Dec 052012
 

The FBI has charged Calvary Chapel youth bible study instructor Jacob Robert Holguin with distributing child pornography to an undercover officer.

Holguin teaches 4th, 5th and 6th graders at Calvary Chapel San Antonio in Universal City, Texas.

The details are extremely disturbing.

One of the online chats reads, ““i really like… rape. … i like to see them … saying no, it hurts, stop.”

Link to the full article here:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Bible-school-instructor-charged-in-child-porn-case-4094403.php

Calvary Chapel apologists will quickly cry, “It’s not Calvary Chapel’s fault! This guy got arrested! The children at Calvary Chapel aren’t in danger! You’re just using it to smear Calvary Chapel!”

Wrong, and here’s the point: In the Anthony Iglesias Calvary Chapel Molestation lawsuit, it alleged that Calvary Chapel Golden Springs (Raul Ries’s Calvary Chapel franchise) was made aware of Iglesias’s pedophilia problems, removed him from ministry with kids for a short period and then restored him to ministry. The lawsuit further alleged that Iglesias left CCGS and went to other Calvary Chapels in the System and molested kids through his youth leader connections.

Here’s more of the point: What mandatory policies and protections does the Calvary Chapel Association have in place as part of their Affiliation Agreements with some 1,500 to 2,000 (Chuck Smith’s number, not sure if there are actually that many CC’s) Calvary Chapel pastors?

From personal experience and the experiences of many others…Calvary Chapel Senior Pastors are GREAT at black-balling “divisive!” people who challenge their authority. They’ll call every CC pastor and warn them to black-list these folks…and it’s very effective. Does Calvary Chapel warn other CC’s when there is a known child predator in their midst?

How easy would it be for Holguin to pop up at the next Calvary Chapel and become a youth instructor? Very easy in many cases. Many Calvary Chapels do not background check and vet those who are with your children. Calvary Chapel has a history of ignoring these issues, including the fact they have a sitting, practicing pastor/affiliate Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier (who is endorsed by Chuck Smith) who has a very public allegation of molestation by his blood son Paul Grenier.

Are your kids safe at your local Calvary Chapel franchise? Ask if they vet youth workers fully. Ask Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and the Calvary Chapel Association if there are any other pastors or youth leaders in the Calvary Chapel System who they know have child molestation allegations against them, besides Bob Grenier.

From my direct personal experience, it is my opinion that if this Holguin guy somehow beats the rap, or even if he doesn’t, it is very possible he could end up as a Calvary Chapel youth instructor working directly with kids once again.

I continue to call on Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and the Calvary Chapel Association to fully investigate allegations of child molestation and child abuse by their affiliated pastors and youth workers, etc and to remove anyone who has these unresolved serious allegations surrounding them and to put mandatory System-wide policies and protections in place to help protect our children the best they can.

Further, I continue to warn the public that all is not as it seems on the surface in Calvary Chapel. Ask questions, be careful. If you see a youth leader named Jacob Holguin at your Calvary Chapel franchise in the future, I hope you’ll find this article and see if it’s the same guy.

I emailed Pastor Ron Arbaugh of Calvary Chapel San Antonio in Universal City, Texas for comment.

Ironically, Ron Arbaugh was on PhoenixPreacher.com defending his friend Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia when I went public with my story of child abuse.

Here are questions I posed to Arbaugh in the email (as well as giving him the opportunity to make a statement):

Will you allow Holguin to resume working with kids at your CC if he beats the rap?
Would you “restore” Holguin if he is found guilty and ever let him instruct youth at your church again?
What policies do you have in place to protect children at your CC?
Does the Calvary Chapel Association require you to do anything as part of your Affiliation Agreement to protect kids?
Do you background check and vet all youth leaders, youth workers, pastors, employs?
If there was a sitting Calvary Chapel pastor accused of molestation, would you allow them to continue in ministry at your church without the issue being fully investigated?
If there was a youth worker in Calvary Chapel who was accused of molestation, would you allow them to continue working with kids at your CC without the matter being fully investigated?

  220 Responses to “Calvary Chapel San Antonio Youth Leader: “i really like… rape. … i like to see them … saying no, it hurts, stop.” Jacob Holguin charged by FBI with distributing child pornography.”

  1. Seems like these situations are handed to you on silver
    platters!

    I will be watching carefully to see of there is any spirit of contrition on the part of this pastor.

  2. It’s sickening.

    And, in CC it is not a priority.

    In my opinion: What concerns me is with CC’s lack of care in these child abuse and molestation etc matters, this guy Holguin could very easily resurface in the CC System and no one would bat an eye and he could be a Calvary Chapel youth leader again with children. It’s simply not a priority in CC. Chuck Smith knows about the child abuse and molestation allegations surrounding BG, so does CCOF and the CC Association and they do nothing, in fact they are probably IMO helping fund bob’s lawsuit to shut me up

  3. Dear Chuck, Brian, Bob, Raul, Dave, etc, etc,

    Matthew 18:6 and so forth….

    but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a milestone fastened to his neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea………..woe to the one from whom temptations come…..if your %#&(! cause you to sin cut it off, it is better for you to enter life crippled than… ….thrown into eternal fire ……..hell fire.

  4. I am hoping that the FBI is paying close attention to CC nationwide. They have more than enough evidence that the CC organization nationwide fosters a complete lack of accountability.

    As for the rest of the church in America consider this: The true Gospel is supposed to change lives yet continually we see men within the CC system randomly being found guilty of heinous acts against children…do any of these cases seem like evidence of changed lives? I can say that in the CC I left the norm among most attendees was either a works-based mindset (which is not the Gospel) or a constant struggle with every type of besetting sin possible. Does that sound like evidence of lives changed by the true Gospel?

    There is something deeply wrong with CC. What needs to happen next for that to sink in? This man was only caught because of a random FBI investigation. If he was not caught how many years would have gone by and what else would he have done? How many men just like him are even now still within systems like CC with access to children? I strongly believe that CC does not promote true accountability or truly present the Gospel with the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives, so if the FBI were to randomly investigate each of its arms nationwide what would they find? That remains to be seen. Hopefully CC does not have any strong ties to the FBI to block such investigations from happening!

  5. Turn head and spit. Anyone got a table I can turn over?

  6. Alex anyone who dares to say that “It’s not Calvary Chapel’s fault! This guy got arrested! The children at Calvary Chapel aren’t in danger! You’re just using it to smear Calvary Chapel!” would just be showing the sick logic that CC nationwide is known for. Countless bloggers over many years have documented that when they tried to speak about problems within different parts of CC nationwide some of the tactics used to discredit them was for CC to suggest that they were crazy or that they were filled with hate and bitterness even if those people begged for changes to be made that would correct problems.

    You are not making any of the things you present here happen. They are happening with people connected to CC nationwide and they are happening too often and the lack of accountability supports these evil and sickening occurences. What stood out with this case was the randomness of it all. That was probably one of the most sickening aspects. Randomly, a man engaging in sick, perverse, pedophilic activities was revealed to be a CC Bible study teacher for children in 4th, 5th and 6th grades!!! I am sorry but anyone who does not realize the extent of CC’s problems is on a whole other level of deceived!

  7. Grateful,

    “I will be watching carefully to see of there is any spirit of contrition on the part of this pastor.”

    When it comes to a predator, I would strongly advise everone not to be so easily taken in my any confession, even if they are weeping profusely. How many times have you seen an addict swear on his children’s grave that they have come to realize how wrong they were and how much they have hurt someone, but turn right around and use again.

    Sexual addiction of any type takes a long time of treatment and strict accountability (with the use of clinical polygraphs) and the involvement of many peope who have frequent contact with this person, to overcome.

    Calvary Chapel Pastor by and large are not educated men and most have gone from drug addiction into the pulpit. Their narcissism leaves them thinking they are “good judges of characters” and at the same time, they unfornately will grant pardon thinking this is what they need to do in light of the things that they did while acting out their own addictions (including sexual addiction which is common for an addict, because where there is one, there more–like an onion, then when you get to the core, that is the real issue that they have used their addiction to medicate themselves to avoid coming to terms with their own abuses suffered). This is why Raul Ries foolishly bought into believing Inglesia was repentant and just needed a new environment to make a fresh start.

    Believe it not, lack of knowledge does destroy people. So just because someone looks like they have a contrite heart—don’t be in a hurry to embrace the idea that it is sincere. That’s why it’s okay to forgive, but reconciliation involves earning the right to be trusted again.

    Personally, it repulses me to know that more people are not standing up against that which they say they know is wrong. Then get upset when “nothing” is being done to stop this. Look around you–do you not have eyes to see and ears to listen—write a letter to Calvary Chapel Association, Petition your church leadership, Donate to Alex’s Legal Fund and help to reform Calavry Chapel. You know there is leaven in your church and some of you many be knee deep in it. God tells us to hold one another to an account and for those that do not wish to be rid of this or enjoy watching it happen, then I say to you–just what is it that tells you that you are of the Lord. Because Ephesians 5:11 and I Cor 5:4-13 tells us clearly that if we are in Christ Jesus we will walk in the spirit and in obedience, not permitting these things to be practices among us. And why would you stand by knowing it is among those who you call “Pastor”, “Deacon,” or “Elder.”

  8. @ 7 (in moderation)

    Scriptures: Ephesians 5:11 I Corinthians 5:4-13 I Corinthians 6:1-10

    Romans 8

    Why do you think Raul Ries preaches and teaches so much about sexual immorality? Because he knows personally what the wages of these sins are as he has shared many times, he was a sexual addict filled with anger, rage, and abusive practice towards his wife, children and others. He knows and this is why I think he was so easily taken in by Inglesia. He simply projected his own sorrow upon this guy and was not objective and educated concerning these things that would have cause him to do otherwise. In this, I can give Raul a measure of grace and understanding for his error in judgment.

    But at the same time, not to stand up as a Sr. Pastor who does have influence in the brand to stand up for Alex—-there is no excuse. I don’t care how long ago this took place. Alex and his brothers and his mother all need to be able to stand before their abuser to say to him what they need to in order to be restored and vindicated of the awful, terrible, horrendous years, days, months, hours, and minutes spent in being denied being heard by the church and its leader—because their abuser was and is a Pastor. For Calvary Chapel in part and as a whole to refuse to do what ought to have been done when this was first reported with the excuse that since BG was convicted, therefore, our hands are clean, is an out and out lie from the pit of hell. Since when does man’s law supercede those things that needs to be investigated, judge, and discipline by the church, particularly when such behavior was done while holding a position of a Pastor?

    In my mind, thinking about how far BG and CS go back with the other, I have to wonder if there is something that BG has on CS that has left Alex and his family under the bus. Hmm? Or is it just a simple case of CS possessing not an ounce of empathy for those who have been led to believe otherwise. I’m sorry, brother and sister, but even CS ought to be held for an account for white washing all of this, then acting as though Alex has victimized him instead.

  9. Just for clarity, I am looking for contrition on the part of the pastor who defended Bob Grenier and now finds himself in the precarious position of needing to answer how he’s going to handle the predator in his midst.

  10. Hi Uriahisaliveandwell. I was just reading a publication about five things that we should know about child sexual offenders. It was written by one of the men who spoke at CC Phili’s Child Safety conference. Interestingly enough this particular speaker is related to a pastor on staff at one of the CC’s featured here and to a famous evangelist. It would be interesting to know how he feels about the specific sexual offenders connected to that particular CC…..Hmmm…..

    Much of what you said above is supported by the publication he wrote. A statement is even made outlining the discovery that sexual offenders who ask for grace and who claim that they will never do their heinous acts again are most often lying! Some very sad statistics are listed which reveal that sexual offenders who abuse female victims on average abuse as many as 30 victims even if 30 victims do not actually come forward! The statistics for those who abuse male victims were listed to be as many as 20 victims even if not all the victims come forward! In light of this why on earth would any CC ever try to “restore” a sexual offender back to a position of direct contact with children? They would be playing with fire. Unfortunately they have done so in the past. Tonight I am so disgusted that sleep is not coming easily. The ramifications of the statistics above in light of the multiple sexual offenders in CC nationwide are jarring. How many children have they damaged over the years who did not come forward due to shame? This is a valid question that the publication I was reading encouraged me to ask.

    Known sexual offenders have been placed on national registries. The legal system has clearly determined that they are likely to repeat their offenses. How bizarre that CC would not realize the same truth! I can only imagine the type of acts these men would perform in foreign countries on missions trips for instance! This was the case with Anthony Iglesias who had molested boys in Thailand before he was caught doing the same thing here! Parents who come to this site and are not warned about leaving their children with CC men are on a whole other level of deceived!

  11. I never quite got this reconciliation thing myself. First in the world I live in reconciliation has some conditions, first you have to have more power then the person you are reconciling with, it needs to have a utilitarian benefit, I e raises funds or continued revenue stream. This by far is the most important condition. It plays some type of apologetic role, I E makes the one forgiving look good, rips the very soul out of the one asking for forgiveness. The one being forgiven is a member of the family of a prominent evangelical leader or pastor. The reconciliation process utterly and totally destroys the one being forgiven, especially if they committed sins of fellowship, I E asking for help, asking questions, questioning leadership, reporting something wrong about someone higher up the food chain, cost any type of funding source, and so on.

    By forgiving the leader can show off their potheti um no “prophetic” gift of reading tea leaves or hearts. Now I have wept a total of two times in front of a congregation and one time when I got the left foot of fellowship which was 200^20000 to many times. First was showing grief for the loss of a love one and second was because I felt I was not loving God enough. I know insert finger barf out stomach contents. I wont, on my soul, ever do that again, Ever. If one does not have the Saul to Paul conversion then ones testimony is basically useless and most likely false in the evangelical corporation.

    I have seen young men raised up and put in positions of authority only to crash and burn, usually with alot of help. Then kicked to the curb because they did not deal with it, move on, and go in for the big win. Most of these people walked away from God, the basic attitude, good reddens. It always broke my heart personally, just goes to show my apostate world view. I actually believe in real reconciliation and forgiveness, I see it in the world all the time. Not so much in the church to be honest. From my experience as a lower cog in the corporation I can tell you this is not what Jesus had in mind, which of course is totally irrelevant.

    Want to hear something rather pathetic I still actually pray for reconciliation between CC folks and those hurt, again I know open mouth insert finger. The evangelical religion as practiced in the US is really rather strange.

  12. Overly Concerned,

    I know what you mean by not being able to rest easy knowing these things have and are going on in Calvary Chapel in particular. Particular, meaning a congregation that is near and dear to our own hearts. For me, I find myself having what I would deem to be a righteous indignation.

    I really appreciate the time you took in expanding upon what I shared. People really don’t understand the implications inherent in sexual addiction which does involve targeting children and adults. Not any more than they do in understanding any type of addiction. Most people think that if you stop using the “drug” then all is well. Not true—For me, it’s rather ironic that Jesus himself told us this. For instance, He told us that to look at a woman, with lust in our hearts is the same thing as adultery. Many people gloss over this and miss what He is teaching us. Many people say, well it’s human to want to lust after another person. From the mindset of the flesh, this is true. But when you go beyond this and really think it through, you come to understand that you are using that person as a way of getting a “hit” of a chemical, called PEA which in turn goes right to the amgydala. When you keeping doing this, directly or indirectly, you eventually cause the brain to hijack you ability to see that person as a human being. You see them as an object to get the “hit.” Problem is, this progresses into other things, because just like any drug, the initial hit was the best, but the brain demands more and more. In turn, you lose the ability to be sensitve and empathic towards the needs and the welfare of others.
    The brain literally creates a new wiring system that is now founded upon a belief system that enables you to justiy your actions. And until you are able to totally change this belief system, you will be under bondage to the addictive processes that keeps drawing back to getting that hit again. In this example, people need to know, it is not the person being lusted after that is the addiction—–it is the chemical PEA that is the addictive substance. The person being lusted after is only the trigger.

    Overly Concerned, I am so glad that you pointed out that predators have target and violated many people before getting caught and most likely will continue after that and this is why the sexual offender registry was set up. So that we can protect our children and ourselves, as well as, put good boundaries in place when permitting these offenders to congregate with us in church. Under no circumstances should a sexual offender who has committed serial child abuse or serial rape or other sexual violations be permitted to lead a congregation, be an elder, deacon, or involved in children and youth ministries. It is too risky. The treatment that is available is not that sophisticated by and large. So, even though they may have gone through treatment, it is no guarantee that they didn’t just work the system. Remember, they are experts at leading a duplicitious and double, triple lifestyle.

    I hope with all my heart that people out there are reading these comments and not taking the position of thinking that just because there was a conference things are being handled. It takes every sincle person in the body of Christ, Jesus to educated themselves, so that they can protect themselves and also to know just how to come alongside these who are in this type of bondage that have led them to target and to prey upon others. A good place to start would be to purchase of copy of Lundy Bancroft’s book, “Why Does He Do That?” Whatever you do, do not rely upon the 12 step programs to take the place of accountability and good sound counseling with therapists who have an expertise in these matters. Most sexual addicts never get beyond “just staying out of the neighborhood,” simply because what he or she thinketh in her heart never really changes. And it does not change because they are not being challenged and held to an account. But for those that do have the courage and the power of the Holy Spirit, it is possible to change the thinking. And as they do this, the wiring that once prompted them to look for the “fix,” dies out as new wiring is created that actually wakes up the parts of the brain that was shut off and that would have enabled them to love others instead of seeing them purely as objects to be used.

    So, yeah the Bible from the beginning tells us these things. I have put some of this in clinical terms, but it is nothing that we have not already been told. It’s just that don’t dig dig deep enough to consider what we are reading to understand how this pans out in in terms of developing a dependence upon something that is not of the Lord. We do not understand or seek to understand what love really is. What more, we don’t deal with that which God has told us to put away. Instead, we turn His grace into garbage and thus mock Him in the process of harming one another. But once again, He has told how to handle these things and how to protect ourselves from those who wish to practices such things. We fail to do this simply because we don’t want someone else telling us to get rid of what we also need to put away in our life. Instead we use the “grace” excuse and then we end up with an entire church that is apostate and dead in their sins.

  13. Incognito,

    In reading your comment, I found my heart going out towards you. At the same time, I had difficulty following or understanding what you were sharing. Then when reading your statement, “First was showing grief for the loss of a love one and second was because I felt I was not loving God enough,” I had to wonder what church you were attending that would cause you to stand before a congregation that would require you to feel as though you were in sin due to experiencing grief over the loss of a love one and then because you were “not loving God enough.”

    Please help me to understand.

  14. Thanks for your kindness, basically its any thing that messes up the efficient successful movement of the organization. Grief, needing, not loving God enough, is human thus messy thus loathed. Actually it was the fact that I stood before the congregation in the first place, it made people feel uncomfortable, it caused division and it got in the way of the apologetic. If I had kept my fears, frustrations, and “sins” to myself I would have been fine. Out of site out of mind, but when one (non professional Christian) makes a mess it is a big deal. I will agree with you it does not make sense to me either but it is rampant in faith communities, really rampant.

    If I would have kept my needs to myself, something I can say I do now totally in the real world, and just played along I would have been much better off. I hope that makes sense.

  15. Incognito: My heart goes out to you. I wish there was a church that could meet all your needs, hurts, and fears. Maybe in heaven.

    But for some wisdom: there is no earthly church I can think of that will fulfill. If you find one, please let us know! But till then, I’d go into a church with little expectation, then be pleasantly surprised when they do more than drone on about scripture and try to guilt-trip you out of your hard earned money.

  16. “The evangelical religion as practiced in the US is really rather strange.”

    Yes… it is. The overzealous emphasis on music, the near-idolatry of pastors, the aging, dusty apologetics books lining bookshelves…. I’ve wondered many times what Jesus thinks of our modern-day church?

    The square-box like construct of mega-churches is so different from the church in Jesus days. I’ve always wondered why churches put so much emphasis on building expansion instead of putting aside funds to build orphanages, hospitals, homeless shelters.

    I’m far from a holy person, but I go to church because something in me craves holiness… I want to pray and grow close to the Lord. Yet, I’m welcomed with blasting rock music, and hip-to-be-cool slogans, telling me, “It’s cool to love Jesus, hot wings, and football!!! Go Tim Tebow!” Not that any of those things are bad… but if I wanted those things, I’d go to a sportsbar, and hang out with all the other drunks.

    Reconciliation comes with change and an acknowledgement to abuse. Thank you Uriah, I learned that from you. Till then, we need to send out a message that the current church is not acceptable. Only way I can think of is to speak out and boycott.

  17. Incognito,

    “If I would have kept my needs to myself, something I can say I do now totally in the real world, and just played along I would have been much better off. I hope that makes sense.

    What I hear is beyond the words you are saying is that you are really hurt and feeling alone, and isolated in your need to share what’s on your heart. And when you became transparent, it made people uncomfortable. Now, I wasn’t there so I am in the blind a bit, but I’m going to take a chance say the following. If I miss the mark, please don’t take an offense, but do let me know if I’m getting it, or not.

    Sometimes when we share our hearts, people do become uncomfortable, for a number of reasons. It could be due to sharing when this is not tradtional within the setting. it could be due to pushing the buttoms of others who also share the same feelings, but up until you did, they just shelved it away and kept quiet. It could be that no one knew what to do with it. And it could be due to people having a critical heart rather than that of compassion and empathy.

    Have you tried to sharing with one or two other people who are mature in Christ? Alot of times, when we share in larger group, what we are asking for just doesn’t get across. But when you share with a much smaller group that is geared to be emotionally available, the doors open a bit more in getting your needs met. At the same time, sometimes we think people are supposed to be able to read between the lines, so when don’t ask specificaly and people don’t come alongside of us, we feel confused and wonder why they didn’t get it, thinking they are supposed being able to read our minds.

    Igcognito, Alex has posted some sites that deals with spiritual abuse. Some of these sight also provide more support in the way of helping you to work through the hurts that you have experienced at the hand of those who are in the “church.”

    I was also thinking about how you stated that you pray for CC, while I was heating up a couple of pieces of pizza. What came to mind was Jeremiah. The “weeping” prophet who was used by God to communicate to His people regarding their rebellious and waywards hearts. Jeremiah was constantly setting the people before the Lord, because of the great love he felt towards them and the Lord. Do you know, not one person was turned back from the wickedness and corruption they were perpetrating. Never the less, he stood faithful and in the gap for them. It’s difficult to love people when they don’t love you back–particularly when you desire the touch o someone with skin on, so to speak. And in this, I think God uses this to teach us what love is. He permits our own hearts to be broken to experience his love so that we can comfort those who are also hurting.

    I think that in your transparency, it will draw others to you, if it is being done for the sake of the Lord. But first you have to realize that even when you are feeling abandoned, betrayed, and unloved, just how much our Lord and Savior love you, me, and the whole world as also was abandoned, rejected, broken, bruised, and then crucified. He had a purpose to accomplish, just as He has a plan for you. Just as He has a plan and a purpose for Jerimiah–even in the midst of the section of the road that we may be on which requires us to walk alone.

    At the same time, Igcognito—-there is something about Alex’s site that draws you to reaching out and poking your foot into the waters here. I hope and I pray that you are staying in the God’s Word while working through the hurt and disallusion you may be experiencing. These are not abnormal things to feel when feeling as if you don’t belong or that you don’t know just where to go.

    I hope this site helps you beyond anything to not look at God in terms of the wrongs that have been done to the church by those who have fallen short of Scripture. We are indiviudally responsible for what we do with Jesus and how we treat one another. So, hang in there and visit the sites that Alex has listed. Okay?

  18. What concerns me is that they run an Academy that by the way does not have many licensed teachers it is all based on who you know..people have been given the privilege to have positions there because its within the knit circle of “pew sitting members” that have been there 14 years or more with NO result whatsoever of there own spiritual growth. Family members & friends of Holguin are still employees & active servants of their children’s ministry & academy. These people are known to protect their own & shun those that speak against them so how are we sure that the children aren’t being told to not say anything or coached in what to say? Where is CPS when you really need them??!

  19. Incognito has been around here since the beginning …even before the beginning. He has some excellent warnings about the state of the Evangelical church.

  20. Grateful, thank you.

  21. Overlyconcerned @ 9

    When CCphilly put on that conference on child safety a week ago I suspected that much of it was all about PR. My heart confirms that to me even more today.

