Jun 082013



The 2013 Calvary Chapel Senior Pastors’ Conference took place this last week at Murietta Hot Springs Conference Center, CA.  You can find their schedule and speakers here.

The theme:  Revelation 3 (by Chuck Smith).  Other speakers were assigned verses 7-11.

They really think they are the church of Philadelphia (brotherly love).  You can believe anything when you don’t have members of the church to hold you to an account and when you cannot see beyond the Moses Model or its distinctives.


Word for Word, verse by verse:

The Faithful Church

“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:

“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

 Posted by at 5:33 pm

  132 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Senior Pastors’ Conference 2013”

  1. My initial knee-jerk reaction:

    “Line by line, verse by verse,” according to the “Distinctive of the Moses model, which can be viewed on the Page: Chuck Smith Creeds: the “Calvary Chapel Distinctives”

    I think they would have done better focusing on: The church of Sardis, it is a more accurate description in my opinion of CC—-but then there is the Moses model.

    You would think that any church that would have a blow out like this with their top leaders would focus upon the CHURCH. That is those whom they are called to serve. On their site: Calvary Chapel Association, under Ministry Helps (still under construction), it is broken down into 3 categories. Bibliography or written work by CC Pastors, Business (how to start a CC), and Development (setting up different ministries)

    Not one word——-relating to the needs of the CHURCH. Per Conference schedule, focused on the Church of Philadelphia (Guest Speakers) then filled the time in between with break out groups and “Missions” share time. Nope, not one word regarding the real CHURCH —- the one not mentioned in their corporate by laws.

    I keep asking myself, where is the CHURCH in the Calvary Chapel (s). Not in their corporate by-laws, the Distinctive (all about CS), their bible colleges, association, or even by and large, their missions. I see a lot of men, but I don’t see the CHURCH. In my opinion, one would think that the leadership would spend less time patting one another on the back and more time bowing their hearts in repentance in order to get to the heart of the matter that they keep on ignoring. That is, the corruption and blatant abuse against the very people that the Bible has told them to serve. Blind men, leading the blind—-while oppressing and ignoring the cries of God’s children.

    Revelation, ch. 3:1-6
    (NKJV) (Bible Gateway)

    The Dead Church

    3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
    ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You[have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

    Can’t help, but be reminded of this article:


    For the sake of the true church, and those who have attempted to bring truth into CC’s.

  2. When I drove by years ago and discovered that Calvary chapel now owned Murrieta Hot Springs I can admit I was disappointed and sad.Back in the 80’s it was a beautiful resort out in the middle of the “country”. It had an amazing restaurant there too open to the public. Murrieta Hot Springs was a dirt road that went way out in the hills away from any surrounding cities. Surrounding this resort was just nature. Now its in the middle of the surrounding city of Murrieta. Times have changed out there – wall to wall bedroom communities where there was once fields and dirt roads where the asphalt ended.

  3. I’ve read that article from Ingrid before. She sure understands spiritual abuse – even from her own family.

  4. I did watch Raul Ries in the message that Uriah mentioned and than watched Chuck Smith. So this is my take/observations. Certainly I would have to say rr gave a good message and I had expected to see some motive come through, but I did not decern any to my surprise. However I would say his words do hold him to act out, imo, act out to make sure all the he lives and does reflects this end. So words are cheap actions are much more telling.

    As for cs message, does he not have another song to sing but the one he sings over and over again, Jesus is coming soon. Wow what else, anything, anything at all.

    Oh yeah I guess Jesus is coming soon and MY church is Philadelphia.

  5. Gary,

    Remember that song, “Killing me softly with his love?” I think Linda Ronstadt sang it. Thought you might be able and interested in doing something with it in light this new posting.

  6. Correction—the song was done by Roberta Flack. This is a song about a Narcissist and the way they love, by the way. For a Narcissist looks into the mirror (you) and then says he loves you, but what they are doing is only mimicking you.


    Thought for today:

    “This conference is for Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor and their Assistant only”

    Where Is the CHURCH in all of this?

    That would be Assistant Pastors which is a wise thing to do, however, where does the board members fit in all of this? Most don’t even attend the CC they are supposedly coming together, “in the name of the Holy Spirit” to guide them in making decisions “on the behalf” of the “church” affairs. Which can only include those things that are closest and nearest and dearest to them. And anyone beyond this—do they really matter. Not according to the Bible and the severe, admonition our Lord and so many others gave regarding the care of the “real” CHURCH.

    Oh, the Board members might show up once in a while, but regular attendance? So, they really are not in touch with the sheep any more than the SP is, now are they. What are the Assistant Pastors used for and what about the elders and deacons? Is it really to minister to the spiritual, emotional, and concretes needs of the “flock” as described by, Jesus, Paul, and others.

    But their celebrity status is certainly played up isn’t it? And the donors eat it up and feel privileged by their presence, and then if they actually “get to” speak to them—-well, that just feels so special, doesn’t it? But what platform is given to you as a man or a woman to enable you to bring your concerns, your questions, and your complaints privately and congregationally to them? By the way, in order to incorporate, you have to have board members. I’m not sure, but I also think they are not permitted to take a salary. I could be wrong on this. The board members are suppose to add balance and integrity to the corporation. Has absolutely nothing to do with the body of Christ, unless it is specified in the by-laws and even then, to what extent remains a huge vehicle that is often used in place of voice of the church at large.

    Which bring me to thinking about the CHURCH. Where is it? Because it appears to me the only one that is ever visible is the Senior Pastors and less frequently, the Asst. Pastors. Where is the Bride of Christ? Why do they not have an active, visible and viable, part and voice in the affairs of that which is supported by their offerings, volunteerism, and mission works?

    Simple Answer:

    CC church does not consist of biblical members (sheep) per by-laws and affiliation status. Let me say this again. CC does not consist of biblical members (sheep) per by-laws and affiliation status. Therefore, any conference held by CC is not going to be about actual hands on pasturing , tending, and feeding the sheep. It’s all lip service. It’s a smoke and mirrors. It’s an illusion created by Chuck Smith using what he coined to be the Moses model—-the Movement.

    Oh, you might feel as though you are a part of something, but do you realize that you are a mere extension of a very narcissistic oriented system called the Moses model. This has zip to do with love and care for the sheep. As a matter of fact, it is impossible to truly love and care for the sheep while holding onto this mindset and infrastructure.

    Simply, because it’s not about the CHURCH. If it were, they would spend far more time at their conference figuring out how to go about making right the wrongs they’ve committed or enabled among the leadership and among those in the congregation that have abused their spouses as a result of being so corrupted by the pride and ego that demands the control, attention, and riches, they guard so well behind and as a result of using “the Moses model and CS Distinctives.”

    CC calls itself a church, yet makes the congregation into “giving units.” They have little or no empathy whatsoever towards the genuine needs of a congregation, but focuses upon their own instead. They have not clue what it means to be true servant in terms of what Jesus has told them to be, except perhaps, those who have lifted them up and now they must pay the loyalty dues to them, by ignoring the corruption and rampant abuses, and sexual immorality practiced among them.

    They preach about these things, but do not apply them to themselves, or among one another, as the Apostle Paul have instructed. Instead, they take the victims of these corrupted and abusive behaviors and permit themselves to turn a deaf ear, a blind eye, and hardened their hearts to enable one of their own to sue his stepson?????

    And then they use the manipulative and most severe form of psychological abuse there is: Gaslighting. And call themselves what, a church.

    And by lip service only tell you, that you are a member?

    Not the CHURCH——not you.

    Yet Jesus has told us something else and unless we speak the truth, you may be falling prey to a systemic problem among CC that is ever so able to mesmerize you into believing that what they are doing has anything at all to do with the Bride of Christ. Heck, they don’t even care if your husband cheat on you or if you molest or beat on your wife and children.

    Do you really think they care if you need food or other kind of concrete assistance, if you are not part of the inner circle.

    Test it out—-Find out how they spend the offerings. Ask for specifics, then ask them why they permit adulterors to continue in the pulpit or to take on ministry roles of leadership. Ask them why they don’t speak up for Alex and others.

    Ask then why they use the court system rather than to do as Paul tells them to do. Ask them why they don’t have seminars and training by experts on domestic violence and child abuse. Ask them why they do not encourage and permit an outpouring of the Holy Spirit by enabling every man, woman, and child to exercise their gifts.

    Why is it that only the “head” is recognize. Yet, we are all anointed, having the Holy Spirit, able to discern and to interpret scripture and to apply it to judge the things in the church and to apply church discipline among all, including them. Since when in the N.T. was the Pastor to be the most important, or rather the only members of the church body.

    Here’s an interesting article concerning the Visible and the Invisible Church:


    As with any article submitted for consideration, shine the light of the Word of truth upon it and glean what is in line with scripture and what is not, simply dismiss.

  7. The quote which Ingrid cited from Jack Watts caught my attention with this:

    At the same time, few are willing to call them to task, exposing their behavior to the light, reasoning that such whistle blowing would harm God’s work.
    (from Jack Watts, “Self-Deprecating Narcissists”, Emphasis added.)

    I can’t help wondering if that’s where DS’s mind is. Some of the stuff he lets CS get by with on Pastor’s Corner… yi!

    That said, the complete quote put me in mind of RW, more than anybody.

  8. When in the book of Revelations it says, “Behold I am coming quickly”, the word ‘quickly’ should be taught as meaning obviously not necessarily in any particular decade as many many years have passed since this was written. But I’ve only heard it used as if it means literally ‘quickly’ like right away in this present lifetime. Perhaps things written weren’t meant to be taken so ‘literally’ as many bible teachers teach.

  9. Chuck (not Smith)

    That’s what the Pharisees and Saducees said about Jesus when he was exposing their hearts.

    I give up—-who is DS and RW?

    By the way, the CC Assoc. just revamp their website. They included a video to show the outreach they were doing for the Hurricane Sandy victims. Wish they would do an outreach to the hurricane victims within their own congregation.

    Also, the regions were split up again—-very different than before.

  10. # 8

    Response to this statement over on the End Times thread, so not to deviate or get side tracked on this thread.

  11. It seems as though you attended this conference. How and Why? Are you a senior pastor? Or did you listen to the small portions that were broadcast?

    Your hate is sad. And your assumption of what was said at the conference is off.

    I will be praying for your heart to be freed from the hatred.

    The is no such thing as the perfect church and there was much encouragement to examine the short comings in our fellowships.

  12. #10 – My comment at #8 was from this thread – under ‘The Faithful Church’. It was not a comment about the ‘End Times’. It was about the word ‘quickly’ from this thread. It was not a deviation. I was realizing not everything can be taken ‘literally’ in the bible.

  13. Seth, you miss the point.

    Since you took the time to reprimand this site, then we invite you to read Alex’s story and to read through the thread on the sidebar of people’s experiences all over Calvary Chapel’s both here and abroad. Then reread this thread in light of that and see if you don’t see this from another perspective.

    You ought to know what you are really criticizing.

  14. Seth,

    There’s no hate in my heart towards CC. But there is a huge concern that CC does not take the corruption and abuses perpetrated against a body of Christ, that they barely recognize due to the Moses model more seriously.

    “there was much encouragement to examine the short comings in our fellowships.”

    All who have ever had anything to do with CC leadership have known about these “shortcomings for a very long time. For instance, how old is Alex and his brothers and how long have CC permitted adulterers to continue in leadership, while parading their adulterous marriage partner before them, even into your conferenes. How many of your women and children have cried out due to being abused, molested, betrayed, and cheated upon?

    “Examine” yourselves? Really, and so what else is new? How about purging that person from among you? How about bringing yourselves before the congregation to give a public apology while restoring the things these victims have lost instead of supportin even one in taking them to court? How about getting rid of the Moses model altogether and rewriting your by-laws to include men and women, to be on your board who are not related to the pastorate. How about bringing in domestic violence experts.

    Instead of saying that I am angry and that you will pray for me, how about ceasing from this manipulative tactic to minimize that which is long, long overdue and far spent past the point of self examination.

    The criticism stands as is and is given in the heart and mindset of our Lord. From one who has attended CC probably longer than you are old and, am a bit tired of hearing the same old rhetoric.

    Amazing, you have to attend a conference to be “encourage to examine yourselfs.”

  15. Chuck (not Smith)

    Figured out the DS—duh.

    Still working on the RW.

  16. Seth,

    “The is no such thing as the perfect church”

    That is what one says when they want to downplay the need for repentance and changes to be made in light of serious offenses committed. Repentance, by the way extends beyond lip services and a Bible study to remind yourselves to rid yourselves of such corruption and abuses.

    So, you have been encouraged—-Now What? And how many years have you been, being encouraged to examine yourselves—-sounds like business as usual to me. What are the CC’s going to do in concrete terms to reconcile with the body of Christ that enables women and children to be abused? What are the CC’s going to do to take the Pastorate off its pedestal and join the body of Christ by giving back to it what was to be shared according to their needs, be it food, shelter, jobs, and protection from the leaven that is practiced so readily and opened in its midst?

    “Perfect church” Like I said, Where is the church beyond the leadership. Because so far, it appears it is treated more like a whore than the bride of Christ.

