Jan 212011
 

Calvary Chapel Caldwell, led by Pastor Bob Larson, sued by former employee who alleges wrongful termination for reporting sexual abuse of a minor child, against the administration's wishes.

On November 8, 2010, Attorneys representing Ramona Roesler of Nampa, Idaho, filed a lawsuit against Calvary Chapel Caldwell dba Calvary Kids Learning Center in Caldwell, Idaho. Pastor Bob Larson is the Affiliated Lead Pastor of Calvary Chapel Caldwell.

According to the suit, Roesler was hired by Calvary Kids on or about February 23, 2010. The suit alleges that on May 17, 2010, a minor child attending Calvary Kids advised Roesler that she had been touched in her genital area by relatives and that her genital area hurt and had bled.

The suit further alleges that same day, Roesler reported the information to Shannon Barron the acting Director of Calvary Kids and that Roesler informed Barron that the matter needed to be reported to the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare.

According to Roesler, Barron advised that instead of contacting IDHW, it was her intention to contact the minor child’s parents regarding this matter. Roesler reiterated that IDHW must be contacted regarding the matter, according to the suit.

Roesler states that on the same day, May 17, 2010, she completed a Calvary Kids Incident/Accident Report documenting the information provided by the minor child.

At approximately 6:45pm that evening, Roesler left a voicemail for Barron in which she again reiterated the need to report the matter to IDHW. In the same voicemail, Roesler stated that it was her belief that she and Barron were Mandatory Reporters under Idaho state law, according to the suit.

Roesler says the next day, she once again spoke with Barron and told her she believed they were required to report the suspected abuse to IDHW.

According to the suit, Barron then advised Roesler that, per Calvary Kids’ protocol, the administration would have a second meeting with the minor child’s parents. Additionally, Barron told Roesler that Calvary Kids’ administration had instructed them to not contact IDHW. Roesler then insisted that the matter must be reported to IDHW that day and told Barron that if someone from Calvary Kids didn’t report the matter, she would make a report.

That evening, the suit alleges, Roesler was advised by Barron that IDHW informed Calvary Kids to abide by the public school policy regarding the reporting of suspected child abuse.

Roesler alleges that the next day, May 19, 2010, she contacted the Area Director of Elementary Schools for the Caldwell School District and was advised that the individual teacher who observed potential abuse must report the matter to IDHW.

According to Roesler, she reported the potential abuse to the IDHW on May 21, 2010.

On May 24, 2010, the minor child advised Roesler that a relative continued to touch her genital area. Roesler then reported that information to the IDHW that same day, according to the suit.

On May 25, 2010, investigators from the IDHW arrived at Calvary Kids to conduct an investigation regarding the report filed by Roesler. That same day, the suit asserts, Barron asked Robert (Bob) Larson, Pastor of Calvary Chapel Caldwell, if anything should be done about the alleged abuse being reported to the IDHW. Barron also advised Larson that it was her belief that it was Roesler who reported the abuse.

According to Roesler, on May 27, 2010, she informed Barron that she had made two reports to the IDHW regarding the minor child.

On May 28, 2010, Calvary Kids terminated Roesler’s employment, according to the suit.

Chad Nicholson of the Rossman Law Group in Boise, Idaho, says he cannot comment on the suit, but confirms that there has been no settlement to date and that, “we are in communication with opposing counsel.”

Bob Larson, Pastor of Calvary Chapel Caldwell, stated that the lawsuit has no merit and that his Administrator at Calvary Kids followed Calvary Chapel Caldwell’s protocol.

Larson agreed that as the Lead Pastor of Calvary Chapel Caldwell, Inc., he is the person in charge and controls the assets of the Corporation, which includes Calvary Kids.

Responding to a question if he would have handled the situation any differently, Larson said, “Yes, I would. I would have handled the firing of the employee differently. In fact, we have changed some parts of our policies in that area.” He went on to say that he would handle a future child abuse situation the same way as before and that, “we followed the proper protocol.”

Larson further stated that IDHW told him he handled the situation correctly and that IDHW found the minor child’s statements to be false. Larson stated, “She says these things all the time.”

When asked if he would settle the suit, or if he would fight it, since he believed he and Calvary Chapel Caldwell didn’t do anything wrong, Larson stated that Insurance handles these matters and they would decide how to proceed.

According to Nicholson, Roesler’s Attorney, he was not aware if Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa was involved in the suit or had knowledge of it.

Roesler_v_Calvary_Chapel_Caldwell

 Posted by at 10:42 pm

  133 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Caldwell Sued, Allegations Leadership Ignored Repeated Attempts to Report Child Sexual Abuse resulting in the Whistle-blowing employee being Fired”

  1. Lets’ see. Church policy as set by the sr. pastor vs. state law for mandatory reporting. Which should have precedence? Duh. Another case of an unaccoutable CC pastor blowing the decision and declaring he would do it again!

    “Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
    We’re so glad could attend, come inside, come inside
    There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass
    Be careful as you pass, move along, move along

    Come inside, the show’s about to start
    Guaranteed to blow your head apart
    Rest assured you’ll get your money’s worth
    The greatest show in Heaven, Hell or Earth
    You’ve got to see the show,it’s a dynamo
    You’ve got to see the show,”

    Emerson , Lake & Palmer

  2. “When asked if he would settle the suit, or if he would fight it, since he believed he and Calvary Chapel Caldwell didn’t do anything wrong, Larson stated that Insurance handles these matters and they would decide how to proceed.”

    So the insurance company is the “client” of the law firm it hired to represent the church? I thnk not. The church and Mr. larson decides all matters in the lawsujit, including whether to settle. The insurance makes recommendations but THE CHURCH IS THE CLIENT. Nice spin Mr Lason, if you are nefarious and, in the laternative, if not, then you are ill-infromed once again.

    This ladies and gentilemen is Moses according to the CC model.

    “Welcome to the Show.” It never ends (seemingly) and is guaranteed to blow you mind.

  3. …And the Green Weenie Award Ceremony has been extended due to addition nominations…

  4. Sheck, ya, I thought that part was sketchy from Bob Larson.

    I will say this, I was surprised he spoke with me…he was pretty candid. He hedged a little, but answered most of the questions pretty directly. He did dodge a couple of issues…but all-in-all he was pretty candid.

    The issue I’m concerned about is that if the allegations have any merit…it shows a reluctance on the part of a Calvary Chapel Pastor to err on the side of the Victim…a little girl in this case.

    REPORT, REPORT, REPORT! And let the Authorities sort it out.

    And, don’t fire an Employee who insists on Reporting Abuse. That has a Chilling Effect and leads to more Abuse, IMO.

    If, as Bob Larson claims, there is no Merit to Roesler’s Lawsuit and that she’s lying about what happened…as Larson intimates…then he should fight it and clear his name.

    This is the part of the conversation I found sketchy. He quickly passed off the responsibility to the Insurance Company, as if he had no say in whether to fight or settle.

    He said he’d do exactly the same thing over again with regards to how Calvary Chapel Caldwell handled the Reporting of the Sexual Abuse allegations of the Child…the only thing he’d do different was in how they fired the Employee, Roesler.

    If that’s true, and Roesler is lying, then he should fight the suit, IMO.

    If he handled things wrong, he should be forthright and say, “I screwed up. I apologize. I learned a good lesson and will change the way we do things from here forward with regards to these kinds of issues.” Then settle the suit, pay the woman and move on.

    Unfortunately, from my experiences, if I had to make a judgment call…Larson sounds like he’s hedging and protecting his reputation, rather than owning a possible error in judgment.

    Passing it off on the Insurance Company is pretty weak and potentially telling, IMO.

  5. I do have a mutual friend of Bob Larson.

    The guy tells me Bob is a good guy and has a long history of being a good guy in a lot of areas.

    I don’t disbelieve my friend. However, Bob Larson is fallible and may have screwed this one up. If he did, he should repent immediately. Get on the phone with the opposing Counsel, apologize, settle within the Insurance Policy, issue a statement that he learned a lesson from this incident and will do a better job from here forward in being sensitive to the issue of Child Abuse…and do a better job of reporting right away…without an Employee having to hound him and hound him and then break his chain-of-command.

    I doubt that will happen. It’ll probably get settled and swept under the rug…and life goes on.

    Bob, if you’re reading this, if you truly didn’t do anything wrong and handled this situation with regards to protecting the Child in the right manner, then fight the suit. If you terminated the employee because of her persistence with regard to this matter and it ticked you off…repent and make it right.

    If you didn’t do anything wrong…then stand up to her and her attorney…a jury of your peers will review the evidence and make a determination of who is righteous in this matter.

  6. I could be wrong, but I believe that most mandatory reportewr laws require reporting of abuse of a minor if a reasonable person would conclude from the evdience and infromation before thyem, that abuse could “potentially” have occurred, with the reporter required to err on the side of caution and reporting. If a mandatory fails to report, then they are subject to both criminal and civil liability (from the child and her family).

    So, for a new employee to feel the pressure to report despite her supervisor’s or sr. pastor’s determination otherwise is appropriate. You see, it’s just NOT THEIR CALL. This is the way I handled things at the mothership for MCA and Geen Valley Lake issues.

    To terminate that employee for insubordination in the face of a mandatory reporting requirement when the employee reasonably feels is in play is egregious, even if the sr. pastor is a “good guy.” Doubt the satff at Caldwell got any or good outside counsel on the matter before executing the termination. The Calvary way.

  7. I can only speak for the states I have lived in, but none of them exempted a pastor from reporting child abuse. I suspect Idaho is the same. It isn’t an option and I do not believe there is a biblical admonish to ignore this rule. This is not an area where the church can usurp the authority of the authority of the government.

  8. The law is the law; you’re required to report allegations of child abuse. I don’t understand why they think they didn’t need to report it.

  9. Well, if you don’t have to really follow the Bible’s requirements for leadership, if the men are above that, then maybe they are also above the law, as well?

    If I am always right, I’m always in control, then does the law recognize my greatness and infalibility?

  10. j2p, totally agree.

    The CC Pastor is not on an Island and not above the law…even if he thinks there’s no merit to the claims of the little girl.

