Jun 112012
 

CC Pastors worshipping at CCSPC 2012. A positive shift is occurring in Calvary Chapel Land. Photo from Pastor Pat Sieler's twitter feed.

“This conference also featured seminars on financial accountability and protection for children and abuse reporting requirements…one long time senior pastor told me there was more focus on accountability in this conference than the ten previous ones put together.” –Michael Newnham, PhoenixPreacher.net

AWESOME! (sorry for the turrets outburst :smile: )

This blog isn’t here without Michael Newnham and PhoenixPreacher.net.

We’ve had our disagreements and he has consistently encouraged me to change my style etc. and drove home the message that we open more ears and get more done toward good changes or reinforcing good things in CC by being more diplomatic and gracious than by being Hulk (Hulk smash!).

In other words, Relationships and Loving Criticism, rather than Hammers and Wrecking Balls.

Michael’s done a good job of exampling the former in recent years, rather than the latter.

What’s the point? People in CC ARE listening. There is a noticeable shift in direction and Leaders in the Movement are stepping up and leading…and the result, IMO, is that a sort of Good Split and Separation is occurring. The Good Guys are following the lead of the Good Guys…while some others who don’t like the New Direction and new responsible and Godly tone, are fighting it tooth and nail.

Great. It draws a distinction between what is good in CC and what is bad in CC…and my hope (our hope) is that the Good in CC will continue…and grow…and that the bad (the cancer…and not meaning CS, just a metaphor) will be cut out and separated and not taint and tarnish the whole Movement.

Let’s encourage the “good” and call out the “bad”. There is much to get behind (in a positive way) in what I’m hearing reported out of Brodersen’s/Laurie’s CC direction.

Link to the article on PhoenixPreacher.net here: http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=12572

 Posted by at 9:26 am

  61 Responses to “Long-time CC critic reports “defining turning point” in Calvary Chapel Movement as result of CCSPC 2012”

  1. I am not part of CC in any way except in sharing my proclamation that Jesus is the King. I am a very low key layman in the Church. I am increasingly humbled by the steady love of God, and his unquenchable grace. All of us are where we are by the faithfulness of God.

    Corruption creeps in when the lights are dim. Those who control the amount of light, can control what is seen. There are benevolent light-bearers who stand in full view. And there are malevolent light-bearers who keep the lights low to conceal.

    Michael, Alex, and several others have reluctantly ‘hacked’ the light sources to turn up the intensity and expose the malevolent ones. I think this was a just cause, and the result is being played out. Let the Kingdom of God continue to spread throughout our dim-lit churches!

  2. Alex, Yes. There is good in CC. As time moves on I pray the bad things/individuals will move on also.

    “…..Relationships and Loving Criticism…”

    Bingo!! :)

  3. Like how you worded that Bryan!

  4. I hope the bad can be cut out like a surgery, but I have to say I am skeptical. I guess I’ve seen how much CC has it’s own very consistent culture everywhere I’ve been and I suspect it’s far too ingrained to truly remove the bad that has a facade of good covering it.

    I’ve seen former CC pastors leave and go to new groups, but some of the groups out there have taken their cues from CC’s “successful” model of running a lean machine, all power at the top, and lack of transparency in finances … and all the good ole boy network mentality that goes along with it. Then the new group doesn’t help the former CC pastor/asst. pastor/ or volunteer to unlearn the unhealthy attitudes and actions they picked up in CC and learn a new approach. Instead, they just bring much of their unhealthy CC stuff with them, just put new clothes on it and think all is new and better … when it’s NOT.

    Hope I’m wrong. But the only ones I’ve seen make a true change are those who jumped to Evangelical Presbyterian and went to seminary to unlearn and relearn.

  5. I hope this is one small step in the right direction. But after forty-five years of the Moses Model or so, it’s going to be very difficult to change things. The reason plurality of elders hasn’t happened is because they believe one man above all else has the “anointing” and therefore is the most spiritual, wisest, etc. Until that mindset changes, I foresee the same issues because they are all inter-related.

  6. I really do like that there was talk of protecting children more then the last 10 put together at this years senior pastor conference. It’s very unfortunate however, that the current circumstances in Calvary Chapel is what it has taken to get them there.