  17. Seth,

    Be it known that it is not hate that lies in my heart, but rather a thorough disgust towards the hypocrisis which exists within its leadership. Jesus called the leaders of the Jewish people hypocrites because they were blatantly committing all matter of corruption and abuses that they knew better not to do. Then to project these characterological flaws or traits upon those they have betrayed, and yes, hated, for it was not out of love to behave oneself so arrogantly to think for a moment that CC leadership was entitled to take the voice of the CHURCh away from them by silencing them and to ignore these wantom, rampant, and blatant offenses commit among them and the inner circle that they pledged their loyalties.

    That, my friend is what I hate—evil that is cloistered, using the name of the Lord, God and Savior, Jesus.

    Historically speaking, the church of England, under King James was split between those in leadership of the Anglican church and the Puritans. The Bishops of the former was using a text that enabled them to gather riches and power unto themselves. Whereas, the Puritan desire to stop these indulgences and to hold each to an account using all who belonged to the church to benefit from that which the HEAD of the church was founded upon.

    CC leadership has not learned anything at all, but have made the head of their church — Chuck Smith, rather than to rid itself of the Moses model that disabled any accountability towards all of the affairs that concerns the entire body of Christ.

    In essence, they have committed adultery (physical and spiritual) adultery against the bride of Christ. They have gathered unto themselves, riches and power, while completely ignoring those being harmed as a result of these corrupted practices and acceptable if one were to own a company, but is not acceptable in the sight of the Lord. They have not served well at all, but rather have cause its attendees to serve them instead and used the most dispictable of manipulative narcissistic tactics to distract, to ward off, to avoid, and to silence anyone that would speak that which ought not be found of anyone who dares call themselves a pastor or a leader of the church.

    This is a direct affront against He who gave His life for the Church. As King James did, he forced the issue between the body of believers who were not of the bishops and the bishops to come together to provide a better translations of God’s Word and to handle the affairs of the church under his direction and constant perusal of the process taking place.

    So too, must the Moses model be done away with and the leadership needs to come down off their high horse, giving back what they have taken to build up their own kingdom (s), in assets, proprieties, and church plants activities, that are used to build one’s own storehouse, not the storehouse of the Lord for the people at large who are of the faith. This, along with the rampant promotion of the leadership, individually or corporaately, while ignoring, enabling, and practicing those things that misled the people and those seeking, and or who are of the Body of Christ, while silencing those who would expose such things is an abomination.

    And this blogsite is here calling these things into an account and exposing the truth to all who would hear and see the truth. Not to destroy that which is good, but to put away all that has served to hurt and to harm that which God has told us to hold precious and close to our hearts. The entire Body of Christ, to even the least of these.

    It is a call to repent and to do away with that which was not founded upon Christ, Jesus—beginning with the Moses model and returning all assets accumulated as a result of the offerings given by those who are not even considered to be members on their corporate papers.

    Unfortunately, history has shown that the leadership will continue to practice such things while saying such things as “no church is perfect,” yet from the pulpit preach that these things ought not to be even name among those in the church. And in turn, accuse those such as myself as “hating” those in leadership. Hmmm.

    Just as they did the prophets, judges, Jesus, apostles, and true disciples of Christ.

    Smoke and Mirrors.

  18. I find it interesting that in all these answers there is a lack of “Agape” love while exhibiting “fleshly” attitudes. I’ve been with CC since 1970 and had not been a pastor until recently. I’ve known these men for a long time. As in any group of 2 or more, there will be challenges and problems. However, most of these men are Godly men, full of Agape love. However, you and those answering are not, which reflects where their hearts are. Check out Galatians 5 under the “works of the flesh”. “Examine yourselves to see if you are in the Faith” ~ Paul

  19. I’m adding to my last post, which I will be surprised if you post (which will confirm what I wrote, if you don’t add it). I attended this conference and you are completely ignorant of what it is about or what occurred. God will hold you accountable.
    I, in fact, obtain copies of all the speakers and let my congregation listen. There is absolutely NOTHING hidden or secret. It is a conference to encourage Pastors of like-mindedness to continue in teaching the WORD of GOD. Perhaps you are jealous since they did not invite you? There is limited seating and lodging, so the purpose is to encourage the CC Pastors, who labor for Christ. Your hatred for the way the Pastors teach is telling of itself. We are all completely independent. The only things asked are that if you want to use the CC name or be affiliated, is that you are walking in agreement on some doctrinal issues. Not agreeing does not mean you are evil or unbelievers. It is just that we want unity for what someone who comes to a CC will know what and how they will receive the Word of God… i.e. We teach from Gen to Revelation… leaving NOTHING out. That keeps us accountable to God, not men. If I’m wrong, we’ll get to it eventually and I’ll have a lot of explaining to do. I’m sorry to see such bitterness and strife among you… definately not “walking in the Spirit”.

  20. Here’s a bit of trivia on the misuse of “Authority” and “Head” that is frequently taught concerning the CHURCH and also sets a haughty and arrogant attitude towards the female, particularly wives. Leaders—–my foot.

    This attitude then gives a false sense of entitlement that is more than frequently used to be condescending, patronizing, and disrespectful towards females. And it is with this mindset that leads one into using them to feed one’s hedonistic desires claiming it is normal, being a male. It is also this attitude that leads one to hurt their own children.

    It is this attitude that is quite narcissistic that deludes him into believing it his place, his right, his calling to determine for them what is and what is not of benefit in order for him to gather things unto himself, so then he can offer it to his god that is now on the throne of his heart. Leader——-in whose name, pray tell. The Moses model is no different than this. Control and power has nothing to do with loving another person. Particularly when a person is required to remain silence in the midst of being abused, then blamed for the abuse for not submitting to “their” authority.


    1 Corinthians Chapter 11:11-12,16

    Emphasis is on: “However” Verse 11-12 makes the relationship between men and women to be dependent upon one another with God as their head and authority. Like wise in scripture we are told that the husband has exclusive rights to his wife’s body, just as the wife has exclusive right to her husbands body. That would also include his and her affection, attention, honor, respect, and love, as those things emanates from one’s mind, body, and soul. Which then puts a different light on men attitude towards their wives and the sanctity of their marriage. And a hands and eyes off of that which was not yours to have nor was given to you by the Lord.

    So, for those in CC leadership who practice such things and enable them to go on in the congregation —– is it no wonder to you how you have justified these things, by using the Moses model to avoid accountability and to clean up the leaven as Paul as instructed. Not with lip service teaching a Bible study, but actually rocking the boat that would purge out the wolves and get rid of the filth that has contaminated everyone. Have you listened to yourselves as you talk among one another —— and you demand respect???? By what authority, except for your own misguided and grandiose notions wrought by pridie and the self seeking ego.

    What I have written is not new. Paul, in particular has been a spokesmen upon these things, as well as, Peter, James, and John (in 1 John), but it would seem to me that among CC leadership, these things somehow don’t apply.

    “And they will know that we are Christians, by our love.

    Perhaps that needs to be defined as well. For the Moses Model is a piss poor example of the Cross, by any measure one would care to apply it. VIpers, indeed. Truly, it is my prayer that CC and its leadership would repent past the point of lip service, pat on the backs, break-out groups, and yearly Pastor conferences.

    Treat and care for the CHURCH, the bride of Christ, as well as, you would want to be treated and are treated by those who follow and have placed their trust in you, to be their pastor and thier husband and thier father, or brother, in the Lord.

  21. Uriahisaliveandwell said: Response to this statement over on the End Times thread, so not to deviate or get side tracked on this thread.

    Show me one article on CCA where the thread does not get sidetracked. I double-dog dare you 🙂

  22. Mark
    “I’m adding to my last post, which I will be surprised if you post (which will confirm what I wrote, if you don’t add it). I attended this conference and you are completely ignorant of what it is about or what occurred. God will hold you accountable.”

    If it is posted, does it confirm you are wrong?

  23. Listening to Mark’s comments turns my stomach – takes me back – all the emotional drama words, like the threats that ‘God will hold you accountable’. There is a lack of ‘Agape’ love here, while they are mostly ‘Godly’ men full of ‘Agape’ love. Words are used like we may be ‘jealous’, have ‘fleshly attitudes’, have ‘bitterness’ and are definitely not ‘walking in the Spirit’. Sounds like the same old same old attitude that smacks of self righteousness and superiority. I would suggest Mark that you read more here to understand what this site is about. It is ok to think think think, and to question what is taught at CC or anywhere or here . CC questions other Christians’ faiths, way of doing ‘church’, etc. Is CC in the ‘flesh’? “Fleshly” whoaaaaa!!!. Sorry Mark – we are all ‘human’.

  24. “I’m adding to my last post, which I will be surprised if you post (which will confirm what I wrote, if you don’t add it).

    Maude is cool with respectable debate.

  25. Mark
    “That keeps us accountable to God, not men.”

    Men are rebels that want very little or no accountability. That’s the problem with the Moses Model. Men need it.

    What if a policeman had no accountability but God in this life? Would you be afraid of him now even though he will be held accountable later?

  26. Mark said: I attended this conference and you are completely ignorant of what it is about or what occurred. God will hold you accountable.”

    The “God will hold you accountable” is a true statement. However, it seems you are using it in a condescending tone. If you were at the conference, that means you are a senior pastor? Isn’t God going to hold you accountable, too? Why does that need to be said since it is true for all? Are you trying to scare people here?

    I’m sorry to see such bitterness and strife among you… definately not “walking in the Spirit”.

    I don’t know if anybody else is sensing it, but I’m getting a distinct us (pastors) vs them (congregant) tone in Mark’s comments. I wonder how Mark entertains “questions” from his congregants. Mark, it seems that you fail to acknowledge that God has given all of His people equal access to Him. God did not give you any more of a direct line with Him than He gave your congregants and us here. It’s an even playing field.

  27. Some contractors probably want a system without building inspectors or courts.

  28. Julie Anne, yes.

    And bad logic.

  29. Mark @ 19

    Pastors being held accountable to God ‘eventually’ is great and all…but as a Christian man it is safest to protect my family by avoiding your pastors like the plague.

    Not because they are inherently evil being associated with CC…but because there is no accountability for the select few who are evil. The Moses Model was invented by satan.

    Lifelong CC-er until my early 20s when I finally read the bible for myself and ‘came out of her’ while the getting was good.

  30. Mark’s conclusion is very revealing to his own heart when he stated “… definately (sic) not “walking in the Spirit”

    I am continually amazed at the Calvary Chapel folks I am in contact with that maintain others do not have the “Spirit” if they somehow disagree with the Calvary Chapel hierarchy. They use little phrases like that to try and discredit someone; meanwhile elevating themselves over the other person. It appears to me that Uriahisaliveandwell has the spiritual gift of discernment among many other gifts that are apparent to those lurking.

    Here is my opinion of what I see. Calvary Chapel hierarchy absolutely reeks with a spirit of Nicolationism, which I think clearly disqualifies them from being the church of Philadelphia. Now the church of Pergamum held to the teaching of the Nicolations and committed sexual immorality. I really do wonder if the Pergamum church silently condoned and covered up physical and sexual abuses as well?

    I was not at the conference and did not watch or follow any links yet. I would hope and pray that what happened at this conference was; pastors hit their knees repenting for their sins, and their congregations sins before the Lord God Almighty.

  31. post 11 Seth said “The is no such thing as the perfect church and there was much encouragement to examine the short comings in our fellowships.”

    Everyone here knows there is a lot that needs to be examined. Repentance on many pastors part would be a great start. I hope you pastors hit your knees.

    post 13: Grateful said “You ought to know what you are really criticizing.”
    I may be wrong but I would venture Seth already knows all about it and has been watching this blog since the very beginning.

  32. Mark,

    I, in fact, obtain copies of all the speakers and let my congregation listen. There is absolutely NOTHING hidden or secret. It is a conference to encourage Pastors of like-mindedness to continue in teaching the WORD of GOD.”

    First of all, this statement starts out as if you are doing a court testimony. Just becaue everything was made known to your congregation has nothing to do with what has been brought forth on this blogsite or on this thread.

    So what else is new? Business as usual per the Moses model. Of course nothing is hidden. Most of us on this blog have been CCers for a better part of our life. How do you think we come up with the concerns that we have. Two or more witnesses speak volumes.

    Like-mindedness—-that does seem to be a core problem as those things that have led us to warn others while CC leadership ignore them by silencing those who, like many of us have exercised Matthew 18, but was treated with silence or muzzled intimidation, threats, or worse regarding corruptive unbiblical practices and abuses that have been a part and parcel of the Moses model.

    How do you know if you are teaching God’s Word. You certainly are not living it when there are those in leadership who are permitted to commit adultery and/have abused their children. And what about the offerings, why is the only part of the body of Christ that have a vote are those that cannot be held to an account? That’s nice, that you let your congregation to listen to the conference. So what? Did they learn anything, than nothing was done in secret? I don’t recall anyone on this thread suggesting that this was the case.

    “Perhaps you are jealous since they did not invite you? There is limited seating and lodging, so the purpose is to encourage the CC Pastors, who labor for Christ.”

    That is hardly a mature fresponse or a person is supposedly a Pastor speaking to his brothers and sisters who have been greatly offended and having suffered much due to the lack of church discipline, protection, and reconcilation as a result of poor church leadership.

    I wouldn’t have gone even if I was invited. That is, unless I was assured that the entire Moses model was going to be thrashed and the attenders included those from the congregations that are not considered members per Corporate status. But that can be changed, Mark with a bit of waking up and repenting.

    “Your hatred for the way the Pastors teach is telling of itself.”

