Jul 022010
 

Pastor Bob.

My name is Alex Grenier. I am the son of Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia. My brothers and I were physically abused by “Pastor Bob” for our entire time in his home. His board and elders, including Raul Ries (Calvary Chapel Golden Springs), Gary Ruff (Calvary Chapel Foothills) and David Rosales (Calvary Chapel Chino Valley) have ignored the allegations and the requests to have a face-to-face Matt.18 style meeting for Bob to answer his accusers and give his side of the story. Pastor Dave Rolph of Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills has agreed to mediate the meeting. Many requests have been made to Bob’s board, elders and staff…no response to date.

Bob is unrepentant and lying about his many abuses…both physically toward me and my brothers and my mother…and his spiritual abusiveness to many over the 30+ years he has been the pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia.

Under his poor leadership and unrepentant condition, Bob and his close surrogates have given cult-like counseling, to attenders and former staff members of CCV, that has nearly led to suicide and has put a tremendous strain on marriages and family relationships. He has also been verbally abusive to former staff, assistant pastors and lay-people.

There are allegations of being “stoned on pills” and allegations from one of my brothers and former staff of having abused church finances.

I have personally witnessed and been the victim of the physical child abuse. We aren’t talking gray area here…clear cut State-defined abuse including, but not limited to: hitting with objects causing deep purple bruises on the lower back, backs of legs and buttocks. Drawing blood. Hitting in the face full force with the palm of the hand. Hitting in the face with a closed fist. Locking in a small closet. Kicking. Pushing into walls. Grabbing violently. Yelling and threatening and cursing. Beating over the entire body…head to toe…with the branch of a mulberry tree leaving cuts and bruises. The number of abusive acts are too numerous to count. The memories are quite painful. It was, literally, a living hell.

My brothers and I have witnessed Bob abusing our mom Gayle over the years as well. My brother Paul witnessed Bob on top of her with both hands on her throat choking her, my brother Geoff witnessed Bob striking her in the face with an open hand and we all witnessed (as a regular part of our growing up…very frequent) her being drug off to their back bedroom, door being locked, and Bob screaming and yelling at her…and the crying and sobbing that ensued (coming from my mom).

I personally began to confront the abuses within our family, privately, over six years ago. I met stiff resistance from Bob. I asked him to repent and change his behavior toward all of us. Instead of repenting, he denied the abuse and then continued more wrong behavior and began to lie and abuse further. I was not afforded a Matt.18 meeting with him and his board and elders as witnesses to address the allegations. I was cut off from all communication with him and my mom when I pressed the issue of abuse and continued to ask him to repent and stop mistreating our family. I was told to talk to Greg and Sue Dowds about it and to “put my thoughts in a letter”…instead of Bob communicating with me in person any longer. I resisted at first, and then met with Greg and Sue (Bob’s two right-hand surrogates) and gave Bob his “letter”. Bob did not like the “letter” very much.

I spent a long time in person with Greg and Sue, who basically heard most of the stories of abuse, saw my tears, saw the pain and frustration…and basically said, “We’re so sorry for you, now go your way and pray about it and leave it to the Lord. Nothing good can come of it now. It’s in the past. Don’t harm the church. Go pray about it. There are differences of opinion”…etc. This was the instruction and response from the main elder and board member of Calvary Chapel Visalia…Bob’s right-hand man…and his wife.

I went my way and prayed for 4 years. In August of 2009 my wife discovered a blog forum about people who had been “shown the door” by Bob/CCV…in this forum were accounts from people who had attended CCV who had been hurt by Bob and tossed aside. I read their stories, felt their pain…and I believed it was time to share my story. I began sharing and the blog exploded. More and more people began sharing their stories of Bob’s abuse and corruption. Many began contacting me privately. So many similarities and patterns of abuse. It truly makes me sick to realize Bob has gotten away with this stuff for over 30 years. Shame on Bob, shame on his board and elders. Shame on the Church.

1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 are in the Bible for a reason. So is 1 Timothy 5. Bob believes he is a “prophet of God”…well guess what Mr. Prophet, you are still accountable to the same Scripture as the rest of us Schmucks who listen to your teaching about “reaping and sowing”, “holiness”, “accountability”, “justice”, “mercy”…etc etc that you’ve taught over the years. You mock God by professing the truth with your lips and then acting like an abusive corrupt jerk behind the scenes. My call to Bob is the same as it was over 5 years ago in the “letter”…Confess and Repent. My call to the board and elders of CCV is, have the meeting. You are responsible Spiritually and legally (as a Non Profit organization) to address these serious allegations. If there is merit to these allegations, your charge is clear…Bob is disqualified from ministry in his lying unrepentant state.

There is now a front page article published by the Fresno Bee that can be found here:

http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/07/17/2010135/sons-of-visalia-preacher-allege.html

 Posted by at 2:23 pm

  310 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Visalia: Pastor Bob Grenier / abuse and corruption”

  1. This is a test.

  2. Very First!

  3. It is a high call to be a pastor, and those who accept the call are held to a high standard.

    1 Peter 5:2-3
    2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

  4. Hi Alex,

    I found this site through FiftyHours. Although I have not suffered the way you have, I understand how frustrating it was for you to go to leadership in the church and be ignored. It happened to me, too, and my opinion is that the church simply cannot have a scandal or it will suffer serious financial loss. The bottom line is, leaders want to sweep everything under the carpet so they can keep people coming to church and tithing. I was very hurt by my church and to this day feel no closure or vindication because there was inappropriate sinful conduct which occurred under the leadership of a certain pastor that was just swept under the carpet. It was frustrating and to be honest, shameful on the part of the church board who chose to do nothing. I keep trying to believe that the Lord is bigger than this situation and will deal with the pastor, but it’s difficult.

    My prayer is that you will find healing through the Great Physician who has the power to renew you and help you with your pain.

  5. Hi Alex

    Having been a reader at Pp for several years I am somewhat aware of your story. Im sorry to see that there has not been resolution to date.

    Please know that you and your family are in our prayers for complete restoration and reconciliation.

  6. The site looks good, Alex. Talk about having to start from scratch but it will be worth it for sure.

  7. Snnnnnnnnnnniiiiffff, it has that new blog smell. I like it.

  8. Alex,

    I think you should post the very first thing you put on Topix, when you were five. I would like to encourage all who have a story to share to please post! Your voices will help those who have no idea what goes on at CCV; your silence will just allow this abuse to continue to others. I know of life and death situations, past and recently, that could have had different outcomes had the “counsel” at CCV been biblical and if the leadership at CCV would have been willing to support and pray (sincerely with faith) for the hurting sheep that trusted them. I am not being dramatic when I use the words “life or death”. I am not at liberty to share someone else’s experiences, only my own, but I have witnessed many wrongs and being silent about it helps no one. I think we have seen that silence just allows them to continue. We finally have a voice and a safe place to expose the evil and we have biblical grounds to do so!

    Alex, your very first post on Topix gave all of us credibility and there are more than enough witnesses that didn’t even know or talk to each other that have the same testimony. Thanks for sharing your story, as painful as it is, with us because we know we are not imagining what happened to us and we believe what happened to you and your brothers. I have communicated with you and Paul personally (just so others know) and I have cried tears over this, especially Paul, because I remember him so vividly as a little AWANA boy, but that is his story.

    I know what we are doing is biblical and if we are following the Bible, we have nothing to fear!

  9. Does Calvary Chapel have an official statement on child abuse? If a victim of abuse were to ask Chuck Smith how they should proceed in terms of having justice served on the abuser, I wonder how he would respond? Calvary Chapel’s silence on the issue of abuse with Bob Grenier leads me to believe that if the victim is the child of one of it’s pastors, then you have no recourse. Better yet, you aren’t even given the common courtesy of any type of acknowledgment (i.e. returned emails, unreturned phone calls). I believe the biggest legacy Chuck Smith will leave when he steps down from the helm of Calvary is that he allowed so many types of pastoral abuse to continue under his watch. In my opinion, inaction as it relates to confronting pastoral abuses is an endorsement of said behavior.

  10. Paul, that is a good question. It appears that CC gets involved as a “denomination” when it comes to doctrinal issues and pushing certain events and agendas…and then they claim “no responsibility” when it comes to corruption and abuse…including Child Abuse. There is a long and deep history and pattern of behavior regarding the duplicity they’ve shown and show. Chuck Smith’s silence, the CCV board and elders silence, and Bob’s silence (his official public silence, though he continues to lie to people behind the scenes and deny abuse and corruption) is deafening.

    I do not see any official statement regarding corruption and/or abuse and/or child abuse in the Calvary Chapel “Distinctives”….

  11. so, while i was pouring my heart to my pastor years ago about my own abusive marriage situation, he was abusing his own wife?!? while he was performing a poor attempt at restoring my now ex husband, he was continuing his own abusive behavior in an unrepentant state while shepherding god’s people? i cannot begin to tell you how this makes my blood boil. i skimmed topix from time to time, saw the references to child abuse and churce abuse, but i didn’t know about his own spousal abuse. this man needs to be brought down.

  12. nomorebondage, yes Bob is an abuser, his children and my mom. Yes, total hypocrisy. He stood as “judge” and “counseled” people in your situation, while secretly he was committing all kinds of abuse. Jesus says it best in Matthew 23. Jesus was not “polite” or “kind” to the hypocritical religious leaders who lorded over the people of that day.

  13. To me the one of the things that really was hard to keep me from puking, was how on PP Alex would share his experiences with everyone including some CC pastors and they would sympathize with him (to a degree. Then they would attend conferences with BG, take pictures, share the pulpet and not confront him. Not one of them took a stand (that we know of and not knowing is just as worthless as never doing it IMO). The question I continue to ask on the other blogs is this…

    Why won’t one CC pastor take a big-boy stance and say,
    “Bob Grenier, I have had many talks with one of your sons about the abuse that he and other, he claims, happens at CCV. Whether you did it or not is a concern to me, but what concerns me more is that you are not willing to sit down and discuss it with your accusers. You would rather have them drag your entire church through the mud then sit down and take a few lumps. Bob Grenier, you need to show yourself as a humble servant of God and acknowledge these people and until you do that, I can not in good faith share the same table, stage or pulpit with you. If you continue in this stiff necked blockade, I will recommend to CCOF that you lose your Dove.”

    Wow, wouldn’t that be great? Instead they do nothing, sell books, take pictures and enjoy the rock star lifestyle that CC provides. What happened to humble men of God? I guess it’s hard to be humble when you are your freinds are on the back of every book in your own bookstore, your sermons are pedaled everywhere, your on the radio daily and podcast to the world. Why would you need to answer to anyone?

    24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

  14. Why won’t one local pastor do the same?

  15. Not Alone, it’s fear and it’s apathy. No one wants to rock the boat. “It’s someone else’s problem”…and “let the Lord deal with it…”

    Yet, many in the “Church” take a much different position when it comes to raising money and/or attendance. Then “let the Lord deal with it”…goes right out the window…and HUGE efforts and campaigns and intentional strategies are executed with efficiency…and then it’s “look what the LORD has done”…

    It would be helpful to see a CC pastor take a stand…and, IMO, Pastor Dave Rolph of CC Pacific Hills has done that by agreeing to moderate a meeting. I greatly appreciate that. He was abused growing up and has been very kind to me, very patient…and he has challenged me and corrected me many times.

  16. Chuckapalooza has been in the works for awhile, I think, and CCV is the only sizable venue in the South San Joaquin Valley. CC Tulare, CC Hanford, Porterville, etc. don’t have the “overhead” and large facility and compound…I mean complex…to handle the Show.

    It is an endorsement by Chuck, in my book…especially since he has been personally notified of the bulk of the allegations…and asked for help.

    Chuck does like my mom…and my mom lies and covers for Bob…so I believe Chuck thinks me, my brothers, my aunt, my mom’s brother, Gary Ruff, a coach, neighbor, friends etc. etc. are all lying about the Child Abuse. And, he must believe that the many former staff, associate pastors and long-time lay-people are lying about spiritual abuse, terrible cult-like counseling and financial misconduct.

    IMO, Chuck either thinks we’re all liars, doesn’t really care…or believes it and chooses to ignore it and grace over it.

  17. I stopped for lunch in downtown Visalia today and read the local section of the Fresno Bee. There’s an article in this weekend’s edition promoting Chuck Smith’s visit to CCV. There are a couple of quotes in there as well from Bob Grenier as well. Check out http://www.fresnobee.com to see if the article is on-line. Maybe concerned readers can leave some responses to that article on the Fresno Bee’s blog spot.

  18. Thanks Paul, I left a response in the comments section to that article. I’ll check and make sure it’s still there…

  19. First of all, thank you Alex from the bottom of my heart for sharing your personal story and for sincerely caring for the many, many lives who have been deeply wounded by CCV over the span of 30 years.
    I also have experienced it and this is part of my story. I am writing this in a singular format, as my husband at that time is no longer with me and I cannot speak in his behalf.
    CCV was like family and I so enjoyed serving, especially being able to have a home fellowship in my home each week. After hearing heart wrenching stories from very close friends who had questioned Bob personally and witnessing things going on behind the scenes, it still took me about a year of struggle before I left. When my husband witnessed Bob’s dark side first hand over a mere question and suggestion I could not remain there. I attempted to leave quietly, as I respected the choices of others to remain and I did not speak of what I knew. Then to receive a letter of accusation stating that I was following false doctrine and encouraging others to leave it was like I was kicked in the stomach. It was a very sad and painful time, feeling much like a divorce. I was very deeply wounded, but remained silent.
    My only regret is that at the time if I had been aware of the abuse going on within the home I would have done anything within my power to have helped all four boys.
    If anyone who is still attending CCV, please hear my voice. I do understand, as I was once you. I loved my friends there and felt so secure and happy. Even when things began being apparent to me I chose to look the other way and not question. I struggled for about a year and came to a place where I could not live in denial and support bob any longer. If you are beginning to question things within your mind, feeling something in your gut or feeling struggle within your spirit know this. There are many of us who have been in the same place and like Alex, are here to help you in any way we can. I am not here because of bitter resentment or vindictiveness, but because I love you with Christ’s love and I will not be silent any longer.

  20. Pastor Bob, like all of us, is a sinner and Alex, my heart goes out to you and how you feel towards your dad. I personally was saved under your dad’s ministry and he has helped me beyond believe. I was a worthless biker and all that went with that lifestyle and he and Pastor Jim were my spiritual fathers as it were.
    I never witnessed anything close to your dads dark side as you or others have put it but have seen him in quite the opposite settings. Granted, I never lived with him but knowing your mom and Greg and Susie I can’t imagine them covering up or lying to protect that kind of sinful behavior. I went through some issues as an elder in a CC in Arizona and have seen elsewhere first hand how a pastor can destroy people.
    I, at this point, must say that I have trouble with a site that does nothing but slander a church and a mere man. I have never worshiped your dad or any other man in any church for that matter so please don’t go there.
    I agree with you and the accountability, or lack of in the CC Ministry. Having said that, we are all but sinners trying to please our Father in Heaven and not the praise of men on this earth. I will be praying for you all. This is a heartbreaking site.
    In ending Alex, you sound very unforgiving and if I were to live through what you have said I would find it hard to forgive those things myself. I have had to forgive people I set out to kill many years ago and place it all in God’s hands.
    I will pray for you all but you are going to find all kinds of abuses in all kinds of churches. That is the way of the enemy. You can always find something wrong in anyones life and any church you go to. The object is to help repair the damage if the Spirit moves you in that direction or leave it behind you and God will deal with it.
    My heart truly goes out to your family
    In His Grace
    Lyle Ferguson

  21. Thank you for your comments Lyle. I appreciate your heart on this matter…and you are entitled to your opinion and disagreement. Please keep praying.

  22. Lyle:

    While I respect your opinion and felt what you wrote was done in a spirit of concern and kindness, I must disagree with you. Have you asked Bob and Gayle about what is going on with their family? I would encourage you to do so and see what kind of reaction you get. A young lady and her husband were actually kicked out of CCV about two weeks ago for asking questions about an incident between Gayle Grenier and her daughter-in-law Amy at the Calvary Cafe on a Sunday morning.

    You are right that you can always find something wrong with anyone. However, that doesn’t mean that person shouldn’t be held accountable.

    Finally, if Bob has nothing to hide (which I suspect he does), then why won’t he agree to meet with his estranged children? Shouldn’t he be making every effort imaginable to reconcile with his children? His words and actions just don’t add up….and therein lies the big problem with Bob and Gayle Grenier.

  23. Items for consideration Lyle…Bob is a Pastor/Elder…not just a regular lay-person, and there are Biblical standards that don’t appear to be suggestions. Another item for consideration…one can “forgive” and still seek accountability and justice. While a victim of abuse, spousal or child, often “forgives”…it is not uncommon to still want accountability and justice for the abusive actions…especially at the hands of “God’s representative”…and especially when the abuser still has power over people and may abuse again.

    Forgiveness and seeking Accountability/Justice are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

  24. Alex, thank you first off for not trying to degrade or push what I had to say aside.

    I first off will say to all who have taken the time to read my response to not skim over it, read it as it is intended.

    I never once said if this was the case that Pastor Bob should not be held accountable.

    It does go a step further. If this is indeed the case and I am not saying that any or all of it isn’t true, I see no where that this type of public slaughter is Biblical.

    Alex, I doubt you would remember me but your younger brothers might. We have been gone from CCV for almost 17 years and I still have called on your dad for advise.

    The one thing I always appreciated was your dad admitting to us that he was a sinner and to look to God’s Word and seek the truth and was willing at any hour to help us. I was one that needed his help over some pretty heavy ordeals and he was up front and I didn’t always like what I heard, (same with Pastor Jim) but God’s word rang true.

    My heart breaks for you as I can personally relate to some things you described in my own childhood.

    Thirdly, I see some “hear say” on this which I would give no credence to.

    Last but not least. I am in shock over what I see in these pages, but Alex, is this what people need, to advance into the Kingdom of God or is this just to try and bring your dad to his knees? I am not saying people should not be held accountable. I’m not sure what the reason for this site but I will say that God can heal all things and if this is true and Biblical then your mom, Bob and Susie and the others should also be publicly shamed as well.

    I love you Alex and have no doubt that you feel you are doing the right thing. I just always thought we were here to worship and adore God and seek His Kingdom and help others through the Gospel to find Christ.

    If we are looking for perfection at the pulpit, they would all be empty. And if what you say about your dad is true then you should continue to bring him into accountability, but not in a public forum. We as Christan’s often try to replace the Holy Spirit as He knew seems to not work on our time table or in the ways we want Him to work.

    By the way, I mentioned forgiveness for your own stability and walk, not to let the sin factor continue or overshadow your life.

    In his Love
    Lyle

    PS
    Why are people always afraid to use their names? If you have an opinion, it isn’t illegal to have one and we are all a family in Christ I hope.

  25. Lyle here is my Biblical basis for going public:

    1 Timothy 3:1-7
    Titus 1:6-9
    Matthew 18:15-17
    1 Timothy 5:19-21
    Matthew 23 (the Seven Woes)
    Galatians 2:11-21
    2 Timothy 4:14-15
    Psalm 106:3
    Proverbs 28:5
    Isaiah 61:8
    Ezekiel 34:15-16
    Luke 11:42
    Acts 17:30-32

    Bob has refused to meet and address all these allegations with witnesses. I am cut off from a relationship with my mom because of Bob’s sin. My son wants to meet his grandma, my daughter wants to see her again (she hasn’t seen her in over 5 years). I want to see and talk to my mom again. These issues of Abuse and Corruption need to be dealt with. CC won’t deal with them. The CCV board and elders and Bob won’t follow 1 Timothy 5 or any of the verses above…so we’re left with this.

    And, from a social perspective…this is the right thing to do. So many people have been hurt…badly. Their stories will unfold on here over time. It is inexcusable that the level of abuse and corruption that has gone on for 30 years by Bob and CCV is tolerated, ignored and enable by inaction and silence.

  26. Lyle, this isn’t “hearsay”…it’s “eyewitness testimony”:

    Hearsay: 1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
    2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.

    Eyewitness: A person who has seen someone or something and can bear witness to the fact. A person present at an event who can describe what happened.

  27. I wasn’t referring to you Alex, not at all regarding hearsay. This whole thing breaks my heart
    Lyle

  28. My fear is people “outside of the church” reviewing and turning from true Christianity.
    Love you Alex….Lyle

  29. Lyle, my opinion is that many outside of church see and hear about the hypocrisy and lack of accountability and justice…and it stumbles them.

    Also, I know of many who have been stumbled by Bob and his actions…and the lack of accountability…and have left the Faith. I was among that group for some time.

  30. I’m glad you’re back….Lyle

  31. Lyle, in time I would like to use my name too. I have been careful to share only my firsthand accounts and some of those I can’t even share because the people involved don’t even want their experiences told at all and fear retribution from CCV leadership. In the letters I sent to Alex, I had to leave out a large part of what happened to my family because I couldn’t involve the other parties. I agree it is much more credible to use names and hopefully in time that will happen. I am trying to protect my children and other family members at this point.

