Apr 212012
 

Calvary Chapel Melbourne and Pastor Mark Balmer accused of going on the attack when confronted by long-time non-member member of the "we are NOT a denomination" Denomination (or Calvary Chapel) over Financial Disclosure. Another example of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel's DNA of Financial Opacity, spiritual abuse and not being "the Servant of All" as Jesus commands.

Chip Rohlke says:
April 19, 2012 at 7:30 am

Calvary Chapel Melbourne issue of financial disclosure:

I thought I’d attach a letter I sent Pastor Mark Balmer about my situation with the church here in Melbourne (I’ve been attending for 12 years). I’m very disturbed about the lack of financial disclosure and the way the church reacted to my questioning it. I wrote Chuck Smith who I met on a trip to Israel with him in ’93 but got no response. I’d like to let all those who attend [Calvary Chapel Melbourne] know what’s going on but haven’t figured out a way to do it. After that I’m leaving it in God’s hands and feel it’s all I can do to change things.

Chip Rohlke
President, Christ is Creator Ministries

May 10,2009

Dear Pastor Mark:

I’ve been involved in Christian Ministry for 28 years and only once was I called before the elders of a church for discipline. The sad thing is that it wasn’t for a moral failure like fornication, or stealing, or lying, or being abusive. It was for asking a simple question within a church body- “Are the churches finances open to examination”. Now that’s an amazing thing…for nowhere in scripture did I see church authority to impose intimidation and coercion in an area of non-Biblical areas of procedure and preference like financial transparency. Funny how pagan companies and government are required to be totally transparent but the church of Christ isn’t?

I’ve struggled with writing you about this for many months for when your elders called me to meet with them I was subjected to something that I can only describe as a form of spiritual abuse. Never in my life have I been so humiliated, character and motives questioned, intimidated and coerced into accepting what is generally described by numerous pastors I’ve met with as ‘a very bad policy and borderline abusive reaction’. I talked this over with the Pastor of the 1st Baptist Eau Gallie, Larry Booth (Our Father’s House), Jack Taylor, Dr. Francis Schaeffers staff at L’Abri, and Billy Graham’s ministry.

All without exception were not surprised by what happened to me but sad that any church would behave in such an unbiblical and un-Christlike manner-not to mention they all thought financial disclosure was essential to a healthy church. Reminds me of Martin Luther at Wurm where the church wanted to kill the messenger rather than hear the message.

Personally I was offended when the elders at this meeting impuned my character and also rejected the idea that I could be speaking for God. What arrogance! When I wanted to meet with you to discuss this you told me in the commons, “I’m not interested”. In my 15 years with Peter Lord’s church he would have never said such a rude thing to any of his flock…no matter how he felt about them. But I guess you’re not Peter.

I hope you take this in the right light. Whether you change your policy or not is between you, the church and God. In any case I certainly think a public apology is warranted. Otherwise I’m planning on going public with this experience that the body might be aware that the church is entering an area of control that I have only experienced in religious cults.

Sincerely,
Chip Rohlke

 Posted by at 7:35 am

  153 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Melbourne and Pastor Mark Balmer…Allegations of “very bad policy and borderline abusive” and combative attitude toward financial disclosure”

  1. This is terrible! I would like to interview you for my podcast Remnant X Radio – you can email me at remnantXradio@yahoo.com

  2. Par for the Course with Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith’s terrible Leadership.

    If Mark Balmer of Calvary Chapel Melbourne went Calvinist, Chuck Smith answers the Letter from Rohlke and tells the CC Reformed Pastors, “GET OUT OF MY MOVEMENT!” What a lying sack of…

  3. Hey Chuck, how ’bout telling the Pastors who don’t publish their finances or provide them to those who give and attend to “Get out of MY MOVEMENT!” How ’bout you tell that to the Child Abusers, Child Molesters, Spiritual Abusers, Adulterers and Crooks as well. Nope, b/c they’re just following part of your example.

  4. I had to reread #4 Alex. I knew that Chuck and Costa Mesa would not issue a statement against child abuse when asked to by remnantxradio. But I was remembering the remnantxradio phone call with you and Chuck. Chuck did finally come out against child abuse when pressured by Jeremy Bowling. Now to why I had to reread your comment. Chuck DID NOT tell them to get out of HIS MOVEMENT. Your right he did not. :)

    Now haven’t they taken away the dove from those with calvinist leanings?

    (As far as HIS MOVEMENT. I say that because I seem to remember an interview CS did and he was given all the credit for the Jesus Movement. If that is true then I know all I need to know about it!)

  5. A challenge for those in Calvary Chapel!

    I double dog dare you to simply ask a few questions about finance as Chip Rohlke did. (This I believe is why this site came under attack, and has encouraged me to post more)

    Now pay attention to their reaction, body posture, and facial expressions and then be prepared to be shunned and accursed of the devil by your pastor. Don’t think so? Take a witness not related to you and go ask, then come back right here and post your results!

    Look forward to hearing from y’all. Video taped reactions uploaded to youtube would be much appreciated. I find humor is truly good for the soul and is a great part of the healing process. Hurry back now ya hear.

  6. Well, mentioning Francis Scheffer I don’t show as much support for the Late Francis Scheffer since his son Frank is now sort of a Eastern Orthodox agnostic not certain about whether God exist and has a big ax to grind with Evangelcals and Roman Catholics concerning almost anything he writes these days. Nothing wrong with him wanting to be a democratic but the man is spends hours on his books dealing with his past with his father and mother even the Eastern Orthodox think something is wrong with Franky.

  7. I watch a Sunday broadcast of Chuck Smith on the internet. The illness is taking its toll and the church had some empty seats. ITs getting to be a smaller chuch than it was in 1990 when I left it. Maybe, some people go to the Smaller Calvary in the area but Chuck’s church lots older, over 75 percent above the age of 45 and probably about 49 percent 55 and older. Too much local competition from Rick Warren and people that move out of OC since its expensive compared to other places, and probably Chuck and even Brian Broderson aging as well.

  8. My “go to” point when talking with a currently attending CCite is to ask if they believe in financial transparency for the church. They always say, “Yes.” So then I challenge them to simply ask to see the finances of the church. So far we are batting a 1000. Every one who has asked has received a poor response and then either been creatively removed just for asking, or it showed the people just how much the pastor is hiding the finances and they realized they needed to leave.

    Simple litmus test. Just try it.

  9. I hear you loud and clear. I find this quite interesting. There is a lot of complaining about our current administration within Calvary Chapel’s. I have heard CC pastors complain about the administration being the least transparent in all of history. Well the least transparent administration is 100 fold more transparent then your local Calvary Chapel.

    Think about that for a bit!

  10. Grateful, that is excellent. Good litmus test indeed.

    Jeremy, yes, ironic isn’t it? CC, especially the Orange County boys, are very conservative politically and not a fan of Obama, etc….but as you say, they are the biggest spinners and liars and about as transparent as an onyx.

  11. Cynthia, yes, old Chuck doesn’t look good, no matter the spin and happy talk they front. The cancer is getting him…

    You’d think he’d use it as an opportunity for reflection and “leaving his gift at the altar” to seek reconciliation and repentance…but nope. Not his style. He’ll simply lie and deny…and die.

  12. @ #8: “I watch a Sunday broadcast of Chuck Smith on the internet. The illness is taking its toll and the church had some empty seats. ITs getting to be a smaller chuch than it was in 1990 when I left it.”

    When Chuck appeared on TBN Dec 2011 I’m pretty sure he made the claim that the attendance at CCCM was 25,000. It seemed exaggerated to me then and still does now. CCs obsession with numbers is so obviously unscriptural. I’ve noticed they use their numbers as a defense for everything.

  13. Well, Chuck is probably thinking about all the Calvary in Orange County. And Riverside Harvest is larger and so is Mr Rios church in Diamond Bar and the one near Gardena is larger according to the mega-churches article Get this Chuck didn’t even vote for Gerald Ford in 1976 against Jimmy Carter, and Chuck voted for a thrid party right winger in the American Party he stated his perforamnce then.. I still voted for Ford since Carter didn’t appeal to me like he did to other Evangelicals. I’m not fond of Obama either like the Clintons better and I’m going to vote for the Mormon Mitt Romeny since he was a Republican in a blue state like Ma and is a business man, somewhat similar to Reagan, I didn’t agree with Reagan on all issues. either.

  14. Rick Warren is growing while Chuck Smith and Robert Schuller-now his daughter Shelia Coleman are declining. Part of its generation, Chuck Smith had about 20 percent of his congreation died since they were middle age and older in the early 1970′s. The young people that are still in Calvary from the other days are in their 60′s. Schullar about 40 percent of the people that went to Garden Grove Community in the early 1960′s are died. The other members are mainly over 60. Rick Warren who got his start in the 1980′s and built up the church in the 1990′s, has people around 44 to 60 and also has a larger crowd under 44 than the two other figures.

  15. Ran into someone who is so deep into the Kool-Aid that he left one verifiably abusive CC pastor and is now defendimg another unrepentant in clear biblical sin CC pastor. If one just conforms and follows what they learned growing up in CC, then they keep these guys in business. It is just so painful to stand there knowing this guy is that blind, lacks that much common sense. The more he defended the ex-pastor the more foolish he looked. He has no clue that ex-pastor is using him as a pawn to try and rehabilitate his image.

    So the pawn says how great the ex-pastor’s family is doing, as if that indicates repentance (which is doesn’t.) The pawn has no clue what the children have been able to secretly communicate to others. The wife pretends and has openly admitted to pretending with her husband since (implied) he’s such a bully and doesn’t see anything besides his point of view. The kids have learned to pretend with their dad, as well. Both parents would be surprised to learn what plans the kids have. (and I suspect he reads here … so you’ve been warned. You do not have an ability to control them completely … no matter what you do. Repent now!)

    Note to self: Don’t defend the unrepentant, especially when you are the new guy … and the people to whom you are giving this defense are rolling their eyes because they have been around a long time, enough to know the serious offenses that occured before the pastor got caught falling.

  16. Grateful, I believe there is an illness called, “battered Wife Syndrome” where the victim keeps coming back for more abuse both physical and emotional because it somehow fills a need…

    Maybe we can coin our phrase called, “Spiritual Abuse Syndrome” for people who continually allow abusive pastors to molest and rape them spiritually, and knowingly they keep coming back for more.!?!

    WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! This is not what the Bible teaches!

  17. oaccg,

    I have known of a woman who stayed with the abuser, not because it filed a need, but because they had no where else to turn, and there is a lifestyle they are living that would not be possible if they left. So they trade the abuse for material posessions, and become so addicted to shopping, spending, that they are able to rationalize that there are more benefits to staying then leaving. The abuser sets this up by giving them credit cards, fancy cars, dream houses, expensive vacations, etc, to keep them and ultimately control them. If they go out on their own, which they tried to do, they have a much harder time than staying and putting up with the abuse. I guess to them its a trade off…but really selling your soul.
    It’s very sad, because the abuser is an enabler, and controls the other persons life. The abused will have to suffer the shame of leaving this person and settle for a much different lifestyle if they leave.
    So, I dont necessarily agree that it fills a need (the abuse) but maybe the relationship due to other benefits does. It would be hard for me as a woman to believe that being abused by a man fills a need as you say.
    I think, ratehr that having a woman he can control and abuse fills the mans need, and satisfies the womans lifestyle to the point where she can push the abuse/unhappiness aside.
    In your example, perhaps there is no material benefit. I was just thinking that most of the successful Pastors have the lifestyle I am thinking of, and so their wives

  18. Re: Hannah —

    “I have known of a woman who stayed with the abuser, not because it filed a need, but because they had no where else to turn, and there is a lifestyle they are living that would not be possible if they left. So they trade the abuse for material posessions, and become so addicted to shopping, spending, that they are able to rationalize that there are more benefits to staying then leaving.”

    This is EXACTLY what we see going on in this situation. They took a LOT of money with them when they left, not to mention how much they lived off of (inappropriately by any standard) when they were getting paychecks and perks from the church. Shopping is the key addiction.

