Jul 192012
 

Is Calvary Chapel becoming an "official" Denomination with a separate Board (separate from CC Costa Mesa) made up of "4 to 5" CC Senior Pastor Big wigs?

Is Calvary Chapel going to become an “official” Denomination and ditch the “we’re a non-denomination” ruse?

Sources are telling me that CCOF (Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship or Calvary Chapel Office of Fellowship) the publicly perceived “accountability arm” and CC License and Dove doler outer that has Chuck Smith as President and close ties to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa…is no more. “Dissolved” is the word they used.

I’ve sent correspondence to Brian Brodersen, Greg Laurie and some others to get confirmation. I might even call Chuck Smith at his home, but I think he’s screening his calls now :smile:

This story is getting very interesting. It seems the power struggle is intensifying, right when we get the news that Chuck’s Magic Jesus Powers have defeated the cancer within his body. The devil doesn’t stand a chance! I think Chuck might just have to be assimilated/taken up to heaven or whatever much like Elijah or Enoch…because he sure won’t die fast enough for some in CC Land who want to take over.

The word from sources is this: A Board, separate from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, has formed…and “it” will become the Official Calvary Chapel Denomination. The Board includes Greg Laurie, Skip Heitzig and a total of “4 to 5″ CC Big Wigs.

According to sources, CCCM will be a separate CC with no power over the new Denom. It will be just another Calvary Chapel…and sources say Brian and Cheryl Brodersen get Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa…but not until Chuck croaks (or is assimilated/taken up to heaven in a chariot…though nowadays, it will probably be a nice cadillac like the one he was given by a non-member member…oh wait, it was a member, CCCM has membership…it’s all the other CC’s that don’t. Sorry, I get confused sometimes).

Brian Brodersen, however, is a little chippy about all this (according to the same sources)…and has already launched the Calvary Church Planting Network which seems to be doling out Doves left and right, but under the authority of CCOF and CCCM according to its website.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out…and how soon the “official” word from Costa Mecca comes down from on high.

Chuck Smith, Brian Brodersen, Greg Laurie, Skip “I Skip My Fiduciary Responsibility and Telling the Truth” Heitzig…what say you gentle souls? What the heck is going on in Camp Calvary Chapel?

 Posted by at 10:42 am

  263 Responses to “Is Calvary Chapel becoming an “official” Denomination? Did CCOF “dissolve” so a new Board made up of Greg Laurie, Skip Heitzig and a few other Big CCSP’s can take over the “official” Calvary Chapel Denom?”

  1. Big Wigs? Raul Ries is a pretty big wig – shouldn’t he be on there? He is tight with Greg and Skip.

  2. Ron, it’ll be interesting to find out who the other Big Guys are. Raul is certainly a Big Guy, Mike McIntosh is a Big Guy and of course Bob Coy.

  3. Oh, fooey … there goes my hope for Calvary Chapel to institute financial accountability for CC pastors.

    Skip Heitzig’s well-documented run around the purpose of having a board (secret Christmas Eve meetings without all in attendance in order to manipulate the system, as well as the usual stacking one’s board with old buddies, i.e. Gino Geraci, et al …. in order to get what he wanted;) not to mention his ill-advised, unwise, unloving, lack of integrity, if not illegal use of the church’s resources/money. (@ CCAlbuquerque as well as CCOcean Hills, I believe is the name.)

    How can a guy like this be in charge of turning CC into an actual denomination? Since there’s not been a repentance and restitution on the part of Heitzig, this ensures that the new denom will not have financial accountability measures, nor that Boards or Elders will be empowered to hold a CC pastor accountable in order to protect the sheep (which is the actual job of elders as stated in Acts when Paul charged the elders with this job: PROTECT THE SHEEP.)

    I WANT to be hopeful about this step to become a denomination, but what good will it do if accountability for pastors is not instituted?

  4. What? No Ed Taylor?

  5. Possibly the funniest article on here. Thanks for the laugh Alex.

    I know Raul, Dave Rosales, and a few others are manipulating their way to control the top. This infantile, power-hungry group of narcissist will finally get to implement their system wide control of CC’s.

    Nothing makes me happier than seeing the foxes put in charge of the hen house.

    Hysterical!

  6. Thanks PJay :smile;

    Ya, it’ll be interesting to see who tho other few dudes are on there.

  7. Still not word back from CCCM, but other media are asking the same questions now.

  8. If CC becomes a denomination, I am wondering if each individual CC will have the option to “opt in” or “opt out” of the newly formed denomination. And if they choose to “opt out” will they be forced to change their name? And if they are able to keep their name and dove symbol how will the average CC attender know which ones are independent and which ones are part of the new denomination?

  9. If any of this is true,then we will see a break up of cc.I know for a fact there is a anti denominational mentality among its pastors.Chuck Smiths quote words …..lets be organized but not to organized……The betrayal of his principles of ministry will cause a rebellion.The pastor of my former cc is anti denominational to the hilt.The man stated several times if things got to stupid in Costa Mesa he would pull the church out.But who knows that was years ago,idolatry clouds the judgement of pastor and laymen alike. P.S Bless you ALEX

  10. The really ironic thing is, if CC in not a denomination already why would someone say they are “pulling out”? What exactly are they pulling out of?

  11. is it possible that the multitudinous CC’s will have to choose which CC Denom they will be a part of, BB’s or GL’s?
    is this the beginning of at least a two way split?
    -mike

  12. blessed by god,
    my former pastor is know to have intimated his desire to separate from CC after the death of CS. not sure if it’s true now, but it was 20yrs ago.
    -mike

  13. I remember a pastor I was working under years ago said that he and other CC pastors on some email list will leave CC if BB is the “head”. That’s hearsay of hearsay, but nevertheless, that’s what he told me. So take from it what you want.

  14. The sad point of this most of the laymen in cc are in the the dark about this.Only a few know anything about the potato state pervert scandal if anything.The 2 cc i served in were family and child friendly…….home schooling an so forth. I wonder what would be the reaction from the mothers if they were made aware of this.My experience has been if your not on the list then your not told anything . The safety of of the little ones is our top priority . I was a sunday school teacher for years and I have had young adults walk up to me and say hey I got saved in your class …..wow ! Jesus loves all the little children ……..sorry I went of track for this discusion but when I am out and bout and I see all those little one have a fun time and naive , then I see whats happening it just breaks my heart.

  15. Yikes. I already left Calvary as my ‘home church’ and pretty much just visit now on holidays with family.

    If they go straight up denomination I think I will pull out entirely. I kinda figured they were headed that way…but out of respect for family I still attended on holidays up to this point.

  16. Yeah I think Calvary is a sinking ship, better to get off now. I’m sure there are some that have not apostasized the way Calvary Montebello, Diamond Springs and such but why be associated with an incresingly falling away organization. They once stood against the emergents and Rick Warren, now they hold hands with him.

  17. Alex, any word yet on who else is going to be considered and “elder” in running CC?

    Is there anyone in the running who is not a fox? If not, then this should seriously affect our discussions about whether or not CC has a systemic problem.

  18. alex et.al.
    i wonder how many former cc people will be lured back if CC accepts calvinist/reformed theology pastors. we may see a CC version of the RCC “Come Home…” marketing campaign. what do you think?
    -mike

  19. the latest from cccm/ccof/cca/ whatever…

    can you say “non-denomination-denomination”

    Dear Pastor,

    As you know, last week Pastor Chuck sent out an email to the Calvary Chapel affiliates throughout the world briefly explaining the changes he has made concerning the movement. This is a follow-up email to try to fill in some of the details. While there is still much to be worked out, the following is basically what has changed.

    CCOF is being dissolved and a new plan has been established. Chuck has asked a group of men that have been with him for many years to take over the oversight of the movement. The name is “Calvary Chapel Association” or CCA. There will no longer be a central headquarters or anything like that. The leadership of the movement has been regionalized throughout the United States. Soon, we hope to get working on the rest of the world and set it up with regional leadership as the states, but that will take a little more time.
    The regions of the country are broken up mostly by state boundaries, with a few exceptions which will be cleared up on the new website. The names of the regions and states which they will cover are listed below. Each region has a leader of a team. The leader is listed and his team members are listed as well.

    Northeast: New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Washington DC
    Leader – Joe Focht
    Lloyd Pulley
    Randy Cahill
    Ken Graves
    Deep South: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia
    Leader – Sandy Adams
    Troy Warner
    Paul Lester
    John Pillivant
    Jerry McAnulty
    Mark Kirk
    John Hoppe
    Florida
    Leader – Malcolm Wild
    Bob Coy
    Danny Hodges
    Gib Allen
    Jim Gallagher
    Kent Nottingham

    Mid- West Great Lakes Area: Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin
    Leader: Bill Goodrich
    Steve Miller
    Ed Gaines
    Central Region: Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas
    Leader: Jim Stewart
    Dwight Douville
    Wes Denham
    Chris Hess

    Southwest: Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma
    Leader – Skip Heitzig
    Robert Furrow
    Charlie Flores
    Mark Martin
    Bill Gehm
    Texas
    Leader – Rick Coburn
    Ron Hindt
    Ken Merrihew
    Bill Gehm
    Northwest/Alaska: Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Alaska
    Leader – Wayne Taylor
    Bob Caldwell
    Rob Verdeyen
    Ken Ortiz
    Central-West Region: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Colorado, Wyoming

    Leader: Tom Stipe
    Shaun Sells
    Dave Love
    Eric Cartier
    Al Pittman
    Hawaii
    Leader – Bill Stonebraker
    Mike Stangel
    Rick Irons
    Tim Newman
    Ricky Ryan
    Northern/Central California
    Leader – Damian Kyle
    John Snoderly
    Bill Holdridge
    Rich Chaffin
    Tim Brown
    California: Santa Barbara/Ventura/San Fernando Valley
    Leader: David Guzik
    Troy Spilman
    Lance Ralston
    Paul Berry
    Rob McCoy
    California: LA/Orange/San Bernardino Counties
    Leader: Jeff Johnson
    Raul Ries
    Jack Hibbs
    David Rosales
    Brian Brodersen
    Steve Mays
    California: San Diego/Other southern counties
    Leader – Mike MacIntosh
    Ray Bentley
    Rob Glickman
    Mike Madigan
    Bob Botsford
    Pete Malinger
    Chaz Yandal
    Norlyn Kent
    Erick Martin
    Gary Lawton

    The team of pastors in the regions will essentially assume the role in the region that CCOF used to fulfill and much more.
    They will oversee affiliations and hopefully the process will return to church planting based on relationships. It will be their responsibility to see that the process becomes strong and personal and when someone comes into the family of churches they are well connected with their fellow ministries.
    They will also be places for anyone in their region to go to for most any reason that a person would contact a church. The website under construction right now is very user friendly with regional team members photos and a place to go for questions.
    They will handle problem letters, calls and emails that now come into either Calvary of Costa Mesa or CCOF. Any of this will be immediately forwarded to the regional team and the matter can be handled locally with leaders who are there in the area. Hopefully this will be a help and blessing to all.
    They regional teams will help oversee regional conferences that help bring the Calvary affiliates in the their areas closer together.
    It is Chuck’s desire that these men who have been with him for years will become looked to more and more to help guide, bless, encourage, inspire and give fresh vision to the movement.

    As to the central office, yes, there will still be one of sorts, but, it is more of a clearinghouse and database for the movement. I (Don McClure) and Michelle Wright (a very capable secretary you may have spoken to in the past) Will be overseeing it. There is, however, a major change from the previous time we attempted the regional idea about 10 years ago. And that is that both Chuck Smith and I will not be having any authority over the decisions of the regional teams. Though we sit on the council of CCA, the true leadership is being handed over to the regions. My personal involvement is as an administrator/facilitator among the council members and handle planning and helping the regions all work together and oversee the home office. I will continue with my present ministry for the most part but, consider it a joy to help in this manner.

    Chuck has asked the CCA council to take over the vision and leadership for the senior pastors annual conference and thus become the planning board for that.
    Those men are listed below:
    Chuck Smith, Skip Heitzig, Rick Ryan, Mike MacIntosh, Raul Ries, Damian Kyle, Joe Focht, Bob Coy, Bob Caldwell, Jack Hibbs, Brian Brodersen, David Rosales, Malcolm Wild, Steve Mays, Jeff Johnson, Bill Stonebraker, Wayne Taylor, Greg Laurie, Tom Stipe, David Guzik, Ray Bentley, Lloyd Pulley, Sandy Adams and Don Mc Clure.

    Chuck has also asked the CCA council to oversee the pastors wives annual conference as it is Kay’s desire as well. The board servicing the pastors wives conference is as follows. Leader: Sandy MacIntosh, Karyn Johnson, Cheryl Brodersen, Debbi Bryson Cathy Dickinson, June Hesterly, Laura Jackson, Cathe Laurie, Gail Mays, Sharon Ries, Marie Rosales, and Jean McClure

    Hopefully this helps answer a few questions that are floating around.

    I believe that as a group of ministries, we are all truly thankful for the foundation that both Chuck and Kay have laid for us and it is a great challenge to have them pass the movement on. I am sure I speak for all the council when I ask for your prayers and patience as we seek the Lord’s anointing and blessing on this new plan. Many have been praying for the Lord to show us the direction for the future and we believe He has.
    Personally I am very thankful to be a part of this family and to be surrounded by such a tremendous group of brothers and sisters. I am thrilled and blessed to see where He would lead us now.
    As for the moment, the old website is still functional and we can all be found there until things get freshened up.

    Thank you all, in His love

    Don McClure
    Administrator

  20. So I counted 14 different variations of Calvary chapel. I wonder if there will be 14 different variations of the Calvary Chapel distinctives and Calvary Chapel logo/dove or will the CCA insist that all 14 regions agree to the same distinctives? On the surface it almost appears that nothing has changed other than changing the name CCOF to CCA. After all Chuck Smith never claimed to have authority over any of his churches. I seem to recall him saying that recently. My hunch is that all 14 regional pastors will learn from Chuck Smith and also not claim any responsibility or authority over any of the churches they birth other than to cherry pick whenever they feel like it. I know that is a broad brush and maybe there will be exceptions. However, what better example to learn from than Chuck Smith himself. I hope and pray for the movement that this works but I wish they would just trust the bible when it comes to church government. I am having a hard time seeing this as a biblical model for church government and for a church movement so focused on the Word of God, I am not sure what biblical model they will come up with next to replace the Moses model. Maybe it will be something like the 12 tribes of Israel model or something like that.

  21. Hmmm, so Boob Grenier is not listed in the Central CA team. I wonder why? One would think he’d be a shoo-in after Chuck’s hearty endorsements, Farewell Tour to Visalia, and tacit approval of his pastoring and parenting skills. Is Chuck now trying to create some distance since he “believes” Alex and bros? Thanks Onceler for the update.

  22. ….It is Chuck’s desire that these men who have been with him for years will become looked to more and more to help guide, bless, encourage, inspire and give fresh vision to the movement…..

    If Chuck is looking to mere men to bring fresh VISION to the movement, he is sadly mistaken. He should look to the bible and look to Jesus and be on guard to anyone who claims to be a visionary leader and dreamer.

  23. Can someone help me out with this?

    I noticed that Lloyd Pulley is listed on the CCA council. I just went to their website and listened to an interview with Ergun Caner in which Ergun appears to be completely lying about when he came to the United States and how he was raised. I believe Ergun lost his position at Liberty University over this lie. It boggles my mind that a pastor with the stature of Lloyd Pulley would keep this interview posted on their church web site as a tacit endorsement of Ergun. Is Lloyd Pulley just not aware of the lie or not think its that big or has Ergun been telling the truth all along?

    http://www.bridgegap.org/page.asp?pg=listen&subpage=interviews#

  24. i’m giggling that John Higgins isn’t in the arizona group. last time he was. maybe he’s just lost some of the Shiloh/House of Miracles/Lonnie Frisbee favor he had stored up from the ‘early days’ of CC.
    Skip’s there
    Mark Martin (yay!) is there
    and Bob Furrow from Tucson
    don’t know the others….
    but JH’s absence is noticeable and curious.

  25. sniff…sniff… this entire letter and reshaping of CCOF has Roger Wing ALL over it. Roger has mentioned to me several times that CCCM/CCOF should not be the legal funnel for CC problems.
    Sheck, you may better elaborate (from my perspective…even though I do not know you) on the background of this non-agency inception.
    Chuck is a smart man. Like it or not, each person must understand this. Now, when a legal issue arises, Don & Roger can forward the matter to the regional leader.
    INGENIOUS! Pass the responsibility…Now we are back in the garden of Eden…
    The Game of Duck, Dodge, Deflect and Deny continues.

    The only good thing about this letter is the list of names for Alex to correspond with, asking the obvious questions… Accountability, Responsibility, Fiduciary Duty, Oversight, Resolution and Reconciliation.

    In my simple mind, send the first letter to Damian, John, Bill, Rich, and Tim asking for a sit down with an abusive CC Pastor.

    This response will be very telling… is the new boss same as the old boss? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Pjay

  26. If CC is broken into regional parts, who controls the institutions such as the Bible College, Word for Today and other institutions of the non-denomination?

    Regional organization is a good thing but it’s got problems as well without a central organization to organize the regions.

    In an organization like CC where the affiliation is to Chuck Smith how will that affiliation transfer to the lesser stars- men who are now approaching retirement age themselves?

  27. In the end, Chuck Smith handpicked his own successors but how will their successors be picked? And who will judge a matter against one of them?

    Real denominations have a separate “organization” called the ministerium to take care of matters dealing with discipline of pastors. CC isn’t real…

  28. Good questions Doug.

    I think TWFT is a CCCM asset, as well as the Castle in Austria and the Conference Center and Murietta Property.

  29. the question is who holds the “title deeds” (worth umpteen millions of dollers) to all the cc a$$ets and properties?

    hint: bb and cb

  30. Greetings all,
    I am a CC Pastor… (CCflagler.org)
    You quote “sources” but do not say what they are. I am aware of no plans for CC to become a denomination. I am amazed at the intense level of scrutiny you folks are applying to CC. It is true that as Chuck gets older the movement must plan for the future. With well over 1000 affiliated churches it stands to reason that expecting one man or even a few good men, to be able to provide any reasonable oversight is silly. Creating a council that provides some local support on the myriad issues that church leaders face is to me, a great thing. I read often on blogs like this one that CC pastors do not go to seminary. I am a seminary grad. I read that CC pastors are usually uneducated. I have a Bachelors and a Masters degree and an half way through an EdD. The movement was born in the late 1960’s-early 1970’s. It was organic. Often men that had no background were used by God and advanced to positions of authority. Perhaps God did this because not enough of the typical religiously educated folks were doing the work of the ministry. As the movement grows I think we will continue to see more pastors with accredited backgrounds. I think it is unfair to expect CC or any group to be as evolved as denominational groups that have been around in some cases for hundreds of years. I have always felt that the reason there is a CC is due in large part to the failure of many denominational organizations. Many denoms have lost any connection to young folks. Many of them are so wrapped up in their own survival that they ignore outreach, evangelism and the critical importance of teaching people the Bible. CC is by no means perfect, but no church is. I grew up in the Catholic Church and they have very public problems. Find me a perfect church, or a perfect church government model.. I sure can’t find one. This blog said that they hand out Calvary Affiliations easily. Not true. Despite my going to a CC Bible college in Costa Mesa, and having served as an intern in a California CC, I had to go through the exact same vetting process as anyone else does..and it is a very stringent process. I have seen many folks get saved at CC’s over the years. I got saved at a CC in 1996. Lumps and all, Calvary Chapel has gone from 25 folks in a little church in Costa Mesa back in the 1960’s to the largest non denominational group I can think of. God has allowed this to happen. If you do not like your local CC then I urge you. Go plant a church.. go to the mall or the beach or wherever and preach the everlasting Gospel…Go to Iraq, like CC has, go to Viet Nam like CC has… go do something for Jesus…Go !! Man so many are perishing every day without Jesus…. Spending so much time scrutinizing CC’s likely has not led anyone to Jesus….. examine yourselves at least half as closely as you do the CC’s out there….
    Much love
    Mark Convoy

  31. Mark, I like your optimism to go share Jesus but I don’t share your cavalier attitude to just go plant a church. A question for you. You say the vetting process to become a Calvary Chapel was fairly stringent. However are you telling us that once you become a Calvary Chapel affiliate it is next to impossible to loose it no matter what the crime or issue is?

  32. Hi Andrew,
    I truly do not see what is cavalier about planting a church.. I am a CC pastor and I ( guided by God I hope and pray) planted CC Flagler Beach in Florida. We had no money at all… not a penny.. My Pastor In California was very helpful in terms of moral and prayer support, but again no money was sent…. I connected to the CC in Ormond Beach ( the closest CC to the intended place of planting) and kept them informed on what we were doing and where….and we planted a church.. we started a little Bible study, it grew and as it grew and as folks began to financially support the group we got to a place where we could have a building. I do not receive a salary… we cannot afford that at this time.. I have a 9 to 5 job during the week….Andrew, seriously, planting a church is a very do-able thing.. I do not mean to sound cavalier at all….

    On to your question… once the vetting process is done and you receive the invitation to become a CC, then staying a CC is up to both parties.. up to the Church and their leadership, and up to CC leadership.. these new layers of local oversight will ( I believe) help deal more effectively with individual and local church issues. I can think of a few times over the years when bad things have happenned in a given CC church and CC senior leadership was simply to separated geographically from the situation to be able to do much to help or resolve any issues. If a person has a complaint CC leadership ( the new local leadership) can investigate. CC leadership can elect to remove the church from the fellowship for cause…They cannot reach into the churches because, again, each church is autonomous… CC authority only extends to whether or not a church remains in CC fellowship. Our church (CCflagler.org) has a very active church board. They are empowered to act locally on church issues. We have a very highly evovled By Law document that empowers the board.

    We are not perfect.. far from it.. but we are a fledgling organization.. As I said earlier, many or most American churches have years of history from which to learn and create policy….and also enjoy a pool of resources.. We are not there yet in terms of history, but it is nice to see the resources growing… my e mail is markconvoy@aol.com feel free to contact me with any CC questions… much love and peace to you ..Mark

  33. Mark said, “once the vetting process is done and you receive the invitation to become a CC”

    You received an “invitation” to become an official CC?

    …very interesting. I don’t think you are telling the truth here. I’d have to see the invite to believe it.

  34. @Alex… We got a letter Alex, telling letting us know that our application to become a CC was approved and that our church was being invited into (Then CCOF)… what is so hard to believe? It happens all the time? Understand by “invitation” I mean we received a letter from CCOF approving us…..we were invited into Calvary Chapel…. simple…

    WHat other questiosn do you have?

  35. Mark

    ” I have seen many folks get saved at CC’s over the years. I got saved at a CC in 1996. Lumps and all, Calvary Chapel has gone from 25 folks in a little church in Costa Mesa back in the 1960’s to the largest non denominational group I can think of. God has allowed this to happen. If you do not like your local CC then I urge you. Go plant a church.. go to the mall or the beach or wherever and preach the everlasting Gospel…Go to Iraq, like CC has, go to Viet Nam like CC has… go do something for Jesus…Go !! Man so many are perishing every day without Jesus…. Spending so much time scrutinizing CC’s likely has not led anyone to Jesus….. examine yourselves at least half as closely as you do the CC’s out there….”

    Mark, congratulations on succeeding in gaining your heart’s desire to become a Pastor for a CC church. I hope you are of the few that really cares about the church and not just about bringing people into the fold. Given your comment, however, I fear that his just may be the case. For what I heard you say is that because you are an educated person, it negated what Alex has stated regarding the fact that historically speaking, education has not been encouraged by the CC leadership. As for CCBC, it is not accrediitated and the reason given because of not wanting to be placed under that which would interfere with what CC would like to emphasized in their teachings by teachers who do not hold a college degree. What more, we all know Mark, that the majority of coursework is bathed in listening to tape after tape of Chuck Smith rather than to gain a wide breadth of exposure to historical theological and apologetical teachers.

    Mark, what you are sharing is from a view that is a short window in the history that you have personally been involved. Anything beyond the time that you came to Christ is only what you have been told or have read by others. Attending CCBC has prepeared you well in giving pat answers to defend CC. However, and I mean, however, your comments are, as sincere as you are, are nevertheless naive in thinking that you are on solid ground.

    As a person who came to the Lord via a CC in 1978, I think I am equipped to make an educated and informed response to your commetns Oh,by the way I have 3 degrees with 4 majors. I have also an expertise in addictions, including sexual addiction, apologetics, domestic violence, and child abuse. I am also a victim that was not just betrayed by my husband who attends a CC, but by CC as well for failing to hold him to an account and to protect and to support me in my efforts to stop the abuse and to enable him to repent and to reconcile with me and our marriage.

    Mark, it is all good and well that God’s Word is going forth in the world beyond CC Costa Mesa, but it a huge failing when CC places more emphasis on this than they do in attending the flock already placed in their care. Mark, it use to be that Chuck Smith and CC pastors would repeat over and over again, how education perverted a person and how churches that put more emphasis on numbers than they did on the value and worth of person was more interested in buidling a kingdom on earth, rather that of the Lord. But in your own words that have been touted by so many in recent years what CC used to teach and preach to be out of the will of the Lord has now become.

    Mark, you missed that mark in reading through the various comments made on this site. Instead, you took the all too familiar defensive position and did not hear the cries of those who loves CC and have put in far more time than you have in supporting it and holding it close in their hearts and in their prayers.

    Having said this, I do hope and pray that you are among the few CC Pastors that will break away from what does not serve the flock, but rather lines the pockets and breaks the hearts while shattering the lives of many who trusted, but was abandoned by a hirelings instead. Please humble yourself and with the objectivity that is emphasized in an academic environment, revisit and permit your heart to hear and to see beyond what you be unfair and unwarranted critcism. Do not wash your hand and shuffle your feet because of your new venture of building a CC thinking all is well as long as you are bringing in the sheaves while leaving the lamb left to the leaven and slaughter that is being perpetrated and ignored at home.

    Shalom, in Jesus

  36. Mark, one other exhortation. By ignoring the harms being done to the flock you join in the persecution of the church. So, when you say, Go preach the Gospel and do not tend to the flock, you are not serving God but are missing the mark and bear the sins of those who are and have persecuting the church from within.

    I realize you and others may think this to be too harsh of a statement. Yet, Paul himself asked the church why it was that when he admonished them for not applying church discipline but rather counted him as an enemy instead.

    The same was said of Jesus when he admonish the Saducees and Pharisees when he held to an account for failing to provide aid, assistance, and adding a heavy burden when they themselves would not follow Scripturural teachings. Remember, it is not you, me or anyone else that converts anyone. It is the Holy Spirit that does this. But if the church is not being fed, nurtured, and protected from the leaven within the body, including the leadership by the leadership and its body, then what witness is there to bear to those who are without salvation and what strength is there within the body of Christ?

    We are attempting to expose the corruption and the evil that is and have been perpetrated within the confines of CC. We know this is not specific to CC only but also to other denominations as well. But that does not negate our responsibility to clean our churches up to enable all to be safe from being raped by those who would used God’s Word to cover up the corruption, the violence, and the evil being or have been done.

  37. What part of “approve” does Chuck Smith not know about or understand?

    Chuck Smith: “We are all totally independent. I, CCCM, and CCOF have no control over any CC’s, nor do we want to have any.”

    Mark Convoy: ” We got a letter Alex, telling letting us know that our application to become a CC was approved and that our church was being invited into (Then CCOF)… what is so hard to believe? It happens all the time? Understand by “invitation” I mean we received a letter from CCOF approving us…..we were invited into Calvary Chapel…. simple…”

    Alex, what went wrong in that court case that could not establish a link between the controlling powers of CCOF, Chuck Smith, CCCM and the rest of the CC’s? Clearly “it happens all the time,” as Mark stated.

  38. Hi All

    OK.. I am grateful for this discourse and for your comments. I will respond to a few of them.. keep the dialogue going.. this can only help….

    OK.. I have been with CC since 1996.. It is hard for me to speak about before that.. but I know the men and women who were around before then. I have heard good things and not so good things.CC is not perfoct.. but I love CC just the same
    I have heard about this question of being a denomination or not… I do think that some definitions of what a denominiation is could fit some parts of how CC operates.. Overall the word itself…”Denomination” is not really clearly defined out there in Religious studies circles…. but I can see how some could call us a denomination….

