Meet the Family


Pastor Bob Grenier: Calvary Chapel Pastor of 30+ years. Author of “A Common Miracle” (file this mostly in the “fiction” section…or more accurately in the “omission” section…he left an awful lot out of his story “post-saved” and “post-CC Pastor”). Bob was a former drug dealer, drug smuggler and illicit drug user. He got “saved” and ended up at the Shiloh Commune in Oregon, where he met my beautiful mother. He and John Higgins (and some others) fought over my mom’s affection…and lucky us (sarc)…Bob won. He was a very recent convert and while watching a Bible study at Shiloh, said, “I can do that”…and his “career” was born…just like that. Fast-forward just a bit and Bob is the Dove-toting pastor of CC Eugene, Oregon. Very quickly, he “heard from God”…and decided to up and leave CC Eugene…I’ve got some theories of why he received such an abrupt “calling” to leave a brand new house and steady position for Visalia (to basically start over from zero)…but we’ll see if anyone ever comes forward. Bob met with Chuck Smith and told him he wanted to get out of Oregon…Chuck named some places…and Bob chose Visalia. We up and moved to Visalia during the heat of summer. Bob started CC Visalia out of a small apartment with literally about three families. Ironically, George Bryson of CC Vista, took over for Bob at CC Eugene. Bob was a jerk from day one. The first instance of Child Abuse happened when I was 5-years-old…not long after he married my mom in Oregon. As CC Visalia grew in numbers…Bob’s power grew…and so did his temper and his pride and his ego. The stories of his abuse and corruption over the many years will be told in very much detail on these pages. I have a mountain of personal testimony…and a mountain of testimony from former long-time staff, pastors and lay-people…and a group of family members. Some other factors for consideration…Bob has no formal education, he is a Vietnam Vet and has experienced “night terrors” as witnessed by me and other family members, was abused as a child, and has a violent temper. Bob was a heavy drug user “pre-saved” and struggled with “pill addiction” post-saved. The allegations being brought against him are: Child Abuse, Spousal Abuse, Financial Abuse/Corruption, Spiritual Abuse (including cult-like counseling)…among other allegations.

Gayle Grenier: My beautiful mom. She is the victim of Spousal Abuse and a reluctant witness to Child Abuse. She is either intentionally lying to protect her lifestyle and position as “Mrs. Pastor’s Wife”…or she is in denial. It is difficult for me to resolve. There is a version of “our” story out there that requires factual correction. Someone associated with the family or a friend of Bob’s camp stated on another forum that my mom has a “spine of steel” or something to that effect. They re-wrote history and stated that my mom had left my biological father after it came to her attention that he had taken up with another woman…my step-mom of many years. Unfortunately, that version doesn’t square with my Grandma Ruth’s story (God rest her soul), my biological father’s story, my mom’s brother’s story or the story of several other aunts and uncles from my dad’s side of the family. My biological father left my mom…it was only after he left that my mom moved us to Oregon. She puts up the “tough woman” facade…but inside she is walked on by men…both my biological father and the monumental controlling a-hole “Pastor Bob”. My mom has turned her back on her own children. She was complicit in our intense physical abuse. She was complicit in her abuse. She abused herself (verbally) telling my brother Paul she “hates” him and wishes he wasn’t born and doesn’t have him as a son anymore. What kind of mother says those things to their child? Not a sane one, or a good one or a Godly one. Is my mom a victim? Yes, I believe so…I blame most of her condition on Bob’s terrible abusive leadership in our home over the many years and the cult-like practices he’s employed for decades. Does my mom still bear responsibility? Yes, it is hard for me to accept this…but yes, she does. It is a painful reality for me. Not so much for others close to me and my other brothers.

Robert: My little bro…the baby of the family. Robert is 11 years younger than me. I helped raise the kid from when he was a baby. He was abused…not nearly as severely as Geoff or me…but he was abused. Most of the abuse happened when Robert was older and I was out of the home…Paul witnessed it and has shared the many accounts with me. One of the fruits of the abuse was manifested, IMO, when Robert had a stint at the Visalia Rescue Mission…and later when Robert was suicidal and was admitted to Cyprus Mental Health Facility on Akers Road in Visalia. Right after Robert was admitted, Bob and my mom took off for a vacation to Whistler, Canada. Paul stayed and cared for Robert…he took him cigarettes, fast food and candy daily…while Bob and my mom were living it up on their get-away. Robert, IMO, is only the “golden boy” now…because he is the Last Mohican…the only brother that provides cover for Bob and his abusiveness. When Bob’s sin wasn’t being confronted…Bob had no problem sending Robert to the Visalia Rescue Mission…and had no problem leaving for Canada on vacation…while Robert was in a Mental Facility contemplating suicide. Bob has been a terrible influence on Robert, IMO. Robert has made threats to several people in the past and I hope and pray he doesn’t repeat his father’s abusive and violent behavior. Robert has also made a couple of false allegations toward me and toward Paul. Robert is the sole witness of these allegations…one involves me “hitting my wife”…which is false. He claims a “neighbor” made the allegation…yet no neighbor has come forward…and my wife is upset and shocked at the false allegation. I have owned sin that I am guilty of…I am innocent on this one. I do not “beat my wife”…if I had, my wife would have had me thrown in jail…and her dad would have probably shot me before I got there. He has made an allegation toward Paul, which I believe is false. The timing was after we went public with Bob’s Child Abuse…no mention of the allegation was made while Robert was in the Mental Health Facility telling people all of the other issues that he believed brought him to that desperate point in his life. No corroboration, no evidence, just Robert.

