. We can only put 1 + 1 together and make a conclusion. That’s why He tells us we will know these by their fruits. But you have to know what fruits because with a PD person, you only see what they want you to see.

    That is also why we are not to lay hands to quickly upon one who thinks he is called to the ministry, Wolves dress up like sheep and rarely are they found out because of their ability to silence their victim and make it look as they are being victimized instead.

  113. Linda @ 101
    Please see my post @ 40

    Copied from Linda @101

    Would you consider a learning disability sin?
    Would you consider PTSD a sin?
    Would you consider depression a sin?
    Would you consider sexual dysfunction a sin?
    How about a mood disorder?
    Or grandiose delusions?
    Or, lets try tricholotosis (sp)?
    Or, obsessive compulive?
    or, schizophrenia of any type?
    or, schizoid.

    or, even developmentally disable
    or hearing impaired
    or speech impaired
    or autistic??????

    If you read my @49, I never implied any of these are sins.
    I believe most of what you listed above are symptoms based on aberrant physiology.
    They are not primary “diseases”-they are assessments based on symptoms.
    I am not saying they are not real, felt, or expressed deviations from the “norm”

    I dont think it is a fair playing ground when you are accusing me of stating that any of these are caused by sin, although all of this fallen world, including our mind, body and spirit are affected by this fallen world. This is not a redeemed world and we are experiencing the enemies battlefield which is the mind. Thats where the devil operates. No wonder we are seeing more and more Christians on mind altering med’s. Not because we are having a surge of “mental disease” but because the mind is subject to this fallen world…it’s toxins, a breakdown of the body as a whole, food that isn’t even food anymore, etc, etc.

    Also remember (just came to me but don’t have the verses right now) that someone asked Jesus who sinned..the child or his parents to bring on this affliction. Jesus said ..none, but that God be glorified.

    In His sovereign plans for this world, He alone has created some to be vessels for honor and some for vessels of destruction. Should the clay say to the potter “why have you formed me this way”?

    Well, I don’t have a personal grievance with counselors, but I know there is One Counselor who we can truly put our trust in. If you are one who can guide someone witht he scriptures, then God will use you as His voice through His Word.

  114. Linda,

    Please order Dave Hunts DVD “Psychology and the church” on Berean Calls website and watch it and maybe we can have a discussion on it.

  115. Hannah,

    I’m going to say pretty much the same thing that I said to you on another post of Alex. That is I don’t think you are really opened to taking in new information but are rather set on arguing your need to throw the benefits that psychology has proven to offer.

    My question stands as before: have you had a negative experience using the assistance of a clinical environment or are you riding on a teaching that psychology is anathema to scripture.

    I read your last post and unfortunaely what you think I have said, you simply have not heard. What more what I have stated is not what you have now rephrased. So, I would suggest you review all that I and Grateful have shared and consider what youcan come to an agrrement on and what you choose not to use for yourself. I have spent an inordinate amount of time providing answers to your questions and I have offered alternate ways of looking at things, always with the primary focus using the Bible as primary. I think we are now at the point where neither of us are helping anyone. I did not enter into this to debate with you but to add food for thought and consideration. I think you are robbing yourself of valuable information but like anything else, you have to make the choice of what worth it is to you. That’s not for me to decide. As for the Bible being sufficient and not adding to or taking away from it, you are taking this out of context. Would say that its wrogn for people to get an education. I hope not. The Lord told us that he has gifted us, but unless we developed those gifts, they cannot be exercise. Just as practicing the gift counseling within the context of studying human behavior we cannot broaden our understanding and more readily identify those who are hurting, suffering and or causing harm to another. That is not changing God’s Word. Not by a far cry.

    Unless you are sincere in the asking rather then what is really going on, I’m not interested.

  116. Andrew, thanks for the feedback and yes i think we do agree on this.

    Here’s 2 cents, what might I be apologizing for?

  117. Hannah,

    I lost the post that I just made so we may get both.

    I wish you had referened Dave Hunt’s material long before we got to this point. I have now and been aware of Dave’s material since the days I worked with Dr. Walter Martin and CRI. Even at that time I didn ot agree with what his position was, and as Dr. Martin also had problems with what Dave was stating, Dr. Martin like me took a far more objective position in light and balancing the Scripture.

    Dave has sold alot of material concerning his position, but as you wll know not everyone agrees with it. In my years as a Christian and as a clincial therapist I observed that one or two things happen when using scripture or and using psychology to get thto the heart of an issue.