  32. I guess most of my response comes from pure shock at the allegations of who I would always call my pastor. We are all capable of this type of abuse towards others in or out of our families, I know because I was one of those men ( I use the term men/man) loosely because real men don’t take out their anger on innocent people.
    I will be the first to admit that I have abused my step son and have asked for his forgiveness and I love him very much. I say this because I was saved while it happened and I am ashamed of it. He is now a youth pastor and I am so proud of him I could burst.

    I again will state that we are all sinners and have sin we will have to deal with throughout our lives and I guess this whole ordeal has taken my feet out from under me.

    All I can do is pray for all involved and say to Alex that I love him as a brother in Christ. Lyle

  33. Yes, Lyle, we are all sinners. You confessed your sin and repented and reconciled with your step-son. That is God-honoring…that is how a Believer responds when confronted with their sin.

  34. I had to run so I wanted to make a few things clear on my last message.
    I did not at anytime physically abuse my stepson, it was more verbal, but just as damaging.
    A person who goes through the abuse cycle, whether verbal or physical or both, feels deep shame, even if they don’t admit it.
    My biggest problem is the forum in which this is taking place. No one being saved can continue in live without a deep regret of what they have done. The root sin is “Pride” and things of this nature when publicly aired to those in and out of the church will drive that person into a protective mode.
    You might think back to the military and how things where crammed into our minds. If found out or captured we were trained in denial of any knowledge of what we were doing or what others in our command were doing, self-preservation is a hard thing to contend with. Please know I am not making excuses. I state fact on things that are deeply ingrained in those of us who are trained to defend our country. This does not make what you state happened to your family OK, but there are other factors that are more deeply involved then people may realize.
    Alex, there are laws in place to protect people from what you state has happened, my question is why have you and those involved not used the process like those and myself have served to protect?
    These laws are there for a reason and if you and your brothers are certain that this has taken place I would say that you leave your mother unprotected and liable for more physical damage. Why has no one pressed charges?
    I again will say that I deeply love your father even though he is a sinner. You all have to make a choice. I still believe this is not the right format to do so but I have and will defend your right to free speech.
    If all you say is fact then the law should intervene on everyones behalf.
    I will search the scriptures you listed and respond back to you privately. God Bless, Lyle

  35. Lyle, we have pressed charges. There is a Police Report at the VPD. Paul and I interviewed with Detective Bill Diltz of the Violent Crimes Division. Detective Diltz interviewed several others who we gave as witnesses. I heard from my Aunt that she was interviewed and shared her eyewitness account of abuse. My Uncle (my mom’s brother) also reported that he was interviewed by Diltz and that he told him about the stories Geoff had shared with him about much abuse in our home…this was told to him while Geoff was in High School and had not long before been punched in the face and then kicked out of the house by Bob. Diltz had many others on the list to interview.

    I was informed by the VPD that the DA’s office said the statute of limitations had expired on physical child abuse.

    There are civil options that are being looked into. I keep holding out hope for a different outcome…and in the meantime believe it is important to address these issues…publicly…as Bob is a pastor and held to a Standard…and so that others may take warning from his terrible example…in the hopes that these abuses will be avoided by others.

    The other benefit of going public is that the spotlight is on Bob’s behavior like never before. This is a form of accountability and will hopefully keep him from abusing my mom further…or anyone else at CCV…with the spotlight so bright on him.

    My mom is in denial or intentionally lying as a typical abused spouse enabler to protect the abuser. So, there’s not much I can do…other than what I’ve done and am doing.

  36. Alex, I think this sight is perfect! I think it will be more effective and not as much ‘spammers’. I think you need to revise your accounts, like someone had advised. When you started from the beginning. When you were just 5. What you posted on Topix. Anyways, just an opinion. I clicked on the Fresno Bee sight and yes, they deleted it because “Alex Grenier has posted abuse”. WHAT??? Glad this sight is up and running. I pray God brings the elders, and Bob to their knees and they agree to this meeting. If there is nothing to hide, they will be CLEARED and you will stop, right?? So CCV, make this meeting happen! Why do you not meet with Alex? Not meeting, makes you look guilty. If I had been accused of abusing my family, I would open my doors WIDE and expose it all, because I have nothing to hide!! Be aware CCV employees, I don’t know if Bob may be buying time to get rid of evidence or why he is not responding. If you are involved in that church and are reading this and are covering up for Bob, you are JUST as guilty!! Pray and confess and listen to the Holy Spirit!!

  37. ExCCV, yes, I posted the allegations and that Chuck Smith had been made aware of them…and was still attending Bob’s church. The allegations were pretty specific. My guess is someone from CCV (or Bob himself) complained.

    The managing editor of the Fresno Bee contacted me after I re-posted and cited the First Amendment and that the information is to the benefit of the public to be warned…as many would probably not give or attend if they knew Bob was an unrepentant Child Abuser.

    The editor contacted me. I’ll leave it at that.

  38. So does that mean you can’t state your opinion? That is horrible!! I just read that account, as I was reading more of your sight, regarding the change. If any of you have not clicked on the “Jar of Change” part, it is a must for reading. I think it is so sad, but it shows the heart of Bob. Thanks again, ALex for sharing so much and just for this sight. I think Bob is under so much of a spot light, I encourage all of you to start using our real names and I will pray too. I see there has been several who are, who were involved in the church and using our real names gives so much more accountability and shows we have real evidence!! I hope next time I post, I will use mine!

  39. I wish I had the guts to go back to CCV and stand up in church and ask public questions. Of course I know he would send Mike Buford and his minions to usher me out because I had “disrupted HIS service”
    Thanks you Alex for bringing this out into the open so all of us affected know that we are not alone. Who knows how many people were hurt by his prideful tyraids. I remember him speaking in church of how he had such a terrible temper that he broke a chair and the marks of the chair are still evident on the ceiling. Last time he spoke of it it just made me sick how he could calmly and laughingly describe such an event. And how he tried to make himself sound like the good guy. He’s a flippin cult leading nutjob!

  40. Yankee Doodle, yes, I remember that incident of abuse rather well. It’s one of the many burned into my memory. In Bob World…it’s “funny”…it wasn’t funny to the rest of the family when a grown man is screaming and yelling at the top of his lungs with a demon-possessed look on his face…as if he’s going to kill you…then violently picking up a chair over his head and it striking the ceiling…and then him shattering it into pieces. Real funny Bob.

    I remember all of us, including your wife and my mother…crying…not laughing.

  41. I remember him telling that story many times too! I remember him saying this, “I now have my temper under control and every time I see the marks in the ceiling, it reminds me to not get that upset.”, and to know he was doing all he had done to you boys!! WOW!!

  42. I am currently writing a book on the experiences I and many others have faced at CCV I would just like to ask for permission to publish stories you have about Bob and CCV. I am hoping that with this book that not only CCV members will see the true side of Bob but members of other churches will feel engaged and want to assure that this corruption does not occur in their own churches.

  43. TellTheWorld, you can contact me privately (see the Contact Me page on this blog) regarding your proposed book. I would need to know who you are and trust you before giving you permission to use me.

    I considered a book many years ago…but after much reflection, and knowing how Bob operates…he’d use it as spin to try and say I was trying to profit from a false story. The stories are true…and I share them all “free of charge” here on this blog (and elsewhere)…unlike Bob’s ministry…which requires lots of people to give him lots of money to promote his agenda and support his kingdom (little k).

  44. Alex, I want to encourage you to stay strong in your effort to expose this situation. Of course there will be those who attack you and say they have seen no evidence of abuse by BG. Controlling people are very good at making others think whatever they want and see things as the controller wants them to be seen. Their only threat to being exposed is the people who see them as they really are. His family knows who he is and sees through all the false pretenses and claims. Controlling people who are not living a life consistent with the life they profess to others are threatened by the truth those close to them see. If any of them should speak out it would be very harmful to the “wonderland” they have created. By using fear and intimidation the abuser can control those close to him. Also creating shame and a sense of guilt, telling them they got what they deserved and caused leaves the victim with a sense of helplessness and believing there is nowhere to turn for help. This sense of isolation leaves the victims with a loss of hope. They believe they are not deserving of an escape from their despair. This evil tool of the abuser is also used by Satan in convincing us we are not worthy of the Grace and Redemption of our God. Praise God that He has provided you with an escape. Woe to all who are complicit in the covering and support of the controlling one. The only escape is true confession and repentance. Covering up these things or looking the other way is sin. If we as believers do not reflect Christ in our lives, then we are a hindrance to the truth and need to have the mirror cleansed by Gods hand or cast aside as of no use. What good are we to anyone no matter how large our “venue.”

  45. Alex… run the race. Public exposure is appropriate when private approaches have been exhausted. I trust you are well.

  46. Dread, good to see you on here my friend. Thank you for posting. By God’s grace and empowerment I am hanging in there. Please keep me, my wife and my family in your prayers.

  47. Thank you Alex for your courage. One day I may post my own experience with an abusive Calvary Chapel, but the last time I did that(on another site), I was accused of lying by someone who is part of the pastor’s inner circle. It was very hard to share my story and my pain, only to be called a liar and I’m not ready for that again.
    God Bless you.

  48. To healing heart, we believe you. You and God know it happened, we have experienced the same abuse. It’s extremely hard when you put your trust in them only to have them abuse you. We are truely sorry you have suffered such pain. They are clever like that, they try not to have witnesses when they abuse you verbally. I’m sure the other man who was there that day would deny the threat bob made to me. But he knows it’s the truth and that’s all that matters to me.

  49. Thank you Tina, your words are a blessing. I wandered in the desert for a long time, but recently began to renew my relationship with Christ. It helps knowing that I’m not alone.
    Blessings to you.

  50. Tina, thank you for using your name and taking a stand. I admire your courage. What was done to you is wrong. No spin will ever justify the verbal abuse and threat you received. Bob is a bully. He is in unrepentant sin and needs to confess and repent.

    CCV is better served by finding a pastor who meets the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

    I am sorry you had to experience that side of Bob (the side underneath the veneer).

    Shame on Greg Dowds for his complicity.

  51. Hi Tina:

    I admire you as well for using your name. You really touched a lot of lives with all your years of ministry at CCV. I know you definitely impacted my life in a positive way. I am so sorry that you went through that horrible experience.

  52. Alex,
    I am so happy to see your new website. You know my prayers are with you brother.

  53. Na’amah, so good to see you over here. I really appreciate our friendship. I will get back to you regarding that last email. I have been giving it much thought and wanted to respond when I was ready to have that part of the discussion.

    I hope you will participate here, as your expertise and insight are extremely valuable.

  54. Hi there!
    Great site, withing you continued courage.
    ( | o )====:::

  55. Good to see you Grendal. Thank you for your prayers and encouragement.

  56. So why aren’t you having him (them?)arrested? The police need to be alerted to child abuse, particularly in an institution.

  57. Tiggy, we (Paul and I) reported the abuse to VPD…and the Spousal abuse. Detective Bill Diltz of the Violent Crimes division interviewed us separately. Diltz interviewed my brother Geoff via phone. Diltz also interviewed our Aunt who witnessed abuse…and our Uncle (my mom’s brother) who was made aware of abuse years ago when my brother Geoff was still in high school.

    The DA’s office notified VPD that the statute of limitations has expired on physical child abuse.

    We are left with publicly exposing the abuse among a couple of other options which we are looking into. Still hoping the CCV board and elders will agree to a sit down with Pastor Dave Rolph of CC Pacific Hills as a mediator where Bob can face his accusers (us brothers and many others from CCV) and then the board and elders can make a decision about Bob’s fitness to to lead that church/non profit organization.

  58. Alex, you’re doing a good job. Keep up the good work and run the race set before you.

  59. Hi Alex you probably dont remember me im so sorry for this,i know a little of what you and your brothers are going through i went through that with my uncle,disciplined with his fist and what ever was close by.But by Gods grace he was saved and and there was no greater feeling knowing he was a changed man not only by words but in heart,he went home to lord last year.We left CCV about 2.5 yrs ago.It just didnt feel right and support from the church on a personel issue was mind blowing.I heard Bob teach aboute illness and how they cant help if they dont know.so i told him what was going on and i never heard from them again.i know this isnt abuse but it sure does show a mans heart.By Gods grace all is good now.The prayers of my house are with your family and CCV to open there eyes and make a change

    henry

  60. Henry, I do remember you. I hope you and your family are well. I’m sorry to hear that Bob didn’t help you guys out when you had need…that’s what the church is there for. If you would have been a Katrina victim, a Tsunami victim…something that would have grabbed a headline…or if you had been a part of the inner-circle or famous in some way…my guess is you would have gotten the help you needed.

    Thank you for your prayers and support.

  61. jlo, good to see you :)

  62. Hi Alex. I have not spoken to you about this, but I have spoken to Paul. I am so sorry. I was around all the years this was happening to you and I had no idea.
    I support what you are doing here. I appears to me that you have done everything you can up to this point to resolve this serious issue in a Biblical manner. May the freedom that we have in Christ wash over you and your family.

  63. Hi Henry,
    When we read your post, my son said “Henry was my Sunday school teacher.” Thanks for serving my children while you were at CCV.

    Your story brings back several memories of a similar nature. This has been a pattern at CCV for years. It is not an isolated incident in your case.

    I remember visiting one of my ministry partners while he was in Kaweah Delta for 10 days after major surgery. I went to Bob and asked him about it and he gave me the exact same answer. “We can’t help if we don’t know.” It ended up that I was the only one to visit this person during his hospital stay. (He, his former wife and his children have not attended any church for years)

    Several years later the same thing happened with another friend at church. He still attends CCV. He was in the hospital for 3 days and no contact from anyone at the church except me.

    Recently I have been witness to several awkward attempts at ministry to the sick from CCV pastors and staff which appeared to be done out of public relation concerns rather than compassion for the sick.

    It is true that your can’t minister if you don’t know someone is in need, however, ministry to the sick is clearly not a priority at CCV. They just are not set up to deal with these bothersome issues. In all my years there I can recall only a handful of times that Bob prayed for any sick person from the pulpit.

    Also, I clearly remember several incidents just a few years ago of elderly persons having medical problem during two consecutive Sunday services and Bob not stopping and ministering to them or even praying for them. He just said “everyone keep you eyes up here” and keep preaching. Then, when a wonderful saint who got up and attended to one of the “victims” tried to re-enter the church after ministering to the sick out in the lobby, was told she couldn’t come in because it would disrupt the service. She went in anyway.

    Along the same line, I have always been amazed that when someone dies in the body at CCV it was never announced. The only way you found out was by whispers in the hallway or the newspaper. I guess since there is no “membership” then there are no “members” therefore no responsibility to minister to the “members”.

    I have heard Bob say from the pulpit that he lacks compassion. This lack of caring certainly flows down from the top at CCV.

  64. Freedom! Thanks for your participation. I know who you are and you are a good man and served faithfully for so many years. You were always a good example to me and my brothers.

    What you say is true.

    And, Bob has no true compassion. He can “fake it” if need be…he is a gifted actor…but he lacks a true sense of compassion which is part of his make-up in the condition he’s in.

  65. Alex, that picture on top keeps creeping me out. I get up and hid eyes follow me around the room. They keep saying “you are not good enough”.

    That just makes me mad. :(

  66. I think the eyes remind me more of the Wicked Witch of the West…”I’ll get you my pretty and your little dog too!” Would that make Mike Buford his chief flying monkey, out to do his bidding.

  67. Ouch!!!

  68. Alex,
    Yeah the picture is creapy but good for all to see. I enjoyed our chat the other day. It still makes me cry and feel sick when I remember Robert showing marks on him from a towel whip and thinking he was “just joking”. That was Bob kidding around? Not a fun time if you ask me. I’ll continue praying for you and your family.

  69. Erin, thank you. I enjoyed our talk also and with your permission would like to tell your story when and if you are ready.

    What happened to you (both instances) is way wrong and should never happen at a church…especially the second instance.

    IMO, the marks on Robert’s leg were not “from a towel”…but rather from an object like a belt or thick paddle…like many of the “normal” punishments we received. You don’t hit kids on the backs of their legs and their back while you are in a rage. That is abuse. You don’t leave marks and draw blood. That is abuse.

    The sooner the “Church” defines appropriate and inappropriate discipline of a child…the better.

  70. Are all of you tracking the Map of Visitors? 605 visits in a week and a half. At that rate, there will be more hits on this blog in one month than a whole year on the Topix blog. Also notice the readership is completely spread across the US from coast to coast, and into most of the other developed continents. Bob’s stubbornness and refusal to meet privately has lead to about 60 new people a day that he is open to public scrutiny by. I am not sure this is the kind of fame he was dreaming of. The bright side is he can go on a worldwide book tour to raise the funds that may someday be borrowed back from him at CCV.

  71. whoa…… I can’t think of any reason why you would want to lie about this, particularly when you would have to answer to God. Sounds like Bob is a quite the peice of work nut job.

  72. I’ve looked at the map and the closest spot to me is over an hour from my town. Must just track where the hub is.

  73. I have lost my husband to this church. I have always known there was something wrong there, but couldn’t quite put my finger on it. If you don’t go with their program they don’t want you at all. In my experience there was no priority to keep the family together if it would cause question and resistance to their methods. I wish I could say more, maybe someday I can. I feel sad, excluded and all alone.

  74. alone, I am so sorry for you. My heart aches. I know exactly what you are expressing. Bob crosses healthy boundaries and commands an unhealthy amount of time and loyalty. If the wife doesn’t go all-in with the husband…she is a hindrance…and the wife becomes competition for Bob’s time and agenda.

    You are not alone. Many share your pain and have experienced what you have. I know you are alone in the family context…Church over family…ministry first, then God, then a way distant third is family.

    It is wrong what’s happened to you…it is not “of the Lord”…I will be praying for you. Contact me if there’s anything I can do to help (see the contact section).

  75. Alone…
    First of all, you are not alone…now. In the past year, due to the power of the internet to give a voice to these stories of oppression, many hundreds of people who wimpered away from CCV in years past have reunited to encourage each other, pray, and seek restoration of hope after having their faith in God shakened by bob grenier. In time you too will find it easier to speak about it. Lean on us if you need to.

  76. When I first began attending CCV I liked it very much. I had/have many troubles in my life. I was ready to really let go of all and allow GOD into my heart and my life as I should. Sadly, I quickly saw many problems and my defenses went up. I have trust issues as it it, but the things I have seen and heard have made me turn away from CCV, and church all together. It is no wonder some people are afraid of “religion”. I have been alone and not attended church in some time. I want to find the strength and trust to know that the only thing I need to stay away from in CCV and Paster Bob, not GOD. I will find my way someday. I feel so good, and validated that I am not alone in my experiences at CCV, but saddened at the things I have read. I am so sorry Alex for all that you have and your brothers have been through. And for the many others too!

  77. This is a bit off topic, but if someone doesn’t comment on this particular page, it doesn’t show up to click on anywhere. How do I navigate to find certain pages, like this one, when someone hasn’t commented?

  78. To Alone, I completely understand where you are coming from. I would point you to Visalia EV Free by Redwood High. I have never seen more stable and godly people in one church as I have there. The Lord has choosen that I be somewhere else and I’m happy where the Lord has placed me, but go there. And yes, do not put your hope in man, put your hope in God! God does love you, more than you even realize! They also have a great counseling program if you are in need.

  79. Alone, I agree with Tina about the counseling and getting your sites set on Jesus. Frankly at this point no church will be a help to you. All churches are full of sinners and you are going to hurt if you put your trust in them before your security is set in the Lord. My family and I experienced the same thing after CCV. We hopped from church to church, trying to find the right blend between humble preacher, good preaching and children’s ministry. We couldn’t find it and we tried them all. It wasn’t until we gave up, sought biblical counseling and put our hope squarely on Jesus again, that we found a church home. Not a perfect church with perfect people, far from it… the change was in us and that came from the Lord. Biblical council will point you back to the cross, back to the basics of our faith. Then it is up to you and the Lord. Cast off all the religious junk and rest in the arms of our Savior. He will help you move past churchianity and when you are ready He will point you towards a new group of believers who gather to worship. But remember whenever the people get you down, that Jesus is the one who died for us so that we may live. Start over and set your eyes on Jesus.

  80. Good words Not Alone. I don’t think pure religion ever intentionally means to be oppressive to our souls. Most of the time we see religion as a set of moral codes to follow. Pure religion, biblically speaking, is Truth. The danger comes when we try very conscientiously to drum up the devotion on our own to be faithful to the religious code we understand is our guide for healthy living. Because we have a sin nature, we will always fall way short of the ideal moral code. That reality leads our hearts into dispair and oppressive thoughts. It’s when we realize that a living, breathing, openly honest relationship with the living God is the only way to avoid a self-absorbed sense of failure, that we will ever experience true religious/spiritual freedom. We should never allow a professional pastor to pressure us into complying with a certain ‘way we do things here’ mentality. He should always encourage us to listen to the clear instructions of God, and ask for the empowerment that only comes from God, to be joyfully obedient to God’s leading. We should always be alert and discerning when oppressive tactics become the culture of any religious establishment.

