Is Roger Oakland right about Calvary Chapel? Yes, no, maybe, don’t care?

 

Roger Oakland has been an outspoken critic, as has Deborah Dombrowski of Lighthouse Trails Research and many others regarding End Times Apostasy and Ecumenicism of Calvary Chapel.

I agree with Oakland and Deborah that Calvary Chapel has sin in the Camp that should be dealt with. I agree with them that Children should be a priority and everything that can be done, should be done to help protect kids and that child abuse and child sexual abuse is terribly destructive, demonic and should not be counted or tolerated among professing believers.

I agree with Oakland that God is dealing with CC for some things.

Regarding “Apostasy” and Ecumenicism? Dunno.

Ephesians511blog does research for Roger Oakland and has commented much on here. He has made some interesting observations, no doubt. Not saying I agree with the Conclusions, but hard to deny some interesting observations he’s noted.

I don’t mind comments on the other pages, but if possible, try to discuss that on this thread. However, I can’t really be strict on this due to how I’ve participated at Phoenixpreacher.net.

 Posted by at 12:09 pm

  101 Responses to “Is Roger Oakland right about Calvary Chapel? Yes, no, maybe, don’t care?”

  1. New thread up.

  2. Personally, I like Roger Oakland and believe he is on the same page as many of us who have been burned by the abusive CC system. Roger was on staff at CCCM for many years and was one of the first insiders to finally speak out and confront the corruption, mainly privately to different members of Smith family, and then they started spreading rumors that he was mentally unstable…

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”

  3. “Once”:

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”

    A good tagline for the outake version of the CC Chronicles. I would consider adding just a few more words:

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win. It’s as SIMPLE as that.”

  4. I don’t know Roger, but have spoken to him once when I called his ministry. He personally answered the phone and I had a brief but nice conversation. He is a real defender of the faith.

    I want to give his website, so you can have an idea of where his heart is.
    I have many of his DVD’s which I had ordered at Lighthouse Trails.
    I wanted to understand the Emergent church better.

    http://www.understandthetimes.org/ec/exposingec.shtml

  5. PS… This seemed like it was yesterday, and is related to Calvary Chapel so I wanted to post it…..Roger is not the only one to be treated badly by the “powers that be”

    http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/roger-oakland-removed-from-calvary-chapel-radio/

  6. From where I stand, this is a group of fundamentalists critiquing another group of fundamentalists for not being hardcore enough. If CC were to heed the critique of Roger Oakland and Lighthouse Trails, they would only become less healthy. Oakland and LTR are off their rockers theologically. Further, they have little to no subtlety in their thinking. They would probably critique Paul for being in the same place as the Athenian philosophers. They assign guilt by association–that’s their M.O. I liked this website because it was a movement to challenge the unhealthy praxis of CC. What you don’t realize is that by calling CC to an even worse form of theology, their praxis can only deteriorate further. CC pastors need to all go study at a fairly conservative evangelical seminary and learn how to preach, how to counsel, and how to set up healthy leadership structures. They don’t need to heed the apocalyptic warnings of Oakland and LTR!

  7. So, you don’t find anything useful about Oaklands ministry?
    You don’t feel that any of the leaders they are calling out may be misguided shepherds?

    I agree that they may appear extreme, and I don’t really follow much of what LHT is up to these days (I don’t have the time),but I applaud them exposing what Robb Bell is up to by trying to redefine Christianity. His Noona videos were playing in a lot of the CC’s, many CC Pastors were enthralled with him and he is into universalism.
    Having said that, it is really all I want to comment on, and have moved away from “apostasy” issues in favor of my own personal walk with the Lord in the last several years or so. Thats really what it is all about. There are just too many arguments on this subject. Been there-done that. :)

  8. CC pastors are definitely misguided shepherds, but I don’t think Roger Oakland is qualified to tell them where to go. He’s just as much a paranoid rapture wonk as the rest of them. These people know how to get people fired up about the “end times” and make people scared of “the world”, but they know little to nothing of how to preach the gospel in a way that causes deep repentance, change, and hope. They make people more psychologically unhealthy than they were before they were Christians. I’ve been around Oakland types: they aren’t bad souls, but they sure don’t know how to teach a person to follow Jesus into the world. All they know is how to instruct someone on removing themselves from the world–in a way that Jesus has not called us to. People need a Christianity that they can live out now. Any time I meet ex- or current-CC people I strongly encourage them to start listening to Tim Keller’s messages. Here you’ll hear solid, biblical preaching that is in line with classical Protestant orthodoxy–not the wacky, fanatacism that comes from Oakland and CC people alike.

  9. Here are a bunch of free Keller resources for any recovering fundamentalists out there:

    http://sermons2.redeemer.com/

    Don’t be scared, there are other Christians out there too!

  10. Gandy White has made some good observations, although I believe there are many more healthy minded Calvary Chapels pastors than he would like us to believe.

  11. Re: CC guru @10

    I would like nothing more than to know this is really true, but apart from being told by CC people that there are some healthy CC’s out there, I’ve not heard any proof.

    Proof would be:

    * The pastor has real accountability that doesn’t require his agreeing to submit to it while he’s in sin.
    * Elders would actually be able to hold pastor accountable, without his being able to fire them first.
    * Elders would not be chosen by the pastor, so he can “stack the deck” and/or choose “yes” men.
    * Same goes for the financial board.
    * The financial books are open for people to look at and ask questions without any retribution or removal … oh, and they actually get real answers.
    * Moses Model leadership would be removed.
    * Actual pastoring of the flock, i.e. visit the sick, help the orphans & widows, model servant leadership.
    * Not overworking leadership (6 1/2 days per week @ 50 to 80 hours)
    * Pastor doesn’t underpay leaders with the excuse, “Where God guides, he provides.”
    * Pastor doesn’t overpay himself, comparing to a CEO’s pay. (Pay includes: ALL the perks, wife’s pay, vacations, meals, gas, cars, housing, clothing allowance, gym memberships, etc….)
    * Pastors & leaders understand that Matthew 18 applies to them, too.
    * Pastor understands that he is not more anointed than the attenders, not more special, and doesn’t have God’s ear more than the rest of the Christians.
    * Pastor is not a narcissist.
    * The leaders surrounding the Pastor are not “yes” men.
    * The church would have membership, ensuring accountability for the pastor and use of money.

    Show me a CC church that has any of these and I’m interested to know more.

  12. Oh … and …

    * Pastors/elders/leaders actually biblically qualify to be in the position.
    * Pastors/elders/leaders are actually removed when they no longer qualify.

  13. Grady, what if I said YOU were off your rocker?!? BTW I hear that Roger is reconsidering the pre-ttrb lie like many of us ex cc’rs who were brainwashed with that view by chuck since day one…

  14. Last time I checked, simply throwing out pejorative terms is not a refutation of anything. :)

  15. Once a CC guru…always a CC guru?

  16. Like the saying goes right Grady? Once a Reformed, Calvinist, Presbyterian, always a…?

  17. Gandy,

    Re:Tim Heller
    I don’t believe that God has fulfilled all his promises to Israel. (Isaiah)
    I don’t adhere to Replacement Theology. Just one issue, but a major.

    Just my personal position based on my own personal study on the subject.
    Having said that, I have listened to “White Horse Inn” for years, and have many of Sproul’s teachings.

    Just as you have criticized, many reformed are very critical as is evident here.
    I am better off staying out of these kinds of conversations. :)

  18. Amenr Hannah,

    “I say then, has God cast away His people (The Jews)? Certainly not”! (Ro 11:1)

    For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” (Ro 11:25-27)

    — Paul the Apostle AKA Rabbi Shaul of Tarshish

  19. Yes and Isaiah 54 in the Old Covenant.

  20. Hannah, all the promises of God–to Israel (and thus, by extension, to the world) are yes and amen in Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:20). If one wants to partake of the promises of God, one has to take part in Jesus Christ. The whole New Testament–Paul, the gospels, everything–is about all of history being fulfilled in Jesus Christ. God used to speak to the fathers by the prophets, but his word has reached its apex and finality in the Son (Heb 1:1-2). As you look at the NT, what emerges is the fact that God does not define covenant membership by circumcision or ethnicity, but by faith in Christ. Does God have a plan for ethnic Israel? Yes, his plan is that a remnant would be saved–through faith in Christ. And yes, of course, in the kingdom the promises to this nation (which, again are promises to bless the whole world) will be fulfilled. The problem with classical dispensationalism is it fails to connect the covenant promises of God to Israel as ancillary to the covenant promise to Jesus Christ. These promises of land, freedom, and the tribute of nations are met and wildly exceeded in the messiah.

    I don’t believe the church, as some group of people or institution is Israel, but I believe that Jesus is Israel! Those who partake of Jesus are in the covenant and receive the blessings of the covenant. There is no old covenant that proceeds side by side with the new covenant. The whole point of God’s new covenant in Jesus is to provide a better covenant–the one mediated by the Spirit and faith in Jesus.