    Actually, I think there are several great sounding Pastors within CC. So what, when there is hyposcrisy being practiced, it is painful to have to separate out God’s Word from a person who cannot be trusted and that is without a god fearing integrity, and think for one minute that the Moses model is biblical.

    “We are all completely independent. The only things asked are that if you want to use the CC name or be affiliated, is that you are walking in agreement on some doctrinal issues. Not agreeing does not mean you are evil or unbelievers. ”

    You really haven’t spent much time on this blogsite, nor does it appear that you are able to be more objective and less defensive in terms of hearing any criticism and open rebuke regarding offenses we speak of here. Does not sound like you were on the payroll either. So, is this your first conference for senior pastor you’ve attended?

    Not so much what you teach is the issue. Although what you teach is often misrepresented in terms of accommodating the Moses model, I think would qualify as misrepresenting Christ, as well as, misleading others into believing that you do not need to repent or be held to an account. .

    Teaching and being a hypocrite by permitting these offenses to be practiced by those in leadership and among the “congregants” while ignoring those who have been severely harmed, whether in you “individual” “congregation or another Senior Pastor or other person in a leadership role, (whom you meet with at least once a year at the conference), because after all, it is this that “affiliates” you–right? “We are sinners, too—just don’t get it. For those who teach the Word, will be held to a higher account. But to teach these things and not do them—are you serious?” Yet, you say you teach them? Not by your example, as Scripture has told you to do–to be specific, as Jesus and Paul has told you to do.

    “It is just that we want unity for what someone who comes to a CC will know what and how they will receive the Word of God… i.e. We teach from Gen to Revelation… leaving NOTHING out.”

    And what about the rest of caring and loving the CHURCH? I would say there is a huge gap between teaching the Word and then doing it—-particularly since you stand by and permit a pastor—any pastor to go to court, or threaten people with a lawsuit? Rather than to rid the Church and the pulpit of those who would cheat on their wives and abuse their children.

    But hey, you preach the Word, from Genesis through Revelation and the music is nice. While your missionaries raise their own support while Pastors don’t even pay their own way on these trips—CC’s will even let the missionary and his family sleep on the floor and go without refrigeration for a couple a years until they can find a beat up old refrigerator and bedframes that look like those found in jail cells to pass along for them. Yeah, the “giving units” do pay well for a bit of the Word and good music don’t they? Oh, haven’t you heard, CC is not known for charity among the congregation, just that like Hurricane Sandy—(although needed). Hmmm, what’s wrong with that picture. Promote, promote, promote. Sorry, up front and personal experience speaks louder than lip service. Genesis through Revelation—then you should know better than to ignore the concrete needs of the CHURCH that is beyond the inner circle hanging with the Senior Pastor, right?

    Your preach and have great music. Then you collect the offerings to handsomely rewards and to promote yourselves. You do not care for the CHURCH by protecting her. If you did, you would not have come on this site in the manner that you did with a very defensive attitude, speaking out of loyalty to the Moses model, rather than the CHURCH.

    That keeps us accountable to God, not men. If I’m wrong, we’ll get to it eventually and I’ll have a lot of explaining to do. I’m sorry to see such bitterness and strife among you… definately not “walking in the Spirit”.

    Others have responded to this last remark. We are accountable one to another. Have you ever heard of 1Corinthians 5-6:9? Nope, the wheat and tares cannot be used as an excuse to ignore church discipline and keeping leaven out of the church and not permitting one to return to the pastorate when committing adultery, domestic violence, and/or child abuse. In terms of the wheat and tares, Jesus told us that the “servants” were the angels in heaven. But Paul gave specific instruction to deal with “such as these” that commit these things and do not repent. By the way, “I’m sorry, just doesn’t get it.” That is unless, you are a fool and like being deceived and conned into enabling them to just pick up where they left off, once the coast is clear.

    Why doesn’t Calvary Chapel bring in Domestic Violence experts so that the leadership will be better informed and able to recognize and to protect those that wolves prey upon. I believe that they don’t because they know they are guilty of such things and do not want to get rid of the Moses model that enables them to perpetrate these things as well as to keep the numbers of giving units up. Also, how can they possibley hold those to an account within the much larger body of Christ, being guilty of these things, themselves?

    You know, those who like to have control and power over others while putting on the mask of a godly person and garnering your loyalty to helped them to distract and to act as though they are the victim instead? Oh, you don’t know——why not, you are a pastor and it is your business to know—-not just pass it off thinking you are a “good judge of character” when in fact, by just having the Moses model in place attracts and enables such “persons” to weasel their way into the pulpit. Think about it, someone is being abused, oppressed, tyrannized, terrorized, thrown under the bus—and you choose to ignore rather than to hold one of your own within the leadership or even in the “congregation.” In essence, you have now given the abuser carte blanche while teaching the congregation, to ignore it as well , because “we are all sinners.” So the victim is thrown under the bus just by token of speaking the truth.

    And you have the gumption to say on this site—-God will hold you or any other Pastor to an account? That’s it? Unity among the Pastors, sure, but at what cost???????

    To remain silent on these things and to permit them to continue —- nope, that’s not what my Bible teaches. Yeah, I too possess the Holy Spirit and hopefully, God will open your eyes and your heart to that which seems to have blinded you. For the sake of the CHURCH and His namesake.

  33. There once was a critic named Mark
    Who labelled all with whom he differed as in the Spiritual dark
    He claimed recent ordination as a pastor
    Yet his desire to minister to the hurt turned into a disaster
    Now most people who could use some healing see him as a lark

    Hey bud…you just left a facility I gave seven years to from 1995 to 2002 and wonder how easily undown was the “work” you experienced as a “pastor” at the conf. Not the heart of me or my staff for visitors when I was its director for the type of experience we desired and prayed for our guests.

    Hope that in your calling you one day develop a heart for the lost, the hurt, the maligned, the abused…even if they fail to meet your standard of reasonableness and justification.

    And yes, I do know what goes on at the CCSP conferences, their January planning meeting as a whole host of things with CC. While you may be right in your assessment, you are wholly wrong in your attitude and approach. Bro…Jesus was and is about reconciliation…at any cost.

  34. P.s. Use of the term”bro” should be attributed to Mr. Rosales, who ought to look to Marie to see an example of Christ.

  35. Maude @21

    No thank you, I would lose on that one. 🙂

    I also admit that with you coming on board, it has become easier to stay on track with the thread. 🙂

  36. Mark,


    “However, most of these men are Godly men, full of Agape love. ”

    I would imagine that when one is in the midst of the inner circle, there would be, given the Moses model, a groupthink going on—particulary in light of reading your other comments or response to what has been place on this thread and elsewhere.

    Most??????????????????????????? Really, base on what? How they treat you?

  37. Tell me. Is it more worthy to speak the truth or to ignore it.

    Is it more honorable to protect one’s assets or to protect the oppressed?

    Is not Agape Love laying your life down for the sake of the CHURCH, rather
    to hide behind a false system of authority, statute of limitations, man’s court,
    and those that are like-minded who go along with these things.

    While it is good and necessary to enable Pastors to come together to be refreshed, nourished, and encouraged. It is even more imminent that when the leadership know that there are so many who have an aught against them and know that these things are true, that they do not sweep it under the rug by using tactics to descredit them.

    The very worse stumbling block they lay before themselves is this notion they are not accountable to anyone except to God. What more, to think for one second that in doing so, this constitute repentance in the eyes of the Lord, they are terribly in error. It may be convenient and it may enable them to avoid consequences that may come about as a result making an open confession to those offended, however, Paul is quite clear on the purpose for such a process to take place within the church. And by refusing to do this, the leadership of the CC’s is robbing the CHURCH of being able to dwell in unity as well as, to enable healing and reconcilation to take place. As for the offender (s), it does enable them to stop hiding and deceiving themselves and others to think it’s okay to commit such offenses against those who they claimed to love, but in fact secretly hated within their hearts.

    Mark, tell this to your congregation. Since that is where you first went to buffer any fallout that may have come about as a result of truth being spoke on this blogsite. And please try to do this with a far more objective attitude, rather than to dismiss and to demean us by denying that any are not or do not possess the Holy Spirit.

  38. there was never a claim that calvary chapel was the church at Philadelphia. Only a speaking point to emphasis what Jesus is and is not pleased with. There was much encouragment to just keep preaching the Word and to not get entangled with church growth strategies. Of course there are problems in the church, the whole church, not just CC. An entire blog centered on bad mouthing CC is very dis heartening. May the Lord bless and keep each one of you.

  39. I am referring to the recent pastors conference.

  40. “May the Lord bless and keep each one of you”

    According to the bible, if one is in Christ He has and will.

    I guess the “greater” has just blessed the lesser.

  41. Seth said: “there was never a claim that calvary chapel was the church at Philadelphia”

    Well then, they’ve changed their stance. There has been many times CCCM, Chuck Smith and other CC Pastors have claimed that CC was the church of Philadelphia. If anyone wants to do a 15 min google search for transcripts, they will see this is true.

    Unfortunately I’m very tight on time these days. (it’s actually a very good thing) but this is the passage that got me to check in to this blog today
    Luke 11:37 to 12:7
    42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seat in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.

    53 As he went away from there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press him hard and to provoke him to speak about many things, 54 lying in wait for him, to catch him in something he might say.

    2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops.

  42. Ouch. Mark, Luke 11:37 gotta sting.

    Gotta go CCA family. I hope you continue to love, encourage and help one another as you heal from your wounds and grow in your love for Jesus.

    We are so few, and people like Mark could probably amass thousands… but it’s so clear to me who Jesus favors. May you never forget the abused, poor and oppressed. And may you never stop speaking out for those who cannot.

    Peace and amen.

  43. “There was much encouragment to just keep preaching the Word and to not get entangled with church growth strategies. Of course there are problems in the church, the whole church, not just CC. An entire blog centered on bad mouthing CC is very dis heartening. May the Lord bless and keep each one of you.”

    1. Can you imagine how disheartending it is for us who have suffered as a result these “problems” and now to have you come on here to globalize them, thus minimize them, because they are not just happenng in CC.

    2. I heard this same message way back in the 70’s—-so what.

    3. Then to dismss it all by turning the table and acting like the victim and writing it off as a case of bad-mouthing CC.

    A far cry from being the church of Philadelphia, in my 35 years of observation and experience.

    No empathy, whatsoever. Barely a whisper that other problems even exists, yet at the same time spoken as if this is perfectly normal, but not important enough to name these things specifically or offer a plan to address them openly, honestly, sincerely, and biblically.

    And ends it all by once again sloughing their responsibilities off on the Lord. What is that verse? “God bless, be warm and and have a great life.

    Can’t help but reminded when Jesus answered: To the least of these. you have also done unto me.

    Let see now, CS spoke on the church of Sardis (according to their online agenda) and how many spoke on the church of Philadelphia. To? Admonish them not to get entangle with “church growth strategies.” To give a message CS gave just after I became a Christian? How I do hope it was far more that this—–like doing the Word and not just preaching, rather than to scapegoat upon a blogsite for having to failed to do so.

    It would be my prayer that the Father, God would break down the walls that serves this Moses model leadership to avoid any and all consequences that such “problems” within CC. It would be my prayer that this would happen while we are alive on this earth, so that each can then say without hesitation. I have loved the CHURCH and served it faithfully and have not enabled another to harm even a hair on the head of even the least of these. I have spoken up and defend the oppressed, fed the hungry, visited the sick, cared for the wounded, and give a drink to the thirsty those placed under my care, and not once turned the other way or practiced such things that some would slough off and minimize as being “typical” for the church everywhere.

    Really, adultery, domestic violence and child abuse is now considered normal—as far as churches go. Now that’s a sad state of affairs within CC, indeed.

  44. Thank you Kathy, stay the course.

  45. Kathy,

    Thank you Kathy. Its good to hear things are looking up and keeping you occupied.

    May the Lord use your words of rebuke migtily to wake up those who choose to minimize, ignore, and enable these wicked and treacherous deeds done among them.

    And thanks for the encouragement. Your words are refreshing when spending a season with those whom choose to turn their hearts away in the face of much pain and suffering.

  46. Had caught the tale end of Mike MacIntosh radio program.

    Not knowing what the rest of the study was upon, I’m left a bit encouraged, yet cautious, once again in thinking or at least, wanting to think that it was covered in the part I did not hear.

    Mike was calling his congregation to an account regarding what he referred as wicked, evil and treacherous sin and harm done to others. He also acknowledged that CC leadership also needed to repent. He then led those whose hearts were convicted into a prayer of repentance and asking our Lord to forgive the individual for committing these things. He asked that all remembrance of these wrongs done be removed.

    But he, there was no request of the Lord made to assist them in making right the harm done to those affected by the abuse and betrayals perpetrated against their victims. That troubles me greatly for the following reasons:

    1. It does not let the offender of the hook of bearing the fruit of this repentance by publicly apologizing to those publicly wronged.

    2. It does not set the record straight regarding all the lies told to malign and to discredit their victims.

    3) It does not give them an excuse to continue being with their affair partner, nor to remain in an adulterous marriage, as long as the spouse has been waiting for them to repent by bearing the fruits of repentance which includes putting away the adulterous partner they have entangled themselves with.

    4) It does not provide a vehicle to enable a process of reconciliation including proof of such repentance. God may know the heart, but we have been abused would be foolish to buy into that which we have heard and seen so many times the apologies of such person, only to watch them act out one more time.

    5) It puts children and spouses in danger without a long term plan to earn broken trust and violated souls together again.