    (1) fails to accept God’s word because they would need to repent and changed their lifestyle.

    (2) will discount the benefits of psychology because it gives them the excuse of hiding behind the cross and not dealing with the truth or coming to grips with it.

    So, all this time we were dealing from the desk of Dave Hunt——–LOL. Not at you because I can see how thoroughly you believe what he teaches. Dave only thinks he knows a lot about psychology when in fact he like others will establish his argument by loading the gun with partial information that will substantiate his argument. But there is far more information that he lasks or is unwilling to considered that leaves him at a disadvantage with those who disagrees with him.

    Unfortunately, you don’t have the information that I have that would make the difference or at least provide a more balance view. Perhaps you would like to get some information from the archives of Dr. Martin.

    Whatever is the case, I hope we can en this in peache and not have any hard feelings towards the other. .

  118. Actually it was TA McMahon not Dave Hunt that made that DVD
    And I did reference it before and posted the link.

  119. No Hard feelings.
    I just believe that you glossed over my comments..

    @110

    A worldview opposes a biblical view.If you read my @49, I never implied any of these are sins.
    I believe most of what you listed above are symptoms based on aberrant physiology.
    They are not primary “diseases”-they are assessments based on symptoms.
    I am not saying they are not real, felt, or expressed deviations from the “norm”
    A physical ailment needs a physical/medical determination.
    You don’t need spiritual regeneration for that.
    A “mental” assessment has already been determined by the Word of God.

    @113 If you read my @49, I never implied any of these are sins.
    I believe most of what you listed above are symptoms based on aberrant physiology.
    They are not primary “diseases”-they are assessments based on symptoms.
    I am not saying they are not real, felt, or expressed deviations from the “norm”

  120. Sorry, Hannah see the refences. Everything else came across if it originated from you.

    But that’s now that I know how you have formed your opinions and come to your conclusions. It make everything all the clearer to me. Which means, I am not going to involved myself in discussing a topic that I am well versed in as well as knowing Dave’s and His Partners position on this. As I said their argument is faulty base on incomplete and inaccurate information. It does sell books, however and make places a stumbling block in the way of many to get the help that is so readily available and that is able to align itself up with Scripture.

    This is not the place to go toe to toe with you, nor is my argument with you. So, I rest upon what I have tried to share with a right heart and an educated mind, first and foremost as a Christian and secondly as a clinician. What you do with this is entirely up to you. Shalom, in He who opens the mind to consider and to meditate upon those things that are true that He has provided through the gifting of others. Always but always placing these things under and in the Light of His Word.

  121. correction:

    Hannah, sorry I did not see the refences. Otherwise, I would have taken an entire different approach to this. That is I would have made a simple statement and just moved on. Or I would have asked you a few questions. At the same time, understand that this whole topic was posed as questions to me as a therapist, not to discuss the positon that Hunt and his partner holds or what he has published and which you are now espousing.

  122. Hanna,

    I looked back to see where you might have made a reference to anyone in our discourse with one another. There was nothing, at least I was able to find it. The reference I found was in #55 and it was talking about chemical imbalance with another person..

    I didn’t even enter in into much later. And when I did, I made one comment about narcissism which quite detail (as you noted later by saying you would have to read through my post) as i had already briefly gone around the bush with you on a another post and did not want to get pulled to the campaign to stomp out psychology.

    The bulk of the response I gave after this post had to do primarily with the questions that Andrew appeared to be genuinely interested in pursuing without an hidden agenda. There has been other people other than myself that has provided answers but none of especially were what it seem as though you wanted to hear.

    As I said your argument was not based on your own opinion but upon the opinion of a person who sold some material in the form of books and CD. Yet you posed them as if they came from you. I shut down shop with you, Hannah for the reasons already stated.

    I have no cause to argue with you over this. I am confident that what I do as a therapist is biblically balanced. What more, I am sure of it. Not all psychology is alike but the DSM is clear on enabling a pattern of thoughts and behaviors to be identified as a specific condition. It is not true that all people are prescribed medication. But it is true, I agreed with you on the other post that it is over used and this should not be so. So, you see we do not all come out with of the same pickle barrel that you would like put us back in.

    Like Dave Hunt and his partner, you are so bent of pushing your point you cannot take in additonal infomration that just might challenge the basis of your argument. At the same, i wasn’t here in the first place to play games with you, nor will I participate in yours.

    If you want to ask an honest about psychology, then I am available. Otherwise let’s move on to something else.