    Anyways, even if you believe in a CC brand of classical dispensationalism, that’s ok, I guess. But to make brash statements that treat others like Keller or Horton as somehow “off their rocker” or “plain wrong” is rather ludicrous. You’re failing to note that the position you hold is the most novel eschatology schema on offer–prior to the mid-1800’s no one believed in anything like this. If you’re going to believe it, that’s fine, but at least have the perspective to acknowledge that there are other perfectly orthodox understandings of the matter.

    Cheers!

  21. I am a Pre wrath Rapture guy myself. What concerns me about CC’s is not just the unbalanced leadership via the Moses Model but the bunson burner effect that is taking place there right now. I slowly but surely see the Emerging church influence creeping into certain Calvary’s. For example, Homosexuality is now called “Same Sex Attraction”. The word “Sodomite” is used anymore. With the passage of SB-48, things are going to even get worse as one CC Pastor alreay got in hot water with the IRS re his preaching against Homosexuality and was told that it could be considered hate speech which could eventually lead him to losing his tax status-501 3 C. I see the welcoming of Jerry Boykin into their conferences and wonder why there is not more discernment taking place. I believe many of these CC Pastors may have good intentions but I also believe that mnay of them are wolves in sheeps clothing and we can’t be afraid to name names as they are using God as a mean of Gain. Raul Ries, Greg Laurie, Pancho Juarez and Chuck Smith to name a few. The are fast becoming very seeker sensitive in the way they preach and you rarely hear on repentance anymore.

  22. As far as the 501 3 C tax status, I don’t recall in the new testament where the church was to be in bed with the government. See what CC Chino Hills is going thru having preached against Homosexuality and now they is being pressured by the Government to stop their hate speech or they can lose their tax exempt status. The question is how many Pastors will have the guts to stand up to the governement when push comes to shove? Remember if they refuse to comply it will cost them lots of money due to taxes they will have to pay. If they fold under IRS pressure then they will have become Cowardly. This is why I believe that the true church is not in an institution or an Organization but it is Ethiopian in nature.

  23. Solomon,
    In the old days – when CC West Covina was CC West Covina, Raul used to name names – Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, and other guys. I rarely, if ever hear anyone call names out now.
    CC Chino Hills – that would be Jack Hibbs, right? Wow, he is getting threatened by the government? I would think the California government would have come after him first. I wonder what he will do? I know not many people like Chuck Missler, but he is of the opinion that sooner or later, the Church will go underground.
    Maybe the best thing for the Church as a whole is to lose the 501 3C? That would be interesting, I think. Doesn’t the Church normally grow when under persecution (that could be a Calvary Chapel-ism I picked up).

  24. “See what CC Chino Hills is going thru having preached against Homosexuality and now they is being pressured by the Government to stop their hate speech or they can lose their tax exempt status.”

    Is this coming from an outside source or from Jack Hibb’s, himself? If it is coming from Jack Hibb’s my guess would be it is a bit exaggerated.

  25. Hey, if you’re a 501c3, you have voluntarily signed on to agreeing to the rules that govern that entity via IRS code and Federal/State Law, etc.

    If you want the money (tax breaks)…you got to render unto Caesar.

    If you don’t like it, revoke your status.

  26. Alex,

    That’s why I believe that church fellowships are better off with out the 501 3c status.

    Ron,

    I totally agree, the church should go underground as there is persecution coming and the chruch has no reason to be in bed with the government.

  27. No He is not correct. I have been around CC for over 40 years and have seen the inside and out. Mr Oakland was very rude to me last year at the Apologetics conference , but I just chalked it up to MR Oakland having a bad day. But seeing and reading the false non substantiated non-definitive evidence allegations, it is my opinion he has leveled at Calvary Chapel are way off base. It is a very sad thing to see that division seems to be spread

  28. I have been reading all the “abuse blogs” for hours tonight. I am pretty shocked. I listen to these Pastors on KWVE every day & go to a big bible study at CCCM My Aunt used to work for Ron Melhe in Beaverton (not a CC) as his secretary years ago & told me that you wouldn’t even want to know what goes on beyond the Sanctuary. I was abused as a child in several ways as Alex. I forgave for my well being & my perp was not a Pastor. Alex, I hear you loud & clear buddy But now that the cat is out of the bag, don’t make it your life’s work You are too talented Use your talent to help other abused children Thats how the Lord used me……Blessings

  29. Is Roger right about EVERYTHING?
    I doubt it…nobody is right about everything.
    But I think he is right about most things.
    I think he has the big picture.
    And I think he may be a prophet……
    at least prophetic.
    Being a prophet sucks you know…..
    at least in this life.

    Jesus was a prophet, among other things;
    and the pharisees did to him what they did to the others.
    And many of the sheep helped throw stones at the others.

    But there is a judgement day, and it is a very good day for the prophet
    for on that day EVERYONE will know who was right and who was wrong.
    NOBODY will stand before God and LIE.
    They might plead their good works,
    but he will say “I NEVER KNEW YOU.”

  30. Jack…only time will tell.

    I have no problem with studying prophetic writings in scripture. It’s the Word of God. But IMO, some spend a disproportionate amount of time in speculative scripture, trying to discern the times, when the majority of scripture is fairly clear about what our duty and daily mission is in the here and now. Let’s face it, we (the Western Church), in the past 30 years have been very negligent in understanding and carrying out the global mission given to Abraham, and traced through scripture to the vision given John in the Revelation. While we have seen atrophy in the daily life of the church, the Global Church, especially in Asia, Africa, and Latin America has been a raging fire. What do you account for this obvious disparity in vigor and growth? I think they have their eye on the One who will untimately conquer, and live each day with a faith that touches all elements of daily life. There are not too many speculative bible studies in the hills of China when the authorities can crash the party any minute. They study to know what will animate their lives today, and especially what will give them confidence that Jesus reigns.

  31. I think it is a travesty that in our Western individualism, we duplicate each others ministry by building massive structures for ‘mission’ that spends in excess of 85% of the general budget on the local attendees. The overhead has often become a hinderance to ministry in the biblical sense, and a spiritual weight around the waist due to soft idolatry. We do not cooperate very much. We protect turf. Which is a sure sign that we have lost focus and vision. We could be much better at using available resources, consolidating efforts, and maximizing finances and labor to reach and penetrate all cultures in our lifetime. But that does not seem to be our goal. We seem more concerned to read the latest Tim LaHaye Left Behind series. We want coffee during our worship services. We want Conference after Conference, and Retreat after Retreat. We want to politicize our faith behind some political party or candidate. We pick a Cause to wave a banner for. Or we just want to watch a ‘live video feed’ of a church service from the comforts of our home. Do any of us really know the sacrafice and obedience Jesus requires of a follower of his? If we allow our pastors to get so fat on these things, we will be lead down a thousand rabbit trails only to be disappointed in the end. The End Times may be far less appealing if we find that Jesus rebukes us for missing our true calling as a Church. The prophetic word we need today is a wake up call, and a restatement of the marching orders God has been trying to fuse into his people for more than 4000 years. Let’s not stay asleep forever!

  32. You guys sound like a bunch of women quit your belly aching and busybodyin and go be the diffrence in the world!! Bunch of cry babies! I was beaten and abused Ie ben screwed by my church but Im not gonna spend my life on it. You cant beat Calvary this website is as far as you will get. Seriously BILIONS of dollars will have no problem shutting you up! Amen?

  33. You guys sound like a bunch of women quit your belly aching and busybodyin and go be the diffrence in the world!! Bunch of cry babies! I was beaten and abused Ie ben screwed by my church but Im not gonna spend my life on it. You cant beat Calvary this website is as far as you will get. Seriously BILIONS of dollars will have no problem shutting you up! Amen? doubt it but move on..

  34. BofB: LOL.

    I especially like the Chuck Smith email address you used when you posted. Hilarious.

  35. I was a “Calvary Chapel-ite” from the mid ’70’s to just a couple years ago. My wife attended CCCM from the “tent days”. We were married there. We both recognized the need to separate completely from them last year. I’ve been following Roger Oakland’s ministry for a couple years now, and it seems obvious to me he’s on the right side of the issues vis-a-vis CCCM and “things” going on there. It had to be heart-wrenching to go through the rejection and abuse he went through after trying so hard to warn Smith and others about what is going on. I don’t doubt the “conspiracy aspects” of the ecumenical-ism infiltrating CCCM one bit. The conspiracy to “recover the lost brethren” is centuries old, and as an ex-Catholic, I can smell it when it gets to a certain point. CCCM is vulnerable to such infiltration because Smith has never recognized the true, heretical, apostate nature of RC-ism. It took me a long time after leaving RC-ism to sort that out myself. I might not have done so if not for hearing a message given by Dave Hunt about RC-ism, delivered at–CCCM of all places. Dave was filling in for Smith on the Sunday night study, and pulled no punches. How’s that for irony? CCCM seems also to be succumbing to the “purpose driven”, “Emergence Christianity” that is plaguing the Church at large.

