Aug 212012

Calvary Chapel's pulling out the big guns against Riverside County and the Wine Vintner's Association by threatening a Federal Lawsuit according to reports.

It looks like Calvary Chapel Bible Fellowship (a.k.a. “The Barn”) and Pastor Clark Van Wick are ready to beat back the heathens in Temecula’s Wine Country. According to a Press Release by Advocates for Faith and Freedom,  Calvary Chapel is preparing a Federal Lawsuit to challenge Riverside County’s ban on all churches in the designated Wine Country area.

The dust-up pits Calvary Chapel and area Christians against the local Governments, the Wine Country Vintner’s Association and others in the area who support the current Land Use restrictions for the designated zone. At issue is that CC “The Barn”…while grandfathered in for their existing location…wants to do an expansion and those additions are prohibited under the current statutes. Calvary Chapel, Wick and their supporters appeal to religious freedom and invoke Chick-fil-A in their recent public relations battle…and according to the article:

“Hundreds of area Christians and church members are expected to attend the planning commission hearing. As a sign of thanks, the church will serve Chick-fil-A to all those who attend during the lunchtime break.”

Calvary Chapel, who is being assisted and apparently represented by the Advocates for Faith and Freedom, while invoking Chick-fil-A, seeks to frame the controversy as an attack on religious freedom rather than free speech and views the Riverside County zoning restriction as a violation of the church’s right to assemble.

Supporters of the current restrictions via zoning laws in the designated Wine Country area frame the issue as economic and not religious (excerpt from a local news blog Temecula City Beat):

“The reason the county had proposed disallowing churches and other non-wine-related institutes is plain and simply a matter of a demand on land. It’s way more expensive to start a vineyard, produce wine and sell it than it is it to build a nonprofit, bottom line.”

A hearing is set for Wednesday, August 22, 2012 beginning at 9:00 am at Temecula City Hall.

My thoughts: Calvary Chapel has no problem playing hard-ball when it suits them. This is evidenced by Chuck Smith suing Mike Kessler over millions of dollars in the CSN Radio debacle. Calvary Chapel has no problem suing each other…as evidenced by Jeff Smith suing Chuck Smith. In the recent Calvary Chapel Idaho Molestation Lawsuits, Chuck Smith had no problem lying about having “no control, no responsibility, no authority” in the greater Calvary Chapel Movement so as to avoid liability for Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and CCOF in those suits (now Calvary Chapel “Association”) only to learn that Chuck Smith made all the changes to the “Movement” recently and knowing the long history of the obvious…Chuck Smith exercises control, responsibility and authority, if it is something he wants done in the Movement/Association/Denomination.

This example of Calvary Chapel “The Barn” putting on the brass knuckles with Riverside County and the Vintners will be framed as Paul the Apostle asserting his rights as a Roman citizen and as a battle for religious freedom etc. Got it. If a family of child molestation victims who were introduced to their pedophile abuser through Calvary Chapel connections files a lawsuit against the holy Calvary Chapel…it’s “an attack from the devil!” and “greedy lawyers and families looking for a payday!” etc.

In this specific instance, I think CC has a legit beef with Riverside County…and ironically the same hard-ball tactics they decry in dealing with abuse in their Association…are the same hard-ball tactics they use when they feel their “rights” are being violated by their Governing Authority (Romans 13:1). I guess Calvary Chapel has a hard time submitting to the Authority over them in this instance since they think an injustice has occurred against them 🙂

Some will see the point I’m making…to those hardened CC’ites…I’m speaking Greek in a Chinese accent again.

Note to those in Riverside County who are supporters of the current zoning restrictions…even though I agree with CC on this one…if they appeal to how “good” of an organization they are…read this blog. Calvary Chapel may be right on this one, but they are very wrong on a number of issues including how they cover up and support child abusers in their Camp and how they tolerate abuse, corruption and injustices from the top (Chuck Smith) on down.