  7. I was told that the Protecting Children emphasis was mandatory, which is great.

    There was also a big push for Financial Accountability.

    Those are 2 very big things many have been advocating for.

  8. There’s an old saying “talk is cheap”. I can see how they’d be interested in promoting some of these things from the issues raised from recent legal actions.

    When they open the books, really open the books, then I’d say financial accountability is getting there. Not only that, but they would have to have accountability in finance which doesn’t just disclose, but discuss and decide beforehand. To do that would be to jetison the Moses model…

    When they have boards which are NOT made up of other pastors, then I’d say that they are starting to get the clue about accountability. It might be appropriate while planting a church to have an outside board, but that should not be the cast once a local body has become established. Was that discussed? It’s so patently unethical that no other denomination would allow it.

    When they exercise the power of church discipline and remove Bob G then I’d say they are starting to get a clue. Right now, I’d say it’s just words.

  9. Who spoke on protecting children? What is their credentials as an expert on the matter? I don’t think they have the in-house experts on these matters.

  10. Did anyone explain to them their legal status as mandatory reporters?

  11. To Grateful’s response, I am in agreement. I’ll give scriptural merit for my conclusions. First, the idea of old and new wine skins, etc, etc. Secondly a look at Acts 6 reveals that there were many priests who joined the early church. Move to Acts 15 and you will see that the similar priests of Jewish hierarchy fame were the ones putting up the stink about not having the gentiles follow the law. This characteristic of old wineskin leadership does not go away. The reformation expresses similar characteristics. God brings revival by changing the heart of man and stirring him to return to Him with a broken, sincere heart (2 Chron. 7:14). The outward expression of brokeness and humility should not be over looked. When David was confronted by Nathan (2 Sam. 12) he repented of his sin. A read through Psalm 32 & 51 shows to what degree his sin meant to him and the destruction that occurred in his relationship to God. Saul did not carry this attitude.

    There are two forms of repentance. One leads to the conclusion of needing to change because I have been caught. The other leads to a brokeness recognizing the hurt that my actions have caused to the Lord and those I have perpetrated those acts against. In Luke 19:1-10 Jesus recognized Zacchaeus’ repentance after he said he would return what he had taken from others falsely. Restitution and the act of asking for forgiveness is not just merit worthy, but requirements of scripture. It would be a willing act on the part of those truly deisirng to be right with his brethren and the Lord. If there is true repentance the act will begin at the leadership. When the woman was caught in adultery and Jesus asked “he who is without sin cast the first stone” they began to leave from the eldest to the youngest. Those with the greatest authority act the others will follow. Has that happened in the life of anyone you know? Have any of you received a phone call from some leader asking you for forgiveness for the way they treated you? Alex, have you received a phone call from Chuck S. telling you he was sorry for telling you to get a life? If the changes occurring are a result of true repentance as a result of CC seeing the light wouldn’t there be recognition that the small dog barking, and the refuse dump, and the embittered people, legalist, etc. etc. comments now be recognized as an error against those who with sincerety, merely wanted to see change for the Glory of God and the better treatment of His people? Unless that occurs I am left to conclude that this was just a dog and pony show.

    To those in CC leadership guilty of this behavior consider this; Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
    Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
    Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
    Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
    How can you, with sincerety, go before the Lord thinking everything is okay when the disastrous wake of shattered lives as a result of your behaviour and practices are published on sites like this?

    If we don’t think they know just consider what they are implementing as a result of this site.

  12. Alex
    here’s hoping the reforms to the structure, leadership and accountability of the CC movement as a whole work to the better service of the Body of Christ. several suggestions from the cheap seats.