    Anyway, Smith’s lack of discernment is, I think, a result of generally mushy thinking. He tries to be analytical, but his sloppiness with words gets him into trouble. (Another thread on this blog wherein Smith has been castigated for his mis-statements about the nature of the resurrected body is a case in point.) The earliest example of his lack of … uh, “precision” with words and phrases that I can recall is when he used the term “at-one-ment” to explain the meaning of the Greek word properly translated “reconciliation” (in the NASB) in Romans 5:11. He was, of course, trying to illustrate the real meaning of the word translated “atonement’ in the KJV. The term “at-one-ment” was coined by Mary Baker Eddy, one of the founders of the “Christian Science” cult. New Agers use it, also.

    Smith seemed to have the right idea in mind, but his method was completely off the wall. It really jarred me when I heard him say it. I guess I just got used to mentally “correcting” him as time went on. I kinda think most people who listen to him for very long do that unconsciously. Probably why many have trouble seeing when he’s wrong about any given scripture. His use of words has not improved with age.

    As for Dave Hunt’s current view of CCCM, I can’t help but think a rebuke from Dave is coming any time now. I don’t think he has been seen at CCCM lately.

    Having found out the CCCM history with Lonnie Frisbee and KK (which we were not aware of until recently), we’ve severed all connections with CCCM. Otoh, many of the things I saw there that did not make sense at the time make perfect sense now. Still, it saddens us greatly, having gone there for many years.

    But, God’s Word is still the Truth. The direct study of that Word has sustained and strengthened our faith in Christ. Meanwhile, we pray for the people at CCCM. May God give them discernment and a love of the Truth.

  36. Too complex a question to answer with a yes, no or maybe.

    Oakland is right that Smith had Lt Gen Boykin speak at CCCM and Smith has spoken at events where Boykin is also another speaker. They are both part of the nut-case Bible Prophecy tours and as such they support each other’s agendas.

    Oakland is right that Boykin and Rick Joyner are members of the Knights of Malta. Oakland makes some claims for the Knights of Malta that are conspiratorial and don’t appear to be supported by actual facts. So in the central charge that Boykin and Smith are tools of the Pope, that’s simply nut-case stuff.

    To me, why focus on this stuff when Smith’s false doctrines should be enough to discredit him? If you gotta go the other route, why not pull up past false prophecy conference predictions? That should be enough.

  37. Still doing my own research on Oakland and Smith. Here’s a summary of the story from Lighthouse Trails (an ODM – Online Discernment Ministry).

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=5258

    It’s certainly written from one side of the story, but lacking Smith’s side in a public forum, it’s a good start at collecting the data.

    I am interested in the amount of traction that Oakland is getting. Not hard to imagine why considering Smith has fed the anti-Catholic conspiracy thinking over the years. But, I have to wonder at the ethics of using bad ideas to make points. Certainly there are a group of people that these bad ideas appeal to, but shouldn’t we stand for the truth as we best understand it regardless of the results?

  38. Doug,
    That link lists some termination with CC years ago.
    Forgot to paste it but it was several years ago..so why the announcement now?
    And what exactly did Oakland have to do with Calvary Chapels anyway?

    Can’t believe it is 5 yrs ago that Smiths book was pulled because of the comments his son made in it. Supposedly he edited it or something. I remember Smith alluded that he knew nothing about those comments and some of us were surprised.

    I remember the whole Purpose Driven life issue and the books being taken out of the bookstores. Thats why it was also surprising that Smith was once again connected to Warren (the photos).

    Its as if Smith is on both sides of the fence on so many of the issues that Oakland speaks out against.

  39. From the Lighthouse Link:

    May 19, 2009: Calvary Chapel Termination Has Profound Implications

    What is that about?

  40. About “May 19, 2009: Calvary Chapel Termination Has Profound Implications”

    Is that when Chuck’s brother was fired from CCOF?

    People were surprised because they assumed that when they bought a book which lists “Chuck Smith” as the author it turned out Smith didn’t write it. This ghostwriting is a major scandal in the church – or it should be.

  41. Yeah..a lot of Pastors have others write their books for them. You would think they would list the co-author…like the secular world does.
    . At least give them some credit…or at least be truthful.

  42. Doug Gilliland said:
    December 24, 2011 at 4:46 pm
    “Oakland is right that Boykin and Rick Joyner are members of the Knights of Malta. Oakland makes some claims for the Knights of Malta that are conspiratorial and don’t appear to be supported by actual facts”

    Apparently, you may not have all the facts, Doug, but to avoid derailing the thread I’ll leave the KofM issues alone.

    “So in the central charge that Boykin and Smith are tools of the Pope, that’s simply nut-case stuff.”

    I never said that Chuck Smith was a “tool of the Pope”, but that, due to his own blindness to RC-ism’s heresies, CCCM is vulnerable to and apparently is being TARGETED by agents of ecumenism. That’s not surprising given the # of CC followers involved. As for Boykin, he certainly is doing his part for the ecumenical movement, whether or not he is aware of being a “tool of the Pope”. Nothing nut-case about it.

    “To me, why focus on this stuff when Smith’s false doctrines should be enough to discredit him?”

    True enough, but my (perhaps poorly stated) point was that Smith’s muddy doctrinal stance is, imo, caused by a long standing lack of discernment in general, but not by evil intent. That lack of discernment has led to the acceptance (or tolerance) of many other bad doctrines from outside influences.

    “If you gotta go the other route, why not pull up past false prophecy conference predictions? That should be enough.”

    Alas (always wanted to use that word in a post), Smith’s sometimes muddled and sloppy presentation has tainted his own teaching re: prophecy. Still, I credit him with stirring my own interest in end-times prophecy, not to mention in Scripture as a whole. Given that it’s important to hang onto the baby when throwing out the bathwater, I have found other sources who expound and defend pre-trib dispensationalism far better than Smith, and without flirting with the date-setting trap. (Thank You, Lord.)

    It is SO sad, and even scary, to see what is happening to Calvary Chapel. Even scarier is that the same thing is happening to much of the “Evangelical”, “Protestant” church worldwide. “A time of departing”, indeed.

  43. Well a year ago today was a pivotal day in my Calvary Chapel stint. Roger Oakland did the New Years Eve thing at Tri-City. All the lies that were spoke to me and changing story afterwards by leadership raised my awareness to their actions. It was a pivotal day.

    I have no empirical evidence but I would not be one bit of a surprise if quite a few of the old timers in Calvary took a knee during this.

    “Superior:
    My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among the Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence to seek even to preach from their pulpits and TO DENOUNCE WITH ALL THE VEHEMENCE IN YOUR NATURE OUR HOLY RELIGION AND THE POPE; and to descend so low as to become a Jew among the Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.”

    The twisting and constant covering for the Jerry Boykin evidence sure makes one suspicious of the Calvary Chapel leadership.

    http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/organization.php
    Appears Roger Oakland was correct about their good friend Gen. Jerry Boykin all along.
    As if the photos of Jerry were not enough evidence. But that’s right we don’t know what we are looking at now do we. As if the Maltese cross connection to Rome and Babylon were not enough in the first place.

    Some pastors remind of the old saying. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck. I have no doubt there are ducks in Calvary Chapel.

  44. Chuck(not Smith) – My issue wasn’t with what you said and wrote in particular. I took some time to look at the evidence presented by Oakland and find it weak. Particularly making certain guilty by association style of arguments.

    Saw a good one called the “Hitler ate sugar” fallacy the other day.

  45. Well, the anti- Roman Catholic thinking goes back to the middle ages. Paul Johnson in his history of Christianity mentions several gnostic groups in Catholic Europe that hated the church for corruption and wanted to create the kingdom of God and of course the Roman Catholic were not getting along with the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriential Orthodox either which consider each other heretics. So, anti- Roman Catholic thinking goes back prior to the Reformation. In some evangelical circles it is very heavy and in some Catholic circles like Opus Dei if your not apart of the Catholic Church you go to hell.

  46. Doug,
    I might remind you that the Pharisees had the best doctrine of the day (excluding the Essenes) yet they led the way in crucifying Jesus.
    Quibbling over some points of doctrine is minor in comparison to the abuses that some CCs have perpetrated upon the sheep.
    The quibbling over points of doctrine is what turned off the 60s generation’s for church…. which is part of what gave us the cultural revolution.

    Moving toward Roman Catholicism is huge.
    There could be no greater abuse than legitimizing the Roman Catholic heresies.
    The RCC is second only to the Atheists in committing GENOCIDE…. FOR TWO THOUSAND YEARS!
    And the Atheists have only been around 100 years… they still might chill on the genocide after a few hundred years.
    Rwanda was instigated by RCC priests and nuns… the genocides never stop.

    Jesuit oaths bind them to doing ANYTHING that furthers Roman Catholicism.

