Mar 182013
 

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Calvary Chapel Narcs for Jesus

 

Two readers commented about narcs today:

Andrew says:

This is what got me thrown out of my CC. But it wasn’t an assistant pastor but rather another narc. I didn’t do anything wrong other than have an intelligent conversation with another brother in my own home when this narc over heard me make a comment about my ex CC pastor. It went from there to the home group leader to the assistant pastor to the senior Moses. This is very common in Moses Model churches. Don’t ever say a word about the Moses pastor, not even in your own home if there is any chance at all of a narc over hearing or else you may be disciplined as well.

once a cc guru says:

March 18, 2013 at 11:37 am

# 28 Don’t ever say a word about the Moses pastor, not even in your own home if there is any chance at all of a narc over hearing or else you may be disciplined as well….

Yep, that how the cc mafia works… you will be ex-communicated, shunned and dethroned from ministry faster than you can say, Brian Broderson!

 

The following is taken from:  The Ministry of an Assisting Pastor, by Larry Taylor

20. Keep the Pastor Informed About Absolutely Everything—Be His Eyes and Ears, Be a Narc for Jesus

The Pastor needs to be told everything. He cannot oversee the ministry without data. Senior pastors hate surprises in their ministries. Tell the pastor all about the people in the congregation. Tell him what’s happening at meetings he doesn’t attend. Tell him how the Sunday School is going, what the youth group is doing, and the latest missionary efforts. Leave no stone unturned. Tell him everything.

Some ministries are so big that the Assisting Pastor doesn’t see or talk to the Pastor regularly. If that’s your case, write him letters. Pastor Chuck has far too much to do to talk to me every day on the phone or have me planted in his office when I should be out serving the people. So, I regularly write him a long letter, in which I tell him everything about the areas of ministry that I’m assisting him with. He needs input and data to make his decisions and oversee the ministry, so I give him as much input as I can. I inform him of everything. If something goes wrong, I want him to hear from me first. I want him to have all information in case he needs to make decisions about the ministry. I don’t expect an answer to the letters—it is just input from me to him.

Be the eyes and ears of the ministry. Listen to what people are saying. Pick up on the attitudes of the staff and leadership. Watch people to see who serves diligently and who goofs off. Be a narc for Jesus. Squeal on people. Narc on the guy who litters the parking lot. Tell the pastor everything. Absolutely everything.

UPDATE (by Alex): My friend Jeff (who I vouch for as a truth-teller) gave some first-person insight into Larry Taylor and The Ministry of an Assisting Pastor book we are discussing above. While I have seen the stuff Taylor espoused in practice in CC, I feel it’s important to clarify the facts according to a trusted source surrounding the situation which are here:

“First, Andrew, the Larry Taylor pamphlet was never commissioned by the church nor was it approved to use church funds to publish it. In fact, Chuck never desired it. Larry took funds from bible college revenues without permission and published it..just like his lovely book of poems. I had the personal blessing of destroying thousand of those suckers whenSteve Mays and Chuck fired Larry and we needed the space in the MHS bookstore for other materials people actually cared to read.”

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Did you notice “narcing” at your CC church?  Is this appropriate?  Is it Biblical?  Do you find it intrusive or is it necessary? Let’s talk!

 

 Posted by at 11:04 pm

  361 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Practices: Narc for Jesus”

  1. Alex- I won’t vote cause brown and burgundy are not the same.
    The brown here reminds me of excrement!

    I vote for burgundy….not brown!

  2. This is how narcking works in CC. Is that even a word? Never narc on someone in leadership. Narcking works best when you narc on someone below you in the social pecking order. In CC land you are to “protect” or “un-narc” those above you at all costs and “narc” out those below you as best you can all in the name of Jesus. The goal above all else is to to make him (senior Moses) increase and every one else decrease. This is the CC Modus Operandi.

  3. FYI: The “brown/burgundy” sample above is the identical color code used on the blog before the change to pink. I was thinking it looked more brown in color, but others mentioned wine/burgundy. Maybe it depends on the monitor.

  4. I wanted to also make a comment on “narcing”

    From my experience, if you speak with anyone about anything going on in the church, others that have a “connection” to the Pastor or anyone in leadership, feel it is their biblical responsibility to tell it to someone in leadership. They will in turn label you as “divisive in the body”.

    You beome a target to be rid of.

  5. Andrew- I was texting in the midst of my post, and I hadnt seen yours, but you said the same thing as I did.

  6. Maude- It looks chocolate brown on my computer

  7. Chocolate is an improvement from excrement, no?

  8. It’s also chocolate brown on my phone

  9. Well, the same color depending on the diet!

  10. This cartoon could fits well in the conversation (both conversations, actually).

  11. Maude- That is really something..yes both conversations :)

    I especially think this is true from the article:

    “Rather than being a community, it has become another business with goals to be met. If you don’t subscribe to its goals, then you can’t belong.”

    BTW, are you new here or another person using a different “name”?

  12. One more before heading out:

    I caught a post on “Open Blogging” on PhxP, that I wanted to direct others to.

    post #63. It really educated me. Relates to all we speak of here.

    Maude- if I am not allowed to mention a post from another blog, please delete this.

  13. I don’t see a problem with that, Hannah. In fact, I copied it here. It is relevant.

    Reuben says:March 16, 2013 at 3:09 pm
    Good interview, Alex.

    Since it is open blogging, and I don’t want to make another article to attract any more of the attention I have been getting, I have to get some trash off my mind.

    I had an epiphany. This is rehashed stuff, but made more real by the fact that people warned me that I would get pounced on for discovering such things, but experience speaks louder than just about anything.

    When I read the books about the history of CC, the distinctives, the assisting pastor, and so on, I saw things through a different lens. The lens was good experience. When I wrote the paper on one of those books, I questioned the idea that Chuck would tell a pastor to fire his entire board. Even then, it seemed odd to me that the wisdom of many would not outweigh the ideas of one. If I recall correctly, the pastor in question was told by his board that he needed to go full time into ministry. The pastor was a doctor or something, and did not want to give up his full time job. He asked Chuck what he should do, and the response, was, “Fire your board.” I wish I could find the book now, because there was another detail in there that bugs me to this day, that Chuck himself had laid hands on these board members prior to telling the pastor to fire them all.

    Fast forward almost 15 years, and that story hit me again, in the midst of my personal epiphany.

    Calvary Chapel was not, in my view, the brain child of Chuck Smith. It was rooted in deep rebellion. Chuck did not like his board telling him about chair arrangements, and teaching styles. So he left the church to start his own, one that he could run his way. Kay prayed for a way to reach out to the dirty shoeless hippies, and the answer to that prayer came in the form of a hippy named Lonnie Frisbee, a homosexual. It was the work of that man, not Chuck, that led to the tents and beach baptisms. Chuck raised the original disciples though. He handed off the DNA, so to speak. The DNA was simply my way or the highway. You surround yourself with defenders, not thinkers. Romaine. Larry Taylor. These men defended a system of protection for the pastor that was replicated throughout the movement.

    So if you came from the original disciples, you likely started your own church because you were not a protector/defender, and more likely a thinker. Those guys obviously had the call on their lives to be pastors, or, as reality dictated, could not be controlled by the SP, and were told, “Its time you went out on your own.”

    The funny thing is that as a youth pastor, I knew of countless heavily shrouded stories of the youth pastors or associate pastors reaching a point of disagreement with the deeply rooted SP in the CC system, and they were asked to find a place off the potential market area map, and plant their own damn church. What sucks is that they are all by default affiliated with CC.

    They all made poverty level wages as a youth pastor/associate pastor. They all worked for churches that were in the millions of dollars budget range. They could have learned lessons, but they did not.

    My initial experience with CC was “tainted” by the fact that my SP was not a direct descendant of the movement at all. The church did not even start out as a CC, but affiliated later in life. My secondary CC experiences were carbon copy of the descriptions above. Someone said, I want to do my own thing, and they were told to plant elsewhere, and they did.

    CCBC amplified this mentality, spreading the DNA, fixing in the minds of prospective young pastors the idea that they were the masters of the ship, and they would dictate the course of the church.

    I was recently cornered for lumping all CCs together. A mistake I won’t make twice. I pointed out the fact that Alex has had to nail the entire movement, because the entire movement has been built on a system that breeds tyrants and sociopaths. It protects them. I believe that with every fibre of my being. I loathe it for that very reason. Still, there are those who did not come up through the system. My favorite senior pastor being one of them.

    However, he did hand me the books, and ask that I read them, and write the papers on them. I still struggle with that. Maybe he believed the best of these propositions. Maybe he knew I would see the same. I may never know.

    I am faced with a conversation in the not so distant future, in which I will be asked about my online tirades. I will be asked why I condemn a system that saved tens of thousands and resulted in churches around the world. I will have to answer. I will answer that it is because the entire system is rooted in rebellion. The entire system breeds rebellion. The system is based on man. God has no control. The results of that system are only now coming to light through the internet. The system failed so many, and the more stories that are told, the more people are exposed to how they were manipulated.

    As I was listening to Alex’s interview, I was again reminded at how common the stories are. Everyone hit the same walls. Everyone saw the same problems. It has always been bad, but only now are people realizing that they are not alone.

  14. Maude, this post is awesome. I don’t know Reuben and I have only recently started reading the Phoenix Preacher but this is making a lot of sense.

    I am really waiting for someone to write a complete book on the CC movement. I want to finally put all the pieces together. I think Alex’s story needs to be part of it but I really want to see the entire thing from beginning to end with all the nuts and bolts and a complete biography of Chuck Smith. Maybe people are waiting for Chuck to pass to do this but I hope it can be balanced but truthful at the same time written by someone like Reuben that understands the bad system but maybe less wounded than Alex. I certainly don’t think this being written from the perspective of a defender or a CC Moses Model pastor will be helpful to any. It needs to be honest. Maybe Chuck’s previous lawyer or Larry Taylor or a host of others that have recanted of the CC way could tell the story. I really want to know the beginnings, the ins and outs, the good and bad, the heresies as well as the truths that have been proclaimed in this pseudo cult. I can’t really call CC a full blown cult like the JWs or the Mormons since I know I have some brothers and sisters in CC but the tactics used by this organization have been anything but Christian over the years. Chuck Smith as founder of this needs a full bio and it would be great if someone could interview him besides Greg Laurie before he dies. I am sure Chuck has a lot of valuable information if he cared to share it. Somebody like Martin Bashir or somebody nationally known preferably a Christian would be a good candidate for an extensive interview. I still hope he repents but I am convinced his legacy will go down as one of the most dangerous cult leaders in modern times. I don’t think there is anyway for him to restore this image. He can repent and get right with God but the legacy he left I am afraid is here to stay for a long time. So sad.

  15. Hannah – since you asked:

    The Mauderator

    PS – Voting closes in just over an hour. Exercise your right to vote on CCA! One vote per person, please, psst Grateful.

  16. Rueben and Andrew, thank you and good input.

    Do you see what seems to be happening a new thing a shift, let’s see.

    I am sure someone will right cs’s story and that will be a real earth shaking for many, truth has a mind of it’s own.

    In my opinion cs’ real legacy is not yet in stone, and he just may become one of the most strategic figures in modern church history. The name Smith for the family may well be a big burden, and they may end up with shame over all the wealth, as the world begins to see how they “got it”.

    It is hard imo, to see cs repent and make restitutions for all the harm he has done, pride and the love of money.

  17. Olivia, You are right about the legacy thing. No one knows but it appears that Chuck has tried to control some of his legacy with the Greg Laurie interview. Unfortunately that was a very softball interview that doesn’t tell a fraction of the story. It appears that Chuck has been trying to control his image and now his legacy his entire life.

    I really hope Chuck does an interview with someone beside Greg Laurie. I honestly think it would be healthy for Chuck to just come clean all around with no questions barred. What does he have to loose? My vote is for Martin Bashir to do the interview. Kind of like the Michael Jackson interview.

  18. Andrew, Christianity Today interviewed Chuck Smith in regards to the Skip Heitzig fiasco. Chuck told the reporter he needed to be careful and not “touch the Lord’s anointed.” You can find the story in the following articles published in Christianity Today.

    Access to the articles found here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/search/?query=Skip+Heitzig+and+Chuck+Smith&x=0&y=0

  19. Grateful,

    The kind of interview I am talking about needs to be a full documentary on Chuck and his life. The entire Skip Heitzig fiasco needs to be completely revisited along with Chuck’s previous statements about “touch not the Lord’s anointed”. Of course Chuck doesn’t have to do this kind of interview but if he has nothing to hide, why wouldn’t he? If Chuck still thinks Bob Grenier is God’s anointed than let Chuck defend his statements for the record for the entire world to see. If Chuck says the same thing about not touching God’s anointed than I want a good journalist to get Chuck to answer why he thinks Bob Grenier and Skip Heitzig are God’s anointed. This is not a matter of if Chuck thinks they are God’s anointed but rather that Chuck implicitly has already inferred that anyone ordained and affiliated by himself personally is in fact God’s anointed.

  20. Burgundy brown is what I voted for…like you had over the weekend. This is girl scout brown. blah :-)

  21. I hear ya, Andrew. I’d love to see Chuck give real answers too. I do not believe he ever will. Pride is a very strong deceiver.

  22. Yeah, it’s NOT PINK!

  23. Pride is an understatement. Chuck may be delusional. Its just not normal to have this ego center God-plex that Chuck seems to radiate.

  24. It’s kind of pinkish brown :-)

    It works for me. Thanks guys! I think I may work up a new header to make the text a little more professional, using this color scheme. Appreciate all the input.

  25. I like the new look. It’s brighter in here. The dark became as ominous as the content at times.

  26. I love Reuben’s post. The root of rebellion runs deep. Who knows evil lurks in the heart of men. The weed of crime bears bitter fruit.

  27. I think Reuben is absolutely right about the root of rebellion. If this is true which it sure appears to be than I have to conclude that Chuck Smith deliberately disobeyed God when he started this and we are all witnessing the fruit right now. Its either this or he is completely delusional. I am having a hard time finding a middle ground.

  28. I agree with Anite- This is not the burgundy from the weekend!
    For all of us who voted burgundy, we demand it!! ;)

    See how it would be in CC if everyone had a vote?
    Moses would be pulling his hair out!

    Maude- I am old enough to remember “Maude”. Methinks I know your identity!

  29. I can live with the brown. just knowing it was a consensus that got us there is refreshing.

  30. I was thinking about this rebellion thing again. In a way, it seems like the only solution for Calvary Chapel is for everyone in the system from the attenders to the assistant pastors to the associate pastors to the senior pastors to the regional pastors to start talking.

    Unfortunately this would all be viewed as being rebellious to question the guy above you but I see no way for Calvary Chapel to correct their problems unless this happens. Its like you need to be rebellious to fight the rebellion. But the rebellion we need is really obedience to God and not to a man. But it is kind of ironic. We need rebellion to fight rebellion.

  31. http://www.colorschemer.com/schemes/index.php?tag=burgundy

    Some nice burgundys here–think of the wine…..

  32. Do you think this color is really different than the one from Sunday? I carefully copied the hex color code and sent it to my elf in an e-mail so I wouldn’t lose it and this is the result. So, I’m stumped that it looks different. It seems like it was a bit darker and maybe with a tinge more red.

  33. In the color scheme, the main point was to change the text to black instead of white; mission accomplished. As far as the borderline color goes, how about us all agreeing to have Alex’s oldest son be the one to decide, and let it be?

  34. i like it

    even voted for it

    sweeeet!

  35. I was thinking that after we decide the color of the carpet in here we could move on to decide what sort of music we want? Oh boy … ;)

  36. This is quite lovely.

  37. Just kidding, this was a fun diversion. :)

    Now, back to being a Narc for Jesus. Is that not the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever heard?

    First, they set up all negative talk of any sort as gossip and slander, which is not the definition of those words. But successfully the no talk rule gets put in place with a religious sticker over it.

    So while the people cannot say anything, even if it’s true, even if it’s a serious issue that needs attention, or even if it’s a question, the leadership has “god” sanctioned gossip orders to tell the pastor EVERYTHING they hear, to keep him informed.

    Are you kidding me? What a double standard! What lies! Where’s the love people?

  38. Grateful, lol and lol, you kill me.

  39. Maude, are you a hippy? :-)

  40. No, Alex, but I think Tiny Tim is.

  41. These new colors and music are making me more friendly and irenic.

    Here’s the music that I would have chosen with the Black blog theme

  42. Alex: That should be the Benny Hinn theme song as bodies get “slain in the spirit.”

  43. nedo, the Smackdown Edition ROCKS!!!! :-)

  44. Benny knows how to work the biz, I’ll give him that.

    It actually looks like a lot of fun, I could totally to that….if I didn’t think I’d burn in hell for it

  45. When I mentioned Benny Hinn, I really had no clue those videos existed on YouTube. Only shows what a farce he is.

  46. Oh, those were all good!

  47. I remember watching that episode with Tiny Tim. He’s still just as weird.

  48. Post YouTube videos like a pro here on CCA. Select your YouTube video and:

    1) Click on “Share” link beneath the YouTube video

    2) There is a rectangle area with html code, but first make sure to select the correct video size.

    2) The video size selection menu is beneath the rectangle with the html code. Use the drop-down arrow and select 560 x 315 for use here.

    3) Once you’ve selected the proper video size, copy the complete html code from the rectangle area. The code will start with the greater-than sign and end with the less-than sign.

    4) Paste it in your message here.

    Give it a try. Show us what you’ve got!

  49. CC’s Moses Operandi. I’ll bet dollars to donuts that David Di Sabatino is working on the life of Chuck the huckster. In the scheme of things, Chuck is. No negative talk = word of faith. No negative talk about Chuck = 3 monkeys.

  50. I will admit I am rather envious of Pastor Hinn, I could have kept dozens of programs and group homes from closing with what he pulled in per year. There are times I literally hate myself for not raking in the cash Pastor Hinn was able to rack up. I consider it a personal, spiritual and moral failing on my part. He gained and maintained a constant and rather lucrative revenue stream, there is no higher spiritual objective in this life. Cash is always and I do mean always king, and winner always and I do mean always takes all. I got that much from the evangelical religion in america.

  51. Any comment on Rob Bell’s new statement about Christians opposing Gay marriage needing to repent?

  52. I don’t think they need to repent and are entitled to their opinion regarding the morality of gay marriage. However, as a Govt./Legal contract, I think that Gay Marriage is as tenable as Divorcee Marriage, Adulterer Marriage and Fornicator Marriage.

  53. If the logic goes:

    “Marriage is to be between a man and a woman”

    …isn’t it really:

    “Marriage is to be between a non-divorced man and non-divorced woman, a non-adulterous man and non-adulterous woman, a non-fornicating man and a non-fornicating woman” etc?

    I affirm the right for folks to call Gay Marriage “immoral” and “wrong”…however, to legislate that morality where there is a broad difference of belief on that issue within Liberal Christian Camps and even some Moderate Christian Camps…as well as a large chunk of non-Christians in our Democratic Republic…I think there is no Consensus on the issue from a Govt./Legal context and we shouldn’t impede Gays from a Govt/Legal contract/tax status etc that we allow for others who we consider “immoral” like adulterers, fornicators, divorcees remarrying etc.

    There’s the Spiritual Kingdom and there’s the Govt/Legal System.

    We do legislate morality where there is broad consensus, like “murder” or “child molesting” etc. We don’t legislate morality where there is broad disagreement like drinking alcohol (think Prohibition, etc) except when it endangers others like drunk driving, public intoxication etc.