    Next point.. I DO NOT wink at the sin that has been exposed in individual CC’s out there… I hate it.. truth be told.. I hated the thing in Orange county last year invovling a CC pastor arrested for molestation.. I hate the arrest that heppenned in July in Westminster, CA….over similar charges… even so… the CC’s out there are individually run…I do not ignore this stuff.. I have preached on it.,.I informed our congregation about it..we have had leaders meetings on these issues.. accusing me of complicity is irrational and irresponsible…. my presence on this BLOg is evidnce that I want to talk about this stuff….

    . The recent letters that this site has published do show that the area leaderships will have very limited powers …mostly to review applications for affiliation.. personally I think that in the future things could continue to evolve towards more formal leadership level above the local CC’s but only time will tell.. again folks.. CC is like 45 years old… most denominations have had a lot longer to develop and evolve….maybe history will be the best judge of whether and just when CC became (if ever) a denomination

    Next.. on to the issue of being “approved”… just because a group.. whatever group.. “approves” or chooses not to approve a person ( or church) for entry into that group.. it does not automatically follow tat the group is ” a denomination”… again.. I kind see CC maybe heading there someday.. that day is not today and I could be wrong..but now by virtue of the local CC leader groups the ‘approval process” is local and again all they are doing is saying ” yes we will bring you into the fellowship”… this is kind of a semantic argument.. one persons fellowship is another persons denomination

    FOlks.. if you are alleging a massive cover up that inclides all leaders down to the level of local pastors of local CC churches..I say that I do not see it.. I am not covering anything up..

    I can promise you this folks.. I am with you on the moral issues.. if a guy is doing wrong.. if sin is being covered up…. I say expose it…. I say the guy must step down.. if there is a victim invovled the guy must step down permanently . if the police need to be invovled then by all means get them invovled

    One of you (Linda) accused me of “washing my hands and shuffling my feet because I am estabishing a CC”..ouch.. wow.. that is harsh.. you dont even know me.. my hands are dirty from building and painting and sweating…. my hands are busy… CC’s do not get money for church planting from other CC’s (at least mine never got a penny).. maybe some others do…I dunno……if there is sin…expose it.. keep writing.. keep inviestigating.. but share the truth in love.. restrain the hyperbole and the acrimony I see in SOME ( not all ) of these posts.. conduct a healty, respectful discussion or even debate.. but be kind and Christian… If we keep the discussion respectful perhaps progress could be made.. perhaps your voice could rise to many ears and become part of changes for the better..but you all are smart enough to know that acrimony gets dismissed

    To Andrew’s question.. about losing your CC once you are approved.. Andrew.. I have seen several CC;s asked to step out of the Fellowship.. a few would not do so and then they were dismissed from the fellowship… .. and regarding the ones I knew of personally.. asking them to leave was the right thing to do

    Regarding education.. my point in describing my own education was to show that more and more the leaders are getting educated.. More and more I am seeing the former dim view of education give way to tolerance and in some cases an approving view of education.. Down here in Florida I am trying to start a Bible college that will combine the efforts of various Protestant Pastors (all with Master’s of better from a credentialed school) .all from several differnce churches in the area….I think I would be the only CC guy inthe group . and we intend to create a local Bible college that can help train folks for the ministry.. I am whole heartedly in favor of accredited education..I agree with you point that traditionally CC has taken a dim view of “secular” or even accredited Christian education.. from my perspective I see this givin way in recent years.. CC Bible college I am told is pursuing some sort of accreditation right now…..I do not know how far along this is.. but that is what I hear

    folks.. keep writing… my e mail is markconvoy@aol.com my cell is 386 589 3940… let’s reason together.. truth and transparency are critical.. I can say that if I become convinced of some massive multi level cover up of sin just to save some well positioned pastor’s hyde.. then I would take a very aggressive position against such a conspiracy.. what I see now is a movement at a crossroads.. some guys wnat to go one way,. and some want to go some other ways… we shall see what God does..and I hope to be on the right side of God’s will

    much ove
    mark

  39. Mark Convoy said, “@Alex… We got a letter Alex, telling letting us know that our application to become a CC was approved and that our church was being invited into (Then CCOF)… what is so hard to believe? It happens all the time? Understand by “invitation” I mean we received a letter from CCOF approving us…..we were invited into Calvary Chapel…. simple…”

    Can’t be. Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph and Janet Carter (Chuck’s lawyer) told me they’d never seen or heard of Affiliation etc when I met with them in person at the Logos Building in the board room in Costa Mesa last year.

    Are you telling me Chuck Smith lied to me? LOL.

    I’m being sarcastic. Chuck lied to my face and played coy with the obvious. I know you guys have an Affiliation application and agreement and that there’s a process etc. My point is Chuck Smith lied his butt off when he was being sued by those boys who were molested in Idaho.

    After I outed the details of our “meeting” and how disillusioned I was seeing behind the curtain, Rolph offered a lame explanation saying he and Chuck and Chuck’s attorney didn’t “deny” affiliation, just that they’d never “seen” an affiliation agreement, etc. Total b.s. They wouldn’t cop to Affiliation at all and tried to tell me it didn’t exist and that they had no knowledge of such a concept. This was b/c they were being sued and they were lying their butts off just in case. It’s wrong. It showed me that the top CC Leadership could care less about righteousness. It’s about expediency and protecting their assets.

    If that’s what you want to be a part of, knock yourself out.

  40. @38 OK.. I have been with CC since 1996.. It is hard for me to speak about before that.. but I know the men and women who were around before then. I have heard good things and not so good things.CC is not perfoct.. but I love CC just the same

    Mark- Why do you talk in terms of “CC” rather than the individua/individualsl?

    How can you judge a church that way? Are you talking about a majority of persons? Are you talking in terms of leadership? Just what does “CC is not perfect”..”I love CC just the same”?
    Are you talking in terms of doctrine?
    Who and what exactly is “CC” to you?

    By the way, I am glad that you are getting your hands dirty, unlike some megapastors who drive around in convertible sports cars paid for by tithers barely able to pay their mortgage.

  41. Re: Mark Convoy said,

    “FOlks.. if you are alleging a massive cover up that inclides all leaders down to the level of local pastors of local CC churches..I say that I do not see it.. I am not covering anything up..”

    “I can promise you this folks.. I am with you on the moral issues.. if a guy is doing wrong.. if sin is being covered up…. I say expose it…. I say the guy must step down.. if there is a victim invovled the guy must step down permanently . if the police need to be invovled then by all means get them invovled”

    Mark, are you familiar with the CC pastor named Gino Geraci in Colorado? When he was told by a congregant that CC pastor Brian Abeyta was AWOL from the church, that there was talk that he’d filed for divorce secretly, that another CC pastor brought evidence against Abeyta about his being unfaithful to his wife, and about Abeyta lying about what he was gone from the church, that money was missing, etc… Do you know what Gino’s response was? He told the congregant that the church leadership should be actively SILENCING any talk about this.

    Gino Geraci, Ed Taylor & Dave Love did not require repentance in the form of repayment of the total $260K that Abeyta wrongfully took from the church, only that he had to pay taxes on it. They only had Abeyta’s finances reviewed for the year of 2011. Who knows how much more money he stole?

    It was only AFTER Abeyta tried to start a community prayer meeting near the current church that the leaders told the congregants of the 3 women who stepped forward saying they had all been in a relationship with Brian Abeyta at the same time, apparently.

    The practice of these CC leaders (2 of which come from the Mothership from the Jesus movement, with Gino being the one who led Skip Heitzig to the Lord,) was to SILENCE the talk and protect the pastor in sin. They did not require restitution and made clear to the audience that the notion of “Once called, Always called” applied to Abeyta. Does that sound like standing up to leaders in unrepentant sin?

    Abeyta has now left town, onto a job in New Jersey (he calls the Greater New York area,) and some say he’s going to start another church. NO one can stop him.

    Actually, No One could stop him while he was in sin here, not until he was found out to be violating the law and operating without a board for 3 years. No one could stop him from intimidating with armed men, creatively removing people from the church for even asking about the finances since Abeyta made each ministry pay for what they needed, including Vacation Bible School, while he ate out every meal, spent tons on clothes, obtained new cars every two years, and lived lavishly! All the spiritual abuse was his to commit and no one could stop him.

    The CC Moses Model governing structure has this danger built into it. You, as the leader, cannot be challenged or fired by your board, your elders, anyone over you (which there is no one) or anyone beside you, or anyone under you. NO ONE can fire you, but you can fire all of them for even just disagreeing with you.

    If accountability requires that you agree to it, then it’s NOT accountability.

    If you are somehow and exception to the CC Moses Model, then you are not actually operating according to the CC Distinctives. But if you are a Moses Model pastor, then you have no financial accountability, no accountability at all. You may be a great guy today, but your structure will set you up to fail eventually. Just because you can’t see other CC pastors hiding things, doesn’t mean they are not. I’ve seen too much to assume good anymore. Prove it by changing your by-laws to include accountability with TEETH.

  42. Grateful, we need to make your last post it’s own article. Geez, that’s terrible, but so par of the course.

    Mark Convoy, I have piles and piles of this B.S. There comes a point where you’re just part of a bad organization that says it’s all hunky dory, while burying the bad stuff that goes on and lying to the public by omission.

    It’s easy to claim “good fruit! good fruit!” when the CC Leadership has a regular practice and history of keeping folks in the dark and burying all the bad fruit.

    Chuck Smith says the non-member member’s recourse is to “vote with your feet!”

    Well, how can they cast an accurate vote when the truth of so many situations is intentionally suppressed to give a false appearance and a false sense of accountability etc.

    It’s called L.Y.I.N.G. and it’s bad fruit. It’s a bad System. Bad Culture. Despite some good folks being in it.

  43. Yes, Alex, make that post an article!

    Grateful “The CC Moses Model governing structure has this danger built into it. You, as the leader, cannot be challenged or fired by your board, your elders, anyone over you (which there is no one) or anyone beside you, or anyone under you. NO ONE can fire you, but you can fire all of them for even just disagreeing with you.”

    Maybe thats what makes a Pastor “love CC just the same”.

  44. Mark, you’re welcome to comment but don’t peddle your CC b.s. it won’t fly. I’ve experienced too much, know too much of what’s gone on behind the scenes, personally witnessed how Chuck Smith deals with stuff etc. It’s largely a sham and veneer.

  45. I found this condescending and so typically controlling of CC Pastors:

    Mark: CC’s do not get money for church planting from other CC’s (at least mine never got a penny).. maybe some others do…I dunno……if there is sin…expose it.. keep writing.. keep inviestigating.. but share the truth in love.. restrain the hyperbole and the acrimony I see in SOME ( not all ) of these posts.. conduct a healty, respectful discussion or even debate.. but be kind and Christian… If we keep the discussion respectful perhaps progress could be made.. perhaps your voice could rise to many ears and become part of changes for the better..but you all are smart enough to know that acrimony gets dismissed

    He makes blanket statements about CC’s then says “I dunno”
    How long has Mark been part of this group to have the audacity to attempt exert this kind of control on us? Is that his privelege as a CC Pastor?

  46. Remember I am a CC Pastor’s Kid and grew up in the mess and saw behind the scenes for many years, saw the Raul Ries’s and the Greg Laurie’s and the rest. Heard all the garbage, saw the duplicity in front of the lights/stage/pulpit and then the behind the scenes. Then I get to know some major insiders from CCCM and Calvary Chapel thanks to the blog, then even I am shocked at all the really bad stuff. Then I get to see how CC pastors defend the Brand and react in a “Well gee we’re not all bad, we’re made of imperfect people, but I still love Calvary Chapel!”

    My advice, love Jesus and be truly independent and truly non-denominatinal and quit endorsing a bad Brand and apologizing for it.

    I know that’s hard to do, b/c deep down it’s a business and you need the Brand to put butts in seats and you like the connections etc. Human nature.

  47. First: When one is speaking to people who’ve been abused by church pastors, it is poor form to tell them how to speak about their abuse. At least that’s what Peacemakers says. But who am I, to say? … just an abused former attendee.

    Second: Chuck Smith says the non-member member’s recourse is to “vote with your feet!”. Ever think about just how wrong this is? The pastor can do wrong and make the people move, uprooting their families instead him taking some correction or moving himself.

    One man can just rule with an iron fist and never have to take into consideration the needs of the people. He doesn’t even have to pay close attention since no one can do anything about it. So one man can make bad decisions on a day/season when he’s off his game (as we all are at times,) but no one can help him course correct early in the game, or middle, or late. Instead, the attenders have to uproot their families and in try to find another church.

    No wonder so many just close their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears, keep their head down and just stay; cause with this structure, the people will just have to keep leaving their CC’s each time their pastor poor season in his life.

  48. I know we’ve said this a gazillion times but …

    When one is a CC pastor, they get to build up the cash flow and do as they please with no oversight. So when a CC pastor tells me they love Calvary Chapel, even if there is some rot, without changing the Moses Model structure in their own church that made the other pastors go bad, then their “love” for CC is suspect. It might have dollar signs behind their love$$.

    Sorry, Mark. I genuinely hope this does not apply to you.

    * I would be thrilled to hear that you have written into your by-laws serious changes that create real accountability, that includes financial accountability, with real consequences that include empowering others to actually be able to fire you.
    * I would be over the moon if you empowered your elders and board members to challenge you early and often.
    * Many would be impressed if you did not stack your board with friends and “yes” men who don’t attend your church or live in your city; but rather have wise, seasoned men and women from within your church and community on your board.
    * Many would be stunned, happily so, if they found out you actually used elders as elders are used in the New Testament.

    Just for starters …

  49. Grateful, all we can hope for is that individual CC’s will try and not be jerks like many of their “in fellowship” Affiliated brothers.

    CC Leadership at “We’re Mothership” oops lawsuit, “No we’re all independent!” could care less unless Chuck has beef, then they’ll get involved

  50. The other thing we can do is warn, warn, warn and tell folks to be leery of Calvary Chapel and watch for warning signs of an abusive CC pastor/church

  51. Mark,

    The whole point being made is, you do know that these things are taking place. You also know they have been in place for a very long time. You know that that those who have been injured have tried to bring this out in the open and have asked for the things that have been repeatedly stated on this site. It’s not a case of you not being involved or having not directly participated. You are a CC Pastor and represent all of CC, like it or not. For instance, you know darn well that there pastors, that have committed adultery and have been permitted to continue being a pastor. What have done about that? You also know about my situation, as well, as Alex and others. You know there no accountability and that there is not memership among the congregants so they are not “able to take part in the decision making processes concerning the affairs of the church, which they are the very embodiment of such an entity—-.

    The question is: Now that you know, what are “you” going to do? I suggest for starters, you follow Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastor. Educate yourself and stop thinking that you are removed far from these things that continues to be most harmful and abusive towards towards the flock put under their care.

    Men who commit adultery and abuse their wives and children should be removed from being any type of leader in the church. What more, CC needs to equipped themselves by humbly repenting and following the recommendations made by Pastor Jeff. What more, CC leaders ought seek training to enable a process of church discipline involving such issues that would promote reconciliation without blaming the victim while protecting them at the same time.

    What are you going to do Mark, in bringing CC Pastors together to make the changes necessary to facilitate these things? Because, I truely believe this is what God is going to be asking each Pastor of CC on that day. What did you do to stop the abuse, the adultery, the molestations, and what did you do other than to preach gainst these things?

  52. Oh, and by the way, it is a poor argument to use to justify these things by saying:

    “CC is like 45 years old… most denominations have had a lot longer to develop and evolve….”

    That is so lame. The history of such churches goes back where there were less examples to draw upon, but even then none of them came up with a “Moses” model. It is because CS rebelled against having to be held to an account that he left his denomination and create CC as a corporation with him in total and complete charge and ownership of all assets, that were gained through the offerings of trusting congregants. He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the difference between the N.T. church and the Moses Model. And now many are getting clue due to their own abuse and betrayals they have experienced as a result of this “model” or “movement.”

    CC also has the luxury (particularly in light of the Internet) to examine the history of other church organizations. So, to say it is going through a “growing” period being “only” 45 years old, is hogwash. The fact is, the Moses Model is not Scriptural and the entire body of Christ needs to be involve in making decisions that not only benefit those in the “flock,” but also protect the leadership from losing touch with the true call of their ministry.

    “CC Bible college I am told is pursuing some sort of accreditation right now…..I do not know how far along this is.. but that is what I hear ”

    Hate to burst your bubble on this, but they have been saying this for years while also saying they have not pursued this in order to enable those who “do not” hold the same level of credentialing requirements of instructors and professors in those college institutes that do.

    Mark, we have as a group and individually have brought these to the respective CC leadership in the best of possible ways. We have been ignored, discounted, and even octracized, shunned, labeded, and persecuted as a result of this. So when you say, let’s discussed this and let’s do in in such and such manner, it comes across as being, “been there, done that” so what else is new and what is it going to take for CC to “get it?”

    This may all be new to you—-so what you are suggesting sounds very diplomatic and peace making. But please understand, and spend some time on this site listening to the history of what have taken place and how it has impacted the lives of many. Then say to yourself, what can I do as a CC Pastor to engage the other CC Pastors in taking a different stance and perpetuating these things that are and have been taking place. How does the Moses Model perpetuate this type of abuse and lack of accountability between the congregant and the CC Leadership? What would happen if a financial statement was made avaiable to those who attend CC? How would that actually enable those who attend to take a more active part in ministry and how would that enable these monies to be used more in line as outlined in the N.T. churches? Hmmmm.

  53. Oh, and by the way, it is a poor argument to use to justify these things by saying:

    “CC is like 45 years old… most denominations have had a lot longer to develop and evolve….”

    That is so lame. The history of such churches goes back where there were less examples to draw upon, but even then none of them came up with a “Moses” model. It is because CS rebelled against having to be held to an account that he left his denomination and create CC as a corporation with him in total and complete charge and ownership of all assets, that were gained through the offerings of trusting congregants. He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the difference between the N.T. church and the Moses Model. And now many are getting a clue due to their own abuse and betrayals they have experienced as a result of this “model” or “movement.”

    CC also has the luxury (particularly in light of the Internet) to examine the history of other church organizations. So, to say it is going through a “growing” period being “only” 45 years old, is hogwash. The fact is, the Moses Model is not Scriptural and the entire body of Christ needs to be involve in making decisions that not only benefit those in the “flock,” but also protect the leadership from losing touch with the true call of their ministry.

    “CC Bible college I am told is pursuing some sort of accreditation right now…..I do not know how far along this is.. but that is what I hear ”

    Hate to burst your bubble on this, but they have been saying this for years while also saying they have not pursued this in order to enable those who “do not” hold the same level of credentialing requirements of instructors and professors in those college institutes that do.

    Mark, we have as a group and individually have brought these to the respective CC leadership in the best of possible ways. We have been ignored, discounted, and even octracized, shunned, labeded, and persecuted as a result of this. So when you say, let’s discussed this and let’s do in in such and such manner, it comes across as being, “been there, done that” so what else is new and what is it going to take for CC to “get it?”

    This may all be new to you—-so what you are suggesting sounds very diplomatic and peace making. But please understand, and spend some time on this site listening to the history of what have taken place and how it has impacted the lives of many. Then say to yourself, what can I do as a CC Pastor to engage the other CC Pastors in taking a different stance and perpetuating these things that are and have been taking place. How does the Moses Model perpetuate this type of abuse and lack of accountability between the congregant and the CC Leadership? What would happen if a financial statement was made avaiable to those who attend CC? How would that actually enable those who attend to take a more active part in ministry and how would that enable these monies to be used more in line as outlined in the N.T. churches? Hmmmm.

  54. Sorry, I didn’t complete the sentence:

    “Hate to burst your bubble on this, but they have been saying this for years while also saying they have not pursued this in order to enable those who “do not” hold the same level of credentialing requirements of instructors and professors in those college institutes that do, to teach “what CC wants them to believe (my emphasis).” What I see in their curriculum is a total indoctrination into the “Moses” model and a heavy emphasis in knowing how to read scripture, the interpreting it through CS and other CC pastors, whom have sat under CS, other wise known as: “the CS way.

    This type of academic curriculum is not considered to be truely educational in that it does not permit a well rounded exposure and thoughful exploration into the critical thinking exercises that enables an individual to go beyond the walls of CS and the “Mose” model of doing things. It, in turn does created a bubble of ignorance and belief that “all is well with CC and anything that rocks this boat is to be viewed as being an attack on its leaders and movement.

  55. This type of “educational” and “church” leadership model is then nothing more than what is referred to as systemic narcissism. Therefore, anything that might be brought to the attention of such leadership that deviates from this idea or image that holds it together is to be immediately squashed, denied, and dismissed. For to do otherwise, there needs to be an active participation on the part of the leadership to “entangle” themselves in the lives of human beings that are not even considered counted among that which holds the system in place. To acknowledge these otherwise, would require an entirely different structure—much like the one CS rebelled against and left behind.

  56. Linda, You say it so well regarding the Moses Model. Since they pretend to take scripture so seriously, I wonder if any ever considered a “John the Baptist model” pastor. After all, Jesus said he was the greatest. But then again, John the Baptist said He (Jesus) must become greater and he (John) must become less. That idea wouldn’t seem to work for someone like CS and most CCs who love their power and attention. And John the Baptist also talked about repentance as well which doesn’t seem to go over real well either in many CCs.

  57. I feel sorry for Mark. He seems like a very sincere guy, giving his phone # etc. but like most CC Pastors, he’s got his head in the sand. We need to pray for him because if he believes what he’s selling, then when it crashes, he will be devastated.

    For the life of me I cannot see what keeps a sincere, God fearing man associated with CC.

  58. Covered, yes, Mark seems sincere and many are…until the rubber meets the road.

    It’s sincerity to a point. When the bad stuff, injustice and example after example after example are shown to guys like him (think Another Voice/Steve Wright CC Lake Elsinore) it quickly becomes “well, I’m different and I’m not responsible for the next guy”

    Calvary Chapel is a Church Group. These guys claim ties/bonds etc in one breath, when it’s beneficial…but then, “we’re all independent!” when it comes to church discipline and policing their own.

    It’s a nice Scheme. Chuck Smith is brilliant in a business sense. Give the public an appearance of accountability on one hand and an “affiliation” with CCCM/Chuck and Mothership to give credibility to the ‘individual’ CC franchise…and then let them run wild with the Moses Model and do whatever they want, treat folks however they want with zero impunity on the other hand…and have the ‘nice’ CC guys apologize for Calvary Chapel and put a smiley sincere face on the inaction and tolerance of rampant sin the Camp.

  59. Not correcting you at all Covered, please don’t take the next comment wrong, it’s just my opinion: I don’t feel sorry for the guys like Mark, I feel sorry for the folks that have (probably) a good experience at Mark’s CC Franchise…but then move out of his area and walk into the Golden Arches of the next CC and end up with one of the unaccountable scoundrels and have their world’s rocked.

  60. Alex, I am not offended at all and I respect your opinions. I just feel that like me, many were blindsided by the reality and severity of the problems. You were raised under a “CC family” so your position is much different than others who have been abused or even those who worked and served under the CC umbrella. You saw way more than the rest of us and the abuse you experienced was physical, emotional and not just spiritual like most of us. Most of us lost a church and you lost your mom and much more.

    As far as Mark goes, he brought a knife to a gunfight :) I believe he wants things to “be good” with his tribe and if he’s the real deal, he will be in for a rude awakening. He sounded sincere and I know how that feels. I bought into all the bs for a while like many others do and it will bother him to learn the truth.

  61. Good points Covered, and I respect your opinion as well.

  62. Ok.. folks.. slow down.. let’s try to keep it civil and friendly and lets try to take the issues one at a time.. @ Alex.. All I can tell you is that I had to do 70 pages of entry material.. content asking questions about my own theology, our church’s history and my own vision for the future… We are affiliated with Calvary Chapel.. I have a letter to prove it.. we also are on their website…. Regarding the law suit and what happened in Idaho…. Please tell me.. what happened in Idaho? I am in the dark here.. The CC’s are separate.. I think a court would have to show that Chuck or whatever senior leadership actually knew of the events in a given church and then chose to ignore them… some of these posts are calling me out for not acting…. These other churches are CC’s but I have no authority in any church but my own… Are you asking me to go out to these churches and conduct investigations?
    @ Hannah…. “why are you talking in CC terms vs individual churches?” …good question.. CC is an organization… I guess the question being discussed is.. is it a denomination? Can a church group create an organization that is more an affiliation than a denomination? I guess what you folks are saying is …no…. You ask what CC is to me..ok… to me CC is a large group of similarly minded churches.. they pool some resources for conferences.. they share a similar theology and similar philosophy of ministry….. as I said yesterday… this seems to be a semantic argument… now folks please understand.. I do not say “semantic argument” and then gloss over the obvious hurt that seems to have happened here… folks.. please tell me… how wide spread are you guys saying this is? How many CC’s have had the kinds of issues you are describing? I would stand against all of what you guys described so far.. the abuse you describe ( if it is so.) is grounds for immediate dismissal … the thing is the local church must do the dismissing I believe… the individual church board… we have ( at our church) written our own by laws.. They cover such issues..so the local board ( all made up of folks in our church BTW.. no absentee members.. no luminaries from out of state….)….the local board is empowered to immediately act to protect the flock…. Now the CC leadership can dismiss churches from the CC fellowship and I have seen this happen before…even so.. it is up to the local board to act…..
    @ Grateful…please forgive my ignorance.. I had not heard of Gino Geraci…..I read your account..that sounds awful…I do not know this Abeyta fellow either…. I cannot imagine that he would be permitted to pastor a CC again.. Were the accusations regarding immorality and theft ever admitted by Abeyta? Did the newspapers ever report on this? This is the first I am hearing of this.. I am sorry
    You say “ The CC Moses model structure has this built in danger….You as the leader cannot be challenged or fired by your board, your elders or anyone above you…but you can fire anyone”
    OK.. this is incorrect at our church (www.ccflagler.org).. Our by laws have various “no confidence” options and also a specific vote process for a pastor found to be in sin.. The Board can even block practical moves by a sitting senior pastor with a 75% vote.. The pastor need not be in sin.. the board may disagree with a move or direction that senior pastor wants to take.. and by our by-laws they can act upon this by a no confidence vote… Our board members and elders built the by laws as a team over the course of about 14 months..I think they protect the church and they provide an immediate avenue to dismiss pastors found in sin or found to be doing wacky things…. I have since found that not too many CC’s have such a document.. but we do… I guess in this sense we are a bit different but I have been told that we may operate our church government as we ( locally ) see fit.. also.. our church has about 115 folks give or take.. no pastors receive any pay.. we are getting ready to add our first paid position.. it will be an Admin Assistant to run the website and pay bills and do some local marketing stuff.. I work 9 to 5 during the week as do the other two staff pastors….
    @ et al., Guys I do love Calvary Chapel.. and acknowledge that there have been some problems in some of the churches.. but I love the Nazarene church too..I have lots of friends that are pastors with them.. and I have read about similar issues over there.. no church group.. denominational or otherwise… is perfect.. CC is very large and so perspective is needed.. I say act on these individual problems.. if there is a systemic problem.. then perhaps what you folks could do is pool this research you have been doing and do something with it…. Blogging is great and all.. but if this massive conspiracy.. or at least massive cover up that you see is so, then the question is ..what will you guys do? ..Here is what I will do.. I will do research as well.. I will be a Berean and “see if these things be so”….
    @ Alex.(44) . I am not peddling.. I have learned enough in here to know that you folks are bright and do not need to resort to swear words…you base your view on “seeing too much” (personally)… earlier in this string I was accused of pretty much the same thing.. making a judgment based largely on my own experience.. I think my experience is as valid as yours…..
    @ (45) Hanna.. easy… I think I qualified my statement by limiting to my own experience.. kinda like Alex did… While there must be a few exceptions.. all of the Calvary Plants that I have been exposed to start as Bible studies.. again my sample group is small.. I know folks in perhaps 20 plants out there and I am not aware of any of them receiving external support..I can say that our church plant never received a penny of external support and again.. to date all staff is volunteer…. I could be pig ignorant here too.. maybe other CC plants received support ..I am not sure.. all I can really do is offer my own limited but of course relatable and connected perspective
    @ Alex (46).. I don’t know the folks that you know,.. You allude to Greg and Raul being bad guys in your posting.. I have only met them a few times , I know Raul bit better than Greg..they both seemed very Godly and decent sorts.. what specifically are you referring to? BTW ..loving Jesus and Calvary Chapel are not mutually exclusive ..I think I am able to love both.. Alex be honest.. If you like, I can stop commenting .. I seem to be offending you.. if this is so just say so and I will not comment any more… If you are interested in a perspective from a CC pastor then .. great.. I am here…
    @ Grateful (47) .. I apologize…I do not mean to offend.. I do not mean to tell folks how to respond to their own abuse situations…I can request that folks not treat me as the abuser.. telling me I am responsible for the abuse in other CC churches is like blaming every Lieutenant in the Army for atrocities committed by a few men in Guantanamo Bay…. This is not reasonable
    Again I say… I do not see Chuck as “iron fisted”… I do know Chuck.. I have spoken to him several times over the years and I found him to be warn, encouraging, and pretty hands off….Chuck has never made one decision in our local church… nor has any other pastor apart from myself , my staff, and our Board
    @ Grateful (48)..again.. our Board sees every penny.. I receive no pay at all.. nor do any other pastors at our church.. I guess what you are trying to say is that the power is too centralized in too many Calvary Chapels… Consider this.. there are perhaps 30 to 50 or so very, very large CC’s.. the rest are medium and smaller sizes… I think you folks are portraying all CC affiliates as operating the same way as the way you describe some of these bad situations… most of the CC’s I know are actually pretty small.. many of the pastors still have full or part time jobs outside of church…. Gratefully our by-laws ( as I said earlier) have several provisions that create a quick avenue to dismiss pastors and/or other leaders in sin….. Our Board wrote them independent of any external CC influence and not guided by any CC documents… I am accountable to our Board.. and I like it that way… I make decisions in harmony with board and with the Pastors/Elders we have.. “many heads make better decisions”…
    @ Linda (51).. you say “you know this and that… you know and that as a CC Pastor you represent all Calvary Chapels” I humbly and respectfully disagree… I cannot represent 1600 different churches.. I barely can do my own church justice… You say that I know this and that.. but I admit that I do not.. I will commit to research these things.. please tell me which cases you folks feel are the most egregious and I will start there…
    @ Linda (52).. again… I see you disagree with the Moses Model..ok.. I get it.. again I am not sure our church qualifies as such.. Our board members are pastor nominated, and then board elected… they serve one year terms… we have a provision for them (individual board members) to challenge spending and direction decisions made by the pastor… yeah.. maybe we are not quite as Moses as traditional CC’s out there.. having said that… I do respect your view about church government and I have seen many different models used in different situations, that appear to be working pretty well… again Linda I see that you say you have “been there and done that” so maybe my being here is not helpful.. I will take your suggestion and spend time on this site.. I made it a favorite on my line up and I will read regularly.. seriously folks.. I am about harmony and unity.. if there are problems and there is evidence then God’s speed.. go after it….on school accreditation.. I have heard that the Veritas College (which I believe we are connected to) is either now accredited or in the process… and I have heard that folks have been discussing some sort of accreditation for Murrietta (CC) Bible College.. I personally hope it goes that way.. I think it would be great…..
    Folks ..thanks so much for allowing me to participate…I am feeling like I maybe more of an agitator than a help… I am being honest.. I thought perhaps hearing from a CC pastor in a blog like this might help bring constructive discussion ..much love and respect to you all
    Mark

  63. Mark,
    i truly appreciate you being brave enough to enter the no spin zone. My question to you for you own church is whether the members (or attenders) what ever you want to call the people that come to your church (excluding the board), do they have any say at all in what happens in your church? Can they vote on any issues at all? Can they bring a concern about a pastor to someone’s attention without them being viewed as the trouble maker? Are the members (excluding the board) part of church discipline procedures or is only the board officially involved? Who owns the assets at the church? Do the members or attenders (excluding the board) have any say in how any funds are spent? Thanks again for your willingness to dialog.