    6) A prayer of repentance is a good start, but without evidence of such that includes making restitution to those who were harmed, first with an apology before the church, then, doing all that is possible, no matter the costs, enabling the offended to be able to sit among those whom the offender did knowing they have been vindicated of all wrong doings.

    Without this, this prayer of repentance may be of little consequence and only done do to a guilty conscious, but not truly repentance which would provoke one to also make the amends necessary to restored the relationship that was violated, betrayed, and thrown under the bus.

    In other words, the heart wasn’t changed at all and there remains no more concern for anyone other than themselves, as usual. And to only take it as far as a prayer without doing as outlined in the above, it still enables one from being held to an accountable, maintain the false image they have sown at the cost of having their victim (s) continue to bear the brunt of the shame they placed upon them.

    This reminds me of the 12 step way—however, it is not God’s way at all. For we are told to leave our gifts and sacrifices at the altar and make things right with those we have harmed, and to as much possible restore the things that were taken as a result of robbing, cheating, and bearing a false witness against he or she that only sought to bring these things into the light so that forgiveness could be received by the person who is truely repentant. Also, to warn others in the process by making them known to the congregation as a warning and a caution to all in the body of Christ, so that it would be strengthen and empowered by the Holy Spirit to walk circumspectively among one another and not giving excuse or an occasion to commit such things that brings disgrace upon all that is holy and righteous in His sight.

    My concern is: these who have been led in this type of prayer of repentance will not make the amends due to those they preyed upon, but will take license to say to them instead that the offended must now forgive as if it never occurred—which is totally unscriptural. This by the way is an all too familiar scenario for the brothers who cheat on their wives, by the way. At minimum, this is taking advantage and making mockery of God’s grace and the Cross. But unless the churh leadership speak against this ruse, then many will think they have reonciled with the Lord, when in fact Paul warns us: that no adulterer and other sexually immoral person, including child molestors will inherit the kingdom of God.

    So I would think long and hard what it means to repent and whether or not it is just lip service doen in the moment or out of a true heartfelt godly sorrow. Your furits will bear the evidence, whether is of the first type of conviction or that of a changed heart.

    So, if I can—I will try to track down this study to see what else was said by MM.

  47. Correction:

    “Without this, this prayer of repentance may be of little consequence and only done to EASE a guilty conscious, but not truly repentance which would provoke one to also make the amends necessary to restored the relationship that was violated, betrayed, and thrown under the bus.

    In essence, it only serves the offender agenda of being able to continue to fellowship and even to resume of take on roles of leadership. This IS NOT TRUE REPENTANCE, BUT JUST ANOTHER SMOKESCREEN that those who have been violated know only too well.

  48. For those who would say, this public apology and making amends to restore what the injured party has lost would be too embarassing or humiliating to do this.

    Think about what it took to cover these things us and what the victim suffered while the church stood behind the offender, swallowing their lies and deceptive, manipulative, and wicked sadistic and cruel lies to distract and to make themselves to be above reproach while raising their hands up in the midst of the congregation. Think about the tears poured out upon the altar before our Lord due to the pain, and the terror exacted upon them. Think about all the consequences their victim (s) bored, that belonged to them instead. Then think about how not requiring such a one to make these amends is revictimizing the victim and encouraging others to believe, a simple prayer of repentance will restore one’s fellowship with the Lord.

    Perhaps for some of offenses this may be true, in part, but unless this person is practically falling over and making all efforts to make amends and restoring what was lost while actively earning the trust that was violated, then I would say they have no insight whatsoever regarding the depth and breadth of what the harm they brought upon another. Andit is just another ploy to appear to be what they have yet to obtain. That is, in right standing before the Lord, the congregation, and in their own hearts.

  49. Mark,
    You said way above “I, in fact, obtain copies of all the speakers and let my congregation listen.”

    I don’t want to start anything, gotta get to work, but your unconscious choice of wording and phrasing can tell us a lot about your brand of leadership and ecclesiology.

    You obtain FOR them (as if they can’t be trusted to get it themselves, they need to come THRU you)… For YOUR congregation… And LET them listen.

    Do you also provide running commentary/interpretaation of what they should think about what YOU ALLOW them to hear?

    You are a pastor, a servant (bond slave) of Jesus to serve HIS congregation. THEY are not YOURS and you are in no position to allow them or disallow them to hear anything. You are not in Moses’ stead (or aaron or hur for that matter)
    You are ONE of the sheep, serving the sheep, not ruling them.
    You are not the holy spirit to control what they hear and how they hear it or what they should think about it.

    To paraphrase a famous political line “mr mark, I know moses, I know jesus, and I know the holy spirit, and you are none of them”

    If you want to pastor GOD’S Congrgation, serve them, feed them God’s Word, but don’t ever think you are OVER them to filter their access to info or tell them how to interpret it.

    Get over yourself and get into Jesus

  50. Mark,

    In the scripture, you cited @ #18 comment. I am surprise you would even dare make reference this to this in light of the blatant tactics used by CC’s to silence those who have throughout the years been victimized, betrayed, and thrown under the bus by the CC leadership. Or are you just calling us liars and trying to get those who come to this site to ignore what we all know to be true.

    At best this is a projection. At worse it is a manipulative tactic to distract from being held to an account and bearing a false witness against these who have been harmed. And you say, you have attended CC since the 70’s? And more recently became a pastor?

    So in the misuse and a misapplication of this scripture, is it your aim to unify the body, or to just gain votes for the leadership?

    Perhaps, it is just a case of using the Moses model to enable you and others to close off your ears, and to shut your eyes, and the heart of your soul, to see the realities of such wrong done. Or maybe, it’s the leadership policy of having one another’s back regardless of the corruption and abusive that have been practiced or perpetrated or enabled by those within their ranks, or eaven within the inner circle, and certainly among its congregants–the giving units.

    Whatever it may be, nothing that you have shared has directly addressed or offered a plan to those who have spoken the truth to enable us to be heard and to gain the support to work together in a process that would deal with those who committed such things that MM even described as being evil and wicked, to enable repentance, amends//restitution, healing and reconciliation to take place.

    So, in light of this, was it your intention to share what you did to cry victim or to just mudding the waters to nuetralize others into thinking, we are just devisive and not filled with the Holy Spirit?

    Which by way, it is these types of comments that you have made that have provoked those who have been harmed to seek out blogsites created by others who have or continue to be harmed by CC’s leadership.

    As for the brothers and sisters that I am familiar with due to the walls put up by the Leadership, using some of the very comments that you have made, and much worse, we have chosen to continue to follow Matthew 18. Now we bring it to the church worldwide as CC’s are international to be heard and to warn, if nothing else to let others know that they are not crazy and yes, this is a commom way that CC leadership handles church matters involving the safety and welfare of their flock.

    So please take that mirror and shine it back onto you and the CC leadership. And please keep in mind the cracks that you are viewing in the mirror are not that which emanate from our hearts but, in truth are of your own.

    Like I shared earlier it disgusts me that those in the leadership would use the things of God to ward off and to distract from repenting and make right the wrong they have committed and permitted to go on while making those harmed, a scapegoat, of what appears to me to be a very narcissistic system,. Then act as though they are or have been victimized instead.

    We all know the truth of these things—-that is the most dispictable part of all of this. We know right from wrong. None of us are without this awareness. Yet CC’s leadership remain silent, or using demeaning statements, and, worse, concerning those abused to descredit them. That is the epitome of oppressing God’s children placed under His covering by way of the Cross.

    So when I hear MM say one thing and I hear Mark say quite something else—–. I pray the former has far more meat to it than what Mark presented–for the sake of us all.

    To the least of these, in particular Alex and His brothers, family, and friends, and least of all, for myself. I shared these things with a clear conscious and a right heart before the Lord, and as a witness before and on behalf of my brothers and sisters who have been abused and want nothing else more than to see repentance, healing, and reconciliation to come about.

  51. Mark said

    “I’m adding to my last post, which I will be surprised if you post (which will confirm what I wrote, if you don’t add it).”

    Seems like the above quote is a manipulation tactic to force his comment through but it was always going to be allowed.

    If he knew anything about this blog he would know that his posts were not going to be moderated. His posts are examples of why this blog exists.

    He should take Grateful’s #13 advise.

  52. Q said:

    If he knew anything about this blog he would know that his posts were not going to be moderated. His posts are examples of why this blog exists.


    Ok, now hold just a sec, there, Q. Of course his post was Mauderated. Who do you think hit “approve” when his first post came in?

    Carry on.

  53. by moderation I meant blocked.

    but yeah big brother is watching. 🙂

  54. This is a link to a photograph taken of Chuck Smith and Dinesh D’Sousa on 9/17/2012.

    Now, we all know that Mr. D’ Sousa reported on his own website and to also was covered by the media to being engaged to one woman (who by the way, I thought was a much younger version of his wife), while already married. .

    He then went on to make it all alright by saying that he and his wife had been separated (for the last 2 years) when he accepted his appointed with King’s College. Upon discovery of his affair with this woman, either he was asked to resign or he was dismissed.

    The point in posting this is to bring home the point that CC founding pastor, sets the example of tolerating those in leadership roles and among its congregants (Mr and Mrs attending CC San Diego per media report, for 10 years) to commit adultery without church discipline, then supporting them publicly.


    And we wonder why CC has maintained a stubborn rebellious unrepentent heart towards those who have been harmed and commit spiritual abuse by ignoring Pauls instruction, “Not even eat with such a one who calls himself a brother and practicing sexual immorality.

    By the way it was Mr. D’Sousa who filed for a divorce in order to marry this girl.

    Clearly ‘against scripture, yet held onto a celebrity status and appearance of endorsement from CS and others who did not cancel his speaking engagements, but rather resceduled them per media reports. I wonder how CC came along side of Mrs. D”Sousa (his biblical wife) to support her during this time of her husband’s unfaithfulness towards her.

    1) C.S clearly ignore Paul’s instruction concern those being unfaithful to their wives.
    2) C.S. clealy has a habit of tolerating such behaviors among his own leadership ranks.
    3) As goes the leaders, so goes the church.
    4) Adultery is clearly swept aside and woman are thoroughly treated disrespectfully and with less consideration than it takes to pat one another on the back as if it’s a god given right to do.
    5) But hey, it’s cool–just go before the Lord and repent and continue in the adultery. It’s all legal, according to man’s court.
    6) It’s about the court thing–if you can get away with it there, then it must be okay biblically, right—beep, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG
    7) For the leadership, you just keep preaching God’s Word–and continue with the lip service about who you love and care about. After all, it all about what appears to be true, not what is true.

    Nicolaitans, I think someone on this thread brought this to mind.


    And somehow, due to this man being endorsed by those in leadership, in spite of his unfaithfulness, we were supposed to override this and lend creditability to his documentary which was also funded by other “christian” men who were kept unnamed (my understanding, they all lived in Southern California)…

    CS did a similar thing when he intefered with the church discipline process David Hocking was under when he admitted to his marital unfaithfulness.

    Don Stewart—you can look up the information on your own, then do the math.

    That’s just for starters—–but, hey “we are all sinners” and one sin is the same as the rest. Not according to Scripture it is not. Nor is it okay to treat it as if it is and so frivously at that.

    What this tells me is that those in leadership overall really do not possess the insight, nor the wisdom to grasp the actual harm and destruction that is brought upon the wife, the child, or any other when such spiritual abuse that inherently includes cheating, lying, betraying, manipulating, and so many other things that litterly breaks, no, shatters the heart and soul of those so carelessly thrown under the bus and treated with silence or threatened further harm for daring to step up and to let their voices be heard.

    Therefore, it’s not about the CHURCH, at all—now is it?

  55. Ah, the CCSPC…

    You know, that OTHER Blog that ‘used-to-be-CC-critical’ recently asked it’s Community Members for their definition of ‘Spiritual Abuse’. I’m being ‘shunned’ over there for the time being for running askew of the Blogmeister Kommisar’s opinions, but if I had my shot I’d have to say…

    The Moses Model of Church leadership would be a good definition of Spiritual abuse on a local church wide basis. Yuppers !! And it’s funny how much some are perhaps subconsciously affected by it and function by it’s presuppositions of Pastoral Authority (even when they only ‘pastor’ a blog on the Net)

    ** Warning: Please retract any feet or hands outside the vehicle for safety… Wouldn’t want to step on any toes out there **

    Another funny thing is that ‘Chief Shepherd’ or senior Pastor (or any of it’s possible permutated equivalents) is only used ONCE in the NT… and it’s of Jesus Christ in 1 Peter 5 where Peter warns the Elders (plural here) of the Church (singular here… get the point?) not to Lord it over God’s Flock (not their flock, but God’s and Jesus’ as the Chief Shepherd or Archepoimen).

    There are no Senior Pastors or Head Honchos, one man, over the local church envisioned, described or taught in the NT.

    CCSPC is like an Amway Distributorship Meeting where you come to get hyped up to ‘sell, sell, sell’ and the Big Whigs ‘upstream’ come to bolster the Small Whigs ‘downstream’ to grow their ‘ministries’ by getting as many as they possibly can under their ‘Pastoral Authority’

    CC’s, like most other churches nowadays, are really just ‘Franchise Businesses’ under ‘Spiritual’ CEO’s with God (or Moses) complexes.

  56. Shunning for shining the light is a form of abuse, it’s usually the first step of abuse.

    Step 1. Church leadership withdraws affection.
    Step 2. Suppression.