  54. Seems if the Fundamentalist Christian Position of “No Gay Marriage” is to be consistent…then the Position should also include a Ban on Divorcee Marriage, Fornicator Marriage and Adulterer Marriage, no?

  55. Here is my take on gay marriage from a fundamentalist position. Why would gays want to get married and recognized by the state/fed anyway? That is what we are talking about right? Its not about the religious thing anyway. They can do that in any gay affirming organization that performs gay marriages. Its always whether it can be recognized by gov. I know a few couples that consider getting divorced in the legal sense just to help with taxes, etc…The marriage penalty for some things is just too high. Gosh if I come to think about it if same sex marriages start getting recognized by the gov. I wouldn’t be surprised if you see a bunch of happily marriage couples get divorced because they would no longer view the state’s concept of marriage as legitimate anymore. They would still be married in the church’s eye but out of protest would consider divorce. I really have no clue what gays are looking for..Their marriage will never be accepted in the religious community by those that think homosexual activity is sinful. If this is what they are looking for, they will never find it.

  56. Andrew, I think you brought up a really interesting point.

    I think there really are two sorts of “marriages”…Govt/Legal contract sense and Moral sense as in Church/Religion.

    I’ve got no problem with folks being “married” in the eyes of God and honoring a marriage covenant, but not being “married” in the Govt/Legal sense. They would just have to deal with the pros and cons of that legal standing.

  57. Alex said: I don’t think they need to repent and are entitled to their opinion regarding the morality of gay marriage. However, as a Govt./Legal contract, I think that Gay Marriage is as tenable as Divorcee Marriage, Adulterer Marriage and Fornicator Marriage.

    That is one thing that has always bothered me about outspoken Christians who oppose Gay Marriage. Why do they typically avoid calling out adultery, divorce, etc? Frankly, I wish the church would spend its time focusing on cleaning their own houses and what they allow and cover up under their own roofs.

  58. I know lots of people who are “married” in the Govt/Legal sense…but don’t honor the marriage covenant and aren’t really married in the eyes of God. There is a contrast and a difference between the two.

    One can be “married” in the spiritual sense w/o being married in the legal sense and vise versa.

    Marriage in the Govt/Legal sense has rules and cause/effect correlations. If gays want to enter that arena, I don’t see how we can deny them that option from a Govt./Democratic Republic sense.

    Now, I think it violates the Constitution to “make” a church or pastor perform or sanction that marriage, and I think it violates our Constitution if a church or pastor is punished for speaking to gay marriage as “immoral” and expressing their opinion about gay marriage from a religious/moral perspective (as long as the speech doesn’t incite violence and as long as the church doesn’t discriminate against gays in a legal sense).

  59. Julianne, not me. First adultery and divorce and two different things. Adultery is always wrong but the circumstances surrounding divorce always have to be carefully examined. If you recall I was one of the first ones to call out Dinesh D’souza having a standing invitation to speak at a Calvary Chapel once his divorce papers are finalized. This is disgusting to me.

  60. I prefer the legal definition of marriage to remain as it has been for centuries – between man and woman. Before it was a legal contract, it was a spiritual contract. But I guess the state can’t be bothered with that. I don’t know why they couldn’t call gay marriages “Civil Unions,” ditching the “marriage” word altogether. They could give the same tax/medical benefits to Civil Union as they do legal Marriage.

    I have read of stories where a gay couple has been together for 40+ years, one ends up with a life-threatening illness, is in the hospital, and the hospital will not allow their partner the same rights to know what’s going on with their partner under HIPAA laws. That seems pretty cold-hearted.

  61. Andrew – I absolutely concur with you on the divorce issue. I do not believe it is wrong to divorce with adultery or abuse, etc.

    Alex said: I know lots of people who are “married” in the Govt/Legal sense…but don’t honor the marriage covenant and aren’t really married in the eyes of God. There is a contrast and a difference between the two.

    That is so true, Alex. They have the appearance of “marriage” to the world, but their house is in shambles. They are dishonoring the marriage covenant to the world by their behavior.

  62. Julianne, I agree if you.

  63. Good points all around (not so much about Christian marriage/divorce because God made an allowance for divorce in certain circumstances), but the question was based on a professed Christian leader (Pastor) asking other Christians to repent of an aberration (lack of a better word) of what God ordained as a union between a man and woman.

    I understand this will score points with the audience he is now trying to reach–the teens–those who may be already questioning their faith.

  64. 1 Peter 4:17 just came to mind based on some of the comments (well I had to look up the verse, but had some of the words in my mind)

  65. Well, Calvary Chapel is certainly against Banning “Divorcee Marriage” as Don Stewart co-hosts Pastor’s Perspective with Chuck Smith.

    Calvary Chapel: “Ban Gay Marriage! It’s not what God said marriage is to be!”

    Yet, God says men who divorce their wives for invalid reasons (other than abuse or adultery) aren’t to get married…

    Whey isn’t CC up in arms about Don Stewart?

  66. If I keep the law regarding marriage, that is, if I am true to my wife and never cheat on her, do I qualify to have an opinion about gay marriage? Gay marriage does endanger others. It endangers our whole society. And we do have laws regarding alcohol. Does a judge in his courtroom have to be without sin?

  67. Alex,

    I know Don Stewart was divorced but I don’t know any of the surrounding details of this. I think the same can be said of Bob Coy. But I don’t know any of the details. However, I do think the qualifications for an elder are higher than the general Christian. So not sure any divorced person should be an elder. You do got a point. But I am not judging Don or Bob on their divorce unless there was adultery. Even then, I believe this is forgivable where someone can get remarried. My take on marriage and divorce may not be a typical for a fundamentalist but I believe it can be backed from scripture.

  68. I am thinking of David and Bathsheba.
    God seemed to bless them afterwards–after the consequences of their sin and repentence. And it confuses me about David. He had concubines. Why is that any different than what happened with Bathsheba? Maybe I need to re-read about David. Its been a long time, I may be missing something.

  69. Jesus said Moses allowed for divorce because of the hardness of your heart but He dint say He allowed for the gay lifestyle for any reason.

  70. Gary said: If I keep the law regarding marriage, that is, if I am true to my wife and never cheat on her, do I qualify to have an opinion about gay marriage? Gay marriage does endanger others. It endangers our whole society. And we do have laws regarding alcohol. Does a judge in his courtroom have to be without sin?

    Anyone can have an opinion about anything as far as I’m concerned. I hear people saying that gay marriage endangers others and society. I’d like to know more of your thoughts on that, Gary.

    I think the last 25 of my life, I’ve been in a bubble because in the past few years I have been alarmed at what Christians have done to the institution of marriage. Do you think it would make a difference whether it was labeled “gay marriage” or “civil union?”

  71. This may open up a can of worms.

    http://www.ukapologetics.net/concubine.html

  72. You’re not missing anything, Hannah. Even though God dint specifically condemn David’s concubines, there were consequences. Solomon’s multiple wives and concubines were his downfall. They led him away from serving God. His sons divided the kingdom and went to war against each other.

  73. So as per the the last- a concubine is not considered as adultery.

  74. Well it seems it was much harsher with Bathsheba.
    That was considered adultery. Or maybe it is just how we have been taught about David/Bathseba.
    Did u read the link?

  75. Hannah: One of my many list of questions is why could Solomon have many wives, but a woman couldn’t have many husbands?

  76. Julie Anne “Do you think it would make a difference whether it was labeled “gay marriage” or “civil union?”

    You know, seeing those 2 different descriptions/titles, there is less of a “sting” with “civil union”….

  77. Gay marriage is part of the whole gay agenda. Look at how gays have polarized society. There is no middle ground. People now see Christianity as being bad. Every non believer knows and freely quotes “Judge not”.

  78. Julie Anne-

    Good point! ;)

  79. God DID judge David’s sin of adultery and murder. His baby died and the “sword will never leave your household”

  80. Civil union? My cousin lived with her boyfriend for 10 years. Eventually the state by default said they were married. At that time I think they called it a civil marriage. Yes, civil union terminology would be better than marriage terminology but this will never be enough for some. I still don’t know what gays are looking for. If it is medical benefits, etc.. then why can’t I put my sister on my company’s health insurance policy if she lives with me. This is just plain hypocritical.

  81. When Nathan confronted David he said David had given the wholw world cause to mock God.

  82. Gary- I know that but he blessed him after. That was in response to Pastors forfeiting their role after adultery. Then I thought of the concubines and that this didn’t seem to matter as much as what David did with Bathsheba.,

  83. Andrew-There is provision now to put your partner on your medical insurance. I have seen it.

  84. Partner? Can your partner be your sister?

  85. I think God allowed polygamy in the early days because life was so hard and women had zero rights. Same as slavery. Being a wife and being a slave at least gave you basic necessities and protection.

  86. God’s blessing on David was much less than before his adultery. Look at what some of his children did- insurrection, incest, open rebellion to the throne, etc.

  87. Here is a direct result of the decay of our society, which includes ditching morality. The whole world mocks us and our God.

  88. Gary – I wouldn’t be so quick to believe all the “gay agenda” hype. The Religious Right have been feeding us this stuff for years. Sure there are some very vocal activists who are over the top. You can find the same in the feminist movement, but look at the Religious Right – are they not doing the same thing – some very loud voices presume to speak for the whole group?

    I don’t want you to get the idea that I’m against homosexuality – that’s not it at all. What I am against is the religious right grabbing a platform blasting certain groups of people, acting as if they are so saintly when they have been trashing the covenant of marriage with their lifestyles. Remove the log.

  89. Andrew, it won’t be long before your sister could be your partner. or your child, or your dog.

  90. Gary, I am hear you. But if I could get health benefits for my sister who lives with me, I would consider putting her down as a partner as long as it didn’t have the overtones that it was sexual in nature. This is what is so wrong with this entire gay agenda. It is so hypocritcal.

  91. It wasn’t the religious right who attacked the pastor’s home in San Francisco while the police stood by and watched. We’re not fighting against flesh and blood. There’s a spirit that drives the gay community. He has duped them into a belief system. That’s the gay agenda I’m referring to. That attack on a pastor and his family isn’t very different that the attack on Lot and his family.
    I used to listen to the religious right many years ago until they started foaming at the mouth. Just as God is using Alex and Julie Anne He is using other factions of the religious right to affect those in government. *Backs away from the computer*

  92. If a church, any church, would judge their leaders for agregious sin, our consciences would be clear and the non Christian world would have a whole lot more respect for Christianity. I blame Christians for watering down the gospel, and subsequently morality. We are to be salt and light. We must be both.
    One of the pastors at my church had an affair. He told the elder board and they thought they could hide it under the rug but one righteous man said he had to go. He was fired and it took him years before he had another ministry.

  93. So Julianne you told us you are not “against” homosexuality. Do I mind if I ask you if you think homosexual behavior is sinful?

  94. Throughout Paul’s writings he comdemned sin in the church and in society yet he claimed to be the chief of sinners. There is no disparity there. Every Christian must do what we believe God has called us to do. People who speak out publicly against sin are like prophets (maybe they ARE prophets). And you know what society thinks of prophets.

  95. BTW, the religious right hasn’t fed me anything. It is easier to just read your Bible and find out what it says. But I don’t recommend the “Queen James” Version. Get a real version.

  96. Ok, Gary – this is what I’m talking about. I wasn’t even looking for it and it showed up minutes ago in my Twitter feed: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/gary-demar-calls-homosexuality-grave-evil-akin-pedophilia-murder-and-slavery

    Gar DeMar has an agenda himself – Reconstructionist agenda. He uses whatever platform he can to promote his agenda. I did several articles on Kevin Swanson, also Reconstructionist – who has his own radio show and said he’s heard reports from scientists/doctors that women on birth control pills have embedded fetuses in their wombs – dead babies embedded in their wombs. I went off on him: on his FB page, his e-mail, his Twitter acct asking, pleading, demanding that he provide sources for his comment. He never provided anything except a 30-yr old “report” from Randy Alcorn, an author, not a scientist or doctor. It’s hogwash. He says that rhetoric to promote his agenda that he believes all birth control is wrong. He believes that every sperm has the potential to be life and no sperm should be wasted. The Reconstructionist idea is to populate the world for Jesus. (http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/category/kevin-swanson/) Oh, to finish the Swanson story – – he eventually removed the radio broadcast from his site (although other bloggers still have it posted). He never acknowledged that he did not have credible sources. He just ignored the issue entirely. You can be sure we will be hearing more rhetoric from Swanson, and you can be sure Julie Anne will be exposing it :)

    Anyway, back to the gay subject – I think if you were to actually have a heart-to-heart with most gay people, you would not be hearing all that hype that you and I in the Christian community read/hear about. You would find them leading quiet lifestyles, minding their own business.

  97. Queen James. lol I cut my teeth on the KJV but I switched to the NIV. I can get multiple versions online.

  98. Ok, raise your hand if you’ve rolled your eyes at my posts… Where are the emoticons? I need a winky face.

  99. Andrew: Typo alert. Whoa – – Maude, will you please add “NOT” here (8:38):
    I don’t want you to get the idea that I’m against not homosexuality – that’s not it at all.

    The Bible seems pretty clear that man/man sex and woman/woman sex is sin. I think the act is sinful, but I still will love the person as Christ tells us to love everyone.

  100. *Backs away from the computer*

    LOL, Gary!!

  101. Thanks Julianne, of course. I have seen a few of these typos for awhile now so its good to get clarification. Not back to abuse in Calvary Chapel. I am sickened.

  102. I love it when people send me private notes telling me of typos they see. I know I miss a lot. I always proofread my stuff, but what sometimes happens is that I forget to turn off the emotional side of me. When I get sucked into the story emotionally, my logical proofreading skills go out the window.

  103. What exactly is Christian deconstructionism? I have heard that term lately. Is this like Dominion theology or kingdom now theology?

  104. Embedded fetus in the womb? Wow. The uterus sheds its lining every month. Dont know how that is possible.

    I have been against the IUD because it allows fertilization in the fallopian tubes, yet does not allow the fertilized embryo to implant in the uterus. So you can sort of liken this to abortion.

  105. Julianne, that article you pointed us to mentions that they were Christian reconstruction group. From what I am researching, this looks like pretty scarey stuff. This is not what I typically though think of when I think of the Christian Right.

  106. Andrew – you typed deconstruction – that may have been a typo, are you meaning Reconstructionism? Other people can explain it far better than me. Here are a couple links:

    http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=6457

    http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisrec.html

    From my involvement in spiritual abuse systems, I see Reconstructionism to be very dangerous. It is the movement behind the Homeschool Movement, the full-quiver movement, the courtship movement, etc. It is Patriarchal which sets groundwork for abuse among women if the authority is not in check. Gary North pretty much masterminded the Y2K hype years ago – that hype led people to quit their jobs, move to the hills in communities living off the grid, etc.

  107. The article I posted about the gay agenda earlier was from Reconstructionist Gary DeMar.

    This article names a few: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=234

    This article describes how the group is somewhat “invisible.” (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/12/nation-under-god)
    You don’t find Reconstructionist churches. My family stumbled across one. I think we went a couple of times and they gave us literature/books, I looked up the authors and endorsements and was shocked and never went back. It is a movement, so you may have some at your church and not even know about it.

  108. Hannah – I know – the guy is ridiculous. Everybody knows that menstruation causes the lining of the uterus to shed each month, so how in the world could there be embedded babies? It is pure rhetoric pushing his no-birth control, full-quiver, populate the world with Christian, Reconstructionist agenda. He makes me sick.

  109. Julianne, Yes, my bad. Typo. Re not De. I think you are on to something with this. It does look very dangerous. However, I not sure how easy it is to pin point who the players are. From what I am seeing, it sounds like it could have some secrecy within the movement kind of like Calvary Chapel.

  110. These are my thoughts. I think Reconstructionism works just like the Homeschool Movement. My family bought into a lot of the Homeschool Movement (full quiver – we have 7 kiddos, courtship, etc) without realizing we were pushing the Homeschool Movement agenda along (btw, homeschooling roots are Reconstructionist – I have articles on my blog about this).

    So, I think many people are supporting various aspects of the Reconstruction movement and don’t realize it has the name of Reconstructionism or even that it is a movement. As in the Homeschool movement, you will find pockets in various organizations and churches, some having full knowledge they are promoting it, some only connecting with certain parts of it. It’s pretty crazy. Because now that I have this knowledge of both these movements, I watch my Facebook newsfeed and see some of my friends linking to this article and that group and want to scream: heyyyyyyy – – – did you know by sharing that article, you are sharing Reconstructionist AGENDA????? But I have learned if I mention anything like that, they think I have lost my marbles.

  111. Re: Hannah @71 said,

    “… And it confuses me about David. He had concubines. Why is that any different than what happened with Bathsheba? Maybe I need to re-read about David. Its been a long time, I may be missing something.”

    Key difference is that Bathsheeba was married.

    After reading through the OT again, God seemed to be silent on multiple wives and concubines, but when it came to engaging with someone who was married … whoa! God was not happy! That is clearly a line that one must not cross.

  112. I never heard of Reconstructionism before this thread, but I’ve seen the various parts to it. This gets more and more interesting …

  113. Julianne, I have to admit when I first saw your threads about “homeschooling” on your website I was a bit disappointed. Actually I don’t know much about the movement but it seems innocent enough. Actually when I see what is being taught and embraced and indoctrinated into public schools I feel that there is really no other choice. So I agree with you on the reconstruction agenda but I need to reserve comments on the “home schooling”.

  114. Maude just “cleaned” up a few comments :::cough cough::::

    Carry on :)

  115. Andrew: If you came away with that idea after reading my blog, you have missed something. I expose the “Homeschool Movement,” not homeschooling. I think homeschooling is a great alternative to public school and in fact continue to homeschool even now. The Homeschool Movement, however, is dangerous and we are now seeing the fruit of that movement coming out on young adults who are now telling their stories. It’s very sad. There is a clear distinction between the two.

  116. What I took away from your blog was that you felt like you were being brain washed growing up. I respect your opinion and experience.

    However, Lets just take one example from your blog. You mention that you were taught to debate creationism vs. evolution. I’m not really sure what the problem with that is. But you see in public school, you are not allowed to talk about creationism. It is banned and it is deemed to be mythology. This is just one example.

  117. Did you read the whole article? I think debating creation/evolutionism is great. In that part of the article, I’m discussing how our homeschooled kids are brilliant and have a rich educational background – that’s all positive. And then I discuss the negative aspect because of the parenting styles, legalism, etc. Be sure to read the whole context.

  118. “What I took away from your blog was that you felt like you were being brain washed growing up. I respect your opinion and experience.”

    I wasn’t homeschooled. I was the homeschool parent. I was brainwashed in the homeschool movement as a homeschooling parent.

  119. So, I still am not sure where the issue lies. Maybe I am not familiar enough with what you mean by movement. If you are joining others in some kind of community to help in the homeschooling process than I would want to know what the curriculum, etc.. is that we would be teaching our kids? This is like when I go to church, I want to know what the doctrinal statement is before I attend. I honestly not sure where the issue lies. If you believe in 5 point Calvinism and you want to teach your children that and you join with another group that believes that than you have made a choice. I honestly don’t get where your complaint is.

  120. Andrew – I can tell you are confused. I have been homeschooling for over 20 years and am still piecing it together. There is a Homeschool Movement within homeschooling circles. Some may have dabbled into parts of the movement without realizing it. Read your #112 comment, Andrew. It works just like that.

  121. Julianne, is it a particular home school curriculum that bothers you so much? You mention that you are now homeschooling. Are you using a curriculum and in community with others using the same curriculum?