  64. Andrew, I understand and respect your questions/comments. I am curious though about something. Do you believe that the church/congregation should have say in how all the funds are spent?

    As a pastor (formerly a CC Assist pastor), I can tell you that asking permission to minister/pastor/teach/manage/shepherd will lead to disaster.

    I am allowed to spend up to $500 without anyone’s permission and have never been questioned about where funds go. Our books are open and all is viewable except my salary ( I will disclose if someone asks me face to face but that has never happened).

    There are times when I am approached to provide some sort of benevolence and I know for a fact that there are some who may say, “well, if he had a job…” or “no one helps us…” and I have to trust the Lord is guiding me in everything He’s called me to do including how to manage the funds. We have a monthly report (P & L) that goes to our Board Members who are also Elders so all is very transparent.

    I guess my point is at some point unless there is reason to believe otherwise, the pastor must be trusted to make some day to day decisions on spending. I thought of 1 Tim 1:12 when I asked you this question.

    I mean no disrespect, I was just curious…

  65. @ et al., ok I am impressed..in the time it took me to write my response you guys threw up new content.. so I will just finish up by responding to each one…
    @Covered (57) ..thanks.. if CC “crashes” the Lord is in control.. whatever He says is good with me.. Our church will go on… God willing..our church was established apart from CC and we affiliated after existing for about ..maybe 10 months or so…if CC fell apart..or changed to a place where we no longer felt called to be part of it.. then we would respectfully step out…
    @ Alex (58).. I find the word “scheme” to be unjust.. a scheme really implies a focus on money.. guys.. most CC’s out there operate on small budgets… my CC here in Flagler has many unemployed folks.. we are hurting just like most churches….
    @ Covered (60).. wow..a “knife to a gunfight?”.. do you really want to fight? I hope you are just kidding here… even so.. as many have pointed out,,. If there are abuse situations here.. and of course some of them.. like the one in California last year….. are in the courts now….we should be respectful and loving here folks.. no knives.. no gunfights.. just discourse..prayer.. learning … good things…. So chill on the violent metaphors .. you folks are saying my head is in the sand and I don’t want to know the truth.. but I am here.. learning… keep the discourse going folks.. that’s how things get better.

  66. @ Andrew (62)… ok.. in a word.. yes.. for example.. the naming of the church went to a attendee vote… we presented a few options.. and the folks voted and we went with their collective voice.. Also.. my e mail goes off every day with issues, suggestions… advice… concerns.. and I bring them to the elders and pastors and we discuss them and we respond to the folks right away….we rotate the 9 board positions we have… currently only two of the none potential board places are occupied by pastors.. the rest are church attendees.. this is a pretty good representative body…

  67. Andrew, I wanted to add that while I am not affiliated with CC anymore, I do have a CCSP as well as another Board Member from a neighboring church that is considered a “huge” church. During a Board meeting last month, the question came up on whether I as the pastor was protected enough regarding finances. You see, I am not on any bank acct., I have no church credit cards but I do carry a church debit card. The response was unanimous that if I asked permission or approval for all we do then we were not trusting that the Lord is leading us. Now, if for any reason a red flag comes up regarding money, there are at least 5 godly men who would know immediately.

    The reason we are set up like this is to protect the church, protect me the pastor and to be able to do whatever the Lord leads us to do.

  68. @ Covered (64).. same here.. I am authorized to spend up to $300.00 at my own discretion. Beyond that I need voted board approval with a Quorum of 2/3 and a ratification of 60%

  69. Mark said, “Covered (60).. wow..a “knife to a gunfight?”.. do you really want to fight? I hope you are just kidding here… even so.. as many have pointed out,,. If there are abuse situations here.. and of course some of them.. like the one in California last year….. are in the courts now….we should be respectful and loving here folks.. no knives.. no gunfights.. just discourse..prayer.. learning … good things…. So chill on the violent metaphors .. you folks are saying my head is in the sand and I don’t want to know the truth.. but I am here.. learning… keep the discourse going folks.. that’s how things get better.”

    Mark my point was this. I have known Alex for a couple of years now. I am well aware of what has been going on with CC. I have friends on both sides of the abuse issue and the reason for my “knife to a gunfight” comment (which by the way is just a silly phrase) was that I feel you are sort of the new kid on the block and may not fully realize the problem. To give your email and phone # is something that those who are involved would not normally do. From reading your responses which by the way I agree and respect some of them, but you clearly don’t know the whole story. That’s all, no offense. By the way, just by using your name and responding here shows me that you have good intentions but just know that your tribe has caused major damage and there are those here who won’t stop until CC falls or changes and it’s going to get uglier.

  70. Mark Convoy, then what is CCOF for? And now the CC Association?

    I don’t expect you personally to go investigate, but what the heck is Roger Wing and now Don McClure and the Regional Cardinals for? The letter sent to you CC Franchisees states they’re there to “handle problems”…well I’m guessing that means they’re there to help silence and fix problems for the CC Franchisee Pastor rather than help the Victims of the CC Franchisee Pastor b/c CCOF and the CC Association have done nothing other than collect information from victims and then put up a Stone Wall….that is unless Chuck Smith has personal beef. In that case, Chuck steps in with the full weight of CCOF etc and makes stuff happen.

    As an ‘independent’ CC pastor Scripture calls you not to “associate” with the sins of others, but to keep yourself pure. There’s a lot of undealt with sin in Camp CC and you’re “associated” with it via Affiliation/Association.

    You could lobby CC Mothership / the CC Association Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure to make reforms and to deal with Problems in a just manner like they say they’re there for in their letter. Words have meaning.

    John Higgins CC Tucson also argued through his attorney that CC had an “Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure” that meant CC dealt with it’s own Problems internally and that the courts should butt out. Another example of CC having it both ways. “Independent” when they want, yet “Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure” when they don’t want outsiders intervening in their business.

    It’s really called lying to the public. It’s also called being unjust and running the Church like a family business / Amway.

  71. Covered wrote: Andrew, I understand and respect your questions/comments. I am curious though about something. Do you believe that the church/congregation should have say in how all the funds are spent?

    If they don’t have a say in how ANY of the funds are spent, at a minimal they should at least have a say in who is on the board that does makes these decisions. Voting with your feet is not the answer as Alex has shown the problem with this over and over again. The congregation needs to be involved in the polity of the church. This is a no brainer to me but I have never seen anything like this in CC. It goes against their DNA.

    When you talk about disaster, I get the feeling you are referring to inefficiencies that will creep into the church. I think these inefficiencies are why Chuck Smith invented the Moses Model in the first place. I am not saying the congregation should have a say for every dollar that is spent or even what the pastor’s salary should be but Calvary Chapel’s have no membership and the congregation as a whole has no power what so ever to hold any elder, pastor or board member accountable. There is no mechanism in place at all and this is what I am getting at. I can say this because I go to a church that has no pastor but we are currently looking for one. Its amazing to me that CC would not consider us a church because we have no senior pastor. It is definitely something to consider. The pastor doesn’t make one a church, the congregation does.

    Covered also wrote: I am allowed to spend up to $500 without anyone’s permission and have never been questioned about where funds go. Our books are open and all is viewable except my salary ( I will disclose if someone asks me face to face but that has never happened).

    Is this $500 per year, per day, per month, per week, per occasion, etc…? I would say $500 is a lot of money if its not part of your salary and you don’t need to give an account for it. That is just my personal opinion.

  72. Mark,

    What Alex says @ #70 is the truth. I hope that you see you are not being picked on but it’s a big, big deal that will come to a head.

    Just so you know, there are many who hate Alex from your tribe who spend a lot of time lurking here and posting your name may become an issue from your tribe. Just sayin… You may want to be careful speaking about how you want to see justice etc. some may not see your good intentions the way others do.

  73. Mark Convoy, Skip Heitzig is a well documented scoundrel who screwed over his church and Pastor Pete Nelson and is on the CC Association Board. There is no integrity in the Calvary Chapel Brand. Chuck Smith relies on you little guys to spread the Brand and promote his version of Christianity and the Big FIsh in CC like Heitzig and others feed at the trough and make tons of money. Heck, my step-dad alone makes a combined income with benefits of over $130,000 per year. Again, it’s like Amway in a sense. The higher you climb the more money you make. I don’t know of one Big Guy who doesn’t make a ton of money. The pikers like you, who are many, just get buy…but you’re suckered into a bad Brand that is so full of lies and corruption and adulteries and abuses etc that are kept from you that you muddle along saying how much you love Calvary Chapel even though you’ve heard very little of the bad stuff.

    Scripture is either truth or it isn’t.

    “Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but rather expose them”

    “If the Pastor remains in sin, rebuke him publicly in the presence of all. so the others may stand in fear”

    And then there’s 1 Corinthians 5

    “5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]”

    CC Leadership / CCOF / CC Association / Chuck Smith covers over the sins and hides the stuff and lies to the public my omission and commission.

    That’s the “Church” you are a part of Mark Convoy. That’s the “Church” you Associate/Affiliate with voluntarily….and Scripture says you shouldn’t.

    Or, Scripture can be picked through and relativized and there’s really nothing of substance we can claim and the Liberal Theologians are correct and you strict Fundamentalists are complete hypocrites as you pick and choose and parse and find all manner of excuse to dodge the plain reading/meaning of Scripture.

  74. Covered, put it this way, If I new my pastor could spend $500 any time he wanted to without anyone questioning him, that will be $500 less I would put in the offering plate. The congregation needs to wake up and be made aware. If the pastor already has a good salary, why does he get to put his hands in the cookie jar for more without accountability? Just my two cents.

  75. Andrew, for the record, I do not agree with the way CC handles their books or the Moses Model. In fact, our by-laws are intentionally written to eliminate the atrocities that we all know exist with CC.

    “Is this $500 per year, per day, per month, per week, per occasion, etc…? I would say $500 is a lot of money if its not part of your salary and you don’t need to give an account for it. That is just my personal opinion”

    It’s per occurence and in 2 years I have exercised that option twice. Don’t forget, all records are available by way of reports given directly to each Board member. Also, it was my idea to put a spending limit and the Board came up with the amount. There is not one dime spent without at least 5 others knowing about it through a report provided by a book keeper.

    What I want to avoid is asking permission from “busy bodies” who don’t agree with helping feed others, helping with others pay a utility bill, helping someone travel to a sick or dying relative. Some decisions need to be made on the spot and to take a poll for every decision would hinder ministry.

  76. And guess what, when I see a need in the church that the church is not helping with, sometimes I put less in the offering plate to cover these out of pocket expenses. Why cannot the pastors do the same thing?

  77. Andrew, I don’t understand your question if it was intended for me?

  78. Covered, yes it was intended for you. I see no need for any debit card for a pastor for church petty expenses. If pastors are giving back to the church with their own salary than this would never be an issue. If you are having trouble getting re-imbursed with a legitimate expense then just put less in the offering plate. Too many pastors however think that because they get their salary from the offerings that they don’t need to give back to the same offerings. If we are only talking about $500 than this shouldn’t be that big of a deal.

  79. Andrew,

    Re your #74. The $500 limit is strictly for ministry or emegencies. I cannot use that money for myself and it has nothing to do with my salary.

    What cookie jar? Who’s hands? It’s God’s money to use for His purpose and it’s not my money and if you read any of my posts, you would see that I am not on any bank account so for me to use the $500 for emergencies, someone must write a check and another must sign it which means there are at least 3 people who are aware that I’m spending that money and there will be 5 who know when the next report comes out on the first of the month. Finally ANYONE from our church whether your a Board member or not has access to our books anytime.

  80. I hope Mark comes back.
    I still don’t understand it when he says “I love CC’.
    Seems like a bumper sticker to me.
    What does he “Love” about CC.
    It just sounds so trite to me.

    Does it bother him when a CC Pastor can buy a vacation home, go on fancy family vacations (aka “missions trips”), own a sportscar that 95% of their congregation could never afford, purchase real estate with the church $ without disclosure, receieve large Christmas bonuses, and live a celebrity lifestyle without asking his tithers if it is OK (since they are struggling to just pay their own mortgage)?

    By the way, what church did he attend before he was “planted”?

  81. Hi Mark, work is preventing me from making a thoughtful response so I’ll post later. Thanks for your engagement.

  82. Hannah, I agree and hope that Mark comes back as well. I just hope that he’s careful about what he thinks he can do.

    When I first got saved in 1993, I thought that Chuck and the others were like God’s right hand men… Then I learned like you and many others that they are just men who screw up like everyone else. Maybe Mark needs to be around his tribe more to see the truth. The truth is, there are as many bad apples as there are good ones. This is why I support Alex for not standing idle. He cares about the victims and that’s important.

  83. Covered,

    There is a kind of haze that is over people who are involved in CC.
    I had it.
    I remember someone telling me that if you stay in the “box” you are OK..but you can’t go outsid eof the “box”.
    I didnt get it then. I do now. Funny that CCers will say “Don’t put God in a box”, yet they are in their own boxes.
    I also remember being in CC and hearing from moms “Don’t put your kid in public school or the enemy will snatch them!”.
    I bought into the paranoia and took them out and put them in private Christian school.
    The worst investment I ever made spiritually and education wise.
    One of my biggest regrets was buying into the cult mentality of thos ewho attended my church. IT nearly ruined our family. It has been very hard to recover.
    I found that only on the “outside” could I think with my brain instead of having everything filtered through my what Pastor ____ said.
    Listening to his CD’s, I hear brainwashing techniques I never realized when I was “under” the spell….
    The music was hypnotic, and the messages were centered aroudn his crafty charismatic personality. You liked him and you believed everything he said. He made suggestions and you receieved them…nuf said…

  84. Hannah,

    I agree. It’s sad and I really do hope that change comes for them. I don’t want to see them completely blow up but I do want to see the changes that we speak of here. It’s not too late for Chuck to step in and leave a great legacy.

  85. Covered,

    Why would CS “step in” when he set up the system?

  86. Hannah,

    I want him to step in because it’s the right thing to do. Not because of him but because of His God. I also want him to finish strong. I want him to repent and know that he is right in God’s eyes. I want for him all that I want for me.

    I believe with all my heart that God has so much grace left for us that He is allowing Chuck to draw another breath wanting Chuck to repent. It’s the same for you and I.

    I don’t hope these things because Chuck is great, I want them because God is great! The bitterness that has come from all of us has caused many of us (me included), to lose track of who I am in Christ and where God wants me. I can’t focus on Him, His Word or His flock if I’m angry. So for those reasons, I want Chuck to finish well and do the right thing. I bet he’s sorry for the system that he set up. At least I want to believe he’s sorry…

  87. Covered stated: “He’s called me to do including how to manage the funds. We have a monthly report (P & L) that goes to our Board Members who are also Elders so all is very transparent.”

    This may have already been commented upon by others. Haven’t read through all the comments since this was posted by you. But wanted to say something before it slipped my mind.

    This is not being transparent beyond you and your board memeber. Provide the monthly report to the body of Christ, then you will be working beyond the Moses Model. We know why you are set up financially the way that you are: to protect yourself and the board against liability. So much for trusting the Lord and making the attendees privy to and being able to participate in the more “important” decisions concerning finances and church discipline.

    Covered, you also stated:

    “The reason we are set up like this is to protect the church, protect me the pastor and to be able to do whatever the Lord leads us to do.

    This same statement is given by CC. How do you know what the Lord wants we you limit the voices of those who are in Christ and are treated as merely attendees? Also, protect the church—-in what way, not to have to use the offerings for legal defenses?

    Just wondering.

  88. Alex, “It’s really called lying to the public. It’s also called being unjust and running the Church like a family business / Amway.

    That’s the phrase that kept running through my own head, except my memory kept saying it was a type of Pyramid Scam.

    I think about how the “leaders” will make all the decisions declaring that God has given them some type of special insight and to involve anyone beyond the “board.” That they know what is best and that those who are placed in their care lack the vision they have in maintaining the kingdom, whoops, I mean, company, darn, I mean, well I can’t say the church, because they don’t even exits as shareholders, or members, and much less as voice, even crying in the wilderness.

  89. Covered @ 86,

    I’m not discounting your perspective and recognize it can be valid; however, I am simply saying that there is another perspective … Jesus was able to be angry at the den of thieves and still love and do his Father’s business.

    For me, personally, I’ve been able to call sin out, hate the sin and love the sinner. I strongly believe that 1Timothy 5:20 applies to much of what is said on this blog.

  90. Andrew, Thank you—my thoughts as well.

    To say that congregants should have no involvement in these issues is ludicrous and very condescending at best. Funny, how the leadership don’t mind taking in the offering, then from that point forwards, it becomes the property of the leadership to do with what they deemed is beneficial is like treating the givers as a commodity, not the body of Christ, which the leadership is to incorporate into every aspect of church affairs. Not treat them as if they are children or without common sense and wisdom. I mean, they made the money, didn’t they and now they want all of it to be brought into the storehouse and they expect what is brought in and how it is used will be readily identified and disclosed.

  91. Hannah, as much as I’d like to join Covered in his hope for Chuck, I have to discipline myself to remember that as long as he has breath there is hope of repentance. But, like you, the understanding that Chuck made up this Moses Model, has lived it, has propagated it, has defended it, and shows no signs of recognizing the ills of it, really doesn’t make me hopeful that I’ll see Chuck’s repentance in this lifetime. But I will rejoice if I have to eat these words!

  92. Andrew and Linda, I agree … the church is all the people, not just an affiliated leadership. All involved in giving and receiving money need to be a part of the decisions. Checks and balances are necessary. Being able to do whatever one person thinks God is leading for efficiency sake is not a good check or balance.

    The congregation should be given the right and the place to push back when poor financial decisions seem to be apparent. Any difficulties of having to work out lesser financial issues is just the price to be paid to preserve unity, lay the groundwork for true trust, and keep the leaders from the power that corrupts when they have all the control of the finances.

  93. Alex, wasn’t Don Stewart divorced by his wife and shortly afterwards he shows up with a new wife. Wasn’t he dating this person while he was till married and ding it right under the nose of Chuck Smith and others. Didn’t D.S. bring her to some conference and introduce her to all the CC Pastors and didn’t they congratulate them and then permit him to continue in his position as a CC Pastor?

  94. Covered stated: ‘What I want to avoid is asking permission from “busy bodies” who don’t agree with helping feed others, helping with others pay a utility bill, helping someone travel to a sick or dying relative. Some decisions need to be made on the spot and to take a poll for every decision would hinder ministry

    That is why a benevolent fund is set up.

    I do not understand why the Pastor salary is not disclosed. Heck, I have to disclose mine. For sure, if my pastor had to work or needed tires or a vacation, or making under the average salary for other pastors I would be more apt to contribute more by earmarking it. The Pastor salary is part of the budget, therefore, it needs to be disclosed to the entire body. Not kept a secret in lrear they will not be able to cover their living expenses and certainly not to enable to accumulate a weath when people are in need in the church.

  95. Correction: noodles boiling over—LOL

    My statement #88

    “I think about how the “leaders” will make all the decisions declaring that God has given them some type of special insight and to involve anyone beyond the “board:” That they know what is best, and that those who are placed in their care lacks the vision they have in maintaining the kingdom, whoops, I mean, company, darn, I mean, well I can’t say the church, because they don’t even exist, beyond the Sr. Pastor and the board He has elected, nor do they exist as shareholders, or members, and much less as a voice, therefore, not heard, nor counted, nor recognized as eve a voice crying in the wilderness.

    Mark, this is financial stuff is only the tip of the iceberg. What do you know and how have you been trained to handle the practicing of sexual immorlity, spousel and child abuse, and could you ID a person who exhibits the charatereristics of a Antisocial, Narcissist, and Psychopath. Because if you cannot, then most likely you would not be able to identify a wolf who is a Sr. Pastor or any other who was acting out these types of behavior towards a sheep under the call of your position. In this, I would heartedly recommend you contact Pastor Jeff after reading his letter to Pastor and read the book by Lundy Bancroft—-that is, if you really care about CC body of Christ, not just “CC.”

    Mark, I really don’t mean to come across as an ogre towards you. It’s just that these things have been being perpetrated for so long and the some of the responses you have given are the same old, same ole. A lot of talk but no cross the board action taken to stop them. Just a lot oxygen being used up and nothing that indicates anything has changed. Alex made a an excellent point regarding the Regional boards that have been established to do what? Handle problems—-really, what kind. Certainly nothing indcates anything that has to do with training regarding domestic violence and child abuse. Not does it address such things as the rampant practices of sexual immorality that is committed right under the nose of the leadership and by the leadership themselves.

  96. Linda said,

    “This is not being transparent beyond you and your board memeber. Provide the monthly report to the body of Christ, then you will be working beyond the Moses Model. We know why you are set up financially the way that you are: to protect yourself and the board against liability. So much for trusting the Lord and making the attendees privy to and being able to participate in the more “important” decisions concerning finances and church discipline.”

    You don’t know me from Adam but it appears as though you have jumped to some unfounded conclusions. I don’t know how to answer your comment other than to say that every quarter, I do a Q & A with the entire body and there are no restrictions or limits of the topic. A financial report is available to anyone who wants to see one, whenever they want to see one. Other than missions, the church decides what ministry, outreaches, programs we are involved in.

    Covered, you also stated:

    “The reason we are set up like this is to protect the church, protect me the pastor and to be able to do whatever the Lord leads us to do.

    This same statement is given by CC. How do you know what the Lord wants we you limit the voices of those who are in Christ and are treated as merely attendees? Also, protect the church—-in what way, not to have to use the offerings for legal defenses?

    Again, I’m not Calvary Chapel and you have jumped to conclusions. Voices are NOT limited but I also have a voice and I am not the only voice. Attendees? Do you mean the church? The church is made up of the people who attend not the pastor and not the building. As far as my “protect the church” comment, with a board of directors in place that is very active, there has never been an issue with mismanagement of funds, hiding funds, overspending or any compensation to me besides my paycheck. The board protects the body.

    Linda, I’m sorry if you have been burned by pastors who have mismanaged funds but not every pastor is a thief.

  97. Grateful,

    Your # 89 is spot on! I think that you would agree that the Holy Spirit is big enough to convict Chuck to do the right thing. My point is that as long as he is breathing, the opportunity is there to repent. I have known Chuck for many years and I don’t believe he intended for the “movement” to end up in the condition it is today. There have been many sinners who repent on their death bed and even if that’s how it ends, we will all be better off. This is just my opinion.

  98. Linda, I don’t know what I said that set you off but thanks for allowing me to explain…

    Covered stated: ‘What I want to avoid is asking permission from “busy bodies” who don’t agree with helping feed others, helping with others pay a utility bill, helping someone travel to a sick or dying relative. Some decisions need to be made on the spot and to take a poll for every decision would hinder ministry”

    “That is why a benevolent fund is set up.”

    We do have a benevolent fund set up. Not only do we have a benevolent fund with a husband and wife who run it, I also can give benevolence. My point was that there are those who would disagree with helping less fortunate people even in their own church! That’s just the nature of some people.

    “I do not understand why the Pastor salary is not disclosed. Heck, I have to disclose mine. For sure, if my pastor had to work or needed tires or a vacation, or making under the average salary for other pastors I would be more apt to contribute more by earmarking it. The Pastor salary is part of the budget, therefore, it needs to be disclosed to the entire body. Not kept a secret in lrear they will not be able to cover their living expenses and certainly not to enable to accumulate a weath when people are in need in the church.”

    If you read my post, I said that if anyone asked me face to face what my salary is, I would have no problem disclosing it. By design, my salary is based on the low side of the community average. That means that I make less than most who attend our church. For the record, I would go without a paycheck before I would let anyone go without food, electricity or gas. Finally, I assure you that I’m not a pastor for the purpose of accumulating wealth. I live in a small town with people who make very little money.

  99. Mark Convoy,

    You seem to be a nice enough guy but naive and ignorant.

    I don’t want to give you any ideas but I know of a CC that started out like yours, with good guys and solid bylaws with meaningful accountability, but overtime and some disagreements with the board, in fact the disagreement with the board was so sharp and the SP saying he was going to do what he wanted anyway that one of the board members told the senior pastor “you better check the bylaws”(this seems to have clued in the SP that there were meaningful bylaws), so this CCSP began to learn and understand from other CC pastors the value in the Moses Model, and very subtly the board was dismantled and ostensibly an out of town board was installed, then the bylaws were changed to the Moses Model and a new local board was installed.

    Problem solved and a “very simple, not a complex bureaucracy” form of government was put in place.