    …….then other steps

    It’s like a playbook or something.

    Pretty soon you just leave.

  57. Ruth,

    I copied your comment made on “Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia: Good, Bad or Ugly? to also post on the current blogroll, as I think it is timely in what you shared, and didn’t want it to get buried as comments come in on a regular frequency.

    Ruth says:
    June 11, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    I read through this blog several years ago because of an abuse that occurred with my husband by a C.C. pastor in 2004. It was in regard to a stupid choice and sin on my husband’s part. It was not handled well at all. We left and went to another C.C. where the pastor and elders all welcomed, comforted and nurtured us; as it should be. Years later, after repentance, restoration and a growth in our walks with Jesus, things are well. We still attend the same Calvary Chapel. The pastor there is wonderful. He is a great pastor/teacher that loves his sheep! By the way, the other C.C. has gone Emergent! The best thing to have ever happened with us was to get out of there when we did; albeit a difficult experience.

    When I read this story the first thing that comes to my mind is how this man ever became a pastor in the first place. And, how is it he is still the pastor at the same church? It baffles my mind. The Scripture speaks quite clearly to the qualifications of a pastor. 1 Timothy 3 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    Curious, what do you think of the Moses model and how it may accommodates abuse and corruption?

  58. the moses model creates ‘another mediator’ between God, Jesus, and man. it is therefore anti-Christian because it seeks to put man back under other men instead of leading them simply to Jesus.

  59. Mike,

    Your comments are solid in what you share.

    Although CC does not openly teach that the SP is between the congregation and the Lord, they certainly do transmit that message in other ways, don’t they. Whenever I hear or read about someone being described or describing a particular role in the church that claims to have a special or red line to our Lord—my spiritual attennas go up. This is not the same as having a gift that gives one the ability to have insight, but rather this is the misuse of a calling that uses authority to avoid accountability, while placing oneself above others who also possess the same abilities to discern and to interpret scripture, in order to be empowered to gain control to take on this false image of being a type of Moses.

    Thinking back to my earlier days with CC Cypress, I don’t ever recall Jack Stevens (deceased) ever putting himself above anyone. Didn’t know it then, but in retrospect, I think he was a mixed between Calvin and Evangelical. He was an excellent teacher of the scriptures, really going beyond the milk, getting to the meat, going way deep, using materials that I doubt is the normal run of the mill stuff they used in the CCBC. As for his character and his assessibility—-some had issues with him, but I think as it turned out, as time went by, it was their issue instead. As for me, he lived and modeled the character of Christ. Except when his diabetes would act up it would challenge him, as well as the rest of us. I miss him. Of the very few men, I would call Pastor—he would fit the bill. Never did though, just called him, Jack. Yes, he modeled what was he taught. I think that because his life exemplified that of a Godly man—this rubbed with some who wanted to bend the Word more to fit their particular road they wanted to travel upon.

    Even so, if I had known about the Moses model, I would have searched out another church, outside of CC. Too many parallels to the RCC and other close relatives. As the scriptures has told us and you just reminded us, there is only ONE mediator. And no one can take His place nor should we give another this PLACE. For He alone is worthy.

    And the pastor is just one member of the body. Nothing more and nothing less.

  60. Postscript on Ruth’s comment.

    The last sentence, I should have offset it with a line. The question was to get her opinion on this. 🙂

  61. Ruth,

    Another question:

    When this situation came about concerning your husband, was he in a leadership role of any kind?

  62. Scripture tells us, that if one knows the truth and does not bear it when called upon to do, it is sin and they will bear the guilt of such.

    I think that this can also be applied when God has told that if we remain silent and not go to the person who is or have commited wrong doing, then we also bear the consequence of not having done so. Scripture tells us by not doing so, the blood of this wrong doer will be upon us. Can you imagine standing before the Lord and not having spoken on behalf of one who you knew has been abused?

    Now some will, as usual, look for the loopholes in not speaking forth the truth by saying, “I was never called as a witness,” by man’s court. Sorry, this just does not fly, because this exhortation was given to those who lived in a theocracy, meaning the government was not separated from the religious community. It was all one. And this is why Paul told us in 1 Corinthians 5-6 that we are to have church discipline and we are to judge these matters, and we are to speak up and we are to exercise judgment to clean out the leaven in the church and we are to always, but always do this keeping in mind the ministry of reconcilation, but also “not even eat with such a one, if they continue in their sin.”

    Yet those that Alex’s has named that knew about what was going on with he and his brothers have remained silent. Chuck Smith, as well as, others have continue to permit individuals to continue congregating and even leading in spite of their adultererous choices. If I am correct, I believe one of the photos of this conference was of Alex’s stepfather. In my mind, I’m thinking, why in the world would a bunch of men who call themselves “annointed” and pastors not used this time to bring forth the truth of what they know and to gather themselves and exercise church discipline accordingly?

    Leviticus, chapter 5:1

    5 ‘If a person sins in hearing the utterance of an oath, and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter—if he does not tell it, he bears guilt.

    If the conferences was being held by true believing Pastors, then it also was gathering in the name of the Lord. And to knowingly permit one word of the Lord to be spoken or to bow their knee before the Lord, without cleaning out the leaven and to make right was has been done against, even the least of these, it reminds me of God telling us essentially,” don’t bother.” Your gifts and sacrifices are like dung to Him and the Holy Spirit has gone out from among you, as you have disregarded the least of mine, that I set before you to love and to protect.

    Radio Program with an unrepentant adulterer (s) who had filed for a divorce to marry someone else. Conferences held knowing one has his own stepson in court, because of reporting abuse and not being able to silence him or his brothers. Supporting, scheduling, and promoting adulterers while leaving the wives of such bear the shame and the silence of CC. And what about those who are single and are with children?

    There is more than one way to commit adultery just as there is more than one way to grieve the Holy Spirit. When one knows to do right and does not, that is grieving the Holy Spirit and is sin. When one fails to provide support in concrete terms and is able to do so and does not, that is also grieving the Holy Spirit and sin, just as much as having a conference that does not address the corruption and sin that is in the camp is a far more direct way then lip service done in a message in Revelation, and then exhort to examine one’s conscience.

    That is just white washing things and singing Kum Bai Ya, going away from the mirror, foolishly deceiving yourselves and one another, you are now able to conquer the dragon and to spread the good news.

    When in truth, you totally ignored the elephant in the room, that you all keep tripping over and pretending it is not there. Thus, whatever it was that you thought you gain by this conference, you actually only fed off of the Moses model that lifted you up to a height you were never given, but you are surely fallen upon.

    Just because you refused to repent and make right the wrongs you have done and have failed to be witness to the truth of what we all know the Bible tells us should not be allowed within the body of Christ—particularly those who are in leadership.

  63. what do you think about CC pastors saying they know nothing of and or have no definition of “moses model”? are they being less than honest?

  64. Mike


    1) They are illiterate?
    2) They thought they were reading scripture?
    3) They didn’t read that page?
    4) They keep tripping on it, but don’t know why?
    5) Too much smoke?
    6) They thought it was called, Chuck Smith?
    7) Total Denial—too much kool-aide?
    8) Still in the grooming process per apprentice status?
    9) Codependent?
    10) Straight out smoke and mirrors?
    11) They didn’t do the research?
    12) Ask me no questions, I will tell you no lies—-says the Papa Bear to the young lion. ?
    13) Monkey see, monkey does? See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil—?
    14) “have no definition” smokescreen?
    15) “have no definition” sounds like the mafia or jailhouse talk to me.
    16) “have no definition” therefore, it does not exist? And there is nothing to discuss?
    17) In too deep, to get out now?
    18) Don’t know the difference between a church and a company?
    19) Honestly, don’t see how Moses can be compared with the corporate structure (thinking of the real Moses, that is—-not the one CS adopted and then marketed)?
    20) “Oh, that’s what they call this—–and all the time I thought it was just a joke?

    Scripture: (NKJV) Luke

    14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—

    In the Distinctives, Chuck writes about be a really good businessman. He says, something to effect that it’s easy for him to make money but not so easy to pastor (?????).

    I took this mean—all you have to do is have an angle (product that everyone wants).

    So, if this pastor didn’t know, did you refer him to this site to learn more?

  65. Uriah,
    Somehow I missed this thread. Hope it’s not too late…

    Killing me softly

    I heard he preached the good book,
    I heard he had a style
    And so I came to see him,
    To listen for a while
    And there he was this old guy,
    A stranger to my eyes
    Thumping my pain with his bible
    dissing my life with his words
    Killing me softly with doctrine
    Killing me softly with his smile
    judging my whole life with his words
    Killing me right there in his church.

    I felt flushed with conviction,
    embarrassed with the crowd
    I felt he found my e mails,
    And read each one out loud
    I prayed that he would finish,
    But he just kept right on

    Thumping my pain with his bible
    dissing my life with his words
    Killing me softly with doctrine
    Killing me softly with his smile
    judging my whole life with his words
    Killing me right there in his church.

    He grinned as if he knew me,
    In all my dark despair
    And then he walked right by me,
    As if I wasn’t there
    And he just kept on smiling,
    singing loud and strong
    Thumping my pain with his blessing
    dissing my life with his song
    Killing me softly with doctrine
    Killing me softly with his smile
    judging my whole life with his words
    Killing me right there in his church.

  66. Mike,

    One other thought:

    I had attended a small CC at one time and asked to see their bulletin. I then asked them where their statement of beliefs were. The pastor who was very friendly and opened with me showed me a few brief statements about worshipping the Lord and not being a denomination. I then explain to him that I was looking for something along the lines of the basic essentials of Christianity. He looked at me with a puzzled face, so I gave him one on the inerrancy of scripture. He then pointed out, in smaller fonts, the website where I could read up on the “Distinctives.” I told him that I would not consider that to be a statement of beliefs. His response: that’s what CC go by.

    So my thought is this: if a system is narcissistically structured, then everything is going to point back to the founder. It is possible that given the insulation (that is, no accountability, except to God) that is inherent in the Moses model, that men actually rely so much on a personality that they cannot see the tree from the forest. They get the Word, but ever so subtly, it has twist on it that doesn’t quite make sin as serious as it is and salvation, once saved, covers them, no matter what lifestyle you are living.

    At least, in the pulpit this water down version is being put out there to bring people to hear them. For instance, how many times have you heard that if you believe you are saved? But in truth, the scriptures tell us we must repent. Check it out—the first recorded words of Jesus, And then later, how many times that He tells to walk in obedience and to follow the commandments. And what does Paul tells us in being able to overcome and to walk in obedience?

    What better enticement is there for a man to know that he can control his wife and children and not be held to an account. And if he plays his cards right, he can also be like Chuck Smith or any of the other Pastors that have made it. Of course, initially not knowing that this is what the Moses model is about, because everything is couched into biblical terms instead. And if you are not hearing or seeing anything else, then it must be the real deal—right?

    It’s like growing up in a dyfunctional family with one person ruling the roost. No new information is able to come in, but no information permitted to go out either.

    You are isolated and insulated from hearing anything that would challenge or expose the sickness that is causing the family members alot of pain and suffering. But the system and those in it, keeps everything button down as they have adopted a way of learned helplessness and become dependent upon the one voice that speaks, feels, and thinks for them. They have learned or come to believe everything outside of that system or family is dangerous and will cause them harm. They don’t know anything better and think all families are like this. So, without knowing it, they will gravitate to other groups that are similar to them. Anyone that dares to question or to let in the light, they quickly find themselves being sanctioned. The person who is in charged is literally addicted to power and control. He is the center of attention and everything else spins off of him. Thus he has this grandiose sense of entitlement and demands everyone feeds into it and mirrors the false image he has contrived in his own mind in order to get along in a much larger society where he must find away to build his kingdom. At the same time, his son’s will see that this is the way to go and thus follow after him. Not realizing that they have been socialized or brainwashed to emmulate and to imitate in order to be accepted, get along, and to be just like dear old dad.

    Which is precisely what the Moses model is based upon. That is, a belief that men who make it into the inner circle and take on leadership role are entitled to reign over others without being held to an account. The Moses model is a ready set structure that appeals to the pride and egos of those who have yet received salvation. Then when they receive the gospel, they are given a water down version that enables them to continue with one foot in hell and the other hearing the Word, but believing that their voice alone constitutes the CHURCH.

    And though it is called the Moses model, and some have thus, described CC as having a “Moses” or “god” complex,—I would not be surprise to hear some pastors respond to your question as if you were the one out to lunch instead. What they do not realize, the have only taken what they have been breeded upon to believe and now have learned to put a God spin on it to validate this very narcissistica way of operating within the home and in the church.

    Proverbs (NKJV)

    14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
    But its end is the way of death.

    Men who lead others in this way using this mindset, will use truth, but with a spin on it, all the while doing things that would give an appearance of being honest and caring. What they are doing is what they have learned to do and think they are just doing what “men” do in order to control and to be a success. When it comes to being a pastor, this is why we do not lay hands on anyone who has not the vote (of the entire congregation) and confidence and experience and maturity that can discern God’s word from the corruptible and abusive way of mankind.

    This is why Paul was so adament in telling us to hold one another to an account, to get rid of the leaven among us, to hold fast to the Word and to walk in obedience, following after Christ and not giving way to the devil or anyone else that would tempt or run a game on us.

    Think about it, what did Satan say to Eve?

