Oct 212011
 

http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/alex-grenier-interview/

[Click blue link above] Thank you to Phil Naessen’s (Philly Flash) for the opportunity to interview via his Podcast. Hopefully it gets much needed information out to the public in another attempt to get some resolve to this terrible situation, to call Calvary Chapel Leadership to repentance and to warn others about the ongoing sin in the Camp Calvary Chapel and the mishandling of it.

Bob Grenier is the Poster Child for everything that is wrong with the Moses Model Construct as articulated and practiced by some Circles in the Calvary Chapel Tent.

Again, I call Chuck Smith, Pastor/Leader of the Calvary Chapel Movement / Denomination to Dis-Affiliate Bob Grenier and hold him to account as Bob’s “Pastor”.

 Posted by at 10:56 am

  226 Responses to “Interview with Phil Naessen’s regarding the Calvary Chapel situation: Bob Grenier’s child abuse, alleged molestation, corruption and Chuck Smith’s lying and unscriptural handling of it”

  1. First…

    To say Thank you Alex for sharing your heart in a such a clear and transparent interview!

  2. Just finished listening. I hope Phil has a good size audience and this can help spread the word. Thanks for doing it, Alex!

  3. Alex,

    As I said before on he other thread, thanks so much for what you are doing for all of us.
    I really hope all who have opposed you will at least take the time to listen to this interview before they continue to turn a deaf ear.

    It is especially clever how Phil used the message Chuck gave against you, in the context of your “story”.

    When Chuck Smith said “I feel sorry for the guy”, it will have new meaning to everyone who listens.

  4. …maybe he didn’t say “I feel sorry for the guy” but “feel sorry for the guy”
    Either way…

  5. Hannah, yes, that is a clear distinction that needs to be made.

    Chuck wasn’t saying, “feel sorry for the guy” as in he feels sorry I was abused etc…it was “I feel sorry for what God’s going to do to him for being on the side of the devil and attacking me, God’s Anointed, the High Holy Prophet Chuck Smith”…in essence.

    Very wrong and very cult-like and very dangerous example.

  6. Thank you also Alex for what you do. Chuck seemed to be mostly concerned with himself and CC’s image. Your blog is dismissed as “vicious”, as if that is the purpose of your blog. Chuck was clearly not talking and caring about what happened to you and your brothers and passed over your issue by mentioning the abuse, but not going into how terrible that must have been, etc. He instead “pitied” you. His concerns were things like, how can I defend myself? It was interesting listening to you pour out your heart and then hear Chuck speaking inbetween. Says it all. The word that came to my mind was narcissism – the inability to look at oneself or the situation truthfully, and the concern is mainly with his church image and himself, not with your pain. Wasn’t he such a good guy for reaching out to you? His ending about what God could do to Alex showed where his concerns are, and it isn’t with Alex and the abuse issue with BG. But he loves Alex —-

  7. Thanks Alex for the interview. It really put a lot in perspective especially telling about your own family and your children not being able to see their own grand mother. I realize now this isn’t even about your own experience of abuse but how the cult like behavior of CC has caused so much damage to so many. I hope if Chuck Smith listens to the interview he will do a 180 degree about face and repent and take back all the nasty things he said about you from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit and do the right thing.

  8. Andrew said, “I realize now this isn’t even about your own experience of abuse but how the cult like behavior of CC has caused so much damage to so many”

    Yes. That gets lost in the blog noise at times, which is why the podcasts/interviews are a good venue as well b/c it is able to add a third dimension to the 2 dimension written words.

    Amen to the rest of your comment as well, I hope Chuck repents quickly and does an about face and deals with this situation in an honest, right and just manner.

  9. Alex, It was sad listening to your accounts of abuse at Bob’s hands. Something that caught my attention was when you mentioned Bob was a Viet Nam vet. Do you know if he saw action and how intense it was? How much do you think that had to do with his violent outbursts and did he ever seek some sort of help for it?

    I’ve had the chance to know several couples who had blended marriages. Marriages where each spouse brought a child or children from a previous marriage into the new marriage. Without fail I observed how each parent was easier on their child than the child/children of their spouses prior marriage. Was this something you saw in your mom’s relationship with Bob? Did you and Geoff get treated differently than your other brothers as far as Bob’s abuse was concerned?

    What really struck me was when you related how the board learned of this abuse and gave Bob a pass. How can they live with themselves knowing what took place AFTER they knew? In my eyes they share in the guilt to some degree as they had the chance to do the right thing and didn’t.

    I experienced much via my father as a youth. I can see the impact it had on my siblings to this day. Thankfully my father’s brother got him into AA. His drinking stopped and he later on came to faith. Many years after that each of us kids got a call from dad as he asked forgiveness for the sins he had committed against us. Years after that I had the privilege of eulogizing him after he died. In a sense I got the happy ending you’ve been denied. This after wanting my father dead and telling people he was dead while he was still alive. I hope your story ends with an ending similar to mine. I have to believe there’s still hope for Bob. God bless you Alex.

  10. E-runner
    I think worse than the abuse was when Bob Grenier told his stepson Alex that if he told anyone about the abuse, he and his brother would go to a Foster home and be seperated.
    Could you imagine what that would do to a boy who was so close to his brother?

    About the question whether he favored his biological children, I believe he was accused of molesting his own biological son. Thats what I always remembered from “meet the Family” post here.

    The jar of change incident really was upsetting to hear.
    To accuse your 5 year old of stealing a jar of change and not to remember until you beat him 40 times (isn’t there mention of 40 lashes in the Bible?) that you had a homeless man in the house who could have taken it. That was unbelieveable to me.
    When Alex shared that he frantically looked for it , all the while knowing he didn’t take it…I just felt so sad for him.

    For Bob Grenier to say he had a “temper problem”….that is just not acceptable for a Pastor.
    It is a sin problem.
    The man needs help.

  11. Hannah, I fell asleep during the interview and will have to complete it another time!! :)

    What I heard was very disturbing and reminded me of my youth. What Alex and his brothers experienced was much worse though.

    Home should be our sanctuary. More so when your father is a pastor…. you would think. When home is not a safe place that will undo a child. Innocence should never be betrayed. Getting beat about a money jar when a street person is also in the home is beyond the pale. Being threatened with being placed out of the home is unthinkable. That a pastor would do those things doesn’t register with me. They’re supposed to represent God and protect you at all costs. Not use you as a punching bag. Yet that’s the world we live in.

    I thought I remembered that there is a fourth brother who struggled with mental illness? I think he was hospitalized?? It seemed to me Bob exhibited signs of PTSD.

    Coming from a criminal background and becoming a pastor so soon after feeds the sense of power and unquestionable authority/power. Mix in paranoia and rage and you had a disaster waiting to happen.

    Removing Bob from the pastorate would be doing him a favor. Maybe then he might be open to the idea he’s in need of repentance. It seems the longer he remains unconfronted by those close to him he won’t have to face some unpleasant truths.

    I hope you’re well Hannah. That song you shared with me is excellent. I’ll be posting music later today on my blog. Feel free to drop by and have a listen. God bless.

  12. E, Bob treated his sons pretty bad, too, especially Paul. He was an equal opportunity a-hole.

    Yes, Robert Bobby Grenier Jr. was admitted to Cypress Mental Health in Visalia for hearing voices and placed on suicide watch years ago after Bob put him in the Visalia Rescue Mission.

    The day after Robert Bobby Jr. was admitted, Bob made my Mom leave for a vacation to Whistler Canada, despite my Mom wanting to stay to be with her youngest son.

    That’s the way Bob Sr. rolls. Don’t want to let a little thing like your son being on suicide watch get in the way of a nice high-end vacation.

  13. Alex, I hope Robert has gotten to a place where those past experiences are now being taken care of. It’s interesting in that I ran an article on domestic violence today. It speaks to the fact that many domestic abuse victims go on to experience symptoms of PTSD. Further suffering for the victim(s). It doesn’t seem fair. Anyway, I’ll link the article if you or anyone else is interested.

    http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/domestic-abuse-survivors-battle-combat-like-disorders/

  14. One thing that Alex did not share in the interview. I believe it is very shocking and sheds a huge light on how these pastors cover for each other. Gary Ruff, a CC pastor who is or was on bob’s board witnessed first hand bob shoving Geoff up against the wall, hitting him and then dragging him into a hotel room where the abuse continued. Later Gary asked Geoff about it and Geoff shared that it happened all the time. This was on a mission trip in 1987. Let me state that again, IN 1987!!!! He did NOTHING! I believe that he was legally bound to report it to the authorities all those years ago. Gary, if you would have done what you were morally and legally obligated to do at that time think of the years you coud have saved these boys from more brutal abuse. You were given another chance to make things right when Alex notified bob’s board that you were on at the time. Shame on you Gary Ruff!

    I don’t believe anyone could listen to that interview and not be riveted to the core of their heart and spirit. Alex, may your voice become like thunder that will bring the walls that surround bob and chuck’s kingdoms they have erected in honor of themselves tumbling down on their heads!!

    Thank you again Alex for having the integrity and courage to stand in the gap for so many hurting people. I am so proud and grateful…

  15. #11″Coming from a criminal background and becoming a pastor so soon after feeds the sense of power and unquestionable authority/power. Mix in paranoia and rage and you had a disaster waiting to happen.”
    I agree with this. It’s one thing I’ve wondered about – the backgrounds of some of these pastors that seems to not matter. I remember some time back, someone I know well who was drinking too much, using coke alot, and having abuse issues got “saved”. He only has a high school education, but somehow because he is able to be a clone of Chuck, he is now a pastor. I think it’s a joke the fact that he wanted to be a “pastor” in the first place. People don’t “change” that quickly. I’ve heard the “Jesus has made me a new person” too many times and seen it to be wishful thinking. This not being a denomination, as CC tries to claim means anyone can start a CC no matter what their character is like in the shadows when they are not in front of the public crowd being a clone. Let the body beware.

  16. I’m listening to the interview right now – Even though I’ve known you for nearly 20 years Alex, I’m so proud of you for having the courage to keep stepping forward as you have. I find it very sad, (but quite ironic) that somehow the abuse that you have described has ultimately been used to build a tenacity in your character that now gives you such unstoppable courage, even when under fire.

    Has Bob’s status as a Vietnam vet ever been verified? Just curious…

  17. Re: Sue @ 15 said,

    “… the backgrounds of some of these pastors that seems to not matter. I remember some time back, someone I know well who was drinking too much, using coke alot, and having abuse issues got “saved”. He only has a high school education, but somehow because he is able to be a clone of Chuck, he is now a pastor. I think it’s a joke the fact that he wanted to be a “pastor” in the first place. People don’t “change” that quickly. I’ve heard the “Jesus has made me a new person” too many times and seen it to be wishful thinking.”

    I had a radical Apostle Paul experience when I became a Christian. Everyone noticed a huge change in me overnight. I certainly believed I was a new person in Christ, since the change in my heart was so radical instantaneously, and it stuck.

    The Scripture does say we are a new person in Christ. 2Corinthians 5:17. HOWEVER, I did not change my personality, my history, my strengths, my weaknesses, etc…

    We are not to put novices into leadership positions because they do need to be tested. 1Tim 5. And they do need to fit the biblical qualifications for leadership. Being “able to teach” doesn’t happen overnight. Nor does having a good reputation in the community happen overnight.