  19. @Grateful-”Shopping is the key addiction”

    It must be hard to have so much surplus.

  20. Interesting how the spammer/s think what is being communicated here is important enough for them to invest their time here.

    So I’ll repeat it just for clarity … Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier of Visalia, California, needs to repent of his verifiable Biblical sins (as well as the other ones.)

    Many CC pastors (and all those who support and enable them) need to repent of their verifiable Biblical sins (as well as the other ones, too.)

    The CC affiliation/fellowship/movement or whatever you want to call it, needs to reform and ensure accountability for pastors, throwing out the unbiblical Moses Model style government, and ensure accountability for the finances … as well as healthy tranparancy.

    The rest is details ….

  21. Thanks for removing the spam, Not Alone! They have been very busy!

  22. You are welcome. I don’t know why we have become the target. For every 10 I take out there are a hundred more the filter already stopped. It’s working overtime this week :)

  23. If it’s not someone/s specifically targeting the site, then it could be the fact that the viewership has gone up and garnered the attention of the trolling equal opportunity spammers. But I think it curious that it started after CC pastor Mark Balmer was called out on his hiding how he handles the finances and punishes those who ask about it.

  24. The spammers have been active. It’s an attack from the devil!!!! ;-)

  25. I wouldn’t expect a Wolf to repent. Rather let’s warn others to stay far far away from them.

  26. I posted this before on another lead, but here it is again about my pastor’s response to our question about “Could we look at the finances”

    This happened in January. After reading on this blog, decided to apply the “litmus test” as Grateful mentioned above.

    Asked through email if we could obtain a yearly financial statement. Was told that if we were “faithful givers” we could schedule an appointment with the administrator and come in and see the books, since they don’t do a yearly statement.

    That certainly raised a red flag and we took it as a sign from the Lord to get out of there…we didn’t subject ourselves to the humiliation of going and making an appointment.

    Query: If between 1000 and 2000 people give to this church annually, and there are 365 days in a year, the administrator would have an average of 3 people examining the books per day. She’d be REALLY busy, wouldn’t she…unfortunately I’m sure hardly anyone ever thought to ask…

    Sorry for you Chip Rohlke but the LORD will give you greater discernment in the future. You had so much more invested than we did. Hope the Lord is healing you now as he is healing our family.

  27. Sue tells the truth. I back her statements of what happened.

  28. Had a conversation with a CEO of a CC encouraging them to have accountability with the elders and board, along with financial accountability. They were “doing business” the way Sue’s CC pastor told them to. They thought they could just trust his way since he’s “successful.”

    What I’m finding is that when I ask these pastors and assistant leaders if they’ve read the by-laws they look at me with a blank stare. THEY ARE NOT READING THEIR OWN BYLAWS! They just take them from other big leaders and trust they are good.

    This seems to be indicative of a group that draws the either uneducated or those who just want to trust someone to take care of the details for them. Either way, there is a lack of thinking going on. Well, I guess I should say there is either a lack of thinking or they are deviously smart and understand what a goldmine they are sitting on when their by-laws give them all the power without any accountability.

  29. Grateful,

    So true. Even though I had been through several bad church situations previously and learned great things from the LORD through them, I am embarrassed to admit that I was totally not even thinking of asking about the finances. We were just so grateful to be in a church where the word was being taught verse by verse. How could we go wrong, we thought.

    And yet, the enemy was at work there too. We were at that Calvary almost 2 years and didn’t even think of asking to see the books because the preaching was so good…assumed all was well!

    Well, it was not obviously and this site opened our eyes and then we asked the pastor and he told us they do not do yearly statements or anything. A good friend of mine who is a CPA says he thinks an annual audit probably runs around $70,000 but this is a big church and they can afford it. They are definitely NOT a member of ECFA (Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability) and I doubt any Calvary Chapels are members of ECFA.

    Test the waters and see what your CC says. So sad about the other one Grateful mentioned where they just don’t want to see what is going on with the finances. In every epistle of Paul, Peter, John, Jude, etc. one common thing among False Teachers is love of money and immorality. They always appear together.. I know of no immorality in my ex-pastor, but it would not be brought out unless God revealed it and it could just be a matter of time because of no financial accountability.

    May you see the truth and may He set you free.

  30. CCs are in line for either a reckoning/judgment or a BIG humbling/repentance when it comes to financial accountability and accepting some correction and admonishment concerning the Moses model. I hope for their sake and the sheep they are charged with that they embrace the latter before they are left with no choice but to face the former!

  31. Every time I got into a discussion about finances with Calvary Chapel Chandler Pastor, Rudy Paredes, you could see his frustration in having to address the issue. With concerns to handling finances for ministry, in our case video ministry and sound, he was pretty inconsistent in his responses as to how the ministry would be equipped or funded. The token response of, “Where God guides, He provides,” was used. Sometimes the response subtly implied that individuals in charge of the ministries supplied some of the costs like CDs, DVDs, printer ink, etc., and other times he would contradict himself saying the board would need to approve of a budget, which it (he) never seemed to get around to. We served on the sound, multimedia, and video ministry with increasing commitment in time and personal resources from about October 2008 until around November 2010 when we decided to finally up and leave without explanation, withdrawing from fellowship at Calvary Chandler.

    When we left, we didn’t cause a stir in their fellowship by trying to cause a division among other “members” (no formal membership at CCs– a little upset that CCs see their faithfully tithing congregants as “units”). We figured we could be as equally “elusive” in leaving, as the pastor was about the supposed board’s handling of finances. Upon later investigation, we come to see just how the business of CCs is structured by the Articles of Incorporation by a 501C-3 when we see Rudy named as not only President but also Director. Further, upon reading that he can fire and restructure “his” board as he sees fit, we realized the utter lack of true accountability to the faithfully tithing congregants or servants in ministry.

  32. This has always been a big issue for me. Why won’t they show the budget? Hey if everything is on the up and up, then there shouldn’t be a problem….right? What about all the elderly giving to the church? Most of them give generously and believe their money is being used to advance God’s kingdom….but is it? It makes me sick and angry at the same time. Everyone, without question should be given a detailed budget at least annually.

  33. Tina,

    @33

    It would more than likely reveal some uses of funds which are not so much on the up and up, so it’s unlikely they would want to give a full account of how money is used.

  34. Re: Andy @ 32

    Exactly! Same experience, different state, different CC church.

    The amount of common sense I had to ignore to think their lack of accountability was okay was enormous!

  35. There are some attention-grabbing time limits on this article however I don’t know if I see all of them center to heart. There is some validity however I will take hold opinion until I look into it further. Good article , thanks and we would like extra! Added to FeedBurner as well

  36. Chip, you should have left it in God’s hands to begin with.

  37. Rob Crosby said, “Chip, you should have left it in God’s hands to begin with.”

    Rob, that is total bull.

    How do you assume that God didn’t use Chip to confront the situation? You presume much.

    “Leave it to the Lord” is CC Code for: Do nothing in the face of corruption, abuse and wrongdoing.

    Folks, don’t buy it. It’s a manipulation technique to guilt good men into doing nothing when confronted with wrongdoing.

  38. 09
    Jun
    Congregational Government is From Satan

    NOTE: the tone of this post is intentionally aimed at influencing those who are engulfed in this system of church government that neither honors the Scriptures nor advances the gospel.

    That’s right! It’s actually the title to a book I have had percolating in my mind for a long time. After almost 30 years in ministry I have come irreversibly to this conclusion: congregational government is an invention and tool of the enemy of our souls to destroy the church of Jesus Christ. So there, I have said the strongest part of the message first; now some commentary.

    1) Congregational Meetings Are Forums for Division:
    When church life is going well, the leaders of a church struggle to get a quorum for decision making. When things are going wrong, every carnal member lines up at a microphone to spew their venom and destroy the work of Christ in the church. I saw it growing up, and I have seen it since in churches that are fighting to survive and do something courageous for their future. Good people being held hostage by bad people, minorities hijacking the majority because a set of ‘by-laws’ get higher regard than the Scriptures. Satan does want to rip church unity to shreds like a devouring lion (1 Peter 5:8). He is accomplishing that again and again through a system of church government which elevates the fleshly and the worldly—often even those who no longer attend—to a status of influence equal to the most spiritually and biblically-minded in any congregation.

    2) Voting Is Not Biblical
    The right to vote may be an American right given by the Constitution, but it is not a kingdom right given in the Word of God. It may be a tradition of some wonderful streams of church history, e.g. Baptist, but it is not biblical. There is not a shred of biblical evidence for a congregation voting on what its direction should be, but many church members believe it is their ‘God-given right’ to stand in judgement over the Pastors and Elders that are seeking to lead them. Even Mark Dever, a personal friend, champion for congregationalism, and credible scholar admits, “But the functioning of a purely congregational system is both unwieldy and lacking biblical support. Instead the establishment of a body of elders to serve in the day-to-day leadership in spiritual matters, serving at the pleasure of the congregation, enables us to maintain both the traditional distinctive of congregational life and the clearly biblical structure of elders.”

    3) Eldership Is Sometimes Unpopular
    Elders are responsible to “shepherd the flock” (1 Peter 5:2), which is often a very dirty job. Calling out sin, dealing with those who have fallen and seeking their restoration (Galatians 6:1-4), these responsibilities put Elders in positions where doing the right often means doing the unpopular. To then force the Elders to submit to a referendum on their actions is crushing to good men and destroys the work of God in a church. Rather, coming under a group of godly men will always be the best opportunity for a church to live in submission to God’s Word and Spirit. In recent years we have seen many churches taken captive by a few vocal people who, like Alexander the coppersmith exposed by Paul in 2 Timothy 4:14, do “much harm.” The Elders spend the majority of time trying to keep these blasphemous enemies of the gospel in line and often finish their term of leadership crushed by the weight of unrelenting criticism.

    4) Congregationalism Crushes Pastors
    Statistics tell us that Pastors move every 2-3 years and that a pastor typically leaves a church because of 8 people. If you wonder how just eight people can so resist and refuse and ruin the calling of a gifted and trained messenger of the gospel then you have not spent much time in congregational settings. Just one elder’s wife, or one women’s ministry director, or one chairman of the building committee can consume a pastor and erode the support he needs to serve the church well. A lot of the men writing today in favor of congregational government defend it as a tradition, and are so effective as leaders that they are able to suppress the inevitable uprising of carnality—but that is not so in the vast majority of small congregationally-stifled churches. I could retire now if I had banked a hundred dollars for every time a Pastor wept to me on the phone or in person about the crushing weight of a local ‘church boss’ who would not listen to Scripture or reason or God’s Holy Spirit. Many of the Pastors who have come into Harvest Bible Fellowship these past years have come seeking a new model of church government that frees them from the tyranny of the untrained and untrainable.

    5) Priesthood Not Eldership of All Believers
    A significant plank in the platform of biblical protestantism has been the priesthood of all believers. This is the idea that all of us as followers of Christ have equal standing before God and do not need a clerical intermediary in our relationship with the Lord. Sadly, though, this has led in many congregations to the Eldership of all believers—where each person, regardless of training, giftedness, fruitfulness, experience, etc., considers their thoughts about the future of a given congregation to be of equivalent value. Satan uses this expectation to create in people a demand to be heard, an insistence that their thoughts on the future of a church—no matter how quickly formed, or singularly held—receive validation equal that of a Pastor/Elder. When the vote takes place people are polarized, and factions sit back and wait for the plans they did not support with their vote to fail. (Sadly similar to the way most people view a president for whom they did not vote). It’s impossible to reconcile that process with:
    Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give an account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”
    Down with congregational government. Not the people who believe in it or appreciate its history, not the good or bad people who try to function well in a bad system—down with the system itself. Let’s send congregational government back to hell where it came from. It’s unbiblical, unhealthy and too often a tool of Satan for the discouragement of good Pastors, godly Elders, and local churches everywhere.