Paul: My brother, Bob’s full son, who is 10 years younger than me. I helped raise Paul, much like Robert. Paul is a graduate from Fresno State University. He is basically a paralegal and will be entering Law School this fall. Paul is homosexual…an excuse Bob uses, IMO, to deflect attention away from Bob’s abusiveness…and a tactic to “poison the well” with regards to Paul’s damning testimony about many issues. Paul was physically abused, witnessed me, Geoff and Robert being abused…and witnessed Bob on top of my mother, with both hands on her throat, choking her. When Paul was inside “the circle of trust”…he ran around with my mom and Bob quite often…he was the beneficiary of much of the church’s money in the form of personal items from cash from the CC envelope on many many trips to SoCal and many trips around the country and even trips around the world. Paul took pills with my parents. He witnessed Bob “stoned on pills” (as others have). He heard much of their back-biting and lying…he watched Bob spin board members and out-and-out lie to them. Bob had no problem with Paul’s homosexuality…we all knew about it early on…until Paul took a stand against Bob’s abusiveness within our family. Then all of the sudden…Paul is a homosexual to be shunned, ignored and disbelieved. That is how Bob rolls. Paul has reported the abuse to Visalia Police Department and has been interviewed by Detective Bill Diltz. Paul has been through much counseling and has struggled with the effects of the abuse, much like I have.

Geoff: He is my brother. We have the same dad. Geoff was mercilessly abused growing up…to the point that a weaker individual probably wouldn’t have survived the intense physical and emotional torture. Geoff is one tough guy…and a survivor. He was beaten head to toe with the branch of a mulberry tree, he was locked in a small closet, kicked by Bob while he was writhing on the floor of our home in pain because his appendix was going to burst…and Bob thought he was “faking it”. Geoff was punched in the face, hit in the face with an open hand, made to eat cigarettes until he threw up, kicked out of Bob’s old VW bug on highway 99 just south of Fresno, in the dark of night…after Bob had abused him in a public store…and then hit him wildly while Geoff was cowering in the back seat of the car while Bob was speeding down the highway. Geoff was hit with paddles and other objects leaving purple bruises on his butt, back of legs and back. There are many other instances…and incessant lecturing, screaming, yelling, pushing, grabbing and threatening. At 16-years-old, Bob punched Geoff in the face, knocking him to the ground. Geoff stood up and defended himself. Bob kicked him out of the house…made CCV elder Glick Callahan drive Geoff to the airport and shipped him off to his biological father back east. It was devastating…to our whole family. I was personally told I could not, under any circumstance, communicate with my brother. That would be a loyalty issue. Bob’s “temper” problem was all Geoff’s fault…or that’s how Bob framed it. Geoff was now outside “the circle of trust”…my mom was not allowed to speak to him, either. Somehow, though…Bob continued to be physically and verbally abusive AFTER Geoff was gone…so it couldn’t have been “Geoff’s fault”. Geoff ended up at my Uncle’s…my mom’s brother…not long after going back east. While at my Uncles, Bob visited and my Aunt witnessed Bob striking Geoff in the face several times with an open hand and yelling at him and grabbing him violently. Both my Aunt and Uncle were told by Geoff about many of the abuses that occurred in our home. Geoff went on to have a very successful D-1 College Football career…and was even signed as a free agent and played briefly in the NFL, then NFL Europe and eventually Arena Football before an injury stopped his career. To date, Geoff has a very successful career as a C-level executive for a large Asset Based Transportation/Trucking company in SoCal and Tennessee. A half a year ago, Geoff had a long conversation with Gary Ruff of Calvary Chapel Foothills where he and Gary recounted Gary’s witnessing Bob pushing Geoff into a hotel hallway wall and smacking him in the face repeatedly and then dragging Geoff off to a hotel room and the screaming and crying that ensued. Gary recounted how he and Geoff spoke in Gary’s hotel room at length about what Gary witnessed first-hand…and Geoff shared some of the situation at home with Gary at that time. Gary approached my mom about the incident he witnessed, and my mom said, “it happened all the time”. Nothing was reported, Bob wasn’t confronted. This was 1985 and much abuse occurred after that opportunity to put a stop to it…in fact, some of the worst of the abuse occurred after that date. In 1995, Bob “made his peace with Geoff” and apologized for “losing his temper”…this was when Geoff was on the verge of signing with the New York Giants in the NFL. IMO, Bob minimized the abuse…and framed it as his “temper”…and apologized for being a “bad father”…without taking responsibility for Child Abuse…and not addressing specifics…and not apologizing or addressing these issues with me or with Paul…and then Bob continued to abuse Paul after the so-called “apology”…Paul was physically abused until 1997…and was verbally abused and bullied as recently as over 6 years ago, while he was still in the home. Geoff was extremely gracious and accepted what was a non-apology apology, IMO. Later, when Geoff’s football career was over, and I and Paul confronted Bob over continuing abusiveness within the family…Geoff was asked to lie about the abuse. The question was put to Geoff, “we didn’t commit any Child Abuse…and those things in Alex’s ‘letter’ weren’t true…were they Geoff?” Geoff said, “Yes, Alex’s letter was all true and then some. Yes you did abuse us. Don’t re-write history.” Geoff was then summarily cut out and cast out of the family…for being truthful. My mom won’t speak to him…won’t return a call or an email. Geoff has done nothing wrong…other than not lie and cover for them. He is a victim of abuse…to this day. Geoff corroborates the abuse and has been interviewed by Detective Bill Diltz of the VPD. Geoff has been through much counseling to deal with the abuse…and has struggled with its many effects…as I and Paul have.