  18. Got one in moderation

  19. Re: JonD @ 16 said,

    “Has Bob’s status as a Vietnam vet ever been verified? Just curious…”

    This does have to be checked. I’ve known someone all my life who said he was a prisoner in the Korean War. His church wanted to honor him, but when his wife tried to verify his service she found out it’s been a lie for 50 years.

    When many started saying such things, they never imagined a technological age where finding out the answers would be so easy!

  20. For what it’s worth — Alex is speaking the truth!

    TO ANYONE NEW TO THIS BLOG, you can start almost anywhere on this site and find the same stories and accounts being documented from a wide variety of sources, including many of us who have been very close to Alex and his family, and who can provide very reputable accounts of what Alex shared in this interview.

    Although I was not literally an “eyewitness” to physical abuse, I would refer you to my original post here under the heading “Calvary Chapel Visalia: Pastor Bob Grenier / abuse and corruption” from July 2, 2010, Post #99.

    I have worked behind the scene in the CCV office with his stepfather, Bob Grenier. I have spent time in the Grenier home. I have led worship at a home fellowship with Bob and Gayle and the Dowds from CCV. I attended a home fellowship for several years with Alex’s grandmother and great-grandmother (right up until the day that they were both told that Bob ordered them they weren’t to have anymore to do with our group).

    Alex’s grandmother Ruth opened up one night in that home fellowship sharing with us that she just couldn’t understand why her daughter would “put up with (Bob)” because he is so “demanding” with her, and so “hard on those boys”. She stopped abruptly and started crying. When she stopped crying, she apologized for “gossiping”, and asked that we just pray for Bob and Gayle and those boys (I’ve never shared this with Alex before now).

    Listen to this interview and KNOW FOR A FACT that it is NOT JUST Alex’s recollection of a few things that may or may not have happened as he describes.

  21. Jon, thank you (and all of you who have stood up, shared testimonies, speak out on the blog, pray, etc etc) for speaking up once again.

    I did not know that my Gradma Ruth (who I loved very much and miss very much) had said that publicly. She resisted Bob early on, but Bob wore her down over the years and she knew if she wanted to see her daughter (Gayle) that she’d have to play ball and put up with a lot of Bob’s crap.

    I had to threaten Greg Dowds with going to the local newspaper (as Bob wouldn’t talk to me at this point) to see my Grandma Ruth when she was dying and staying at Bob’s home.

    I was “granted” a brief supervised visit to see my dying Grandmother and took my daughter to see her Great Grandma one last time before she died. I have it on video.

    The Dowds were monitoring our meeting with her. Sick. Freaking cult weirdos.

  22. Alex, that is painful to even read. No matter how Bob reads your actions, there is still no excuse as a Christian for such behavior.

    JonD, it’s testimonials like yours that helps those of us who don’t know Alex to understand and believe. Thanks!

  23. JonD and Janelle…great posts.

    First, Gary Ruff needs to be tarred and feathered metaphorically. It is not a shame that he did nothing, it is morally reprehensible and blatant sin. He literally had the chance to bring a stop to this a decade and a half ago. When this story plays out more, he wil be paraded along with Bob Grenier as the fool that he is.

    My alias has been maintained so I focus on the subject and not have to deal with people calling me out for who I am by name. I am very very incensed after listening to the podcast in its full length this morning. I have always felt that a blog can only do so much. When we all heard Chuck Smith’s own voice a few weeks ago, that convinced many. When people listen to Alex’s own voice, you do not hear a deranged man, you hear a well thought out, consistant account that has been told many times now for three years. I find Chuck Smith in contempt now. He is shielding a criminal, and it will take the courts, or a band of high level attorneys to convince him that he has a great level of responsibility in all this, and he must do something. Many fine men, because of calloused indifference, will have their legacies permanantly stained over their neglect of dealing with Bob Grenier. Believe me, Bob Grenier is not worth that.

  24. These men have a moral and spiritual obligation to repent of their indifference, and address the sins of Bob Grenier, and their own publically now:
    Greg and Suzie Dowds…lead elders at CCV
    Mike Buford…CCV staff administrator.
    Jeff Fly…CCV elder
    Brent Calvin….CCV elder
    Floyd Westbrook…pastor of Visalia Christian Ministries
    Andy Mangano…strong public supporter of Bob Grenier
    Ray Replogle…former CCV elder
    David Rosales
    Raul Ries
    Gary Ruff
    Roger Wing
    Brian Broderson
    Chuck Smith
    All other CC SPs that are actively associated with Bob Grenier.

    There may be more. Add to the list if you know who they are. It’s time to get their names into this more. They are aiding and abetting Bob Grenier and their responsibility in this must be constantly made known.

  25. Alex, I hope it didn’t hurt you at all that I shared that story publicly before sharing it with you; it has really stood out to me over the years, but it never made total sense until knowing about the abuse. I think all of us that night just assumed that Bob was very strict, etc.

    A little detail I didn’t share above was that your great-grandma Mildred was present that night too (I think she was 98 or 99 at the time). After Ruth made her statement about “I don’t know why (your mom) would put up with Bob…”, grandma Mildred immediately spoke up and said, “I can tell you this: I wouldn’t put up with it!”.

    I loved your grandmothers too, and enjoyed the times of fellowship we shared. I have fond memories of my little girl sitting and visiting with your grandma Mildred. They were good friends, even though they were 90+ years difference in age. I know that it hurt your grandmothers to be told that they were to have no contact with the home fellowship that they loved being part of for so many years, but by then all of us understood the “why” of the situation all too well. Your grandmothers were only the first of a long line of CCV friends who were told to have nothing to do with us infidels… “cultic” you say? Absolutely!

  26. Jon, no problem, glad you shared it. It actually means a lot to me.

    I loved my Grandma Ruth and my Great Grandma (Oatma) Mildred very much. They were wonderful women of God.

    Unfortunately, they were too old to take on a jerk like Bob. But, they did comfort us behind the scenes, often.

    It is cult-like to issue Fatwas and mark Bible Believing professing Brothers in Christ as Infidels and mark them for hell and mark them the spawn of the devil….as Bob Grenier and I’m finding out many CC Senior Pastors do (heck, even the Head Honcho of the supposed “independent” CC’s all bearing the fully licensed name and logo and swearing (agreeing) to a Contract agreement to follow Chuck’s articulated Religion in the Distinctives, etc.)…does it from the CCCM pulpit. Such a “blessing”. Thanks Pastor Chuck.

  27. With Bob Grenier’s penchant for the con, I was also wondering if his military service records had been verified.

  28. I think Bob’s military service is legit, as I have seen a picture of him in a marine corps uniform before.

  29. And, something had to have happened to the guy, not defending his actions, he should’ve gotten help and not been a Pastor and Police Chaplain etc.

    Bob’s one tweaked dude behind the scenes. Anyone who wakes up in the middle of the night with night terrors all the time screaming and cussing and cruising through the house buck naked has got issues.

    Maybe it was all the hard core drugs he did (he was a drug dealer and drug smuggler as well, never prosecuted though, but he touts it in his Book and Testimony).

  30. Three years now Alex and still no credible defense of Bob Grenier’s actions over the past 30 years. If that dude was innocent and truly loved as a man of God, then hundreds of great upstanding people in Visalia would have come to his defense by now. But silence. Pure silence. What does that mean to you?

  31. Alex,

    You don’t sound vicious to me. I’ve never heard you before, but you sounded sane to me.
    You sound like a young Jay Sekulow who hasn’t had any coffee yet. I was glad to not just
    read your story, but hear you in your own words. This seems like such an impossible situation and just when it looked like something good was going to happen – I am praying
    with you brother. The wheels of justice turn slowly…………..
    I listened to the whole podcast and was wondering about your college years with JM……

  32. I listened to the interview and was especially disturbed by the recording of Papa Smith telling his congregation about how he was so badly mistreated(poor baby) and threatening the wrath of God on Alex. What a headcase! and the idiots that listen to him – do these people ever check google for cc + scandal? i guess they’re too busy having their country club church activities. Alex, please do not try to communicate with these demon possessed people anymore – as i said in another thread, you’re just going to give yourself an ulcer. Expose them, yes, but don’t dialogue with them – its useless!

  33. Alex @ 28,

    Bob may very well have been in Vietnam and may have gotten his night terrors from that time; but the pic with the uniform isn’t enough to confirm. My relative also had a pic in the uniform. It’s just not as uncommon as one would like to believe.

  34. Excellent point, Wide Awake @ 30!

    SILENCE from supporters of Bob Grenier….

  35. Thanks Glen. Normally I’m a little more animated, but I was battling a cold at the time of the interview, so I wasn’t as clear-headed and as sharp as normal…but I didn’t want to miss the opportunity.

    I have another interview next week with a Radio Show and Podcast in Arizona. I’ll drink a couple of coffees before going at it :smile:

  36. Also would like to thank Phil Naessens for doing the interview over at “What Color is the SKy in their World”. Thank you Phil

  37. I think you should share what your grandmothers said. It’s makes one sit up and take notice.

  38. Glen, I had a great two years at Master’s College (I was a transfer student from College of the Sequoias in Visalia where I majored in Journalism and was the Editor of the School newspaper).

    This was during the time of Bob’s foray into Calvinism. I was still co-dependent at that stage and was still playing the game and keeping up appearances. I was pretty focused on baseball and school the first year and then work and school the second year.

    Danny Bond, Bob’s BFF at the time, (and CC SP at Laguna Hills, where Rolph took over) came and spoke at a Chapel at Master’s.

    Bob was pretty buddy buddy with Johnny Mac at that time, until he “repented” of Calvinism and kicked out all those evil Calvinists (who he lead into Calvinism) who were holding Bob to account for being a corrupt scoundrel.

  39. My Grandma couldn’t say much, as the Dowds were monitoring our time with her and she couldn’t speak freely, that’s how cultish it was.

    I’ll have to review the video. My recollection was she articulated a neutral position as much as she could so as not to anger Bob, as the Dowds would rat her out for sure…and she then told us how much she loved us and was praying for us, etc and was very sweet to my daughter.

  40. In regards to Bob Grenier’s military service I have often wondered if in fact that was even true. Bob is a pathological liar and a con-man. I wouldn’t put it past him in the least to fabricate something like that. I first seriously questioned it when I read his “book” if you can even call it that. The timelines and version of his life he expounded on did not match up with the versions I had heard him tell over the years. And for the second or third time, I stopped and wondered if he had made the whole thing up.

    Here’s what we do know: Nobody really knows anything about Bob and his past life pre-Gayle. So there’s really no way to verify it. Bob’s brother, Bill, isn’t really on the scene and Bob’s mother, my dear grandmother (who also despised Bob and called him a monster when he wasn’t around) is deceased so there’s no way to verify it with her. I do know that my grandmother, Nana, said Bob was troubled early on as a child and tortured small animals and got in trouble for being an arsonist which is the real reason they put him in boarding school because they didn’t know what to do with him. She said he was evil as a child and that she was pretty much scared of him.

  41. I confirm Paul’s testimony about what Nana (Bob’s mother) said about him as a child. I heard the same story from her regarding Bob torturing animals and the arson, etc.

    I even heard Bob tell the same stories, but toned down and in a similar manner to how he told the “Gash in the ceiling” Breaking the Chair Temper story…as if it was funny and innocuous and no big deal, etc.

  42. There are military records. We just have to find out how to access them.

  43. Gotta say,

    arsonist
    small animal torture
    Mother calling him a monster & evil & being scared of him
    No one knowing his past

    … pretty bad stuff.

