Oct 212012
 

Here is Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia / Visalia Police Department Chaplain’s and my Mom, Gayle Grenier’s Lawsuit against me:

Calvary Chapel Pastor Grenier Lawsuit.pdf

 Posted by at 1:43 pm

  212 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Pastor & Visalia Police Chaplain Bob Grenier and Gayle Grenier lawsuit against the step-son Bob abused while the Mother stood by and let it happen”

  1. Bizarre stuff, Alex! Makes me wonder even more why Paul not named, as his testimony on this site some of the most damning of all.

    Wonder if you could call CS as a hostile witness who seemed to agree with you that BGs behavior was abuse, not just ‘strict parenting’.

    May you find the best attorney perfectly able to defend and counter sue this malarky. Would that it is not too late for some fashion of healing & reconciliation. I might begin to believe in miracles again…….

  2. PS: That they are asking not just for a cease and desist, but also monetary and punitive damages speaks volumes IMO.

  3. Alex – - – I’m still laughing about those two images in the exhibit part of the lawsuit. I’ll wait until I get some creative juices flowing and might have to make a blog post out of that.

    This screams FRIVOLOUS LAWSUIT to me.

  4. what an ugly thing.

    and Alex shame on you for being resentful about being beaten. :roll:

    you have my prayers.

  5. Julie Anne, yes, God forbid I have a sense of humor with the pictures…Bob couldn’t beat the snarkiness and sense of humor out of me I guess…though I never showed it in the home b/c I would get quite a beating if I did.

    Many of you have given me GREAT attorney referrals and I’ve sent e-packets to quite a few today.

    I have also heard back from my friend Kelly Clark (the Big Child Abuse Lawyer in Portland). He said he is very much in my corner and is going to try and help me assemble a legal team. That has been a REAL shot in the arm today.

  6. One out of the 1-50, good observations.

    Why am I being named for defamation/libel? Why not Paul? Paul made the public statements (and private statements) and I believe him.

    I hope this will cause someone in the church or law enforcement community to eventually launch an official investigation, though I’ve already reported the molestation to both entities, but have been Stone Walled since.

  7. Alex-

    I have read through it all and I made some notes. Just some questions and observations:

    1. It appears that they believe all was fine in your relationship until you “demanded” your dad to repent. Was this because you were now saved ( a believer) and you now were realizing the Biblical model for what you percieved as necessary for your past relationship? And that before this time, you did not realize these things?

    2. “Bob constantly raised and cared for Alex”
    What does this mean? What does “constantly” mean? Do parents not “constantly raise their kids? very odd wording.

    3. Bob was “Damaged in body and mind” and so seeks punitive damage.

    First of all, how can a believer, let alone a Pastor be “damaged in mind and Spirit” when he has the Holy Spirit residing in him and he has the “Mind of Christ”? Can we thus assume he is not a believer?
    And was he physically damaged in any way?
    And how can money compensate for this damage anyway?
    I suppose he is going to use one of the verses from Exodus, that if one is physically damaged, they can receive money. I am not sure the NT gives any instruction

    4. Mention of defamation and emotional distress.
    Is this evident in his sermons or blog postings?
    Any mention of his physical suffering?
    Has he been absent from the pulpit at all due to the emotional stress and the damage of mind and body?
    Cancellation of any events, vacations, etc?
    Counseling sessions with another Pastor, etc?
    Surely, he would mention this to his congregation or at least ask for prayer.

    5.Do you think he will use an arbitrator or mediator to settle this with you without going to court?
    Does the Bible say anything about this?
    What comes to mind is the verse “Live peacebly with all men”.
    Surely, you can both get what you want and since you are both believers can come to some sort of peaceful agreement?

    Surely, the Lord would rather have resolution without the court, and all of God’s money wasted on attorney’s fees that can go to feeding the poor and taking care of the widows. Maybe you can make sure that any punitive damage can go to those less fortunate financially.
    This seems more like the Biblical model than punitive damages.
    What would getting money from you change?
    Would it heal his mind, body and spirit if he was able to get some cash out of this?

    Interesting, that I expected some mention of closing down the blog, but found nothing.

    Finally, any intelligent person who is unbiased would read this document and ask why Alex, you would go to this length to fabricate some kind of vendetta against a man who you supposedly lived in peace with. So my question is :
    What is Alex’s motive?
    Why would you risk cutting off all ties with your mother for some strange, bizarre twisted lie?
    That would really paint you as a lunatic.
    It just doesnt make sense.

    Remember, Denzel Washington in “Philadelphia” said “Explain this to me like I’m an 8 year old” (I think it was 8)….It just doesnt compute.
    I know that the attorneys are making in excessof $350 an hour (the fees are listed), but in their heart of hearts, does it compute to them??

  8. No Hannah it doesn’t compute. Cult leaders are like this. It’s pure ego, “I’ll get you back and make you pay.” If repentance and reconciliation doesn’t mean anything to him then why would not suing a brother in court mean anything. It doesn’t.

    I listened to his live webcast this morning and it’s business as usual. This mornings sermon could have been taken word for word from 10 years ago. Same jokes and sloppy delivery.

    He uses Jesus to make money and retain a following. his son is getting in the way of that.

  9. What came to my attention is how the court document mentioned your mother being afraid of you, but only referenced BG in describing the type of harm “he” had suffered. Then I thought about the description he used, and thought this is exactly the same type of harm that you shared he had perpetrated upon your family.

    What more, CC’s name is noticeably left out with the exception of narrowing it down to a single church. I’m thinking——behind this lies the those in waiting to see what else they might do in keeping its victims silent. So, essentially this is a stand off between the 3 parties: BG vs. Alex and Tim. But we all know there’s more to this and it’s going take God, that team of attorneys, and others to bring truth and justice to all those who are concerned.

    I was listening to something last night and thought about this case. It goes something like this: although this case has your name on it Alex, that is just a way for man’s court to identify it, but in reality this case has God’s name on it, and He will prevail to use it for His good purpose in helping His people, the body of Christ to stop that which is not of Him. Abuse and Corruption is not of the Lord and He will use this case to get the attention of all who chose to ignore and enabled it to go on without the accountability that He told us to have within the congregation, in His perfect timing.

    Sometimes, God ways are not swift, at least according to when we think or would like them to be, but they are sure. So may He countenance shine upon you and Tim, and your families and those who will or do have a portion in this. May He grant you His strength, wisdom, and provisions. May you, after doing all that you can, lay your head down each night and rest in His peace. And may all that read your site, open their heart and their resources to come alongside of you, checking their own hearts and be convicted of the truth that needs to be known in order to make the changes that are long over due in the church and in the family. May we all know that yours is not the only case of abuse that has occurred and may those who have committed such things repent and make the amends necessary to truely love others as God has loved them.

  10. Chrome Dome,

    If Bob was damaged so severely, surely his congregation would know about it, and it would be evident in his teachings…
    People who are that damaged cannot go on with “business as usual” or else they are really not that damaged.
    I would think that demanding to close down the blog would help ease this suffering since all the references to his suffering are based on blog posts. Unless I overlooked it, I dont even see that mentioned.

    1 Corinthians 6:1–8

    Lawsuits Against Believers

    6 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous rinstead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that sthe saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, twhy do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 uI say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. vWhy not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even wyour own brothers!1

  11. In other words, he’s attempting to make it look like a family matter, Alex. But we know that it is not—and the court needs to know this as well. It goes beyond just your family, it concerns the entire body of Christ within CC. Not to say that it ought not also have to do with other congregations and churches, as well. For it should.

    You were raised in the church, Alex and it is to the church that you turned to when attempting to bring this out in the opened according to Matthew 18 and so many of Scriptures instructing how to do so. You did not fail God, but the church and its leadership failed you and your family, including BG, for if had been addressed properly this would not have come to being brought into man’s court which is clearly against Scripture. Just my humble opinion. A sister and a woman in the Lord.

  12. My last post…

    I am praying that there can be resolution in this family.
    …only God can perform this miracle and do this in His own supernatural way.

    Anyone willing to fast and pray for this situation?
    I asked before and had no takers.
    You can have protein shakes…God will honor this…and maybe lose a few pounds..
    I am willing…we know guys that we are dealing with spiritual warfare and need to treat it as such.
    How about it?

  13. I did not count the times that the document mentioned he apologized to you, but you refused to reconcile with him. I’m sorry, but the degree of harm done is not quite commensurate with just telling a person that you are sorry. Not when it comes the type of issues that are on the table concerning abuse of little boys and their mother. It’s as if he was blaming you and making you responsible for initiating and bearing the fruits of reconcilation instead.

  14. Linda,

    It is twisted.
    Alex wanted repentence and resolution…
    but that involved admission which would cost BG his congregation and his livelihood and expose darkness…and ruined reputation.
    ..now the table is turned and BG is the injured one, when it was Alex who was the injured party. It is almost like a catch 22.

  15. Linda,

    You are right. It involves the entire body.
    Thats why it is difficult-next to impossible for someone in this postion to confess or repent.
    There is too much to lose.

    It is the same dynamic that has been in many of our situations at our CC’s.
    Shoot the messenger.

  16. Reminds me of the husband that cheated on his wife and she confronted him. He said, “I’m sorry.” She said ask him if he knew what he was apologizing for and he said, “I’ said I was sorry, how long are we going keep talking about this?” Raising his voice, “Can’t we just move on?” “Get over it!? “I said, I was sorry and the Bible says you have to forgive me.”

    There is no forgiveness without true repentance. Repentance = fruits. Not on the offender’s terms, but on the terms of the one they have harmed, with a humble and contrite heart. Not with an attitude of self rightteousness and arrogance with an effort to control and to silence. That is not godly sorrow, that’s fleshly sorrow—oh, I got caught and now I have to do damage control.

  17. So glad that things are coming together so rapidly for you, Alex. Awesome that Kelly Clark is involved — maybe he can recruit that Jeff Sheckstein guy for you.

    Hannah @#7, good points on the suit, but shhh, don’t give Bob any ideas or he might start wearing a neck brace like the ambulance chasers recommend after being in a car crash. In this case though, maybe it’s appropriate — he is one of the most stiff-necked people I know.

    Alex, I appreciate that you are being transparent with your need for help and for sharing so much of your heart. Thank you for continuing to blog amidst everything. Can’t wait for the press conference — next week, is it? :-)

    Last thing, got a chuckle from this comment on another site: “In this guy’s [Bob's] version of the bible, the prodigal son’s dad would have sued the son for emotional distress and for monetary reimbursement.”

  18. Only God knows if the repentence is true repentence. Even repentence unto salvation.
    Repentence bears fruit as evidence.

    The point I was making is that a man who does not have as much to lose (not a Pastor who would lose his entire congregation if he admitted to abuse) would have an easier life after repenting. It woudl between himself and his accuser. So obviously since this does involve the body of Christ and reputation, it will never happen. We need to be willing to lose everything by being obedient.

    We all have things we have not repented for.
    If someone approached me and told me that I hurt them and I needed to repent, there is just no way out of this because the bible is clear that if we have offended anyone, we need to make things right with them before we go to the altar.

    It is clear that Alex believed this, and perhaps the Lord urged him on.. and he was not given resolution of this conflict. He was actually helping his dad be right with God, and perhaps urged by the Spirit to bring the darkness to light, and did not see the big picture of what this involved..
    Now the table is turned on him.

  19. Sheck– Maybe Alex can delete my post then…

  20. Hannah @ 14

    That is what is what is referred to as being narcissistic. The abuser becomes the victim and the table is turned. Voila–like magic.

  21. They can’t see beyond their own injury to see how they brought it about. So they project upon their victim, making them responsible for the harm that they inittially did. It’s like the man who abuses his wife and refuses to go into marital counseling with him. Then he tells everyone that he tried to reconciliate with her but she wouldn’t go into marital counseling with him. So he continue to abuse, abandoned, and rejects her. And he blames her for it while telling others that if she would just go into marital counseling with him, everything would be better. The truth, he is attempting to distract from owning his need to abuse and to control her while getting credit for wanting to go into marital counseling with her. And he makes her look like she is being the one that is unreasonable and uncooperative. In the mean time, she is the one being persecuted, isolated, and silenced. Further harm and trauma is experienced by her and he tells her if you would just go into marital counseling with me. Truth: it is his issue, not hers and he needs to repent and bear the fruit of that repentance. The catch 22 is in the form of a lack of church discipline and support of the victim while holding the abuser to an strict account to enable the abuser to do what is necessary to earn her respect and trust.

    Not a simple, “I’m sorry.” Now let him back in the door. And that is what Alex has tried to do for years, unfortunatley without much help believing that somehow and some way, someone in the CC leadership would step up to the plate and do what he knows as well as all of us is what God’s Word says to do. That I would imagine is a double betrayal at its very best.

  22. Hannah stated:

    “It is clear that Alex believed this, and perhaps the Lord urged him on.. and he was not given resolution of this conflict. He was actually helping his dad be right with God, and perhaps urged by the Spirit to bring the darkness to light, and did not see the big picture of what this involved..
    Now the table is turned on him.

    Hannah, that is only the Spirit of the Liviing God in you that could have drawn that to our attention. Thank you.

  23. Linda,

    My father was not a believer and as an adult I used to send him letters about how he had hurt me. I didnt understand what I was dealing with. the enemy would not let him receieve. It fell on deaf ears, and he would not be able to ask for my forgiveness until the Spirit of God moved in him to do so very soon before he died.
    He died saved. The day he received the Lord in that hospital ER room with me, was the first time I saw him cry. He was finally touched from above. He could no longer deny the truth or the Lord. He was a broken man.
    We are dealing not with flesh and blood.

  24. Sheck-

    Can you explain what the difference is between monetary damages and punitive damages (both checked off as remedies) and if the later is warranted in this case?

  25. Bob says he apologized for being a “poor parent”

    That’s like a Rapist apologizing for being a bad date.

    He doesn’t get it…actually it’s probably not that he doesn’t get it, he doesn’t want to cop to his sin/crime and hide behind nebulous statements like I am sorry you perceive we were poor parents garbage.

  26. Calvary has someone else they are taking to court….. God and His justice. Than there is the collateral damage of the hearts of Calvary sheep who may become very hurt to find out that this is how cut throat their church is. Sad days for them but probably necessary.

    The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do NOTHING! Albert Einstein

    For evil to flourish all that’s needed is for good people to do NOTHING! Edmund Burke

    Yes there are more but did not note them….but wait how about this

    Ezekiel 3:19-21, Speaking to Watchman of which all of us should be but some are specifically anointed for this.

    But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul. 20. Again, if a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand. 21. But if you warn the righteous person not to sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning, and you will have delivered your soul.

    Kinda makes me wonder if this was one of the dynamics in Gods justice, when He said in Matthew 7:22
    Many will say in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23. And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

    Again what does light have to do with darkness, come out of her and be yea separate!

    My husband and I stand with you and your wife in prayer, fasting, love, concern, and more.
    If Calvary thinks being a bully scares off everyone they are wrong.

  27. Olivia, thank you.

    Clearly Calvary Chapel wants to silence us.

    Chuck Smith called the blog “all lies!” and his attorney Janet Carter referred to it as a “refuse collector” and they told me I was “in sin” for exposing the stuff and they lobbied me to shut it down and move on, etc.

    Bob Grenier would like to silence me and you and others as well by use of this ridiculous lawsuit. Fortunately there are good attorneys who don’t let these guys get away with this stuff. We have the right to speak out and expose this stuff and ask that something be done and we have the right to warn the public no matter how much Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel doth protest.

  28. If you believed a Pastor/Chaplain with access to kids and trust from parents had molested your little brother, what would you do? Stay silent? Hope everything worked out OK? Let it go? Or better yet, “get a life!” as Chuck Smith says?

    This is ridiculous. I’m getting ticked off again.

  29. Alright, so from what I see we have the following
    Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress requires:

    1. Defendant acted intentionally or recklessly; and
    2. Defendant’s conduct was extreme and outrageous; and
    3. Defendant’s act is the cause of the distress; and
    4. Plaintiff suffers severe emotional distress as a result of defendant’s conduct

    I’d say that 2. is a problem. If someone was really a child molester, than it isn’t extreme or outrageous to do everything needed to see them come to justice, or at a minimum away from a position of power.