Links to two articles that deal with the Calvary Chapel vs. Riverside County controversy here:


 Posted by at 5:56 am

  76 Responses to “Calvary Chapel threatens Federal Lawsuit against Riverside County”

  1. Well, speaking as someone who attended that church for a year, the wineries never liked having a church in that area. They didn’t like the traffic it produced every Sunday. They didn’t like the feeling that thousands of Christians were condemning them as they drove past every Sunday. (CCBF took a hard stance against alcohol.) They also didn’t like the competition for weddings and large events.

    The wineries had some big money 8 years ago and had lots of sway then. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is overturned and all that money funds some other method of causing CCBF grief.

  2. alex,
    the zoning restriction was put in place ‘after’ they started the church and in order to restrict churches from being established in the area? they should try to get the restriction overturned. it’s obviously and intentionally unconstitutionally restricting churches and free religious expression.

  3. The issue here is it biblical for a christian or group of christian(churches)to sue non christians in court.I agree they should be able to build or expand their building if they choose to without interference .Sue the ones your trying to show the way to salvation?Over the last 30 years since I have seen more than my fare share of churches sue local govs…..and other ,the after affects have always been negative .

  4. I’m curious if anyone has tried to think outside the box and see if there is a way to love their winery neighbors so that they will see the church as a positive instead of a negative? Just curious.

    I know that in spiritual warfare a church is always seen as a negative; but this “love your neighbor as yourself” command is pretty serious … not to mention brilliant! If the Christians/churches find a way to give to the community; recognize that Jesus, Himself, made wine; and have some understanding of the businesses(people) in the area that should be treated in a respectful manner, THEN the co-existence may be worked out in a peaceful and loving manner. It may be that other churches will be allowed, but out of respect for the area they are kept smaller. There’s got to be more than one way to skin this cat (sorry PETA.)

  5. This is her what has to be done in other countries. It’s incredibly important that Christian churches are a benefit to the community, in the eyes of the community.

    If I had a business, like the winery, and some non-profit showed up creating traffic, changing the atmosphere that has been respected up to this point, I would not like it, either.

    Seems that laying down one’s rights and winning the people over would be preferable to strong arm tactics that could ensure hardened hearts towards the gospel.

  6. Alex,

    Your argument is well taken.

    It reminds when my “dearly beloved” told me the following when he threaten me with a legal separation and I pointed out to him that it was not biblically based, because if he was to do this, according to the man’s law, neither of us had any obligation to the other. His response: “I will decide when God’s Word applies and when the Law of the Land shall be used.” My response: As a Christian, he cannot pick and choose what does and does not apply just because it suits his purpose.

    Concerning this suit and noting the quote:

    “The reason the county had proposed disallowing churches and other non-wine-related institutes is plain and simply a matter of a demand on land. It’s way more expensive to start a vineyard, produce wine and sell it than it is it to build a nonprofit, bottom line.”

    My question: Wouldn’t CC be tax free, whereas, the land, vineyard, and its product be taxed under different categories?

  7. Additional thought and feeling a bit fiesty:

    Sure would make a nice long term investment for CC, if they win. That land in the area that we are speaking of is prime property in California. If CC motives are wrong, i hope God closes the door on them.

  8. Grateful @ 4 said
    “I’m curious if anyone has tried to think outside the box and see if there is a way to love their winery neighbors so that they will see the church as a positive instead of a negative? Just curious”

    Its hard for me to view Calvary Chapel in a positive light with how they act in handling abuse and their continual practice of Moses Model leaders and a complete denial of any kind of denomination structure. I think Calvary Chapel should get this squared away first before they start expanding and going to court. They need to earn a little bit better good will to those they hurt before they start exercising their rights so forcefully.

  9. “Fool Me Once”

    Another brave, anonymous voice crying in the wilderness. Stop blogging the voice says —- in a blog. Could that be a voice frustrated that PxP is no longer there to blog upon?

  10. Fool me once,
    You don’t like the site yet you post here? You got some very valid points and I wouldn’t be surprised if you are a CC pastor yourself (shill) that is living with guilt in still being in the system. You are right that CC pastors probably will not change. If you are one of them, I ask you to come forward and step down from the corrupt system. I personally hope that the blog site remains so that there will be a warning to others about abuse in the organization that has never been dealt with.