    At issue (from what I can piece together from the Lawsuit and my conversation with Larson) is that Roesler claims she had to (in essence) force Calvary Chapel’s hand in reporting what she was told (twice) by the little girl…and that she was fired because of pushing the issue.

    Larson claims that his Administrator (Barron) and Calvary Chapel (de facto “him”) followed their protocol to the “t” with regards to this issue and handled it properly and that IDHW deemed that there was no molestation going on.

    There’s quite a discrepancy in the two versions of the Story.

    I’d like to see this go before a Jury and get all the cards on the table so we can see who is full of you-know-what in this matter.

    My guess is that Larson will settle and point the finger at the Insurance Company…saying it wasn’t his call…but that Roesler is a liar and the devil is out to get him, etc etc…but he’ll still settle rather than risking what may be the Truth coming out in open Court.

    Based on my experiences with Pastors and CC, that’s the most likely outcome. Larson gets the issue behind him and can still save face with the “faithful” and paint Roesler as a troublemaker and a liar…without having to go to Court where Larson is not in control and Roesler’s claims might be proven to be true.

    If Larson is truly innocent and Roesler is a total liar, I’d like to see Larson defend himself and take a stand for the Truth in this matter.

    The underlying issue for me is that if Calvary Chapel would have swept this situation under the rug had Roesler not pushed so hard…that would be egregious…and to fire Roesler for it would not only be wrong…but goes toward furthering Abuse by sending a message to others who work for Calvary Chapel that if you report and push the Leadership…you could be fired, too.

    Wrong message, if true.

  11. The issue here is simply this: If an employee is compelled to take action under the criminal laws of the State of Idaho (Mandatory Reporter), can that employee be terminated due to insubordination or failing to follow the “protocol”/procedures of the employer?

    Larson’s comment/defense as to the fact the IDHW found no grounds for the claim of abuse is absolutely irrelevant to the issue stated above.

    The church is dead in the water. I will restate that what is egregious here is that the leadership of a church placed one of its employees (a Believer) in an absolutely untenable position when it could have chosen not to. Can you imagine being put in that position? What if this time the child’s complaint had merit? Either the employee faces possible criminal proceedings/sanctions for failing to report or faces the inevitable hostility and retaliatory actions of the church. Folks, this is a church under the rule of Scripture as to how to treat people, including employees. Shame on them. They are not alone of course.

  12. The One With Truth and Clarity:

    Very well put. Are you am attorney? Couldn’t agree with you more. But watch out for that Doug guy. He may try to find out who you really are.

  13. While all of this wrangling is interesting and pertinent, my sympathies go out to this child. If the allegations are true who will stand for her? If they are not true, what is this child going through that she needs to make up such stories? Who will stand for this child?

  14. “The church is dead in the water. I will restate that what is egregious here is that the leadership of a church placed one of its employees (a Believer) in an absolutely untenable position when it could have chosen not to. Can you imagine being put in that position? What if this time the child’s complaint had merit? Either the employee faces possible criminal proceedings/sanctions for failing to report or faces the inevitable hostility and retaliatory actions of the church. Folks, this is a church under the rule of Scripture as to how to treat people, including employees. Shame on them. They are not alone of course.”

    TOTC, I am in total agreement with your statement. I have been in the same position as Roesler, but within the educational system. The protocol was plain and simple. If a teacher even strongly suspected a child was being abused or neglected a form was filled out and it was reported to the principal, who in turn reported it to the Dept. of Health and Welfare. In my case the Dept. stated they were unable to find sufficient evidence such as fresh bruising, but that is a whole other story! I am so outraged by all of this and am sick of pastors like bob, Cardelli, Reis and the list goes on and on for hiding under the infamous wings of the CC dove!
    Jlo, your comment is very sadly true. The system is overwhelmed and under staffed allowing thousands of cases to slide through the cracks. This child who IMO may very likely being abused, who will be her voice? I am sickened by the thought of this abuse continuing and her being swallowed up in a silent scream!

  15. jlo:

    Don’t get me wrong. Doing what is right by the child, who may have been abused, from a human and scriptural POV far outweights the issue of the lawsuit. Of course. I merely wanted to address that another victim is involved, the former employee.

  16. Having been friends with someone whose daughter was molested, I have nothing but disrespect for this pastor’s position. It is common knowledge that children don’t just make things like this up, and for him to assert that he has the knowledge that the child was not abused is just plain arrogant. Shame on this man and the way he handled the situation. It is clear that all he cared about was protecting the reputation of the church.

  17. Well, One With Truth and Clarity, I think you made it pretty clear!

  18. I thought one of the points of mandatory reporter laws was to take the responsibility of deciding the merits of a claim out of the hands of untrained people and put them into those of people who have been trained to investigate and accertain whether a claim of abuse is true or not. CC not reporting the abuse means they’re ignoring the whole point of the law.

  19. Sheck, there are many victims in this situation, as awful as this whole thing is; my heart goes out to this young girl. You and Alex are not wrong in your pointing out the hypocrisies within the CC system, they bother me also.

    I’m not convinced one way or the other that this child was sexually abused. What I am convinced of is this child is crying out for help. If she is making false accusations why? What else is going on that she feels the need to make up stories? What bothers me is the Sr. Pastors statement that “she says these things all the time” What the heck, if a child is giving false accusations all the time, shouldn’t you try to find out why?

    I personally know someone who was falsely accused of sexual crimes against a minor, what a nightmare. It turns out the minor thought it would go better for her if her mother thought it was a grown man who impregnated her instead of her teenage boyfriend.

    I also ministered to a teenager who liked to tell other teens that she was going to commit suicide; she was seeking attention that she did not receive from her parents. She had a stable family life per say, but her parents were so wrapped up in the “church” that their daughter was drowning. Oh and lest I forget her father was an assistant pastor on staff.

    So this whole thing bothers me on many levels.

    Who will stand for this girl?

    Hopefully the powers that be at CC Caldwell are reading and responding to this young girls needs.

  20. jlo, I agree…the Child is the most important part of this…and you REPORT, REPORT, REPORT…and second-guess later. Let the Authorities do their job…and err on the side of protecting the Child.

    If Roesler’s take on what happened is true, then she should be admired and affirmed for doing the right thing, despite the pressure from CC.

    If she was fired because she pushed so hard in her efforts to protect this Child, then shame on Calvary Chapel Caldwell and Larson for doing so.

    If Bob Larson is right and Roesler is lying…then I hope he fights to correct the record (and then shame on Roesler).

  21. Alex, agreed.

  22. I saw this link on PP as i don’t contribute to this site. But I have to say something here: Bob Larsen is exactly the opposite of the CC pastor you complain about here. He is not a power-crazed CEO type. He is not only a good man, he is a Godly man who loves his flock and would never put his personal interests above those of his people–especially a child. But…

    As pastors, we receive reckless and false allegations of all kinds of things. In my church, I would expect that an allegation be evaluated extensively (and immediately) and, if there is any possibility of it being true, we report. I would also expect the employee involved to trust the judgment of those doing the investigation. Ar my church, I have a licensed child psychologist (ph.d) who interviews those involved to determine whether or not reporting to CPS is necessary. That is her job and her relationship with local authorities is excelent, built on relationship and mutual trust. Bob would do the same thing. The problem is that people who make repeated allegations are not credible and reporting incredible allegations can ruin innocent lives. It is not ours to err on the side of the victiml it is ours to protect all innocent victims. Bob Larsen is a great guy and protective pastor. You guys here of off-base on this one. Way off…

  23. To fyi: I don’t agree with you on the reporting thing at all, you do not have the choice to decide on your own. You always, always report and then let the authorities decide. You were not there and you can NOT just decide on your own whether it is truth or not. NO, you REPORT, REPORT, REPORT.

    If this little girl said those things, then something happened to her somewhere! Children in their innocence don’t make up stuff like that. They just don’t, unless they see something or something has been done to them.

    I don’t know this pastor so I can’t comment on him personally, but if he lagged on the reporting or told someone not to report, that was not a very smart thing to do. Makes me wonder if the child’s parents were in leadership there or active in the church somehow.

  24. Fyi you said, ” I would also expect the employee involved to trust the judgment of those doing the investigation.” What kind of comment is this? Are you kidding me? You guys all sound the same. To answer you question or statement, “NO”. I don’t care who goes to your church, you report the incident!

    Sometimes I just sit here and shake my head. Wow, you guys can be so arrogant.

  25. fyi,
    Your point is well taken, and I understand what you are saying. I don’t know about where you live and I don’t know about Idaho, but I do know in the state which I reside, there is not the option to do an extensive, in-house evaluation to determine whether reporting is warranted. The requirement is to report. That’s the law.

  26. To fyi: And one more thing about your comment “I would also expect the employee involved to trust the judgment of those doing the investigation”, we, the people expect the pastors and those in leadership to do the right thing!

    This woman also shouldn’t have been fired for pushing the issue either. So she does the right thing and looses her job? What the blank? Do you guys even see the problem at all?

  27. It fires me up, that you pastors ralley around your own and try to make excusses for your selves. It’s a sick thing. You want to protect yourselves from false allegations? Set up an appropriate system to keep YOU (the pastors) in check.

    Sorry if this sounds harsh, just sick of the “I’m above the law” attitude.

  28. I know who fyi is. He’s one of the good Pastors in CC, IMO. His intentions, I believe, are honorable…but that’s my opinion of him. I have limited direct personal experience with him…but that experience has been good (even though I don’t agree with him regarding the more personal matter that’s well-documented).

    fyi, my mutual friend of Bob Larson has said pretty much the same thing. Bob appears to be a decent guy and not a power-hungry, child abusing, money-grubbing, authoritarian jerk…but he sure seems to be off on this situation with Roesler and the young girl, IMO.

    I had a direct conversation with Larson. I had a direct conversation with opposing Counsel. I’ve read the Lawsuit several times over.

    Something doesn’t add up. Any equation I come to doesn’t come out well in this matter.

    Your alleging (as Bob Larson did) that this was a little girl who “Cries Wolf” all the time…therefore she shouldn’t be believed. I wonder who gave Bob that information? The parents? The “relative” that’s referenced in the Lawsuit?