  123. Please overlook all the typos, I was trying to get through this and my system kept going offline on me. Hopefully it will be read in its proper order and make sense to the reader.

    As I tried to say in my last line, if you have genuine honest question, them I will be happy to share as a Christain and a person who is a clinician as well. If this rubs you wrong or don’t jive with what you would like to believe given some other person’s belief that psychology ought to be thrown out, then I am not the person to discuss this with, not on this forum anyway.

  124. Linda,

    You may be off by now. I have been offline for a couple of days. My diverticulosis flared up and other more pressing issues of life. By the way, to those who don’t know. The diverticulosis is not a psychological malady but an intestinal one. Although, at times I wish it was psychological so that I could get talked out of it instead of going through the pain of it…… LOL

    Linda and Grateful, truly, I understand where you are coming from. I get the physical realities of the brain and its abilities to malfunction. Should a physical science be able to identify the issue with some crossed wiring, great. Should they be able to fix it, all the better. Furthermore, I understand the terminology being used to elaborate behavioral characteristics in a manner that better describes the actions of a person. I don’t have a problem with that, truly.

    Linda, when I discussed, biogenomic transfer, or epigenomic transfer, the focal point of the findings were actually to express what was found out in keeping with what scripture recognizes. (I don’t think we would be in disagreement.) What makes it so interesting is that they have found that early life experiences, even to the degree of stress on a pregnant mother, or the lack thereof, has a part in affecting the DNA of a given person. The study claims that it can be identified within the DNA strand.

    What I find interesting is what we are all aware of, biblically, that at the fall of man the spirit died. The fallen nature of man is then passed from Adam and Eve on to their descendants (all of us). Though incapable of recognizing what a spiritually dead DNA looks like (I think you’ll get my drift) the deteriorated man digressed. However, what is recognized is the variable towards man’s ability to sustain a sound conscience and sound moral behavior is his closeness to God’s word. At the end of Gen. Ch. FOUR we see that man began to seek God. Into Gen. ch SIX we see that God’s heart is grieved and wishes he never made man because his every thought and action was only evil. Even though, by word of mouth, God’s word had departed from man and his depraved mind dominated who he would become, a wretched individual. The NT emphasizes this in Rom. ONE. It is man’s decision to avoid God’s law therfore allowing himself to harden his heart towards all things about the goodness of God. (I believe this happens in degrees based upon what the word teaches.)

    However, in direct connection with the above topic the study should be in the category of the conscience. It is a desire that those doing right or wrong give themselves over to it.

    One TIM 4:ONE and TWO Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    It is the fallen nature of man, his natural depravity since spiritual death, that leaves the door wide open for desiring doctrines that come from fallen (demonic) spirits. This deception comes upon man easily because his desire is for self gratification. In some cases, thats at any cost. This is the reason we see some who can, without any concern, perform such behaviors including things beyond what we care to discuss. David recognized this and wrote, “Thy word have I hidden in my heart that I might not sin against thee.” Notice he wrote “might not”. He knew his fallen nature and couldn’t write “would not”.

    A Christian clinician would recognize the origin of depraved behavior. (This is not to include a physical malady of the brain or nervous sytem, etc.) Although having conversation through counseling (Which the bible equivicates as accountability, discipleship and relationships) an emphasis on the clients need to be in the word should be prescribed. The word testifies of itself that the need for man to hear God’s word is immeasurable. It does state that the true desire of man will be found out in whether he chooses to listen to the word or harden his heart.

    Linda, earlier you stated,

    “Like so, pastors that become educated in domestic violence, addiction, and yes, even pathology can be more equip to protect and to defend their flock, Just as the flock can protect themselves fro these types of pastors. What it does is enable them to grasp the reality that they may have bought into a lie that only serves this predator instead of the real victim that has been erroneously thrown under the bus instead. What it does is cause every one to use cautioun when reinstating or reconciling with such an offender. What is does is reduce the leaven in the church and protect our women and children, What it does is lift the blinders from the eyes that were seduced into believing what is not, but what is on an appearance of godliness instead.”

    This statement epitomizes the concerns of those in disagreement with you. I would be included. In it you clearly identify an education in sciences beyond that of scripture to be beneficial to “equip” the pastor beyond that which the scripture states;

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly equipped unto all good works. (second timothy three 16, 17)

    Would you like to take a guess at what perfect and thoroughly equipped means. You stated that you were a trained apologist. The word of God is what Paul is professing thoroughly equips.