    *Scrap the Moses Model completely
    *Limit power, authority and control of ANY one man or one group of men
    *Free the Whole Body to serve by removing the clergy/laity division
    *Rather than get bigger and planting ‘satalite churches’,
    – limit the size of churches to a number that facilitates ‘real’ relations among ALL the members of that particular Body
    – instead of satalites, plant autonomous, separate and free functioning churches
    *Install and Establish Christ alone as the head and ‘Senior Pastor’ of the churches with a plurality of elders to help and serve, not rule and control His people
    *Equip and Release congregations to follow His voice and serve Him Only.

    thx as always for the opportunity to share with you

    mike

  13. Pardon me for being skeptical. Until there is action, and not just words, the celebration is premature.

    Since leaving CC, I have been a part of other vibrant, big, fruitful churches. And they are using a model of church government that has more than one man calling the shots. And it’s refreshing. They wouldn’t typically get into the trouble that CC is in, to begin with.

  14. I hope this is a true move of God, and not just damage control.

  15. Skepticism warranted and understood.

    To consider: the workshops on Reporting Requirements and Protecting Kids was mandatory and the fact that there was so much emphasis on that issue and on Financial Accountability is more than words. They took action and asserted good leadership.

    I hope it continues.

  16. Re: Raymond @ 11

    Continuing with your thought:

    Saul basically got caught and then asked God to keep it quiet so others would not know, asking God to honor him publicly. Basic CC leadership move…

    David repented and it was public. He realized the sin was against God and man. He understood that God knew the right consequences to give him and that he’d accept them.

    Repentance was the key that made David a “man after God’s own heart.” Saul was not.

  17. When they open the books, really open the books, then I’d say financial accountability is getting there. Not only that, but they would have to have accountability in finance which doesn’t just disclose, but discuss and decide beforehand. To do that would be to jetison the Moses model…

    Doug Gilliland’s #8 bears repeating:

    “When they have boards which are NOT made up of other pastors, then I’d say that they are starting to get the clue about accountability. It might be appropriate while planting a church to have an outside board, but that should not be the cast once a local body has become established. Was that discussed? It’s so patently unethical that no other denomination would allow it.

    When they exercise the power of church discipline and remove Bob G then I’d say they are starting to get a clue. Right now, I’d say it’s just words.”

  18. I messed up … my first paragraph n #17 was a quote from Doug, too.

  19. @Alex-“there was so much emphasis on that issue and on Financial Accountability”

    Can you define “financial accountability” ?
    Would that force the SP to disclose salary, expense account, bonuses, paid vacations, etc to the congregation? Is there a biblical mandation for this?

  20. NT examples of financial accountability:
    1 – Judas “kept the purse” and was a thief. Right there among the disciples and with Jesus.
    2 – When there was a financial scandal in the church (distribution to the widows), the people selected 7 men of good reputation to oversee the finances and remove the complaint of favoritism.

    I think we could come up with others, but those come to mind.

  21. Stewardship and stumbling others also comes to mind. Even the heathens do audits for finacial accountability of donor fund and theirnuse.

  22. Well, Alex, I can understand you point, your stepfather committed both homosexuality and incest. Incest is considered the worst of sexual sins and I can understand why you want Calvary to be better in handling such things.

  23. The other issue that they should address is “Violence in the workplace”. One of the definition of that is intimidation, threats, etc. I’ll be posting the orginization that handles those complaints and what defines it. Had I known at the time I was employed by Bob Grenier he would have had a law suit on his hands. It’s also a big concern for me because I believe there are plenty of women who work for CC and other churches who are being bullied by the pastors and that needs to stop. If you are on the payroll you are an employee and therefore they should be held accountable for their inappropriate behavior.

  24. Tina, I completely agree. Bob Grenier’s intimidation in the workplace is not only wrong and sinful, it is probably not legal (from a civil law perspective).

    He is good at bullying women and children and he’s good at manipulating “men” who are easy targets to his way of doing things.

    Greg Dowds, Jeff Fly of Turning Point and Brent Calvin of C.O.S. have enabled Bob to get away with much wrongdoing as has Gary Ruff CC Sun Valley Foothills, Raul Ries and David Rosales.

  25. I can think of at least 4 other women under his employment that he has verbally abused and intimidated.

  26. Yes financial accountability and child sex abuse issues are certainly important, but so are other types of abuses which prevail in CC churches that adopt the made up Moses Model of unchecked power and authoritarianism. My feeling is the CCSP conference did not seek to deal with much of the pastor-specific abuses described on this blog.