 Posted by at 4:24 pm

  40 Responses to “Meet the Family”

  1. Alex, your assessment of your father’s psychology is right on. This, from a person who has dealt with someone of the same baffling condition over several decades. It is called paranoid personality disorder with a possible narcissistic element, or the other way around. I do feel from your comments that you are aware of this orientation. I understand such a person must present a blameless, holy, utterly caring and perfect image to the public, to society, to “others”, whereas he or she is free to unleash any degree of cruelty on the closest and most intimate relatives. Seeking a position as pastor may be the most direct way to establish such an image.

    Such a person will never allow any acountability for his cruelty. He, in, fact, does not see himself as cruel. He believes his manufactured image of the blameless one. He has no realization that he is harming anyone. Any attempt to seek understanding of your plight will be met with a ferocious anger and contradiction, and ultimately physical harm, if pressed further. Your arguments will be cleverly pointed back at you. He will tell the crowd he controls how unreasonable you are. And, they will believe him!

    There is no way to reach this closed, hateful mind. There is only one way out: retreat. Retreat, however, will test you, and could take years. I believe retreat involves finding a way to believe in yourself and slowly but purposefully make smaller and more and more distant the sense of injustice you have suffered. In the end you will triumph and say, “I don’t need you in my life anymore. I am free of you!”. So, let him have his adhererers. Your mother is one whom he controls. She is a victim. If you find your way, so will she.

  2. I have been shocked and saddened by by the witness accounts. I know the Bible does say, don’t listen to accusations against a pastor unless there are two or there witnesses which it sounds like there are. So I believe you should be heard by them and the bible teaches us that any of us christians who sin should be rebuked in front of the whole congregation that others may fear. As the living bible puts it: even if the pastor is a special friend of yours to proceed in this manner. Well praise God for the few churches that do this so thier members can be afraid of sinning and facing the music; while the majority of us church goers have no fear because we have never experienced this sound doctrine in our churches. I remembr hearing good things about a Calvary Chapel that I think was meeting at the YMCA in the early 80’s. In high school I and friends were ministered to by pastor Bob on the radio as well as Raul Ries, then from Calvary Chapel West Covina. Raul also a vietnam vet has a testimony of escaping from satans trap of slavery to sin and becoming a new person that I enjoyed hearing. Yes the horrors of war can do bad things to people and being abused as a child is another factor. I have only been at that church a few times, but did seek counsel from Bob once when I was going through great tribulation, I have always thought Bob and Raul were wonderful Bible teachers. If anyone desires to be a minister he has a good ambition. One thing that made people believe the some of the apostles was that they were uneducated men and the listeners knew thier teaching must be from God. I know that you grew up in an era that was starting to outlaw physical punishment of children, while our parents grew up in an era that stressed scriptures like, don’t listen to his cries when you punish him, and use a stick on him and you will save his soul from hell, if you fail to punish him it proves you don’t love him. Old testament of course, the new testament just says, who ever heard of a child that didn’t receive some sort of punishment. The bible says then we’d be bastards and not sons. I know some of what you describe does go beyond the confines of Christian living and thier is nothing hidden that will not be known. We are not told the time or way things will be made known. Remember, love your enemies too and pray for the peace and happiness of those who mistreat you. Pray not only for truth and justice but for God’s happiness and peace in the lives of those who need it. God Bless You.