    Earlier I stated that my concern was the development of a helegian dialectic. Through your exposition that is exactly what has taken place. Here is a simplification of the format

    1. The Word of God is preeminent.
    2. I believe the Word of God is preeminent.
    3. The Word of God is preeminent but allows for a broadening of terminology to help us understand what it is saying. (Interpretation/exposition) (Up to this point you are okay, maybe.)
    4. There are better ways to express what the Word of God has to say.
    5. The Word of God lacks sufficiency to communicate what needs to be addressed.
    6. The Word of God is insufficient to address our needs.
    7. A newly developed truth is born.
    8. The significance of the Word of God is diminished.

    Without you realizing it that is exactly what has taken place. All you need to do is reread back through all of your posts and you will see that each point I have made is found throughout your posts.

    I, like the majority posting on this site, do not want to start wars, or make enemies. I hope we can continue to dialogue. But my greatest concern is holding to the truth of God’s word. I have, before knowing you, taken your advice. I have educated myself on a number of fronts, in a number of sciences. I find consistently, that at some point in time, they more often than not, try to supercede scripture. It is a sad reality, but a reality non the less.

  125. Linda,

    Let me restate; I believe that your education is beneficial and useful to the glory of God. I am not extreme in my conclusions to think otherwise. However, it should be utilized under the authority of God and His word as adjunct.

  126. Linda, I thought you could apologize to Hannah because I think you pretty much came down pretty hard on her in post 101 which I think was not fair to Hannah’s view point. Its just my observation.

    Another observation is that you analyze people and characters from the Bible that you have never met. For instance you have called Samson and King Saul both Narcissists. Why can’t you leave God’s Word alone and not jump to your psychological conclusions about men in the bible. For goodness sakes, you haven’t even met these men. I personally don’t think a good clinician should ever do this.

    Now a third observation, you have been pontificating endlessly about psychology. Do you have any other interests in life? I’m just getting quite tired of it all. I’m not against the mental health care field. Quite the contrary but your posts are way too long as Hannah already pointed out.

  127. Andrew,

    I should probably take your advice. I became long winded a couple of posts ago.

  128. Raymond,in 124, What an awesome response.

  129. Thanks Andrew.

    Now if I can learn to say it in fewer words…… lol

  130. Linda @122

    I did post that DVD, and it was obviously on another thread since you have posted not only on this thread about psychology.

    You stated: “As I said your argument was not based on your own opinion but upon the opinion of a person who sold some material in the form of books and CD. Yet you posed them as if they came from you. I shut down shop with you, Hannah for the reasons already stated. ”

    You “shut down shop” with me? Wow….
    I hope you are not psychoanalyzing me and I don’t think you have the authority to state what my argument is. I shared a resource that would be educational, is on opposition to what you have been “promoting”, as far as the origins of psychology, and it’s opposition to the God and His Word. It appears that you haven’t recieved anything I wrote on the subject of medical conditions vs “mental” conditions. You know nothing of my background, and it would be less subjective if my “opinions” were not involved, so whereas you give much creedence to your own “opinions”, I don’t. MY statements are based on fact. Based on physiology, which is objective in diagnosis, yours on psychology, which is subject to man and his wisdom apart from God. You have not even agreed that some “mental disease” is a result of medical conditions far removed from the brain, and a secondary effect of organic disease, as much as I have given example.

    If you would like some medical publications to support all that I have been saying, I will gladly post them for you from pubmd, and other recognized medical journals which are recognized by the medical field.. I can send you endless studies on schizophrenia and how diet affects the mind. I needed to challenge you because I don’t believe the conversation should be one sided with you stated by yourself as an expert in the mental health field, especially since you did not go to medical school and have no authority to make medical diagnosis.

  131. PS. I meant to address this statement:”
    Yet you posed them as if they came from you. I shut down shop with you, Hannah for the reasons already stated. ”

    ALL of my comments have come from me. I have not pasted anyone else’s comments. So when you imply that my comments did not come from me, you are mistaken.
    My comments come from my own knowledge of the things I write about.