  27. CF Lover @ 26. I wasn’t at the conference so its hard for me to say but I would tend to agree with you that until they take the “Moses Model” problems head on, this will continue to be an issue.

    Bob Guaglione from ccdelco.com has written this on his web page:

    http://www.ccdelco.com/pastors-corner-faqs/#14

    “Though the New Testament pattern is clearly a plurality of men running the church, there is biblical precedence for a significant leader among these men. Among Jesus’ twelve disciples, Peter, James, and John seemed to be the leaders, with Peter being a significant leader. As we look at the early church, the Apostle Paul would fall into the same category. At Calvary Chapel we see that role being fulfilled by the senior pastor, whose role is not to lord it over others, but rather to lead with all diligence (Romans 12:8).”

    I am not sure if Bob Guaglione speaks for all of Calvary Chapel but since he is comparing himself to Peter and the apostle Paul and inevitable with Moses I am just wondering who the significant leader will be when Chuck Smith passes if there even is one. If there is not one for the CC global fellowship as a whole what is the rational for there being one at a local level?

  28. Hannah said:

    “I hope this is a true move of God, and not just damage control.”

    I’ll go with Damage Control. Also the bigger Calvaries need to have Home group fellowships to get that sweet Koininea. But some of the big wig pastors don’t wnat that because they see it as a threat to their leadership. The reason why you won’t see Calvary limit the number of attanders to one fellowship is very simple: $$$$$$$$$

  29. Andrew said:

    “I am not sure if Bob Guaglione speaks for all of Calvary Chapel but since he is comparing himself to Peter and the apostle Paul and inevitable with Moses I am just wondering who the significant leader will be when Chuck Smith passes if there even is one. If there is not one for the CC global fellowship as a whole what is the rational for there being one at a local level?”

    Funny that these men compare themselves to Paul when convienent however they don’t follow his example by laboring with their own hands so that the Gospel can go out free of charge.

  30. Grateful said:

    “When they open the books, really open the books, then I’d say financial accountability is getting there. Not only that, but they would have to have accountability in finance which doesn’t just disclose, but discuss and decide beforehand. To do that would be to jetison the Moses model…

    Doug Gilliland’s #8 bears repeating:

    “When they have boards which are NOT made up of other pastors, then I’d say that they are starting to get the clue about accountability. It might be appropriate while planting a church to have an outside board, but that should not be the cast once a local body has become established. Was that discussed? It’s so patently unethical that no other denomination would allow it.

    When they exercise the power of church discipline and remove Bob G then I’d say they are starting to get a clue. Right now, I’d say it’s just words.”

    I only have my former Four Square to by example. They had a yearly meeting with the congregation and would pass out copies of their financial books to anyone who attended which was in place of a Wednesday night service. People were free to ask questions and they did ask hard ones. It was a completely transparent excercise one that you would never see at a CC Church. It’s really not that complicated, open the books for everyone to see.

  31. #28 Solomon,

    Having attended a “bigger” CC in Colorado, they did have Home Fellowships, but the only thing they could teach was what the pastor taught on the previous Sunday, so it was limited in what could be discussed or taught, so still under pastoral control.

    I never attended one after reading the description about it, so maybe more can go on there than was in the printed material, I don’t know.

    #29 Solomon – great comment about how Paul never asked for a dime from the Corinthians so the gospel was free of charge. There seems to be an underlying current in churches that to get accepted, you need to be a “regular or faithful” tither. I hate that you have to pay to be accepted by the club…and if I may be so bold, I think Jesus hates this too.

  32. MyLordAndMyGod @31

    Other than the accountant and IRS absolutely no one but you and God needs to know what you give to the church. The senior pastor should completely excuse himself from being privy to any giving from anyone to avoid any favoritism. Unfortunatley it seems in practice its exactly opposite where only the senior pastor knows what is going on with the finances.