  44. What’s Bob Grenier’s full legal name?

    What years does he say he served?

    Which branch of the military?

    What was his rank?

  45. Alex: Again, I call Chuck Smith, Pastor/Leader of the Calvary Chapel Movement / Denomination to Dis-Affiliate Bob Grenier and hold him to account as Bob’s “Pastor”.

    There is something I am wondering about.

    Regardless of how he might have operated in the past, let us concede for the sake of argument the following: that all what Chuck says is very much true with regard to the current state of affairs.

    I think this would mean the following:

    (1) The CCOF provides nothing more than simply a fancy but informal club to facilitate “like-minded” senior pastors getting together to hobnob or “fellowhip” with each other. Otherwise, they are all entirely independent. Membership in the club does have the following perks: (a) being listed at the CC website, (b) getting invitations to conferences, (c) being pals with famous celebrity pastors, (d) being able to put up the cookie-cutter dove, and (d) absorbing the CC cachet.

    (2) There are no legally binding “affiliation” agreements, which is to say there are no agreements that entail any legally binding obligations or liability. And anything like that which might have existed in the past is now null and void.

    (3) Chuck Smith, CCCM, and CCOF exercise no oversight over any of the club members.

    (4) Neither Chuck Smith nor his corporations have any responsibility for anything the members do. Nor do they have any resulting liability.

    Let us concede to Chuck Smith all of these points. Then I have one question:

    What exactly do I have to do to get myself booted out of the club?

    If witnesses were to come in and testify that I or Mr. So-and-So were bad apples and unfit to be pastors, then how hard is it to kick us bad apple out of your club?

    Is it all that hard to tell your webmaster to remove a bad apple’s church from your club member list? Or to stop inviting the bad apple to your conferences?

    Come on, Chuck. I hope you are reading this. If things aren’t so simple, then please tell me: Is there something going on behind the scenes that I am missing?

  46. I applaud you for taking a stand against the system wide abuse that is tolerated/ignored by Calvary Chapel elders. You mentioned the word “ridiculous” numerous times in the interview and yet the word that came to my mind each and every time was “absurd”. It is just beyond all rational thought that the years of utter terror and unchecked power have just been allowed to continue for so very long.

    Just listening to the brief clip of Chuck from the pulpit, it is so very clear to me that he is choosing the “head in the sand” route. If he can’t see it, it just doesn’t count for anything. I believe you and your brother that it happened, and “so sad, BUT….. get over it” is very clearly the essence of his meaning. So very callous and not in any way Christlike.

    I grew up in that very church, served in that church under Bob, considered myself a friend of both you and Geoff, looked up to both Bob and Gayle (she was all that I wanted to be – from what I could see on the outside) and babysat for Paul and Robert. I cannot describe the horror and sadness that I feel upon learning about what went on behind closed doors. He is hardly a man that should be in any position of leadership. His responsibility is/was great and he has failed miserably. I am trying very hard not to judge as it is not my place, but these circumstances make it extremely hard. Judgement day will be pretty hard for him.

    Keep fighting the fight, there are many more supporting and praying for you than you know. If all of this stops even one person from being ex-communicated, abused, or cheated, it will all have been worth it. God bless you and your family.

  47. Check this out everyone. Bob Grenier has a new website dedicated to himself:

    http://www.bobgrenier.com/

    Google his name and this comes up first now…above the CCA site. Congratulations Grenier…you are using the Lord’s money very wisely on web development. We love you you scoundrel. I think it is cool how you are building the infrastructure for people to read all about you when some indictments come your way…

  48. What’s Bob Grenier’s full legal name?

    Robert Jacques Grenier (Correction: oops that’s Jr.) Robert Sr. is Robert Joseph Grenier born in Winnepeg Canada

    What years does he say he served?

    I’ll try to find out, I think Paul knows.

    Which branch of the military?

    Marines

    What was his rank?

    He said he reached Lance Corporal

  49. Wide Awake, yes, that’s been an obsession of Bob’s and it is reported he has spent over $10,000 of the Calvary Chapel Visalia’s money to do so…and counting.

    That’s OK, we’re right underneath him :smile:

  50. Friend in CA, welcome and thank you.

  51. “Unlike” button pressed here.

  52. LOL. I just noticed that some time passed between Wide’s comment (#48) and the time I clicked my imaginary “Unlike” button so I’d best clarify — I “Unliked” the bobgrenier.com website announcement.

  53. Correction:

    Robert Jr. is Robert Jacques Grenier, Robert Sr. is Robert Joseph Grenier. My bad :smile:

  54. So if we can’t find Bob’s military record, then we’ll start checking the jails …

    … just a thought since we don’t have witnesses to his past.

  55. Thanks for the info Alex.

    And thanks for mentioning your questions about the time-line, Paul.

  56. @Grateful. BG’s birthdate would also be useful if you are researching.

  57. I just looked at bob’s new website and lol, it tells it all. The first thing you see is bob on his MIGHTY VESPA! For those of you who do not know bob this is his IDOL!!!

    I have a question, if we visit his website, does it benefit him by number of hits? If so ignote it!

  58. whoops, it should have read, ignore.

  59. Man, that’s pretty bad when your own mother can’t speak well of you to your grandchildren. Arson and torturing small animals? I forget whether there was anything in “the book” about his father being abusive (?). Boarding school, then drug smuggling and drug dealing (internationally, right?). Then a commune for a brief time. Of course, he qualifies for a place behind the pulpit! Oh my gosh.

    My own dealings with him were awful enough. However, the more stuff comes out, the weirder it sounds. Twilight Zone music, please.

  60. Re: Rabte @ 57

    Thanks. I think you’re right. There’s even a serial number per soldier, right?

    Alex, if you want to give out Bob’s birth date you have my email.

  61. The only thing that didn’t sound weird was Alex in the radio interview. Gee, Alex, if you weren’t your sharpest and best then, CC better look out for when you are because you were completely articulate with all the facts and time frames–everything. You did an outstanding job! Perhaps Chuck and Bob are intimidated by that level of articulation….which could be one of many reasons they’re not fond of you. Too bad!

    It was gut-wrenching to listen to you describe all of what you guys endured. So very wrong for all of you to be victimized in so many ways and for so long. Bob shouldn’t be able to ride off into the sunset without accountability.

    Never give up, Alex. The Lord uses human instruments to accomplish His purposes. It’s not always a throwing up of our hands and saying “well, it’s all in God’s hands,” which by my way of thinking is a cop out for lack of action in righting a wrong. God doesn’t smile on injustice. God is using you in fairly powerful ways. Be persistent. Fighting for justice, for the abused has never been wrong.

  62. if you want to do background, find someone who has access to Experian background checks.

    By the way, if that is in fact Paul’s actual picture, then Alex sure got shortchanged. On the othrr hand, I’m sure Alex has an attractive wife and his looks and her marrying him prove there is a God. Why bother with the creationism vs. evolution debate. Just point to Alex and his wife like others point to me and my wife. Sorry buddy.

  63. Re: Janelle @ 58

    My resident computer wiz son says in order to spend the inordinate amount of $10K on a website placing, it is first assumed that price includes building the website, then paying for either fake hits our possibly there’s a way to outright pay for the top spot, though not entirely sure on that last part.

    Our visiting Bob’s site won’t make a difference. CCA number of hits has to be much larger than Bob’s site. So whatever he’s doing to get his on top is his doing, highly doubtful it’s the web traffic doing it.

  64. Sheesh. Things are getting alfully heavy and serious around here. So……..a joke from my dear old Dad, Shecky Greene:

    “she’s been married so many times she has rice marks on her face.”

  65. Thanks, Sheck.

    I was actually going directly to my inside sources, though I don’t know what they are allowed to look up for me?

    I’m sure this info is not a secret and it can’t be that hard to find. If my easy routes don’t work, I’ll look for Experian.

  66. Serious? Aw, shucks, Sheckie, look’in stuff up on websites is like shooting fish in a barrell! It’s loads of fun!

  67. You guys didn’t read down Google’s webpage. After Bob’s is the wikipedia which states he once worked for the CIA. Now thatbmy friens splains everythang.

  68. Seriously? Do we have any verification on that, or are you just pull’in my leg, Sheckster?

  69. Okay, one of my legs is definitely longer than the other now!

  70. its really there. go look

  71. I saw it, but not the same Bob Grenier.

    Unless … Bob has another life … a dual life, perhaps? Sheckie, don’t hold back, give us the goods!!!

  72. Bob’s a poet, too! ;)

  73. Here ya go, Sheck!

    *******
    “CIA leak case and Libby trial”

    “In early 2006, Grenier was identified in court documents in connection with the ongoing CIA leak grand jury investigation and charges against I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby.”

  74. See, Grenier knew “Scooter” Libby, so that splains everything! ;)

  75. Sheck, ROTFLOL! :lol:

    You missed your calling…Stand Up my man…the Lawyer Comedian, that’s quite the Paradox.

    Yes, Paul is definitely the good looking one in the family…though Geoff would like to think he is :smile:

    I am lucky my wife likes Matt Damon, Mark Wahlberg and a younger Val Kilmer…mixed with a good dose of Alfred E. Neuman :lol:

  76. If you read further down, it sez that Bob Grenier was the basis for the character, Maxwell Smart.

  77. G, there is a Robert (Bob) Grenier who used to be the CIA Director. Funny isn’t it?

  78. Sheck, Maxwell Smart is definitely out of Bob’s league. ;)

  79. Hey. Damon ain’t so hot lookin. Bet he can’t boast that his jowls attach to his shoulder blades. Or that his stomach prevents his toes from getting wet in the shower.

  80. Or, Alex, as a covert CIA Director, being a pastor may be the perfect cover? ;)

  81. Bob Grenier to Pastor Chuck: Chief. I think it’s time for the cone of silence.

  82. ROTFLMAO! @ 82

  83. This is humor for the older set …

  84. I don’t care wher yer from. Now that’s funny.

  85. On that note, I’ll call it a night …

    Thanks, Sheck!

  86. Grateful. Glad to leave on a cheery note. Blessings to you mah man. Sleep tight.

  87. Actually, he looks like Captain Stubing on the Love Boat.

    Yer killin me with that youvtube clip. had to change my underwear.

  88. I thought you old guys wore depends? :lol:

  89. Watch it, spudhead. AF almost took you. We’re coming. And in our house too.

  90. Airforce gave us a game, Kellen Moore had to play all 4 quarters. That’ll give SDSU some hope, I bet.

    Yikes! I thought Marshall Faulk was retired?

    Maybe he’ll pull a muscle or something :smile:

  91. You guys have to stop the “Muscle Hamster”…he doesn’t have the shake-n-bake as Hillman, but he’ll just run you over! :smile:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmULhgzbcyU

  92. BCS dreams dashed on de rocks. 1,000’s go on prozac after the loss as all that is left is a long, cold winter, Chuck Missler, Mormons and white arryan militias.

  93. …or, we go to your house and we roll you up 50-17 :smile:

    And, you forgot, we have Mike Kestler, too :lol:

  94. I’ll leave with one of my favorite bedtime stories that dear old Dad would terll me:

    An old man and his wife had just gone to bed. After laying in bed for a few minutes the old man cut a fart and says, “Seven Points.”

    His wife rolls over and asks, “What in the world was that?”

    The old man says, “Touchdown, I’m ahead 7 to nothing.”