  81. Always remember alone, people are murderd,familys torn apart,churches put each other down,people who truley need help are left out in the cold all in the name of religion.I too had trust issues in people before i found the lord, then saw that some who attend church arent trustworthy either.But God opend my eyes and i realized that even though some people cant be trusted Jesus always can .Me and my family just attended church for the first time in over 2+ years and it felt great.Alone please find a good church and start going again you will be bleased.And Alex may God bless you and your family.And thanks to Tina for pointing us CVCC it was a breath of fresh air.God bless to all of you.

  82. Thank you for sharing Henry. What you learned could only come from God. Let’s think just for a moment. When you or I look in the mirror each day do we see a reflection of perfection? No. In fact, the longer we live, we generally see that we fall farther short of perfection than we ever admited when we were younger. If we dwell on that reality, we will both plunge headlong into dispair. We don’t die of dispair do we? Why? Because God refuses to allow us to. Now look at the Church here on earth. It is made up of little people like you and I who sin far too much and tempt God’s grace. Why do we place such high expectations on the Church to be nearly a perfect place to hang out? Because we don’t apply what we know about ourselves…our own imperfection. Because it is a human institution, it is going to fail at times just like we do. So if we place our trust in the church, it will lead to disappointment ultimately. That is why God has always said for us to follow Him. He never disappoints. You have learned a difficult lesson through the trials you experienced, and look at the gentleness you expressed to Alone because of it. Praise God for his faithfulness.

  83. Amen wide awake and also to everyone take time today and read the daily devotion MY UTMOST FOR HIS HIGHEST it talks about how churches should be and the body of CHRIST(all believers).

  84. Wow… I had no idea.
    Now my heart this heavy. So sorry for you all.
    You guys were good kids! And Gayle was so sweet.
    You have my love and prayers.

  85. If the truth doesn’t catch up with you, the Web Bots will…

    Bob must be under legal advicement not to deal with this.

    He would be wise to gather you, your brother and Mother together in front of the congregation and confess guilty as charged, if even only half of this story were true.

    However, the lawyers have probably gotten to him.

  86. Scott…I believe you are absolutely correct. There are several CC players that are potentially in deep dodo if this is anywhere near correct. I am convinced their lawyers are monitoring this. Bob himself once said he thought he would have made a good attorney. Not only is Bob silent but Kevin, Brent, and Jeff are too. Not one CC or CCV leader dares stick their neck out now.

  87. I am normally not the guy to submit comments on people’s sites, but for this post I just had to do it. I have been searching in your blog a lot recently and I am really impressed, I think you could really become one of the main voices for your niche. Not sure what your free time is like in life, but if you began devoting more time to posting on this site, I would bet you would begin seeing a lot of visitors soon. With advertisements, it might become a great second revenue stream. Just an idea to think about. Good luck!

  88. Casey, I am not sure what your motive is in posting this…but I’m interpreting it as a smear that somehow this is about money (either that or it’s slick spam that made it through the filter). I will probably remove your post for that reason. I am intentional in not wanting to profit from this terrible situation. One of the things that turns my stomach is how some pastors within Calvary Chapel, in my opinion, get enriched through the “work of the Lord”.

    …while some CC pastors are compensated “reasonably” for their area, some live a modest lifestyle…some are bi-vocational…some receive no income…some barely make it…they just serve the Lord.

    I have enough “free time” to do what I believe the Lord compels me to do.

  89. Mere talk and good intentions avail nothing. Act! Do good! 1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and truth. (Quick Scripture Reverence for Counseling third edition – John G. Kruis) I also thought about the story of the good Samaritan. Lets change the story a bit and insert those who have been wounded in the church, brothers and sisters in Christ, the Grenier sons, Gail, those who received bad counsel, the verbally abused staff members and lets look at those who just walk by, the current pastor,the pastors of other churches, the leaders and board members of the church who say they don’t want to get their hands dirty. Now who is the man who stops to help the wounded on the side of the road? Is it you?

  90. Look, if some high minded morals prohibit you from accepting Casey’s generous offer, that is your lapse and character failure. However, this failure can be fully reconciled with your gentile upbringing…although your Dad seems to show signs of managing well his “family business” at CCV, so maybe he has some “chosen” in him from my line.

    Please forward Casey’s information so I can exploit this wonderful offer from a brother. This man has a gift and his heart is obviously in the right place in being such a “Christian man.”

  91. Guys, Casey’s post is spam. Isn’t that obvious? He writes nothing, not a word, that is specific to this blog. That post could be posted (and likely is) on literally ANY and EVERY blogsite. He doesn’t even end with a God Bless, but a good luck. Delete it and move on.

  92. AV – Jeff was being funny. Sometimes he tries and it doesn’t work, but this time he got a giggle out of me :)

  93. A few thoughts from Bob Grenier’s midweek lecture:
    Ps 20-22. He shared about a friend of his who on his way to the Rotary luncheon, ran out of gas. A little desparate for help, a homeless man on a bike helped him get gas. As the story continued, Bob suggested to this friend that they buy the homeless man some shoes, clothes, etc. Endearing story. He followed that by mentioning CCV involvement in providing baby showers for unwed mothers. Earlier in the lecture, Grenier described the last moments of Jesus on the cross saying,”Why have you forsaken me?” He said that the Father had forsaken his son for the sacrifice of sin. Then he said, “Can you imagine you own child looking you in the face and saying Why have you forsaken me?”
    You don’t have to imagine it Bob. Your three oldest sons, in real time, are asking the question so loudly, the whole world can hear. Why can’t you? And we find it very suspect that you would suggest such compassionate care for a homeless man, and care nothing for your own flesh and blood.

  94. Sort of reminds me of the pastor who preaches loudly against the evils of homosexuality or pornography, with no touch of grace or sympathy to those in bondage to sin – only to one day discover the pastor was leading a second life.

    Amazing.

    If those messages are online, you should link to that one and archive it here for the future, Alex.

  95. They are all online. Audio and video is available.

  96. There is a cc pastor who I will not identify who hates gay people and acts very macho. Turns out he was abused by a gay pastor in his youth. He will eventually be caught in a gay affair himself. such hypocrites!

  97. Alex, after I read the FresnoBee story, I have to advise you to consult a Constitutional Law attorney because the police dept is definitely violating the US Constitution

  98. Hello Alex. How my heart goes out to you and your brothers, and the rest of the family who have suffered under BG. I am embarrassed to admit that when I first got involved with CCV in early 1990 I had “gut-level” suspicions (I had just left an 8 year career in law enforcement). I never followed up on them because I had been swept away by the charisma of my new pastor – BG. I accepted the words of Bob’s loyal ones when they said, “He has a lot of problems with those two (you and Geoff)”.

    I vividly recall a weekday afternoon (late summer/early fall 1990) in the old office on Sunnyside when Geoff was meeting with BG in his office. The conversation escalated verbally and could be heard by everyone in the office (those were very thin walls). At one point during this very loud, heated argument there was suddenly several loud crashes which came from inside the office. I remember jumping to my feet and asking the office secretary (PB) if he (Bob) needed help. She calmly told me to relax and indicated that Bob was just fine. She went on to tell me that this was “nothing” compared with previous incidents of “knock down, drag out” physical violence which had taken place. She assured me that “Geoff is so big and strong… he can be a real handful sometimes”. After more shouting back and forth Geoff stormed out of the office and left. BG emerged a few moments later very sweaty and red faced, and apologized to me for having to experience this father-son issue. With the look of an exasperated and concerned father he told me how much “my son Geoff needs prayer”. Right there I had become hooked by a master deceiver and began to blindly accept the party line, believing that such a humble man could never… you know the rest.

    The next four years of my life was filled with very faithful service at CCV. The more involved I became (especially with things going on behind the scenes) only allowed me to see firsthand the depth of the favoritism/politics, the intentionally false and misleading statements made from the pulpit, the lying, the blatant hypocrisy (mask wearing), the cover ups… anyone who has ever peeked behind the CCV curtain KNOWS that these things have happened, and undoubtedly continue to happen.

    I applaud you Alex for bringing the abuses (at every level) to light. You have graciously attempted resolution at the church level, at the “denominational” level, and at every level you could. There is no other forum left but this. Shame on the CC pastors and CCV’s so-called elders who refused to be men of God and allow you to bring these matters to them at a non-public level. Shame on them!

    God bless you and Amy and your young family. I wish you nothing but wisdom, strength, and courage as you move forward. I pray that you can allow the things that you experienced from BG to be used to mold you into being a really great husband and father. From my own experience I can tell you that it’s possible.

    You have my complete and unqualified encouragement Alex.

    Jon D.

  99. Alex,

    It breaks my heart to hear these things and to see what has gone on behind “closed doors” and also blatantly in front of people for years. My family used to go to CCV when I was a child, and suffice it to say, I was way too young to know what was going on and can’t actually say anything happened to me specifically. But after reading the Fresno Bee article this morning and recalling some of the things that happened to my family and people that I’ve known my entire life, my heart continues to break.

    My entire life, I’ve grown up knowing things that were going on and that had gone on, as well as what was said to and about my parents when they left the church in late 1994. It shocks me even to this day that such things can take place in the church.

    Having been a member of a church, and an employee of a church that was so well referred to as one of Bob’s “blacklisted” churches, I remember days in the office when he would meet with my employer and rebuke him of how he ran his church. He would frequently attack our church and my pastor, telling him what he was teaching was sinful, and ironically, accusing him of the same things Bob had been doing for years. A few years ago, several people of our church left because of a misunderstanding between the pastor and some members. Several left and found refuge at CCV, and were quickly “refreshed by the sound, doctrinal teaching.” Through other sources, I know he actively called out our church in a conference CCV held at their facility and called our pastor out, who was sitting in the room at the time.

    My prayer is simply that now that this has all come to light, something will be done about it and Visalians and ex-CCV attenders can stop living in true fear of what Bob and his minions have done for years. I’ve grown up around people who are truly fearful of what the consequences may be if they speak out, and quite honestly, I’ve always had a sense of fear when hearing about him and what he has done. Thank you Alex for putting this out there. I hope it brings hope to those who have none anymore.

  100. So Alex, what is your take on the Fresno Bee story? Do you think the reporting was fair? And how well do you know Andy Mangano? If he has known Bob for 30+ years I would assume you are at least familiar with him.

  101. would you sheeple stop cowering in fear at these hitler types and do something! organize protests and call the media, call the Governor’s office, call Obama, call Oprah and go on here show and put some pressure on this out of control pastor! Nothing will happen without pressure!

  102. Alex, I know just how you feel for I too am a victem of every type of abuse as a child at the hands of my parents. I related with everything I’ve read on your articals especially your sister with the sexual abuse. Hang in there and My prayers are with you and your family. A sister in recovery, Crickett

  103. “Be not deceived, God is not mocked!”
    In continuing his charade, Bob is mocking God.
    As one who has seen the possibilities of this in regards to CC doctrine, I can only pray that you allow God to guide you through this! SPEND LOTS OF TIME ON YOUR KNEES!
    God bless you Alex, and your brothers. Man will let you down- God, never!

  104. Bob Grenier is an example of the Moses Model on steroids. Let’s continue to pray for Alex that the Lord will continue to strenghten, embolden and empower him in this crucial ministry of reconciliation with his family.

    Pray also that today’s article in the Fresno Bee will serve as a cautionary tale to other CC pastors who abuse their authority and who become abusive with the sheep when confronted with the truth instead of dealing with the problem head on. May they quit the abusiveness and once and for all denounce the Moses Model while Grace abounds which is far better than having to endure the Majestic Wrath of God.

  105. I would sure like to hear a response to today’s Fresno Bee article from Raul Ries (Calvary Chapel Golden Springs), Gary Ruff (Calvary Chapel Foothills) and David Rosales (Calvary Chapel Chino Valley). David Rosales went somewhat ballistic on the CT blog when they published an article about CSN/ Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. I would expect the same kind of response in this case rather than a truthful admission that the board may have had a chance to prevent this.

    Luke 12:3 Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops.

    Whatever anyone may think of the Grenier brothers on this (I for one believe them), it is important to note the God used Absalom as a tool for judgment upon the house of David. What David did in the secret of night, Absalom dishonored him in the light of day.

    Unfortunately, too many of Bob’s peers will no doubt offer support as this type of thing probably hits a bit too close to home for many of them.

    2Samuel 12:11,12 Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give [them] to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did [it] secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.

    This is not a glorious day. No doubt it pains the Grenier brothers to see this go so far. It pains me to read it and should serve as a sever warning to the church at large. Looks to me like judgment has fallen on Bob and upon his house and no doubt, it will be a long, hot summer in the San Joaquin Valley.

  106. David Rosales used to be my pastor, and I’m so disappointed in his lack of action. When I started attending Calvary Chapel Ontario(as it was known back then)23 yrs ago, David was a caring, compassionate man of God. Of course, this was when the church was relatively small by CC standards. I can’t help but think when these pastors reach mega church status something is lost.

  107. I am a neighbor of Bob’s & I just read the Fresno Bee article.I remember when the kids were growing up & I would hear screams coming from his house.I though Bob or their mother must be whipping them,but never said anything.Then one day another neighbor told me she didn’t like Bob because he beat his kids.It was then when I spoke to her about hearing screams coming from their house & thought they were whipping the kids.I never thought that all this abuse was going on or I would have called the police.You just never know what goes on behind closed doors.

  108. Carol~ Stories like these are becoming more and more common. SAD!! I remember him saying all his neighbors didn’t like him or something to that effect over the years, I can imagine!! I have yelled at my kids, I won’t lie, but I can assure you this, my neighbors can’t hear. If they can, I hope someone would call. Thank you so much for commenting, it makes their story more valid to the ones that question it all. You had no idea, and now all of us that question to call or not, do, if they are innocent, then no harm done!!

  109. From the visitors map it looks like readers from all 50 states are reading this. Tell a friend people, spread the word. Don’t let it die with this story. Call you television news stations and put the heat on. Hopefully Lew Griswold will do a followup and cover the rest of the story; drugs, theft, spousal abuse, wrongful termination, death council, slander and spiritual abuse.

    Our city government and law enforcement has let us down and they are covering for BG. VPD, DA Department, Mayor’s office, you all know what has been shouted at you for over a year now. Come clean and remove this man from civil service, take his gun away before someone gets killed.

    STOP THE COVER UP!
    VPD RELEASE THE RECORDS!
    DA OFFICE DO YOUR JOB AND ARREST THIS MAN!
    LOCAL SPINELESS PASTORS IN THE KNOW–DO SOMETHING!!!!

  110. What many of you read this morning in the Fresno Bee is literally the tip of the iceberg. I wish none of this were true but it is. Bob Grenier’s actions have brought a terrible stumbling block to many who long for a meaningful spiritual life. I would just like to point out that though this is a very tragic and troubling story, it should not deter any true seeker of truth from finding the person of Jesus Christ to be the only truly reliable and trustworthy person who ever lived.

  111. Well then Carol, I would hope that you would come forward in a place of greater exposure to give greater support and corroboration to the brothers.

  112. I did just that undercover.I called an left my phone # as well as a message with the reporter that wrote the article in the Fresno Bee.Hopefully he will return my call soon.

  113. I am curious as to how people who attend this church are reacting to this blog. If people aren’t wondering and demanding accountability, there is seriously something wrong with them.

  114. Alex, praying for you and yours.

  115. I can no longer stand behind an anonymous name knowing what Alex, Amy, Geoff and Paul are going through. I began being involved a year ago on the first site on Topix under the name Hurt2. I have told my story regarding bob grenier and I along with my former husband attended his church 20 years ago. Again, this was 20 years ago and we had friends come to us in confidence with horrendous stories of pain that was inflicted by bob. In the past 20 years this scenario has played over and over and continues. I pray that the article in the Fresno Bee will help bring bob to repentance, along with his inner circle and CC pastors Raul Reis and David Rosales. Shame on them for not reporting witnessing the child abuse all those years ago. As pastors isn’t that illegal? And now to sit on bob’s board and do nothing when Alex seeks their help.
    And Andy Mangano, I knew him personally and I was shocked to say the least when I read his quotes in the Fresno Bee. It makes me wonder if bob has something on these men in order to keep them silent. I am only stating this because I don’t think it would be the first time. This is my opinion, but it is certainly something to ponder….
    Carol, I applaud you for calling the reporter and leaving your name and number. I know how difficult it is to suspect a neighbor abusing their children. It happened to me at one time. I attempted to talk with her and then called the authorities.

  116. It is so awesome that people are coming out and putting their real names on this site. It is sad that we all fear the “wrath of bob” and stay anonymous. God is on our side and I encourage all of you to pray about it. For some reason, it gives more clout to your posts, just the way the human mind is. Not that any of us are lying, but it makes the bond stronger and bigger. I commend you Janelle.

  117. For what it is worth, I want you to know that I BELIEVE YOU. Every single word of your story cries the words of truth.

    My heart is breaking for you while you go through this journey of healing. Being a victim of a dysfunctional abusive childhood myself, I still can not imagine the pain and frustration you must feel knowing your father carries on his portrayal of a righteous man. GOD knows his sins, and GOD has not turned his back on you. You are taking the steps necessary for closure… and you have every right to get this out of your heart publicly!

    It is sad knowing that a person can have so much influencial power over a community that would cause the appointed officials who have been sworn to “Protect and To Serve” to protect the perpetrator instead of the VICTIM!

    Again, I am saddened by this unethical choice your protectors have forced upon you, especially, your father. To cause such physical and emotional pain your family is EVIL in itself…but to turn your back on your child’s attempt to heal the emotional wounds caused by you, is monsterous.

    I pray that you find some inner peace with your healing process. GOD bless you and your family.

  118. I too, choose to use my real name. The damage to my life from CCV I can date all the way back to early childhood. I was attending this church, as a child, back when it was in the YMCA building. I remember being 4 years old and watching “Pastor Bob” preach in cutoffs and a tee shirt. What a change. I did awanas and the works, and the older I got the more I didn’t like. I was always really quiet, and one of the boys was my age, and he was someone, growing up, that I always wished I could’ve known better than I did, but it was made clear to me I was not good enough to talk to him, or be around him, and it came from Pastor Bob & his wife, so I did not push the issue. When my dad I was 6, my dad was diagnosed with Colon cancer. It was considered to be a fatal case, they took out 27″ of his transverse colon & Pastor Bob WOULD NOT come & visit him. My dad worshiped the ground he walked on, because of the life he [Pastor Bob] came from, and the change he made to the “man he became.” Dad was crushed that he wouldn’t come & see him. Pastor Jim did. Once. Brought him a bag of sermons on tape. Sat there for a few minutes in silence & left. That’s when I first decided I didn’t like Pastor Bob, because he wouldn’t come see him while he was in the hospital. Or when he came home, for that matter. Fast forward. Then when I was 15, I was raped. I was a virgin. (Despite my “lower social status” in Pastor Bob’s eyes… I was a good girl.) I was traumatized, terrified, no one believed me. Your dad didn’t believe me. Told me I was making it up for attention. If it did happen I was covering up what really happened, etc. Over the course of several months there were many offensive things I was told, none of which were true, SO much more than I can dredge up to write about. His “PROFESSIONAL OPINION” was enough that it was a contributing factor to the man getting off scott free. LITERALLY. It was not solely his fault. I had a taped confession from the guy over the phone, and so much more evidence, and Pastor Bob stood by his opinion, and went in the report, and went all the way to the decision. I will never forget, sitting in a litigation room, being 17 years old, looking at a female attorney who was defending my assailant, who stared at me and said, “Even this girl’s own pastor doesn’t believe her. She has no credibility.” :( There is a lot more I could say, but it just doesn’t matter, to be honest. I abandoned my faith shortly after. I’ve looked back once. I wrote to Paul. But, here I am, 26, still injured by what I’ve mentioned here & the many other things I haven’t dove into, and unable to justify any of it, and truthfully lacking the “answers from God” making it impossible to change how I believe now. I read the article in the bee today. It broke my heart. I literally cried. I too, remember Paul as “a little awana boy” and his bright eyes and his bright smile and how I always saw him (and still see him, to this day) in my minds eye as a pillar of strength. Even moreso now. It truly, breaks my heart to read this that you guys went through, and while some of my thoughts & input I cannot bring myself to say publicly, I have shared a tip of the iceberg, with Paul, and I truly admire the courage you boys have coming forward & pressing charges after all these years. I wish I could say I was surprised about VPD, but I’m not. I just hope, and in my own way pray, that you find the resolution & justice you deserve. I hope you fare better than most do, and at the very very least, I WISH Pastor Bob would take accountability for his actions, and accept responsibility, and apologize (not that it fixes anything, but acknowledgment gives room to heal). I think I could probably write pages more, so I am going to close here. I wish you all, all the best. <3 Faith

  119. You certainly have expressed yourself well in the midst of your own pain. If you sense a need to reveal more so you can bring this more to a closure for yourself, then feel free to. We understand your pain to a limited degree. Our stories are slightly different but similar in that we experienced a severe challenge to our faith as well. We are all hoping that these experiences will draw us together in the true spirit of love Jesus was so good at showing to the often forgotten.