  33. I visited a new church by myself last week. When I walked in I was surprised there were only about 40 people there.They had one of these old fashioned free standing buildings. You know, white church with a steeple. The CC’s in the area have overtaken all the other churches and have rendered them “dead”. People want to go where the “action is”.
    This was a non-demon church and they passed an offering plate around. I planned on giving something small as a visitor, but didn’t bring my checkbook and had only a larger bill on me, (the young girl passing the plate asked “are you contributing?” and walked to someone else (I wa the only person in the row), and when I looked up, the Pastor was staring at me, and I felt completely uncomfortable. It bothered me for a week because I couldnt figure out that look on his face. Was he wondering if I would give? Was he trying to see how much I would give? was it just a coincidence? Why was he watching the plate? was he that desperate?
    For days after,I thought about how successful my CC was. And how many churches must be struggling because of it. How many sheep have been taken away by the ambiance of the expensive Starbuck experience.Seeing thousands of people happy, successful and a “thriving” environment, completely opposite of this little struggling church.
    Don’t know why I posted this here. Reading about financial issues brough it to mind.
    There must be some great Pastors who just can’t compete with these megachuches.
    They get the reputation based on numbers, and people buy into that.

  34. Hannah’s comment is interesting, because what she said the CC did to other churches where she lives, is what other churches did to the CC’s where I live. CC has a “cool” factor, but the Rick Warren-style churches are even “more cool” than any CC, and so that is how it went even in Orange County, where CC started. Rick Warren planted satellite churches in virtually every city of Orange County, and CC’s are emptying, even CCCM looks empty compared to what it was years ago.

    And where I live, the CC’s are languishing with 40 people, while the “cool” churches are full to the brim.

    So just wait. Wherever you live, once a sufficiently “cool” Rick Warren-style pastor gets to town, he’ll take the CC people too.

    The “cooler” pastor always gets the people. ;)

  35. Yes Andy, I agree, what Hannah said is very interesting. It made me think of conversations I have been having with others the past couple weeks.

    When you are out and about how many old mom and pop type gas stations do you see? Think back to 10, 20, and 30 years ago. How many did you see then? Unless you are out in a rural area you probably never see one anymore. How many mom and pop hardware stores, mom and pop lumber yards do you see? Home Depot, Lowes and Menards have run the mom and pops out of business.

    This is BIG BIG BUSINESS! So now think about the satellite churches promoted at the 2012 CCSP. Do you reckon that there could possibly be a comparison, and this is the way corporate churchianity is moving? It’s BIG BUSINESS.

    Isn’t it ironic that many of my families pastors are all hearing from the Lord to open up satellite churches? Could it have anything to do with they all built huge churches when times were good, and since the economy turned it’s been difficult to fleece the flock? So now they get smaller churches under them to pay it forward. Continue building their kingdom.

    A common thing now is also to see churches merge together and refer to themselves as campuses so as not to offend the “un-churched”. One church around here to do this is called Praxis and I just can’t help but think of DIAPRAX IN THE CHURCH.

    Here is something else I have been thinking about. If you were to sell or incorporate your small church to the bigger one. Put up the giant screen and pipe in the “cooler” pastor to put more giving units in the seats. Uncool pastor would lose some control of the ability to manipulate people so he refuses satellite church. If uncool pastor was to sell out to cool pastor, how long before cool pastor gets rid of uncool pastor and puts his own facilitator in uncool pastor’s place? After all you must understand this is simply BIG BUISNESS.

  36. Calvary Chapel is basically a large corporation. Corporations sometimes split and sometimes merge with changing market conditions. In the lean economic times we are in now, I could potentially see a merger of the Calvary Chapel network and the Mars Hill network with Mark Driscoll to gain more market share for each network that they could not achieve alone. Although Calvary Chapel is basically Arminian and Mark Driscoll is basically reformed, what they appear to share in ministry philosophy may outweigh their theological differences. A merger like this would put even more of the faithful pastors of small congregations out of business. How sad this is.

    I don’t want to judge a mega church for being large but it appears that the mega church phenomena that we see manifest in many Calvary Chapels was birthed in American with the influence of Peter Drucker who denied being a born again Christian. I think when the business corporate aspect of any church starts to over shadow the biblical categories of church leadership and function, we have a huge problem.