    RaymondD: Great post.
    You may want to check out the Specific Carbohydrate Diet for the diverticulitis. Do a Google search. Elaine Gottschall wrote a book called “Ending the Viscious Cycle”. He daughter had bleeding colon in the 60’s, and a NY pediatrican who specialized in Celiac Disease cured her by this diet. The daughter used to hallucinate (now was this a “mental illness?) at night and have seizures. They wanted to remove her entire colon at 6. She was cured in 2 years. Dr. Natasha Campbell who is a neurosurgeon in the UK had a son born with autism (Is this also a “mental disease” Linda??) and cured him and now instead of brain surgery, Dr. Campbell only sees autistic kids and they are cured with her own version of the diet (called GAP diet). You can see viedos of her on Youtube if you Google her name.

    Dr. Terry Wahl is an MD who has “cured” herself of M.S. through diet. M.S. has a host of symptoms, one which is depression, mood swings, and “mental” issues.

    Linda, Google her name and you will learn much about foods and their affect on physiology, and the brain.

    Autoimmune disease is on the rise, because the body is attacking it’s own tissues, INCLUDING the brain.

  132. This is probably my last post on this thread. I really think Raymond hit the nail on the head. All science is trumped by scripture. This even includes the physical concrete sciences. If you go to medical school now, part of the curriculum seems to be understanding evolutionary biology. Instead of looking at any science through the lens of scripture there appears to be a tendency to view scripture through the lens of the science. If you consider the biologos website this appears to be exactly what they are doing. The same goes with psychology. There is nothing wrong with trying to bring meaning to the science of psychology through the lens of scripture but it is quite a different matter all together to try to view scripture through the lens of psychology. Scripture properly understood needs to be through the lens of scripture itself. Scripture interprets scripture. I am not against psychology. I also not against the medical profession. However my concern is along with Raymonds that there appears to be an erosion of the Word of God.

  133. Please forgive me for bringing up the subject, I had no intention of getting us off of Alex’s topic. It looks to me that Linda commented on my posts and then responded to the various challenges she was given; therefore, I think it would be unfair to characterize her as only having one topic of interest.

    I appreciate the discussion, and especially appreciate that it was fairly civil throughout; however, if there is any attention given to any less than gracious tones, then it must be given to both sides. I think we all agree our desire is to be gracious to one another and that we all have a level of respect for each other as we TOGETHER join to call Bob Grenier, Calvary Chapel leadership (starting with Chuck Smith), to repentance. I continue to appreciate the various perspectives brought to the table, and respect that there is some room for disagreement before Scripture is actually compromised.

    I wish I could explain just why this subject was on my mind, but I can’t right now. The police are coming to make an arrest of the one who has lied to us immensely, stolen money from women at our church, tried to manipulate money from elders in our Bible study, stolen from us, and oh so much more. He was TOTALLY convincing that he was repentant and seeking God. Turns out he was reading sermons and repeating what he’d heard to convince us.

    He’s very good at what he does. VERY GOOD.

    While it’s been difficult, God has taken excellent care of us and provided all that we have needed and then some. We are grateful to be able to warn the local churches that he’s been cruising for victims. The judge even thanked us for our part in all this. She said that these types of people fly just under the radar and are able to continue wrecking lives without getting caught.

    Today is the most difficult day of the entire 4 month experience, and I ask for your prayers. Thank you!

  134. wow… lots of ideas, lots of good thoughts…

    i appreciate the dialogue and discussion of those who know much more than i do about this subject (honestly not being snide about that), but.. and this is my last thought, (caveat: this is not attacking or a response to any particular commenter or even to the conversation itself so please don’t misapply this as a personal attack. as i said, it is not meant as such)

    the danger in throwing around technical and medical/psychiatric labels to deal with what the Word of God would call sins of behavior and character worthy only of Repentance and Restoration is that labels only have the ability to … well, label. and they rarely have the ability to confront the ‘root’ of the issues or lead to a solution to the problems.

    psychiatric labels tend to root in ‘genetics’ or ‘chemical imbalance’ and ignore at best and reject forcefully at worst the persons responsibility (whatever the extent of that is) in both the genesis of the behavior or personality/character traits and the reversal/resolution of those in the future.