    You are welcome to engage in this discussion. Let’s stick to biblical defenses of congregationalism (which should be a short section) and anecdotal evidence of its effectiveness. I expect also to hear from Pastors who have suffered under its tyranny.

  39. Alex-Don’t you have your own family to worry about and the finances in your own home. The bible leaves the issue of church government open and only tells us to submit, as to the Lord, our leaders and those in authority over us, both physical and spiritual. Yes there should be accountability, but if we are earnestly praying for our leaders and pastors, elders, and teachers, which is what we should be doing, then we leave it in God’s hands to direct our leaders to make right decisions for the Church which is the body of Christ. God is the judge of motive of the heart and while I agree that if the finances are asked about, that the response should not be to run the members off. But again there is nothing scriptural that tells us how church government should be handled. As Christ followers we are all to be good stewards and accountable to one another as heirs to the kingdom, but that doesn’t mean that every member is entitled to see the books. Look at the fruit of what the finances bring. What was the motive for even asking about the finances? Members who go looking for trouble usually find it.

  40. Rob Crosby, big ‘ol Red Herring.

    The issue is not necessarily about Congregational Rule…how about some Financial Transparency?

    Like a Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor said at this past CCSPC 2012:

    “If you’ve got nothing to hide…you’ve got nothing to hide”.

    Open the Books. It’s a Church. What are they hiding?

  41. Rob Crosby said, “Yes there should be accountability, but if we are earnestly praying for our leaders and pastors, elders, and teachers, which is what we should be doing, then we leave it in God’s hands to direct our leaders to make right decisions for the Church which is the body of Christ. God is the judge of motive of the heart and while I agree that if the finances are asked about, that the response should not be to run the members off. But again there is nothing scriptural that tells us how church government should be handled.”

    We are to “judge” within the Church per Paul the Apostle.

    We are to be good stewards of God’s money in the church context.

    We are to expose the deeds of darkness (if there is bad stuff and wrongdoing going on in the church).

    I’m more concerned about the “motives” of Calvary Chapel Leadership that would deny opening the books, than the motive of the person asking.

  42. First of all we should not appoint ourselves as critics of the church. We are to judge each other in the love and exhortation of Christ, not because we are busy bodies and want a hand in what is going on. The people constantly complained against Moses during the exodus from Egypt and God disciplined them for it. Moses was God’s leader and messenger and he was accountable to God and those God put around him but not the people. Whenever the people complained about Moses leadership and what they were doing, they found themselves wandering the wilderness even longer. If God wants any of us involved in areas of the church he will put us there, but we should not ask questions just cause we think we are entitled to know. It would be the same if the church wanted to see your personal finances as a member of the church. do you feel your obligated to hand over your checking account information the them. No your not.

  43. We are to expose the deeds of darkness (if there is bad stuff and wrongdoing going on in the church). Only when we know there is something going on. We are not to go looking for trouble. Did you see bad fruit prior to asking for the finances? If not then leave it alone.

  44. My guess is Chip Rohlke had good reason to believe something wasn’t right there, that money wasn’t being spent in good stewardship.

    Your assertion in essence assumes the worst of Chip Rohlke, which is what you are accusing him of doing with CC Melbourne.

    The burden (and “higher standard” and “stricter judgment”) is on the Pastor and Church. If they’ve got nothing to hide, then they’ve got nothing to hide.

    Experience tells me that a Church organization that is sensitive to requests for financial information has something they are uncomfortable about in their records…or why not open the books?

    My church has open finances. No problems. Good accountability.

  45. You are in a dangerous place analyzing and criticizing everything this church does. If you have a problem with CC then move on and pray God would put you in a place that is perfect and totally scriptural. Sorry, you won’t find it. Every ministry has their flaws and the bigger they are, the more you can find, but we are not appointed to be their judge and jury. you are not helping fellow Christians to heal or vent, but dividing those that come on this blog. N o ministry is perfect and there will be those that use it for their advantage. Look at the prosperity gospel for instance. God exposes what needs to be exposed and you are treading on dangerous ground. Go about your life, love God and take care of your family. God builds and weeds the church, HIS CHURCH, not us. All these blogs sounds like a bunch of jealous bitter people who have nothing better to do than to complain about others. I stumbled on it when looking up something about the church. Sorry I did. What yo are doing is wrong and I hope you are not putting Gods name on it.

  46. I haven’t assumed the worst of Chip, I don’t know him, but when we go putting our nose in things that we don’t need to, unless there is probable cause, then we need put ourselves in situations that can cause division which is what is happening. In my opinion, the things that everyone complains about the church, you are no better. Everyone wants to come on here and quote scripture and make themselves look religious and spiritual , but you are no better than the ones you are criticizing.

  47. There is probable cause in each instance I’ve addressed. Testimony from “two or three witnesses” and my own personal experience and direct eye witness account.

  48. Rob, do you disagree with Paul the Apostle here then?

    You said, “but we are not appointed to be their judge and jury”

    Paul the Apostle says:

    1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

    Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    1 Corinthians 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?

    1 Corinthians 6:4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!

    etc etc.

  49. Rob said,

    “All these blogs sounds like a bunch of jealous bitter people who have nothing better to do than to complain about others.”

    Rob, I complained about not being able to see the finances of my CC. I found others had asked to see the books and were escorted out of the church. There were reasons to ask why a pastor had to spend the church money to buy a new car every two years, along with why there was no money to run the ministries. When the pastor told the workers, leaders in ministry to pony up the money themselves to cover expenses of what they were doing from Bible studies to the VBS, etc… there was reason to ask where the money was going.

    By applying pressure we finally discovered that the pastor had pocketed $200K in one year from the church’s till, ran up the church credit card $60K, and had paid staff do work on his house while in the church’s dime … just for starters … and only covering one year. What he did all those years before remains a secret.

    This pastor did this because he could, no one was looking. Everyone needs someone to look. We all need accountability. It was not those asking the questions that were “looking for trouble”; rather they were trying to apply accountability in order to avoid trouble, or stop it from going further.

    You also said we should leave it in God’s hands for Him to deal with; yet God uses people over and over again. He even calls us into account if we turn a blind eye to sin. He holds us accountable if we allow a leader to abuse others while we sit silently allowing it.

    Maybe you need to rethink your position on this.

  50. Grateful’s story illustrates why all CC finances should be out in the open. It’s a church and a non-profit, not a family for profit business.

  51. Understood if you have accounts where issues have been abused and misused, go to those individuals and confront them the way Paul said. I never disagreed with that point. Creating a website and analyzing everything the church does at this point is just plain unforgiveness. You are creating division among all Calvary Chapels and giving the name itself a black eye and without proper cause. The bible says to go to your brother with whom you have the disagreement and if he will not hear you, take tow or three yes, but not to create a website and sow discord among the brethren. Like I said prior, it puts you in no better place than them now. You are sowing discord and ding it in the name of the Lord. You are not exposing anything except your own hate and unforgiveness. How about creating a website that promotes the love of Jesus and counteract what you are calling abuse in the church. I assume everyone on here has left there prospective churches and are going elsewhere, but to continue day in and day out to promote this is wrong. Did Jesus continue to bash people after he confronted their sin, no he gave them the gospel and left it at that. In Corinthians, did Paul after confronting the churches at Corinth about their carnal behavior continue to talk about them in later chapters, no he did not. I am not in agreement with any wrong doing that any church does outside of scripture, but neither is is right for this website to be created in a self righteous manner.

  52. Rob:
    I’ve been reading your comments and I understand your position. However if Edmund Burke is right “Evil triumphs when good men do nothing”. If God immediately disciplined every Pastor & Elder that was doing wrong we wouldn’t have the issues we have in the church in general. Unfortunately the wheels of God’s justice grind slowly but exceedingly fine.
    Look..I love Calvary Chapel..Pastor Chuck baptised my Dad in Israel in ’93. I had dinner with Chuck & Kay and my Dad and I think the world of him. I’ve been involved with Chuck & his teachings since the early 80′s. His buddy Dr. Wilder-Smith was a dear friend of mine as was Edith Schaefer, Dr. D James Kennedy, Dumitru Duduman, Peter Lord, and other Christian leaders. All that to say it wasn’t until I went through leadership training at Calvary the the question of finances came up. I sure wasn’t looking for trouble but I grew up in Park Avenue Baptist Church(Peter Lord’s) in Titusville Fl where I could walk into the pastors office & see anything I wanted. I also was very influenced by Billy Graham’s financial philosophy and concerns.
    I got in hot water when I simple asked “Why” did they not open their books…why are only 7 people in the church able to see the finances (workers in bookkeeping are under a gag order to keep silent). I didn’t accuse them of wrongdoing & I’m not into drama and conflict but when I got slammed and verbally assaulted over even questioning that this was something God would be pleased with I ended up leaving the 90 minute meeting with the elders in tears.
    I’m 57 and a Chaplain & this is just plain wrong. They gave me the whole lecture about congregations causing trouble in budget meetings etc etc but I got the impression they just didn’t want the accountability. Make whatever excuse you want but financial transparency is critical & necessary for all spheres of life whether Church, government, or business. Especially the church- that claims the name of the Son of God.

  53. Thank you, Chip. That was excellent.

  54. Okay, let’s see how well Alex did:

    Matthew 18:15-17
    New Living Translation (NLT)
    Correcting Another Believer

    15 “If another believer[a] sins against you,[b] go privately and point out the offense”
    Alex did this many time over many years.

    “If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back.”
    * Bob Grenier (and others) did not listen or admit to sin.

    16 “But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses.”
    * Alex did this on more than one occasion.

    17″ If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church.”
    * Alex did this. They refused to listen or said they were powerless in the CC Moses Model leadership structure. Alex then told others in Calvary Chapel from leaders, associated pastors to Chuck Smith in person himself. Chuck even said he agreed that Bob had abused his kids, but he did nothing to correct Bob, only to punish Alex for what appears to be his “sin” of not kissing Chuck’s power/ring.

    “Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.”
    * Over and over again true church, universal believers, agree with Alex that there’s enough evidence and witnesses to accept these allegations. Why the Calvary Chapel leaders will not is mystifying and seems to be part of their internal political struggle – which I believe is sin on their part – and I suspect will be their undoing. So we treat Bob Grenier as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.

    I Timothy 5:20 now applies, Rob.

    “Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.”

    This is what is being done here. It’s not like any of us who’ve gone through this process, like myself, can get up at the church and warn others; so we blog to warn others. I know of many who’ve been warned and come to understand what happened to them through this site. They have, or are in process, of moving on to healthy places of worship for them … and wiser.

  55. Stuck in moderation :)

  56. As a attender at CC melbourne, i find this post to be inappropriate. CC melborurne and pastor mark exhibit no red or even yellow flags on how finances are handled. The only cimplaint you can make is that they dont feel it appropriate to open the books to all 7000 people that attend. Think about it for a minute. How much dissension that could bring the church because of “i dont think x is necessary” or ” why spend x on that” or ” i feel God wants me to do x ministry and so x can be cut from here and here to fund it”. The church belongs to God. Pastor mark is accountable to him. The board of elders is there as well. Financial accountability should be left to those God has placed in positions of leadership, not lay people. We are told by God submit to those He has placed in authority over us. If we are all seeking God, then there shouldnt be any major issues. If there is a financial abuse situation then God could tell us no longer to give money there ( us being the collective church and thus, since we are all listening to God) the church wouldnt have the money to continue and it would no longer be an issue. But, since not all the church does actually pray about where to give or where to go to church (seriously, once in a church people dont usually leave unless they move, get married/divorced or have an issue with the current church) how do we expect the church to open themselves up to the criticism of those who will see things in the financials that they may take issue with but God doesnt. God doesnt inform all 7000 of us how he wants His tithe spent. He does that through the leadership. And He will hold them responsible. We have to trust that our pastors and elders are listening to God. If you doubt they are, then why are you the pew listening to their sermons. I want to be where God wants me. I beleive, also, that would be a place where i could trust that the pastor is seeking, listening and obeying God with the content of the sermons and with the finances.

