Aug 082012
 

Some of the most sinister behavior is knowing there is wrongdoing that is hurting people...and engaging in covering it up, staying silent and withholding action.

If you attend one of the 2,000 Calvary Chapels out there who revere Chuck Smith as the founder and leader of the CC Movement / Denomination / Association…you would most likely expect that Calvary Chapel would not support child abuse, financial corruption, lying, stealing from God’s money, pornography, adultery, child molestation and other egregious wrongdoing…correct?

You would also most likely expect that if Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Leadership were aware of any of the above serious issues…they’d certainly do something about it…no?

The terrible stuff above has happened in spades System-wide…and CCOF and Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel Leadership has been made aware of so many situations it would make your head spin. Now that the Calvary Chapel Molestation lawsuits have been dropped in Idaho, it appears Chuck Smith is back to recognizing that he does in fact have “control, responsibility and authority” to tell the other 2,000 CC’s how the New Calvary Chapel is going to be structured and run. At least that lying ruse seems to be over for now.

So, now that Calvary Chapel is back in the “handling problems” business (per the email sent out by Chuck Smith and confirmed in correspondence by Don McClure, see article we featured from PhoenixPreacher.net that first reported that news) through an Ecclesiastical Structure…what gives when egregious sins are ongoing and have never been addressed in a right manner with regards to sitting fully endorsed Calvary Chapel Pastors?

Is it OK for a Church Leadership to be silent over serious sins and wrongdoing by their affiliated Pastors? Is it OK for Church Leadership to take no action when there is consistent testimony and even admission of serious sin?

When a Church Association like Calvary Chapel promotes the answer and recourse for “problems” as “vote with your feet”…how can an uninformed Calvary Chapel Church goer cast an informed vote if the stuff is covered over and covered up?

Would you want to know if your affiliated Calvary Chapel Pastor was accused of child molestation? Would you want to know if your affiliated Calvary Chapel Pastor had a long-term problem with pornography? Would you want to know if the Leader of the entire Movement / Denomination you are involved in approached his Board many years ago and considered leaving the ministry for another woman?

When does Silence and Inaction become willful sin and wrongdoing to cover over other sin and keep those giving millions and millions of dollars to the “ministry” in the dark on purpose?

Right now, Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia is a fully affiliated, protected and endorsed Calvary Chapel Pastor. It was reported by Michael Newnham of PhoenixPreacher.net that three Calvary Chapel Pastors were finally on their way to defrock Grenier for the mountain of wrongdoings he’s committed over the years (piles of testimonies, sins ranging from physical child abuse to corruption to spiritual abuse to pill popping to being accused by his blood son Paul of molestation)…only to have Chuck Smith who has claimed on a recent radio interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yE6p1WgNM to have “no control and no responsibility” for what goes on at other “independent” Calvary Chapels and has promoted the same lie from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6ydHm_lwKs …stop the defrocking / church discipline cold in its tracks.

Bob Grenier is a microcosm of the sin that is protected and tolerated by the highest level of the Ecclesiastical Structure in Calvary Chapel…to the level of Chuck Smith. So many more examples exist out there…many ongoing and unresolved. I get email after email, phone call after phone call, testimony after testimony. Calvary Chapel Pastors like Steve Wright of Calvary Chapel Lake Elsinore have often touted that for such a large Church organization, CC has very little problems and scandals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Calvary Chapel Leadership is actively engaged in keeping the truth from the public, which is lying and possibly fraudulent.

Should Church Leadership tell you the truth? Do you have the right to know? Would you still attend and give your time and money if you knew a Calvary Chapel Pastor was engaged in serious sin and hadn’t repented? Would you still attend and give your time and money if you knew the affiliated Calvary Chapel Pastor was accused of child molestation? Would you want the Church to investigate the claims?

These are serious issues…and they aren’t going away any time soon.

 Posted by at 6:26 am

  200 Responses to “Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel: Saying nothing is saying something. Taking no action is taking action.”

  1. Some in CC are followers of a cult of personality.

    The bad fruit of a cult of personality: http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/e804278b00209d8bc32ba1e981d38b51-1090.html

    Why do people blindly follow a man, in any “denomination”?

    Because for them, facing the true Jesus Christ, and what He wants…. they don’t want to do that. It’s “safer” for them to follow a man.

    It’s “safer” to be “Martin Luther’s Disciple”.

  2. MLD / Gene Schneider, I wasn’t mocking Michael yesterday. People have their say here, just like all sorts of folks at PP mocked me. I knew Michael didn’t like the mocking, but it’s part of the blog dynamic.

    I think Michael has done a lot of good reporting and his sources were good most of the time. I believe that three CC pastors were on their way to defrock Bob Grenier and that Chuck Smith intervened and took action and exercised control and authority and stopped the church discipline. That’s wrong.

  3. MLD / Gene Schneider, I can repeat a very very long list of names I was called and things I was mocked as over and over and over at the PP. I didn’t take it as Michael mocking me.

  4. Yikes, wow,another attrack on my moniker. Never a case against my words though.

    So, why do you not use the name of Jesus Christ in your moniker then?

  5. Yikes, yes, there is very much a Cult of Personality dynamic in Calvary Chapel…and that dynamic tends to be passed down the Ecclesiastical Chain to some of the other CCSP’s.

  6. MLD, your words are empty. You said your only reason for coming to this website, was to be an instigator. That makes everything you say, of no value at all.

  7. Also folks, if you are new to this site – do not post, because because Alex/Chuck will track you down and “out” you – as evidenced by his use of my name and the several others he has “outted” here.

    Alex/Chuck also tracks you by your IP addresses as he did with Scott yesterday.

    New readers ALERT – do not believe the blog author – run, as if you were running from a Calvary Chapel!! Run, run run – this is a dangerous place.

  8. MLD / Gene Schneider you present another False Dilemma.

    Physical protesting is not the lone “action” one can take in addressing the abuse.

    Blogging is a form of online protest and I have physically met with Chuck Smith at my expense and I have spent much time and money…countless hours of interviews, research, lobbying pastors to do something, turning over information to lawyers and authorities etc etc.

    Some protests would be great. I would love to see some physical protests around Costa Mesa.

    Gene, maybe you can volunteer and help organize that.

  9. And, folks, if you are new to this site: MLD / Gene Schneider is a 60 plus year old man who lives in California, works in real estate, is a die-hard Dodger’s fan, seems to be a good husband and father, is a well-versed Lutheran, but pretty spotty on the logic and keeping track with things.

  10. MLD / Gene, I have never mocked Michael, other than teased him about his height over there a couple of times over the years and poked at the Calvinism early on there. You’re lying.

  11. MLD / Gene said, “but no one used you as a source of information”

    Wrong. Michael used me as a source of information in reporting on the Bob Grenier situation. Michael interviewed me, collected testimonies, researched my claims, contacted Bob Grenier for his side of things etc etc.

  12. Alex,
    You used to talk about the importance of protesting abortion clinics and stopping babies from being killed – but you won’t get off your but, or even encourage your follower to to stop what you call crimes at CC.

    Don’t just sit at your computer in your underwear – get out and do something… or perhaps this isn’t about the children – perhaps this is just your pride.

  13. See what I mean – you can’t address anything I say, all you can do is release information – just as you allowed to happen to Michael yesterday.

    When Scott accused you of porn and child porn addiction yesterday – I was the first one to chastise him – even before any of your phoney followers did. I said he was 100% wrong

    Yet yesterday, you let your mouthpiece just rip Michael a new one.

  14. MLD / Gene, you can obfuscate all you want. I’ve already addressed that issue with you. I can’t go protest at CCV as it would be unwise and would invite physical confrontation. My wife and my mother-in-law did go on the CCV campus during services to try and introduce my kids to their Grandmother (my Mom) and were surrounded by 6 Calvary Chapel ushers/security guards (all men) and ushered out of the building and told to leave. They did that to women and children. If I had been there, it would’ve gotten ugly and I won’t put myself in that unwise position.

  15. There have been some others like Not Alone who have looked into some sort of physical protest and I support their efforts and would help with graphics and sign production etc.

  16. The other issue is that I find physical protests to be not very effective…and I don’t recall advocating protesting abortion clinics as my first or even second or even third choice for confronting abortion. Maybe you can support that claim with a copy and paste of me making that case.

  17. Nick VanderLaan stood up in protest of Ergun Caner speaking at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and was surrounded by CCCM guards/ushers, cuffed up, held against his will, arrested etc. He fought the charges and won.

  18. Alex/Chuck,
    I want a clear understanding of the ground rules here – is posting of private information about people here going to be the norm here. You posted a bunch of private info about me here – are you going to leave it up?

    Or are you calling on all of us to act in kind. Do you want some of your private info uploaded?

  19. What’s private about you being old, being a dodger’s fan, living in SoCal, working in real estate, being a Lutheran apologist and being a good dad and husband? You’ve promoted such many times online at PP and elsewhere…and now it’s “private information”? LOL.

  20. Here’s my “private” info:

    I am not so old (39 again), I am also a dodger’s fan, I live in Boise Idaho, I own pawn and gun stores, I am a Christian (no real Box I identify completely with) and a good dad and husband also.

  21. If you are worried I’m going to post your social security number, medical records, credit report, phone number or home address…then no. That is “private” information.

  22. Alex/Chuck,
    Because people thow out the private info – publicly out who people are and threaten to track IP addresses as a method of silencing the opposition.

    These are the same actions tht you accuse CC leadership of doing – silencing the opposition.

    Now do you see how you have morphed into what you hate?

    Telling people where I live is not safe for my family, considering who some of your fans are.

    I just ask that you remove the private info, call me MLD (respect you show to the yes men here) and move on with conversation about the issues.

  23. MPD

    I have read all your posts here and find it interesting how you mis-direct and twist words in a very immature way.

    Are you guys sure this poster, MLD, is really a 60+ year old man? Sounds more like a late teen early 20s type on Facebook.

    MLD, if it is really you, your use of others posts and accusations is very unbecoming. You twist more words than a late night soap opera.

  24. “That is “private” information”

    Again you redefine words to meet your needs, with no concern about if I want people to know where I live.