    I’d also say that unless we see Bob actually receiving counseling or needing to take a leave of absence from his church, there is nothing to 4. Severe is typically define as distress caused by more than insults. It could be based on the term, but honestly, if the testimony that Bob is a child molester, than one could reasonably argue that his severe emotional distress would be proper and valid as one who committed a crime.

    Defamation hinges on the fact that Alex posted what he did knowing that it was false. That’s the big one for Bob, as he would have to prove that Alex knew these statements were false. As to the money, an independent audit will show that Bob doesn’t pilfer money. However, as a church it should have been done on a regular basis.

  30. If I understand correctly

    Monetary Damages are paid to the plaintiff in to pay for the wrong that was committed.

    Punitive Damages are assigned by the court above and beyond a monetary damage in order to punish or reform the defendant.

    In a hypothetical countersuit, Alex could sue for the monetary damages for his legal fees, travel costs, etc and punitive damages because of the frivolousness of the lawsuit to reform Bob Grenier.

  31. That will be great if a way to help Alex pay for his out of pocket expenses is set up through paypal or whatever! Many are with you Alex and praying.

  32. Alex – You absolutely have a right to share your story publicly – all the dirty mess of it. Regarding the lawsuit – if Bob had apologized and repented, you’d be seeing your mom. Period. He hasn’t and I think she’s still drinking the Kool-Aid, sadly.

    You will get over the lawsuit just fine. The thing is poorly written and I am confident that you will win. However, I suspect the most difficult thing about this whole thing is not the lawsuit, but the last part of your title: while the Mother stood by and let it happen. That was difficult for me to read and is a very tough pill to swallow. I’ve swallowed that one before. I understand this kind of pain and my heart goes out to you, Alex.

  33. Alex, next time Chuck Smith tells you to get a life, tell him you got a life, due to no fault of your own, it was given to you by cruel people. And now he stands with those people to protect himself, his brand, his business and his wealth. Tell him now you must try and work out the life you have been given to a better end for righteousness. Pray for Janet, no doubt she believes that Chuck Smith is a sweet innocent man, well she is know partaking of something and aligning herself in a way that she knows not. And when they ask you if it is a hate campaign, you bet it is, hate injustice, hate hypocrisy, hate sexual. physical, emotional and verbal abuse, hate wolves in sheep’s clothing, hate men who devour God’s people, yes indeed it is a hate campaign and all that God hates, and thank you for asking!

  34. I just wanted to say that I had a very hard time sleeping.
    This situation has really hit home for me in many ways.

    My mother used to stand at the kitchen sink cleaning dishes while my father verbally abused me. She is old and may not have much time left here, and in these last years I have been able to come to peace with her because as a unbeliever I understand that at that time she was in fear of her own relationship with my father if she protected her kids. I had a very strained relationship with her my entire life because of anger I have had towards her, not being sympathetic to her own abuse that she could not deny. As a believer I have been challenged, and it is only recently that I can love her with God’s love and see her as He sees her. I am sorry for the hate I have had towards her. She could not be who I wanted her to be. Rather than pity her I expected her to live up to my expectations. it wasnt fair to her. This situation is showing me so much about myself.

    Alex- I hope you can forgive your mom and understand that she either is sympathetic towards her husband or you. She has had to choose. It isnt fair but it is the only way for her.

    What mother would not be abused herself when she allowed her own children to be abused? Her hell would be worse than yours. My mothers life would be worse than mine and I am sure it was. She was not very happy in her marriage or her relationship with her kids. it is sad. I am hoping with my mom, with the time left, that she can come to knwo the Lord and it will only be if I obey him in how I treat her and love her. It is only through Him that I can do this.

    I am heartbroken that in the house of God it is no different than the unsaved world.
    We are talking about 2 believers here. One that stands at the pulpit.
    I do agree some of the posts have been harsh, too much so, but what drived them was the hurt and pain. There would be no other reason for it.

    I hope everyone is seeing this as a spiritual battle. We can go through all the worldy ways of handling this, but I am praying that hearts would be touched supernaturally by the Lord HImself to heal this family. We need to all pray for Alex and his family that the Lord would intervene and do a miracle here.

  35. Response to post #34:
    ” I do agree some of the posts have been harsh, too much so, but what drived them was the hurt and pain. There would be no other reason for it.”

    I do not think they’ve been harsh at all. Calling his father a #@%$^% and his wife a fat @#$%@%, then going on and lying about him and stating on a public website that he is not part of the family.. now that is harsh. Alex has been relentless, but I’m grateful, because so many would’ve given up by now. But he continues to press on, for the greater good.

    Sorry Alex I’m using your blog as a soapbox, but the reason I keep coming back to this site is I’m vicariously living through you.

    There’s so many that have been hurt/swindled by the church, but no one cares. Sickly enough, it’s people like Alex, unfortunately, who understand the best of all. And he has the ammunition and the stage to uncover the fascade.

    I guess the closest example would be wanting to scream at your mother, because you knew abuse was going on, but she kept denying it? Didn’t you just want to be heard, just have someone agree with you, so you knew you weren’t insane?

    That’s what I imagine Alex feels towards Chuck Smith, but Alex has been more than respectful. He has stuck with facts, when someone with less grace would’ve resorted to name-calling.

    Social media is going to change the face (or should I say fascade) of church forever. Hopefully it’ll end up in edifying and building up the church. It’s a powerful tool. There’s strength in knowledge. And if enough people know the truth, there’s strength in numbers.

    For example: people can post a .pdf of Skip Hezig’s $300K severence pay he was given (for quitting, haha, the irony), you just need one Twitter response to say, “that’s not right.” Then others have the courage to say, #$%# yeah, it’s downright WRONG. Then when you get a thousand twitters buzzing (the same people who FUNDED the $300K), CC CANNOT ignore it.

    This is REVOLUTIONARY. This is what accountability in the church was ALWAYS suppose to be. But this isn’t about $$$, this is FAR MORE IMPORTANT. This is about spiritual accountability, FAR MORE IMPORTANT that financial accountability.

    It is absolutely important that Alex wins to set precedence. I haven’t prayed daily in years, but I’ve prayed every day for Alex (more for healing in his family) but also for the healing of the CC Movement.

  36. For what it’s worth Alex, Tina, Edna and many others know who I am and hopefully know that I did not write that awful comment by “anon” . How could I say such a thing about Alex’s mother and hope that fellow outcasts would feel safe around me, let alone how insulting that would be to Alex.

    I wish that I was as good a writer as Wide Awake but I am not and can not take credit for his eloquent words no matter how they try to frame it.

  37. Not Alone, I have no idea who “anon” is/was but I’m sure they can find out if they are that concerned. I’ve never threatened Bob, other than to expose the truth and not be silent about the abuses in our home etc.

    It’s very possible that “anon” changed their moniker to “Who” as that’s the only other commenter over on Topix I remember seeming to make overt and/or covert physical threats to parties involved in the controversy.

  38. In my defamation lawsuit, the pastor sued 2 people and attributed specific comments to them. Both defendants denied that those comments were theirs. There were no subpoenas from ISPs, so I don’t know how the pastor could conclude who posted the comments.

    Interestingly, those 2 individuals were dismissed from the case early on. Ya know, if you’re going to sue someone for something, ya better make sure you have your facts straight and not speculate. That little faux pas cost the pastor/church nearly $17,000. Ouch!!! They retained a separate attorney.

    Bob et al is going to have to provide proof as to who posted those comments. That really is a no-brainer and another example of why I say this lawsuit is poorly written. What was his attorney thinking?

  39. That’s true. The writing styles are similar.

  40. Julie Anne, it makes me suspect that they are doing the throwing Spaghetti at the Wall thing and their goal is really to scare people into shutting up rather than really bringing a serious lawsuit that they can win.

  41. You are absolutely right, Alex. After the 4 of us were sued, Meaghan, a former church member, posted on my blog using her name. She was probably the first person to use her real name when posting because most former church members still live in fear of the man. The lawsuit was amended and she was added to the lawsuit. This was clearly a bully maneuver by the pastor to say: If you post anything on Julie Anne’s blog, you, too, will be sued.

    This could very well happen here, but Bob needs to get a reality check that it’s very difficult to win a defamation case. Does anyone have Bob Grenier’s e-mail address? Perhaps I should send him a copy of the judge’s ruling in my case.

  42. I think “anon” was the person that flew in and quickly flew out after throwing some darts my way. Thinking still what I thought then—its for the opposing camp.

  43. Clarification: “from the opposing camp.” That would not be surprising considering the source.

  44. Even if BG looses in court, if his actions causes other CC victims to keep quiet, he and the other CC big boys would win. This case is not about justice. It is about intimidation.

  45. Kevin, that’s a real concern with all this. It’s clearly an attempt to silence people from speaking out…and I’ve already heard from some in the blogging community that it’s working on them.

    It won’t stop me from speaking out unless a judge is going to put me in jail for it or something ridiculous like that

  46. Kevin,

    Perhaps for a “moment,” but God hates those who oppresses, intimidates, bullies, terrorize, scheme, rape, molest, betrays, and abuses ways, we unless having been abuse can only fathom. Therefore, He will raise up another to speak against these things. Just as He raised up the Prophets and the multitudes of saints that have gone before us. One day, and I hope very soon, He will come to gather us together and for those who have done these things, He will be the final voice, they will hear on this. That, we can rest assured. May this court case bring honor and glory to his name. May it, above all be used to exact the changes needed to enable CC and all churches to realize that we, whether, the toes or the head are part of the body of Christ and He alone is our King, our Lord, and our Savior. And that no one, has the right to abuse another, nor to turn their eyes and ears from doing what is needed to put an end to it.

  47. Silencing the victim is not the solution—-silencing the victim is a hand tool for Satan.

  48. Alex, Linda
    We already CC has the funds to hire the lawyers to go after their victims and harrass them. What you may not know is they have the tech guys to harass their victims. They can shut down this blog within minutes but they have not done so because because it will only slow us down. They want something that is long term that will put fear on anyone who dares to mess with them. The internet gives people anonimity and their first goal is to identify their targets and their sources. There are CC pastors who are very much aware of the problems among their fellow pastors who are on their own identifying the problem pastors. They have chosen to blog about the problems because they are powerless to fix the problem from within the movement. They still love CC and want to reform it. Their hope is that discerning people would leave the bad CC churches and find the good ones because there are still good ones out there.

  49. I just want to correct my grammar on my first sentence. I meant to say “We already know CC has the funds…..”

  50. I will be fasting tomorrow and Thursday. Admittedly it is easy to do because I literally get nauseous every time I think of the lawsuit documents. I keep waiting for someone, anyone from the CC camp nationwide or maybe even worldwide to step in and say “Enough is enough, we want to hear the allegations of Alex and his brothers and of former staff at CCV and we want to resolve the issues that they have alleged and we also want to acknowledge that a lack of true accountability has in fact led to all types of known abuses throughout the CC movement and we repent of that and want the congregants nationwide to know about all of it so that they can hold us accountable to make sure that steps are put in place movement-wide that will stop abuses from continuing to happen because we know that God is not pleased with things the way they have been but we are willing to do anything to see Him pleased with our repentance and corrections and even with our acceptance of any consequences”.

    I keep waiting…….

    Today I thought about something Julie Anne said about the fear of man causing people not to use their real names on blogs. I have to admit that is true for me, but not because of a fear of what people will think of me personally. I realized today that I am actually afraid because based on the lack of true accountability at the CC I left and the things that have happened system-wide is there any way to know what to expect? If within the CC system nationwide there have been pastors and leaders and employees who actually went on for years claiming to know Jesus but then got caught by the law after sexually molesting children, what other types of men are there and what are they capable of? If this question did not truly bother me I would not ask it.

    Even the fact that CC leaders would probably not think that it is right for someone to ask that question bothers me. When I say it bothers me I mean it makes me feel physically ill. This is not the Church Jesus said that He would build! This does not reflect my Savior one bit! The enormity of how much this screams that CC has misrepresented itself has been hitting me so hard, that today I actually cried. I cried for the years I spent at the CC I left and the money I tithed and the spiritual mediocrity I accepted for my life while there, even though I should have been warned away by the spiritual mediocrity in leaders. It grieves me that I spent years not giving my Savior the best of me but settling for a socialized religious experience that didn’t really ask anyone to die to the flesh and self-centered living , but allowed people to live in a pattern of sin-confess, sin-confess, sin-confess, that denied the power of the Holy Spirit. It also grieves me that every time I heard something about the CC movement that suggested godlessness I said ignorant things like “Let’s not gossip”. It grieves me that there are people who I care about who are still exactly like I was, trapped in a mind-fog that would make them incapable of seeing that an organization cannot fight things like human-trafficking when it cannot even effectively screen its leadership ranks for child abusers and pedophiles.

    This may sound unusual but it is not so much that I am afraid of being hurt by someone as I am afraid of the effect my being hurt would have on other people. At the CC I left, when I experienced spiritual abuse and found out about other cases of spiritual abuse that I could not shush away as gossip, I knew that if I had not been a psychologically strong person and if I did not really know Jesus I would have had a nervous breakdown. It all upset me greatly and made me recognize the effect an organization of trust can have on vulnerable people when that trust is broken and I thought back to the multiple suicides over the years of people heavily involved at the CC I left and I wondered. I wondered but I discarded my wonderings and instead I kept trying to believe that I was dealing with godly people gone wrong. I shared information with them like they really were people deserving of trust because I truly wanted to believe the best. I still want to believe the best about some within the CC I left. I would prefer to believe that they are people trapped there because they have no where else to go and who deal with people poorly beause they have to follow the rules set for them and that they are in a mind-fog, than to think they are all the type of people who condone a lack of accountability and really care about nothing else but a facade and a pay-check. But I keep waiting for someone to truly show that what I want to believe is not naive….

    This site shook me up when I found it a few months ago. I saw some things said about a few people who I believe to be innocents trapped in CC and initially that made me want this site taken down. But now I think that someone within one of the CCs wrote those things and picked people they know everyone likes so they could discredit this site. I also believe that is possible that any comment on here that seems to be filled with pure hate is written by people in the CC movement who are trying to discredit this site and the legitimate complaints of people on here and to prevent true scrutiny of CC by godly people who come across this site. I have a right to say that if I believe it and it is truly what I believe. But a few months ago because of my initial impressions of some of those off-color comments, I said I would pray and resolved not to come back to this site. But I kept thinking about the other people who wrote things that I could see were out of genuine concern to warn the public and were not filled with hate but with hurt and disillusionment and I could relate to much of what was being said and then I realized that the problems at the CC I left were not isolated to one part of the movement…they were movement wide!

    I did not think I was completely alone before because I knew about other people who tried to speak up about things at the CC I left. But this site showed me the worst possible outcomes nationwide of a lack of accountability and actually forced me to go back and assess things I had written off as gossip in the past and I found out that they were not gossip after all! There were in fact past pastors and leaders in the CC movement nationwide who had been convicted of child molestation, there were in fact past lawsuits for large sums of money between leaders in the CC system, there were in fact past associations with at least one CC and people whose business dealings were not above reproach, there was in fact an ex CC leader caught soliciting a prostitute, there were in fact a host of other things that I think if I had known about before would have made me leave the CC movement running if necessary! I believe that truly so I say it and I have a right to say it and if I believe something like that so strongly and I say nothing what would that make me?

    In my own issues at the CC I left, I thought I was experiencing the results of a recent spiritual decline. I not only highlighted areas of spiritual darkness within the organization and their effect on different people but I shared any past failings in my life, thinking that they would see that I was not a self-righteous hypocrite but that I was someone yearning to be in environment where the holiness of God was honored and where people lived lives that reflected the finished work of the Cross. Everything I said fell on deaf ears. It was not important to them if there was true holiness, only that there was the appearance of holiness. I am free to say that if I believe it. I would not say that unless I believed it. That is called strength of conviction and looking at the facts at hand and having an impression that bothers you so much that you have to speak out. Why would any godly movement want to suppress that instead of using it as a calayst for repentance and transformation?

    The Church of the Bible is a group of people who yearn for unity with our Savior and who are not content to live in darkness pretending to be righteous when their deeds are evil. They want their evil deeds to be crushed and die with the flesh and replaced by righteous deeds performed as they walk in the Spirit. They are upset and convicted by personal sin and when they make mistakes they are willing to accept any earthly consequences if necessary because their primary desire is to walk forward in holiness and reap the heavenly rewards. There are people who truly belong to this Church worldwide. They want to turn away completely from the fake fronts of human religion and walk by the Spirit. It is organizations that market themselves as providers of God’s Word while not holding fast to the convictions of the same Word, that make it hard for the true Church to arise and reflect the light and glory of Jesus. I truly believe that, so I say it!