  3. Thank you Dana. All very well put, IMO.

  4. How long will this go on?. They drove me to suicide. By the grace of God and a wonderful Jesus, and a bunch of therapy, I’m still here. Some 40 years later, and they’re still at it? Unreal. Rabid crocodiles are nicer than them. Oh, but remember, according to them we’re just “holding onto the past.” Oh yeah, they need Scriptures: White-washed sepulchres, clouds without rain, brood of 2-step vipers. Okay, so Jesus didn’t say “2-step.” A preacher who does that abusive stuff is Bible-impaired.

  5. …a perfect image to the public and stupid jokes about the hokie-pokie guy dying.

  6. Alex,
    I just read through this page. I am very sorry to hear what you went through. I am rather new to the whole CC thing. But I wanted to let you know that I am praying for you. I once worked for a man in another denomination who was a very difficult man to work for. I always felt bad for his kids thinking that they must really be under immense pressure and control at home based on how I felt just being around their dad during work hours.

    I am praying for your full healing and for your brothers and family. It’s not for me to judge what happens or happened. I do know from my own experiences that God knows, God sees, and God cares.

    I pray you find rest, healing and wholeness in Him. I pray that you will find comfort in the God of all comfort and that you will find comfort from other believers in a local church, of which ever denomination or fellowship God leads you to.

    Francis Anfuso wrote a book called “Father Wounds” that may be helpful to you.

    Praying for you,

  7. Hey Alex,
    I am the editor over at Lighthouse Trails. I heard little bits and pieces about what happened and then came across this website tonight. I’d like to send you a complimentary copy of a book we published last year by a man who was horribly abused as a child. The book is called The Color of Pain. I think you will find it a worth while read and hopefully encouraging. If you want it, just email me.


  8. Hi Deborah, that would be great. I’ll find you on LHT and email you an address. The abuse has always been a thorn, especially since it was sold as our fault and sold as God’s will and following God, etc. The pastor relationship was very confusing and powerfully manipulative.

  9. Deborah, I emailed to the LHT editor’s email address. Thanks again. Let me know if you didn’t get it.

  10. Wow Alex! I am so sorry! My heart breaks for you and your brothers. It brought tears to my eyes. I know that the Bible says to not spare for his crying and that foolishness is bound in the heart of a child and the rod of correction will drive it far from them. However, Ephesians 6:4 says:
    “And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” It appears that in no way did this man nurture you. The Word of God says that we should pray that whatever breaks His heart will break our heart. And I know this to be true on numerous occasions including this one. This breaks my God’s heart! Alex, you were fearfully and wonderfully made. God knew you before you were created in your mothers womb. He set you apart and He has a plan for you. I can never imagine what you have gone through all these years and still trust in the Lord. Well done! You have a Heavenly Father that adores you and wants to love on you. My prayers are going up for you and your brothers now on a daily basis that you will be reminded of your True Father’s unconditional love for you. And I know that He must be very proud of you for standing up for the Truth!
    In Christ’s Love,

  11. Wow, everyone is buying the Kool Aid you are selling. Written words on a blog don’t make it true people! I can say “the President’s wife Michelle propositioned me in Spain. There are several witnesses who saw it and corroborated my story.” Does that make it true? NO!

    I do feel sorry for you not having a relationship with your Mother. I find it strange though, that none of this situation is your fault, but all hers, Bob’s and all Calvary Chapel pastor’s fault.

  12. LOL at Derrick’s comment. I mean, as we all know, there is NO WAY that anything negative said about any Calvary chapel person, could possibly be true. Don’t we all know that? What is the problem, people???

    There is one perfect Person, Jesus Christ. Wait, there are more perfect people, they are all Calvary chapel pastors. Thank you, Derrick, for showing me the way.

  13. I have experianced both good and bad at cccm.. My thought is this.. If Chuck Smith did say he had that full authority over alll Calvarys wouldnt that get him in legal trouble or at least change his tax bracket or something. Im concerned that though you OBVIOUSLY Have a solid case and real true scars Is your pain worth hurting the Bible smugglers in china or some less then above par missionary stuff? Is it worth all this just beacuse you were abused? I was for real abused too as a child so please dont write me off. I dont know if Chuck even would suffer any consequences from owning up.. Just wandering your thoughts on everyones else in the world besides yourself being effected or maybe I am not understanding this whole thing entirely.. .. Seriously though you went to alot of trouble to be lying that is obvious. Apologetics say that the diciples having diffrent views actually helped there witness as well as time they spent suffering and fighting..Keep Your head up..