  25. Mld

    “Because people thow out the private info – publicly out who people are and threaten to track IP addresses as a method of silencing the opposition.”

    You just confirmed more of how Michael treated people at pp. When anyone challenged him and his position he would bite back thus and worse.

    Now this blog is becoming pretty low but in a different way and I think you are fitting in well.

  26. MLD/Gene you have said you live in that area several times on the PP. I’m just going by what you’ve stated publicly online. You are paranoid. There is no threat to you or your family. If someone threatens you, let me know, I’ll be the first to call the police on your behalf.

    Yes, there are online footprints, that’s a fact. A person like Scott should consider that interjecting viewing child porn is possibly actionable in a court room and should refrain from those types of accusations.

  27. MLD / Gene, if you don’t want people to know where you live (in non-specific general geography), why did you post it online several times on an open blog site?

  28. Since you’re such a paranoid, I changed it to California. Good? Or would United States make you feel better? Planet earth? LOL.

  29. I think the important issue is that Inaction is Action and Silence is speaking.

    The so-called “good” Calvary Chapel Pastors and Leaders (like Dave Rolph, Ron Arbaugh, Tom Stipe, Steve Wright, Shaun Sells, etc etc etc) who stay silent publicly are speaking volumes….and when they don’t take action, it’s action in support of the Calvary Chapel Association’s Status Quo.

  30. Just so you know one can’t track a bloggers ip address beyond the server he/she is using. This only gives locality and will not cause someone to pull up to your door and arrest you. If there is criminal activity involved the courts can request the server to provide more accurate info.

    Michael used the threat of ip address tracking falsley to put fear into people. A blog can block ip addresses but that normally will block more than just an individual.

    Now if a person would like to find out about a web site and its owner that info is available readily unless the service provider offers a generic address to its subscribers

    Oh well enough

  31. And, Gene, when you compare me to Chuck Smith and ascribe what you say I am…aren’t you more indicting a Church Leader Pastor/Elder who is held to a higher standard and stricter judgment per Scripture?

    I think you’re actually helping the cause by making such a comparison LOL.

  32. alex,
    So why isn’t Gene dealing with the subject of the article?

    “well, ur ugly and ur momma dresses you fiunny…”

    come again? real mature (or should i say manure)

    one of the housekeeping rules on my blog ‘homestead’ is attempting to stay on topic and no personal attacks. those may be helpful dealing with comenters who become abusers themselves.
    my 2cents

  33. Wow, yes, it requires a subpoena from the Service Provider. I’ve actually been involved in that process.

    If I become aware of any specific threat of criminal violence to an individual like Gene, I would report it right away. There is no such threat, Gene is acting like a paranoid.

    For those posting, truth is your best defense. If you have a reasonable belief to believe something is true based on sources who were there, on the inside, directly involved in a situation, have evidence of your claim, personally experienced something and are expressing your take and opinion about it etc then you’re within the law from what I can gather (but I’m not a lawyer…yet). If you choose to make something up out of thin air that damages/harms another person, you are probably opening yourself up to trouble.

  34. MiC, yes, I was moderated and so were others several times for not staying on topic etc.

    I hate to do it, but if I have to, I will follow the example of others :smile:

    Be a good boy Gene.

  35. MiC, (what is your last name for the record)

    “So why isn’t Gene dealing with the subject of the article?”

    I did address the article – read my firat several posts. I addressed that Alex does the same thing he wrote about in the article.

    Tell us your last name.

  36. Alex,
    I am following the rules exactly as you stated them. You invited me to come back on here – the only thing you put off limits was your family.

    I have held up my end of the deal – are you going to go back on your end?

  37. I wish everyone would use their names, but I have many friends who don’t for a variety of reasons.

    I liked it when guys like Bryan Stupar, Daniel Fusco, Shaun Sells, Dave Rolph etc would use their names, while guys like Steve Wright would go anonymous (for much of the time there).

  38. I do know some guys who go anonymous because they received real threats to “harm their family” from their involvement in dealing with some very bad things in Calvary Chapel. The threat was reported to authorities but the perp was never caught.

  39. Now now boys, you are acting so juvenile. Each cutting the bread into nanometers, and even wrestling at the DNA level. Don’t loose sight of the bigger picture.

    No one can deny, only explain away, a serious problem at the core of CC. There is corruption. If the Grenier situation was the only problem among the 2000 affiliates, then the inaction and tolerance of an evil man in the pulpit who sexually molested one of his sons, while physically and emotionally abusing the others, as well as a host of other very serious accusations involving fraudulent use of church funds, is just as bad as allowing Achan to remain in the camp. “Achan” has sinned. He needs to be removed, period!

    Alex is an eye witness to that abuse, and a victim of it. Let’s give him some credit, he is trying to rise above being a victim to being an agent of protection against further abuse.

    I have read 80-90% of this blog, and watched this story play out from before the beginning.I would say that a large chunk of what is written about both here and at PP is idle conversation. Bickering. Useless. But this blog has merit because it has begun on the kernel of truth that a serious crime had been done against humanity, and that crime was done by a Senior Pastor representing Calvary Chapel.

    I don’t know how this has turned so much into an Alex Show, or an Alex Roast. It is obvious to the active reader, that Alex, by his own admission, brings this on himself at times. But this is not an Alex Show. From the start, the premise was that Bob Grenier is a poop head, and now you know why. All of you have seen how Chuck Smith dealt with it. Time has established the juvenile, and even more serious reality, that Senior Leadership is inept to deal with sin when it is in the leadership rank. Pathetic. Irresponsible. Pure sin.

    I left CC along time ago, and will never give another dollar to that establishment. I see it as one of the blights on the American Church today, and its influence is shameful. Sure there has been good but the history books will show the bigger issues, some documented here, to be what has added confusion and pain to many lives who were on genuine searches for God. I pity Chuck Smith. I have little pity for Bob Grenier. I hurt for Alex and his brothers. I’m sad this has had to all come out in the wash.

    Stop bickering and summarize this. Leave your personal jabs for the underworld. Rise up and be real men of God who display godly character in all your speech, and be quick to reconcile. Also, when you view Alex’s actions, and I make no excuse for them, remember he suffered an entire childhood under the despicable cruelty of Bob Grenier. Can you see the results. It’s obvious to us who live near it all.

  40. Alex,
    You do protect identities – like the guy who confirmed to you that DR molests children – you have not revealed his name.

    What I tell people in one place does not mean that I want it in view of others.

    But that’s OK, if you want to be 2 faced, conceal the identities of others who use a moniker – and rexeal mu name and info – I can’t stop you – all I can do is call you out on it and warn others that you will track them down and out them

    If you choose to have no integrety, what can I say other than “Your blog, your rules “

  41. “I do know some guys who go anonymous because they received real threats to “harm their family” from their involvement in dealing with some very bad things in Calvary Chapel.”

    OK, I will try this – I have had threats so stop using my name.

  42. Wide Awake, agreed…very much so. Good post.

    Gene you’re full of nonsense, more than usual. No one asserted that about Dave other than you. I’d be careful if I were you. He might take that as you stating such.

    Concealing the identity of sources is common legitimate practice in journalism for those who have their own reasons for not being named.

    Chuck Smith and Dave Rolph have recourse if they want to challenge what I’ve written. They know who I am and where to find me.

  43. You were threatened by someone who participates on this blog site? Seriously?

  44. Wide Awake said, “From the start, the premise was that Bob Grenier is a poop head, and now you know why. All of you have seen how Chuck Smith dealt with it. Time has established the juvenile, and even more serious reality, that Senior Leadership is inept to deal with sin when it is in the leadership rank. Pathetic. Irresponsible. Pure sin.”

    Yes, those are the core issues…and the rest is nonsense like you said.

  45. alex,
    great vid on the rise of hitler and the role that the ‘church’ had in accepting his crap. also bonhoffer’s words at the end are possibly applicable to the present political environment as well as enlightening on the ‘dangers’ of men allowing themselves to be lifted up as heroes or idols.
    the link may mark it as spam or in moderation. i have the best of intentions, so could you let it go thru if it does? thx
    http://www.awesomestories.com/assets/bonhoeffer-opposes-hitler

    -mike

  46. Sheck?

    Do you really think anyone cares whether Chuck Smith clears $20 million or $90 million this year? Do you think it matters to anyone that CC Senior leadership, on average, gets personal salary proportional to high corporate executives? Do you really think anyone cares that pastors are getting rich, some filthy rich, off of weekly giving to the Lord’s work?

    I wonder Sheck, if Fleetwood Mac was still writing songs, would they even care to pen a single line about the cool pastor from Orange County. Would Bob Dylan write a protest song about the ‘corporate greed’ in the CC ranks? BTW Sheck…I love Dylan’s Infidels album. Familiar with it? Lot’s of parallels in there.

    Whoops…I better limit this idle chatter…

  47. “Whoops…I better limit this idle chatter…”

    LOL :smile:

  48. MLD you got mail.

  49. odd how the vid identifies the ‘evangelical church’ but when the picture comes up uf herr hitler shaking hands with the ‘ministers’, it’s a RCC archbishop and a Lutheran minister. not so ‘evangelical’. wonder why they didn’t just say RCC and Lutheran?

    by the way, historically both the RCC and the Lutheran Churches have been anti-semitic. as someone earlier pointed out on a different thread, Luther was well known by his own writings for hating the Jews and advocating their wiping out (whatever that meant for him).
    again, gene, I’d find another ‘namesake’ to be a ‘disciple’ of. Jesus perhaps!
    -mike

  50. MLD…do not minimize the reality of danger a person enters into when whistle-blowing. These pastors are very human, and they are in ‘danger’ of loosing a lot of money if they are found out. The serious investigators are quite deep, and they remain so because of the imminent threat to their lives…no joke.

    I would encourage you to raise your level of speech to something less childish. You seem like a good man, so speak like one. Same for all of us if we want anyone to believe what we say.

  51. Wide Awake said, “I left CC along time ago, and will never give another dollar to that establishment. I see it as one of the blights on the American Church today, and its influence is shameful. Sure there has been good but the history books will show the bigger issues, some documented here, to be what has added confusion and pain to many lives who were on genuine searches for God. I pity Chuck Smith. I have little pity for Bob Grenier. I hurt for Alex and his brothers. I’m sad this has had to all come out in the wash.”