    Now about throwing the darn computer away and quitting blogging. Well I can’t throw the computer away but I may take your advice and stop for awhile. Maybe I will be like you and just come on once a month or so to check out the latest article.

  11. Here in the state of Ohio I watched a church get into a bloody legal fight with it’s local city government and a group of investors over a empty school building and property.The gov wanted a strip mall for tax revenue and jobs,the church wanted to turn it into a church and school.The end result was stale mate, no church or strip mall .The church did not have the money to renovated once it was purchased and the bean counters lost interest and move on to a comunity that was perceived to be more growth friendly.Everybody came out the loser on this one.

  12. fooled… still

    (why don’t you ‘vote with your feet’, ‘get a life’ and stop ‘tearing down the Work of God’ in this blog.)

    no way, just kidding. this is just where you need to be in order to hear the other side of the coin and have an honest opportunity to make an intelligent decision on the truth of the matters. I hope you stick around. Welcome!!

  13. BBG

    wouldn’t it be great if people thought of the ‘Church’ rather than the church? nowadays, the church is a business competing for ‘land, space, and buildings’ when we aught to be focused on ‘people, discipleship, and witness in the community’.

    why is it that many churches (CC especially) want to open schools? $$$! and they will do whatever they have to do, bully and sue anyone they have to in order for them to secure ‘land, space, and buildings’ to further their ‘ventures of business’ (clever pun on ‘Ventures of Faith’ no extra charge)

  14. MiC,

    I agree whole heartily with your observation above. Schools particularly tend to bring in lots of $$$ but to them its a vision they received from God. Nothing can get in their way because they believe its a direct vision from God and if you oppose them you are opposing God. This is their mentality.

  15. Disconnect from the Matrix… find the true Body of Christ among His people

  16. I know one of the pastors at the church. They are running with the campaign “wine country doesn’t want churches”…when on paper it is actually quite deeper:

    The city’s side (devil?) wants to preserve wine country from ANY commercial development that detracts from the business of, or preserving, grape farm land. The church says “they don’t want us”, the city says “if you don’t have grapes we don’t want you” type thing.

    There are always two sides to every story. City says “save the grapes”, church says “evil non christians are persecuting us”.

    I did speak with my staffed friend, who fully believed satan was attacking the church and that preserving grapes was secondary to banning churches. I disagreed based on the actual legal documents and was ostracized from the debate.

    Typical church brainwashing unfortunately. Both sides of the story are rarely told, Calvary is only acting in its own business interests. Should we be surprised though that church operates no differently than a wordly business? I’m not.

  17. steve
    “Should we be surprised though that church operates no differently than a wordly business? I’m not.”

    i agree. but i would go further and say that the church should not be a business at all.

  18. Mike, I couldn’t agree more. I found an interesting comment on this debate:

    “I 100% support religious freedom (if you don’t, you should not be an American) and I 100% support the rules that preserve and support local viticulture (if you don’t, you should not be a Temeculan).

    And because I support both, I am 100% in favor of the rules that preserve less than 1% of Riverside County land for viticulture and leave the other 99+% available for non-agricultural uses.

    The project applicant (CC, The Barn) knew when it applied for its permit in wine country as a “non-conforming use” that the rules would not allow them to expand IN THAT LOCATION. But nothing is in the way of building in other locations.”

  19. steve,

    interesting comment indeed. where was that from?

  20. sorry steve

    i found it…

  21. by the way all,

    i’m not schitzoid. my #2 was “knee jerk”. i changed my mind. (i was against it before i was for it) after reading the two links from alex’s article, i think that CC ‘the barn’ should just stick to their previous agreement and not expand to do a school (or any other business). seems like the county isn’t trying to shut them down, only keep them from expanding their ‘ business foot print’. they need to keep their previous word. if they don’t like it, they can ‘expand’ into another area.

  22. Funny. I was wondering when you would pick up this issue on the online news radar. 🙂

    Steve is right. I have read all the issues. CC Wine Country knew at the start they would not be able to expand when granted their original permittingbeofe more permanent zoning restrictions were put in place.They have a pretty decent facility as is. If they really feel God is leading them to start a school, then come on into town folks!