    Pardon me for being a bit skeptical.

  29. fyi said, “As pastors, we receive reckless and false allegations of all kinds of things. In my church, I would expect that an allegation be evaluated extensively (and immediately) and, if there is any possibility of it being true, we report. I would also expect the employee involved to trust the judgment of those doing the investigation.”

    “trust the judgment of those doing the investigation”….

    Good luck with that one.

    I don’t trust myself…let alone so-called “men of God”…even guys who do the right thing most of the time.

    In matters regarding a Child and Physical and/or Sexual Abuse, report first, do your internal CC investigation after (if that makes you feel better). If you find what you think is evidence of a false allegation AFTER you’ve reported…then present it to the Governing Authorities who Paul the Apostle Clearly Asserts:

    Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

    The Law of the Land says, “Report, report, report.” Do it.

  30. Maybe fyi’s intentions are good, but it irritates me that it seems they always take the side of the pastor. If they post on this site, they need realize that we have heard it all! We have seen a lot and we or at least I, don’t trust many pastors anymore due to my own personal experiences. Respect and trust is an earned thing. All I’m saying is that according to what is being said, he didn’t do the right thing and it’s obvious to all of us. It would be nice to hear a pastor say, “Wow, he blew it”, instead of hearing that we should just trust the leadership. That comment just doesn’t sit well with me anymore.

  31. This is one major problem I have:

    fyi said, “Bob Larsen is exactly the opposite of the CC pastor you complain about here. He is not a power-crazed CEO type. He is not only a good man, he is a Godly man who loves his flock and would never put his personal interests above those of his people–especially a child.”

    The same CC Pastor tried to convince me that Bob Grenier was a “a good man, a Godly man who loves his flock” etc etc.

    So, fyi’s opinion can be wrong.

    I KNOW he’s wrong regarding Bob Grenier, due to direct personal experience…so it is “possible” he doesn’t know Bob Larson that well either…

  32. ***Maybe fyi’s intentions are good, but it irritates me that it seems they always take the side of the pastor.***

    More evidence that CC is just a religious good ol’ boys club.

  33. Several years ago, some of us pulled the corner of the rug on Bob Grenier’s life and found some shocking realities that eroded our trust in him as a pastor and human being. That was way before Alex and his brothers filed a police report alleging child abuse in their home. I don’t think anyone ever thought, except for the Grenier boys, that the actions in Visalia were just the tip of the iceberg. All of you can see now that there is at least the appearance of impropriety surrounding the actions of many senior pastor’s lives. That is very concerning to many.

    I think of the hymn lyrics, ” Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the one I love…”, and ask myself how so many men who seemingly started out with fire in their souls could eventually do so many ugly things? There have been many very prominent Christian men who have been strong leaders over the years who have lived lives above reproach. What is their ‘secret’? In most cases, they were/are functioning within very strict accountability structures. I know Billy Graham has. Any Christian leader who directly controls the sacrificial spiritual gifts of money had better be held to very strict levels of accountability. If it is true that Chuck Smith makes direct decisions on how more than $250 million dollars is spent, then he better be held to a very high standard. He earned none of that money. That money was given back to the Lord, and Smith is only a steward of it. Smith may be a gifted speaker, and knowledgable about the Scriptures, as well as a strong leader but he is a man-or-clay like all of us. I hope he and all his pastoral disciples will reform their ways and truly listen to what God is saying through his people.

    I have said my piece. I have exhausted my contributions on here. I hope I have moderated the conversations in a positive and edifying way. I deeply care about those who have been hurt. I was once hurt. But I have moved on and I cling far more to Jesus than I ever did when attending a CC. I trust men with a lower case ‘t’. I Trust God with a capital ‘ T ‘. That is the way it should have always been. I hope it will be for all of you from this day on. If you know something that is downright wrong, follow Matthews instruction. If that gets nowhere, then expose it here to the Church and continue to pray your own heart will stay soft and pliable in the Lord’s hands. I must redirect my attention to pressing family matters, and the vocational focus God wants me to influence for his glory. God Bless you all!
    WA

  34. “trust the judgment of those doing the investigation”….

    Again, and not to diminish the issue of the child that might have been abused, but what this lawsuit is about is a church employee who was fired for failing to toe the line of her superiors and their wise judgment. Let’s give the church and the sr. pastor the benefit of the doubt and say…”we had experts, we conducted a fair and thorough investigation…it didn’t happen.” Therefore since the employee disagreed with our investigative conclusion, she was unsubordinate in filing the report despite our investigation results and, possibly, instruction to her not to report. So we had to terminate her.

    This where I hoist the petard of the church and its leadership. Legally this is likely wrong and, given the employees dilemna, I state that this is not how one treats employees in the church, much less the world. Hence, another of my reasons for leaving the employ of the mothership.

    What is Larson’s answer to that?

    FYI: what is your answer and this seemingly is how you would have handled the same situation in your church? If grace cannot be exercised under such circumstances given an employee’s choice of fulfilling the law (and her conscience for the child’s situation and to fulfill the law) vs. “trusting” the leadership (e.g. you), when can it be?

    But, you see, this is the seminal issue. One must support and submit to the sr. pastor…under all circumstances.

    FYI: I am glad to say that in the company in which I serve and sit as a board member (160+ employees and worth exceeding 9 figures), and founded by a Believer who is still its majority shareholder (and who by his direct personal financial support allowed me to serve PC at the mothership for so many years when I was grossly underpaid), we would never terminate an employee in retaliation for their belief they were following the law in that employee’s best conscience, even if it caused the company harm… and even if we disagree with the employee’s choice of action. So FYI, where’s the grace and second chance?

    Hence, we return to the imperialism associated with the Moses Model.

  35. I can’t believe that IDHW would have told this pastor it would have been fine if it was not reported – which seems to be implied by this story.

  36. FYI said:

    “Bob Larsen is exactly the opposite of the CC pastor you complain about here. He is not a power-crazed CEO type. He is not only a good man, he is a Godly man who loves his flock and would never put his personal interests above those of his people–especially a child.”
    __________

    I do not believe in the myth of the ALL or NOTHING pastor. No man is ever always wise, always good, and always choosing correctly; likewise, most men are not always bad in every situation, either.

    Bob Larson may be a great guy, for all I know; but that doesn’t mean that a person should just trust him. That doesn’t mean that he made the right decision in this situation. He’s not God, he’s not Moses, but he is a human being with feet of clay.

    It does appear that he may have put his own interests above the welfare of this child. We all make mistakes; and this particular -apparent- lapse in judgment, does fit with the normal pattern of problems that the Moses Model produces.

    One of my CC pastors told me that I should have trusted him to have handled a difficult matter, implying that I didn’t need a resolution; though I had been falsely accused by another leader and removed from ministry for no cause. Well over a year passed and the situation was never resolved, though he agreed I did no wrong and the leader was not only guilty, but had an habitual problem in this area. My point is that the pastor expected me to “just trust him to have handled the matter,” when -in fact- he never did.

    Is this CC pastor a bad guy? He wouldn’t be according to most CC pastor’s definitions of whose a good guy and whose a bad guy. Yet, he still is making decisions that are heavily influenced by the Moses Model that err on the side of protecting himself and not on doing the right thing. I suspect he was being pragmatic. It’s easier to live with a leader who has some issues than to have to search for a new person, as well as admit that he was wrong in appointing someone with known habitual sin issues in the first place.

    I think one case that is being made on this blog, is that the Moses Model is negatively influencing “good guys” to make bad decisions. EVERYONE needs accountability, and the humility that comes along with that, in order to recognize and admit when they’ve made a bad call. Even “good guys” can err.

  37. If Solomon, the wisest man in the world sinned, and made mistakes, then so can a CC “good guy” pastor.

  38. “The main thing we learn from a serious attempt to practice the Christian virtues is that we fail. ” –CS Lewis

  39. I know a situation where a child was abused by a babysitter. The older brother and sister both told what happened. The parents took the children to their pastor (also the pastor of the babysitter, btw) who convinced the parents that the kids made it up to get attention. Problem was, they didn’t. It really did happen and it serious impacted everyone in the years that followed.

  40. Doug, your story is all too common, unfortunately.

    I just heard a story today:

    A woman had been attending women’s meetings at a church for about seven years when a woman in ministry took note of something about the daughter’s mannerisms, or how she looked, or something that made her suspect this child knew something about sex. When this leader expressed her concern to the pastor, he called her a “wicked woman.” So the woman leader never mentioned it again.

    Not long after, the authorities removed the child from her mother and put her in foster care, I assume because the child said something. The mother of the child then accused the pastor of having sex with her seven year old daughter. After an investigation, the pastor was cleared. Then the mother accused another leader, who was also investigated and cleared.

    The consensus of some in the church was that the child must have been making it all up for attention. Only later did it come out that the mother was actually selling her own daughter into prostitution as a little girl. The girl actually did need help and the only one who noticed and tried to speak up was labeled as “wicked;” thereby sending a strong message to others not to “see” such things, and certainly don’t speak of them out loud.

    We just NEVER know. Most stories are not this horrific, but all stories of abuse are horrific to the child involved, who has no voice. But, again, even if the child were making it all up, that is a LOUD cry for help.

  41. This led me to think of how quickly, relatively speaking, Bob Grenier could get his name cleared and the “chatter” stopped, if he just submitted to an investigation. Well, it would only work if he is innocent, that is.

  42. I am the friend of Bob Larson that Alex is referring to.

    I have known Bob and his family for many years and they are friends of mine and my family. I agree that this is a mess that needs to be ironed out and I am sure that Bob is silent due the fact of the pending law suit. The Bob that I know is a Godly, loving man and I know the dream and vision he had in building a Christian School and he and his wife’s love for children.

    Having said that, I have not spoken to him regarding this issue. I do know that even the most Godly men and women that have walked this earth have made bad judgement calls in their lifetime, for often the wrong reasons. No one, not any those that are so quick to skin Bob alive on this site, is above that. I don’t know what happened, not the whole story.

    Many people use things, blogs, such as this to sound off and at times blow things out of proportion before finding out all the facts. They use this as an opportunity to pick apart others comments and shred people without knowing the whole story or the people involved.