    ‘it’s not their fault or responsibility’ is the starting point in most cases and the ‘solution’ is seen as either drugs (temporary or permamnent or temporary that turns into permanent) or blame shifting or trying to find some arcane root in the past to supposedly make us more comfortable about our own lack of responsibility for today and moving forward.

    i know this is probably too general and may not fit all specifics, but lables don’t do anything but ‘label’ and give the false impression that since we label it, we know what it is and can treat it as a non-personal and responsibility free ‘disease’.

    i for one find this approach less than helpful when i talk to the guys i cousel who are mistreating their wives, thinking of suicide, ‘addicted’ to drugs or alcohol. or ‘just can’t do’/ ‘just can’t stop’ doing something else that God’s Word says they must. most of the time, it’s not can’t but won’t.
    with personality issues, most of the time it’s also they won’t change because they have been told they can’t and they are dumb enough to believe it.

    we have resources as Born Again believers in Christ, in the Word of God and the Holy Spirit that most christians have no idea of and are not relying on. instead, we trust in Labels, Drugs, and well meaning, humanistic, sin coddling, responsibility shifting pseudo-scientists when what we really NEED is a call to repentance, restoration and ‘conformity to the image of Christ’ for these monsters who abuse others in the name of Christ.

    sorry it was so long, but i needed to get that off my chest.
    -mike

  135. Grateful, I will keep everything in prayer. When you mentioned the police with an arrest it really sounds like things are really heating up. I imagine Alex will have another thread up shortly with this news.

  136. Grateful, wow.

    If and when you are able (and are willing), let me know what’s going on.

  137. Grateful,

    My wife and I will keep you in prayer and I will pass along to those in our fellowship a continuance to keep you both up in prayer as you go through this. The Lord wil use you to glorify His name by the way you conduct yourselves. It is our blessing to have met you and see what the Lord has done within that time.

    May the Lord continue to richly bless you both.

  138. Hey everyone, thanks for praying. The man ended up not being arrested on Friday, as was originally planned. It was tense the whole day and we had to be there, uncertain as to whether or not he’d be violent when he found out we were taking his keys to enforce the eviction. He was not violent, thankfully. As he started to get puffed up, we had others show up at the house as a way to diffuse him. I think he was finally so spent emotionally and physically that he handed over the keys and left a lot of his stuff there.

    No, this is not Calvary Chapel related, other than what we’ve learned through watching this type of man (who shares many of the same general characteristics as our former CC pastor.) To me, this man appears to be a deliberate wolf in sheeps clothing, who is in the beginning stages of learning how to speak the Christianeez in order to bilk money out of widowed women with a life insurance payout, along with bleeding dry unsuspecting generous old people in churches. His normal day job includes many well documented (in the courts) ponzi schemes to the tune of millions.

    We had to interface with this man up close for 4 months. In the beginning, he sounded just like he was in serious repenting mode, telling us the “God is humbling me,” etc… He would even tell us he was reading scripture and tell us what he learned from it, how God spoke to him through it. It was months later that we realized he’d been listening to us very carefully and mirroring back to us what he picked up from us that we valued. As for the Bible lessons and “God speaking” … he had been reading a book of sermons and using illustrations from it claiming them as his own. He was smooth.

    By the time we began to catch on, we were astounded at how many similarities there were between this man and our former pastor. The key, though, is that neither man repented in deed. They said lots of words that sounded right, or at least close, but no actions were taken to actually make things right with those whom they had defrauded.

    Though no arrest was made last Friday, I’ve been assured there will be one forthcoming, soon. One arrest is for pocketing the money from subletters and not paying the rent to the owner of the home. Another arrest is for a series of ponzi schemes … opened and shut 5 businesses in just 4 months, never paying anyone … even employees!) He gets young one fresh from college and tells them they have to prove themselves first and then he’ll pay them six figures. They put in the time, till they realize he’s never going to pay them and they quit. The man just gets more graduates begging for a job to work for free.

    4 times this man has married women for their money and then the women realize he’s a crook and leave. Step-kids get destroyed in the process. Women lose all their money.

    Judging by the destruction left in his wake, jail sounds like the right place for this man. But his crimes are such that people like him usually fly just under the radar and get away with their type of stealing … just like my last pastor. (He isn’t being forced to pay back the money he stole, only pay taxes on one year of his stealing.)

    This is the world’s way of doing things … this is not how it should be in the church. My ex-pastor should not share the same general characteristics with this man.

  139. I just posted another article on David Rosales where he responded to my initial warning –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/09/calvary-chapels-david-rosales-responds.html

  140. Alex,

    There is a comment of mine waiting for moderator approval. #140. If you don’t want to post, not a problem just let me know by email–okay? Thanks LP

  141. I posted the last article about David Rosales. This is the first (that I know of) documented series of articles where a pastor was warned about a wolf with the documented proof, the pastor acknowledged receiving the documentation, the pastor did nothing, the proof of what the pastor allowing the wolf to his flock, and what the wolf gave the flock –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/09/ephesians-511-blog-witnesses-jerry.html

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