    When the County wanted to permanently restrict the building of churches in the past they graciously grandfathered CC in. In that sense they have a corner on the market, they are the only church.So their whining about wine country restrictions is ridiculous, and now they are going to sue the County? Trusting and suffering for God, eh?

    This is a legitmately sad story in the story of the Kingdom in So Cal Wine Country.

  23. I think the thing that irks me the most in this scenario, is that God’s money is being used to finance lawyers and lawsuits against fellow man, instead of feeding the starving or spreading the word of God.

    How corrupt & blind we as the body of Christ have become, to prioritize empire expansion over ‘the least of these’.

  24. victorious,
    “…then come on into town folks!”

    my guess is that you live in the area? how far out of town is the church?

  25. From old town Temecula to the barn is 6 miles and takes about 10 minutes.

  26. Hey maybe they will be a saddleback out there and Calvary will lose some of their members. I figure that Saddleback probably has taken some of Calvaries people anyway.

  27. Let’s see … sue the people we are trying to reach …

    … alienate the county…

    Now there’s a new evangelistic method. Thinking outside the box, eh?

  28. Its time for praise-a-thon on day-star I watch these a lot because I really want to believe. To believe what they say, to believe in miracles, to believe in a Divine plan. I understand that is silly but I really want to. No tongue and cheek this seems to be the tension I feel concerning miracles Divine guidance etc. I feel that I should and cling to it and even let in permeate my entire life, much like is displayed on these Praiseathon shows. Sort of like the total immersion of belief in day to day life in movies like Gladiator, I mean not living a compartmental faith but fully included. But on the other hand thinking myself a totally pathetic fool for buying into any of the shticks because I know they are all lying through their teeth. I dont think that about every Christian or minister. It is really confusing and I think it is what leads to my “rants” and “emotional” outbursts.

    PS I do appreciate the kind words people offered and good advice. I often sound like a broken record, well I am broken but you get the point. I wish and hope PP comes back.

  29. It’s ironic that this latest CC imbroglio involves the wine country. I’ve noticed that way back in the day and even now, CC has an almost Islamic aversion to alcohol. They never seem miss an opportunity to expound on the evils of even a good Chianti with pasta.

  30. Steve and Mike,

    Your observations are well stated. I was thinking about the point Steve made in #8 and my thought caused me to think of this being like the man who betrays and abuses his wife at home, then goes out to conquer the land to acquire his riches. All in the name of God.

    What I have always wonder is, if they have this money to use on legal defense they don’t use it to help those in the body of Christ who have been severely affected by the economical crisis. Instead, what I hear is constantly from the pulpit is to “hang on, God will providde—then remind us to invest what little we have back into the “church” in order to do God’s work?

    Not looking at my Bible right now, but calling forth my memory: Didn’t Paul receive monies from the church at Mesadonia (sp) to take back to the church in Jerusalem to feed the Christian who were starving? And didn’t the church give all they had to share with those who did not have. It seems to me we need to take care of those in need in the body of Christ, first. Didn’t Jesus say that it is wrong to say to a brother or sister in need, God bless, then be on our way. But rather to meet their need in concrete terms, as well as to provide spiritual encouragement?

    I know that when I was homeless and CC knew this, not once did they call me to see if I was all right. If I needed food or any other type of help. It was only after losing a rapid 34 pounds and going too long without food that I ventured out and risk calling the church pastor where my husband I had been attending (Friends church), to ask for food. If I hadn’t, being hypoglycemic, I would have been dead within 24 hours. I was already manifesting the symtpoms that a diabetic experiences, so I knew if I didn’t it would soon be over and I would be looking into the face of Jesus. This pastor knowing the whole situation didn’t even hesitate. Asked me what I could or could not eat, drove to where I was, prayed with me and provided the protien bars, water, and fruit drinks to last me a few more days.

    But CC, not so much as a peep. Yet my husband was tithing away what was considered to be at minimum, community property.

    So yeah, very good points. Mike, as for the person who took this occasion to chastise those who blog on this site, I really like the way you responded. Hopefully more will come on to hear what we have to share. and why we do so.