    And what does a good salesman say to sell their product?

    “All you have to do is believe?”

    Just like Satan did with Jesus in the desert. He quoted part of scripture—the part that was meant to tickle Jesus ears and appeal to his fleshly desires.

    For even the demons believed.

    Yes, we should count the cost—beginning at the Cross that Jesus was crucified upon.

    No greater love is there than when a man laid down His life for another which by the way include the lives of women and children (Red Flag: *not just your buddies in the inner circl.and not just those who are considered “worthy” to congregate within the inner courts). *Note: significant of the Moses model.

    Not speaking the truth in order to avoid accountability or not stepping up to the plate when you know of wrong doing being done or has been done, against any of God’s children is not love—it’s only protecting your assets and the company’s image——-it has NOTHING to do with God and the love He has for you, me,or anyone else.

    It is a lie, straight from the pit. It thrives on oppression and a misuse of the gifts that God has given to equip the saints to care after one another while bearing witness to the world the truth of Who He is and what He has done and what He will do when He returns. To Judge and to establish His Kingdom alone.


  67. Gary,

    Too late? I hardly think so.

    About that other site—–it reminds of the lions den.

    Liked your rendition. And ever so glad to know that in spite of CC, you heard the Word and your heart was convicted, putting away those things done in the flesh and have now decided to follow Jesus and none other—-right (?).

    Funny how a smile will draw us in.
    Funny how the truth will set us free.
    Funny how both can be used to deceive us as well.
    Amazing is His grace that will use both to bring us to the Cross that is set before us to follow after Him, if we really repent. believe, and obey. Not man, but Him, and He alone, no matter the cost.

  68. “The theme: Revelation 3 (by Chuck Smith). Other speakers were assigned verses 7-11.”

    Assigned? Quite a move of the Holy Spirit (sarcasm)

    How many men do you need teach Revelation 3:11 to other Pastors?

  69. Last in moderation…

    I was thinking about why Pastors would have to come all the way from another coast to teach on a verse that was also assigned to other Pastors.

    Also, many of us are in businesses and attend conferences.
    As was mentioned above, why talk about a verse in Revelation to one another? How does this build up another Pastor, and motivate him with his flock?
    Does anyone else think this was done as a kind of spite against the comments recently about the end times? How is this verse going to personally encourage another Pastor, or personally do a work in their own heart to serve their church?

    I understand Franklin Graham. It is no secret the connection CC has to BG organization, and also to Josh McDowell from a purely business point of view. And I also understand the draw and idolization of someone who runs a megachurch. It just all seems so contrived.

  70. Interesting-Michael just posted a thread on Spiritual Abuse on PhxP

  71. Hey Hannah -)

    Welcome back—-missed you.

  72. Uriah

    I was wondering what I can say at this point that hasn’t already been said.
    So I took off some time from reading.

    Although you always have food for thought and seem to be keeping this blog going….

  73. Uriah-

    After everything we have gone through, people that we know well (2 that work with me) are now attending our old church. If what happened to us doesn’t matter to them (and we employ them) it says much about how impressive mega churches are and how little really has to do with what they are teaching, how they are shepherding, etc. If they give out $ to those in need and the needy are benefitting, our abuse really has no relevance in their lives. So that is one reason why at some point you have to just leave them to attend a church that entertains them, has a Starbucks that feeds them, and children’s ministry that looks like Disneyland. It is all about the show, and the flesh being fed.

  74. Ex: You are a widow. You have no $ to make a funeral for your husband. The church gives you $. Your car breaks down. You are active in ministry. They give you $ for a new car. Does anything else really matter other than your needs being met?
    Does it matter that a family was harmed? If you consider a suit due to slandering your name without a cause, do you really want to be part of a lawsuit you will never win?

    So at some point you realize you are not going to change anything other than your perception, and how you are going to react to it all. You will never sway another.Those attending and benefitting, could care less about you. It is an “all about me” world, inside and outside the church. It is not a family. And many will gladly contribute to the lifestyle of the Pastor because they believe he deserves it. A no win situation other than taking care of yourself and your own family. Look at how long I am talking about it. they have forgotten about me years ago…and anyone else who has left. I think in the end there are a whole lot of people who are not true believers that we are wasting out time thinking and talking about.

  75. BTW Gary- That killing me softly–outstanding….

    But proves it is not worth it to give them any access to do that kind of harm to us, or we perpetuate the abuse, after they have long forgotten about us. We don’t matter-in the least–to even now give us a second thought.

  76. One more before I go.

    One of those 2 I mentioned. I hired her because I knew her lifestyle and bad choices and I believed the Lord was leading me to be a light for her. I brought her to the small–very small church I started attending and disciple her over lunch. She has children. She attended a few weeks and now is attending our old megachurch because it impressed her and it does everyone who visits. They see the bookstore, the restaurant, the coffee house, the Disney type environment for the kids. You just realize that this is what is important to people when looking for a church. They want to be part of this–what they believe is “SUCCESS”. They feel good there-they can be anonymous there. It is one stop shopping.
    So it has been disheartening for me. But I have to believe that many have had this same experience with this church. This person asked me if they would have to leave their heathen lifestyle of partying and se+ outside of marriage. I told them that this is not pleasing to the Lord and that they will not want this lifestyle as a believer. She never returned to my church. People want to feel good, laugh with the Pastor. I still have to trust God but am disappointed.

  77. Right.

  78. Maude or anyone,

    Can someone tell me what happened to Alex over on pp, did he step away or get kicked out. Went over there and do not see him. And furthermore more importantly, how is he, anyone know, I miss him!!

  79. Hannah,

    The point you made regarding rogue churches that tickle the ear and ignores corruption and abuses that takes place within leadership and its congregants are correct, in my opinion. At the same time, we also can draw upon scripture to see that all throughout the Bible, various individuals were given the task to speak out on these things. And most of these were being severely mistreated, even unto death for doing so. Jesus, is one such example.

    So, does that mean we should draw back because we, ourselves may not realize any significant direct benefits from just one person “getting it?” Or reaping the benefits of being vindicated and recompense for the wrongs done to us?

    No, not at all. But not every person who has suffered such, is called to continue to reach back or out towards others who are being caught up or have been taken unaware by things that will eventually have very destructive consequences—such as finding out, that one is not saved after all.

    Each person who does maintain the course to speak to the these must understand that nothing may change in such a way that they will receive what it is that would help with their own healing process. At the same time, realize that although there may not be direct benefit, in the way our hearts longs to see, like, “I was wrong, and yes, we need to hold that one to an account,” the Holy Spirit can carry our words to convict the heart while also alerting and warning others to consider just what they are doing and how they going about in doing it. Perhaps, and most likely not reaching the very person or leadership that offended, but rather reaching beyond to those that we don’t know but have been standing from afar listening and contemplating their own situation and their own pretense that also may be putting on or observing in others and church leaders.

    If nothing else, we can be faithful and not become weary in well doing, trusting, the Holy Spirit to provoke others to listen more closely, to what is being stated and to understand that not all leaders are what they seem to be and that if they are not living the Bible, then it would stand to reason, they are most likely not preaching it correctly either.

    Now whether, CC’s choose to pay heed, that is entirely upon them to do. But I can also say this with all that is within me, knowing God’s Word. They will be severely dealt with for having heard what we brought out into the light, and then failed to have act upon it, meaning having to repent and make right the wrongs that they did commit. It is a great error on the part of the leadership to put themselves in a position that locks out and silences that part of the body that has been harmed.

    But back to whether, or not we ought to or not, continue to speak to make these things known, because of not seeing any direct attempts to make the amends desired to bring closure and reconciliation with them. If a person is relying on these amends to come about, then they are still under bondage to the abuser (s). But if they speaking out knowing that there may not be a direct personal benefit in the way of accountability, repentance, and reconcilation, then their healing is not dependent upon the abusive person’s action or inaction.

    In a large way, one has to search within themselves to determine why it is important to continue on, in part to hold one to an account and to see changes made to heal the relationship, but also to promote and to prompt an change in the church leadership that stood by and did nothing, other than to enable the offender to reap the benefits of what church fellowhip brings while leaving you under the bus. If it is to solely to obtain this end, then I think one does essentially become in bondage to the very thing that they hate. That is, corruption and spiritual abuse (which involves the same type of things found in domestic violence).

    But if a person can come to a place within their own perspective, not expecting any benefit, but rather using what they have experienced to warn, to exhort, and to make others aware to examine themselves and what they are going along with in order to gain that which is not theirs to have, or paying utterance and following after that which has nothing to do with our Lord, then I think in a large way, this person who would certainly welcome the hand of the church leadership to do what they should have done long ago, but also realizes that their ability, their suffering and pain, their experience and their own walk can be used for an even greater purpose——–apart from this desire to see the wrong doer brought before the church and church discipline applied.

    I think also, that God will use this and for some, what we wanted so much will one day be realized. I think that when we put the former first, it strengthens our resolve not to be dragged back into bondage by our expectation that the perpetrator will repent. And I think that as we do this, oftentimes, our sufferings and losses becomes realized to have been used to evoke within us a greater love for that which we were commission to do among the leadership and church, at large. Even, like John, the Baptist had to do in living in the desert and not enjoying the common fellowship that enjoyed among what we have become familiar with in the way of understanding, what “church” activities entails.

    Not to say anyone should give up in their request to gain recognition and satisfaction of such wrongs done to and against them. But to say that, when we make this the chief aim, we can become bough down in thinking that our healing is dependent upon that person’s or system’s cooperation in stepping up to the plate. This, I think is where our faith and our trust comes into play. That is, we do all that we can do to bring it into the light, but as we do, we continue to rebuild our lives, taking care or precaution to protect ourselves in whatever manner that is biblically sound to do (for we do not want to fall into sin ourselves or become like the transgressor, either), while knowing that there are things within ourselves, that God is doing that, although is not immediatly seen or perhaps, realized to know “the way, the truth, and the Light even better.

    I mean, think about it—–in the midst of the crucible, have you not found yourself being challenged and stretched in your faith, your perspective on things, and the expectations that you hold towards people and the world about you? I know I have.

    But if we are in this just because we want to see justice done and cause the walls to fall down upon those who have treated us so badly and even as enemies, then I think we will or can become disallusioned and even our walk with the Lord can be compromised. And in a large part, meaning to say this with much compassion and sensitivity, are we not forgetting an even greater calling upon our own lives?

    Ought we not be reminded of the weeping prophet, Jeremiah—-not one convert! And of the Apostles, not all paid heed and even among them, their were those who sought to undo them. Paul was constantly in argument with the church of Jerusalem, not withstanding those converts and those who thought they were converted in the seven churches and then finally, in Rome, where all had forsaken him. Jesus, sweet Jesus was abandoned and even thought to be crazy by his own family, his hometown, those that admitted that He taught like no other, yet held to the teachings of Moses, the prophets, etc,. not once denying it, but illuminating and bringing for the into the light the things that had been hidden due to the darkness of their own souls.

    And does scripture tell us, Hannah that it is in these times of our own abandonment by those whom we also believe to be after our best interest proved otherwise, that we can more clearly identify with the suffering and persecution of Jesus, and all who had gone before him and all that followed after Him. Of course it does. Just like it tells us, to not be weary in well doing.

    So for some, it’s better to move forward and not to be concerned with those who have hardened their hearts from hearing the cries of those who have been victimized. But for others, as one must determine for themselves, as the Holy Spirit leads them to do—to continue to reach out to warn and to shed light upon the corruption and abuses that does, that has, and that will take place among the leaders and the people who are or pretends to be the CHURCH.

    I don’t know if any of this makes sense to the reader. Hannah, has brought some excellent points to the table and I think it is most important to consider them. At the same time, I think it’s important to know and to note, that the enemy will use the lack of response, the silence, and what seems to be ineffective, to make us think that not one heart is not being reached. For I know with cetainty that the Holy Spirit can use our sufferings to do what God wants to do within the body of Christ among those who would seemingly have hardened their hearts against what they know perfectly well what they have done.

    In this, I continue to speak forth and encourage others to do as well. For no greater love is there than when one lays down their life for another. For me, it about the CHURCH, although I remain, like the saints that have gone before me hidden and trusting in God’s all things necessary to survive.

    If even one person, one spouse, one child will have been spared the atrocities of such that has been committed due to the failure of the church to hold such leaders and their congregants to an account and to rid themselves of such leaven, then I know, that for such a times as this, He has also brought to this blogsite to speak into the lives and hearts of others.

    Again, I say to the CC leadership, to repent, and rid yourself of the Moses model to enable you to truly love and to protect everyone from being violated by using spiritual abuse, domestic violence, and child abuse to take what was not theirs to have in the first place. The essence of one’s very soul that was only yours to love, protect, and to lead to Christ, and Christ alone.

    Not to Lord over or to build your own kingdom while silencing the least of these to hold to an account that person (s) that caused much harm.

  80. #80 ~ WOW
    Thank you Uriah for taking the time to write that. I am so encouraged. I needed to hear that. Uriah…is alive and well.

  81. Laurie,

    Just keep praying for me and I will remain so—steadfast, until He decides to take me home.

  82. Olivia,
    If no one answers maybe Alex will answer. That’s what I’m hoping for.

    “And now- coming to the small screen… it’s The Return Of Alex! *cyber cheering*

  83. My grandmother use to say: “if horses were wishes, how we would ride.”

    All things in good time, and in due season. Until then, Alex, wherever you are and whatever you are doing, I pray that our Lord will instill within you a heartfelt hug from all of us whom loves and sorely misses your presence among us on this blog.