    Regardless of CC’s response to this site, there are still people who have convictions about what they believe. Those convictions make them want something more than a form of godliness without power. Those were the type of people who turned away from the Pharisees and their hypocrisy and followed Jesus in the Bible and today they are also the type of people who turn away from a system that cannot hold its leadership accountable to God’s righetous standards and cannot acknowledge that there are problems, huge, scary problems that need to be addressed. There must be at least one person some where in the CC movement willing to be part of God’s plan to transform the system so that it looks like it is truly part of the Church…

    I keep waiting….

  51. In response to post #48:
    “They want something that is long term that will put fear on anyone who dares to mess with them.”

    Whaaaat?
    They are going to resort to cyber-terrorism so that people won’t speak out against them?

    Kevin, if possible, can you give your credentials, and where you got this info? Because until then, it’s gossip.

    One of the few things I had respect for the CC Movement was they haven’t been funding Yelp so that their church’s reviews can be filtered (except for CC Visalia, oh the irony). It’s $300/month to be a Yelp Sponsor. Some background info, Yelp is a shady organization, and are known to extort $$ from businesses by promising to remove bad reviews. It’s all documented, you can search Google.

    Many of the Emerging Church movement, such as Central Christian Church in Las Vegas, have done this. But I’ve yelped big CC churches, such as Costa Mesa and Harvest, and they haven’t touched their Yelp page. You can write a review saying Pastor #$%^ is a fat pig, and I’m sure that review will stay up forever. Harvest doesn’t have 5 stars, that’s a sure sign they are not filtering out bad reviews.

    But if CC Movement is going toward cyber terrorism to shut people down, I will NEVER step back into a CC Church again. Talk about Nazism at it’s finest. We live in the US, we have the right to free speech. If I can write more critical things about my country than I can about my church, it’s time to leave the church FOREVER.

    BTW: my real name is Kathy. And I encourage everyone who writes critically against fraudulent churches to show their identity, and show that they’re real people, important people, who have funded/supported the CC Movement and have left because of the recent disturbing controversies surrounding the CC Movement.

  52. Overly concerned,

    As I read your post I wanted to cry with you.
    Thank you for taking the time to share your heart.
    Your thoughts practically mirror mine.

    I want to say something that may be misinterpreted by those such as Kathy, who took one sentence out of my post on her 35 and disregarded the rest of my heart and posted profanity.
    Likewise, she overlooked “Overly concerned’s” eloquent post as well.

    As I have been praying the last day, I have mixed feelings. The facts are that many of us have been abused, beaten and hurt by what we have experienced. This blog has been an outlet for many of us, and I am personally thankful to Alex, and I know God has and will use him. If anyone has been reading my posts they would know our family was almost destroyed.

    Having said that, we have to be careful that we are not swallowed up by the cause, so much so that we can’t hear the Holy Spirit and add fuel to the fire.

    Can God move miraculously here? Can he change the hearts involved? Would he want a lawsuit between family? Why aren’t we praying for Alex’s parents, for a move of God? Why isn’t anyone willing to fast and pray together? Why isnt anyone on the prayer thread?

  53. P.S. what I am really saying, which I have been hearing from the Lord for myself.., is just to make sure our own hearts are pure.

    Kathy@35 ” I guess the closest example would be wanting to scream at your mother, because you knew abuse was going on, but she kept denying it? Didn’t you just want to be heard, just have someone agree with you, so you knew you weren’t insane?”

    I knew I want insane. I was angy, yes, but I didnt think I was insane. Didnt you read the rest, or you just used what I expressed, as you said to “stand on your soapbox”?
    This is exactly what I was expressing in the last post. Adding fuel to the fire. Not hearing the heart, because of our own personal agenda. I think we have to be careful not to fall into the same trap as our accusers.

    Ephesians 5:3-5 is in response to your post to me.

  54. I guess the closest example would be wanting to scream at your mother, because you knew abuse was going on, but she kept denying it? Didn’t you just want to be heard, just have someone agree with you, so you knew you weren’t insane? ”

    The Lord just reminded me Kathy, that this same mother who was too weak to stand up to my father and protect her kids, is now dying of cancer, and He is using me, her daughter who once walked around for years being angry at her, to love her…to show her HIS love through ME…to lead her to a knowledge of Him and His love for her, through ME, so that she may leave this earth with the assurance of eternal life. I can ONLY do this through Christ who strengthens me. And only through the Holy Spirit who is residing in all of us.

  55. Alex,

    How’s it going with the PayPal or other type of account to set up a fund for this case?

    Overly Concerned: Much to think about and to consider by all who claims Christ as their Lord and Savior. The world has entered into the church in the ways that we have been told throughout the Scriptures. We wonder how can these things be. As Alex has shared, it is fear that would undo us, but our stedfast focus will be to put our trust and to be bold, walking the strength of the Holy Spirit to do the things set before us, so to call to an account those things that should never have entered in and taken hold of the body of Christ. It is a sad day when those who call themselves Christians would use the law in an attempt to silence anyone in order to intimidate and spread fear in speaking the truth and standing for those who have been abused, betrayed, oppressed, persecuted, then abandoned and then made out to be the villian for having the courage to do so.

    Some one made mentioned that it is impossible for the good pastors to basically speak to loudly or more directly on these things. That to me, is one of the most dysfunctional statement I have ever heard. At the same, no I don’t know all that goes on behind the scenes, nor am I aware of the politics and alliances, but I do know this. Right is right, and wrong is wrong and the wall can only hold as long as fear is the glue that is holding it together. Think of it this way, if I can be out in the street trusting in the Lord while speaking the truth and coming alongside of Alex to support what he is attempting to accomplish for his family and those in the church, as a woman and sister in the sight of the Living God, certainly those who are living far more comfortably than I am, are men and brothers in the Lord, can do so much more. IMO I keep on asking, Lord where are the leaders you have called to support and protect the least of these?

  56. The News Boys, “and when the oceans rage, I dont have to be afraid, because I know that You love me, Your love never fails!” :-)

  57. http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh377.sht

    It Is Well with My Soul | Horatio G. Spafford

    When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
    When sorrows like sea billows roll;
    Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say,
    It is well, it is well, with my soul.

    Refrain:
    It is well, with my soul,
    It is well, it is well, with my soul.

    Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
    Let this blest assurance control,
    That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
    And hath shed His own blood for my soul.
    My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
    My sin, not in part but the whole,
    Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,

    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
    For me, be it Christ, be it Christ hence to live:

    If Jordan above me shall roll,
    No pang shall be mine, for in death as in life
    Thou wilt whisper Thy peace to my soul.
    But, Lord, ’tis for Thee, for Thy coming we wait,
    The sky, not the grave, is our goal;

    Oh, trump of the angel! Oh, voice of the Lord!
    Blessed hope, blessed rest of my soul!

    And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
    The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
    The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
    Even so, it is well with my soul.

  58. Linda, this is a profound statement you made:
    “Some one made mentioned that it is impossible for the good pastors to basically speak to loudly or more directly on these things. That to me, is one of the most dysfunctional statement I have ever heard. At the same, no I don’t know all that goes on behind the scenes, nor am I aware of the politics and alliances, but I do know this. Right is right, and wrong is wrong and the wall can only hold as long as fear is the glue that is holding it together.”

    It seems like someone is taking notice in Calvary Chapel Philadelphia by putting on their child safety seminar at the end of November. Don McClure will be covering the last session 5 on “Our Biblical Mandate To Care For and Protect Our Children”. This is all well and good but my real concern is what Alex has been raising on this blog. As far as I know Don McClure has been completely silent with Alex’s concern and this concerns me deeply. How come there has not been an INDEPENDENT investigation into any of the allegations that Alex has brought forth? With the lawsuit against Alex, the stakes cannot be any higher since our legal system is based largely upon precedent. If Alex ends up losing this battle, which I don’t think he will, the legal precedent will basically be that victims do not have a right to speak up and warn others. What a sad day for the church this will be. But I have a more optimistic view that Alex will win and this will be a turning point in Calvary Chapel as well as the greater church at large. I’m praying for you Alex.

  59. Post #50 by OC so eloquently and fully expresses my concerns and thoughts with the CC Movement. Thank you for that, OC! I copied and posted that on the facebook page of the CC I formerly attended; it will probably get immediately deleted by their FB admin when they see it, or perhaps they’ll file a defamation suit against everyone to make some money for the “business” they’re struggling to maintain. Who knows maybe it will buy them the new tools to further “PROMOTE” themselves (Rudy was always fond of taking people down a notch if he thought they were being self-promoting, meanwhile, didn’t hesitate to promote Papa Chucks money making publications as well as those from other CC key people. The whole organization is guilty of self-promotion to a fault and to the extent of criticizing things and people who are not CC. Makes me sick to my stomach, thinking of all the materials I’ve purchased since CC Albuquerque, Tucson (both Robert Furrow and Scott Richards, CC Belen, CC Hereford, CC Tri-City in Tempe, and CC Chandler– all of it promoted HEAVILY by their leaders.

  60. Oops, forgot to close parentheses in a couple spots above, but I’m sure people have spotted the places they were needed already.

  61. Sure as I sad it would:

    http://www.facebook.com/CalvaryChandler?ref=ts&fref=ts

    It was deleted within a few minutes of posting it.

  62. *said…

  63. Alex is there a way you can allow a short window of opportunity to edit what one
    posts such as to correct errors?

  64. Andrew,

    You are so Kool—–I too am concerned about the sudden show of concern without becoming directly involved or even acknowledging situations such as Alex and others, such as my own. What I see is this:

    When a narcissistically oriented individual or system has been exposed, the will create a smokescreen to neutralize the heat they are getting in order to do damage control. For example say that my husband who was leading double life, playing Dr. Jykel and Mr. Hyde, and felt his greatest threat of being exposed was from me, his wife. Now in order to protect his reputation, and to use tactics that no one would approve to keep his wife silent, even if it meant death, he might come up with a scheme such as: telling her he paid to have the rack and pinion repaired, but in reality he only put brake fluid in instead. But months later, she finds out that he did not have the work done. Say that the mechanic was so concerned that he showed her that the entire underside from the front seat to the front of the car was drenched in oil. Say the mechanic told her that all it took for one stone could have hit the asphalt and caused a spark, thus setting her car of fire. What more, the mechanic also tells her that the only work her husband ever had done was a oil change. That at any given time, her brakes could have locked up and sent her over the cliff or off the highway or into another vehicle. So then I report that to the pastor as proof of the abuse and my husband attempt to cover up while appearing to be a godly man. Of course, my husband denies this and tells me and everyone else that I am crazy. But not before he at a later date decides to pay for part of a total mechanical bill for an unrelated problem. At the same time, he asked me for my phone number and tells me he will not help with the cost of this repair unless I give it to him. But I tell him no, I cannot give it to him because the last time I did he made a false report in an attempt to get a restraining order against me. I contact his pastor again to let him know of this interaction and why I do not feel safe giving my husband my phone number. The next thing I know, he goes directly to the mechanic and pay a very small portion of the bill. But several months later I find out not only has he been able to get his pastor and other to believe that the rack and pinion and oil pan event never took place, he has them thinking and believing that he is trying to help me even if I insist on being homeless. A few months later, I then learn that he is involved in ministering to the homeless. But he still haven’t repented of the abuse, betrayal, and treachery committed against me and our marriage and his pastor continues to support him, while writing me off.

    Smoke and Mirrors——it’s a way to counter the truth. Remember, the Pastor who preached all the time on sexual immorality—but then got caught being with prostitutes: Smoke and Mirrors.

    I’m not saying the child safety seminar is not a good thing. I’m just saying that to do this and if it was prompted even in the slightest way by Alex’s site, then they have fallen short of the mark by not acknowledging this and contacting Alex and other victims who have been abused to support them in their efforts to be heard and protected.

  65. Hannah said: Can God move miraculously here? Can he change the hearts involved? Would he want a lawsuit between family? Why aren’t we praying for Alex’s parents, for a move of God? Why isn’t anyone willing to fast and pray together? Why isnt anyone on the prayer thread?

    Hannah – Perhaps no one is in the prayer thread because they don’t want to go to the prayer thread. Many people here have been spiritually abused. How they work out their spiritual relationship with God and when they do it is deeply personal. In fact, some spiritually abused people will never go to a church again. Some won’t open their Bibles or pray for a long time. If you are able to pray, that’s great. I still go through spiritual valleys.

  66. Linda,

    Jimmy Swaggert?

  67. It will be interesting to compare notes with the Sovereign Grace lawsuit situation. With that situation, you have a bunch of celebrity pastors/leaders and folks part of Gospel Coalition (Ligon Duncan, Al Mohler, Ray Ortlund, Chris Trueman, etc) who quickly defended CJ Mahaney when he took a leave of absence last year. They have been notably silent regarding the lawsuit.

    I highly suspect you will see similar behavior with CC pastors. Watch the patterns – they become predictable after a while. One interesting note – - the secular world can see through this crap and call it what it is far quicker than those in the church system. The world literally is watching and judging Christians.

  68. Hannah,

    Prayer is a very intimate thing between a person and God… some people would rather go into their prayer closets than vulnerably putting it on display. CC leaders often would exploit the vulnerabilities of things divulged in prayer about oneself to the point of using it as a means of control over peole– another form of abuse and exploitation. Hence, I’m not surprised if people are not readily flocking to a forum of public prayer just yet or at all.

  69. JULIE stated:

    “One interesting note – – the secular world can see through this crap and call it what it is far quicker than those in the church system. The world literally is watching and judging Christians.”

    Like turtles or crabs retreating further into their shells, Julie. Seen it many times– it’s often what happens when people realize they have no excuse for poor conduct or behavior.

  70. **control over people**

  71. … not just prayer, but also things you told them about yourself in private conversations, were just one more tool for them to manipulate and exploit you!

  72. Unfortunately, yes, Andy G. One example of so many pastors yet to be held to an account, along with those in the body of Christ, I would add.

  73. Add to # 71:

    …kind of like the way the Catholic priests use confession as a tool– nothing about you is held in confidence, but you better not dare say anything you about them or the organization– Calvary Chapel is no different.

  74. omit the second “you” in my last sentence in the last post… darn ipad wants to think for me, creating all the errors.

  75. This is why it is so important to have a church structure that is educated regarding abuse, not of children, but also towards woman, as well. Particularly, when a church holds to a complementarian position. This is also why it is important that the books be opened to at minimum provide a monthly statment of expenses and expenditures. This is is why it is important to know how our tithes and offerings are being spent. This is also why it is important to have a church structure that enables the congregation to participate in the decision making processes that goes on, including church discipline and budgetary issues. This is why it is also important that woman be encouraged to take on leadership roles (other than being a pastor or deacon, if complementarian) that is beyond children/woman ministries, and secretarial duties or singing in the choir, so to speak. This is why it is so important that when one says they are affiliated, they don’t band together to protect just the leadership, but also to do so to protect those who are or have been abused as well. And this is why there ought to be be a benevolence fund set up to help those who have been abused or left abandoned to die in the street to pay for legal, medical, and counseling assistance to assist the real victim in healing and seeing that happened to them doesn’t happen to anyone else.

  76. Linda. I said this before that in CC it appears to mainly be about perception and that is why this blog is such a threat to them. You are right about the smoke and mirrors and when someone attempts to pull the curtain back and take a peek behind the scenes, you will be discredited immediately. This metaphor of drinking the Kool Aid never bothered me too much before because I thought it was referring to being filled with the Spirit and just having a lot of love but what I realized over time is there are people completely brain washed and unaware and unconcerned with what is going on in the church. I think even if just one of the major CC pastors was willing to at least aknowledge that there is now a lawsuit going on where a major CC pastor is sueing his son, it would be a start. But to cover this up and not even mention it only adds fuel to the fire.

  77. @ 75 Clarification: ” not JUST of children, but also towards woman . . . ”

    ” to assist the real victim in healing and seeing that WHAT happened to them doesn’t happen to anyone else.”

  78. Andrew @ 76,

    Go read up on Jonestown or watch a documentary for the meaning of drinking the Kool-Aid.