  31. Linda you and I have crossed some of the same lines. Where I would draw the line is asking, if God Himself appeared to me I would have never asked a pastor, Christian community concerning a need of any kind for even a second. I still will not cross that line it was drawn clear and with great passion. I have fallen into the sin of asking for help, prayer, or hope and trust me it is sin, no tongue and cheek here. It is what it is. It was always made clear in my apologetic that if one questions, asks for help, leans, seeks or if they really fall into apostasy grieve then they will be consigned into the fires of hell. As I was taught most every person is consigned to the fires of hell, and us who are not should fine some great peace in that. We should rejoice and sing praises to other people whom are damned.

    I have never been able to understand that spiritual gift and it is a gift, well maybe it is not but that is another post.

  32. linda’s #30

    i saw a vid on a church using it’s ‘spare acreage’ to start a community garden to grow food to help people who have less than they need (families with kids, homeless, unemployed/ underemployed…). i thought it was a great idea, but chances are not alot of churches these days would be open to it because it’s not a money maker. like say perhaps a k-8 school is.
    what do you think it would take to plant this idea into the heads and hearts of churches these days with too much green/brown space around their buildings?

  33. if the church is already called a ‘barn’ can’t they also be known as a ‘farm’ where people can come and recieve part of the ‘harvest’ in exchange for working the garden? would be a great way to teach….
    planting good seed in good soil,
    the importance of pulling up weeds that choke out growth
    the dependance upon daily watering with the Word and Grace of God
    and so forth…
    i would think in this economy also it would be a great way to serve the community in selfless ways (not just trying to make a buck off their kids)

  34. i expanded my ideas on church community gardens to a post on my blog. as jesus said “come and see”

  35. It will be interesting to me, after this hearing settles, to see if calvary follows up on their legal threat. After reading all the present zoning documents, and the conditions of The Barn’s zoning permit, if I was counsel for calvary chapel I would adivse them not to pursue legal action.

    However, if I was an immoral lawyer, and wanted a christmas bonus, I would bleed the Barn’s ignorance into law and take their tithe (I’m sorry attorney fees) as long as possible until the final verdict came in denying the expansion.

    Hmm, I wonder what road The Barn’s counsel will take.

  36. mic said:

    “Disconnect from the Matrix… find the true Body of Christ among His people”

    Yup!! That’s why I left the Organized Church System 2 years ago and I haven’t looked back.

  37. Steve said:

    “How corrupt & blind we as the body of Christ have become, to prioritize empire expansion over ‘the least of these’.”

    This is the legacy of the Lukewarm American Church in the 21st Century

  38. And the Nicolaitans. My heart is so very grieved.

  39. Steve @ 35

    Do you think the Barn’s counsel will be that Wonder Woman lady that Alex had the pleasure of meeting last year?

  40. Brian, you say these are the things you were taught. But what do you believe?

  41. MIC,

    Hmmm, interesting question. Recently I watched a documentary on what was taking place in Detroit, Michigan. Michigan is a state that has struggled economically for as ling as I can remember, Detroit is is in severe squalor condition with a lot of empty plots of land and parking lots being ovetaken by garbage and weeds.

    Many people who don’t have a dime in their pocket have begun to turn this around by doing just what you shared. First, they feed the community, then they secure contracts to supply the nearby restuarants and food markets with fresh produce. As the demand grows more lots are being developed — right in the midst of a concrete jungle.

    All I can say, we the church need to come up with something soon, as the economy is not getting any better and the number of homeless is growing. Public funding is scarce and unless you have children or are an addict, it is extremely difficult to get a substenence. Pressure is placed on you to get a job and the lines are long in applications.

    Here’s an example: I have 3 degrees with 3 majors and a minor. At one time while seaching for a position, I decided to test for state job. My score was 99.5. Now normally that would have put me on the top list to interview. But it didn’t. When looking at where I was in line for an interview, it stated that I had something like 37,834 applicants ahead of me. For one position that was opened. Get the picture.

    Personally I would love to garden and share the fruits of what it bears with others.