  122. Andrew – go to the categories on my blog and read articles on Reconstructionism and Homeschooling Movement. I’m on my way out and can’t respond for a few hours. The Homeschool Movement has definitely infiltrated homeschool curricula with their agenda.

  123. Julianne, I believe you 100%. The pastor that abused me. Him and his wife were big time into home schooling so I see your point. I guess it wouldn’t be possible to see the curriculum that these circles espouse without getting into copy write issues. I know how this pastor treated me so I am on your side Julianne but I think we need better ways to articulate our concerns.

  124. Andrew,

    The homeschooling circles have different emphasis’ and goals depending on what groups one associates with.

    When our kids were homeschooled, they were not accepted into groups where they bought into the no birth control QuiverFull Movement. They were not accepted by those who only used Classical Christian educational curriculum. They were not accepted by those who practiced “isolationism.” They were in school before the purity movement and non-dating philosophies could affect them.

    There are movements, factions, cliques, within homeschooling. There are differing guiding philosophies and practices.

    At any point you can have something good or run into something bad. The trick is being able to spot the roots and understand where it leads, because it all has a nice religious overtone of it being “right” at first glance.

  125. Grateful, thank you. It appears that the movement itself is not the problem but rather the particular vendors that endorse a particular teaching emphasis, etc.. But what is confusing is that Julianne is calling the entire movement into question. I kind of respect Ken Ham’s take on the movement here:

    http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2010/07/08/problems-in-the-homeschool-movement/

  126. Grateful-Thanks for clearing that up. Makes sense. Men can have as many wives as they want, but if they want one that is married she is off limits…ok :)

    Julie Anne- I homeschooled briefly. I felt that it was a kind of cult mentality–only certain curriculums, very controlling mothers. Of course I am not making a judgement on anyone else. Just what I experienced. I remember going to the Homeschool conventions. I bought some curriculum from a couple of men -forget their company name (I think we talked about this before) the first name was Doug something. Something seemed off. I thought at the time it was the Calvanistic approach- well, much more to say but it has been awhile and I may not have my facts straight….Many of these kids were really controlled by their moms-especially the boys.

  127. Calvanistic approach-because I was clearly in the Calvary Chapel mindset.

  128. Andrew asked, what exactly is reconstructionism?

    I believe this is an important question if we are to understand what is going on in the churches today.

    It comes down to how a person or group

    Interprets the bible. (hermeneutics)
    What and when is the kingdom of God. (at present or future)
    . What one believes about things to come (eschatology).

    For a long time Dispensational Theology has been influencing Christian thinking with literal interpretation of the bible and pre-trib, pre-mill eschatology.

    Recently there has been a huge upsurge in Reformed Theology influence (allegorical interpretation of the bible when it comes to prophecy) with some new ideas that maybe aren’t that new (e.g. John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, The Gospel Coalition).

    With the upsurge in reformed theology there is more end times views and although much different in some ways in principal can work together.

    Some amillennials (older reformed theology)believe things are going to get worse and worse (apostasy), the anti-Christ will be revealed, terrible persecution will break out Jesus will return, everyone will be judged, some to hell and some to heaven and we will enter the eternal state.

    Some amiil (newer reformed theology) and post-mill’s (Vineyard and others) believe Jesus ushered in the kingdom of God when he came but won’t or can’t return until the church has taken over. Even though these groups are much different in theology in principal they find themselves working together without problem as long as it is “advancing the Kingdom of God”.

    So some believe it is okay to work with Mormons and Catholics to advance moral issues, some believe in affecting our culture, not by preaching but by being Missional (affecting our culture by joining it), some by redeeming the earth, some by legislating morality (Theonomy), and so on.

    Important Theology’s to know:

    • Kingdom Theology
    • Dominion Theology
    • Reconstructionism Theology
    • Theonomy
    • Inaugurated Theology
    • Liberation Theology

    The dispensational and some others believe that Jesus offered the Kingdom of God to the Jews by presenting Himself as their King, when they refused Him he began to talk about this new mystery the church, the physical kingdom was put on hold and the kingdom of God is now in men’s hearts. Also like the old reformed, they believe things will get worse (apostasy), but then the rapture, tribulation, return of Jesus, judgment of nations, millennium (literal 1000 yrs), Satan released, judgment, eternal state.

    Therefore the older reformed and the dispensational cannot join in building a kingdom they believe will be the anti-Christ’s that Jesus will destroy and the set up his Kingdom and yet want to be in ministry helping the widow and the poor, etc.

    Others believe they are building a kingdom that they will hand over to Jesus when he returns and those that don’t join them aren’t fit to enter, also down play the need to agree in end times views.

    CC has always been dispensational and that is one of the strange things about what is going on. It made sense that new and neo Calvinists could work with or support Rick warrens P.E.A.C.E plan and the Christian Right could work with Catholics and Mormons, etc., but CC being dispensational they seemed to be anti-Catholic, anti-Rick Warren and now they openly embrace both.

    So some see CC as anti-Catholic and some as apostate because they now seem to embrace it.

    And with post-modernism and “no one really knowing the truth”, there is a lot of blending going on.

    Could explain better but did not want a real long post :)

  129. Julianne, sorry I missed your comment at 120. When I first read this article, I interpreted these positive things you mentioned as being sarcastic. My bad. When I read it again though I still come away with those same feelings.

  130. Q, That was one heck of a good synopsis. I think the issue today in post modernity is this blending you talked about. It is getting more and more difficult when it comes to discernment.

  131. Many of these ideas (e.g. missional, quiverfull, 7 mountains) are amill and post-mill peoples ideas to take over the world (in Jesus name of course).

    If you are not in their camp and they are talking about taking dominion it doesn’t take long to figure out who they want to take dominion over, hence why some see it as scary and others not so much.

  132. Q, Thanks, now its making more sense. This seems to me it would tie right into the Word of Faith prosperity movement as well.

  133. Andrew, I think it does because of Kingdom Now Theology (not Kingdom Theology), one is redeeming everything and one is claiming it now.

    Plus some of the newer reformed (e.g. Driscoll) are non-cessational so it also fits.

  134. Q, Yep, my thoughts exactly. The Seeker Sensitive, the Charismatic, the Roman Catholic the Word of Faith and of course the Emergent church all seem to be in subtle ways joining forces. Scary stuff.

  135. Andrew, here’s the info re: Don Stewart. Jackie is a pretty strict Christian Fundamentalist and this is her take on Stewart and she seems to have some pretty solid facts and sources to back up her thesis from the Christian Fundamentalist perspective:

    http://rrrapostasyalert.blogspot.com/2012/01/january-20-2012-show-my-perspective-on.html

  136. My thoughts are, if Calvary Chapel can muster up enough Grace and find enough loophole in the Bible to have a Don Stewart of David Hocking soldier on as a pastor/elder/leader/rep of their Church…and if CC can endorse their Divorcee Marriage…why so hard on the Gays? Seems a bit of bias and picking and choosing of which “morals” and which “proper marriage” etc to me.

    Either be a Strict Fundamentalist, or be a Liberal. I see Selective Fundamentalists and I see Liberals…I don’t know any real Fundamentalists who take the Bible (in word and practice) as simple and literal in all areas…though the EO does have women cover their heads in church, etc.

  137. Alex, I would agree that Don Stewart should step down as an elder if that is what he is. But in Calvary Chapel they don’t really have elders per say, they have just the Big Man, the senior pastor, the Moses Model guy, the boss. So my question is whether Don has a church of his own? I am at the point where I find Calvary Chapel so repulsive that its hard for me to know what they should do. In some ways I think the church is completely apostate in in other ways, I think there is still a remnant there. Thats from my fundamentalist perspective.

  138. Andrew, it gets a bit loophole-y for me. Don Stewart is clearly in a position of leadership in Calvary Chapel as he co-hosts “the” show with Chuck Smith and I’d bet my gold teeth that Don Stewart claims the pastoral tax status on his taxes (not sure, speculation, but again, I’d bet the farm).

    Now I’m sure Calvary Chapel has some good loophole explanations, which just illustrates the Grace they are willing to extend on an issue they don’t like in the bible…vs. the Hard Line Law they want to impose on our society with the Gay Marriage issue.

    David Rosales and many in Calvary Chapel rail on Gays and many CC pastors have actively campaigned for Prop 8 in California. I don’t see that as being right when they tolerate so much abuse and corruption in their own Camp.

  139. But regarding the issue of remarriage after divorce, I would disagree with Jackie. Even if the offending party was wrong, I just think its possible to remarry after repentance. I believe this can be backed scripturally because between don’t translate divorce correctly in their Bible translations. I believe “seperation” and “divorce” and “certificate of divorce” are all different terms and then on top of that you need to add in the civil or legal definition of marriage in our society. It is complicated but I do believe there is marriage after divorce even when someone screwed up. But I don’t believe that person should be an elder however.

  140. From what I’ve learned, clearly Calvary Chapel and Calvary Chapel Leadership extend a TON of grace to all sorts of immorality and corruption in their ranks…yet they seem to ignore this “clear” “simple” principle and command in Scripture from Paul the Apostle:

    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    Pretty simple meaning above, hard to loophole that one, but CC and many others do…which further illustrates the Selective Fundamentalism that is the bulk of our Evangelical Church Systems these days.

  141. In Calvary Chapel, the congregation is not even considered the church. It is only the leadership that is recognized and moreover really just the senior pastor. And I agree with you that they better clean up their act quick or don’t bother calling themselves a church. I agree it is very hypocritical.

  142. Alex, is that fundamentalist or hypocrisy?

    I’m not a Fundy:) but there are plenty of Charismatics and others that are against homosexuals and ignore sins their own camp.

  143. But I wouldn’t necessarily put this under the umbrella of fundamentalism. Legalism yes, but not fundamentalism.

  144. Q, just curious. You said you are not a fundy? Do you mind if I ask what you like to refer to yourself as? Previously you mentioned that fundamentalism is orthodoxy plus separation. I don’t mind this definition. The “separation” may cause people some trouble. To me it means that the believers, the called out ones the ecclesia are to be different We are to be separate (Holy) from the world. And primarily because of our love for one another. This is why I identify myself as a fundy.

  145. Disclaimer:  I support in no way the Quiver Full O’Judgement or Fetus Wallpaper Theory.  Having said that, here is a little-known fact I ran across when researching contraceptive methods many (many) moons ago.  
     
    The PDR (Physician’s Desk Reference) is an encyclopedia (published annually I believe) detailing prescription drugs currently on the market.  Under multiple brands of birth control pills, it delineated 3 mechanisms of action:  
    1. Prevents ovulation
    2. Changes cervical mucous to make things difficult for the swimmers
    3. Prevents implantation of fertilized egg
     
    The 3rd mechanism was unacceptable to us.  (Two doctors denied it did that, even though I saw it in black and white).  Dunno if that’s still how the pills work, but I encourage you to look up your drug of choice. I make no judgement upon others’ reproductive choices, and there are many reasons a woman may need to be on birth control pills. But, I believe everyone should be equipped to make an informed decision.

  146. ru486, the morning after pill prevents implantation of a fertilized egg.

  147. Julianne, I am confused. This is what your wrote on your blog:

    “I have long ditched my home school mom uniform, the denim jumper. I refuse to go to state-run Christian homeschooling conferences whose conference leaders get to hand-select vendors and speakers based on their approved religious agenda. So as I continue to teach our last two kiddos at home, those destructive religious-agenda influences play no part in our homeschooling anymore”

    As I said, I am not familiar with the homeschooling movement but this anti-homeschooling movement that you are blogging about seems to indicate that religious-agenda influences play no part in our homeschooling anymore.

    With this in mind, I am really curious exactly what you are teaching your last two kiddos at home. To me if you were to remove all religious influence, you would be by default teaching your children atheism exactly what is taught in public school.

  148. Andrew – Would you go to a conference that you knew had false doctrine/teaching? That’s why I won’t go. The pillars of the homeschool movement buy into Reconstructionist ideals: Patriarchy, Full-Quiver, etc. Their teachings are all over the homeschool conventions. They invite Doug Wilson of Vision Forum to be keynote speaker, etc. They invite speakers from HSLDA – roots in Reconstructionism. Kevin Swanson is Reconstructionist – he’s the head of the Colorado homeschool group, he speaks at these conventions – he’s the embedded baby dude. They hand-select their speakers and vendors who follow same dangerous belief system.

    You said: As I said, I am not familiar with the homeschooling movement but this anti-homeschooling movement that you are blogging about seems to indicate that religious-agenda influences play no part in our homeschooling anymore.

    I don’t think you are understanding me. There is dangerous teaching going on and dangerous materials being sold at those conventions. The dangerous teaching/materials is what I refuse to bring into my home. Just because I don’t go to a conference that has false teachers doesn’t mean I stop teaching my children bible at home or get rid of all Christian curricula. Just as in all things, you have to sift through and discern. There is still good Christian curricula out there.

  149. Hannah said: I bought some curriculum from a couple of men -forget their company name (I think we talked about this before) the first name was Doug something. Something seemed off. I thought at the time it was the Calvanistic approach- well, much more to say but it has been awhile and I may not have my facts straight….Many of these kids were really controlled by their moms-especially the boys.

    This would probably be either Doug Wilson or Doug Phillips – – both Reconstructionist and Patriarchal.

  150. Julie Anne- Yes that was them. I think we discussed that already, right?

  151. Julie Anne- I think Andrew is misunderstanding. You helped me out with the Pearls. I had all their books and DVD’s, and it was pointed out to me that they went beyond spanking their kids.
    I guess you have to be a solid believer to discern good from bad with the Homeschool movement. At the time I was clueless.

  152. Julie Anne – as a fellow homeschooler I completely agree with and understand the distinction you are making. There are those who homeschool because of varying conviction about lifestyles,convictions and poor schooling choices locally. and then there are those who buy into the whole “Agenda” of the quiverful, courting, specialty diets etc. It is frightening and nauseating. And it’s all rooted in Pride and Power. They think they’re holier than thou, and are looking for power – hence the popping out of babies every year to build an Army of “right thinking (ie: brainwashed) kids to take over and bring about the Kingdom of God.
    Are you familiar with the website http://www.thatmom.com ?? She has alot of great articles and podcasts that go into great detail about these movements within the homeschooling community.

  153. There are as many different ideas about homeschooling as there are parents. I am a firm believer in homeschooling. Does anyone remember when public school was a good thing?

  154. We might have discussed them, Hannah.

    Marie: Yes, I know Karen (thatmom.com). She and I have communicated a bit. Another wonderful source is Cindy of Under Much Grace blog (http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/).

    Gary – I actually remember when they opened each day with a prayer in public school – probably 1973. I don’t know if this was out of the ordinary or what, but I remember it.

  155. #141 – Alex

    David Rosales and many in Calvary Chapel rail on Gays and many CC pastors have actively campaigned for Prop 8 in California. I don’t see that as being right when they tolerate so much abuse and corruption in their own Camp.

    I understand what you are saying Alex, but don’t think 2 wrongs make a right. I know and love some people who identify as homosexual, but God’s word clearly says it is a sin, so by the state condoning homosexuality through civil unions or gay marriage, they are condoning a behavior that God says is immoral…

    And I do believe there is an agenda with the more radical elements of the homosexual movement – The governor in CO is about to sign a civil unions bill in which the Democratic leadership refused to put in any protections for religious institutions, etc. If it was just about love, why did they refuse these amendments?

    Homosexuality is being taught in schools as just another lifestyle as valid as heterosexuality and that is causing a lot of confusion for kids…and it’s no accident. There is curriculum put out by homosexual organizations to spread this propaganda in schools and many kids are being caught up in the crosshairs.

  156. NARCing for Jesus, my Pastor is true,
    Striving to please Him in all that I do;
    Looking for sinners, proud hearted, that’s me,
    This is the pathway of kudos for me.

    O Pastor, Lord and Master, I give myself to Thee,
    For Thou, in Thy position, didst tell me how to be.
    I own no other Savior, my heart shall be Thy throne.
    And now I’ll try, henceforth to spy, O Chuck, for Thee alone.

    It’s tired and I’m getting late.

  157. “ru486, the morning after pill prevents implantation of a fertilized egg.”

    Yup. As do the common, mainstream, everybody-is-on-them, bcp’s I researched. If ovulation and fertilization are prevented as intended by the first 2 mechanisms, great. But, it is a stated fact in the PDR that another thing they do is make the uterine lining non-receptive to implantation.

    I don’t intend to start a debate on contraception, but since we were on the subject of reproductive stuff I was compelled to share what I learned and encourage people to look up in the PDR any drugs they take. Again, this was a while ago, but these same drugs are still in use today. Rant over.

  158. I heart Sheck, I concur with your PDR reference. We found this as well and changed our ways, so to speak. ;)

  159. Andrew, to answer your question;

    “Q, just curious. You said you are not a fundy? Do you mind if I ask what you like to refer to yourself as? Previously you mentioned that fundamentalism is orthodoxy plus separation. I don’t mind this definition. The “separation” may cause people some trouble. …”

    At one time fundamentals and evangelicals basically believed the same things, then science seemed to challenge biblical beliefs, and so there was a rift, evangelicals said we will embrace scientific facts, not fearing facts to overthrow the word of God (although science keeps changing their facts) and fundamentals said we don’t need no science :) and separated from it.

    Sounds simple enough but not so.

    Incomes people like Billy graham who work with groups that fundamentals find unorthodox, like sending “new believers” back into the Roman Catholic Church, so they separate from groups or people they find unorthodox or working with people or groups they believe unorthodox.

    So now the fundamentals are separate from science and certain groups, but evangelicals like CC embrace both.

    Fundamentals kind of have a self defeating belief because pretty soon they separate from everyone including themselves.

    Evangelical used to mean the bible was the final authority for life and practice, but now everyone claims to be evangelical (even those who do not believe it is the word of God) so it seems to mean nothing, it’s been hijacked.

    So have all fundamentals denied scientific fact (although it keeps changing)? No. Are all fundamentals self defeating? No.

    Fundamentals look at the wacko stuff going on in evangelical church and the ecumenism and say ‘we told you if you embraced this stuff (did not separate) you would end up this way…’

    So, you asked “you mind if I ask what you like to refer to yourself as?” Because of my understanding of the state of the church, I would identify myself as a bible believing Christian who loves truth, facts and does not fear science or archaeology, etc. (the more the better) because God’s word is true and will not be found wanting. I also do not fear things of the world (e.g. rock and roll…) but do not want to be mastered by any.

    I also agree that being holy is being separate but not being a hermit or unaware :)

  160. Thanks for the back-up, Grateful. All 3 are also recognized on WebMD. Interestingly, Planned Parenthood only lists the first 2 mechanisms. I am dying to make a ROTFLOL-worthy joke right now about your last line but will abstain (hehe), following Andrew’s model of discretion over not sharing his Chuck dream (yet…. :-).

    Can’t remember the original cast we assembled on another thread (for the film version of Alex’s saga), but I’m thinking we need to add Jezzy B to the line-up since she has become a main player. Anne Hathaway perhaps? She could pull off Snarkastic Firecracker, but I don’t know if I can buy her as a mother of 7. (Holy cow, Jezzy, I’m in awe.)

  161. Too much fun going on tonight:

    Grateful: “changed our ways” haha

    And this: I am dying to make a ROTFLOL-worthy joke right now about your last line but will abstain (hehe), following Andrew’s model of discretion over not sharing his Chuck dream (yet…. .

    And Snarkastic Firecracker? LOL – I am a redhead

    7 kids – yea, for real. Maybe Alex has snooped on my FB and can vouch.