    Ironically this CCSP also had a $500 without board approval spending allowance when this was not kept it started a “sharp disagreement”.

  100. Covered @ 79 wrote:
    Re your #74. The $500 limit is strictly for ministry or emegencies. I cannot use that money for myself and it has nothing to do with my salary.

    The point that Linda and I and others have been making is why do you get to make these choices? Why can’t the average attender make these same choices if they also see ministry needs and an emergency? What is so special about pastoral office that they should have this perk? If it is a healthy church, I would hope most of the attendees would be doing the Lord’s work and not solely the pastor. It makes no sense that a pastor should be able to put their hands on the offering to use the way they see fit. Again, myself as a non pastor and I see an emergency or I see a ministry need, I don’t have this option.

  101. Or consider this. Pastor’s refrigerator breaks. Its an emergency. Pastor opens his house up every Friday for fellowship and they use refrigerator for snacks. The refrigerator costs $500. Pastor puts refrigerator on the church debit card. Justification is that this is for an emergency and its ministry use. All those on the board use the debit card in the same type of way for emergency and ministry use so no one blinks an eye.

  102. Covered

    Nothing set me off but the red flags you were raising certainly went up. I have already commented on these , as has Grateful and Andrews. But I don’t hear you really grabbing ahold of them.

    You have an opportunity as a pastor to take note and to make the changes that would enable the entire body of Christ to be more than children and pew warmers waiting for you and a few to make decisions regarding many things that impacts them directly. You also, as a pastor have an opportunity to sofften the hearts of those who hearts are hardened against helping those in the body who are in needs. The love of Christ is to nurtured in Word and in Deed, and it is to start in the body of Christ, first and foremost. So for those who are resentful towards helping others, I would say to them that God gave us each talents, skils, resources, and so much more like a hug, or time, or a phone that is to be used for those who are in need. To do otherwise is essentially hiding ones talents under the busehel or buildinging an extra barn for things tht they held back, accummulated to gaze upon and to draw attention to themselves. No person in the church should ever need to be hungry or without a place to sleep—-period, Agapao, is the the ultimate gift of the Lord. So for those “busy bodies” it difficult that there are more them than others who would not be of such mindset, therefore, to keep this information from the general body just doesn’t fly to well in my book.

  103. Q made some good points.

    All Pastors start out with a day job until or if they “make it big”.
    The day job doesn’t impress me. It’s obvious. And why not? Paul had one.
    IS that something to be applauded?

    With all this talk of disclosure, if a SP isn’t ashamed or embarassed about their many investments, prime real estate properties, personal assets, salery, bonus’, etc, then why not disclose it for all to see?

    It is convenient that most of the CC attenders have been brainwashed to believe they have no right to this information and just the thought of it in their minds is sin.
    Sometimes my Pastor would announce from the pulpit his many “connections” in terms of services. I kind of figured he was getting these services and items for free because it was advertising for them….so manybe that was his way of shuttting up the sceptics (or just getting things for free) Either way, we are not his slaves and working for him to accumulate riches on earth for himself, and properties his kids can inherit, all the while being told by his financial groups that we ought to include in our will an inheritance to his church before our own kids.
    What hypocrisy!!!!!

  104. To Everyone:

    I actually posted something different but it went somewhere in out internet land. In reading over my last comment, there were many typos which made reading a bit of a chore. So, here it is in better form. I hope. Please once again, keep in mind due to being heaing impaired from birth, I frequently forget to put the correct ending (ed, s ) on things. Thanks ahead of time for being patient and forgiving in this.

    “You have an opportunity as a Pastor to take note of what is being shared, and to make the changes that would enable the entire body of Christ to be more than children and pew warmers waiting for you and a few to make decisions regarding many things that impacts them directly.

    You also, as a Pastor, have an opportunity to sofften the hearts of those hearts that hardened against helping those in the body who are in needs. Instead of just throwing the baby out with the bat water and saying that the budget and the decision making processes witl be kept between you and a few other “men.”

    The love of Christ is to nurtured in Word and in Deed, and it is to start in the body of Christ, first and foremost. So for those who are resentful towards helping others, I would say to them that God gave us each talents, skills, resources, and so much more like a hug, or time, or a phone call, that is to be used for those who are in need. To do otherwise is really more of an indictment on the position of their own hearts towards others and regarding how what is in the storehouse ought to be used. To hinder or to complain about someone being helped turns my stomach. Yet, i know there are many like this, including CC leadership for the past 45 years. I have not just been privy to experience this for myself but have wathch week by week and year by year. And if you were to ask me what I hate, I would say watching anyone go away hungry from church as others speak about gong out to lunch with their family or friends.

    So, I guess the point I’m trying to make this morning is this:

    Pstors ought not ue the fe who would resent the giving of what’s in the sotehouse to those in the body of Christ who are in need. At the same time, Pastor ought to be teaching and softening the hearts of thse who ratehr hide theirtalents under the bushel, or build an extra barn to store the things which they have managed to accummulate, to be used someday, to gaze upon, to draw attention to themselves, or to just give them a sense of security or superiority over or towards others. these are hearts that Jesus spoke of frequently, so to used this as a justification to keeping things as they are in “your church,” I would say, it doesn’t fly in the light of day on this site.

    So for those “busy bodies” it difficult for me to believe that there are more of them than those who are under the impression that these things are being handle, but in reality have not a clue due to their lack or inability to participate in budgetary conserns or affairs of the church, And the reason they are not involved is because although its okay to take their offerings, it’s not okay for them to participate in these decisions or to have the information because they are, “busy bodies.”

    How utterly disrespectufl and arrogant for any pastor and board to take this position. And quite frankly stupid we all are as the body of Christ to go along with it.

    So, nope nothing set off, but the red flags went up again. I think Grateful and Andrew said the rest and I hope and pray that you and other Pastor will reconsider and make the changes that breaks down these walls of secrecy and abuses that separates the leadership from the rest of the body of Christ. And that you would do it soon.

  105. Just randomly (or guided by the H.S.) opened and read ( NLT version) Nahum.
    Wow.
    Just a follow up to my last post:
    “no wonder I am your enemy” declares the Lord almighty. “And now I will lift your skirts so all the earth will see your nakedness and shame. I will cover you with filth and show the world how vile you really are. All who see you will shrink back in horror and say “Nineveh lies in utter ruin. Yet no one anywhere will regret your destruction”.

    In addition to application to Pastors/churches…..With the elections around the corner, and outcome almost certain, …we really need to pray for the United States, and Israel… and this countries support of her.

  106. Good Morning, Hannah!!!

    “we are not his slaves and working for him to accumulate riches on earth for himself, and properties his kids can inherit, all the while being told by his financial groups that we ought to include in our will an inheritance to his church before our own kids.
    What hypocrisy!!!!!

    Don’t mind if I join you in this rebuke, do you————what filth and disgust this brings to my attention, the utter arrogance and mockery made of the Cross, My Lord, My God, and My Saviror———this isn’t even skimming from the top like Judas did, it is leaving the church body in great needs as a result of not tending to the flock, not protecting them and certainly not feeding, clothing, or housing those who have lost even their family, spouses, and children due to a lack of accountability, church discipline, and ministry of reconciliation. LOL now my dander is up just as Jesus was when He got His whip out and turn over the tables of the money changers. How dare you raise your hands to the Lord when one of us is out here because such a pastor and those he affilliate with will not lift a finger to repent and to do what should have been done long ago. Urrrrgh.

  107. Hannah,

    We were both commenting at the same exact time, What more, I wasn’t reading Nahum. I was just listening to my heart and expressing my thoughts. So, it is my belief that as God was speaking to you through His Word, He affirmed this in my own heart to bear witness to what you just spoke from His Word.

  108. # 108 “So, I guess the point I’m trying to make this morning is this:

    Pstors ought not ue the fe who would resent the giving of what’s in the sotehouse to those in the body of Christ who are in need.

    Correction: Pastors ought not use the few who would resent the giving of what’s in the storehouse to those in the body of Christ who are in need as a justification as a means to “avoid” the busy bodies.

    Now read back to #108

  109. I mean, #104.

    My apologies once again.

  110. Good morning Andrew,

    “The point that Linda and I and others have been making is why do you get to make these choices? Why can’t the average attender make these same choices if they also see ministry needs and an emergency? What is so special about pastoral office that they should have this perk? If it is a healthy church, I would hope most of the attendees would be doing the Lord’s work and not solely the pastor. It makes no sense that a pastor should be able to put their hands on the offering to use the way they see fit. Again, myself as a non pastor and I see an emergency or I see a ministry need, I don’t have this option.”

    If you read my posts carefully, you will see that we have a benevolence fund. We also allow ANYONE who wants to help another person contact the benevolence ministry folks or myself in order to help someone else. We have never once denied anyone who needed help and never has anyone been told that only I can make these decisions! In addition to this system, I am allowed as determined by the board of directors to make a financial decision up to $500 at my own descretion for any type of benevolence that I determine is necessary. Here’s a simple example… last night before Bible Study I was contacted by a young couple who shared that they needed to make a $400 repair to their car and if they couldn’t do this, they had no way to get to work or get the kids to school. Because of how we are set up, I was able to tell the book keeper to prepare a check to the mechanic for the amount needed. Now, I believe that these folks would not have been comfortable sharing this need with anyone other than myself. Let’s assume that they did share this information with someone else and that person contacted me, I would have done the same thing.

    Please don’t assume that I am underestimating the discernment of the church. Please don’t assume that I have my hand in the cookie jar and I will state again that ANYONE can make the call to me, a board member or the benevolence ministry for help AND I do not have to approve that benevolence. Finally, I do not think that I my position as a pastor is special nor have I seen any financial perks, benefits, vacations, cars, houses, clothes and I do not have medical insurance, I pay for my own phone and our home is open for men, women, couples and families should anyone from church need shelter or food.

    We are not a Calvary. This church was started by a Calvary split. I am on your side!

  111. Covered-

    Thanks for your contribution here. I seem to remember you posting when the blog first started.
    You appear to be the real deal.

    It takes a lot of discernment when helping others financially.
    Even for individuals like ourselves who come across those in need all the time and have to really pray about who to help.
    Sometimes you help someone when the Lord is allowing them to struggle for His own chastisement or growth and trust in Him. Helping woudl be a hindrance to this individual. When you are merciful, you can also be taken advantage of.
    I have heard from several individuals that they were brushed off at church while others who did not even attend were helped. You need to feed your own house first.

    Many of us going through trials of all sorts, especially health trials, depend on prayer and God’s answers to it. We are not supposed to supply every need. Benevolence is a difficult ministry because of this.

  112. Good morning Hannah,

    I lurk often here and it breaks my heart hearing what has happened to so many. It just seems as though if some of these folks would be willing to become a little bit vulnerable (which is very hard after being abused), then they would see that they can receive and give the kind of love that they so desire. Chuck Smith told me to my face that my 15 year old son was not welcome back at “his” school… It broke my heart. A cool friend immediately told me that my eyes need to be on the big “C” (Christ) and not the little “c” (Chuck). I never expected much out of Chuck after that and realized that I was wrong in how I see and judge people. This story is not even the reason we left Calvary but that’s another story.

    My point is that not all churches and pastors are dirty. If we (victims) can be a little vulnerable, not expect any more from others than what they give then it’s possible to trust your pastor and love your church.

    Finally, it was the pain and suffering that caused David to be the “sweet psalmist” and not the fighting and bitterness. The potential for many here to do wonderful things for God’s kingdom is endless if they let the bitterness go. God is providing a way for the pain to be used for His glory and what a great opportunity to suffer as His Son did!

  113. Covered,

    Thanks for your explanation. I don’t mean to put you in the same camp as CC and that is not my intention and hope I don’t come across that way. I haven’t really been in a good church in so long that I am a bit jaded.

    With this in mind though, here are my concerns. First: There appears to be no limit to the amount that can be given from the benevolence fund. When you live in a very populated very poor area of the country your benevolence fund will run out very quickly with the tremendous needs in the area. Second: Who determines what are true needs, vs. wants vs. someone’s true need caused by their own irresponsibility. Suppose this young couple that you authorized to give $400 to fix their car truly had a need. I don’t deny this. I don’t mean to pick on this couple but what if this couple also spends over $400 a month on cigarettes and alcohol to support their habit. Can the church really justify giving this couple $400 to fix their car. I just use this as an example to drive home a point.

    I honestly don’t think any discretion on how the benevolence fund should be spent should be given to any pastor. I know I am a bit jaded, but if the leadership would set the standard for this, we would be a lot better off. If you do need someone to make these decisions, I don’t think it should be the pastor or a board member. It should be someone the congregation votes on who is known to be a very responsible person with money.

  114. Covered,

    I agree with much of what you have said with one exception..
    If God had meant for Israel to just suffer and not repent, He would not have sent all the Prophets to her to her. We can also say that the Prohets were meant to be chastened by God because it was also His plan to miold them when Israel rejected the warnings and killed the Prophets.
    I think sometimes we can carry the sovereignty of God too far.
    What you are basically telling me is that you need not rebuke ungodly leadership (and in your case CS), you just need to thank God that He is allowing these men to be used for His glory by destroying your kids faith and causing suffering in your family as a result of it.
    Well then, why even speak out when your daughter is raped by one of these Pastors?
    Surely, God will use that for her good as well?

    Maybe now you can see where I am going with this.
    An extreme case, but to prove a point.

  115. Covered @112
    “Finally, it was the pain and suffering that caused David to be the “sweet psalmist” and not the fighting and bitterness. The potential for many here to do wonderful things for God’s kingdom is endless if they let the bitterness go. God is providing a way for the pain to be used for His glory and what a great opportunity to suffer as His Son did!”

    Would you say that to a child who has been raped by a Pastor?
    Why even prosecute the pedophile?

  116. Covered,

    Reading what you wrote to Hannah. Really, after all that has been shared this is what you would have us all to do in light of what Scripture has told to do, Covered?

    We are not bitter. We are righteously indignant at the failure of evil not be exposed and dealt with.

    We are part of the body of Christ and we are warning others while also bringing to the table the truth to enable all to be able to take part in the church as a whole and not to enable or to turn a blind eye to those things that are not even to be a part of the church. We do not worship any man, but instead warn others of the men who follow in error after him and the Mose’s Model.

    So, I am now quite concerned about what you just shared.

    ” not expect any more from others than what they give then it’s possible to trust your pastor and love your church.

    Finally, it was the pain and suffering that caused David to be the “sweet psalmist” and not the fighting and bitterness. The potential for many here to do wonderful things for God’s kingdom is endless if they let the bitterness go. God is providing a way for the pain to be used for His glory and what a great opportunity to suffer as His Son did!”

    1) You have got to be joking.
    2) David never stopped for one minute fighting for the kingdom God placed in his care.
    3) Oh, so beat on me more Pastor, and rob the offerings that were supposed to be used for the entire church. And when I asked you to stop the abuse, then go ahead, throw me and my family under the bus, because you don’t want to entangle yourself with the harder things that come in the body of Christ. That’s all okay, because , hey everybody sins, and you are not perfect, but you’re just like me. Besides all churches have their problems, so we can be just like them. Not only that I can just chalk it all up and count for glory because what I have suffered as a result of your wrong doings. Thanks Pastor, for showing me the light——pass the plate, please.

    Covered: are you serious?

  117. Andrew,

    I am not offended by your comments or questions. Please understand our situation. We are in a rural, small town. There has never been a time when someone has abused the benevolence either in giving or recieving. If anyone needs food or whatever, it’s real and not a scam. As far as the couple with the car, the check was made payable to the mechanic that everyone in town knows. When someone needs food, we usually use gift cards to specific markets. When someone needs a utility bill to be paid, the check is make payable to the utility company. 2 people smoke at our church and neither one has ever asked for a dime. The average giving for 2 years has not changed more than 10% up or down in 2 years. I don’t have a clue who gives what but they are faithful. There are people who feel that they can only trust me with certain pieces of information like in their relationships or with financial struggles. I cannot say to them that I don’t or can’t hear their problems. As a shepherd, we are called to “tend” or “care” for others. Tending and caring means doing all that I can do for their physical care, spiritual care, emotional care or help build a barn. At some point in time, God called, prepared and equipped me to do some of these things. Some I hate to do and some give me great satisfaction.

    Also, almost 30% of this church is made up of peace officers. Have you ever been around a bunch of cops? They don’t let outsiders in. They don’t trust anyone and most don’t want church let alone Jesus but their wives make them go. I caught one of these guys doing a background check on an old man dying of cancer because he wasn’t convinced that the man was sincere. We were providing house cleaning for this 74 year old man while he was dying! Are you kidding me? What would you do? So in my particular case, should I remove myself from participating in distributing benevolence?

    Andrew, at some point if you read and understand your Bible, you must trust your pastor just a little bit. You may not trust pastors but I can tell you that most of what I do is not me doing it. I would have quit had I realized what was in store for our lives. God is faithful and He is the Chief Shepherd and I am working for Him. I hope that you receive this post as it is intended.

  118. Like^^^^^

  119. Like^^^^ was for #116

    Covered- You command Andrew to read and understand his Bible and to trust Pastors.
    Does the Bible say to trust them?

  120. Covered you stated:

    I lurk often here and it breaks my heart hearing what has happened to so many. It just seems as though if some of these folks would be willing to become a little bit vulnerable (which is very hard after being abused), then they would see that they can receive and give the kind of love that they so desire. ”

    The part of this statement that you made, that is, “if some of these folks would be willing to become a little bit vulnerable (which is very hard after being abused) then they would see that they can receive and give the kind of love that they so desire.

    Hmmmm, you know, Covered, I don’t believe that you get the purpose of what we as victims and survivors are trying to accomplish here. As Alex has explained, this site is not a “Compassion Ministry.” There are other sites that he has listed where we can go to receive further support and compassion for those things that have injured us. Along with this, people like myself have to be careful what is or is not shared, as our very life may hang in the balance. I am not looking to receive love from anyone here. Do I appreciate when someone is able to key into my plight? Of course I do, as anyone would when being understood and not discounted in the midst of fighting for truth, freedom, and honor.

    We are not looking on this sigth to receive love, yet we exhibit the love that we have towards one another, as well as, reaching back to those who are still in CC while caring enough to speakj boldly to those who represent CC leadership.

    Many of us are fellowshipping elsewhere and continue to enjoy the fellowship among other Christians in an alternate manner. In these places, we have found a safe place to be more vulneralbe and to get the support that is needed to keep us strong and loving towards others.

    So, when stated what you did——I have to wonder why you are “lurking” at all. You have shared alot about how you run your church and we have taken from that what we see to be red flags and have made comments to that effect. Althoug, many things that you have shared does not appeared to be the typcial Mose’s Model, there things that don’t fall far fromthat tree. So we are bringing that to your attention. Not to ride all over you, but to say—-hey, that’s not scriptural and that looks to much like this, rather than what you would like it to look to us.

    So, in what you have stated about being more vulnerable and less bitter and so on and so forth—I really don’t believe you heard any of us, much less acknowledge any of the red flags that we have brought to your attention. Including providing a budget report to your congregation that includes the amount of your salary.

  121. Covered,

    Trust my pastors? I do trust them but no more or less than any other person in the church from greatest to smallest. Trust my pastors with what? That they know how to administer the benevolence fund better than anyone else? I don’t get your rationale. Do you trust your congregation? This idea that I am supposed to put more trust in the pastor than anyone else is completely un-biblical. You asked me to read my Bible but now I am asking you to read yours.

  122. Linda and Hannah,

    My analogy about David was that God is big enough to use even the most vial things for His glory. Your pain is beyond comprehensible especially when it’s born out of the relationship of an abusive pastor. A child that is abused in any way by another person deserves the strictest punishment around and in some cases death (in my opinion).

    My comments and my point is the same, God will fix this! God can use your pain and the pain of others for His glory.

    As far as bitter goes, yes you are bitter. Your comments to me indicate your bitterness. I am sorry that your husband or your pastor abused you but at what point do you realize that God is bigger than all of this?

    Finally Linda and Hannah, fight for the kingdom. Fight for what is right and fight for those who cannot defend themselves but not every pastor is out to hurt you. It just seems as though without even knowing me you can easily discern what’s in my heart and that’s not fair. I can tell you stories about CC pastors that will make your skin crawl but not every pastor is the enemy.

    I have to run now but I hope that you can forgive me for offending you, it was not my intention. As I said, I have been around here over 2 years now and I will make myself available to Alex or anyone else who could use my testimony in this battle. It’s an important battle but I refuse to let it steal my joy.

  123. Andrew, you said, “Trust my pastors? I do trust them but no more or less than any other person in the church from greatest to smallest. Trust my pastors with what? That they know how to administer the benevolence fund better than anyone else? I don’t get your rationale. Do you trust your congregation? This idea that I am supposed to put more trust in the pastor than anyone else is completely un-biblical. You asked me to read my Bible but now I am asking you to read yours.”

    I do trust God’s congregation. I do not expect more trust than anyone else but I would hope that there is some trust when it comes to benevolence. I never said MORE trust. As far as reading your Bible, I am concerned that you feel that the pastor is just there to read the word and not shepherd God’s people. I don’t want to believe that but your comments lead me to that conclusion. Please don’t take this out of context but don’t you think that it’s strange that the pastor is the one people generally go to when seeking answers about their salvation yet you believe that I am not capable of distributing benevolence along side of the 100 others who also distribute benevolence?

    As I said to Linda and Hannah, I’m not here to offend anyone and I abhor abuse especially in the church. If you have any more questions, please ask Alex for my email and I will answer any questions you have. Andrew, I’m on your side.

  124. Covered, you stated:

    “but I can tell you that most of what I do is not me doing it. I would have quit had I realized what was in store for our lives. God is faithful and He is the Chief Shepherd and I am working for Him. I hope that you receive this post as it is intended.

    For whatever it is worth, please understand we are not questioning the calling God has upon you as a pastor. And we certainly appreciate you sharing the challenges inherent in such a calling..

    But do you understand that:

    1) We are all called to in all that we do and say, we do it unto and in Him.

    2) That being a Christian is a road paved with grief, sorrow, and dispair, for such is the way of the Cross for all of us—-not just Pastors.

    3) That we would have quit as well had it not been for the hope that lies within us through His promisies and the Holy Spirit that leads, guides, directs, convicts, and comfort us as well?

    4) That we are all to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and trust no man?

    5) But above all to love one another, as He has love us and to love the Lor d with all that is within us, body, mind, soul, and strength?

    6) That you are not alone in being a Pastor and that the body of Christ can minister to you as well, and that no part is greater than another, including the head?

    7) That the entire body of Christ should not be deprived of information that does not enable them to participate in church affairs in making informed decisions by prayer, the leading of the Holy Spirit and the respect from those in leadership and staffing roles, knowing that to do otherwise is keeping them in the dark and treating them more like children than as adults to be able to use and to share their resources, talents, skills, time, energies, and efforts with the body individually and corporately.

    8) That you would do well in heeding Pastors’ Jeff’s letter to Pastor by educating yourself, as one profession with the highest rate of alcholism and domestic violence is found in the military and among police officers and related agents. By the way 1 in every woman is abused in the church (including yours), including wives of pastors and laypersons. That you probably wouldn’t know how to recognize this unless she had a black eye or a broken arm. You wouldn’t know how to identify an abuser and you wouldn’t know what to believe when she is an emotional mess, either totally shut down or missing church while he is being very calm and convincing you that she is being too sensitive overly dramatic. You simply wouldn’t know because you didn’t prepare yourself for this part of the ministry. If there is church discipline, you implement it, but not knowing what is most effective in bringing about a genuine repentance that protects the victim while placing the wrong doer under a certain type of accountability that included the injured spouse imput on progress being or not being made.

    Covered, I too would have quit on many things, had I not known God’s calling on my own life for the sake of the Church and the love He placed in my own heart towards other.

    And that is why we bring these “Red Flags” to your attention and other Red Flags to the attention to others. Nothing personal towards you, as we trust you are sincere in striving to be one who is called to such a profession in the faith that we all share as one in the body of Christ. I just hope and pray that you have heard us regarding these flags of concern.

  125. Covered wrote:
    As far as reading your Bible, I am concerned that you feel that the pastor is just there to read the word and not shepherd God’s people. I don’t want to believe that but your comments lead me to that conclusion.

    Its actually just the opposite. When you have been in a CC mega church and have been jaded like myself and you begin to realize that the pastors you become familiar with are there to just herd the cattle. No shepherding takes place at all period accept at their own discretion with their own friends and family. When I look at the paid staff on any Calvary Chapel mega church and I see 3 or more related people on staff, it really makes me wonder what kind of nepotism is going on. This is what we have been accustomed to and its very hard to relate to the small hometown caring church where the pastor actually shepherds the entire flock.

  126. That would be 1 of every 4 woman in the church, including wives of pastor are abused.

    And since I am making this correction, please also know that most people do not recognized or understand what abuse is and how to idenitify it, much less provide the intervention that is need to stop it and to effectively hold the abuser to an account that could enable the healing and reconciliation processes to take place, if at all possible while always, but always placing the safety of the victim and children first and foremost before the abuser’s demands to reconciled or be restored before they have proven to those they have victimized that they can be trusted and faithful. Not just because they appear to be repentant but when they prove to the victim they can be. Not a moment before this, no matter how sincere they appear to be. And certainly should not be permit to assume or resume any leadership role unitl this occurs. Particularly when any type of addiction, sexual immorality, or child abuse have occurred.

  127. Covered,

    It is not my purpose to offend you or to steal your joy and I am glad to hear that you are on our side, but my heart is sad that you have taken an offense and also that you think that Hannah and I are bitter towards all pastors.

    Quite the contrary, I am friends with several Pastors, their wives, and extended family members. What more, if it hadn’t been for several Pastors outside of CC, I would have died on several occasions as a result of having hide. So, I think that your comment about me being “bitter” has more to do with the criticism I made regarding the Red Flags that we were seeing in some of the things that you were sharing regarding how things were administrated in your church. So, instead of taking that has being helpful, you just wrote it off as being “bitter” which is unfortunate.

    Anyway, wanted you to know in the event you decide to take peek to see if any of us responded to your comments. Shalom, in Christ—-Linda

  128. Covered,

    You do not sound competent to pastor. To many double standards.

    You accuse Hannah and Linda of having bitterness (and David I guess, a man after God’s own heart) because of what they are saying and then claim they can’t judge you by what you are saying because they don’t know you?

    And telling them God will use their hurts but he is not now? Poor form.

    You were for them, before you were against them.

    Do they sound bitter, no, wiser yes.

  129. Covered wrote: ” It just seems as though without even knowing me you can easily discern what’s in my heart and that’s not fair.

    Yet you are tell Hannah and me that we are bitter and that you tell this by the comments we make? Hmmmmm.

    You don’t know either of us either, Covered. I don’t think I made any statement regarding what is or what is not in your heart, like you did towards us.

    As far as I know or remember I was very specific with the Red Flags that was raised due to how finances are budgeted and managed, including the disclosure or rather, the non-disclosure of your salary on a report that is not distributed to all the people who attend your church. Being so, it does not permit decision making to be done by them but rather relies upon you to make tough decisions and leave them dependent upon you, which in turns can set up, as well as , them, for a fall in more ways than one can imagine.

    You choose to write that off and then call Hannah and me bitter. That’s not our heart, but that is your choice to do so. Do you do the same with others as well? Something else for you to consider. That’s all—-I hope you take this in the best of way as well.

  130. Just correcting, because I think it is important:

    which in turns can set up YOU and the leadership, as well as , them, for a fall in more ways than one can imagine. n #129

  131. Linda, Hannah anyone else I offended…

    I just returned from my errand and need to do another. Please do not read anything into my next comment other than exactly what is said. Let me begin by saying, I am sorry that you have been hurt. Let me also retract my comment about you being bitter and forgive me for assuming this was the case.

    Bitterness is a word that describes the result of being hurt or damaged. We all want justice for those who hurt us or others and when we don’t feel like justice is served, we all can become bitter. Bitterness will prevent you from being all that you want to be and all that God intends you to be.

    In 2 Sam, a man named Ahithophel who was Bathsheba’s grandfather hanged himself because he felt that justice wouldn’t be served to David for his sin to his grandaughter.