    In 1990 Malachai Martin, a Jesuit, said the RCC’s plan was to become the umbrella for all the world’s religions… the clearinghouse.
    This is being QUICKLY implemented at this very moment.
    Jerry Boykin and company is BIG!

  47. Personality, I would not blame the Catholics as the only ones that put people to death. Both Protestants and sometimes Orthodox are unaware that Byzantine emperors put people to death for hersey as well. The emperor Justinian put Manchieans to death and some other small groups as mention above in Procopius’s secret history such as the Montantists that killed themselves before Justinian could. The 8th to 9th century saw Byzantine emperors put to death and jail those that venerate icons during the iconoclastic period. And the Paulicans a gnostic group in the Byzantine empire which sided a lot with Islam were put to death some say in the thousands. Protestants also were more likely to put people to death for witchcratt in the early modern era and also put to death anabapists and some catholics as well. Also, while the Catholic Church did the crusades and sack Constantinople, the Orthodox in Constantinople killed thousands of Italian merchants in the year 1182 this is online at Wikipedia known as the massacre of the Latins. The crusades killed a lot less people than the conquest of Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar conquest of Gaul where Caesar himself stated that he killed maybe a million people prior to modern weapons in 10 years which is a very high figure in ancient times.

  48. Doug… Cynthia…

    If I may, what is it that is keeping you from giving the slightest credence to the realities of the Knights of Malta and the Jesuit Order? Where is the flimsiness in either of these subjects?

    It would help if we would limit the discussion here to just those groups who carried out their campaigns of torture and murder IN THE NAME OF CHRIST; then we’d have properly constructed parameters for the discussion. Because surely you realize that no other persecutions and killings carried out in the name of Christ can even remotely compare to the long-standing record of the Roman Catholic Church in all its power and glory. The atrocities that have been carried out in response to papal dictates are unmatched by lesser counterparts in both horror and magnitude.

    And I do not seek to minimize or gloss over the guilt of others groups who have carried out killings in the name of Christ, for ALL were WRONG, RC’s and Protestants alike. Their campaigns were carried out in the name of a false christ. Not a single one could be said to be the work of any true follower of Christ. So we’re talking a case of semantics here; things done in the NAME of Christ, but not in the Spirit of Christ, and drawing down the judgment of Christ upon their heads in the doing. To compare lesser examples of abuses carried out in the name of Christ to the sheer volume of abuses carried out by the RCC seems remarkably disingenuous. An honest investigation into the history of the Knights of Malta and the Jesuits before summing up your thoughts would be a fair expectation, wouldn’t you say?

    I dunno, it seems to my observations that these subjects do not get their fair share of honest investigation and discussion before someone comes along and dismisses them with the wave of a hand, and without proper consideration for the facts available. I’m picking up a willful blindness here, in the presence of these subjects. And I find it just a little odd, in a context like this of truth-seekers, that this is the sort of response that it draws when this subject matter gets brought up.

    The inclusion of Gen. Jerry Boykin on the CC speaker’s lineup and his partnership with CC while a member in high standing with the Knights of Malta seems to draw a strangely disinterested response, a sort of corporate yawn here, which I find disheartening. It wouldn’t hurt would it? to employ some honest investigation into the matter, considering the implications.

  49. CYNTHIA,
    There have been a LOT of groups that have genocided over the centuries… Including Protestants.
    Apparently Martin Luther stood by approvingly while folks chopped holes in the river ice and tossed in Anabaptists.
    Of course Luther never left Catholicism.
    The RCC has CONSISTENTLY genocided in every century for nearly 2000 years.

    In the modern era you’ll not find a lot of Protestant clergy led genocides but you’ll repeatedly find RCC clergy LED genocides.
    Research Ustase Priest Officers who systematically killed 700,000 Serbs (1/3)…. so brutally that the NAZIs “stepped on them” to take it down a notch.
    The Ustase Priest Officers would tie Serbs in pairs, line them up in front of trenches and shoot every other one.
    The less fortunate one was not shot and would fall into the pit with the shot one to lie among the dead and dying ’till they were buried alive.
    25,000 Serb children would have been better off going to the NAZI death camps…. the NAZIs gassed the children before throwing them in ovens… the Ustase Priest Officers tossed them in alive.
    Just be careful if you have a weak stomach because there are many graphic pictures of these atrocities.

    Less than 2 years ago many Nuns and Priests in Rwanda were convicted of instigating the Rwanda genocide.

    CC is being led into unification with Catholicism by Chuck Smith and his hoard of compliant pastors….. so I suppose sytematic coverup of rape of children would be expected.
    Still, I’ll not accept it.
    And I WILL NOT kiss the ring of the Pope or bow to the Pope or his image.
    Very easily could cost me my head… but I will not.

  50. Doug Gilliland said, “My issue wasn’t with what you said and wrote in particular.”

    Gotcha, no biggie.

    “I took some time to look at the evidence presented by Oakland and find it weak. Particularly making certain guilty by association style of arguments.”

    ‘Guilt by endorsement’ would be a more accurate label for the situation, I think, especially regarding Greg L.

    “Saw a good one called the “Hitler ate sugar” fallacy the other day.”

    Haven’t heard that one. Is it related to the “junk-food defense”?

    Granted, there is a lot of noise on some channels, but Oakland’s disciplined academic background would indicate his research and reasoning cannot be brushed off as “nut-case stuff”. He’s no wild-eyed hater, ‘tho some at CCCM have tried to label him as such. Oakland has come across the “Calvary-RCC connection” issue only recently afaik, so his material on that specific issue is not as extensive as his dealing with–say–the “Emerging church”. Not yet, anyway.

  51. Gandy White @ 8,
    I am hesitant about Tim Keller but I probably haven’t given him a chance. Only because my previous pastor Bob Guaglione of CCdelco recommended him. Bob Guaglione was also a big Dallas Willard, Richard Foster and John Ortberg fan which have all been pretty well documented for their neo-gnosticism. It appears that some also put Tim Keller into that category. http://apprising.org/2011/09/15/tim-keller-and-contemplative-spirituality/. I really didn’t think much about this emergent church, spiritual formation and comtemplative spirituality much until I experienced first hand the abuse of Bob Guaglione of CCDelco. I wasn’t sure if this abuse was somehow tied to this new mysticism. Now I am much more careful about what/who I listen to. I don’t agree with Roger Oakland on prophesy and other issues but he might well be right on with the neo-gnosticism and contemplative spirituality heresy.

  52. Yeh, alot about Tim Keller and contemplative prayer, which contemplative prayer is not even taught in Scripture. Contemplative prayer is just a gateway to emptying your mind and transcendentalism (TM). Amazing to see how may yoga centers are in churches today. You are definitely using your decernment skills Andrew.

  53. I was on staff for a number of years at CCCM, so I wanted to reply to all the people talking about how rude R. Oakland is. Is he rude? Yes, in fact he’s arrogant and kind on an A-hole. I’ve seen young guys come to work in ministry and were shocked at the favoritism and double standards that go on there. As well as the masks that a lot of people in ministry wear. David Hocking, Pancho Juarez, Dale Goddatd just to name a few, were some of the offenders me and several others witnessed. Dale especially walks around with a gloom about him, his face looks evil, he never smiles. He’s rude for a drug addict straight out of prison, let alone a pastor. While I never saw Marital infidelity, I saw hints, and married men flirt and even be obsessed over young married men, I was ten years younger then I am now and maybe too naive, or I may have realised more.

  54. What I have come to learn about Roger Oakland is he is right, dead right and I think that he has an idea what is at the bottom of this worm-whole….

  55. I used to think Roger was a “faithful watchman”. Please refer to the following blog site (it was mentioned in the above article)…there have been MANY unpleasant developments.

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/

    the author is no longer affiliated with Roger and has broken all relationship with him over Roger’s being yoked with “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” Roger is aware of the info, I have written him personally, myself. Roger “exposes” error…but not ALL. It will be worth your time to read all the articles posted there. The documentation is impeccable. In light of all this…why is Roger Oakland SILENT? One would think he would be all over these developments!

    BTW..where were these disclosures by Lighthouse Trails, or any of the other “discernment ministries”? How about Brannon Howse and Chris Pinto who are constantly “revealing” the infiltration of the Jesuits into Christianity – where was the important news report? They knew about this info, and are SILENT! Why were they not all over this???? WHY indeed!

  56. DJ said:

    “I was on staff for a number of years at CCCM, so I wanted to reply to all the people talking about how rude R. Oakland is. Is he rude? Yes, in fact he’s arrogant and kind on an A-hole. I’ve seen young guys come to work in ministry and were shocked at the favoritism and double standards that go on there. As well as the masks that a lot of people in ministry wear. David Hocking, Pancho Juarez, Dale Goddatd just to name a few, were some of the offenders me and several others witnessed. Dale especially walks around with a gloom about him, his face looks evil, he never smiles. He’s rude for a drug addict straight out of prison, let alone a pastor. While I never saw Marital infidelity, I saw hints, and married men flirt and even be obsessed over young married men, I was ten years younger then I am now and maybe too naive, or I may have realised more.”