    A few minutes later the wife lets one go and says, “Touchdown, Tie score.”

    After about ten minutes later the old man farts again and says, “Touchdown I’m ahead 14-7.”

    Now starting to get into this, the wife quickly farts again and says, “Touchdown tie score.”

    The old man strains really hard but to no avail; he can’t fart, so not to be outdone by his wife, he gives it everything he has and poops in the bed.

    The wife asks, “Now what in the world was that?”

    The old man replies, “Half-Time, Switch-Sides”

  95. Thanks, now I can’t sleep from laughing…and cringing. :smile:

  96. I thought it was a very nice tie-in. Football, old man jokes, bedtime joke..a perfect symetry. nighty night.

  97. G’nite Sheck! Entertaining as usual :smile:

  98. [...] probably need to do a follow up, if Alex is willing of course. You can read some of the responses here but the one question that many of you are asking me privately [...]

  99. Sheck…your joke gives new meaning to what it means to ‘log’ on to this blog.

    I am not responsible, nor do I want to be responsible for Sheck’s flatulant behavior. I have enough trouble trying to control my own…

  100. Alex-

    I did some research yesterday Re: Vietnam vet verification and here is what I found:

    1. Next of kin can contact “Official Military Personnel/ Records Cente”r in St. Louis, Missouri.
    Finding out of a family member has been a Vietnam vet is available to the public (but only next of kin which you or your brothers are)
    Available under the :
    Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
    Download the form and mail or fax information including a cover letter requesting records under the FOIA.
    If the person has not been in the military they will send back a letter staing that there are no records.

    2. Ask the person if he has a DD-214 Form that all vets would have and use for various reasons (maybe to get into the VA, etc). If the person does not have this form, they are not a Vietnam Vet.

    3. Veterans of Foreign wars Chapter- http://www.lovefraud.com/07-howtoCheckThemOut/Verify-military-service.html

  101. I see the last link didn’t work.

  102. My last is stuck. I gave websites for Official Military Personnel Records Center, St. Louis

  103. PS..My father was a Korean war vet.
    For his funeral, he had a grave site flag folding ceremony, with 4 officers from the military there.
    It was really a beautiful ceremony.
    My dad was only there 6 months.
    I am going to ask my mother if she needed to produce any paperwork for this.
    I know the funeral home asked her if he was a vet.
    Otherwise we would not have even known they would have done this.

  104. To Request Military Records-another site

    http://www.archives.gov/veterans/

  105. Bob claims to have served in the Marines from 1966-1968. He also claims to have fought in the battle of Khe Sanh in Vietnam.

  106. Thanks for participating Paul. There is true momentum now. Bob’s private affairs are clearly out in the open now. As Phil said on his blog, this information could have stayed very close to home if some people close to Grenier would have exercised their moral responsibility to call into question his many misdeeds. You and Alex are in-house eye witnesses and it is very hard to refute your consistent, detailed accounts.

  107. NEWS FLASH:

    To all current attendees of Calvary Chapel Visalia, and citizens of Tulare County.

    There has been highly suspicious behavior by the Senior Pastor Bob Grenier for several years. It has been brought to light that many people, including three of his sons and former employees, have documented a host of offenses including child abuse, molestation, workplace harrassment, and misappropriation of church funds. These accusations have been shared with many credible sources but to date, no one within his church or within his fellowship of pastors has acted in any tangible way to call Mr. Grenier to task for these allegations.

    Due to the many accounts being shared from former insiders and once faithful members of Calvary Chapel Visalia, it is highly likely that you will experience very unfavorable consequences resulting from your association with Bob Grenier. Two blogs in the past three years have run a daily storyline tracing ever deepening accounts of mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual abuse at the hands of Mr. Grenier. Some accounts are as recent as within the past few months.

    It is recommended, until Mr. Grenier has been placed on temporary leave of absence to have these allegations thoroughly investigated, that you avoid this religious fellowship to protect your own spiritual health, and mental well-being. It is emphasized with great concern, to avoid contact with Mr. Grenier until this issue is resolved with local or regional church leadership or the governing authorities.

  108. I find it ironic that Bobs site was designed by “greedbegone”.

  109. http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/bobgrenier.com

    According to records, his site is not new (created 2007).

  110. Greedbegone is owned by Jason Gold and his brother.

    Jason Gold was recently on staff at Calvary Chapel Visalia, and like many before him, ended up on the wrong side of Bob Grenier and is no longer there.

    Bob paid Greedbegone over $10,000, according to sources, to get his name to the top of the Google search by any means necessary.

    Bob has had the skeleton of the site since 2007, I assume, but it has only been worked on in earnest and has only been pushed hard with over $10,000 of the Church’s money in the last year or two, according to sources.

  111. http://pastorbobgrenier.blogspot.com/

    It’s interesting that when you go to Pastor Bob Grenier’s blogspot, although he posts regularly, there are zero comments on his posts. Does that mean that:
    1. No one has ever had a comment?
    2. He deletes every comment that doesn’t satisfy him?
    3. He doesn’t allow commenting?
    4. Or…?

    You would think that these posts would invite conversation and exchange among his congregation. It feels like he’s standing in a closet, preaching to a flock that isn’t there.

  112. Rabte, he gets some comments (I know of many who have made comments on his blog about what a hypocrite and liar he is) but he moderates those comments.

    He gets a rare comment from the same couple of people.

    Again, his purpose is to be at the top of Google, this isn’t for any benefit to “his” flock. What a waste of the Lord’s $10,000+ bucks. Typical of Bob Grenier, though. He siphons off nearly $150,000 per year (Tax equivalent) in salary, benefits etc from that “ministry”…and travels like a Head of State, gets literally everything paid for by someone else, etc etc.

    He’s running quite the Con and quite the Family Business…though there are some who are aware of his Con now…and Bob might just get some much needed accountability in some fiscal areas.

    Roger Wing of CCOF did an audit in the last couple of years after allegations were presented to him.

    If CCOF and CCCM and Chuck Smith are not in an Agency Relationship, why would Roger Wing and CCOF Audit CCV’s books based on allegations of corruption etc?

  113. Alex:

    You are mistaken as Roger did not perform an audit under the auspices of CCOF, but as a part of his consulting business. It iscregistered in CA as “On A Wing And A Prayer.”

  114. I am new on here, but have been following this blog for the last six months or so. Why is it that whenever a thread gets serious, this guy you call Sheck highjacks it? And why won’t he use his real name like I do?

    is there anyone out there who gets as worked up about this guy as I do?

  115. Hiyam – I do, but don’t get too worked up Hiyam! Just keep hoping with me for the end of the world when we won’t have to read Sheck’s posts anymore. Didn’t happen in May or on Oct. 21, 2011, as I predicted, but just keep hoping with me, so we can get away from all these people in the “flesh”.

  116. Hiyam…don’t tell Sheck this but we tolerate him because he is our token punching bag. Most of us read his comments with guarded snootiness. He’s one of those…you know…special people groups; a paid hireling; a lawyer of sorts. He usually gets tired of this constant drivel of ours and fades into a season of oblivion. Have faith.

  117. Thanks for all the support. I’m outta here. I’ll leave you to your CC whining

  118. Oh that vicious Sheck! I could hurt him a little, but the Lord–, well you know — I’m glad he’s on our side! Imagine – saying our refuse collector is just “whining”!!

  119. Sheck, Motel, Harold Camping, Hyam Munkee … there’s no end to your multiple personalities is there?

    As long as you keep telling Maxwell Smart jokes, it’s all good! ;)

  120. Hannah, thanks for checking out how to look up the military service records. I guess that means my plan won’t work since I’m not a relative.

    … that is unless I can convince them I am a relative since we all came from Adam and Eve?

    Paul, thanks for getting the years of service for us; but it looks like only you guys can look this up. Now I’m very curious to know!

  121. Not to change the subject here, but has anybody ever wondered why there seems to be so little discernment at Calvary Chapels? I mean really, when I have tried to talk to them, or they have tried to talk to us or provide counsel, wisdom and discernment just seem to be in such little supply. It is somewhat akin to having a discussion with a liberal. They just keep saying the same lines over and over, but nothing to back it up with that is built on wisdom from the bible.

    I have wondered if the reason might be that once you get discernment, it is too hard to stay around all that goes on with no remorse there?? Anybody have any thoughts?

  122. Me@46: “What exactly do I have to do to get myself booted out of the club?”

    I am not sure where the threshold lies. But I guess it takes being a convicted felon currently serving time in prison before you ever get booted out of the Chuck’s “fellowship” of “like-minded” senior pastors.

    Therefore, viewed from one level, even when granting own Chuck’s assertions, his actions still don’t make a whole lot of sense. If he’s just running a kind of private voluntary club, then why not boot out the bad apples, especially if the club is wholly voluntary to begin with and has no legally binding duties or obligations on anyone’s part?

    It can’t be that difficult to take someone off the list?

    I have to suspect there is something going on behind the scenes that we don’t currently see but which is vitally important to the equation. I guess it is going to require a court trial to thresh it out.

  123. Ignominous, it seems to be the common experience that people who attend are the ones who get booted out of “the club” with a general attitude of apathy from the leaders who just kick you out like an old rag. That’s how it is at Calvary Chapel Olympia and many other places it seems from the testimonies here. Leaders just ban together regardless of the issues :(

  124. Re: Cindy @ 129 said,

    “has anybody ever wondered why there seems to be so little discernment at Calvary Chapels? … They just keep saying the same lines over and over, but nothing to back it up with that is built on wisdom from the bible.”

    In my last CC, I chalked it up to the fact that the pastor had no training other than to work under another CC trained pastor, to read Chuck Smith books and listen to Chuck Smith tapes. He was young and I think he qualifies as a novice. I know he didn’t qualify biblicaly to be a bishop/elder/pastor/deacon. He has a history of anger issues and is known for his manipulations.

    When the pastor showed a lack of discernment, I was not surprised; but I made excuses for him … unwisely, I might add. Though he did study and presented sermons fairly well overall, it became clear that he had an issue with being able to think and respond when asked a question. In other words, he could pull off a speech, but not a conversation. He wasn’t well versed enough in Scriptures to think through an answer, and wasn’t comfortable with saying he didn’t know something … or so it appeared.

    Bottom line, I think the lack of discernment comes from memorizing the answers they learn with their CC starter packets, or from Chuck’s books, and not being able to handle a real life question that isn’t quite so “simple.”

    To add to your point, I heard pastors in training and assistant pastors give out a couple of verses to “handle” 3 hour counseling sessions. And the verses were out of context ta boot! I cringed each time! They were not aware of how shallow it made them look, nor how unhelpful they were. Instead, I heard them brag about how they “gave them the goods!” and looked for pats on their backs.

  125. cindy@131: “Leaders just ban[d] together regardless of the issues”

    There is a very specific term that has been long time in the vocabulary for describing what you called out: clericalism.

    I believe that the Moses Model inherently tends to produce a clericalist mindset.

  126. My observation is that the most efficient way of getting the boot out the door is to express either Emergent or Calvinistic thoughts. That’s the only sure fire and prompt way that I’m aware of, other than that it’s pretty much a good old boys club.

  127. Grateful @ 132

    I think I must have been in the same room with you. LOL! That’s how I would describe most CC counseling sessions.