  37. Andrew,
    Good points.
    The marketing strategies are evident in these large churches. Much is spent in the area of media to make sure it is all marketed to the “consumer” properly.
    It’s not enough anymore to go to a restaurant with good food.
    It has to have ambiance, hip people, TV’s all over to catch every game….
    So we can also carry this over to that industry as well.
    The small, family owned restaurants are dying.
    Now there are groups of restauranteers who have the bucks to woo the senses, for the all around restaurant experience. The food seems to not be as important as the experience.

  38. Oh, that was directed to Jeremy too!

  39. The large churches will never put the small church pastors “out of business”. That’s never going to happen, because many small church pastors will continue to do what they’ve always done, teach the Bible. They get side jobs if they need to, live a simpler life that doesn’t include the expenses built into being a megachurch pastor.

    There are always people I run into that say, they go to small churches on purpose. They don’t want the doctrinal ignorance that comes from some megachurches, where they downplay a lot of doctrine in order to catch a larger group. There will always be people that avoid the megachurches, and the small churches will always exist for them.

  40. The thought also occurred to me, there’s also a prophetic aspect to all of this as well. While there is nothing wrong with a megachurch, yet for many of us, it is faithfulness to the right teaching of the Bible, that matters. A church can have five people and do that, or 50,000 people and do that.

    But as the megachurches join up to “work together”, they have to dissolve doctrine in order to do that. And that will force people that are more serious about doctrine, out of that “system”, and the smaller churches will always exist for those people.

  41. Greg Lauri said in panel discussion:

    In essentials unity,
    in non-essentials liberty
    and it all things charity

    However, It appears that the essentials are fast becoming allegiance to the SENIOR pastor to serve his agenda and vision rather than essentials pertaining to proper doctrine.

  42. #41 – thank you – you put into words what I was thinking too.

  43. I think of what I have heard about China and how the Lord is moving and there are more new Christians there each day. Given they are the largest nation in population on earth, I guess that makes sense, but one wonders how they can ever get church done with no buildings since they aren’t allowed by the government to have them. (Being facetious).

    I also wonder how many lay pastors there are in small groups all over that nation, not getting megachurch pastor salaries. It seems to me this is the how the New Testament churches operated & could it be one reason the Lord is working so strongly there?

  44. “In essentials unity,
    in non-essentials liberty
    and it all things charity”

    Laurie didn’t make that up, of course. It was made up by someone with quite dubious doctrine, and I stop listening to the teachings of anyone that use that little saying, since they are basically telling you that doctrine isn’t all that important to them.

    Whereas the Bible teaches that all Scripture is essential, and there is no such thing as “non-essential” doctrine.

    I was done with Laurie years ago, and now I remember why.

  45. “There’s No Business Like Show Business”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkYcGExumKs

  46. Defining Workplace Violence

    According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), workplace violence is defined as: “Any physical assault, threatening behavior or verbal abuse occurring in the work setting. It includes but is not limited to beatings, stabbing, suicides, shootings, rapes, near suicides, psychological traumas such as threats, obscene phone calls, an intimidating presence, and harassment of any nature such as being followed, sworn at or shouted at.”

  47. Harassment: Intentionally striking, shoving or kicking another, or subjecting another person to physical contact, or threatening to do the same (without physical injury). Also, using abusive or obscene language or folling a person about in public places, or engaging in a course of conduct which alarms or seriously annoys another person.

    Its kind of sad that we have to look to the world to help control the behavior of some pastors. It’s important that these men who do such things be reported in order to make the much needed change within the church.

  48. During the end of my employment with Calvary Chapel Visalia, I endured a tremendous amout of intimidation at the had of Bob Grenier. So much so that as I would pull into the parking lot, I would start shaking and crying. It was hell for me. I’m grateful to be rid of that part of my life, now I do what I can to help others recover from pastorial abuse.

  49. One more thought to consider…Would we allow our secular boss to get away with it? Probably not, because they are held accountable. You could go to another person within the orginization and file a complaint. Within the CC structure you don’t have anyone to turn to, in fact I was told, “Oh that’s just the way he is, you just have to get used to it.” So you put up with it or loose your job. What’s wrong with this picture?

  50. A LOT is wrong with this picture, Tina!

    Bob Grenier could not have gotten away with this in the workplace.