    Very well put.

  52. Alex,
    You didn’t only shield your source, you did not identify the crime of which you are accusing DR (see I don’t throw names around like you)

    You just toss out the red meat to your crew.

  53. Gene Schneider said on FaceBook ” You guys need to come over and join me at Alex’s site. I have been messing with them for 2 days – driving them crazy.”
    Monday at 6:23pm · Like · 3

  54. Not Alone 53 — Gene obviously doesn’t practice what he preaches. If messing with people is the best use of 2 days of his life…

  55. He has no reason to be hear but to take away from your message. That is his stated purpose.

    Ban the old goat please.

  56. Wide Awake (again, i’m sorry i can’t know who i’m talking to)

    i agree with you on the call back to the basis of the article and the blogs purpose and away from the drivel that ‘some people’ would rather us get ‘blogged’ down in (clever pun, no charge) :)
    and this is not an attack so please don’t take it as such.

    But you said ” …and they are in ‘danger’ of loosing a lot of money if they are found out. The serious investigators are quite deep, and they remain so because of the imminent threat to their lives. no joke”
    they are only in danger of their ‘lively-hoods’ and loosing a lot of money because they would rather ‘stay silent’ or say ‘just enough’ to stay under the radar than to take a ‘real hard’ stand and maybe lose their jobs or church ministries within the system.
    i rather doubt that loss of livelyhood rises to the level of ‘mortal’ life/death threats.
    it might be best not to mix terms and implications like that. those who just want to marginalize or paint alex or others trying to ‘whistleblow’ as wack jobs or ‘hurt people who hurt people’ might use the inconsistence to further their agendas of shutting down the conversation or defelecting attention away from what alex is trying to say. just my take.
    -mike

  57. His sole purpose here is not to stand for anything good and honorable, MLD is just here to “mess” with us. To teach Alex a lesson at the expense of all of us. Any new poster who comes here to share his story or seek acceptance in this group of misfits, will be driven away by MLD. He’s not acting like Alex on PP, he is acting like the others we have banned here in the past.

    If a poster came to PP purely for sake of messing with Michael, he would have been gone days ago.

    Unlike PP, we are here 1st for those cast out and harmed by CC. I think this game with MLD has gone on long enough.

  58. alex,

    wasn’t that the point of the article today? silence is complicity?

  59. MLD,
    I don’t appreciate being lumped into your name calling.
    I think itis a low blow. You said you usually don’t challenge women (or something to that effect) yesterday to me, but you seem to have no problem calling me names. It would take too long to read over everything to find the exact ones.

    You are doing here exactly what you accuse Alex of doing on the other blog. So you already made a point. It seems that you are hunting down Alex. The difference is that not everyone entertained Alex’s posts there, unlike you who seem to be right on his tail.

    The wounded have had a place for comfort here.
    And there have been some such as grateful that has taken the time to come alongside them. There is a real need for this kind of ministry.

    I am busy and not open to debate. I am sure you have a rebuttal for this post.
    Lets all pretend that Jesus is sitting right next to us at our keyboard and ask Him to direct our hands.

  60. “You guys need to come over and join me at Alex’s site. I have been messing with them for 2 days – driving them crazy.”

    Theres only one fallen creature responsible for this evil.

  61. “Some people object because they feel I gloss over certain passages of Scripture, and they’re correct”. – Chuck Smith

    “If there is any verse that you would like left out of the Bible, that is the verse that ought to stick to you, like a blister, until you really attend to its teaching”. – Charles Spurgeon

  62. gene,
    “Not Alone is a cyber stalker” ?

    (overheard one english morning…)

    Pot: “hello kettle”
    Kettle: “oh, top of the morning to you too”
    Pot: “I say old man, did you know your pallor is looking a bit darker today?”
    Kettle: “Why, I hadn’t noticed. Thank you very much for your kind discretion and Holmsian attention to detail. I shall forthwith repair to my abode to remediate this condition.”
    ((richard))
    -mike

  63. as my mother-in-law’s ‘Okie’ husband would say…

    “i don’t care who you are, that’s funny right ther”

  64. LOL Mic

  65. Thank you, Wide Awake!

  66. thanks Not Alone,

    gotta keep the Hunns back somehow, eh?

  67. sorry, that was Huns, one N, not two.

  68. @ michael…

    I can be guilty of hyperbole but in this case, I think I’m correct. There are sources, in other religious contexts, who have been mysteriously dissolved. Some sources in this case, have been threatened and harassed. I don’t mean to over state this but the reality of the way victims of abuse have been treated when speaking up, is recourse to be cautious and thoughtful in the way we speak on this or other blogs.

    I’ll also say here, I am not a blind follower of Alex. I will not defend his questionable actions. He knows me, respects me, and I speak my mind. I keep trying to point out that Alex is a direct victim of abuse. Alex Grenier was brutally abused during a childhood by Bob Grenier. I don’t know many who know BG who would deny Alex’s allegations. I can verify that Alex is a truth teller. He is also a highly charged electron with unpredictable orbits. True. But you must listen to these charges, decide if they are based on plausible truth, then help him rectify the problem. If you are a CC Senior pastor, and only offer tripe and fat on here and PP, then decide the case, and politely close your mouth or speak up for the kid.

    I have little respect for any minister of the Gospel, who is a clever Bible teacher, yet will not be concerned enough to have the mind of a true shepherd, and ‘go after the one lost sheep’. CC is being played out as a band of fools. And many of them are. This is not going away, and you may see worst to come from the filth within the leadership ranks. I truly believe Alex is sitting on a mountain of information that will severely hurt those who keep attacking his right to bring these charges forward. We’ll see. The last three years have validated much that was hinted at at the beginning. Beware.

  69. wide awake,

    I totally agree with and appreciate your position. Well said.
    -mike

  70. BTW michael…my name is Bryan. I just used my old name for two reasons. 1. I like it. 2. It reminds me to be alert at all times.

    I was concerned about my identity in the early days but with millions reading this, I think the problem is very widespread. I don’t have first hand evidence but many have confided in me, and I felt it was a duty to stand with Alex and his brothers even if no one else would. Obviously several have. Blessings to all. And…let’s pray there will be an outpouring of righteousness soon.

  71. good to meet you brother bryan

  72. Alex, have you filed your complaint letter yet with the new CC regional leader? Do you think there is a provision to escalate to the CCA council if the region takes no interest in your case?

  73. MLD is doing the same as he did over at pp. The man continously challenges by twisting words, miss-stating what other say and constantly saying his denomination does everthing most right.

    His character has shown its heart over these past two days on this blog, but so have many others.

    Interestingly when the restraints are removed how our hearts are revealed. Maybe that is the purpose of God’s instructions, they reveal how we need to change.

  74. I agree Observer, We all must examine our actions over the last few days.

  75. Observer said:

    “You just confirmed more of how Michael treated people at pp. When anyone challenged him and his position he would bite back thus and worse.”

    This I agree with, Michael responds often with insults at those who disagree, not the temperment a Pastor is supposed to have.

  76. Alex said:

    “The so-called “good” Calvary Chapel Pastors and Leaders (like Dave Rolph, Ron Arbaugh, Tom Stipe, Steve Wright, Shaun Sells, etc etc etc) who stay silent publicly are speaking volumes….and when they don’t take action, it’s action in support of the Calvary Chapel Association’s Status Quo”

    Maybe because the above men don’t have the intestinal fortitude to Walk Tall

  77. And just to make MLD happy

    I’m 38 years old, a good father of three children who live with me, I was a bad husband as I am now divorced. I love the Minnesota Vikings, Jimmy “Superfly” Snuka, The St. Louis Blues and Minnesota Twins. I am a registered Process server and Notary in the Great State of California. I live in Montebello, ca. home of a certain false teacher in the “Franchise” known as Calvary “We Love Chuck” Chapel. I have big brown eyes with light skin and stand at 6 feet tall on a 205 pound frame.

  78. MIC Said:

    “by the way, historically both the RCC and the Lutheran Churches have been anti-semitic. as someone earlier pointed out on a different thread, Luther was well known by his own writings for hating the Jews and advocating their wiping out (whatever that meant for him).
    again, gene, I’d find another ‘namesake’ to be a ‘disciple’ of. Jesus perhaps!”

    Yup, I don’t know much abouth this Luther guy but I know that Jesus dies on the cross for me. There were always true believers long before the reformation, the Waldenses, the Albegenses, Lawlers etc. I identify more with their heritage rather than the reformers

  79. Didn’t one famous CC Pastor admit to putting a hit on someone and then retracting it after his wife scolded him. Hint, it’s a CC Pasot is known for having a violent past

  80. Solomon…

    The thugs are on their way to snatch you up and confine you in the Fortress of Solitude for “reeducation” using chuck’s 2000 series until such a time as you either kiss the ‘fisher’s ring’ or apologize for touching God’s annointed, tarnishing his gold plated halo and causing others to question the security of his ego.
    it would be best if you just un dress, remove your shoes and place all of your valuables in the nearest non-BPA containing plastic bag for collection and donation to said ‘great leader’ huddle silently and tremblingly in the NE corner of your home… make sure you have memorized the layout and orientation of the room for future nostalgia purposes because this will be your last look at freedom till The Dove sets you ‘free indeed’
    (just kidding, no one’s coming)
    -mike

  81. Taken….
    “He will find you… and He will grin like the Cheshire Cat that he is”
    -mike

  82. WA Said:

    “I have little respect for any minister of the Gospel, who is a clever Bible teacher, yet will not be concerned enough to have the mind of a true shepherd, and ‘go after the one lost sheep’. CC is being played out as a band of fools. And many of them are. This is not going away, and you may see worst to come from the filth within the leadership ranks. I truly believe Alex is sitting on a mountain of information that will severely hurt those who keep attacking his right to bring these charges forward. We’ll see. The last three years have validated much that was hinted at at the beginning. Beware.”

    That’s why I believe that Chuck Smith is a WOLF in sheeps clothing, fails to protect and feed the sheep but is a ravenous wolf and Ravenous=Plunder and he plunders the sheep via ten percent tithe so he can live richly offf the hard work of the brethren. Maybe he should take Paul’s example and work with his hands so that he can boast. Chuck fleeces the sheep.