  22. Grateful,

    So is Incognito speaking in riddles or code being one of the fatalities of CC? Not wanting to be too specific, like myself?

  23. Ron Arbaugh, pastor of CC San Antonio, is answering questions. I’ll report the details. It’s very interesting and disappointing that he (and other CC Senior Pastors) seem to miss the big point.

    I think it will be a very positive and instructive article to show the mindset and contrast it with the main issues and why it’s important for CC to warn others in the System, not “restore” these types of guys to ministry with kids, etc.

  24. well, no Stone Wall with Arbaugh, which is a pleasant surprise.

    I think the interview and article forthcoming will be very instructive and illustrate and contrast the issues well.

  25. the situation is terrible. Hopefully some bit of good can come from discussing how CC can prevent this guy from surfacing at the next CC that doesn’t vet youth workers and call on the CC Association to make vetting and other preventions/policies MANDATORY in the Affiliation Agreement to be a CC Pastor.

  26. Kathy @ 16

    Have you been to CCDelco with Bob Guaglione? This sounds exactly like his church. They just built their multi million dollar building in Chadds Ford, PA. It looks exactly like a box too from the outside. They also just hired a real live rock star to be in charge of their youth ministry. Wow!

    All, I know is that pastor Bob now calls rock stars wimps from the pulpit. I guess this is how you remain Alpha dog in a Moses Model system yet at the same time attract all the kids with a real live rock star. Call the man you just hired to be your youth leader in a subtle way a wimp. How insulting! But Bob says if you stay there long enough he will offend everyone. This was deliberate though. This is exactly how Moses Model pastors work to humiliate those that work for you into submission. . Bob has also called Internet bloggers cowards. So do you think it would be ok, if I called Bob a wimp? In fact, do you think it would be ok if I called every single Calvary Chapel pastor that has not spoken out about the ongoing occurrences of abuse in CC all wimps?

    It seems that the entire glue that holds this CC umbrella together is nothing more than the fear of man and not the fear of God.

  27. Good grief. Here we go again. Thanks for highlighting this article and the connection with Calvary Chapel. Ya know, when you have incident after incident occur, it really would warrant a complete overhaul of the system. If my car keeps breaking down, I don’t keep driving it, I see what the problem is and get it fixed. It’s bizarre that grown men can’t see this for what it is. Yet, they are caught up in this system of hierarchal royalty, positions of power, influence, and it’s all about them, not the little people hurting below them. Shame on them!

  28. Alex,

    Isn’t there a CC Mens Conference coming up in Visalia?

  29. Andrew: I haven’t been to CC Delco, I’m on the other side of the country. But CC Delco does sound a lot like the new “hip-to-be-square” churches. It’s really scary how these churches are gaining momentum.

    Yeah, weird stuff hiring a rock star for the worship band. I associate rock star = drugs, sex, rock n roll. I mean, people can use a rocking beat to worship God, I’m all for that. Hey, if they want to use Rasta music to glorify God, go for it!

    But if the attraction is, “hey look at this rock star, he’s cool, he used to do drugs with Snoop Dog, he fornicates and smokes pot. But he still decided to humble himself and perform at our church!” That logic is so insulting to Jesus.

    Wouldn’t it be more godly to say, “hey, I want to teach our kids humility, they aren’t going to get a rock star worship band, instead they’re going to get some regular talented joe, with no fog light show. we’re going to use that money we saved for scholarships for their peers because teaching of the Scriptures is important. And hopefully those scholarship recipients will come back and bless our church.”

    But what do I know….

  30. Kathy, In all fairness to this rockstar, I don’t think he is the typical worldly drugs, sex and rock & roll kind of guy but I really don’t know. If this guy hasn’t realized it yet, Bob Guaglione is the top dog in this church and if you challenge him you will be black-balled as divisive exactly how Alex mentioned in the article. I think this rockstar made a name for himself and his band in the Christian world at Christian music festivals, churches, colleges, etc.. So I don’t at all want give any other impression that he hung out with snoop dog smoking pot or anything but I really don’t know. What concerns me however is that it appears that one of the primary consideration for hiring such a person for the youth seems to be based on mere popularity and celebrity status. However, I would be surprised if he had a background check at all before he got this job working with the youth. The qualifications he has for this position seems to be touring around the world internationally for the last 4 years with his popular band. Currently the band travels around in a tour bus backed with 8 adults and 3 children.

  31. this the future of calvary chapel…

    emerging church ministry at creation fest in England

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz9P6BFb3yQ

  32. Qualifications for the last youth leader in our last CC was that he was a musician with a cool drug testimony. That’s it. He was saved only 2 years, no Bible knowledge, no training, and no time to get beyond being a novice. But he is a great guy! I’m thankful for him, he just wasn’t qualified to be a youth leader.

  33. I asked Alex if it was OK to post a brief (I hope) comment on his blog relative to this incident. I will speak only to this incident and no others. I will happily answer any questions readers may have regarding this story (tomorrow; Friday) and any who would like to speak with me directly are invited to do so. I can be reached after noon tomorrow TX time at 210 658-8337.

    Alex’s headline misrepresented the story in what I believe is an unfair way. Even the news story identified the perp as a Bible instructor only who taught kids 4th-6th grade at our church. Alex promoted him to youth leader. This man is not a youth leader, an assitant pastor, or even a Bible instructor. He is simply a man who has been in our church for more than ten years who sometimes (only occasionally) assisted in children’s ministry. As I said, he has been here ten years+ and never presented any problems whatsoever.

    Additionally, like all of our children’s ministry volunteers and staff, he was fully vetted before ever serving. He had no record and still does not until this incident. We have very strict policies in place here at CCSA regarding insuring the welfare and safety of our kids. No adult is EVER permitted to be alone with any child at any time on our premises. One of the earlier comments indicated that it was lucky (or similar words) that the FBI just happened by chance on his illegal activities. That is not true. This man has been the subject of the FBI investigation for nearly 2 years, a fact I learned just yesterday from the news reporter. His crime is distributing child pornography and he is likely to spend a lot of time in prison. It also appears he has confessed to guilt in this activity and was denied bail yesterday because he did. What he did was despicable and he would never be allowed to return to any form of ministry in this church. Additionally, I would proactively warn any church if he attempted to get involved in another ministry in the unlikely event of an early release. There is no excuse for his behavior; his sin grieves the Lord’s heart. Thankfully, there were no children involved, no victims locally or in our church.

    I knwo that to most of you, this is an issue much bigger than San Amntonio, TX. I would ask you only to consider that for us, this is only a local issue. I have broken hearts, hurting people, and even somee extended (very) family members who are crushed. There is no way we could have foreseen he would do these terrible things and nothing that could be done by us or his family members to have prevented them. I am confident that he will be imprisoned for a long time and suffer the consequences of his actions.

    Having said that, may I make one final appeal? As a pastor I watch this insidious sin of pornography destroy many lives. It is the prevailing evil in the pews of churches across Anerica. It starts small and morphs into a monster. It is demonic and always takes its victims places they never dreamed they would go. If any readers of Alex’s blog are dabbling (or worse), please stop now! This man was a contributing member of ourbody, a faithful worker/provider for his sons, and would appear to all of you like a nice, humble man who loves Jesus. Now his life is ruined and the innocent lives of many who loved for him may never be the same. We have zero tolerance here at CCSA for criminals like this and, though we love him, understand the need for him to be punished.

    If you have any further questions, I will return here tomorrow afternoon or you can call me personally. Please pray for the broken hearts in San Antonio because one man sinned.

  34. Ron,

    Thank you for responding and being accountable to the body of Christ, as should be. I am grateful you see the wisdom and responsibility to be open, God no doubt will assure you it is a good thing. Ofcourse he appeared to be a nice humble man who loves Jesus, don’t they all appear that way, I know the demonic monster pastor/and his family I can tell you about seems to enjoy the same game but that is not your concern I guess, and it isn’t cc concern because they seem to have allowed him to fly the dove.

  35. Ron,

    Thank you for responding and being accountable to the body of Christ, as should be. I am grateful you see the wisdom and responsibility to be open, God no doubt will assure you it is a good thing. Ofcourse he appeared to be a nice humble man who loves Jesus, don’t they all appear that way, I know the demonic monster pastor/and his family I can tell you about seems to enjoy the same game but that is not your concern I guess, and it isn’t cc concern because they seem to have allowed him to fly the dove.

  36. Hi Ron.

    Had a good back and forth with Ron Arbaugh. He answered all my questions, which is appreciated.

    I’ve been out all day working, not manning the store so couldn’t finish the article about our online interview from earlier today.

    Ron has said the guy is an “assistant” to the youth instructor. That’s still someone “leading” the youth in a supervisor capacity. The adult is certainly not a fellow youth and student or attendee, it’s still a leadership/oversight position around kids.

    I took my initial information from the News Article that first broke the story in San Antonio.

    Now that I have Ron’s responses via email, I will finish writing my story and publishing the details of our interview.

    I’ll report it the best I can.

    The point, IMO, is not whether or not the title given to Holguin was what Ron wants to call him…that’s splitting hairs and straining the gnat. The guy is an adult. He represents Calvary Chapel in some sort of leadership/oversight/supervisory position over kids as an adult assistant. You can split hairs on the title all you want Ron. I’ve got no problem calling him a Youth Leader b/c that’s what he is when he’s assisting the instructor, he’s helping lead youth at your church.

    My main concerns were expressed in the interview and the questions were answered.

    I’ll report the details and folks can read it and make up their own mind and you’re welcome to comment and make any corrections or clarifications and give your take.

  37. however, i won’t change the headline, b/c it’s correct.

    Holguin is not a 4th, 5th or 6th grader attending sunday school at your CC.

    He’s an adult and as an “assistant” is still leading. He doesn’t have to be “the” Lead to be a leader. When i attended Calvary Chapel and assisted with youth ministry, i was called a “Youth Leader” and was one of several “Youth Leaders” assisting the main Lead.

    What i find typical is splitting hairs by CC Pastors in my opinion as an intentional effort to change the subject. It’s called Red Herring in Logic/Argument. It won’t fly here.

  38. Ron, thank you for responding. I have a few questions but will hold them until after Alex posts the interview, I suspect they will be answered then.

    I will be praying for all those involved, I pray that the only crime this man committed was in fact distribution of p@rnagraphic materials.

  39. I do not see Ron as ‘splitting hairs’ and I’m sure that most anyone familiar with a church would make a distinction between a ‘Youth Leader’ and one of the many volunteer servants that help out at a church each week – especially the teacher aides in Sunday School.

    There certainly is not a universally recognized definition of some of these terms. For instance, at CCLE we do not use the title, ‘pastor’, casually, whereas some churches will call multiple leaders by the title. We have a mens’ ministry leader. Others will call the same person the mens’ pastor. We have youth leaders, others will call them youth pastors.

    But when a church has a ‘leadership meeting’ it typically does not involve every single volunteer at the church. That should be obvious.

    The vast majority of readers who read Alex’s headline will think of someone with more responsibility than a teacher’s aide. Thus, the headline is misleading – if in fact total accuracy and transparency is the goal.

    Having said that, even a teacher’s aide must be vetted and supervised, both of which Pastor Ron says took place at the church he pastors.

  40. Ron the fact that you are coming on here speaks volumes to me, gives me hope that there might be just one man left within CC to deal with this head on.

  41. Alex I am glad I waited before posting my comment because I was going to ask Ron whether or not he realizes that another adult assisting a teacher with children is in fact in a leadership position? Ron I will humbly say that I believe your comment above is filled with semantics, but you are definitely to be applauded for speaking to Alex, regardless of what your purpose is for doing so. This site has been getting a lot of attention and with the support of Julie Anne who won the suit that was brought against her this year, I truly believe that CC’s nationwide are on alert to the fact that there is a strong chance that the systems shortfalls will become so public that business nationwide will be impacted. This is indeed a tragic case. Ron what if I told you that I have never lived a more victorious Christian life than since I left the CC I left? What if I told you that there are people who have come on this blog and said the same thing? What do you do with a statement like that Ron? Leaving CC was when I figured out the fullness of God’s grace and the victory established for us through Jesus’blood. At the CC I left a bizaare demonic theology was taught that we were all sinners who could not help but sin every minute. This theology did not grasp the truth that if we die daily and let Christ live in us we see victory and sin becomes an occasional thing and not the master of our lives.

    Ron I re-read your comment and I see traces of that scary theology. You can make an appeal for people to beware of pornography. It is a sweet sentiment. In ourselves we cannot fully combat sin. This is why Jesus died and rose again. He made us righteous and gave us the ability to live as more than conquerors. We don’t have to be slaves to sin anymore. In occasional times of sin we have Jesus Christ as our Advocate. We can live by grace and enter into the rest that God wants for us. If you can explain how it is that since I left CC I understand that fully and live in a level of victory and peace and certainity of the grace and love of Jesus than I ever did while at CC and why other people across the country come to this site and say the same thing then I will truly believe that you understand that the problems at CC are unfortunately reflected by what happened to your youth leader.

    It is a tragic thing but in your role as a leader I would suggest you ask yourself how someone could comfortably live a double life for so long while under your leadership. The grace and love of God and the power of the Gospel changes lives. I can tell you that I have never worked anywhere in the secular world where someone was arrested for pedophilia. Of course that is not to say that it is not possible. There are probably people at you church who have never worked in a secular setting in which someone was arrested for pedophila. But they can now say that the religious organization they attended cannot say the same. Considering the nationwide CC affiliation, they can also say that the religious organization they attend has a history nationwide. That is a problem Ron.

    The newspaper article attached to this starts out speaking about a screen name “friend of grimm” that the FBI agent was communicating with and later goes on to mention Holguin’s identity being determined from a screen shot for that user name. It also mentions that the investigation started last December. The last line of the same article also says that Holguin “led children”. If any of those things are not true then please see about correcting them with the appropriate party, but the article as it stands seems consistent with the inferences made here.

    Ron I am praying for you. I mean that. This cannot possibly be easy for you or the attendees at your CC, especially in light of the fact that this kind of thing has happened so often. I would ask only one thing: Get to the root of why anyone in your congregation or in CC nationwide would be so comfortable living such a heinous double life. Suggestion: Start with the Bible because the CC Distinctives and the CC leadership style and other aspects of the CC MO do not seem to be providing the correct answers. It is crucial that someone gets the right answers so that these things and the other allegations that have been brought against CC nationwide can be addressed in a way that brings lasting change.

  42. Anyone new to this site just for clarification the suit I referred to was the suit brought against blogger Julie Anne by her own former church BGBC. I truly believe that her victory in that suit and the things highlighted on this blog and the additional efforts of WW and other blogs have highlighted that there are really scary issues at work in some churches nationwide and that now more than ever before CC nationwide has been alerted to the fact that people truly think there is something wrong at the core of how they operate.

  43. Ron,

    First, I’m sorry for what you all are having to go through.

    Second, I really appreciate your dealing with this directly.

    Third, I hope you will hear Alex’s broader points.

  44. As our country falls deeper and deeper into depravity and perversion these kind of crimes will only multiply.There are over 700,000 men on the sex offenders listed nation wide.56% percent of them re offend after they get out of prison.
    We do have a crises in the church and outside of it.

  45. Overly Comcerned,

    What can I say, thank you, God gives/uses you, may he keep you humble as he increases your wisdom. To God be all glory!

  46. Additionally … I don’t know how Ron Arbaugh define’s “leaders” in his church, but I do know that in the three CC’s I was in, as well as the many my family and friends were in, there was a broad definition of of the word/title … whether it was a formal title or an implied temporary position.

    I was told I was a leader when I was “aiding” someone, as well as when I was merely attending functions because people looked to us as examples. I even saw women be called leaders when they brought food to an event because they were setting an example for others.

    While some CC’s might not use such a broad definition for leadership, so many do within The brand that promotes itself as fairly consistent from one CC to the next. So I think it’s “understood” by many that any adult in a children’s class is a “leader.”

  47. Had to cover the subject of p0rn in my inner city high school class. The boys did not have a clue it could be harmful at all. Their eyes nearly popped out of their heads as I described some of the horrible effects of it.

  48. Being a Calvary Chapel Children’s Ministry “volunteer” I can say that there’s very little distinction between volunteer and ministry leader except that the leader gets a very small stipend. I would say the volunteer is more hands-on with the actual teaching and watching over children than the actual leader.

    That being said, I’m not going to point fingers at Pastor Ron. I know it’s like pulling teeth to get anyone to volunteer in the Children’s ministry and many times children’s ministry is negated to baby-sitting. They will take almost anyone. Besides there’s a high turn-over rate, if they had to background check every volunteer who helped out, they would never have anyone.

    But I’m glad Alex posted this article, not as a attack on Calvary Chapel (which he spinned to do so, but whatever, it’s his blog) but to educate other about Holguin. I think this could’ve happened anywhere, in any church across America.

  49. And about Children’s Ministry, I remember there was an extensive interview/application process to volunteer at Calvary Chapel Fullerton and there was an orientation. I was a bit insulted with the application, as they asked very personal questions, such as if I was watching pornography, or ever fornicated, or had urges to have sex with children. I never turned in my application because I thought it was so rude and decided not to volunteer and call it a day. (actually I filled it out in jest and emailed it to my now ex-boyfriend as a joke… oh boy, if they ever read what I put on the application, LOL).

    Well, the Children’s Ministry person called me, asked me when she could schedule me in, and said I could turn in the application later. The next week, I’m volunteering in class, in the next three months, I’m leading my own class. I never turned in the application and I never got fingerprint checked (but I’m not a sexual predator). There had to be at least 3 different Children Ministry directors during the 2 1/2 years I served there, at least a dozen assistant (or helpers they called them, since I was the lead helper). I served in a Children’s Ministry at another church, and it was the exact same scenario.

    I’m just stating a fact. Calvary Chapel can do whatever it wants with this info. I can see where running background checks and fingerprints and an extensive interview process just isn’t realistic with the program they have in place.

  50. Ron is a liar I went to his church and ron never deals with anything he turns his back and acts as if nothing is going on …and further more I know for a fact that Mr.Holguin not only worked at your church as a youth leader for 4, 5, 6 graders but I also know that for a fact that he worked as a teachers aid at you school that you hold there at cc … I have been to multiple cc and it seems that all cc pastors never want to face reality and do what is right by the lord but instead they choose to turn thier back as if they dont know ..now not only will Mr.Holguin have to face the truth for the sins he did but you Mr.Ron will have to as well for the lies you just wrote in ink on the internet ..you will face the truth!!!

  51. Steve Wright said (glad to see you put your name behind your words btw):

    “The vast majority of readers who read Alex’s headline will think of someone with more responsibility than a teacher’s aide. Thus, the headline is misleading – if in fact total accuracy and transparency is the goal.”

    I disagree. I think a lot of folks are outside the Church Bubble and would see an Adult Volunteer standing their assisting the Instructor/Leader/Teacher or whatever CC approved title for the other Adult in the kids classroom at church…would consider “both” Adults as “Leaders” over the children.

    But, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    It is still splitting hairs and a Red Herring.

    Instead of coming on here and trying to make mountains out of mole hills like what to call the Perp who is a sicko…why don’t you publicly state for the record that you think it’s wrong to allow a CC Pastor accused of child molestation by his own blood son to remain in the pulpit until Calvary Chapel can do a full investigation into all the allegations surrounding Bob and then make a “report” and ruling just like Calvary Chapel did with regards to Phil Aguilar and Set Free.

    Is that too much to ask? Or, is what I refer to Holguin’s capacity on the sunday school of much more importance?

    Are you willing to step up as a CC Pastor and demand the CC Association implements Mandatory Background Checks Sytem-wide as part of the Affiliation Agreement/Contract between CC and Senior Pastors who are part of your Association? Are you willing to demand a list of Policies to help protect kids including removal of a CC Pastor who is accused of Child Abuse or Molestation until a full investigation into the allegations and until a ruling by CC is made?

  52. It is telling that I get more Public Outrage and indignation from a Calvary Chapel Pastor like Steve Wright over calling an Adult Sunday School “assistant’ a “youth leader”…than he has ever expressed over the fact one of his fellow CC Pastors is accused of molestation by his blood son and is in the pulpit and fully endorsed by CC to this moment w/o the church conducting a full investigation into the matters and making a judgment on it per Matt. 18, 1 Timothy 5:19-22, 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 etc etc etc.

    Typical stuff. I’d say I’m used to it, but it still upsets me.

  53. Wow Grace, that speaks volumes about Pastor Ron.

    Pastor Ron, you would dare come on here and lie? You’re a very brave man. Get ready to get torn apart…

  54. I know this sounds stupid but when I went into ministry back in the early 1980′s in the faith based community I had my own back ground check done and copies of it. When I offered it, my dmv record, and resume the volunteer leader at the church looked at me like I was some type of nut.

  55. Ron, is Grace’s post true?

    She says Holguin’s a “youth leader” and also that he’s a teacher’s aid in the school at your CC?

    I still don’t understand why you and Steve Wright would die on the hill of trying to force a distinction between Adult “assistant” and “leader” as anyone who is an adult who is in that classroom with kids is leading them, but knock yourselves out.

    How about you both step up and express some similar public outrage over how I and others have been treated by Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel?

    Why does Phil Aguilar’s victims get a 318 page report and investigation funded by Calvary Chapel…and we don’t? Why did Aguilar and Set Free’s victims get the support of Calvary Chapel in validating their claims and warning the public…but we don’t?

  56. …and this is where CC Pastors Ron Arbaugh and Steve Wright get very quiet.

    Neither will publicly express any outrage over how many of us have been treated, but they’re indignant over calling Holguin a “youth leader” vs. an adult “youth assistant”

  57. Youth leader or youth assistant ..you do still see the word youth in there correct ..that mean he was still around youth Mr.Ron you know that Holguin was in fact with the youth not only at church but at school as well and you will have to face it ..Mr.Holguin was in fact in the youth ..with the children and if Ron claims to not have known about his actions then maybe ron needs to paymore attention to his church for Holguin even admits to have been doing this for years ..so tell me Ron how did you not know about this?!? I mean this man works worked with the children of your church and your school … he has been a part of your ministry for years so how did you not see this?!? Dont you think you of all people should pay close attention to the people that are watching/teaching your youth … if they are youth leaders or youth assistants ..they still are with the youth …because like I said I know that Holguin for a fact not only worked at the church but also worked at the school there at cc.

  58. “Neither will publicly express any outrage over how many of us have been treated, but they’re indignant over calling Holguin a “youth leader” vs. an adult “youth assistant” ”

    I don’t know if it was meant to be, but this is hilarious. Probably because it’s so sad, the only thing one can do is laugh.

    If this guy was on Ron’s payroll, he should’ve been background checked and held to a higher standard. If it’s true, as we don’t know yet, but Pastor Ron, you’re upset over his title, yet you left out a VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL… such as he was a Teacher’s Aide at your school!

    The sad part is… you LIED! I was even standing up for you, saying it was impossible for you to check out everyone, and most could’ve empathized with you… but you made a bigger mess for yourself by lying! You’re being the exact thing that every complains about on this blog!

  59. I’m confused; is it youth leader, youth assistant, or maybe youth worker… and who makes that decision, the lead Pastor, the guru or guru want to be?

    If things go wrong maybe it’s the Board!

    And is it a church, mega church, cult or cult like?

  60. Q, LOL! :lol:

    Let me make this crystal frickin’ clear, OK?

    At Ron Arbaugh’s CC Franchise the officially approved title by God’s anointed is:

    Youth “Assistant”

    And if you call Holguin otherwise, you are a LIAR and trying to exaggerate things! I rebuke you publicly in the name of the Lord!!!! ;-)

    …but I won’t say a peep publicly about Chuck Smith lying or Bob Grenier being a fully endorsed CC pastor in good standing despite the terrible allegations surrounding him

  61. I feel really bad, I don’t want to tear pastor Ron apart… but do you get where we’re coming from?

    It’s not that you’re responsible for Holguin distributing child porn… and I was not even going to blame you for not background checking all your volunteers…

    It’s that you refuse to take any responsibility for what happened at your church. Then, you covered up what really happened there by complaining about titles and warning bout the evils of porn. I know it sucks to apologize and be patient with everyone who warned you about Holguin (probably Grace herself) but then you wouldn’t have been caught in a corner, covering up the story… on this site, of all places, where you’re not going to find much love towards pastors who cover up abuse.