    I am NOT saying that you are bitter, I am not saying that you are angry or depressed, what I am saying is to please check your heart. Bitterness can creep up on us and devour us. It took around 10 years for Ahithophel to finally bring his own demise but what a tragedy! If we give these things to God, He will fight this fight for you. He may be doing just that and using you like he’s using Alex. My opinion (which I know is worth very little), is that if God isn’t driving this car, it will crash and you will get hurt.

    Isaiah 41:10 says, “Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed for I am your God. I will strengthen you, yes I will help you. I will uphold you with My righteous right hand”

    I will go back to lurking and I hope that you get the desires of your heart.

  132. Covered,

    Thank you for the time you took in sharing with us. Just so you will know. The Scripture you referenced is the Scripture given to me shortly after I was left under the bus by my husband and CC.

    I am a very forgiving person, Covered, so its a challenge for me to be “bitter.” Never have been, not once in my entire life. Depressed, yes, but bitter or hateful, nope. Anger, absolutely. Murderous, nope. The heart of Deborah the phopetess and the boldness of Paul, I’m afraid so—yet a a child, fragile and ever so dependent upon the Lord to be there before, during, after all is said and done. Always, as much as depends upon me, walking in obedience and in fear of the Lord who knows my heart in all things.

    Thanks again.

  133. Covered,

    You did say @ #122 “As far as bitter goes, yes you are bitter. Your comments to me indicate your bitterness.”

    Then you said @ #131 “I am NOT saying that you are bitter”

    Which is it?

    Again you do not sound competent to pastor. Or teach, to many double standards.

  134. Q, I think covered just issued an apology and asked for a retraction of his comment on assuming bitterness so lets give cover to covered where it is deserved.

    With that said, however, I don’t think an internet abuse blog web site is really the best place for a pastor to try to pastor people. For one, just because someone says they are a pastor on here means absolutely nothing to me. I mean nothing.

  135. Q,

    I don’t know Linda’s heart and I was wrong in drawing the conclusion that she was bitter. What I sensed were signs that could lead to bitternes such as, anger, frustration etc which led me to wrongly accuse her of being bitter. The truth is only Linda and the Lord know her heart. If I need to apologize to Linda again, then I certainly will.

    As far as you determining whether or not I’m a competent pastor, I hope that one day I will be the pastor God called me to be.

  136. Covered, it is said that Jesus did not die by being crucified, but rather of a broken heart.

    I know what this is about, as I too, as result of what I’ve experienced due to the horrendous terror that is part and parcel of being betrayed and abused by someone you deeply love and want so much better for them and the relationship that God has set before them.

    As a result of experiencing these things, I developed hypertension. After also developing pneumonia and going to the E.R. nearly dying and being placed on oxygen, steroids, and other life saving devices and meds, I was told during a follow up appointment, that I would probably not die from a heart attack (even though my heart rate was measuring an average of 192/90 on a frequent basis), but rather I would die of a broken heart instead.

    I am still here and my heart rate has now stabilized to 107/65. I don’t take any meds. My heart is still broken, but you know it is because of the love I hold in my heart — the same love that God has put in my heart, not just for my husband, but towards others and the things that I see that is happening and that has happened to everyone as we approach or enter into these latter days.

    I am doing what God has led me into doing and how it is all going to work out, I don’t know, but I do know is that whatever it is, it is my hope and my prayer that when I stand before Him, I will hear him say, “Well done, Good and Faithful Servant.”

    For me to do otherwise, than what I am doing, for me it would be as if I turned my back on the turth and upon those who needs to be protected from those who needs to repent and be held to an account.

  137. Greetings friends,

    Wow.. quite a lively discussion! Ok.. person by person…
    @Covered 82… thanks for your concern about my well being within CC.. but I have written nothing but the truth ..so far as I can see it… again.. CC is my home and I love it… having said that , like any group there have been and no doubt will be issues that come up…. I find this Blog interesting and since the main subject appears to be CC.. I thought joining the discussion might be helpful….I know and trust the Florida CC area leaders.. Gib Allen and Malcolm Wild are tow of the most remarkable men I have ever met… both have been very kind to me….
    @ 83 and 84… If CC has hypnotic qualities then I am unaware.. (which may mean I am hypnotized myself???) Just kidding.. My
    @ 85..I see change coming now… I see young newer pastors every meeting.. I see very young music gaining influence all the time….As these younger people take leadership positions they are bringing education and fresh vision.. and I love it ..I am 50 and kinda old school… so the younger folks coming in are keeping me young and inspiring me
    @ 88…truly folks.. there is nothing Pyramid that I have seen in CC. Our local church does not, nor have we ever, paid up to anyone… to me this is nearly unique… I know pastors in denominational churches who are paying up to various levels of leadership and they cant afford their electric bills…
    @ et al… I am seeing a general discussion about the church body being involved in making decisions for the church… In most of the churches I know.. CC’s or otherwise… the Church Board represents the people..not unlike how Congressmen represent their constituencies… Our church has put things to a vote before.. one was the actual naming of the church… When I was at CC Huntington Beach in California.. our church was involved in a pastoral search for a new senior pastor. Several candidates applied and they each came on consecutive Sunday’s and preached and then the church put it to a Congregational vote….In the political world there has always been a debate about direct democracy vs representative democracy… Some see that one is vastly superior to the other… some see a blending of the two as the way to go….. In my own estimation , we are hard pressed to show a calling for democracy in the New Testament ..The Bible does suggest a few different models.. Like Denominations themselves.. I think God may have allowed so many to grow and thrive and to be situationally able to do so.. as many of you have said, checks and balances are critical.. Our books are open to all attendees.. I have also given copies of by laws to all attendees who have asked to see them….
    @ Linda (95) .. Re: my training for abuse situations.. ok.. as I mentioned earlier I am a Doctoral Candidate ..my major is adult education… I hold a Back in Biblical Studies.. a Bach in History, Social Sciences Minor… a Masters in Education.. and have taken perhaps 12 undergrad and 10 post grad Psychology based courses.. many of them relating strongly to recognizing and dealing with abuse situations… Florida and several other states have relatively new laws that mandate that professionals in the education, medical, and counseling fields all be legally obligated to report situations that may be abuse.. I have taken many post grad counseling courses….I have also been to many CEU type classes and workshops exclusively dedicated to recognizing and dealing with family and organizationally based abuse. All the classes I have mentioned came from accredited state colleges our private secular universities… In our short few years as a church I have already had a few cases where this training was vital, and I thank God for it…..I also have a gal in the church that is a Psychiatric nurse.. I have consulted her opinion and expertise of how to recognize signs of abuse.. I also have a licensed Christian Therapist on our official referral list. Just last week I arranged a meeting for a personal in our church with this professional. I have, assisted by my own training, conducted leadership training relating to potential abuse situations. You mention “rampant sexual abuse’ in Calvary.. I have heard of ..in the past four or so years… about 4 cases… How might you define “rampant?” I am not excusing the four cases.. some of them are in the courts right now and deservedly so…
    @ Covered (96).. we do this too.. we have “Ask the Pastor” Q and A sessions perhaps 6 or 7 times a year. I love these nights.. They are a blast.. and every time folks bring challenging questions and the pastors have to be honest and cannot hide… I find these sessions help create “open systems” (keep the communications channels open…)
    @ Q (99)..” you seem to be a nice enough guy, but naive and ignorant”…. Well.. thanks.. I would have to be naïve and ignorant to reconcile the first half of your sentence with the second half… You mention that a Cc similar to our started with noble intentions and meaningful bylaws but that over time the SP was swayed by other CC SP’s ( hey I am learning your lingo!!) to dump his board members and put in yes men… A few weeks ago we had a vote on an important issue.. the vote was 6 to 0 with one abstention…. I could have simply moved forward and engaged in this change (which is very important to us in my view)..instead.. I circled back.. and we are going to meet as a group a second time and try to come up with a way to adjust the plan or perhaps add some concession that may help assuage the feelings of the one abstention… I hate the “my way or the highway” stuff…. Back to finance for a minute.. each board meeting has minutes.. the finances are in the minutes.. the minutes are available to our attendees

  138. Mark said: As these younger people take leadership positions they are bringing education and fresh vision.. and I love it.

    What do you mean by “fresh vision”. Vision in the bible refers to direct revelation from God himself. Are you referring to these young people receiving prophecy? Prophecy that if written down would be just as much scripture as what our bible is?

  139. Covered,

    Thank you for correcting what you said and your apology.

    That’s pastor like.

  140. Linda,

    Your story is amazing. I am aware of some of your journey and you are a blessing by being here. God is with you and I will pray for continued strength, guidance and health.

    Andrew,

    Wow… whatever it is that I do that offends you I hope that I stop. I am not “pastoring” I am trying to contribute as you are. It bothers me to see people who are hurting and feel betrayed. It seems that if good folks like most here were assured that God is there and He cares, it may help ease the pain.

  141. Mark, I just listed some links that I hope you’ll read at #175 on Alex’s 9/18 post.  Those links will show you a picture of Chuck’s ungodly response to this whole mess.
    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1448

  142. Mark Convoy,

    I think a person can be naive and ignorant (uniformed) and still be a nice guy, even have good intentions, I don’t think that is an oxymoron?

    Anyway, glad to hear you are doing things the way you are but I believe there is a systemic problem in Calvary Chapel (CC) because of the Moses Model style of Church government. Once there is assets in play the temptation seems to be to great without meaningful accountability and checks and balances in place.

    Don’t you realize that money and property are being put in control of 1 person (naive). Will yours be put into someone’s name or into a trust with accountability?

    You said you are not aware of a pyramid in CC; what do you think the Moses model is?

  143. Covered, I am not offended at all. I thought I have been gracious to you. I agree with you that we can certainly assure others that God cares but what is so specific about this that relates to pastors? We are all called to do this. My concern is when assumptions and advice and corrections go out to others without knowing who they are. Its the same kind of thing I have to deal with when I talk with a pastor in real life who is not my pastor. Usually the pastor puts himself in the role of pastor when in fact he is not my pastor. This drives me crazy because they assume they have some kind of authority over you and they cannot remove their pastoral hat. Can’t a pastor be a friend or a normal citizen. do they always have to be a pastor? It usually means they want more respect or want to be called reverend, etc..Is it possible for a pastor to take off their pastor’s hat when in a situation where they are not the person’s pastor?

  144. I think I meant uninformed but maybe uniformed works also. :)

  145. @ Andrew… no not prophesiy.. by vision I mean a young persons perspective.. a desire to reach their own culture… I am not getting Pentacostal here.. I am just saying I love seeing the younger folks get invovled as it helps sustain churches.. not just CC’s but all Bible teaching churches.. its a good thing

  146. @ Q (142) I think pyramid is a model that sends money to the top.. we are a CC and send no money anywhere but to missionaries in other countries.. not ever to other CC churches.. to your question about assets.. the assets are the colelctive property of the church.. certainly not owned by any individual.. the board oversees the assets.. The Bylaws see to that

  147. Mark,

    By rampant abuse, I am speaking of the sexual immorality that is being practiced among leaders and within the congregation. As a clinician, myself I am quite informed and capable of making this statement. Practicing such things is not an isolated or private endeavor. The mindset that is involved in do so does impact more than one person. It is not healthy, nor does it honor or respect anyone involved directly or indirectly. It crosses the boundaries of those things that God holds as holy and meant to be practiced only between a husband and wife. By saying that it is rampant, anyone can tell you that the divorce rate in the church is now higher than that in the world. Much of this is due to thinking that it is “normal” to lust after another person, because that is what the world teaches us. But not what God has told us. That is, it is not normal, but rather it is due to our fleshly desires and not out of having a respect for one another of the same gender, nor of the oppposite gender. If it were so, we would not be stealing each other’s partner, or trading off our spouses, for someone’s else spouse or a spouse, God had in mind for another. We can only be tempted because our heart is not in the right place and we fall to that temptation, because we think it is “normal” and that God understands, when in fact it is not an issue for God to understand, but it is an issue for us to “get it.” Rampant, when people live together without marrying each other. Rampant when we permit known pastors to commit adultery right under our noses, and then force their wives to divorce them, while practicing harlotry, rather than to be held to an account and requiring them to reconcile with their wife, if possible. If not possible, then still to permit them to assume their role as a pastor or any other teaching type ministry. Rampant, because even among the leadership, you can hear in the pulpit, as well as, at men’s conferneces, jokes that bashes or mocks the female gender. Rampant because, it is taught on the radio that husbands are to be perceived by their husband to be like a military commander to them and the wife sole ministry is to be a witness to the world on how well she submits to her husband. Rampant because, this then breeds an attitude of superiority among males towards females in general. Rampant becuse it also breeds an attitude of domination and subjugation. Rampant because in turn this abusive and gives an further justification to cheat, lie, betray, abuse, and hold those that have no authority except to mind the children to stand up and say: “REPENT AND STOP THE ABUSE TOWARDS US.”

    Mark, I am most impressed that you have taken all these courses and have consulted with licensed people who are clinicians. But take from another clinician, not all are trained experts in the area of abnormal behavior, personality disorders, sexual addiction and domestic violence. What more few are trained providing intervention that is truely effective. What more few therapist who say they are Christians really study the Scriptures. What more, until just recently it was thought that marital counseling was the correct intervention between people who abuse and betray their partner and children. This is not longer consider to be effective. Instead, it is now being understood to be even more harmful as it tends to blame the abuse spouse and revictimizse them as well as enables the abuser to avoid taking full responsibility and working on the issues that they alone must remediate in order to be a safe and faithful father and spouse.

    What else? It would be helpful that when you comment that you would do it in paragraph form rather than the form that you just used. I would like to hear what you have to say, but its difficult keeping track when it looks all mashed together.

    Being a college graduate, we both know what this means. So will read it over again and make additional comments as I am led to do so. Thanks again for sharing and please get Lundy Bancrofts’s book. I think you will be very surprised and enlightened to what we have been trying to get across in the way of abuse and intervention. It is not like most books written on this topic—not by a long shot.

    One final note, as long as the Moses Model is the foundation of any church, including yours, it is not base on Scripture and it not a church at all, but rather it is a company raking in the money and building a kingdom of property and assets for the who ever owns the title of such. Period.

  148. Andrew, thanks for your honesty. I have told my wife so many times that I wish some people didn’t know that I was a pastor. I want to go into a store and have someone give me a football score instead of treat me like I’m always “pastoring”. Pastors have no authority over you and I would hate it if people at our fellowship thought that or treated me that way. Being a pastor should mean that we have people to serve and not the other way around. If the mind of Christ is in us like Paul taught, then I am less than a slave. I know pastors who live like this and the model that Jesus gave us is to serve others, be humble and love the Lord with all our heart. I sin, I am a sinner. I will continue to sin until the Lord takes me home. I want to be better.

  149. @ I heart Sheck.. I will listern..

  150. Covered, Thanks for your honesty as well.

  151. #145

    Mark, you sound exactly like Chuck Smith, using the hippie culture to develop the Calvary Chapel Movement by using the Moses Model.

    The more I think about this the more I have to wonder just how Narcissistic CS is. Oh, I know that is going cause a lot of buttons to be pushed. But think about it, is it possible that this is what this is all about and we just haven’t gotten to the core issue of why he seated his authority on such a foundation?

    Mark, what is wrong with reaching the ” new” culture with what the Bible teaches. Music you say that is fresh. And a vision that reaches the culture—-yikes. You now are beginning to sound more like a “seeker” friendly church along with sounding like a likeness of CS.

    I know in Florida there has been much concerned about the CC inviting guests to speak at conferences that are not considered to be balanced but more like the Saddleback and what’s his name, darn i can’t recall right now. Does anyone else know? What wrong with with just sticking to the Bible and what was taught and preach in it. What possible gimmicks can one come up with that is not new under the sun? I would be very careful, Mark——-

    Tell me, do you endorse the 12 step model to deal with addiction. Why? Do you realize that was founded upon the principles and concepts of a founder that was prolifically a womanizer, narcissistically disordered, and who participated in seances and auto graphia, while also plagerizing and then telling his wife not to take his inventory, but to get her needs met by having her own 12 step meeting with other wives instead. This is a whole other area that is used by the treatment providers and then endorse by “Christian” groups and churches becomes they used the word, “god.” Urrrgh, a bone of contention with me—-as the sucess reported are only about 17% which in by book is more about the money being spent than actual converts. Sounds familiar anyone?

    That’s enough—–for now.

  152. Mark @145,

    Vision than is not the right vocabulary to use if you are only referring to perspective. Vision implies a preferred picture of the future. The danger I see in this is that one’s preferred picture of the future may be different than another’s preferred picture of the future. This is where turf wars come from and Calvary Chapel is about as aggressive and as territorial as they come. This has been well documented on this site.

  153. The importance of understanding the history and philosophical underpinnings of the 12 step movement and its founders is that it is being integrated by those who have gone through treatment and have joined our churches. In turn, there has entered a subtle, but ever so profound influence in the way that we perceive repentance, grace, and ridding ourselves of a sinful lifestyle. It has affect the gospel and what we need to be saved. Jesus said to repent and believe. Whereas, now we are saying very loudly to believe, and very softy, to repent. Also, more and more so, we are buying into the idea that “once an addict, always an addict.” This is a lie, a huge lie, from the pit. And it has to do with not having the heart changed and not being held to an account those things we make excuse to practice in the flesh, saying, “I’m just human, or “I’m just a man, or Once saved, always saved.

  154. Andrew,

    As I was reading your comment about the territorial thing, you will never guess what came to mind. ———–

    I thinking that CC would end up being totally split off from one another, yet retaining the lynch pins of the Moses Model of doing things. I was thinking about the Catholic church. That is, the Roman vs. the Greek Orthodox—–no offense meant towards anyone, but that is what came to my mind.

  155. Linda,

    You might be onto something here. I think it has the potential to be a lot worse though. Since there are 14 different regions, It could be a 14 way spit with all of them insisting to be the Moses of their own territory. They might place nice for a while but I do think this model of church government is so corrupt that I do believe this has the potential for disaster.

  156. Mark @146 The pyramid is not just where you pay dues to the denomination but also where an individual church is set up with the senior pastor (SP) at the top hearing from God and under him are associate pastors, assistant pastors, elders and deacons, and under them are the rest of the congregation (Moses Model).

    This ends up many times with an authoritarian and unbiblical type of leadership.

    This is CC’s style of government that Pastor Chuck teaches. It is out of the Old Testament where Moses heard from God and then told the people what God had said and appointed elders (in CC pastors) as judges, elders are used as buffers between the CCSP and the congregation so if someone does not agree with the SP decision it was the board of elders that decided and SP remains in good standingbut now we are in the New Testament where in Christ we are all kings and priests with different gifts to build up the church for works of service.

    It gets abused all the time, where the Pastor gets a vision and the rest (people under him) are to carry it out with time and money and if not they need to find another place or they are causing division or do not have a servants heart, etc. Church discipline is suppose to be for sin and to restore not for disagreeing with the pastors vision or program. And assets ultimately are in the hands of who ever is at the top (in this case the SP) who can fire the board at will.

    It’s good to hear your church is not set up this way.

    Are you really not aware of this in the church and CC?

  157. Sorry Andrew,

    To clarify—we would have CC of the East and then there would be CC of the West– just like the Greek and Roman Catholic church.

  158. Andrew,

    As long as the Moses Model is in place, I have to agree. Mark, I don’t think he’s told us who names are on the corporate papers. I hear a lot of things, but specifically answering our questions pertaining this, unless I missed it, I have read it–have you?

    As long as a church runs on this model, I wouldn’t trust anything that was said. To me, it’s all fluff to sell seats in order to donate to the SR’s kingdom and to eat up the attention that is gained from all the hype and excitement generated by “good” music and culturally
    seeker friendly mechanisms that teaches the word and leaves the flock to practice things that ought not be even named among the body of Christ.

    Anyone can look at it and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that the flock is being duped and taken for a ride. But sheep are stupid and if you tell them the wall is white, when you know darn well, it’s black, do you think they will make a bleep of a sound and call foul—-few and far between. Baaaa Baaaa

  159. Mark,

    Whose names are on your corporation papers. And how are you board member selected?

  160. OOOOps, hit the enter to soon.

    Mark,

    Whose names are on your corporation papers. And how are you board member selected?

    How is your salary or income determined. And isn’t true that church are exempt from taxes even without the 501C corporate status?

  161. Wow…lots of dialogue.

    Covered said we were bitter and to check our hearts.
    So typical of my experience at CC when evil was uncovered.

    Did the enemies of God tell the Israelites to do this as God instructed them through the Prophets to destroy the idolatrous nations? No. What gives a man-made title of “pastor” the right to tell or instruct anyone? They are to preach the Word…period. Instruction is to the individual through God through the Holy Spirit.
    Instead, we are instructed to be good little sheep pushed around by the rod without a proper Shepherd guiding us. The sheep will respond to the Shepherd because they hear HIS voice. Not the voice of man.
    The problen with the CC movement is that it was set uyp to make man (the Sr Pastor ) in charge–not God. All authority is through the Pastor. And as Linda has said, it encourages narcissists who want to set up “man-kingdoms”.
    Am I bitter? Yes…at man-appointed authority and not authority appointed by God.
    Just because someone becomes a CC Pastor doees not mean he was appointed by God, let alone resembles Moses, just because the church govt was set up this way.
    I was told over and over that I was under the authority of the leadership at Calvary Chapel.
    I am not…I am under the leadership of my husband and the Lord.
    When Jesus said we are to submit to our government, He did not mean a Senior Pastor who was robbing the sheep and living the high life with the sheeps resources.
    My only authority is my husband, as he submits tot he Lord, my governing body (the gov’t) and my Lord.
    We have been manipulated and brainwashed and it’s about time someone spoke up. it is the most LOVING thing we can do is to tell others this.

    I am tired of being manipulated by a Pastor.
    Even one that tells me to check my heart because he does not want to hear what I am saying. Kill the messinger! Kill the message? How can you sugar coat the truth so it is more palatable? So you are more loving? Does the tone mean anything when you speak the truth? Thats what they want you to believe so you can be the problem, not what they have done. Blame the victim game.

    And one other thing. We are npt going around licking our wounds. We are proactively giving others a vocie in a voice-less system of abuse and control to empower them to use their brains once again and not be manipulated by a man-made system.

  162. Before anyone refutes my comment about Pastors-I do know that it is a Biblical positon.
    It becomes a man-made postion when these qualities of true Shepherding are not evident.

  163. 1 Peter 5:1-3

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over [a]those allotted to your charge, but [b]proving to be examples to the flock.

  164. Hannah,

    Please scroll up and see my comment @ #131. thank you.

  165. Hannah,

    Also please see #135. Again, thank you.

  166. Mark, I visited your website for your church and read through everything then went over to find out what names are on your incorparation papers. You have shared alot with us and I am thinking how I would like to respond. Since I need to rest in order respond with some degree of intelligence and in the Spirit, it is best I just wait until my mind is operating in a refreshed mode.

    Just wanted you and others to know that there are other things I need to share with you, given what I now have to come to understand where you are coming from and so forth.

  167. Mark Convoy’s stated influences from Calvary Chapel from his website:
    Refuge CC Huntington Beach (Mark’s philosophy of ministry influenced by Pastor Bill Welsh)
    Father figure: Pastor Peyton Jones of Refuse West in Longbeach, CA.
    Joe Focht, pastor of CC Philadelphia
    Reads and listens to Jon Courson and Chuck Smith

    Calvary Chapel influences of the other pastors, as named on the website:
    CC Old Bridge, NJ
    CC Boston
    CC Palm Coast

    I name these places and people to see if anyone on here knows of anything that has taken place with these men or these churches … seems we’ve heard a few stories about some of them on here before.

    Mark, I only do this because some stories from your own churches may be enlightening.

  168. I should add that Mark is a graduate of CCBC. That’s a big influence.

  169. Which is not accredited. “But one day, they plan to be.” More on this later.

  170. Grateful @167

    Other than my own subjective experience in being stonewalled, I can say this. I believe Joe Focht was largely responsible for the disaffiliation of Calvary Chapel Ocean City, NJ and has now been advertising a new affiliate church down the road in Margate, NJ just a few blocks away from the disaffiliated church which now appears to be in competition for Jersey Shore goers. Joe is also very much a follower of Chuck Smith and the practice of the Moses model is evident. Joe is also a voice against the emergent church and you can still download Roger Oakland material from their site although Joe also appears to be tolerant of emergent voices in his affiliate churches. A former associate pastor at ccphilly for 20 years recently resigned abruptly and had all his messages removed from the library. No explanation was given other than he got burned out. Still another former associate pastor apparently is still under church discipline for sin. And still again another former associate pastor of Joe’s also was apparently removed from office many years ago. Don McClure is also listed as a pastor in the church bulletin. Joe is a fantastic bible teacher but he still practices the Moses Model. I would recommend all those who oppose the Moses Model to write him personally and let him know your concerns. His personal email is on the CCA website as the leader for the North East.

  171. @ Greateful..(167)
    You appear to have missed the many otehr influences I list in my bio.. wy? I believe you have skewed things a bit… the point you are apprently trying to make is that I am myopic and only relate to CC pastors and ministries.. my bio.. that you have…abridged somewhat… shows that I list many varied Christian influences….

  172. @ Linda .. I look forward to hearing from you…… the folks on our incorporation papers are all local folks… none of whom are fomer CC pastrs… all in house church attendees…

  173. @ Linda (160) we are 501 C3 … no pastors.. not me or any of our pastors receive a salary.. I work a 9 to 5 job as I said iin earlier posts… I attend secular graduate school… I am a CC BC grad but also have degrees from University of Central Florida and from Jones International University in Colorado. Boy this is quit a vetting I am getting in here….

  174. @ et al re: names on Articles of incorporation…..Names on incorporation papers are myself.. James Durso ( board member) Troy Maxwell ( co -founder) Richard Marsh ( former board member)

  175. @ Q (156).. I am aware of the Moses Model.. I actually thinki it is a it of a mis nomer…. I suppose I could have gone after a more centralized authority structure.. but I met with the board over the course of say 12 -14 months.. we came up with a church board approach that has checks and balances.. the board can , by by law, block church direction with a vote to do said… I tryo to work for consensus and I often make concessions along the way to try to get close to a unanymous agreement..
    BOard members are nominated by myself and elected by the sitting board… terms are one year….. Q..not all CC’s are built the same and they dont all operate in exactly the same way.. we manage our church locally.. the board is real and local ….

  176. At everyone.. ok folks.. I give …. you win.. I cannot keep up with you all! Too many questions.. I am finding my own responses are too fragmented to be of much use…I am really sad about what I have heard and learned here.. I do know that abuse siutations exist in all forms of church..CC too.. I know… I do not mean to downplay it…

    I promise ..before the Lord.. I am doing my best to avoid “even the appearance of evil” in our church… I am reading the many links and am looking to buy the book you guys have suggested….

    enough for now.. I will write after I have read the content you have suggested…. folks.. we are family.. I beleive we are all part of the body of Christ…. is there a more even keeled way to discuss all this?

  177. Mark Convoy, it sounds like you’re on a very good path with your CC. The fact you are bi-vocational speaks volumes to me personally.

    I would ask that you keep looking into these matters and that you would lobby the Calvary Chapel Association you are a part of to reform in some key areas and ask them to deal with Bob Grenier your fellow ‘in fellowship’ Calvary Chapel Affiliate.

  178. OK.. one quesion of my own.. for you all… what churches do you endorse?

  179. Thanks you Alex..I am trying..I have seen many men screw up mightily.. I have prayed and tried to “keep my head” .. I want nothing but to be invovled in sharing Jesus and building up disciples for Him… I meet regulary with local pastors… ( I am the only CC guy in the groupo).. I am always looking for advice and best practices…
    Thanks again Alex
    mark

  180. Re: Mark @ 171 said,

    “@ Greateful..(167)
    You appear to have missed the many otehr influences I list in my bio.. wy? I believe you have skewed things a bit… the point you are apprently trying to make is that I am myopic and only relate to CC pastors and ministries.. my bio.. that you have…abridged somewhat… shows that I list many varied Christian influences….”

    I understand how my pics would appear to be skewing your intent for those you listed in your bio. That was not the intent. I was purposely choosing only CC people you mentioned because people who’ve posted on here in the past have mentioned some of them if I recall correctly. If they had seen the post then they could comment on those influences.