    It baffles me how we can read the NT where we are told to judge those inside the church to see if their fruits are in keeping with the faith as well as to judge those who are in leadership to see if they fit the biblical qualifications for leadership, and yet the CC system tells us we have to wait until they are convicted in a court of law before we can apply church discipline to them. Why? Was the NT’s prescription for how to take action if the fruit is bad, not good enough?

    God wanted us to take care of things “in house” as much as possible so that we would be a good testimony to the world. We are to correct our own. We are to make things right with others without the courts mandating us to do so. We are to love our own without leaving that job for the world to pick up our wounded.

    YET, Bob Grenier has been left unchecked by:

    * Chuck Smith … who ordained him,
    * Calvary Chapel … Bob’s affiliating agency,
    * CCOF … CC;s hub of authority, or whatever they claim to be these days,
    * CCVisalia’s board members …
    * CCV’s elders … who don’t have authority in a CCsystem, but do from the Scriptures.
    * CCV’s congregation … who don’t have any say w/o membership, but should assert common sense and hold Bob accountable for his ungodly actions and attitudes with financial (don’t give) and peer pressure.
    * Other Affliliated CC pastors … who should hold this affiliated brother to account, whether they like Alex or not. It’s not about Alex, it’s about the name of Jesus and responsibility that comes through this affiliation.

  51. * Other local Visalia pastors and ministries … who should hold their fellow pastor to account if no one in his own tribe will. Again, it’s about Jesus’ name.

  52. Praise God that Calvary is talking about this. Let us pray it does not stop at “talking”, but instead grows into “walking”.

    Let us also pray that the attending pastors did not leave with a “phew, hall pass, better be good here forward” attitude as well. Hopefully there is accountability & repentance for current & past offenses.

  53. jeremy w. @ 35

    great words and analysis. ‘church’ sholuld not be business at all. ‘the church’ should be an organic, vital and living group of born again believers small enough to know and be known by each other and be involved in each other’s lives for the mutual edification of the Body of Christ and the commission of sharing the Gospel of Christ with a dying world that desperately needs to hear, believe and be saved.
    -mike

  54. Grateful your right and Michael in Chandler, I agree to. It grieves me that the church is handled like a business, I was actually told that by the head usher. But if that particular church is indeed a business then by all means lets handle it like one and use the sources available to us to bring accountability to the harsh taskmasters. Just maybe then they will realize there needs to be some serious accountability within the church. It should never ever be run by just one person, that is too dangerous and causes dictatorship. It’s not healthy and ruins lives.

  55. thanks tina for the ‘agree’. (i know, it sounds a little self serving)
    -mike

  56. Frankly, I think the powers that e in CC are simply moving to cover their financial butts rather than make changes out of criticism.

  57. It’s been some time since my last comment. I am still in hiding because the betrayal and abuse of a husband who is currently attending the CC School of Ministry. I believe he has committed bigamy. If CC decides to lay hands upon him to be a pastor, then I will pass onto Alex the journals and other documents to enable others to hold them to an account.

    As for the conference, I am hopeful, but like others skeptical. Yet when I read the Raul Ries daily devotional it brings much joy to hear an acknowledgement of the rampant abuse, adultery, and deception taking place throughout the entire body of Christ within the CC churches.

    In reading through the comments, I would like to say well done to each of you who contributed. Each comment was throughtfully articulated. I pray many more would read through them and a movement of the Holy Spirit would prompt an even stronger voice among those who do not have a voice because CC does not have membership, as well as, among those who are in leadership roles to stand up and protect those who are most vulnerable to being abused: women and children. Someone asked the question regarding just who was speaking at the conference on these issues. Excellent question, because if anyone thinks that it is just a matter of an abuser to repent after being exposed, they are sorely being deceived or deceiving themselves.

    Also, be assure where there is a child being abused, most likely the spouse is being abused as well. This will not change until the attitude towards the woman in the home and in the church changes. These issues as well as financial accountability must be addressed and changes instituted. As I have stated before, the Moses model is not biblical. It has no bearing whatsoever in the church and how we as a body (women and females) are to go about assuring and insuring the safety and protection of each “member” to be able to thrive and grow in Christ, free from this sort of tyranny.