    The irony just has my head spinning. I’m going to be honest… I’m growing farther away from the CC Movement every day, almost to the point, where I want to become it’s enemy and see it destroyed. Why would God have put upon your heart to come on here and “leave out important details” (lie is a harsh word)? You could’ve just ignored us, every other CC Pastor has.

    Pastor Ron, there’s serious problems here… I know you’re not going to state in public all the wrongs with the CC Movement, but something is allowing Pastors to think it’s ok to cover abuse in their churches. I can’t come to your interview tomorrow, I’ll be out of town, but I hope everyone will be merciful and kind to you.

  62. There won’t be a live blog interview, I’m going to post the email interview and another article about the situation

  63. people are beginning to “see” the cc emperor-empire is naked after all…

  64. Alex, for months after we first met I encouraged you on the importance of your own personal accuracy given your call to truth, accountability and transparency of others. For your own credibility, back when you had the ear of several CC pastors, including mine.

    I also learned a long time ago that when Alex Grenier sees something one way, there is no convincing otherwise. And multiple sentences of explanation justifying said opinion are sure to follow from your keyboard.

    I don’t know Ron. I’ve never knowingly conversed with the man. Based on what you wrote earlier, I entered in with my simple opinion into what I thought was an amicable discussion between the two of you concerning this atrocity.

    An opinion which you now call my ‘expressing outrage’, ‘indignant’, ‘dying on a hill’. Words that have meanings not even remotely close to an accurate description. Nowhere close to reality.

    It is your blog. You will write what you want.

  65. Steve, it’s called hyperbole. Paul the Apostle employed it often to impart truths. Even Jesus did with the Pharisees.

    It is still telling that you continue to post publicly criticizing my use of hyperbole, yet you won’t publicly state the injustice by Chuck Smith and the Bob Grenier situation and you won’t comment on why Calvary Chapel would lead a campaign and investigate and then publish a 318 page report about Phil Aguilar and Set Free…but won’t police their own.

    But, I’m sure you’ll post another comment straining another gnat while swallowing the camel in your Camp

  66. Hyperbole is found throughout the bible and is used often by pastors to impart truths

    …but, when it’s used on occasion by their critics…it’s suddenly a bad thing

    Paul the Apostle wrote in the bible:

    Titus 1:12-13 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith

    Now, was every last single Cretan as Paul states in the “infallible, inerrant, perfect Word of God” “always” those things? No. Paul used hyperbole to communicate a point…yet we still don’t criticize Scripture for it.

  67. You’re gnat straining again Steve.

    In my experience with you, you excel at silence in addressing the Big Problems in CC with regards to abuses and Chuck Smith’s lying etc.

    And you excel at straining gnats of critics pointing out the duplicity of CC.

    You say “it’s your blog” to which i say “it’s your Movement/Church/Associaton/Denomination”

  68. Ron & Steve, are you guys going to let this statement by Grace stand?

    Did this man also serve in the school? Was it 2 times, 6 times, 10 times. 10 years is a long time, did you follow his every serving opportunity or was this told to you by your staff. If it was staff, we’re they being truthful. Are there records of who served in what class and when. 4th, 5th, and 6th, again how many times in each grade level did he serve? How big is your children’s ministry?

    Do you have a copy of his backround check on file? How old is this check? Have you checked out everyone in your children’s leadership department or only the ones you classify as leaders? How old are these background checks. What if your short handed? Do you just pull in anyone to help or do you have an approved vetted list?

    Do you know the answers to these questions yourself or do you have to ask your staff? I don’t expect any of these to be answered, I just hope you are asking yourself how responsible you are for what happens in your church. What has happened to the children in your church? Did you even ask?

    Bob Grenier’s board doesn’t care to ask any of us or Bob’s children what happened, his assistant pastors don’t care that his son accuses him of molesting him. Why are we to assume you are any different when you and your fellows continue to show indifference to this serious situation? We are to trust you and believe what you say just like we did Bob Grenier?

    If you want to do good Steve, then do it. Remove Bob Grenier’s dove. Steve you have an opportunity once again to defrock Bob Grenier. Once again gather your men and make the drive.

  69. Pastor Write I am a long time reader of this and other blogs and Alex has been very kind to me, we have very little in “communion” in reality. I am extremely liberal, though Alex has changed my view on the second amendment issues of weapon ownership. I may never own a firearm because of family and personal issues, but I pray my neighbor is well armed if I need their help. I hope that makes some sense. As someone who sits in the cheap seats of the evangelical church, trust me Alex sits on the the 50 yard line compared to where I reside. I would offer another view, abuse is horrid, having dealt with it as has Alex. My father was not a “saint” in that way, having been slapped around, told I wished you were dead, never born and other such phrases I experienced my response was to try to find out why my father was like this. In the faith community it was because my father was a heathen piece of crap and I should abandon him and go serve the Lord.

    My father reconciled with me, it was hard for him, he asked forgiveness and gave all he could. He did awful things, but he also saw awful things in WW2. I stayed at home to help take care of him in his declining hope because making peace with him was important to me. At times my father would come into my room, I had a bathroom in my room, my father would walk in and look at me on the computer and tell me what he thought of me. I wont state what he said, basically it was really hurtful. But on his death bed he reconciled with all his heart, I was there, no other sibling, one was locked up the other was in a different state. I stayed with him, against all advice from the faith community, and I mean with deep passion. In his passing I was reminded from the faith community he most likely was in hell, and I did not preach the “Gospel” good enough. Imagine that you, personally are responsible for your fathers damnation. All I wanted was to be restored, which my father did in spades, but still he, and most likely me will also burn.

    I cant imagine what Alex struggled with, because his dad seemed to use Jesus as an excuse for his apparent abuse. My father admitted his “evils” and asked for forgiveness and he told me he loved me. None of my other siblings heard this, It still echoes in my heart and soul. It was one of the greatest gifts my father ever gave me. My father was not a preacher, he actually loathed the evangelical religion. But my father did reach out to me, he forgave me, and trust me there was much to forgive I failed him in so many ways as a son, and I was able to forgive him as well. I am actually proud to be his son, he gave his youth, and even his very soul in that darn war for me to live free. They truly were the best generation, we owe them. Offered for what little it might be worth.

  70. Dear Pastor Ron,

    I appreciate your willingness to come on this site. I truly do for it is not often that a CC Pastor provides any type of explanation concerning those issues that near and dear to those who have been a part of Calvary Chapel, but have left due to the abuses committed against by the leadership. I read through your comment a few times to help me to understand what you were attempting to get across to the readers here on this site. Again, I thank you being so opened and providing the information that I needed in order to understand your take on this man that allegedly committed sexual crimes. I particularly like the fact that you made an appeal to everyone to get pornography out of their life and not to do so does lead one into even worse activities.

    Is there a “but” in all of this? I’m afraid so. But first wanted to applaud you for making an effort, because I believe that you believe what you are sharing with us is true and accurate., base on where you stand in your perspective towards such issues. In turn, please permit me to share a few things with you.

    First of all, I realize you do not know me and because you are a Sr. Pastor, there is more information available for people to know more about you. Because of my own situation with CC that has literally place my life in jeopardy, I sign on with another name. For your own reference, just know that I am qualified to speak on several matters concerning addiction/mental health/apologetic/theological topics. But most of all I am qualified to speak to you and all other CC Pastors being in the Lord and having attended Calvary Chapel for more than 3 decades.

    At first appearance I can see where you might believe that this man’s activities ought to be separated from being affiliated or associated with Calvary Chapel. In particular, the Calvary Chapel that you are in your position, the Senior Pastor. I can understand your concerns that people might be influence in thinking that it is unsafe to attend CC San Antonio, not knowing if other predators are there as well. I totally agree with you that the church by and large are experiencing a tremendous failing due to its leaven state of unrepentant sin in their lives. And that is it your heart, that they get it out of their lives.
    I can even understand why you would like to believe that there was no way that anyone would have known that this man was what is referred to a “sleeper” was not detected because of the person he appeared to be among you. However, in your efforts to make sure this that this does not occur again, you are sorely lacking in being honest with yourself. Please be patient with me as I share what you and every CC Pastor ought to know and should know given the background of most CC Pastors.

    Quibbling over if this person was or was not leader of some sort does not establish priority of protecting the flock. The flock needs to be protected from corruption, abuse, and leaven (heretical teachings and sins, such as listed in I Corintians 5-6, including those sexual activities that exploits men, women, and children-Period. Calvary Chapel, including yourself is well acquainted with many offenses that have taken place over the years, and more recently the one that just occurred by one of your own congregants, therefore, one must ask—what is it that needs to be done to stop these things and what is it in our own belief that we are missing that leads us to believe we are not responsible for them? What is it in our theological teaching that enables us to avoid addressing these issues. What is it the structure of the Mose’s model that cuts the congregation off that we did not or do not have adequate knowledge and awareness of our congregants and those in the leadership that enables these things to keep on happening? What is it that needs to be changed to get rid of the leaven and to protect those whe say that we love and that we are teaching others to walk with the Lord, but they are not?

    Pastor Ron, this man was in your congregation for 10 years. So what? With your experience and background you should have known, precisely because of this. But you didn’t because of the way you were trained and taught to run your church and to adhere to the way Calvary Chapel separates itself from the body at large. If, it was not structured in the manner that it is, being that congregants really do not have a voice in the decision making processes, nor is there a fellowship that promotes transparency, accountability, and church discipline across the board between leadership and congregants, then it would not been so easy for this man to have led a duplicious lifestyle.

    Now, I understand you do not want to speak on anything outside of this terrible event that has occurred and brought attention to your Calvary Chapel. I can respect that, but at the same time what has happen is very much a pattern and the way things are handled by Calvary Chapel across the board. Yet no one is listening. Instead, what you have shared a concerned that anyone would thing that this man’s activities were connected in anyway with CCSA that would put the children in jeopardy or that CCSA failed to do anything that permitted such to creep unaware. Yet at the same time, Pastor Ron when you do and when you have had knowledge of such, no matter if it was in your CC or another, did you stand up and demand that their be an investigation. No, you did not—–why? Because of the same mindset that you have caused yourself to believe and to share with us in order to clear you and CCSA from any wrong doing, failures, and responsibility concerning this person you had working closely with the children.

    Now, I truly don’t mean to be disrespectul, rude, or mean minded here. I hope you don’t take what I am saying in this manner. Somehow, Pastor Ron, it is with the utmost prayer, hope, and petition of many that what has been said over and over and over again, that our concerns are able to penetrate through the thick walls of defenses that are set up to bring all the Calvary Chapel into doing what needs to be done to enable everyone to be safe and to be protected that which should not be named among us. In particular, our children who are beaten, battered, bruised, molested, raped, terrorized, and left under the bus when as adults attempt to hold that perpetrator to an account.

    To say to others get rid of the pornography is not good enough, Pastor Ron. To hold people to an account and to provide church discipline does set an example and enable people to be healed and to repent and to reconcilate. But to tell someone that they need to get rid of something that they know they can easily hide while appearing to be someone they are not, Calvary Chapel is a perfect environment to do this in. As a matter of fact it enables these activities to go on and is even protected and treated as though it is not a big things among those in the leadership that commits them even when provided the evidence or right in the midst of the congregation, men’s or Pastor conferences. Yet when brought to the attention of CC leadership, that person is literally ripped apart in such a way that there very hearts are shatterd due to the trust they once held but now is being betrayed for speaking truth.

    Pastor Ron, you know that I am speaking the truth here. And I will tell you why you know. Before you became a pastor, according to your profile on your site, you were heavily involved in a lifestyle that consume you in such a way that you could and would not look after the welare you your wife and others because of your addictive mindset and drug of choice, which appears to be gambling. You know as well as I know, that gambling was not all that you particpated in becuause of the nature of that “beast.” You also know that you were quite adept at practicing deception and could take any role that enabled you to get what you wanted, when you wanted, how you wanted, where you wanted, and with who you wanted to it to be that you acheived these things. In other words, you were a chameleon. It didn’t matter who the person was, male or female, or how old they were. As long as you got you fix. Your heart was hardened and your ability to be empathic towards the feelings of others left you void of being able to be concerned towards the welfare of others.

    Now what I’ve just now brought to the surface is in no way to be interpeted as holding you to an account or cast stones at you, for these things were put away when you came to the Cross. But what I am saying is this. It is a well known fact that most CC Pastors share in a similar background, therefore, to say that they do not know that these things are taking place and have taken place but will not lift a finger to hold those to an account within the leadership and in the body because they believe that its not their business to do so if it happened outside of their congregation, yet at the same time share a common bond with other CC Pastors by affiliation and the association set up to guide and direct them to gether in a common brotherhood? That, quite frankly is what you know as well as I know is a cop out.

    This man was able to stay under the radar in your church, Pastor Ron because staying under the radar is a common practice within CC period. CC needs to understand that the very structure that it is seated upon is that which fosters these types of activities. To say to anyone, do not judge, less you be judge is misusing scripture to silence that which needs to be addressed and set before the congregation letting everone know and to take warning that these things will not be tolerated in any part of the body of Christ.

    But how does one go about doing this. My bent on this is that it is really difficult for me to believe that men who have come out of such a background are at lost in rectifying these things. God’s word has clearly told us what must be done. That is, to purge the leaven, beginning at the top and this means Pastor Ron that for you and every CC Pastor needs to take stock and getting rid of every Pastor that is guilty of practicing any type of sexual sin and form of domestic violence and child abuse.

    With the background that CC Pastor have, they are not stupid or naive and they know what’s up with this Pastor or that Pastor, as well as, knowing how to get to the heart of a matter in order to determine if a person is running a game on them. But what you don’t know because of lack of knowledge is what the long term affect domestic violence and child abuse has upon those who placed their trust in the leadership of their Pastors to protect them, particularly if committed by a Pastor as a husband or in a parental role. What more, CC leadership is quite ignorant and even more arrogant in thinking for one millameter of a second that to turn their heard and close their eyes and remain silent in enabling a victim from being able to be heard and then protected is in fact causing even greater harm and perpetuating the abuse they have already experienced by the initial perpetrator.

    Pastor Ron, there are so many other things I would like to share, but at the same time, I would invite you to read through this entire site while dropping the defenses that are so ingrained in you due to your past, but also unbeknown to you are also how the Mose’s model have been framed and thorougyly integrated into a doctrine to that exemplies such beliefs. I would encourage and invite you to move forward in considering these things in light of Romans 8 and I Corinthians 5 and 6, so that you as a Pastor can stand up in obedience to our Lord to stand up for and alongside those who have metaphorically nailed their petition to the Wittenberg door of Calvary Chapel.

    Pastor Ron, you know as well as we do, it is not about the specific title this man in your congreation held. The fact is he did attend your church and you did not know him well enough simply because the structure CC has in place permits him to hide, to live a double life and as long he didn’t rock the boat, you found favor in him, enough to enable him to be a Dr. Jekyl/Mr Hyde.

    Yet you yoursel and every Pastor who have come out of a lifestyle such as yours know how to play this game and what it looks like. And because the flock is not really what is important, he was able to stay under the radar just like Alex’s stepfather, Bob Grenier has been able to do as well as so many do. CC is at it is because of the lack of repentance, accountability and the failure to think more of its flock than what why do of the public appearance that they fight hard to maintain.

  71. Clarification on typo errors:

    Calvary Chapel is as it is, because of the lack o repentance, accountability, and the failure to die to themselves as servants rather than promotors of a public image that truly does not pan out in what really happens towards those who are violated or have perpetrated thse violation upon others.

  72. Blessings to you all. Let me clarify some things as a member on Staff at CCSA.
    1. Robert does not work at the Academy. He works as a butcher at Randolph AFB.
    2. Robert was never left alone with any children. He assists in our midweek service helping with the 4th-6th grade children’s church in which there are at least 3-4 adults in the room the whole time. 2 of them are me and my wife. CCSA does not allow any adult to be alone with a child under any circumstances.
    This is a total shock to all of us because he was a dear friend to a lot of us here. This could have happened at anyone’s church and it would have been a total surprise because there were no warning signs. I hope that this makes things a little more clear. Your prayers are coveted.
    Blessings

  73. Alex,

    Hold fast, to that which is of the Lord. You’re doing well in keeping their feet to the fires inspite of their attempts to distract and veer away from answering the very question they fail to realize, God is asking as well of them.

    That is, “what about Alex.” Sound like a great and well needed documentary. Boy, I can think of several groups that would be interested in traveling through the history of CC to gain support in passing a law that would extend the period for statute of limitation. What more, if this went worldwide, can you imagine the changes that might come about regarding child abuse and domestic violence in the church. Hmmmm.

    Incognito, I liked what you shared. CC lacks empathy and this has much to do with the failings they have towards the body of Christ because without it, parishioner, congregants, or attendees are viewed as a commodity and expendable if truth is exposed. I am so glad you and your father were able to find peace with each other. Yes, the war does terrible things to people, particularly when in the thick of the battle. No matter if you are on foregin soil or domestic. I am so glad your fther was able to give you this gift and you were able to receive it take it into your heart.

    Overly Concerned. Praying hearts will be pierced and convicted.

  74. Dear Clarifier

    Thank you for letting us know this, but this is not the point we were trying to get across here. It’s is good to know that you have this policy in place. But for your pastor to say to you or to anyone, there was no way to know is not true. Anyone who has come out of a lifestyle of addiction knows only too well how to play under the radar and lead a duplicious lifestyle. Unfortunaly, due to CC’s failure to integrate many things within it governing body that includes those who attend, it is easy for men such as this person to come in, act like a Christian, say the right things, not rock the boat, and in turn lead you to believe that he was of such a character that was above reproach.

    “This could have happened at anyone’s church and it would have been a total surprise because there were no warning signs.”

    The warning signs were there, your pastor simply due the way CC is structured ignored them. You and other may not have been able to discern them, but your pastor given his background could have if he would have applied what he has practiced himself before becoming a Christian. What more, it is of vital importance that your church bring in domestic violence and child abuse experts to train you and the staff, as well as Pastors in understanding how these things are identified and handled for the good of all, including those who commits such things against others. This man is not the only person in your congregation—let me assure you, there are others that are guility of various leaven that falls along the same lines. If you say there is not, or you take offense, then that is to your own harm—–for not paying heed to what we are trying to get across to those in all the CC.

  75. We all are aware that domestic violence, child abuse, and sexual immorlity is commonly practiced among those who call themselves Christians. Most of us have heard that the divorce rate among the Christian community now exceeds that in “the world.” Why?

    Could it be that we are intepreting scripture in ligh of our desires to hide, to cover up, to excuse those things that are of the flesh. What about the salvation message we receive that tells us that as long as we believe and trust in Jesus, our sins are covered by the blood? And what about the love of God vs. the love we have towards one another. Are we living in Roman’s 8 or are we falling short being paralyzed or captured by the flesh in Romans 7? I believe that because Calvary Chapel has virtually turned their heads allowing these things to be practices among the leadership, that is has and is sending a clear message to those who attend, those who believe they are saved, and those outside of Calvary Chapel that it’s okay to live this kind of way. I believe that this is a cheap kind of grace that is being taught and I believe that unless Calvary Chapel start cleaning house and reform their teachings as well as rethink the Mose’s model, God is going permit a curse in a form of a devasting and heartbreaking scourge to come upon it. I pray with all my heart it is not too late for I believe that the Calvary Chapel very much looks like the church of Sardis and Laodicia. I believe that it has become mesmerized in its own narcissistic mirror and have lost all sensitivity to God’s Word, warnings, and its people. I believe that this site is evidence of the fruit of such sin in the camp. That is, we are those who have witnessed and been a by product of the fallout of the consequences wrought by those who have been wanton practicing such things. Be it for money, power, control, sex, and other self centered and vainglory purposes. As Overly Concerned has brought to our attention to tell anyone that have virtually choice but to sin is not according to scripture—not if one is sowing to the spirit. And the more one does this, the less he or she will sin. Period.

    I think Overly Concerned in comment 41 that was made is ever so timely and that if we want to be rid of these things then we must do as he has suggested. Even more, we must do what Jesus has told us to do. That is, to walk in the light as He is in the light. He has told us over and over again that we must repent and walk in obedience. Paul has told us to rid ourselves of these things. Hebrews tells us about the great clouds of witnesses surrounding us who have endured so much more than we can imagined, to put off those things that would hold us back and bind us into bondage. If you are a Christian, there is no excuse for you have the Holy Spirit that enables to put these things away and to put on the mind of Christ. But if you are not, but say you are then you will perish. For without the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to walk in the way of the Lord.

    I found the following part of an article that addresses adultery, child abuse and pedophilia, and pornography. Pastor Ron urged us to rid ourselves of pornography because he is concerned. And even, which I am not able to discern, his motives are for some other purpose, the exhortation still holds true, so lets not dismiss this. But know this as well, Calvary Chapel, God has instructed us to hold those to an account do practice them or have committed a wrong against any who has committed such things. To ignore Alex’s or anyone’s complaint because it concerns someone who anyone has told you that it is not your business to be involved is a lie from the pit. You, who are a representative of the leadership of Calvary Chapel, wherever you are have a biblical mandate to step in on his behalf as well as the behalf any claim they have or are being victimized by such a one. To not to do so, you share the sin that has, or was, or is being committed. To align scripture to fit Calvary Chapel Moses model and tradition to avoid this is heretical and can only be justified by twisting scripture to enable any person in leadership to be held to an account, just as it to avoid following through with I Corinthians 5 and I Corinthians 6.

    Satan has entered into our congregation and we have very much come to a point where most of those who attend are no longer able to tell the goats from the sheep. We have accepted such teachings that no longer enables us to hold one another to an account. We are no longer safe in our churches and we can no longer trust once another, much less those who call themselves “annointed” of the Lord. But if Calvary Chapel repents and turn from our wicked and corrupt practices, then and only then will the Holy Spirit restore His church and a great revival like never before will break out among us that angels in heaven sing halleluia before the King os kings.

    Jesus said, “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman [or man] lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matt 5:28). Not only does adultery occur in the sexual act, it starts in the heart, for as a person thinks in their heart, so they are in reality (Prov 23:7).

    Pornography Is Adultery In The Heart
    Pornography not only is committing adultery in the heart (Matt 5:28), it changes the brain’s chemistry in an almost incontrovertible way. Shocking as it may seem, women are becoming more and more addicted to pornography and online is the place where this is happening. Stunningly, the latest statistics are that 41% of women have looked at pornography within the last month. The percentage of men is even worse. Looking at pornography actually becomes as addictive as heroine and it changes a person’s brain chemistry in similar ways. I believe to make a covenant with your eyes, as Job said (31:1), is to make a decision in advance to not even for a second look at anything that appears to be overly stimulating. Sadly, that’s going to be about impossible to do in our present society because even on TV, the Internet, billboards, and on the magazine rack, pornographic photos abound. The pictures might be legal but that doesn’t mean that they are moral.

    Child Sexual Abuse And Pedophilia
    Just like pornography, child sexual abuse and pedophilia is not just a problem for men anymore. Increasing numbers of women are becoming involved. Not only is it immoral, it is illegal and a criminal offense. The false thinking these days is that some are genetically predisposed to child sexual abuse &/or pedophilia. One prisoner told me that his counselor told him that he has a genetic defect and a specific gene that predisposes him to be a pedophilia. This is just as false as the supposed gay gene. Even if this were true, which scientifically it has never conclusively been proven, it is still wrong. That is like giving a criminal an excuse for their criminal behavior. What’s to say that some may be genetically predisposed to kill, rape, or torture? Where does this thinking lead? It leads to the person who committed the crime as being a victim of their own genes. This makes them feel that they are not responsible for their behavior and enables them to never change. It makes them give up trying since they believe that they are a victim of their own genetics…a helpless victim of their own biological makeup. We live in a fallen world and as we are all the children of Adam, we are all disposed to be sinners, but it does not give us permission to do so.