    Although 35 years ago CC was known for encouraging all of us “to be able to give an answer to those who might ask of the hope that lies within you”, I think that discipline is long past and most CC pastors only regurgitate what they’ve heard others say. That aspect of being good Berean’s is the foremost thing that attracted me out of the Baptist church where I was saved and into Calvary. I loved the fact that we were allowed, and actually strongly encouraged to question everything!

    I don’t mean to paint with such a broad brush, but that’s my general observation.

  128. Re: JonD @ 134 said,

    ” … most efficient way of getting the boot out the door is to express either Emergent or Calvinistic thoughts.”

    One of our CC’s printed in the bulletin, “We reject Calvinism.” Yet, when questioned, they did not reject it, only 2 out of 5 points.

    Of the many stories I know of in my CC, getting booted or gently shoved out the door came from:

    * not communicating blind loyalty to the pastor. That was it.
    * No question would go unpunished.
    * Saying you couldn’t do a certain ministry because it conflicted with the family schedule was to shoot yourself in the foot.
    * Any and all leaders’ decisions had to be obeyed, even if they were clearly wrong.
    * Innocently asking, “To whom are you accountable?” to the pastor
    * Asking why the pastor buys a new car every 2 years?
    * Asking good Berean questions about the Pastor’s preaching on Revelations.
    * In any way making the Pastor feel insecure …

  129. Oh, and…

    * in any way communicating you had any issues with any leaders.
    * If you claimed you forgave someone, you had to not remember it ever happened for it to be real forgiveness. Amnesia was required or booooot ….. (at least in my case, anyway.)

  130. Re: JonD @ 135

    “… that aspect of being good Berean’s is the foremost thing that attracted me out of the Baptist church where I was saved and into Calvary. I loved the fact that we were allowed, and actually strongly encouraged to question everything!”

    That’s good to know they had that at one time.

  131. Cindy- I don’t know if your still there…

    A friend gave me a 3 CD message from John Macarthur called “A call for Discernment” (I think thats the name)

    I listened to it over and over maybe 6 times in one week.
    It changed my perception of everything.
    You can go on http://www.gty.org and burn it for free.

    Personally, I think the reason why there is little discernment is because of the lack of depth of teaching. (maybe just my church).

    I also found out not too long ago that my Pastor had all his messages scripted for him.
    I don’t know if he started out that way, or just got “too busy” ;)

    Yes, very true about Calvanism.
    I once was “bullied” out of a CC for questioning about it.

    Funny, the Pastor once called me a “Berean” before I even knew what it meant….
    When the “Berean” knew too much, she was now a “troublemaker”.

  132. PS..those CD’s were given to me about 8 years ago, which really began my quest for intense studying of God’s Word. Before then it was just about attending church, hearing topical studies, and basically being entertained and having a good time.

  133. Re: Hannah @ 139

    “When the “Berean” knew too much, she was now a “troublemaker”.

    Yup.

    And the fact that you are a woman asking questions wouldn’t go over well in my last CC, either.

  134. JonD@134 …That’s the only sure fire and prompt way that I’m aware of, other than that it’s pretty much a good old boys club.

    This amount to saying that otherwise Chuck is perfectly okay with his “pals” being abusive, malfeasant jerkoffs in every way possible, just so long as they stay out of prison and continue to maintain the appearances.

    In this case, Chuck’s club is a perfect microcosm of clericalism. What a pathetic shame.

  135. PPS! I also think you have to want discernment, or God won’t give it to you.
    I remember this discussion on another blog. There was a lot of different interpretations, just lik the other day we were discussing “Discerning of spirits”, so it does tie into the recognizing of Satans activities.

    It is a very difficult thing to deal with, because IMO not many people have it, so they don’t see things the way some of us here see. And it is not something to boast about, because it is not easy to live with it! It is difficult and makes one feel very alone.
    Thats why I am so thankful for some of the contributors here. So many have it. I was just listening to a message about the parables that Jesus gave, and how he only explained them to believers. I believe it is the same way when God opens our eyes to things that others will not see.
    As isolating as it is, we have to believe we are blessed.

    Alex-What happened to that other radio show you had yesterday?
    I was praying for it and wondered how it went?

  136. Grateful@And the fact that you are a woman asking questions wouldn’t go over well in my last CC, either.

    Bingo! (do people still say this?)
    I was quite a threat to them.
    Especially since my Pastor….well, I can’t give too much away…they may get the Mob after me!
    But he called me other really nice things until…..

    I was able to see through, him and all the others in the inner “circle of trust”.

  137. Grateful 136-137

    I think the word, “brutal” is quite appropriate there — very sad to say it. Sounds like you were part of CC Visalia, alongside some of the rest of us.

    I’m fascinated with the feeling that they feel the need to publicly announce their anathema on Calvinism. There’s that old Christian love thing being so openly on display once again.

    DON’T FREAK OUT HERE — I confess that I am a secure-in-my-beliefs “Calvinist” myself, but I won’t hesitate for one moment to work right alongside anyone who is serving our Lord, and I wouldn’t find any joy smashing other believers in the face with my doctrinal views. I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t always participate with others who held opposing views, but after realizing my tendency towards being a happy little pharisee, I repented. I am now a “re-formed Reformed Christian”! I think Jesus’ statement about “by THIS all men will know that you are my disciples – by your LOVE for one another” pretty well put me in my place.

  138. There. The cat’s out of the bag — I’m going to dinner. LOL
    Later kids!

  139. JonD

    I have Smiths tape on Romans 9 and it is clear he is on both sides of the fence with election, and kind of acknowledges it.

    Have you heard it?

  140. They told me (and others I know who have told me their story) that they wouldn’t meet with them to try to resolve anything unless their husbands were participating with the meeting-which the husbands didn’t want to do. When I asked why we could not meet with just us (as it was an issue between me and a leader in the church) I was told “just because, there is a biblical way to do things and a non-biblical way and we just won’t meet with you and I don’t even want to talk to you.”

    Hannah, your comment, I was able to see through, him and all the others in the inner “circle of trust” ‘ is shocking in how it is actually carried out there. It’s like if you are not part of that group you are a subclass, expendable and of lesser value than a leader. It’s like your worth in God is measured by how much you trust and show allegiance to and obey the leaders. They even told a number of us to just obey your pastor and elders period and no explanation of things was necessary. I was also told by a leader that because we don’t think the same about our faith that there is no reason to ever talk again.

  141. Cindy,

    I think they preferred to have me alone without my husband so they can try and destroy me.
    Also, then I woudl not have a witness and they would

    What about the leader and not thinking the same about your faith??

  142. Cindy@They even told a number of us to just obey your pastor and elders period and no explanation of things was necessary.

    Yes, we are under the authority of the “church”…not Jesus, but all the ungodly leadership.

  143. I was told that the leader had different thoughts about our faith (as in what we believe the bible means and who God is etc), and what friendship means so there was no reason to ever talk to me again because of this. It was meant literally too. To this day and it has been years none of the people involved will talk to me at all. Not even a casual hello.

  144. Re: JonD@ 145

    The older I get the more I find it hard to be as clear as I once was about Calvinism vs. Arminianism, or Covenant vs. Dispensational. I find so much in Scripture that leads one to either side, that I can no longer be dogmatically clear and not have it bother my conscience.

    I’ve also been busy with people and their lives. Since many of them are not in a place to even think about such things, and I’ve not been teaching Bible studies beyond the basics for awhile, I’ve not dedicated time to these subjects much in recent years. I do feel at a disadvantage, at times, as it does affect how one approaches Scripture.

    This brings to mind how hard it must be as a novice, with no real training, to have to try and self-study while running a church. No wonder they often have a hard time holding a conversation about the Scriptures and how they are handling them.

    I knew my theological training didn’t make me mature or godly, it just gave me an opportunity to use the tools I was given. But when I could clearly see my pastor didn’t have the “tools” I knew he was at a great disadvantage. At least I had it all figured out at one time … it’s only the older I am that I know less and less. ;)

  145. Cindy @ 145

    “To this day and it has been years none of the people involved will talk to me at all. Not even a casual hello.”

    That’s just WRONG. Sorry that happened to you.

  146. Hannah @ 149

    “I think they preferred to have me alone without my husband so they can try and destroy me.
    Also, then I woudl not have a witness and they would”

    For some women in our CC, the pastor spoke to their husbands and not really to them. It was as if the women either didn’t have value, or they were just invisible.

    For some women, the pastor made sure their husband wasn’t around to keep witnesses at bay. They were the women the pastor was more intimidated by in our experience. Maybe you just scared him, Hannah?

  147. It’s OK Grateful, just amazed that anybody at all who is a Christian can think that is OK or right at all. Just amazed at how the brainwashing is so extensive that it can even be considered Christian in character in any way at all. That is part of what I mean by such little discernment in Calvary Chapel.

  148. Cindy,

    You mentioned CC Olympia – I’ve visited there a few times through the years. A bunch of times when it was on 4th or 5th in the old church recording studio. I had friends that went there who now go to CC Centralia. I visited a couple of times at the new location a few years back. To the casual visitor/attender things seem good – Another friend went a while and quit when he was told he was not to pray with people who went up front for prayer –
    because he was not on the Prayer Team. This ticked him off, because he had been to a good Bible college 30 plus years ago and was not some novice. Control……….
    Isn’t the #1 or 2 elder there a former attorney? I had heard that Oly was one of the good ones.

  149. Hannah #147 – Thank you – I’ve listened to Chuck’s Thru the Bible series many times through, and I agree with you that he teaches fence-sitting techniques.

    Personally, my style of teaching is to thoroughly show and explain both “sides” of any controversial point of doctrine, and at the same time clearly teach what I believe. Then we can reason together (even passionately) comparing scripture with scripture. I fought against anything Calvinistic for 15 or more years, but (IRONICALLY) it was none other than Bob Grenier who God used to help me finally come to my conclusions.

    Cindy #151 – It’s sad to hear that you experienced what so many of us here have also experienced – having friends and family with whom you’ve enjoyed sweet fellowship suddenly turn on you for no reason, and aren’t allowed to have any contact with you. Certainly not a Christlike approach. Sad.

    Grateful #152 – “At least I had it all figured out at one time…” — me too! LOL

  150. Yes, Tad is an attorney, although, the controlling personality doesn’t seem to come from him from what I have been able to see. (He is the number 2 there). It is a very controlling and rule avid environment.

    I personally believe any believer should be able to go up front and pray with any other believer. To me it is very quenching of the Spirit to be so controlling.

  151. Cindy,

    Do you know the Rankins, or the Witts?

  152. I know Cynthia

  153. JonD, it’s @157, it’s not that they aren’t allowed any contact with me, they believe it is loving and God’s will to have no contact with me. It is brainwashing that a leader there seems to have over people.

  154. It sound like the Amish “shunning” discipline. I don’t find it very loving.

  155. They don’t either when the tables are turned, only if they are the ones doing it. It’s a very double standard. I don’t know that I think anyone capable of empathy could actually treat people this way either.

  156. Cindy@161 – That must be due to some California -vs- Washington way of doing things. Down here the faithful are very clearly TOLD that they’re not allowed any contact with certain people (as deemed by the pastor). For several years, Bob Grenier’s mother in law (and her nearly 100 year old mother!) attended a bible study with me. As soon as “the problem” developed they were immediately forbidden to come back to the study or to allow contact with those of us who he deemed to be infidels.

    Such things just shouldn’t happen.