    Moses spoke directly to God — Chuck speaks to himself
    Moses gave the right of inheritance to 3 sisters—CC does not respect females to be equal partners in the home or in the church.
    Moses was neither a priest or a shepherd after the law was given and the Levitical Priesthood was ascribed to Aaron.
    There were three that led the captives out of Eqypt: Moses, Aaron, and Miriam
    What CC teaches about the Jewish customs and mindset regarding females is not true. Being of Jewish descent myself, for instance, the reason the men and woman were separated (at times, even by a thin veil or curtain) was to enable each gender to focus upon the worship and teaching of the things of God. Why, due to the distraction of lusting after one another. Not because the women were calling out to their husbands, as some would like to teach. Although on some occasions I supposed this did happened. But this was not the primary reason for separation.

    Funny, even then people thought they could somehow control their or another’s lust by “putting up curtains” or separating the genders. Today, churches just take the voice of the female out of the equation of marriages and participation in the body of Christ. Oh, that they would wake up and hear what Jesus told us. It’s in the heart that leads you to lust after things that are not ours to have. And its in the heart that has to change. This begins by elevating our attitude to respecting each gender as a co heir of Christ, on this earth as well as when He comes for us.

    The other day I heard a pastor wife say to me. “I told my husband that I wish I could have a wife too.” She stated her husband responded: “You do, it is the Holy Spirit.”

    What? From the top down, this is what is what CC teaches and practices. What, the woman’s role is to be a companion to her husband, but he is not to be to her as well? This is not what the Bible teaches. The woman is supposed to support her husband, but the husband is not to be supportive of his wife, but treat her more like a child or a servant to meet his needs and desires only? Contrary to what you may have been taught, the Jewish woman was treated and is treated with far more respect and consideration than this. So why would they want to convert—-to go into bondage. I don’t think so. To see someone like me having to stay in hiding wandering the countryside for a safe place to sleep? I don’t think so.

    My husband has made several statements regarding how I might die. He is afraid he will be exposed. I pray that God would do just this and keep me safe in the process. Unfortunately, he is being protected and now very much involved in the ministry work of CC.

    It is my prayer that this nonsense about CC’s being independent will cease. It is my hope that not only will there continue to be Senior conferences there will be an end to the Moses Model and these “man” kingdoms and corporate political mazes. With all that is within me, I pray that God would purge CC while enabling us all to become vital members having the ability to speak with as much consideration as any one else, and to do so, if necessary to an assembly that can be more objective and impartial in the process.

  58. Correction:

    should read (male and females)

    As I have stated before, the Moses model is not biblical. It has no bearing whatsoever in the church and how we as a body (women and females) are to go about assuring and insuring the safety and protection of each “member” to be able to thrive and grow in Christ, free from this sort of tyranny.

  59. Brian Brodersen of Calvary Chapel has been undermining good christian believers in an attempt to take over leadership at Calvary. He has billed himself as co-pastor. It is very disappointing to see him disrespect Pastor Chuck and other people in the church. Brian has made threats to his father-in-law, Pastor Chuck, and has not demonstrated the servant’s heart needed to be a pastor. Please pray for a change of heart for Brian. He has created confusion for many CC pastors.

  60. because of nepotism!…

    brian is the trojan horse through which evil and compromise has succeeded to infiltrate the cc kingdom while chuck stood by and watched it fall from glory because of cheryl…

    Romaine saw this and died of a broken heart!!!

    and I did too!!!

  61. Just had a thought: If the vote was put to the entire body of Christ within the CC, what would they like to see happened and who would they vote for to succeed Chuck Smith. Please don’t interpret “succeed” as being like Moses or the Pope.

    Working once as Dr. Walter Martin’s Executive Assistant, he shared with me concerning who would take over the ministry he founded. His answer was, it was not his ministry, but God’s ministry, then told me who he had in mind. Never once, not even for a moment or even a hint, did I ever witness Dr. Martin behaving as though he was in charge. But then again, he did have a board of directors and several mentors and associates to keep him humble and fighting the good fight and his eyes upon the Lord.

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