  57. Everyone welcome “Sigh” a pastor on staff at CC Melborn.

  58. “welcome Sigh ” – You sound scary indeed. I think it is a copout to not disclose finances because of possible “dissension”. People want to know where their hard earned money is going, and management doesn’t have to listen to them if they complain, but if people don’t like how the money is being spent, they can quit wasting their hard earned money. If “submitting” means to just trust and never question; that is what cults are about. It sounds so naive to say that God informs the leadership how he wants the tithe spent. That is just a plain lie – God is just not that clear with any of us. And leaders make mistakes because they are human and God doesn’t say things like “spend 2000 on this and spend 1000 on that”. Pastors and elders can “listen” to God all they want and people can enjoy the sermons but wanting to know where the money is going is just plain common sense. I work hard for my money and I want to know where its going wherever its given – church or out of church. I’ll never forget when Chuck Smith gave a check for $10000 dollars to a group from Israel without any discussion about it. I stopped giving money after that as that is not where I thought money I had “given to the Lord” would go. And I did not blindly just “trust” after that. I think it is absurd to ask people to just “trust” that their money is being spent properly and extremely arrogant on any leadership’s part to believe that all their decisions concerning money are “God directed and from God” – thats laughable – smells like cult behavior to me. ew ew that smell!

  59. Submitting isnt blind trust. And you should be submitting to the leadership God placed over you. If you are praying daily for Gods will in your life, you wont be submitting to ungodly leadership and therefore shouldnt have a problem. My trust is in God. Not pastor mark or the other pastors. They are human. If you have a hard time trusting, and must know the details of your money (besides jnowing that you gave it to God and He will use it as He needs/wills) then there are several demoninations that provide what you are looking for. Just because you disagree or have been jaded to where you can no longer trust that God is in control doesnt make it wrong the CC to be God leading the pastor and not a congregational voting church. To each his own, but dont bash a church for differing ideologies when the church is a bible believing, bible teaching church. (and no, im not a pastor.. Or on staff).

  60. Im worried that you wouldthink “its absurd on the part of the leadeship that all decisions concerning money are God directed and from God”. I would expect ALL decisons made by a pastor at any church to be God directed and from God.

  61. Sigh, unfortunately in my direct experience a Pastor can still take big advantage of finances even with a hand-picked Board and Elders.

    As a CC Senior Pastor said at the recent Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor’s Conference 2012: “If you’ve got nothing to hide…you’ve got nothing to hide”

    Transparency for the sake of accountability and good stewardship trumps what you stated here:

    Sigh said, “Think about it for a minute. How much dissension that could bring the church because of “i dont think x is necessary” or ” why spend x on that” or ” i feel God wants me to do x ministry and so x can be cut from here and here to fund it”. The church belongs to God.”

    Yes, so trust God that any issues arriving from being Transparent with your finances will be OK. The temptation with closed finances is too strong a pull and the opacity is gives the “Appearance of evil” etc.

    The “trust God” thing cuts both ways. Be Transparent and Open with your finances and trust God regarding your fears that some will question the expenditures.

  62. Sigh said, “We have to trust that our pastors and elders are listening to God. If you doubt they are, then why are you the pew listening to their sermons.”

    Not really. We have to realize our Pastors and Elders are human men and capable of sin and wrongdoing (many many examples of this, it’s a Constant)…and that Accountability and Stewardship are Scriptural Mandates and that openness is holy and a good check and balance against temptation.

    You seem to have an unhealthy faith in the infallibility of your Pastor and his Elders…which is a very big red flag.

  63. Sigh,

    How do you know about “red or yellow flags” when you know nothing and care to know nothing about where your giving is going?
    Submitting IS blind trust by your own admission.

    I think some Christians just don’t want to think these things through because they would not want to arrive at any conclusions that may cause them to doubt. Better to stay in the dark where they want you, than to shed light on the subject. If someone speaks out, they are disposed of. So we all learn how to stay in line, like good little manipulated sheep.

    Sue, good post.

  64. Sigh, I would encourage you to revisit the Priesthood of the Believers. You seem to have bought into some sort of Quasi-Apostolic belief system with regards to Balmer and his elders.

    Balmer is a man, a man who still sins, who is still capable of wrongdoing and left to his own devices can make sinful choices. He’s not Jesus, he is in fact fallible. He’s also not an Apostle and doesn’t have Pope Powers etc. (or maybe he thinks he does?). Balmer is not in the lineage of Apostolic Succession as the Roman Catholic Church claims of the Pope (as does the Eastern Orthodox).

    Balmer is a man who believes he is called by God to teach. That doesn’t make him some sort of special non-sinner who doesn’t require accountability. Balmer doesn’t have a special pipeline to God any more than the rest of us schmuck believers.

    Read the book of Hebrews dude.

  65. Alex,

    Why do you suppose that believers have lost the ability to think rationally when it comes to financial issues in the church?

    Is it all the unhealthy sermons on submission? Is it a kind of brainwashing?

  66. I would say to Sue: Who are you giving your money to, the church or to the Lord. Your obligation is to obey God and give with a cheerful heart. If you pray and ask God will show where to give give, to whom to give and how much. If he doesn’t want your money in CC then he will direct you through prayer. If you don’t give money because you don’t agree with how it is spent then you are not hurting CC, you are hurting yourself, because you are to be obedient to God first. Obey God and give and pray to him to show you what to do. If you are concerned about how it is being spent, then pray for guidance for the leaders and that God will show them how to spend. I think everyone is trying to take matters in there own hands and forgetting that there is a God and it is our job to obey him and not use scripture to tear down or cause dissension in the church. Yes expose and call to the carpet those that are in direct disobedience and sin, but be careful that you are calling out things that are scriptural and not just your own disagreement. No where in scripture does it say anything about financial disclosure to the members of the church. If God wanted you in charge of the money he would have put you there. You cant even begin to know what pastors and elders go through and what God has placed on there hearts as far as money goes. I think you should start by praying and asking God to start with you and change your attitude before you start pointing fingers and disobeying HIM

  67. Hannah, it is an unhealthy and unbiblical teaching and culture that reinforces blind trust and opacity at the expense of accountability and guarding against temptation and the appearance of evil.

    Yes, some of it is probably akin to brainwashing. You tell a lie over and over and over until it becomes truth for some.

    Some folks “need” someone to stand in the gap and represent “God” for them. They are easily duped by the “blind trust” dynamic presented by some Pastors and Authoritarian figures and are easily mislead that questioning is evil and sinful.

  68. Rob Crosby said, “I think everyone is trying to take matters in there own hands and forgetting that there is a God and it is our job to obey him and not use scripture to tear down or cause dissension in the church. Yes expose and call to the carpet those that are in direct disobedience and sin, but be careful that you are calling out things that are scriptural and not just your own disagreement. No where in scripture does it say anything about financial disclosure to the members of the church.”

    Yes and nowhere in Scripture is the word “Rapture” used and nowhere in Scripture does Jesus speak specifically against Homosexuality etc etc.

    Weak argument.

    Transparency, openness, honesty with regards to finances is assumed in the spirit of Accountability, Good Stewardship and being honest which are all principles strongly reinforced in Scripture.

    1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV) Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    Philippians 1:10 (Weymouth New Testament using modern language) so that you may be men of transparent character, and may be blameless, in preparation for the day of Christ

    If you’ve got nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to hide. “Transparent” character…

    If it is truly “God’s money” and some question the expenditures…who are you to say that God didn’t put that question on their heart? You assume only Leadership of that particular individual church is hearing directly from God and no one else is…

  69. Yes and nowhere in Scripture is the word “Rapture” used and nowhere in Scripture does Jesus speak specifically against Homosexuality etc etc. The bible specifically calls homosexuality a sin, in Romans and in the old testament in Leviticus. Yes the rapture is spoken of when it talks about being caught up with Christ.

    rap·ture Pronunciation (rpchr)
    n.
    1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
    2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
    3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

    The Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the “being caught up” discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 1 Corinthians 6

  70. Sigh and Rob Crosby,

    Probably more concerning and sinful is how Balmer responded to Rohlke’s requests regarding the finances.

    The knee-jerk (emphasis on the “jerk”) reaction is indicative of a very wrong non-Servant of All leadership philosophy. Very authoritarian and judgmental and not gracious and loving in the least.

    Bigger red flag with regards to how Balmer and CC Melbourn responded to Rohlke’s request…sinful in my opinion.

  71. Rob Crosby, I’m very familiar with the “Rapture” argument. I’ve studied Chuck Missler’s “Harpazo” argument.

    The point being that it is alluded to in Scripture, but the specific words are not used…similarly the words “Financial Transparency” are not specifically used in Scripture…but the principles of “transparent character” and being honest and open avoiding the appearance of evil and accountability and a “higher” or “stricter” standard for Leaders in the Church etc support Financial Transparency among stewards of “God’s money” as you put it.

  72. …for you and others to claim that Scripture doesn’t specifically speak to “Financial Transparency” with regards to church finances is a similar argument to claiming that the bible doesn’t specifically teach the “rapture” or use the word “Rapture”…

    Some will see the point, others won’t want to see it due to their agenda to protect opacity with regards to church finances.

  73. My experience with some in Calvary Chapel has shown me that “Leadership” will choose differing ways of interpretation of Scripture depending on what the issue is…and often for their own agenda and purposes.

    “Rapture” they see clearly even though Scripture doesn’t specifically use the word and doesn’t specifically teach very much on the subject, though they find many dots they connect to form an apologetic for what they’ve constructed as a Primary Issue.

    With regards to Financial Transparency, Accountability for pastors/elders and for Church Discipline…they take quite a different approach and start saying that there is no specific use of words to nail down a definitive clear cut guide for those things. Rather convenient don’t you think?

  74. If u reAd my comments, i did not even imply that i believe pastor mark was not human not sinfree. My focus is on trusting God. Rob said it much more eloquently. You are now attacking my faith, calling it weak and brainwashed because (1) i have a problem with calling out pastors for One incident that showed humanity…yet you preach how i can accept not knowing the details of the money because they are human.. (2) because i blieve 100% of mynincome belongs to God. Its not my money to begin with. He only asks for 10% back and i happily give it to where i feel God leading me to give it. It is my job to obey God with my tithe. It is not my job to micromanage or criticize the leadership in the church for how they feel God is leading them to use it. Thats between them and God. If you have serious doubts about the management of the finances at your church pray about it. He may tell you to approach the leadership, He may not. He may lead you to another church, He may not. Listen to God on that one. As far as the not knowing red or yellow flags…pastor mark does not , nor any of our pastors , live lavish lives. They live in moderate homes, not unlike my own. They dont have the latest and greatest. Cars. There are no outward signs of financial abuse.

  75. Sigh, you are commanded to be a good steward of “God’s money”….both you and the Pastor you give it to.

    Oh boy. This muddies the waters “He only asks for 10% back and i happily give it to where i feel God leading me to give it”

    Are you asserting the “tithe” is taught in the New Testament…yet you can’t see that a “church” and Pastor should be financially accountable and transparent?

    Can you please show me in the New Testament where the the “tithe” is taught and affirmed?

    The only mention of the word specifically is when Jesus rebukes the Pharisees in Matthew 23…no where does Jesus (or the Apostles) affirm a 10% tithe for New Testament non-Judaizer believers…

  76. 1 John 1:8
    “If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.”

    Pastors, board members and elders sin. All need accountability.

    In the CC moses model of church government let’s not forget that the board members and elders have no power since the pastor can fire them if they disagree with him or appropriately correct him. Besides, in CC there is a culture that teaches the elders and board members they are there to serve the pastor, not challenge him. They are to hear his words and decisions as from God, even if they are in contradiction to scripture.

    Example:
    * CC Castle Rock, CO pastor maintained that anyone asking to see the financials or questioning his financial decisions was looking for trouble.
    * People did not know how the finances were spent trusting that the pastor was a godly man making God directed decisions.
    * Years later the congregation found out the pastor pocketed $200K in one year, ran up the church credit card $60K in the same year. (The other years were not checked by the accountant. The amount stolen is still unknown.)
    * Comes to light that church paid workers were made by the pastor to work on his house but paid by the church. The pastor was procurring new cars every two years. The pastor was living a high lifestyle on the church’s dime through creative methods.
    * All the while the pastor was telling people they had to use their own money to supply the ministries they were in charge of. The mothers putting on the VBS had to pay for it themselves, because the pastor said the church wasn’t receiving enough money from the people, which was actually untrue.