    Did I say we miss you?

    Olivia, LOL——-the silent treatment—–maybe, but I wouldn’t push it—-besides is that what our participation is based upon? Not taking anyone to task, but just saying, it is good to let him know that we miss him, but to draw back on our own particpation, I think that might put too much pressure upon him.

    I know, he’s a big boy and can hold his own. But even we don’t know where this warrior goes when he falls down. Hugs all around, for we all, including me, have our own way that we must follow when the world caves in upon us and our faith and what we believe is not put through the sifter.

    Sure do miss you though, Alex.

  84. Correction: Next to the last paragraph, last sentence:

    “what we believe is put through the sifter.”

  85. An interesting article on protecting the reputation of the church while protecting the perpetrator and burying the victim:


  86. Uriah-

    Some of us have husbands and families that suffer because of what we believe is our calling to expose abuse. It can take years away from them. Time spent on blogs can be time spent with our kids or our spouse. I think you are failing to realize this as you do not have either of these. We only have a short time with our kids before they leave the home. I wasted years on my “mission”. Many days spent at a computer when I could have been playing with them. Those years will never be available again. I think the computer can be an addiction. How much time do you spend on it a day? I am only saying this because I read some judgement in your response to me. You must put hours a day into this blog alone. If one is single with no spouse or kids to consider..much different situation.
    God will take care of it all. He doesn’t need us. He uses us as tools but ultimately as you can’t save anyone, you can’t change anyone. Only God can change the heart.
    Maybe I have been at this for over 7 years and it takes time to realize this.
    God needs us to be mothers and wives first. That is our first calling.
    We have to make sure we go where HE calls us and not take it upon ourselves to create a ministry that he doesn’t approve.

  87. Olivia and Gary,
    Its my understanding that Alex chose to step away and be ‘voluntarily’ banned/moderated from posting on the PxP blog for the ‘good of the community. Which is PxP speak for the blogmeister kommisar was going to ‘involuntarily’ do so if Alex didn’t.

    “Tolerance”, true diversity of opinion, and respectful disagreements are truly at a premium over there. Especially when michael doesn’t want to admit when he’s stepped over a line or has been wrong.

    Its his blog and he’s free to do so, but those who choose to participate should be aware and prepared.

    I miss Alex in the discussions here too. Don’t always agree with his takes, but he always has an intelligent, well thought out and respectful point of view and tone.

  88. mike

    I don’t think this is Alex’s blog anymore. He has said so numerous times.

    I understand the challenges about the OT vs NT Jesus/God. I have been there myself. I don’t see the same God, but it is not my place to question how God dealt with us before and after Jesus Christ came to earth. I spent an entire summer reading minor and major Prophets. And the judgement of God. I could not relate this to the gospel Jesus. For this reason it took me years to accept who Jesus was and that He was God. Except for His criticism of the religious leaders(brood of vipers), and the overturning of the tables, I did not see the God of the OT.

    My understanding is this…the OT revealed man’s attempt to be right with God based on the Law He gave us, that we could not and never follow. This reveals to us our inability to be right with God based on our own performance/merit. When Grace is revealed through Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the yoke of the law. Why He killed innocent children and complete groups of people…for Him to decide. I had been told that God knew the children would repeat the sins of the parents…well, how could they do otherwise without divine intervention/knowledge? Not for me to understand again.

    I know that many mysteries hidden will be revealed in heaven. I have to rest with this. God only gave us so much we can figure out. Or else we would be God and He wouldn’t.

    Maybe some can come on here and share what the Lord has shown them on this subject. I know there are many who believe that Paul was not chosen by Jesus and for that reason reject Christianity.

  89. Mike,
    I was there posting when Alex stopped blogging. He was continually insulting and off topic. He was a different person there than he was here. He was chasing people away. I suspect there were posts that never went public. The blogmeister kommisar gave him a lot more grace for many more days than I would have.

    I feel really bad for Alex. I can’t imagine what I would do if this happened to me. It’s terrible! I pray that God is very close to him and ministers His love as only God can.

  90. Hannah,

    I am so sorry if that is the impression that I gave you.

    Let me say this clear. For those who led by the Spirit to reach out to the church to make known the corruption and abuses that does and taken place for the reasons that I listed, then this is what they ought to do.

    For those who feels that they must move on for whatever reasons, then this is what they need to do.

    Hannah, likewise could it be that in your need to move away from this blog, you may be also attempting sway others to do likewise. If you feel that you need to take the time you had been spending blogging and use it for other responsibilites and personal issues, then by all means, do so. No one would ever fault you for this. Least of all me.

    When I shared what I did, it was to balance things out as some people including myself may not share the same conviction as you do. Thus whether one stays or go, I would that in either event, it is because what you believe you are being led to do—

    Once, again—I am truly sorry for having offended you. It was not intention to do so.

  91. On the Old Testament and New Testament I can see God’s plan using a scarlet thread to bind the two together. Very early on, we are told that without a blood sacrifice their cannot be redemption. Now before coming to know the Lord, Jesus, I would read the Old Testament and only see horrible things being done to people by God, and others. I would see the wretchedness of mankind. But after becoming a Christian, my entire perspective changed and I came to understand just how serious sin is to God. I would also see what he was doing in using the people that He called His own as a witness to the world, whether, or not they were walking in obedience to Him. I would see the mightiness of His love, grace, justice, and long patience that He had, but most of all I saw what a consuming fire He could be, yet also a merciful God that had a plan and that nothing was going to hinder Him from seeing that through. I also saw a that God was not one to be fooled with or to mock, in the Old Testament, nor in the New Testament. Jesus was sent to fulfilled the law—-shedding His blood to make the perfect blood sacrifice that was required to pay the debt of man’s sins, for those who repented from their sins and acknowledged that God is God and He is their Lord.

    I learned that from the Old Testament and New Testament that when people choose to live in rebellion then their are consequences and what relationship they thought they had with the Lord, was broken not because of God, but because they doubted what God told them and believed they could bend the principles, concepts, rules, and laws that God has ordained and God would be kool with this because after all, they were His Chosen People–whether they lived as Jews, or as a Christian.

    Mike and Gary


  92. LOL at myself: seem to be developing a habit of typing “their” for there.

    I really do know the difference 🙂

  93. Their, their, Uriah. It’ll be fine.
    My religion encrusted the bible in meaningless tradition and gilded the gospel enough to obscure it in a pool of hot shame. What little I knew of the old testament was heavily filtered through hundreds of years of false piety and dispensed by flawed and sometimes sick unregenerate clergy.

    Now I see that the old testament = sin is serious and in the new testament God took drastic measures to deal with sin. He did this to reveal the depth of His love and to receive His due glory.

  94. Gary,

    You are too funny—hilarious hehehahheheheheheheheheahahahah

    I see God dealing with sin throughout the history of mankind. You know, God has placed His laws upon our hearts, but being people who also was given free will, we chose sin, instead of Him—Old Testament and New Testament, alike.

    Yeah, know about the pool of hot shame and legalism. There is a difference between toxic guilt and healthy guilt—-the first means to condemn and the second means to convict. Which is the good news when we are true Christians. Because, having the Holy Spirit, we now are able to walk away from those things that hinders us from laying down our lives (in the flesh) and now following after Him (being given the Holy Spirit) and walking in obedience. The more that we walk in the spirit the less the things of the flesh will appeal to us.

    I think of it this way. There is a four way stop and people in their vehicles are coming from all directions with some purpose in mind to get to where they are going. There are also pedestrians approaching or waiting to cross the street to continue in their way as well.

    Everyone will approach that four way stop with a certain attitude in having to abide by certains rules to enable others, as well as themselves to make it through the intersection to get to the other side and continue on in their journey. But some will not care about the safety of another and another will not care if they find a way to get across before it is their turn. Rules are a hindrance to this person. Others, they are necessary, but rather cumbersome. Yet for a few, they don’t even notice that these are rules, but rather something that is good and right, and just to enable everyone to accomplish what they have set out to do for that day.

    If a person decides to jump the “right of way,” there might be another that becomes quite angry, and beeps his/her horn to show their displeasure. The law breaker may have returned the insult by using a few swear words, feeling justified in defending themselves, never once considering that he by offended the first by violating the “right of way.” And so, the four way stop becomes congested in the midst of this turmoil due to the law that was set into place to protect the safety and welfare of all. And before you know it, everyone has an opinion on this and no one is getting through the four ways stop, except for one person. The one that just went about their business, knowing the law was good and thus did not trip on having to wait or to get caught up in the turmoil or debate of one’s right to ignore it or to keep it.

    For this one was free of the law because it was imprinted upon their heart and they paid attention to it and was able to walk in obedience without feeling they were being held back to forced to keep it. Spiritually speaking, it is because I am no longer compelled by the flesh to break the law that I feel that I am also forced to follow it. But instead, I see that the ways of the Lord is good and has set me free to not even know that the law is there, simply because when I am able to walk in the spirit, the natural man cannot rule over me and condemn me, as I am no longer under bondage but free to follow and to walk in obedience and bearing the fruits of such accordingly, knowing also, that if I began to wander off, the Holy Spirit will prick my conscience to remind me of the great love that God has for me and price that He paid in enabling me walk more closely with Him. The longer I am on this earth, the more I would like to be at home with my Lord. At the same time, like Paul has also written, as long as I am here, it is due to God having something for me to do, to learn , and to complete. And this is what, if anything what I war against, within my own flesh. For to be in the world, but not of it does present it own challenges and quite frankly, if not for the Holy Spirit within me, my flesh would prefer to just shut down the shop and call it a day. For my heart is constantly broken at what I see and what I have also been subjected to and it causes me much pain and anguish to be so aware of the suffering and pain of mankind devouring one another, particularly in the church, or at least what we call the church.

    And for me, that is the best of all things, therefore, I am ever so mindful in being as sensitive as possible in the leading of the Holy Spirit. For me, it is no longer and issue of legalism, but rather, am I walking in obedience, following after Christ and trusting in Him.

    Anyway, don’t know exactly how I got onto all that, Gary. Oh, it was the “legalis” button, I think.

    But ever so appreciate your sense of humor and the transparency of your own heart. 🙂

  95. CCA is still Alex’s blog. His e-mail is still posted on the contact page. If/when something changes, you will be notified.

  96. What you call toxic guilt I see as shame. Shame is more about who we are than something we have done. It’s a fiery dart. It’s compound interest on who we are before applying God’s forgiveness and it still gets us if we’re not paying attention or walking in the spirit. It’s a cell we put ourselves in when we don’t confess our sin and the enemy attacks us. It wasn’t until I learned who I am in Christ that I would get duped into shame. The way I learned who I am in Christ was by immersing myself in God’s word over a long period of time. The first chapter of Ephesians is our adoption papers. When I’m feeling shame I go there and to First John.

    I see what you’re saying- a police officer wrote the law on the driver’s heart. 😉 I’m odd I’m flawed but I love God.

  97. Gary said, “Now I see that the old testament = sin is serious and in the new testament God took drastic measures to deal with sin. He did this to reveal the depth of His love and to receive His due glory.”

    Great statement, brother
    Amazing Grace is only made more amazing by the depths of our Sin and the extent God was willing, in the Cross of Christ, to redeem us.
    -mike (aka. MIC)

  98. Uriah “Hannah, likewise could it be that in your need to move away from this blog, you may be also attempting sway others to do likewise”

    You are incorrect as to your judgement of my motives.

    I wish someone would have told me what I was saying…yes, my husband did but I thought I had a cause greater than my family so I disregarded his advice. I am hoping other women are not doing this because now that my kids are grown and leaving the nest, I am sorry I spent time that could be theirs sitting in front of a computer attempting to change anyone’s mind about what they believed. In the end, only God can do this. And Uriah, I am sure you would agree that you have much more time to post threads that take me 20 minutes to read each one!

  99. Gary,

    Exactly—shame based, rather being convicted in our hearts that we need to get rid of something in order to take on something so much better.

    Police Officer: some curse them and some see them as a blessing.

    Police Officer: God is is author and finisher of our faith. He is pure love, but he is also just and cannot be compromised. Nor will He negotiate the terms. Follow Him, or be lost forever.

  100. Shame is a liar; a ravenous thief.
    He sets you on fire then feeds on your grief.

  101. Hannah

    “You are incorrect as to your judgement of my motives.”

    Was more a question in light of the comments you pertaining your own situation then projecting that out upon others who participate here.

    Do we really need to go back and forth on this, Hannah. You don’t need to defend yourself if you choose to leave, but please in doing so, don’t discourages from staying if they so choose to do as well. If you would like to leave and would like us to know why, that is all good, well, and fine. In this, for those who may also being seeing things from you perspective, they may also feel the freedom to leave as well, and that is okay too. But for those, like myself that do not choose to leave, that needs to be honored as well.

    It doesn’t seem as though you are very happy about this sight or with the fact that Alex has not been present in the sense that he is not commenting. What I hear you saying and I could be wrong on this is, this blog should be shut down as God will do the work in the heart of people and we therefore, need to tend to our own affairs, whatever they may be, single, married, or otherwise. I also hear that you feel that it is a waste of time to attempt to reach out to people who could care less about those they have harmed and to those who prefer the type of churches that you described. Some will agree with you, Hannah. And that is their choice to do so. I don’t and that is my choice to do so as well.