  162. 7 wow, how many is a quiverfull :)

  163. Sheck-

    Does that mean that those who have used BCP’s will have thousands of “aborted” children they will meet in heaven?

    Marie- I dont recall your participation here, so if it is your first time-welcome!

    Gary-I am happy I sent my kids back to public school in High School.
    I took them out of public school in elementary because my CC friends told me I was selling them to the devil, and our Christian school was nothing short of a nightmare.I have shared that before early on here, so I will spare the details. I would have homeschooled them both early on, but I thought I woudl have to spend all day teaching them myself and didnt think I could do it (I wish my homeschool mom friends would have explained to me that this was not the case—as it turned out many who boasted about being homeschool moms sent their kids to a local “homeschool school” for the tough classes like Mathand science and had I known there was aplace to help with these subjects, I may have made the decision to homeschool.

    I homeschooled one of my kids briefly because she was bullied in her Christian school and the administration was doing nothing about it.

    My kids flourished in public high school. My kids got into colleges they never would have if they stayed in Christian school, based on where the kids are getting accepted that have graduated there. The teachers in public school have Masters and are so much more professional and experienced than the Christian school. Much more to say but it would take up too much space!

    I think the CC’s make you believe that we have no control over our kids.
    The CC Pastors do not teach the fathers their responsibility at home to be the spiritual leader. I believe that is why there are so many dominant Christian moms. The CC Pastors set it up so that THEY are the head of the home. If the parents are guiding their kids spiritually, we can send them to a public school and they can be a light in darkness.

  164. PS. Along the way in my Public school experience, I have met Christian teachers who are there because they believe we need Christian teachers in the public school system. It would be a lot easier for them to teach at a Christian school, but God has called them to make a difference in a child’s life in the public school system. I can think of 3 teachers in particular that my kids had in public school and they were far more gracious, kind and professional than most of the teachers they had in Christian school. In fact there was more hypocrisy in their Christian school than one can imagine, which could have permanently turned them away from their faith. (it took much time to undo the damage).

    I now make it a point if the Lord leads me into a conversation with a mom contemplating Christian school (especially if it is one connected to a CC) that they really ought to pray where the Lord will have their kids.and not let others scare them away from public school.

  165. One more (because I am so passionate about the subject!).

    There are many kids that the enemy plants in the Christian schools that can teach our kids all about s+x, drugs, etc. My son saw photos from another kids cellphone. Those images will stay with him. He was only 11 or so. Because the church/school wants to stay hush hush, things brought to their attention about kids elicit behavior does not produce the results a mother would expect,( let alone in a place that supposedly honors the Lord) yet other kids get severely punished. Hypocrisy…the kids see this and know this. Some kids are protected because their parents work for the school or the church. Favoritism runs rampant. There is not an equal playing field.

  166. Q @ 162,

    So if I read you correctly, your definition of fundamentals is those that have separated from other evangelicals because of their unorthodox beliefs and also have separated from Science in general.

    What is fascinating to me is that when you look at things in completely reverse. If you are not separating you are being ecumenical and if you embrace science as it is being taught today you will embrace evolution in some form. Ecumenicalism in its fullest form leads to one world religion. Evolution in its fullest form leads to atheism. Put these two together and you get one massive kingdom for the anti-Christ. Something I have been pondering lately.

    If what you are saying is true that the fundamentals are self defeating than what exactly are people worried about and giving fundamentals such a hard time? The agenda of Julliane in particular seems to go beyond abuse issues to one dealing with reconstructionism. If Julliane feels that this is where the real problem lies than I really encourage her to read your #131 post. This one world religion with the anti-Christ could infact be the direct result of the reconstructionism that Julliane is warning us about that is being put in place. CC could be central to this because of their gnosticism. Only with gnosticism taken to its logical conclusion could a church pull the wool over everyone’s eyes.

  167. I am following the Matt 18 process regarding the Chuck dream. I need to first approach Chuck in my dream. :)

  168. It’s reverse discrimination Andrew. It’s a mild form of bullying. We used to be able to joke among ourselves but everyone is on edge these daze.

  169. Gary,
    You have a good perspective. I know I am on edge myself but you are right it would be good to just lighten up. You know my wife tells me my sense of humor is amazing and I make her laugh all the time. When I look back at CC days this was something I could never do. I was never able to have my own personality in CC. It was all about the pastor and his personality, his visions and his dreams. Bottom line, It is all about worship of the Chuck. BTW, your poem brought some desperately needed comic relief for me. I should have read it before I went to bed last night. I had a hard time sleeping. I’m afraid to approach Chuck again. :)

  170. If I know I’m among friends who accept me just as I am without one flea I can be myself. I have a hard time dealing with some issues. I like to write and sometimes it comes out sarcastic. Last week I wrote some lines for another blog but by the time I was ready to post it was too late. Someone mentioned Larry Norman on a blog and I wrote this:
    Church was filled with end time scares
    and everyone was sure that they’d get theirs.
    I wish we’d all been steady.
    ‘Imminent’ was changed to ‘soon’
    and rapture fever spread through the commune.
    We wished He’d come already.
    There’s no time to plan ahead,
    within a week we’d all be dead.
    The Pastor spoke. We followed him.
    How could we have been so dim?
    There’s still time to change your mind.
    If we grow up we won’t be left behind.

  171. Gary, You really got some real writing talent. I still like that Larry Norman song but it just goes to show you how times have changed.

    Speaking of Larry Norman, I was told that he was responsible for bringing rock and roll and contemporary Christian music into the church. But then I have heard others say that Calvary Chapel was responsible for this. And then I have heard others say that Larry Norman was part of Calvary Chapel but than he left. If you are right that David Di Sabatino does a documentary on Chuck the huckster I hope he mentions Larry Norman in all of this. I always liked Larry but don’t really know the story.

  172. thanks for the welcome…..this is my first time jumping into the conversation.
    Hannah – I also relate completely to your feelings on Christian schools. I grew up in one through the 8th grade and it was scarring. I cannot reccomend Christian schools to anyone because of my experiences.

    for the purposes of full disclosure – my husband is an asst. pastor at a small CC church. But we attended a former CC church which exhibited many of the abuses and behaviors warned about here. I also grew up in a very spritual abusive church (the one the school was a part of), and so I am highly sensitive to and on the lookout of those sorts of behaviors in any church we attend. My opinion is that any church can become abusive when the leadership is not held properly accountable. We currently do not see any of these things happening in our current church. we are small and like it that way. Our pastor speaks frequently of wanting members to approach him if they think he’s heading a wrong direction, and people take him up on it, and he receives it graciously. He is one who walks in humility and service, and turns away anything that seems to head toward “pastor worship” etc. It’s actually refreshing……however, I have great concerns for many other CC churches and pastors who ignore the Servant Leadership model of scripture and instead take an Authoritarian/Dictator stance instead. And so that is very briefly who I am and what I may bring to future discussions. :)

  173. Larry wasn’t the first to try Christian rock but he was the first to succeed. He predated Love Song by a few years and he had no ties to CC. I don’t think he ever did a show there. By today’s standards his first album wasn’t very good but back then it was revolutionary.

  174. Marie,

    Thanks for joining the conversation. As the wife of an assistant pastor in a CC church addressing the concerns on this blog, curious have you read Larry Taylor booklet on how to be an assistant pastor?

  175. Larry had 2 objectives. First to reach the rock and roll world with the gospel and second to wrangle Christians.

  176. Welcome, Marie! Good to have you here.

  177. Nope, and neither has my husband. Also he does all the mid-week preaching, which was revolutionary to us because at our former church the pastor would video tape sermons rather than let someone else fill the pulpit!

  178. Marie, I am really glad you are here. Has your husband read the “distinctives”? My understanding to be affiliated with CC you need to agree with them.

  179. Andrew, that’s is a good point. How far does a Christian separate, some (not all) in the in the fundamental camp pushed separation until they were not open to new information and found fault in everything and everyone until they were separating from each other.

    On the other hand some (not all) in the evangelical camp by not separating have become ecumenical to the point of ignoring scripture and embracing many bad doctrines.

  180. Grateful, is it a corrupt barrel that turns the apples bad or a bad apple that ruins the other apples?

    I think in CC it is both. The CC form of government turns some good pastors bad because of no meaningful accountability and also attracts the authoritarian type of pastor for the same reason.

    It becomes to tempting when it is realized you can control everything.

  181. Q, You said it well. The ecumenical ism that is biblical is found in John 17. This does not include everyone but rather the “called out” ones.

  182. That was great Gary! You’re like a Christian Weird Al. (Weird Gary just doesn’t have the same ring…)

    Hannah said: “Does that mean that those who have used BCP’s will have thousands of “aborted” children they will meet in heaven?”

    I think there will be some, if that’s how baby heaven works. We all know couples who have had “oopsies”, which happen when all 3 mechanisms fail (or user error), so it’s reasonable to assume that there may be occasions where the first two fail but not the 3rd.

    Your 166, last paragraph, was so right on about the weak male/dominant mom and the need for our kids to practice being salt and light from a young age, not just when they leave the nest and get out into the “real world”.

    Andrew, I commend your Matt 18 efforts even in Dreamland. I hope there can be reconciliation. If you do get to talk to him again though, be prepared for him to bring it up in real life’s next week’s sermon and say he tried to reach out to you in your dream and never got your dream-mail but don’t touch God’s anointed bc God can …er…umm… do more to you than he can.

    I miss OC.

  183. I heart sheck,

    I hope Chuck does bring it up in his sermon in real life. Let the little dog bark.

  184. yes we have read and agreed to the distinctives.

  185. Q – I completely agree with this statemtent -” The CC form of government turns some good pastors bad because of no meaningful accountability and also attracts the authoritarian type of pastor for the same reason.

    It becomes to tempting when it is realized you can control everything.”

    This is true in other churches as well. A problem we ran into though with an Congregational run church was that nothing could get done because there was never a concensus, and always oppositional groups creating chaos……

    Unfortunately there is no perfect church. You have to find one that is preaching the Word ,and actually doing it/following it as well. Our pastor has said from the pulpit – that if this church starts going down a bad road and is not willing to turn from it, he would hope the church closes because people wouldn’t stay and allow it to go that route – that they would vote with their feet essentially.

    I however not naive in thinking that power and pride can seep in and he begins to change his tune. if that happens then we would have to consider stepping down and out. But at this junction he is willing to hear correction and suggestion from my husband and we are comfortable continuing the path we are on.

  186. Maria @ 175

    You mentioned that you are a small church and you like it that way. When I read the distinctives, I sense an implied concept that when you are faithful with few God will increase your numbers. Also that it is God who will add to your numbers daily, etc….This idea is propagated throughout the distinctives. So my question to you and your husband is that if you do find growth in your church, how will you handle it?

    Currently you mentioned that the pastor welcomes all feedback from anyone. But if and when the church gets large and there is an assumption in the distinctives that it will than curious how will your husband handle this? The distinctives seem to indicated that the Moses Model structure of delagation would than occur. Since you agree with the distinctives, I am assuming you agree with the Moses Model structure. I hate to pray for you that your church will not grow but at same time but I don’t get the impression that you or your husband could ever handle church growth at least not in the CC construct.

  187. Marie, good point.

    It seems the Episcopal, Presbyter, and Congregational forms of government have all worked and all failed.

    CC form exalts the Senior pastor (the one really in charge) to an unbiblical position over God’s people and has no meaningful accountability.

    Which ever form of government a church takes it should have proper checks and balances and the congregation should have more choices than to keep quiet or vote with your feet.

  188. Morning y’all:

    Welcome Marie! It’s great to have you here. I made the edit to your comment and did a little Spring cleaning around here.

    If you don’t mind me asking, how did you hear about this site? Have you seen any of the abuse problems that have been discussed here?

    Having you here can put you in a very vulnerable spot as a CC pastor’s wife because so many here have strong opinions about the church governance and the abuses that have occurred under CC leadership. I hope you will stick around and share from your perspective.

    Maude the Mauderator will be watching, you can be sure :) Carry on!

  189. You’ve been “Maude”erated! Love it LOL :-)

  190. Alex, I liked this reference:

    The Mod Squad

  191. Yeah, Maud but we don’t attack people. After reading so much about how CC treats women I have a soft spot for them.

  192. UGM? What’s that?

  193. I’m with Gary on that one.

  194. UGM=You Got Mail

  195. Oh, thanks, Grateful. Nothing in my inbox yet . . . . . tapping foot . . .

  196. or it could mean you got Mauderated.

  197. Thank you, Gary. I will tuck that one away for future reference, if needed.

  198. Julianne @ 151

    If I remember correctly it was my ex CC pastor that flew out to Colorado with his wife to check out personally some home schooling programs as a model for their church school. I am suspecting it was the folks you mentioned here.

  199. By the way, thanks Alex and i heart Shreck. My wife laughed at ‘Weird Gary’.

  200. Marie- As I read your post I was thinking..”hope things dont change when/if the church grows”.

    It’s difficult for any person, when they are admired so, to not let it get to their head.
    Most of the sermons are composed by people other than the Sr. Pastor when the church gets large and the Pastor stops relying on the Holy Spirit.

    Does that bug anyone else when the Pastor does not do their own research and write their own sermons?

  201. Sheck-Getting ready for Pesach?

  202. I think when you are in a church where the pastor will never know who you are and you will never even get a chance to meet his family, wife, etc.. I think the church is way too big. Its time to start a new church and we don’t need one more church building either. For goodness sakes, meet in peoples houses if you have to. I am just tired of building campaign after campaign taking all of Jesus’ money to build this gigantic infrastructure and for what reason? I’m baffled.

  203. Marie @ 175

    I was also raised in a calvary chapel school & church (costa mesa). There was much brainwashing & corruption. In fact, I went through a period of life after school when I considered whether or not I wanted to be a Christian.

    Not out of self righteousness or anything like that…but because the core of the church governance & leadership were so deceitful, I simply didn’t want to give the appearance of ‘supporting’ those management choices. We all make mistakes, no denying that, but why would I willingly choose to support an organization that perpetually makes ungodly decisions for the good of ‘their cause’?

    You can imagine my relief, when I finally ‘came out of her’ and dug into the word myself…to learn you could be a believer without following the poor leadership style of certain big/celebrity churches. Quite the eye opener.

    I visit the mother ship from time to time. And every time I do, without fail, it is more lavish in décor & atmosphere. More and more like a production, and less like a church.

    I tend to be uncomfortable in large churches now, and seek smaller ones when possible.

  204. Andrew: Your 12:19 about ex-pastor going to Colorado to check out homeschooling. Let me tell you, if Kevin Swanson is in charge – I get this creepy dead embedded embryo feeling all over me. The guy creeps me out. That I called him out publicly in numerous places. He posted a response citing a 30-yr old study from an author and refused to name credible sources.

    Oh, and on his Facebook page, I questioned him asking for sources. My comment was removed. So the next time I commented there, I also mentioned that I was taking a screenshot of it and if I found that my comment was missing, that I would be posting it on my blog. Guess what – it is still there – lol. But once again, the issue was never dealt with. He refuses to name any sources. He doesn’t have any sources. It’s scientifically impossible and he knows it, but he’s to proud to admit it. He only made up this story to further his agenda. He makes me sick. And it sickens me even more that people still blindly follow him.

    Ok, regarding the Homeschool Movement discussion we were having earlier. Someone sent me an e-mail yesterday and used the word “sub-culture.” I think that might be an easier way to describe what I am against. There is a dangerous sub-culture within the homeschooling community. This is what is commonly labeled as the Homeschool Movement.

  205. Andrew: I was studying up on Prestonwood Baptist as it is a story I’ve been following on my blog and it is one of the biggest mega-churches in the Nation. I was surprised to see I think two or three Calvary Chapel churches listed in the top 20 largest churches in US.

  206. Julie Anne, I am putting some of this together now. There is theology and than there is culture. I think the sub-culture you are referring to does sound creepy. Now that I am learning a little bit more about the theology that sounds creepy as well. I think Q gave a great lesson for us in the different theologies. Calvary Chapel’s theology however is very difficult to pin point because they waffle on so many things and it varies from church to church but their culture seems consistent. The culture can best be described as ABUSIVE. There is no other way around this.

  207. Andrew – The “sub-culture” to which I am referring is both culture AND theology. They are both there, both destructive. Now you helped me to define the Homeschool Movement: The Homeschool Movement is a subculture within the homeschooling community which presents a dangerous culture and theology. Ok, I think that definition is pretty good, but I have to say that the lines can be easily easily blurred because families can take on certain aspects of the culture or certain aspects of the theology without even realizing it. Ie, we bought into certain aspects, but not all, but in buying into those parts, we helped it to continue and grow.

  208. Now I do believe in Christianity there is a sub-culture. This is the church. We should be different (salt and light) but how this actually manifests itself is about as hard to define as anything. I think the theology that is dangerous is this Vision crap like on the visionforum.com. It seems to be all these guys have a vision for your family, a Vision for American and ultimately a vision for the world to change into their vision for the Kingdom of Earth on heaven. Yep, I think my mind is made up. sounds very scary. I am not afraid of old Calvinism but this new Calvinism is the stuff that is freaking me out.

  209. whoops… Meant Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, not the the other way. But mine as well be a Kingdom of Earth. These guys are building their man kingdoms here on Earth.

  210. You know it kind of bothers me a bit when a CC pastor type shows up here and discloses their CC affiliation.

    First, Andrew, the Larry Taylor pamphlet was never commissioned by the church nor was it approved to use church funds to publish it. In fact, Chuck never desired it. Larry took funds from bible college revenues without permission and published it..just like his lovely book of poems. I had the personal blessing of destroying thousand of those suckers whenSteve Mays and Chuck fired Larry and we needed the space in the MHS bookstore for other materials people actually cared to read.

    The next approach here seems to be “ok…well have you read and approve the distinctives?” IMO, if this site to to gain eyes in CC toward considering the issues brought to light and if reform is needed, the it is done not for it’s own sake, but the sake of scriptural obedience and for the sheep, then”……do we have to conduct what is in effect an adhominen attack at the outset.

    P.s. I liked the black background since it caused to to lose part of my sight. In this way, I can now sue the little perp AND as a side benefit, the abuse I can’t see is the abuse I don’t have to worry about.

    Oh…hello Marie.

  211. This Visionary theology became popular in the 1890’s. I don’t know what they called it. The world was mostly at peace and the secular world along with many Christians started hoping the world would keep getting better until we achieved utopia. WWI completely destroyed that notion.
    The world is made up of sub cultures and sub sub cultures, etc. The model of Christianity in the new testament is house churches. When persecution comes to the U S we’ll have to go back to that.

  212. I welcome Marie and any and all CCers and former CCers.

  213. I trust Sheck’s take. He’s a truth-teller and I accept that above.

    We’ll have to amend this article to make sure we reflect Sheck’s input above.

    What is bizarre is that I’ve heard and seen the actions and mindset described in Larry Taylor’s book…but it is different to me in light of Sheck’s take on what went down.

  214. Sheck, I’m assuming you were serious about this part:

    “First, Andrew, the Larry Taylor pamphlet was never commissioned by the church nor was it approved to use church funds to publish it. In fact, Chuck never desired it. Larry took funds from bible college revenues without permission and published it..just like his lovely book of poems. I had the personal blessing of destroying thousand of those suckers whenSteve Mays and Chuck fired Larry and we needed the space in the MHS bookstore for other materials people actually cared to read.”