  79. Andy,

    I do know about the true meaning of drinking the Kool-Aid from Jonestown but I never took it seriously when referring to those in CC cause I just viewed it all in jest and viewed it as non-believers poking fun of born-again believers. But my perception changed when I critized a CC-ite for hypocrisy and he immediately took the posture that I was referring to him as a Kool-Aid drinker and he viewed the Kool-Aid drinking label as almost a badge of honor. So now I no longer considered this just something non-believers would say to poke fun of believers. This truly is a label now that I don’t want to be associated with at all.

  80. Andrew,

    I took a few minutes and thought about your comment @ 76. I am in total agreement.

    I was thinking of the ramification of this and it is not pretty at all. The reality of all of this is quite revolting, to say it mildly. I wonder what Paul would have to say on this. That is, I doubt seriously knowing how how systems like these operate and the grapevine among leadership goes, that there was not one who was not aware of a situation like Alex, whereas, Chuck Smith, or any other more prominent CC Pastor was not contacted or involved. And seeing how it was not handled gave a clear carte blanche to sin against the body of Christ by covering up or ignoring them entirely. What more, I would think that if any pastor fell into this tempatation, then it would leave them open for another pastor to keep them quiet, should they also be guilty of something that ought not be kept secret. Going even another step, would this be good reason also to use the “Complementarian” position, not as it was supposed to be used, but to put a spin on it by “lording” over wives, instead. This would in effect, have an effect as it has had upon women who are or have been abused, but are too afraid to say anything, particularly pastor’s wives, being ever so privy to what happens to women like myself who was bold enough to say, “NO.” this is wrong, and I am not required, nor will I compromise my faith, nor my walk by cosigning to your ungodly and unholy choices and behaviors.

    The absolute horror of it all—brings much grief to my heart knowing the reality of this. Surely, there is one pastor——-to step out into the light, that is, truely be willing to lay his life down and to pick up his cross as we have done, to bring repentance, healling, and reconciliation between CC leadership and the congregation that the Moses Model does not permit them to acknowledge as more than just “spiritual” members of the body of Christ, but as much as flesh and blood, as themselves, as revealed in the New Testament church.

  81. Linda,

    It is quite possible that there is not even one CC pastor out there that is brave enough to come forward. I have heard pastors complain about Internet bloggers until the cows come home but I haven’t heard one CC pastor yet talk about their affiliated pastor suing his own son. To be clear, I am not asking that any CC pastor has to take a side but to not even aknowledge what is going on is absolutely remarkable and completely irresponsible to the congregation. Why not call in an INDEPENDENT third party and I stress independant party to at least establish some baseline facts that to be quite frank seem quite obvious. Why did this have to go to court?

  82. Why did this have to go to court? Because of the mentality of this type of person. Why did my pastor take me to court – going against scripture? Because he views himself as “special” and above the rest. BG is of the same ilk – - – he probably read about my lawsuit and thought, “but I’m not like him, my case is special”. Study these characters. The pulpit is filled with narcissists. What’s almost laughable is these pastors are also the loudest voices proclaiming themselves to be humble. Look at CJ – he wrote a whole book on Humility. My pastor told us his personal story on humility about 8-10 times in the 2 years we were there. I couldn’t believe he kept repeating it when it was about himself. Hello!!!! If you have a story on humility, you ought to find someone ELSE to honor. I’ll bet folks here could tell me of BG’s humility stories. Am I right? Again – - this is a predictable pattern. I’ve been e-mailing with CC people and I can almost finish their stories for them.

  83. Andrew,

    As I’ve experienced with some, they seem to pride themselves in telling you to not take any paranoias too seriously, especially when you suspect something is not quite right with the leadership or its structure. It’s just one more tactic that’s used to keep you off kilter about your sense of awareness as to how shady their standard way of doing things is– which is no standard at all, it’s all based on the subjectivity of their Moses-in-Charge and his cohort inner circle of “Yes men.”

  84. Julie,

    You hit that “humility sermon” nail point square on the head, dead center!!!!

  85. Andrew,

    “but to not even acknowledge ……”

    That, my friend and brother in the Lord is the key, isn’t it. And the ticket is to let it all trickle down to leaving the courts to decide —- except we all know that man’s court does not necessarily and in most case permit the entire truth to be known. It certainly does not keep in mind the things of God, as noted in His Word. It certainly does not foster repentance and reconciliation or even healing but rather, pits human beings against each other. Justice—–hopefully so, but at what cost and by whom will they be represented, and will each attorney be walking the way of the Lord—I seriously doubt it.

    You know Andrew, speaking as a female, it terrifies me now to be in a church where the leadership fails to fulfill their role in protecting me from the abuse that my husband can do against me and the only option I have is “if” I have enough proof I can go to the courts, who will only encourage me to divorce him, with absolutely consideration given to me being a woman in the Lord and just want the abuse to stop, not necessarily to end our marriage. And even if then, unless there is physical abuse, this is difficult to prove particularly when your husband puts on that godly appearance and then has wormed his way into being part of the very church leadership that was supposed to have been there to hold him to an account should he not treat me with honor, love, respect, and dignity. How much more is it for a child like Alex growing up with his step-dad being a pastor and not one Pastor stepped out in all these years of this box to be his champion?

    Not one, rose up and told Chuck Smith or the rest—this is wrong and unless you do what we all know is the right thing—then I will. Can you imagine what affect, the impact that would have had upon the entire Mose Model. We would have stood by him. Heck, I for one would have said, that is the pastor that church I would be willing to attend. But now, how can I possibly do this, knowing what I know and seeing so many including myself be subected to such abuse and corruption. In my mind, it far more dangerous in CC than it is having to deal with those in the world. At least they don’t pretend to make a game of people lives or fail to acknowledge that there is corruption in the world. No I am not ready or willing or even being foolish enough to trade the world for my faith and trust in Jesus. So, please people, don’t go there with me.

    I’m with you on the third party—-in the Lord, and agreed upon by all parties involved.

    Early this morning, while it was still dark, I met a couple of girls who had been in the streets for 8 days for the first time in their lives. In speaking with them, I asked them if they had heard about Jesus. They both told me they had. I asked them if they were hungry and they told me that they were, so I went inside the store and bought a small container of orange juice, chocholate milk, a couple of string cheese, and chedder cheese peanut butter crackers to share—. I then gave it to them and talked some more with them to get a feel for what led them to being homeless. One of the girls told me that neither of the girls parents would let them stay with them. So, I asked them what the problem was, if they both knew Jesus. One of the girl being very transparent with said it straight out: “I’ve decided to go my own way for awhile.”

    This young girl was more honest than the CC leadership, my husband, and others who have chosen to use God’s Words for their own self serving agendas. What more, even though she knew exactly what God’s Word said, she did not deny it and clearly stated that she was in rebellion, but never the less wanted and welcomed prayer for her and the friend she was with. After leading them in prayer, they each hugged me on their own, without any prompting. Now to me, that was church, at least according to my Bible.

    By the way, I would asked for prayer on their behalf as well from anyone that reads this. They are terribly young and prime for the those who prey. A huge hedge of the Lord protection upon their lives and on their well-being while the Lord works his purpose in their lives and in the lives of their respective family members in the home and in the church.

  86. Linda said:

    “The catch 22 is in the form of a lack of church discipline and support of the victim while holding the abuser to an strict account to enable the abuser to do what is necessary to earn her respect and trust.”

    How would this play out in the Church if the abuser refuses to go along with this process?

  87. The problem in many cases of abuse is it becomes a he said she said type of situation so who does the Church believe?

  88. The Church cannot force anyone into a reconcillitation process so how then do they deal with someone who doesn’t go along with the program?

  89. What every church does when applying church discipline when the offender refuses to submit to church discipline, depending upon the offense.

    Scriptures tells us that a man calls himself a brother but after being held to an account continues, we are not to fellowshipped that person. We are not even to eat with such a one.

    What would do Solomon seeing how you don’t participate or believe in “organized” churches but rather hold a home church type system instead. What would do if a brother or sister was abusing their spouse or children and refused to submit to discipline (correction), not punishment?

  90. I myself have seen women/men go to church leadership and complain about their spouses and try rto say they were being abused but a closer look revealed that they were just trying to get their way in the marriage. That’s why I believe a Husband and Wife should handle their disagreements among themselves without going outside that circle of trust. In my situation my ex wife was unhappy becuase I didn’t want to buy a house or let her run up the credit card, she was also upset that I took my son to a football game with a freind of mine. I was trying to tell her to be wise with our finances and not spend frivalously but she called me a cheap skate. She didn’t like welcoming brethen into our home and would be misreable when we did have company. She blamed many things her kids did on my kids. She was verbally abusive when I didn’t give in to her. She also complained constantly about not having material things or not going out to nice restruants sorta like a continual dripping of rain. She also went on disability after we got married leaving me to pay the full rent on a five bedroom townhome when I was also supporting my three kids on my own. She went on disability but yet she could go out no the town at night dressed to the nines. She also refused to be wise with money when we were tigbht and she over drew our account three times in one week but yet I was a cheap skate. So beacuse I refused to let her have her way she went to our Pastor and his wife and complained about me and put me down as the bad guy. I know the drill already with these Weak Pastors, they will take the wife’s side much of the time so that they can be politically correct. I didn’t even give this guy the time of day because I knew he already was taking her side without even talking to me once so I left his fellowship. Many of these Pastors like to come in between a Husband and Wife but remember the Husband NOT the Pastor is the head of the home.

  91. You know, Solomon, this discussion have already been exhausted elsewhere on Alex’s site. So for now, I’m not going entertain it. There are far more important issues at hand. I would refer you back to Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors —– the responses there will be the same.

  92. Linda said:

    “This is why it is so important to have a church structure that is educated regarding abuse, not of children, but also towards woman, as well. Particularly, when a church holds to a complementarian position. This is also why it is important that the books be opened to at minimum provide a monthly statment of expenses and expenditures. This is is why it is important to know how our tithes and offerings are being spent. This is also why it is important to have a church structure that enables the congregation to participate in the decision making processes that goes on, including church discipline and budgetary issues. This is why it is also important that woman be encouraged to take on leadership roles (other than being a pastor or deacon, if complementarian) that is beyond children/woman ministries, and secretarial duties or singing in the choir, so to speak. This is why it is so important that when one says they are affiliated, they don’t band together to protect just the leadership, but also to do so to protect those who are or have been abused as well. And this is why there ought to be be a benevolence fund set up to help those who have been abused or left abandoned to die in the street to pay for legal, medical, and counseling assistance to assist the real victim in healing and seeing that happened to them doesn’t happen to anyone else.”

    This post above again illustrates the Dark Age mentality that Men don’t also suffer abuse at almost the same rate as Women. Just like Men, Women can be just as Evil

  93. Just finished reading the lawsuit. I don’t have a lot of experience with these sorts of things, but it doesn’t seem like it’s very well written. And I don’t know very much about what is considered defamation or libel, so I could be totally wrong, but it seems like a lot of the examples given of libelous and defaming statements really aren’t either of those things. :/

  94. Readers concerning Solomon’s issues: See Dealing with child abuse, spousal abuse, molestation in the church…and a proper Jesus Model of spiritual leadership: “Abuse and Pastors: An Open Letter from a Pastor to Pastors”

    There’s not need to rehash all this again, Solomon. We all know men can be abused, but we also know that by far woman more apt to be abused do to a patriarchel system and misuse of authority. Sorry, you went through what you did, but at the same time when certain types of abuses are being perpetrated, then it is impossible to work out with the offending spouse without additional intervention.

    I’m done, so please don’t bait me here.

  95. Oh, you can find this under September 2012.

  96. Linda said:

    “What would do Solomon seeing how you don’t participate or believe in “organized” churches but rather hold a home church type system instead. What would do if a brother or sister was abusing their spouse or children and refused to submit to discipline (correction), not punishment?”

    Exactly what you said and it would be easier to do in a home church setting because of the intimacy. They would not be welcomed in the home whereas Institutional churches do not have that much control especially when it is a mega church. See in the Home Church settings there isn’t a great need for money so the Pastor is more apt to disfellowship a woman/man that is abusive as they don’t need to worrry about paying off a buidling mortgage as they may fear losing a giving unit.

  97. Solomon, You are right that you cannot force people into a reconcilliation process particularly when they are non-member members but the new CCA counsil can certainly put the heavy hand down hard on the only members of this system (the Moses Model pastors) and compel them to deal with issues in their congregation or become unaffiliated when one resorts to suing their own son. The problem is with the Moses Model system and there really is no way to fix it other than to renounce it.

  98. Thank you, Andrew.

  99. J2theperson:

    I agree with you that the lawsuit is poorly written. It reminds me of my former pastor’s lawsuit. For defamation, they are going to have to prove that the defendants intentionally lied and lied with the intent to harm (malice). That is very difficult to prove in court and their examples/exhibits are laughable. They also fail to show context. This obvious lapse will not fare well for them.

  100. In response to #53:

    Hannah, this is the last time I’m going to respond to you. You have a right to your feelings, but I’m not going to debate with you and take away from Alex’s post and blog.

    I wrote the response to you because I feel strongly about what is going on here and I disagreed with your opinion that some posts were harsh. Actually, if you look at my first posts to this blog, you’ll see that I chided Alex for what I thought were trivial posts, I was actually annoyed coming here because this thread was posted on CCGV’s Yelp page…. but after visiting this site a few more times and researching the stuff Alex posted, I see the need for him to do such things. And if I may be so bold, I see the greater work that God is doing here. So, in essense, it wasn’t any anger towards your post, I responded because I had the felt the same way as you at one time.

    But where we disagree is that you think this is “foolish talk or crude joking” as you quoted Eph 5:3-5 (I don’t see how the right of that scripture could apply to me) and you are wrong. Like I said before, what Alex is doing here is revolutionary and was something that should have been in place years ago.

    This is not foolish talk, this is spiritual accountability for churches. This is a way for those who have been silenced to be given a voice. I, personally, know what it’s like to experience injustice (swindled) at a church and not be able to express it. But no one listened, because (really) no one cares, my problems vs. Alex’s are so small and petty, no one will lose sleep over it. But Alex’s accusation carry enough weight where people will stop their mundane, ordinary lives and take notice.

    It’s not just that, look at what his blog has done for other CC’s victims. It has given them courage to speak out. Look at all the travesties that go on in the CC Movement. It’s not us sitting back and going, “haha, look at that Chuck Smith, what a joke.” It’s painful stuff, like learning about CC Arcata and the ex-pastor’s child abuse and his wife’s suicide. Do you think if she found this blog, and was able to tell people what her husband was doing, she may be alive today? I do.

    Ok… I’ll even get spiritual about this… what do you think God thinks about the current CC Movement? CS loves to point out that God crushes the church’s enemies and even targeted Alex, but I don’t see Alex being crushed. If anything, this blog has gained momentum. People are drawn to it. The ones that are getting crushed are the Calvary Chapel’s being called out in this blog.

    But anyways, I’m just expressing opinions/beliefs, so I’m going to stop. I’m not going to reply any further, not because I don’t care, but I’ve learned long ago, one cannot have a successful debate about feelings and/or beliefs. People can believe whatever they want to believe, and no one can prove they’re right/wrong.

  101. Julie Anne, very interesting. Your own experience certainly does lend understanding to these issues presented in this lawsuit. So, would it be helpful if Alex had witnesses that could attest to how his site had helped them process through their own abuse situation with CC, while keeping our faith in check and always wanting the best for CC and the body of believers?

  102. Linda – Re #101 – - – I’m pretty sure that’s what I’ve been reading since my first visit here. People are connecting with stories. Even I, someone who has not been to a CC-church can connect with so many of the stories. That is the beauty of a site like this – the connections, the validations – people get that AHA moment and realize they aren’t the only one – they weren’t imagining the abuse. This is so helpful. Alex has done a wonderful thing by having this site for people to share.

  103. Kathy,

    You are taking my posts out of context and using a few statements I made to form an argument against me.
    I have been on this blog days, weeks months where there were only 3-5 of us, and I dont recall you being here often.
    If you read any of my posts during the last year you would know where I stand with Calvary Chapels. Of course I want to see reform. I was a huge obstacle because I was exposing darkness and they came after me with everything they had.

    Julie Anne,
    Prayer is the key to connection with God.
    Even in the most discouraging times, fellowship with God and is all yet everything we have.

    If my input aggravates anyone else as it seems to bother a few, I will refrain from any involvement here. You can’t fight spiritual warfare without prayer. So I will just pray for all involved.