  14. Hi Alex, I have been reading stuff from your web site for a few days now just trying to make sense of it all. Tonight I heard the phone conversation you had with Pastor Chuck on Dec. 3rd. I will not give my opinon of the whole situation on this site, but I did think as an outsider a good question you may of asked Pastor Chuck. He seemed to not understand the idea that he had “no authority” in this situation. I wonder if he would feel the same way if it was one of his grandson’s who was abused/molested at the hand’s of a Calvary Chapel pastor. Would he still have ” No authority”…something changes when it is suddenly a personal issure. I would of liked to hear his response.

  15. Were you ever at the widows table for single mom’s in Shiloh. My mother ran it when I was 7. Also did you know that John Higgins divorced his wife in shiloh and married their baby sitter?

  16. TL, didn’t know that about Higgins, or I forgot about it…so much of that stuff in CC. Courson has a similar story. Dying wife, then marries the babysitter…and it wasn’t a sin-free transition to the younger babysitter. Not that I’m any better, but I cop to sin and I know I’m not qualified to be a pastor…and many of the CC Pastors have disqualified themselves…and preach law to the sheep and hold their assistants and “sheep” to Law…while giving themselves and their fellow CC pastor buddies maximum grace.

  17. For those that didn’t read this on another page, please read this.

    Alex said ,” It was after much prayer that I started this site” Alex, just who are you praying to?

    You also said ,”I was told that much that happened at the last CCSPC 2012 was “in spite of” this blog, etc and that much more is coming…to which I replied “good, I don’t care, as long as it happens”…but I am intelligent enough to know that w/o all the noise, not much would’ve gotten done. ” Wow!, you give yourself a lot of credit. You are just a gnat to them., nothing more. You haven’t helped anything but you have helped devil. You use your anger against CC under the guise that you care about the kids of CC getting molested. I see you as a bitter man/child trying to hurt and divide the body of Christ at any cost. It’s too bad because you were created to be so much more. This site has not brought healing or comfort. I cringe when you quote Scripture or talk about God. It is so hypocritical I am scared for you on judgement day.

    I was hurt at a CC and came across this blog. I had hoped to find others who were hurting to talk and pray with. I had hoped to find people here that would encourage me and share how the Lord had helped them. I had hoped to find godly people and hoped we could help each other through a shared trial. What I found here was pure ugliness. Another poster said it well: “Well if this site cares so much about the abused, why is so much energy geared toward tearing down CC’s. Shouldn’t it be about recovery, seeking resources, forgiving and moving on? Where’s the encouragement?” Well, it certainly isn’t here.

    If any of you are truly believers who have been hurt, I hope you will not stay on this site. It won’t build you up, it will only tear you down.

  18. Responses to “Julie M” from other thread:

    Julie M, I’d send you Chuck Smith’s way for some comfort etc, but he’d probably tell you to “get a life!” and to not be bitter and to move on and vote with your feet.

    I don’t think that’s the right advice from Chuck. I think speaking truth to him and CC and exposing the bad stuff and keeping the heat on is the way to go.

    Don’t be fooled that exposing the many issues and that CC Molestation lawsuit in Idaho etc etc haven’t been a huge factor in some changes and change in emphasis at the last CCSPC. IMO, it’s a naive conclusion. CCCM and CC has more leaks than the Titanic. I get feedback often of just how much this stuff has been discussed and is affecting their decisions. Sometimes to spit in our collective faces by some…sometimes good directions by others who are in CC leadership who agree there are legit problems that need to be addressed. You’ve got a complex Group Dynamic there…it’s the Good, the Bad and the Ugly…all mixed together….and the war for the good changes has been influenced by exposing all the garbage….and exampling how the bad stuff affects people and sticks with them.

    Julie M, maybe you missed this on this page above:

    “Let me be very upfront…this blog is not primarily about healing…at least my participation anyway. I am not a pastor and do not possess the gift to help those who have been hurt by the Church. I have other gifts and am exercising those as I feel led. If you want healing go to…Matt and Esther DeWitt are gifted and have a heart for victims of bad church situations. I am hopeful there will be pastors with the proper “gifts” and the heart of a pastor who will come on here and help victims of abuse (if they feel led). That is not my calling. I am who I am.

    This blog is about accountability and justice.”

    I would refer you to Matt and Esther Dewitt (Esther is George Bryson’s estranged daughter who wrote a book titled, “There’s a Cult Leader in My Kitchen” about her negative experiences with her dad and CC. They used to run a “healing” site…but I think it’s gone dark. There are “healing” resources I’ve linked on the Blogroll and there are some voices on here: Bryan, Grateful, Hannah and many others who can help you with the “healing” needs. Unfortunately, I’m not that guy.

  19. Alex,

    I read through the comments describing the horrendous, evil, maniacal, and deceitful abusive, terrorizing, tyrranical, taunting, mocking, covert and direct behaviors that you and your family have endured. Being a licensed therapist, so you will know and then can study the inner workings, to enable you to contend better and to process through all of this, your stepfather is not a paranoid disordered person, as suggested. By the description that you provided I would say that he is a Narcisist Personality Disordered person of the Malignant type, but with psychopathic features.