    Alcohol Or Drug Abuse

    Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/primary-causes-for-divorce-a-christian-study/#ixzz2EMy1BNrq

  76. Correction @ 75, end of 2nd paragraph:

    As Overly Concerned has brought to our attention, to tell anyone that they have virtually no choice but to sin or that we will daily, is not according to scripture—not tue, if one is sowing to the spirit. And the more one does this, the less he or she will sin. Paul speak clearly on this in Romans 8 —why is it we can not hear this? Simple, because we love the sin, more than we love God and because just maybe, we really have not surrender to the Cross. Instead we practice just what this man who was caught did– a duplicious identity. But God’s word tells us that we cannot be serving manna and the spirit at the same time. We cannot say that we are Christians while giving an excuse to do such things. We can, say woe are we and get on our face and go before the Lord and do what we must to eradicate these things out our our lives while making restitution to those whom we have harmed. Even if it cost us the pulpit which some may serve. For we are also told that if we seek to save our lives, we will lose our very souls, but if we will die to ourselves, no matter the cost He will redeem us and make us His children and the apple of His eye. But to remain double minded is the same as being luke warmed and we all know what Jesus had told us what He will do with those that persist in this state. What more, it is impossible love anyone whom you need to dominate. So to place yourselves above another is not love—it is as if you yourself are to be Lord, King, and the very Prince of darkness whom was so arrogant that he saw himself capable and entitled to be God instead. Jesus told us that we are all equal in His sight, therefore stop lording yourselves over another in such a matter that is oppression and does not permit one to have a voice, a thought, or even an opinion. Stop separating yourselves as being more annointed than any other who are in Christ Jesus and who have receive the Holy Spirit as much as any other. For all who are in Christ Jesus are said to be of the royal priesthood and we will all judge even the angels one day. This last admonishment is especially for those who calls themselves men in the Lord. Stop thinking you have a corner on authority for your authority is only given if you yourself is walking in submission and obedience in love towards He who created you for the sole purpose of doing His will and not your own.

    4th Paragraph — last sentence :To ignore Alex’s or anyone’s complaint, because it someone has told you that it is not your business to be involved is a lie from the pit. You, who are a representative of the leadership of Calvary Chapel, wherever you are, have a biblical mandate to step in on his behalf of a person who claims they have been abused, no matter when it happened. To not to do so, you participate and share the sin that has, or was, or is being committed. To align scripture to fit Calvary Chapel Moses model and tradition to avoid this is heretical. And to do this, that is avoid, to silence the victim, or to give the silence treatment to a victim, or make the victim out to be the offender instead,can only be justified and accomplished by twisting scripture to enable CC and its Pastors to hold one another to an account. It is what is termed in the world as “gang mentality” and is an abomination to the Lord, as it is in direct disobedience to Pauls’ instruction to the church in: I Corinthians 5 and I Corinthians 6. as well as, other Scripture verses, from Genesis all the way to Revelation. Instead of relying on Chuck Smith’s teachings and tapes and others who only regurgitate what he has taught, get yourselves in the word and beyond the person who created the unbiblical Mose’s model and corporate structure.

    I realize I have been most long winded and there are many typos in what I have written. For those who tend to want to pick at a gnat, they will not listen even if there was none. But for those that are hungry and want to see Calvary Chapel body of Christ to be all that God wants them to be then I believe that what I’ve shared will be of benefit.

    I am most frustrated and terribly dissappointed in those stand before the congregation and say that they love the Lord, yet do not hear and do what is necessary to get rid of the leaven and to validate and vindicate those whom have been abused. The issues that Alex Grenier has concerning his stepfather, Bob Grenier has been put off far too long. It is time to do what you would want to be done had you yourselves been in Alex’s place, as a Pastor’s stepson and one who has tried ever so hard in being heard and supported by the very church that he and his brothers were raised in. Calvary Chapel.

    It is time that Calvary Chapel repent, reforms, and do what is necessary to restore the trust that was violated by those that were protected instead of being held to an account.

  77. “Pastors to NOT hold one another to an account.” comment 76 2 paragraph, 4th sentence. “

  78. Grace @ 50: your comments are lies and you know it. You mayhave attended our church but this man NEVER worked at our school (which is free by the way) and never has had any rold on staff of any kind. He was nothing more than an occasional volunteer. Re: other posts about who we call leaders: in our church, only those with pastor or elders titles are considered leadership. No servants at the church who are not employed full-time get any sort of pay at all. Stipends or otherwise…

  79. Pastor Ron,

    Good Morning. To the point—so because this man attended your church for 10 years and had not given you any cause to be concerned, you were comfortable in him volunteering to teach this grade level, right?

  80. Pastor Ron Arbaugh wrote @33 ” What he did was despicable and he would never be allowed to return to any form of ministry in this church. Additionally, I would proactively warn any church if he attempted to get involved in another ministry in the unlikely event of an early release. There is no excuse for his behavior; his sin grieves the Lord’s heart. Thankfully, there were no children involved, no victims locally or in our church.”

    Mr. Arbaugh, so no victims in your church at all but you continue in fellowship with Mr. Grenier’s church where there appears to be tons of victims but you say nothing? Such a strong statement about somebody who was involved in pornography but no molestation charges but your own pastor you are in fellowship now has an accusation of molestation? This actually seems worse. I am scratching my head. Do you see the problem here? Chuck Smith admitted there was abuse in Alex’s case but it was just so long ago that it wasn’t important. This guy served in your church for 10 years. I suppose if he molested somebody 10 years ago that doesn’t count? This is the exact message I got from Chuck Smith when he discounted Alex. Listen to the interview if you haven’t. My advice is that you better be prepared for victims to come forward from your own church and you might want to be proactive about the pastors in your own organization.

  81. Whether or not it could have been discerned, I don’t know. But now that you do know, Clarifier & Ron, and now that you know the damage, would you join us in our call for real investigation of the serious charges against CC pastor Bob Grenier made by his blood son, step-sons, and many former church workers, church employees, and church attenders?

  82. I woke up this morning with great peace. It is important that I share that. God is God folks. The blood of Jesus is powerful and the only reason for Christianity is still Jesus Christ. It was not something man came up with so we can all gather together a few times a week and stage an “us” against “them” campaign against the world. Jesus Christ died and rose again and there is power in what He did. That power can change lives. It has truly changed some of ours. The reason why anyone could say that what happened with Jacob Holguin could happen anywhere in any “church” is simple: The “church” is not often the “Church”. The blood-bought Church of Jesus has the Holy Spirit at work in each heart bringing change to each life. Yes there will be occasional times when we sin. but read the newspaper article. This isn’t someone who stumbled on to a dirty picture and looked too long…This was a lifestyle that was twisted and sadistic and perhaps even psychotic.

    Again I will say that upon leaving the CC I attended, I took the time personally to do what Paul told the Corinthians to do and I examined myself to see if I was truly in the faith or not (from 2 Corinthians 13:5). We only have this present life to make that determination. If someone examines himself/herself and finds that Jesus Christ does not truly live in them there is a Solution: Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ is still the way to eternal life and we don’t have to stay bound in the dilemma of Romans 7, we get to move into Romans 8! (uriahisaliveandwell I thought of something you said as I said that :-) )

    Christians are not supposed to be stumbling around this dark world as victims to any besetting sin that wants to rear its ugly head. Sin should cause us to grieve and want to turn to our Savior because He has full provision for our forgiveness and for us to live a victorious Romans 8 reality! That’s part of the Gospel message. Unfortunately something is truly lacking in America. There is nothing wrong with the biblical Gospel message. There is nothing wrong with Jesus. The problem is that what we call ‘church” is not what His Word calls “Church”. If anyone does not have the Holy Spirit , he does not belong to Christ and then there is no other option but to walk by the flesh and continually fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Carnal mindedness is death, spiritual mindedness is life and peace.

    If I repeat anything this morning know that it is for myself as well because last night some of the CC malarkey from the past tried to creep into my understanding but the Word of God, sharper than any two-edged sword cut through and separated out what is not from God. It is unacceptable that a nationwide organization that presents itself as belonging to Jesus should have heinous things happening as frequently as CC has. Who is it unacceptable to? Definitely to God. It screams that there is a form of godliness but no power in what they are presenting and we are told to turn away from such people! If we do not turn away what happens is that we start thinking that the things that they have to say about Christ and Christian living are true. We start believing that men like Jacob Holguin, Dino Cardelli, John Flores, Anthony Iglesias and the countless other names are in fact true representatives of what a Christian life entails and that what happened with them can and will “happen anywhere” in the Church. Please read what John had so say to the “churches” in Revelation 2 and 3. Some things were not acceptable and God didn’t say that even though they were not living according to His grace and walking according to His truth He was okay with those unacceptable things. Instead, He told them to repent and He told them the consequences if they did not!

    Take the challenge folks. Each person examine yourself and see if Christ really lives in you. I did it because God is still God. He still gets the final say and He still wants a relationship with each of us and an acceptance of the blood of Jesus as the propitiation for our sins, that is life changing, that is refelcted on the outside, so the world will know that He is truly alive in us! For those who do not take the challenge: Matthew 7 is still part of the Bible! A day will come when many will come before God telling Him all they did in His name and He will say “Depart….you who practice lawlessness…I never knew you!” God wants a relationship with each of us! He does not want anyone to perish but all to have eternal life. However He still knows who those people are who will continue to deny their need for Him and the life-changing reality of the Cross and resurrection and instead cling to man-made traditions and the worship of self-righteousness and the worship of wicked leaders. He knows. None of us can fool God!

    I thought of an illustration this morning: What if a law enforcement agent assigned to uncover a child pornography ring turned out to be one of the perpetrators in the ring? What do you think the law enforcement agency would say? They would undoubtedly realize that there was something wrong with their system if they were unable to detect that! The public would look on and doubt their power and quite frankly would have reason to be cautious with them! If they made an announcement that sadistic child pornography was something that all of their agents are prone to and that it could “happen to anyone” the public would have reason to be more than cautious…The public would have reason to be downright scared and ask “Who are these men we have entrusted our safety to?”

    Illustration over….Now think of this: The article says that Jacob Holguin was engaging in some pretty heinous behavior online…it doesn’t mention an atheist on the other side of town or someone in Holguin’s neighborhood. It mentioned Jacob Holguin and the things he did and said.. He did those things, not someone on the other side of town. Then we find out who Jacob Holguin is and in addition to his secular job the article tells the public that he “led children in Bible study sessions” and it tells people where. Again the article does not talk about an atheist across town! I say all this to say: The world is watching people who claim the name of Jesus make claims that they are all prone to being “victimized” by pornography and unlike us who have the Bible to tell us that that should not be the truth, this is what they are seeing and hearing and being led to blaspheme the name of God because of. CC nationwide…..that is problem…a problem that CC nationwide is right smack dab in the middle of! Again: None of us can fool God!

  83. I read on this site but I haven’t posted here in a long time because I don’t feel safe here, but I want to thank Pastor Ron for coming to this place and laying out his side of the story. Also the fact that he gave his phone number and anyone who wanted further clarification could ring him. I think that is very commendable.
    I can truly believe that you and your staff had absolutely no idea what kind of person this was and I will take your word that he was vetted and came back fine. I really appreciate your pastor’s heart in coming here and trying to reason with people.
    I hope no child in your church was hurt by this man and I pray for the children whose photos he was spreading. Just such a tragic situation.

    I also continue to pray for the Visalia situation. May the truth come out and healing be found.

  84. Pastor Ron,

    You know, 10 years is a long time to get to know someone. Other than seeing in church, how else were you familiar with him? I mean, did you ever have coffee or share a meal face to face with him? What about his children. Had you ever had a conversation with them,othe than hello, how are you or to pat them on the back? In the article and the comment you made, I don’t recall that he had a wife. I’m not asking you personal things, but did you ever ask him why or are you not aware of his martial status? In the 10 years that he attended, did he ever participate in any other ministries or activities, such father/son activites, men’s retreat, men’s bible studies. Have you ever visited his home? Just how do you make yourself available enough to get to know those who might work with children or to work their way into ministry leadership roles? What criterias do use in evaluating a person’s character. Is it through recommendations or certain length of time observing and watching how they treat their children and spouse?

  85. Tracy D,

    I have two questions to all of you here. Does God say gossip is a sin? What is gossip?

    Here is the definition from Wikipedia “Gossip is idle talk or rumor about the personal or private affairs of others. It is one of the oldest and most common means of sharing facts, views and slander. This term is used pejoratively by its reputation for the introduction of errors and variations into the information transmitted, and it also describes idle chat, a rumor of personal, or trivial nature.”

    Here is the definition from the dictionary.
    “Noun
    Casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true.”

  86. The news article states:

    “that he had fondled a 15-year-old girl and took cell phone pictures of her private areas.

    Understanding pedophilia and the different levels of sexual addiction, I think everyone needs to understanding a few things.

    1. This man is a misogynist.
    2. This man has carried his pornographic fantasies into the real world and violated at least one person is is a minor.
    3. Either he is fixated on girls that are as close to 15 years old or she was just in the wrong place at the right time, or accessible for him to molest, or he is fixated on younger females.
    4. He is violent and it would be a matter of time before he would kill a child.
    5. He would also, if he has not already molest a child or children in Calvary Chapel once he is able to groom such. He does this by befriending, usually a single parent mother, or father, whom will give him an opportunity to be alone with the child.
    6. His sons are prone to also develop the same attitude towards females and have most likely been exposed to some form of pornography, be it watching HMO, magazines, pictures, videos, website, or radio programs.
    7. His children have learned to play the role of a healthy family publicly.
    8. There is most likely history of spousal abuse and use of alcohol or other substance.
    9. He may be charismatic and liked by children. He may also be childlike himself.
    10. He will be either very rule oriented and rigid or very boundaryless in his parenting style. Most likely it will be the former in order to control his environment to avoid being exposed.

  87. Tracy D.

    So what is the point you are trying to make. Because, I’m thinking you are asking it due to lack of knowledge or perhaps you just don’t like hearing the truth.

    I don’t know—what would be doing if you had been beaten, molested, abused, exploited, battered, cheated, robbed, and other types of abuse and corruption committed against you by people you trust and cared about in your church, particularly if it was done by a Pastor or another in church leadership? What would do if you knew that it was still going on with others? Hmmm, perhaps a few hours on this site will help you to figure this out.

    Oh, you might also read Ephesians 5:11.

  88. Have one in moderation. Too long or too much? Let me know. :-)

  89. Tracy,

    Many use the false accusation of “gossip” to try and get others to stop talking about the truth. It is a fact that a man in Ron Arbaugh’s church has been caught involved in sexual sins that the FBI does not even approve of. Ron now has to think through if he could have done anything to have seen the warning signs, or not. He also has to think about how he is going to handle this going forward in order to protect people, even if the accused beats the rap somehow.

    Ron also has to decide if he thinks its right for him to continue his defense of CCPastor Bob Grenier, as Bob has serious sexual, physical, and spiritual abuse allegations against him that have not been given a real investigation and/or follow through.

    If you think this blog is gossip, then you may want to read more carefully the first hand accounts of each of us endured … Certainly not gossip when one is stating the truth of unrepentant leaders in sin . The Bible tells us to call them out publicly 1Tim.5

    When so many of us have run into the same problems throughout CC, and we point out the consistency of the culture, it’s not gossip. We are exposing the truth and warning others as God tells us to do in Scripture.

  90. Uriahisaliveandwell,

    Perhaps you don’t want to hear the truth? Are you listening to yourself? You can”t know the whole truth unless you are God. I know much more then most about this. I also know God will take care of it, I don’t need to gossip about it. God has already started his justice, and He don’t need anyone to interfere.

  91. Uriahisaliveandwell. I am a friend of the guys son and he is actually different then how you say…me and his soon go to church together and grew up together went to the same schools and everything so do not base you argument saying his kid is prone to the same thing which is not true because he isn’t even here he is in the marines so do not say anything about someone you don’t know

  92. Tracy,

    You have completely missed the point of why Alex posted this. Please reread the blog post to grasp the much larger picture than what is simply going on at your church.

  93. Maybe I should help you out here …

    Your pastor, Ron, defended CC Pastor Bob Grenier when his blood son accused him of sexual and physical abuse, his step-sons accused him of physical abuse, along with church workers, employees, staff members and church attenders accused Bob of spiritual abuse along with financial improprieties and prescription drug abuse.

    Now that Ron has a serious allegation of sexual abuse under his own roof, it’s appropriate for Alex to ask Ron questions about how he’s going to handle it, especially since Ron is in a position of trust and the gate-keeper. It’s also appropriate for him/us to ask Ron if he will now reconsider his defense of accused Bob Grenier?

  94. Btw, of you think this should be handled by the CC Fellowship, well Chuck Smith declared he doesn’t do that (though we know he has when it suited his interests to do so.). Chuck Ith saw theounds of evidence from many, said he believed the allegations are true, but chose to do NOTHING.

    If you child was affected by a Pastor’s sins, would just sit home and pray God takes care if it? We know from Scripture that we’d be in sin if we did not speak up for the abused. Remember, God uses people. Remember the story of the Good Samaritan? To walk by and do nothing is wrong.

  95. 1st I want to point out how he says ” this man” was a contributing member NOT that he was a brother in Christ?? As a contributing member does that mean financially or bench warming?? I see how easy it is to start off by clearing themselves by not making him part if the inner circle right away…hmm?? But so many of your Pastors & ” other contributing” membera fellowship with this “man” for YEARS & why are they not being ??’d about their participation in all this??? Just like CC to shun the “evil” (well, atleast the one exposed) bc they have members their that are EVIL in many ways than one starting with the UNTOUCHABLE families (contributing members) that have been sitting ducks for years…Ron, has turned an ear & eye on too many times & this RON is just the beginning of what awaits your Academy & Church if you DON’T start cleaning house & you know who they are. I agree with Kathy there are too many lies in all this starting with the one that he was NOT a leader but how easily we were to throw him to the wolves & erase every trail this “man” has been a contribution..how about we ask the kids who he was?? Pastor Holguin, perhaps?? Or Teacher Holguin?? Let’s ask for church & school event photos too and maybe this “contributing” member will be posing as a “man” only?? Come on!! Wake up Ron & own up to what you & many others that dealt with him on a daily or weekly basis should have reached out or caught it after 10 years. I only hope for your sake some of these kids don’t come back years later & admit that there was sexual abuse but they were to afraid to expose themselves, their parents or you for the fear of being “shunned out” by CC because yal are well know to do that. Own up & clean uo this mess you have created by not being the Pastor to your sheep or “wolves” in some cases..

  96. Hello everyone,

    I just have a few comments. Is it possible to let Ron Arbaugh answer the questions that pertain to this situation without jump down his throat about the other situation? I know we want justice (that will ultimately come – “vengeance is mine says the Lord”), but we also must respect one another as brothers in this forum. Ron and his congregation just got hit with a pretty substantial issue, and all this, I am sure, will take time to process. It’s been less than a week, and I bet everyone is asking the very good questions that you are asking, but they may not know how to answer them yet. I commend this pastor, who is obviously a rival to the majority of you all, for taking valued time from his congregation (who is hurting) to talk with you. Now don’t get me wrong, CC has much to account for over all and they will; however, we should all afford Ron the ability to talk with everyone and express his views and answer your questions.

    A couple of other thoughts: Have any of you prayed for this man, this church, his children, and his possible victims? This event is horrible and should never have happened, but the courts will take care of that now, which is a great grace to all of us. This is a HUGE black eye to CCSA, but more than that, it is a HUGE black eye to our Lord and HIS church (you and me). So let’s not bite off Ron’s head, but rather, let’s hear him out and let him answer the questions pertaining to this particular situation. Realize you may never get the answer you want from Ron concerning your other situation, but if the accusations indeed are true, does it really matter if Ron came to your side? If the truth comes out and Ron is wrong, i am sure he is a godly enough man to come on this site and repent and apologize. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt for right now. Let’s give him and his church time to heal, then talk with him about the other situation.

    In Christian Love,

    notsoprivatemusings

  97. notsoprivatemusings, thank you. I appreciate your heart. I will answer any questions about the issue before CCSA. I have nothing to say about any other issue. This is plenty to deal with and, as you noted, there are people who really loved this offender who are hurting.

  98. sarahi @92; all I meant about contributing was that he served here as a volunteer and was valuable to us. The entire body of believers here contribute something. It is pretty jaded to immediately think that I was talking about money or trying to distance myself from him. As i said earlier, we loved Robert and will be available to help him if he gets out of prison and we are here for his kids, all of whom have grown up here.

    I don’t know what was done to you here but if I have personally offended you, come and talk to me and give me the opportunity to make it right. It is obvious that you are hurting and I would love to give you the opportunity to demonstrate that you have misjudged me and especially the body here.

  99. Ron, in dealing with the aftercare of this event, what have been your priorities and how will you proceed? I guess I could ask it like this: When were you notified? How were you notified? What actions did you take with his family, etc.? I feel very sorry for this man and his children, and I do not think he started at this point; so, how are you planning on providing pastoral care through this event? Justice will be served, we know that; so, do you have any plan in place to help him personally? His children? And how will you guide the church in the aftermath of this? I know it’s a lot that I am asking, so don’t feel that you have to answer everything, but I am curious… Thanks for your time.

    In Christian Love,
    Notsoprivatemusings

  100. uriah @83; please stay to the facts. The article does not say he handled a 15-year old girl. It says that it is possible he had contact and fondled and took pictures of a 13 year who is now 15. The FBI has determined (as of this moment) that there probably was no physical contact and he is not being charged with that. What he did is horrible enough and he will pay the price. The article DOES say that there is no evidence any children here at CCSA were hurt in any way. Funny that that fact doesn’t come up ion your posts.

    I have a question for you and the others: how does a pastor (or a fellow believer or just a friend) know what a man or woman is doing in the privascy of their own home? I can promise you that Robert’s behavior shocked many and is completley and utterly devastating to even his own grown children. I wish, like you, that predators were that easy to identify. Truth is, they are not. Wheat and tares exist together in the body of Christ and it isn’t always easy to know who is who. I can confidently say there were no warning signs to those of us who knew him casually and even his male roommate had no idea what he was doing privately.

  101. Re: Notsoprivatemusings

    I was respectful in how I spoke with Ron. I even offered empathy for having to go through this.

    But here’s the point: Ron is in charge of how this situation is handled at your church. Ron is the same man who defended an accused abuser, when Alex was calling for someone in CC to look into the charges. Ron did not take the stance that the many allegations (by many people) should be investigated. If he took that stand with Bob Grenier, then how can he be trusted to handle this situation under his own roof well? It’s not a matter of trying to get Ron on our side, it’s that Ron is having a double standard if he continues to defend Bob Grenier. The two allegations of abuse are inextricably intertwined! One cannot be handled differently than the other without it pointing out some serious sin in Ron.

    One more point: if you want to tell those on this blog who’ve lived through abuse in our own CC’s to speak kindly to Ron, then also speak to those from your camp to do the same when they post. The false accusation of gossip and implying we should walk past abuse victims s along the road of life and simply remain silent waiting for God to take care of it all on his own is wrong and needs correcting.

  102. notsoprivatemusing-

    Is it possible the Ron took time to express his views to do damage control.

    Is it possible that he has taken an unbilblical position in/over the church.

    If it’s ‘his congregation” then is it his church too.

    Ron said “. No servants at the church who are not employed full-time get any sort of pay at all”

    Great gig if you can get it.

    Maybe he can start a coffee shop, book store and other “ministries” and get people to work there for “no pay at all” or maybe they can pay for the privilege.

    Maybe he can get armed security around him for “no pay at all” or pay for the privilege.

    Many CC have.

  103. Ron, I happen to think it can be hard to discern sin issues at times. Some are very good at their cover-up, maybe because they are distanced from their conscience? I don’t know. Those who know Bob Grenier well say he fits this category too.

  104. Uriah @84; ourr church is a fairly large church. I only say that to make it clear that I cannot know everyone on a personal basis. I know Robert and his children because they have been around so long and I have watched his kids grow. I have never been to his home and my face-to-face experiences with Robert would have always been in church related activities such as those you mentioned, retreats, public church events, etc. I had the honor of praying for and sending his oldest son offf to the US Marines just a little over a month ago (he graduates today and returns home to this mess. As of today, he has not yet been told). I know his brothers and have known from the beginning that he was a single parent with ful custody of his children.