  120. I believe it all. You all will be in my prayers from this day forward…

  121. Faith~ Your story brought tears to my eyes. Your journey so far in life seems very painful. I remember when an employee would come from the Child Protection Agency to my children’s classroom and speak to them about sexual abuse. They would tell them if anyone touched them inappropriately to tell their parents, teacher, policeman or pastor because they were safe. And then for you to have to go through that, must have been like one article here is titled, “It felt like I was being raped all over again!” Teachers and pastors are mandated by law to report these matters to the local authorities. Shame on bob, how many more has he emotionally raped who have not spoken out?
    Think deeply about these personal stories and ask yourselves if a man who has abused his own children and children like Faith why;
    1) He is still in a leadership position where he is in contact with children, possibly your children?
    2) Why hasn’t/isn’t there been criminal charges that will be taken before the court and judged? He should have to face the consequences of his actions…
    Someone had commented that if the Catholic Church is legally held accountable for the many boys being abused by priests up to 40 years ago why isn’t bob (IMO)?
    I guess I answered my own question in that the difference is they had been sexually molested. I pray that he is not guilty of this crime, but if he has done this to anyone, please notify Alex…..

  122. If this is your first time visiting this site I would strongly encourage you to read the other stories that appear here and can be found under the July Archives. In,” A Jar of Change?” Alex talks more about the abuse he went through beginning at the age of only 5. In, “Brutal,” Paul speaks more in detail about the abuse that he and his brothers have experienced. Sadly, what you read here is only the very tip of the iceberg, as the abuse goes so much deeper and much of the psychological abuse continues to this day.
    Alex and Paul~ Would you consider writing more about the abuse or cut/paste the posts from the other site? Many people are just now aware that there is much, much more to these stories….
    I now pray that the Times Delta will pick up this story and investigate it.

  123. If you have read Alex’s and others accounts of abuse you would have to conclude that this so called ‘pastor’ is not human – he is demon-possessed! and why has the ‘leadership’ of Calvary Chapel done nothing? Because they are a part of the beast system. All mega church organizations are corrupt at the top. The Vatican is the ultimate example of this. God is not a part of any mega church. Get out of the mega churches and stay far, far away! You will lose contact with your Creator!

  124. I hope more people come forward about it also. I’ve shared a larger part of my story with Paul, because I know him & it doesn’t scare me to talk to him. I’ve learned to live with my problems, but the knowledge of these things happening to other people, I can’t just sit by & do nothing. I hope times delta picks it up too. I’d have given anything in the world to know about this from this church sooner. I don’t think I’d feel as jaded about it & maybe we could’ve worked to stop it. I’m honestly too angry, to post more of my personal side right now. This, today is information overload, and I am processing the pain of people I care about, which is much more important to me than my pain. I will not fall off the radar though, as I told Paul, I will do whatever I can to help. It is my first day on this blog, but I will read the other entries as I can. I’ve been having issues getting the page to load for hours.

  125. Glad that you are here Faith, most of us are castaways also. I have found that most of the castaways have a comradery to love people instantly and want to help. You are not alone anymore.

  126. You have many praying for you now.

  127. Re: “castaways”

    Matt Dewitt pegged it for me recently when he described it as “Disposable friendship”.

    Faith, there are plenty of people here that understand the emtional turmoil that comes with remembering these unresolved hurts from the past. You are not alone and it’s not your fault.

  128. Faith, I am not sure if I know you or not. I came to the church in 95 until 2007 so I am not sure! I can feel the pain in your post and want you to know, finding this site, may be the resolution and counsel you need! The people on here know, more than ANYONE, what pain is. Your account is one of the more painful ones and I am not sure if you read the post on the girl who was molested by her step father and Bob told her not to talk. How sad! You have MANY prayers going out to you. I can see how you would fall away from God, but you have to realize that Bob is NOT God. God has been waiting and waiting for you to come back to HIM! Not a church or a man. I am so glad Paul has been there for you, that is awesome!! I understand this is raw and new, but we have all been blogging on this for almost a year now and Alex recently made this site and it is so much better. It explains everything. I would advise you to read all that you can before you post. It is very healing and you may find comfort. I really hope that you call out to God and know what Bob did to you is not the God we know. He is a horrible representation of God. You will find loving, caring and compassionate people on here. Noone will think any less of you and we will believe you. This is a place for confessions and healing. I am praying for you and know many more are too. Stay strong and Don’t leave us here. We will help you with God!!!

  129. I understand Faith and am so glad that you are confiding in Paul, as I completely trust him also. I too wish that you would have known about it earlier, as it does bring about healing. Healing can take a very long time, but KNOW that you have many who care about you here and are surrounding you in love and our prayers….
    Paul knows me and if I can help in any way let Paul know that he has my permission to give you my email address…
    In His Love,
    Janelle

  130. Faith, my heart is broken for you. Please know that there are so many people on here who will be faithful to pray for you.

  131. All I can say is, “It’s about time.” There are many emotions swirling around now. Yesterday finally completely uncapped the pent-up secrecy of this terrible story. On the one hand, I am embarrassed to have ever been associated with Bob Grenier. My shock and awe happened well over a decade ago, and I have been nurtured back into a vibrant faith because of the steadfast love of Jesus. At this point in my life, I am much more aware of the fragileness of human devotion. We fail each other very much. Much of that failure is usually not intentional. In this story, Bob Grenier has had a pattern of bully-like behavior to some of the nicest people I know. His actions are far from unintentional. I do not hate Bob Grenier. I have pity for him. I also think he must give an answer to all this. The Church at large demands that he face up to these horrific claims. In his most recent words, “I am going to give him an invitation to stand to his feet, come to the front of the Church, and repent of his sins committed before a Holy God, and perpetrated on innocent, trusting souls.”

  132. Alex & family I am very sorry to hear of this abuse. It is appauling that your step-father can not come to terms with his own sin. I have to wonder if Bob feels that “Jesus” told him this abuse was o.k.

  133. Bob Grenier will eventually be a case study. Think about it. He completely compartmentalized his ‘worklife’ as a pastor from his relational life at home and with others. From his life in totality, we are forced to conclude that he was just a clever charade. He was a carefully planned circus act. He sang the song but never internalized its meaning.
    He has become quite adept at explaining his false life as a life completely covered by the ‘grace of God.” I wouldn’t question that except that a sincere follower of the kindest man on earth…Jesus…would not consistently do harm as he has these past 30 years. I know this will sound cruel but if Grenier were to die, more people would attend his burial just to have the chance to add a spadefull of dirt to the grave than to shed a tear and share a heartfelt memory.

  134. It is very sad and disgusting knowing that the only way to bring about accountability in the flawed CC leadership system is thru blogs and the media. An abuse victim should not have to go outside the church
    to find justice. But if that’s what it takes, then so be it. I would not be surprised if more of these blogs started popping up all over the web.

    Bob needs to step down permanently for his moral failings. He can be completely forgiven and even have deep repentance and be restored. He can even find a place of ministry in any local church that will have him. But he cannot ever return to the position of senior pastor. He can be forgiven and deemed above condemnation but he can never again be ‘above
    reproach’ you get one shot at that. In fact, a repentant pastor may actually, in some cases, have a better witness to a hurting community and be a
    visible example of the grace of God serving in a non-pastor position. He cannot be restored to the oringinal office…. ever. Forgiveness is complete, as King David learned, but the consequences of our sins may follow us all of our lives, which David also learned.

    Bob and other rogue CC pastors must receive complete forgiveness but not reinstatement as senior pastors. Even criminals are forgiven but they forfeit their
    right to vote.

  135. I do NOT ask this question to imply any nonsense about size equating to God’s blessing or whatever.

    I just am curious..how big is this church? On a typical Sunday morning, how many attend and how many services…not counting the small children in the childrens ministry (I am assuming that like most CCs, little kids are not in the main service on Sundays).

    Thanks for answering my curiosity

  136. This type stuff is exactly why I left Calvary Chapel(s). Having been a sheep in the CC system for 15 I found the pastors had no accountability. The “elders” were hand picked buddies who very rarely go against teh pastor, as seems to be the case here as well. Its the cult of pastor at CC and he is often put on a pedestal and folks jockey to get into the “in crowd” at the church and get tight with the pastor and his wife. Pride reigns. I am sorry for the suffering of this family under this man. And for all of you who say “we are sinners and so is Bob” PLEASE-that is an excuse that simply enables these men along their merry way of destroying lives. Gee now left me go grab my surf board and an In n Out burger and my mug with the dove on it-its so…Calvary Chapel. I’m so glad I left this “club”.

  137. Another Voice,
    I have the CCV 2004 church directory and there are approximately 500 families listed. Can’t say for sure how many regularly attended because there were 3 services and many people don’t know each other. I went through the directory a couple of days ago and counted 60 families that I knew who left after we did 4 years ago, some very recently. There have been several mass exoduses over the 20 plus years that we attended and I lost count of those long ago.

  138. I just found the 1998 directory, I should do the same thing. I am not sure who is still there and who isn’t either but I bet there are MANY gone that we just ‘forgot’ about. Sad!

  139. 3 services for that number of people is like what, 300 a service maximum?

    I ask mostly because of the whole ‘lock the doors once the message starts’ – Costa Mesa does this, but there I always thought it made sense. It is a huge sanctuary, thousands seated, and if you had a dozen or so people throughout getting up and walking all the way up the aisle, then all the way down – it would be distracting. Plus, they have a nice setup for someone to stay outside and watch the conclusion of the message. It is NOT about a power trip there, I am convinced.

    Grenier seems to be copying Costa Mesa, but from what I can tell, without real reason. Yes, a person can distract, but with those small numbers it can’t happen very often.

    We don’t have such a policy. I feel that anyone who needs to get up probably has a good medical reason going on.

    Thanks for the number info.

  140. I’ve seen Costa Mesa be a template in many other churches. What works well and is necessary in Costa Mesa doesn’t always work in a small church, and the restrictions are perceived as a carnal demonstration of power. Either the pastor is unaware, ignorant or has no vision from God on how to logistically serve those who attend his fellowship.

  141. Because of these relatively frequent and characteristic exoduses from CCV, I have affectionately given them the name,”The Church of the Revolving Backdoor.” If it were Disneyland, they should have meters counting attendance out the exits. The numbers would be larger than entrance counts.

  142. I wonder if Jesus had a problem with the distractions and disturbances during the sermon on the mount? Did the disciples wear matching tunics and stand with arms folded watching for disorderly conduct? Did Jesus forbid children to come in? Bob was way too sensitive during a service; most of us were scared to move or turn our heads. The ushers have laminated cards they hand out to people so as not to disturb the “delicate genius”. These pastards need to get over themselves.

  143. This situation doesn’t surprise me at all. Most Christians feel it is their duty to be doormats, obey authority without question and can be easily manipulated into believing just about anything. The problem is they don’t use the brain God gave them. They don’t ask questions when something seems strange. They just want to fit in and have a social life at the church. So they will continue to be oppressed by the ‘upper classes’(the pastors and senior management). I have little hope that anything will ever change because the people in these churches are too dumbed down.

  144. My husband served as an usher for a while at CCV. He did it because someone asked him to. He said it was a horrible experience. Hated giving out those little laminated cards and asking people to be quiet. He asked for parking lot patrol just so he wouldn’t have to deal with the BS inside. I remember him saying that during one of their usher meetings Doug Garrison told him that he had to think of ushering as a business. That’s not right.

  145. I wonder if Jesus had a problem with the distractions and disturbances during the sermon on the mount?
    ——————————————-
    Probably not – since he separated from the multitudes and only spoke to the disciples on that occasion.

    I have no intention to defend Grenier or the obvious power-trip he is running when it comes to the service.

    I do think the dynamic is far different in a place like Costa Mesa.

  146. Regarding my comment on the Sermon on the Mount, my observation at first was that Jesus was only speaking to His Disciples, but Jesus’ message begins in chapter 5:3 continues through 7:27. Then 7:28 says, “When Jesus had finished saying these things, the CROWDS were amazed at His teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the Law.” Just my observation that in verse 7:28 “these things” refers to the things Jesus said in Matthew 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) and the crowds refers to those in 5:1

  147. I think it is safe to assume that there were crowds of disciples at this early point. By disciples, as I’m sure you know, the Bible is not talking about just the 12 – for it was of the total disciples that Jesus chose 12 to be apostles.

    He sent 70 out at one time by pairs. Also, John 6 is where He has a lot of disciples walk away from him.

    So it was a big audience :) But I don’t think there is any contradiction with the first vese of Ch 5 and the conclusion you cite.

    God Bless.

  148. A quote from a courageous man: ” Here and there people flee from public altercation into the sactuary of private virtuousness. But anyone who does this must shut his mouth and his eyes to the injustice around him. Only at the cost of self-deception can he keep himself pure from the contamination arising from responsible action.In spite of all that he does, what he leaves undone will rob him of his peace of mind. He will either go to pieces because of his disquiet, or become the most hypocritical of Pharisees.
    Who stands fast? Only the man whose final standard is not his reason, his principles, his conscience, his freedom, or his virtue, but who is ready to sacrifice all this when he is called to obedient and responsible action in faith and in exclusive allegiance to God-the responsible man, who tries to make his whole life an answer to the question and call of God. Where are these responsible people?
    From Dietrich Bonhoeffer, “Who Stands Fast.”

  149. I maintain that our gathering into churches is a worthless exercise unless that time of worship so inflames our hearts and minds that it sends us out into the dark world to reclaim territory for the advance of the Kingdom. We must never tolerate corruption in our own life, or in the life of our churches. Restoration begins there. Then we have an unhypocritical message to carry into a hostile world that has arrogantly turned their face against God.

  150. Faith:

    I am so impressed and in awe of your compassion toward other people. You had a horrible thing happen to you and against all odds you were able to over come this trauma and go on to be a loving, kind, and vibrant person. In spite of the many obstacles that stood in your way.

    I hope your story inspires people to keep their chin up in the midst of adversity. You give me a lot of hope.

    Paul

  151. embattled pastors living in sin who refuse to step down need to know that the Lord will see to it that the ministry does just fine in their absence; and i don’t mean financially fine or attendance fine because those are not the only/right ways to measure if a church is doing fine; but maybe those pastors won’t step down because their egos would be smitten when in their absence the church does as well or better! yikes!

  152. In an “extreme authoritorian environment like Bob has created” the only solution short of Divine intervention is to involve an independent neutral 3rd party, mediator/arbiter. Actually, some would argue that it would take Divine intervention for an abusive, authoritarian CC pastor like Bob to involve a neutral, non-CC associated unbiased, arbiter to help resolve an ongoing conflict that has taken on a life of its own and does not appear to be going away any time soon. Further, it is now abundantly clear that CCOF will not get involved due to their uncanny ability to be super selective on the issues in which they will get involved.

    I very much like the idea of Shaun Sells of Calvary Chapel Cheyenne to involve a neutral mediator. You can find Shaun’s postion on the PP blog. Here are some exerpts:

    Shaun Sells says:
    July 19, 2010 at 2:49 pm
    Our bylaws allow for outside mediation through a group called peacemakers if a dispute can not be settled locally. It is intended for situations of disagreement between the pastor and elders or board, but could be applied to any dispute. It has never been necessary, and hopefully never will.

    Michael says:
    July 19, 2010 at 2:55 pm
    Shaun,

    How do you set that up with Peacemakers?
    That sounds like a very viable solution.

    Shaun Sells says:
    July 19, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    Michael

    They have a website peacemaker.net.

    Basically they train mediators and will send one your way if there is a dispute. They have a seven step process they go through with the parties involved.

    Another church in town recently used this to settle a dispute with a group that split away from them and formed there own church. It went fairly well, and although the group did nit return, the two churches have settled their differences and the new one is now part of the same regional denominational fellowship.

    Like every other system, it will only work if both parties want reconciliation. It may be something for Alex or other members of CCV to pursue.

    There is also a book by the same name written by Ken Sande, a Jay Adams protege, which may turn some people off.

    Shaun Sells says:
    July 19, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    Michael

    They have a website peacemaker dot net

    Basically they train mediators and will send one your way if there is a dispute. They have a seven step process they go through with the parties involved.

    Another church in town recently used this to settle a dispute with a group that split away from them and formed there own church. It went fairly well, and although the group did nit return, the two churches have settled their differences and the new one is now part of the same regional denominational fellowship.

    Like every other system, it will only work if both parties want reconciliation. It may be something for Alex or other members of CCV to pursue.

    There is also a book by the same name written by Ken Sande, a Jay Adams protege, which may turn some people off.
    ———————————————-
    Pastor Shaun you’re a breath of fresh air!

    He even has a list of all kinds of churches on his website!

    Judging from the CC Cheyenne’s website, it doesn’t seem like a very big church with any significant conflict brewing. Yet the Holy Spirit led Shaun to put in place a sensible system of conflict resolution should they ever need it. Shaun understands that if a pastor is in conflict with a congregant/member the last person the Holy Spirit would use to speak truth or peace into the situation is the abusive pastor (or his associates or the abused for that matter) who is party to the conflict.

    The Dove is a symbol of the Holy Spirit but also a symbol of peace (see Gen 8 after the flood)…like 2 sides to the same coin. So isn’t it ironic that certain pastors of the ‘non-denomination’ dove-toting denomination are such experts at destroying peace within the local body?

  153. Here’s a nice picture of the Anointed ones.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wedesirehim/4785044487/

    I can see that hair is very important to all but 1. The 1

  154. Fear Not~ thank you for the opportunity, it was interesting…..

  155. saw the pic that Fear Not shared. Wow Gayle looks to be saying “help me” with her eyes, either that or she is out of it. Chuck looks like he is trying to concentrate on whatever bob is trying to get across. I agree on the hair though…Tammy Faye comes to mind.

  156. This a cut/paste from one of the comments that were left on Sunday’s article and it says it all;

    “Bob shouldn’t get away with this. The VPD shouldn’t deny these citizens the right to view their own police reports. The DA should release the records. Bob Grenier and the men on his staff, should be removed from the Chaplains service, until a full investigation has been made into these issues. There are several other issues that Bob has covered up, perpetrated by his staff and members. These should have been reported to the authorities by him and his staff under the guidelines of the Chaplaincy, but they were not. Both Pastor Grenier and his wife carry guns on them at all times. Doesn’t that sound weird to you. What pastor would need to carry a gun?

    According to the website we now have the following crimes committed by Bob Grenier;

    Child Abuse
    Drug Abuse
    Theft
    Unlawful Imprisonment
    False reporting of a sexual crime (at least twice)
    Most likely some tax evasion issues with staff members being classified as Pastors (who aren’t) for tax breaks.

    Non Legal offenses
    Spiritual abuse
    Unbiblical Counseling
    Harassment
    Slander
    Unlawful termination

    and the list continues to grow.

    It’s time for Bob Grenier to come clean, step down and face the music.”

    How much longer are we going to stand by and allow this to continue? Please read the blog, ” I felt like I was raped all over again,” Two women have come forth on the site and shared, ” a part,” of their stories. Just as any rape counselor would tell you, “for each person who comes forth, there are many more of them out there in silence!” Read the other blogs depicting the Grenier brother’s abuse. bob is still refusing to meet, what does this tell you about the character and mental state of this man? IMO, he is hiding even more than has been brought forth. An innocent man would be shouting it from the rooftops!

    “A malicious man disguises himself with his lips,
    but in his heart he harbors deceit.
    Though his speech is charming,
    do not believe him,
    for seven abominations fill his heart.
    his malice may be concealed by deception,
    but his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.”
    Proverbs 26:24-26

  157. I have listened to enough. Bob, you are fooling no one. You paint your sons, your neighbors, the girls who bore their hearts here, and the scores of former staff, pastors and members with a big brush and call them slanderers? What a self-deceived pompous arrogant fool you are. Pitooey! I don’t want to even use your name again. I am sick of your open faced deception. I just cannot believe my ears. You are the most self-inflated man I have ever known. I hope that you will someday be forced to answer for your mockery.

  158. wide awake, just finished watching the comedy hour as well. Pathetic.

    Bob is framing himself as King David. He’s always King David or Nehemiah (got to finish the wall…) when the heat is on. He did this same thing back in the mid-90′s when he almost had to go get a real job the last time the heat was on him.

    He is such a liar and manipulator. The Truth is not in him.

    His lies will keep getting exposed. More is coming out. Other options to hold him to account are being looked into. He’s not going to brush this all away from the pulpit like he’s successfully done in the past.

    There is too much exposure this time, too much corroboration, too many people coming forward. The community is seeing through Bob’s cloud of lies and deceit…and seeing him for who he really is…a charlatan, a liar, an abuser and a corrupt pastor. Shame on him for continuing to lie and deceive and thumb his nose at God and the rest of us.

    Bob mentions “reaping and sowing”…he got that right in tonight’s lecture…unfortunately he’s still sowing lies…so he’s got more reaping to come.

  159. I am also not surprised by Bob’s performance tonight…in fact it was expected.

    99.999999 percent of the human population would have some shame after being exposed on the front cover of a major regional newspaper…not Bob.

    He’s got a lot of practice in putting on a show…despite other serious issues going on in his life. He would be a raging cussing screaming mad-man, beating us on a Saturday night…and then turn on the smile and dull charm on Sunday morning…as if all was well in the world.

    I’m concerned for my mom and others who have to deal with him behind closed doors right now.