  215. That is correct as a result of an audit I did of CCBC books in 1995 during my Thanksgiving vacation up at the kids camp. I could write a book on LT and his “ways” but that is for another day. Let’s just say that the Larry situation was tragic and very complicated and classically involved CS’s predisposition to not confront people (assuming you are not a person Alex) or deal with “issues.” Hence Mays helping with the firing. Tragic used not in the sense that Larry was a victim. the guy was a punk and coward as I then saw it.

  216. Sheck, since Alex trusts you, why does it bother you when CCers post here?

  217. It doesn’t bother me at all. What bothers me is that it seems at times we jump on them when they arrive. I get it as abused people want to lash out at those associated with the abuser. But since I beleive this blog is to minister to the abused as well as to seek reform to abusive churches or defective “models,” conducting an inquisition of a new CC poster at the outset seems contrary to those stated purposes. Even if a CC’er is still drinking the kool aid, the fact they come on here may be a Holy Spirit appointment. After all, having experienced 2 cults in my lifetime, reprogramming takes time and venues such as this can and should be a part of the healing AND reprogramming process.

  218. Thanks for weighing in Sheck.

    Jeff is one of the most candid guys I’ve ever gotten to know. He’s not perfect, but he is a truth-teller, and I heard that from guys who don’t necessarily like him and aren’t his buddies, so that says a lot.

  219. Besides, I believe scripture supports the proposition that if you do not absolutely love Steve Lawrence, especially “go away little girl”, you positively cannot be saved.

    Gary: I am not trustworthy even if Alex sez so. I am a secret plant of Pastor Chuck and Roger Wing.

  220. Sheck, LOL. Not buying that one :-)

    If you were a plant, you did a terrible job :lol:

  221. Sheck, that is very helpful to know; but like Alex, “I’ve heard and seen the actions and mindset described in Larry Taylor’s book…” as well.

    I think it should be noted that Sheck says Chuck didn’t want the booklet published. Can anyone else confirm what Sheck is saying, per chance? (And I don’t mean “I heart Sheck”
    or “Motel 6,” either.)

    Still, since I’ve seen the mindset and actions, as well as heard of them in many other CC’s, I’m not sure just how much weight I’d give to Chuck not wanting it published. What I mean is that these were things that Larry felt were taught him by Chuck, and Chuck may have had the good sense to know that it’s better to pass that stuff along under the radar, person to person, and not have it in print for others to know what you are doing.

    Most people know that to encourage your assistant pastors to be “narcs for Jesus,” to spy on others and give detailed accounts of all that is going on, is not something one should admit to publicly … cause it’s wrong. I believe Larry when he said he learned these things from Chuck. I believe him because so many others have learned these same behaviors and thoughts, very well.

    I’d be careful to present this with both those notions … imho.

  222. Sheck, I didn’t say “trustworthy”…I said “truth-teller” and “candid” ;-)

  223. BTW, “I heart Sheck” is not Sheck, but rather a female admirer of his.

  224. I agree with Sheck’s 221.

    A “plant”? Oh… okay, whatever you say, Sheckie boy!

    Now that we’ve decided the color of the carpet in here, maybe you can lead in the choice of music? I’m sure someone can work on our lighting choices, as well. And then there will be the arrangement of chairs … ;)

  225. And you shouldn’t be able to post on here unless you listen to this:

    Grateful. Have to admit some truth in that a the “leader,” let’s stand what suits his purpose even if not endorsing it. To wit, the “2nd” book authored by Romaine. Try reading that one some time.

  226. Hey Grateful. lay off my fellow hebe..the Sheckster. And Alex..he was referring to a comment made by Gary re: trustworthy, not yours. Can’t you read you gun toting redneck. Does it always have to be about you?

  227. Mot said, “And Alex..he was referring to a comment made by Gary re: trustworthy, not yours. Can’t you read you gun toting redneck. Does it always have to be about you?”

    I don’t “tote” my gun…and yes :-)

  228. And while I’m at it, when will you change your picture? For crying out loud, you look like a representative for a mortuary.

  229. I have to agree with Motl the Tailor regarding Alex’s mortuary picture. BTW, Alex, why haven’t you given me a picture yet?

  230. I tend to believe Jeff when it comes to the Larry Taylor situation. I can believe that Chuck didn’t want the book, but I have to wonder if that was after I exposed the book on the Internet (around mid to late 1996)? I can’t imagine Larry publishing the book completely on his own and Chuck allowing it to go on forever, even given Chuck’s desire to “not confront”.

    I think it’s also possible to find similar things in Romaine’s book although perhaps less extreme? Was it written as a corrective to Larry’s book.

    I do believe firmly that Larry was teaching what he thought Chuck wanted him to teach on the subject. And the fact that Chuck put him over the Bible College at least gave him some credibility in CC.

    All in all, thanks Jeff for filling in more of the behind the scenes details. If we are going to be critics then at least we should be honest ones.

  231. Jeff, I am fairly certain (need to dig through my attic to be sure) that I bought the Taylor booklet at the Chapel Store. Does that jive with your account? I am very sure I didn’t buy it at CCBC since the only time I ever went there was for the graduation of a friend.

    I feel sorta bad for this friend who years later told me that my friendship with him cast a shadow over him with CCCM who he felt didn’t help him get a church of his own after graduation due to our friendship. I did let it be known that he was not an insider source for me but just a friend (actually more the brother of a close friend). I believe there were other issues that kept him from being called as a CC pastor.

  232. The one thing I will say about Larry Taylor is that a lot of the kids at CCBC felt that he was their pastor and were very upset about his firing. I remember some parts of that from the graduation class which happened just right after that. (Part of the story in my previous post).

  233. Please note that I didn’t and don’t feel bad that my friend didn’t become a CC pastor, just that he felt I hurt him. If my friendship kept him from being a CC pastor, I think it’s a great thing for him. Just he was still drinking the Kool-Aid.

  234. Sheck @ 214 “do we have to conduct what is in effect an adhominen attack at the outset”

    Since this looks like it is addressed to me, I will state this. This entire website is called Calvarychapelabuse.com. I think anybody who comes here from a CC affiliate should expect to be challenged. If the stated purpose of this website was for another reason other than confront the abuse than maybe Alex should rename his website Calvarychapelreform.com. But he hasn’t done that. But for what its worth I do apologize to Marie if I was too aggressive or if I have offended her in my questioning.

    Second, I never really believed that the Larry Taylor pamphlet was ever approved to be put in writing. But I do agree with Alex that this is exactly what was taught to him by Chuck Smith. The booklet appears to be so sincere but at same time so off the wall that I could see why Chuck wouldn’t want it in writing. I suspect though that Larry actually tamed down some of the things Chuck taught him to make it more palatable to read before he published it. I can only imagine what his first or second drafts of this booklet looked like.

  235. Well I am off to bed. Will see if I meet Chuck in my dreams again.

  236. Wow. To answer the original question: yes, I was narced. Many times. I think I’m being narced to this day.

    But doesn’t this happen in every church? I’ve never seen a more malicious group of back-biters in my life. I closed my original FB account because of narcing.

    But in my experience, it wasn’t the Assistant Pastor, it’s the congregants. Who is this Larry Taylor guy? What a dingleberry.

    “Tell the pastor everything”??? Why??? Does he think the Pastor really care? Obviously not.

    “Ahh… Chuck, I think Bob Grenier is beating on his kids?”
    “Is he a Calvinist?”
    “Not anymore.”
    “Oh well then, not a problem!”

  237. Thanks Andrew. We disagree but let me leave it at that. As to Chuck teaching Larry or anyone else for that matter, the only teaching I saw up close from Chuck was from the pulpit. While I know this statement will arouse some disputation and maybe hostility perhaps, Chuck thentruly believed that ministry and leadership was caught (through Holy Spirit), not taught. In 11 years the only thing he taught me was to purchase better quality toilet paper for the conference center. For a while I was mad at him as guys like Taylor vilified me publicly and I did have more than my share of mistakes, but Chuck never interceded or taught me diddly . You may not beleive it but there was a time when Chuck ran from the spotlight and despite many people’s expressions to him to share more intimately about his walk and experiences in ministry during sr. Pastor conf’s, etc., he rarely let people behind the curtain to see the wizard. The notion that Chuck directly taught Larry anything is absurd. first Larry was an arrogant ass and wouldn’t listen and secondly, Chuck teaching about ministry and CC Distinctives is akin to himadmitting error…it all to rarely happened and as for me, error admission and some reconciliation took place well after I left CCCM.

  238. Well. catching up on this blog hasn’t done it, so I will resort to a favorite method to fall asleep, like Andrew.

    One abused sheep….two abused sheep…three abused sheep….zzzzzzzzzzz

  239. Thanks Motl. I wasn’t there so you know better. But what doesn’t make sense is how did an entire Bible college get started simply from the pulpit? Did it just magically get organized by Chucks gift of teaching and whoever planned, started, built and ran the entire operation happened by someone “catching” the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Obviously Chuck must of had some hands on directing all this to get this built. no?

  240. Nighty-night, Motl and Andrew.

  241. Don McClure started it at Chuck’s prompting. You have little idea how hands off Chuck could be in running his ministry. I was G M for KWVE for 4 years and the amount of input was less than one hour. Of the programming changes, he directed e on only one…focus being removed and that was a board decision. All other changes he approved of major import, but they were at my prompting…just like running MHS. Sure Chuck had input into CCBC, but people were and would be shocked at how hands off he was.

    Chuck got an idea for a ministry and others like me carried it from there with very little input or feedback from him. For instance, if not for Lance Emma, Calvary Distribution would never have gotten off the ground. same with the kids camp and Jeff Gill. The school with Rolph…on and on.

  242. Motl, I think I am understanding you more. Chuck wasn’t a micro-manager but rather a visionary and delegator I can see that easily. A visionary isn’t going to get caught up in the minutia because its simply beneath their pay grade. However, what I am learning is that if there is something at all that seems to challenge or get in the way of someone’s vision,a visionary will quickly and sometimes forcefully counter it and throw whatever it is under the bus. This is justified by a visionary because they think they are carrying out God’s vision. Chuck had a vision and maybe Larry wasn’t onboard with his vision later on. Could that be why Larry was fired? And what was learned and supposedly “caught” by Larry from the Visionary Chuck seems to have been articulated in this booklet. To me its all about an attitude. Its about the attitude of a visionary and his vision for how the church should look like. Chuck had a vision as recorded in his Harvest Book about having a new name “shepherd” where he would be the shepherd over many flocks. Chuck carried out this vision his entire life but now, he claims he is not a pastor over any of these guys. I don’t get it.

  243. It’s simple Andrew. When it’s feeding time Chuck is a shepherd of shepherds but when it’s weeding time he’s not in charge of grass. It’s not part of his vision so it doesn’t exist. That little country church is no more.

  244. Gary, Its really like this. When it comes to weeding out their own they use the parables of the wheat and the tares. When it comes to weeding out anything that gets in the way of their vision they will yank that sucker (weed) out faster than you can say Brian Broderson.

  245. I can’t say Brian Broderson.

  246. I meant to say faster than you can type Brian Broderson. :)
    No offense to Brian. Just borrowing one of “once a CC guru’s” comments.

  247. bRiAn bRoDeRsOn

  248. Brain Broodersin

  249. sorry

  250. Moses Broderson

  251. Abraham Broderson

  252. Gary. Your cracking me up. :)

    http://www.scotts.com/Roundup

    Scotts Miracle-Gro – There is a new Sheriff in town.

    Kills and prevents weeds and grass.

    Sounds like Calvary Chapel

  253. Little country church on the edge of town.
    do do do do do do do doo
    Grew into a mega church and spread around.
    That Moses Pastor sure does rule.
    And it’s very plain to see
    it’s not the church it used to be.

    Preacher isn’t talkin’ ’bout revival no more.
    He just wants the status quo.
    People aren’t as open as they were before.
    They don’t want to rock the boat.
    And it’s very plain to me;
    it’s not the church it used to be.
    No no no

    -play an instrumental here that BB approves.-

    They’re talkin’ ’bout each other and their evil deeds.
    Puttin’ their own sin aside.
    Fightin’ with each other for the Pastors’ needs.
    That mega church may not survive.
    Long stares, affairs, gloats and lies
    People need to turn around.

    Lookin’ like they lost their vision in their eyes.
    Many just quit comin’ around.
    And I wish they all could see
    it’s not the way it used to be…

    -fade out or split-

  254. Ya know, I think when Chuck looses it Brian will do some weedin’. He’ll be the new sherriff. unless Greg Laurie can pull off a coo. He might be doing that now. Brian isn’t laid back like Chuck is. Heads will roll and I don’t mean down the aisle. lol

  255. coup not coo duh *sips more coffee*

  256. What Motl is saying is what I have seen, I think CS believes in just teaching the word and God will raise up people for ministry whether it is a pastor or starting a book distribution or a music publishing company, and so on and is not real hands on believing the Holy Spirit is leading, when things go bad sometimes he does not get involved like with BG, other times he does like with Keller and CSN, with CSN he could not do a lot because of the loose handling of the start up and Mike had the paper work in his favor, that was a 300 million dollar oversight.

    Doug’s friend may not have been assertive enough because usually it seems if you believe their is a calling to start a church and agree with the distinctives I don’t think you get turned down?

  257. I get the feeling they want to move the operation from West Coast to East Coast and get out of OC since their reputation is fading there. I see Joe Focht as the next Sheriff in town. Just a suspicion since they have both Lance Emma and Don McClure on board there.

  258. I took a long break from posting anything. It was just time for a little break. :-) I missed you guys though…even though I peeped in every now and again. :-) It would be too much to go back and comment on anything specific from any of the comments above so I’ll just share what’s on my heart today.

    I truly like the people on this blog, even though I don’t know you personally and even when I am in complete disagreement with certain comments, I can understand where they came from. A lot of wounding took place in many lives as a result of things that leaders within CC and other organizations claiming to be Christian organizations did. Does God approve of people claiming to know Him and yet using His name to abuse others? Any person being honest with themselves would have to say “No”. Especially since there are many who are afraid to step foot inside a “church” as a result of places like CC and BGBC. Does God approve of organizations that turn people away from wanting anything to do with Him or with anyone “claiming” to know Him? The answer again for the truthful person would have to be “No”….resoundingly so. So it is safe to say that CC and organizations like it will continue to be in the wrong even if thousands of people are held in a trance by their teachings.

    “Held in a trance”? Is that extreme? Well wouldn’t someone have to be in a trance if they read the things that Jesus had to say to the Pharisees and the warnings about the leaven of the Pharisees yet do not recognize that if someone preaches the Word yet continually acts in a way that contradicts the Word, then God is not pleased?

    “Continually acts in a way that contradicts the Word”? Is that extreme? Well how many stories do we see on here and blogs of abuses across the nation and even the world, that are extremely similar? Far more importantly: How many stories on here show that the leaders within CC ignored or tried to bury the abuse in darkness? Does God want abuses buried in darkness? Any truthful person would have to say “No”.

    So to anyone who comes across this blog and does not see the need for it or cannot even speak truth regarding the need for exposing the type of abuse that turns people away from God, ask yourselves this:”Why would you feel that way?” Well consider this: “Christianity” in America is quite often nothing like the true Christianity reflected in the Word of God! There are some places where it is and that is amazing and life-changing, but very often if we match what Christ had to say against what is actually happening, we could probably conclude that Christ would want nothing to do with many of the “churches” in America…but even that the Bible warns us about. If Jesus would declare that He would remove the candlesticks of some of the churches in Revelation which were started within a century of His earthly walk, what would He have to say to “churches” now that probably make the churches in Revelation look like fresh snow in comparison!!!

    The only reason I can see that leadership within any American or even international church would have for not acknowledging that there truly is a problem in CC and that it truly needs to be resolved is this: Fear. The fear would be that if CC is held accountable then they will be held accountable too. Even leaders who love Jesus and love people are probably fearful because perhaps some of the things CC has done may be things agencies like the Justice Department and the IRS may find questionable and if they are seen as abusing their position as a “church” then what kind of pressure will that bring to other churches…even the ones that love Jesus? I understand that fear, but I also know that, like all other fears, it is not from God. It is the fear of man. That always brings a trap! Trusting God means doing things the way He wants them done and leaving the outcomes to Him and looking to Him for safety. Period. Sounds a little extreme? It is. It is tied to faith and not to logic.

    Integrity and character are part of what Jesus represents perfectly. Integrity and character does not allow for ignoring abusive behavior by leaders who claim to know Jesus. Anyone with a love for people and a longing to see people come to know Jesus should actually be upset that an organization where thousands and thousands of people flock is really presenting a hypocritical, religious farce to that flock. People coming out of that organization have used the word “Cult”. The similarities between CC leadership and the Pharisees is startling! Moses model! What does that scream? The Pharisees “sat in Moses’ seat”!!!!

    When Jesus said “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees” does anyone really believe that what He was really saying about them and their hypocrisy was “Ignore them”? Any truthful person knows that the word “beware” means “stay far away from, avoid, keep oneself from and warn others to stay away from and keep others far away from” etc….I didn’t even need a dictionary for that one! :-) If you come to an electrical fence and you see a sign that says “BEWARE”, what would you do?

    There is a legitimate reason why this blog exists. For those of us who participate on this blog though please remember this: There is a legitimate reason why we exist as well! :-) I smiled as I said that because it is a good reason! We were made for God’s good pleasure. We can warn and bring light to things and that is great and we should do it because we have a biblically supported mandate to do it, but at the end of the day we each need to be certain of our individual relationship with Him. None of us can blame any issues with that relationship on CC or any other organization. At the end of the day we all need Jesus personally! I believe that with a certainty so great that no one can convince me otherwise! :-) Yep…I’m one of those! Well what you may mean by “one of those” may be far different from what I mean! :-) I mean this: If it were not for Jesus I would be dead right now and destined for hell. Because of Jesus I have life and peace and hope and truth and grace and love and all types of things that I cannot explain using a lexicon (Yes I went there Doug but only in jest! :-) ) This is my experience with Jesus personally!

    I am convinced about the power of the Cross and the resurrection and that Christ is seated at the right of the Father making intercession for me and that I am considered to be seated with Him in heavenly places…even if I can’t explain in natural terms all that that means! :-) I can explain the peace that comes out of knowing that I belong to Him though. I personally believe that He dragged me out of CC so I could become a grown-up Christian and so all the things that were blinding my eyes could be removed. It is an ongoing process but at least I am no longer stuck in the state of spiritual arrested development that I know for certain I was in and everyone else I knew was in at the CC I left!!!

    My relationship with God is not tied to how abusive organizations represent Him and actually looking back I see that He wanted to show me that it never should be! He showed me the hopelessness of linking their wicked actions to Him. I believe that this is what truly causes more hurt and depression and perhaps even suicides in “religious” cult survivors. If the actions of wicked leaders get tied to God then what hope is there for eternity?

    God is good! I am certain of that. The fact that I am here to write this is proof of that! I am a stronger person today for every trial I have ever gone through in life in general, but only because I look to God for the lesson and the perspective. I am by no means perfect but I am committed to His perfecting process. I say all of this in order to say to each individual on this blog “Hold on to the truth of who God is!” and for those who may need this “Remember your first Love” and for those who never knew Him “He wants a relationship with you”.