  157. Jon@164 So many up here in Washington are from California. I moved up in 76. Maybe
    in time the California edge wears off. The shunning thing is so cult -like like the JW’s.

  158. I have met several people who have had that happen here too where people or even the entire congregation was told not to talk to them. I was told I was not allowed to have contact with with certain people or attend certain functions and even told I was not allowed to discuss any details or any whys or anything with anyone. I was basically asked to be a scape goat. I refused to be a scape goat or not share my side. That is simply wrong on every level and deceptive. I simply told the pastor that I didn’t feel he had any right to ask me to lie and he explained I wasn’t lying, merely not saying anything. I did not agree with his “spin” on this and refused to go along with that part. Several people ended up leaving the church over it. I found out at the same time that multiple other people had similar stories to tell from the same CC location. I was no rare case.

  159. I have to say now that CC is not “cult-like”, the way it operates is cultish, period. They may have core true salvation beliefs, but it is definitely run (at least the one I went to and apparently many others from the testimonies here on this site and many other sites) with cult behavior.

  160. Glen / Cindy – That’s precisely why I support Alex and this blog; because these things are happening coast to coast, and should not be happening. The issue is so much larger than Bob Grenier/CCVisalia, or even Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. The lying, the control, the manipulation, and the full range of cultic mentalities are unacceptable within the body of Christ and must be confronted and brought into the light.

    It’s simply unbelievable what is passing as acceptable Christian/church behavior. Unbelievable unless of course you have seen it yourself.

  161. A good church is hard to find – in this area and in this time frame.

  162. JonD @ 164 ….I know the pain of rejection to….After I left CC Visalia, we had a Bible study at our home with about 30 people some from CCV some who didn’t attend church at all. After I officially left Calvary, bob picked a part the Bible study until every single person who attended CCV left. I was heart broken at the time. I just couldn’t believe that a pastor would do this. The last ones that left called me and said that they were told that they couldn’t participate in the youth group leadership where their boys were until they stopped coming to the Bible study at my home. Just another knife in my heart. But you know it made me a tougher person for sure. Now I can careless who likes me and who doesn’t.

  163. Bob’s words were “It’s not Calvary ordained” ……. WHATEVER, lol, No he was right, it was “God ordained” 8)

  164. Tina,

    You are inspiring to me.

  165. Cindy when you say it is cultish, you are right! The hard thing to swallow is that we all were deceived. Oh well, you live and learn. I think Christians are too whimpy sometimes and that’s what attracts evil men to slither into the church. If they knew we all had the attitute that we were on watch and took the stand that this stuff isn’t going to happen in our church, then perhaps they would find a rock to hide under. But WE, God’s people let it happen because WE are weak sheep. Where is the gutts to stand up to the pastor and say, “NO! YOU ARE WRONG!” Our society is asleep and we just want to be comfortable. Let’s not rock the boat, all my friends attend there and hey they have a Starbucks! This is a bunch of bull….we are hearing of men molesting children, abusing their wives, stealing from the church, abusing the people of God for heaven’s sake! (It just fires me up!)

  166. Hannah thanks for your kind words, but it just plain makes me mad.

  167. Tina, that still blows me away when I think about it. When Bob started speaking out against Justin and his study when I confronted him about it, he flat out lied and said that his sermon about the false teachings of a non Calvary sanctioned bible study on Saturday night for the youth was not the same one that the former CCV youth pastor was teaching, it was a totally different Satanic booze fest with the CCV youth.

    “I shouldn’t have read into it and should have just trusted my pastor”, Bob said. I’m so glad that the Lord took us away from that unhealthy man centered church. We like to look back and try to see some good from our participation at CCV, it’s really hard when you think about how we were manipulated into acting like nothing was wrong when we saw our freinds quietly slipping out of the fold, like they never existed. I know many have been saved from peer pressure home wrecking Bob Grenier, because we all decided to stand and speak, instead of quietly going away.

  168. Tina,

    I am still mad after many years.
    The effect the leadership have on the sheep is hard for me to grasp.
    Others were told not to talk with me either and none of them did.
    Not even a call to find out why.
    Just blind obedience.
    The ignoring is what really bothers me.
    Not godly behavior.
    Very hard for me still.

  169. Not Alone,

    When I read your post, I think of all the friendships that were severed with my heathen friends 15 years ago when I accepted Christ, and wonder if I made the right choice :(
    Sometimes I think the heathens are better off. They were more loyal, more compassion, were able to think for themselves rather than be brainwashed.

    We recently visited a church for a month because of a program they were doing that interested us.
    Almost 45 minutes away.
    We get a letter this weekend asking us to give our stocks/investments/property to them. That it is better to give it to the church. I guess it ties in with their new series on giving. Conveniently right before Christman.
    The letter was all about money.
    Not “Welcome to this church. We would like to get to know you”
    No, just give us the money.
    I am so disheartened.
    It is like this with every church we visit.
    Every single one.
    Another sent us a letter the week after we visited…all 4 ways that you can give…

    Please pray for me. I am quite depressed about it all…..

  170. Ya, Not Alone, I’m sure bob hates the fact that we are speaking out…..lol Well, that’s what he gets. He likes to be the center of attention anyway and I want to make sure he get’s all the credit! 8)

  171. Oh Hannah, my heart breaks for you. Maybe I’m not doing the right thing but I don’t give now unless I really feel God telling me to. I just let the bucket go right by and God knows my heart. This is a tough economy right now and I won’t be manipulated to give…I just won’t. Thankfully, where I am now there is no pressure and I like that. I pray that you will find a church where there is freedom.

  172. Hannah @ 176, but then it makes you wonder if they ever really were your friend. There are true friends and those are the ones you want. 8) I can completely relate with you on this to. On the other hand, you be the friend to comfort them when it happens to them. Mark my words, it WILL happen to them….then you be the one to reach out. 8)

  173. Thanks Tina :)

  174. Still I don’t think anyone really knew what happened, and if they did they didn’t want to get involved.
    Most of the people I knew served in the church. They surely did not want to jeapardize their “good standing”.
    I am glad you found a church.
    This town has been taken over by CC’s and CC” wannabees.”

  175. Not Alone@#175 “…we saw our freinds quietly slipping out of the fold, like they never existed.”

    I see you too are a CCV refugee – glad to have you here in the refuse collector. Your last four words sum it all up perfectly – “…like they never existed.” That’s the Calvary method, and as we both know, it’s used very effectively. I’m sure that BG was quite content until recently that in his mind most of us on here “never existed” – not any more “real” to him than characters in a bad dream. I wonder if he’s awake yet, and realizes that we’re not just such characters.

    Visalia’s a small town, so we probably know each other, at least by name. Keep up the good fight!

    Hannah — Tina is so right when she says in #180 – “it will happen to them”. When I left CCV in 1994, I tried to “sound the alarm” to dozens of friends and family, all to no avail (at the time). Since then however I have been in contact with many who left since then, all having experienced the same “tried and tested” CCV methodology.

    Even this weekend, I’ve been in contact with old friends who have attended CCs around the country and who see my postings on FB regarding Alex’s interview and this blog. Some are fresh victims of CC abuse and are now coming around. Hang in there Hannah. It will happen to most of them eventually, and you can be there for them.

  176. Hannah @ 182

    “This town has been taken over by CC’s and CC” wannabees.”

    I don’t want to see any church mimicking the lack of accountability in leadership, and/or the running the church like a dictator who needs to have control.

    I don’t mind church’s mimicking the way CC’s originally fit the culture around them. Being culturally relevant seems valuable for some church’s to have, in the same way that I think it’s valuable that some church’s are not swayed by the culture. They reach different people and solve different problems. Imo.

  177. JonD @ 183

    “…like they never existed”

    Those of you from CCV experienced Bob telling people to shun you. That’s blatant.

    In my case, it was a mixture of some blatant calls for shunning and lots of subtle manipulations to disassociate. You couldn’t prove you were told not to associate with someone, but you knew the consequences if you did.

    Again, the subtle approach -in some ways- is more insidious. It can be even more damaging because it takes longer to wake up and face it when you don’t have concrete evidence.

  178. JonD @ 168

    “That’s precisely why I support Alex and this blog; because these things are happening coast to coast, and should not be happening. The issue is so much larger than Bob Grenier/CCVisalia, or even Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa”

    I want to use this quote to address an often heard response. When it’s brought up that these issues are systemic, there is an understandable reaction of some saying they think there are lots of good CC’s and only a few bad ones.

    My response:

    1. Who has the actual count?

    2. Because I have heard so many stories similar to mine from the East coast to the West coast, and many points in-between, then read many more on this blog, as well as elsewhere on the internet, I suspect this is not just limited to the ones I’ve heard about. What would be the odds that I have all the stories; which leads me to believe that many are already corrupted.

    3. When we take an honest look at how having all the power with no accountability -built into into the Moses Model leadership style of CC- can corrupt any good man, then it appears to me to be more likely that a church bearing the CC moniker (Dove) is somewhere along the road of corruption. Whether it’s in the beginning or middle or all the way to a “Bob Grenier state” may not be readily knowable; but give it some time and check with those who’ve left. As far as I know, it’s just not possible to not eventually become corrupt without accountability.

    4. When I read the CC distinctives, and learn how the pastors were “trained”, I also believe that the problems in the DNA of CC are passing on through the indoctrination process used for a pastor to become affiliated with CC. That leads me to have a healthy skepticism that there are a bunch of “good” ones out there. Imo, in order for the CC pastors to resist the faulty parts of the DNA, they’d have to resist much of their indoctrination. Have some done this? Dunno? Possible, but not really practical.

    5. The fact that many novices recieve affiliation also sets up sincere men to fail, and it’s easier to understand how the novices would just do as they are told, and think as they are told. Plus, a novice (especially untrained) is more likely to be insecure and be more controlling as a result.

    6. So between the indoctrination to become affiliated, the “CC starter kits,” and the CC pastor the newly affiliated have to spend time with, along with the pastor conferences they have to attend, there seems to be a great deal of pressure for these pastors to conform to the unhealthy CC way. Since that CC way includes the obvious Moses Model leadership style without accountability, along with how to “handle” people, it comes across as a no brainer to me that the issues are not only systemic, but will continue to be without serious intervention … frankly, a miracle.

    Could I be wrong? Yes. But from where I stand it doesn’t look likely.

  179. Grateful,
    Good observations.
    There was less than a year after salvation that my ex Pastor was in ministry.
    Then about another year or so till he started his own CC.
    Hardly enough time, without any formal education.
    More of the “cool” factor and personality that draws the crowds.
    When you would mention my church it was usually, “Isn’t Pastor___ great”?
    People really like him. I understand it because I was enamored myself.

    The lack of formal education bothers me because you would not want to go to a Dr. who does not have a formal education, or any other profession. Why is it any different for a Pastor?
    There seems to be little investment, and much return (salery and benfits).
    The sermons were very shallow and the Pastor defended this by letting everyone know that this church is for new believers and when people grow, they move on. That was not hidden.

  180. The scary part is when you talk with these pastors and leaders, (at least the ones we talked to at Calvary Chapel Olympia) it isn’t that they are trying to be mean, they seem to truly believe they are being godly and doing what is holy and right in treating you this way. They don’t see anything wrong with their behavior at all. They really do believe you are the problem and they are part of God’s divine plan in treating you this way for your good.