    Alex is an up front and honest God fearing man and I understand his reasons for bringing things like this to light. I even respect it. Alex even had the respect of our friendship regarding Bob and me, and called me to give me a heads up before he spoke with Bob and we have had open dialog about this since he posted this. I have had a lot of time to ponder the statements Bob put out, especially about the one “where this happens all the time”. Again, I am sure he is quiet on points leading into this suit on the advice of his attorney.

    What we don’t know and Alex has even brought up is, “it was said she does this all the time”. Has Bob and her parents and even the State of Idaho been aware of this happening? We on this site don’t know, but it could be very likely they did, maybe not.

    We don’t know what this employee was like or anything about her. I have been lied about, to my senior management, more than once by my ex-employees and even had a hearing over one and the judge settled in favor of me. Those things are real world and happen everyday.

    Alex also mentioned that “if Bob is in the right on this matter that he should fight it”, and I’m sure that if he is, he will. Again, we don’t know.

    Nothing disgusts me more than children being hurt in a sexual or abusive way and I know far more on that subject than most people know. It is just plan sick and I know Bob feels the same way.

    I know Alex is going to reach out to the state regarding their laws and even their knowledge on this report and I look forward to seeing the results of that call. All I can say at this point is, we all know this isn’t just going to go away nor should it. The truth will come out I pray. Knowing Bob the way I do, I will withhold judgement until that day. If he is in err, he needs to repent.

    Alex, thanks for being my friend and keep us up to date on what the state says. To the rest on this site, have you ever been wrong? I know I have and I also know reports and facts often have a wide gap between them. I will wait and see….sitting on the fence here on this matter…….Lyle

  43. Lyle,

    Since you addressed “others on this site” and asked “Have you ever been wrong”, I will reply to that.

    In due respect, this blog is not about perfect people “never being wrong”.
    This blog, to me, is about Alex’s personal situation, and also about about Christians who have been manipulated abused by the Calvary Chapel system.

    I cannot support those I do not know, and you cannot refute what you don’t know about what is going on in anyone elses life, so I personally prefer to comment on my own experiences, and I have seen others do the same–so this blog can be a source of support for those ho have had no support in their own CC system.

    Your comment reflects a lack of discernment and an lack of sympathy, if you truly have read what others have expressed.

    I am not sure why you have come to the defense of the accused, and although I respect that this man is a friend of yours, you are also not able to be objective and thus your testimony in my opinion has no credence on the matter.

    Christians are supposed to come alongside one another and share one anothers burdens and I personally resent your comments to “the rest on this site”. What others have shared is their PERSONAL experience and you have no authority or privelege to take a posiiton against that.

    What bothers me most about “the church” is the unwillingness to be sympathetic to the hurt in favor of using scripture to support the “well we all sin” slogan.
    When “the world” has more sympathy for the hurting than “the church” we are in trouble.

    Until you have seen the investigation and have the facts, why even the need to defend the accused? What is the point other than to show your loyalty? You seem to sway back and forth from supporting Alex to reprimanding him.

  44. Actually, I don’t believe that I lacked discernment nor sympathy, maybe you didn’t read my entire post. I sat in on a class once where everyone one was asked to write down their two top spiritual gifts. 95% of the 20 some people had discernment as number one. Like I said last night, are you ever wrong, I know I am…….

    All I was saying is, we don’t know anything regarding this case, other than what was stated in the law suit and Alex’s conversation with Bob Larson. I was simply stating I don’t know the WHOLE story and that this is out of character for Bob. I wasn’t defending him, this isn’t something I can see him do intensionally, but I could be dead wrong. I just, out of respect for him and the years I’ve known him, defer from calling him a liar until I know all the facts.

    I was not reprimanding Alex, I’m not sure why you said that, in fact I respect him. That doesn’t mean I always agree with him and when I don’t, I make that pretty plain and even call him personally.

    That is one of the problems with written words. People often don’t understand or misinterpret the meaning or real feeling behind them.

    We, as people living in a great country with many freedoms, seem to forget some of our basic rights……One is supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, a fact we like when we need it, but toss that aside when it comes to others…. We enjoy freedom of speech until we don’t like what the opposite side is saying…

    I’m not on the opposing side on this actually and Alex knows that via my phone conversations with him, in fact I believe I made it very clear how I feel about child abuse.

    Alex, have you or are you going to reach out to the lady that was fired? I meant to ask you that when I talked to you. There were somethings in her law suit that I questioned. I haven’t read it since you called me but looking at the time frame I wonder, if she was that convinced or convicted about this young girl, why wait so long? I could care less what my employer told me if I saw the need to report it. I would have picked up the phone right away. As you and I discussed, by the time the State got involved, wounds could have healed, adults could have gotten to her and threatened her, and silenced her.

    Also, I may be wrong, but didn’t that lady say this has already cost her close to $10,000? If that is true, then she is either the most well paid teacher I know or her attorney wasn’t totally convinced and took a hefty retainer.

    Alex, can you copy and paste that PDF file of her suit to this site and let everyone see the suit? Also, I would encourage you to talk to this lady, you have a pretty great BS meter and would love to hear on your conversation with her.

    Hope to see you Saturday Alex, should be good times. Bring your taser and we’ll demo it on Wayne.

  45. Jim’s post has been removed.

  46. Lyle, I hear you that you are saying Bob is a friend of yours and based on what you know, you trust the man. In many situations that would speak volumes, but on this blog, you have to remember people have heard great defenders of Bob Grenier, when they, themselves, have experienced great harm from him. I, personally, know many would express complete trust in the character of one of my former CC pastors, yet, I personally experienced him making a sinful call that continues to be very damaging to many. So your careful acknowledgment of the good you know about Bob is noted, but cautiously so.

    I hope you will keep our comments on here in context of the larger conversation of the entire blog. The broader perspective is that the unbiblical Moses Model of church government actually creates an environment of a lack of accountability, as well as a culture of arrogance. It can take godly, innocent men, whose only desire is to please and serve God, and slowly steal them of their humility and reinforce their unchallenged thoughts. Many have indicated they start to actually believe that what they think and the decisions they make, are from God and that to challenge them is sin. This is a very dangerous place for any fallible man to be.

    Do they arrive at this thinking overnight? No. But there is such a consistent pattern of the general slide in pastors of CC churches across the country, that there certainly appears to be a serious enough problem that we are calling for reforms in CC, specifically the lack of accountability of this unbiblical church government called the Moses Model.

    Has Bob made that slide? I certainly don’t know. But it’s worth people paying close attention and asking questions when a CC pastor (like Bob in this case) makes a decision that appears to be against the law (not reporting sexual abuse allegations by a minor;) and there is an appearance of the decision not being in the best interests of the child (reporting and then if the child is lying, the accused are cleared, and the child should be given the help she needs;) and there is an appearance of putting a worker in the untenable position of being guilty before the law if she obeys the church and doesn’t report, or loses her job if she does (which she did lose her job at the decision of the pastor.)

    Since the appearances of Bob’s decisions, along with his responses (“…she does this all the time;” as well as, laying the decision making blame at the feet of the insurance company, instead of the buck stopping at the man in charge,) are questionable, and since the appearance of the decision seems to fit the normal pattern of many CC pastors when they find themselves being affected by their lack of checks and balances, it is reasonable for others – like us – to ask questions and state out loud what it does look like. And please note that questions have also been asked about the woman who was fired, as well.

    Lyle said,
    “Many people use things, blogs, such as this to sound off and at times blow things out of proportion before finding out all the facts.”

    I do not think we’ve done this. I think many of us were careful to couch our terms with words like: suspect, don’t know, appearance, looks like, etc… I thought it was clear that we don’t know, but we are discussing what it looks like; which I think is reasonable, given the information that is available. It seems to me that we are showing our frustration based on how Bob did respond. He had a chance to say something that would put others at ease, but his choice of what to say, only raised more questions and concerns.

    Also, I think it’s important to keep in mind that many of us have been falsely accused, lied about, and creatively shunned from our CC churches, along with all the fall-out that entails. We were not given “innocent until proven guilty” priviledges, though we are extending them to Bob. Most of us were never even given a hearing, just the boot of creative shunning the CC way. But while we are keeping an open mind, we are still stating what it looks like and what concerns we have.

  47. “I, personally, know many would express complete trust in the character of one of my former CC pastors, yet, I personally experienced him making a sinful call that continues to be very damaging to many.”

    Wondering…….

  48. Lyle:
    “There were somethings in her law suit that I questioned. I haven’t read it since you called me but looking at the time frame I wonder, if she was that convinced or convicted about this young girl, why wait so long? I could care less what my employer told me if I saw the need to report it. I would have picked up the phone right away. As you and I discussed, by the time the State got involved, wounds could have healed, adults could have gotten to her and threatened her, and silenced her.”

    Good observation, but have you considered this or ever been placed in a situation such as this? You are required to report, but you fear retailiation by your employer. Now its nice to wax on with platitudes about real concern, but many times where the rubber meets the road is when you financially struggle to make ends meet…particularly if you or your spouse is employed in minstry. I am not saying that fiscal needs trump the concerns for the child who allegedly was abused. But it is nonetheless a personal struggle. If this were not so, then states would not enact such reporting statutes with mandatory reporting timeframes, crimnal consequences for failing to report and “protective” provisions deterrring employer’s from retailiating against employees that whistleblow or take other measures that may jeopardize their employment due to placing their employer at risk of liability in meeting the requirements of the law.

    While not exactly on point, after 7 yeats of employment at the mothership, and in a meeting between the CSN boys, PC and myself, Jeff Smith slandered me….over 15 minutes worth. He failed to name his sources or name names, making it all the more traumatic for me and hurtful and pointedly sinister. PC knew the underlying allegation brought against and that they were untrue. There was then and is now absolutely no debate as to whether he, PC, CCCM and CSN would be liable to me for the grief and damages suffered by me and my Porverbs “good name” as a result of his lies. I struggled almost daily for 1 year up to the very day the statute of limitations ran as to filing suit and its consequences. One, I guess in the long run, I would receive a large monetary judgment. Two, how would my fellow believers/freinds feel about me for “breaking rank” and causing actions to be brought against such a promoinent church? Three. Would I be fired by PC w/o notice as retaliaton for attacking him, his son and the church? (sure) Four. How would I survive financialy as the sole financial provider in my family until the judgment was satisfied, which could be one or more years if appeals were taken. I certainly would lose my home, my daughter pulled from college (mostly scholarship), etc.