  83. Mic,

    LOL!!

  84. i guess if Gene/FML (Follower of Martin Luther) can talk out of his *** then so can I just try to use humor ‘everyone’ can laugh at
    -mike

  85. Sol,
    I’m compiling all these for a coffee table book for sale at the CCCM ‘money changers’… I mean bookstore this Christmas
    (again, not really… just kidding)

  86. As a wrestling fan I can appreciate what Michael is doing at the PP blog. In the short time I have been following him he has shut down the blog twice. It’s the old retirment or LosEr Leaves Town angle that use to proliferate pro wrestling in the kayfabe days. A wrestler would say that he is retiring after an injury and then the fans would clamor for his comeback, think Ricky Steamboat circa 1987 or Ric Flair circa 1989. Or in a Loser Leaves Town angle, a wrestler would have to leave the territory for 60-90 days and then retrun as a conqering hero after the fans thisrst for his comeback. Think Junkyard Dog circa 1982 or Jerry Lawler circa 1986. It’s good physcology.

  87. Mic,

    Gotta make sure you charge top dollar tho, God forbid anything in their book stores is at a reasonable price

  88. Alex said:

    “The so-called “good” Calvary Chapel Pastors and Leaders (like Dave Rolph, Ron Arbaugh, Tom Stipe, Steve Wright, Shaun Sells, etc etc etc) who stay silent publicly are speaking volumes….and when they don’t take action, it’s action in support of the Calvary Chapel Association’s Status Quo”

    Sol Rod said,
    “Maybe because the above men don’t have the intestinal fortitude to Walk Tall”
    ____________

    I don’t know the men’s hearts, but my observation from within the walls with Tom Stipe is that what he said about Scripture was often different than how he applied it to his walk.

    When I knew him in the 90s, he was characterized by outbursts of anger where he’d fire an entire room of staff at one time.

    Stipe was elusive when it came to heads of ministries in his church who needed him to approve their plans before they could act. I was in such a ministry and we could not get an appointment with him for over 6 months. We were paralyzed in the meantime.

    I respect Stipe for several difficult stands he took, such as calling Heitzig out, as well as the Kansas City prophets. And when he radically changed the culture of his church from one that valued highly the prophetic over the Word to one that valued the Word, with the attempt to make everything else submit to it.

    I did not respect his sense of arrogance, his public statements he made that he did not need to be accountable to anyone, nor his handling of finances or issues within the church. Stipe’s people skills are not well developed which I suspect affects his ability to lead by example and to actually love others very well.

    The culture of the church, when I was there for a decade, included people on staff believing that Tom and MaryEllen (his wife) were able to know the motives and intents of people’s hearts very quickly, that they didn’t need to get to know people to know about them; therefore, they could make quick decisions about others. The staff members have little good to say about their time there.

    It is possible that Tom did not get involved, chose to remain silent about fallen CC pastor Bob Grenier, because his speaking out about Heitzig didn’t result in any action in CC. I dunno, but it could be that simple. At worst, it could be that he doesn’t want anyone to investigate him, though I lean towards the first from impressions only.

  89. the wrestling senario thing works for me a bit in analysing the PP and it’s blogmeister, but is the whole “i’m hurt, YOU MADE me do this, I’m going away..” (.till enough people can clammer for my return) ala The Rock hand cupped to the ear, standing on the top rung…

    but i’m goning to reserve judgement on this one. Michael may indeed be re revaluating and self examining. though i disagree with him on many things, i think i should allow him the benefit of self relection.

  90. Sol,

    Oh yeah, “Can you Suhh-meeellllll-la-la-lah, What the PP’s Cooking?”

    -mike

  91. Finally we are getting back to a subject upon which we can all agree. The value of professional wrasslin’ on this blog. It cheers…it warms the heart…it recalls days of fond memories…it even provides a basis for analogies. Let us all celebrate. One day I hope many fans here will appreciate Roller Derby for the honest, true and skilled sport that it is.

  92. Sol,

    but the question is “does that reflect emotinal security and spiritual maturity?”
    people do it all the time, but ‘should’ they?
    especially christians? or Pastor/Elder/Ministers?
    it seems to be more about manipulation and self agrandisment than ministry and humility.

    but i digress.
    -mike

  93. Jeff

    “Warriors…”

  94. Sol,

    … or does it just reflect the SAME problem that most of us believe to be the problem with CC and churches like it who use a Moses Model of leadership that exalts One Annointed Man above the Body of Christ?
    Moses wasn’t allowed accross the Jordan due to misrepresenting God before the people as a petty, fed up, petulant, insecure ‘god’. And what we have seen as results of the MM in the CC system and other churches is the same, but the SP becomes the ‘god’ while pretending to be Moses. Either way, the MM misrepresents God and creates ‘gods’ among men in the church who are unaccounatble, uncorrectable, and egotistical bast***s who help themselves to the ‘meat’ of the flock.
    Jesus was meant to be the Head of the church and the Leader of the Flock and the Pattern of living the Christian Life in the Christ forming power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

    Follow Jesus of go back across to Egypt and the Wilderness of Sin, but get the Hell out of the way!!
    -mike

  95. I respected Michael for the stand he took the other day in standing up for Alex and standing against the silence of the CC leadership.

    While I did not read much, and missed all the fun that ensued, it was my impression that the backlash against Michael was initially from a CC pastor who is known for his silence and inaction, defense of Chuck Smith and the CC brand. That was the root that I saw, not Alex’s in-your-face ways. Alex may have done stuff that riled them up after I quit looking, but the disturbance was already there from AV towards PhxP.

    As long as PhxP is protective of the CC pastors, then peace rules. I may only understand in part of what Michael is trying to do, and I may not fully understand the context in which he decided to go this route. Who knows, but that I might not have tried the same path. But as with most decisions, it’s fraught with good outcomes as well as unintended consequences.

  96. i meant to say ‘or go back accross…’

  97. Let me get this straight. Chuck Smith started this Moses Model at Calvary Chapel and put himself at the top as the president of the CCOF which was supposed to be the enforcement arm. So when he teaches the Matt 18 process from the Bible, he must be the final arbitrator. Chuck Smith himself has proven that he only cherry picks cases he wants to be involved with. When he is taken to court he plays this game that he has nothing to do with the 100% independent Calvary Chapels. After he is cleared in the lawsuit, he goes and exercises his power he claimed to not have and grants the same power he used to have but never used appropriately to his handpicked successors which are now bigger Moses Model leaders than they were before with authority over the less Moses Model leaders and creates a CCA counsil that is supposedly nothing at all like a denomination. Do I have this right?

  98. That’s cause Chuck is not a true shepard as he has allowed the hurt to get justice. Read the book of Amos, some good stuff about how God loves Justice and hates when it is not given especially to the poor.

  99. Mic

    Or it could be the the Dusty Rhodes/Mid Night Rider thing as Michael could come back under a mask with a new blog

  100. Mic. Thanks for the sanity check. I thought I was delusional for a second there.

  101. Mic,

    Don’y know Michael’s heart but his shutting down of Phoenix and starting back up over and over gain sounds like an attention grab

  102. DING …DING….DING….And the prize goes to Andrew!

    Yes, is the answer. AND what’s even more interesting is that the totally independent Calvary Chapels have to submit to the authorities that Chuck just put over them.

    Did anyone ask the CC pastors if they wanted someone over them? Did anyone ask if the one’s chosen were people they could submit to? Did the CC pastors just give up their independence?

  103. grateful,

    the fact that michael was duped into ‘protecting’ the CC pastors, the ‘good guys’ and that they were able to manipulate him to shutting down the blog rather than be confronted with theri own duplicity and ‘complicity’ in regards to what alex was saying says alot about not just how far PP blog got off kilter from the ‘original seed’ but also about michael and his motivations for continuing once he knew it was off.
    the desire to get as well as keep an audience can pervert and corrupt even the most ‘holy and righteous’ of intentions. michael does indeed have a choice to make.

    what kind of a PP he wants to have if he chooses to return.
    what kind of michael does he want to be whether he returns to PP or not.

    only he can suss that out and i imagine those are some questions he is already thinking and praying over this week. i for one am praying for and with him.
    -mike

  104. Grateful, this just gets worse the more I understand what is going on.

  105. andrew,
    “Grateful, this just gets worse the more I understand what is going on.”

    why do you think the ‘good guy’ CC pastors and participants on the PP were so adamant about getting alex banned, trashing him after he couldn’t respond anymore, and moving michael to shut the blog down rather than have their comments and actual names posted on CCA?
    some people are sooo insecure, they can only allow what they want to be allowed, even if it’s not under their control they will ‘force’ the control till they either get their way or shut it all down. truth sux, doesn’t it?
    Run For Your Lives!!
    -mike

  106. alex,
    call me mad or off base if you want, and it’s not because of any ‘axe’ i have to grind with michael or him banning me, but…

    i think michael may have seen that several CC pastors that were posting on the PP were calvinist or reformed theology leaning, and being the Packer, Sproul and Calvin leaning person HE is, he saw it as an opportunity to either commiserate with or influence these men as they were in no doubt influencing and attempting to move CC as a whole toward the ‘detent’ of allowing Calvinist Pastors and even Calvinist leaning CCs legitimacy within the Movement.
    just one thought, but he may have been ‘protective’ of these men to protect his dream of a CC if not changed by, at least tolerant of Calvinism within the system. a ‘foothold’ of sorts in a church who’s foundation and theology is decidedly not calvinist and even on occasion, GB aside and from CS’s own mouth, militantly ‘anti-calvinist’.
    But alas, when push came to shove, they turned on michael over alex and the issues of accounatbility within the system. now he was in between the hard place he had created for himself. wanting to ‘protect’ and keep these men in fellowship which they were threatening to cutt off or make the hard stand with alex and let them go, his dream of ‘calvinizing’ even a little bit of the CC system lost with them…

    alas, he chose the former. in retrospect and from all i have read and experienced with michael the PP over the years that I too have ‘lurked’ and participated, and i know you have disagreed with me on this before alex so i respect your opinion, he did unwittingly and unintentionally maybe… ‘throw you under the bus’ by protecting them and allowing the others to bash you after you were banned.

    he thinks he found a way to support both you and them. but the end result is they protected them at your expense. in the end, you and the truth were expendable. i can understandif you disagree, but that’s the harsh truth i see.