    Don’t ever forget that even as you discuss places that are patterning hypocrisy (even while they issue “altar calls”): Jesus is real and truly wants to encounter each person! That can happen wherever you are on your side of the computer. :-) I am going back into my break time. I know I changed the topic. :-) I know I was longwinded. :-) Perhaps the media or the onlooking world may be offended by me saying that ” Every person on the planet needs Jesus desperately! ”
    :-) ….but I truly believe that and if I receive any ridicule whatosever, it is worth it! You are worth it! But most importantly: He is worth it! :-)

  259. Oh before I return to my break here’s my contribution to the Youtube phenom that has hit this thread. Enjoy! :

  260. Maude please help me to post my Youtube link correctly like the brilliant people above! :-) Then moderate anything extra. Cover my excessive Internet inaptitude shame Maude! :-)

    OC: Maude here! Fixed everything. To post YouTube videos here, click on “share” and then “embed.” The code will begin with < iframe . . . . etc

    Maude is groovin' right now to: Jesus is just alright with me . . . kickin' it Jesus style . . . do, do, do" Awesome. Thanks, OC!!!

  261. Overly concerned. Did you steal my sound track from my mp3 player? I listen that song every workout.

  262. Andrew now if that’s not a good example of Koinonia among bloggers I don’t know what is! :-)

  263. The Freak show really is a great CD to work out to. So many good songs on that album.

  264. I think my favorite is “what if I stumble” and then “colored people”

  265. Thanks Maude! You know the Internet was invented by one of them there liberals to confuse the heck out of the Evangelicals ;-) LOL, LOL, LOL….They succeeded with me! ;-) LOL

  266. What if I stumble, what if I fall, what I lose my step and I make fools of us all…..Post them Andrew!

  267. Overly Concerned.
    I am crying now. I am listening to “what if stumbled”. Your kindness to the abused on this blog overly concerned is one of the most genuine expressions of Christian love I have seen.

    I just don’t understand, why the leadership in CC is so utterly non concerned. My heart breaks.

  268. Listening and crying too. I forgot how powerful this song is. Wow.

  269. I have never heard “What if I Stumble.” Thanks, Andrew. I may have to borrow this for my blog. Fantastic lyrics.

  270. Re: Post #13: Reuben said, ” . . . the entire movement has been built on a system that breeds tyrants and sociopaths. It protects them.”

    It has now been seven years since I have stepped foot in a Calvary Chapel. For a time, I avoided all churches because of my experiences with Calvary Chapel.

    Recently, I found a little church that I like. The people are friendly and sincere. The messages are good and illuminating. I like it. I am happy there. I will keep attending until such a time the Lord directs me elsewhere.

    But in the last few weeks my path has crossed with a couple who have been very immersed and saturated in the California-based, born-again, Calvary Chapel culture. This couple is very argumentative and disruptive. They frequently interrupt speakers. Within the CC system — this couple would probably flourish. Their behavior would no doubt not only be tolerated but encouraged. They are loud and brash. They are in-your-face and obnoxious. They come across as over-zealous bullies.

    It is so bad, various members of the church have stopped attending meetings and services if this couple is known to be there. This couple has been spoken to about their actions and behaviors — but it seems to be getting worse. And now, the church is faced with the strong possibility of disallowing this couple on the church premises because of their behavior. This church has never been faced with this before — that is, actually barring an individual(s) from attending church functions. But there doesn’t seem to be any other alternative.

    The reason I am posting this is because I have seen this behavior before. I put up with it for many years when I attended CC’s and I was told the problem was me — not them.

    As Reuben pointed out in Post #13: ” I will be asked why I condemn a system that saved tens of thousands and resulted in churches around the world. I will have to answer. I will answer that it is because the entire system is rooted in rebellion. The entire system breeds rebellion. The system is based on man. God has no control. The results of that system are only now coming to light through the internet. The system failed so many, and the more stories that are told, the more people are exposed to how they were manipulated.”

    Yes — thousands of people did come to know Jesus through CC ministries including myself. But after a point, if you stay too long within the CC fold — a threshold is crossed and a weird desensitization takes place. I wish it were not so — but it really is true.

    Herein lies the real danger of Calvary Chapel. People who have been influenced by that culture have lost their awareness and have become mindless chatterboxes with weird robot-like actions. They are not aware of how they look and sound. They certainly are not aware of anyone else around them. And furthermore they don’t even act like Christians — although only God knows their hearts.

    After being away from CC ministries for so long — it was a real eye-opener to see these behaviors again from another perspective. I thank God for this website and for the opportunity to voice my concerns, make my observations, and to hear other people’s stories. Through it I have found many answers, a new sense of clarity, and a new hope that there is life beyond Calvary Chapel because for many years I believed that Calvary Chapel was the only true church.

    Yeah — I drank the Kool-aid, but I lived to tell about it.

  271. Hennie at 274; it has been a very long time since I’ve read such an arrogant comment.

  272. Hennie, I think what you write about is right on in so many ways. I think the cure for the church bubble syndrome is to periodically visit a different church every now and then just to get a fresh perspective. This is for us Christians to get along. Attending a church service doesn’t mean we have to agree with their doctrine either.

    On top of that, also Christians shouldn’t be afraid to socialize with non believers. Jesus seemed to do it all the time. Striking a balancing and not compromising your faith yet being salt and light to the world is desparately needed.

    I remember one time at a CC function, I told one of the worship leaders that I was starting to attend a presybyterian church. I was very quiet but he kept warning me over and over again that there is all this “extra” stuff in the presybteria church and couldn’t understand why they don’t just follow the bible like Calvary Chapel.

    In a meager attempt I tried to explain that the church didn’t have any more “extra” stuff than Calvary Chapel did. But he kept warning me. I told him that at least their creed (Westminister confession) that they ascribed to put the Word of God above any of their other statements. Everything I kept staying though kept falling on deaf ears.

    I didn’t quite have time to explain to him that Calvary Chapel has the “distinctives”. And the distinctives don’t even put the Word of God above all else like it is in the Westminster confession. Most Calvary Chapelites have no clue what a confessional church even looks like. They just insist that they are right because they ONLY teach the bible. We need to pray for some of these folks because they are not being taught well.

  273. seriously,

    If you go back to the archives of this blog, thre are many, many posts such as Hennie’s, including mine.

    Hennie, I have relate to your post, because all week I was struggling in my mind to understand why, when I recently visited a small church whose people seem to honor the Lord in a quiet spirit and humily, they seemed a little “boring”, or “strange” to me.

    In reading your post, you helped me.
    I was used to all the “rah rah”, the glitz and the glamour. The beautiful, connected peopel with a constant smile on their face. Loud conversation,,, Life was good for them. They were boistrous, in your face, and elated at how Jesus was blessing them. I was one of those people that probably nauseated others—until God began testing my faith. When that began, the people you mention…that couple, seemed obnoxious to me. The Pastor, up on stage with his humor, jokes, making others roar with laughter, repelled me. Then God brought us out.

    So I was wondering, after visiting this new church, why I was so bored. Everyone seemed so unanimated, so real. The prayer requests in this small church, others getting to together for a prayer meeting, meeting one anothers needs seemed to real, so right, but yet the “pizazz” of my church experience wasnt there. No perfectly orchestrated music, a seriousness about worship, yet people who welcomed me and prayed for me.

    I thought about this last week and I realized that my old church was a kind of “high” for me.
    Maybe others can relate to this.
    I went there, I knew there would be a great performance. After the service, I was satisfied. I needed it. It was a fix. I think I became addicted to my church….not Jesus. I doubt I really ever knew Him there. 8 yrs later and I am finally meeting Him in my sufferings.

  274. seriously said:

    Hennie at 274; it has been a very long time since I’ve read such an arrogant comment.

    seriously, can you please articulate what you find “arrogant” about Hennie’s comment (discussing the idea, not the person)?

    Thanks!

  275. I thought I would look up “addicted to church” and found this.

    Am I the only one who is realizing I was addicted to church?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The third level of organizational addiction is when a person becomes addicted to the organization — when the organization itself provides the fix. This level of addiction includes work addiction, addiction to the mission of the organization or addiction to the promise of the organization. A person addicted to the promise of the organization is willing to endure any amount of bad experiences to hold onto that promise, which can be anything from “life everlasting” to a sense of belonging to a community or being accepted. One young woman shared with me how lonely she had been as a child and young adult. She looked to the church to be the family she never had and was led to believe that she would be affirmed if she just did the right things. After being molested by the minister and finding no acceptance among her church “family” for her assertions or pain, she left the church, realizing she had been hooked on an empty promise.

    The church is especially vulnerable to these types of addictions. Even when their addiction is to a good cause, a good organization or a worthy promise, addicts lose touch with their spirituality and their relationship to God; the addiction takes over their life, their relationships and their being.

  276. Hannah, church addiction sounds exactly like a cult. And this is probably one of the hardest addictions to break because going to church sounds so healthy and spiritual.

    And now adays going to church can be quite entertaining kind of like going to a concert. But going to a concert every single night of the week is not healthy for you.

  277. Speaking of addictions, I think I have been on this blog too long. I am going to take a break. I’ll be praying for everyone.

  278. Andrew- You are right.

    I was addicted to this blog and took a break. Now it seems I am back, and sometimes I believe I am contributing and sometimes I feel I am a talking head.

    Blogs attract those who love to write. And it is an outlet for those who express themselves better in words.

    Hate to see you go but I understand. Hope the withdrawal is not too severe ;)

  279. Thank you for sharing Hennie, it is true that many of us can relate to the words you expressed about your experience within the cc moment. I think the problem many of us wrestle with is that we equated our relationship with the Lord to our involvement with cc and Jesus Himself to Chuck which of course is cult-like in nature…

    There was a time that I really believed that to question the cc system was paramount to questioning God Himself and I would be in danger of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if I did… I now know and believe this was classic form of control and manipulation of the Moses Model teaching, in which I was well indoctrinated and conditioned to wholly accept by listening to countless hours of Chuck’s teachings day and night on tape…

    I somehow believed that Chuck possessed a special power to call death (fatwa) down from heaven on those who challenged him or his authority and that really frightened me into subconscious, unquestioning submission to everything cc.

    I remember Chuck telling the story of a guy that challenged him to change his doctrine or else he would be burred in a black coffin. Chuck then says that the same guy was buried in a black coffin 2 weeks later.

    Here is an altered version of that story as I remember it being told live at cccm back in the day.

    I had an experience in the early years of my ministry where these fellows were into some false doctrines and they were so convinced that I was to espouse this false doctrine to my congregation that they called me out on a Saturday night and they began to prophesy over me a black coffin and I was in it. And they said God was going to smite me dead if I did not espouse their doctrine. I was not afraid. I did not go home and think, Oh my, am I going to die? I had the Word of God. Interestingly enough, the fellow who gave the prophecy died in two weeks. He just saw the wrong face in the coffin. I mean, his prophecy was correct, but…

    Interesting that Alex also had a fatwa from Chuck…

  280. Re: Post #275.

    Seriously? wrote: “. . . it has been a very long time since I’ve read such an arrogant comment.”

    I think you just proved the point of my entire post (#274).

  281. oaccg-

    “Touch not God’s annointed” comes to mind.

    Although God is talking about Kings, not CC Pastors.

  282. “I somehow believed that Chuck possessed a special power to call death (fatwa) down from heaven on those who challenged him or his authority and that really frightened me into subconscious, unquestioning submission to everything cc.”

    Chuck cursed me 16+ years ago and I’m still kicking it now.

  283. Seriously can’t have been on here long since he would have said that about me if he had been.

  284. I decided to peep back in today. :-) I’m glad I did! I can completely relate to Hennie and Hannah’s comments! I remember: No one else but CC was ever right about anything completely! There was always a reason why some denomination was doing things the wrong way! The loud, obnoxious people flourished. At this point I’ll stop and apologize because if I have been at all like that in any of my comments either in tone or in length, please forgive me fellow bloggers. I think I have unlearned quite a bit but the process still needs to continue.

    Hennie I am glad that you found a church that demonstrates the love of Christ and I will be praying about the situation with that couple. Hannah I can relate to what you said about “church addiction”. Thank you so much for sharing that. I was in that unhealthy place too! I would actually think that if I missed something everyone would condemn me as falling away. No one truly cared about what the lives of any Calvaryite were truly like or if any of us were truly living like Christians…everyone seemed to care more about what our CC role looked like: All the “ministry” you “did for Jesus”, your physical appearance and talents…all the externals! Your family could be falling apart, all that mattered is that you showed the world that the CC way was the only way!

    Maybe I won’t take another break just yet because when someone like “seriously?” attacks with a oneliner again I would like that person to come at me. :-) No my fellow bloggers I won’t respond in anger! :-) What I will say to “seriously?” is this : God loves you and wants you to come out of CC or whatever unhealthy cultlike organization you are part of. How do I know that? He did it for me….He can do it for you! :-) Is that arrogant? Not sure if that is what I would call my statement. All I know is this: I was caught in a mind-fog so thick that I could barely see what simple biblical cautions about bad shepherds and unChristian behavior meant! I ignored all of that. As far as truly drawing close to God personally, without all the “hoopla” and “pizazz”….that was a foreign concept. Now life is like an adventure in knowing Jesus! :-) No bizarre, cultlike ideas, no false veneers, no weird guilt trips leading me to work excessively to please CC leaders! None of that! Yeah! If it’s arrogant to say so then “seriously?” you can seriously point that description my way! :-)

    On another note: Has anyone else been having problems accessing this thread or any of the old threads on here? I noticed some of the old ones are completely inaccessible. Maude I don’t even want to begin to believe that someone is trying to hack this blog….but is that possible? If it is, is hacking a blog a crime and is there anything that can be done about it?

  285. Doug I’m glad Chuck’s fatwa didn’t get you! :-)

  286. Andrew…you nailed it.
    Q is on board also.

    Joe Focht is much too wise to take on a “movement” and I don’t think anyone wants to here the cats. I thought Emma was working for Rosenstein?

    Gotta go. Getting ready for Passover. Making matzoh and Charoses. Can someone tell me why computer dictionaries built into software don’t recognize Jewish terms? Gates is an anti-Semite…I just know it, I do.

  287. Overly concerned:

    Thank you for your thoughtful insights.

    As I posted in another thread — one of my deepest regrets about being involved with Calvary Chapel is that I allowed it to turn me into a social imbecile. It took me awhile after leaving CC to realize that I had many learned, established, and conditioned patterns of behavior that were far from Christian-like but they were behaviors and conditioned responses that gained me acceptance into Calvary Chapel circles. And Calvary Chapel was my world.

    With regards to the couple I mentioned in my earlier post (#274) I recognize and see myself in them. ME — in my old CC days. And I also remember how stubborn I was. I will continue to pray for them as I am sure someone must have been praying for me back then.

    But it just goes to show you how penetrating and influencing the CC culture can be.

  288. This is probably off the wall but I want to say it anyway.

    There have been times when I think I really know the truth and I have asked God to let me say the correct things when I speak to other people about my understanding of Him and His ways so that they will know the truth also.

    Then I observed fault in that, so I changed my method of prayerful asking.

    I began to ask God that regardless of what I say, Let them hear what the truth really is.

    Then I observed fault in that, so I changed my method of prayerful asking.

    I began to ask God to let me hear the truth regardless of what the others are actually saying.

    Then I observed fault in that, so I changed my method of prayerful asking.

    I began to ask God to make me understand that both myself, and others, need to realize that if we want to hear the truth and identify it as such, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to interrupt the word as we read it ourselves.

    Then I observed fault in that.

    You may ask, ‘what fault can there be in that’?

    The fault is that this is exactly what all of us claim we are doing; and yet we have almost as many differences of truth then there are people.

    Now I narrow my understanding of what ‘truth’ is:

    1. God is good.
    2. All things (Regardless of how small of an amount) outside of Godliness, is wrong.
    3. God deserves to be praised forever, regardless of what He chooses to do with us
    after we die.

  289. OC – I will mention the problems you are having with the site to Alex. I haven’t noticed any today, but have noticed it being slow on other days. Thanks for letting me know.

  290. PAL#292 Why are you uncertain of what God will do with you after you die?

    #3 I would say that God needs to be praised regardless of what he chooses to do with us in THIS life.

  291. Hannah said, “Why are you uncertain of what God will do with you after you die?”

    As I mentioned about differences of opinions of truth, people have different ways of expressing the true way of understanding how, or even if, people can be sure they are saved (or loose there salvation) . And all of them use Biblical verses to prove their point. Obviously no one knows for sure. I am not God and I cannot think anywhere near His thoughts (Any more than anyone else). I can’t even understand many people. Just because I disagree with them does not make me right.

    Also regarding #3, it is too easy for us to praise God only for what He does for us here on Earth. He deserves to be praised of His goodness regardless of what He does to us, PERIOD. Even if He sends me to Hell, He deserves my Praise.

    Again I am addressing the fact that to simple say, “The Bible says….”; Is defined differently by different people who honestly think their interpretation is truth.

  292. Jeff, Did Chuck oppose the other books, or did he approve them? Seems like some were published by CC and some were published by CCBC.

  293. Overly Concerned, hi my friend and good, so good to see you. Just started to read your first post but have to give a shout out to….

    People coming out of that organization have used the word “Cult”. The similarities between CC leadership and the Pharisees is startling! Moses model! What does that scream? The Pharisees “sat in Moses’ seat”!!!!

    sometimes it’s just jaw dropping…truth hide in plain sight!

  294. “The Pharisees “sat in Moses’ seat”!!!!”

    But I don’t think it has a negative connotation as used in the Gospel.

    Jesus told the people to listen to them in their position as teachers of the Law, but not to do what they did. And that does remind me of CC pastors.

  295. OC, permit me to pull a few more

    stuck in the state of spiritual arrested development that I know for certain I was in and everyone else I knew was in at the CC I left!!!

    It is my opinion that that is very much the case, as I have seen cc has a bias against many things, one of which is the spiritual, I think this will hold so many people back from experiencing all we as,,,,,,, born of the spirit can, this is a real problem and is cause for much blindness.

  296. Doug

    I can’t speak to each and every pamphlet but I can say in general the CCBC pamplets were at Larry’s direction; hence they were not published by CC. There were a few that Chuck had input to as they were used as part of the affiliation process in the early 90’s. But Chuck expressed to me at one point when he had decided that Larry had to leave that he was fed up with Larry using BC funds to publish without his permission, aside from other issues and expenses Larry incurred despite Chuck telling him to cut it out. Lots of other issues there but not pertinent to your question.

  297. So many posts. Looks like I missed the crowd. bummer. Hennie and Hannah, I feel for you but you’re getting spiritually healthy.
    *Listening to Jesus is Just Alright.* Jerry Falwell is turning over in his grave. I need some Bill Gaither or something.
    Re: #283- First, Touch not the Lord’s anointed. He needs a bath.
    Second, A CC commune elder turned me over to the devil. I didn’t go. I went to my Father instead.
    The first notion I had that CC was self righteous was the first time I heard Tom Stipe sing Life ain’t easy for a boy named Lu. He sang “I’m not like ordinary folks. I’ve been filled with the Holy Ghost.” I wondered if he was singing about other Christians. But then again, it’s never too late to change.
    There is an atheist like of thought that says; I can’t know a thing. Therefore no one can know it. I thought of this when I read #295 (Obviously no one can know for sure that they are saved.) Read 1st John. That’ll tell you if you are saved or not.

  298. Olivia my friend… pull away! Good to “see” you :-)

  299. once a cc guru @ your #283 comment

    When you mentioned what Chuck said about the guy dying 2 weeks after telling Chuck he would die for not teaching their false docrines, I just had to share what happened to my former cc sr pastor.

    During a mens bible study, we were talking about people we love who die and go to heaven. Then someone said that there are some preachers who teach that it is a sign of maturity when we are happy and even party when the people we love die and go to heaven. Everyone knew the guy was referring to Raul Ries. Scriptures says that “we do not grieve as those who have no hope”. Even Jesus wept when Lazarus died.