    Now these concerns do not even rise to the issues here in the sense that that child’s welfare could very much be at extreme risk. But my example, I hope, is illustrative of the conflicting concerns a reporter undertakes in the process. That is the reason on this thread I have undertaken to address that matter and dynamic. Although differing in degrees and consequences, there are 2 “victims” of the church’s position on handling this matter.

    Well, we all know that this employee was without doubt fired for insubordination and reporting against the church’s wishes. Else, why would she be fired a day after reporting. It is too easy to say this was the straw that broke the camels back in her job performance.

    Hope you see another perspective on this.

    Also, consider what I beleive is one of the seminal issues on this blog. You see, we have leadership that preaches a gospel caliing for repentence unto salvation and toward a purification into the mind of Christ, yet lacks repentence as called for by the message of Christ and the directives of the NT for leadership. Leadership in the church requires sacrifice and humility, even abasement…to the point of repentence. This is healthy..this is required if we are to represent Him in ministry and the world. Due to man’s fallen nature and pride and self-preservation instincts, this rarely happens in CC or any other ministry or church. Sad. Bob may be a good guy, but if he percieves any degree of culpability or fault, then he should take the plank out of his eye, repent by words and action (as as John the Baptist called for) and address the past employee’s needs to move onto another place without fiscal harm due to reporting and admit to his staff his error.

    Do you really think his staff and church would see him in a lesser light? Or maybe, just maybe, they would see in their pastor a leader who struggles as we all do, errs, reprents, accdepts foregiveness, and moves in in his walk?

  49. Jeff you said, “Do you really think his staff and church would see him in a lesser light? Or maybe, just maybe, they would see in their pastor a leader who struggles as we all do, errs, reprents, accdepts foregiveness, and moves in in his walk?”

    Wouldn’t that be refreshing? And that is the main point for me, I don’t expect a pastor to be perfect but I do expect them to admit when they are wrong, ask for forgivness and repent. When I see a pastor that is supposed to be walking the talk and you have to teach him what is the right thing to do then there is a serious problem.

    Here is an example: I ran into Bob Grenier after I left and he walked by me like he didn’t even see me. He didn’t make eye contact, didn’t smile or acknowledge me in any way at all, almost as if I were invisable. My thought was, I have attended this man’s church for almost 20 years, served on his staff for about 5 years and he doesn’t even say hi. Why should I have to be the one to show him how to act like a Christian when he preaches it every Sunday?

    Now even more than that example is all of the allegations brought against him. A true man of God would reach out to those who have been wounded by him, specifically his sons.

    Humility speaks volumes to me and I would never think less of anyone if they came forward and said they have made a terrible mistake, asked for forgiveness and repented. In fact, I would find grace and forgivesness in my heart toward that person.

  50. Jeff said:
    “have you considered this or ever been placed in a situation such as this? You are required to report, but you fear retailiation by your employer. Now its nice to wax on with platitudes about real concern, but many times where the rubber meets the road is when you financially struggle to make ends meet…particularly if you or your spouse is employed in minstry.”
    ____________

    I obviously don’t know what happened in the case stated on this blog; but I can imagine a scenario where the worker was being told not to report, so the worker then tried to make her case to her employer in order to “bring them along.” She may have been trying to help them understand the law, their responsibility, and to act as a team, instead of her coming across as “rebellious,” or not a team player.

  51. And then be fired? Plausible but not likely

  52. Maybe so … or maybe she wasn’t able to make her case, or they already had their minds made up and didn’t want to hear her point of view.

  53. To all, thanks for the questions and responses. Forgive me if this seems rambling, it’s been two very long work days.

    Maybe some know, maybe some don’t, but I went to CCV for years and knew Alex and Paul back in the day. I have great respect for him and folks like Tina and others have helped open my eyes to things I was not aware of.

    You can check on my responses in other sections of Alex’s site and see I too have been down a bad road with a CC Pastor and agree that there are many gracing the pulpit that shouldn’t be there. There are just as many in other churches in different denominations and small independent churches around the world that have the same issues going on. Fallible people are rampant in the pulpits for the money, the power, for whatever reasons, but many are also earnest decent people not above making mistakes. It’s the owning up to them and learning from them that I find discouraging. I wish I had the answer or wisdom to tell you what the best model of church government should be but I don’t..

    Just a response to one question…@ Jeff regarding being in the same situation is a question I can really only answer for myself, I would have reported it the day it happened regardless of the ramifications. ( I also don’t remember seeing her being threatened with her job if she reported it. but I could be wrong.) I only say that, not out of arrogance or an holier then thou attitude. I would because I have faith that Christ would see me through whatever happens, maybe not the way I would want Him to but, how can I phrase it, He would to my own benefit take me through it, even if it was through hard times.

    Christ sets our paths, we choose our direction, if you will. Does that make sense? I’m not the kind of person that gives high regard to what others think beyond my representation of Christ. Regardless of the cost. That is one of the reasons I’m not concerned about using my name on these posts and don’t hide behind a fictitious name.

    I also want to say for the record, I’m too old and have been down to many roads to have complete trust in many people, only those closest to me and I wonder if I truly and completely trust anyone at times.

    I’d like to make a couple points before I sign off as I’m really exhausted and sorry I didn’t answer some of the questions.

    One is, I was glad to see that Bob did in fact have a candid conversation with Alex even though he didn’t answer every question and seemly evaded some points. Most Pastors that know they are in sin would be in the duck and evade mode, I’ve seen it. I give Alex credit for letting Bob know up front who he was and what the call was about and I also give Bob Larson credit for taking the call knowing who Alex was. Makes me feel there is more to this matter than we are aware of…

    Secondly, I’m never quick to pin angel wings on people I don’t know, as Alex and I discussed today. I know Alex is not able to speak with her on this matter and understand why, but my second point or question is….If she had not been fired, what we she have done? Buried it, forgot about it, what? It is a question I would like to know the answer too. Maybe she would have taken it to the elder board, maybe she should have done that the minute the director supposedly told her not to report it. We all have times we wished we would have handled something in a different way so I’m not attacking her. I just had serious questions about the draft of the law suit that was posted.

    My last point is this, I am really concerned about this child, far more than I am the allegations of cover up and wrongful termination and would ask that you all pray for her. We have a powerful, loving God

  54. Thanks Lyle

    I suspect she wanted to report but was instructed that the decision was not hers to make or that she should defer to her superiors. Seeing the abrogation of their responsibilities under the law she finally took her chances and reported as she likely desired to do initially.

    Get rest mi hermano

  55. I had to get up and retract something I said, sorry. I shouldn’t have said “allegations of cover up”, I am brain dead, I meant allegations of avoiding the issue or the proper handling of the issue towards Bob. I can be very narrow minded, but Bob would have nothing to gain that I can think of, by not helping this child and we don’t know what he is or was doing or had done in the past or present for that matter, to protect her or help her.
    Sorry I worded my thoughts so poorly….rambling again….

  56. Gracias Jeff, yo…Dios noche

  57. Gracias Jeff, yo…Buena noche
    My Spanish is terrible

  58. Lyle said:
    “I give Alex credit for letting Bob know up front who he was and what the call was about and I also give Bob Larson credit for taking the call knowing who Alex was.”
    _________

    Duly noted!

    I agree about praying for the little girl, as well.

  59. Response to Tina@ 5:42 pm 1/27/11:
    I have had identical run-ins with Bob over the years, and, like you, there’s no way he did not recognize me or could have forgotten me considering all the damage he did and the connections he had with people close to my family–no way at all!!!! Can you imagine how practiced those feigned non-recognition scenes are for him?

    Knowing what Bob did to me and my family, not just once but over a period of years, makes Alex’s and his brothers’ stories quite plausible to me. The type of abuse, of course, was different, but it was abuse nonetheless.

    Truth is an absolute defense, and in that sense, he is absolutely defenseless.

    I have NO trust in CC or its pastors. The system is faulty at its core. It attracts poorly educated, misogynistic pastors who turn around and attract insecure misogynistic men who Bible-thump continually on submission but ignore Christ’s command to submit by loving sacrifically. Hypocrites. CC is a weak-man magnet. Bob and his cronies additionally preach about the very thing they’re guilty of–gossip. However, their gossip is spun to be “of the Lord” and has the effect of shunning. They believe in restoration, but only for themselves. Reaching out to the one lost sheep out of the 99? Are you kidding? They’ll slaughter it first. Also, CC’s in general employ elders who don’t meet biblical standards and have zippo accountability.

    As much as Alex may need a break now and then from his website, his presence is needed here. I think his presence and ours combine to contribute to mutual healing.

    I will never, ever attend a CC again in my life. Never.

  60. Lone Ranger: ”
    I have NO trust in CC or its pastors. The system is faulty at its core. It attracts poorly educated, misogynistic pastors who turn around and attract insecure misogynistic men who Bible-thump continually on submission but ignore Christ’s command to submit by loving sacrifically. Hypocrites. CC is a weak-man magnet. Bob and his cronies additionally preach about the very thing they’re guilty of–gossip. However, their gossip is spun to be “of the Lord” and has the effect of shunning. They believe in restoration, but only for themselves. Reaching out to the one lost sheep out of the 99? Are you kidding? They’ll slaughter it first. Also, CC’s in general employ elders who don’t meet biblical standards and have zippo accountability.”

    AMEN! Hypocrites..and a great term you used…magnets…But what is their appeal? Why do people follow them? I see it as though they are sort of like hypnotists that put people under a spell. Paranoia. People are actually paranoid if they go against these men. Reminds me to look up that word.

    Lyle: “I had to get up and retract something I said, sorry. I shouldn’t have said “allegations of cover up”, I am brain dead, I meant allegations of avoiding the issue or the proper handling of the issue towards Bob. ”

    Perhaps Lyle, you really meant “cover up”. Maybe you aren’t “Brain dead” Maybe thats really what needed to come out of your mouth., Thats a better term for what I experienced.