    As to how we evaluate a person’s character, thats an important question to ask. We, of course, run background checks on everyone who asks to serve with children. We have every one fill out a ministry application form even if they do not intend to work with children. We also don’t let people serve in children’s ministry (or jr, or high school) until/unless we know them and have developed a personal relationship with them. Additionally, I know I am repeating this, we NEVER allow any adult to be alone with kids and always have 2-5 volunteers depending on size of the ministry. No one is permitted any position of responsibility until relationship has been developed. Robert Holguin seemingly served faithfully for a very long time with no issues and it demonstrates that any of us can be fooled.

  105. Ron,

    In light of this -that anyone can be fooled- please reconsider your defense of Bob Grenier and call for a real investigation into the mound of evidence and many accusing him of various abuses …. Including sexual abuse.

  106. @Grateful

    Dear brother, I see your point, but I am suggesting that you let Ron answer your questions without reference to the other situation. I am not saying that his actions were right in the other situation, but what I am saying is that it seems that you are all calling him to account for that, when he is focused on this event at the moment. As you know abuse is horrible, so please I hope you do not feel that I minimized, because I would not do that; but leave the other situation out of here at the moment.

    BTW – I know the abuses of CC and I am not in a CC; however, they are not the only group of churches that are having a hard time with abuse issues. Have you all talked with abuse victims from other denominations?

    In Christian Love,

    notsoprivatemusings

  107. @ Ron..there’s nothing you can do or say to me that will help heal anything that Jesus has not yet done & continue to do..as for the jaded comment, I think its pretty jaded that you feel I or anyone here have misjudged you or your church without probable cause. I, Ron have not misjudged & I, Ron do not need the “opportunity” on the contrary start counseling your members within before you try to open your doors to us out here & maybe you won’t have such a “surprised” look on your face when allegations of your members misconduct appears across newspapers, news cast or internet Blogger. I would like to believe you mean well but I know better but thanks so much for the “opportunity”

  108. I asked this: “Have you all talked with abuse victims from other denominations?”

    Because from an outsiders point of view, you all seem angry and ranting, which I am sure is a true misconception. However, have you entrusted yourself and your families to other leaders in the Lord’s church? Or have you been totally turned off to the whole church through the wrong doing of a small group? Ultimately what I am asking is: how are you getting help for the issues of abuse that you encountered? I’ve encountered some abusive behaviors by pastors, but, by God’s grace, I was able to find a great church with a plurality of elders who care for the flock and it helped me deal with my anger toward those who I felt wrong by. Your anger is warranted, but realize that your anger can lead to as much sinfulness as Robert’s lust in his heart did. This is just my opinion, but the gospel is SO helpful in counseling ourselves, and I think it helped me not carry the anger anymore that I did. Also, remember our God is more righteously angry at these abusers and will one day take the vengeance on them. He is storing up wrath for the day of wrath. Also, Jesus died and rose, and sits on the right hand of God, so that you don’t have to be angry anymore!

    In Christian Love,

    notsoprivatemusings

  109. Re: Notsoprivatemusings

    We know there are abuses elsewhere; our point is that the way church government is set up in CC’s leaves the leadership without real accountability (see the rest of this blog to read that hashed out in great detail.). As a result, CC pastors can avoid being held accountable even when there are family members, church employees, attenders, etc… making accusations. Alex could not even get a hearing, while other CC leaders who were not there protected the accused Pastor, Bob Grenier.

    The argument that abuses exist elsewhere so we don’t need to fix the problem in our own churches doesn’t hold water.

  110. @Grateful

    Do you attend a CC now?

  111. Marshall,

    In my attempts to outline the dangers a person who preys on children the manner the newwpaper article decribed, I listed a number of things that we know as clinicians and law enforcement about them.

    “6. His sons are prone to also develop the same attitude towards females and have most likely been exposed to some form of pornography, be it watching HMO, magazines, pictures, videos, website, or radio programs.

    I was not making definite statemnts regarding his sons. But the statement does stand because it is true. You can search this out for yourself. Also, even though a child parent may be terribly dysfunctional, it does not necessarily mean the child will also take on or do the same things.

    At the same, we need to understand this didn’t suddenly happen, nor did it occur in a vacuum. The warning signs were there but the criteria for determining who is or is not one to be trust was not base on that which person ought be aware in order to know if this person is genuinely trustworthy. People like this lead a duplicious lifestyle and unless you know what to look for, they can easily stay under the radar while exploiting you and everyone and look as normal anyone. In particular, you will find them around children and in position of trusts. Churches in particular have become a breeding ground particularly if the leadership is ignorant on domestic violence, child abuse, and sexual addiction. It is said that wll sexual addicts are Narcissist, but not all Narcissist are sexual addicts.. This man base on the charges would be consider a pedophile/sexual addict/narcissist.

    Being so, his children will have been affected, but it does not mean that they are destine to follow his steps, particularly if they good healthy example to follow and friends to support them in coming to terms with their father’s issues. But under no circumstances should this man ever be placed in a position of trust involving children, particularly with females who age ranges in the middle school age group.

    With a genuine heart, my goes out to each of you, as well as the man who made the choices that he did. At same time I would encourage everyone to understand it is not our desire to pass judgment on any but to warn and to ask that you also consider what we each have shared but with a far less attitude of defensiveness that you have displayed.

    It also stand to reason that since Pastor Ron is on our site that he stop skirting the issue with Bob Grenier and stand up for Alex as well. My final question to everyone who have visted our site and to CC Pastors is this: If you had been abused in the manner that Alex and others have claimed to be and decided walk away from seeking the things that we are, but then found out later that others were being abused in similar ways, what sense of responsibility would feel towards not have warned anyone and holding those accountable for the wrongs done?

    Because this is what many does happen among those who have been victims of child abuse, sexual molestation, rape, and domestic violence. And what this does is say to those perpetrating these wrongs that they are free to continue preying on others.

    Like so, if CC leadership continues to avoid these things, they only draw in the predators and enable them to become part of the leadership as well as to marry those in the body who are in Christ, Jesus, then have children and voila’ abuse them as well. And the entire system becomes weak, anemic, and sorely lacking the ability to discern between the wolves and the true body of Christ—his precious lambs, who are the real victims are forced to defend themselves from being slaughtered one by one without a blink of an eye of concern from those who are called to protect and to defend.

  112. Paul warned the Ephesian elders of the wolves that would rise up from among them to hurt the sheep. Paul said that the elders were to protect the sheep from these wolves. The abuses are not a surprise to me, it’s just a responsibility God gave for us to protect the sheep and give the oppressed a voice and justice.

    I’m in a healthy church for me.
    I’m grateful for what I’ve learned after what I went through on the inside of CC, as well as what I’ve learned through what many others experienced, as well.
    I’m involved in full time ministry, currently. (That really means nothing, but to some they won’t hear me unless I state that.)

    But this is not about me. Some of us are very aware when things like this are brought up that it serves as a topic shifter. The focus gets shifted off of the hypocrisy of Ron protecting Bob Grenier while he claims he will do all he can to protect his attenders from the sexual abuser within his midst.

  113. Just so you know, there are some regular posters on this sight that have been quiet for awhile because they’ve made the points so many times that they are not easily drawn into yet another conversation where we have to go over the same arguments and facts again with the same re herrings thrown in to get us off track.

    There are some posting here for the first time. This is a public blog and people show up from lots of places. The closer the are to when they were abused, the more raw it may feel for them. Rebuking abused people for being angry is not a good thing to do.

    Just some context that may help.

  114. Normally, I’d try to be much more careful in how I present my thoughts, but I have to type this into my phone and its laborious and time consuming.

  115. @ Uriahisaliveandwell – Thank you for your response, I think it showed your heart in a very clear way. Very helpful as a person new to this site!

    @Grateful – I am glad you are in a healthy church environment. I agree with you; but, I think the issue we have is the way the terms of CC affiliated churches. So you are right, there are deep structural issues. They do not operate in the same manner as the Presbyterian, Methodist, and other various denominations do; so, it is hard to really know how they should call their pastors into account. This means that they probably do need to look into changing the structure to suit the present reality.

    With all those agreements and commendations, I have to say that at this point, I think it is prudent to afford Ron the time to answer the questions that we are asking without bringing in the other situation. I understand that it is a issue of consistency, but I do not think you’ll convince Ron of that at this moment.

    In Christian Love,
    nspm

  116. @Grateful – I am wasn’t rebuking for anger, but encouraging people to deal with their anger in a more biblical manner. The one thing I always tell myself is, “No matter how someone has treated me, it does not give me an excuse to sin.” I’ve been spiritually abused, in a CC as a matter of fact; however, my responses to that abuse were VERY sinful. Therefore, I had to deal with my sinful attitudes, words, and deeds; so, if I can prevent others from sinning the same way I did, then I think that is a godly thing to do. If I was rebuking, you would know it. :-)

  117. Convincing Ron that the two are linked and that without realizing that then his credibility is in question in how he deals with his own church is not actually the driving factor here. Showing the MANY who read here how a CC pastor handles this is.

    If Ron were to have stonewalled Alex’s valid questions, then he’d be added to the long list of those who’ve done the same. To the degree he deals with this in a straight forward manner, it will then be duly noted that finally a CC pastor stood up for what’s right!

    If Ron doesn’t change his stance on Bob Grenier, then all will see his hypocrisy and be warned publicly.

    It all goes into the files of how CC pastors consistently deal with issues. We will rejoice when one actually shows is differently. Many of us may not be hopeful after all we’ve seen on the inside, but we are still rooting for any CC pastor to show us differently.

  118. Ron Arbaugh,
    You mentioned that you do background checks on all those that work with the Youth. As the senior pastor I would think anybody who works in this church ultimately would report to you in a Moses Model church. So with this in mind, try not to laugh because this is important. I know this may sound insulting to you at first but I think it would be informative to others, but curious, did you yourself have a background check before you started this church? When was the last back ground check done our yourself completed? And who would be the record holder for that background check and who did the background check? Feel free to call me divisive for even asking but I think if you think about the question, it does seem relevant to the immediate situation at hand. After all, I am sure the FBI agents that arrested this fellow probably all had back ground checks to work in the department.

  119. This may sound trite but has any one truly considered that the reason why CC is the way it is, is because CC is the way it is? For instance: We don’t go to an apple tree looking for oranges.

    Matthew 7:17-19 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    In the case of occasional sin in the life of a believer and sin that causes grief and repentance before it ever makes it to the pages of a newspaper, we know we have an Advocate. God’s grace and forgiveness are at work abundantly for that type of sin. But when something is a pattern then there are other parts of scripture that cover willful, continual, unrepentant sin….the type that gets repeated again and again and the fruit of which is nasty! On another thread Hebrews 10 came up. The blood of the covenant is not a a common thing! It still is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God! As far as the Church speaking what God’s heart is about something, Paul told Timothy: 2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

    The Word contains information on how God feels about everything! But we need the Holy Spirit in order to apply and to relay the Word. Words on a page are not what bring life. The Holy Spirit and the Word bring life! 2 Corinthians 3:5-6 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    On this thread I fully reject any statement that says that what happened with any of the pedophiles discovered at CC nationwide could happen to any Christian at any time because those statements deny the power of the Cross and are not supported by the Word of God. We are not talking about cases of occasional sin we are talking about lifestyles. We are not talking about people who were brought to repentance by the Holy Spirit, we are talking over and over again about people who were caught by the legal system! To say that a Christian is someone who cannot stop sinning and who is doomed to potentially end up a slave to pedophilia is a lie from the kingdom of darkness and denies the Lord Jesus who bought us and washed us with His own precious blood! If there was a book titled “Destructive Heresies” such an assertion would be the first chapter of it!. 2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

    CC nationwide is the way it is because something is deeply wrong and it needs to change and all the other organizations nationwide that are like it also need to change! Let’s use the famous secular example: Jerry Sandusky got away with the things he did because of the type of man he was but also because there was something awry with the system he was a part of that allowed him to do so comfortably for years. That needed to change! No one dared to look at every coach and university in America and tell them that what happened with him was something people are just prone to and that it could just as easily happen anywhere! Of course now every coach and university has what happened with him as a huge cautionary tale, but I am positive that all of his victims would have preferred if they did not have to go through what they went through to bring awareness of the mechanism of child molestation to the whole nation! It should not have happened!

    With CC nationwide we are talking about an organization that calls itself Christian, yet over and over these things keep happening nationwide and there are still cases where these types of allegations and other allegations were made that have not been fully addressed. That is a problem. That is the problem! It is greater than any hurt! The reason why pedophilia or any type of offense against children that appears to be a pattern in different arms of an organization nationwide, needs to be addressed, is because it is wrong and because it needs to stop! That is true be it for CC nationwide or any other organization.

    According to the Word, God is willing and able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we confess our sins. It doesn’t say that He is willing to do so when instead of owning up to a nationwide problem, we point out how anyone could potentially have that problem!

    Today in a sense this thread yet again made the Bible come alive for me! The constant deflecting and dodging by CC supporters reminded me very much of the things the Pharisees had to say to Jesus! If it was not in terms of exact words it was definitely in the blame-shifting spirit behind those words!

    CC nationwide has had multiple situations where people involved in some capacity of leadership were found guilty of doing something that was deeply and heinously wrong! That needs to change and any outstanding allegations need to be addressed.

  120. Andrew, your question is not insulting at all. We do background checks periodically on all church leaders and staff in addition to those that work in children’s ministries. As fior me personally, I don’t remember how long it has been but I have been checked as well. I am due for another shortly after the first of the year. Our policy is every 3 years.

  121. Thanks Ron, I assume when you say “our policy” you mean specific to San Antonio and not your affiliate churches per say? Is this like written into your bylaws somewhere? I mean its not that I don’t trust you (even though you were a former car salesman, lol :) ) It’s just that a policy that is never formalized into writing is like a verbal contract when you are buying a a used car; it just doesn’t hold much weight. However, I do want to give you the benefit of the doubt as you in turn I hope can give Alex the benefit of the doubt.

  122. Pastor Ron,

    Concerning background checks, how far do they go back in the records and do you ask for background check for a person coming from other states.

    I say this because recently a prison guard working in Wyoming, I believe was arrested for molesting a girl. As it turned out, he also had an arrest warrant in California. This would indicate that the background did not check for out state warrants and arrrests.

    While working for a Christian ministry, there were many people who had been in prison for several years on drug and sexual offenses. They then were either release to half way houses or some type of treatment program. Then when getting a job say, 7 years or more after the fact, nothing shows on their records unless it is a felony. So, when a backgournd check is done, it may not indicate a true reflection on a person arrest or criminal record. Also, in the case of domestic violence, unless it is an assault, this also would show up on criminal background checks because it is usually handles in family court, just like cases involving abuse of children.

    So, it would be important for CC to get the training necessary like what Alex post regarding the Pastor letters to Pastors stated. Many people do not realize that the very same qualities or characteristics that the Anti Christ have are precisely those that this man exhibited to you and those who attend your church. I know you have formed a bond with him as such that you hold some level of affection towards him, but please remember, he does not do the same thing that normal people do for the same reason. He just knows how to make it appear as though he does. So whatever you say or think or feel, he is only mirroring you—not because he sincerely cares for anyone other than himself.

  123. Good for you having yourself checked, Ron!

    Forgive my jaded thought of wondering if anyone else has seen your report who has any power to do anything about it if something were to show up on it?

    Bob Grenier cannot be fired by his elders, board, attenders, or any type of Calvary Chapel oversight, including Chuck Smith (according to Smith.). This was true of all 3 of my CC pastors, as well as any of the Moses Model CCpastors.

  124. Pastor Ron

    “this also would NOT show up on criminal background

  125. Alex said:

    “How about you both step up and express some similar public outrage over how I and others have been treated by Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel?”

    That’s because Steve Wright is a company man thru and thru and he won’t dare express Godly Indignation at the atrocities commited under Calvary Chapel’s watch. It appears he’s more concerned with protecting the not so good name of the Dove.

  126. I find it interesting that this man was working at RAFB. How could their policies have allowed this to happen?

  127. Pastor Ron,

    Forgot to say that the prison guard who was arrested that the warrant in California was for 2 other girls who he had molested for a period of 10 years. When the one of the girls turned 18 she went to the police to file a complaint. Her sister was 16 or 17. Her mother was too afraid to report it and the girls were too afraid he would come back and hurt them.

    As it turned out, there were a couple more girls who came forward. So please whenever someone say that they have only been dabbling, there is no such would — they are only minimizing it to make look less harmful than it really is. By the way, many police department has units that provides education regarding these type of issues. You can request that one of their speakers comes out and speak to your church and they can ask all the question they want. It is a way to help your congregation to heal and to protect themselves.

  128. If Holguin was working at RFB with children, then I would hope that our Military has Policies and Procedures in place to background check and a venue to receive complaints/accusations etc about military personnel if they are accused of child abuse or molestation or child porn etc…if they’re in a capacity in a position of trust overseeing and working with kids.

    I imagine the military has Policies in place and probably puts people on suspension until the claims can be fully investigated internally and/or externally.

    Calvary Chapel does not have that in place as evidence by CC Pastor Bob Grenier being accused of Child Abuse and Molestation but still being fully endorsed by Chuck Smith and the Calvary Chapel Association without a full and formal investigation and ruling on the claims. Instead they investigated and published a 318 page report on Phil Aguilar and Set Free, but they claim “no responsibility” to do anything with their Pastor Bob Grenier.

  129. But if they were accused of child abuse or molestation or child porn, where would that information be found?

  130. Alex,

    Any person employed for the military or government goes through background checks including talking to neighbors, former employers, and credit checking. Depending upon the duties determines the level of security clearance one will have and the depth of such a background check.

    As for sanctions or putting parameters in place for any suspicious activities that incudes conversation or other type of communication they are extremely quick in putting things in place the necessary investigative tools to detect whatever level of threat to foreign or domestic interest immediately without necessarily having all the information yet. Could be this is how the FBI became involved in their investigation of this man. Word travels fast on post and within the ranks, even if he was a butcher in the commissary.

    On a military base or post, they don’t mess around. Nor does the FBI.

  131. ^^^This is what I’m getting at.

  132. And it doesn’t matter if its the butcher, the baker, the candle stick maker or the highest ranking officer there is, they do not studder—or play favorites when it comes to charges of domestic violence, adultery, child abuse or child molestations. Not for a second. No matter how many years they have served or if they served side by side with one another.

  133. If the United States government, with a lock down system in place and all the training known to man and to some on this board couldn’t sniff this guy out, how could the leadership of CCSA?

    If no children were harmed at their church, it seems to me their policies are to be commended, not bashed. Because of them, a pedophile had no oppurtunity to harm a child in all the years that he was there. Am I getting this wrong? Help me understand.

  134. And if Ron Arbaugh is to be admonished for allowing him to even step in the door, then when do start the conversation about the government for not having the foresight to see this coming?

  135. Andrew @122; I mean our policies here at CCSA. I have no authority to establish policies for any church except for mine and my church’s policies are established by the board here. CCA (I know you guys hate this but it’s true) has no authority in determing our by-laws or how we choose to operate. My board can fire me for 3 reasons: 1, personal moral failure; 2, mental incpacity; 3, physically unable to perform my duties. My board is local (elders) who have been involved in the ministry here for a long time and are not paid by the church.

  136. River, kind of a Red Herring there, though I don’t think it was intentional on your part, just misunderstanding of the Main Points.

    Arbaugh, without Holguin having priors or accusations/allegations surrounding him etc, could not have known. Arbaugh did background checks (he says and I have no reason to disbelieve him). Holguin cleared them.

    A couple of Main Points:

    NOW that Calvary Chapel knows that Holguin is a threat and danger to kids…even if he ‘repents’….he’s still a threat and shouldn’t be in a Youth Assistant or Youth Leader role with children at a church or otherwise….what is to keep Holguin from resurfacing at another CC when he gets out of jail?

    The Anthony Iglesias CC Molestations illustrate the Problem in CC.

    Iglesias was a known pedophile, but then got restored, then went to other CC’s and molested kids…and those CC’s claim they didn’t know he had a problem with pedophilia, all according to the recent lawsuit that the Idaho judge didn’t rule on the validity of those things, but rather let Mothership / CCCM off the hook for any liability in that case.

    Fact: Not all CC’s have Background Checks in place. Fact: the CC Association has an Affiliation Agreement/Contract with ALL CC Pastors and grant permission/rights for the Pastor to use the Name and Likeness owned by Chuck Smith, and represent the Brand.

    In this Contract, there are no Mandatory Provisions for Background Checks and/or other policies to help protect kids.

    Therefore, it’s a Crap Shoot as to which CC you attend. Do they have good policies in place? Not necessarily.

    Holguin could get out of jail and then resurface at a CC that doesn’t do Background Checks.

    A parent can move from San Antonio where Ron’s CC Franchise does to Background Checks…and move to a new area…attend the CC there thinking it’s like McDonald’s and all are Chuck Smith Approved and safe places…and Holguin could be helping in their kids Sunday School class.

    It happened in the case of Iglesias and kids got molested due to the parents trusting him as a “youth leader” according the parents.

    Another Major Point:

    If there was a Leader in the Military accused of Child Abuse and Molestation, even though there was no arrest…how would the Military handle it? Would they let the Leader continue on as is with no internal investigation? Would they support that Leader in suing the victims of abuse for speaking out and trying to get someone to investigate the charges etc?

  137. IMO, the right thing to do now is for Arbaugh to warn the others in Calvary Chapel about Holguin.

    There is a Calvary Chapel Association that links all the CC”s and all the CC Senior Pastors by Agreement/Contract.

    They have a website and you can find who is an official CC in your area.

    They should have a page that warns about known pedophiles who have breached their System so if these guys ever get out of jail or ever beat the rap or get accused etc. other CC’s can know and Parents can know.

    I’ve seen CC “investigate” and publish a 318 page report on Phil Aguilar and Set Free and send out press releases etc etc

    I’ve seen CC Pastors call around and black-ball/black-list former employees or non-member members who they deemed “divisive!” or not submissive.

    Certainly CC can do more to help Protect Kids

  138. Again, I apologize. What exactly did he do at CCSA is what I guess I’m getting at. It seems to me this is the story of a wolf entering a flock, and because of the leadership in place, for years he was kept from devouring them.

    So the main point is that CC doesn’t have a policy to keep Holguin from going to another CC and doing it over there? Could he not as easily go to another church (baptist, catholic, mormon) and do the same? I’m trying to understand, I want to understand.

  139. Some things about Ron Arbaugh that I think are correct based on the info I have:

    He has a decent sized church and he takes a very modest pay package. The numbers I was given were very low in comparison to smaller CC’s.

    If the numbers I saw were accurate, he’s not getting rich off of Jesus by any stretch, he’s making a lower middle class living. Steve Wright is in this same mold. I have to applaud that, it’s vastly different than a Bob Grenier or a really rich man like Raul Ries.

    While I don’t agree with everything Ron’s saying on here, i do agree that his transparency and willingness to take the heat over here and answer most of the questions is telling (in a good way).

    Sarahi has expressed some major hurt. Sarahi, I am sorry for that. If you want to share it with me privately, I’d be happy to confront Ron Arbaugh about it. I’m not a CC kiss-but and I know that pastors can fool folks. While I am not aware of any wrongdoing or scandal of Ron (all the info I have over the years is that he’s all-in-all a good guy who runs a clean operation in San Antone) he’s also a sinner like the rest of us and capable of error.

    You can email me at agrenier (at) gmail (dot) com.

    I’m happy to be a listening ear and believe me when I tell you I have been through the wringer and heard it all before and I don’t put pastors on pedestals…I knock them off of pedestals b/c that is Godly and righteous.

    Ron, as I shared with you privately, your the Leader, you’re supposed to be the Servant of All and you’re supposed to turn the other cheek, forgive 70 times 7 and you’re to be gracious to those who you are in Spiritual Leadership over. You may not agree with Sarahi, but that’s the job you said you were called for and qualified for and “anointed” for.

    My advice is take the high road and simply tell her you’re sorry and leave an open invitation to her if she decides to approach you. Then have a spirit of humility and be open that you did something wrong and try to fix it.

    Is that easy to do? Nope. Very very difficult. But, you Pastors are the ones who claim the special calling and special anointing. So show it.

  140. River, Ron Arbaugh’s CC has some decent protections in place…but a former CCCM insider with close knowledge of CC matters stated that the percentage of CC’s who do a solid job of vetting/background checking etc is low.