  160. He is a very sick man! A very sick man! I literally cannot believe my ears. All you CC pastors out there must go to this man’s website and listen to the drivel yourselve’s. He is contantly building autobiography week after week. As Alex says, he is literally taking on the personification of Nehemiah, and David. He reads from the text, blandly while looking down, then occassionally he looks up to make the not-so-hidden references about himself. He is simply a pathetic sick man. He is deceiving his church. He is weaving bold-faced lies, and twisting the truth in such a clever way as to leave the unmistakeable impression that his accusers are in the wrong. How can he possibly be telling the truth? I know for a fact that his ‘accusers’ are absolutely amazing upstanding citizens. He is not just choosing to disagree with them, he is making it appear that they are conspiring to take him down. He is choosing the high ground, the way of the Lord. What mockery! I am sick of his taking us as fools. Certainly the thousands now reading this blog are not fools.

  161. I wonder what the CCV congregants are thinking? Have they not read the newspaper? Bob will never admit any wrongdoing, I am convinced. This exposure is good and people have been contacting me from years past who have moved and are not one bit surprised by the behavior of the Bob. If you saints at CCV are reading this, please enlighten us why you would sit under Bob after all of this. You are no longer in the dark about Bob and other leaders there. The crazy thing is, I believe that if Bob would admit wrongdoing, people would immediately forgive him. He would really be doing himself a favor instead of digging a deeper ditch.

  162. Hello Alex, You may remember my wife and I bought your house on Dorothea. I am deeply saddened by this as well as what I read in the Fresno Bee. I remember my Father was a deacon in the Baptist Church many years ago. He resigned one day because of the problems he had with my brother. There was never any abuse but my brother at that time was very rebellious and committing petty crimes. He just felt that he must step down as a leader until the problems with my brother were resolved. And they eventually were. My prayers are with you and your parents … God Bless

  163. I’m trying to listen to BG’s Wednesday night propaganda. He is laying it on thick. It is disgusting.
    He is repetitively trying to show how David’s past sins are forgotten by the Lord. How David’s enemies (his own son) are trying to take him out and how David will not defend himself, but instead leave the defense to the Lord.

    Is that what Bob thinks he is doing? Does he think that he is like David, that the situations are similar in more ways than just the son/enemy? I am confused as to how he thinks that this is the same.

    Why does God allow this man to continue to twist scripture do defend his position?

  164. Who leads the womens ministry?

  165. As a friend of both Alex and Paul I am so sorry for what you have gone through and are continuing to suffer at the hands of a “man of God”. Bob is certainly not a man after God’s own heart. I hope this story is blown wide open and Bob’s empire crumbles. I hope that everyone affected by this man will look to Jesus who is our true shepherd, and find a new pastor who will say “follow me as I follow Christ.”

  166. Well, Well, Well! [Moderated]

    I don’t feel sorry for you….

  167. NA,
    Is that a threat?

  168. well, well, well, NA, it seems you’re going to hell for supporting child abuse!

  169. NA, you’ve been moderated.

  170. Saw NA’s post last night. Good call Alex, all things “in moderation” LOL. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. It’s the weekend Alex – let’s get ready to blog!

  171. I have read Topix from the beginning started by Not Alone, but have never posted until now. I have been shocked and amazed reading at how many peoples’ lives have been ruined by Bob, but more importantly, how their faith was destroyed. People on Topix have asked Alex over and over again on what he is going to do to stop the abuse of this man with God’s people. Why Alex? Why are you allowing Alex and Paul to do this by THEMSELVES, when hundreds of other people have been hurt by Bob? These boys have testified, gone on the record, and have put themselves out before the public. Just recently three brave women have come forth with their names and testimonies—Carol, Sarah, and Faith. Three WOMEN! Two of these have stories that are so horrible that most would never have the guts to publish them. I am amazed by their courage to stand up against this man when all the MEN of these blogs have chosen not to do so. I am a firm believer in, “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.” In fact I have wrestled with the meaning of this passage many times. However, I have also come to the conclusion that God uses people to do His works. How else are the poor fed, the gospel spread, or the Word taught? Yes, all these things must be done with a clear conscience before God through prayer, but God uses humans to accomplish His work. There are some who may not have a clear conscience to speak out, and I leave that between them and God. But there are others who do not speak out of fear. If this is the case, then Bob will continue. He will continue to abuse God’s flock, shatter families, and ruin peoples’ faith. When good people stand by, evil triumphs.

  172. Very well said Lisa. If we were in Great Britain, I would commend you for being “spot on” with your observations and comments.

    Men — you would do well to behave like men and to stand alongside the others who are speaking out. Be strong and of good courage. Step to the plate.

  173. In regards to today’s article in the Fresno Bee there are comments under Red Alert. I just now received an out of office reply from Lew Griswold that he will be out of the office until August 9, 2010. This was after I emailed him and I would encourage all of you to email him regarding this article. We are indeed in the middle of a spiritual battle and must remain on the front lines, as this is far from being over….

  174. Lisa…JonD may commend you but I do not.

    What makes you so sure that “all the MEN of these blogs” have merely stood by and watched? That is a very broad brushed and offensive statement to those who are working behind the scenes. Also the “guilt card” is a sorry motivator.

  175. Interesting message from Bob Grenier this morning.

    Demons, satan, gossip, slander…attacks from the devil, etc.

    In essence, he also claimed to have a “gift” at times to “see demons in people.”

    He was quite energized this morning…the “Bob Show” was in comeback mode…taking his animated shots from the pulpit at his “attackers” and “accusers”…who are liars and apparently either demon-possessed or demonically influenced…and Bob would know…he’s got the “gift”.

    I’ve certainly witnessed Bob looking demon-possessed with rage and anger…nearly foaming from the mouth and wild-eyed…right before he administered one of his beatings on us. Bob laid out a pretty good case this morning against himself for demonic influence.

    He also made a good point about “new converts” not being placed in a position of authority in ministry…as he was in Shiloh and CC…as the sin of devil…the sin of “pride” was a potential problem cited in Scripture.

    Bob mustered some man-made “power” this morning…but the true Power of the Holy Spirit has clearly left that building. It is sad to watch. Sin and lying are very destructive…and the devil certainly is attacking Bob…through Bob’s own pride, stubbornness, lying and sinfulness.

  176. …another comment on the “gift” Bob claims to have about his ability to “see demons in people”…

    …maybe it’s just your reflection Bob.

  177. Came to Pass, I hope you are right that men of God are truly working “behind the scenes.” Unfortunately, I have been one of those wounded sheep that has been fed that story that things are happening the scenes and then have sat by and watched while corruption and sin continued.
    If you are one that is indeed working behind the scenes, I pray that God is guiding and directing your every move and that there truly is some action taken to resolve this mess.

  178. I’m sure there are men trying behind the scenes…the problem is, Bob won’t submit to the authority of Scripture…and they can’t make him.

    So, that’s why 1 Timothy 5:19-21 is so important. At some point these men in leadership positions in Calvary Chapel need to stand up and do some stuff in front of the scenes, IMO.

    I’ve often wondered how a guy like Bob can get away with all the stuff he’s done and is doing for over 30 plus years…and now I know why. The “church discipline” only applies to the lay-people…the regular joe schmucks. Pastors are nearly untouchable if they aren’t self-regulating within Calvary Chapel.

    Now if Bob was alleged to have had a homosexual affair…different story altogether…that one’s taboo. He’d be out in a millisecond. However, beating your kids, abusing your spouse…well, those are “family matters”…and stealing money from the church, giving cult-like counseling and being a jerk to former staff and lay-people…no problem.

    That’s OK, God is in control and this will all be dealt with as He sees fit and in His timing. It just tempts me to disgust and frustration and sometimes anger…but not today. Praise God. It is a beautiful day and I have a wonderful wife and kids :smile:

  179. There is a steady critical mass growing, and when it reaches the appropriate time, many more will reveal who they are and you will see what has been done for the past year or more. Take heart.

  180. Praying!

    Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

    Love, Your Brother Joe

  181. Alex,

    Doesn’t Grenier teach through books of the Bible like most CCs.

    I ask because I am wondering if today and last midweek if he was deviating from whatever book he was in to ‘address’ the critics via a topical sermon….or….if he is staying in his normal book study and just using it to jump into this discussion.

    I must tell you, as a pastor, it is insane to me to use the pulpit to ‘address your critics’ at really any time, but all the more so when you won’t actually let your critics into the building.

  182. We went there for years. We were always TOLD that CCOV teaches through the bible. But I don’t recall hearing him ever teach out of anything but the 4 gospels on a Sunday morning. If he ever did it was years ago. I believe when we first started there he was teaching in the book of Luke and then he went to John, I can remember trying to figure out how long it might take him to get to the book of James. (one of my favorites) But then after he finished John he flipped right back to Matthew. It’s strange you bring this subject up because earlier today I checked on the CCOV website to see if I could find bob ever teaching from the book of Timothy. Couldn’t find anything. Does anyone else recall him ever teaching from that book. Perhaps he’s never read or studied it that’s why he doesn’t know how he should be conducting himself as a pastor.

  183. AV, Bob will spin it that it’s all “through the Bible” and just “coincidence” that he’s on these “topics” right now.

    However, look at the list of sermons on the CC site…King David, Nehemiah, Job, satan and demons.

    …classic Bob.

    He takes his shots at his critics from the pulpit…that’s his M.O. A leopard can’t change his spots.

    I’ve seen this many times over the decades. Bob was King David, Nehemiah and Job…and his “enemies” were “attackers from the devil” in the 90′s the last time Bob was in the soup and being challenged for financial misconduct and some other serious issues by his then associate pastors and elders.

    The Truth is, it’s no coincidence. Bob is a crafty and calculating (though predictable) scoundrel.

    Listen to the most recent Wednesday evening service…and this morning’s service and make up your own mind…doesn’t take the gift of discernment to connect those dots ;)

  184. Lori…yes, it would be great to see Bob do an in-depth series on 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

    …I’m guessing that somehow his “through the Bible” journey will detour before getting to those passages :smile:

  185. “The Bible clearly states that Christian leaders should be accountable both to the Word of God and also to God’s people, whom the leader serves. Among the requirements Paul describes for a Christian leader are that he be “blameless,” and “of good behavior” (1 Tim. 3:2). A Christian leader must “have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil” (1 Tim. 3:7). This does not mean that the Christian leader is simply good at covering up his sin. Christian leaders must display integrity and honesty — they must prove themselves worthy of Christians’ trust.”

    More of where this came from can be found here:
    http://www.answers.org/ethics/exposing_sin.html

    Bob should read the article. It includes a lot about David.

  186. as a former usher I had a brief encounter of a bad taste of Bob and it felt wrong and I had to talk to other ushers of this encounter. I was left hurt and this action pushed me away from the congregation to another church. The encounter left a bad taste in my mouth, I felt chastised and discipined for such a minor detail. But this coming from a pastor had an effect that I can still feel years later. I did recieve an apology after re-confronting Bob but the man behind the mask, had made enough of negative impact and fundementalistic aspects, that forced a move. This action and story may have nothing to do with nothing but, it impacted me to a point of leaving the church. This added, unbeknownst to me months after this initial story broke — my two cents.

  187. formerccv…thank you for your story and two cents worth. Everything that is shared, major or minor, continues to establish a pattern of behavior that is inexcusable for any leader of a church. If a pastor expresses himself in such a way that his behavior violates the trust of another brother, then he should be more than prepared to ask that person to forgive him. From that point, it should be very evident that the fruit of the spirit is pouring from the pastors life, and the hurt one will sense an abiding love between them from that time on. If we hurt someone, then apologize, and mean it, we will be more than concerned not to repeat the offense, and will seek a number of ways to prove our love.

    What does Bob do? He burns someone, rarely apologizes, then marginalizes the relationship. He shuns you. Hardly the fruit of the spirit.

    This minor encounter with an usher is bad enough of an example of careless leadership. Now add on the increasingly troubling testimony of abuse in nearly every form. “Bob is a man of very high character.” Yeah right! Let me content with cage boxer instead. At least I will know when he throws a blow my way.

  188. I’m so sorry that happened to you and your family. Years ago, I was attending a church but soon left for what I felt was inappropriate attention from the pastor. The church continued on, but it was about 30 years later when I had a chance meeting with one of his daughters. She told me that while I was attending, this pastor was sexually and physically abusing she and her sisters. Her mother was also involved. It was no real shock to me as I knew there was something amiss.

    I just want to say that I believe you. I find one of the saddest things about the case I just relayed is that the girls tried to get help and did go to the elders and deacons with the accusations and all of the people who supported their parents knew. The lady and her sisters sued the parents in court and the friends all lied. The girls lost the case and were ordered to pay $10,000 to the parents! Obviously, their reward will come at the judgment.

    I see your predicament as unjust and deceptive on the part of your father and his sychophants. Do these people that you’ve gone to not realize that by “giving hearty approval” to those that do these things that they are participating in the sins? True believers must not stand on the side of evil, but even expose it. My heart goes out to you and your family.

    True Christians will not lose their faith over this, only those whose faith is in man can be shaken. It is better to avert people from attending this church. You are doing a service to the Body of Christ.

    A pastor’s wife.

  189. There is no lay clergy distinction in the Bible.

  190. Michael Baun…please elaborate and support with Scripture (or lack of).

    It will be a good discussion, IMO.

  191. Hello Alex,

    I found your site after reading the article in the Bee, when was it, a month ago? For some reason I came back to it this morning.

    I went to Calvary Chapel in Fresno for several years about a decade ago. While I was there I became friends with Pastor Bruce Mumper, worked for him part-time in his business, and hung out with him on occasion. In the church, in his work, and in his home he impressed me as man of integrity and genuine follower of Christ, but with the usual assorted faults and sins that plague all us humans. My good thoughts of him have never changed.

    My years spent at Calvary were, for the most part, a positive experience. I was there for the early years of my marriage and the first couple of years of learning to be a dad. Things weren’t working out too well for me at the time, so I was glad to have a supportive community, and few close friends, and a good relationship with my pastor.

    Calvary was my adolescent years in the faith. I became a Christian years earlier while serving in the military through a group called the Navigators. These were my dynamic years of conversion, witnessing, discovering the Word. After my discharge I married my wife and then “joined” Calvary Fresno. In terms of my faith, it was like High School: growing up, learning to negotiate various social groups, some minor aches and pains, like not making first string on the football team or being turned down by a pretty girl. It also had great excitement, like getting a drivers license or being invited to one of the cool parties. I grew in the faith, made lifelong friends (none of whom go to Calvary anymore), and now I look back mostly with fond memories.

    My departure from Calvary had some of the elements I’ve read about in your site: the manipulating leaders that tell others to give us a “talking to,” the quick and shallow dismissal of questions, and the social pressures of being “in” vs. being “out.” But, I look back now and think it was all part of God’s plan to get me “out of the house” so I could grow up. After a couple of years wandering in the desert, I found a home in a mainline denominational church and what I thought to be “dead liturgy” is actually the very thing I needed to grow in Christ.

    Looking back at Calvary I admire them as a Word-centered church, filled with people who want to follow Christ, form their thoughts by God’s Word, and sincerely live a godly life. Nevertheless, I also see them as socially manipulative, uncurious about the ideas and history of the broader Church, and overly obsessed with the Pastor—either in their exultation of him or in their bitter criticism of him. The pastor, after all, is just a man, a man like me.

    On the movie review scale: I give Calvary Chapel two and half stars.

    Dave Duffy
    Kingsburg, CA

  192. Church family…have a serious request. There is a dark cloud hanging over several saints as a result of this crisis. They are in need of sustained prayer from all of us, especially the intercessors. Marriages and relationships are being tested to the limits, and without divine intervention, there will be more casualties from the enemie’s attacks. Please keep these people without names in your prayers.

  193. Dave Duffy said, “On the movie review scale: I give Calvary Chapel two and half stars.”

    Is that out of 10 stars? :smile:

    Thanks for sharing Dave…and welcome.

    Wide Awake…I’m aware of one situation…praying for them and the others you mention. Sorry to hear that.

  194. “Looking back at Calvary I admire them as a Word-centered church, filled with people who want to follow Christ, form their thoughts by God’s Word, and sincerely live a godly life. Nevertheless, I also see them as socially manipulative, uncurious about the ideas and history of the broader Church, and overly obsessed with the Pastor—either in their exultation of him or in their bitter criticism of him. The pastor, after all, is just a man, a man like me.”

    Dave, somehow “Word-centered”, “socially manipulative” and “overly obssessed with the Pastor” don’t seem to all belong in the same sentence. They seem more Old Testament-centered due to the fact that most of the NT was written by the Apostle Paul whose teachings don’t comport too well with the Moses Model with which they’re overly obssessed.

    Also, don’t forget when Warren Jeffs was convicted the public’s criticism of him grew in tandem with exultation of him by his followers who were convinced at that time that their guy was being persecuted which was final proof that he was their “Prophet, Seer and Revelator”

    “On the movie review scale: I give Calvary Chapel two and half stars.”

    If you’re referring to the Terry Jones movie (involving an ignorant, unaccountable, dove-toting, power-hungry pastor) now playing in Florida, I’d give them 4 and a half stars! C’mon Dave, be generous ;-)

    Overall though I’d give you 4 stars for the good job you did describing the Clever Cult that CC is! Praise God you left that glorified mess.

  195. …finding much agreement (personally) with Mike S’s recent entry re: CC.

    RE: T.Jones:

    1. Burning Korans or threatening to burn Korans does not promote the Gospel…and is not “pastoral” or “ministerial” in my opinion…and a bad idea.

    2. Jones, IMO, did it to incite people and pick a fight…and draw attention.

    3. Islam is not, IMO, a “peaceful religion” as evidenced by the oppression of women, Honor killings, acid thrown in the faces of women seeking education, publicly hanging homosexuals in town squares, crushing dissent and free speech, persecuting Christians and Jews and Agnostics, believing all “Infidels” must convert or die (and promoting such), imposing Sharia Law in many Muslim controlled areas…and the application of said Law…which violates human rights…etc etc etc.

    4. Had T.Jones threatened to burn Bibles, Torahs or Books of Mormon…my guess is no overwhelming media coverage, no calls from the President to stand down, no calls from major Govt. officials, no World-wide outcry, no violent protests, no threats of major violence, no calls for death to infidels and America…etc etc.

    All, of course, in my opinion.

  196. I agree Alex. Christians don’t get to condone any act of hatred or violence against any religion, including Islam. Americans find it hard to condemn the failed Quran burning by Terry Jones (TJ) without linking it to the evils of radical Islam or the Ground Zero mosque controversy, when in fact one has nothing to do with the other. The mosque controversy is about being insensitive and hurting people’s feelings whereas Quran burning is about getting innocent people killed, strengthening radical jihadist muslims, endangering the lives of our troops, while bringing shame and ridicule to the Christian faith the world over.

    Yet for political expediency politicians like Palin & Boehner decided to link Quran burning to the mosque controversy so as to throw TJ a life jacket, he put it on and tied Quran burning to building a mosque at ground zero….essentially digging himself out of the ditch he’d dug for himself.

    Palin:
    “Book burning is antithetical to American ideals. People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation – much like building a mosque at Ground Zero.”

    Boehner:
    “To Pastor Jones and those who want to build the mosque, just because you have a right to do something in America, does not mean it is the right thing to do.”

    Pretty neat trick huh? One commentator called it an “assist” i.e., you get it near the top of the rim so the other guy (TJ) can put it in i.e., make the faux connection between Quran burning and mosque controversy. It was an easy sell.

    We have a right to be mad about them building that mosque at ground zero. And even if it’s a non-ground zero non-mosque, it’s still a “mosque at ground zero” or shall we say Mosque de Triomphe. I agree with Boehner on not building the mosque there just because you have a right to, but it’s quite a stretch to compare it to burning Qurans.

    By definition Islam is a cult. However, when a cult gets very big it becomes a religion if it doesn’t act too ‘uncivilized’. Islam is the second largest and fastest-growing ‘religion’ in the world after Christianity. However, radical jihadist Islam, practiced by the 19 9/11 terrorists, makes up an infinitesimal portion of the Muslim population which currently stands at 1.57 billion (23% of the world’s population).

    Although 9/11 produced a greater number of casualties than other terrorist attacks, according to FBI files, only 6% of terrorists are Muslim. The remaining percentage of terrorist attacks on U.S. territory includes: Latinos at 42%, extreme Left Wing groups at 24%, Jewish extremists at 7%, Communists at 5%, and other terrorist organizations at 16%.

    I support neither Islam, nor muslims, nor the Quran nor the burning of it especially by rebel dove-toting, ignorant, out of control pastors.

    I think in addition to inciting people, picking a fight and drawing attention, TJ’s actions were motivated by racial animous:

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/09/pastor-who-wants-to-burn-korans-uses-n-word/

    I see striking parallels between the TJ scandal and the cult like practices in the CC movement and CCV in particular: step parent involved, dove logo, non-denominational, warehouse style church, complaints of spiritual abuse dubbed “mental violence” by Dove World members and estranged step daughter, Emma; allegations of financial shenanigans.