    If I commented about what I know that has been covered up at my old CC, I would have to back it up with facts and because it has been “covered up” or “allegedly” covered up, it will never be exposed unless God decides to expose it.
    In reading the last days comments here, I am reminded of what Jesus said about giving Cesars what is his….I think that means that we are all under the authority of our goverment and there are other scriptures to support this. So to me that means that if someone sees, hears, or has evidence that they believe needs to get to the governing authorities, it should be reported without going through a self-appointed filter.(Calvary Chapels) What made this group above the law?? Thats what happens in the Vatican, and now at the Calvary Chapels.
    They know if some of what goes on comes out to the public, they would lose their “following” and that means money-plain and simple.
    In the “world” someone would have no problem “doing the right thing”. Somehow though when you are an employee of a Calvary Chapel, your common sense goes out the door in favor of protecting the church. This insane “filter” that all things must pass through (all decisions made) is really the devils territory because it involves deception, lies, cover-up. So the truth goes out the door. And then, if someone goes against this filter, and takes it upon themselves to do what they know instinctively and through the Holy Spirit; the result for them involves disassociation, loss of employment, backlass, smearing of ones reputation, and a whole host of other “goodies” you have to now live with.
    So who is going to do the right thing?
    Surely no employee that needs the church to feed their family.
    But can their conscience live with this is they are a believer?

  61. Interesting that the translation of the Greek word : Paranoia -means MADNESS.

  62. PS..from my own comment:They know if some of what goes on comes out to the public, they would lose their “following” and that means money-plain and simple.

    I do believe alot of the CC Pastors are narcissists. That is a good enough reason to cover-up. Maybe it isn’t all about money.

  63. One more

    What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

    The key word to describe a narcissist is “self-aggrandizement.” All of us to one degree or another manifest some narcissistic characteristics, particularly when we are younger or in our youth, but most of us grow out of it as we mature. There are those though, who because of their unique temperament, combined with improper upbringing and training that often includes trauma, that develop warped belief structures about themselves and others by their teen years. Unfortunately they not only do not grow out of it, but become firmly entrenched and concerned with “Me, My, I, and Myself.” They live out a life of— “It’s all about Me: my wishes, my desires, my kingdom come…” In essence another person with a certifiable personality disorder is unleashed upon the world. A mistaken belief is that a narcissist is in love with himself,* but in reality he is in love with an image of himself. An image he creates and believes about himself that is based upon his perception of how he perceives that other people view him. Unfortunately, to love only images renders the individual unable to really love and care for the person who is behind the image. The narcissist does not really love himself or others around him. He loves his projected image and the image he projects onto others (more about this later).

  64. I do not wish to unnecessarily offend all CC pastors. I really believe that many men start out with nothing but great desire to please God, to see others come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, our precious Lord and Savior, and to simply preach the Word of God in a clear and understandable way. I think many men want to facilitate people worshiping our God together, in unity, and reaching out to those around us who don’t know Him, yet. I praise God for such desires that God puts in people’s hearts.

    HOWEVER, I have to agree with Lone Ranger, that the CC “church system” appears (I would lean towards saying it’s factual) to be faulty at it’s core, which ultimately takes good men and sets them on a slippery slope. The Moses Model is not biblical, it’s actually dangerous and ignores all the NT prescriptions for church government and accountability that we know God has told us to apply.

    Of course, we all know that man can screw up any church government, but that is no license to make up one that is not biblical and that ignores what we are told to do. This Moses Model is a church system that has affected the entire culture of the CC movement negatively, to the point of creating fertile ground for some heinous and far reaching sins – even crimes- as well.

    It starts with removing accountability, removing needful challenges to one’s thinking by others, and then providing a false reassurance to the leader that he has special privileges with God -like Moses did- which deceives him into thinking he’s always right … or more spiritual. This is absolutely more dangerous than many … even most … church systems out there today. It is, at least, equal to other dangerous independent models of church government where all accountability is removed. The references to “Jim Jones” are not as far off as we wish they were.

    I agree that this unbiblical dangerous church system most often draws to itself uneducated, misogynistic, and at least egocentric – if not full blown Narcissistic – men. I can say that my first and third CC pastors were both this description to the core.

    I’ve been in other church systems where these characteristics were noticeably absent. The church system affects the church culture, affects the ministry, affects the people … NECESSARILY.

  65. TIna said, “Here is an example: I ran into Bob Grenier after I left and he walked by me like he didn’t even see me. He didn’t make eye contact, didn’t smile or acknowledge me in any way at all, almost as if I were invisable”

    Tina, that’s terrible…imagine being his blood son. Paul runs into Bob and my mom…and they do the SAME thing. They act like he’s a ghost.

  66. Lone Ranger said, “As much as Alex may need a break now and then from his website, his presence is needed here. I think his presence and ours combine to contribute to mutual healing.”

    Yes, I agree.

    I just read a very very sad story of a family (and their children) who have been through the Meat Grinder at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa.

    I hope to share their story for the purpose of accountability and shining a light on the cancer that is within much of the Calvary Chapel System.

    It’s sickening and deplorable what this woman reports.

    I do understand if the family doesn’t want to go on the record, as it must be VERY emotional for them to deal with the stuff they’ve gone through.

    It is shocking and deplorable…even I am a taken back by what she’s reported…and I’d thought I had seen and heard it all.

  67. Alex when that happened to me I had just shortly left and was unaware of what had happened to you guys. I was willing to say hi to him at that time. Now, NO, I wouldn’t waste my words on him and I surely wouldn’t act like I was ok with all that he has done to you, your family and the other brothers. Shame on Bob G. for treating his own flesh and blood like that. I don’t understand how he can do that at all, but knowing what I know now it all makes sense. That man has some serious issues.

  68. Tina,

    It is amazing to me that this man who abused you and his own family could get up every Sunday and stand at the pulpit and preach the Word of God.
    And worse how others can even step foot in that church.
    Just the accusations alone–how can they be there?
    Doesn’t everyone there know what is going on??

  69. Sorry…”allegedly abuse his own family”

  70. Admin,

    I will be praying for this woman.

  71. Did I say that I would never, ever attend a CC again?

    Oh, I did? Okay, just checking to make sure.

  72. The duality of his behavior in the pulpit or in front of other key people, which always included the appropriate amount of Christianese and spiritually trite phrases designed to impress the listener with the speaker’s ever-present awareness of the Almighty’s omnipotence, versus that which I witnessed first-hand in “counseling sessions,” which included a modicum of cuss words and yelling with family, amazed me to no end. James 3:10 “Out of the same mouth proceeded blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.” My low threshold for pretension coupled with his high level of bs that would send the crapometer right off the edge drove me bonkers at times.

    Having said that, let me be the first to assert I won‘t try to impress you with my level of spirituality and that I’m well aware of my many flaws as a Christian. However, I’m not in the pulpit where that tremendous accountability is. In sharing my thoughts or first-hand experiences, I am not trying to hinder the work of the Lord. Honestly, I would hope that we as witnesses can prevent someone else or a bunch of someone else’s from stumbling as I and perhaps many of you did as well. Like you, I would hope this forum continues to be a sounding board, a healing place, and perhaps a means to a noble end–bringing some accountability in CC leadership long overdue for those wounded who never did and never will consider revenge. Revenge we couldn’t justify nor would our consciences allow it. Acountability=yes.

  73. Many of you mention his suffering from narcissistic personality disorder. Curious as to something definitive re: symptoms from a reliable source, I copied and pasted what the Mayo Clinic lists and has to say:
    “Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
    Believing that you’re better than others
    Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
    Exaggerating your achievements or talents
    Expecting constant praise and admiration
    Believing that you’re special and acting accordingly
    Failing to recognize other people’s emotions and feelings
    Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
    Taking advantage of others
    Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
    Being jealous of others
    Believing that others are jealous of you
    Trouble keeping healthy relationships
    Setting unrealistic goals
    Being easily hurt and rejected
    Having a fragile self-esteem
    Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional”
    Furthermore, they state,
    “Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence or strong self-esteem, it’s not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence and self-esteem into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal. In contrast, people who have healthy confidence and self-esteem don’t value themselves more than they value others.

    When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may have a sense of entitlement. And when you don’t receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry. You may insist on having “the best” of everything — the best car, athletic club, medical care or social circles, for instance.

    But underneath all this behavior often lies a fragile self-esteem. You have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have a sense of secret shame and humiliation. And in order to make yourself feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and efforts to belittle the other person to make yourself appear better.”

    Personally, in addition to the overall symptom list, I find this last paragraph particularly telling. I’ll let the reader reach his/her own conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.

  74. Hannah #68, No there are still poeple who don’t know. Ran into one yesterday and she said she was checking out different churchs. I said, “Really? Why?” She said she was looking for one closer to home. I asked if she knew about what was going on at CCV and she said no. I was surprised by her comment, but she had to run. I suspect the next time she sees me, she will ask what is going on. Hey, if people ask me I tell them. But there are certainly those who continue to go and who know what’s going on, they just choose to believe it’s lies or worst know it’s the truth. I don’t get it either.

    Lone Ranger, that describes him perfectly.

  75. Lone Ranger, that is Bob Grenier to a “T”…and I am well-qualified to give that opinion as I lived with the man in front of the scenes and behind the scenes for 30 years.

    Bob and the Sycophants and Enablers who are close around him view Bob as “Special”…”Elevated”…”a Prophet”, etc.

    Calvary Chapel’s Ethos promotes “elevation” of the Lead Pastor…without Elevation of the Accountability that comes with that role…which denies Scripture.

  76. Hannah, there is a large group of people who have left Calvary Chapel Visalia…both lay-people (non-member members) and also associate Pastors.

    Alan and Andy Johnson have left (Former assistant pastors).

    Kevin Mizner has left (Former Administrator).

    It’s estimated that over 100 non-member members have left…long-time families…and their money with them.