    Over the years we’ve mentioned names on here as “good guys” and then someone with inside experience and info posts something that is either verifiable or simply a challenge to look deeper. When you have enough people saying the same stuff about a CC pastor, then we take a listen.

    Because this thread turned out to be very long, I’ve not had enough time to read through it all to see if anyone posted anything or not. What I do know is that my intent was to see if there was any information we could flush out, but not to skew your bio. If I did not present it well enough in that light, then I do apologize.

    My desire is for things that are true to be known so people can be warned or encouraged where needed. I’m sure many, along with me, are glad you posted and that you say you are trying to do things above board. Unfortunately, so many of us have seen so much for so long, so many times over, that we can hear your CC language being spoken even when you many not be aware of it. You may have a great heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ, but you could also be more influenced by your “tribe” (CC) than even you realize.

    We read between some of the lines and have to ask you the questions. Like when I read that your board can veto things, I am thrilled. I also know from experience that I’ve been told that by other CC pastors. They told me to whom they are accountable and that they strive for consensus. But the problems showed themselves when issues arose, when conflicts entered, and when the money got bigger. Then … slowly… the consensus gave way to “git-er-dun” mentality, and the board knew their role was to support the pastor and stopped challenging him. As long as the pastor can pick the board, or fire the board, or override the board, or stack the board, then the board is a puppet when the pastor decides to take over.

    In other words, while you are walking with Jesus, you will do right even with a bad structure. But with a bad structure you will have much more temptation to sin and take over the power.

    So many of us have seen this happen over and over and over again. My own fallen pastor appeared to start out well. But over time the prestige, the power he gained, and then the money he had pouring in in a few short years tainted him. It can happen to the best of them.

  181. Let me say it this way:

    Many of us experienced in our CC years watching CC pastors saying, “I am of Paul, I am of Peter …” Or I am of Skip Heitzig, I am of Raul Ries, etc… Who you name, in some cases, tells us volumes.

  182. Mark wrote: OK.. one question of my own.. for you all… what churches do you endorse?

    There are literally thousands of great churches around all over the globe. Some are fairly small so they might not be on the radar but same time they are wonderful. I endorse all of them. However, I get the feeling when you say endorse, you mean something I could affiliate with in a network. Two obvious problems I see with some church networks.

    1. Many times these networks do not have a proper way to handle church discipline. Not sure how a person can be under church discipline under one Calvary chapel and can serve as a pastor in another and the 2 churches be affiliated with one another. It seems to be a contradiction.

    2. When churches affiliate with each other, it also has the tendency to exclude all the other great wonderful independent churches or churches from a different network. Although Calvary claims they are non-denominational, it appears they are a huge clique among themselves. You can get the feeling that if you are not part of their network than you aren’t part of the true church. This gives it a cult like atmosphere.

  183. Mark,

    Sorry it’s taken a few days to get back to you. I’ve read through the comments, questions and your responses. Please answer the following:

    You have 4 men listed as Board Directors.

    1) Who makes the decision to designate these Directors?
    2) Does the congregation have any involvement with this selection?
    3) Why are there 4 Directors? Are any involved with investing their funds in your CC?
    4) Is any Board Director compensated in any way for serving as a Board Director?
    5) Does any Board Director recieve any funds for their personal expenses?
    6) In your bio statement, you listed many CC Pastors who have influence you.

    You are listed: Flagler Bible Fellowship, Inc. Updated 5/19/2012 – This profile of Flagler Bible Fellowship, Inc. was created using data from Dun & Bradstreet and Florida Department of State

    Mark W Convoy, Director
    James Durso, Director
    Domenic Scardigno, Director
    Joseph X Desouza, Director (but you said, you were the only CC pastor on the board)
    James Durso, Principal

    Estimates show Flagler Bible Fellowship Inc employs 2 people and has an annual revenue of $88,000.

    Your bio states: My main influences (apart from Jesus) in terms of my own present ministry and philosophy of ministry are Pastor Bill Welsh who is the head pastor of Refuge Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach, CA (and is my own head pastor and has become a true “father figure” in my life), and Pastor Peyton Jones, who is the head pastor of Refuge West, in Long Beach, California. and has been perhaps the main earthly source of inspiration for my own call into the ministry.

    It also states that one of your Director is listed as an Assistancr Pastor as well:

    His bio states: Associate Pastor, Joe DeSouza
    Hi, I’m Joe DeSouza, the Associate Pastor & Worship Leader here at Calvary Chapel. I also head up Refuge Ministries. We moved to Florida from Boston in 2004. I have been happily married for 22 years to my best friend, Barbara. We have 3 great kids: Danny, Josh, & Adriana.

    I came to faith over 25 years ago and attended what was then known as “BBC East” in the early ‘90s, then attending Calvary Chapel Boston. I’ve been blessed to have had the privilege to serve in several worship & music/outreach ministries since 1993. Once in Florida, I served as Worship Leader at Calvary Chapel Palm Coast for 4 years. The Lord redirected our steps to Parkview Baptist Church where I served for almost 2 years until my best friend, Pastor Mark began our present fellowship

    So, please Mark I would really appreciate it if you would answer the questions posed, then explain the conflict in information that you shared in light of what I copied directly from your website and the Updated 5/19/2012 – This profile of Flagler Bible Fellowship, Inc. was created using data from Dun & Bradstreet and Florida Department of State

  184. Mark,

    I’m sorry, but I don’t see anything other than a Moses Model being used. You say that the Moses Model is a misnomer, meaning what? Would corporation be more on target?

    ” I am aware of the Moses Model.. I actually thinki it is a it of a mis nomer…. I suppose I could have gone after a more centralized authority structure.. but I met with the board over the course of say 12 -14 months.. we came up with a church board approach that has checks and balances.. the board can , by by law, block church direction with a vote to do said… I tryo to work for consensus and I often make concessions along the way to try to get close to a unanymous agreement..

    BOard members are nominated by myself and elected by the sitting board… terms are one year….. Q..not all CC’s are built the same and they dont all operate in exactly the same way.. we manage our church locally.. the board is real and local ….

    So the decision making processes that takes places regarding the budget does not involve the people who make the free will offerings, right? And accountability regarding the leadership is kept within the bounds of the board members, correct? And how is church discipline implemented when offense is committed beteen leadership and an attendee or between 2 or more attendees? What part does the body of Christ play in these affairs? does the other 2 boards Directors attend your church?

  185. Mark Convoy,

    I am sure you are doing your best but I wanted to add to what Linda just wrote. My question is concerning your affiliation and the letter that Don McClure recently sent to the affiliates. Here is part of it:

    The team of pastors in the regions will essentially assume the role in the region that CCOF used to fulfill and much more. They will oversee affiliations and hopefully the process will return to church planting based on relationships. It will be their responsibility to see that the process becomes strong and personal and when someone comes into the family of churches they are well connected with their fellow ministries. They will also be places for anyone in their region to go to for most any reason that a person would contact a church. The website under construction right now is very user friendly with regional team members photos and a place to go for questions.

    They will handle problem letters, calls and emails that now come into either Calvary of Costa Mesa or CCOF. Any of this will be immediately forwarded to the regional team and the matter can be handled locally with leaders who are there in the area. Hopefully this will be a help and blessing to all.

    The regional teams will help oversee regional conferences that help bring the Calvary affiliates in the their areas closer together. It is Chuck’s desire that these men who have been with him for years will become looked to more and more to help guide, bless, encourage, inspire and give fresh vision to the movement.

    As to the central office, yes, there will still be one of sorts, but, it is more of a clearinghouse and database for the movement. I (Don McClure) and Michelle Wright (a very capable secretary you may have spoken to in the past) Will be overseeing it. There is, however, a major change from the previous time we attempted the regional idea about 10 years ago. And that is that both Chuck Smith and I will not be having any authority over the decisions of the regional teams. Though we sit on the council of CCA, the true leadership is being handed over to the regions. My personal involvement is as an administrator/facilitator among the council members and handle planning and helping the regions all work together and oversee the home office. I will continue with my present ministry for the most part but, consider it a joy to help in this manner.

    Don McClure is saying that he has no authority over the decisions of the regional teams implying that 10 years ago when they tried to do this before Chuck Smith did. I find it also kind of interesting that Don McClure is actually listed as a pastor on ccphilly church and hence is probably a board member there which implies some kind of authority but he is saying he has no authority over the regional teams in this letter. Just another conflict of interest in my humble opinion. Anyway, I digress, with this authority that was given to the regional team leads. How exactly are you 100% independent from the CC denomination when you remain affiliated. What authority do they have over you? Isn’t it an actual requirement to attend their pastor’s conferences to remain affiliated? If you didn’t show up at one of these conference for a few years, I wonder what would happen to your affiliation? And what happens when the person hosting the conference has the reputation of Jerry Sandusky, are all the affiliates still obligated to go to fulfill their requirement to attend the pastor’s conference? Something to think about…

  186. When the pastor is the one who picks the people for the board to decide if they want them, that spells trouble.

    The pastor can pick “yes” men, men who owe him, men who are negatively affected in some way if they don’t please the pastor. This often looks normal, but with just a little scratch below the surface you find out they need to believe in the pastor and make his life better by voting his way.

    The board knows they need to please the pastor and pick his men … well, actually, anyone the pastor presents is one of the pastor’s men.

  187. @ Andrew’s 185

    Interesting … At first glance it looks like Don McClure’s “clearing house” is how the mother ship gets to know the dirt on everyone. They have the records. Wow, can you imagine how that could be used? THIS IS SIGNIFICANT.

    The “Clearing House” is then suppose to send the information to the regional overseers and let them work out the issues. Here are some of the issues with this:

    Can you imagine how regional overseer(s) can then use this info against pastors in their area? Power can build just by what is covered up and who owes who.

    By what authority can one CC pastor deal with another CC pastor if they are independent?

    Let’s just imagine that a person has an issue with their pastor, writes the “Clearing House” who then tells the regional overseer. The regional overseer turns out to be closely aligned with the person’s pastor in the CC pastor’s club/network/association/affiliation. How is he going to deal with that person’s situation in an unbiased manner? How will he correct, rebuke, or church discipline his friend, his co-affiliate? … especially in a CC culture that has historically been instructed to cover-up, protect our club at all costs, and grace over the leaders, while harsh punishment for the attenders, who have zero power or influence.

    The pastors had to rely upon one another to get affiliated because they had to have a “sponsor” in another CC pastor –so to speak– to get considered. Historically, when issues have arisen CC pastors have had each other’s backs, OR they have claimed they can’t do anything because they are totally independent.

    I can’t even count how many times I was told by my CC leadership that their job is to have one another’s backs since most of the problems (at least, this is what they were taught in the CC leadership classes,) come from attenders being unkind to the leaders. What I NEVER heard them say was how the Apostle Paul told the elders in Ephesus that their job is the “protect the sheep.” With a culture like this, I can’t see how regional oversight of totally independent men (since it’s only the men who affiliated and not actually the church … the people,) in this culture that has roots over several decades.

  188. Grateful,

    Yes, this is definitely a culture within CC that has its roots firmly in the distinctives of Chuck Smith who completely ignores all scripture concerning the entire congregation being involved in church discipline. Chuck Smith ignores all of this because he looks at the congregation through the lens of the Old testament. He fails however to look at a N.T. church as you can read from his distinctives below:

    Chuck Smith wrote: “Over time, a third form of church government has arisen, known as congregational rule. I don’t believe that congregational rule is an option because we really never see an example in the Bible where the congregation was right. It was the congregation that was always coming and saying, “We want a king to rule over us like the other nations,” making demands that were not after the will of God. I can find no Scriptural example of effective congregational rule. We do read of congregations attempting to rule. In Exodus 16:2 we read, “And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:” and in Numbers 14:1-3, “And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night. And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness! And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?” Moses responds to God in Numbers 14:27, “How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.” So woe to the man who pastors a congregational church. Like Moses, the pastor will only find murmuring and uprisings”.

    These comments of Chuck Smith are just plain startling to me. People need to be educated and made aware just how wrong and corrupt Chuck Smith is with these comments. All you have to do is look at a few of these N.T. verses to see that Chuck is actually lying. (Matthew 18:15-20; Acts 6:1-6; 1 Corinthians 5; 1 Timothy 5:19-22)

  189. Grateful, You are right about the clearinghouse records. This is SIGNIFICANT. Not really sure what the CCOF ever really did other than collect info and I think you are probably right that its just a bunch of dirt that Don McClure and Chuck Smith will now just sift through and use to their advantage anyway they can and selectively give the info to the regional leads as they see fit. Definately a very biased system with absolutely no checks and balances other than this CCA counsel that was recently set up which was hand picked by Chuck himself. Interesting. However, I doubt even the CCA counsel is privy to the info that Don McClure and Chuck Smith have in their clearing house from the old CCOF.

  190. Paul Smith kept a “file” of all the stuff when he was head of CCOF according to sources. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was an attempt to destroy evidence and cover up this stuff.

    I hope to do some discovery (eventually) and address these issues. They should be well aware of the lawsuit Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia are threatening and they should know not to destroy evidence and/or hide it, that could be very bad for them.

    I plan on requesting those records to see the stuff about Bob Grenier that’s been reported to them over the years.

  191. Andrew, in Colorado, alone, I can see immediate issues with the overseers. Tom Stipe is the regional man, but some of the local CC pastors have had issues with him. They don’t play that card publicly, and from what little I know, they haven’t played all their cards with Tom, but it will become a real issue when Tom gets informed of dirt on the men who don’t like him all that well.

    Then the other regional sub-leaders (or whatever they are supposed to be called) … some of them are very loyal to one another, have each other’s backs, cover for one another. They appear to be trying to form a power block amongst themselves to protect themselves.

    I just don’t see how this gives any protection to the attenders at all. But I can forsee infighting amongst the regional overseers & sub-overseers, and LOT’s of protection for leaders from the attenders who have any complaints about them.

  192. I’m guessing here, but it just seems like Chuck Smith tried to come up with a place for people to bring their complaints, instead of resorting to this website and others like it.

    On the surface that seems like a reasonable idea; however, it’s doesn’t work out so innocently, especially since the organizational structure can’t hold this up.

    Scratch the surface, and it just looks like the true “refuse collector.” These men didn’t change their stripes, their indoctrination to protect leadership at all costs.

  193. Grateful. The warning needs to go out to the attenders. There is absolutely no protection for the attenders at all because CC doesn’t believe in membership. According to Chuck, the congregation is just a bunch of mumerers and they can never be right. Of course you would never hear this said infront of the attenders because that may actually wake them up to the reality and they may stop giving. Keep the attenders in the dark and protect the Moses at all costs seems to be the strategy. The bigger the Moses you are, the more protection you get it appears.

  194. Well, Alex, some of us have kept files, too.

    I’m betting that even if CCOF “lost files” that there are many people out there who might just be able the “help” find them, in their own files.

  195. Hmmmm, Interesting. This kind of reminds me when Alex told his story of meeting Chuck and Janet Carter a year ago and them saying that they didn’t know what an affiliation agreement was. It seems like even then that maybe they were trying to forget and underplaying what CCOF actually did. What is even more troubling is now that CCOF is dissolved, the regional leads will be doing exactly what CCOF did plus MORE. This is directly from Don McClure’s letter, but what does this mean if we can’t even get to the heart of what CCOF ever did or was supposed to do in the first place.

  196. Andrew

    #188 Am I’m the only one that notice that within the quote that you cited by Chuck Smith, all the verses are taken from the Old Testament?

    Alex, or anyone else: Do you know how to check to see if a person has become a pastor for Calvary Chapel?

  197. @ Linda (183) ( My answers in parentheses)
    You have 4 men listed as Board Directors.

    1) Who makes the decision to designate these Directors? ( the directors were established when we started the church… I made these decisions) we only had about 15 to 20 folks around.. I got with these guys .. the ones with the spots on te board.. we discussed and made these potition placements)
    2) Does the congregation have any involvement with this selection? ( no congregational vote is taken for board positions)
    3) Why are there 4 Directors? Are any involved with investing their funds in your CC? (No investing of funds happens… none… we have invested only in supplies and equipment fort he church.. The board colelctively decides about all expenditures… anything $300.00 or more…)
    4) Is any Board Director compensated in any way for serving as a Board Director? (no one at all is compensated…no one… we are actually framing our first compensated position.. it will be an admin clerk…no pastors are paid.. no board members are paid… I appreciate the rigor of your questions.. but I have stated this poinmt in many rpevious posts)
    5) Does any Board Director recieve any funds for their personal expenses? (No… a few years ago we gave small stipends to two pastors….$400.00 at years end…) but in recent years we have not….no board members have ever recevie4d any compensation)
    6) In your bio statement, you listed many CC Pastors who have influence you.

    You are listed: Flagler Bible Fellowship, Inc. Updated 5/19/2012 – This profile of Flagler Bible Fellowship, Inc. was created using data from Dun & Bradstreet and Florida Department of State

    Mark W Convoy, Director
    James Durso, Director
    Domenic Scardigno, Director
    Joseph X Desouza, Director (but you said, you were the only CC pastor on the board)
    James Durso, Principal

    Estimates show Flagler Bible Fellowship Inc employs 2 people and has an annual revenue of $88,000.

    (I do not know what esitmates you are rreferring to… I do know we currently ..nor ever in our history for that matter..have employed anyone.. also.. I do not think I have to tell you our yearly offerings..but I can tell you emphatically it is significantly less than the $88,000.00 number you post….that’s wacky..)

    When I said we have no pastors on the board..I mean the common practice of outside pastors.. You guys have often posted about CC’s creating Boards that have Pastors of other CC’s on the board.. we do not do this… Joe Desouza is an associate pastor at our church.. worship leader too…all unpaid…. he is on the board… but we have no outside pastors… no CC pastors from other churches.. on our board….

  198. @ Andrew (182).. sir.. you say that there are literally thousands of churches that you endorse..and yet you will not mention even one by name… where I am going with this is… I am curious which churches pass your muster? Which ones have gone through the vetting that you guys are giving me…that have actually received a passing grade?

    I have been super honest.. and candid to a point that I think few other churches.. CC or otherwise.. would ever do….. I do not feel like I am in a room with freinds and members of the Body of Christ.. I feel like I am in a Senate Inquiry…..

    I ask again with respect….. to you all.. who do you approve? WHich churches are ok with you?

  199. Mark Convoy, I will not name individual congregations by name to protect the innocent. When I enter one of these congregations, I can immediately tell the love of Christ is among them and I can see the fruit. There is persecution all throughout the world of true Christian churches even in united states so I have no desire to put them in the spot light here. Calvary Chapel is in the spotlight because they have put themselves in this light. Sorry but that is the way I see it.

  200. Linda at 196.

    I noticed it too that all the scripture from Chuck was taken only from the old testament. What a backwards way to determine church polity. Its absolutely astonishing to me.

  201. Mark, I understand that it feels like you are at the inquisition. I’m sure that is unpleasant. The context, at least how it looks to me, is that this is a room of people who’ve been abused by CC pastors. Many of us have similar stories, with Alex’s story being the poster child of what it’s like to deal with a Moses Model CC pastor who cannot/will not be called into account by anyone.

    We have all had nice CC pastors say they are the exception, that they don’t really use the Moses Model, that they really have financial accountability; but then we ask them in-depth questions only to find out that they are either misled, or misleading. Either way, they have much to lose if there really are systemic issues with CC, and much to lose if they face how many people have been ripped up by the Moses Model.

    I take it as a compliment to you that several on here are asking you questions and haven’t given up. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the people who’ve been through the very real spiritual abuse at the level some on here have, including myself and my family, for us to be sceptical and looking for some loophole you could be using to make yourself sound different from the others. If you’ve ever had patience with the hurting in ministry, then you’ll know how to handle yourself in here and see it worth your while.

    Please keep in mind, that while you may not have seen problems, abuses, or systemic issues in Calvary Chapel, we have. After a few years of comparing notes with those in my state, with those in other regions, with those oversees, on this blog, as well as on other blogs and websites, and throughout mission agencies I have connections with or work with, it has become apparent there are systemic issues.

    Many times people say or post something only to have others say, “That’s exactly what happened to me!” Often I’ve said, “Just change the name of the pastor, the state, and the date and that’s exactly my story.” When we see/hear such things with such repetition, we can’t just accept the next guy who comes along and says he’s different. We have to ask the questions, dig, and see for ourselves. We don’t believe it can be true, but we hope it is.

    I know this is true for me, and I suspect would be true for others, that if you or someone else could really show you are different, really answer the questions, and understand that we were the ones abused and kicked to the curb while our pastors got away with all sorts of known habitual sins, then we’d REJOICE to hear of a CC pastor who is truly different in a good way.

    We’d also warn you about the systemic issues because one cannot be a connected CC pastor and not be influenced by the Moses Model, the lack of financial accountability, and the abusive manner in which CC pastors are often dismissive of the sheep, of other churches, and often women. These issues can be found in the handbook for how to be an assistant pastor, in the CC Distinctives, at the pastor’s conferences, and in the fellowship with some of the other CC pastors.

    After we read how a pastor’s helpers are to “be a narc for Jesus” by listening to what people are saying in the parking lot and reporting it to the pastor, many of us knew this problem flows from the top down, just to name one example among many.

    So take it as a compliment, Mark, we wouldn’t bother with you if you’d only shown us all of the same ole attitude and non-answers we normally hear.

  202. Mark,

    Thank for answering the questions. Concerning the financial question involving the board, will any of this change as your church grows in offering, tithes, donations, etc?

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I was asking how much your revenue was, but cut and pasted the information for those that might be interested in asking any other questions that might help us get a better idea of what you were stating. The source that the revenue information came from was:

    http://www.dandb.com/businessdirectory/flaglerbiblefellowshipinc-ormondbeach-fl-575489.html

    Mark, in my heart I can see that you are quite sincere in what you are doing with your church. There many positive things that you are bringing to your church, however (that’s not a but, it is a however) your church is still very much founded upon the Moses Model as it does not include the participation of those who attend and tithe or make free will offerings. It also does have in place a N.T. process of church discipline for accountability for leadership and the body of Christ, alike.

    This may work for you and “your” board that fits the CC Association guidelines, but it still does not factor in the rest of the “attendees” that you will not recognize to truely exemplified the N.T. church. Instead, it only reinforces the ” corporate” body that includes you and your board member that also extend to your “affiliation” with others who share the same position as yourself.

    Andrew,

    In looking over the CC Assoc. site today, I noticed two things.

    1) A much better statement than they had 2-3 weeks ago concerning the marital relationship. Before they made a clear statement that men only had the authority to interpret scripture. Today, that was not included. So, hip, hip hooray!!!! It also did not mentioned anything about man’s role vs. female role in church and home. At least not, interms that was stated before.

    2) The entire site is geared to the leadership with the exception of providing prompts to locate a Calvary Chapel —– one by one. They no longer have a open directory with Pastors names and their respective CC.

    3) Overall, this site serves the leadership, not the body of Christ.

    4) What is really freaky—at least to me is this:

    a. The Regional leadership teams are broken into 11 areas.
    b. Each area has 1 Sr. Pastor to oversee the other SP assigned.
    c. Pastor Chuck Smith is photo is posted with those that are the SP of the SPs
    d. But Pastor Chuck does not have a region assigned to him.

    In Moses time, their were 12 tribes, but 1 did not have any area assigned to it.–It was the Levitical tribe—-with Moses, brother being the High Priest and Moses being the Admnistrator over all the tribes. But unlike Chuch Smith and CC leadership, Moses never once forgot or excluded the people placed in his care under the direct voice of the Lord.

    Andrew, in reference to the quote again by CS, he mentioned examples of how the people murmured. I wonder if CS remember the penalty for Moses for misrepresenting God when he struck out in anger and hit the rock?

    Fast forward into N.T. days——the church came together sharing what they had with one another, being taught, while helping to govern and develop the church. Even Paul, when he wrote his letters to the churches, he often mentioned the church meeting together in homes and when addressing a particular church, he would say things like:

    1 Cor. 1-2 NKJV

    Paul, called to be an apostle of jesus Christ through the will of God and Sosthenes our brother, “to” those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.

    1) Paul address the church as a whole, not to a group of leaders.
    2) He addressed the “entire” body meaning men and womaen, alike.

    The Moses Model is unscriptural—why does CC insist on continuing something that God put an end to when Jesus became our High Priest and the Holy Spirit is given to each of us who are born again? Why does CC want to put the old wineskin into the new. Why do they insist on silencing the body of Christ. Why are using the Moses Model because it fits better in with the “Corporate/Business” mentality of the world? Can they not see that they have not served the body of Christ, but rather as the CC Assoc phrase, have learn to and are now training other pastors, “how to manage” it instead.

  203. Andrew, you did it again—Your last comment certainly spoke my heart and my concerns.

    I have a comment being waiting for moderator’s clearance due to scripture being quoted, so it appears your comment was sent before mine.

  204. #201

    My error, not to say Andrew does not write well, but this time my commendation goes to Grateful

    Andrew and Grateful, given the style of your writing and the compassion you show throughout what you communicate to others, that you are or have served the Lord in teaching in some capacity. Don’t need to answer this–just my observation, that’s all. I learn much from each of you, so thanks for blessing me in the process.

  205. Linda,

    Not sure where you are referring to on the CCA website. But they still have this there:

    4. We believe in the pattern and principle of male leadership and responsibility in both the home and the church, according to the sacrificial example of Jesus. We believe this limits the roles of pastoral leadership and doctrinal authority to qualified men (1 Corinthians 11:1-12, 1 Timothy 2:1-15).

    I totally agree that the Moses Model is unscriptural and I don’t see any CC pastors standing up and saying so. I guess they have too much to lose if they did.

  206. Andrew,

    Ewwww—darn it all—–

    Darn——well all I can say is if they don’t exhibit this mindset towards the body of Christ, then how can they possibly exhibit this with their own wiives, much less provide direction for the brothers in their marriages?

    Two scriptures—-Wow—-Sorry, that doesn’t buy the farm for me. I am of the Egalitarian persuasion. There are just too many other scripture that would differ with this. Heck, when CC silences their victims, does not provide accountability, and wrongly defines what it means to be male and female, when God, himself tells us, he created man in his own image, in his own image he created man, female and mad and “they” are to have dominion over . . . , but CC women somehow don’t have a voice other than to mirror the desire of men, then something is very twisted, narcissistic, dellusional, grandiose, and very distorted in light of scriptural teachings.

    Urrrrrgh. Sorry guys, I know many of you hold the complementarian view due to what you have been taught. Likewise, due to my own studies and what I’ve been shown, I just thinks it really sucks that 1/2 of the image of God has been virtually silence in order serve man’s ego, instead of what Jesus taught us—that is we are to love one and submit to one another. And just because we’re carried across the threshold, doesn’t mean we go brain dead in order to ignore the calling and gifts God has give us to fulfill the great commission as well.

    Thanks Andrewa———-I should have known it was too good to be true.

  207. Linda, @ your 24

    Thanks! And yes I do teach. I teach Bible and I teach in a high school, through a mission organization.

  208. Wondering what everyone thought of this:

    Only one verse prohibits women to teach men, so it doesn’t apply to the whole church

    by Matt Slick

    Another objection raised by egalitarians in support of women pastors and elders is that there is only one verse that prohibits women to teach men. If it was for the church as a whole, it would be mentioned more than once.

    First of all, if it is true that the Bible teaches women shouldn’t teach men, even if it is only once, then the argument is settled. Once should be enough. But, the egalitarians don’t give up that easily. So, let’s look at why their argument has problems.

    1 Tim. 2:12 is within the context of Paul’s comment in 1 Tim. 3:15, which says, “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” So, the context of 1 Tim. 2:12 is within Paul’s instructions for the church, the household of God.

    Second, as is argued in the article In 1 Tim. 2:9-15, is “a woman” is a specific individual Paul had in mind?, the text does not support the idea that Paul is referring to a single woman at a single church context.

    Third, how many times does God have to say something for it to be true? Since the command is given, admittedly only once, and since it is in the context of how we are to conduct ourselves in the household of God, then we can conclude that once is enough.

    Fourth, if something must be mentioned twice for it to be applied to the church universally, then what do egalitarians do with Hebrews 10:25 which says, “not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.” If a universal command for the church needs to appear more than once, then Hebrews 10:25 is not for the whole Church. Is this a sound principle on which to derive doctrinal truths? Not at all.