    Pastors are humans. They sin. No one should ever just trust another without any verification, especially if money is involved.

  77. If u reAd my comments, i did not even imply that i believe pastor mark was not human nor did i i ply i believe him to be sinfree. My focus is on trusting God. Rob said it much more eloquently. You are now attacking my faith, calling it weak and brainwashed because (1) i have a problem with calling out pastors for One incident that showed humanity…yet you preach how i can accept not knowing the details of the money because they are human.. (2) because i blieve 100% of mynincome belongs to God. Its not my money to begin with. He only asks for 10% back and i happily give it to where i feel God leading me to give it. It is my job to obey God with my tithe. It is not my job to micromanage or criticize the leadership in the church for how they feel God is leading them to use it. Thats between them and God. If you have serious doubts about the management of the finances at your church pray about it. He may tell you to approach the leadership, He may not. He may lead you to another church, He may not. Listen to God on that one. As far as the not knowing red or yellow flags…pastor mark does not , nor any of our pastors , live lavish lives. They live in moderate homes, not unlike my own. They dont have the latest and greatest. Cars. There are no outward signs of financial abuse.

    In terms of thr handli g of this situation, i wasnt there. I do know from his own letter that the man was in the leadership training. If a leader disagrees with a foundational idea in an organization, should they remain a leader there? My thinking is the elders probably tried to explain why they believe the way they do with finances and this man disagreed. In a room where 10 people believe one way and another is questioning it, it can be an intimidating experience for the one not agreeing. Even if things are not said in an abusive eay, the whole situation can seem that way. If youve ever been a parent in an iep meeting for your childs school, youd understand. I leave those meetings in tears just because its stressul to be on one side and a room of people all agreeing with each other on the other. But none of them actually talk in a negative way, must matter of fact. Same idea, different setting. I have no doubt it was a hard meeting for this man. But i winder how much wasnt perception because of situation. Would it have been better to be a one on one? Maybe. Could pastor mark have taken his time to explain the why in the matter. Maybe. Im not saying it was handled perfectly, but again, they are human…not perfect. And writing s letter and posting it to this board because of a lack of public apology over an incident for one attendee isnt biblical either. So, we have a case of human meets human. Forgiveness and grace need to reign in this situation. (dont over generalize this situation because of abuses at other churches).
    I did not grow up in calvary chapel. I grew up in other denominations. I saw the bad effects of the type of church government you are asking for. Just like u saw too much in calvary chapel. Humans are in every church and denomination. The
    Problems and hurt feelings and abuses occur everywhere. Its a sin problem, the one that plagues all humans, not a denomination or church moveement problem.

  78. The apostle Paul charged the new elders appointed to the church in Ephesus (book of Acts) to protect the sheep. He warned that some would come in from the outside and try to destroy the sheep, while others would rise up from within the church body to do the same.

    We are to judge inside the church. We are not supposed to just trust the God will deal with them if they sin … NO… the people are to judge their leaders and elders are supposed to judge and act to protect the sheep whether they are identifying a wolf in sheep’s clothing in the leadership or in the congregation.

    The lie is just to trust God and then close our eyes to what goes on behind the scenes.
    Another lie is that our leadership will make all godly decisions.
    Another lie is that open finances automatically creates big problems. … Then how have so many churches had open finances throughout the years? It’s just a fear tactic so all controlling pastors can keep all the power. It’s a pastor not trusting God …

  79. to all who ‘still’ after much discussion on the Moses Model of leadership at CC and other churches,

    consider the exodus…
    Moses didn’t enter the promised land because he misreprersented God as a fed-up, petty, pi**ed off ‘god’. For that Moses was ordered to ‘die’ in the wilderness along with the other people who had rebelled at Kadesh Barnea.

    Read Hebrews some time. Because of Christ Jesus are not in the wilderness anymore, but we enter the ‘Rest’ or the Promised Land of relationship with God but without the Legal relationship that was under the Old Covenant. Today we are led by the greater ‘Joshua’ Jesus and directed by the Holy Spirit that no longer is restricted to One man entering into the Tabernacle ‘for us’. We all have access thru Christ’s death and resurrection in the power of the Holy Spirit. John even tells us that we no longer ‘need’ a man to teach us, but that anointing (yes, WE are the Lord’s annointed) that dwells in us teaches us all things.

    Old Mo’… well he got “Left Behind” and told to just ‘die’ without entering the Land…. probably not a good place to be and not a role model for the New Testament Church leadership structure.

    so don’t tell us to NOT question or challenge or hold the church leaders accountable… and don’t try to tell us to ‘just trust they are listening to God’. you sirs should consider that they aren’t the ONLY ones who are able to listen to God. We listen just fine and God says “stop pockin’ your fingers in the eyes of My annointed children so they won’t see what’s REALLY going on”
    -mike

    -mike

  80. Grateful said, “We are to judge inside the church”

    Yeppers.

    1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

  81. Sigh @ 78 said,

    “Problems and hurt feelings and abuses occur everywhere. Its a sin problem, the one that plagues all humans, not a denomination or church moveement problem.”

    So … since others sin we should not correct this sin?

    Is God pleased with our allowing sin to continue in our midst? Did Paul not tell us the sheep are to be protected?

  82. sigh (very appropriate name, by the way)

    “2) because i blieve 100% of mynincome belongs to God. Its not my money to begin with. He only asks for 10% back and i happily give it to where i feel God leading me to give it. It is my job to obey God with my tithe. It is not my job to micromanage or criticize the leadership in the church for how they feel God is leading them to use it. Thats between them and God. ”

    the tithe is NOT New Testament… please re-research why the tithe was collected and for what it was used. it may help you see why the NT doesn’t have any reference to the Tithe that was under the Mosaic Law. Besides, you ARE called to be a good steward of your/God’s finances. that INCLUDES making sure the church leadership isn’t just squandering and pi**ing it away. willfull ignorance is NOT faith and it is NOT ‘trusting God’ and it is NOT good stewardship.

    -mike

  83. I heard over and over again that we ought to be good stewards of God’s money.
    Doesn’t that include disclosure from the ones we are giving to?

    I am looking through the book of Acts (Chapter 4) and came to this. A sure cry from what the “church” is investing in nowadays.
    I assume sicne the believers were in “one heart and mind” they KNEW where their investments were going. Nothing hidden-nothing secret.

    32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

  84. I “trust God” with my money…and I don’t give it to Benny Hinn, or TBN or others who have opaque finances as that is a big red flag (and of course the fact Benny Hinn and TBN are charlatans and wolves).

  85. MIC,

    And the tithe was only for the Jews under the Mosiac. That shuts out about 90% of the “church” anyways…and also it was NEVER cash. Did you know that Jesus as a carptenter was exempt fromt he tithe? Only for farmers (grain, produce and cattle)

  86. Why is it that the synagogues today do not ask their Jewish members for the tithe?
    Why is it that the churches demand it?
    Why are the Jews, to whom it was given, not expected to tithe and and yet Christians are?
    Isn’t this a huge false teaching?
    I am speaking of the tithe, not cheerful giving which is instructed in th NT.

  87. Hannah cited this verse: “For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.”

    Yes…now the money seems to get stuck at the “Apostle”/Pastor level on big pay packages, trips, nice buildings, Conferences where they have to pay the CC Pastor Speakers (and their expenses) etc etc. Not so much goes to actually helping folks in many parts of Calvary Chapel.

  88. sinful in my opinion says you.. Like I said in my posts before….there may have been some wrong actions here, but that is not proof that there is something wrong becasue they didn’t open there books to you. you are interpreting scripture to mean what you want it to mean to accomplish your objective. That puts you right there in the same room with TBN and others. It doesn’t matter what the sin is, it’s all the same. you can try and justify what your are doing as love, scriptural, etc. but it is nothing but division. When Jesus turned over the tables in the temple and confronted them about what they were doing, he left it right there. He didn’t continue to harp on it, watch every move they made, report on everything they said. he went on his way and continued to spread the gospel. How many people are not hearing the gospel of Christ because you are spending your time being angry and causing division instead of spreading the good news. We may be in a position to encourage, love, reproof, rebuke each other, but our main goal is to spread the gospel of Jesus. Jesus said go and make disciples. He didn’t say go and tell everything that you judge to be wrong. I re iterate my thoughts form before in that you are seeing yourself as more self righteous as others cause you are upset that certain things aren’t the way you judge they should be. Is your life, or anyone on here, that righteous, or should we look at the sins you are covering up?SELAH

  89. “sinful in my opinion says you”

    Well yes, and likewise :smile:

  90. RC, you have no clue about the history of all this and my personal situation and disclosures etc.

    I’m not a pastor/elder. I am a regular “sheep”. The Qualifications 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 are for Pastors/Elders and the Standard and Judgment for Pastors/Elders is much “Stricter” and a much higher bar than the regular pew-sitting sinner.

    What I find in much of Calvary Chapel is strict OT Laws, Justice and Righteous Standard being applied to the “Sheep”…while the so-called “Shepherd” and “Under-Shepherds” get maximum grace to the point of Antinomianism.

    Many of you in CC, IMO, have it upside down.

    Be gracious to the Chip Rohlke’s and seek to be open to criticism and open with information and finances etc to avoid the “appearance of evil” and be the Servant of All.

    I don’t think Jesus would have a problem “opening the books” and I don’t think He’d have treated Chip Rohlke in the manner in which Mark Balmer did. Just sayin’…

  91. I’m not in agreement with Leadership hoarding over the church, the same as you. But I just don’t see the righteousness in what is going on here in this website. There are ways to handle things within the body and to continue to day after day destroy the personalities, leadership, etc. of CC is not good especially for those who are doing things right. All of CC is not as it is portrayed here and just as we don’t know your heart and the things you have gone through. Are you sure you know the hearts of the all the pastors and leaders of CC. All men stumble and fall, it is your job and mine as brothers and fellow disciples to pick them up, encourage, reprove, reproof and then go on in Christ. Do you honestly think that you are doing any good and helping those you say you are reporting by doing this? You should be on your knees praying for these men and asking God to speak into their hearts and that they will be guided by his will.

    There are six things the Lord hates,
    seven that are detestable to him:
    17 haughty eyes,
    a lying tongue,
    hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
    feet that are quick to rush into evil,
    19 a false witness who pours out lies
    and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

  92. RC you make the (unfortunately) typical assumption that none of us pray about this stuff.

    …and those things the Lord “hates” are very much rampant within Calvary Chapel Leadership…I have mountains of first person testimony, court docs, contradictory public statements, personal experience etc etc to prove such.

    The Lord does hate that stuff…and judgment begins in the house of the Lord. CC should spend more time repenting and less time deflecting criticism.

  93. And Christians should spend less time criticizing and more time learning to become Christ like themselves as well as spreading the truth of the gospel to those who have yet to believe. Remenber…our fight is NOT agaisnt flesh and blood. :-) may God give you all the courage to trust HIM completely, with every aspect of your lives and to forgive and learn to love those who have wronged you. Fight this battle on your knees, its the only place that will give you victory. To God be all glory and honor!

  94. I kinda agree that pretty much everything has been said about this issue I had at Calvary Chapel Melbourne. I hope my intention of bringing this issue to light has been honoring to Christ. My desire is for all churches to join Billy Graham’s ECFA and be 100% transparent but that’s ultimately between them & God. My purpose was not to whine about what happened but to bring public awareness of those attending what the policy really is. They can decide if it’s an issue with them or not.
    I’d like to see reconciliation between myself & CCMV but there seems to be no interest on part of the staff to pusue that. As a result I now attend CAV(Church at Viera) where Mark Ragsdale is the Pastor & they are transparent.
    I still love Calvary & go there occassionally so I have nothing but love for the people & staff there. We all need to walk in grace & forgiveness when wronged though bringing it out in the open may at times be necessary to protect others.
    Chaplain Chip

  95. I appreciate that you did bring it out into the light, Chip. You have given the warning by making the facts clear, which will help many more people than you will know. We are supposed to protect the sheep.