    Lastly, I don’t believe in coincidences and neither should you ;-)

  197. Am I missing something here? What does all the political talk have to do with the original article?

  198. Just a thought, but some very broad brushes and strokes are being used here in this part of the thread relative to the TJ scandal. While those of you who know me understrand that I see significant operational and theological flaws and abuses in the CC form of governance, I think it improper to paint CC in such a wholesale fashion, especialy for those CC’s who either operate in a different fashion or have, in the course of matters, have changed their behavior and bylaws to confrom to a New Testament model. I still sit on the Board of one such CC megachurch, so I know it is so.

  199. Jeff since you’re a CC board member you know that you and the other board members are the only members of the church, right? Why is that? Please can we start by having you tell all of us the REAL reason why ALL CC’s have no membership to offer and there’s only attendeeship. Why is that? This is a CC-wide phenomena.

    And when, you’re done with the membership thingy we can move to some other issues like the calling of Noah’s son Ham (i.e., progenitor of the African populatoin) “Deviled Ham” by another Florida dove-toting pastor in front of thousands who roared with laughter after he said it. Why did he do that and where does that stuff come from? That IMHO is worst than the N-word used by TJ & Co.

    If you feel too conflicted to respond we understand Jeff. Thank you for your time.

  200. Hey Jeff, you can respond with a limerick only this time I’m going to need you to use an original one i.e., your own ;-) And if it’s not a kind one, then at least make it funny. Deal?

  201. Mike S;

    Being a Board member does not, legally, make that Board member a “member” of a non-profit.

    CC’s have no membership for 2 reasons:

    1. in order to disallow “standing” form an attandee to sue as well as lessen/eliminate the rights of the attendee to obtain financial infromation. While most CC’s are non-member, some are not.

    2. more than likely, they merely copied another CC’s bylaws and articles of incroporation not knowing 1 above. These were promulgated by Oden Fong at CCOF in the early days and were/are still found in CC publications on forming a CC.

    The CC of which I am a Board member is transparent and is open to ideas, review, accountability of the sr. pastor, etc. from attendees, etc. I have initated as well as expereinced this with the sr. pastor. I could not be involved if the issues of concern to most here (including myself) were in operation at that church.

    Can’t speak to the Noah matter or other things. Suffice to say, don’t agree.

    An man named Sheck once took issue with his employer/pastor
    Such that he could no longer serve him unconditionally as master
    He thought it a busy unspiritual mess
    And was glad to find employment at 55 where he could still do his best
    And I’ll leave it to you to guess the rest

  202. Admin: could you delte my 3:28 as it was replaced by my 3:332. I hit the button accidentally

  203. JEFF SAID:
    “CC’s have no membership for 2 reasons:
    1. in order to disallow “standing” form an attandee to sue as well as lessen/eliminate the rights of the attendee to obtain financial infromation. While most CC’s are non-member, some are not.”

    Based on your #1 response Jeff:
    1) How does non-membership disallow standing to sue?
    2) Are you familiar with a case many years ago in TX, I believe, where a woman sued and lost because she WAS a member of the church and the judge ruled that because she WAS a member, the church had permission to do what they wouldn’t have been able to do had she not been a member?
    3) Why is it that only CC’s are concerned/worried about people suing them?
    4) Why “…eliminate the rights of the attendee to obtain financial information”?
    5) Why do you think the many other non-CC megachurches (2000+ attendees) with memberships are not concerned/worried about being sued and/or have never been sued?
    6) Which CCs have memberships and are the membership CC churches mostly megachurches or not?

    JEFF ALSO SAID:
    “2. more than likely, they merely copied another CC’s bylaws and articles of incroporation not knowing 1 above. These were promulgated by Oden Fong at CCOF in the early days and were/are still found in CC publications on forming a CC.”

    Based on your #2 response Jeff:
    7) Do you know what year they were “….promulgated by Oden Fong… and did those that were “…promulgated by Oden Fong…” contain specific language discouraging membership for the reasons stated in your #1?
    8) What do you think of a CC pastor joking about Noah’s dark-skinned son being “Deviled Ham”?
    9) What do you think of the attendees at said pastor’s non-member super-megachurch church laughing at such a joke?

    I like your original limerick ;-)

  204. JEFF ALSO SAID:
    “Can’t speak to the Noah matter or other things. Suffice to say, don’t agree.”

    Sorry I didn’t see that Jeff. If you’re not willing/able to answer my questions, then maybe you could send out a bulk e-vite and have other CC leaders to come on HERE, and weigh in? Just a thought.

  205. Sheck,
    Is there a prize for guessing your riddle? If so, how much?

    Does a hireling ever have a will
    Oppose the tide and your heart to spill

    Rattle the cage
    Manage the rage
    Absolve oneself from the sage
    Now turn the page…

    Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!

    Let it Ring and rejoice with all it brings!

    Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!

  206. Admin,
    i’m thinking… what if you made 3 separate post for the following:
    1) What Former CC staff have seen and experienced.
    2) What Former CC volunteers and lay leaders have experienced.
    3) What Former CC Board Members have experienced.

    I could personally contribute to each section and I’m confident a blog roll for each section may show us a few different perspectives from different angles.

    When Red Dog was posting I could really sense his desire for ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ ecclesiology. I’m certain there are others out there that would wholeheartedly support such a view. I think it really comes from being young in a personal relationship with Jesus and a church.
    Staff issues may be very interesting subject matter. ie. the youth pastor that MUST spend three weeks working at the pastors home on construction projects. That person may have a few things to say. The bookkeeper that ‘hid’ the fact that a Sr. Pastors wife possessed a Mastercard in the churches name and would average 2-3k a month in personal expenses (not ministry related!).
    Board Issues: how in the world did we cut a check for $33,000.00 for the pastor to have a new car, we never voted on that?!
    Or did we, and someone forged the resolution, date and signatures?

    Inquiring minds….always want to know!

    My .02

  207. Good ideas WTC…thanks.

    Will try to set that up sometime today.

  208. WTC SAID:
    “Admin,
    i’m thinking… what if you made 3 separate post for the following:
    1) What Former CC staff have seen and experienced.
    2) What Former CC volunteers and lay leaders have experienced.
    3) What Former CC Board Members have experienced.
    I could personally contribute to each section and I’m confident a blog roll for each section may show us a few different perspectives from different angles.”

    Amen to that. And I would add #4 to that:

    4) What CC churches have memberships….their size etc..

    We could let Sheck manage the #4 post and update it as more CC churches choose to take the moral high road and have membership rolls toward the goal of getting rid of the authoritarian struction of the organization.

    That Sheck sure is acting like a Shill….”Shill Sheck”?

  209. replace “struction” with “structure”

  210. WTC…it is the culture of non-accountability and the many examples of abuse, corruption and cover-up that are handled by “look the other way…and leave it to the Lord” example and ethos that help promote the kind of behavior you describe.

    When a mere man is told he is Moses and the king of his situation…and then learns to be a king from the head king and the other kings and watches how they do things, listens to what they tell him and gets authority and power from the main king to do what he does…it can go very wrong…and has many many times.

    Where does a non-member member of CC go when they are abused? They are told “don’t harm the church” and “leave it to the Lord” and “don’t touch God’s anointed”….etc etc…and much guilt and further abuse is heaped on them for daring to confront the abuse and corruption.

    So many terrible examples out there. So much that’s been encouraged, tolerated, covered over, hushed, etc etc. So much really bad stuff. So many lives hurt and ruined…spiritually, physically and emotionally.

    It makes a perp of the victim and a victim of the perp. It’s wrong. It’s unjust. And it needs to change.

  211. “oooooooooh…a depsotion, eh” (say that like Curley from the Three Stooges):

    “1) How does non-membership disallow standing to sue?
    ACLU, etc. That does not give you standing to sue and question the finacial affirs, dealngs of the Board or officers, etc. Only a “member” (i.e. membership non-profit) can do that in court. Your only remedy if you are either not a member or there are no members (i.e. CC’s) is to file a complaint with the state attorneys general’s office and/or secretary of state which is typically given exclusive oversight of non-profits. Only problem there is it is about the lowest rung on the ladder as far as resource allocation. Also, a singular complaint absent some compelling evidence and absent some harm that affects a larger class of citizens in the state will not draw and eyeball either.

    2) Are you familiar with a case many years ago in TX, I believe, where a woman sued and lost because she WAS a member of the church and the judge ruled that because she WAS a member, the church had permission to do what they wouldn’t have been able to do had she not been a member?

    A: No, but let me attempt to respond based upon some educated conjecture. As a rule in all courts, state and federal is a longstanding precedence of decsions that effectively give significant deferecne to ecllesiatical matters being handled exclusively in the ecllesiastical setting and not decided by a court/judge. That is not to say that violations of the mandatory reporters laws, embezzlement, sexual abuse, etc. will not be heard at court, but that church governance matters, accoutability, fiscal inquries absent fraud or actions not rising to the level of requisite criminal proceedings will not be heard by the judge virtaully from the outset of litigation. So a “member” of church under most scenarios would not have a civil remedy aavilable in most or many instances as they as members would be bound by such case law precedents and policies on the matter. That is what might have happened in the matter you reference. I think you state the conclusions right, but don’t have the reasonfor the decswion exactily correct. But the facts given are sparse, to say the least.

    3) Why is it that only CC’s are concerned/worried about people suing them?

    A: I really don’t think this is the mindset of almost all CC’s unless they seek or gain good legal counsel. They merely replicate what Chuck did by rote, which is quite ironic (see dicussion below).

    4) Why “…eliminate the rights of the attendee to obtain financial information”?

    A: We all know the answers to that. Coverups, no desire for accoutability. Moses model abuse..the list is virtually endless.

    5) Why do you think the many other non-CC megachurches (2000+ attendees) with memberships are not concerned/worried about being sued and/or have never been sued?

    A: see answer above

    6) Which CCs have memberships and are the membership CC churches mostly megachurches or not?

    A: I don’t know. I don;t beleive there is any correlation between CC megachurch and membership. The organization (CCOF) does not keep such records nor, to my knowledge has, sought to know it. CCCM itself is a membership church with bylaws that require annual mmeeetings and the like. This is not by preference or design, but by the fact that its bylaws were inherited from the church that became known as CCCM. Very ironic.

    JEFF ALSO SAID:
    “2. more than likely, they merely copied another CC’s bylaws and articles of incroporation not knowing 1 above. These were promulgated by Oden Fong at CCOF in the early days and were/are still found in CC publications on forming a CC.”

    Based on your #2 response Jeff:
    7) Do you know what year they were “….promulgated by Oden Fong…

    A: No. but likely in late 1960′s or during 70′s. Essentiallt it would time with the beginning of the growth in the movement and CCCM staff pastors planting churches as PC’s Word for Today radio ministry also grew, creatiing requests for CC type teaching churches.

    “and did those that were “…promulgated by Oden Fong…” contain specific language discouraging membership for the reasons stated in your #1?”

    A: no. There was nothing discussed or disclosed rendering an analysis or opinion in Oden’s booket. This would beg the question: If CCCM was membership, annual meetings, etc…why are the model bylaes non-membership, etc.? Well, I believe (since I wasn’t around then) and don’t have first hand knowledge, but I believe that PC, coming from a denominational situation was so disinchanted with presbyterian and denominational rules, pastors being hirelings, committee governance and its inherent impotence and dilatory nature, etc. decided that non-membership was far preferable to accomplish the move of the Spirit in CC and flexibility that he thought best and consistent with the Moses model. Hence, the likely explanation reason for the “Moses model” and bylaws, church governance booklet.

    Again, guys who were sent out as well as their generation of progeny who didn’t know any of this stuff, had limited sources to know it, and, I suspect that the idea arose to provide model articles, bylaws, instructions for gaining 501(c)(3) status and conformance with CC distinctives to assit them. I doubt anything nefarious was afoot…just a bunch of young guys/hiipies trying to get these churches up and running legally.

    I would suggest that 80% of CC’s have no idea what is stated much less required of them in their bylaws. They do not follow Roberts Rules if required. Do not have minutes, blah, blah, blah. Heck the Moses model is alsmost dismetrically opposed to their bylaws..even the model ones. So the pastors govern as they desire or have seen modeled by their sending churches..originating to PC. “if it was good for PC, it must be good for me.” So they use and copy w/o concern or thought. This is problematic even if CC were not a moses model church or for any organization for that matter.

    What do you think of a CC pastor joking about Noah’s dark-skinned son being “Deviled Ham”?

    A: Well, this event took place in the Middle East and the idea of a Nordic looking Jesus embraced by the Western church is absurd. As a Jew, Sephardic jews are dark-skinned. Do you remeber the Entebbe raid and shortly thereafter Israel found out there were 3000 or so Ehiotpian Jews that they evacuated by plane?

    Now I know that Moses had yet to appear; hence no Jewish people. On the other hand if the intent of the joke was racist, that’s another story. Myself, I tend to give grace knowing the abudance of mistakes and sins I committed before being saved, after being saved and also while in ministry. Sometimes jokes do not come off.

    9) What do you think of the attendees at said pastor’s non-member super-megachurch church laughing at such a joke?

    A: Look. The CC I went to had a sr. pastor that once or twice made, what I think, were offensive lawyer jokes. Now I take humbrage at a church that on one hand takes a shot at lawyers, then seeks them out for free legal work. But I smiled, laughed politely, was offended and to that pastor’s credit, he later apologized to me personally since i then an elder and on his Board.

    I lastly, would like address a perception I take from your questions. You seen to infer I am a part of CC, etc. I do not attend a CC…left almost 3 years ago for sundry reasons. I left owrking for a CC 4 years ago. I therefore have no skin in the game to defend what is either scripturally or is otherwise defenseless. There is an axe to grind and accountability to issues, etc. that seem rightful to challenge. But broad strokes are unfair to a number of CC’s. Therefore, I would appreciate my responses being seen in that context.

  212. Sheck…I had written and deleted a post defending you as “not” a CC shill…but then I figured you’d answer for yourself far better than I could…and you proved me right :smile:

  213. part one..somehow I deleted some of my answer. Non-profits are creatures of state law. As such one must meet the standards for standing as defined by that state’s body of procedural law. Membership is required in most all if not all states to directly sue a non-profit. Just because your finanacially support a non-profti does not give you standing. You can contribute to GreenPeace, the ACLU, whatever and do so every day in large sums, but you have to be a member to sue. You report to the IRS if a 501(c), but tthat is based upon their regs and, at that, they investigate and/or bring the matter to tax court or settlement if it proceeds that far.

    Of course, failure to meet other state laws such a sexual harrassment, mandatory reporter violations, etc. to do require membership standing as these laws are avaibale to the general public and for the public’s benefit. But internal church matters require embership to challenge in civil proceedings, assuming the court will undertake it (see dicussion below re: court deference to ecllesiastical law and avoiding church issues.)

  214. One more correction:

    “Of course, failure to meet other state laws such a sexual harrassment, mandatory reporter violations, etc. to do NOT require membership standing as these laws are avaibale to the general public and for the public’s benefit. But internal church matters require embership to challenge in civil proceedings, assuming the court will undertake it (see dicussion below re: court deference to ecllesiastical law and avoiding church issues.)

  215. I continue to be called “crazy”, “angry”, “hateful”, “nutcase”, it is even implied that I am an unsaved “evildoer” and even suggested that I’m demon possessed, etc etc etc.

    The intense physical, emotional, spiritual and psychological abuse I suffer at the hands of my pastor and step-dad certainly has taken a terrible toll on me.

    That combined with the incessant indoctrination of my pastor / step-father as a prophet of God who is not to be questioned and having that mindset reinforced by the Calvary Chapel culture and teaching and practices has been devastating.

    The result has been a lot of hurt, pain, confusion, serious conflictedness, self-destructiveness, rage, anger, and so much more that has been ongoing and debilitating at times and has seriously impacted my life since around age 5. I don’t know that healing is possible…I don’t know that “normal” is possible, especially when there is no justice, no accountability.

    I still don’t know or understand the complete scope of the damage due to what I’ve been through. “Religious” abuse from a trusted person like a pastor and the church is so much worse because it comes from the authority of God and pits a victim like me against God Himself, which adds an element of destructiveness that may be even more hurtful than the physical and psychological abuse itself.

  216. Admin:

    Yes. Please be mindful that for those of us who were/are hurt, your example as one who is transparent in sharing his faith (and sometimes you may believe or feel the lack of faith) and see the reality of a true walk in the Lord (even as Paul suffered from such abuse). The example of your walk provides such an affirmation at a gut level to those like you that they do not need to feel be condemned by God or that we are somehow “lesser” even though we are slandered marginalized, and rendered conflicited. Especially when it comes at the hands of those who are supposedly the custodians of the faith through their “calling”… and to be the bearers of truth integrity, healing and comfort (through the Spirit) of God’s love and provision.

    The fact of damage and its toll on the spirit is untelling and unfathomable. But the fact also is that we have a loving Savior and Father who understand and are there to help, heal and guide. I hurt as you know. I do not hurt in such a greater fashion knowing that I DO NOT GO THROUGH THIS ALONE.

  217. I empathize with both of you. It is very difficult to trust other Christians for me because of Bob and his crew. I struggle with that constantly. Trust is such an all encompassing emotion in our social interactions. It effects everything. There’s not a week that goes by that I don’t have to force myself to go to church. Once there, not second guess everything that comes out of my pastors mouth and his motives. I hate that. It’s not fair to him or anyone else.

    I am still striving to find that middle ground of not fearing, by placing my trust in the Lord instead of his “servants”.

    I hate to be so dramatic , but I wish we had never met Bob Grenier and that he never had the chance to harm so many. Especially his children and mine.

  218. “But the fact also is that we have a loving Savior and Father who understand and are there to help, heal and guide. ” well said Jeff!

    It does help to know that we do not go through this alone, and that we can offer each other the healing and help and love that our Father offers us.

  219. Alex…I think there is obviously something very deep that happens in our soul when we are disillusioned and harmed by a respected religious leader. I am not sure that in this life we will ever be fully healed from the painful events we faced. But there is a mysterious depth of faith that eventually occurs where we shed any confidence in man, and ourselves, and we begin truly placing our trust in the only trustworthy person, Jesus. That is where I find myself today. Not completely there but approaching that understanding.

  220. JEFF:
    “As a rule in all courts, state and federal is a longstanding precedence of decsions that effectively give significant deferecne to ecllesiatical matters being handled exclusively in the ecllesiastical setting and not decided by a court/judge.”

    Yes “ecclesiastical privilege” is the term I was trying to remember. I found the Texas case I referenced earlier. It had nothing to do with ACLU…. financial affairs, dealings of the Board or officers etc….

    Basically in a nutshell a woman named Peggy Penley had an extramarital affair, told her pastor Buddy Westbrook about it, said she was leaving the church, left the church and the drama began….

    “…Westbrook….told church elders about her affair. They distributed a letter to the congregation urging them to shun her because she was seeking a divorce that was not biblically justified and had a relationship with another man.”

    So Peggy sued her pastor, the church and the elders for defamation, negligence and intentionally inflicting emotional distress. When I first heard about this case I knew/predicted she would NOT win because she belonged to a church with MEMBERSHIP which meant that when she signed on she agreed to be disciplined vis-a-vis Matt 18:15 etc… I support what the pastor did, although he could have handled the situation a lot better, and I believe his dual role as pastor and marriage counselor put him in a precarious position. The TX high court said they could not separate the 2 roles and Peggy lost her case.

    Here’s the article:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/30/us/30texas.html

    Esseentially the pastor of a “MEMBERSHIP CHURCH” is protected by “ecclesiastical privilege” which is why Peggy lost. If peggy were an ATTENDEE at a CC church, she would have won her defamation case despite her sin of adultery. Now juxtapose that to a church CC ATTENDEE defamation situation over something that is not sin and where the pastor remains pridefully unrepentant despite many failed attempts at reconciliation.

    Membership-conferred “ecclesiastical privilege” upon a pastor prevents civil courts from intervening in the church’s business of church ‘discipline’. But because CC’s have no membership the courts can intervene when an ATTENDEE sues an unrepentant pastor for something other than… “financial affairs and other internal church matters”…things like defamation, invasion of privacy, etc….

    Unfortunately, CCs don’t seem to care about being able to invoke member-conferred “ecclesiastical privilege” to mitigate damages created from their widespread abusive practices.

    JEFF:
    “On the other hand if the intent of the joke was racist, that’s another story.”

    Yup!

    JEFF:
    “The CC I went to had a sr. pastor that once or twice made, what I think, were offensive lawyer jokes. Now I take humbrage at a church that on one hand takes a shot at lawyers, then seeks them out for free legal work. But I smiled, laughed politely, was offended and to that pastor’s credit, he later apologized to me personally…”

    First off Jeff, I believe it’s apples and oranges to compare lawyer jokes with ethnic jokes because we choose our professions but not your race. Secondly, he DID apologize to you personally, you accepted his apology, end of story it’s in both of your pasts and you’ve moved on. Praise God! Not so here.

  221. Mike S; I think we are in alignment, like the stars. Uh oh. Sing…”Aquarious…Aquarious.”

    As to the joke matter. I was making the point that if no racial motives were afoot, I personally am willing to give a little grace for a tasteless or insensitive joke. Since most pastors use canned joke CD’s to emphasize their cute little point, any pastor who dare steps beyond the CD’s to actually take a shot at a real joke deserves some commendation for the effort…even if it misses the mark or is delivered with poor timing. I think we all have to understand these are gentiles who never worked the Catskills like a favorite of mine and Dad…Don Rickles.