    -mike

  107. MiC, I did not participate much on PhxP so I am not sure what happened. I am however quite reformed in my understanding of theology which is another beef I have with CS.

  108. andrew,
    you can be reformed/calvinist if you want to. but CC is not.
    it would be like ‘infiltrating’ the Church of Christ and trying to get a Worship Team together with drums, guitars and Charismatic Praise Dancers.
    or trying to do the Catholic Mass in a CCSP’s conference (oh, did JC get in trouble for that!!) and ridiculing everone not treating it as if it were the same as a ‘rememberance’.

    theology matters. CC has chosen their theology, so have you. so have I. we all deserve respect accordingly. reformed is your thing and it’s not CS’s or CC’s, find a church you agree with instead of trying to change CC. shouldn’t be that difficult of a issue to solve.
    -mike

  109. mic said;

    “andrew,
    you can be reformed/calvinist if you want to. but CC is not.
    it would be like ‘infiltrating’ the Church of Christ and trying to get a Worship Team together with drums, guitars and Charismatic Praise Dancers.
    or trying to do the Catholic Mass in a CCSP’s conference (oh, did JC get in trouble for that!!) and ridiculing everone not treating it as if it were the same as a ‘rememberance’.

    theology matters. CC has chosen their theology, so have you. so have I. we all deserve respect accordingly. reformed is your thing and it’s not CS’s or CC’s, find a church you agree with instead of trying to change CC. shouldn’t be that difficult of a issue to solve.
    -mike”

    agreed, that’s why I left instead of trying to start a revolution, that’s why I left Regency as well as I didn’t agree with them letting Kim Clement come to speak and be their Prophet

  110. Sol,

    Kim Clement? That charlatan is still around? wow, maybe we ARE in the Tribulation…

  111. I have been participating on this blog for 2 yrs.
    Before that, I was lurking and participating on the PP for 4 years after finding out it was for those hurt in CC’s.
    But there came a point where you knew you just could not say anything about CC without one of the Pastors challenging you.
    I found some of the men lacked respect for women, unless you were in the inner circle.
    Mostly, I got the feeling I was interfering in a mens club, although some of the women were deeply respected and rightly so…real women of God..prayer warriors.

    What bothered me was that there was definitely a fine line there.
    I think the host provided an opportunity for lasting friendships there and I am sure everyone misses that. It as like a 24hr club, and people could come on there any time of day. There were some very gracious people there.

  112. Solomon,

    So in “Reformed” you adhere to amillenialism and no return of Christ on earth?

  113. ….sorry…I have to go…do not want to start theology here… :)
    If you do answer will be back later

  114. Someone wrote “MPD – I have read all your posts here and find it interesting how you mis-direct and twist words in a very immature way. ”

    Not sure if that was a typo or not, but it got me the best laugh I’ve had in days. Thanks!

  115. i can’t claim it myself, but i’m sure it was intentional… and a laugh riot, i agree
    -mike

  116. Someone wrote “the fact that michael was duped into ‘protecting’ the CC pastors, the ‘good guys’ and that they were able to manipulate him to shutting down the blog rather than be confronted with theri own duplicity and ‘complicity’ in regards to what alex was saying says alot about not just how far PP blog got off kilter from the ‘original seed’ but also about michael and his motivations for continuing once he knew it was off.”

    I think that was part of it. The analysis that Michael drew near to the CC powers was also explained by someone else as his desire to encourage Reformed friendly CC pastors makes some sense to me as well. Wasn’t Michael one of the CC pastors at one point who were thrown out for their Reformed leanings? If I remember wrong, someone correct me since this is going way back…

  117. Hannah, I am glad that you are here. You and Grateful bring peace that is often needed.

  118. @ 118,

    Thanks!

  119. I’m not a big rules guy when it comes to blogs, Churches, yes…blogs are an open forum to exercise 1st Amendment Rights etc.

    However, lay of Michael’s kid. That’s a situation that offends him. I personally think it’s admirable that he is being a father to what he considers his son (and his son I’m sure feels the same way). I got mocked all the time a PhxP, called names etc. I think it’s fair game to call him a drama queen if you want, no problem or poke at other stuff…but not the kid situation.

    When it’s brought to my attention, I’ll simply delete it so please save me the trouble. Thanks and happy blogging.

  120. The one thing that stands out when you watch PhxP for awhile, it’s that relationships matter. In the context of relationship one can overlook so much, as well as forgive more easily, and consider an idea that would normally be forboden.

    Who was it that I read who brought up the article in Christianity Today where some pastor in Colorado asked a mayor, I think, what pastors could do to help the community? The Mayor said they should teach their people to be good neighbors. The pastor then concluded that Jesus is brilliant!

    In light of this thought, I’m reminded of how much more gets accomplished in relationships that are trying their best to get along. Though this still has pit falls, as we’ve seen, the alternative to just fight it out seems less effective; though neither can too much compromise and praises be given either. What a tight rope!

    I guess I admire Michael’s attempt, but I have an impression that it’s a chess game between him and some CC pastors. It’s as if they’re both their under the guise of relationship and sharpening each other’s thinking, when it may actually be more like each trying to evangelize or neutralize the other.

    Can a CC pastor be won over one at a time? I think so, I think some have claimed this happened to them, though they left CC. But the most vocal CC pastors do not seem to budge, only complain bitterly when Alex makes a solid point, or statement of fact that affects them negatively. They complain about the delivery and shift the focus away from the point … so it seems.

  121. Andrew said, “Let me get this straight. Chuck Smith started this Moses Model at Calvary Chapel and put himself at the top as the president of the CCOF which was supposed to be the enforcement arm. So when he teaches the Matt 18 process from the Bible, he must be the final arbitrator. Chuck Smith himself has proven that he only cherry picks cases he wants to be involved with. When he is taken to court he plays this game that he has nothing to do with the 100% independent Calvary Chapels. After he is cleared in the lawsuit, he goes and exercises his power he claimed to not have and grants the same power he used to have but never used appropriately to his handpicked successors which are now bigger Moses Model leaders than they were before with authority over the less Moses Model leaders and creates a CCA counsil that is supposedly nothing at all like a denomination. Do I have this right?”

    YOU NAILED IT!

  122. alex,
    i got a visitor to my blog this afternoon regarding the Fight Club article

  123. Not Alone said, “Gene Schneider said on FaceBook ” You guys need to come over and join me at Alex’s site. I have been messing with them for 2 days – driving them crazy.”
    Monday at 6:23pm · Like · 3″

    Sorry to read that.

    My goal at PP was never to mess with Michael or drive him crazy or chase away people. It was to push the CC message and to address problems with treating “Truth” as Relative/Subjective when it comes to the Qualifications and Church Discipline and Church Authority etc.

    It may have driven some folks crazy at times, but that wasn’t my goal. It was a byproduct at times. But, I rarely did stuff just to mess with some of the folks over there (though I did press a button or two like everyone else).

  124. MiC, good article.

    I saw Steve Wright’s comments. Ya, he’ll give you another side of it alright and privately of course.

  125. Another of my goals over there was to show the so-called “good” CC pastors who at one time questioned “spiritual abuse” and other times said that stuff wasn’t really quantifiable and that CC could only respond to “currently actionable” stuff like fresh crimes…

    …that when someone offends you and “hurts” you through words…it is a real hurt…and you’d want some justice and accountability.

    The CC guys who publicly wouldn’t criticize either Chuck Smith or Bob Grenier, found it within themselves to criticize me very strongly…some calling “me” “TheAbuser”…but not a guy who actually beat children, beat the Sheep and is accused of child molestation.

  126. MiC, a response to your article…I think it’s a good ideal and I think it’s very applicable to a Blog who’s goal is fellowship and healing.

    I state very clearly in my stuff that I’m not that guy. This blog’s goal is justice and accountability and keeping the flow of information going to try and put a dent in the corruption and abuses (and complicit and sometimes participatory Leadership) in Calvary Chapel.

  127. MiC, part of the PP problem I think is that Michael tried to do both…and the two mix like Nitro and Glycerin…or Gasoline and a Match.

  128. Grateful,

    You have mail.

    Well stated perspective at 121.

  129. Grateful said, ” guess I admire Michael’s attempt, but I have an impression that it’s a chess game between him and some CC pastors. It’s as if they’re both their under the guise of relationship and sharpening each other’s thinking, when it may actually be more like each trying to evangelize or neutralize the other.

    Can a CC pastor be won over one at a time? I think so, I think some have claimed this happened to them, though they left CC. But the most vocal CC pastors do not seem to budge, only complain bitterly when Alex makes a solid point, or statement of fact that affects them negatively. They complain about the delivery and shift the focus away from the point … so it seems.”

    I think you are correct here in your assessment. I agree with Raymond, well stated.

  130. To those visiting the site from PP. I would like to say that I do not come here because I want to bash. I will call it as I see/experienced it. Unlike many here, I see reform as a man made product that has no place in true spiritual repentance and a heartfelt desire to turn. CC will drift into the morass that all other denominations have gone. They will remember the glory days and not understand why the spiritual activity that once (may) have existed is no longer. The hierarchy will be satisfied with their positions and prestiege while concluding that the sheep just don’t get it.

    My greater concern is for those who I know, love and have personal relationship with who will find themselves in the vortex of ubiquitous vagueness as to what real spiritual growth is. I, for one, refuse to stand by and allow a reoccurrence of my personal experiences be exercised upon those whom I care for. This site informs me like no other. I have no personal relationship with Alex. We may run across each other and hate one another’s guts. I am intelligent and discerning enough to separate the emotion from the facts. I was attempting to do that at PP. Then, down goes the site.

  131. I think if the “good” CC pastors would make a public statement that Chuck Smith is wrong for not dealing with guys like Bob Grenier and that Chuck is wrong for lying…and basically just publicly acknowledging some basic facts…it would go a long way in healing for some of us…if that is truly their goal.