  104. Kathy @ #100 wrote:

    I was actually annoyed coming here because this thread was posted on CCGV’s Yelp page…

    Would you tell me if that is “Green Valley/ Las Vegas “?

    Thanks

  105. Julie Anne,
    “Hannah – Perhaps no one is in the prayer thread because they don’t want to go to the prayer thread. Many people here have been spiritually abused. How they work out their spiritual relationship with God and when they do it is deeply personal. In fact, some spiritually abused people will never go to a church again. Some won’t open their Bibles or pray for a long time. If you are able to pray, that’s great. I still go through spiritual valleys.”

    You asked people on your blog to pray for Alex.

  106. ” Please be in prayer and support Alex and Tim (other defendant) in any way you can -”

    I am just wondering Julie Anne, why you asked for prayer for Alex.
    Did you just mean for others to just pray for helping him financially?
    If thats what you meant, then I stand corrected.

  107. Hannah

    No one is saying that we ought not to pray. Quite the contrary. We have all acknowledge that God is at the center of all of this and that we each need to put on the full armor of God while coming along Alex to provide concrete support. You would like to see people enter the prayer room. I, for one an not open to that suggestion at this time. If that offends you, that’s unfortunate, but that is my choice pray when, where, how — not yours.

    I think you are taking things way too personal and are being way to critical towards Kathy and Julie Anne. Just my opinion. Please do not start up with me.

  108. 1. “They want something that is long term that will put fear on anyone who dares to mess with them.”
    Whaaaat?
    They are going to resort to cyber-terrorism so that people won’t speak out against them?
    Kevin, if possible, can you give your credentials, and where you got this info? Because until then, In response to post #48:
    it’s gossip.

    Kathy, in response to your question on 51. By the way this is exactly the kind of response I expect from a CC mole.
    Years before Alex started this blog, there was Phoenix Preacher which was started by Michael Newham (Alex knows who he is). There was also a yahoo group started by Doug Gilliland but is no longer active. Both of these blogs were doing the same thing that Alex is doing right now.
    What I’m going to say what happened at Phoenix Preacher you can verify with Michael Newham himself. There were many CC victims that were posting their experiences at Phoenix Preacher that many CC pastors befriended Michael Newham in hopes to tone his blog down. There were a few CC pastors who were blogging anonymously as well and were revealing disturbing practices at other CCs. At one time, a blogger pretending to be Doug Gilliland (who Michael Newham knows) was trying to get an anonymous CC pastor to reveal his identity. The moderators of that blog knew Doug Gilliland’s internet location and knew this blogger was not Doug Gilliland. They are able to alert the anonymous CC pastor about the impostor. Even Michael Newham admitted that he was getting tons of spams in his in-box since he started his blog. This is just one incident at Phoenix Preacher I am sharing. Michael Newham has toned down a bit and Alex is even banned from Phoenix Preacher.
    At the CC yahoo group Doug Gilliland started, there was once a girl from Ireland who shared about some disturbing practices that their CC pastor was doing there. She used her full name on the blog and even gave the name of their city which gave away the name of their church. She was sharing a lot of detail about what was happening at their church and that she was disturbed by it. She was blogging for several weeks and like Julie Ann Smith said, there were a lot of consistencies that people who are lying have a problem with being consistent. Then one day, this girl posted that everything she said about her CC pastor and her church were total lies and that she repents of all the lies that she said. She tend said she will no longer blog in that yahoo group. We never heard from her since then.
    Kathy, you may say these are all here-say and gossips. That’s fine. The fact is blogs like this are a threat to CC’s pocketbooks. That is why CC has it’s goons whose job is to hunt down their victims to shut them up.

  109. Make no mistake, CC is not happy with the blog and people exposing stuff and talking about their bad experiences openly. Chuck and his attorney wanted me to shut it down and called it “sin” and a “refuse collector” and “tearing down the work of the Lord” etc.

    I won’t ever be silent about my bad experiences with CC and I plan on sharing my story for the rest of my life.

    I’m going to begin sharing my personal negative experiences with CC and how Chuck Smith and CCOF etc have neglected to help me, etc and how IMO, it’s not safe in Calvary Chapel for kids or adults based off of my experiences and knowledge of mountains of others experiences.

    In my opinion, it’s become cult-like in many areas and you just can’t tell until it’s too late whether you’ve stepped into a “good” CC or a bad CC or a terrible CC. They don’t have System Wide protections in place and they have a history of handling things badly and covering things up.

    Google reviews, Yelp, Yahoo, and review site where you can legally express your opinion and warn people is a good option. I wouldn’t necessarily name specific pastors, however, unless you aren’t afraid of potential suit if they are sinful jerk abusers like Bob Grenier.

    I’m going to share something like this around the country, a couple of reviews here, a couple there, weekly if not daily:

    “I grew up as a Calvary Chapel Pastor’s Kid. I was raised in Calvary Chapel. In my opinion it is not a safe place for adults and children. I was physically abused growing up by my Calvary Chapel Pastor step-dad. I watched him abuse my brother. So many families were hurt spiritually over the years. Families were torn apart. Women were yelled at to the point of tears. The finances were not made public and much of the money goes to fund the lifestyle of the Senior Pastor. The Moses Model gives the CC Pastor all the power and there is little to no recourse for the non-member member. I witnessed cult-like counseling, unscriptural advice and all sorts of lying and manipulation. A woman whose daughters were molested were told by the CC Senior Pastor not to report the abuse to authorities. As an adult, I confronted the abuse with my CC Pastor step-dad following Matt. 18. Then to his Board and Elders, then to CCOF, then Chuck Smith. They didn’t help, in fact Chuck Smith told me I was in greater sin for unforgiveness and should “get a life” when all I wanted was accountability and a righteous outcome that included church discipline which I hoped would lead to repentance. Most horrific is a public statement my brother made alleging molestation. I reported it to Calvary Chapel and directly to Chuck Smith and he didn’t do anything. You can read about my story and the experiences of many others at CalvaryChapelAbuse.com.”

  110. Hannah – Of course I asked for prayer for Alex and Tim. What they are going through right now is very emotionally and spiritually draining. Why would I not ask for prayer? The financial aspect had nothing to do with asking for prayers. Why would you say that?

  111. Kevin: I’m not going to take a statement made on a blog by an unknown poster and run with it. All that’s great about me being a mole, who knows, maybe I’m unconsciously, but you still haven’t answered my question. Why should I believe you? I can check out all of Alex’s and Julie Ann’s stories, and I see Alex has posted everywhere. He even has his store name on the .pdf and he isn’t afraid to show his identity and testify under oath. That enough should convince most people he is telling the truth.

    You’re making a VERY BIG, controversial statement towards Calvary Chapel; if they are resorting to cyber terrorism, this is DEFINITELY news that the congregation needs to know about. If it’s just some CC IT guy saying, “hey, we should do this…” that doesn’t count. But if it’s a group of pastors meeting behind close doors saying, “We can do this to bring down Alex’s blog…” NOW THAT’S NOT GOSSIP, THAT IS NEWS.

    BTW: if you’re burning to know who I am, just follow the hints I’ve been dropping. My name is Kathy, I followed this site from CC Green Valley (in Henderson, NV) Yelp page, I may have written some Yelp reviews…. I don’t hide behind my computer, but I don’t want to post url’s because that’s disrespectful to Alex and this blog should be about him, not me.

  112. Kathy @ #100 wrote:

    I was actually annoyed coming here because this thread was posted on CCGV’s Yelp page…

    Would you tell me if that is “Green Valley/ Las Vegas “?

    Thanks

    Yes Brian, it is.
    And you can read my original post to Alex here
    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?page_id=18

  113. One last thing, so no one thinks I’m a mole:

    If you bother to see my Yelp page, you’ll see my experiences with “church”. They haven’t been good, which is why I’m so drawn to this site.

    That should give you a good background on who I am, as I’ve disclosed a lot of personal information in those reviews. If anyone has other questions, email me at leekathy1090@yahoo.com or ask me on Yelp. I’m very open about sharing my church experiences.

    But this will be the last post about me… this site isn’t the place for that.

  114. Alex,
    My heart breaks when I hear your story. I believe you told me you tried to contact Don McClure. Has he ever contacted you back? Don McClure is doing session 5 in Calvary Chapel Philadelphia at the child safety conference in a month on the “Biblical mandate to care for and protect our children”. My take is if Don McClure is not willing to say anything about this lawsuit, contact you personally or otherwise be involved at all, I would say this conference is nothing more than a “dog and pony” show that is only there to give the appearance of godliness but lack the power there of. Don McClure, I ask you NOT to ignore this plea to help Alex and put in real measures to protect children. The stakes cannot be higher Don McClure and I am curious at your silence. I would suggest any in the Philadelphia area that are concerned about child safety and protection to go to this conference and bring to the attention of the leadership there the lawsuit against Alex and ask for some serious answers especially if there is a Q&A session.

  115. Andrew, I’ve reached out to Don McClure many times via FB and phone calls to his office, emails etc.

    He is Stone Walling me, just like Roger Wing of CCOF did.

    I think Don’s a good guy and means well, I don’t have any info or piles of testimonies that tell me otherwise. I think the effort at Calvary Chapel Philadelphia is a good one, even if it is a dog and pony show.

    I applaud the effort, even if the motives aren’t 100% pure and even if there were a PR element to it. I’m not going to criticize a conference that promotes treating your children the way God intended which is to love them, care for them, protect them and NOT ABUSE THEM.

    Hopefully there will be some sort of ability to see what they’re promoting/teaching at the conference, if it’s good, I’ll be happy to weigh in that it’s good, if it’s cult-like and/or bad teaching that will enable abuse (like teaching the Old Testament beat your kids stuff) then I’ll blast it.

  116. Today I appreciate this site very much. I appreciate reading the different perspectives of different people who have come out of being hurt by abusive behavior in religious organizations nationwide. Our experiences did not kill us but made us stronger. Hopefully what they have also done is helped us to see the difference between what God truly expects and outlines clearly in His Word and how man-made systems nationwide twist the Word to support the abuses we experienced.

    Oppression is never okay. Jesus came to set the captives free. Abuse is never okay. Jesus said that whatever someone does to the least of these, they do to Him. The only basis for Christianity is Christ. If His heart is not reflected in the actions of leaders and no attempt is made to repent of that fact, then how can they truly be viewed as Christian leaders? If Jesus said that those desiring to be great should be servants and a system interprets this to mean that no one can question the actions of their leadership do we not have the right to conclude that they are not following the pattern of Christ? If Paul could have questioned Peter’s hypocrisy in Galatians 2 then please tell me why the CC movement is exempt from being questioned? Peter didn’t hate Paul for his questioning but instead corrected his actions and we know that there was no love lost because Peter referred to Paul as “beloved” in 2 Peter 3:15.

    But the issues addressed here are even more severe than what the apostle Paul addressed in Galatians 2. The CC movement nationwide has severe issues that I have never seen in “secular” settings I have been part of, the only difference is that the recourse for remedy is not what would be expected in a “secular” setting! A “secular” setting would be more fair! But that is not because the world is more just than the true Church, it is because what we define as the church is not what the Bible defines as the true Church. We individually need to really dig into the Word so we can rightly divide between what reflects the heart of Christ and what does not.

    Multiple past convictions movement-wide of leaders who have hurt children should more than scream that the CC movement has a problem keeping those type of men away from its ranks. If CC nationwide wants to correct that, is preaching at the problem really a solid answer? Wouldn’t a better response be to ensure that justice was truly obtained by victims in the past and to ensure that justice is possible when new allegations arise? For instance wouldn’t an intent to correct this problem be expressed if leadership would step forward and truly assess the allegations of Alex and his brothers and bring resolution to that situation. Otherwise how does their preaching about offenses against children look?

    Well let me use an illustration: Imagine a physician and a police officer walking out of an ER into the parking lot of a hospital and finding a bleeding man screaming and claiming that the ambulance pulling out of the parking lot hit him. What would we think if the physician and police officer calmly walk back into the hospital and leave the bleeding man lying there? What would we think if the physician and the police officer then sit down to develop a conference on dealing with vehicular accidents with the physician discussing injuries and the poilce officer discussing legal recourse….all while the bleeding man is still in the parking lot in pain and is still pointing at the ambulance as it speeds away?

    It is well within my rights to ask if this is what Jesus would do and to search the Word for the answer and to read the story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10) and see, in context, what Jesus would really have to say….

  117. “I think you are taking things way too personal and are being way to critical towards Kathy and Julie Anne. Just my opinion. Please do not start up with me.”

    Linda, your tone is really offensive.
    You have spent much time here with domination of the threads and your own way of psychoanalysis and bullying. Now you have resorted to threats “Please don’t start up with me.
    Linda, I am done. Anytime anyone challenges you, you turn on them.

    Julie Anne:
    “Hannah – Of course I asked for prayer for Alex and Tim. What they are going through right now is very emotionally and spiritually draining. Why would I not ask for prayer? The financial aspect had nothing to do with asking for prayers. Why would you say that?”

    Julie Anne, I am not sure why my post isnt clear to you.
    You criticized me for asking for prayer.
    Why don’;t you understand that you asked for prayer for Alex on your blog, yet when I mentioned it here, you criticized that?
    Heck, I mentioned my mother is dying of cancer and no one even commented on that, or said they woudl be praying.
    So what is this blog about? Just anger and revenge against one another??

    We need to be careful that we are not doing the thing we are accusing others of.
    Will be praying from afar.
    Peace everyone.

  118. ..and I will pray for BG and for his wife. I am more concerned with reconciliation for this family then reforming an organization. Jesus never tried to change Judaism as it was in His time. He challenged the leadership, and he knew their hearts. It was His Father’s position to change the hearts. He went one-to-one and prayed for those who were his, and went after the one sheep who strayed.
    So I will pray for the lost sheep and let God deal with Calvary Chapels.

  119. Alex,
    My feelings are similar to yours. Lets hope it’s a good conference. I think the biggest issue that would raise concern for me is in the realm of mandatory reporting and who we should report to when we suspect abuse. How do you report an issue of concern about a Moses Model pastor when the primary person you are to report to is the Moses Model pastor?

    I attended one of the affiliate churches in the regional area closely connected to the Philly church where there was a convicted sex offender that was still working with children. Apparently the individual repented and his previous abuse was with a girl so the Moses Model leader considered it fine for him to work with boys. The individual also seemed to work as part of the security team at this church. I am not passing judgment on whether this individual truly repented or not. Apparently he did some jail time and he was honest about his past sins but I think this church may lack credibility to put a registered convicted sex offender in a security position and have him still work with children even if it’s just boys. It sends the wrong message. I don’t care how incredible your testimony is. Yes, he is forgiven in Christ if he has repented and yes he can go to church and fellowship. But should he be a security guy? Should he be working with children in any capacity at the church? What should the consequences be when you commit molestation against a minor even when there is sincere repentance?

  120. Andrew said, “I attended one of the affiliate churches in the regional area closely connected to the Philly church where there was a convicted sex offender that was still working with children. Apparently the individual repented and his previous abuse was with a girl so the Moses Model leader considered it fine for him to work with boys”

    That’s unacceptable. Can you email me the details so I can notify authorities and ask some questions of that CC?

  121. Alex,

    I’ll send you an email.

  122. I sincerely have been blessed by the comments of many people on here. Some people remind me to pray about the upcoming lawsuit and for Alex and his entire familly including the estranged part of his family and remind me that God can bring resolution and how amazing it will be if He does. Some people remind me of what the Word says about what Christian leaders and the Church should look like. Some remind me that the secular world is able to call things as they are. Some remind me that people who come out of spiritually manipulative situations need time to rebuild trust and even the damages to their faith. I have learned a lot on here and I am thankful for this forum.

  123. Hannah, I will pray for your mother. I am sorry that I did not see that and respond. That is a very sad situation for you and I’m sure a painfully scary thing for your mom to be going though. I hate cancer!

    I know everyone is very emotional right now and we have the right to be, but lets please stop hurting each other. I don’t think anyone’s is trying to intentionally hurt another, I just think that it’s hard to determine exactly what someones means and there intent unless they are a gifted writer who can communicate exactly what they are trying to. I know I am not good at this at all.

    I have missed out on many friendships and messed up a few because of how I have become aggressively guarded since the betrayal by BG and his minions.