    Certainly a person chooses a profession as opposed to race and if racial motives are afoot, the point you make is well stated and makes the matter especially egregious. Me, I chose Jewish so I could be “chosen” first and if chosen by no one or God, then by me. I also chose to be a lawyer, which clearly qualifies me for state subsidized mental health care and an extra shake of the rosary beads. I only pray for the day I go to church and hear the pastor start with, “did you hear the one about the pastor who believed in personal accountability…”

    ADMIN…PRAYING FOR YOU AND HOPE MY DESPERATE SHOT AT HUMOR WAS NEITHER INSULTING OR ILL-TIMIED BY GAVE YOU A FEW LAUGHS OR SMILES. HANG IN THE BUBULA.

    OUT

  222. p.s. a lot of afooting by me tonight. So, afoot joke from dearest Dad, Mr. Shecky Greene:

    Two feet were arguing over a shoe when the hand said, “Hey, you’re both right!”

  223. Emergency Foot Care: Walk-ins Accepted!

  224. ALEX SAID:
    “I continue to be called “crazy”, “angry”, “hateful”, “nutcase”, it is even implied that I am an unsaved “evildoer” and even suggested that I’m demon possessed, etc etc etc.
    The intense physical, emotional, spiritual and psychological abuse I suffer at the hands of my pastor and step-dad certainly has taken a terrible toll on me.”

    Alex, on January 16, at 9:35 a.m. Nancy Cardelli sent her close friend and confidant Jan Carr an e-mail saying “I am clinging to the hope that the truth will prevail!”

    Rest assured, the truth will come out Alex. You can take comfort in the fact that Nancy Cardelli was also called crazy and was eventually vindicated, albeit posthumously.

    Nancy Cardelli was the wife of Dino Cardelli – pastor of CC Arcarta. She committed suicide on March 21,2010 after her husband repeatedly molested her 14 year old daughter and flirted with said teenager at the dinner table in front of his wife and the other kids.

    http://www.times-standard.com/ci_16089994?source=rss_viewed

    Notice that at the beginning of the article the church is referred to as “First Calvary Church of Arcata”. How’d that happen? Cover up? You have to read to the end to find out that in fact the church is a bonafide CC aka Clever Cult!

    Here it is further down in the article:
    “According to the Calvary Chapel website, Dino and Nancy Cardelli moved to Humboldt County in 1994 to open the church, which had its first Sunday service in January 1995. Tuesday, the church board of trustees issued a statement saying that it was praying for Dino Cardelli and his family, and noting that the church had accepted the pastor’s resignation and that he is no longer associated with the church.”

    Pastor Dino is a graduate of the Moses Model training camp aka CCBC where pastors avoid/ignore for the most part the Biblical/Pauline requirements of a pastor except the double honor/pay part.

    Here’s a related companion article referencing the law enforcement-Calvary connection and the fact that Nancy’s suspicions were not reported for lack of proof and fear that the police would join in with Dino’s supporters and accuse her of being crazy.

    http://www.northcoastjournal.com/news/2010/09/16/gods-lamentation/

    Her friend Jan puts it this way:

    “Nancy was the most loving, wonderful, compassionate person,” Carr said. Asked why she didn’t inform law enforcement of Nancy’s confessions, Carr said that like Nancy, she had no proof. “I was just so torn for all these months, and I kept saying, ‘Let law enforcement take its course,’” she said. Now that that’s happening, Carr is comforted. “I’m so happy for Nancy. Now the world will know she’s not crazy.”

    This is a very sad and awful story that is becoming part of a pattern in the flawed system of church government known as the Moses Model. Let’s really pray for the Cardelli kids, and that this would be the wake up call for Chuck Smith to openly denounce the Moses Model, and let the Holy Spirit do a thorough cleansing within the abusive CC churches.

    Within weeks after his wife died pastor Dino continues business as usual and opens a myspace account and posts the following profile:

    http://www.myspace.com/533830189

    Details
    Status: Single
    Here for: Networking, Dating, Serious Relationships, Friends
    Hometown: Whittier
    Orientation: Straight
    Body type: 5′ 11″ / Athletic
    Ethnicity: White / Caucasian
    Religion: Christian – other
    Zodiac Sign: Libra
    Children: Proud parent
    Smoke / Drink: No / No
    Education: College graduate
    Occupation: Pastor
    Income: $150,000 to $250,000

    We report, you decide folks.

  225. Hey, Shecky! I haven’t heard the word ‘Bubula’ in ages! My grandma used to call me that. I like your posts, only things is I actually have to ‘think’ when I read them!

    Alex, rest in the Lord. He loves you perfectly.

  226. Summer:

    Thanks for your kind comment and sharing what for you is a precious memory. Since we all likely can agree that the vast majority of my comments are thoughtless, I just assumed they required no thought when reading them. Please accept my sincerest and most humble apologies. I’ll try harder not to slip up again.

  227. Mike S…WOW! I will refrain from comment at the moment…I am too enraged.

    God, bring Justice and Accountability to all involved…and to the Institution and men who promote this culture of abuse and corruption and non-accountability and cover-up.

  228. Sheck…thank you for your humor…gonna need some more today…

    Not Alone, Wide Awake, Esther, Summer (and others)….thank you for your recent words of encouragement and support. Much appreciated.

  229. Alex do you know if myspace has an option for status: “widowed” why this scumbag had to pick “single”. Here we have a recently widowed pastor (who allegedly caused his wife’s death by suicide from his immoral actions) who couldn’t wait to get online and broadcast to all the single ladies that he is available and looking for a serious dating relationship with 6 figure income to boot?! Folks it’s time to call up to the the throneroom of God and ask him to bring a swift end to this sickness that is the Moses Model. Maybe Sheck could shed some light on a wrongful death lawsuit in the works?

  230. I am so upset about what occurred in CC Arcata, I could spit. How disgusting and devastating and frustrating!

  231. There is something really wrong when a man like this can lead a congregation and no one suspects anything other than his wife. I believe there has to be some sort of signs. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely! The Moses model encourages behavior that is wrong because ‘hey, don’t question the pastor’. Just submit. This is so heartbreaking.

  232. I am very upset by the Dino Cardelli, Pastor of Calvary Chapel Aracata situation.

    Very disappointed that many CC pastors…good guys over at PP…still don’t “get it”.

    They are in Denial that there is a problem with the Institution, the Organization, the System.

    The first step in helping “fix” the Problem…is acknowledging that you have one. If the good guys don’t see it and aren’t willing to step up and demand reforms…then the Problem will get worse and change will have to come from “without” rather than from “within”…

    This tragic grotesque episode…and the fact that the wife didn’t report sooner and later committed suicide because “no one would believe her” infuriates me and resolves me.

    The Culture of Non-Accountability and “Don’t touch God’s anointed” has to change.

  233. “If a tree falls in the woods, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a noise?
    It doesn’t matter.”

    Existential reality as practiced by some CC pastors.

    Admin: “If the good guys don’t see it and aren’t willing to step up and demand reforms…then the Problem will get worse and change will have to come from “without” rather than from “within”…

    “Don’t rock the boat baby” – stolen and bastardized from Hues Corporation song (1970′s); or
    “Man pleaser” – stolen and bastardized from Hall and Oates.

    I guess many spiritualize it, but at its core, the attitude seemingly evidenced by these fellows is one of self-security, self- preservation and fear of disapproval from others triumphing and critical and honest intellectual thinking…and ultimately over truth. Also, a fair measure of ignoring the conviction of the Spirit mixed in.

    To act and question such an event and model and the conclusions one must draw from it requires character, integrity and an assurance in standing for the truth. If one at the least begins a journey to seek and to do justly and rightly, you will lose something by engaging in the process. What? I believe this process or journey will bring you face-to-face ultimately with one major, full blown question…”one’s faith in a “movement” as opposed to faith in the Word of God. And if you get that far and “unwrap” that puppy, it then has to loosen a lot of threads in one’s belief system at it core.

    Happened to me and I suspect many here. No?

  234. After reading the Arcata fiasco news story, I am ready to explode! Please, Alex & Co, start a combination class action lawsuit, media blitz, church picketing campaign and whatever else can be done! I cannot personally get involved right now due to pressing personal problems but when I can I will. I will be reading here daily to see what action you will take. Don’t wait another minute!

  235. Hmmm… the day after Dino was arrested, daughter Beki was “in school…lmao hahahah.”
    http://www.google.com/profiles/116363590753741162795#buzz

  236. anonymouse….let me assure you that I believe Justice is coming…and that reforms are coming to Calvary Chapel…in a very big way.

  237. Good news Alex…its time to turn over a few tables.

  238. Calvary Chapel is full of arrogant blowhards who don’t give a rip what the bible says because they are “spirit led” as in, “demonized”. The music is demonic hypnotism, many of their lispy pastors sound like closet cases, and long-time attendees remain infantile morons who don’t understand anything about sound doctrine. A fish rots from the head – - papa Chuck began with an unhealthy personality cult, and he has spawned a thousand imitators. Their total damage caused to the body of Christ is incalculable.

  239. Hal, don’t hold back man. Tell us how you really feel. :)

  240. Not alone: I’ve got more sense than to blame God and the Bible for the putrid, hellish mess Chuck’s “pastors” have left in their wake over the last 30 years.

  241. I think we all agree with that Hal.

  242. Hal Brighton: Now one minute here Mr. Brighton. Your painting with such a braod brush is offensive to me and others who have been nourished and blessed in the CC churches, even under the most abusive of circumstances.

    These are horrible words to hear from a person who likely would consider hisself an upstanding “Christian Man.” Words used such as CC pastors being “arrogant blowhards who don’t give a rip what the bible says because they are “spirit led” is way over the line.

    Personally…and I am going on record here for all you regulars who know me well…CC is a fine movement and you can count me as one of its best pieces of fruit. Next thing we likely hear from you is that Chuck Smith is to blame for the horrible Thanksgiving Day NFL matchups.

    As for the crack about CC demonic music, I sure hope you would not include David Bowie, the Kinks, Mott the Hoople, Iggy Pop, Bruce Springsteen and Jeff Beck in that category.

    Everyone: Let’s all celebrate a joyous Thanksgiving with Angelina Jolie.

  243. “Jeff” – I’ve read and re-read your last set of comments a few times and can’t tell if you are being serious or sarcastic about CC.

  244. Alex: why don’t you help Doug out? I’m too perverse to respond at this moment.

  245. Doug I guess Alex is busy.

    To answer your question…a riddle. in your blog, you use the terms “serious” and “sarcastic” in that order. The Bible tells us to place the first last. K?

  246. My Dad just got back from working Harrahs’ in Reno. His best line of the engagement:

    My grandfather always said, “Don’t watch your money; watch your health.” So one day while I was watching my health, someone stole my money. It was my grandfather.

  247. I was being sarcastic

  248. Thanks I don’t always get it.

  249. Have you all checked out the map lately? It’s unbelievable how many have found this site from around the world! Surely they didn’t all just happen upon it by accident. But I’d be curious to know more specifically why so many from other continents are interested in this site?

    The first guess would be that they have connections with CC issues themselves. The second guess would be that they have church government, or leadership issues, in general. My third guess would be that they have interest in child abuse cases. But this doesn’t even explain why so many people from so many places are checking in here, and some regularly.

    Anyone have other guesses?

  250. I thought you might appreciate this link with regards to how BG does business

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnAsE1DBya8

  251. Jim, would you agree to the following?

    “I ask that each and every reader here would agree to keep Alex and every member of his family in their prayers, and that God would supernaturally speak to ChuckSr, the leadership of CCOF, CCV, the board of CCv and each and every person who attends that church and seek an unprecedented move of God in each heart.”

  252. Hiya! Quick question that’s entirely off topic. Do you know how to make your site mobile friendly? My website looks weird when browsing from my iphone 4. I’m trying to find a theme or plugin that might be able to fix this problem. If you have any recommendations, please share. Thanks!

  253. I read most of this blog my condolences to all who have been oppressed by Calvary Chapel Pastors, and to include Harvest Christian Fellowship. These men come from rock star status when they start their testimonies off by saying I use to do drugs and “God” delivered me through the blood of Jesus Christ. Then they all hear from God calling them to be a Pastor. I think anger is the key to pastoralship amongst Calvary Chapels and affiliates. Lord forbid if a Pastor has an issue if he does he’s removed, so they all begin to lie about there perfect lives at home. Honestly how many obese calvary chapel pastor wives do you see? These men are under pressure to perform in the shadow of Chuck Smith, Jon Coursen, and the list goes on. If there church doesn’t produce so many thousands they somehow failed. OK ok, I know the speech here I’ve heard it. We aren’t competing with each other the Holy Spirit breathed this church into existence and it is sustained by God.
    Then why are these “Men of God” so damn angry?
    I have heard all the excuses why this pastor flambayed this person or this other person. Bottom line, the first time a “Pastor” steps on a sheep he needs to be removed promptly. If he stays in position bad things happens to families his judgments are all wrong and people get hurt. He begins to chose sides, and LORD forbid if you have been offended by one of his favorite families he writes you off as a heretic.
    There are different gifts and what I have experienced and seen is that if a man can teach that doesn’t give him the ability or gift to be a pastor. If he teaches let him teach but there should be a long litmus tests and stringent process to become a pastor.
    And if I ever hear a Pastor say he has an inner circle of friends to pour his experiences into, like Jesus did I will puke on him. What that means I have my friends go away you piece of sh*T, You should be seen not heard. And if they don’t see you don’t worry there are enough rumors going around no one will ever call you even after 14 years of sitting in there presence. All Hypocrits. Hate them all.

  254. My husband was a pastor on staff at a large CC. He was fired from his position on staff because the pastor’s wife wanted him out. He was never given a reason, nor did the senior pastor call him in to talk to him. It has been several years and we still have not recovered. We know the Lord saved us from an extremely abusive ministry, but it still hurts deeply,.

  255. Blindsided, I’m so sorry for what has happened to you. It really helped us when we realized the issues are systemic which made what happened to us seem less personal.

    May God heal you completely, and may you be comforted in the meantime. Peruse the posts and you’ll find many who’ve been in your shoes, and others’ stories will help you to piece together the bigger picture. I, personally, have found the bigger picture to be the most helpful in recovery. We still get about 3 calls a week from others who’ve been encouraged to leave our former CC, and most feel they are all alone and stunned, as it sounds like you were, and we were, as well.

  256. I’ve gone through a lot of this same stuff too at a different Calvary Chapel. Calvary Chapel are ranked 3rd most abusive, or so I’ve heard. It’s hard stuff to get through and let go. Especially when they hardly ever follow the Matt. 18 rule. All they want to do is destroy.

  257. Hi Alex,
    I’m new to your blog so if you’ve already addressed this issue please forgive. But I was just reading lots of comments regarding Chuck Smith and his empire…. Have you researched the roots of CCCM? Have you read about Lonnie Frisbee and Chuck’s reaction to him upon shaking his hand, for example? And about how Lonnie became a “Christian”? It’s very interesting and might help you to understand why CC’s are in the mess they are in today. A good tree doesn’t produce bad fruit, ya know?
    I could write a lot more, but you probably know all of this stuff?
    I pray God’s will be done for you, your family, and all the CC’s out there. It is all so terribly heartbreaking.

  258. Hi Julie, yes, I’m aware of much of the Lonnie Frisbee story and that it was really Lonnie who drew the Jesus People Hippies in the early days and that Chuck provided the venue and seized the opportunity (either with good motive or bad, dunno).

    IMO, from the outset, Chuck has been a guy who thumbs his nose at Authority, both Scripture and the Governing Authority over him (the law of the land).

    Basically, Chuck has claimed Apostolic Authority and started his own denomination and then acted as an Apostle in “anointing” and laying hands on others…but won’t take the Apostolic Responsibility that comes with it by publicly rebuking and disciplining his mini-Chucks for sin per 1 Timothy 5:19-22 and many other examples Paul lays out.

    I think Chuck Smith has major sin issues that disqualified him from ministry, yet he is stubborn and intentional about promoting those who commit the same sin he did.

    Chuck doesn’t follow Scripture when it comes to Grace and Mercy and Justice for those hurt by his CC pastors…but then claims Grace and Mercy to cover over corruption, adultery, child abuse, child sexual abuse and basically stealing money from the church (though it’s framed as something different, of course).

    There is too much bad fruit that I’m privy to, to believe it is a Good Tree any longer. There are many seemingly good pastors in the System/Organization/Movement…and they need to leave the Team and not associate with this sinfulness and mockery of God by how these situations are handled.

    Chuck Smith says one thing and practices another. The incentives and rewards and protections are for those who get really Big and who make lots of money and who commit terrible sins (but pledge loyalty to Chuck). The stick and the punishment is for those who are loyal to God first, rather than Chuck, those who are victims of the CC Senior Pastor etc etc.

    It’s upside down. I do not believe Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith promote a Servant-Leader Model (other than through some rhetoric in the Distinctives) as they don’t Practice it, which teaches much more than mere words on a page.

    It is heartbreaking. I told another non-CC pastor today that it’s like finding out Santa Claus isn’t real when you are a kid. The Cesspool is too deep for too long. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire and I’m choking on the smoke.

  259. What does IMO stand for?? Haha, I’m 49 and I guess a little old to know all the abbreviations out there, lol

  260. IMO (In My Opinion) Be Blessed!

  261. Alex:”Chuck doesn’t follow Scripture when it comes to Grace and Mercy and Justice for those hurt by his CC pastors…but then claims Grace and Mercy to cover over corruption, adultery, child abuse, child sexual abuse and basically stealing money from the church (though it’s framed as something different, of course).”

    Hmm…yeah, thats what I previously just commented on.
    And they will get their worshippers to forgive them for anything they do.

    I knew a group who remained loyal to a CC I attended, even when there were major issues in the church. I don’t want to get specific…they were steadfast to remain loyal NO MATTER WHAT! Finally, the Pastor was involved in sin that got him taken out, and they finally admitted there was a problem. They are still there. I think the Pastor is being hidden for awhile and will probably be sent to another CC in the future. Of course this is all speculation. I haven’t followed up. But the point is that these are diehard people who will not budge. They will put up with all kinds of situations and believe they are obeying God to stay and not leave. All in the name of mercy, grace and forgiveness.

    So to me you are dealing with a major stronghold.

  262. Spiritual deception is the worst and most dangerous of them all. That is why the Lord gifted some in the church/Church with the gift of discernment to help protect the congregations from charlatans. Church History has many examples of spiritual leaders being chalatans. The CC Church is not exempt from this problem.

  263. I myself have experienced that at the 2 CC churches that I have attended. You will be ignored in a way that has you to believe ” is it just me or what”? IMO, I believe after they see that you have a discerning spirit and are not a weak person they will keep at a distance. CC doesn’t want people who question there authority. Scary to see that christians will not listen to the subtle prompts from God to open their eyes to seer what is happening around them. Wake up people!

  264. The first CC that I attended was a smaller church I was saved, baptized there so I stayed for a few years because I felt I was learning the Bible so having fellowship wasn’t as important. My children expressed the same feelings as well at the first CC.

    But as I have grown as a Christian I know that there has to be more than just been taught the word. Discipleship is important, reaching out to the community is also. Along with many other things….:)

  265. I sometimes use the wrong words in my posts. When I used the word weak, I mean I will speak up. I don’t want to offend someone that’s not my intention. :)

  266. Alex, I thought Cyber-bullying is was unethical? If you feel you were pushed around as a kid/ teen then why haven’t you taken this to the police? Right now, all you are doing is imitating pushy behavior and blogging your punches. What is your motive? As you believe in the bible, our motive should be to love. Your name calling and character bashing to ANY human being is NOT acceptable. You should work on your own life and not try to pull the “big” names out such as famously known CC or Pastors of such. Why not call your blog by your own name….why use another name? It IS all about you and your own opinions. You have a problem with respecting humans. You have no respect/honor/love of anyone but your own self, Alex. You make yourself look like a fool and obviously, your dad must have not done a crime if you haven’t reported it to the police. Pastors are not police.

  267. c, again you are either confused or intentionally trying to protect a child abuser and accused child molester and/or trying to provide cover for Calvary Chapel.

    I am calling out a public figure for abuse and corruption and blowing the whistle on a Pastor who is a legally defined Position of Trust in our Society. Bob Grenier is also the CEO of a 501 c 3 Non Profit Organization (according to the IRS) and he is a Police Chaplain and has Homeland Security Clearances, etc etc.

    Bob Grenier is a danger to children he comes into contact with as a child abuser and accused child molester (Bob’s blood son Paul Grenier is on record with attorneys and others as saying Bob molested him as a child).

    Bob Grenier is a threat to Society and should be held accountable for his actions, which also included financial abuses and corruption as a 501 c 3 Director and Officer.

    Cyber-bullying is what has happened to me by an anonymous person who has followed me around the internet to various blogs and threatened me, slandered me and caused me emotional distress (and I have an IP address now and am working on that case).