    You are right on about Pancho Juarez! He is my former Pastor and boy from what little I saw and experienced he was two different people. I once had an honest critique of one of his message via email and I was very respectful and the guy big leagued me and was very arrogant and prideful regarding his length of ministry. I also saw him being rude to one of his staff members but I guess everyone has those moments. It was the email that revealed a lot to me. He also has built for himself a nice man kingdom in Montebello and appears to live soft and luxuriosly at the sheep’s expense with his so called mission trips to Switzerland, Japan, Israel and all over after he promised the congregation from the pulpit that he wasn’t going to travel anymore. His asst. Pasto Abel Maldonado is also false brethren. This guy gave me Mad Dog looks for two years all because I was the last car in the parking lot one Weds. evening. I apologized to him and was very respectful but for the next two years he gave mee looks that could kill and would avoid me when he saw me. Finally one day I had enouhg and got in the flesh and shot him a death stare. he finally left me alone after that. The guy has a history of being in prison and allegedley has connections to the EME (Mexican Mafia) and he still shows that gangster side rather than having fruit bearing repentance. He ppears to be a Goat while Pancho is a wolf.

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  58. Roger Oakland has always been very helpful in my walk with God. God gives me help, guidance and comfort through Roger.
    I am burdened greatly just now. I was a member of The Salvation Army in Australia until I reached the time when I knew I could Not be a Christian and serve my Lord and be a Salvationist too.
    There is a LOT of corruption in The SA, abuse, financial corruption, information conceled etc, etc. I was abused mentally, emotionally, psychologically and spiritually and lied to by my Officer in Charge and he tried to brainwash me, because I refused to take part in something I knew was wrong and against God’s will.
    There is so much corruption etc that I am aware of. I have a lot of information and proof which I could reveal. Should I expose this or leave it to God. I am concerned that I should do it because God uses His people to bring about judgement and healing.
    What do others think??

  59. I started a new website that just addresses Calvary Chapel, it’s called Calvary Chapel Watchman –

    http://calvarychapelwatchman.blogspot.com/

  60. Going into deeper waters here this time around. I perused Roger’s website and read through some things concerning Ecumenicism of Calvary Chapel.

    He is 100% on target when he speaks of the precipice that CC is standing upon. I attened the Harvest Celebration when Chuck Smith stood on stage with Rick Warren. I nearly vomited (literally). I could not believe that this was happening. Any lay person can do the research and find out that this was sending a message to “babes” in Christ, as well as, the world that Calvary Chapel had lost its grip on its doctrinal truths. Rick Warren is out in left field and is terribly humanistic and ecumenical in his approach and his teachings.

    Right now as I write this, I think about what Isaiah stated about going back to Egypt rather than to keep our eyes upon the Lord and not to allow ourselves to be compromise or to negotiate with the enemy. It’s like giving your daughter to philistine. When I witnessed this with my own eyes, I really felt as though the body of Christ was being sold out and that we were now being led into whoredom with one who preaches a different gospel entirely. So when Roger speaks, it may sound abrupt or too harsh, but think of it this way——-what do you think Paul did when he told the churches to get the false teachers out of the church. What did he say to the churches in following another doctrine? Did he invite them up to share what he had to say to the people, calling them bretheren in the faith/” Certainly not.

    We are to call sin for what it is and we are to call false doctines for what they are and we are to called false teaches and wolves for who they are——not shake hands with them and acts as though, like Rick Warren that “we can all get along and that there is truth in all religion, it’s just a matter of respecting each other.

    I’m going to stop here —– just couldn’t let this one go—–when speaking of the One World Church Movement that Rick Warren is promoting and Chuck Smith by token of permitting him to share the stage in the middle of an event that primary purpose is to call the unrepentant or unsaved to the Cross of Salvation.

  61. Linda,

    I remember that after public backlash to PDL (Purpose Driven Life), CC Distribution (from what I understand they distribute books to CC bookstores-theres a database which the bookstores order from) supposedly from orders from C. Smith, stopped distributing PDL to CC bookstores.( I am pretty sure I remember from the pulpit mention that CC is not in agreement with Warren’s views in PDL) Then a couple of yrs later CS appears with RW at events.
    So what exactly is CS’s position of RW and his “mission”?
    I have a friend who attended Saddleback and she says that CC is now in it’s shadow, compared to 10 years ago.
    When did CS change his position?

  62. If Jesus syas you will know them by their fruits (actions/results) then one could conclude that by their actions they support Rick W. In a conversation with Roger Wing he said that Chuck S. was duped by Greg Laurie. He did not know Rick was going to be at the event and was put on the spot. Chuck, as he always does, took the high road and the more gracious approach, made the decision to stay to introduce Rick. The questions to ask are, When does truth take a back seat to grace? Greg invited Rick knowing Chuck’s position and then puts Chuck on the spot?? When did Greg change his position on Rick?? Why was Greg one of two leaders (Bob Coy being the other and known for going emergent.) asked to be invovled in a Q and A at the pastors conference??

  63. “So what exactly is CS’s position of RW and his “mission”? I have a friend who attended Saddleback and she says that CC is now in it’s shadow, compared to 10 years ago. When did CS change his position?”

    CS’s position is the same as it’s always been in every questionable enterprise. He’ll, in a veiled way, speak against it, but then turn around the next day and use it for his own advantage. He very quietly speaks against TBN, but then appears on TBN. He carries PDL in the CC bookstore, but then pulls it, but then appears with RW and compliments RW on the radio.

    Jekyll and Hyde.

    As for the Saddleback situation overshadowing CC, yes, having lived in OC for many years, it is the case. Saddleback opened tons of satellite campuses all around OC, and attendance at many CC’s is down. Greg Laurie decided that if you can’t beat ‘em, then join ‘em, which is why Laurie is 100% on board with RW.

  64. unfortunately, most church’s have become (and are run) like a a multi-level marketing scam, only they use jesus name…

  65. Bill,

    From a distance it would appear that CC was a precursor to SB. One allowed sin to dwell in the camp, then began to overlook it. A read through the threads on this sight provide that. In walks Rick and takes it to the next level. Does anyone find it odd that Rick praises Calvary for its teaching of the scriptures and recognizes it as its success but does not utilize what he has high praise for? Sounds like song and dance. Chuck calls Rick’s method a social gospel, not realizing that was speech that defines the emergent church. There is a CC pastor who was assigned the corporate role of teaching about the emergent church to all CCs. I saw him at Green Valley CC in Henderson, NV. His message is duplicated from the one he gave on his site to include the use of the term social gospel. Then Chuck calls Rick’s work a social gospel and the pastor drops the phrase from his presentation. It all seems to orchastrated for me.

  66. Since it appears we are all in agreement here, I think it is important to understand that Chuck Smith and Greg Laurie did not protect the flock nor did they even consider the message they were giving to new converts that evening.

    I have listen to Greg Laurie on several occasions. Quite frankly, I’ve never consider him to be Scripturally educated. What I mean by this is that he gives a good message of the cross, but beyond that he does not extend or expound upon teaching the Bible. All the services I’ve attended is heavily laced with one youth group band after another and most of the music is extremely loud, screeching, and words that make it difficult to understand or to join in worship. Although there are older participants, his primary audience appear to be very young. Like a Pied Piper, he uses music to mesmerize them.

    I also watch the video with Greg Laurie, Bob Coy, and I think Brian Broderson. When Chuck was sitting down and the others were on stage, Chuck made a statment. It was Greg who made several overture to offer Chuck the mike. Although, it was a respectful gesture, it was more than this. To me, it sicken me to see grown men fall all over themselves to pay a homage to Chuck as if he was God. Greg was the chief among all of them, and everyone just sort of followed his example. Monkey see, monkey do.

    So although pretty words were shared, I did not hear one concrete word on what, how, and when any changes were going to be implemented. Just a good ole boy, meeting.

    So back at the ranch. RW is an apostate, a false teacher, and a wolf in sheep clothing, and whoever was responsible for permitting him to be at the Harvest Crusade or Celebration has offended the Cross is in gross error to say the least.

  67. Hannah,

    You asked when they changed their position. The Harvest event that this took place I believe was either 2009 or 2010.

    One other note: If you search really hard on Saddleback’s website, you will find a statement of faith that lines up with Souther Baptist Convention. It is a balance statement of faith, but in reality it is not practiced or taught. The last Bible study I listened to online had nothing to do with the Bible, but rather focus soley on developing parenting skills within what would be straight out of the books that are humanistic. Oh, there was one scripture. Children are a gift from the Lord.

    As for me, I will never attend a Harvest again. Up to that point, when possible I have brought either back slidden Christians or someone who was not saved with me. So for now, when the Lord provides an opportunity, which He does constantly, I will preach the gospel to them and lead them into asking Christ, Jesus into their hearts. At times, I will call up a Pastor or a church to help them get connected or refer them to a radio station that has good sound teaching and warn them about those who don’t.