    And Glen @156, your comment, “I had heard that Oly was one of the good ones”; it isn’t. There are a lot of good people who go there who have no idea what really goes on behind the scenes. Actually, when you talk to people who have been there and left, their usual response is thinking most CC’s are no where near as bad with the leadership as Calvary Chapel Olympia. I had thought CC Centralia was possibly the only one around here that was possibly not this way from all I have heard from the many walking wounded. The abuse that goes on from Calvary Chapel Olympia is allowed to go without accountability and the leaders are left in place or even promoted without having to reconcile or repent or even make an attempt to make things right, but it truly seems to be done with clear consciences on their part, believing they are doing right.

  181. So, I know the link to Bob’s website was posted waaay up at the top, but it’s hilarious enough that I have to comment on it. He’s riding a scooter. Not a motorcycle, but a *scooter*. He’s not riding it in the street. He’s riding it in an empty parking lot. Did he think that was cool? That it would look good on his website? “Hey! I’m a pastor. Let’s go out into the parking lot and take some pictures of me on my scooter. That will really pull my website together.”

    What does riding a scooter have to do with being a pastor? Why would you have that picture as the main picture of your website? Is it a way of expressing his ministry philosophy? He’s a pastor, but he’d rather ride around in circles in his church’s empty parking lot?

    In general, what’s up with CC pastors an two-wheeled vehicles? Skip Heitzig centered his website around his motorcycle. That child-molesting “pastor” who’s wife committed suicide had posted a bunch of pictures of himself and his motorcycle if I recall correctly. I know several of the pastors who post on CC are into motorcycles. And I think there are other examples, but I just can’t remember them right now.

    It’s weird and cheesy to see loser “pastors” fixate on motorcycles or, in Bob’s case, scooters.

  182. j2-

    My last got lost in cyberspace.
    If you look on his twitter, the scooter is there without him on it.
    I think it is part of the “cool” factor.

    Also, that photo is when you search for Bob Grenierdotcom
    It leads you to Visalia, so with his twitter account, they are the 1st 3 on a serach for his name. That puts this blog down 3rd on the list.

    The scooter I think may appeal to the 20-30 crowd all the churches want to draw in.
    Makes a middle aged man more approachable to these youngsters.

  183. Cindy@ They don’t see anything wrong with their behavior at all. They really do believe you are the problem and they are part of God’s divine plan in treating you this way for your good.

    Exactly…..
    For our good…right…..

  184. That puts this blog down 3rd on the list.

    I meant 4th.

  185. From BG’s website”

    “The Lord saved me on Feb 6th, 1973, and I entered full time ministry on Feb 12th, 1973, becoming part of the “Shiloh Ministry”, which had grown out of Calvary Chapel in Southern California.”

    Saved on the 6th, 6 days later full time ministry?
    Is that a typo?

  186. Hannah – I think it was 1978 that Bob G. went to be part of the Shiloh Ministry. Weird to think he was part of that. Looking back, I think the “hippie” Christians were really “out there”. And alot were horrible with women. That is why I would agree that Bob’s wife Gayle probably is “brainwashed”, and that’s why she is not seeing her son or grandkids. Hippie Christians adopted the “woman submit” issue heavily. Women had to know their place in the communes and do the “women’s work” (clean the toilets, etc.) . It’s gross to me how CC supports this issue the way they do. Amazing how all the liberal freewheeling Bob Dylan loving hippies could turn and be so fundamentalist – conservative. Talk about a flip flop — So many Pastors love to go after the young, uneducated especially, because they are easily swayed and brainwashed. I remember many of the hippie Chrisians back then from So. Cal. that didn’t want to ever “witness” on college campuses because they had little “success” and were “challenged” too much. To think Alex and his brothers had these two fanatical fundamentalists raising them – mixed with abuse – what a nightmare—-

  187. Sue,

    I would think BG would change the year on his website now!
    What a big mistake if in fact it was 5 years later!
    I always wonder about those hippies who went on to become CEO’s….
    You said “Hippie Christians”…did they also do drugs?
    Was that considered OK?
    I just missed that generation by a few years.

  188. I’m shocked and horrified that you would come out after all these many years and try to bring your step-father who supported you, who knows how long after you turned 18 and got your face slapped, down. Why didn’t you do that 20 years ago?

    It seems to me the problems is yours. You’re the one hanging on to the past like a dog with a bone. The Apostle Paul said to forget the past and look forward. You’re yanking out and hanging on to the past and trying to take people down with you. What purpose does that serve? If your dad is as bad as you say he is, the Lord will deal with him. Where is it your business to bring the entire Internet world into your childhood and in the process bring aspersions on Calvary Chapel. They’re having enough problems with the infiltration of the Emergent church, and Chuck sitting on the same podium as Rick Warren and calling him his friend. Chuck is an old man and should have retired years ago and would have if there weren’t some family problems.

    I have a real problem with people like you who come around many years after the fact. Yes, your dad probably would have gotten arrested and you and your brothers would have sat in some county facility. Discipline has changed through the years and children haven’t turned out the better for it. You said he didn’t bother you from 5 to 10 years old. What happened when you turned 10 that caused him to lose his temper at you?

    In any case, you have no business airing your dirty laundry in front of the whole world 20 years or more after the fact. Matthew 18 is a little late. It’s up to you to forgive and get a life!

  189. Marianne:

    I’m curious and maybe you can help me understand something in regards to the abuse I endured.

    You asked the question of Alex “what happened when you turned 10 that caused him to lose his temper at you?”

    What do you think I did that caused Bob Grenier to molest me? I was beaten by him as well so maybe you could offer some insight into our whole familial situation.

  190. Wow! Marianne, that is just downright shocking and ignorant and a twist of the interpretation of scripture about what not being stuck in your past is referring to.

    What kind of person would ask someone what they did that made them deserve to be treated with cruelty? I hope you don’t ever have to work in a rape crisis center or work with anyone who has ever seen true abuse!

    The point of this blog too is dealing with current UNREPENTED sin. Paul never asked anyone to move on from a point of an unrepentant heart, but rather to REPENT and then move forward. Alex is asking Bob to be accountable for sin that was never addressed and for the way he CURRENTLY treats people.

    As to Calvary Chapel having enough to deal with about having shared the stage with Rick Warren etc, Calvary should address those things too. Leaders are accountable for unwise decisions, even if the way to address it is to acknowledge the wrongness of it and clarify, then continue on walking with new found wisdom.

    We’re not talking about a discipline having changed situation here either. That form of discipline was never acceptable and unwise or bad leadership even Christ called out and rebuked publicly. Read your bible before you come on with such strong accusations.

  191. Marianne said, “I’m shocked and horrified that you would come out after all these many years and try to bring your step-father who supported you, who knows how long after you turned 18 and got your face slapped, down. Why didn’t you do that 20 years ago?”

    I confronted Bob Grenier privately about the same day he was being abusive to my brother Paul and accusing Paul of stealing 10 of Bob’s Ambien sleeping pills. My physical abuse stopped about 13-14 years before I confronted it with Bob and his Elders the first time around. Paul’s abuse was still very recent and ongoing in a form when I began confronting Bob.

    Marianne said, “It seems to me the problems is yours. You’re the one hanging on to the past like a dog with a bone.”

    The Problem is Bob’s sin and continual lying about it and his continual abuses, to this moment. Ephesians 5:11, 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Timothy 5:19-22, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, Matthew 18, etc etc. Bob needs to confess, repent and seek reconciliation “Leave your gift at the altar”…etc etc. Bob Grenier is disqualified from ministry. There is nothing “Past” about Bob Grenier’s lying and unrepentance, it is ongoing.

    Marianne said, “The Apostle Paul said to forget the past and look forward. You’re yanking out and hanging on to the past and trying to take people down with you. What purpose does that serve?”

    Proof Texts please (that means please list the specific Scriptures you are referring to.

    Marianne said, “If your dad is as bad as you say he is, the Lord will deal with him.”

    God is dealing with Bob Grenier. He’s lost half his church, giving is way down, people in the Visalia Community and elsewhere are being warned about his abuse and corruption and he is being confronted all the time by people. His sin is finding him out.

    Marianne said, “Where is it your business to bring the entire Internet world into your childhood and in the process bring aspersions on Calvary Chapel. They’re having enough problems with the infiltration of the Emergent church, and Chuck sitting on the same podium as Rick Warren and calling him his friend. Chuck is an old man and should have retired years ago and would have if there weren’t some family problems.”

    Don’t even know where to begin on this one….

    Marianne said, “I have a real problem with people like you who come around many years after the fact. Yes, your dad probably would have gotten arrested and you and your brothers would have sat in some county facility. Discipline has changed through the years and children haven’t turned out the better for it. You said he didn’t bother you from 5 to 10 years old. What happened when you turned 10 that caused him to lose his temper at you?”

    No, I said the abuse was less severe, more mild from 5 to 10 and less frequent, mostly in the form of hard spankings, but he did cross the line at times and he did lose his temper at times and crossed the lines into mild abuse. Listen to it again.

    Marianne said, “In any case, you have no business airing your dirty laundry in front of the whole world 20 years or more after the fact. Matthew 18 is a little late. It’s up to you to forgive and get a life!”

    I have followed the Matthew 18 process beginning 7 years ago. It’s taken a long time to get to this point and partly due to Calvary Chapel not handling things Scripturally (or legally).

    And, I do have “business” doing it:

    Ephesians 5:11
    1 Timothy 5:19-22
    …and all the other verses I cited above, and many more.

    You really should listen to the interview again (all the way through) and read the entire blog, you seem to be misinformed or ill-informed and speaking from ignorance about what I’ve done, when, the step by step process, that it’s not just about me it’s to help many others, etc etc etc.

    You probably (like many) skim, come to a conclusion that fits your bias and offer ill-thought-out critiques that aren’t based in the facts of this situation or in Scripture.

  192. marriane:

    You know nothing about Chuck
    You know nothing about his friendship with Warren
    You know nothing about the reasons why he is still in the pulpit and leader of CCCM
    You know nothing about abuse and to blithly dismiss Paul and Alex’s disciipline as symtomatic and typical of the 60’s is pure crap
    You know nothing of scriture and to the extent you spout on it, keep it to yourself
    We could care less what you have a real problem with

    Now go away

  193. My abuse and Geoff’s was the most intense in the mid to late 80’s and 1990-91 range.

    Paul’s abuse was in the late 90’s. That ain’t that long ago, Marianne.

    Sometimes it takes time to understand what happened to you, how wrong it was, that it’s not your fault that abuse occurred and that it’s not OK that the Abuser did it and gets away with it, etc…especially when the Abuser keeps hurting you and others by his actions and his continual lying.

  194. Marianne @ 196

    You are typical of the those who are still under the CC teaching. I will pray that God opens your eye’s as he has done with so many on this site (and others) that have witnessed the abuse in CC and come out of it. ( mostly with legitimate anger and hurt ) I can tell you this from experience ( 8 years leading worship with CC’s in las vegas ) you are being deceived!!!
    If you read God’s word and compare it to the example of leadership and that which is being taught on CC as the guide for true believers in Jesus Christ, you will find that they don’t line up! That is to say: CC pastors DO NOT follow God’s word! They read through it ( so did the pharisees ) they teach it ( so did the pharisees) they tell you, you are to obey it ( so did the pharisees ) but CC pastors DO NOT!!! Jesus goes over this again and again and again. You are being deceived!!! It’s easy to spot the sheep who are still following a man’s system of religion compared to one who hears the voice of Jesus and follows it.