    MANY don’t know what’s going on…as Bob Grenier and the rest of the so-called “leadership” at Calvary Chapel Visalia (who are really secondary “yes men” to Bob) cover over the stuff and relegate eye-witness testimony to “gossip”…which is a great technique to keep “Calvary Chapelites” from straying outside the safety and control of the spin which is the CCV Bubble.

    More and more find out, though, as more of us share our stories and tell others.

  77. Eventually, there will be National Media attention.

    It just takes time, but the story is being built and fact-checked and proper due diligence is being done.

    These things take time. It is a Marathon, not a Sprint.

    Both Big Calvary Chapel (Costa Mesa) and Calvary Chapel Visalia leadership (Bob) are aware that this is coming…so I’m sure they are battening down the hatches and will have the full “Gossip” Force-Fields and “It’s the devil attacking” Force-Fields in place to try and deflect the healthy Criticism and Call for Reforms.

  78. Re: Lone Ranger @ 12:30pm

    This is an exact description of my last pastor.

    The Narcissistic characteristics made me wonder why some people sometimes think of him in such an elevated way; it’s because he tells them he is “special,” in his own way. Then “simpletons” (as Proverbs refers to them) and “ladder climbers” propagate the myth.

    The list actually has me a bit stunned. I knew this CC pastor had Narcissistic tendencies, but I also know that can be said of almost everyone in varying degrees. But this list laid it out so clearly that it’s obvious this man has a much larger problem than even I had recognized.

  79. My thinking is now leaning less towards “A good guy gone bad in a bad system,” and more towards “A bad church system drew an unhealthy man.”

  80. Alex, yes, that list does fit Bob to a T. If as a former congregant of —- years, I recognize those traits in him, how much more so would you. It only stands to reason. My being exposed to that stinking thinking for the length of time I was there is nothing compared to what you endured. I became quite familiar with his mind games. I cannot fathom what it would have been like to be a vulnerable child and be exposed to that level of manipulation and humiliation that comes with being around a narcissist. I feel for you, Alex.

  81. LR, it has certainly had long-lasting effects and the mental abuse was as bad as the physical and spiritual.

    Bob Grenier is still playing the “mind games” by separating we three brothers and our children (my mom’s grandchildren) from my mother.

    It’s how he rolls.

    One way I am able to cope with it is to keep pushing for justice and accountability. The whole “vote with your feet” and “go your way in silence”…doesn’t cut it for me. It’s a way to allow abuse and corruption to continue unchecked in the Movement.

    Someday, Bob G. will give an answer and probably have some sort of penalty imposed on him for what he’s done to us.

    In the meantime, I and others will keep up with the public exposure, not only with regards to Bob Grenier, but also with regards to the Agency/Organization that has helped make him the abuser he is.

  82. Tina, when I first read the list, I was dumbfounded to realize an affirmative response to everything on that list would be true of him. Now, how is it that there are people both in his family and various congregants over different periods of time that have had similar experiences? That doesn’t happen by accident or design: it happened because of the faulty CC system that allowed someone like him to pastor a flock and because of his malignant temperament, to put it mildly.

  83. LR, clearly Calvary Chapel as an Organization doesn’t recognize the clear Scripture about Qualifications of a Pastor/Elder, much less the Church Discipline that is also instructed when a CC Pastor is unrepentant.

    Calvary Chapel says, “We simply teach the Bible simply”….yet Calvary Chapel does not “follow the Bible simply”.

    Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel and the individual Calvary Chapel Pastors are their own authority. Certainly not Scripture…or they’d practice accountability and Pastoral Qualifications…and Church Discipline.

  84. re: Grieving @ 10:56 a.m.:
    “My thinking is now leaning less towards ‘A good guy gone bad in a bad system,” and more towards ‘A bad church system drew an unhealthy man.’”
    You’re spot on with that one!

  85. Grieving, yes to what LR said, spot on with your 10:56am.

    That is the conclusion I am drawing now after all I’ve learned and been exposed to.

  86. re: Alex @ 11:44 a.m.:

    It would be interesting to see what the difference is in his justification for family shunning re: his “public,” CCV, “private” amongst family, and in his heart.

    What scripture references within context could he possibly use to justify such treatment? How does he justify scriptually the cutting off ties with innocent grandchildren? Has he brainwashed your mother into accepting his rationale with a scriptual twist, no doubt?

    I don’t get it. But then again, it’s hard to plumb the depths of that man’s psyche.

  87. LR, he uses this rationale:

    1. It’s all an attack from the devil and that we are agents of the devil filled with unforgiveness and bitterness…for some nebulous things he did that he won’t cop to, denies and lies about…but expects us to forgive. I’ve asked him specifically many times over the years, “forgive you for what, specifically? For striking me in the face? For hitting me with objects drawing blood and leaving bruises on my back, butt and legs? For kicking me, grabbing me violently, and shoving me?”

    He clammed up every time after that. No answer. just go away and stay silent…and the Stone Wall of Calvary Chapel silence and protection of sin and abuse goes up.

    2. He uses the rationale of “Let the unbeliever depart”…so he makes the Judgment that only God can make that those who challenge him…me and my brothers specifically…are unbelievers. He tried to use this on me to divorce my wife many years ago when I was still drinking the Kool-Aid…making the Judgment that my wife was an unbeliever and therefore I could divorce her.

    In reality, my wife never kissed the ring and cow-towed to Bob’s misogynistic ways, and that was always a thorn in his backside.

  88. re: Alex @ 11:44 a.m.:
    I forgot to add that none of the devisive behavior of Bob’s concerning family members surprises me, and yet it shocks me if that makes sense. “Divide and conquer” is a game he mastered long ago. I’ve read your posts, others’ posts, and know from personal experience how he played that game out really well within my family and wreaked havoc and destruction there. He was in total sin to “play divide and conquer” in my family; its effects have been felt in the second generation in the extreme.

    I can only imagine what he would be capable of doing in his own…..

  89. LR, yep that’s always been an effective strategy of Bob Grenier.

    “Divide and Conquer”…a very good way to put it.

    Watched him do it to many who challenged him, many board members over the years, many family members (constantly)…always pitting and posturing.

    I’ve seen Bob G. do it to local Calvary Chapel pastors who he felt threatened by.

    Bob has a proven effective set of Tactics that have served him well. He’s a survivor. However, that also makes him entirely predictable.

    I do take some measure of justification and sense of hope in knowing what’s coming for him…these things take time, but there will be a day of reckoning.

  90. re: Alex @ 12:09 p.m.:

    His #1 rational lets him off the hook for responsible and compassionate choices in dealing with people. Of course it’s easier for him to issue a blanket apology and never say specfically what for. Specific reasons can get messy, and they’re an outright admission of culpability. Cop out is right.

    His #2 rationale is what he used to drive a wedge in our family. He was successful. He has a lot to answer for in how he was a key party to the division in my family. I have legal proof of this, so this isn’t heresay or my spin. That’s all I’ll say on that until this reaches a broader level of resolution.

  91. Re: my 12:30 p.m.

    #2 There is, of course, great irony and grief involved in saying he was key player and successful in destroying part of my family. Being “successful” on one very human, narcissistic level in that respect necessarily implies failure on a spiritual one.

  92. I am aware on a very personal level about how CC in general has allowed men to become elders who in no way qualify by biblical standards. The Bible hasn’t been used in certain instances as the measuring stick; instead, popularity and charismatic personalities seem to be the guiding factors.

  93. Seems as long as the man is married he can be an elder in the CC’s
    But I have heard from many women who grew up with fathers who served as elders (in other denominations) that they were not what they appeared to be.
    So the elder issue is the same with all churches.
    Churches need elders, especially to pass around the money baskets.

  94. I believe I have confused elders with deacons.

  95. Just did a little research on “elders” and “deacons”.

    Maybe someone can answer this for me.
    I understand that “elders” are teachers. I also understood that the elders replaced the title “Apostle” (or the office of..)
    So why is it then that a CC Pastor can have a businessman or CEO come into the church, having never been “ordained” (Thats another question…how do men get ordained? Do they have to go through any formal training or can they just recieve this title?), call this man a “Pastor” who never teaches the Bible, never does any work of a Pastor as far as Shepherding the flock, and then this “Pastor” can be called by this title and recieve tithes as his salery for being nothing more than a businessman?

    Thanks for any insight. Maybe off topic but I have wondered about this -myself and many others at my church.

  96. I have seen a new believer made maintance pastor and then removed as maintance pastor. It’s just a title, as far as I’m concerned. It’s almost a joke, in fact it is a joke. Bob G. lifts people up to positions only to slam them down again or to control them. It’s a shame and sham. It’s all about your loyalty to him, makes no difference if your qualified.

  97. Sorry maintenance pastor…sorry for the typos lol

  98. Aah, the elavator ride. Great control technique.

    I would challenge the view that elders replaced apostles. And I know of pastors who have other pastors as their elder board and they get criticized for that. Sometimes, they can’t win. Be careful to choose the right battles.

  99. Trouble posting…

  100. Alex, maybe we have had this problem in the past. I tried making my URI point to some heresy by Greg Laurie and it wouldn’t let me do that.
    It’s on the PB wiki site.

    I found some of my missing audio files. I already had the one where Greg Laurie teaches Jesus is a blending and intermingling of divine and human. I was able to find the one where I called TEMAA and Greg denied ever saying that.

    Gotta love these guys. Asks for where he said it and then still denied it. They spend more time trying to figure out who the Anti-Christ is than they do figuring out who the Real-Christ is.

  101. Doug, LOL. Yet, not LOL.

  102. Sad, I stated the tape name at the start of my call “Who is Jesus” and then when asked. He then didn’t say “I’ll check it out”. He said that he never said it and didn’t use that language. It was the perfect set-up in the sense that he really was clueless about what he said, but worse, clueless about why what he said was heretical. I’m sure there’d be ppl who would defend him, too! You’d think a “pastor” of thousands would want to be sure he had it right. Plus it was about the only tape he had on the topic (note it was a 2-part topical series in the subject, not a verse by verse).

  103. I found the one you wanted. I will put it up…

  104. Doug, I’ve got to be honest, I’m a little torn.

    I listened to Ryan Ries’s testimony last night online. Theologically/Doctrinally, logically, communicatively and by any other measure…it was terrible.