  68. Linda,

    I remember once visiting a Baptist church. The church was going to begin a “40 days of Purpose” program. Since I already had purchased Berean calls CD’s and “critique” of PDL, and learned about it for myself, I thought I’d share the info with some of the moms I knew, and also one in leadership at the church. I was shunned and never spoken to again. It brings back memories when I think about how I was treated afterwards.

    I think many of the churches use the SB statement of faith, but they are using another name for the church that excludes the “baptist” title. They want to get away form the denominations. I think CC may be responsible for this as they have always used the fact that they are not a denomination to draw people in who are rebelling against their “fundamental upbringing”.
    Rob Bell comes to mind with this notion of “redefining” the Bible.

    Raymond D- Is that Pastor you are speaking of from Philadelphia CC? I think Joe Fochs? If so, I have that CD and I will dig it up. I am curious about that “social gospel” term. I think that was around 2006 or so?

  69. Joe Focht did give a presentation at the East Cost Pastors conference in 2006 on the emergent church (ECPC0604). You can download from their website. Well worth a listen.
    The term “social gospel” is becoming less in vogue now. I think the term in vogue now is “social justice”. Similar thing just without the gospel.

  70. I went to a conference at Ron Wilkins’ CC Pacific Coast on the Emergent Church after the Harvest episode. In the ? and answers at the end, someone asked about Rick Warren at the Harvest. Ron Wilkins said they didn’t know Rick Warren was going to be there. None of the speakers had bothered to bring this up and it wasn’t mentioned until the end by an attendee.

    Paul Smith told me that Chris Fromm (Chuck Smith’s nephew) was on both the boards of Greg Laurie’s and Rick Warren’s churches. At the time, Paul Smith was writing an expose after being fired from Calvary Chapel, but then Calvary Chapel produced his book. Lately I have seen a video entitled “Riptide” which shows Skip H. at the beginning and end talking about a new Jesus movement, then a shot of Lonnie Frisbee, then most of the Calvary clan including Chuck Smith Jr. and Sr., Rick Warren, etc. Paul Smith had told me that Greg Laurie and Rick Warren have been friends for over 20 years.

    I am of the thinking that Calvary wants to start another Jesus movement which will have the mysticism of the early days. I have concluded that Lonnie Frisbee was possessed. The movement will be mostly composed of naive young people. Tri-City Calvary Chapel youth retreat in the mid-west may play a part in this movement. John Higgens apparently ran the House of Miracles with Lonnie Frisbee and I’ve heard mention that he introduced Lonnie to Chuck Smith. I’ve haven’t seen anything to prove the latter yet other than Chuck Jr. saying on a video that John (last name not given) introduced Lonnie to Chuck Sr.

    I don’t know what it is about Orange County. We’ve got Benny Hinn, TBN, Rick Warren, and now Calvary is going down like the Titanic. I don’t know where to send people to church. I attend a very small church 30 minutes away. It’s not perfect, but I feel relatively safe.

    I hope Chuck repents before he dies.

  71. I agree the Titanic is going down and the band continues to play. Many aboard the CC Titanic have their eyes on their pastors instead of Jesus Christ. Therefore they do not see the stern has taken to much water and now the bow of the boat continues to rise in the air. The call to abandon ship and get in a life raft goes unnoticed due to the lullaby being played by the band.

    Fix your eyes directly on the LORD Jesus Christ and his word. Flee to him for safety. Get in the life raft and row far far away so that you are not taken down in her destruction.

  72. Social Gospel or Social “Christianity” origins comes from liberal theology, progressivism, and some new age theology. It is seep in eastern and humnistic philosophy. Easy to look up under the two lables mentioned. Here’s one site to get you started: http://www.answers.com/topic/social-gospel.

    This is very important to know in order to under why RW is not Christian and why he pursues the ecumenical one world church ideology.

    It is really difficult to find a balance church but don’t give up. Find other Christian and gather together with them to study the Word, pray, and to encourage one another. In many ways, are we not a church gather together on this site, Alex has created.

  73. my apologies for all the typos and mispelled words.

  74. Here’s an after thought: what verse was it that Jesus told us that He would rather have us to be either hot or cold, rather lukewarm.

    Chuck Smith, as well as so many others have to choose which god they are going to serve. I know Chuch wants to make everyone believ that they are non-denominational and middle of the road between what is called Liberal vs. Conservative, but when you take no stand —- what are you really doing. Avoiding criticism, perhaps, but also leaving the door open for false doctrine and practices the leaven the body.

  75. but also leaving the door open for false doctrine and practices the leaven the body.

    should read: but also leaving the door open for false doctrine and practices to enter in that leavens and destroys the body of Christ.

  76. Linda,
    I think this is what you are referring to.
    I included more verses to get the concept.
    Hey Linda, maybe we can do “church” here ! Good idea!

    Revelation 3 (NASB)

    ——————————————————————————–
    16‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

  77. Hannah,

    I went to his presentation about a year ago. I wish I could remember his name, senior moment. I do remember him saying he has five children and he was about 40ish. I can’t remember his site name either. However, if I asked around I could probably acquire it. The “social gospel” statement was made by Chuck on his daily program with Don Stewart. He made the comment the Monday after the Harvest Crusade when a caller asked if it was appropriate for someone to share the pulpit with someone thought to be heretical. Chuck just laughed it off. Pretty much the way he seems to laugh off every serious issue.

  78. For Gandy White.I have listened to Roger Oakland on the Emerging Church and also followed LHT research articles and have to say I find them encouraging. Thye put into words what I, and probably many others, are thinking or questioning. It is so refreshing from those so eager to follow after any new wave. I do question when some latest celebrity christian is quoted and then being recommended to follow their teachings, yet another trend setter. There is oly one trend setter and that is Jesus. We should spend more time reading and meditating on God’s word in the bible than following after men. It is high time more were brave enough to speak out and expose the deception in our churches. The world and its ways are awash in many of our churches. Remeber Jesus said ‘ My kingdom is not of this world.’

  79. FG@52 wrote, “Amazing to see how may yoga centers are in churches today”.

    I didn’t expect to see a yoga class in a CC. But I recently did at Bob Guaglione’s church at CCDelco.

  80. Stick with Steve McVey and Bob Hostetler and those who preach the Gospel and really know something about grace. Calvary Chapel will never be healed by embracing denial, but merely siding with those who denounce the CC movement, who are just as guilty of defaming the Body of Christ as CC pastors have been, also will not work any repentance or healing within the CC churches. I like the principles laid down by Steve McVey and Bob Hostetler about getting to the heart of the matter: Grace, relationship with Jesus, and making sure Jesus gains full preeminence and supremacy in His Body, the Church on earth. I know of incidents that could bolster the Lighthouse arguments, but I am not going to give Lighthouse fuel for the fire.

  81. Bob @ 80.

    I only thing that I understood you to say is that ” those who denounce the CC movement, who are just as guilty of defaming the Body of Christ as CC pastors have been, also will not work any repentance or healing within the CC churches. . . ”

    Then referred us to an article concerning McVeigh, that Andrew just shared with us is not recommended. Andrew has been a regular and what he shares is pretty Rock solid most of the time.

    Now I am going review that site as well, but before I do are you saying that you support the CC Movement. Because when you say that we of defaming the Body Christ, I immediately said to myself, “we are the body of Christ” and we have attempted to bring things to the CC leadership to no avail. What more we are now bringing to church to warn and to make known these offenses. This is what scripture has mandated us to do and to do less is offending Christ and all the saints that have gone before who has been persecuted from those who do not abide in Christ and behave themselves according to scripture by repenting of the wrongs done, but cover up their sins and then play the victim.

    The defamation brought upon the body of Christ is a direct result of the leadership failing to acknowledge that the Moses model is unscriptural and thus does not enable the body of Christ to be one with the leadership. The leadership claims to be the head of the church with special knowledge, authority, and understanding of God’s Word while literally cutting off the rest of the body except for the sole purpose of serving the head.

    As the body Christ, we are all members, all possessing the Holy Spirit (men, women, and children) and there is only who we can call Lord, God, Savior, and King. It is because this is not recognize nor can it be recognized by that which is seated upon the Mose’s Model that these corruptions, abuses, violations, and blatant disrespect continue to be perpetrated. If anything the working of the Holy Spirit is severely quenced due to denying the body of Christ full membership and participation if the affairs of the church, including that which pertains to leave, church discipline, and the subjugation and oppression of female and children. It is extremely narcissistic and devoid of that which exemplies the New Testament church that included even the least of these. The Moses Model has one voice and I guarantee you it is not the voice of the Lord, or we who are also in Christ, having the Holy Spirit would not be so opposed to what has and does go on behind the staged screen.