    The sunday after the mens bible study, the sr pastor said that if someone in his family dies and goes to heaven he is gonna throw a party. 2 weeks later the sr pastor’s daughter died. When I heard about her death, I was expecting a banquet at the church since he promise he would throw a party if someone in his family dies and goes to heaven. Instead he just cried and cried from the pulpit and said “I miss my daughter”. He went on to say that he will see her again in heaven and he will tell her how much he missed her.

    That’s an awful way to learn a false doctrine.

  300. Doug, regarding your #299, I left a cc quietly, because the teaching was okay (no false teaching) but behind the curtain is wasn’t what was taught, it was a horrible example. If it was false teaching a would have made a fuss. Afterwards I thought that was a mistake, I should have pointed out the hypocrisy.

  301. A lil’ something for Gary:

  302. This is so funny. It’s like Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis. Mark Lowry wouldn’t last 2 minutes under a CC pastor. Can you imagine the worship leader heckling the pastor on a Sunday morning? Ok, folks, let’s all sing. We’ve got this beautiful blonde with a perfect smile and an angelic voice. Her song has no soul but it’s entertaining…

    Turn your brain down low.
    Listen to your pastor.
    Turn KWVE on
    Get in touch with Chuck
    Come and listen in to God’s radio station
    Where the Lord’s anointed shares his creed.
    Turn your radio on, turn your radio on
    If you want to feel accepted
    Coming from the man God chose to lead.

    Turn you radio on, turn your radio on.

    Turn your radio on
    And listen to the judgement in the air
    Turn your radio on and the Gossip share
    Turn your brain down low
    And listen to the Master’s radio
    Get in touch with Chuck, and turn your radio on.

  303. Hi PAL,

    I just read #292 and it reminds me a lot of some of the debates I used to have in my mind when I attended CC. I was never completely certain of salvation and I was always back and forth with all kinds of questions. My problem was that I thought I knew the Word and that I was being taught the Word but if that was true I would have known what 1 John Ch5:12-13 says: He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    I now know that I have eternal life because I look at the things John wrote and I see that I have the Son of God and therefore I have eternal life. :-) I believe that and I intend to continue to believe that. It seems pretty simple and it is. It is pinned to faith and I have that also. :-) I am so grateful for this stability now of knowing with certainty that my life is built upon the Rock and of trusting that He is able to keep me. I used to have such instability in this understanding when I attended CC and it trickled over into the rest of my life and I could not seem to live victoriously and I did not know anyone at CC who truly did….and I knew a lot of people! This is one of the many reasons why I believe that CC is a cult. People had full access to the Word but not full access to the power of the Word.

    The biblical text I quoted seems so obvious in its meaning now, but in the mind-fog I was in at CC, I would accept all types of bizaare, man-made “logic” that conflicted with the obviousness of the text. As I write this I see once again how blessed I am to no longer be trapped in that mindset! The Holy Spirit teaches us all truth and what I realize is that He sometimes uses our soundness of mind to do it! In the instability of CC my mind was always in a muddle. It was as if I was always hearing “Did God really say….?” about very clearly-stated truths from the Word! In my CC mind-fog days if I heard “These things were written so that you might KNOW that you have eternal life” I would have a running debate in my mind which really could have been reduced to: “Did God really say….?”. I can only think of one “being” who would influence my mind to look at clearly-stated biblical truths and ask “Did God really say…..?” ….the serpent in the Garden…Satan himself!!!

    Praise God that I am no longer under the influence of CC and what I now see as a spiritually dangerous atmosphere!!! Praise God that my mind is free from constant instability and faithlessness! It has been a process and it is a continued process. I am convinced now of the power of the process because it is the Holy Spirit who is performing it in me and because I believe God’s Word fully now. We truly move from glory to glory! I am convinced that certainty of who we are in Christ is possible and with it comes victorious living and a depth of peace, joy, love, power and soundness of mind that I never believed possible while I was at CC but which I am now fully certain of because I see the effects in my life. :-)

  304. Hi Gary….hilarious! :-)

  305. Motl @ 290

    Lance Emma is a pastor at ccphilly under Joe Focht.

  306. If Chuck disapproved of Larry Taylor’s pamphlets did he ever make a public comment to say that this isn’t CC’s way of doing things?

  307. More to the point was it the content that Chuck objected to or was it that he did it with CCBC dollars?

  308. Hey all – i didn’t run, i just can’t always get to the computer frequently, depending on family demands. Im going to try to remember some of your questions….first of all I mentioned my affiliation so that it wouldnt seem like I was hiding something, or people would somehow feel betrayed if I stuck around and the info came out later. Why am I here? Because I’ve heard and seen things that do make me concerned about the overall health of CC. I desire to really be a seeker of truth, and even if others don’t know it, like it, etc. I prefer to be aware of truth. I tend to be a “pot stirrer” at times. Other times I bide my tongue and time and let the Lord reveal as He wills (If I wasn’t called directly to do so right away). I did grow up in a spiritually abusive church. I always have my radar up. Im also fully aware that spiritual abuse can happen anywhere.
    Yes it’s true, I also pray that if we grow larger the leadership (us included) are able to stay grounded. My personal opinion is anything over 100-200 people should mean splitting off and planting another church. We are definately NOT looking to grow huge numbers. Ours desire if for deeper spiritual growth. Truth is it seems to us that scripture indicates that there will be a great falling away and so if anything, numbers of true Christianity would decline as we get to the end of times.

    Also I fully understand distrust of those within a system that hurt them. I expect it. Hence the questions I have recieved to not seem at all unreasonable and actually very reasonable to ask to begin to get a feel for this person that has just entered a safe sanctuary. Your hurt and pain is real. I totally get that. I have lived it.

    And so I hope i have answered the questions asked. I’m honestly not sure how much I’ll be around. I am not here to defend much really, just glean and learn. and may pop in now and then. But the Homeschooling topic urged a bit of a response from me and so here I am!!

  309. Doug

    In those days he didn’t make public proclamations. Only when he got older and people like his brother thought they should have skin in the game re Calvary and ” the legacy” did he come out with statements like he has in recent years. In my days, for the most part, he shuttered from a public persona.

    From my memory he objected to both. while he believes in the soundness of the Moses Model (more as a result of his denominational experiences), the implications and behavior flowing from it would surely have been foreseeable nd known to a man of great Intelligence. So in a sense what Larry wrote was seemingly not a Chuck might have preferred it, by person, style and otherwise, but looking at it now Assisting the Pastor had to have the light of day…even as. Said Romaine I think expressed the Moses Model paradigm far better than Taylor.

  310. I do have a question – if the Moses model is not the correct model of church formation/government, what in your opinion is? and why? Not asking out of defensiveness – just true curiosity. I feel like any form has it’s downfalls and pitfalls simply because of human nature. Which would you feel is the most Biblical/least likely to hurt others?

  311. Hi Marie. Thanks for sticking around. I hope to learn some things from you.
    In the true sense of the phrase ‘Moses model’ the pastor would be like Moses but not just in an unquestionable role but he would have to be like Moses in other biblical ways. He would have to have been proved by something like leading sheep for a long enough period of time that he would have no problem leading God’s people in the same way. Next, he would have to have a burning bush type experience. He would then have to be sent by God with a clear message. He would have to oppose the devil with signs like Moses (and Aaron) did. There would have to be unmistakable proof to any Christian that this was God’s man. Next he would have to lead like Moses did by getting instruction daily from God. He would have to give God’s messages like Moses did.
    This is the true Moses model. The Moses model as shown by Chuck is different. Chuck’s version of the Moses model is to follow him period without any of the above qualifications. This is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. It’s a 2 class system: those close to God and those not so close.
    Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro questioned Moses and Moses took his advice. Even Moses wife condemned him for a mistake he made. He was supposed to circumcise his children. what was Moses’ response? That’s the Moses model.
    Chuck uses a verse out of context. It’s the same verse the name-it-and-claim-it preachers use. “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” meaning don’t even question the pastor like the Bereans did and implying that there is only one pastor, like there was only one Moses. There is only one ‘annointed’. How silly that is. God anoints a lot of people in a lot of different ways.
    I know whether the Moses model is right by the fruit it produces. Go into any CC and study the situation. What do you find? The people on this blog can tell you. I go to a church where none of these evil things happen. We don’t have Chuck’s Moses model. We have an orthodox new testament model. The pastor is a servant. He is not ‘the Lord’s annointed’. Oh, he IS anointed in the new testament sense but certainly not untouchable. He leads by example not in word only. I love this man and I know he loves me.
    I’m sure you’ll be hearing from others about this. I hope they treat you like they would like to be treated.

  312. You know Doug I read some of your posts on Usenet back in the day, I use to also make snide remarks to you if I remember right. Sorry about that, I am beginning to understand what you were trying to say. Alt.fan.boblar$on, the alt religion hierarchies I think Calvary chapel was in there somewhere. Its bothered me for some time so wanted to just say I see your point and sorry for any snide remarks I might have added. I started on Usenet in early 81 through bbs networks.

  313. To Marie @ CCA and to those @ PP

    There are many others here with much more professional and knowledgeable insight than I have about CC, but I will give you my neutral experience understanding of the Moses Model. I was never personally abused in any way by any religious group, or anyone else. Mainly because I have a history of being skeptical of all things to the point of continuously observing my surroundings; and either block or detract the first obstacle entering my physical or spiritual space until I can know for sure, that particular object is safe to do so. This does not mean that all of those I trust are good guys but at least they are also well aware that I will defend myself, starting with the very first need.

    I have thirty-five years of being a martial arts instructor, a private detective, chief of security and a prison guard at a California prison in a maximum security housing unit. I only mention this because I want to explain the reason I am very difficult to fool when it comes to professional deceivers.

    At this point I must say that I am also well aware that in order for a person to be good in the positions I have been in, it is necessary for that person to have had some personal experience in the real world of the bad guys in order to really understand how they manipulate and deceive.

    I have lived among them, observed them, survived; and chose different lifestyle ways.

    I can see without doubt that the Moses Model method (no accountability) is not a good way to enter people into authority without in-depth scrutinizing and lengthily ridged training; especially when given authority over naively trusting individuals who are most probable to become an easy mark. I would immediately question the reason for anyone to object to a method of intense screening and training in such an environment.

    CC producers, as I see it, take absolutely no interest in assuring the quality of quite a few of their under-pastors flying a dove.

    Why..?… That is not clear. In my past knowledge of identifying deceivers I must reach back to my past experiences with deceivers. The first and foremost reason is highly expected to be the root of all evil, money.

    How..?… That is not clear either. Again, my first guess would be “under the table payment” without proof of it being as such. As in either buying farce materials (books, tapes, instructions) to write off the transaction of the money…; or strictly straight up corruption, shared with those unworthy of being in that situation but willing to pay highly for it due to desire to be in that position, knowing that it can be profitable and the only way they can get in that position in such a quick and easy way, for a dishonest reason, is to buy their way into it.

  314. An aside, Alex said on the radio interview very loosely quoted that he knew some atheists that were basically more Christian then many Christians. Sorry Alex if that is not the correct sentiment. Online I have had atheists blast me, cuss at me, make fun of me, tell me Im full of what ever, and so on. Never online or off have I had an Atheist pray for my eternal demise, Pray that God kill me, and so on. And when I was given the left foot of fellowship out of the place I was serving it was an atheist on a Usenet group that sent me his number to call him if I needed help. He did not even live on the same continent that I lived on. I did not take him up on the offer, having been taught that needing is pathetic but asking for help outside the faith is demonic.
    I mean no disrespect but from the cheap seats, its not good news, it really is not.

  315. I want to be very careful how I say this but: The atheists I have been around in the past have been some of the most honest people I have ever met. In fact if I had listened to one acquaintance who was an atheist I would have left CC far sooner than I did! He saw red-flags in my behavior that showed that I was part of a cult and part of what he saw as a psychologically unhealthy environment! He actually went to church with me a couple of times just for argument sake and he pointed some things out about the fakeness of it all. Interestingly enough when he made comments about this I wouldn’t argue I would just say something like “Don’t judge God off of the things you see that are wrong”. Somewhere inside of me I knew that he was right both about CC and about my responses to CC.

    Wow, I think this is the first time I am admitting that out loud! Atheists can spot a phoney from a mile off and my friend saw the CC I left as one big money making machine that in no way reflected any evidence of God’s existence! I think that while he said he was an atheist my friend was truly an agnostic. He was looking for proof of God and my involvement at CC and CC itself did not show him any proof whatsoever! But I think that there was something about me personally apart from CC that would make him wonder about God and even want to discuss the possibility of God.

    Again I want to say this carefully but: I think that an atheist has a better chance of actually encountering God than someone going forward in a CC altar call!!! Why? Well God truly is. He uses people who truly know Him to impact the world, but He doesn’t always need to. The apostle Paul came to know Jesus without any human intervention! It was all divine. Of course evangelism is very necessary but if it gets done without the presence of the Holy Spirit then I believe what many people are truly buying into is the “culture of church” and not a true saving relationship with Jesus. No wonder so many people who have been abused at CC come out and turn away “from God”. I believe that it isn’t really God they turn away from but the cult theology they bought into because that was all they got at CC and not God Himself!!! I believe that despite all the CC hoopla they never found God there in the first place! Most of the people I knew at the CC I left could not survive a conversation with an atheist because their “belief in God” would fall apart completely! I believe that was because in the majority of cases they did not really believe in God in the first place! They believed in CC and Churchianity but they had never come to truly know Jesus!

    However I do believe that there are cases when in the midst of all of that hypocrisy and phoniness that the Holy Spirit Himself encounters a heart one on one. It has nothing to do with the lighting and sound and concert type atmosphere and craftily designed pop-Christian messages. The Holy Spirit reaches into a heart and touches it. Then when that person tries to draw close to God personally they begin to see the difference between what He looks like and what the CC cult environment they have immersed themselves in looks like and at first that causes all kinds of confusion in their minds. They start looking for answers in the Word and from more solid teaching and that causes even more confusion as they see that they have been having watered-down milk when the Word contains meat and they don’t know how to process meat. Then they either face a scary crisis with leadership that makes them leave or they see the sickening hypocrisy and it scares the heck out of them and they leave etc. When someone who has truly met Jesus leaves CC they leave they don’t turn away from God they turn away from the cult and run to Jesus!

    Again I’ll say this as carefully as possible about atheists:They look at religion and they question things like all the pedophiles and abusers and crooks and charlatans and they see no evidence of God, they see the cults for what the cults are. Atheists are usually very well educated like my friend was and have at least a working knowledge of the psychology of mind control. They see the commonalities between people drawn to cults like CC. The “evangelical” world looks on and sees thousands of “converts” but the atheist looks on and sees thousands of robots, the rejected of society who cannot function adequately anywhere else so they flock to the church where they can find purpose. All of this was what my friend believed and he would say so in no uncertain terms. In his mind I was too intelligent to be duped by a place like CC and to give money and time to people who were in his eyes con-men.

    I was duped though because psychologically I fit the profile of people attracted to cults. I grew up in an abusive home, struggled with self-esteem issues and desperately wanted a sense of belonging etc. Cults prey on these characteristics. My friend saw that and said so. I didn’t see it and eventually I concluded that he was trying to tear me away from God but what he was truly trying to do was to tear me away from mind-control and manipulation. Our friendship ended around that time. I wish I had listened. In a way I believe that God placed him in my life to try to talk sense into me about CC! My friend actually knew more about integrity and character than the leadership at the CC I left! I will continue to say to atheists what I said to my friend though “Don’t judge God off of the things you see that are wrong”. God is not the issue at CC at all. Perhaps He never has been because looking at their origins of rebellion and of using and discarding charismatic people to draw crowds, I do not see any evidence of the Holy Spirit working in them! Where was God in their beginnings and where is He now as they ignore abuses? I do not believe He can be or should be linked to CC.

    God is still God. He remains separate from hypocritical men in 2013 the same way He was separate from the Pharisees. He is not impressed by them. I truly believe that the “fatwas” these men issue are demonic. I do not for one second believe that CC leaders have any godly power because I never saw any evidence of godly power. The power of God transforms lives. I knew too many people who were living a complete lie while involved heavily at CC to believe for one second that the power of God was truly at work in CC. I know that God truly wanted my life though and the lives of other people who left and even the lives of people who are still trapped in that hypocritical world. Some are babies drinking milk and living a shadow of a life and saying that CC preaches the Word because they don’t know any better, but I believe the vast majority are in a far worse spiritual state than atheists! There were many I knew who could not have any type of conversation about God with an intelligent person who did not believe in Him…despite all the apologetics classes!!! I believe this was because so many people did not have the Holy Spirit and were not really saved. They were truly just like the atheists, wandering around this world without hope, the only difference was they decided to worship CC leaders and the CC lifestyle instead of choosing atheism.
    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

  316. OC : Atheists can spot a phoney from a mile off and my friend saw the CC I left as one big money making machine that in no way reflected any evidence of God’s existence!

    They look at religion and they question things like all the pedophiles and abusers and crooks and charlatans and they see no evidence of God, they see the cults for what the cults are.

    I was duped though because psychologically I fit the profile of people attracted to cults. I grew up in an abusive home, struggled with self-esteem issues and desperately wanted a sense of belonging etc.

    Cults prey on these characteristics…

    ================================

    Profound and wisely stated!

  317. I just remembered something I watched on TV once. On a particular show hosted by an atheist the topic was something like “Religion and Truth” and a panel of people from different “faiths” talked as he moderated. He asked one of the “Christians” on the panel a question about whether she believed that he was going to hell if he didn’t believe in God and didn’t accept Jesus. She paused and stuttered and said something that amounted to ” I am not 100% certain”. He looked at her and said something that amounted to “She must not really be a Christian then because didn’t the Bible say that Jesus was the only way to heaven and to escape hell, so if she doesn’t believe that then what does she really believe?” Atheists are honest and this host had a good point. If someone claims to believe in God but is clueless as to what that means and has no real relationship with the God they claim to know, then to an atheist that is further evidence to support their view!

  318. @317 brian – Thanks for the kind words.

  319. Maria @ 315

    I believe the NT teaches a mixed form of church government. I see references to a congregation form and a Presbyterian form but never a Moses Model form in the NT. So I don’t think a church needs to pick one of these forms but rather be open to the Holy Spirit to guide.

  320. Hello Once a CC Guru :-)

    There have been times since leaving CC when I have known that if my relationship with God was not based on the fact that He encountered me personally, I would now be an atheist and there wouldn’t be a single Calvaryite who could convince me otherwise. Alex has made statements that imply the same thing. I know that God truly made a point of showing me both from His Word and from His goodness and grace and mercy in my own life that He is nothing like CC leaders! He made a point of showing that He is not a hard task-master, driving me to do what He says through manipulation and control, but that I have the free will to choose to love Him or not. Then He shows me how much He loves me even through the difficult circumstances of life and when I see the depth of His love I am so moved that I just want to love Him back!

    But quite honestly if I did not encounter Him personally and if I had a false view of Him or in anyway continued to see CC leadership as His representatives, I would now be a staunch atheist! I am even grateful to Him for shining the light of truth to show me how His Word views CC by showing me that they fit areas of Scripture about the Pharisees to a tee! If I use Matthew Ch 23 for instance I have actual examples from CC for each line of “Woe” that Jesus pronounces against the Pharisees! God knows who CC leaders truly are. There are actually godly servant leaders on the planet who are nothing like CC leaders! God knows the difference between good shepherds who have loving hearts like His and the manipulators and mind-controllers at CC. My time away from their influence has been such a revelation of how much God wants to rescue the thousands and thousands of people trapped in the CC mind-fog, like I was! They are people who God loves and there are many who are trying desperately to love Him as best as their mind-fog will allow, but because of the hypocritical authority their lives are under they also end up living a sham of a Christian life that makes the atheists say “See there is no God!” I saw that constantly! I know that God wants to address that. According to His Word when there is such bad fruit as CC displays it is because they are a bad tree!