  42. Andrew @ 39

    I am not sure if she is counsel for all CC’s in the area, or just big tent mesa. Costa Mesa is aware of the issue, and it has been discussed on pastor’s perspective as well.

    Having said that, ANY attorney with their clients’ interest in mind only…will advise to not pursue legal action. But as I said, its a paycheck, so we’ll see how they pursue.

  43. Mic. Looks like jlo gave you an understanding of where the church resides. In regards to your #33. There is another church in town that partnered with another regional rescue mission to form a local rescue mission. That organization owns farmland ( not in wine country) where they grow produce harvested by volunteers and given to the homeless/ needy and sold to others with the proceeds going to the mission operations.

  44. I think sir sheckstein knows the legal eagle details of the history on this story from a personal / professional perspective?

  45. once…
    wow, did you read some of the ‘hate on christians’ comments?

  46. MiC @ 46

    “Actually, I’d wager money (if I had any) that these baboons have never even heard the phrase “render unto Caesar.” Fundies who have actually read scripture beyond selected out-of-context verses are few and far between in my experience.”

    Insults aside, that has been my experience in church empires too. I have even read a verse, word by word, to someone…only to be told I was “taking it out of context”. In case you missed that the first time, I read the verse verbatim.

  47. by the way, anyone know how the hearing turned out this am?

  48. Brian,

    I have always liked reading your late night posts on PP.
    You share thoughts that many of us have, but are too embarassed to admit.
    I am glad to read your thoughts because they are deep and thought provoking.

  49. ..thought being thought provoking…sorry…a tough day…
    maybe thoughts CAN be thought provoking….

  50. Victorious:

    Bingo. Do you know me?

    To all:

    Just wonder your thoughts on a church suing the Dept. of Agriculture to place it’s transmitter in a National Forest in order to expose an additional 5 mil or so more listeners to the teaching of the Word?

  51. Dad. How many times have I told you to stay away from this site? Do it again and I’ ll take away your meds.

    Hannah. Where’s my lox and kippers?

  52. ..Next to your Matzoh Brei 😉

  53. remember pickled herring?

  54. But missing my schmaltz

  55. Yummy on Challah!

  56. You Kasha varniska you! What was that stuffed intestine dish? Kishka? OK, I’m done…carry on!

  57. I really really appreciate all the kindness shown me here and to answer one question at times I believe it, at times I dont, and at times to be honest I use it as an excuse to hide behind. Sometimes all three, I am working on that through the grace of God. Michael if you are reading this blog thanks for PP it was a life saver for me on many occasions.

    Alex an off topic question I am really looking at moving into the private sector / personal business I know you have done much in this area. Any websites with basic info would be appreciated. Thanks Brian.

  58. “Riverside County will accept $100,000 from Calvary Chapel Bible Fellowship to reexamine the environmental and social effects of allowing churches and schools in Temecula Valley Wine Country.”

  59. OUaT @ 60

    Interesting. The city is prepared to do another environmental impact survey to the tune of $100k in tithe dollars.

    Now it is Calvarys turn. Do they forego the study, and save those monies for their current church & ministry?

    Or do they refuse to accept that it is not God’s will for them to expand, nor does God want them to abide by man’s laws, and continue to throw money at this thing as long as the county & lawyers will accept it?

  60. I’m getting this deja vu feeling, that if the study is completed, we’ll be back in the same place again with the current rules standing, but the County graciously ready to accept another $100k in tithe monies to fund further environmental impact studies.

  61. steve
    from what i read doesn’t seem like CCBF really ‘cares’ about the impact, environmentally, socially or otherwise. they just want their school and they don’t care how much money or time or damage they have to do to get it.
    shame on the church leadership, the pastor and all ‘sheeple’ who just go along with this.

  62. MiC @ 63

    “How very ‘christian’ of them.” / sarcasm off

    The more I read about what the church is doing in this scenario, the more I can relate to the community persons who said “we don’t want your kind here”.

    But then, I saw the “light” that calvary was shining before men, and ‘came out of her people’ once I matured as a christian. When I first decided to stop going, I was of course on the fence about what to do.

    The backlash & cultish behavior I received from members, to even SUGGEST their was something wrong with their “perfect church”…was the final nail in the coffin to keep me from going back.