    I have reported the crime to police, so have my brothers and aunt and uncle. The statute of limitations, unfortunately, had run out or there would have been an arrest and trial. You obviously haven’t read the whole site and done your homework about this situation.

    In my foray into trying to blow the whistle on Bob Grenier and keep him from hurting others, I have discovered many many other abuses, corruption, moral violations that are disqualifying (adulteries, molestations, financial crimes, criminality, etc) by many other Calvary Chapel Pastors and I’ve since learned that the Calvary Chapel System has a Culture that covers up, lies about and protects many Calvary Chapel Senior Pastors from accountability…Spiritually and sometimes legally/criminally.

    Much is coming, really bad stuff that’s going on. Investigations are under way and there are Agencies now engaged in this and other situations.

    The IRS, Justice Department and other Agencies need to take a very close look at Calvary Chapels and CCOF and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and many of the CC’s. That call is going out and is being responded to.

  268. c is right. You are one sick puppy, Alex. And so are a whole lot of the people posting here. This is pure gossip, this entire thread, and you know what the Lord has to say about that. Proverbs 6:16-19. What is your agenda?

  269. No Marianne..he is far from a sick man. All of us who have been on this journey from the start are well aware of where the problems originate from. Alex and the others on here are not playing games. You have no idea the extent to which this blog runs. We are patient. When the lid eventually blows, you will see what has been concealed for a long time. Throwing your ‘gossip’ card is very cliche now and frankly shows your lack of understanding in regard to what is taking place here. There are some very well placed and deeply thoughtful people reading and monitoring this blog. They do not see it as a trite pile of vile communications. Go read awhile, then come back fully informed before you cast in your lot.

  270. Alex…

    “Much is coming, really bad stuff that’s going on. Investigations are under way and there are Agencies now engaged in this and other situations.

    The IRS, Justice Department and other Agencies need to take a very close look at Calvary Chapels and CCOF and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and many of the CC’s. That call is going out and is being responded to.”

    As much as I find it incredible that this has had to go all this way to get someone to hear what is going on, I am glad that Bob Grenier will have to defend his actions to a civil magistrate of some kind. The IRS will not be friendly if they find mishandling of finances in a non-profit. Nor the Justice Dept. I am sure that whoever handled the finances at CCV can verify the many accounts we have heard over the years of financial mismanagement by Bob Grenier. (The birds are now singing.) If he is found to be guilty of fraud, it will be all over the papers. A much smaller non-profit was splashed over the front page for things much less significant than Grenier has allegedly done.

    Alex is no dummy. He is not going to show his complete hand all at once. But what he has leaked out has been completely backed up and substantiated. All investigative reporters walk a very difficult fine line, and he is trying to navigate it wisely. I consider all this a Severe Mercy. If this corruption is true, then the churches controlled by it must be purged.

  271. @ 273

    Wide Awake, if the authorities are interested, I don’t know facts, but I have great suspicions about one CC’s financial practices not being above board. I’ll be glad to give them the name.

    When people are shown the door for asking about several large purchases, I suspect something’s not right.

  272. Re: Marianne @ 271 said,

    “This is pure gossip, this entire thread.”

    Marianne, I’d like to encourage you to take a quick look at the biblical definition of gossip found here: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=765#comments

    Here’s a biblical review of when to judge and when not to judge you might find helpful found here: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=678#comments

    And here’s a biblical reminder of when we are supposed to tell it to the church, publicly, found here: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=770

    I found there was a vast difference between what I was often taught to think about these subjects and what the Bible actually says about them. You may find these reviews helpful, as well.

  273. stuck in moderation …

  274. Seeing this post made me cry. I must say that women seem to be the problem creators when they try to tell. I wonder what happens to kids and wives who are abused and then finally leave the family? Are they not worthy to serve in ministry? Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall that women in this situation are usually the ones who have to turn away from their calling to help other people in the church. Blessings!

  275. I’ve watched a few CC pastor’s/assistant pastor’s wives call out their husbands on either being abusive or supporting a pastor who is being abusive, but the women are then blamed and “put in their place.” Each time the women are told they are in sin and convinced it is they who need to repent.

    Some women find themselves with one foot in each world: 1. reality 2. The CC way of how things are to be done and what one should think.

    When the wives of these men in ministry speak of reality, they have two choices: 1. Close their eyes and simply submit, OR 2. Divorce. Not much left in-between.

    Anything they choose that is not #1, ends in their being vilified. For them to hang onto their faith is very difficult at that point. They lose all they know about how to love God in their CC environment. They lose their identity. They lose all their friends, and they lose their own family.

    I used to wonder why they put up with and supported such nonsense when they could see it was wrong, but now I get it. The cost is often counted as just too great.

    Women who are reading this, be brave. We all face times in our lives when we have to choose to either follow the pastor or follow Jesus, since they are not going in the same direction. Lean into Jesus. Though your choice to follow Jesus will cost you greatly, it is still right and worth it. God knows how to walk you through this. He can be trusted as you walk out of the only religious world you’ve ever known (for most of you, anyway.) Jesus suffered and died for you! You can “lose your life” for his sake … and watch Him give you more than you ever imagined!

  276. I’m sorry to hear the drama that has gone on behind closed doors. I once read a passage in the bible and it said, if anyone brings back someone from sin, many of his sins real be wipe away. But I read in another passage, that we will not leave the blasphemer unpunished. And that we are accountable for our sins who God keeps a strict account on. We must forgive and pray and pray for the situation. I think with Pastor Bobs preaching, he has brought many back from sin, that they have repented and have accepted Lord God has their savior. All God asked that we do his will. Yes, you can have faith, but faith alone will not save you, it is in your deeds as well.

  277. My other believe is if we have sinned against our brother then we have sinned against God. God lives within us, which is the holy sprit that convicts us. If Pastor Bob has sinned against anyone, he must asked that he be forgiven and God will forgive him. If he does not then how can God forgive him. I believe we are here to do Gods will, not ours. My opinion is that if Pastor Bob does not forgive and repent , there is a hell and a heaven. If we are alive today, then we must hurry and do what is right in GOD eyes. Because a sudden death there no asking for forgiveness, our soul will burn in hell or go to the neither world. I once watched a program on TV and their was a Pastor who divorced his wife and had not forgiven her when he was on earth. Suddenly he past away and died. His garden angle came for him and took him straight to hell, The pastor, said why am I here? The angel said, God asked me to bring you here. He was afraid and said I was a Pastor on earth and helped many people and saved them too. The Angel told him, do you want to know why your here, and he the pastor said yes. God asked me to bring you here, because you did not forgive your x- wife on earth, and the angel mentioned pastor wife name and the Pastor said, that is my x-wife. When suddenly people on earth were praying for the Pastor when he left earth. He was given another chance to live again from God, and repent and ask his wife for forgiveness.

  278. Maiposa,

    The story that you heard was not what the Bible teaches. It is not Biblical to have the living pray for the dead to get “another chance”.

    Although biblically incorrect, your post is a reminder of how important forgiveness is.

  279. I just want to Thank Pastor Bob for his time and his hard work at Calvary Chapel. He has thought me alot and is very good at explaining passages. Who ever has anything against him, then you really need to take it to prayer and don’t doubt God. I believe that’s why gossip starts is because those people are not getting what they want and they are doubting God. We must be-careful what we do and say to GOD , children. After all he his our Father God forever eternity.

  280. Calvary Chapel churches are not the only ones that abuse the Word of God and His people. I was saved in 1973 at the time of the evangelical movement in California. Over the years I attended mostly non-denominational churches (Community Churches). My biblical growth was mostly from home churches. I was blessed with great teachers. In the end, these men were found to be child molesters, etc. BUT my Lord used them in my life and I have a strong foundation in the Word.

    As the years went on my husband, who is now my ex, became carnal. We went to counseling where I was always blamed. I went to our pastor who also told me I wasn’t spiritual. This was in a community church in Vallejo, California. I was never able to hold a position in that church. I cried in prayer silently, and that was not received well. If I was going through a personal problem, that was my problem alone. I was lied to by the pastor. I was ignored by the women.

    Men in the church did not like me to share the Word. I was, after all, a woman. I tried to have a bible study and prayer time for women. This resulted in disaster. I was told the prayers were personal and not to be shared. After a short time, I realized I was up against women who were not open to the word, especially if a strong woman was leading. I was told more than once, regarding my situation, “They are only human”. I understand we Christians are all sinners and continue to sin, but then I ask myself, “Am I only human” also? As time went on, I continued to raise my family and had to work full-time just make expenses such as food and a mortgage. I was criticized for that. We gave weekly to the church. The pastor’s salary was quite large so his wife could be a stay-at-home mom who went to the gym daily and they bought a new home.

    I want to mention that my husband and I were one of the families who helped form this new church in the 1980’s. I loved these people, but continued to be an outsider. Other than Our Lord Jesus Christ, we have nothing in common. I didn’t want to attend baby showers or do some “women” things, such as get my “colors” done. To me, taking care of my family on my non-working hours was first and paying for getting my fashion colors done, was something I wouldn’t spend money on. Again I was an out-of-place woman.

    I never had a vacation. My heart went out to some women in the church who were on welfare and couldn’t afford a vacation or fashionable clothing. Yet from the pulpit we were told about the pastor’s vacations and how important it was for women to get their colors done. I struggled. How was this biblical? God tells us that it is the grandmothers and mothers who teach the children. He tells us that older women teach the younger women. In this church I was not allowed to do what I believed the bible told me to do.

    After years of taking my vacation time to visit family on the east coast helping them, the time came for me to take another emergency vacation to go back east. My mother was dying of lung cancer. I was up against male family members who wanted to put her in a hospital to die. I am the only believer in my family and I prayed for guidance. The short part of the story is: I put my house up as collateral to get my mother in a hospice. She had neither social security, medical insurance, nor welfare. I literally got on my hands and knees and begged the administration to take her. What a time it was as my sister, brothers, an aunt and I ran to ATM machines to come up with money as a down payment. I called my husband the night my mother went into the hospice, only to be told again how my children needed me because he didn’t know how to take care of them, and no one at the church even asked where I had been in the past two weeks. I was told I had to come home the next day because we couldn’t afford to have me miss more work. So, I told my mother I loved her and that I would never see her again. I said “goodbye” to my family and returned to Vallejo. I was met with a messy house, children who hadn’t eaten a good meal since I left, and a husband who complained about a neighbor who bothered him. At church, no one even knew I was gone. When told why I was away, no one said as much as “sorry to hear about your mother” or anything else that would be a comfort. At work, nothing!!!!

    I was angry!!!! I had returned on a Friday and my mother died on the following Monday. Just three more days would have mattered to me! My spiritual husband made my life miserable so I had to be away from my father and siblings at a time they needed me. My spiritual family didn’t know, nor care that I was grieving.

    I stopped going to church soon after. Since I stopped, my so called spiritual husband stopped. He didn’t like attending without me. Note: he was the one who wanted to live in Vallejo for the good churches in Pinole and Vallejo. When I finally decided to return one Sunday evening about six months later, I was prepared. I knew the women would see me and all of a sudden react. Well, they didn’t fail me on that point. As they started coming up the isle toward me, I said, “Don’t hug me, and don’t even tell me you love me, because I know you don’t, and I don’t love you.” With that said, they paused and a few of the brave did approach me.

    I told them how I felt abandoned by them. I also told them how my mother was going to die in a NYC filthy, neglected hospital if I hadn’t (with the help of my sister) gotten her into a hospice. It told them how I had to sign my house over if the bill didn’t get paid. I told them how I had to get on my knees to beg for help. I told them how I had to stand up to my father and threaten to take my mother on a plane and let her die on the way or in California rather than have her die in pain and neglect in a city hospital. My father responded angrily saying I had some nerve coming from California talking that way. I had to stand up to him and one of my brothers, begging for two weeks to see what I could do. I told them how all I could do was cry while telling my mother she was being taken away. I told them how my sister and I worked together to get a city politician to help us get financial help, begging and crying. Our situation was so sad; we had his assistant in tears. Unfortunately, the city worker never filed her paperwork. I told them how we had to get a lawyer to help us. This lawyer was an ambulance chaser, interested in taking my picture! That’s another story. We had our father sign a letter saying he owned his own business but didn’t make enough money to have insurance. He had to admit in this letter he didn’t pay taxes, etc, and how he was in need of help. We didn’t know if our father would be charged for not paying taxes, but we knew we needed help. I told them how my mother soiled herself when given pain suppositories. I told them how I scared the staff when I screamed at them. They wanted to take blood!!! I went to the nurses and told them how I promised my mother she would NOT get needles stuck in her. She would be made comfortable and pain free. I told the staff “if you can cure her, or give her at least another year of life, then take blood, if you can’t, don’t you dare stick a needle in her. I gave my mother my word!” I told them how my children weren’t taken care of in my absence, how my husband didn’t get one phone call.

    Well, I’m leaving out so much, but the point is, nothing came of this. No one changed but me. I became bitter. A friend in the church died of cancer the following year. She was neglected by the church family. I was threatened by her family for interfering. Another long story! My God has brought people, who are dying, into my life. He has shown me I have to read His word. I have to grow in Christ. I have a gift. I have to do this on my own. I left that church years ago and moved back to San Diego. I have tried other churches. I have the foundation in His word. I thank Him for those good teachers.

    America’s church is in a sad condition. I pray that God works in each person’s life individually. Let’s pray that leadership becomes what the bible tells us, not what man wants. Let’s pray that God’s people will be convicted of the sin in the churches and be brave enough to speak out against it!!! Sin needs to be brought into the light!!!!

    Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

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  282. Yikes. I stumbled across this site to see what Bob and Gayle were up to. Looks like things really morphed out of shape for them. Shiloh days of the 70s seems like a long long time ago. Bob was always one of what’s-his-face’s pets…I believe he had been (I decided to delete part of this reference) then became a Christian- or as his story went. The only thing I had a problem with ( and this SO SO SO trivial now) was that he reprimanded me while watching Saturday Night Live back in 1978 as is was evil. Then I heard the next week he watched it and was laughing hard at it. I called him a hypocrite and he was embarrassed. Pretty mild stuff compared to what I am reading here. So this is what became of this Shiloh Royalty member.

  283. Ramona,

    So far I haven’t seen you post again. In reading your story, my heart grew heavy in knowing what you shared is ever so true and has robbed the church body of a person who’s heart is right and gifts were ignored. Please don’t grow weary in your well doing, Ramona. The church body needs more women like you. Have you heard of a parachurch organization:

    http://www.cbeinternational.org/
    http://equalitycentral.com/blog
    http://www.theopedia.com/Egalitarianism

    The first article will be able to give you some direction in finding a church that is balanced in their teachings, is not off in liberal land, yet honors the gifting that you have.

    I am so sorry that the body of Christ failed you. May the Lord of all make a way for you to realize the calling that He has upon you and may all the years that the locust has eaten be restored unto you. Blessing beyond what you have yet known.

    Shalom, in Jesus

  284. Are those really the things that happened? If so why don’t the police care? Have you shared about your homosexuality? Shall we be honest about everything, or just having a one sided bashing? Is it because you are like a girl you sleep with men and need to complain publicly? You and your brother should have grown up by now. Is that your mom I see trying to add to the fire? Yes, such great guidance produces such great children… You guys need to get a grip and get over yourselves. Everyone on earth could create a boo hoo page. :)

  285. Brian

    What does anything you had to share have to do with justifying someone being abused. You sound like an abuser—-are you?

  286. Wow, that sounds like Boob himself posting above!

  287. I thought the same thing, Sheckie.

  288. Bman, who are you addressing?

    I’m not a homosexual, never had a homosexual experience, though Bob Grenier made us shower with him naked on occasion which was creepy and paraded around naked in front of us often (again creepy).

    If you’re referring to Paul’s homosexuality: he claims he was molested by Bob and I believe him. I’m guessing that had a lot to do with Paul’s homosexuality.

    If you’re just being a troll jerk, move along. If you’ve got a personal beef with me, let me know…I’d be happy to meet with you to resolve it (and I doubt you want to meet with me to resolve anything as you are probably about as courageous and secure as your comments).

  289. Bman said, “Everyone on earth could create a boo hoo page.”

    I hope they would if the subject was a Position of Trust in our Society as a current Pastor and Police Chaplain who has special access to kids and is trusted by folks who give him money and let their guard down b/c he’s an ‘anointed’ man of God and all.

    It’s not a “boo hoo” page, it’s a much needed warning to Society to beware…and fortunately, some have taken the warning and ran.

  290. Alex and Linda

    Don’t waste your time on morons like Bman. It is my understanding that Jeff Sheckstein has come out over on another thread and that is a guy who needs to be dealt with.

    Hey Pappas:

    You ever wonder why the founders of mental Heath analysis and treatment, be it psychoanalysis, psychology or the highbrows, psychiatrists, we’re for the most part, Jewish?
    If so, then go over to Sheck and straighten his deranged butt out.

  291. Only God can put a deranged mind back together again.

    Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
    All the kings men and all the king’s people
    Could not put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
    Porr Humpty Dumpty

    I think I would do better to just bind the enemy over him and for God to break his heart. Now, wouldn’t that be something. If he is persecuting the Jews, then ends up being their Champion.

  292. Jeff Greene,

    Can you give me more of clue where this site is? Are you speaking of Jess S or the guy that he sporting with?

  293. Sorry, I mean Jess Sheckstein.

  294. Admin: Please delete 295 and 296

    To Jeff Greene:

    Can you give me more of clue where this site is? Are you speaking of Jeff S or the person he is sporting with over the subject of Jews?

    I was wondering because the name, Sheckstein sounds Jewish, of the Polish or German ghettos (Jewish European communities)

  295. Okay, just check on Jeff Sheckstein.

    Jeff Greene, are you also Shecky Greene?

    Alex, help me out here—–who is Jeff Greene, Shecky Greene, Jeff Sheckstine, Brian, and Bman. I really don’t care to use my time on nonsense. So, please clarify, if you can.

    Thanks.

    By the way, never heard from our friend, but there appears as though my system had an attempt of hacking just when I was doing some checking. Survived it, and it may have been coincidental. Just funny, never heard back from him.

  296. Jeff Green, Sheckstein, Motel 8, and many more alter egos of Mr. Green can be found on this website. We like him. Can’t always understand him, but he’s like a mascot or something. Sometimes his jokes are hilarious, sometimes they bring some needed levity, sometimes they are misunderstood.

    Sheck also adds some insight into legal matters and Chuck Smith as he used to be Chuck Smith’s lawyer. He goes way back and supports Alex’s cause. He’s also a current CC attender and sits on two CC boards. He says they are good ones. They just might be … dunno?

  297. I just read Ramona’s post for the first time and she posted on June 9th.

    Ramona, I’m so sorry for what happened to you!

    I think your post must have been buried by another more active thread, else someone would have responded, I’m sure.

  298. Thanks, Grateful

    Hard to take someone serious or to keep up when a person take on so many different identities. It causes me to wonder what their agenda is for doing so. Thanks for clarifying these “characters” for me.

  299. “I heart Sheck” is another one. After awhile you’ll catch on when he uses another name. He leaves clues just for fun.

  300. [...] did a bit more searching to find out the back story. You can find Alex's personal story here.  Below are a couple of paragraphs describing Alex's story in a nutshell and the purpose [...]

  301. [...] did a bit more searching to find out the back story. You can find Alex’s personal story here.  Below are a couple of paragraphs describing Alex’s story in a nutshell and the purpose of [...]

  302. [...] turn of events in a post, Calvary Chapel-Mini-Moses Bob Grenier Sues His Own Son here.  Here is a link to a blog, Calvary Chapel Abuse on which Alex began to tell his story of abuse. We also thank Julie [...]

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  306. Alex,

    When we all stand in the presence of our Holy God to give an account of our lives (Romans 14:10-12) and your Dad’s name is called, will you rejoice when Jesus’ blood is accounted as payment for his sins? Or will your voice be heard along with “the accuser” (Revelation 12:10)?

    Recently the Lord showed me that not only did He pay for my sins on the cross, He also suffered and died for the sins of those who have wronged me. It helps me to be able to forgive them knowing that ultimately it is the same blood that cleanses us all.

    Love in Christ,
    BB

  307. At the heart of all of Calvary Chapels’ problems lies the Moses Model: one-person rule. Taken from the Old Testament scenario of Moses leading the Israelites, this example proves disastrous when applied to the church and for a very good reason. We were not meant to be under this kind of leadership as the church. The book of Acts and the Epistles reveal a different apporach because the scenario and the times are very different. A plurality of elders and congregational participation make the church in the New Testament run. This is how the people of God are supposed to operate in these times. Calvary Chapel stunts church growth and breeds corruption through its Moses style of leadership. Until the movement addresses this, it will continue to face complaints and allegations. The Roman church, which practices something very similar under the name episcopacy, has had the same problem for years. The way forward is for the Calvary Chapel movement to alter its polity — to adopt a plurality of elders in accordance with the Scriptural example. If Scripture affords an example like that, I think we should listen. Whatever improvisation we may undergo, church government ought to remain (presbyteros) elder-run. In fact, Judaism practiced that already and St. Paul and others simply carried it forward as scholars have pointed out.

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