    I had to come to a clear understanding of the fact that the Word is not confused about that fact. I even had to come to terms with the truth about the deeply spiritually-sick place I was personally in while my life was under CC influence and I had to repent for allowing myself to stay there and for ignoring God’s strong warnings. This is how I see myself ending up there: Romans Ch 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

    This is how I see them and what I believe would have been my eternal outcome if God did not personally encounter me and eventually drag me out:
    Matthew Ch7:15-23 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

  321. Wow this morning I am really reminiscing! Whenever I told my atheist friend anything about CC he used to say “Propaganda!”…I now see how right he was!

    As an aside: Hello Doug. :-) How are you doing today? Where is your little icon that normally comes up when you post…the little guy?

  322. It’s not only athiests who look at phony churches and false teachers and say “There is no God.” but children. I grew up in the Catholic church. As a dumb kid who was not aware of much that went on around me I saw the empty lives of the nuns and priests I saw daily at school and church and I decided that maybe there was a God but if there was he was nowhere around here. CC is much more subtle though.

  323. OC – Doing well. My computer hard drive died a couple of days ago and I took the opportunity to get a new computer so I’m still setting up stuff like the gravitar…

  324. Hey Gary,

    I read your explanation of the Moses Model and if I didn’t fully understand it before I now do. :-) It was thorough and so well stated. I agree with you that CC is way more subtle than the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic school and while there was one nun who seemed very spiritual and caring, everyone else seemed harsh and cold. CC’s subtilty seriously scares me because so many of their leaders initially come across as gentle and loving until they are challenged or have to deal with a conflict or abuses or their finances or authority are threatened and then the claws come out!!!! I see them like this according to the Word: 2 Corinthians Ch 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
    2 Timothy Ch 3:13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

  325. I’ve been having some strange issues with my computer too but it mainly seems to happen when I access this blog! Don’t know what that is about. I saw what Brian had to say to you Doug and it seems that you have been trying to speak truth for a long time and I just want to say thanks as well for continuing to do it and for not losing heart.!I have a strong belief that things are starting to hit the mark and that a lot of pride among people who abuse others and who use Jesus’ name while doing it, is going to be shattered very soon.

  326. Okay as much as I know I’ll miss you all, I am all “blogged out” and before I get annoying with my lenghty posts I will say goodbye and God bless for today and perhaps for the beginning of what will be a very busy week for me personally :-)

  327. I wish I could put faces and names to you all. (Insert sad emoticon here.)

  328. Alex is friends with most of us on Facebook :)

  329. Gary

    Let me help you out.

    Sheckstein is the illegitimate bastard son of Shecky Greene…the famous Las Vegas comedian. His picture can be found online for graduates of Congregation Mogen David on Pico Blvd. in West Los Angeles. He’s the dork with the black horn rimmed glasses.

  330. @Overly Concerned…hanging on every word! Very good posts! Bottom line, if we felt like we didn’t fit in at CC, it was because the Holy Spirit in us was rejecting the nonsense.

  331. Amen Your Mom! I am trying to get ready for the week ahead and to take a break from blogging but specific things keep things keep occurring to me that I feel the need to share. I hope that this is the last one! :-)

    I have a sense that there are godly Christian leaders looking at all that is going on here and wondering where to stand on all of this. I stated before that I believe that the fear of man would prevent them from taking a solid stand and seeing the truth, but for some reason I think there may be more to it at this point. The CC I left criticized just about every denomination from the pulpit at one time or another. Anyone who wasn’t doing things the CC way seemed to be fair game, yet I wonder if now CC may not be trying to reach out to true and respected godly leaders in denominations and smaller churches for help with the “scourge of bloggers”? I could even see them reaching out to places that are not godly at this point to gain support! This is something I am wondering out loud and is a question and if anyone has an answer or any input about this possibility please share it.

    My question would make sense considering the fact CC’s hypocrisy had them recognizing Mormonism as a non-Christian cult one minute, but then conveniently changing that view to state that some Mormons are Christians prior to the 2012 elections. CC shifts when convenient to protect their own interests. If they could shift for Mormonism which is widely accepted by the Evangelical world as having a drastically different doctrine from Christianity, what would they do to gain support from true Christian denominations that they usually criticize publically? That being said: If there are Christian leaders reading this who do not know what to do with this blog and with the allegations of abusive behavior at CC please review publically verifiable examples!

    For instance see the case of Anthony Iglesias, the pedophile shuffled around in the CC system who leadership was aware of and who abused boys through his CC involvement even though it was known, prior to that abuse, that he had committed pedophilia in Thailand! Then when his victims sued they lost the suit! Or review the case of Rodger Allen Thomas a CC employee whose victim was his adopted daughter, who was adopted through a CC-affiliated foster program and who claimed some of the abuse happened on CC premises and who sued only to have the initial judge rule in CC’s favor even though the judge was a CC attendee and supporter to the point that she taught classes there! Then of course there is Alex’ case in which his step-father is sued him for defamation, stemming out of allegations he and two his brothers made regarding physical and even sexual abuse. There are other cases that are publically verifiable that do not even minimally suggest that the truth and righteousness that God stands for, is anywhere within the CC system! These publically verifiable abuses should provide the two or three witnesses needed for any godly person to weigh in on all of this and to be careful in their dealings with CC!

    If CC leaders are suddenly reaching out to you and you are reading this, it is not because they respect you. They would just as soon criticize your ministry, as talk to you and you can verify that by asking anyone who has left CC even those who won’t admit to there being anything else wrong. So if by chance CC is suddenly befriending denominations and small churches it is for support only. It makes me think of this: Galatians Ch 4:17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.

    So to godly men reading this who are not part of CC: Please prayerfully consider any affiliation you have with them. Submit it to the Holy Spirit and let Him guide you and don’t just try to forge unity with men God may not want you to have any unity with! Take the advice of a fool the way that Paul begged the Corinthians to! Their actions are not showing proof of the Gospel at work in them and if that is so, then think seriously about whether they are not promoting “another Jesus” as Paul said in 2 Corinthians Ch 11. If they are, and I believe they are, please do not “put up with it”!

    2 Corinthians Ch 11:1-4 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicitythat is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

  332. RE: Marie @ #315 on March 23, 2013 at 8:03 pm,

    In my opinion, the best thing you could do is to research the pros and cons of all forms of Church governance and make your own decision from there. Use your critical thinking skills. That’s why your Creator endowed you with them.

    Above all, always question authority. Don’t let somebody else do your thinking for you. Some will be more than happy to be your authority, using a King James as electric cattle prod, whip, & club.

  333. Nothing wrong with KJV except guilt by interpretation.

  334. Motl- are you the tailor that Zelda ran off with?

  335. :) thanks for your commentary. I definately am an authority questioner, sometimes thought of as rebellious, but really just desiring Truth. I always exacerbated my sunday school teachers questioning things they’d tell us as to where the Bible actually said that…..

    As of now, our pastor is a servant leader. He’s likely the one to be cleaning the coffee pot, vs. expecting coffee to be brought to him. He and my husband both are bi-vocational and to not take a salary or any compensation from the church. They both work hard and desire to impart only Biblical Truth to the congregation. In fact our mid-week service is actually more of a group study in that my hubby presents the teaching, but invites discourse, and questioning throughout the time, so that we’re talking, examining, and absorbing the scriptures together.

    I have been wondering if there is a difference in attitude and the way churches are run based on size and even location in the country? Meaning – in our small church there’s no money to be had to misappropriate. There are few people to control, and more accountability amongst the people. (I do know this doesn’t mean abuse can’t happen. it does..just wondering if it lessens the likelyhood). But I also wonder, is there a difference in East coast vs. West Coast vs. Midwest (which is where we are located). Does increased income and power opportunities make abusive structure more likely? does being located in larger population areas create greater opportunities for these things? Is there a certain mindset based on the local environment? We live in a VERY depressed state. High unemployement, low income, high crime. Does this make a difference in how we approach ministry? I don’t know, just things I ponder and wonder about.

    I think people look at various churches and make assumptions because of the affiliation. However I firmly believe there are good and bad churches in every affiliation, and denomination out there. and you have to go into any place with discernment and awareness and an unwillingness to “just drink the Kool-aid”.

    I believe there are good true Christian catholics, but they can’t be responsible for every priest that messes with young kids. and Im certain that there are Baptists who are true followers of Christ, but that have had pastors who’ve extorted money. So Im not sure it’s reasonable to expect one to completely leave an affiliation based on what some well known names have or haven’t done. for us, we are just trying to do what Christ calls us to do where we are. If CC starts to send down mandates of operating that we deem Unbiblical we will leave. But for now, the pastors don’t feel that is so. I do understand your point in feeling the Moses Model is Unbiblical and that would be reason. But I can’t make that argument with these guys at this point, and so we stay a CC……:)

  336. Maria,

    I appreciate your comments. I am just curious what where the reasons for affiliating with CC in the first place?

  337. Marie-“I believe there are good true Christian catholics, but they can’t be responsible for every priest that messes with young kids”

    Marie the entire office of Priesthood is null and void in the N.T.
    There is no longer a Priest as mediator between God and Man.
    Today is Passover.
    It symbolizes the perfect sacrifical lamb that was slain for our sins.
    It was offered by a levitical Priest in the OT.

    In the book of Hebrews, it is clear that the office of Priesthood (a man offering up Jesus on the altar-which is the basis for the Mass) is a mockery to God and a false system which God does not recognize. Jesus is our High Priest and He HIMSELF was offered to God. There was no Priest to offer HIm. Why should there be now in the Catholic system?

    It is not surprising that a false system that God does not recognize would have such problems. God’s model was marriage. Not celibate Priests. One reason for all the abuse to children.

  338. Hannah said:

    It is not surprising that a false system that God does not recognize would have such problems. God’s model was marriage. Not celibate Priests. One reason for all the abuse to children.

    Wouldn’t the logical abuse be priests abusing young girls, not boys?

  339. Julie Anne-

    I deleted my response because the point I was making was the false system of Priesthood.
    And I didnt want to get into a debate about Priesthood/celibacy/Homosexuality

  340. Hannah – my point was that there are alot of flawed structures but there are still true believers within those structures. I would agree with you that the Catholic church does have a false system of priesthood, and I personally wouldn’t worship in a Catholic system. :)

    Andrew- why are we affiliated with CC. Here’s a run down of my history in the church –
    I was born and baptised into a Methodist church. We then began attending a Covenant church…now I don’t know if you’re familiar with these churches but I would call them a cult. They were closely affilliated with Bill Gothard’s “ministries”. Very charismatic, very damaging. Shephards and shepharding were trigger words for me for a very long time. We eventually moved and my dad walked away from the church for quite a few years as a result of our experiences in that place. My mom however continued to take us to church and we attended a Missionary Alliance church. Pretty solid Bible teaching, great pastors. Unfortunately alot of them are beginning to go more toward the Emergent way of things these days. After I graduated I found a Assemblies of God church to worship and serve at, but I didn’t really make relationships beyond the children’s ministry where I served. Eventually I met and married my husband and we moved out of state. In our new place we found a little church affiliated with IFCA – International Fundamentalist Churches of America. We disagreed with their doctrine that sign gifts are completely done away, but overall the fellowship was sweet, the pastor was a wonderful caring man who knew his Bible Very well, and preached it expositionally. My husband was saved at this church.
    We again moved out of state and began our next search for a church. We started out at a Church of Christ, but it was so large, and very impersonal. It was impossible to meet anyone to develop a relationship with. the pastor seemed fake, and we disagreed with their doctrine that you must be baptized to be truly saved, and actually only baptized there for it to be “real”. We next found a CC. When we walked in we were embraced and loved on immediately. the people were open and friendly, and we were able to jump right in and begin serving. We loved the atmosphere, and the expositional teaching. However with time the cracks began to appear. The first major red flag was the atmosphere of Pastor Worship. That they were there more for the man, and the “amazing worship” than for God. Now Im going to say this was the fault of the people. We should not be worshipping man. However, i also believe the pastor and staff also encouraged it. there was wrong on both sides of that coin. As we started up the ministry ladder toward leadership we also began to see other troubling things. The man behind the scenes was not the same man you saw on stage. He was catered too way to much, and definately not the servant leader the scripture indicates a man of God should be. He also was not willing to hear correction and quickly dispensed of any one who should criticize him. Even his Elders had a difficult time getting time with him for any reason. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. He put aside the needs of his family, in trade for the church, calling it a devotion to God that they should admire, but he’s now reaping the harvest of…:( There are also rumors ( i have no substantiation) of mishandling of money, lying to city officials etc. We were definatly on the path of needing to leave the church, but it was a very difficult thing to ponder because we’d seen so many shunned when they did finally leave, and these people were our family….:( However, the Lord saw fit to move us again for the job, and we were able to leave without a confrontation, and keeping some of our friendships that would otherwise have been forced to cut themselves off from us. That church has since left the CC affilliation is on now a completely independent church.
    This takes us to where we are now. Our opinion at the time as we left was not that the CC organization at large was a problem, ( it wasn’t even something we considered) but the man in charge at the one we left. We still agreed with the distinctives – the expositional preaching, pre-trib rapture, a balance in spiritiual gifts, a balance between calvanism and armeneism etc. We grew alot spiritually in the last church because there was still an emphasis on scripture. And so when we moved this last time, we looked for another CC for those reasons and found a little one that was just a year or so out of the home fellowship. and that is where we are now. When we are looking at a church we are looking for a pastor who is humble, not afraid of the Truth, and preaching the Word of God, not his pet peeves or topic for the week. We are looking for a fellowship that loves each other, keeps each other accountable, and loves the Word. and that’s what we feel we’ve found. Now we are aware that CC at large is going through some transitions and it’s possible we will need to de-affiliate, but at this time we’re just trying to follow and serve God in our community and the people he’s put before us.

  341. Marie, Thanks for your explanation. It really is a zoo out there in the evangelical world. It sounds like you are on a good track with your current church. Seeing that you are on this website, you are probably noticing problems with the CC organization as a whole, so I am still puzzled why you remain affiliated. I guess you can make the point that you don’t want to rock the boat but I am not sure of the benefit CC affiliation is giving your little church which from all outward appearances seems to be independent. This brings me to an interesting point. I wonder if it is possible to dis-affiliated from CC yet still keep the CC name and dove logo symbol if you still adhere to all the distinctives, etc.. I guess part of the affiliation agreement probably insists that the pastor attend senior pastor conferences etc.where you will find probably the same pastor you had problems with in the previous CC. But not sure if the CC network would ever insist that a CC ex-affiliate if they agree to everything other than going to senior pastor conferences could continue to use the name. Now you got me thinking.

  342. Gary, just reading your post 316 (interesting #) …..since I felt a soft love in your explanation and your humility, ty and carry on…….

  343. Julie Anne, The culture of the Catholic priesthood promotes homosexuality. Think about it. There’s a house full of men who can’t touch women. what are they gonna do? Without the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives they’re gonna gravitate to their base desires. The nature of addictions is they get worse (I don’t know the technical term). It spreads from there to boys. Also, boys are a lot lore available cuz boys become altar boys and the priests have access to them in private.

  344. Thanks Olivia.

  345. OC, reading your post around my busy morn. have to give a pause to..

    Of course evangelism is very necessary but if it gets done without the presence of the Holy Spirit then I believe what many people are truly buying into is the “culture of church” and not a true saving relationship with Jesus. No wonder so many people who have been abused at CC come out and turn away for God.

    and that is why we see so many baby, frustrated “christians”

  346. @Andrew – I don’t believe going to the senior pastor conferences is a requirement. Im not certain that our pastor is going this year. And I believe they’re considering going to the East coast one next year. I do know the only way to carry the CC name and dove is to be affiliated. if you discontinue the affilliation you agree to no longer use them. We really are pretty independent. There’s not much input from the West Coast in how we run things. so I guess we’ve been able to be separate from alot of the junk thus far.

  347. I think the East Coast Pastor conference is being run by Joe Focht. I would be cautious though. I just noticed that they discovered a COUNTERFEIT FACEBOOK page for Joe Focht. ccphilly.org

    FACEBOOK COUNTERFEIT: Someone has posted a counterfeit Facebook in Pastor Joe’s name.

    COUNTERFEIT Facebook page is small potatoes compared to counterfeit religion. So far I trust Joe and think he is wise enough not not take on the entire movement but time will tell. Motl @ 290

    Keep this in mind there is a CCA unbrella organization made up of CC heavy weights through out the country so whether you think the West Coast or East coast has no input really depends on what is being spoken behind closed doors with the CCA board of elders. Think of it like the Cardinals when they selected the pope. Its kind of the same. Ask questions. Ask who is the president of the CCA organization. Ask lots of questions. That is my advise. As a CC affiliate you have a right to know.

  348. OC, finished your post and so true, it is a shame that the church that has a dove representing the Holy Spirit, has such lack of the spirit. I have often mused that their dove, in truth, should have duck tape over it’s mouth and it’s wings tied behind it’s back, that in my mind would far more resemble the cc’s dove.

  349. I was a victim of a Narc in the Philadelphia CC and boy was it an eye opener. If you really want to understand the whole ethos of CC you need to study Narcissism. Do a YouTube search on the subject and your eyes will open to a whole new paradigm. There are people on this planet without empathy and they are the land mines of life and the CC leadership are full of them. To get over the hump that a human being can exist without empathy is a huge milestone and the first step to understanding.

  350. Mike,

    Very true, we were very unfortunate victims of a very narcissistic pastor who cc put in place after he and his family hurt us, makes you wonder about them too, but than we know their bent too.

    We have a blogger who often has spoken about these types of people and the way they operate, cc seems to attract them and seems to not care.

  351. Olivia,

    I completely understand what you went through, been there got the t shirt. These Narcissist sustain themselves through the pain they cause in others, you just happen to get in the crosshairs. It’s a miracle any of us survived them, they are parasites of the elect. How do I find this blogger, you’ve peaked my interest. Thanks for your input.

  352. Mike, check out some of Uriahisaliveandwell aka Uriah, we also had a Linda Pappas I believe was the last name but she doesn’t show up anymore. I believe Uriah mentioned not the condition directly, as she has many times, but in general on the Jon Coursen thread you can see on the left under recent posts.

    I hope she/he sees this and can direct you to where she/he has so detailed gone over this and the like conditions of Narcissistic people.

  353. See September 2012: Post about Pastor Crippen’s Letter to Pastors. Scroll all the way down, then work your way up.

  354. Mike,

    “These Narcissist sustain themselves through the pain they cause in others,”

    This is why they are often referred to as emotional vampires while leading a double life that gives an appearance of normality: the Mask of Sanity.

  355. Will do, thanks everyone.

  356. The gentleman says he should be ‘out serving the people’…um, asking people to spy on each other is contrary to ‘serving the people’. What in the world? And writing a letter to inform the senior pastor of goings-on? Is this a gossip club?

    What happened to the living organism called The Body of Christ?

    We left the whole church system (organization) about 5 years ago – we do church at our kitchen table – glorious, pure, untainted worship. It’s all about Jesus.

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