    So please, lets not miss out on the opportunity to help one another by being so quick to answer another victims misstep. Lets try to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Lets try to expect the best and hold out judgement until we have seen a clear path of bad attitude and purposeful attacks. Please

  124. Hannah said: Julie Anne, I am not sure why my post isnt clear to you.
    You criticized me for asking for prayer.
    Why don’;t you understand that you asked for prayer for Alex on your blog, yet when I mentioned it here, you criticized that?

    First off, please know my heart. My heart is for those who have been hurt by spiritual abuse and I see this blog as a pivotal place for learning about what they experienced and connecting with others who share similar storoies. I know my words may be strong, but please understand my heart. We are talking about souls here.

    I did not criticize you for asking for prayer, but for complaining about the lack of prayers on the prayer thread. That’s a big difference, Hannah. When I asked for prayer on my blog, it wasn’t asking people to post their prayers publicly. It was an invitation to pray if they felt moved to pray. I didn’t tell them to post their prayers in the comments – it was an understood: pray if you feel led. The tone I felt from your response about not praying on the prayer thread was reprimanding. Isn’t prayer personal? Why would you want to interfere with that?

    Hannah concluded with: We need to be careful that we are not doing the thing we are accusing others of.

    This feels like the same condescending tone, Hannah. Do you know the thoughts and motives of others? Many of us left spiritually abusive environments where pastors assumed the thoughts and motives of us. They used this method to control us. I’m not feeling the love and grace in your responses, Hannah. Sorry, but if this is to be a safe place for those who have been hurt by spiritual abuse, guilting/shaming people about their prayer life – about when and where they should be praying. – is not right. For some, it has taken an incredible amount of strength to even post a comment here. They don’t need to feel pushed into doing something they don’t want to do. That kind of stuff triggers people and makes them not want to come back.

    I’m telling you the truth – - this site can be life-changing for many and it must remain a safe place speaking the truth.

  125. “..and I will pray for BG and for his wife. I am more concerned with reconciliation for this family then reforming an organization. Jesus never tried to change Judaism as it was in His time. He challenged the leadership, and he knew their hearts. It was His Father’s position to change the hearts. He went one-to-one and prayed for those who were his, and went after the one sheep who strayed.
    So I will pray for the lost sheep and let God deal with Calvary Chapels.”

    Amen to that!!

  126. “..and I will pray for BG and for his wife. I am more concerned with reconciliation for this family then reforming an organization. Jesus never tried to change Judaism as it was in His time. He challenged the leadership, and he knew their hearts. It was His Father’s position to change the hearts. He went one-to-one and prayed for those who were his, and went after the one sheep who strayed.
    So I will pray for the lost sheep and let God deal with Calvary Chapels.”

    The Calvary Chapels of the World will likely Wax worse in these perilous times. Instead of Reformation for this apostate Church Organizartion Just come out of her

    Revelation 18:4-”And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.”

  127. Overly Concerned and Not Alone – - your recent comments above were so good. Thank you!

  128. All the Reforms in the wrold won’t chnaage Calvary Chapel. Look at the Cathoilic Church and how intricately they are structured yet the abuse in that Harlot system was atrocious.

  129. I agree with Solomon Rodriguez.

    Not Alone, if what you said: ( ” So please, lets not miss out on the opportunity to help one another by being so quick to answer another victims misstep. Lets try to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Lets try to expect the best and hold out judgement until we have seen a clear path of bad attitude and purposeful attacks. Please”….)

    was geared towards me (obviously Julie Anne thanked you), and you have not seen the attack towards me, I have no problem with leaving this blog. Surely you know that way before Julie Anne became a part here, I was here fololowing and faithfully praying for this entire situation. For someone to come on here, and after 2 months attempt to “explain” what the purpose of this blog is to me, is very condescending to me, and makes me out to be an uneducated fool who has no understanding of the situation, has obviously not read a thing I have posted in the last 2 years. And is it asking too much for other Christians to pray and fast for the situation? Jesus said “when you fast”? Is that so foreign to everyone that I should be reprimanded for asking for support for this? Just because this is a place where a lawsuit is going on, this isn’t a place for prayer and fasting? (Jlo)

    So, at this point in time, since there appears to be so much aggression toward “the cause”, I will continue to pray that God intercedes, since a lawsuit would not be His first approach at reconciliation. I am praying that BG’s heart would be softened and that the Holy Spirit would speak to his heart, bring to mind all that has happened. I have been here long enough to know what Alex’s heart is. I have read it. I have heard it in his voice. HE loves his mother and he wants her back in his life. No lawsuit will change that. I have listened to all the radios shows at Remnant..and because I care deeply about someone I have never even met, I have been up to date with everything that has gone on, contrary to what Julie Anne may believe. Those in battle want others to battle, and I pray it doesnt come to that. I will fast and pray for a move of God on BG and his wife. There are 2 dynamics going on here. There is Calvary Chapel reform and there is a family in crisis.

    So I will leave gracefully, and continue to pray for reconciliation for this family on my own.
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here and be a partof this blog Alex. You know my heart is to see you reconciled with your mom. I hope she reads here and knows that someone here is praying for her. God Bless.

  130. Solomon @ 128 – I am afraid you may be right. I do not believe reform will ever happen at calvary chapel because the purpose of its existence is as follows:

    1) They seek to exist as a corporation
    2) They seek to teach the bible simply

    Number 1 seemingly trumps number 2 in most modern churches today (not singling out Calvary). Preserving the ‘brand & building’ is “more important” than staying true to the gospel & making sacrifices where needed to further God’s church.

    I wonder if the modern church would ever sacrifice ‘comforts’ if it mean furthering God’s kingdom instead of their own?

  131. Steve said, “I wonder if the modern church would ever sacrifice ‘comforts’ if it mean furthering God’s kingdom instead of their own?”

    My guess is not too many in CC, especially the bigger the franchisee.

    I’d bet many of the CC Pastors that have the big churches wouldn’t pastor if they didn’t get paid to do it.

  132. I’ve never read in Scripture that we are not to forgive until someone truly repents for the wrongs they have done us. If that were the case, we would personally determine how “sorry” someone has to be, just what that repentance must look like, and how often we must forgive before we offer the gift of forgiveness. Life can be very painful, and we cannot exact retribution to make it all better. We all are sinners, we are not perfect, and we will continue to make mistakes until we are taken home to be with the Lord, and only then will we be perfected. Please read Luke 6:37-38, and also Luke 11: 2-4. We must pray for all truth to be out that would result in glory to God, whether it be good for the parties involved or not. However, it is not for us to judge, but rather the courts. Remember the world and the times in which we live. I do know for a fact, not one person alive on this earth will live a happy, productive and Godly life unless each one forgives the other for actual and perceived injuries, and cries out not only for forgiveness but mercy and grace from God. We also need empowerment from the Holy Spirit to offer forgiveness where none is asked for. My prayers are with the family and the Body of Christ. This is my first and last visit on this site; I see judgement and anger and animosity being built message by message. It will prove to be destructive to the Body of Christ and His Name.

  133. Andrew,

    Wow! In the real world this sexual predator, no matter what time he did in jail or prison, he would not be permitted to work with or around children. The likelihood of reoffending are too high. This is not being harsh, this is the reality of the psychological makeup of a predator. It is ingrained and his ability to be a chameleon to win the favor of another should always be a reminder to others that a child’s life is far to precious to risk by finding out if this person has or has not reformed.

    As for the conference, I’d be interested in who they have doing the training. That is, if there is training. Or is this a conference to bring people together to establish a position, rather than to set policy and procedures in place. Even then training takes more than a few hours. Understanding and identifying abuse, intervention, and the church discipline process is a huge undertaking. But once organized, it can increase the safety and welfare for the entire church as well as the community at large.

    Hannah, it wasn’t a threat. I just don’t care to go back and forth with you on something that you fail to see but rather project upon others. So, rather than to wrestle with you, I drew my boundary with you. Apparently, you don’t get it.

  134. merry collop:

    Luke 17:3 Pay attention to yourselves! “IF” your brother sins, rebuke him, and “IF” he repents, forgive him

    Luke 17:4 and “IF” he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I REPENT,’ you must forgive him.”

  135. merry collop, what do you make of those verses I cited above? Why the “ifs” and “repents”?

  136. Now assuming the forgiveness is unconditional, what does “forgiveness” look like? A lawsuit against your step-son and son?

  137. #119 – - -This is a very troubling situation. In general, convicted sex offenders have clear boundaries on where they can be in public and most of the time they must not be in an area where children congregate. I’m sure these rules vary from state to state, but in a case like this where you know a sex offender is in working closely with children, it is perfectly appropriate to notify authority to report this. Let them check it out. This will be good because it will also give the CC leaders a reality check as to the severity of these kinds of situations.

    Anybody can report – it just takes a phone call and your identity is held completely confidential.

  138. Completely different area

  139. Actually, you can make an anonymoous call anywhere in the United States to report a possilbe child or dependent/elderly adult abuse situation.

    In my own training and clinical experience, on occasion a client will share that such a situation exists and it has to do with persons outside of the state the he or she resides. As a mandated reporter, I would be require to contact the authority in that state to make them aware. They must take the report and then follow up. Trouble is, there are so many reports being taken on a daily basis, they have to prioritize them according to levels of endangerment. I know I have always received a follow up call back from their Protective Service Agency. In counseling with a client, I also let them know they can do the same, anonymously as well, but emphasize it would be more helpful if a name is given.

  140. Steve said:

    “I wonder if the modern church would ever sacrifice ‘comforts’ if it mean furthering God’s kingdom instead of their own?”

    Highly unlikely

  141. Linda said:

    “Hannah, it wasn’t a threat. I just don’t care to go back and forth with you on something that you fail to see but rather project upon others. So, rather than to wrestle with you, I drew my boundary with you. Apparently, you don’t get it.”

    You seem to be rather harsh with people when they disagree with you on something. There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. I agree with Hannah that you tend to turn on people when they challenge you or your thinking. This is a bullying ploy simply put.

  142. Thanks for moderating my comment—-seriously.

  143. Solomon,

    She also accused me of being “merry collup” anonymously, but you can’t read about that accusation because in her defense, someone took that post off . I don’t know why. It should have stayed so everyone could have seen that one.

  144. Solomon, it is no secret that you and Hannah are often of the same mindset. It is also no secret that when I see something as being so obvious I will call it as I see it. When something has been said over and over again and the person is not willing to be a bit more flexible or open in their thinking, then it become unproductive to continue on with them. First it was Kathy, then it was Julia Anne, then it was me. And now, you are riding on the hem of Hannah’s skirt to do what?

    Like I suggested read back on the comments we each made under the stream made in September. It is clear that you would like to do away with “organized” churches and it is clear that for you a pastor should have little, or no say so when it comes to your marriage. But what is not clear is how it is relevant to what Alex and others are trying to accomplish when it comes to CC leadership and the body of Christ that we were once very much a part.

  145. Andrew, I just looked over the brochure of the Child Safety Conference that you mentioned being held in Philadelphia, PA.

    I hope they have on-going training. The conference appears to be a giant step in the right direction. Now if they could also do the same thing regarding domestic violence and also framed these intervention in the context of church discipline and a ministry of reconciliation (when possible).

    Alex, would be good as well as to send something that would drive home the reality that domestic violence and child abuse have been such a part of CC. Referring to your next blog concerning playing a positive activist role in this.

    Can’t help but believe your site had a huge part in this conference being scheduled. I wonder if Pastor’s Jeff’s Letter to Pastor also made an impact. By His Spirit, saith the Lord. So, thank you Father for using this site to help your church to protect the weak, the vulnerable, the blind, and the deaf. Thank you for free speech and thank you for the country that we were born in that has a Constitution that guarantees our rights, no matter who we are or are not. Thank you, Jesus for letting us know that in You, we are free. No matter what gender or ethnic or economic status we might be.

    http://www.ccphilly.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/child-safety-conference-flyer.pdf

  146. In my opinion, Bob’s lawsuit may very well be retaliation for reporting the abuses.

  147. Linda, I think the conference is a great step in the right direction but and I hope the pastors in this region that seem to be struggling with narcisim, nepotism, egotism and allow convicted sex offenders to work with children and also invite unrepentant adulters to speak from the pulpit would attend in my humble opinion. Maybe they could learn something and repent.

    http://christiannews.net/2012/10/19/church-postpones-service-with-dinesh-dsouza-following-media-storm-over-extramarital-relationship/

  148. Alex wrote: “Hopefully there will be some sort of ability to see what they’re promoting/teaching at the conference, if it’s good, I’ll be happy to weigh in that it’s good, if it’s cult-like and/or bad teaching that will enable abuse (like teaching the Old Testament beat your kids stuff) then I’ll blast it.”

    You can pre-order the DVDs and CDs from the conference but I am hoping they offer this free as a download from the website. The conference cost is $10 and there is no mention that lunch is being offered so I am not sure where the cost is coming from. Usually these things are offered for free like their missions conference was. Hopefully any money raised can go to sexual abuse victims at CC.

  149. Linda @ 133 wrote: “Wow! In the real world this sexual predator, no matter what time he did in jail or prison, he would not be permitted to work with or around children.”

    This is the real world Linda. It just happens to be a church that has church discipline turned around on its nose and can’t see the forest through the trees. I believe the lack of discernment stems directly from the Moses Model and the only thing that will get you put under church discipline is opposing the Moses pastor directly and the only thing that will ever get you reconciled is complete allegiance to the Moses pastor. That is just the way it works in this church. .

  150. Andrew, @ 150

    I know Andrew, I was attempting to drive home how much churches are in the dark concerning these things for the exact reason you mentioned. 6th grade education does not permit you to go beyond rote memory. You just never graduate from having someone think for you and as long as you mimic behaviors, thoughts and opinion, you get a gold star for the day.

  151. Linda, Unfortunately the consequences are much more serious than getting a gold star or smiley sticker or having it removed for the day. The stakes can not get any higher and unfortunately I don’t see much movement away from the cult-like Moses Model leadership in most Calvary Chapels.

  152. Andrew, I think that a lot of people grow up experiencing abuse but never received any intervention to help them heal from these traumas. I also think that people have come out of a lot of dysfunctional families and what they have experienced seems very normal to them. Being so, there is a sense of not knowing what abuse is or how it is defined. We hear someone scream and we chalk it up as being due to an argument. We reason it out and say to ourselves, everyone gets stressed from time to time and tempers flare, children can be difficult, and sometimes someone cannot hold their liquor or temer. So in turn, our idea of what constitutes abuse becomes vague and undefined, then written off as family or marital affair not to be intruded upon except for the most extreme cases. But even them the line for “extreme” becomes fuzzy and we throw up our hands to wait until a life is destroyed or taken before we think how we could have done something much earlier to circumvent this. If we had just known. The reality, we did know but because of being desensitize to it, we minimize it and made it none of our business instead. That is why training is so important because there are clear ways to define and to identify such behavior and there are clear ways to support the victim while holding the offender to an account and hopefully worked towards reconcilation and reunification.

    You would be amazed to hear the number of people I have spoken to in groups and seminars that shared how surprise they were to find out they were being abusive and controlling towards someone that they cared about but didn’t know how else to deal or be in relationships with. I think the Mose’s Model enables and reinforces this type of thinking.

  153. Andrew – Re: #149 – - I don’t know much about the Moses Model, but clearly it is a pattern among narcissist pastors. The pastorate draws people who desire to be in a position of authority. Their charm and engaging personalities draw people in quickly. They get a fan club which becomes their inner circle, protecting them, feeding his ego, covering up his mistakes, but they are rewarded, so they stay. It’s all about him and he leaves a path of destruction, abuse, hurt among people who cross his path or question him. The ones who are not in the inner circle, but don’t rock the boat will usually be fine. Some may have drunk the Kool-Aid and are quietly enduring. Others sense the conflict, but don’t want to cause waves and so they remain silent and trapped.

  154. Linda, The Moses Model definately enables this type of abuse especially for those that are prone to abuse others. The really scarey part is that these Moses Model pastors are getting quite experienced in how to deal with conflict and how to spin everything their way to manipulate the masses. They will say things like “leaders deserve the benefit of the doubt”. You know what this means to someone who has a beef with a pastor? It means you DON’T deserve the benefit of the doubt and you will be treated as such. How can the possibility of reporting abuse, crimes and sexual molestation allegations against those in leadership ever be taken seriously when the leadership always gets the benefit of the doubt? Calvary Chapel is a club of like minded Moses Model pastors who get their dove symbol as their membership badge and the loyalty is amazing. Rule number one is you don’t critisize a fellow member of your club because to do so would open yourself up to criticism back to you which is the biggest fear in all of Calvary Chapel. The Moses model is unbiblical and if Calvary Chapel doesn’t see it, I believe they will have a very long and steep fall down into the annals of church history.