    My concern is that their goal is “healing” in the context of they don’t affirm there is any real injustice towards us, while patting us on the back and telling us to move on.

    I never was able to get that point through to them.

    It’s like having a member of the Gang that killed your brother tell you everything will be Ok and that he’s not like the other Gang Leaders in his Group and that stuff happens and to get over it….all while making statements about how much ‘integrity’ the Main Gang Leader has and how “good” the Gang is net/net.

  132. Alex – “make is public statement against Chuck?

    The fear of man lays a snare,

    Either God is a liar or the ensnared will not be untangled

  133. Alex said

    It’s like having a member of the Gang that killed your brother tell you everything will be Ok and that he’s not like the other Gang Leaders in his Group and that stuff happens and to get over it….all while making statements about how much ‘integrity’ the Main Gang Leader has and how “good” the Gang is net/net.

    That anology is rich…. lol.

    You made a statement on another thread about preparing a letter to address the leadership about your situation since that’s how it is going to be done. So does that mean I address the Nor Eastern section about Loyd and Karen Pulley and their behavior towards me. Since they are former in laws it will go no where. Or address Florida for B&D Coy, Jerry Sanders etc. etc. for their role in all this. Or The region for CCGS and the issue of K Pulley and slandering me with Dale G. Is tyhere anyone out there who thinks that anyhting would be done? Who are we trying to fool?

  134. Being a SP has never equated with characteristics such as integrity, honesty, commitment to live the Word, etc. Not to say it does not happeen..I bear witness to it In some SP’s, but in Calvary it increasingly now seems that man ordains, but God alone annoints and calls.

  135. alex,
    i think there was aquestion for those more knowledgeable from someone earlier asking if michael was a CC pastor who had been kicked due to the calvinism?

    i thought his story was that he wanted to be, but wasn’t ‘allowed’ to be a CC pastor because of his Calvinism/Reformed Theology…

    any clarification?

  136. @118
    Thanks! We don’t hear enough from you. You are the voice of reason.

  137. Jeff says,

    “but in Calvary it increasingly now seems that man ordains, but God alone annoints and calls.”

    I’ve made that same statement to those I know. The only part I disagree with is the “it now seems”. Looking back, it has been happening for quite some time.

    To give you an idea. I was being discipled by Loyd in his office in West Covina. This is going back to ’84. Since I was soon to become his bro-in-law and living in his home for a couple of months, I made a joke about him. That was the first time I herd the “don’t touch God’s annointed” statement.

  138. I’m going to address this as it has come up repeatedly for some reason.

    I did not discover Reformed theology until long after I was booted from CC.
    As long time readers of my blog know, I was removed from CC after confronting my senior pastor and leadership about adultery and substance abuse that was occurring and that eventually led to his removal…five years after I got the left foot of fellowship.

    It was that experience and it’s aftermath that led to the founding of the Phoenix Preacher many years later as I saw the same patterns repeated in other churches and with the same effect on other peoples lives as it had on mine.

    Most of my CC friends that were involved in the PhxP are about as far from Reformed as most of you are.
    When people do ask me for materials on Calvinism I’m glad to provide them, but I haven’t seen any Reformed Reformation in CC, nor do I see it happening in the future.

  139. michael,
    thanks for setting the record straight. were you an actual CC pastor? and if so for how long?

    mike

  140. Michael,

    Welcome. Your blog really helped me at a time when I thought I was losing it.
    I am very thankful there was an outlet for me to express myself.

    I have been considering getting your book for my cat loving, cat rescuing unsaved friend.
    If you are still there, can you tell me if the focus is mostly on cats?
    And if so would you recommend it for the unsavd as a winess, or mostly for believers.
    Thanks!

  141. Aww, I understand you a bit better now, Michael. Thanks for that clarification.

    No wonder you understood my situation. Same song different day.

    RAY: you got mail

  142. Grateful

    You got mail

  143. Hannah,

    If you shoot me an email I’ll be glad to send you a pdf or Kindle copy for free.
    phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
    I’m out, folks, this is your place.
    Just wanted to clear that one thing up.

  144. Great blessings to you Michael. You always treated me with compassion, dignity and respect, which was and is more than I deserved…from the very first call when you found me.

  145. Michael

    Wish we could have had some dialogue. You seem to be a class act.

  146. Sheck,

    Blessings to you as well…that was a long time ago for both of us.
    Thank you for the kind words…you were a great encouragement to me.

    Ok…now I’m really out. :-)

  147. Michael,

    Too paranoid to e-mail.

  148. OK…please don’t anyone respond to that!

  149. Michael,

    But thank you. I would purchase the book! Does it benefit you if I get it on Amazon?

  150. The insights from this site has been very helpfull to me ,I have had questions for the last five years since leaving CC and they have been mostly answered.What I see is a good ole boy network ,at best.it is a borderline bible cult.If I had seen this in the 80s I would have left it back then………..It has no bylaws or government which is quite dangerous and does lead to abuse .Its going to really take a earth shaking event to bring change.We can pray for them and pray hard…….Alex you are being prayed for by my little church that fellowship in. Bless you

  151. I don’t post a whole lot and Alex, though knows me in real life, doesn’t know where I stand on every little thing. I’m glad to see that Alex is being prayed for and no doubt he needs it. I would challenge every person who considers Alex an enemy to pray for him. I don’t think this is the kind of “God, smite Alex” type prayer that is needed here. I think God can correct Alex and needs to at times, just as much as he needs to correct others pastors and churches. (The thing that keeps me going is knowing that every church I’ve been to has problems, and God will deal with each person, even those pastors, on judgement day).

    Those here who may claim that I’m sympathetic need to know that sometimes Alex annoys me online. He’s tenacious like a bulldog I once knew that would never give up. It can be a great trait in the right circumstances, but also terrible in the wrong.

    Oh and for those who don’t know Michael 7 years ago wrote some great fiery pieces against CC. In fact, there were regular (expletives) in his writings.

  152. Nice article MiC. It’s good to see the concept in a nutshell. It helps me to understand the pressure blog owners can be put under. Like a frog in a slow boil pot.

  153. thanks for the compliment Not Alone. I appreciate it.
    -mike

  154. MLD – Crystal Clear.
    DING …DING….DING….And the prize goes to MLD.
    YOU NAILED IT!

  155. FMD,
    i didn’t really. i asked him if he was ever an actual CC pastor and for how long. he never answered (as usual). i asked him on the PP one or two times, but never got an answer. also would be interested how long he was a CC before getting the boot? prob won’t answer that either. but hey, he doesn’t have to and it’s not really the point of alex’s article or blog to focus on michael (or fawn over him for that matter) I was just interested for a better understanding and clarity to his history and involvement with CC’s in general.
    -mike
    ps. did you like my article o ‘christian fight clubs’? you would make a great brad pitt!

  156. MLD,

    My #112 was before he came on. I didn’t ever say anything about negative Michael, just some of the Pastors there. I actually gave the blog praise for the people there and friendships there.
    So don’t say “everyone” if thats not the case.

    MLD, Your terminology is vulgar and speaks volumes about the heart behind the man.
    I’m outta here.

  157. #159 ” Someone buy the lady a book”

    MLD
    You are disrespectful beyond belief. Not even going to entertain a discussion with you.

  158. sorry Gene, that should have been FML (follower of Martin Luther) :)

  159. Nah, we’re not buying any of this entertaining little blog skit you’ve been putting on here for the last few days. Needed a bit more planning and orchestration which is not your strong suit, don’t you think. I’m not about to tell you what gave it away…

    Pracetice makes perfect. Lol ;-).

  160. Mic @ 109 wrote:
    you can be reformed/calvinist if you want to. but CC is not.
    it would be like ‘infiltrating’ the Church of Christ and trying to get a Worship Team together with drums, guitars and Charismatic Praise Dancers.
    or trying to do the Catholic Mass in a CCSP’s conference (oh, did JC get in trouble for that!!) and ridiculing everone not treating it as if it were the same as a ‘rememberance’.

    theology matters. CC has chosen their theology, so have you. so have I. we all deserve respect accordingly. reformed is your thing and it’s not CS’s or CC’s, find a church you agree with instead of trying to change CC. shouldn’t be that difficult of a issue to solve.
    …..
    Actually its not so easy to solve. I have been listening to Joe Focht now for many years and with the way he quotes Charles Spurgeon, I would almost be amiss to not call Joe reformed.

  161. Gene
    since leaving CC, i no longer am a pre-, post-, mid- or any kind or color of tribber. i no longer subscribe to the 7yr trib ‘period’ at all. as to Amill, Premill, Postmill… i guess you could call me confused and just simply waiting for my Savior. I no longer have to figure out what God is going to do or cramm it down anyone’s gullet. didn’t jesus say something in acts 1:7-8 in answer to the first ‘date setters’? i came to the conclusion that it would be better for me to just start ‘being a witness’ empowered by the Spirit, trying to get people to ‘repent and believe the Gospel’ before He returns. that’s what i try to do.
    as for the Millinium in the first place… could it be possible that Revelation (filled with symbolism and types) is not ‘really’ saying a ‘literal’ 1000yrs? Again, not for me to figure out, just to be a witness of Jesus before His return, whenever that may be.
    -mike

  162. Sorry everyone. I’m not going to allow MLD to continue attacking everyone. Especially Hannah. He’s like a monkey, cute while young but constantly flinging poo once old. Man has his attempt gotten old.

  163. mark,
    thanks for the ‘support’ and the compassion for those who have been hurt and abused even ‘after’ they were hurt and abused. (not very christlike, i know. forgive me)
    -mike

  164. Re: MIC @ 104 (just saw this post)

    ” … the desire to get as well as keep an audience can pervert and corrupt even the most ‘holy and righteous’ of intentions. …”

    I agree. I find the blog world an very interesting study of how relationships work. In this context the truth is revealed at a much more rapid pace than it does in normal person to person contact. When we have to meet with people physically, it naturally limits our interaction and naturally builds in history and politeness. In other words, the relationship builds and has more consequences if there is either misbehavior or correction given.

    After watching blogs, I examined my real world relationships. My conclusion is that God knew what He was doing when he made it so we’d have to relate to one another and that we are commanded to love one another. The physical aspect and the pacing is incredibly important.