    Also, what about Matt. 28:19-20, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The Great Commission is only given once by Jesus. Does there need to be a second witness for it to apply to the Christian church as a whole? Of course not.

    Conclusion

    How many times does God’s word have to say something for it to be true? Once is enough. Therefore, the argument that the command in 1 Tim. 2:12 does not apply universally to the church because such a teaching occurs only once is false.

  209. Linda,
    I can certainly understand how some women feel in CC. I think men can also be treated bad as well. Men are sometimes treated bad in a different way than women. In my CC both men and women were treated badly. The women however were at least able to form their own groups where they could fellowship with each other although some of the groups were very questionable. The men however were left only to support their egotistical pastor’s vision and there was little opportunity for men and women to fellowship together since the groups were so divided between men and women. There were times I would have liked to go to some of the women’s groups when they had good topics but I was stuck having to go to the arrogant men’s group. I had a suggestion for a needed group but I was shut down immediately because the senior pastor didn’t want. Since I left this church and go to a healthy church, I have immediately be called upon to lead and teach. It’s really fascinating to me to see this dynamic.

  210. my 208 in moderation…troo many verses?

  211. Andrew,

    It seems the mens groups are more geared towards teaching the men how to be good givers and the womens groups teach women how to be more submissive rather than assertive.
    I tried to get into the womens ministry and it was one roadblock after another.
    I don’t think my personality “fit” into the kind of women they used.
    I remember being awestruck at how gentle and soft spoken all the women who taught were. I tried for many years to be this type of woman!
    Now I have a different opinion.
    They will not, they cannot go out of the box that was created for them.
    With many of them…They know just when to speak, just what to say, just how to say it.
    They will never challenge leadership or their husbands. They know their place and they know their limits.
    I was surprised however, that they would never entertain a theological conversation.
    Causes division…not good…

  212. Hannah, I had the similar problem fitting into the men’s group. It seemed to be a competition of who could be the most spiritual man. It made me want to gag at times. I am not against separate men and women’s groups per say but it appears Calvary Chapel emphasizes these separate groups so much that the men never get to appreciate what the women have to say and the women never get to see the men in a setting other than what they experience at home. This really creates problems and just leads to a lot of the abuses we see.

  213. Hannah @ 208. I agree with Matt Slick and I like his ministry. But I don’t want these kinds of issues to ever take the spot light off of abuse and the other issues being brought up here.

  214. Andrew

    Thanks for the insight: how funny.

    In my case, being deaf at birth, then at 9 years old, waking one morning hearing my father playing his guitar for the first, which really freaked me out, thus being given by the Lord to have roughly 40% of my hearing, primarily in the lower tones, listening to females is a real challenge at times.

    Socially speaking, I was not able to relate to my own gender. Fortunately, I was quite athletic so was able to join the boys in their world. This has been a mixed blessing to me. I find it very frustrating when the genders are stereotyped or put in a box. Attending a woman’s group for me is “very” challenging, as I hear about one out every 4 words, have to ask for a repeat, which frustrates them. Additionally, I find women talking about 10 different things at once and for me, it’s hard to track.

    As we become adults we each have decide what being male or female means. Unfortunately, we permit society and institutions, like the church to determine that for us. In many ways, I think I have advantage in being more objective regarding what constitutes the two genders. But at the same, it is a challenge because most people have been socialized into sticking within their own gender and then seeing it from that perspective.

    To this day, I don’t understand women cannot go to the ladies room alone. Personally, I find it extremely noisy and unnecessarily crowded.

    So, yeah give me a men’s group any day of the week. At the same time, respect me for the woman that I am. Not who you think I ought to be.

    Andrew, I totally agree with you when speaking of being so adament about separating the two genders. I think this only perpetuates and endores the myths and sterotyples concerning the genders. By integrating them, even by permitting women to teach men, as well, can break down the walls and the fear and paranoia each gender has towards the other. As a clinician, I run mixed groups. Group member never fail to say that at first, they believed this would infringe upon their ability to be opened. But within a couple of weeks, the feedback from both gender was a statement towards being surprised and now understanding how much they did not understand what they thought they knew about the opposite gender. They reported that their communication with their spouses at home improved tremendously.

    So, in terms of abuse—–placing a gender in a box in order fulfill one’s expectation or narcissistic idealization about what it means to be a man or a woman will certainly create an atmosphere of competition, domination, manipulation, and secrets. All which are destructive towards those who are not to have an equal voice in the affairs of the church and in home.

    P.S. As a praise to the Lord report: Audiologist do not understand today, how it is I hear at all. This always opens the door to talk to them about the Cross and to give credit to the Lord, long before I was saved.

  215. Hannah,

    Your description of the ladies group is so right on.

    There was one group I attended more recently that the Pastor’s wife taught or tried to teach the ladies a more indepth study into the word. It was refreshing to see another woman put in the time and effort to delve deeper and to offer it to her group. But even so, the ladies in attendance behave as though they had never opened their Bibles.

    And personally, I really believe this has to do with the church’s teaching or understanding of what it means to be male and female and their respective roles. Yet, credit is given to Timothy’s mother and grandmother for teaching him. And Paul credited a woman and her husband in straightening his understanding out. Even more, significance, she was listed before her husband even time their name was mentioned, which was unheard of in those days.

    So, yes it does create a huge gap in enabling the body of Christ to truely exercise the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit when limitations are such that muzzele either gender from fully particpating and contributing to speaking the truths of Scripture and to live side by side in peace and safety with one another. It breaks my heart when I see a woman lose part of herself in order to not be seen as being less than what she was meant to be.

  216. Linda, praise God for your gift of hearing!

  217. Andrew and Gratefu,

    It is good to be able to freely be able to exercise your gifts.

    LOL So you are each able to be true to your calling!

  218. Andrew

    —-and when things get really bad at times for me, I cannot deny Him or Who I am, in Him, because of this great gift He has given me to remind me, He, alone is God.

  219. Linda, as you should be aware by now, I am no egalitarian but I hope you realize I am not trying to suppress women at all. My concerns are strictly Biblical when it comes to qualifications for elders. I hope this one little thing doesn’t upset you too much but I just can’t overlook this in scripture. Part of my identity in Christ is actually found in my gender and we can learn from scripture what it means to be a man or a women. Grant it, the church doesn’t always do a great job teaching this but there are gender differences mentioned in scripture that are undeniable. If you end up taking egalitarianism too far, it can actually justify things just as homosexuality. Because people then make the argument that I am a man stuck in a women’s body or I am a women that is stuck in a man’s body. After all, if we are all equal in every way right, what difference does it make? But this isn’t what God intended.

  220. Linda. Amen to you #218!

  221. Andrew,

    “If you end up taking egalitarianism too far, it can actually justify things just as homosexuality. Because people then make the argument that I am a man stuck in a women’s body or I am a women that is stuck in a man’s body. After all, if we are all equal in every way right, what difference does it make? But this isn’t what God intended.”

    I totally understand why people take the complementarian position. Not referring to you, Andrew, but in general there is an underlying fear that to be more flexible would invite the justification of homosexuality. However, if people really understand what those who hold to an egalitarian position, they would know that it does not open the door up for homosexulity. But rather celebrates each gender in being able to exercise their gifts and talents.

    I have read and heard various pastors say that the egalitarian position are liberal feminist. This is due to not knowing the facts of how this position was developed and established. As a matter fact, it was due to the homosexual issue, that a group protested and left the “Christian Feminst (which is different, in part to the liberal feminist), vehemently denouncing such teachings within the church.

    Thus, the group, Christian for Biblical Equality” was formed. A very good sight to gain scholastic theological articles regarding these two positions.

    Just know, for years I held the Complementarian position, but as I grew in the Word and began to search various topics which brought to the church Fathers and their arguments and church teachings, while watching, observing, and experiencing just how this position panned out, I also became aware of so many other scriptures that conflicted with this and the expectation or walls that was constructed to, quite frankly, foster an environment that was extremely abusive towards women and children.

    In turn, I was introduced to the Egalitatian position, as a result of my research. I have not taken a position on whether, or not woman is not able to be a pastor. As for Paul teaching that she cannot, I lean more towards this being a mandated during that period of time, as it is placed in the middle of other prohibitions, that are not practiced today.

    So, Andrew—–Naw, not a problem with you taking this position. If one were to read Psalms 31 and tear it apart and see all the talents and skills that the virtuous woman employs beyond her own home, I think more would also understand that it goes far beyond looking after their children and just teaching other woman. At the same, if one would get some really good books written on the Jewish culture that focusies upon gender issues, historically speaking, that is, they would also gain a better understanding of what contexts Paul was speaking.

    So I guess what I am saying is this to everyone: Don’t let fear or the teachings of others form your opinion. Also, go deeper into Scripture, finding out about the culture that is was written, and measuring this with all scriptures pertaining to females mentioned in the Bible. Search out the church fathers beliefs and comments made about the female. Understand that the Egalitarian Position has nothing at all to do with homosexuality and liberal feminism, but rather adamently denounces these things. And above all, ask God to help you to rise above any prejudice or ill concieved notions that are culturally, socially, and institutionally, invented in order to serve one gender over another.

    And whatever you do, don’t let this come between you and another, in Christ.

    Thanks again, Andrew—-

  222. Linda wrote: “I totally understand why people take the complementarian position. Not referring to you, Andrew, but in general there is an underlying fear that to be more flexible would invite the justification of homosexuality. However, if people really understand what those who hold to an egalitarian position, they would know that it does not open the door up for homosexulity. But rather celebrates each gender in being able to exercise their gifts and talents”.

    Homosexuality is just one of many concerns. My bigger concern is actually the atonement of Christ on the Cross. Consider Adam as our Federal head. Christians have no problem with Jesus representing us on the cross. But they often reject the idea of Adam representing us in the garden. But to reject one is to reject the other. Is it fair for Jesus, who committed no sin, to become sin for us and represent us on the cross? Think about it. That is exactly what happened, yet those who deny that Adam represented us in the Garden readily accept that Jesus represented us on the cross. They are inconsistent.

    Now with your statement about celebrating each gender. You actually seem to be making my point that there is distinctions between each gender but what is this based on. What concerns me is what you wrote here: “As we become adults we each have decide what being male or female means”. This has the appearance that you are not basing your criteria of what it means to be male and female on the Bible but on what ever we decide it is as we become adults. To me this is way too subjective.

  223. Andrew,

    A couple of other thoughts:

    1) There is an exercise one can do in understanding just how much they may have formed an unscriptural biased or prejudice concerning the female gender.

    Simply take you Bible out and read Proverbs 7. But exchange he for she and all the other gender identifiers. (Now, before say, “yeah, but, wait a minute,” I’m not referring to those Scriptures in the Bible are gender specific in doing this exercise) Then go to any place in the Bible that has a male idenitier and exchange a female identitier.

    Please know, I am not lobbying to change the Bible like the feminst have tried to do–LOL

    2) Scripture was written using the masculine pronouns, as was appropriate in those days to do so.

    3) Now, go through the entire Bible or get a good concordance and look up all the characteristics of God. Not the attributes, although you could do that to increase your understanding what separates from being able to be God. Then look up the characteristics of Jesus.

    You will find that God in the spirit and God (Jesus) possesses female and male characteristics.

    My whole point here is this:

    1) We as human think that we must be black and while in what constitutes a man vs, what constitutes a woman. In turn, this sets up a huge wall in exercising what society and the church would like us to believe that we cannot under any circumstances demonstrate or access those characteristics that we possess that have been deemed to belong to the opposite gender.

    Yet, Jesus did and so did all the prophets, including Moses, and followers, thereafter.

    2) There is a huge wall that sets up an impediment that says: “In order for me to lead or to feel more like a man, the woman must become less (by being assertive, or taking on any role that goes beyond what I deem to be masculine).. And if she does not, then she is subverting the authority that God has given me. Yet the Bible shown us that woman after woman have been used to do things and to take on roles that may have been “traditionally” ascribed by men.

    Jesus, with the woman at the well was not there to point out or to even accuse her of any sin (s), as many pastors would like to say that she committed.

    We do know why she had been married more than once, yet there is stigma attached to her because of this teaching by Pastors, just as there is a stigma attached a woman who marry more than once today. Yet, when a man is remarried, or even commits adultery, it is treated with less stigmatization and in CC they are permitted to assume the leadership role in the church, even as pastors.

    But rather, this passage was about Jesus crossing the cultural lines of “men only congregating with other men,” as well as, reaching out to those who were not of the Southern Kingdom, known as Judah, but of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and the world beyond the Jewish Nation in order to break through the isolation and ethonocentric attitudes that existed in those days (much like today, –which also include gender biases).

    Here’s another bit of trivia: why did they separate the men in the synogogue from the woman?

    To cut down on the lusting that was going on. But what happened was the women would be put in the back of the synogogue, where it was harder to hear. So, most of the time, they just stayed home. Many Jewish history, found a way to study the Torah anyway. Oftein times, when a girl’s father was a priest, and especialy if she was his only child, he would permit her to learn from the books as well, but in private. This daughter, who would have been of the Levitical tribe was also given extra priveleges such as reading from the Torah on certain days. But these things are not taught by today’s Pastors.

  224. @223

    correction: “Many Jewish history,

    Should read: Historically speaking, many Jewish woman

  225. Linda wrote: “You will find that God in the spirit and God (Jesus) possesses female and male characteristics”.

    Linda, I say this in all sincerity but without serious qualifiers on what you wrote above, you are dangerously close to seriously subverting the Word of God. Jesus was a man. He was the Son of God. He wasn’t the daughter of God. He wan’t a female. When you refer to Jesus having female characteristics, this to me sounds like pycho babble. Jesus was a man born of a virgin women. He spoke of His Father in heaven in the masculine. Don’t misunderstand me, God is a Spirit and He is neither male nor female but in our relationship to God He is to be addressed in masculine terms. Jesus was God in the flesh and there is no ambiguity of whether Jesus was a man or women. He was a man. We in the body of Christ (both men and women) are considered metaphorically in relationship to God feminine as we are the bride of Christ. To me it probably can’t get much clearly to me. The distinctions between men and women have to be preserved if we will ever understand our relationship to God.

    This is probably my last comment I am going to make on the egalitarian vs. complementarian issue. I really don’t think this this is where the attention should be though. I honestly think the heretical Moses Model system of church government is the main culprit in the abuse of both women and men in CC.

  226. Andrew,

    First of all there were “2″ people in the garden, 2 people who sinned, and 2 people who were cast out of the garden and cursed, yet:

    NKJV Gen 1:26 Then god said, “Let Us (trinity) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let “them” have donimion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created “man” in His own image; in the image of God he created “him,” “male and female” he created them.

    Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper “comparable” to him.

    When one says that they have bought an item that is comparable to another, they are saying the two are equal worth and value in providing whatever it is that they were designed to do. Men and women differed on those things that were necessary to be able to procreate. In everyting else, there is no difference, with of the course the hormonal makep being different to enable the physiological processes to take place in order procreate. But in talents, skills, ablity, and intellect, feelings, and thoughts they are the same depending on the temperament each child is while being formed in the womb.

    God called them both “man” but made them to be comparable to one another. Equal and able to have dominion over all that God set before “them.” In order to procreate one man was made in the form of a male and the other in the form of a woman. But neither was above or below the other in reflecting the image of God.

    Andrew, in terms of:

    “Now with your statement about celebrating each gender. You actually seem to be making my point that there is distinctions between each gender but what is this based on. What concerns me is what you wrote here: “As we become adults we each have decide what being male or female means”. This has the appearance that you are not basing your criteria of what it means to be male and female on the Bible but on what ever we decide it is as we become adults. To me this is way too subjective.”

    1) Celebrate the genders by reconizing how God did created man into female and male to procreate, but also to do it in such a way that neither would be less or more than the other, but encouraging each other to be all that God equipped them to be. Not limited by man’s understanding of what each gender ought to be, but rather celebrate God’s gifts of life given to the human race to have a companion and to procreate.

    2) ““As we become adults we each have decide what being male or female means”.
    What is meant by this, Andrew is that from birth, we began to be conditioned to the roles male and females are suppoed to assume. Being so, much of our perspective and understanding of what scripture in its entirety is saying about the human race and its respective gender can be circumvented by these beliefs that forms our understanding of scripture. For instance, if one grew in the deep south and was raised from birth and in the Scriptures, they would think you were crazy or the devil himself, if you told him a black man was half man, or was it 3/4 quarters. Or if you told him to sell his slave, or if you told that woman that she had a right to vote, or if you told that Jew that He was a “Christ killer.” And you would use Scripture to back those things up.

    So, all I am saying is this: what we read in Scripture may be colored by that which has been ingrained in us to believe, not necessarily taking all scripture the cultural context that a specific passage or verse was written. That’s all.

    So, like I said, not a problem with you being a Complentarian, and I trust that me being a Egaliatarian is not a problem to you either. I don’t think either is critical to our salvation.

    Just so you know, I am not a liberal but identify as a fundamental, probably more conservative than evangelical, but not amilinialist. Yet Calvinistic but not rigidly so. LOL

  227. NKJV Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper “comparable” to him.

    NKJV I Cor 11:11-12

    Nevertheless , neither is man independent of woman, nor woman indpendent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

    NKJV I Cor 7:4

    The wife does not have authoity over her own body, but the husband does. “And likewise,” the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

    Scripture reference showing an “interdependence” going on between the two gender.

    Anyway, that’s a partical response to you, Andrew. As I said, I used take and defend the complemenatian position like you, but as many are now moving away from this position in many fundamental churches on this issue, so have I.

  228. Andrew,

    Calm down—when the Bible tells us that God hold us close to his bosom, is that not a nurturing characteristic ? and if it is, isn’t it said to be a femine trait.

    All you have to do is list the character traits that is ascribed to women, such as caring, warmth, understanding, loving, gentle, kind, considerate, meek, humble and so forth.

    Now tell me that Jesus did not exhibit these things. Tell me that God in the Spirit did not exhibit these things.

    Read the verses in Genesis pertaining to what God said, “Let us make man” and So God created man “in His own image;” “in the image of God,” He created him; female and male.

    That’s what Scripture says, Andrew.

  229. Andrew,

    My response are hung in moderation due to Scripture references. Please know this that I am in total agreement with what you stated:

    “This is probably my last comment I am going to make on the egalitarian vs. complementarian issue. I really don’t think this this is where the attention should be though. I honestly think the heretical Moses Model system of church government is the main culprit in the abuse of both women and men in CC.”

    Amen, LP

  230. Andrew@213 Hannah @ I agree with Matt Slick and I like his ministry. But I don’t want these kinds of issues to ever take the spot light off of abuse and the other issues being brought up here.

    Andrew- I was just adding to the conversation you were already having with Linda… I’m a bit confused….

  231. Hannah, sorry if I confused you. I was trying to kind of change the topic away from complementarian vs. egalitarian because it seemed to generate a lot of emotion with Linda but I didn’t do a very good job at that. LOL.

    Linda, I promise this really is my last response regarding this issue. you wrote this: “All you have to do is list the character traits that is ascribed to women, such as caring, warmth, understanding, loving, gentle, kind, considerate, meek, humble and so forth”

    When I read this list I cannot help but reference this to the fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control. Out of this list you mentioned at least 3 that are directly the fruit of the Spirit. These are neither female of male character traits but rather the fruit of the Spirit that all Christians should have. I agree with you that society can and does influence what the genders should or should not be but I am not referring to what society says or what psychology says or what sociologists say. I am referring to what the Bible says.

    My concern is this Linda. You seem to be attempting to paint a picture that Jesus was androgynous. Other than the sex organs and the associated hormones needed for procreation you appear to be making a statement that males and females are absolutely identical. I don’t buy this rationale and I don’t think it jives with scripture. Yes, in Gods eyes we have identical value and salvation is exactly the same but we have different roles particularly in a marriage.

    Just to take one scripture that you mentioned maybe you could explain to me this from an egalitarian point of view. And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper “comparable” to him.

    So with just this scripture, if the egalitarian approach is right why didn’t God make the man and women at the same time and make them each others helpers? You can try to rewrite the Bible all you want and change the pronouns from “He” to “She” as you suggested in a previous comment but Eve was made as a helper for Adam. I don’t think this means that Adam didn’t help Eve out at all but it probably means that Adam needed some help. And Eve was perfectly suited for this task. To say otherwise, I think you would need to completely distort the scriptures.

    I hope I haven’t offended you but I am trying to remain true to scriptures and not my personal opinions. I would just assume have a women pastor or elder but I don’t see this anywhere is scripture and I need to trust the Word of God first and not my emotions.

  232. Andrew,

    You have offended me in any way, shape, or form. Like you, I agree, I need to trust the Word of God. And He has told that our thoughts are not his thoughts, nor is our way his way.

    God could have made both them at the same time, but He didn’t, but instead He took the woman from the man’s side—-now if the man does possess anything feminine, then how is genetically speaking that a woman would possess characteristic, such as you claim to belong only to the Holy Spirit, When in fact, people who do not possess the Holy Spirit exhibits these characteristics?

    Jesus had told to love one another. That means we are to be reciprocal in our care, concern, support, and encouragement towards each other.

    What more, Jesus could have come in the form of a female, but if He had, can you imagine what problems that would have created in a very patrichel society? I would pray that as you read your Bible that the Lord would bring to you attention each time Scripture describes a characteristic of any person of the trinity that would be gender related.

    Jesus was able to identify with women, as much as he was able to identiy with men. Androgeny has nothing to do with the Egalitarian Position. I hope you decide to take a visit over to the site for Christian Biblical Equality so you can get a better clarification for the concerns that you raised. I think you will be quite surprised, just as I was.

    Anyway, women need the support and companionship that men would like to have from women. I think this is what many people fail to understand thinking that women are just there for the man. My response on this is: who is there for the woman, if not her husband. And not on the terms that is only catering to his ego and his pride, but rather to be a whole person who encouraged to be all that she can be in Christ, according God’s word and not man’s idea of a woman.

    So, like you stated, I would encourage everyone to be objective and not get caught in their emotions. I think I’ve already mention before, as well as, consider the entire Bible concerning these things. Always putting it in the cultural context that it was written and not to build a position or an argument base on learned beliefs and values.

    Sounds like I hit some hot buttons with Andrew. It was not my intent to offend either. Ti

  233. Darn, the presidential debate came on and I hit the return to soon.

    Here’s an edited copy.

    You have offended me in any way, shape, or form. Like you, I agree, I need to trust the Word of God. And He has told that our thoughts are not his thoughts, nor is our way his way.

    God could have made both them at the same time, but He didn’t, but instead He took the woman from the man’s side—-now if the man does n0t possess anything feminine, then how, genetically speaking, is it possible for a woman to possess characteristic, such as you claim to belong only to the Holy Spirit, when in fact, men and women, who do not possess the Holy Spirit exhibits these characteristics?

    Jesus told us to love one another. That means we are to be reciprocal in our care, concern, support, and encouragement towards each other. We are not to put more emphasis on authority over the mandate to love one another. Whether, or not we are married, single, divorce, or separated.

    What more, Jesus could have come in the form of a female, but if He had, can you imagine what problems that would have created in a very patriarchal society? I would pray that as you read your Bible that the Lord would bring to you attention each time Scripture describes a characteristic of any person of the trinity that would be what we refer to as gender ascribed.

    Jesus was able to identify with women, as much as He was able to identify with men. Androgyny has nothing to do with the Egalitarian Position, yet this is a fear tactic that is used often to justify the compleme ntation position. I hope you decide to take a visit over to the site for Christian Biblical Equality so you can get a better clarification for the concerns that you raised. I think you will be quite surprised, just as I was.

    Anyway, women need the support and companionship that men would like to have from women. I think this is what many people fail to understand thinking that women are just there for the man. Scripture tells us that God made woman for the man—but not in terms of a woman should be at a man’s feet just waiting to become whatever it is he needs her to be to satisfy his needs alonge. Woman was made to be a companion, a friend, a lover, a mentor, a teacher, an advisor to help make decisions together, not to help him bild his own little kingdom while leaving her to herself to get the same things elsewhere. It was because, there was any other creature around that could feel and think like the man does, that a woman was taken from his rib, made in the image of God: female and male.

    My response on this is: who is there for the woman, if not her husband. And not on the terms that is only catering to his ego and his pride, but rather to be a whole person who encouraged to be all that she can be in Christ, according God’s word and not man’s idea of a woman. . “To fit,” means to do what none of the other creatures that God made could do. To be as human as he was with the similar needs, wants, desires, and the ability to reason and to communicate with the man, being human as well.

    So, like you stated, I would encourage everyone to be objective and not get caught in his or her emotions. I think I’ve already mentioned before, as well as, consider the entire Bible concerning these things. Always putting it in the cultural context that it was written and not to build a position or an argument base on learned beliefs and values. Measure all things under the light of the Word of God and last of all, always willing to change regardless of what you have become accustomed to believing and behaving accordingly.
    Sounds like I hit some hot buttons with you, Andrew. It was not my intent to offend either.

  234. Linda wrote @ 232 What more, Jesus could have come in the form of a female, but if He had, can you imagine what problems that would have created in a very patrichel society?

    Wow! I am blown away by your statement. This sounds exactly like liberal feminism that you claim to not be. Your theology seems to be based more or reading fiction novels like the “Shack” than the Bible. Seriously Linda, this is dangerous stuff you are advocating. I agree with you on so much but when you start making statements about God and Jesus and the trinity and you make these wild conjectures, it actually is very dangerous. This is where I draw the line. I say this with deep conviction and when you say you hit a button with me, that is an understatement not because you are offending me personally but rather because you are distorting Biblical truth big time.

  235. Linda wrote @ 232 What more, Jesus could have come in the form of a female, but if He had, can you imagine what problems that would have created in a very patrichel society?

    Consider this also. Jesus took the form of a man forever. Once you understand the incarnation, you begin to realize that the Son of God took on the form of a man forever not just here in this so called paternal society but in heaven for all eternity. For all eternity, the Son of God has human flesh in the form of a man. This will never change. This notion that Jesus could have taken the form of a women when he came is pure conjecture based on your understanding of a paternal society. But this doesn’t explain the fact that Jesus has taken the form of a man (not a women) for all eternity in heaven.

  236. WOW!

  237. Andrew,

    You misunderstand me. Completely and totally. LOL

    All I was saying is God could have done all kinds of things, in all kinds of ways, all at once, or in a particular order. And because He created one, then took woman from the man’s side does not necessarily mean this or that. What more is just because Jesus has a dual nature of being God and man, it does not mean that He does possess only masculine characteristics. What more, it is you that stated the the fruit of the Holy Spirit was those that would be define as femine traits.

    I think the book, “The Shack” is a bunch of garbage. What more to say that God in Spirit and God in Jesus does not exhibit what we would consider to be femine traits is a huge error on your part in light of so many scripture throughout the Bible. Is not God, a God of compassion, understanding, mercy, grace, love?

    What more did not God say that He made man, female and male? Did He not say that they were made in His image, female and male?

    What really bothers me, Andrew is your position that those characteristics that society has deemed as being feminie and masculine, you deny men and woman alike can possible a combination of each. Yet, in the Bible it reflects our Savior, Our God in human form as being a very compassionate and nurturing person: Matthew 23:37, Isaiah 66:13, Luke 15:8-10, Psalms 22:9-10, Psalms 71:19, Isaiah 66:9, Hosea 13:8.

    When we think of God’s love for those who are reconciled to him in Jesus, we not only think of a strong, protective and wise father, but we can also bask in his tender, nurturing, comforting care seen most beautifully in a mother’s love for her child. What a dynamic God we worship! http://www.moodychurch.org/crossroads/blog/gods-feminine-attributes/

    Andrew, IMO, it is because I have told you that I support the Egalitarian Position, that you are thinking that what I am saying is framed in “feminism.” When in fact, that is the last thing I am saying. Also, it is due to your misunderstanding of what “Christian for Biblical Equality” is about due to your presumption that it is drenched and baptised in feminism. which a huge error on your part.

    So the arguments that you keep on posing to counter anything I have shared is so off-centered. I think you are very defensive and have leaped to assumptions rather, than to hear what I stated and I think this is in part, due to the arguments you heard by others who take the complementarian position. Not because of personally investigating the CBE and understanding who they are and who they are not.