  96. John the Apostle said do not believe every spirit but to test the spirits because not every spirit is from the Father, Paul said that even from among your own number (Ephesian elders) men would arise not sparing the flock to get a following after themselves.

    And Paul also said let one prophesy and the others judge, so

    It seems some are advocating-

    • Distinction in Clergy (professional, priest), Laity (sheep)
    • New Testament tithing
    • No biblical teaching of financial transparency
    • Exposing bad teaching and behavior in religious leaders is not Christ like

    Clergy, laity
    Jesus taught the Apostles not to call anyone Father or Master because they had one Father (God) and one Master (Christ) and you are all brothers. The bible teaches that all believers are kings and priests (the minute someone puts on a robe or a collar or takes a title it seems an unbiblical position is taking place. Paul called himself an apostle but I do not believe he ever called himself Apostle Paul nor did Peter) and some men have gifts to build up the body of Christ for works of service, but does that mean to serve the CEO in the corporations we have today that we call churches?

    Jesus is our Great High Priest and did his Priestly duty when he died for our sins on the cross and is acting as our High Priest now seated at the right hand of the Father advocating for us.

    We have been given the priestly duty of announcing the good news and beseeching others to be reconciled to God through Christ, we can also do our priestly duty by praying for one another and another way is that if someone falls away you who are spiritual restore such a one. This seems to me better than gathering together to be entertained, pump patriotism, bash sinners and invite people to the professional priest to hear the “gospel”, then they can take a combined membership/ baptism class. Maybe the job is to build up Christians to do their priestly duty day in and day out as outsiders observe our teaching and lives and serve one another from the heart instead of depending on the Clergy, laity system.

    Yes the church needs to be organized with Servants (Elders and Deacons) overseeing and being examples but not corporations with CEO’s casting visions that God laid on their heart and we are supposed to fulfill with time and money or we need to find somewhere else. I thought church discipline was for sin not disagreeing with a project.

    New Testament Tithing
    Giving in the New Testament (YES), tithing in the New Testament (NO).

    This is a teaching that has become popular by the Word of Faith Teachers who wants your money and accepted by people who want to get money. Sometimes the verse to bring the tithe into the storehouse is used but that storehouse was the Temple and the Church is not a temple even though we call where we meet the “sanctuary”. God no longer lives in the Temple in Jerusalem but in his people. The tithe in the Old Testament was well more than 20% and used to run the entire nation…this can be easily studied out.

    I heard a Calvary Chapel pastor teach there is no tithe in the New Testament and then ask the ushers to come forward to collect the tithe???

    No biblical transparency
    Giving in the New Testament is clearly taught. An example is when the Gentile churches sent money to the Judean Christians who were suffering; did they not know where their money was going? Did Paul say just give me 10% and I will do what God tells me? No, they knew what the money was for before they gave and Paul took faithful brothers from the churches that had given as witnesses to do what was right not only before God but in the eyes of men. Pretty transparent!

    And was it so some could live the good life while others gave sacrificially or for equality as in he who gathered too much did not have too much and he who gathered too little did not have to little. Both are gathering (working) but some have more than enough and some to little so share and also help the weak. It’s not socialism and it’s not 10%, it’s not love this world, it’s agape.

    Paul also said that they were aware that with his own hands he had provided for his own means so not to be a burden to them, again pretty transparent.

    Supporting elders that do their jobs well is good but maybe it would be better if that was used less.

    Exposing bad teaching and behavior in religious leaders is not Christ like
    Read the Gospels. Woe to you scribes, Pharisees…hypocrites…

    The one in the wrong is the one that wants the victim to go away quietly and pray. That’s why human courts order the wrong doer to show up, but they would prefer to postpone.

    I’m saying alot in very few words; hope it is understandable enough.

    Grateful has been saying that there should be meaningful accountability in the church, I agree, knowing how weak we can be why wouldn’t a godly man want that?

  97. Q, good stuff…

  98. just to add…

    the tithe was required under the OT law for the support of the levites (who could not own property or work separate jobs to support their families) and for the support of the Temple sacrifices.

    since the temple is no more, and the sacrifices are no more and the levitical preisthood is no more…. and the OT Law given ‘only’ to the Nation of Israel is no more…. then the tithe is ‘no more’.

    -mike

  99. MiC, I can’t see how the “tithe” can be argued any other way…yet the teaching still persists in CC and in Evangelicalism at large.

  100. #18 Couldn’t let this one go. Hannah stated:

    “It’s very sad, because the abuser is an enabler, and controls the other persons life. The abused will have to suffer the shame of leaving this person and settle for a much different lifestyle if they leave.
    So, I dont necessarily agree that it fills a need (the abuse) but maybe the relationship due to other benefits does. It would be hard for me as a woman to believe that being abused by a man fills a need as you say.”

    Most batter women will return an average of 7 times before she leaves permanently. But not because it fills a need. Unknown to most, there are not enough beds to house a batter woman, particularly is she doesn’t have children. Because of the PTSD she has expereinced as result of many episodes of being battered, and or abused, on a 24/7 basis, her ability to cope on her own and not getting the support that is needed by family, friends, church, coworkers, and the court system, she at least knows what to expect from the batterer. By and large our community, providers, court system, friends, family and others do not understand nor want to take the time or do not have the time and patience that is needed to help, to sit with, to support a batter wife who is actually experiencing varying degrees of PTSD, along with being misjudged, and being told, “just leave him.” Sort of like saying, “that’s too bad, well let’s pray about, ” and go on your way. You feel good, but it sure in the heck didn’t change anything to enable her to go to a safe place where she can heal and her brain can begin to operate normally again. Remember, this person has lived with the reality that her life can be taken at any given moment. Many women who return don’t survive. They know this may happen, but to live on the streets, selling your body or drowning yourself in alcohol or drugs is far more unconsciousable. It is the one thread of human decency they have left within themselves.

    So, the next you see a lady of the street, don’t be surprise to hear them tell you they were once married and very much a part of the church. But no one believed her about being battered, abused, betrayed, and ultimatley abandoned, then revictimized as a result of the church failure to protect and to support her in her efforts to be safe and to hang on to what little was left to her and in her.

  101. “So, the next you see a lady of the street, don’t be surprise to hear them tell you they were once married and very much a part of the church. But no one believed her about being battered, abused, betrayed, and ultimatley abandoned, then revictimized as a result of the church failure to protect and to support her in her efforts to be safe and to hang on to what little was left to her and in her.”

    Should read:

    So, the next time, you see a lady on the street, don’t be surprise to hear them tell you ( and please, do ask them) they were once married and very much a part of the church. But no one believed her about being battered, abused, betrayed, and ultimately abandoned and discredited, as being something wrong with her, then revictimized as a result of the church’s failure to protect and to support her in her efforts to be safe and to hang on to what little was left to her and the hope, trust, and faith within her.

    Please keep in mind, not everyone has children and not everyone have family. And believe, if living with a batterer or anything like them, you don’t have “real” friends either. They all seem to scattered long before you “get it.” Has nothing to do with lifestyle or being used to living a certain way. It it called survival, hoping something will change or the next time you leave, you’ll be successful,

  102. Blind trust is not taking responsibility for the things that God has given us. We are to be good stewards of all that we have any control upon. How we spend our money, who we give it to, and what it might be being used for is very much our responsibility. We are not to be accountable one to another. Remember what happen to the couple who was to sell their land, but falsely reported the profit they made?

    When I am in the process of selecting a church, one of the questions I ask is if they make provide an financial accounting to their members. CC is the only group that does not. Now, I’ve interviewed over a hundred Pastors by phone, email, or face to face. Not one of them became irritated or disrespectful towards. Some asked why it was important for me to know this and I share with them my experience with CC. In turn, they have shared me that this is probably why they do not have a recognized membership, but rather pan it off as being “spiritual” membership.

    Face it, we’ve been scammed and CC needs to repent.

  103. Q Really nice essay on this. Are you willing to permit us to use this without identifying where it came from for sake of your confidentiality. You did an awesome job!

  104. Re: Rob Crosby

    “you are not helping fellow Christians to heal or vent, but dividing those that come on this blog. N o ministry is perfect and there will be those that use it for their advantage. Look at the prosperity gospel for instance. God exposes what needs to be exposed and you are treading on dangerous ground. Go about your life, love God and take care of your family. God builds and weeds the church, HIS CHURCH, not us. All these blogs sounds like a bunch of jealous bitter people who have nothing better to do than to complain about others.”

    Obviously you read from a different bible than what God’s Word has proclaimed. What I hear you saying, Rob is that you are offended to hear any negative statements or criticism regarding the ungodly, unscriptural, abusive, and tyrannical behavior of a church called CC. Then you justify this by distracting saying that other denominations have problems as well. Your arrogance and ignorance has blinded you to a loyalty of CC that does not permit you to be more objective and empathic towards those who have taken the time out from their busy lives to warn others and to hopefully exact a change in the way CC is structured, maintain their secrecy, and ignore their flocks. And so you essentially share and enable the wrong doing that has and is being perpetrated.

    God never said that we are to be silent, but quite the opposite, That we are to stand for the oppress, speak up and expose evil, and the least of these in the body ought to be able to judge these things. So, chew on you milk toast and leave the meat to those of us that have been through the fire, tested by God’s Holy Spirit, continue to walk in the faith while we speak the truth to a perishing church body which is not even given the basic consideration of church discipline, accountability, and protection from those who would abuse, battered, cheat, lie, exhort, con, and do it all in the name of the Lord.

    Shame of you.

  105. Q said,

    “Did Paul say just give me 10% and I will do what God tells me? No, they knew what the money was for before they gave and Paul took faithful brothers from the churches that had given as witnesses to do what was right not only before God but in the eyes of men. Pretty transparent!”

    Bears repeating ….

  106. Over and over again, Grateful.

    Every church I have become acquainted with will provide at minumu a quarterly statement to its congregants, not regular “givers.”

  107. When I initially ended up on the streets, a church I had been attending (small church and a very poor one at that) took their offerings and put me up in a hotel for a week. Many churches have a benevolent fund and others also keep a food closet. Some churches, when a special need is brought to their attention is brought before the body to take a special collection or offering. All these churches provide church discipline as well.

    No one is excluded from the affairs of the church because they believe church means everyone from head to toe. Reminds me of James concerning faith and works. And then Jesus’ words, to the least of these, you have done it unto me.

  108. Alex @ 91 said,

    “Be gracious to the Chip Rohlke’s and seek to be open to criticism and open with information and finances etc to avoid the “appearance of evil” and be the Servant of All.”

    “… be open to criticism” made me think of this verse:

    Proverbs 29:1 “Whoever stubbornly refuses to accept criticism
    will suddenly be destroyed beyond recovery.”

  109. Yes, Linda @ 107

    “Every church I have become acquainted with will provide at minumu a quarterly statement to its congregants, not regular “givers.”

    True. I even get financial statements from 3 other churches in town just because I’m on their email list, even though I’m not a member … or even an attender. They have nothing to hide. They don’t seem to be worried about “trouble makers” … people who create drama just because they know how the money is being spent (according to CC, anyway.)

  110. Rob #67 just stopping in and read your post to me. I think it is arrogant of you to think by my stopping of giving money to a certain CC means I’m disobeying God. I don’t think “tithing” of 10% is correct anyway. It’s a great way to fleece the flock but that’s another subject. And you are pointing fingers at me. You don’t like me saying anything negative about a CC?, but heck the CC’s I went to said negative things about other groups so do you point your fingers at the CC’s doing that? I will never give a dollar to any organization without accountability of where its going. And I do believe God wants me to be a good steward of the money I earn and being a good steward demands accountablility. Cults don’t want to be accountable. I will not blindly follow men like pinochio did.