    Please understand “psychopath” is not used in the clinician DSM (Diagnotic Statistical Manual), but elsewhere it is used quite liberally. Some clinicians will use sociopathy or sociopath and others will use antisocial in place of psych0path. I disagree with the latter, as Antisocials are those who are less sophisticated in their con, whereas the sociaopath and psychopath are far more advanced in their treacering and exploitativenss and rarely find themselves in prison. Instead, they are frequently, more than nome found in leadership roles and are known to keep their “loved’ ones under a strict and short leash.

    The bottom line is that anyone that is targeted and preyed upon by these individual suffer inevitable harm and the person guilty of such atrocities almost always walks away with everyone beliveing the false image he or seh has created among those whom could have helped you and your family. This person will exploit others to also perpetuate the abuse being done. A good reference to see if this dits the psychopath description is: Sandra Brown’s . From there you can get additional resources to win your quest to bring justice and to remove this person from his position as a pastor for CC.

    I feel very angry over what you and your family experienced and are still experiencing. I woud imagine that each of you may have suffered what is called PTSD. It would be a normal response to a abnormal and extreme long term continuiing trauma. I’m sorry that the courts statutes limits their ability to prosecute him. But have you thought about bringing a civil suit against him? In my book (the Bible), he is not a Christian, no matter how many tears he may have shed to put on to be otherwise.

    Another thought you may by now know: this type of person must have a target to prey upon. Its a way of keep himself feeling in control and enable him to project the badness in him upon. Think of it this way –this is really basic: they think of ways (fantazize) ways to torment and to punish their target. In turn, they then relive their own torture and abused self, but they don’t have to feel the pain. In a large part, they become their own abuser, while deriving pleasure sadistically and also gives him a false sense of control. Does any of this strike a chord with you, Alex.

    BTW —This person must do this over and over and over again, because he believes he can only purge the monster that lives within himself. In reality, he has lost himself and he thrives on what he can scavenge from others to give him this false and grandiose false idealizsation that he is other than what he really is and how he must maintain it. Your stepfather is like the little boy that went to where the wild things are, but never returned. Unless God does something, he will never admit his faults nor will he ever repent.

    Hope this equips you more than trigger you. Alex.

  20. Edited:

    Another thought you may by now know: this type of person must have a target to prey upon. Its a way of keep himself feeling in control and enable him to project the badness in him upon. Think of it this way –this is really basic: they think of ways (fantazize) ways to torment and to punish their target. In turn, they then relive their own torture and abused self, but they don’t have to feel the pain. In a large part, they become their own abuser, while deriving pleasure sadistically and also gives him a false sense of control. Does any of this strike a chord with you, Alex.

    BTW —This person must do this over and over and over again, because he believes he can only purge the monster that lives within himself by doing things things to those he believes cannot fight back or will not fight back to expose him. In reality, he has lost himself and he thrives on what he can scavenge from others to enable him to maintain this false image he has contrived. So in a large part, he is constantly on the hunt for prey to use to support this image and anyone that does not he will discredit and destroy if necessary, if they get in his way. Your stepfather is like the little boy that went to “Where the Wild Things are, but never returned. Anything short of God’s hand upon this, there is not a chance on this planet that he will ever repent.

    But then again, nothing is too difficult for God, nor is anything impossible.

  21. Alex, your response to Julie M is admirable. Please don’t let comments like hers side track you in your efforts to gain accountability and justice. You, more than anyone knows the depth and the breadth of the abuse you and your family have suffered. And Julie M, you are at minimum lacking in your scriptural knowledge of what God himself has told us. That is, we are to seek mercy, to do justice, and to walk humbly with our God. What more he tells us that we are to stand up for the oppressed and to bring those who have done evil to justice. I would challenge you to spend one day of what Alex and his family endured. Better yet, I would challenge you to spend 2 hours, alone with his stepfather, then try to bring it to the attention of CC. Alex has followed the Matthew 18 process, but was called a liar and made out to be a villain.

    No person could have made up what he and his brothers experienced unless it was true. That’s just the way it is with people who have been abused. And for you or anyone else to tell him or any other victim that they are wrong to want the abuser to be held to an account for multiple reasonable, but mostly to see justice done, is even more wrong. For evil can only reign when good people stand by and do nothing. E. Burke.

  22. Let me make this clear, Alex is not wrong in doing what he is trying to accomplish. Julie M made out like she thought that he was wrong, so in my last statment saying she or anyone else that would make him out to be wrong is “even more wrong” was a way of saying that she needed to check herself and the loyalty that she has with CC that blinds her to exposing wrong doings in the pulpit and among the body of Christ.