    Andrew, it’s just not all that black and while when we talk about genders. I know by the postings that you have made on this site, that you are a man of compassion and that your heart is tender towards those who have or are being abused within the church, either by the leadership, or by others. I know that when I have made comments, you have been very understanding, patient, and kind. Yet, in on this topic, a bit lop-sided, as you took my meaning to a place where I don’t even reside.

    I do hope you decide to visit and to review the free articles thaty have on their site to help you understand this is not a “feminist” deal going on at all. I would also encourage to copy my comments for you to be able to refer back to them as you come to understand that what you thought I was saying what not at all what I meant and also see just how defensive one can be when discussing this topic when making false assumptions.

    Anyway, here’s another article to help understand what I am saying and where I am coming from. Hope, it clears things up for you.

    http://www.moodychurch.org/crossroads/blog/gods-feminine-attributes/
    http://www.gotquestions.org/God-male-female.html

  238. Andrew @ 235

    I am rolling in my chair——LOL

    When I posed this statement, LOL, I was musing. My goodness, Andrew, everyone does this from time to time.

    Ironically, your response, LOL, proved my point!!!! LOL

    In all seriousness, though Andrew, I have stated my position. It is your assumptions that does not permit you to hearing me. I can’t help you with this, except to say that this is a huge hot bottom with you, that renders you at a disadvantage of hearing what I said.

    Truely, no offense meant.

  239. Linda,

    Possible I completely misunderstand you. But you are not quite getting what I am saying either. I recently got back from a new age wedding with a universalist pastor. What I found so interesting is how he addressed God as father and mother and sister and brother and that we were all deity stemming from billions upon billions of years of cosmic evolution coming from the divine spark of love. You see Linda, unless we take theology seriously it can and does lead to all kinds of aberrant teaching. All you really seem to be focused on is equality for women. And by the way I am all for equality of women. Only thing I am saying is that there appears to be a prohibition of women elders in the Bible. That is it. Women can be senators, presidents, judges, CEOs, doctors, counselors, etc. but God says no when it comes to elders. Why is this such a concern for you? When you say God could have done it this way or that way, it is pure speculation and specifically when it comes to theology we can only deal with what God has revealed not what we want or what could be different. The scriptures are full of metaphors but you don’t build a theology off of a metaphor. I agree with you that God is spirit. He is neither male nor female but you continue to argue with me and not sure why. Jesus taught us how to pray and we are to pray to the Father in heaven not our Mother in heaven. If you have a problem with this, you need to take this concern up with Jesus himself. Yes, there are metaphors in scripture where God uses motherly or feminine traits to describe himself but to build a theology off of a metaphor is like building a house on sand. It is only a metaphor.

  240. Andrew @ 231

    Re: exchanging he for she.

    The exercise I suggested was for the purpose of saying that many times people think that the Bible is primarily speaking to men, for instance: when Scripture might say something like, “Bretheren, . . ..

    I have actually heard many men say that because of this, they, being men have a corner of God, that women do not. On the other hand, I have also heard women say that, it’s really difficult to identify with Scripture when everything appears to be male oriented.

    So what happens, is the male that thinks this way sees the female gender as being sort of a by product, rather than, understanding that using masculine pronouns does not imply that the passage is not speaking to the female gender as well. Likewise, in terms of the female getting the impression that when masculine pronouns are being used, it does not apply to her as well. So, in suggesting this exercise, I was attempting to get this point across to you and anyone that reads the post. Proverbs 7 was a perfect example of this. Many people, and I do mean many, think that harlotry is gender specific, when in fact men can be very seductive, charming, and whorish. And just as a proof of this, think about all the Pastors that have been accused of committing adultery or fornication. Yet, because of this passage, many people would say that it was the woman who seduced him. When in fact, it could have well been the man who misused his authority for to satiated his ungodly desires.

    So, in suggesting this exercise, again it was to drive home just how much Scripture, being written in the masculine, can be and often is viewed as man being far superior and authoritative than a woman can be, while also thinking that somehow the male gender is a mediator between woman and God. When in fact they are just masculine pronouns that is addressing females and males, alike. We know this because we are told in Scripture that each of us is responsible for our own sins and that each of us, be it male or female must work out their own salvation in fear and trembling. We are also told that there is only one mediator between us and the Father for male and female, alike.

    Gender issues can be quite complicated, depending on one’s understanding what it means to be female or male. Doesn’t have to be that way, but when we put either in a “black and white” or “all or nothing” box, just as we do with God when discussing attributes, characteristics, and the patriachel or matriachel framework, it does create much confusion and heated debate. I don’t abide with either. Does that make me androgenous—-absolutelty not. It could just make me on target with what God has written and ordained. It could be and I believe that it is from all that the Bible teaches us, that it God’s purpose for the human race was not to be either patriachel or matriarchel.

    Men can be just as nurturing and loving and kind and sympathetic or compassionate as females. And women can be as protective, as assertive, as decisive, and rationale as males. Why, because we are humans and these are characteristic common to both genders, although society have place more importance the genders to act as though to posses this or that characteristic makes them less than a male, or less than a female. I am not speaking of physical characteristic, but rather those things that God has given both genders to enable them to relate to one another. It’s simply is not a case of you, being man must make the decisions, while I defer to you, simply because you are a male. But rather, to come together to reason these things out between us in making the best decision concerning all that is set before us as people in the Lord.

  241. Andrew,

    I think our conversation evolved into a much lengthier discourse than either of us intended due to your understanding that what I was sharing came across to you as being “feminism.” From that point, anything I tried to shared, you heard it with the “feminism” spin being placed upon it. Based on your assumption, but not really hearing me, you locked down and became very rigid in your thinking, rather than to allowed and given room for the normal thinking that transcends the box you had decided to place me in. Andrew, doing this enables a process of understanding through the usage examples, hypotheticals, word pictures, or alternate considerations.

    What more, Andrew, do you really believe that individuals do not spend an ordinate amount of time considering throughout the ages what and who God is and how we relate or what signicance we have in this vast universe He’s created or why people pour scripture and write thousand upon thousand of books to explain or expound upon what we do know about Him in Scripture, yet find it necessary to reason these things out with one another?

    And much of this had to do with when I made the statement to the effect that man and woman can each possess female and male characteristics, alike—–

    You, in part stated: “Why is this such a concern for you? When you say God could have done it this way or that way, it is pure speculation and specifically when it comes to theology we can only deal with what God has revealed not what we want or what could be different.”

    Andrew, when reasoning these things out, it is normal to use speculation as a part of the thinking process. It is the theology that has to do with gender roles that is in question. Not God’s Word. It is theology that poses what God has revealed that is being debated, not what God has revealed. Theology = study of God. And base on a particular set of tenets, teachings are put forth. Whether they are accurete or inaccurate this does not change God’s Word. It only reflects the belief and understanding that an individual or group may have concerning God’s Word base on the assumptions and proposition made from many factors, including social and cultural believes and values. Yet, it could very well miss the entire mark, just as what you share in observing the wedding that you attended.

    So, just because I say equality for females does not mean I am excluding males.

    You also stated:

    “we are to pray to the Father in heaven not our Mother in heaven. If you have a problem with this, you need to take this concern up with Jesus himself. Yes, there are metaphors in scripture where God uses motherly or feminine traits to describe himself but to build a theology off of a metaphor is like building a house on sand. It is only a metaphor.”

    Really. when I pray to the Father, I see him as a very loving, yet just God. In these terms, I see the tenderdeness that would be described in our society as being a female characteristic, yet I know that even a male can posses this characteristic as well. And if you, Andrew were to exhibit this towards another, as a human, being a male, this would not make you any less male and more female. It just means that you can possess a character trait that is viewed as being feminine, that’s all.

    So in terms of speaking of Biblical Equalities, it is in terms of female and male, alike. So, in your understanding as you stated at the very get go of this discourse of ours, you support the Complementarian position and I support the Egalitarian position. And that’s okay, ———at least that is what you stated.

    I would still encourage to vist the site for Christian for Biblical Equality, because Andrew, you really misunderstood most of what I tried to share with you.

  242. Andrew,

    I’m sorry. I forgot to include saying that I think we are closer in our understanding of God’s Word than we are apart. Just leave out the assumpiton of “feminism” and you will see what I mean.

    Shalom, in Jesus

  243. Linda, you make some interesting points but you are missing my point. Scripture is God breathed. I honestly believe that every word is inspired. As Jesus said, not one jot or tiddle is to be removed. I can not help but think that the pronouns that God himself has chosen in His Word are there for a reason and are important and are not to be so quickly changed just because you solely think its a cultural societal thing. I don’t like your exercise at all for this reason alone.

    With that said you constantly keep making reference to the way society determines gender specifics, etc. and make absolutely no mention of God’s created order. This is alarming. Has it ever occurred to you that possibly some of what we see in society is in fact partly the result of God’s created order although marred because of the fall? I get the feeling that you are the type of person just to make a point would at a wedding as the bride would wear the tuxedo and have the groom wear the wedding gown and veil while he marches down the isle to the wedding song and is given away by his mother to be your husband. At some point Linda, I think you have to realize that you are just taking things too far extreme. There is nothing wrong with society norms regarding genders and they may be slightly different in different cultures but I think what we see in most cultures is somewhat a reflection of God’s created order considering of course the massive fall that happened. But you seem to think that any society norms concerning gender is completely wrong.

  244. Andrew @ 239

    ” I agree with you that God is spirit. He is neither male nor female but you continue to argue with me and not sure why.”

    Andrew @ 235

    “Consider this also. Jesus took the form of a man forever. Once you understand the incarnation, you begin to realize that the Son of God took on the form of a man forever not just here in this so called paternal society but in heaven for all eternity. For all eternity, the Son of God has human flesh in the form of a man. This will never change. This notion that Jesus could have taken the form of a women when he came is pure conjecture based on your understanding of a paternal society. But this doesn’t explain the fact that Jesus has taken the form of a man (not a women) for all eternity in heaven.”

    Andrew, you contradicted yourself. What more, you missed the whole point.

    Also, “this notion” was purely posed for sake of saying God can do whatever He wants to do regardless of the meaning we would like to put upon it. He doesn’t tell us why, but one of our speculations could be related to if God had come in the form of a woman instead. Has nothing at all to do with feminism, whatsoever.

  245. Linda @ 240 wrote: We are also told that there is only one mediator between us and the Father for male and female, alike.

    Linda, I know you think I am being rigid in my understanding but you half way quoted a Bible verse to make a point that actually makes mine. The full verse is 1 Timothy 2:5. It says: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”. The “men” in this verse is referring to all people (men and women) as you correctly point out but what you fail to recognize is that it is in fact a “man” Christ Jesus that is the mediator. But reading your commentary, I am not sure you really understand this.

  246. Linda @ 244. Andrew, you contradicted yourself. What more, you missed the whole point.

    I don’t think I contradicted myself at all. Jesus has two natures united in one person. Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man.

  247. Andrew,

    I can see that you are thinking through all of this and I so do appreciate you doing so.

    Please do not be concerned about me taking these things to an extreme. As I said, I am not a feminsist or a chauvinist (counter part of feminism). As a matter of record, when going to USC back in the 80′s I was encouraged to leave the Social Work Program, as it was at it’s height of promoting the feminist movement. It due to my Christian foundation and writing a essay on God’s love that sounded the alarm to them on my ability to “fit” in their program. I had been awared a full scholarship based on grades and a 20 person panel interview asking me what book had been most influential in my life. I spent nearly 2 hours talking about the Bible. This panel was not associated with the School of Social Work.

    I think it would be better for us to end our discourse here. As I have stated in the above and will do so again, here—-visit the site for Christian Biblical Equality. It will clarify things for you and help you to understand it has nothing to do with the tenets of feminism or homosexuality. There are many scholarly articles available. I would suggest you begin with the “Princilla Paper.” Then move on from there.

    As for me, it does not matter who speaks God Word, as long as it is truth.

    Joel 2:28
    Acts 2:17

    Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

  248. Andrew,

    Jesus, being a man does not give you, as a man preemnince over a woman. Get over it!

    Jesus, being a man in the flesh—–so what.

    Jesus, being a man in the flesh does not establish the authority or supeiority over females.

    God made them equal. Galatians 3:28. End of story.

  249. @ 248 “Jesus, being a man in the flesh does not establish the authority or supeiority over females.

    Correction: Should read: Jesus, being a man in the flesh does not establish the male’s authority or superiority or females.

    Andrew

    NKJV Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper “comparable” to him.

    NKJV I Cor 11:11-12

    Nevertheless , neither is man independent of woman, nor woman indpendent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

    NKJV I Cor 7:4

    The wife does not have authoity over her own body, but the husband does. “And likewise,” the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

    Scripture reference showing an “interdependence” going on between the two gender.

    One final thought: it is precisely these worldly beliefs, values, and traditions of the genders that have been fostered and then perpetuated into our justifying the abuses that take place within the church using God’s Word. Even in the midst of our leadership who teaches God’s word and then wonder why these things have and are taking place.

  250. Ok, I’ll say it. Linda, for someone who claims to be a highly educated therapist, some of your posts lack tact and are downright condescending.  As much time as you put into posting, it would behoove you to proofread for tone, grammar, and succinctness.  You have shut down others by saying, “I don’t want to detract from the point of this post…”, but that is what you do.  I expect a rebuttal but will not respond since this is all I have to say.

  251. with NuFan.

  252. yep…enough ranting from linda popoff

  253. WOW–guess, I hit a few buttons.

    Honestly, I didn’t mean to offend anyone.

  254. Nu-fan, Hav to agree, Once a guru,

    No rebuttal is needed. My heart was in the right place. As for proofread for tone, grammar, and succinctness, the tone stands as, the grammar is due to being deaf at birth, so tenses are often missed by me, succinctness is difficult when I have said something, yet it gets misconstued, so a longer explanation then seems to be warranted. As for me be a well-educated therapist, this has nothing to do with the topic being discussed and was used as a slam due to your inability to control your need to vent, due to what sounds like you being offended.

    Thanks for making my point for me. Like I said this topic often evokes strong feelings. This, in part is why it is important for people to pay attention to Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors. Most people do not understand what constitute abuse. If they did, they would be so gun ho about the complementarian position and they certainly would not be so adverse towards those who support biblical eqaulity for Christian. For they would, at the bare minimum be willing to “hear” what it is about, rather than to get all up in the air and say things that are totally off the wall based on false assumptions.

    Have a good day. I will.

  255. Edited Copy

    Nu-fan, Hav to agree, Once a guru,

    Your bullet comments were offensive and rude. I do not neet to rebutt them, but I will say this:

    My heart was in the right place. As for proofreading for tone, grammar, and succinctness, the tone stands as is, the grammar is due to being deaf at birth, so tenses are often missed by me, and succinctness is difficult when I have said something, yet it gets misconstrued, so a longer explanation may then follow.

    As for me being a well-educated therapist, this has nothing to do with the topic being discussed, therefore, your comment was used as a slam due to your inability to control your need to vent, due to what sounds as though you felt offended by what I shared.

    Thanks for making my point for me. Like I said this topic often evokes strong feelings. This, in part is why it is important for people to pay attention to Pastor Jeff’s letter to Pastors. Most people do not understand what constitute abuse. If they did, they would not be so gun ho, rigid, or locked down about the complementarian position and they certainly would not be so adverse to towards “hearing” those who support biblical equality for Christians.

    At the bare minimum be willing to “hear” what it is about, rather than to get all up in the air and say things that are supposed to be a slam against the person who have ruffled your feathers. Using my profession or issues you may be having with my writing has zero to do with what I shared. It does not invalidate what I shared. It may be distracting and and irritant.

    I really do try to catch the typos and tenses. I have on other post explained the reason why this is a common occurrence with me. I know this can be an irritant for some. But to use it against me to slam me, is rude and and only a reflection of your own heart. Please keep in mind that my posts were done in the order that Andrew’s post came on line, meaning that while I may have been writing, he may have posted something, and likewise with him.

    I would like to think that if we had been face to face with one another, a better understanding would have been obtained on the subject being discussed. That is why, I came to the point of just encouraging Andrew to go to the CBE site. I think neither of us wanted to distract from Alex agenda’s, but because of a misuderstanding of what I shared prompted further discussion, it became lengthy.

    In a very large part, what just took place here on this site is very much what we are stating that has taken place with CC leadership? Think about it.

  256. Andrew,

    I reread one of your posts:

    “I get the feeling that you are the type of person just to make a point would at a wedding as the bride would wear the tuxedo and have the groom wear the wedding gown and veil while he marches down the isle to the wedding song and is given away by his mother to be your husband. At some point Linda, I think you have to realize that you are just taking things too far extreme. There is nothing wrong with society norms regarding genders and they may be slightly different in different cultures but I think what we see in most cultures is somewhat a reflection of God’s created order considering of course the massive fall that happened. But you seem to think that any society norms concerning gender is completely wrong.”

    Andrew, this is another assumption that is being made by you. Being so, it cannot be projected or put upon me. If anything, you are being extreme instead.

    Oh, and by the way, androgeny has nothing to do with sexuality:

    “androgyny is not an eradication of being female or male. It has nothing to do with your sexuality. It does not dictate the way you dress, or whether or not you wear make-up or have a beard. Being androgynous, rather, means that you have characteristics commonly associated with the female gender as well as those commonly associated with the male gender. (Note that while behaviors are often associated with males or females, most behaviors are not inherently male or female, but are more likely learned through the socialization process.)” http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2012/09/androgyny/

    As a child due to my hearing disability and not being able to socialize with other little girls, I found it much easier to socialize with liitle boys and particpated in sports instead. Some people refer to this as being a tomboy and others would have gone to the extreme of thinking I might be setting myself up to become a lesbian. Neither is true, I am as much female and any other sister in the Lord. At the same time, though I do not speak, using the hundreds of nuances that female uses, does that make me any less female — absolutely not. It just means that i don’t fit in the stereotype box that society has placed upon their expectation of what it means to be female. That’s all.

    Andrew, I agree with you that God has created all things. But if you mean to say that God’s divine order is that man is to have authority over a woman, then please show me scripture to back this up. Creating man before woman is not proof, for if it was, then we would have to say that all the things God made prior to man, is above him. We know that does not hold true. To use the scripture where it says that man is head of the woman and Christ is head of the church also does not establish a divine order. Not if it saying that “head” is meaning a “protective” covering and other scriptures tell us that male and female are responsible for their own sins and have to stand individually before the Lord to give an account of that they did with what God gave to them.

    And for women who are not married, then what. And if they have no male relatives, then what. This “sort” of reminds me of when the woman and her sisters went to Moses to make a ruling on their ability to inherit the land, because the father, had no sons to pass his inheritance and because it was “traditionally” forbidden for woman to own land. From that point forward, women could own land even if they were to be married in the future.

    Anyway, the topic relating to the equality or inequality of male and female based on biblical grounds can evoke many emotions, thoughts, and unfortunately division at times. The latter is certainly not my desire. But at the same time, if our understanding of Scripture have led us to a point where men, women, and children are being abused emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, sexually, economically, and/or physically by those in the church and leaven has entered in and its leadership is ignoring this by using tactics to silence these victims, such as as, labeling them to be rebellious or trouble makers, then obviously there is an underlying core beliefs that is being reinforced by the misinterpretation of Scripture of authority and the divine order.

    The Moses Model is an example of this. According to CC, it is evident that the order set forth in this model is in line with Scripture, therefore, the model justifies the way things are done and nothing needs to be changed and these troublemakers need to either find another church or submit by admitting that if they would just go along, then they would see that it is not abuse at all. So CC refuses to admit that the Moses Model is unsciriptural, therefore, they have pointed the finger back at the abused. Just as Alex’s stepfather has doone with him. So nothing changes, hearts broken, marriage are torn asunder and families are destroyed, just because the abuser who do not want to consider that that their interpretation of scripture that justified the abuse was wrong.

    And this is why I have changed my position from the complementarian position to align with that of Christian for Biblical Equality which has nothing to do with feminism, homosexuality, or the loss of one’s gender. For those who have drawn assumptions, thus taking the risk of also going to extremes in what they think Christians for Biblical Equality are about, it is unfortunate. But like I have stated, it’s not any different than what CC leadership does in holding fast to its Moses Model. And believe it or not, the Moses model is just another form of unscriptural use of authority involving the church.

  257. Linda,

    I am saddened from reading your last paragraph that you view anyone that doesn’t subscribe the Christians for Biblical Equality stance on women as elders to be in the same camp as CC that holds to the Moses Model and moreover a narcisist. I think this is a completely different topic all together and as I have said many times now in many ways I am all for women’s equality. Women can be presidents, senators, CEOs, lawyers, doctors, entrepreneurs, counselors, business owners, judges, scientists, inventors, etc…But I firmly disagree with the Christians for Biblical Equality organization that insists that women can be pastors and elders solely on Biblical grounds. To this I believe they are in rebellion to God. But to put all who disagree with you on this topic in the same category as a Moses Model pastor is quite radical in my humble opinion.

    And what you said in 248 is completely unjustified and unfair: “Jesus, being a man does not give you, as a man preemnince over a woman. Get over it!”

    I never once said any man has preeminince over a woman. I never once said anything even close to this. Give every man on this blog a break Linda. I have been very thoughtful and understanding of you but when it comes to scripture and theology, I am sorry Linda I am under deep conviction that a women should not be an elder. I didn’t say this. This is not my opinion. This is what the scriptures say.

  258. Andrew

    “I am saddened from reading your last paragraph that you view anyone that doesn’t subscribe the Christians for Biblical Equality stance on women as elders to be in the same camp as CC that holds to the Moses Model and moreover a narcisist.

    I wasn’t saying that at all. That would be utterly rediculous to assune this. I was referring to what we “legitimately” complain of regarding the Moses Model and how it misuses authority in locking or blocking the leadership from going beyond this systemic way looking at things to hear what may not be scriptural after all.

    Just as many will do when bringing up the issues of biblical issues of gender equality. Andrew you assume too much. And you make generalized statements such as: “Give every man on this blog a break Linda.”

    From what I can gather, is that because you believe what you do, anything that even hints at challenging you on this is a real hot buttom with you—-and Andrew. Because of the many assumptions and generalization you have somehow come up with pertaining to what I shared. Yet, in truth they are your own.

    Since you continue to do this and it appear it was getting you more upset, I thought it best to suggest that you visit the CBE site. But you won’t even do that. So, what happens you’re stuck—Andrew. Just like the CC leadership is on the Moses Model.

  259. Please permit me to rewrite this paragraph:

    I wasn’t saying that at all. That would be utterly rediculous to assune this. I was referring to what we “legitimately” complain of regarding the Moses Model and how it misuses authority in locking or blocking the leadership from going beyond this systemic way looking at things to hear what may not be scriptural after all.

    I wasn’t saying this at all. For me, to assume this or anyone else, would not be logical. Let me say it in another way, the leadership of the Moses Model is locked into what to believe scripture means. And although there is obvious damaged being done to the body of Christ, it is due to what they believe scripture means that they close their eyes and ears from being able to see and hear beyond this. Likewise, the assumptions and the meanings that you have placed upon what I’ve said is based on you complementarian position. Not on what I have truely stated.

    I was speaking directly to you, Andrew. And unless you are willing to visit the CBE site, you are unprepared to speak any further on this. Simply because of all statements you made in saying that I believe this or that which are totally untrue. And rather continue this stream, you can just go over to the site and get a better understanding. Because, truely Andrew—-you miss the whole point. I know what you were speaking about, but it had little to do with the characteristics of genders, in terms of equality.

    As stated at a much earlier point, my position of church leadership is still being formed, but at the same time, I don’t care who teaches the word, including a child if its true. For if God can speak through a Jackass, He can speak through women and children as well.

    Andrew, you are really caught in this thing about because Jesus was a man—-therefore. Please hear me on this: what you think I said is so far from what you have assumed that you have heard, and what I did say you could not hear because of assuming where what I meant.

    You didn’t even hear me when I had posted how kind, encouraging , and helpful you had bee towards on other posts.

  260. Please permit me to rewrite this paragraph:

    I wasn’t saying that at all. That would be utterly rediculous to assune this. I was referring to what we “legitimately” complain of regarding the Moses Model and how it misuses authority in locking or blocking the leadership from going beyond this systemic way looking at things to hear what may not be scriptural after all.

    I wasn’t saying this at all. For me, to assume this or to generalize it to everyone else, would not be logical. Let me say it in another way: The leadership of the Moses Model is locked into what they believe scripture to means. they have protected the Moses Model by protecting, nurturing, and feeding it, by using Scripture, although in error, to reinforce the systemic way of believing and doing things. And although there is obvious damaged being done to the body of Christ, they close their eyes and ears from being able to see and hear beyond this. Becuase they themselves, cannot see, hear, and understand beyond what they have locked themselves into: the Mose Model.

    Likewise, the assumptions and the meanings that you have placed upon what I’ve said is based on you complementarian position. Not on what I have truely stated.

    I was speaking directly to you, Andrew. And unless you are willing to visit the CBE site, you are unprepared to discuss this, because you cannot hear someone else say anything different than what you believe about something that is outside of the complimentarian position. All statements you made in saying that I believe this or that which are totally untrue. And rather than to continue this stream, you can just go over to the site and get a better understanding. Because, truely Andrew—-you miss the whole point. I know what you were speaking about, but it had little to do with the characteristics of genders, in terms of equality.

    As stated, at a much earlier point, my position of church leadership is still being formed, but at the same time, I don’t care who teaches the word, including a child if its true. For if God can speak through a Jackass, He can speak through women and children as well.

    Andrew, you are really caught up in this thing that because Jesus was a man—-therefore, —————————-and if certain buttoms are pushed that you think has to do with changing what you believe to be true——–not knowing if that is what they are or not saying, but knowing that it’s not reflecting what you think you are hearing, you then become unneccessarily alarm.

    Please hear me on this: what you think I said is so far from what you have assumed that you have heard, and what I did say you could not hear because of assuming what I meant.

    You didn’t even hear me when I had posted how kind, encouraging , and helpful you had bee towards on other posts.

  261. Moderator, please delete #259.

    #260 is the edited copy of this.

  262. @Grateful

    I have seen various responses from you on this article and a few other articles on this site. Your choice to list the full name of the person you wanted to gossip about, yet not providing your own full name is not only perplexing but practically invalidates your flagrant comments. In addition, you are trying to carry on a tale that ended over a year ago. Really?! If any of your statements have an ounce of accuracy, the target of your gossip has moved on with his life. Let me encourage you to do the same – move forward with your own life, seek to edify others, and forgive those who have offended you.

    Jesus is the only true spokesperson for God the Father and Christianity.

  263. CZ

    I just read the same thing you posted at another topic to Grateful. In turn Alex also responded to you. Did you not see it or are you just wanting to say the same thing wherever Grateful may have posted? If so, please let us your agenda might be.

    If you have more information on this situation that you call gossip then please clarify. Otherwise, it comes across as bullying Grateful rather than to counter what they have shared concerning this issue that you think ought to be set aside because the offending party (is what I’m guessing) “has moved on in their life.” They may have moved on but obviously they have not dealt with what they left behind, have they. My question is why are you speaking for them?

    You stated, “If any of your statements have an ounce of accuracy, the target of your gossip has moved on with his life.”

    I agree with Alex. This statement is not logical. So if it’s not accurate, then say why rather than to go at Grateful in this manner. If is accurate, then it’s not gossip. What is gossip is the way you are handling this, because what you just shared has nothing whatsoever to do with truth. Saying that a person has moved on and that this “tale” ended a year ago, doesn not establish anything except to perhaps hurt Grateful, rather than to recognize that the issue is still opened and needs to be reconciled. Refusing to talk about it or to sweep it under the rug or to act as though it does not exist not a biblical thing to do.

    Surely, you can bring yourself to having a far better way of addressing Grateful in this matter. Scripture tells us that when we know that a person has an aught with us, we are to leave our sacrifices at the altar and go to them to work things out. Something tells me that this person may have move on, but had no right to do so but you have decided to defend him in the offense committed against Grateful. I could be wrong here, as I am not privy to what you are speaking about. But at the same time, your comment sounds all to familiar when wanting to silence someone who has been injured as a result of something should not have happened.

    Anyway, by your statement, you really don’t know if it is true or not, as first you say it is a tale, but then propose that some of the statment may be accurate. So, in my mind, you really don’t know, do you?

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