    Speaking the truth is not defamatory. But denying it and then attempting to silence those who do so is not just a defamation upon the church it is also an abomination before the Lord. So, in your attempt to be neutral by saying we in the body of Christ are just as guility as CC leadership, in my opinion this only serves to distract and be one more smokescreen to confuse the issues here.

  82. I am going to post this again as there are typos that need to be corrected and that I feel is important to include within the statments being proposed.

    Bob @ 80.

    I only thing that I understood you to say is that ” those who denounce the CC movement, who are just as guilty of defaming the Body of Christ as CC pastors have been, also will not work any repentance or healing within the CC churches. . . ”

    Then referred us to an article concerning McVeigh, that Andrew just shared with us is not recommended. Andrew has been a regular and what he shares is pretty Rock solid most of the time.

    Now I am going review that site as well, but before I do are you saying that you support the CC Movement? Because when you say that “we of defaming the Body Christ,” I immediately said to myself, “we are the body of Christ” and we have attempted to bring things to the CC leadership to no avail. What more we are now bringing these things to church to warn and to make known these offenses. This is what scripture has mandated us to do and to do less is offending Christ and all the saints that have gone before, whom has been persecuted by those who do not abide in Christ, as well as, by those who have been deceived believing in scripture that has been manipulative ever so slight that justify the type of leadership that stems from this model. Many are deceived, just as we have been and just we were defend it using the same tactics they learned from the philosophy of the Mose’s Model and CC distinctives. By the way, the distinctives are not doctrinal in nature. It is a philosophy created by Chuch Smith. Being so, repentance begins at its core, according to scripture by repenting of the wrongs done, not by defending it to the death or by using Narcissistically oriented games that serves to cover up their sins and then play the victim.

    The defamation brought upon the body of Christ is a direct result of the leadership failing to acknowledge that the Moses model is unscriptural and thus does not enable the body of Christ to be one with the leadership. It does not enable the body to grow mature. Yet, some do become mature nevertheless, but not because it is encouraged by the leadership. For if it was, then when such corruption and violations are perpetrated by any, then enabled or ignored by the leadership, that offense would be acknowledge and church discipline would be applied with necessary changes being made to enable the reconciliaton processes.

    The leadership claims to be the head of the church with special knowledge, authority, and understanding of God’s Word while literally cutting off the rest of the body except for the sole purpose of serving the head.

    As the body Christ, we are all members, all possessing the Holy Spirit (men, women, and children) and there is only ONE who we can call Lord, God, Savior, and King. It is because this is not recognizef, nor can it be recognized, by that which is seated upon the Mose’s Model that these corruptions, abuses, violations, and blatant disrespect continue to be perpetrated. If anything the working of the Holy Spirit is severely quenched due to denying the body of Christ, full membership and participation if the affairs of the church, including that which pertains to leaven, church discipline, and the subjugation and oppression of female and children.

    It is extremely narcissistic and devoid of that which exemplies the New Testament church that included even the least of these. The Moses Model has one voice and I guarantee you it is not the voice of the Lord, and over and over again make clear they are not accountable to the body of Christ. Which is a lie from hell. N.T. tells us we are to be accountable one to another and that we are to hold those to an account for bringing in or committing any type of offense. If this was not so, we who are also in Christ, having the Holy Spirit would not be so opposed to what has and does go on behind the stage, so to speak.

    Speaking the truth is not defamatory. But denying it and then attempting to silence those who do so is not just a defamation upon the church it is also an abomination before the Lord. So, in your attempt to be neutral by saying we in the body of Christ are just as guilty as CC leadership, in my opinion this only serves to distract and is just one more smokescreen to confuse those that needs to know the truth and to keep others in denial of coming to grips with the reality of the truth.

  83. Grace does not exclude the law any more than the law exclude Christ. For instance, scripture tells us we are to loving and full of grace one towards another. It also tell us that when a person who calls himself a brother is practicing adultery and other types of ungoldy behavior, but fails to repent, we are not even to eat with such a one.

    Grace without the law is anarchy and Law without grace is tyranny.

    Just as God is a loving God, full of grace, He is a just God who cannot dwell with darkness, rebellion, and disobedience.

    Just as Jesus came to save the whole world, He will also come again to judge the quick and the dead.

    The first recorded words that Jesus spoke: REPENT and Believe. Later we are told to submit one to another, speaking the truth, hold one another to an account, judge those things having to do with the church body and purge out the leaven. Confess our sins, one to another, Do not lie, curse, abuse, violate, exploit, or mislead. Submit one to another.

    It’s all well and good that a person confesses their sins to the Lord but the Bible also tells us that if we have harmed another we are also to do what is needed to restore that person to wholeness—–not to confess our sins then continue in them and then turn right around and then accuse the person we have wronged as harming character instead. For indeed one may have confess (spoken), but they certainly did not repent. And that is what God requires of us to do. Not lip services with grand display of being above it all. All in the name of cheapening or mocking God’s grace. Men pleasers, but not with a godly sorrow that would bare the fruits of repentance and enable reconciliation to come about.

  84. The HAPS disease defines Calvary Chapel leadership: haughty, arrogant, proud, and smug. They see themselves as so above everyone and so justified in bashing others. They never see their own character defects. I have not seen ecumenism in the Calvary Chapels I’ve been connected with, but I have seen the demonic spirit of control and the spirit of celebrity, the spiritual hierarchy, the pecking order, and the congregational scrambling for top positions in the social ladder. I have never experienced a sense of “family of God” or “Body of Christ” or “love one another” or “bear one another’s burdens.” These experiences are null and void in the CC churches I’ve encountered, except perhaps for one. Generally, no one could care less about anyone else, and everyone wants to be important and close to leadership. Their entire world view seems to be a grand counterfeit of Christianity rather than anything resembling the New Testament church. I pray sincerely that somehow it is not too late for God to change this and to transform the Calvary Chapel churches into true Christianity. That continues to be my hope.

  85. “From where I stand, this is a group of fundamentalists critiquing another group of fundamentalists for not being hardcore enough. If CC were to heed the critique of Roger Oakland and Lighthouse Trails, they would only become less healthy. Oakland and LTR are off their rockers theologically. Further, they have little to no subtlety in their thinking. They would probably critique Paul for being in the same place as the Athenian philosophers. They assign guilt by association–that’s their M.O. I liked this website because it was a movement to challenge the unhealthy praxis of CC. What you don’t realize is that by calling CC to an even worse form of theology, their praxis can only deteriorate further. CC pastors need to all go study at a fairly conservative evangelical seminary and learn how to preach, how to counsel, and how to set up healthy leadership structures. They don’t need to heed the apocalyptic warnings of Oakland and LTR!”

    I agree 100%. Couldn’t have said it better.

    Why is it the CC folks are so fond of conspiracy theories?

  86. Doug,

    You are missing a vital point:

    LTR has supported Alex and has taken a stance against the kind of abuse being reported here. However not one of 1500 or so “CC indpendent” churches have really even mentioned a peep about this abuse that I am aware of. Not one!

    So putting these conspiracy theories aside for the moment, if you just consider just this fact alone, I think its obvious that LTR is quite a bit healtheir than the amalgamation of CC churches as a whole.

  87. Andrew,

    I whole heartedly agree with you regarding Roger Oakland and Lighthouse. I was very griefed when CC shut their door and turned the Light off on these Roger and the LTR. But now that I am aware and wide awake concerning the Moses Model I can understand why this was just too much for CC to take in. Darkness cannot dwell with Light.

  88. Debra Drombrowski (LTR) is a woman who dedicates herself to the kind of causes this blog is about. She has a personal testimony not many are aware of. She is available to speak with with if anyone wants to contact her. I have known her for many years and have spoken with her and corresponded with her. She has posted here once or twice.

    She is a gracious, kind person, dispite what some may think of her and her minsitry (Lighthouse Trails).

    She is on our side when it comes to the issues presented here on this blog.

  89. Hannah, I agree about Debra Dombrowski. She is passionate about Child Abuse and speaks truth to that issue. She reached out to me and sent me some info and expressed a real concern and real heart of a good mother and Christian about that issue.

    I have no beef with LTR, and I respect them for the stand they consistently take against Abuse and Corruption in the church.

    Personally, I’m not sold on the Emergent or Jesuit concerns etc, but that doesn’t mean they and others don’t have the right to follow their convictions in those areas and we can agree to disagree on those issues.

    I completely affirm their work on Abuse and Corruption in the church, which IMO is very black and white.

  90. I agree with the sentiment of overall health of a Group in regards to how they treat children and how they conduct their finances etc.

    In Groups that abuse children, tolerate abuse, don’t make abuse a priority and actually foster abuse by inaction, bad teaching and toleration of known abusers…I would say that is very bad fruit and telling of an underlying spiritual condition. Same goes for Corruption in the same Group.

    In Groups where you see Godly loving care of children and integrity in the rest of the Group’s practices and biz, then I think you see good fruit that is telling of a good underlying spiritual condition.