  155. Andrew, I am all too aware of the consequences as any person is that have been victimized due to this system and the abuse and betrayals that is covered up, thus being permitted to continue. Because of the insidious manipulations that goes on the victim is frequently not believed when it is taking place, the damage is horrendous, but few choose to see it and the perpetrator is able and enabled to make it look as if it is something other than what it really is. The Mose’s model is a perfect construct to attract abusers and to enable them to take on leadership roles that plays into their need for control, power, and attention while hiding behind a veneer of a false image. Accountability is used only to manipulate others into falling in line but not to be used as way to address the very structure that caters to things that permits the sheeps to be slaughtered by wolves, goats, liars, theives, molestors, adulterers, and so many other things. Andrew, we know all of this and so that is why this case of Alex and Tim is so important. We know why we are on this site contributing our own experience to attest to these things, to warn and to hopefully caused by the conviction of the Holy Spirit to take place in a church we all once loved and fellowhshipped in.

  156. Andrew, @155

    “The Moses model is unbiblical and if Calvary Chapel doesn’t see it, I believe they will have a very long and steep fall down into the annals of church history.

    IMO opinion that would be biblical. I just hope it is not a prophecy yet to be fulfilled.

  157. Lack of accountability attracts and breeds Narcissists. Control, attention, adulation, and adoration are the key ingredients of narcissitic supply that is readily available whe assuming a leadership role in any church. But fear of those who they are able to recruit is the glue that holds it all together.

  158. Andrew, I have been following the press on D’ Sousa. It is a mockery of all that is holy and righteous. This is a perfect example what we have been talking about. To postpone until he has gained an unbilbical divorce, which means there has not been any repentance. And then to permit his to speak after he has entered into an adulteress marriage is not following biblical mandates either.

    D’ Sousa is not right in what he has done. What more what kind of discernment and words of widsom can he offer to anyone. According to the report, he met this young girl just 3 months ago, but she’s the love of his life. What was his wife? An object to bare his children? In the press releases it states he didn’t know it was wrong to be engaged while still married. It also stated that part of his justification was he had already been separated, that is not legally, but not living in the same resident for the past 2 years, which I guess that’s supposed to legitimize his pursuing this woman instead of his wife?

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I would be tempted to boycott his appearance at my church, if he was to speak there. Because if I did not, then my silence would be assenting to it instead and that would be joining his in his sin against his wife and the Lord. Funny how as far as I know CC in San Diego didn’t have a sit down with him during the 2 years he was separated or that he didn’t speak with them concerning his separation with his wife. Or that they did not go to him. He was supposedly in attendance 8 of the 10 years prior to accepting the position of President at King’s college.

    On top of this he has the audacity of throwing stones at those who held him to an account and exposing this. What in the world would anyone have to gain by listening to him on anything. It certainly does not speak well for those that would engage him in such an activity on behalf of the flock. It clearly sends a message that adultery is okay because once you repented you can still remain in an adulteress marriage and resume your former honor and privileges you had while tramping around and making people think you were one thing when you were quite something else.

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

    13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    Then, with an emphasis on verse 9-10:

    1 Corinthians 6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

    2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

    5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

    6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

    7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

    8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

    13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

    14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

    16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

    19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

  159. Julianne, I know you have been following the SGM news. I think their situation is actually quite different than what we have at Calvary Chapel. I think Calvary Chapel is much more dangerous simple because the Moses Model is actually incorporated into the distinctives that Chuck Smith himself wrote. Basically these pastors seem to be accountable to no one but God himself. This seems to be part of the DNA of Calvary Chapel and it will be very difficult to peirce the viel that has been set up. I believe what Alex has attempted to do is a start but all you need to do is look at Chuck Smith’s comments and you can surmize that Calvary Chapel has a strategy to discredit abuse happening within their affiliate churches instead of trying to apologize. Why did Chuck Smith need his attorney Janet carter with him when he met with Alex? I don’t believe This meeting was ever motivated to help Alex but rather gather information and discredit him.

  160. Linda wrote: “Andrew, I have been following the press on D’ Sousa. It is a mockery of all that is holy and righteous. This is a perfect example what we have been talking about. To postpone until he has gained an unbilbical divorce, which means there has not been any repentance. And then to permit his to speak after he has entered into an adulteress marriage is not following biblical mandates either”.

    Bob Guaglione who wrote this recently bragged in one of his sermons mentioning that all his messages are taped. Well this one wasn’t and I wonder why? If any one cares to investigate more on this story I think it is an interesting news story itself that this pastor’s daugher is on staff at CCDelco, is a graduate of King’s college and attended when Dinesh D’ Sousa was president and is probably close to the same age as Dinesh’s girlfriend. What kind of example do you think he has just set for his daughter, his employee and his church by giving Dinesh a complete pass on adultery like this? In my humble opinion its disgusting.

  161. Andrew,

    Apparently there wasn’t one, but 3 woman and 2 he was also engaged.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219974/Dinesh-DSouza-Conservative-pundit-resigns-Kings-College-New-York-amid-infidelity-claims.html

    I think he has issues and cannot be trusted to tell the truth on any matter. To have him speak on any occasion at any CC is a direct slap in the face against his wife, the body of Christ, and all that is holy and right before the Lord.

  162. The Dinesh D’Souza stuff doesn’t look good, unfortunately. Yikes.

  163. I appreciate the support that is coming in. Thank you.

    I also wanted to encourage the Group, that while this is trying and difficult, there is much information and documentation that has not been divulged yet.

    I knew there was the possibility that Chuck Smith, Roger Wing and others from Calvary Chapel that I shared testimonies and information with could pass the info along to Bob so he could prepare…it’s possible.

    There is a lot of info and documentation I didn’t present that supports my belief in the stuff I’ve presented publicly…and Bob doesn’t know what it is and doesn’t know what form it is in. I’ll just leave it at that.

    I still need the support and encouragement, it’s still a steep mountain to climb and there are no guarantees in the court process…but I didn’t want you all to get too discouraged, there is hope.

  164. Alex:

    Keep your chin up. If you get a little low or worried, just listen to this encouraging song. It does wonders for me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVewWbeBiY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  165. Hiym, you twerp.

    Alex has serious stuff on his mind and your comments are not appreciated by most here, dude. For instance, haven’t you read what he is saying and his concerns about D’Souza? Aside from writing some great marching songs, D’Souza in some deep poop.

  166. Thanks Mr. Wright, I love that song, especially as done by Sinatra.

    Somehow, I’m still dumb enough to think I’ll move the rubber tree plant :-)

    I have faith it’ll all come together

  167. C’mon Sheck, don’t cyberbully Hiyam, he’s a good chap.

  168. D’Souza might be right about obama being an anti-colonialist, but DD certainly seems to be an anti-one-womanalist :-)

  169.    I’m praying for you and Amy, for clarity in decision-making, for provision of legal/media/financial support, and for strength to handle the day-to-day logistics of normal family life. 

  170. Funny about D’ Souze saying the reaction he hoped to get from people viewing the Obama 2012 was to say to themselves that Obama is not the person they thought he was and then said that this exposure of who he ( D’ Souza)really is was a conspiracy to undermine and to destroy him. Seems to me, he did it all by himself. Given all the lies and half truths, along with the excuses while discounting his entire marriage, and pointing the finger at everyone else for his “poor judgment,” lends very little creditablily regarding the hypothesis he created regarding Obama. If this same type of defense he has used to single handedly corrupt the truth and thinking that people are that stupid then it stands to reason he has used this throughout the course of his career as a opportunist to make a name for himself.

    IMO it drives home just how easy people can be taken in if you play on their fears and vulnerabilites, while making a few millions as well. And for what? It’s dispicable and disgusting to say it nicely.

    Has anyone read anything on who funded this documentary? The only information I’ve come up with is that it was funded by 20 wealthy Christian businessmen, I think in the Southern California area. But because it was a “political” classified media tool, they were not require to disclose names. What more, when being shown in churches, it was referred to as a “screening” thereby bypassing the law that churches are not allowed to lobby for candidates. Well, the joke is on them, isn’t Mr. D’ Souza—You fooled us all.

  171. Correction: “But because it was NOT a “political” classified . . . “

  172. @166

    ROTFLOL I used to love watching the movies they made about him.

  173. Mr Wright, what a wonderful and lovely uplifting song. Thanks for sharing it.

    Alex, you are doing just fine. Rubber trees, dams, and anything else that might be put in your way—-Remember, not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. Just remember BG is trying to control this case in such a way that does not permit you to do anything except to fight against his defamation claim and not allow this to become any bigger than just that. So I am praying that God brings the legal eagles to help you to soar far beyond in exposing all that you tried to do with out the help of the leadership that should have done this in the first place.

    Mr. Scheckstein, you are way too funny. “Poop”

  174. Clarification: “leadership that should have helped you to do this in the first place.

  175. Alex, Keep us up to date on the anti-SLAPP aspects of this case. Seems like from what I saw of the Hanegraaff/CRI vs Alnor, this feels like a slam dunk example of Anti-SLAPP.

  176. Doug, this is certainly a slam dunk. True statements or opinions do not equate with defamation. We all have the right to share our opinions and true facts publicly – that is protected speech in USA.

  177. Watch this for yourselves. I especially invite the pastors out there to view this. To my knowledge, no one I am aware of has ever approached Matthew 18 with a ‘lynch mob’ mentality. If you have ever been crushed as a Christian by this man’s actions toward you, can you describe what specific actions he has taken to reconcile with you? I think the assumption is that many of you have never first gone to him alone, then with a few others, with the intent to rebuild the relationship. Is that true? Have you found him humble and welcoming, with the intent to lay out all the facts to be established so that true reconciliation could be possible? Has he ever apologized to you? He knows the text well. Is he characterizing the circumstances honestly in terms of your own experience with him? Watch this first before replying: http://www.ccvisalia.com/index.php?option=com_preachit&tmpl=component&id=199:matthew-18&view=videopopup

  178. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins. We are to forgive others as our Father has forgiven us. Jesus has told us to Repent and believe. He told the woman caught in the act of adultery that her sins were forgiven her and to go and sin no more, and the man John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

    Luke 17:3 NIV

    So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

    http://bible.cc/luke/17-3.htm

  179. BG has this twisted in order to avoid being held to an account publicly and to exercise church discipline in order to protect the victim, the church, and to effectivel deal with such who refuses to humble themselves, and make the amends necessary to assure the victim(s) will not be abuse or offended again. “Humiliation” is not a factor here. What is a factor and the primary factor is that the victim is able to be safe and protected from being harmed further and that the church is protected—-not the consequences of having done the offense in the first place. “Humiliated, ” comes from having your evil deeds exposed to the entire congregation, as it should be when one refuses to confess all that was involved in the betrayal and abuse committed. A simple, I’m sorry is so superficial. When placing an emphasis on the offender being “humiliated,” it is putting importance of the feelings of the offender than on he or she, or they who have been wronged. What more, it is turning the table and now making the victim responsible for the consequences that are a part of being exposed and held to an account. That would be considered secondary abuse and a form of revictimization by proxy in cases, particularly when it has to do with spousal and child abuse, adultery, and rape. BG put an entire new spin on these scriptures. Excuse me, but the harm he is doing by teaching this is more than one can possibly imagine, unless you have been there. It actually fosters further abuse.

  180. WA-
    Can you give us a summary? It’s challenging to sit here 45 minutes to listen. I have heard many of his sermons, and it may be the monotony.. or maybe in light of what is going on…..just can’t do it. But I am continuing to pray for him.
    Thanks

  181. I dedicate this song from Bob Grenier’s youth to him – this one will take you back.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2JIexhpMNs

  182. I’ve don’t think I’ve ever heard this verson on Matthew 18 taught quite the way BG did this. I would recommend everyone listen to it as there are so many errors in his teaching and all to avoid “humiliating” the offender, bringing another with you “to keep the peace” rather to bear witness, and to avoid informing the congregation, but rather keep between the offender, victim (s) and leadership only to spare the perpetrator/offender from the consequences of any humiliation that might be felt as a result of their sin being exposed to the body of believers. Forgiveness is a mandate, even if they don’t repent and continue in their sin. Oh, and it’s his opinion there are no guardian angels for children. On the forgiveness, he did point out that forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. Said something about instead of bringing a lynch mob to hold the person to an account, the people bearing witness should just forgive them and let it go and just have nothing to do with that person. The understanding I got was the leadership would minister to the offener while I guess they would continue in fellowship with the church even in their unrepentant state. Kept repeating, for those offended or those who came with the offened to just forgive them and move on, then talksed about treating it as if never happened. Hmmm.

  183. Linda.

    There is much error in the teaching of judging, repenting, forgiveness, church disciple in cc in my opinion. and it seems to give the offender the easy road and make the offended/harmed carry the the burden. As you say much much damage has and is being done.

    Someday soon hopefully I will be able to share some of my experiences with their way of thinking. Let me just say that I was involved with a “pastor” who had such a good spin on his many many profound and life altering offenses that all he had to say was. forgive me. and it didn’t matter if he had just raped you, you “had”, to forgive. And let me add when he said forgive me, what he was saying was forgive me that you are angry, upset etc., not that he repented or admitted. Just forgive me that you are upset. That was his repentance.

  184. And Linda,

    We all have our gifts and I do not want to before the God I serve minimize my gifts because there have been times where they have blown me away…however…. boy do I wish I could be the wordsmith you are. the way you can break something down. All I can say is…You go God!

  185. Wide Awake-

    I listened to the sermon.
    Since you may be more closely involved in the situation, it would be interesting to hear what you got out of it, because since I do not know BG or have firsthand knowledge of the situation, hard to figure out the purpoise of this message.
    Do people know theres a lawsuit?
    Are they totally in the dark?
    How does this instruction coincide with his lawsuit against Alex?
    Why isnt he using the real life situation instead of hypotheticals?
    Do people think it odd if they know whats goign on to be given this mesasge without relaly laying out eho he is talking about and if he is on the side of the one needing forgiveness or Alex is??
    …. struggling trying to understand his perspective..which is impossible because I dont know if he is preaching tot he choir or himself. So when he speaks, and is instructing, is it to himself or to Alex?

    One thing stood out…. was when he spoke of others wanting to come to the church and publicly humiliate a person needing confronting. Not sure I liked his response “There’s a door right there, don’t get mad, just leave”, but when he said “Have you seen this? Oh, so you only read about this in a book”? (maybe he meant a blog….)…

    I think in the past I have taken sides with Alex, and I need to repent of this because I have not lived in his house, I do not know his father. My support in being here is for those who have been abused by a Calvary Chapel, because that is what I have firsthand knowledge about in my own life. But it is true that we only know Alex’s side. So I am wondering why Mr. Genier does not come on here and set us straight. Why let us have only one side.

    As I was listening I also felt that perhaps BG believed that he has asked for forgiveness and it was not accepted. So much talk abotu reconciliation, and not retaliateion. How does the lawsuit and monetary damages fit into this?

    What I am not certain about is when he says “You can avoid people and pray for them”. “People do that for me all the time”. What?? What does he mean by this?
    Also, as if giving an example . He says/// “Are you angry? someone says to him….”Would you like to hear about it Bob”? “No, I ‘ve got my own issues , thank you”.
    I’ll leave it at that.

    I hope Alex comes on and gives his perspective.It’s not my business, but the message was very disturbing.

  186. Alex-I just made a long post about the sermon and it seems to have been lost in cyberspace. Very odd.

  187. Thank, Olivia

    Being born as a deaf child, we see beyond the words sometimes. Being so, let me assure you this gift as you described it to be is mostly certainly that of the Lord. I take it and the ability to speak, as hearing people do seriously, for I know from who these things are given.