    That’s one problem. There is an Association and an Affiliation Agreement/Contract…a Mandatory set of Policies should be in place System-wide, just like the Mandatory nature of other things in the contract. There’s no excuse for this.

    Another Problem: CC doesn’t make the issue a priority and doesn’t alert others in the System if there is an allegation of molestation or abuse or child porn etc. In the case of Anthony Iglesias, there was knowledge of a problem, there was some sort of internal church discipline and then a restoration according to the lawsuit.

    This needs to be addressed System-wide. No restoring folks with child porn, or pedophilia or child abuse or molestation issues to be with children, no matter how repentant they may become.

    You don’t take a repentant Drunk and restore him to being a Barkeeper. That’s just bad decision making.

    The CC System currently has no Policy to remove Pastors, employs or youth workers etc from “ministry” for accusations/allegations of child molestation etc. and CC currently doesn’t have an internal process to handle those accusations and to investigate them

    ….Unless you’re Phil Aguilar with Set Free and honing in on some of their territory, then you get thoroughly investigated, you get a 318 page report and you get a media blitz to warn the public etc.

    Right now, Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia is still in a position of trust, still has access to kids through his church, still most of the people don’t know about the serious allegations surrounding him and can’t make an informed decision to attend or not etc and Calvary Chapel ignores the cries for help, ignores the cries for a formal investigation like they did with regards to Phil Aguilar and Set Free, etc etc etc.

    CC wants to make it purely a law enforcement issue, but as the Anthony Iglesias situation demonstrated, as the Bob Grenier situation demonstrates, there are not always arrests right away. Do we have to wait for another tragedy before dealing with the person?

    That seems to be CC’s approach: they seem to want to wait for more victims and for an arrest before they’ll do anything, otherwise, if you can somehow dodge jail, you’re good to go.

  141. Regarding a Holguin simply going to the Catholic Church:

    Well the RCC got their arses sued off and they now have some pretty solid protections in place System-wide, so a Holguin would probably not be able to work with children in the RCC.

  142. Ron, CCA is what it is but I am not sure anybody knows what it is. Maybe you can explain. If CCA has no authority in how you operate than exactly what does CCA do? Do you mean to tell me that you and your board could change your church into anything you want (i.e. Buddhist Temple, Islamic Mosque, etc,,) and still keep the same name and Dove symbol and be listed on the web site as an officially endorsed Calvary Chapel church? Is this what you are saying to us? It’s one thing to say CCA has no authority but its quite another thing to say they choose to not be involved. I find it hard to believe that they don’t have authority to protect their own brand. Its more plausible to me that they choose to not be involved. Not having authority to me is much different than pure negligence.

  143. Ron, what I don’t like is any pastor/leader who can operate without true accountability for whatever reason. There must be recourse for anyone abused by anyone with such power as one in a position of trust.

    I would not like it if you told a sexually abused girl not to report her step-father, the perp, and then got away with that because no one could prove that was a moral failure on your part. (As was the case with Bob Grenier, according to the girl’s -now woman-testimony.)

    I would not like it if your kids said you abused them, but you could get away without any real investigation, and if you could stay in your position when 3of your 4 children were accusing you. (See Bob Grenier story.)

    I would not like it if a pastor could commit financial improprieties, but could get away with it since the use of finances are at his discretion with no meaningful oversight. Since CC attenders are not official members they have no legal right to see or question how the money they give is used. When any pastor lives high off the “Widow’s Mite,” I see that as a moral failure, but how could a board prove that? My own CC pastor was found to have stolen $260,000 in one year from the church. But because of how CC pastors have no real oversight with the finances, they didn’t make him pay it back, OR check to see how much he stole the other years. I did not like that.

    I don’t like it when there are enough loopholes that meaningful accountability is elusive, in favor of protecting the pastor. So the issue isn’t narrowly that everyone on this blog wants the Calvary Chapel Association to provide that accountability, it’s that if CC’s are going to sell the CC brand, then there has to be some quality control. Real accountability simply needs to be put into place somehow.

  144. Alex, I understand now. Your issue is with cc as a whole, and this is just another example of its failed policies. God bless you and I pray you continue your fight for the truth. One last question. Someone said that Holguin attended CCSA for 10 years. Speaking solely of this one issue, if a pedophile served there for 10 years, and was never able to harm any children, is that an indictment of ccsa’s policies, or an endorsement?

    Were their procedures a success or a failure? Just that one question. No red herrings.

  145. Andrew @143

    It’s whatever it needs to be, that’s the genius of it. It is an affiliation when it needs to be and it’s independent when it needs to be, It has authority when it needs it and no authority when it needs it.

    And the church does the same thing, it’s a big church when it needs to be (corporation) and small church when it needs to be (family), the pastor decided when it needs that and the board decided when it needs that.

    When you turn the church into a corporation you will need a CEO and you will need to vet everyone who serves.

    You know what would be good, is to see a Chief Pastor get a job, work hard with his own hands, take care of his family with the money he earns, study the word, have discernment and still pastor (serve) the people of God and stop sitting on the mount of the congregation. Then we could learn by his example on how this is done. Not saying Elders who do their job well should not be paid but maybe it should be used less.

    Instead CC has a unbiblical hierarchy (Moses Model) run in many cases like a corporation without any means to get help when treated wrongly (well except you can leave by voting with your feet), who believes they are put their to build you up to serve them and grow this unbiblical model. Weird.

  146. Something I think should be taken into account when speaking to CC pastors (and those responding when shocked by the reception of their words), not unlike a newly married person who suddenly find themselves woefully unprepared for conflict, they often make it worse by:
    - Not recognizing (or refusing to recognize) their weakness.
    - Continually refusing to accept the OBVIOUS signs they’re only making worse.
    - Not showing the same dedication to learn and strengthen their areas of weakness as much as those THEY REALLY care about.

    CC Pastors (like Ron – PROBABLY – I don’t know him) usually begin counseling and assisting in conflict resolution (they’re not the same disciplines) with little or no REAL training.
    If you’ve attended a CC for any time, you must know most teaching (other than literal Bible reading) is mostly comprised of Protestant (CC) tradition, platitudes, straw-man arguments, etc. Not all of this is false or “bad,” but to understand their mindset (and to be fair to them, many don’t know any better), try pretending you’ve been thrust into situations that under any other circumstances you wouldn’t be allowed to continue with such horrible fruit, yet you’re not allowed to admit to anyone you really don’t have a freegin’ clue what you’re doing. Now pile on a healthy dose of pride fostered by years of stories where any contradictions or questioning was answered by ridicule. You’re taught by example when contradicted, ATTACK! Sadly, man pastors’ wives have received this treatment – this I know.
    You’re stuck in a prison of self-denial, circular logic and a little insanity.

    I don’t (and you shouldn’t expect) CC pastors to ever be really good at anything other than “simply teaching the Bible, simply” because for the most part, that’s all the real “training” they get that’s healthy (aside from the insecure, immature, pulpit tantrums they’re exposed – and on the radio).
    It would help them IMMENSELY if we all started getting help from those who’ve PROVEN they know what the heck they’re doing – like some evil denominations and some non-CC denoms who actually let those who know what the heck they’re doing, do it, instead of having someone who could never manage finances, manage millions of $, design buildings (but forget disabled restrooms, etc.).
    I know some will take this to be picking on CC, it’s not meant to be.
    But we’re obviously NEVER going to get anyone influential in CC to ever admit that “feeling called” should qualify you to run the universe.
    So, why do we keep drinking the kool-aid then?!

  147. I want to clarify, I’m not lumping Ron (or any CC pastor) into one group. That is to say, I don’t believe they all share the same faults, weaknesses, etc.
    I am trying to point out the rampant self-denial and petulant attitude many do share with respect to their failures.
    Humility, at least REAL humility is evidenced not just by self-effacing comments from the pulpit or a controlled environment. We all know how easy it is to SOUND humble.
    Real humility is proven for example, when you’re wife calls you on something and you immediately repent.
    For 20 years now (for me), I’ve seen in several states now this pattern among CC pastors of too much false humility.
    I really believe it’s been and will continue to be their downfall, especially when made so public – most of us who can actually get fired for not owning up to mistakes are sick of tolerating it and leave.
    It shouldn’t take screens and screens of posts for a truly humble person to just agree about evil, without being defensive, finger point, etc.
    My cat could recognize there’s a lot of pain here and what’s needed to heal it.

  148. Pastor Ron:

    I do apologize. I don’t know where Grace is, maybe she just didn’t understand what Holguin’s role was in the church, but Teacher Aide’s at the school (wow, your school is free? how do you pull that off?) are usually paid. So please accept my apology. I don’t know anything about CC San Antonio, can anyone else confirm? for now, I’m going to say Pastor Ron knows more about his payroll than Grace.

    What I was angry about was, if you did know (which Pastor Ron has now written he had NO knowledge) and you covered it up and gave us a fluff story… but if Pastor Ron had no knowledge, we have no say in criticizing his leadership. You can’t fault him for not knowing what this person does in private, especially if he’s just a volunteer. Actually it would be more wrong for him to be nosy about his volunteer’s lives. There was also NO evidence that molestation was taking place at the church.

    Pastor Ron, I think it took a lot of courage to come back here, especially after Grace’s post, who has since disappeared. Thank you.

    What I’m gleaning from everyone is they are upset because you know of this site, and you’ll not post an opinion about the abuses of CC Visalia… well, that’s something for I pray you’ll consider, but I also know if you take a stand, you’ll going to suffer much more than the rest of us. I beg the others on here to please consider this before bashing Pastor Ron.

  149. Kathy, thank you for your grace and love.

  150. River, I think Ron Arbaugh’s CC Franchise has some good policies in place (it seems).

    If what he said is true, it will be very difficult for someone with a record of pedophilia or child porn etc to work with kids at his CC.

    I’d like to see Ron’s policies be a System-wide Model vs. the lax or zero policies in many CC’s across the nation.

  151. I think it’s very telling of good stewardship that Ron submits himself to the process regularly as well.

  152. Tracy D:

    I welcome all constructive criticism. My biggest complaint against churches, including Calvary Chapel, is there no place where the congregation can air out their grievances. If they go to the Pastor, it’s usually ignored, the person is ostracized, and nothing is done.

    So, I’m going to disagree with you, WE ARE NOT GOSSIPING. We are sharing personal experiences, good and bad. Unfortunately, when it’s an open forum, you’re going to get a few that will tell outright lies or they had a horrible personal experience, but in reality, it was no fault of the church (or nothing they could control). But I’m hoping there’s enough sense in the people that read this blog that they’ll weed those people out. We (actually, it’s more Alex, it is HIS blog, I hope no one loses sight of this) are not going to call out anyone where the abuses cannot be confirmed. In Alex’s case, there is no lack of evidence, Calvary Chapel is clearly in the wrong.

    But I keep asking for proof about Raul Ries’ financial abuses against CCGS. It sure looks it, as he has a VERY expensive car and the CCGS bills are paid by an umbrella corporation that he has control over. (how do you do that on a Pastor’s salary?) But I’m not going to publically slander him till I get the full story. BUT I will get him for doing NOTHING when he heard Grenier confess to abusing his son while he was on the CC Visalia board.

    And when I write that Ries is annoying turd, I’m not gossiping, i’m stating my personal opinion. Maybe I don’t need to, but I’m sure there’s many out there that agree with me and appreciate my opinions. Do I feel bad? No, he’s a public figure. If I have the right to say Obama is crazy, then I have the right to say Ries is annoying.

  153. Alex, thank you for the response.

  154. Andrew @143; I will answer as best I can and willbe off-line for the remainder of the weekend. The only authority CCA has over any pastor is to disaffiliate a pastor/church if they become something other than a CC. By that I mean, should I turn Buddhist (your example), I would be honor-bound by verbal agreement to give up my affiliation as a CC. While it is true that some have chosen to become something other than a CC and keep their name as CC, it is only because those men refused to honor the agreement they made. Total legal recourse lies in the hands of the local board and the state in whihch the church incorporates and the by-laws they have created. Theoretically, even as a Buddhist, I could call myself a CC but I would not be included on the affiliate list nor would I be invited to conferences, etc. We pay no money to be affiliated nor do we receive any benefit financially from being affiliated. It is true that people travel from stae-to-stae looking for Calvarys but the impact outside of CA of that is minmal. When we came to TX 17+ years ago, no one (hardly) knew what CC was or had ever heard of Chuck Smith. CCA (old CCOF) has never tried to interfere in our affairs or demanded anything from us in terms of compliance. They ask only that we remain true to the distinctives we share. That is the fellowship that represents our commonality. I hope that helps you understand even if it isn’t what you believe is the best way to operate. I am accountable to my board and the lawas of TX.

  155. This is a huge problem every place now and in every organization from public schools, Catholic churches, protestant – every denomination, to Boy Scouts.

    In fact just this morning I was reading in the news about another church “pool cleaner” out of a Costa Mesa congragation that had molestation allegations..

    So, since this is happening widespread it seems what is important is not just whether background checks are conducted (might not show up on a check if not caught yet) but also whether there is follow up. Did they report any incident to police or social services for an investigation? Did they ensure that the person won’t work with kids again at any other place in their organization? Do they train their youth and children’s ministry workers safety rules (eg they don’t work alone with kids without another adult present, don’t be alone with just one child, etc.)?

    In the incident I was reading about the church reported it to police but the incidents initially were against kids not in congregation and then it turned out some in the church came forward and they were kids that the parents befriended the perp outside of church services. That was what happened in a lot of the Catholic Church incidents is they made friends with the perp outside of services. The parents basically handed their kids over on a silver platter.

    Also, another problem is the news doesn’t always report factually. Sadly, as a former news reporter, I have seen irresponsible reporting in many cases. For example the reputable Scripps newspaper I was offered a job with recently conducted an investigation in which they witch hunted the Boy Scouts but did not seek a follow up response from the Boy Scouts headquarters to the allegations. But the Boy Scouts now has safety training to prevent abuse, forbids one on one contact between leaders and boys and background checks volunteers and most of the ones complained that they did not follow up on were about children not in Boy Scouts and the perps were already being convicted and going to prison. So, while I’m not saying Boy Scouts wasn’t to blame in the past I just think there ought to be responsible journalism.

    Obviously that none of these organizations or churches had any of this stuff handled correctly in the 1960s goes without saying.

    Same goes for the schools. Even when the public schools were background checking teachers, in the event they were caught abusing, the schools disciplined the teacher within the structure, then transferred them to another school or district and let them do it again. So if the organization doesn’t report it to the police then the background check is not going to show anything, no previous convictions, etc.

    That was what happened with the Sandusky scandal. The organization wants to cover its reputation, in the cases we’re discussing, the church’s reputation. They also want to believe the person is repentant and because they know the transforming work of Christ and sanctification etc they want to believe they ought to be grace based.. But even if they are repentant a crime was committed. So the church is covering up a crime and only the victims suffer, they are suffering spiritual abuse then because the church is abusing them by not validating the abuse happened.

    I think the reason this is sooooo widespread is partly because of addiction to pornography.

    Anyhow some of the CCs are background checking. We can’t deny that. I personally saw the systems some of these CCs have. Oxnard, Camarillo are background checking for sure. But if the person has no record they won’t see anything of concern. I think that is why they make more than one adult teach so they’re not alone with the youth. But there are other CCs not doing this yet. Maybe they’re smaller and dont realize how imprerative it is. Not sure.

  156. ” I am accountable to my board and the lawas of TX.”

    And to God and to my congregation. There. Finished it for you. :)

  157. Actually, Ron, the letter you received where Chuck Smith notified you about the dissolution of CCOF and informed you of ‘the changes he has made” to the System and introduced to you the Calvary Chapel Association…spells out an Ecclesiastical Hierarchy…does it not?

    Here is a link to your “Leaders” in the Texas/Oklahoma Region:

    http://calvarychapelassociation.com/regions/ccatexasokregion/

    Aren’t you accountable to them as well?

    You seemed to make quite a distinction between “assistant’ and “Leader” earlier.

    Calvary Chapel publicly states the guys above are your “Leaders” for your “Region”

    True?

  158. From the Calvary Chapel Association Website:

    “Texas/Oklahoma Oversight Team:”

    Oversight is a word with meaning, no? If you can parse “youth assistant” vs. “youth leader” then surely “Leaders” and “Oversight” in your “Region” have meaning, no?

  159. Kathy, Moses Model pastors are not accountable to their congregations. Legally they have to have membership for that and CC’s don’t have memberships. It’s also why they don’t have to answer to you with how they spend the money.

  160. Re: Kathy

    I’m not upset that Ron won’t post his opinion here. Don’t think anyone has said that. Alex reminded us that Ron defended Bob Grenier when Alex was initially going public with the allegations against Bob on the “Phoenix Preacher Blog,” a few years ago.

    I’m noting the double standard of ignoring the allegations of 3 of Bob’s kids, backed by witnesses, along with the mound of testimony from former attenders, volunteers, and paid employees … While saying he will do all he can to protect his congregation from such sin. Can’t do both and have credibility.

  161. Alex, I’ve really appreciated your threads and posts the last few days. Things are coming to Light in God’s timing, and CC/BG/CS/CaCA are hurtling toward their day of reckoning before God and the world.
    My heart breaks for the remaining attendees at CCV. Are there any media events in the works? That may be the first that some giving units hear about all this.
    Many are praying for you and Not Alone and your families. I’m praying that you’ve secured representation and that funds are commensurate with needs as they arise. I’m Grateful that I’m Not Alone in being Overly Concerned for you.

  162. Thanks “i heart sheck”

    God has provided us with excellent representation, probably the best there is in this type of case.

    I can’t comment much more than that.

    We could still use any financial support, but it’s not an exorbitant amount, very doable.

    I love the last sentence, very clever :-)

  163. I’ll be on live tomorrow at 9am on RemnantXRadio.

    We’ll be discussing…guess which church organization? ;-)

    You can find a link to the live broadcast at RemnantXRadio.com

    there’s a link to their website on the blogroll on the left side of CC Abuse

  164. Sooner or later, CC as a collective enterprise is going to get their donkeys sued off for complicity, just like the recent court decision involving a high ranking Catholic clergyman in hiding long term multiple molestation cases.

    Not even Janet Carter will be able to argue that CC’s top hierarchy is not responsible for the actions of outlying satellites.

  165. Love it, I Heart Sheck!

    Alex & Not Alone, it’s great news to hear you have excellent representation. Praying for your provision … That the “Widow’s Mite” will be multiplied.

  166. River @ 133

    “If the United States government, with a lock down system in place and all the training known to man and to some on this board couldn’t sniff this guy out, how could the leadership of CCSA?”

    The FBI is the government. Government employee on base (air force) or post (Army) usually don’t socialize too much, so unless in passing he made a remark or had approach someone to sell the porno, they would not have alerted. At church, however, the environment aught to be as such that any person would socialize more, particularly if they are going to be asked or if they volunteer to work with minors. Pastor Ron pointed out that his congregation was quite large and basically because this man had attended 10 years and he had been involved in several adult activities he place his judgment of this man’s character based on this. Which is exactly what narcissist/psychopath/sociopath depends upon. Had Calvary Chapel been more community oriented and a system of church discipline been in place, leadership would not be left in the position of just seeing to it that activities are carried out by the “servants,” whom really does not know due to the gap that the Mose’s Model reinforces. That is, congregants or attendees do not have have a voice in decision making processes and when they don’t they leave everything up to the Sr. Pastor to discern. Since the congregation are only “servants” they only get involved as far as what’s just in front of their noses and are encouraged not to get involved in matters of church policies and procedures. In essence they just show up and follow the leader.

    “If no children were harmed at their church, it seems to me their policies are to be commended, not bashed. Because of them, a pedophile had no oppurtunity to harm a child in all the years that he was there. Am I getting this wrong? Help me understand.”

    River,

    As far as we know. At the same time, this type of disordered person will frequently have one area of their lives that is an isle of stability that he or she will used to play out the image of integrity. In many ways, its like a game to them. What more it is a place where they can be see with their children and their wife, if married, to help reinforce this false image they have contrived within themselves to psychologically cancel out any deviancy they are playing out elsewhere.

    So that when something does pop loose, people will be available to stand up for them and say or talk about all the good things they have done. In essence, he or she has played them as well. They know what they are doing. They know the difference between right and wrong–they just lack empathy which is necessary to have in order filter their conscience and to governed the self in doing harm to others. Personality disorder people cannot do this, but instead sees everything in terms of what satiates, benefits, or will harm them only.

  167. Wow, how could the church hurt so many people? This is not what Jesus intended and we all know that .. I am so sorry for all of the hurt. The church as a whole was and is full of broken people ( no matter what name or denomination is on the signage). I pray your site brings things to light and helps hurting people..

    While I cannot speak to many of the issues brought up – please let me tell you what I see in Ron Arbaugh. Ron shares his story and he is the 1st to admit his past is something he is not proud of. BUT the grace of the LORD is truly evident in his life.

    This man loves the people in his congregation. He wears his heart on his sleeve.

    Many years ago he and his wife, Paula, headed the call of the LORD and set up Calvary Chapel Christian Academy. A free, yes completely free, christian school for kids through 12th grade. The children have chapel and Bible class every day. The children are taught latin, greek and hebrew. The school is supported by the congregation. The academy provides uniforms, books, and all supplies for the children. The school is tough and is totally dependent on the LORD for everything. My son and grandson currently attend the school. The teachers carefully guard the children. Great care is taken to ensure the children’s safety. My husband and I received an email from the school letting us know about this incident. They are open and honest – good or bad. I totally trust that they are doing what is needed to make sure they are safe.

    Ron preaches 3 services on Sunday, a Wednesday service and a Friday service. And every Sunday, Wednesday and Friday are in different books of the Bible. He has Saturday morning prayer every week. He also leads pastor classes. Ron also does a call in radio show. Ron has vision problems that require his wife to help him read.

    A few years ago Ron and Paula also felt GOD leading them to start a free Medical clinic for people in the area. The FREE clinic is opening soon.. and free means free – they will not take any payment at the clinic..

    Thank you Ron…

  168. River,

    Reading through all this, but had to just pause and comment on something you said @138

    …he was kept from devouring them(children)

    ok….so you must not see what potentially is happening at many family homes, picture this…..
    you have just found out that a very demonic man who likes sex with kids and maybe likes to know they are being tormented by it has been working with YOUR child, and you think they are all thinking of how wonderful the leadership kept this monster from devouring my child and destroying their life, how nice…….sure that’s the ticket.

    They(some of the church members) do not even know the days ahead, looking a every stranger, who is he/she are they the devil with skin on?

    Maybe it’s just me……

  169. River, @ 138

    “because of the leadership in place, for years he was kept from devouring them.”

    Please believe me, it was not because of the leadership that was in place. Not to say Pastor Ron is not a good Pastor/Leader.

    It is far more insidious than this. In time, as this person work his way into a leadership role and his alter activities progressed, he would began to targeted/ groomed the “ideal” minor . Predators in their two worlds they live in eventually cross over and this is when they are usually caught. Think about Ted Bundy. At one time he was an assistant to the governor of Washington, worked a hotline, and attending school, first to study law, then medical school. He was very much well received and liked. Later, it was discovered that one girl who had called in to the hotline, Bundy had “talked down” and she received interventon for being suicidal (he spent hours on the phone with her sitting right next to Ann Rule, who is a forensic journalist). One year later he went to her home and killed her.

    So please do not think that it was due to the leadership or policy put into place. It just wasn’t where he chose to hunt, seduce and prey—that’s all.

  170. Pastor Ron @ 100

    I was making reference the article that states:

    “An FBI agent testified at a bail hearing for Holguin on Wednesday that Holguin also trolled the internet for juveniles “to rape” and that he had fondled a 15-year-old girl and took cell phone pictures of her private areas.”

    I get a sense that because you see this man as the man he wanted you to see, it’s difficult for you not to want to be more protective rather than to understand this man is a predator and have exploited you and the congregation instead.

    Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Bible-school-instructor-charged-in-child-porn-case-4094403.php#ixzz2EQvm0qKG

  171. Alex @ 136

    “Major Point”

    “If there was a Leader in the Military accused of Child Abuse and Molestation, even though there was no arrest…how would the Military handle it? Would they let the Leader continue on as is with no internal investigation? Would they support that Leader in suing the victims of abuse for speaking out and trying to get someone to investigate the charges etc?”