  91. “What can you do to promote world peace? Go home and love your family.”
    ― Mother Teresa

  92. The first part of my life from my 20’s to my 40’s was as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. When I left them because of spritual abuse (I was disfellowshiped). I started going to Calvary Chapel after a Harvest Crusade, then went on to Biola and Master’s Collage. I have been with Calvary for about 16 yrs now. People think I am crazy when I tell them CC is alot like JW’s. They both have a brand and are very dogmatic. When I was a Jw you could not discuss anything outside of the “Organization”. CC is no different. They are both looking for “Truth” so is everyone else. I think it is human nature to become “white washed graves”. Since the beginning of the Church it has not changed. We can point fingers and rightly so but in the end are we seeking God’s Will for us personally?. I know alot of great people at CC, we are friends. When others find out about about what I believe we disagree. As a JW they just kick you out. Jesus said the Word of God is food. We just need to go where we are being feed and expose the garbage when we see it. But some of us like the garbage to. I try to be healthy and discussion like this helps us to know how powerless we really are.

  93. Wow, Michael, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of CC compared to JW’s. Very interesting! I can see what you are saying.

    “…discussion like this helps us to know how powerless we really are.”

    So true.

  94. Alex, respectfully, what are you talking about and what is your point?

    What fruit are you talking about? What groups are you talking about-churches? What abuse and tolerance thereof are you talking about (specifically)? What is godly loving care and integrity in your mind. What is good fruit in your mind…something that is from the bible directly or the worlds interpretation. Finally, what does all that nonsensical diatribe have to do with the ecumenical movement? I

    Michael

    Been going to Calvary Chapel for 20 years. I’ve been in leadership positions, I’ve frequented several Calvarys over the years and never have I seen or heard of your non sense…cant talk outside of CC, branding ect..this is categorically and unequivocally hogwash. Are there clicks in CCs, yes, are CCs imperfect, yes, but are not all churches imperfect with imperfect sinners who comprise the makeup of the church itself? The issue on this board as I understand it is heresy that seems to have crept into CCs. Emergent church crap, oh sorry, beliefs. Isn’t this board about whether CCs still teach sound doctrine? I believe there is a dangerous element of ecumenical heresy that is now prevalent in some or all of CCS, which in short I believe requires rebuking and repentance. That said – what your endeavoring to infer, is not only inaccurate, but just plain silly.

    If you are going to say something like a CC told you to never say anything outside of CC, name names, who said what? Ridiculous and stupid.

    Grateful

    What exactly do you get or see from Michael’s asininity?

  95. Re: 24
    I am surprised there hasn’t been any scrutiny regarding Jack Hibbs of CC Chino Hills.
    All I see are exaggerations and outright false information coming from him without any substantiation on Hibbs’ part. He will give references with regard to his subject matter, but you follow those references and there is nothing there, or the references are some hearsay or some falsified documents.

  96. 1–Smith is a Jew
    2–Smith is a CIA asset/agent
    3–The CC’s are a CIA front–Jesus People was well known CIA operation

  97. Mark
    What do you mean “Smith is a Jew??????
    Jesus was a jew, I trust you are not putting the Smiths up there with Jesus.
    Similarly I am also a jew and I hope you are not putting the Smiths put there with the people of Israel????
    Or was it a derogatory comment????

  98. Since so much abuse, spirtual, physical, and emotional, takes place within the movement, I feel people ought to withdraw from it. There is no accountabiloity or opportunity for amelioration because of the leadership style. It would take the leadership to change the leadership style and I don’t think that will happen. People need to protect themselves and the best way to do that is to simply leave. Plenty of other churches exist.

  99. @Bob (post #85): I couldn’t have written it any differently or better. After being in/out of various CC’s for almost 3 decades, and involved in various ministries, I’ve always said, “I have concern with what will become of CC when Pastor Chuck dies.” Now that has happened, who will position for head of CC… a man or Christ Jesus? I do not condemn Calvary Chapel system of church fellowship altogether, but what is weak or left out is that the pastors follow a systematic teaching of God’s Word – book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, word by word… but do they live it? For the most part CC pastors (working behind the Moses authority of leadership) aren’t true pastors but are teachers only. There’s little to no grace in most CC’s. There’s alot of dictatorial heirarchy and cult-like demands pushed down stream by senior pastors. They are stern hiding behind a smile. They teach the Word but do not put it into practice.. (e.g., church governance: Biblical authority lies not with the pastor but with a plurality of bishop/elder, and deacon). There should be a plurality of those authoritative postions so that a pastor cannot create an environment of evil. Women cannot be an “elder” because that in itself would be un-Biblical because the scripture is clear that women cannot have authority over a man. CC pastors appoint people to the title of elder but they serve in the role of a deacon. Perhaps the pastors do get caught up in growing a church so they can have greater salaries and benefits, but what happened to the saying “less of me and more of Jesus”? Where’s the grace? What love is this? Where’s the pastor’s heart in caring for his blind sheep? It seems more and more that CC’s have continued to be a church in transition, and by this I mean that as soon as a believer spends a number of years under tutelage, grow in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom in God’s Word, be gifted with spiritual discernment (and other spiritual giftings), they simply move on to a more mature Bible based non-denominational church fellowship… perhaps even a underground unregistered (non-501(c)3) church.

  100. If you are interested in some new ideas on ecumenism and the Trinity, please check out my website at http://www.religiouspluralism.ca, and give me your thoughts on improving content and presentation.

    My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology.

    In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universe Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.

    The Trinity Absolute is portrayed in the logic of world religions, as follows:

    1. Muslims and Jews may be said to worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the existential Deity Absolute Creator, known as Allah or Yhwh, Abba or Father (as Jesus called him), Brahma, and other names; represented by Gabriel (Executive Archangel), Muhammad and Moses (mighty messenger prophets), and others.

    2. Christians and Krishnan Hindus may be said to worship the first person through a second person, i.e. the experiential Universe or “Universal” Absolute Supreme Being (Allsoul or Supersoul), called Son/Christ or Vishnu/Krishna; represented by Michael (Supreme Archangel), Jesus (teacher and savior of souls), and others. The Allsoul is that gestalt of personal human consciousness, which we expect will be the “body of Christ” (Mahdi, Messiah, Kalki or Maitreya) in the second coming – personified in history by Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Buddha (9th incarnation of Vishnu), and others.

    3. Shaivite Hindus, Buddhists, and Confucian-Taoists seem to venerate the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person or appearance, ie. the Destiny Consummator of ultimate reality – unqualified Nirvana consciousness – associative Tao of All That Is – the absonite* Unconditioned Absolute Spirit “Synthesis of Source and Synthesis,”** who/which is logically expected to be Allah/Abba/Brahma glorified in and by union with the Supreme Being – represented in religions by Gabriel, Michael, and other Archangels, Mahadevas, Spiritpersons, etc., who may be included within the mysterious Holy Ghost.

    Other strains of religion seem to be psychological variations on the third person, or possibly combinations and permutations of the members of the Trinity – all just different personality perspectives on the Same God. Taken together, the world’s major religions give us at least two insights into the first person of this thrice-personal One God, two perceptions of the second person, and at least three glimpses of the third.

    * The ever-mysterious Holy Ghost or Unconditioned Spirit is neither absolutely infinite, nor absolutely finite, but absonite; meaning neither existential nor experiential, but their ultimate consummation; neither fully ideal nor totally real, but a middle path and grand synthesis of the superconscious and the conscious, in consciousness of the unconscious.

    ** This conception is so strong because somewhat as the Absonite Spirit is a synthesis of the spirit of the Absolute and the spirit of the Supreme, so it would seem that the evolving Supreme Being may himself also be a synthesis or “gestalt” of humanity with itself, in an Almighty Universe Allperson or Supersoul. Thus ultimately, the Absonite is their Unconditioned Absolute Coordinate Identity – the Spirit Synthesis of Source and Synthesis – the metaphysical Destiny Consummator of All That Is.

    After the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions, perhaps the most subtle expression and comprehensive symbol of the 3rd person of the Trinity is the Tao; involving the harmonization of “yin and yang” (great opposing ideas indentified in positive and negative, or otherwise contrasting terms). In the Taoist icon of yin and yang, the s-shaped line separating the black and white spaces may be interpreted as the Unconditioned “Middle Path” between condition and conditioned opposites, while the circle that encompasses them both suggests their synthesis in the Spirit of the “Great Way” or Tao of All That Is.

    If the small black and white circles or “eyes” are taken to represent a nucleus of truth in both yin and yang, then the metaphysics of this symbolism fits nicely with the paradoxical mystery of the Christian Holy Ghost; who is neither the spirit of the one nor the spirit of the other, but the Glorified Spirit proceeding from both, taken altogether – as one entity – personally distinct from his co-equal, co-eternal and fully coordinate co-sponsors, who differentiate from him, as well as mingle and meld in him.

    For more details, please see: http://www.religiouspluralism.ca

    Samuel Stuart Maynes

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