    Overly Concerned —- my spirit once again bears witness to what you shared.
    Philippians 1:21-23
    Gal 2:20

    http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/362

  188. The part I agree with is that the focus of Matthew 18 is to restore relationships. Every true believer will humbly do what they can to rebuild a broken relationship. They won’t be flippant about it. They won’t treat it in a superficial way. They won’t simply dismiss the wounded parties. They not only will follow Jesus’ command to forgive several times over, they will work diligently, and with great perseverance, to find what has caused the breach between themselves and the other person(s), and get the facts laid out to fully consider before any conclusions are drawn. It could go like this, ” What is it specifically that you believe I did to you in a sinful way? What is your rationale for it being sin? How have my actions affected you spiritually and emotionally? ” “Ok, sorry we cannot come to agreement on this but why not have a few others in leadership listen in on this to see if they can see a way for us to resolve this?” This of course, assumes that the Church leader follows the scripture he teaches, and functions from a loving and humble position. Matthew 18 gives guidance in how to proceed when the circumstances are not favorable to reconciliation. As the ‘court of appeals’ increase, the intent is always to restore, never to crush, silence, dismiss, lynch, or whatever.

    Alex has followed the guidance of scripture, and this could have been resolved years ago but it appears that someone refused to allow Matthew 18 to apply to themselves. The assumption is that the Senior Pastor either does not sin, or he is about the teaching of scripture because he is an exalted messenger of God.

  189. Hannah, the spam filter got you for some reason.

    I’ll try to stomach Bob’s garbage and respond to him speaking at this from his public Bully Pulpit (which has been his M.O. over the years).

  190. WA-

    Sorry for the many typos on my last.
    So do you thiink the congregation knows whats going on and he is defending himself?
    Why give this message?

  191. Alex,

    You might want to see my last post to desensitize yourself. A slight twist of words here and there to conditioned the audience for things to come is what kept running through my mind as I listened. I was even suspicious of the use of his sniffles as a way to distract to poised himself in readitness for the next point he was building upon the former.

    What gets me the most is more emphasis on protecting the offender was given than the person who had been harm and the body of Christ that is now in harm’s way given what he was teaching.

  192. Alex, that would be at: Linda Pappas on Dealing with child abuse, spousal abuse, molestation in the church…and a proper Jesus Model of spiritual leadership: “Abuse and Pastors: An Open Letter from a Pastor to Pastors”

  193. Hannah, we do have the testimony of 2 of Alex’s brothers and a neighbor on this site, alone, just to speak to seeing the abuse first hand. Then there are those who worked at the church and were abused, themselves, by Bob who post here such as Tina. The first hand witnesses to Alex’s abuse and/or their own abuse are numerous and that’s before we even get into the spiritual abuse that others experienced and have documented such as the lawsuits about the girl who was sexually abused by her step-father and Bob told her not to tell anyone. etc….

    So based on this preponderance of witnesses we can accept Alex’s accusation against this elder/pastor.

    I think Bob would like people to come on here and read a thread quickly (without reading the mass of info on this blog that would take a great deal of time,) and walk away thinking they can’t know so they won’t do anything. But they can know. The info is here. Many of the witnesses are named, or have spoken themselves. Many of the stories have been documented and corroborated. If this were not so, I would not be here.

  194. And let’s not forget that Chuck Smith, in the presence of witnesses, said that based on the evidence presented to him that he believes Alex’s accusations against Bob to be true, as well.

  195. Wow, Linda! I had no idea you were deaf. I spent time in the deaf community during college and never met anyone who could communicate as well as you. Amazing!

  196. Hannah…cannot speak for the CCV congregation. Those who know the background, will have to speak for themselves. I am certain if they do speak, they can establish that many have attempted to approach the leadership in the proper biblical way only to be thwarted. This blog has carefully, and correctly characterized the government structure of a normal CC, and why that structure ultimately can lead to a problem you have witnessed develop here. There is no court of appeals for a Senior Pastor within the movement. None.

  197. I some how couldn’t download it to listen, which is fine by me. But here is my thought and opinion, if you abused your sons as children and one alledges you sexually abused him, you should NOT be a pastor at all or anywhere. Is there forgiveness? YES! But you are not equipt to lead others spiritually. Forgiveness and accountabily are two totally different things.

  198. AMEN Tina! That is one of the big points.

    Bob’s in Positions of Trust, Pastor, Police Chaplain etc. He has a level of Trust through his Positions in our society…trust he shouldn’t have.

    Do you want Bob Grenier giving counsel to Domestic Abuse victims in Visalia as an official representative of the Visalia Police Department?

    Apparently so…b/c they keep him in that Position and don’t launch a full investigation (that I’m aware of, at least not the VPD) to talk to Paul about his report of Molestation and to talk to many others about the Child Abuse.

    Just b/c the Statute of Limitations is up on the Child Abuse we reported doesn’t mean it’s OK and doesn’t mean it didn’t happen at a criminal level. It did happen. It was as bad as I (and my brothers) have described.

    Then you’ve got all the testimonies of financial impropriety and Paul’s testimony of Bob spending church cash on personal items, bad bad wrong.

    Bob will lose the lawsuit.

    There’s another interesting development that may work in our favor, we’ll see how it plays out.

  199. …and every crime is “in the past” the moment after it’s committed.

  200. I can’t download the sermon, either, and we have no shortage of bandwidth now. I’m guessing there are a lot of people trying to access it right now.

    What others have described here of leaning towards protecting the accused is my personal experience in CC. The leadership circles the wagons around the leaders and no investigation or hearing of the evidence takes place. The accuser, the victim, is then revictimized by being surrounded by a stone wall, or counter accusations (false ones, with no evidence or witnesses.) I’ve heard this scenario repeated so many times in so many CC’s that it’s in the general CC culture.

    If you are a CC pastor who leans towards protecting yourself and the other leaders without an honest, humble listening to the accuser (victim) and the evidence and witnesses, then ask God to show you how much of this culture have you absorbed without realizing it? Then ask God to help you repent to get in line with Paul’s command in Acts to the elders to “protect the sheep.”

  201. Anything not dealt with that is swept under the rug in the name of, “it’s in the past,” is a cancer that is growing out of sight. We either deal with sin or it grows.

    This one has grown beyond anyone’s wildest imagination! The consequences have grown, too.

  202. Good word Grateful,

    I am beginning to believe more and more that just by being apart of something you spiritually absorb an essence and into become. Buyer Beware.

  203. Grateful,

    I am not doubting what happened and that it is the truth.
    I was just convicted not to personally make any comments about BG.

    Does everyone here believe as BG stated that we ought to only “take it to the church leadership” (Matthew 18). Is that who the witnesses ought to be?

    The beginning of the sermon started with “Thank you for sharing my deepest life with me”
    That was a very weird statement.

    As I said, my mind was trying to follow the sermon from 3 point sof view.
    Defensively, from the Pastors perspective, attacking Alex, protecting his church.
    Thats why I thought Alex may be better to evaluate and comment.

  204. Correction: “Thank you for sharing my deepest life with you”.

  205. Grateful @ 201

    “The leadership circles the wagons around the leaders and no investigation or hearing of the evidence takes place. The accuser, the victim, is then revictimized by being surrounded by a stone wall, or counter accusations (false ones, with no evidence or witnesses.) I’ve heard this scenario repeated so many times in so many CC’s that it’s in the general CC culture.

    Well stated. Clinically, these dynamics are described as being: Revictimization by narcissist proxies. That is, the offender is never held to an account but rather the victim is silenced and the table is turned in order to protect the offender. God has nothing to do with this type of structure, It is an entity unto itself and self preservation the only thing that matters that matters. It’s as if it is a living being in itself. But to grow or to maintain itself, it must 1) recruit those who will emulate it, and 2) recruit those who will not breech its walls. The Mose’s Model is a smokescreen to give an appearance it is of the Lord. It is a front that enables its members to operate, selling God’s Word and using it to avoid being held to an account. It promotes itself through those whom do not have access to their inner circle. It does not permit anything or anyone to question or to bring problems that would required those in the system to change. Because it is a closed system, Any thing or person that would suggest a change is seen as a threat. Very much like any addictive system will and can only operate to stay alive.

    With all my heart, I pray that God will purge His church and halt this type of recruiting that has gone on far too long. Because we have to understand such leaders do not care about the destructive they have either directly or indirectly been involved passively or actively. There is absolutely no excuse or rationalization or biblical mandate to justified such lack of leadership and inattention to that which is so near and dear to God’s heart: His flock.

    So yes, it is what is refer to as a boiling pot for the worse type of narcissim one can imagine. And as Paul has told us, it needs to be expelled and put out of the church, which by the way consists of all those who are considered to be “non” members, spiritual members. Lord, God in all that You are give us all the strength, the courage, and the conviction to match that which have gone before us as they also layed their own lives down to stand against the evil abuses and betrayals that has been permitted to exist side by side using Your Holy name to justify these things and to keep them from ever being exposed in order to rid Your church of such corruption.

    When you have nothing to hide, you hide nothing. That is a mark of integrity.

  206. Hannah @ 204

    “Does everyone here believe as BG stated that we ought to only “take it to the church leadership” (Matthew 18). Is that who the witnesses ought to be?”

    “only” What I understood BG to say is that due to not wanting to “humiliate” the guility party, it should only be handled by the leadership. And not be made known to the church body in general.

    My understanding: Witnesses are those who goes with the offended party to biblically confront the offender. And if he or she still does not owned and make the amends to restore the relationship that was in place prior to the offense, then it is taken to those in leadership, and if the offender still resists, then they are to be taken by the leadership to the church and the church is to be told that this person is under church discipline, therefore, such and such is too be noted and exercised by all. If they feel humiliated, perhaps this is just the beginning of humbling them to realize the extent and the depth of the harm their choices had upon another. This is a consequences that they ought not be spared, if true repentance will ever come about. To avoid this, is enabling an fostering further harm and destruction to be committed against the victim of this person’s wrong doing, as well as, gives license to others to sin in this manner as well. It draws in leaven and it defiles those things that are to be kept Holy in the sight of the Lord–IMO

  207. Lying Religious Leaders

    2 1-2 But there were also lying prophets among the people then, just as there will be lying religious teachers among you. They’ll smuggle in destructive divisions, pitting you against each other—biting the hand of the One who gave them a chance to have their lives back! They’ve put themselves on a fast downhill slide to destruction, but not before they recruit a crowd of mixed-up followers who can’t tell right from wrong.

    2-3 They give the way of truth a bad name. They’re only out for themselves. They’ll say anything, anything, that sounds good to exploit you. They won’t, of course, get by with it. They’ll come to a bad end, for God has never just stood by and let that kind of thing go on.

    4-5 God didn’t let the rebel angels off the hook, but jailed them in hell till Judgment Day. Neither did he let the ancient ungodly world off. He wiped it out with a flood, rescuing only eight people—Noah, the sole voice of righteousness, was one of them.

    6-8 God decreed destruction for the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. A mound of ashes was all that was left—grim warning to anyone bent on an ungodly life. But that good man Lot, driven nearly out of his mind by the sexual filth and perversity, was rescued. Surrounded by moral rot day after day after day, that righteous man was in constant torment.

    9 So God knows how to rescue the godly from evil trials. And he knows how to hold the feet of the wicked to the fire until Judgment Day.

  208. Linda Pappas said it well with: “the offender is never held to an account but rather the victim is silenced and the table is turned in order to protect the offender. God has nothing to do with this type of structure, It is an entity unto itself and self preservation the only thing that matters that matters.”

    I am in the legal field. I have watched this site for a long time and truly believe everything that has happened to you, Alex. It is my belief, especially after his filing of the lawsuit, is that BG will never ever admit any wrongdoing. The lawsuit was filed as a matter of self-preservation. Bob G. has seen this site and has determined there is no way to stop the truth from being told other than to sue you. The problem you have, Alex, is that you won’t win. I don’t mean the lawsuit. I mean you will lose in many ways.

    First, this lawsuit will haunt you and take over your life and consume you, just as his abuse of you has consumed you. It will affect your heart and could jeopardize your family life. There will be interrogatories, demands for production, depositions, and a lot of money spent. I honestly don’t know what exposure you have, if any, but you should get legal counsel as soon as possible. as you are limited as to the time within you must answer the Complaint. You have 30 days from the date you were served. But in retaining counsel, please see what the attorney recommends to try to resolve this. My concern for you is the stress that the litigation will have on you and your family.

    I am the victim of church abuse. I walked out the door of the church of abuse and did not look back. It took me about three years to get over it, as it actually caused me considerable trauma. The worst part was that I walked out of the church with no resolution. I took things to the top and the pastor was accountable to NO ONE. He basically could do what he wanted without accountability. Things were swept under the carpet and I was made out to be the bad person. Very very typical. I hung on to this for a long time because I suffered a very tremendous loss. But at some point, at some time, I had to realize that my emotions and unwillingness to put the past behind me was hindering my relationship with God and my service to Him. So after some counseling, I have let it go. The best way for me to not think about it is to avoid things that have to do with that church. I still feel appalled and cannot wrap my head around how someone could call himself a pastor and do the things he did. Yet there will always be sinners in the church.

    I see how much pain and emotional trauma you have suffered. This is just a suggestion from a loving sister in Christ. I ask you to pray about taking this website down. It feeds your victimization. It feeds your anger and the injustice that has occurred. Why give Bob Grenier that much power over you any longer? Is he really worth it? One day he will have to stand before God and account for his conduct. You have hundreds and hundreds of people who have read this site, feel for you in your pain, are outraged by CC Visalia and the absolutely pathetic leadership there. I actually feel sorry for all those people. But for the sake of your own emotional health and to protect your family, please pray about taking this site down and doing whatever possible to make the lawsuit go away. It is not worth it. I will be praying for you.

  209. White Horses, thank you for your concern and for sharing your heart. It’s a very tough situation no doubt. Thank you for your prayers. It can be daunting and can look insurmountable. Bob definitely has a lot of power and financial support and the church’s backing to squash me, IMO.

  210. I know time is drawing close to your hearing, Alex. So wanted to post to encourage as I would imagine you are also having to replay so many things in your head. Please take comfort in knowing that although the court system is such that not all the information or rather truth will be heard, however, what you are doing, that is, seeing this through will be that which needs to be brought to the surface—thanks to BG and his litigious heart.

    Forensic clinician tells us that people such as the person BG has been described as being have this tendency to insert themselves into the legal system, if nothing else as a means to salvage the control that he has had thus far while garnering more attention and getting to revictimize those already harmed. It is sadistic to say it nicely.

    I would imagined that the pressure place on BG to repent vs. CC continuing protective covering, if you will has brought the type of attention that he privately relishes, but also has been a double edge sword for him as well. This case has nothing to do with truth or being harassed or any of the other accusations he has made against you, Alex. It’s about shutting you down and silencing the voices he hears in his own head.

    So just know, truth may not be heard and even though the court may rule in his favor, which not being an attorney cannot give you an opinion, nevertheless, you stand strong, Alex and speak it just the same. For each time, truth is muzzled it will be held to those who have done so. But you Alex, have honored the Lord and enabled many to see that they truely are not alone and that we as a people in the Lord can and will face these types of evils while being cast out by those who think they are doing the Lord’s work, but in fact have only been used by such who practice such things that are straight form the pit of hell.

    So, as this date comes upon you—stay close to those who support and love you. Try not to let the birds of deception make a nest in your head, for that is exactly what BG would like to be happening with you. Instead, rejoice in the Lord that you have been given this opportunity to help so many and to speak the truth from that which is on high in our society: the courts.

    Reminds me of Paul when he was falsely arrested. He just kept speaking the truth—all the way to Rome, causing many to consider their ways and what they believed and who they were following after, always holding firm to the truth and the message of salvation. While exposing evil and provoking the church to handle these things, yet seeking reconciliation after repentance of the person who committed such offenses.

    Blessing and peace upon you and your household, Alex.

  211. Permit me to rephrase the following:

    “Try not to let the birds of deception and doubt make a nest in your head . . . ”

    Again for those who can, please consider making a donation to CCA legal funds to help cover traveling expenses, basic needs, and of course, legal fees.

    There is a list of other ways you can assist as well. Just go to the posts on the blog before this one. And above all pray for a favorable ruling on Alex and Tim’s behalf for it is also a ruling concerning publicly speaking out against abuse and corruption in the church, as Scripture has told us to do.

  212. Uriah, good word, hope Alex will let us know the exact day so we can be fasting and or praying that justice show it self strong. I also will be looking to donate. We need to walk always in each other’s shoes. Even when you know you are right and just it is a difficult thing to go through. May God’s presence be felt in Alex, brothers, and his wife lives more than they could have even imagined in these last days.

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