  23. Linda,

    The DSM is a book of diagnosis’ based on the wisdom of man.
    It gives people labels according to human wisdom, not God’s Word.
    Especially children who used to be called shy, now being labeled “social personality disorder”, or kids who are assertive “attention deficit disorder”, so they all can be given medications for life.

    Berean call has a DVD on psychology that reveals the history of the DSM. Oddly, Scientology also has a good one you can see on Youtube called “The Drugging of America” and reveals how the pharmaceutical companies are in on this. No disresepct to your profession.

    Sin is sin. I don’t buy the “sociopath”, “psychopath” “narcissistic personality disorder” “oppositional defiant” labels. God call us sinners, liars, deceivers, wretched, fornicators, idolators, lovers of money, lovers of selves, adulterers etc.. When we accept human “wisdom” we make up our own words, and thus excuses for sinful behavior. You made a comment about repentence. That is the key. If we look outside of God’s Word, and look to the secular sources on how to live, we end up with this fallen world we are living in. The lost are controlling our minds, God needs to redeem them and us. Not that counseling can’t help, but only if it is grounded in the Word.
    No amount of DSM diagnoses’ or medications will convert the sinner.
    Who came up with these labels and changed God’s Word to suit the pharmaceutical companies so they can drug us , numb us to our sin and our need for repentance and conversion? It allows someone to have an “excuse” aka “label” for what God calls an unrepentant, wretched heart. As long as a “professional” takes the place of “THE Professional aka God, and all things pertaining to life and death are not judged and measured according to the Word, there will be no change in behavior.

  24. By the way, for anyone who does not know-the DSM stands for “The Diagnosis and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders”

    It was first published in the early 1950’s and contained only 100 or so “mental disorders”.
    Now it is in it’s 5th printing and contains almost 1,000 “mental disorders”.

  25. Berean Call article: “Can Psychology Undermine Christians”?

    I want to add, that I have been guilty of using the “narcissist” label because I once went to a Christian counselor that used that term. Until I became convicted of my own error.

  26. Hannah,

    I appreciate what you shared regarding your position on the DSM. Unfortunately our culture has become heavily dependent upon being prescribed medication to work through the problems they are experiencing and learning to cope with their feelings particularly when having to work through not getting what they want or having to die to themselves in order to do the right thing.

    You are mistaken however in the purpose for the DSM. No where will you find that given a set of criteria that meets a certain mental health diagnosis will there be anything mentioned concerning what medication to prescribe. Many therapist, like myself are very opposed the amount of medication that is replacing good counsel. As for the type of counseling I use, not once do I compromise God’s Word in my practice. This can be a challenge among my colleagues, particularly in the state that I practice. But because I do post myself as a Christian therapist, it does take a lot of heat off of me.

    I agree with you entirely that when all is said and done, the issue always has to do with the matter of the heart. When providing therapy one must be able to determine what is going on with the client in order to help them. People thoughts and mood can be terribly set off balance due to such things as being raped, molested, traumatized, beaten, and so many other things. I remember once having parents come in where I was an intern and asked if their was a counselor available that knew God’s Word. My supervisor knew that I was so she assigned them to me. There concern was for their 3 year old who was experiencing some very strange symptoms. Now, if I didn’t know God’s word and if I only knew the DSM, I would have diagnosed the child as having some sort of thought disorder with hallucinations. I would have sent the child to have a MRI for a brain scan for a possible tumor. I would have asked for certain blood test to be done as well. There are so many things that could have been causing these things.

    After interviewing the parents and getting a history I then spent quite a bit of time with the child. What I came up with was a possible demon possession going on, which is not my area of expertise as far as exorcisms. But I did know of 2 well reknown Christian psychologist that had alot more experience in this area, so I made the call and the parents set up an appointment with them.

    It sounds to me like you have thrown the baby out with the bath water. Unfortunately, there more and more of the bais tenets of psychology is becoming integrated with such teaching s of eastern philosophies, just like many churches have done. But that doesn’t mean that all therapist buy into this. I don’t and most of my colleagues do not. At the same time, many therapist will say they are Christian, but what they mean is they attend church every Sunday.

    Another thought to consider: when a medical doctor treat you or when you go to find out why your car is not operating smoothly, you go to a mechanic. Both will ask you some question, then used whatever tools and test they have available to determine what needs to be addressed. That is what the DSM does. It is broken down into different categories, such as learning, speech, and hearing difficulties, thoughts and mood disorders, sexual dysfunctions, addictions, dementia, and such. Some people have chemical imbalances and must have medication to keep them from harming themselves, as well as to function to do the simplest of task, particularly when being severely depressed. Based of the set of symptoms or criteria report, observed, and measured, a diagnosis is able to be made.