    I’m sure my experience would not be the same in all calvaries (at least I hope) but I personally will never find out 🙂

  63. Shecky.I met you once although we do not really know each other per se.I did walk away from our encounter 5 bucks richer.

    Steve. Do we know each other?

  64. About suing an arm of the Feds.ITraditionally,missionary enterprises exposed people to the Gospel with offers of further interaction to implement discipleship in areas where there was no known church or where it was illegal to identify publicly as a follower of Christ. Even though the tool of technology was used it was not primary. The gospel and the word connected an individual follower / disciple with the interested or newly converted, often combining letter and literature with radio. It was a planned and integrated venture that sought to implant the church in a culture and hopefully in time bring about face to face fellowship.In these types of ventures you pray and are willing to suffer so that the souls of others would prosper.Those who sue are just wanting to open up new market opportunities for their pfavorite sermonizer.

  65. Victorious,
    “Those who sue are just wanting to open up new market opportunities for their favorite sermonizer.”

    yuppers !! I agree. they are protecting their market trying to expand the ‘business’.

  66. victorious @ 65

    I’m not sure if we know each other. I was raised in big costa mesa calvary, even went to school there, and was privy to observe many of the “christian” dealings at the compound.

    Want to make a big calvary mistake? Suggest Mr. Smith is human & fallible. You’ll either be lenched, or asked to go to counseling for questioning a ‘man of god’.

  67. It may be a big Calvary no no and will get you disciplined real quick but there is nothing like learning the truth and getting a peak behind the scenes. This is why I support Alex with this site.

  68. Seeve @ 68

    Want to make a big calvary mistake? Suggest Mr. Smith is human & fallible. You’ll either be lenched, or asked to go to counseling for questioning a ‘man of god’.

    you mean “man god” just drop the of…

  69. Once a guru, you’re funny.

    I usually get, ” I have never heard anything against Chuck Smith. He is a man of God.”

    My response: well you are hearing it now, but you do not want to listen.

  70. Well, I saw Mars Hill advertisement Orange County similar style to the Seattle Mars HIll. Three white guys pastors and assistant pastor and one Asian assistant pastor or on staff..probably similar demographics mainly white with 15 percent Asian and in the OC congregation probably about 10 percent Hispanic since OC has a higher Hispanic population than Seattle. Its pretty post modern Christianity appeal. Still some competition for Calvary Chapels in that area, however probably not in the Riverside area . .

  71. Well, I’m not familiar with the demographics of that area of Riverside but I watched some of the Harvest crusade compared to one I think I watched on the internet about 10 years ago. There are a lot of young Hispanic women in the group most likely second generation came here at a young age or were born in the US. A lot of second and third generation hisapnics before the housing bubble moved to the inland empire where most of the populationg growth occured since its a lot cheaper to buy a house in Riverside versus Orange County. Calvary Chapels do well with 2nd or 3rd generation Hispanics, so in the future more Raul Ruizes instead of Gregg Lauries. Gregg is also doing Dodger Stadium whose demographics should be similar. Granted as people state it doesn matter if the leadership is white or hispanic since its bad no matter what here.

  72. cythia

    can i ask why you would interject racial demographics into the discussion? not sure it’s appropriate.

  73. Well, California is changing and predicted to go from non-Hispanic white to Hispanic, so Calvary and other megachurches need to appeal to Hispanics to have their large numbers. If you listen to politics the Hispanic vote is mention a lot to get a growing group to help win elections, so it applies to Churches particularly in States California or Arizona or Texas.

  74. Lived out here 12 years almost killed in 3 head on accidents in front of southcoast winery with drunk drivers in wrong lane staring at me because i am in their way. The city wants tax dollars,the county wants tax dollars and most of all the greedy wine makers of the valley. So stop by the wineries at night with your cameras just try to take a picture with the family at southcoast winery without paying them to do so the will see you to the door so fast it will make your head spin. As far as zoning goes its allways changing and change it will then they will pass a new bond and we will all be paying threw the nose they are already talking sewer systems that cost to much down rancho ca. Rd.

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