  111. Sue, nicely put. I have one thing to add.

    We work hard for the money that the Lord has given us to do. We ought to also expect the leaders in our churches to work just as hard rather to feel as though the flock is being fleeced and unprotected.

    Personally, I cannot think of one area in my life that there is not some degree of accountability. When there is none, I tend to become irresponsible: human nature? Now I realize that offerings are used to maintain the building and pay staff, but beyond that where is the bulk of the offerings going. As for people saying that the accountant would never get any work done due to having to show 2-3 people the books each day. This does not make sense, so why use this argument. A simple report like most churches who do not hide their financial income and expenditures will do.

    As for those that say just pray about it. We do, constantly, unceasingly. My answer for these that say this, is why are we praying, if not to be strengthen, protected, and to do the right thing unto the Lord in all things, then what is to be the outcome of prayer?

    Please don’t tell us that God will take care of it. Yes, without a doubt He will — by using us to break the silence of abuses done against us and the body of Christ—just as His Word has given us instruction to do. God is not a genie. He is certainly not passive and quite frankly, for anyone to remain in a passive state and just tell a person who has been abused by the leadership, to pray about it and God will take care of it, is sin in itself. My question to you, is now that you know, what are you going to do to stop this abuse?

    How pray tell, do you think He does this, if not by His own people. And if they do not listen, then what do you think He does? We are to herald the good news as well as the bad. We are to purge the church of such evil and corruption, not upon our own volition, but first by prayer, then in the power of the Holy Spirit and with the support of others to bare witnesses against those who take advantage of any who is in Christ or any seeking Him. What, you think God is going to wave His magic wand and CC is going to get a clue when the very structure of its leadership is unbiblical and without accountability to the body of Christ. You do live in the land of Oz., not meaning offense, but hopefully giving you a good nudge to wake up!

    My point is: prayer is not an end to itself, it is not passive, but rather enables us to move forward in bringing about whatever needs to be done. It is by prayer that we are given the confidence not to be intimidated any more and to do what is right and honoring in the Lord, and of the Lord. My goodness, do you really believe that a person that has been victimized by a church leader ought to remain silient so that the Pastor can continue to do what, abuse His (that’s right God) children even more. Because that is what you are proposing when you take this position and remain passive when learning about such things.

    We who have had the scales from our eyes removed as a result of various abuses and neglect by the CC leadership structure and its implementations, with a failure to provide the protection and accountability that would greatly benefit all, including enabling the injured to be healed, vindicated, and restored, have each gone before the Lord and His Word is plain in what we ought to do. We stand clear in our conscience in speaking the truth to anyone who may hear. My prayer for you is to hear the truth and to act upon it beyond taking the easy way out to just pray. There is a time to pray, just as there is a time to stand up for what is right and just in His sight. What are you going to do?

    Please remember the abuses committed is a result of sin. God uses this to clean up His church and to make sure its leaders are taking care of the flock while the flock also holds them to an account that this is what is being done. The leadership is never meant to be Lords over the body, any more that a husband is to be Lord over his wife. There is one Lord, one body, and one spirit. What more the church leaders are not to run a church as if it is a company with its customer supporting them in tithes and offerings. What is so difficult for people to understand this is beyond me, except to buy into the hype then refuse to realize that they have been duped into blind loyalty that does permit them to acknowledge or eve be objective in implementing God’s Word.

    What is given as an offering to the church is to be used for the church as the body determines. Not what some bylaws that exempt the givers of such gifts from knowing and determining how these will be used. Anything less than this is a con job and we need to stand up and say, NO. NO. NO. IN THE NAME OF JESUS, NO MORE!!!!!

  112. #112 Correction: that they have been duped into blind loyalty that does permit them to acknowledge or eve be objective in implementing God’s Word.

    Should read: that does “not” permit them to acknowledge or “even” be

  113. Rob stated:

    “God exposes what needs to be exposed and you are treading on dangerous ground. Go about your life, love God and take care of your family. God builds and weeds the church, HIS CHURCH, not us. All these blogs sounds like a bunch of jealous bitter people who have nothing better to do than to complain about others.”

    How in God’s name do you think He does this. By His own people, Rob. That’s how!!

    Also, who is the CHURCH, Rob? You say it is not us. Really? Case closed, you really do need to buy a different Bible, because mine say all who repent and believe in Christ Jesus is born again, are children of the living God and are called His church.

  114. Rob, I read the quoted portion again. My mistake in what you were saying. I thought you were saying that the church something other than those whom I stated. Now, I’m understanding that you mean God weeds His church and basically we, the church should leave it to Him to weed.

    My statement still stands though on how He does this. He uses the enemies of Christ and the body of Christ to do this, that is how. Rob, think about Paul and how he kept pushing, prodding, and at times quite directly told the church to get their act together. He to us that we are exhort, admonish, instruct , and to apply church discipline. He has even told us to not eat with a brother practices sexual immorality, and other types of behavior. Rob, this is not a passive position that we are to take as you suggest. It is an active and outspoken position that we are to be a vital living outspoken voice in the church. You accusation that we are bitter and jealous. My question to you is bitter and jealous of what, Rob? For I would not want to be guilty of any of the wrong committed against these who have now refused to be silenced. Nor could I possibly be named among those who misdirect their remarks against those who have been victimized, rather to redirect them to those whom have committed these wrongs.

    There is a verse in Proverbs that tells us that it is wrong to do this, Rob. That is to enable these wrongs by upholding those who perpetrate such things – for they then share in the sin of this wrongdoing. Read more of your Bible rather than listen to the smooth words of those who need to be held to an account due to what have been shared over and over on this sight. Search the scriptures to see, if these things be true, then get back to us.

  115. Linda, Yes to #104

  116. I was under the impression that a church, in order to comply with secular government rules, registers with the state florida as a florida corporation not for profit and upon registering, become subject to the florida statutes of any corporation. That being said, the members of that corporation, ie the congregation membership are then entitled by the rule of law to be apprised of the income and expenses of the corporation. More so the larger the membership.. The members have a right to this information and the right to know that their contributions in the form of tithes and designated contributions are going to the proper areas. It is the essential that we all are accountable to one another and to God.

  117. Kate, what you say is true and precisely why Calvary Chapels don’t have memberships. If I am not an official “member” then I cannot hold the organization accountable for how it handles its finances. I don’t even have a right to see the books$

  118. You know Im not to sure about that. Well perhaps we should make some calls to the BBB. If you are giving money to a charity and it is not being used as you intended that could be fraud. JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT?

  119. Thats what really concerns me about the elderly. They are prime targets for financial abuse.

  120. I think all churches should be audited. PERIOD. IT WILL KEEP THEM HONEST.

  121. And taxed. You and I pay taxes and so should they.

  122. I think the “non-member” policy of Calvary Chapels has worked because they leave the use of funds up to the discretion of the pastor, ONLY; therefore I imagine it would be tricky to prove the money was not used as intended. But this is so wrong and so easy for a pastor to fail, that I really hope you are right, Tina, and that the courts will hold them accountable.

  123. The really disturbing thought is when they stand before God, what will HE say?

    When a church collects money from the widow, the single mom, the elderly on fixed incomes, the father who is struggling to keep his job and they are using it for personal gain, this grieves me. People give because they love God with their whole heart and they want to see Gods kingdom advance. I personally dont want to give my money to support gym memberships, housekeepers, new cars for staff and senior pastors, retirement, new clothes for my pastor, and fat paychecks. I want my money to pay the gas bill for the widow, buy groceries for the single mom, blessing the father and the elderly with a little extra to live on.

    Maybe some people disagree with my oppinion, but give the people a chance to decide by disclosing where the money goes. Why not be on the up and up? I think the giving unit has a right to know.

  124. You need to ask youself some really hard questions. What is church to me? It is my opinion that it has become a social club. It was mine for almost 20 years. My life revolved around CCV and to take a stand costs me isolation from the people I loved the most. Lies were spread about me and I was shund. However my eyes were opened and I praise God for that. So in your giving look around and decide to ask questions about where is the money going really? If your ok with club dues then by all means give, but if you find under further investgation that perhaps it is not being used as you would like it to,then give somewhere else. Dont buy the line that you need to give to your local church first if you dont even know where it goes or you do know where it goes and you disagree. God has given you that resource to use wisely.

  125. I agree, Tina!

  126. Tina,
    So good what you said, my husband and I have always been real tithers but no more. I would rather go on a much needed vacation to rest than see my hard earned money go for things I think are not biblical. We now take ownership of our tithe and that means a pastor will not unless he is accountable.

  127. You people are full of it. You don’t know what your saying. I’ve seen the finicial paperwork. You should stop the lies. Repent and pray for forgiveness. Your right GOD is watching and coming back soon.

  128. Why not make the finances accessible? As a CC Senior Pastor said at the CCSPC 2012: “If you’ve got nothing to hide…you’ve got nothing to hide”

    Financial Transparency is pretty much a no brainer. Good for accountability, good for staying above “an appearance of evil” etc etc in the context of a Church Org.

  129. To add. Let him without sin, cast the first stone.

  130. jj

    What is in you that causes you to want to skirt the issues instead of listening to what has been presented on this blog? If you don’t agree, then why not be specific is sharing with us why it is that you don’t. And if we counter that with additional information, then why not thoughtfully consider that instead using scripture that shuts down any reasonable discussion with you.

    Alex is attempting to tell you something and your defensivenss is not permitting you hear information that may contradict what you have come to believe, but in fact may be just want you need to know in order to be better informed and make better decisions concerning CC and to discern what is and what is not of the Lord.

  131. Uriah,

    You have so much patience with these people, I do not feel the slightest interest in talking with a stronghold, and I sure appreciate your steadfastness. May God hold it to your rich account, and Alex too. Blessings and His arm of protection.

  132. Thanks for your perspective. I’m an auditor who attends CCM. I firmly believe in transparency and am grateful for the posts. Nothing to hide…Nothing to hide.
    “The burning bush”

  133. I have just read Chip Rohlke’s scathing complaint about Calvary Chapel Melbourne and specifically about Mark Balmer. I have been attending CCM for over three years, I have been a born again christian for over 5 decades. I have attended and participated in 9 different bodies of christians in the past 35 years. In all cases God and the Spirit has moved me into positions of leadership and I have been on the finance committees of 7 bodies during this time period. Chip uses the quote of Ephesians 5:11 to state his supposed abuses that he suffered as a christian. After reading his statement this is how God has instructed me to respond.
    I. Philippians 2:14(NIV) Do everything without complaining or arguing.
    2 Pray for your leaders Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority
    3. Examine the fruit of their labor. Matt 7:16
    4. Examine the lives of the elders. (see above)
    I have done all of the above at Calvary Chapel Melbourne and prayed continually for the leaders as I have been instructed to do by our Lord. This is what I know. God has used this body in a mighty way to draw thousands of souls to a saving knowledge of Jesus. The ministries are continually formed and dissolved according to God’s direction. Prayer is the keystone of all decision making at CCM.
    CCM is attended (at all levels) by sinners who have their issues in their baggage when they come and God starts unpacking that baggage as they attend.
    Satan does 99% of his work in the church since he already controls the secular, cult, and occult world. Our sin nature will always be at war with our spirit nature if we are saved and in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit. We are to continually check check our own attitude, behavior, and confess accordingly where we fail according to the Word of God (if we are in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit) who will convict us of our sin. If we do not examine ourselves daily and even hourly, or continually for our own motives as to why we are displaying attitudes or behavior that is defined by the Word as sin (disobedience to the commands) based on our knowledge of the Word, then we can and will be used (by our sin nature, and/or satan) to attempt to lie, kill, or destroy whatever relationship or relationships that we are involved in that are, in anyway glorifying God. I have seen this so many times in my experiences over the past 35 years I could not begin to count. What I do know is that whatever becomes more glorifying to God is more threatening to the enemy. This is certainly the motive in this case. Finances are the #1 problem in relationships throughout the world. Thus the reason our Lord has talked so much about it. Let God be our judge, and His Spirit be our guide and
    I guarantee that it will all work out in the end. I know that I have witnessed more internal strife over the finances within the bodies I have participated than any other cause. I do not want to know the details of the finances of a church any longer, (having done so for years).
    If there is any issue with execution of authority within a body I have come to believe God will make it very apparent to everyone in His time. For a single individual to create a major issue out of failure to understand something because the leadership has chosen a policy of protection rather than the constant scrutiny of uninformed and unqualified eyes that have no understanding of the processes that any decision my have gone through, opens the door to continual criticisms, and condemnation by unauthorized and uniformed individuals that become pawns in the enemies hands.
    My final comment on CCM is this:
    Is the Word of God taught -yes.
    Is there an extensive accountability network in place for the protection of the staff – yes
    Is Jesus the centerpiece of all activities and purposes – yes
    Is God blessing the work of CCM through the evidence of changed lives -yes
    Does the unfortunate truth abound that ” more people, mean more problems about” -yes
    Can God (Christ) be trusted to directed the efforts of His body according to His will – yes
    Is Christ continually changing and growing the body of CCM – yes
    Is CCM the place where God wants all individuals to worship and serve -no
    Should those who God is calling elsewhere leave – yes.
    Should those who are bitter for their own selfish reasons examine themselves to find the peace that surpasses understanding and learn to submit to God, rather that create a divisive mindset because they did not get their way about something – yes.
    I pray Chip that you find the transparency and organization that allows you to grow in your knowledge and obedience to our Lord.