    In the military, if the person was a civilian or government employee, the would be placed on suspension until the case of settled through local law/legal/family courts. But if the person was military, all hell would basically break loose. Because, in their mindset, nothing should be occurring that one’s command does not know about. So, that person that is under suspicion or have been charge will not only face the civilian courts, but also JAG and military procedures and trial. Their pay may be suspended, be under house arrest, weapon taken, and or placed in isolation–that is not permitted visitors. The idea is they want to close off any leaks of information that would infringe upon their ability to get to the truth. THERE WILL ALSO BE CONSEQUENCES TO THE PERSON’S DIRECT COMMANDER for not knowing and therefore, seen as jeopardizing the mission. It will be reflected upon their records as it happened on their watch, even if it was during the time this Commander was sleeping.

    The idea that no one could have known is what many would like to believe. However, it is self deceiving for one to believe this as there were signs particularly over a 10 year period of time. As stated before, when we place our estimate upon others based upon a certain set of criteria that serves the purpose of keeping the church running smoothly, rather than upon a more personal, face to face interaction to get to the heart of another, then a person can play under the radar.

    In the military, it is commonly stated that those who command are those who serve thier soldiers which means they are there 24/7 and it is there job to know their men and women like a book, without a cover.

    So Calvary Chapel by token of the Mose’s model setup does not promote or enable such intimacy between the leadership and the congregants, but rather promotes keeping their “servant’s” occupied and carring out different tasks or duties which in turn makes some feel as though they are doing something of value and the Lord’s work. Unless, you are in the inner circle, you are pretty much detached even though you may be serving in some way. Those in the inner circle are very loyal and faithful to the Pastor and to one another. And when they hear anything that might posed the Pastor in a negative light, they become very defensive and will circle around to protect him without a hint of objectivity to the situation at hand.

    Not so with the military—they are smart enough to know that unless they insist on integrity in the ranks, when they get out in theatre (battle), when lives on the line, it is the person with integrity, courage, and character that will have their conrades back. And this is part of the reason why the father was able to apologize and ask forgiveness from his son. Because he was every inch a soldier and proved it when at the end of his days, he proved to his son and to himself, he stood in the gap and backed his son. He was not so proud that he was not able to humble himself to win the heart of his son and to help him to heal.

  172. Those who are Loving, clap your hands;
    Those who are humble, stomp your feet;
    Those who are righteous, shut your mouth!

    Just sayin,

  173. @172

    Forgot to add if it is a military person, they would not face Jag (military investigation, sanctions, and court) they would also face civilian court as well if it involved a minor or a civilian.

    Alex @ 140 “You don’t take a repentant Drunk and restore him to being a Barkeeper. That’s just bad decision making.”

    Duh—-hello. No matter how many favors he has done for you, I would add or how repentent he may be——bad, really bad, and downright stupid to do. How do you think this person got to be where he came to be, but by being able to dupe people into believing they are a new person and not given to that which enable him to do in the first place.

    Kathy @ 148

    “well, that’s something for I pray you’ll consider, but I also know if you take a stand, you’ll going to suffer much more than the rest of us. I beg the others on here to please consider this before bashing Pastor Ron.”

    Are you saying that because Pastor Ron might suffer losing his dove if he supports Alex and others in holding Bob Grenier, that he will suffer more than what these have, therefore, we ought not put him in this position by asking him to take such a postion? Also are you so easily persuaded that Pastor Ron, could not have discern the character of this person. I really have to wonder does anyone there possess the Holy Spriit and in particular exercises the gift of discernment, as well as other gifts. What is your understanding regarding the role of a Pastor because the Bible tells us that it is his business to know his flock intimately. And to say that for a pastor to know (in my words) a person’s family business is being nosey? Hmmm. That might be what the world does, but it is certainly not what the church is about. No wonder people have gone astray and so much leaven is going on in the church.

    Could it be that because CC Pastors are able to maintain an arm’s length from the congregation that it enabled Bob Grenier to keep his “family” busines from being discovered? Likewise, in the same mindset could it be that with this mindset that is practiced by a CC Pastor also enables others to hide under the radar? In turn, no one is getting involved and no one is asking questions and no one is being held to an account for fear it will all fall apart.

    I was just thinking. I can go down to the park, where the homeless people congregate and try to get some rest, and find far more transparency and accountability than CC has to offer nationwide.

    Whew, a lot of post to read through and then respond to as led or prompted. And at the end of it all I am asking why Pastor Ron came on this site in the first place? Except to defend himself in light of the article posted by Alex and for others to be convinced that it is safe to attend his church. Well, in doing so I learned a lot about Pastor Ron, and that is, when all was said and done, he still did or would and not because he could not take a stand on behalf of Alex even though he had personal knowledge that Alex has sufficient proof of these allegations of child abuse and molestation.

    Pastor Ron, it is good that you feel you are taking precautions necessary or as much as is possible to protect your congregation from predators, but when you draw the line here and do not do what you can to speak up and out to enable an investigantion to be done with Bob Grienier, then you do fall short of not doing what you know to be true base on your former history with Visalia and those boys that evidence reflects the proof of such allegations.

    My one and only question I have at this point is: Have you been told either directly or indirectly by any type of written materials within the Calvary Chapel leadership, that you are not to get involved or to speak on this matter. And if so (part of first and only question), who was this or what written material was it, that told you or intimated to you that this was to be your position?

  174. @174

    @172

    Forgot to add if it is a military person, they would not ONLY face Jag (military investigation, sanctions, and court) they would also face civilian court as well if it involved a minor or a civilian.

  175. @174

    Forgot to add if it is a military person, they would not ONLY face Jag (military investigation, sanctions, and court) they would also face civilian court as well if it involved a minor or a civilian.

    Paragraph 8 towards end:

    when all was said and done, he still did NOT or WOULD NOT, and not because he could not take a stand on behalf of Alex even though he had personal knowledge that Alex has sufficient proof of these allegations of child abuse and molestation.

  176. Moderator, please delete comment 175.

    I don’t know what happened as it posted before completing the comment that is posted in the post after this.

  177. Uriah @ 167

    The point I was making in referencing his employment was that based on the best available information, Holguin had nothing in his past to suggest he was a concern. You can’t operate (whether on an AFB or in church) under the assumption that a man walking into your environment is a pedophile and must be barred from entering. So you let him in the door.

    Jesus told his disciples that he was sending them out like sheep among wolves, and they were to be as innocent as doves, but he also told them to be as wise as serpants. Once he’s through the door, you don’t condemn him for every possible sin known to man, but you understand that he is capable of every sin known to man. So you watch him, and you put policies into effect to protect the people.

    You said “as far as we know” in regards to any kids not being hurt. That’s an unfair ace in the hole that many on this site are using. You’re affording yourself hypothetical evidence of wrong doing in order to strengthen your argument. And in your mind, the actual evidence will always be trumped by the hypothetical evidence of “well, maybe”.

    Someone mentioned a list of signs in spotting these pedophiles. Well how is it that pedophiles still walk the streets with this list going around? Could it be that these criminals do not live in the vacuum of a checklist, but rather they are living and breathing among us, knowing what we know about them, and adjusting accordingly. Could that be the reason for the ongoing problem of child abuse?

    I’m as angry as anyone here about what’s happened. The sin that Holguin was involved in is demonic. But out of respect for the victims of child abuse and out of respect for the countless that were saved from Holguin, should we be lumping CCSA in with those who won’t do it the right way simply because Holguin walked through their doors?

  178. Olivia, you said:

    “ok….so you must not see what potentially is happening at many family homes, picture this…..
    you have just found out that a very demonic man who likes sex with kids and maybe likes to know they are being tormented by it has been working with YOUR child, and you think they are all thinking of how wonderful the leadership kept this monster from devouring my child and destroying their life, how nice…….sure that’s the ticket.”

    Olivia, to answer your question, Yes!

    This is a silly example and a bit of a stretch, but take the immigration policies of the United States. Bear with me. It would be fair to say that these policies were used against us on 9/11. It would also be fair to say that they are still being used against us since 9/11. Do you honestly believe that in the 11 years since, people who want to do us harm have not entered the United States?

    So do we do away with the policy? Do we assume everyone is a terrorist and shut the borders? Should we round up everyone who can trace their citizinship to the policy and send them back from where they came? With the exception of Native Americans, there’d be none of us left.

    So, would I think it’s “wonderful that a demonic man who likes sex with kids and maybe likes to know they are being tormented by it has been working with my child”? No more than I would think it’s wonderful that terrorists are in the United States, living among us, working with us.

    But since 9/11, with the exception of the Fort Hood thing, we haven’t had a terrorist attack in all that time on this soil, and I’m grateful for that. I’m grateful that their best efforts are being thwarted by our best efforts and a lot of that has to do with the safegaurds and the careful watch of some of our leaders and their policies.

    It seems to me that despite the fact that he was there for 10 years, Holguin’s best efforts to harm them were thwarted by the best efforts of CCSA’s leadership and the policies they put in place.

  179. Dear Pastor Ron,

    Please know that I truly do grasp the difficulites that you have had to deal with concerning the recent discovery of one person, being involved in serious alledged sexual crimes concerning minors and the solicting of and selling of child pornography, who attended your church.

    At the same time I hope you are also able to understand that the things that you have heard from me specifically is meant to educate you and to make an appeal on behalf of Alex Grenier and others that attended CC Visalia. You know that a Senior Pastor can avoid all accountability due to the way Calvary Chapel is structured. And you also know that many times, this is precisely what many Pastors who are affliated with Calvary Chapel have done. We all know this and silence is one of the mechanism used to attempt make problems go away.

    Now you are dealing with something that is very personal, not just as a Senior Pastor yourself, but also with the hearts of those in your own congregation, and any questions or concerns, that have or will be a fallout due to this person being there for 10 years, within the community at large. You have come on this site to defend yourself, but also to answer questions, as you know there are many people that come here and it does provide a bit of a platform to get the word out, so to speak.

    It would seem to me that there are many more things that you can do on the behalf of your flock in protecting them and to clean up the leaven in your church. I say this not just to you directly, but more so to other Calvary Chapel’s Pastors and congregants. It is good you have a policy that does not permit an adult to be alone with a minor. And it is good that you do background checks. But this alone is not going to stop those who have issues that causes them to abuse children or others in your congregation.

    I have already suggested some other things for you to put in place. But unless there is an accountability system that crosses over between the congregants and leadership, the background check and policy are not going to stop a person who has a predatoria,l or sociopathic or psychopathic mindset. They are far too sophisticated in letting this get in their way. But if you and others get the training that provides education on domestic violence and child abuse, this will enable everyone to understand what abuse is and is not and then apply biblical principles to exercise appropriate intervention that would strengthen the family while smoking out those who would use the Bible and to abuse those who are more vulnerable given the complementarian position, while hiding under the radar at the same time. And just so you know, it is of the utmost importance that whoever this person decides to target, whether it be in the family or out of it, that they be kept silent, even if it means destroying the person very soul. Pastor Ron, I don’t need to tell you this, not with the lifestyle you left when coming to Christ. Or have you forgotten? I hope not because these things can now help you protect your flock much better. At the same time though, I would caution you to not grant mercy at the cost of any victim. Because of your former life, you may also be tempted to do this as well. DO NOT DO THIS! You must call sin, sin and get it out of the church, be it there in CCSA or elsewhere in the CC nationwide. And please do not say that you cannot do this, not when CC can rally others to come up against that which is not even affiliated with it. I was just thinking or the picture that just came into my mind what that Paul was telling in judging things within the church vs. that in the world. In turn, I was saying to myself, “for crying out loud, how is it CC can go after someone who they think is a threat to them form the outside of CC, but cannot even hold to an account one of their own?

    By taking these steps and bringing experts in, at minimum you will be at least able to identify the signs, signals, symptoms, and patterns of behaviors of such wolves, predators, abusers, and players, because although they think they are slick, they also know that if you are trained, they are less likely to hang out with you. They will go to some other church that are far more easy to seduce, exploit, and to prey upon. At the same time, realize that the accountability factor is going to increase among everyone in the your congregation, including yourself or you will lose your congregation.

    By doing this, those who have now been exposed to the reality that such does exist in your church, will be more confident and less paranoid about who is attending your church. It’s an awful thing when you cannot trust those in your church or in the leadership.

    You will be able to spot them within a short period of time and even be able to test the criterias out in determining who is or is not fit to be in a leadership role. You will also be able to better discern if when a woman or a man tells you they are being abused, committing adultery, and running a scam on everyone at the same time. In addition you and the congregation will be able to work together in providing intervention that is biblically balance, sound, and expedient for the abused and the offender.

    Most everyone on this site, have said in one way or another, that what has happened in your church is very much related to what issues Alex has with Bob Grenier in his church, Calvary Chapel, Visalia-California.

    Pastor Ron, saying all of this now brings me to say that it is quite grievious to watch you come on here and make your statements regarding your own congregation who have suffered a shock and a huge violation of the sense of safety they thought they had among those who fellowshipped with them, but then absolutely refused to break the silence that has been generated throughout Calvary Chapel Nationwide to enable Alex and others to hold Bob Grenier to an account.

    Some have made the statement that these things occur in all churches of various denominations. As if, this is supposed to somehow ameliorate the long standing unresolved complaints and allegations concerning Bob Grenier.

    Calvary Chapel Pastors, including yourself have stood back and watched to a point that Bob Grienier, a Sr. Pastor, one of your own is now suing his own son for the abuse claims made against him and the blog that Alex has set up in order to warn others and to hopefully pierce the hearts of Calvary Chapel to step up to the plate and do what should have been done long ago. Why is this being ignored? Why was this permitted to happen in the first place. Whose watch did this happened upon? I understand you were a board member? But you were not the only person that was made aware of these things.

    Pastor Ron, can you not now understand how easily it was for you to be decieved? Simply because of the criteria that you and other use in estimating the character of a man who has been arrested and charged as a predator.

    Yet, you have in front you now, that little boy who is now a man saying to you over and over again. Please help me bring what was done to me and my brothers before the church to be heard and to have an investigation done to bring justice, healing, and reconciliation–not just to me, but for my family that was torn apart and those who came after and also suffered by the handiwork of this man.

    Pastor Ron, is it possible that God has used this event that happened at your church to bring you to a full circle in order to prick your conscious and to get your attention to now take a stand to help this little boy’s family to do what they have been asking for two decades, now I believe? If it is a manner of statue of limitation, then you are not abiding in Christ in this. You are abiding in the flesh, because within God church, His will to hold a Sr. Pastor or any other to an account when leaven has penetrated those things that keeps occurring, supercedes that which is done in man’s court. Man’s court will do what it will according the the law and how well the attorneys argue their case, but Paul has called us to settle these things among us. But if there is no accountability concerning the abuses that are perpetrated by CC Pastors, the CC is not in line with Scripture and in turn revictimize that person that has been wronged already.

    It is my humble prayer that God would enable you as well as other CC Pastors to muster up the courage to step out of the ranks and to be a real leader among those who have been silenced or are being silent out of choice and do what we all know should have been done so long ago. Not leave up to the court to decide, then wash our hands when a statute of limitation has been invoked. Heaven forbid, and God help anyone who would be so arrogant and bold to give this as an excuse to wash their hands of Alex!

    His, in the cross set before me,

    Uriahisaliveandwell

  180. River,

    We say, “as far as we know” because not enough time has gone by to determine otherwise. Anyone who works with these types of individuals or have been a victim of such knows or finds that they are not the only targets, unless they are the first of many. What more it is not unuusal at all to for this person to have committed these types of things in a particular venue, if you will and totally not acted out in another.

    As for those in the world, yes there are many different types of predators walking about and we do need to know how to identify them while learning how to have good boundaries so that we will not be taken advantage of or be caught up in something that is going to harm us. We also need to be able to go to places to get help, such as our church, to support us as we work through the trauma that was experienced as a result of being victimized. But if Pastors are not trained in this respect, then the alternative is to lean on community resources. Trouble is, even the community resources are not equipped or affordable to many to enable them to recover from such things.

    I think we lose alot of time in posing questions about things that happens outside of Calvary Chapel. We recognize these things take place elsewhere–so what. All the discussion that distracts from what is or what has or what may be happening or what has occurred or what needs to be done needs to stay on track by discussing specifically those things pertaining to CC Nationwide. Anything less than this is an vain attempt at minimizing the importance and the priority set forth by those who are and will be victimized with CC Calvary if what we have shared is not initiated.

    I would think that those that are in the dark about victimization within CC would be more interested in learning from those who have been victimized, as we have an unique understanding (insight and discernment) on how it occurs and what it looks like now. Rather than to busy oneself in defending those who ignored or failed to pay attention or lack the knowledge of such things, it would be far more productive to concentrate on learning and putting into place those things that would greatly increase the well being, safety, and productivity of spiritual maturity and growth for all who attends, participate, and or take on or are in leadership positions. Be it man, woman or child.

  181. Uriah,

    I’m not defending anyone. To his own master, this pastor will stand or fall. I simply don’t understand the connection between the abuse that’s been described on this website and what happened at his church. No one has been able to tell me what they specifically did to “ignore or fail to pay attention or lack the knowledge of such things”. Are they guilty by association? Have you fully investigated the practices of his church before speaking of what they have failed to do or ignore? Or are you just assuming?

  182. River

    “Could it be that these criminals do not live in the vacuum of a checklist, but rather they are living and breathing among us, knowing what we know about them, and adjusting accordingly. Could that be the reason for the ongoing problem of child abuse?

    Good question. Over and over again what they have said is this when ask why. “Because I can.” In part, they do know what people know and how they will respond, so will adjust accordingly depending what they are trying to achieve. But usually when they know someone is one to them and that person has any influence at all, they back away like nobodies business, unless of course, the predator is seeking to take over that person’s position. An example would be that a Narcissist desires the position of a pastor so will ingratiate himself upon the Sr. Pastor. If the pastor catches on to him, he will remove the “obstacle” set in his path. Just like any person he has victimized.

    God’s word has told us what these look like, yet we seem to act as though we cannot recognize them. We simply are not paying attention. As for those that enter through the doorway, as you stated we cannot just beat them over the head with every sin that has beset them. But when those sins are a lifestyle, we are to sit down with them and call this to their attention. Not to say they are necessary predatorial, but certainly by doing so, it does let us know where they are in their walk or even if they are saved at all. But if the church is primarily a place where you’re are just listening to the message and the music and not developing a sense of community, then it’s going to a lot tougher in keeping these from being able to stay under the radar. What happens is the pulpit sort of leave it up to each individual to police him or her self. Perfect, for those who the Bible tells us to watch out for. Think of it this way, a wolf look for the weak link and works from their. Be it in the pulpit all the way down to kindercare—he or she will use each to either act out the Mr. Hyde or act in the Dr. Jekyl. Depends on how easy it is to hunt and to prey, then bury and find the next one. Simple. The more authority they have the easier it is to do. And this is why it is vital to be able to hold our pastors to an account!!

    The ongoing problem of child abuse has to do with the abuser ability to silence their victim by intimidating, isolating, alienating and also forging an alliance with them at the same time. So in part the child lives in fear, but also with what looks like love to them as well. But that love is twisted and conditioned on mirroring back to the abuser the image the abuser wants to believe about themselves. Cross that and they become enraged, vindictive and punitive. The child is condition to trust only one person, his or her abuser because the abuser has proven to them that no one is going to believe them and if they did, there’s a good change the abuser will have convince who ever to forgive them, which then gives access to the child again.

  183. River,

    You are missing the entire points of what we’re are attempting to get across. Perhaps it would be better to start from the beginning and read through all the comments again.

    What Olivia was saying is that this person used your church to put on an image of a godly man who care about children. What more while he was taking care or teaching a child, he was not thinking of that child as a human being or as one that is precious in the sight of the Lord.

    The fact that this policy was put into place is a good thing, but to say that because it was put into place it prevented this person from preying upon any of the children there is a huge assumption you cannot afford to make. So does that mean that the policy is useless? No, not at all and I don’t think anyone has stated this. But we have stated that this is only a small part of what needs to be done for the reasons we stated.

    As far as drawing a link between this congregation and the one in Visalia or any other CC nationwide, as victims we know how it goes and this is why we are spending time with you and others to try to get the message out and at the same time address the need for every Pastor to be willing to hold a Pastor to an account even when they are not within the specific CC they are leading as a Senior Pastor. CCSC is fortunate that the FBI was onto this creep—-and took it from there. Think about it if they had not caught up with him? Do you honestly believe that he would not have eventually worked his way into preying on such a victim type that he prefers within CCSA. There are many avenues within the church population to get to a target or prey. So a policy that states that one who is working with children cannot be in the company with a child alone is not going to protect your children, alone.

    Think about all the children who have been abused and molested by those in CC churches. They did not beginning targeting them righ off the bat, but in the progression of what they feed off of, it drove them eventually to become more confident in doing so as they were able to ingratiate themselves upon others earning their trust and thus being given more opportunity to prey on their targets.

    As for terroist activities, it is true the last one was at Fort Hood, but this is only due to all the times that our government using their knowledge in knowing what to look for in order to circumvent and to stop the attempts that were in the makings to happen.

    As for your example using the immigration laws that came into effect after 9/11, you stated:

    So, would I think it’s “wonderful that a demonic man who likes sex with kids and maybe likes to know they are being tormented by it has been working with my child”? No more than I would think it’s wonderful that terrorists are in the United States, living among us, working with us.

    “But since 9/11, with the exception of the Fort Hood thing, we haven’t had a terrorist attack in all that time on this soil, and I’m grateful for that. I’m grateful that their best efforts are being thwarted by our best efforts and a lot of that has to do with the safegaurds and the careful watch of some of our leaders and their policies.”

    1) The knowledge, tools, and mechanism put into place by the governement to protect us from terrorist are far more advanced than a policy that says an adult cannot be alone with a child when working with them.

    2) We are speaking of children who are not an adult so living next to terrorist as an adult cannot be compared with an adult preying on a child.

    3) You are hell bent on arguing and distracting for the sake of saying that Pastor Ron aught to be commended for keeping these children from being abused and molested by this man.

    4) He stop this man from abusing the children—the FBI did. Simply because the government had the wherewithal to understood those signs that led them to be suspicious base on the information that was given to them to cause them to investigate. One which was to have an officer pose as a 35 year old mother with children. Which by the way, how many single mothers to you have in your church. And what kind of outreach do you have for them that educate them of abusive and predatorial behavior. What activities do you have for them that enables them to socialize or to just get a break from their kids and have adult time while their children are able to be supervised by others in your church. Because childcare is terribly expensive for a single parent. Just another idea for CC to put into place to reduce the chance that such a predator will not take advantage of a mother who is vulneralbe and in need of adult companionship and alternate childcare, or a “big brother or big sister.”

    What I am trying to get across here, River is this—the government knows who, why, and how they prey—-and that policy that CCSC does nothing but say adults cannot be alone with a child. Great, so I won’t be alone with a child but I can sure be the football coach and set up a scholarship and do all kinds of fun things with them and other adults. But there will be one kind who doesn’t have a father who will have a mother who is needy and vulneralbe who will be opened to me spending some special time with their kid eventually. In the meantime, I’ll wait and just play off the good graces of everyone, because as a narcissist, any type of attention is better than no attention at all. Hell, I might even marry the woman, if she plays her cards right with me. That is.

  184. Re: Jeanie @ 168

    I appreciate the good things that Ron Arbaugh has headed up, like the free school and free clinic.

    I hope I am able to convey a great appreciation whenever anything noble (like the school and clinic) are accomplished, though I still have a caution. I have watched CC pastors do great things, yet because they held onto their total control through their Moses Model style of church government, they ended up failing behind the scenes in ways that people could not readily see.

    Here’s an example:

    Former CC Pastor Brian Abeyta of Calvary Chapel Castle Rock was thought of as a good preacher; but because the finances are not open to the attenders (the reason for no membership, btw,) he was able to get away with quietly stealing $260,000 in 2011, according to an audit. (No one checked any of the other years. It is reasonable for us to believe he stole much more than that.)