    I say all this to say that it looks much more difficult to replicate this on a blog, since one is also forced to deal with the truth much faster, with less relationship in place. Much more quickly we are accountable to God for our response, or our silence.

    I just realized that you wrote an article about this and I should have read it before spouting off my thoughts.

    Yes, prayer for Michael … may God guide him.

  165. grateful

    thanks for the response and the feedback. non-personal and non-relational ‘relationships’ CAN be more difficult, but i’m convinced they don’t ‘have to be’ rude or insensitive. with the self control (which is a fruit of the Spirit as well) we can choose how we respond and God would rather we respond even to those we perceive to be enemies with civility and politeness (even if just to tick them off) … sorry, just kidding.
    -mike

  166. Just curious, who made George Bryson the spokesman on Calvary Chapel theology? George Bryson wrote:
    ” If a Calvary Chapel pastor has taken a turn down the Reformed road, Chuck is also serious in asking them to voluntarily disassociate with Calvary. Reformed associations would only be inviting division and controversy if they were to allow. Skip Heitzig or Joe Focht to pastor in something like an Acts 29 church. So they don’t!”
    I have been listening to Joe Focht for a long time and he has quoted Charles Spurgeon many times. Joe in my estimation has taught the doctrines of grace fairly consistent with the reformers. Joe has taught about the 5 solos of the reformation as if he agreed with them. Hmmm, just wondering who made George Bryson the spokesman?

  167. andrew

    are you aware that CS himself came down hard on Calvinist CC pastors at the 2011 SP’s conference? your ‘fight’ is not just with GB, but with CS and true CC theology. you may want to choose a fellowship of churches you agree with or stay with Joe (whether he is CC or eventually leaves the CC Fold after CS passes. (i have heard many are just waiting out of deference to Chuck) actually, no one made GB the spokesperson, but CS who founded CC and the theology materials at CCBC and the underlying theology that formed CS’s views are really the issue. not GB. kind of a red herring i think.
    GB is one of the ‘original’ guys going way back and i’m sure if he were ‘waging a war’ that was in conflict with what CS or CC as a whole didn’t agree with or thought to be against the interests of the ‘Movement’ they would put a pretty abrupt end to it, don’t you think?

    the real issue is not ‘why is GB making himself the spokesman’ but what is the foundational theology of CC and CS and why so many are trying to change it or argue against GB when he defends it?
    food for thought from a former but still interested CC’ite
    -mike

  168. andrew
    GB sees himself as a defender of the faith, not necessarily a spokesman. it might be helpful to read some of his articles ‘directly’ due to ‘some poeple’s’ mischaracterizations of him on their blogs. i think that even if you don’t agree with him, you will find he is much better thought out and ‘rational’ than the PP gives him credit for (could it be that michael’s opinion is not altogether ‘objective’ when it comes to GB?)
    even so, i emailed with him once and found him to no be the raving loony that many make him out to be. i hope you will give him an honest chance too by going to his website directly and reading what he has actually written.
    -mike

  169. for now, i have to take my aging mother to the dr’s.
    toodles!
    -mike

  170. MiC, I don’t agree with you at all. It almost appears that Calvary Chapel will do whatever or say whatever to get the most market share. I am aware of the comments Chuck made at the CCSP in 2011 but didn’t Chuck just give his powers away to his handpicked successors of which Joe Focht is one of them? Also, I am not waging a war of theology against CC but rather pointing out a huge inconsistency they seem to have. I am actually not sure what the foundation of CC is with these conflicting ideas. I was sold that the Bible was the foundation of CC but maybe I am wrong.

  171. mic said:

    “Sol,

    Kim Clement? That charlatan is still around? wow, maybe we ARE in the Tribulation…”

    Yup! at Regency Christian Center in Whittier, CA. he is a big deal there. Admittedly I used to follow him until God woke me up which lead me to be a watchman concerning our faith.

  172. MiC, I agree that GB does seem like a nice man but he seems to have no consistency.

  173. Hannah,

    I always like reading your posts. I am a pre wrath rapture guy and I do believe in a literal thousand year reign on earth. I firmly believe the church will go through the persecution of the anti christ and that the last days harlot religion will consist of False Christianity and Catholisicm along with sprinklings of everything else. I truly believe the institutional church will end up persecuting true believers who refuse to walk lock step with the New World Order agenda. FEMA is already using Pastors in America to report dissidents in their congregations. Many of these Pastors have become Judas Goats and our leading the sheep to the slaughter, the blind leades leading the blind into a ditch. Many of the celebrity pastors of this day, Rick Warren, Greg Laurie, Billy Graham are ecumenical to the bone and have connections with secret society’s or not so secret.

  174. Hannah,

    I am not reformed. I refuse to give too much praise to men like John Calvin and Martin Luther. There was remant of brethren long before the reformation that refused to bow down to the murderous Catholic Church such as the Lawlers, Albegenses and Waldenses but history focuses more on the reformation and that’s why most Christians these days identify themselves as Protestants, I don’t I just indentify myself as a Saint as a member of the Bride of Chirst. I’m not into man worship that’s why I don’t have a dog in this game and I can see the forest from the trees and I am not bewithced by men like Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Rick Warren, The POPE or any other celebrity Pastor.

  175. I’ve waited until the dust settled a little bit here to opo in. I was only a small contributor at the Phoenix Preacher but I did value the blog very much. I am sad to see what has come of it, at least for now.

    I wanted to express that I care for Alex and his brothers and everything they had to go through and also the abuses that many of you here have experienced. I do support Alex’s cause in regards to actions needing to be taken against his step-father and also the need for some reforms within the Calvary Chapel system. I do not agree with all of Alex’s methodologies and I think that Alex brings some of the scorn upon himself due to his actions. At the same time, I do think there have been times where Alex has been treated wrongly and unfairly on the PhxP.

    I do pray that for those of you who have been abused that as time goes on you are able to find some measure of peace and healing. At the same time, I do pray that justice comes where it is due.

    I would also hope that moving forward, whether here or on some revised version of the PhxP that may or may not come about, that we would be able to treat each other as Christian brothers and sisters. Not that we can’t have disagreements, even strong ones. But in discussing those disagreements, that we would treat each other with care and respect and remember that other person who we are talking to or about is a child created and loved by God. Even if the ends we are trying to achieve are just and right, I wonder how God views us when our means are less than honorable. Peace and God bless.

  176. Two other quick notes.

    First, the word should be “pop”, not “opo”, in the first sentence of my previous post.

    Second, as per the current discussion touching on Joe Focht, the man does not identify as a Calvinist, although he certainly seems to have some leanings that way. Joe is also very much a Chuck Smith disciple and is one of the hand picked leaders in the new structure. I would think he would be one of the last ones looking to bolt from CC or to cause a revolt from within.

  177. Kevin,

    I agree with you that Joe Focht is very much a Chuck Smith disciple. He would even say that his church in Philadelphia is an exact replica of costa mesa. This just adds to more confusion for me with all of Joe’s quotations from Charles Spurgeon. I agree he would not call himself a Calvinist but I don’t think he identifies himself as an Arminean either. But he pretty much stresses the 5 solos of the reformation with the Bible having authority more than any pastors I have heard. I doubt Joe is one to put Chuck’s distinctives before the Bible.

  178. New article up.

  179. andrew
    i guess there’s no convincing someone who doesn’t want to be convinced. but if you are ‘curious’ as you said, and i believe you are, look up the doctrine of the four square/assembly of God in reference to ‘free will’ vs ‘divine election’ and the 5points.

    many who do not hold to calvinist or reformed theology find spurgeon, sproul, piper, packer and a whole host from that camp very helpful and edifying when not speaking to the whole ‘unconditional election’, ‘limited atonement’ and ‘irresistable grace’ mantra of Sovereignty as defined by Calvin and company. I myself read and enjoy alot further than many would expect that i do. the issue with calvinism/reformed theology is primarily the focus of theistic determinism and double predestination as the only logical and consistent consequesnce of ‘monergysm’

    as for the 5 solas, these are not really what people mean by calvinism vs arminianism because both viewpoints would hold to these and come out of the same ‘reformation’ era. not necessarily a sign of calvinism at all.

    the other thing is the use of the term ‘arminian’ for anyone who is not Calvinist. some study may provide help with the understanding that not ‘all’ who reject Calvinism/Augustinianism in fact are Arminians. and i don’t find the whole lumping of those who would reject Calvinism into the same bag as helpful or accurate. hope this helps, brother.
    -mike

  180. I don’t have a problem with pre trib teachings,my problem lies with the way bible teachers ,pastors and off the wall prophecy experts abuse and stretch the text to fit their own warped views.Yes I do believe we are close to the time of the end.Now first an formost pre-trib should draw us closer to Jesus Christ and live like rightous men and women knowing that we can be called home at any moment.When…….?

  181. Blessed by God, thanks for the prayers you spoke of above. Much appreciated.

  182. DA Armstrong, thanks for your input.

  183. MiC, I was not talking about Calvinism but rather being reformed. To me they are not always synonymous they way you interpret it. I put Luther in the camp of being reformed but he was no Calvinist. This is point one.

    Point 2 is when pastors quote Spurgeon (a reformed Baptist) in the context of their theology, you begin to see the pastors theology.

  184. andrew
    last time and i will go ahead and drop it.
    your question was about GB and his speaking out about Calvinism. he doesn’t speak out about Reformed theology in general, but Calvinism. maybe you don’t have an issue with GB or CS after all if you beef is only about ‘reformed’ in general but not about Calvinsim. but i guess only you really know what you meant. good exchanging ideas with you brother.
    -mike

  185. try reading his articles directly and not thru the filter of other people’s scorn and disagreement. helps alot, dude
    -mike

  186. MiC, Matter of fact, I did get his article directly from his website and it wasn’t screened by any filter. I can count on one hand how many times I have gone to PhxPr. It was that little.

    My quote came directly from Georges article on a “Reformed free Calvary chapel”. Yes, George is talking about Calvinistic pastors that apparently GB and CS are militant against but my experience listening to Joe Focht is that he is not militantly against them at all and in fact at times leans in that direction with his quotations from Spurgeon. Also when I see someone that writes an article called “Reformed free”, to me it means all of those in the reformed era and not just Calvinists.