    But to go back and forth on this is fruitless. Alex is not here and some of us do have the time to blog. If you do not want to read through what I have to share, simply skip over it. I’m a little confused however, because after you came back on after being absence for a time, you noted that my comments was providing food for thought.

    But again, if it is eating through your time, yet you feel you can serve the Lord better elsewhere, then by all means do so. As I have said and will state again, my response to what you share was not as a criticism to what you were saying, but rather a balance to add to what you had shared.

    If you do decide to go—go in peace knowing we each are called to do what our conscience is telling us we need to do, I hope as a result of what we trust is being led by the Spirit of the Lord.

  102. Editing:

    Was more a question in light of the comments you made pertaining to your own situation, then projecting that out upon others who participate here.

    Do we really need to go back and forth on this, Hannah. You don’t need to defend yourself if you choose to leave. But please in doing so, don’t discourage others from staying if they so feel led to do so.

  103. Hannah,
    You don’t have to leave the hospital cuz other patients aren’t meeting your needs. The Lord will heal your wounds whether you stay or go but this is a place to talk things out. Now where’s that nurse?

  104. Gary and Mike

    Great statements all around—Our God is an Awesome God—isn’t He.


    Right on—God instead of condemning us, the Holy Spirit convicts, then as we turn away from the wrong choices we made from what was in our heart to do, He picks us up, dust us off, cleans us up, and enables us to follow Him, step by step along the way. And like the lame man, tells us to pick up our mats and Walk—-and in the Way, not looking back.

    I am so encouraged by the comments that people are sharing today—all food for thoughts and a reminder for me to rejoice in the Lord even in the midst of the darkness that is used to try to trip me up.

  105. Uriah

    You didn’t address this: Your comment: Uriah “Hannah, likewise could it be that in your need to move away from this blog, you may be also attempting sway others to do likewise”.

    You made an assessment of my post and my attempting to sway others away from it.

    Where did you draw that conclusion?

    Gary- Who said others are not meeting my needs? Is that your understanding of what I wrote?

  106. I’m opening “one eye” for a few minutes…

    Been doing a lot of reading and considering things in the broader Church sense.

    I am beginning to see how destructive Calvary Chapel’s End Time teaching has been. Many on here have pointed out many problems with their theology, and believe me, they do have a theology. Since so many of their practices are borderline gnostic, and they spend so much time focusing peoples attention on the return of Christ, I am more repulsed by it as I see how it has undermined the health of our country. In time, we will see how this movement fits into the broader evangelical demise. It’s so sad to see such arrogance in the top leadership; unwilling to have their own people hold them accountable. Some things are just diabolic. I hope God visits CCCM and grants humble repentance for their follies and blatant sin.

    Off to another parallel universe…

  107. Hannah,
    Yes. It looked like you were weighing the pros and cons of being (or posting) on this blog.

    Wide awake,
    Taken by itself CC’s end time surfology isn’t that bad. In and of itself. But combine it -or anything- with the Moses model and you find yourself riding a wave of immaturity and self centeredness all the way to a mirror.

  108. My June 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm post is still in moderation.

    Is that because it appears to be addressed directly towards Alex, who no longer posts here but unknown if he reads it or not?

    Even if it was directed only to Alex, he is still the owner of the blog. Why would it be inappropriate to address the owner of the blog?

    It did include Alex but the context also applies to the people that both agreed with him and those who did not. He was not the only one who questions the Old and New Testament God (on both CCA and PxP blogs).

    If it is in moderation due to the implication of it addressing Alex, can I re-word the topic, not including his name, and re-post it?

    Why is my way of posting not appropriate?

    I do not post often and do not intend to do it more often, but I have thoughts of my own just like many here do. Why are mine looked at as not having publishing rights?

  109. I like the surfology term. You can do a lot of surfing for $350 million dollars.

    I know it is referred to as the Moses Model…I prefer to call it the Authoritarian Model. I like Moses, and CC has perverted his character.

    The “60’s didn’t do much for us, and the brand of Christianity that CC developed is so intellectually shallow, it’s like drinking watered down green tea.

  110. Gary and Wide Awake

    Authoritarian and Surfology, watered down green tea, intellectually challenge, I mean shallow hidden in a moseology that is perverted to create a brand that affiliates only by name to make millions off of the giving units that are suckered into drinking the kool aide by using God’s name and selling a package, hard to resist.. All without having to hold one another accountable, but able to keep them entertained and feeling as though they are being servants in good standing, useful and a part of something much bigger than themselves;, building and planting new churches, and gaining more converts along the way, a movement towards that which is yet to be determined. For Christ has not come and there is still time to repent.

    Go down Moses, down into Egypt land.
    Tell old Pharoah, let my people go.
    Yup, there was only one Moses, and none came after him.
    He was not permitted to enter into the promise land
    because he mispresented God, when the people cried out for water and
    he tap the rock out of anger.

    And Joshua was given the staff to lead the people into the promise land and over the river of Jordan. And he told the people, you can worship and go where you will (paraphrasing),

    But as for me an my house (metaphorically or physically), we will serve the Lord.

  111. A drop of water in the ocean:

    Sorry, I have been out all day and that is the reason why the delay in moderating. I will not be approving your first comment. It is off-topic, it puts down the owner of this blog and is not appropriate for this forum. If you have anything to add to the current discussion, that would be great.


  112. This BLOG really has gone down the drain…

  113. Gary,

    “Taken by itself CC’s end time surfology isn’t that bad. In and of itself. But combine it -or anything- with the Moses model and you find yourself riding a wave of immaturity and self centeredness all the way to a mirror.”

    Likely totally—agree to the max. Nice

  114. doug,
    ur 113, not very kind. how ’bout helping us by entering into discussion. how would you respond to discussion of either the CCSPS or the Moses Model?

    looking forward to your input.

  115. Maude at June 14, 2013 at 8:02 pm says: “… I will not be approving your first comment. It puts down the owner of this blog and is not appropriate for this forum……”

    Are you really serious?

    The comment you will not approve of, is not in any of the slightest ways putting down the owner of this blog! Where in the world did you reach that assumption from?

    By asking if it was in moderation because of implication of it addressing Alex, I was referring to my mentioning of his name which seems to be a bit of a taboo. The context had absolutely nothing in it to suggest negativity towards him.

    Due to this (the fact that my way of speaking is not being done in an understandable manner) I will no longer attempt to express my opinion ever again about Biblical understanding on this blog.

  116. Hey Laurie,

    Read the comment you made over on the Jon Courson article and thought is would also be helpful to post it here as well.

    Laurie says:

    June 14, 2013 at 8:26 pm .

    Jon Courson ordained Mike Whitman to be a pastor after Mike completed Jon’s school for pastors (aka: School of Discipleship). So when I initially went to Jon about Mike, at the suggestion of another pastor, Jon didn’t hesitate to ignore me. I personally believe that Jon Courson has no respect for women, and so how dare I find fault with someone he ordained as a pastor. There is absolutely no accountability with the Moses Model pastors like Jon Courson or the men he ordains as pastors, even if they be convicts or criminals or thieves. Who will hold these men accountable? Lord, come soon!

  117. A drop of water said:

    Are you really serious?

    Yes, I am completely serious.

  118. “ur 113, not very kind. how ’bout helping us by entering into discussion. how would you respond to discussion of either the CCSPS or the Moses Model?”

    I can’t say anything that I haven’t said dozens of times in the past 17 years and written repeatedly about…

  119. @June 9, 2013 at 10:10 pm, Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    “Still working on the RW.”

    Sorry to be so cryptic, Uriah. 🙂

    RW = Rick Warren

  120. I have one comment and then I’m done.

    I will not ever set my foot into another church until I have found one that provide church discipline and protection for their women and children, an adequate benevolence fund in their church budget, a budget that is decided on by the churche representing men and women, a missionary fund that does not cover the pastors’s expenses, but goes directly to the missionaries, adequate knowledge of domestic violence and child abuse beyond call the police and let them settle it, for each could have been circumvented long before it became as bad as it did, a clear process for exposing those who commit sexual immorality, directly and indirectly through porn or otherwise (without excuses) with a policy that clearly states that one who does commit adultery, fornication, homosexuality, and child sexual abuse will not be permitted in any leadership role, and in particular the pulpit. Don’t even try to tell me that God’s word has exempted any of these things to take place. You are a liar and as best, illiterate.

    And as long as any man thinks he is entitled to rule over any other person in such a way that leaves that person unable to grow and to develop into all that “God” wants them to be, to serve him instead, I have one thing to say to you—-Get behind me Satan, the Lord rebukes you and all those you have led to believe otherwise.


  121. Hello,

    This has been an interesting thread to say the least. I am a long time CC Pastor, and unfortunately…I have to agree with most of you. I have seen abuse, and the lack of Biblical response to dealing with it. My fellow leaders of the congregation that God has allowed us to lead have been having many “meetings” on dealing with this crisis within CC as a whole. I too attended the conference in CA, and I am not sure how much life CC really has. I do see a split coming; just cant see a way around it. We are praying…praying that God’s will, and not mine, not Chucks, or any other humans is done.

  122. Ezra,

    Would not have commented except I did not want your comment to get lost in the recent posts that Alex placed on his blog and that has generated quite a stream of comments coming in.

    It is good to hear that these things are taking place, for in part it is answering my prayers and desire for CC to repent and to clean up the leaven that has taken over the pulpit and left out the voice of men and women in the congregation.

    It is my prayer that for those that are like minded as you have expressed that you all are filled mightily by the Holy Spirit to do more than what CC has always done, yet if you follow scripture, it’s real simple——when reading Paul’s instruction concerning sexual immorality and those who would practice corrupting the Word in order to accommodate this ” hands off” and let God deal with it. 1Corinthians 5:5-6:9. Prayer is always good, but there comes a time to pick up the sword and deal with the leaven, beginning in the pulpit, then leadership, ministries, and in the body of Christ ( which also needs to be made members) in order stop quenching the Holy Spirit that is waitng for you to exercise the boldness and the faith within you.

    One place to start would to stand by Alex and his brothers, vocally, and physically by supporting him in bringing about that which he has attempted to do, biblically. To make this known to all other CC’s —-and to sanction the unbiblical responses that is often given one who has complained of being abused and betrayed. Silence, threats, and man’s court.

    I get the impression that when you say “God’s will” you are still being passive, thereby, giving yourselves an excuse to remain irresponsible and not participatory in actively doing what Paul has clearly told the entire church to do, particularly among those called to be shepherds, among wolves. I hope not—–Crisis is just the tip of the iceberg—you know this, as well, I do.

    So will you and those that are like minded take a stand, or will you hide under the radar and “just see” what happened? That, my friend, is not trusting in the Lord at all, now is it? It is just more of the CC way of doing things, now isn’t it.


  123. Thanks, Uriah,
    We heartily agree with your response to Ezra.
    So good to hear from you, shining light in a dark organisation.

    Your words have been a tremendous encouragement to my family.
    We continue to pray for you.

    Ezra, Thanks for sharing. You’re on the starting block.

  124. Amen Ezra!

    Many of us who see the same things you describe are waiting and hoping here on the sidelines for the Lord to cleanse the house of cc and to see it’s former glory restored as it was in the beginning…

    If possible?!?

  125. CC Pastors:

    Adultery, and other forms of sexual immorality committed against one’s spouse is not an isolated event and does not occur due to being “male.” It is God has stated, it is an act of violence of the worse kind committed against the woman He gave you as your wife, and an abomination against Him. It is an offense against one’s own body, as well as, the body of Christ at large. It is wicked, evil, and must be held to an account and eradicated out of the church and most certainly not be tolerated, excused, or given concession to those in leadership or pastoring role. It is a reflection of narcissism of the worse kind, It is spiritual abuse and destroyes the soul while claiming to love that which was not given to have under any condition. The very heart position that holds to these vain imaginations is that which feeds the ego and pride while seeking to control and overpower the soul of another. It is the seed that sows the many forms of domestic violence and child abuse behind closed doors and wipes it face and then declares: “I have done no wrong.” I have repented, therefore, I will ————do anything except bear the fruits of repentances that are deserved given to the one who have been abused and discredited in the wake of such treachery.


    So for those who are praying, here is an excellent resources to now get up off your knees and become active in reflecting just how sincere you are knowing this is long, long overdue.

  126. Uriah is alive and well!! Good “WORD”, no one does you better than you!!!

    Ezra, do something, every day another possible victim, what are you people waiting for a open invitation from God, He already gave you one. But please know that we really appreciate you speaking up for us in this little way, just hope you don’t think that is enough, not by a LONGGGGG SHOT.

    Doug, I so agree with you.

  127. OK, I have one thing to say here and then I’m done. The CC movement suffers from a leadership problem. It certainly has people who don’t belong in ministry, but more than that, it has a leadership style that is inappopriate for church. Commonsense tells us or ought to at least, that a church runs best when it’s governed by a group. This creates safety and balance. The early church, according to Acts and the Epistles, were led by a plurality of elders. This practice grew out of Judaism and seemed to be very practical. Episcopacy came later. One-person rule is not biblical. To take the example of Moses from the Old Testament is silly. Only a lack of theological training could have enabled the founders of the movement to re-create that kind of leadership in the church. It’s absurd. If teh Calvatry Chapel movemnt can swap one-person rule for a plurality of elders, they will save the organization from its demise and eventually resolve its other issues.

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