    There’s much more to the story, including –but not limited to– 3 women coming forward to say they were each in a relationship with him at the same time …. while he was telling us he was out preaching at another CC church.

    You may say this is just one bad apple, but I say this apple was allowed to go bad due to no accountability that would have discovered his slide early on and given him a chance to see the danger and repent. NO ONE can handle all the money, and all the decisions, without others –with the power to fire him– to be able to give tough love correction.

    Ron may be a superior guy, and you have no idea how much I am really hoping that’s true. I love what you’ve said he’s done and what Alex said about his living a modest lifestyle. I just know that’s not enough. Even if he’s great, if he doesn’t have accountability (Real Accountability,) OPEN FINANCES, and people around him who can really challenge him and disagree with him, then who knows when he will slide?

    Everyone has feet of clay, a sin nature, and we all will slide eventually without those guard rails in place where people can push back and show us where our thinking is off … before we get to doing what we were thinking.

    What I see over and over again with these great CC pastors is that they look exceptionally good, and then you run into some issue where they simply won’t budge and have an obviously unwise response to it. This is the red flag where I know to press for the answers. It’s the door that opens to all sorts of secrets.

    When unsuspecting people asked Abeyta if they could see the year end financials, like most churches do, they were shown the door. In other CC’s, you have to take time off of work, set an appointment and come into the building, in order to be grilled as to what trouble you were brewing by asking about the finances. Then quietly the person is black-balled from further significant involvement at the church.

    The red flag I would check with Ron Arbaugh is why is he defending/protecting CC pastor Bob Grenier who has been accused of sexual abuse by his own blood son, and physical abuse by 3 sons, corroborated by others, along with many from the church accusing Bob of spiritual abuse, financial improprieties, prescription drug abuse, etc…. The accusers stories back one another. They were there in Bob’s church, in Bob’s home and family, and they KNOW Bob. How well does Ron know Bob? Was Ron there? Why would Ron not want someone to look into the allegations? Why would Ron stand up to those abused and protect the accused abuser? RED FLAG that needs looking into.

    Could it be that Ron is more loyal to CC than to Jesus? Could it be that Ron chooses not to be cross Chuck Smith at all costs? Could it be he’s succumbing to intimidation or peer pressure from other CC pastors who need to be protected themselves so they promote such blind loyalty? I have no idea … but these questions are valid in light of Ron’s support of Bob Grenier.

    Again … I would LOVE to find out differently. I would love to find out that Ron just didn’t know better a few years ago and is now wiser, especially in light of what has happened in his own church, and realizes now that he must do right, regardless of how Chuck Smith sees things, or how the CC pastor mafia operates. TRUST GOD and do RIGHT! HE is watching and HE KNOWS.

  185. Correction on who stopped this man from preying on the CCSA children:

    4) He DID NOT stop this man from abusing the children BY HAVING THIS POLICY IN PLACE—the FBI did. BECAUSE of lack of knowledge, he did not recognize the signs that could have been discovered had he known or at least become aware that he did know them, but did not apply them.

    Have it ever occur to anyone that even though we see the signs we do not take them seriously but pass them off as not wanting to be criticial or too judgmental. That it is better to wait until a child is molested or abused with physical evidence before becoming to concern enough to investigate more? Because I guarantee you this is what happens most of the time. Have you ever heard a child screaming, stop! or crying in an unusual tone, as if in pain or whimpering or just off to the side, listless or hesitating from playing with others or not speaking at all. Have you ever seen a woman wearing sunglasses in church or on a cloudy day or in the store while standing next to her husband. Have you ever witness a man being overly attentive to his wife or to other women, while putting more attention looking to see who’s watching him to get their approval instead. Have you ever wonder why that woman never has much to say or maybe there is a spot on her face that has a little bit more makeup than the rest of her face? Have you witness a man or a woman back up when began to express and opinion, then stop suddenly while their spouse takes over and dominate the conversation. Have you ever witness a spouse standing with their wife with others, but the husband turns in such a way that it cuts off the other spouse from being involved in the conversation? Have you ever seen a spouse paid more attention to a child than his own wife or treats their child like an adult. One or two of these does not necessarily mean anything, but several put together in different situations is a pattern and ought to be a red flag of concern at minimum.

    There so many signs that are there if we know what we are dealing with or looking for.

  186. I don’t have to read much of these blog replies to know how simple-minded you people are. First of all, CCSA DOES screen their lay teachers. ALSO, each and every class has two non-related adults in the room for accountability. They ALSO do background checks. One man’s hidden life gets exposed one day and all of a sudden his church created him. You guys that swallow this are ignorant beyond belief. You are just looking to find a demon under every rock so you can bash every church. I can copy this whole post and all of the “news” articles and replace Calvary with the Roman Catholic Church…or Baptist Church…or Assemblies of God…or Seventh Day Adventist…the list goes on and on because sin is crouching at EVERYONE’S doorstep and it wants to have us. I have likely sinned in my writing/speech here.

    This man will receive his rightful punishment and it is alarming. It by no means is a reflection on CCSA. He has done this in darkness and it was revealed in light. Every denomination has guidelines to follow and typically the first one is the “duh”….protect the children. You are terribly naive and misled if you think any of the Calvary Chapels…or even the churchs I hold in contempt do not do what is necessary to protect the children.

    Did this event happen at CCSA? NO
    Has this happened at the very public school district you send your children to every day? YES
    Why don’t do rant and rave about these places?
    Hmmm…..I know….because they are not places of religion.

    Enough Said!

  187. Alex – Great to hear that you two have representation and especially “excellent representation”. Praise God. You will win. It’s a no brainer.

    To Bob Grenier - I know you are reading this. Twitter recently sent me an e-mail that you “favorited” my tweet regarding your lawsuit. I have it in my inbox, although you later “unfavorited” it. You follow the typical behavior of others like you by following people who talk about you. Do yourself a favor. Save yourself and your church members their tithe money. Withdraw the lawsuit. Do the right thing.

    Enough damage has already been done. Stop this craziness. Get a mediator and get these issues resolved the right way. Let Gayle reconcile with her son and grandchildren. This lawsuit only reinforces to so many how corrupt church is. You will have to answer to God for this, Bob.

  188. Speakthetruth said, “Why don’t do rant and rave about these places?
    Hmmm…..I know….because they are not places of religion.”

    Because the Public School System has mandatory background checks in place System-wide, Calvary Chapel Association does not have that in their Affiliation Contract.

    Because the Public School System has a policy in place to remove, report and investigate allegations/accusations of a teacher / personnel of Child Abuse, Molestation, Child Porn etc.

    …Calvary Chapel System does not. Nothing in their Association and Affiliation Contract that requires a pastor or youth teacher or youth leader or youth worker to be removed pending a full investigation. No mandatory background checks required to get Chuck Smith’s Endorsement and use of the CC Name and License and logo etc.

    That’s a Problem

  189. A trusted CC Costa Mesa insider told me that the vast majority of Calvary Chapels out there (there are reportedly 1500) do not have mandatory background checks nor any other mandated policies to help protect kids.

    That’s a big problem.

  190. So, for the average CC parent who moves from one CC like San Antonio where they do a good job vetting folks and reporting and not “restoring” child porn, child abuser or molesters / pedophiles…to another CC that restores so-called repentant pedophiles to ministry or doesn’t do background checks, etc or tries to handle molestation reports “in house” etc…then the parents have a serious problem.

    CC needs System-wide mandated Policies in place inside the Affiliation Agreement/Contract. They are a Brand and folks are loyal to the Brand. Chuck and CC Association have a moral responsibility to provide more than doctrinal ground rules when they endorse and sponsor CC Affiliates.

  191. Julie Anne, I just read what you wrote to Bob.

    Amen and thank you.

  192. Uriah: This is getting annoying. I’m not going to not blindly agree with everything Alex posts and I’m not going to bash CC Visalia every opportunity I can. I’ve clearly stated that CC Visalia needs to be rebuked, that CC, as a whole, is wrong with not admonishing him, and I support Alex’s relentless effort to bring this about.

    that being said, no, I’m not going to call out Pastor Ron, who is obviously a man of God, who has done great things for God and man. He and EVERY OTHER CC PASTOR has been quiet about CC Visalia. I admonish the Calvary System as a whole. But to come here and attack him when he is trying to explain to the masses what happened at CCSA is WRONG, imho.

    Uriah: I said I respected you before because you brought great wisdom. but now I’m admonishing you… don’t be a sheep.

    I understand Alex’s need (may I say obsession?) to bring about justice to CC Visalia (and rightfully so, as he was a victim of abuse). I don’t complain about it because it is HIS blog, he can do whatever he wants of it. But I hope you understand, I don’t have to agree with everything he writes, just because I comment on here.

    And secondly, being a part of the CC Children’s Ministry, I have admitted, IN PUBLIC, that I never submitted my application or got fingerprinted. I’ve also stated that with their current ministry, it would be very hard to do so. I served over 2 1/2 years in the children’s ministry with no problems or complaints. For every 9 good volunteers, there will be 1 sexual predator. Yes, that’s horrible. But what you need to understand is it is much harder to find the 9 good loyal volunteers than anything else.

    You are absurd to think my pastor would know about what websites I go to, if I fornicated, if I really care about children, etc… he doesn’t pay me. Who would volunteer under those conditions? Although he did sternly warn us that if we’re not qualified, we need to remove ourselves from ministry. You can try to push for a church-wide system but I would advise you put your efforts more into getting parents to care more about their children, so they can volunteer 4 hours a week to helping out a Children’s ministry.

    Seriously… Pharisees at their worst here.

  193. Kathy, no one has to agree. That’s America.

    I do think, however, that Ron and Steve and the other CC Senior Pastors who make up the Calvary Chapel Association have a responsibility to speak up in these matters.

    Ron Arbaugh told me in emails when asked that he’d warn the other CC’s in his area and notify them of Holguin. I applaud that. I think it should go further…to the whole System through the CC Association. They communicate with all 1500 CC Pastors all the time in correspondence etc with regards to other matters. They can certainly add warning about known child dangers that they become aware of in CC’s.

  194. I find it interesting when people comment without really following the train of thought.

    Alex posts
    Red Herrings get thrown in
    The conversation gets side-tracked
    Or muddled
    Then come the personal attacks
    Based on a false understanding of the premise

    Oivey ….

  195. I guess it’s just the nature of the blog world.

    Glad you stick to the point, Alex.

  196. I have asked this question before but will ask it again. How long would a pastor, leader, teacher, etc last at a CC if said person taught or held to “beliefs” such as Reformed theology, the validity of the Theory of Evolution, non literal view of such events like the flood, tower of Babble, Exodus, preterist or partial preterist eschatology and so on.

    When compared to abuse of children or adults these issues are well complete and total nonsense at best. Just saying.

  197. @ 187 Speakthetruth

    LOL that’s what happens when a person does listen to the whole matter—open mouth, insert foot.

    No one is bashing CCSA or Pastor Ron. Since you indicated that you did need to read through the comments, who has told you otherwise? As far sinning as a result of what you so thoughtfully and emotionally shared—-you tell us, have you and if so, would say you owe someone an apology? Please slow down, back up and don’t be quick to speak. You just might learn something.

  198. Correction: Since you indicated that you did NOT need to

  199. Kathy,

    I find your comment interesting. On one hand you support but in the same breath you pull that support from under what first appeared as if you understood what we are attempting to accomplish here. No one is trying to bash Pastor Ron. If there is criticism offered it has to do with what we see that can strengthen CC nationwife. What more, we are referencing Pastor Ron as a CC Pastor who can stand up for Alex’s and others to be heard as he has requested.

    Now when you say that this is Alex’s blog and he can do whatever he wants on it, then point that in doing so, that he is being obsessive, then I really have to ask myself, exactly where are coming from? Do you have to agree with what we say here? Absolutely not. But when you act like a friend, but then slap down what Alex and others, including myself is attempting to accomplished and frame it in a mindset that we are trying to do CCSA or any other CC harm, then I have to ask myself exactly where are you coming from?

    My comments stands as is: not to hurt or to tear down, but hopefully, to help others to take a look and see that there is far more that can be done to protect those who attend CC nationwide and that it is long overdue for CC to make a structural change that would enable accountability that would reduce the corruption and leaven to go on.

    Oh by the way, this man’s problem didn’t begin with him attempting to sell child pornography, so if you’re thinking that is all you need to worry about or that’s the only place that you can determine if a person is a wolf of any sort, whew! Have you not heard who sin works? This man has been doing this for some time in a variety of ways, direct and indirectly——-. This is why it’s important to educate the church in understanding exactly how these things comes about to be while taking the precaution to protect and to discern, long before there is a string of victims. And by the way, each person, including the Pastor was exploited, therefore, victimized by this person. And this is why I have shared with others what would be of benefit to all. It has absolutely nothing to do with how bad the Pastor may or may not be. Zip! But it does have to with it did happen and it is happening and in many cases such as Alex, mine and others — because it concerns the leadership, nothing has yet to be done about it.

  200. Was just thinking about “accountability” and how things work much better when it is in place. When it isn’t, then I think about cheating, lying, stealing, robbing, conning, exploitation, abusing, using, adultery, fornication, false doctrines, psuedo, and well, the list goes on.

    Then what comes to mind is: flesh vs. spirit, dark vs. light.

    It is not unloving or unkind to call any pastor or pastors out who represent a church that has been a part or a party to abuse committed against one or many. It is a biblical mandate that we do this. The is, if we love the Lord and His church.

  201. Uriah: This site is called Calvary Chapel ABUSE. It’s not called Alex’s Relentless Pursuit to have Bob Grenier to step down from ministry.

    But you’re right… what am I doing here? It’s become (or maybe it has been and I refuse to admit it) a pep rally for Alex and a place to say nothing constructive towards Calvary Chapel, just heap verbal attack upon verbal attack.

    May I add, this site is becoming what it hates… a place where people can verbally abuse one another, and no one is held accountable, nothing gets changed.

    If the above happens, it makes me very sad, as for a few days, I saw a glimmer of hope. That something like this site might just restore the church, and bring back those who have been abused and were silenced. It would make church a safer place.

    But as for the Alex pep rally, you’re right I’m done. If I want to blindly follow someone, take everything he says as gospel, then be asked to financially support him… hmmm… I may as well go to Calvary Chapel. At least they serve donuts there. Oh the irony…

    But what do I know.

  202. So this website is about how people have been hurt by Calvary Chapels around the US. I see. Lets see so people get hurt all the time so are we as “Christians” suppose to slander one another. Do you Alex not have faith in Jesus that he will vindicate you against the people who have hurt you. Do You Alex not showing your children it’s okay to take things into your own hands and not let God do what he has promised for thousands of years. You can easily come here and judge every bad thing that happens in a Calvary Chapel but what about your daily sins or the rest of you on here bashing Pastor Ron. You have no idea how things are run here or taken care of. Don’t judge CCSA for what happens at other CC’S. As for Sarahi probably another bitter person who got angry because she didn’t agree or got the answer she wanted. It’s unbelievable how so many of you claim to live Jesus but all you have shown is how stupid and easy you can be sucked into all of this stuff that does nothing but put bitterness in people’s hearts that don’t know the whole truth just accusations from one person to another. I’m sorry for any of who have been truthfully hurt. Pastor Ron is one of the most forgiving men I know. Those of who say other wise then oblivious you don’t know him. He has forgiven so many people who have done awful things to him and his congregation. Those people have been welcome back and loved by him no matter what. The Academy where the children are loved and cared for by people who sacrifice everyday to get up and come to work not knowing if they are going to get a paycheck that week or not. Come with a heart to serve and love. Where do they learn that from from there Shepherd. So Alex and the rest of you with issues with CC ‘S quit talking about issues that dont concern you and quit this hate campaign against every Calvary Chapel when you don’t know each and everyone of them personally. A lot of people were deeply hurt by this situation and there are many broken hearts because he was like family. That’s how close we try to be as real Christians. We love no matter what. We forgive and move on. We let Jesus take care of our enemies. “Vengeance is mine says The Lord “. So all of you who are throughing stones and judging, what would you say that I was an ex hacker….lets just say that I am… And I told you by you just posting things on this blog I can track your IP address and see what’s on your computers will they be pure and innocent? Well they….just asking….”LET HE WHO HAS NOT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE” John 8:7. All of you will have to answer to God for everything you have spoken about and make false accusations on this blog or overly exaggerated on your own version of “truth”. If I were you I would stay away. Let the truth and vengenges be the Lords.

  203. Priscilla: the bitterness was already there. The church put it there. I’ve only expressed it on here.

    Priscilla, I’m not faulting CCSA, I don’t think Pastor Ron did anything bad in this situation. But it’s because of believers like you that there needs to a site for people to air out their grievances.

    “Do you Alex not have faith in Jesus that he will vindicate you against the people who have hurt you. Do You Alex not showing your children it’s okay to take things into your own hands and not let God do what he has promised for thousands of years”

    Yes, that’s scriptural… but have you read the book of Corinthians? How about Revelations? Is Paul and Jesus brimming with kindness and praise to the churches? No, he’s pointing out their flaws, which the churches have cleverly been able to conceal. He is getting in their face, and making it uncomfortable… all in the hopes of reconciliation (and reconciliation starts with the abusers admitting there was abuse and it was wrong.

    When I come to your place of worship, and trust you are leading a flock, and leading by example… then I am called to higher standard. Some may not agree with me, but God agrees with me. How disappointing it is to have given of my time and talents to an organization, only to find out they weren’t using my talents to give back to God? They were never spiritually healing people, leading them to Jesus, helping the broken-hearted… church was all about them. I would never have served, and so self-lessly, if I didn’t think I was serving Jesus.

    People may go to church to serve a pastor but not me, I went to church to serve Jesus. But maybe I’m crazy and in the minority… one of my Children’s Ministry leaders once told me, “I’ve got to invite you over for dinner and thank you for what you’re doing for ME.” And I was stunned, I quickly corrected him and said, “I’m not doing this for you, I’m doing this for Jesus.” I just saw him as a fellow servant in Christ, he saw himself as the leader and people were doing this to see his ministry succeed. Weird, isn’t it?

  204. I like the way you guys do this thing…the way you quote what people you don’t agree with say.
    Some people find themselves higher than Christ too bad for them thinking they are. By the way WE ARE NOT JESUS OR PAUL…who are we to point out other flaws…are you without flaws…when you point one finger to someone you always have three pointing back or is that not count here. Sorry you went to a church such as that. No one could of ever thought this would happen there it is horrible what he did. Just because they do background checks if you have never been arrested for child abuse or convicted it won’t show up. If the military didn’t pick up on it then how could CCSA. So instead of “let me shove this crud in face kinda of thing”. You should learn how to pray and love the way Jesus would have you to and let CCSA grieve and heal from their broken hearts.

  205. Why did Pastor Ron come on this site in the first place?

  206. @uriah why don’t you go all the way back up and find out. By the way you sure write a lot. Do you remember every thing you write?

  207. Lol!

  208. Priscilla

    The was the whole point of posing the question in the first place as your previous comment came across as being terribly defensive and not grasping the bigger picture, nor the heart of this blogsite.

    So, I would that you take your own words and apply them to yourself. I’m sorry if you were not able to take the heart and information of what I and others are trying to get across to those at CCSA and CC nationwide. I would that once you are able to work through your defensiveness that you are able see through the fog of it and understand no one is trying to bash you or anyone else here. I hope you can find it in your heart to do the same.

  209. My apologies:

    “So, I would pray and hope that you would take your own words and apply them to yourself. I’m sorry if you were not able to take the heart and information of what I and others are trying to get across to those at CCSA and CC nationwide. I would hope that once you are able to work through your defensiveness that you are able see through the fog of it and understand no one is trying to bash you or anyone else here. I also hope you can find it in your heart to do the same.

  210. That’s all this blog is…bashing all the calvay’s because they bear the same name and because we are associated by name. This does not mean CCSA operates the same as all the other Calvary’s. …Bitterness is all this blog is about..forgive and move on…

  211. Priscilla,

    Drink milk, and step away from the kool-aid. You just might some day come to realize you were discieved. Is someone forcing you to come on here? Sounds like you have a above average cc, you are not helping your pastor because you are so angry, you make him look bad, IMO. I will not be speaking to you anymore, so have a good evening.

  212. No i am not upset just the opposite @olivia….one can’t make another look bad everyone is accountable for there own accountability. I love pastor ron with all my heart because he i s a true follower of Jesus ..Almost everyone has a heart to serve one anoth er and many that come through that door. I love our elders and all our pastors and ministry leaders. Our Calvary is like no other.

  213. “Our Calvary is like no other.”

    Careful… Idolatry and pride slip in easily when we lift our churches to such a high status. Pastors, elders, leaders, etc… All have sin natures. Their feet are of clay. Anyone can fall and no one walks with Jesus perfectly. It’s dangerous to yourself and to the leaders when you revere them so highly. Having a healthy respect is one thing, but praise that high sets you all up to fall.

  214. You know, when one is only accountable to themselves—–hmmm. Inevitable harm is just around the corner.

  215. It would be more accurate to say: When one is only accountable to “one” self—–hmmm. Inevitable harm is just around the corner–usually towards another because the one who is only accountable to “one” self cannot see beyond “one” self. But they do like hanging out with like minded people. Kool aid—I wonder.

  216. Priscilla,

    “No i am not upset just the opposite @olivia….one can’t make another look bad everyone is accountable for there own accountability.

    You are playing word games and being a snippet in doing so. At the same time you behave yourself as though you are above it all——as you love your pastor and those in your fellowship and “many” who walk through the door. Is that contigent on them following in your footsteps or is that because you have the love of the Lord in your heart.

    Not trying to hurt you, but am making an attempt to help you see the way that you have presented yourself in pretending not to be angry, as Olivia suggested, and defensive, as I have already stated a few commens ago. Obviously, you are not open to hear anything that we feel is important for you, others, and Pastor Ron need to know. So rather than to play these games, don’t you think you could spend your time more wisely by either considering what we have to share and if its helpful then buy up on it and if is not, then go on your way.

    Before you do go though, please ask yourself if you think God has called us to speak up and defend those who have been abused by a Sr. Pastor. And if so, since Pastor Ron is the man that you say he is—wouldn’t he then be such a person to do jus this?

    I’m not asking you to answer any of these questions. I’m only suggesting you ask yourself these things. Since you are not accountable to anyone, that is. No pun intended. Just trying to speak your language, as it appears you do not understand ours.

    Whatever you do decide to do—just know we would love to have you here, although with an attitude that is less contentious towards everyone. Honest to goodness, we are not the enemy, Priscilla. You do not have to agree with us, but please at least be willing to hear what we have to share and know it is not about hating or trying to anyone harm. but to speak the truth regarding corruption and abuse that has yet been investigated by CC and its leadership nationwide. That would involve Pastor Ron, particularly when you say he is a man of he Lord and above reproach. I don’t know how much of this blog you have reviewed, and I’m thinking maybe you only have seen this one stream. I would invite you to spend more time in reading through over 2 years of comments made by many people who have attended CC for years across the USA and on foreign soil. I am hoping that as you do this, your heart would open and you would be far more receptive and understanding our own hearts as brothers and sisters in the Lord who actually do care about you, Pastor Ron, and all who named themselves among those in the body of Christ. But just like Paul stated, “What you count me (us) as an enemy, because we tell you the truth?”

  217. Hey Alex,
    I just saw this article today regarding Jacob Robert Holguin. Did you ever get an answer from his Calvary Chapel pastor? I may do a follow up story on this over at Lighthouse Trails. Interesting, to say the least, that his pastor defended your step dad.

  218. Maybe Raul Rees was too busy with his Jihad against Popery to worry about child rape. After all, Antichrist Romish Popery is far more important Theologically and Ecclesiologically and Soterologically and Eschatologically than Born-Again Bible-Believing pedophiles among God’s True Elect doing their thing. (“I like rape… I like to see them saying No, It Hurts, Stop…”)

  219. So where is this guy now???
    Hundreds of studies, from what I have read, state that most pedophiles cannot be cured, and do not want to be.
    How many Calvary chapels does this have to happen in?
    The pastors that try to cover it up should be thrown in jail as well as accessories to the crime!!
    I am sick about this, Calvary Chapels need to be consistent in their back ground checks for any staff, not just children’s workers or youth pastors!

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