  187. Which leads me to the point of the 5 solos of the reformation and the bible as having authority.

  188. And Joe Focht has taught the “reformed” understanding of the doctrines of grace as outlined by GB more than once which according to GB should disqualify him as a CC pastor. This is all I am saying.

  189. then he’s Calvinist and misdefining it just as ‘reformed’. not all reformed are calvinists (ie the 5points, different from the 5 solas by the way, ie ‘doctrines of grace’) why did you try to say it was about ‘reformed’ in general then? i don’t get the rabbit trail, brother.

    and again, your problem is not with ‘reformed’ genrally, but specifically Calvinist Reformed. and GB is very clear what he is referring to… he’s not referring to reformed in general, and i think you know that, shouldn’t be much confusion or vagueness.

    you have a prob with GB because GB has a prob with Calvinsm, and GB has a prob with Calvinsim because foundational CC theology, CS the one who founded the theology and almost all official CC materials and the theology at the CCBC has a prob with Calvinism.

    either deal with it or find a church you agree with, but it’s pretty obvious you are leaning toward trying to minimize or soften CC’s stand and ridicule people (like CS or GB) who happen to defend it. CS himself said at the CCSP conference what honest men of concience should do if they are pastoring CCs and are Calvinist. so maybe both Joe can have the integrity to give up the Dove or Calvinsm, and maybe you can have the resoect for a non-calvinist CC to just find a church you can agree with. i couldn’t stay for other reasons both personal and theological, but rather than try to change their theology and start a ‘revolution from within’ I chose to find a fellowship i could agree with.

    so you have a prob with GB and his stance on Calvinsim… you have a ‘beef’ as you said with CS for the same reason… why stay? is it that important for you to be ‘right’ and make them ‘right’ too? not trying to down you, but consider what the implications are..
    -mike

  190. MiC, who said I have stayed with CC? Infact I have been abused land thrown out. Next with your statement about CS founding Calvary Chapel theology is really hard to swallow. If you press CS about the Calvary Chapel movement he will tell you its not his movement but God’s. If its God’s movement it is also God’s theology. The thing CC pastors have in common is the verse by verse teaching and not their stance against Calvinism. And why do you assume I am a Calvanist?

  191. andrew
    “And why do you assume I am a Calvanist?”

    i’m sorry brother. this is getting a bit too much for me to handle. I ‘assumed’ because you had orig asked a quest reg GB and his ‘beef’ with reformed/calvinism in CC pastors. then you gave example of joe focht teaching the ‘doctrines of grace’ much as GB outlines them as Calvinist and seemed to be supporting and expressing support of Joe for doing so. alos along the conversation, you seemed to me to be saying CS and GB shouldn’t be taking such a hard stance against Calvinism… ergo, i assumed you were either Calvinist, or ‘leaning’ towards the Doctrines of Grace yourself.
    If I have assumed too much, please accept my apology… it might be best if I just ask directly. Are you infact Calvinist? Doesn’t matter to me, you don’t even have to tell me. You don’t answer to me (or apparantly CC anymore, sorry for however they mistreated you. we’ve all been there and it ain’t fun) but you’ve asked me for clarification, seems quid pro quo would be in order. (haven’t worked so hard in a discussion since MLD left) :)
    And at that, I say good night
    -mike.

  192. andrew
    “MiC, I did not participate much on PhxP so I am not sure what happened. I am however quite reformed in my understanding of theology which is another beef I have with CS.”

    you said this earlier in the conversation and i guess i remembered it…

  193. and remember… spurgeon was not ‘just’ and ‘reformed’ baptist, but a calvinist defender…

    you may now see why i assumed you were a calvinist or at least ‘leaning’
    again, would you agree with Calvinism and the ‘doctrines of grace’? you can be honest. as you say, you are not CC anymore so GB isn’t gonna jump out of the bushes and get you…

  194. MiC, To answer your question I am not really sure. Put it this way I have a ton more respect for RC Sproul and his handling of scripture than I do of Chuck Smith. With that said I am probably more of a Lutheran than a Calvinist but my real beef is that CC has touted itself as having this incredible balance and tolerance for things like Calvinism vs. Armininism and Pentecostal vs. cessationalists. But it seems like out of no where in 2011 CS came out really hard against Calvinists and now in 2012 they seem to be back tracking and becoming more friendly with Mark Driscol and by the way I am no Mark Driscol fan. All of this bothers me because it appears CC just wants to gain more market share instead of being truthful to the scriptures.

  195. andrew,
    Thank you for the answer. i can appreciate the difficulty you must be experiencing trying to figure it out. keep at it by all means. Would it be ok for me to ask what happened to you that you said you were abused and thrown our of CC? Was it a doctrinal issue or was it for some other personal reason or for calling out problems you saw within the system or your particular church? if you feel comfortable sharing, it might be helpful to others and myself in understanding your point of view better. thx again.
    -mike

  196. Here you go.
    What I have learned is don’t challenge a pastor’s vision or there will be consequences.
    http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2012/02/about-any-word-from-god.html

  197. I know its a bit late in the day to be a part of this discussion, so I will just share some observation instead. What a wonderful experience thia has been me to witness. It feels as though I able to be like a butterfly on the all observing iron sharpening iron. I didn’t say fly because they are often viewed as being a bit nasty and full of bad germs and so forth :-).

    I have a few quick questions and then a comment to make:

    (1) Who or what is GB?
    (2) Who or what is PP?
    (3) Does anyone know what a pest is? One that has nothing to contribute of any benefit, but hangs around because they are either sent to do so, are lonely, or wanting to be the center of attention.
    (4) Remember Barnabus, the guy that try to be a buffer between Paul and what was his name?
    (5) Is anyone familiar with what is referred to “Workplace Bullying?”

    Now why did I ask all these questions? The first two question is because in order to follow your discussion, it would be nice to know in order to understand what is being reference in light of information or points being made.

    The third has to do with Martin Luther and Gene, whom I don’t have the foggiest notion who they are but clearly take offense at their attempt to undermine, to distract, and to think for a moment it is of any benefit to the process that is taking place in this group. I don’t exactly know why it is, but there usually always someone who wants to take on this role in a group dynamic that is going on. Often times, it has more to do with subconsciouly wanting to be a part of the group, but not having developed or feeling as though anything of significance would come across as being dumb or stupid or significant. So what happens is they do what they have learned to do and that is to be disruptive instead. They take joy in being able to do this because they do frustratee other group members and get the attention at the same time. The pay off for them is unfortunately they deceive themselves in thining this kind of behavior makes them somehow better than everyone else. It sad and yes, it is very immature. The best way to handle it is to ignore it, but rather try to draw out of them what they think and how they feel about this or that. To play back or to get sucked into their little game is only doing what they want you to do—reduce yourself “down” to their level. I think everyone here is far to intelligent and mature to do this, don’t you?

    The fourth question was about Barnabus. From what I could gather regarding the situation with Michael and what I am understanding his site called the Phoenix Preacher was taken offline to appease CC. How sad, if this is a correct understanding. From what those of you who shared about this and from what Michael also clarified. I see him as being a Barnabus. A very wise and earnest man who have much love in hiim concerning his brother and sister and like (Question 5) the more seriously dysfunctional Workplace environment, he instead of being able to accomplish the auduous task of opening honest dialogue between two camps, he got caught between them.

    My opinion for whatever its worth and acknowledging not having but a recent history with this blog site, is this. I have been a Christian since October 23, 1978. I am well educated and have worked in direct ministry. I have taught Bible study and have been under the tutelege of some awesome apologist since 1986. I have worked for the governkment and I have spoken before large and small audiences. I have worked for private and non profit organizations. I have been in direct communication with senators, ambassadors, generals, colonels, prime ministers, judges, probation and parole officers and their respective Directors, as well as those who live in the streets, and also those who suffer from a myriad of mental health issues. Saying this, if you want to understand the what, how, when, and why of CC – understand the dynamics of a bully. Once you do this you will understand why good pastors don’t step up to the plate and why the peacemakers end up having to have their heart broken due to having to giving in when it is the last thing they want to do and hoping for a better opportunity to make a dent in a system that they dearly love while taking the risk of seeminly abandoning others. If you can understand who the players are you can then also figure out for sure what tactics they use and how to dissemble, diffuse, and hold them to an account. A good sight to get this information is: http://www.workplacebullying.org/

    This along with the several short Utube videos on “Workplace bullying should clear some things up for you. Particularly in understanding why good people stand by and do nothing..

    Like I said, this is a little late in the day given the date this is being posted. The information, however, will be good whenever you choose to use it.

    You know, I imagine that when the disciples were talking and trying to sort through everything before and after Jesus came and went, they must have gone through much of what we do as well. Paul, think about him and how he and Barnabus came to butting heads, so much so they had to part ways for a season. Think about Paul afterwards, he came up with his treatise on Love. Think about how he loved the Lord so much, he was willing to take the various churches to task, even the church of Jerusalem and Peter as well. But also think about how Barnabus, as little did the scripture make mention of him, he was so effective in making a huge impact upon Paul, a persecutor of the body of Christ, to cause him to wrestle with the love that God so richly bestowed upon us and commanded us to do likewise towards one another. Simply Amazing, don’t you think?

    And finally what comes to my mind is Paul’s words, “what, because I speak the truth you make me an enemy now?”

  198. Went back into my files and pull out the one that help me settle an EEO claim:

    http://www.workplacebullying.org/

    I liked it because the way the article was set up, giving me the nuts and bolts without all the stuff other sites use to get you to talk to someone before understanding just what the red flags, symptoms, and character tratis were. After getting to the gut of these things, there is a list of resources that you can call and talk free to vent or to develop a plan of action. They will help you see the potholes to avoid further victimization.

    The bully in the Workplace is no different than in any other setting. Be it at home, in the church, in the park, on the streets and so forth. Who once said: “Know thy enemy.”

  199. Satan has been infiltrating the sheep, since the beginning. We talk a lot of doctrine, but we do very little Spiritual Warfare on behalf of our Pastors or Churches. Should we not expect our enemy to exploit this spiritual apathy?

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