  195. Re: Paul @ 197

    You were very gracious!

  196. For all of you who are lurking and reading this blog actively, and consider yourselves careful thinkers, I recommend a book to read. It is called The Last Man on Earth, by Os Guinness. Os is probably one of the most careful social critics of our day. He is no lightweight. You will find the premise of the book very interesting and quite sobering. Read it with care.

    There is a potential danger with this blog that we must be aware of. By exposing hypocrisy and sin in the highest levels of leadership, a tendency to feed a growing scepticism could result. You hear it in many of the comments on here already. People who have been burned want very little to do with the organized church. If this blog is ever successful in helping to restore integrity within some faultering CCs, then it must always point to a victorious Savior who is building his kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus is building his Church, and the gates of Hell (scepticism and all other forms of disbelief) will not prevail against it.

    There is a massive weakness within the Western Church. We don’t think. We feel. That is going to be a constant thorn in our sides if we do not build on sound doctrine/creeds/beliefs that inform our emotions. We are often reactionaries; extremists. We see conspiracies on the one hand, or are completely indifferent to wrongdoing on the other. Let’s pray that we will not be manipulated so easily. Let’s do as Tina Jenkins suggests and stop being so wimpish and stand our ground with holy boldness. But let us think, and think deeply with the mind of Christ, so we can stand approved by him and no other.

    Read the book by Guinness, and read the Book!

  197. WA-

    I think it’s called “The Last Christian on earth”
    Checked it out on Amazon. Will check it out further.
    I was given a book by him from a family member (who is Catholic) just about the time I was saved and found it a few yrs ago (threw it out) and never read it because I didn’t think he was a believer and at that time I was quite fanatical.

  198. I like this..
    Maybe We can have a book study and Alex can make a thread on the book..

    “Interestingly, God’s remedy for Elijah’s depression was not a refresher course in theology but food and sleep… Before God spoke to him at all, Elijah was fed twice and given a good chance to sleep. Only then, and very gently, did God confront him with his error. This is always God’s way. Having made us as human beings, He respects our humanness and treats us with integrity. That is, He treats us true to the truth of who we are. It is human beings and not God who have made spirituality impractical.”
    ― Os Guinness, God in the Dark: The Assurance of Faith Beyond a Shadow of Doubt

  199. Thanks Hannah. I messed up the title.

    I find it funny that you threw out Os Guinness as a non-believer. He was a missionary kid in China. Studied under Francis Schaeffer, and very used by God in influencial circles of power. He is a very good example of a moderating voice in a highly emotionally charged religious world. Thanks for the quote.

  200. Paul you did nothing to deserve that! My heart breaks for you. More than anything else on this blog, you and your brothers did absolutely nothing to deserve all this crap. Why didn’t those adults who knew all of this stuff was going on stand up for you? Why? This horor came at the hands of not only a pastor but your father. He was supposed to love you and cherish you, it just makes me cry.

  201. Paul you were always one of my favorites 8) in my class! Love you my sweet brother in Christ!

  202. Tina…I wish we had known about the child abuse back in the 90’s when Bob was really being challenged. We backed away thinking our efforts would split the local church but had we known that the boys were being hit regularly, Bob would never have been left alone. I am amazed it is this hard to get a hearing about this brute of a man. He will get what is coming to him. Paul, Alex, and Geoff have suffered alone long enough.

  203. WA-

    I was not even a year into my salvation, and remember I was already being brainwashed into the CC “mode. ;). I had no idea who he was. I was also told not to read Watchmann Nee and I have gotten a lot out of his books.

    I

  204. I…also have read Francis Schaeffers books.
    Maybe it was not the right time to read Os’ books.
    I am looking forward to getting it. Will order a few.

    Tina,

    This whole situation is very disturbing. I feel like an outsider in that I do not know any odf you personally, but I do share your pain and hurt.

  205. Wide@210 – I’ve thought that same thing many times since learning of the abuse that was taking place – secretly, but right before us. Had we only known… we were outraged over the financial misdeeds, and the congregational & staff abuses, but we didn’t realize the full extent of his abuses. It would certainly have made a difference since the “revered” statute of limitations would not have been an issue.

    I can only begin to imagine the reaction if a VPD officer had served a warrant for his arrest during a Sunday morning — Bob Grenier in handcuffs — what a sight that would have been. Maybe ABC30 will cover the even when the IRS serves their warrants and raids the church offices! LOL – I might even watch channel 47 news THAT night.

    How different things would have been if only some of us on the outside the “official” leadership would have known…

    VICTIMS OF ABUSE – Please speak out and tell your story to people that you trust. If you don’t get action, and they don’t help you, then reach out further until you do get the help you need and deserve.

  206. Re: JonD @ 145

    “Sounds like you were part of CC Visalia, alongside some of the rest of us.”

    No, I wasn’t there; but the more I read about Bob Grenier, the more I wonder if my last CC pastor is a Bob Grenier in training?

    I’ve also thought a lot more about his kids who’ve mentioned how God tells their dad every time they do anything wrong. They are convinced their dad has a spiritual gift of reading their minds.

    I figure it’s just a parent who knows what their child is up to. But to work at convincing your kids that God rats them out to Dad through a spiritual gift just seems wrong at some level. Having a parent whose good at figuring you out is one thing, but a spiritual gift seems to be another.

  207. I was thinking of the abuse that Alex and Paul take from posters who either don’t want to understand the facts of their case, or haven’t done their homework, yet. (Not to be confused with people who post with sincere questions, or honest disagreements.) When I found a list of normal words used in abusive ways I recognized that these are the words I see used against Alex, especially, and figure many of us can relate to having heard this language directed at us, as well.

    The Language of Abusive Churches and Groups –by Bill Newcomer

    Please read this first: This list is a compilation of words and phrases used by abusive churches and religious groups. Please note that this list is not about how these words and phrases may be properly used, but it is about how these words and phrases are misused by abusers to manipulate and control in an un-Biblical manner. How does your church or group use these words and phrases?

    *1. Angry: What a person is deemed to be when they tell the truth about something that has happened. Because you are “angry” and have a “bitter spirit” your legitimate concerns and issues can be written off and ignored. After all, “you are the one with the problem”, not the actual offender, especially if the offender is a pastor or elder.

    *2. A Bitter spirit (variation “Don’t be bitter”): (1) The charge made against a person because that person still stands by what they first said. (2) Former members who say anything negative about the church or group are charged with having “a bitter spirit”, so what they say is not given any credibility and ignored even though it is factually true. (3) “Don’t be bitter.” Said by the truly unkind in order to deeply wound, for (spiritually abused) survivors aren’t bitter–we just hurt… a lot! Said to shame, usually in a very public venue and/or in front of other kind people or, worst of all, in front of the “Undecideds” who, upon hearing this condemnation, decide that yes, the (spiritually abused) survivors are indeed “bitter”, when all we are doing is hurting… a lot! frown.gif

    *3. Divisive: (1) What a person is called because some people actually realized what that person said was the truth so the church is split. (2) A term used of someone who doesn’t swallow the party-line hook, line, and sinker. See “Apostate”.

    *4. A Family matter: When the church leadership doesn’t want the embarrassment of public disclosure in the community at large regarding a scandal in the church, that scandal becomes a “family matter” and is not to be discussed with people outside of the church or group. That the community at large has a vital and legitimate interest in the matter is ignored, even when the matter involves wrong-doing such as criminal sexual conduct, child or wife abuse, a suspicious death and so on. In such cases the primary reason for something to be “a family matter” is so the leadership or church can “save face”. See also “Tell it not in Gath”.

  208. Cont …

    *5. “Because I’m the pastor, that’s why!” (Variation: “May I remind you I am the pastor!”) “How dare you doubt me!” “Are you questioning my authority?” “Don’t be a troublemaker.” “Keep the peace.” “Submit to your elder.”

    This type of thinking is a symptom of living under leadership that legislates and demands obedience to their authority. It rests upon a false basis for authority. The sole basis on which they grasped this authority was because of their rank as ministers alone. In other words, their authority was NOT founded on the fact that they were wise, discerning and true. It was based solely in the fact that they were in charge.

    In the new covenant, we see that Jesus established a new basis of authority. It was no longer age, gender, or race. It is now based on the evidence of the Holy Spirit within you. Attributes like maturity, wisdom, genuine holiness, and real knowledge are required in order to evidence Jesus’ brand of authority. “Because I said so” does not work anymore. “Because I’m the pastor” does not cut it. So if my basis for authority is solely that I hold an office, I have a false basis for authority.

    We do not have authority in God’s eyes simply because we are named the pastor, the elder, or the chairman. We are going to have to speak the truth to have real authority. We are going to have to be sensitive to the Spirit to have authority. We are going to have to be wise, and seek to know and say what God says clearly and accurately.” (Excerpts from the book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”.) (See also “Touch not the Lord’s anointed.”)

  209. *6. We are a “nondenominational” church: So we’re not accountable to anyone and if you don’t like the way we run roughshod over you and your family, that’s tough. After all you need to be “submissive” and “accountable”. Also see “We are an independent church”.

    I found “Battered Sheep” linked on the Provender Blog (very helpful site: http://pureprovender.blogspot.com/ )

    The excerpts were found here @ Battered Sheep: http://www.batteredsheep.com/church-speak.html

    There’s more and worth a look if these terms have been used on you.

  210. one in moderation …

  211. Wow Grateful,

    To think I had to be a heathen, then get saved, then endure abuse..to even “get” what you posted!
    What a journey!

  212. 213, I know from your previous comments it is not your heart for vengeance, but for right to come out, that’s why I am stating this for those who haven’t read here long. It’s not about laughing or taking pleasure in seeing reckoning play out. We always want a brother to be sorrowful unto repentance and repentance is the goal. However we are also aware some are not brothers, but are wolves in sheep’s clothing and need to be dealt with.

    Proverbs 17:15
    Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent— both are detestable to the Lord.

    Provers 18:3-5: 3 Doing wrong leads to disgrace,
    and scandalous behavior brings contempt.

    4 Wise words are like deep waters;
    wisdom flows from the wise like a bubbling brook.

    5 It is not right to acquit the guilty
    or deny justice to the innocent.

  213. How our Lord is going to remove this is His work, and I am praying He does it soon. When the trash stinks in your kitchen, you take it out. Lord, take out this trash that CCV has made!

  214. Grateful that Phil did the interview – well done, Alex.

    Interesting to me that on BG’s new web page, Shiloh seems to have morphed into a Eugene CC church. After Shiloh, did he pastor an actual CC in Eugene?

    Hang in there, Alex & brothers!

  215. Hannah @ 211 You share in my pain because we are the body of Christ. We all share each others pain and we should be there to support and find justice for one another. What is happening in our churches today grieves me.

  216. Hannah@219 – LOL I am not laughing at you but with you. Your statement is truer than you will ever know.

    WA@204 – Well stated. It is the reason that I would strongly encourage those with the gifts of teaching and leading to begin doing so. Yes, we must stand against the evil of our day. But we must not fail to recognize that the best defense for the sheep is to feed them well. Ninja sheep of Christ – a little hyperbole, you get the point.

    Grateful – The book sounds like it would be a good companion book to Dr. Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults”. He addresses similar personlity characteristics within false religions.

  217. Cindy@220 – Thank you! You are quite correct. I seek justice and correction, but not vengeance.

  218. RFTB @ 224 “Ninja sheep of Christ”…. I like it! 8)

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