  134. What does God’ tell us to do in His word…including who started this letter…don”t you see the enemy working through all of you…I’m not judging you, I just want you to see through the eyes of Jesus who suffered it all…what did He do…”Forgive them Father for they know not what they do”…we are all sinners and make mistakes…please do not let a hurt or mistake ruin God”s work

  135. I attended Calvary Chapel Melbourne for 10 years, and finally left. There is no transparency and the church operates in a very “authoritarian” manner. I left 2 years ago, and will never return. When we attended there, people always asked if it was a “cult”. I never understood why people would say that. But, as time went on, I started to question some things, and started to see that it was very cult-like. It’s funny, the Methodist or Baptist church down the street doesn’t have that reputation. The subtle guilt they put upon you is appalling.

    I was a bible study teacher at the church, and the more our class would go through the bible, the more I realized they were “off” on many things. They are a Market Driven Church. I’m sorry, but none of the Pastors on staff over there ever attended Seminary, they have no business teaching God’s Word. When you start to attend a church where the Pastor has been trained in handling the texts, you’ll never enter a Calvary Chapel again.

    CCM is nothing more than a glorified mall and community center. In my opinion they should
    lose their tax exempt status. You should see it! Cafe, bookstore, charging for every event under the sun, and you can now buy DVD’s and CD’s of the sermons. Of course they don’t want you to see the finances! Oh, I also found the builder that constructed all the properties…35 million in building projects in the last several years, that does not include the land. We don’t even know how much debt remains. But, we heard many teachings on giving…gee I wonder why?

    I admit, I was a bit bitter for a time. After leaving, I actually felt as if I had been deprogrammed. I meet with some friends for lunch now and then, they can’t help but talk in their “talking points” and wear their bracelets. Yes, they have a new bracelet they pass out and encourage you to wear each year. Chip was not wrong. He was right to question. We all have the right to question. Oh, and if I heard one more time, from the pulpit, to “obey your leaders” I was going to scream!

  136. I will also say…we are to be like The Bereans. They were noble. The Apostle Paul and the rest of the Apostles didn’t get a free pass on what they taught, and they saw Jesus face to face! These men don’t get a free pass either. We are to question. Yes, we submit, but the Pastor is also accountable to the flock. We are all sinners, and we all need accountability.

  137. I think it is very unfair that I get judged by Scott Keller, and Steve Slesinger just because I said that easter has nothing to do with the Resurrection of Jesus. Then I find that Pastor Mark takes me off his friendship list because I sent him a message letting him know that these people had judged me. His talk on Christian love is just that talk! No action. He doesnt even care to speak with us about this problem that they have started and attack me over the truth of the name easter and the Resurrection of Jesus. I ask to do the research before they judge, as we know what the scriptures say-Judge not. less you be judged. and the judgement you give is what you will get back!

  138. My family and I attended CCM in the late 90s early 2000s. I was contemplating a career change and went to see Paster Marc with my wife. I had spent quite a lot of time with him, at CCM and even socially. In the meeting, I told him that I was very close to a dear friend who had been helping me work through the issues of my career change. His question, “Is this person a Christian”. My reply, no, he is a Buddhist, and he is very thoughtful and compassionate. Pastor Marc basically said my friend was of the devil and I should stop talking to him altogether. Now this friend was the kindest, most sincere person I’d ever known, and was very humble. On the contrary, I’d never experienced a more arrogant attitude from a person in my life from pastor Marc.
    This meeting was the catalyst for me to re-examine my entire belief system. After countless hours of study, now I am not a Christian and I’m very happy. Please don’t reply with apologetics, I am good. I don’t need convincing of anything. I had my spiritual journey and am very happy.

    But I will encourage all of you, as Christians, believe what you believe, but don’t be judgmental. Arrogance (I am right and you/he is wrong) is not a positive spiritual attribute. I was shocked at that encounter, but it all worked out for the good, helped get me where I needed to be. I understand the need for Christians to follow the bible, but Jesus was not a judgmental arrogant jerk.. He was humble and compassionate.

  139. Pastor Mark preaches the Ministry of Death, the Law with works.

  140. Worked there for a short time and what a bunch of hypocrites and uppity pastors….happy I left.

  141. .First of all we should not appoint ourselves as critics of the church. We are to judge each other in the love and exhortation of Christ, not because we are busy bodies and want a hand in what is going on. The people constantly complained against Moses during the exodus from Egypt and God disciplined them for it. Moses was God’s leader and messenger and he was accountable to God and those God put around him but not the people. Whenever the people complained about Moses leadership and what they were doing, they found themselves wandering the wilderness even longer. If God wants any of us involved in areas of the church he will put us there, but we should not ask questions just cause we think we are entitled to know. It would be the same if the church wanted to see your personal finances as a member of the church. do you feel your obligated to hand over your checking account information the them. No your not.

    My final comment on CCM is this:
    Is the Word of God taught -yes.
    Is there an extensive accountability network in place for the protection of the staff – yes
    Is Jesus the centerpiece of all activities and purposes – yes
    Is God blessing the work of CCM through the evidence of changed lives -yes
    Does the unfortunate truth abound that ” more people, mean more problems about” -yes
    Can God (Christ) be trusted to directed the efforts of His body according to His will – yes
    Is Christ continually changing and growing the body of CCM – yes
    Is CCM the place where God wants all individuals to worship and serve -no
    Should those who God is calling elsewhere leave – yes.
    Should those who are bitter for their own selfish reasons examine themselves to find the peace that surpasses understanding and learn to submit to God, rather that create a divisive mindset because they did not get their way about something – yes.
    I pray Chip that you find the transparency and organization that allows you to grow in your knowledge and obedience to our Lord

  142. I am in fellowship at CCM and I am so sad that the Faith in GOD has been muddied by Satan. He is the true winner in this account.

    The Mall that one poster refered to the CCM church being is in fact The Mall of GOD’s WORK. I didnt recall if you included that this is a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL as well?
    For which Im so sorry to say that you have no business.
    To me it seems that the one who started this mess, is throwing a childish angery temper tanterm. Very out of order with GOD and his guiding light.
    So so ugly, and the FRUIT you bare is right HERE,!
    Personally, I am praying for your restoration thru Jesus, but I am also releived that you have gone elsewhere!
    The CCM church is thriving and Im sure that it is not due to you in any way shape or form. We must give the credit where it is due! 1st to our Lord GOD Jesus Christ, 2nd to its LEADERSHIP and PASTORAL Guidance, and the Body! Please Get over it, and get on with the WORK of THE LORD! And… because you did the correct thing by exiting the church. Please shut up because at this point you are allowing SATAN to be YOUR GUIDE!

  143. Chip Rohlke; I see there is some complaint about “THE SPAMERS”
    HUMM? If this is A Results you didnt want? Why did you label the post as you did?
    HUM? It is Clear your intent was to stir as much trouble for the CHURCH and Pastor by putting their names to it.
    So You call yourself A MAN OF GOD? I would have to Question that just from the Fruits I see here.
    You are doing the work of evil, slandering Gods servants!
    You have provided proof of NOTHING, and please provide us ALL your books to prove your donations, contrabutions, tiths etc… then we all can realize your merit.

  144. Heisenberg: Pastor was totally correct in his attempt to guide you away from the friend! Look at the outcome of your choice.
    You have walked away from the Lord in the Name of Satan. Satan is the deceiver and he is very good at it!
    He led you astray, I will keep you and you family in prayer!

  145. CHIP ROHLKE;
    PS
    DO YOU HAVE THE AUTHORIZED PERMISSION OF MARK BALMER TO POST HIS PHOTOGRAPH TO THIS SIGHT?
    I would remove it ASAP, as it could be a lawsuit in the making

  146. The best thing we can all do is to simply remove ourselves from these fellowships and join churches that operate in a Christian manner. Why do people continue to attend these cult-like groups? I’m beginning to think they suffer from codependency or identity issues. Gullible people are going to continue to experience wrongful behavior by the leaders. The situation is badly out of control.

  147. Calvary Chapel suffers from an uneducated clergy who use the church for their own advancement. It has become an inescapable realization.

  148. ROMANS 9:14-32

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

    19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

    22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25 As He says also in Hosea:

    “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
    And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[h]
    26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not My people,’
    There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[i]

    27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[j]

    “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
    The remnant will be saved.
    28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
    Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”[k]

    29 And as Isaiah said before:

    “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth[l] had left us a seed,
    We would have become like Sodom,
    And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”[m]
    Present Condition of Israel

    30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

    “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
    And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p

    Praise the Lord!!!!!

  149. This is where the rubber meets the road: God, our maker, came to the earth as a man and died a suffering death, leaving us something far more valuable than paper and coin:
    ACTS 3:1-6
    1Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; 3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. 4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, “Look at us.” 5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.”

    I fear that some how the devil has deceived us in to believing that it is our money that has the power to change lives, sorry boys and girls, but God does not need our money. He created the universe and everything in it all by Himself without a penny to His name. God wants our worship. Giving is part of our reasonable worship motivated by the sacrifice of His blood on the Cross. Yes, I said blood not money. Jesus didn’t write God a check to set us free He suffered and died a criminals death, let us not forget that when we start wandering where “OUR” money is going. I am not giving my money to a pastor or a church or even a homeless man, I’m giving it to the One who loved me and gave Himself for me and I am confident that God is doing with it as He pleases whether I think it is good or bad. This would be a good time for all to reflect on 1 Timothy 6:6-10 and when I say reflect I mean like looking in a mirror not pointing fingers.

    Peace Always!!!!!!

  150. What is “simony”? Where does it come from? Could it be related to bitterness and unforgiveness?

    2 PETER 1:5-11…
    5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

    10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Peace Always!!!!!

  151. I happen to have been blessed by the ministry of CCM. I just had to say that. I could care less what they do with the financial end. I quite frankly, appreciate that fact that it’s one of the few churches I’ve attended where they don’t constantly harp on the subject of money. Some churches, it’s ALL they talk about. GIVE ME MONEY for this, or GIVE ME MONEY for that. It’s God’s money and all I’m responsible for with the money he’s provided to me me, is to be accountable to God, not Man.

  152. Attended CC Merritt Island for 15 yrs.I always wondered about the finances there. The elder in charge of finances took 1.2 million dollars over a 5 year period.He was arrested but no one heard of what happened after that.I know that the pastor and his family made many,many trips to England over the years.The church paid for his sons family to live in Nashville for a year why he tried to be a music producer. Pastors son and daughter both on the payroll for years.

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