    Yet, it was one of the most Powerful testimonies I’ve heard in sometime. It was raw, unscripted, honest, real and humble. He pointed people to Jesus Christ…and he’s made a dramatic decision to reach the World with the Gospel…people in the Streets, the Publicans, the Sinners…the “least of these”.

    Do I think Ryan should be a Pastor? No, not nearly yet.

    An Evangelist? Yes. The Holy Spirit is clearly moving through this man.

    While I have a personal beef with his pops and how that crew has handled my situation and conducted themselves in some other matters…I can’t get around the fact that this young man is spreading the Gospel and God is Saving His “Whosoevers”.

  105. Alex, look on the wiki under “attacks on critics”. The fourth one is the best…

  106. Alex, I hear you. i long ago moved past an “ends justify the means” as a way of justifying these guys. Greg Laurie had 30+ years after coming to faith to add knowledge to his zeal. While I can grant some exaggeration to evangelistic speech (or evangelastic in his case) there’s a limit…. There’s no excuse these many years later not to get smarter about the faith…

    Teachers will be judged by a different standard, right?

  107. Doug, I agree with that.

    Pastor/Teacher is a specifically defined role in Scripture and there are Standards…of both Conduct/Character AND to teach “sound doctrine”…(which can be a bit in the eye of the beholder as to what “sound doctrine” is).

    CC seems to excel at Evangelism…but really needs to up their game with regards to teaching sound doctrine and theology…and in following the teaching laid out in Scripture about Pastoral Standards, accountability, “Servant of All”, leave the 99 to save the 1, etc.

    Need to replace the “Moses Model” with the “Jesus Model”.

  108. People don’t really get that. Smith roles with the other pastors is that in some really rough sense, he is their pastor but not the pastor to the people they pastor.

    Working on converting the files from real audio format to mp3 so they can be played on mac…

  109. Thanks Doug.

  110. This may be a while. Tried realaudio player and it would not recognize the files. My linux box plays them no problem. May have to go to tape and bring it back in :)

  111. I converted the “attacks on critics” page files to mp3.

  112. It is my belief that the Calvary Chapel protocol is unlawful that was used in this case, since it contridicts Idaho’s laws in regard to these matters. It is unfortunate that policies are made that are above the law. There are reasons for the laws. If they did inform the minors parents they warned them of the impending investigation and interferred with a lawful investigation.

  113. Michael B, that’s my biggest beef with the handling of this issue with the little girl.

    A week or so is a LONG TIME for the alleged abuse to go unreported. Wounds heal, marks heal in that time period.

    It’s easy to say after-the-fact that no abuse occurred, when you have a time gap.

    Calvary Chapel Caldwell should have alerted authorities the very day the potential abuse was reported to Roesler…and she alerted her superior.

  114. I just put up the “Greg Laurie’s Heretical View of the Deity of Jesus Christ” audio in mp3.

  115. Just listened to it. Yep, pretty hard to dodge that one. Does Laurie still teach that…or has he moderated his teaching without acknowledging his error?

  116. Not sure what his current stance is. Somebody could drop by the Harvest bookstore and find out.
    Did the Smith attack on me by name mp3s work?

  117. If Greg Laurie changed/recanted I’d be happy to put that up, too.

    Point is these first gen CC pastors got way too much audience for their bad theology.

  118. Wow Doug, ‘ol Papa Chuck called you out by name from the Pulpit…yikes!

    He says that if you have a problem you could sit down and talk it out with him.

    Wow, I’d love that opportunity…but Chuck and Brian Brodersen and others have ignored my phone calls, emails, facebook messages etc.

  119. Wow Doug, listening to Chuck Smith talk about you is like listening to my step-dad Bob Grenier. Makes sense. That attitude and Ethos of viewing “criticism” as an “attack” trickles down to guys like Bob and others in the Movement.

    Chuck Smith is well aware of the Prophet Nathan approaching King David…and Jesus Christ calling out the Pharisees, Jesus Christ whipping the Money-Changers, the Apostle Paul strongly rebuking Peter, etc etc etc.

    It is too bad that your critiques were taken as “attacks”…rather than an opportunity to have a discussion, do some clarification (which it sounds like that eventually happened…which is a good thing)…and change where needed.

    Pride is a powerful force. It’s the great sin of the devil himself.

    Chuck is a man, like us, and fallible. I hope the next Generation of Calvary Chapel will learn from the mistakes.

  120. I did have a couple of very long conversations with Gary Ruff of Calvary Chapel Sun Valley. He was a filter for Raul Ries and David Rosales who are both on Bob Grenier’s Board at Calvary Chapel Visalia.

    I sent all kinds of correspondence to Roger Wing.

    Reached out to Brodersen, Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph, etc.

    Rolph and Gary Ruff are the only two who would dialogue. Rolph still will, Ruff won’t talk to me anymore…I don’t think he handled our conversations very well…I can be a little intense and I don’t miss anything in a conversation and have pretty proficient b.s. sensor.

    Gary told my brother Geoff that I was a “shark”…still no excuse. These guys are grown men and Leaders in the Church, they should be able to handle a little intensity and persistence…God knows they are intense and persistent when it suits them.

  121. Fortunately, I had already documented my attempts to privately contact Smith _prior_ to Smith’s public attack on me knowing full well that he might play the Matt 18 card. I out Matt 18′ed him because he never contacted me before he went after me in his message.

    My “attacks”, described as “scurrilous” by Smith were something that were reported to him, but he did not actually look at himself. So said Dave Rolph at the time. At the time, Smith didn’t know email from web (as the tapes show).

    Eventually, they admitted that their doctrinal statement, which was very sloppy on the Trinity, was in error. Larry Taylor wrote it and all of the top level CC pastors concurred. None of them caught the error – laid out in detail on the wiki. Larry is the one who admitted the error and made some limited attempts to tighten it up. You can still find it out there on some CC church sites.

    All of these years Smith has never contacted me personally.

  122. last comment in moderation…

  123. Maybe tonight I’ll put up Smith’s comments on 1981 – where he denies teaching it….

  124. Alex, their real Achilles heel is the resurrection. Smith’s view of the resurrection of Christ and the believer as well as his statements which are essentially soul-sleep are patently false and well outside the pale of orthodoxy.

    Again, it’s one thing to hold error personally, yet another to teach it publicly and if Paul was writing today, I think he’s say even worse to put it out on broadcast media.

  125. None of this was a Matthew eighteen situation anyway…

    It has always been a first timothy five deal.

  126. Well here is the short and skinny of it. I have just learned of this “so called scandal.” Everyone, please back down. Take a deep breath, use the spirit of the Lord, and PLEASE
    listen to what I have to say. I no longer attend Calvary Chapel, (by my choice) The reason I left was because of Bob Larson’s example. I played for a few years on his Praise and Worship Team. It was his selfless example, and dedication to our Lord that made me leave because I could not truly say to myself that I was serving the Lord, as set by his selfless example. My wife and I both served the church, in music and child care. I have NEVER seen anything but love and caring for the children under Calvary Chapel care, and an unending concern of Pastor Larson, and his wife, for the sake of children of the church or his flock. This man is human, and fallible, but I wish I had one percent of the faith and determination to serve as this man. I am sickened and outraged, that this man should be so judged, he is the soul and embodiment of Christian love. We are only talking about business mistakes, yes questionable, but have you the right to call this man not a servant of God? No…you truly do not understand, and I beg your tolerance. If you see the situation as it really is, you’ll see the evil one working in the lives of all of us.
    May God praise Bob, and his family, and may you try to accomplish what he has done for the church and community.

  127. Bob: two words…. God Bless…
    Scott
    grey0417@yahoo.com

  128. Scott, my buddy Lyle Ferguson vouches for Bob Larson as a good dude…but like you said, he’s fallible. I think he made a mistake in how he handled (or didn’t handle) the situation that this thread discusses. If he’s the guy my friend tells me, then I bet Bob learned a lesson from it and will do better next time.

    We, in the church, have got to take child abuse and child molestation very seriously and err on the side of protecting the kids, who are “the least of these” as Jesus seemed to teach.

  129. Scott, I tend toward being petty cynical. Your comments seem pretty over-the-top…were you being sarcastic? If not, my apologies.

  130. if one was to look deeper into others who have overseen this Calvary Chapel kids program, it would apear that this kind of stuff has happened before. As a matter of fact 2 men that have been involved with the “childrens church” have gone to prison for some of the same crimes that are now trying to be dismissed as “the child says that all the time”.
    Maybe just maybe the child says that all the time is because there is a bit of truth in what the child is saying, and NO ONE is listening.
    It is one thing to dismiss the alligation after it is found to be untrue, but to dismiss it with out investigation is appaling.

  131. Does anyone ever listen? these kids are not only being physically abused but their not listened to either and we know how the people who pretend to be church goers are really sadomasochist pedophiles hiding out in the churches and posing as Christians.We should call IDHW every week just as a precaution so that these nasties can be weeded out, kind of a permanent and ongoing preemptive investigation.Or maybe we should just hire the thought police so we can combat pre-crime. Boy if IDHW hadn’t been there, I don’t think they could of remedied the issue, after all, thats why the IDHW is there to find the nasties, I mean thats their job and thats no conflict of interest when you get paid to search out the bad guys cause bad guys are everywhere and there is always a plethora of possible suspects who are just waiting to cooperate in any way they can, people just pop up out of nowhere and have bad guy written right on there forehead.We should start hiring children to administrate church policies that way they will be heard.

  132. You guys made a big mistake, I am friends with pastor bob parson, and I confronted him about this, he said he has never been sued, the person you are talking about is PASTOR BOB CALDWELL NOT BOB LARSON. Pastor bob caldwell is the head of Calvery chapel boise and had been sued before, bob LARSON has not! Please correct this because my pastor is worried about being deframed! He did nothing wrong! I want this changed now!

  133. zath, if what you are saying is true, you have bad intel.

    Here is a copy of the lawsuit from the court records. It is Calvary Chapel Caldwell.

    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Roesler_v_Calvary_Chapel_Caldwell.pdf

    The link is available in the article above for you to click and review.

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