    Now for the modaltiy of treatment, that’s where most people have the difficulty in squaring that with their Christian values and belief. Rightly so, but that does not mean that all people are automatically placed on medication, nor does it mean they have to be treated with a modality that is unacceptable or conflict with their faith. At the same time, most people do not understand that if you see a Psychiatrist, then they will be assessed and monitor for medication management. It’s my opinion that not only is there an overuse of providing this to the patient or client, but its also reinforcing the “quick fix” that our society has become accustomed to in solving their problems. But by no means does this mean that there is never a good reason to be prescribed medication, especially in most case for a short term while also enabling them to be able to participate in talk therapy, if you will.

    Permit me to repeat myself, I firmy believe that it is the issue of the heart that must be address in order to enable the person to heal and to lead a healthier and more productive life. In developing a support system, I would hope that the church would be able to be available to this person as they walk this path with their therapist to come to grips with whatever may be holding them back or as scripture tells — in bondage to the demons that have hurt, harm, and held them back from being free.

    As the scripture tells us, Hannah, it is not flesh and blood that we war against but the prince and principalities of darkness. The DSM helps to categorize and to provide a label that describes the symptoms that is prevalent to such a diagnosis. Just as if you had a diagnosis of cancer, or the flu, or a broken limb. Or when getting your car repaired, you find out that its the transmission and not the radiator, or its the rack and pinion and not a leak in the hose instead that needs to be replace. Diagnosis serves the therapist and the client in understanding what is working and what needs to be addressed.

    That’s all.

    Please grant me grace on the typos and tenses. I’m tired and I am a hearing impaired person who does not hear the endings on words, so miss putting them in when writing. 🙂

  27. A couple more thoughts on this topic.

    Not all therapist are train to treat the same problems. Just like the mechanic or medical doctor, they may not be trained in a certain area of their profession. So may missed the diagnosis and the client, customer, or patient may need to be persistent in getting their problem resolved.

    At the same time, there is a huge, and I mean huge problem with people going to one therapist after another, just like they go to one clinic after or another or even just to their family physican, to get narcotics for pain, or inability to sleep or feeling sluggish. But in reality what they have done is look up the symptoms and then falsely reported them in order to get high or loaded.

    Saying that the DSM is primarily used for the purpose of the pharmaceutical companies is a gross error . The pharmaceutical company is far more connected with the medical community, than it is with the mental health community. Think about how often we hear of a mental health provider is being taken to court and losing their license for over prescribing. That is because they are not abiding with the DSM and providing the correct treatment. They are bypassing the treatment and going for the quick fix instead. And that’s is unethical and very irresponsible.

    I am sorry that you decided to leave the counseling profession. We need more Christian counselors in the field. If nothing else, but to combat the over utilization of drugs.

  28. Linda,

    I never stated that I am a counselor.
    I understand your position, however the DSM cannot be compared to a medical diagnosis such as cancer, as the example you gave.
    You can’t label someone from a subjective point of view.
    You mention an MRI. If it has been determinded that you have a brain tumor, that will show up on an MRI.
    If you council someone and you determine they are a “narcissist”, that is a subjective finding, not an objective finding such as an MRI would reveal.
    What we have are people giving patients a diagnosis based on their own opinion of what is wrong with the patient. And that is based on what? Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung?
    And why from 100 diagnoses to 1,000 on 50 years? Are there more mental “diseases”.?
    The DSM is a way to get coverage for the visit, but it is not at all similar to a true medical diagnosis.

  29. Hannah,

    As I review your comments again, I’m thinking that you brought a variety of arguments to invalidate the usage of the DSM. All of them were connected with the over utilization of medicating a person for emotional and mental disorders or diagnosis. One other statement you made had to do with calling someone a narcissist and then repented of having done so. If you are not trained in this area to recognize the symptoms, then it can be wrongly attached or ascribed to a person’s personality. Just as if someone carelessly or called you a liar or a thief.

    The DSM is a roadmap to be used by trained clinicians to provide treatment to increase the functional level of a person, the relationship, or abilty to make good decisions. Placing or recommending that the person be prescribed medication is not an automatic and should not be considered if other alternatives are available. I find myself strugglijg with my words right now as I very much want to get the point across that the pharmaceutical companies did not come up with the DSM, but rather, used the DSM to created medications that would relieve the patient or client of many symptoms experienced such as tremors, hallucinations, anxiety, depression, delusions, bed wetting, obsessive compulsive behaviors and thought, and attention deficits and social phobias. Not as a permanent fix, but as a way of stabilizing the person to be able to work through their issues, to reduce their impulsiveness, anger, nightmares and so many other things that literally paralyzes them from functioning well enough to work and be a part of society. Unfortunately, what was meant as a tool to enable the therapist to work more expediently with the client, has been turned into a convenience store skipping the hard work it takes to resolve them. Therapy can be expensive and time consuming and people would rather be on drugs or have their loved ones on drugs, which includes the usage of alcohol as well.

    You say that you take great issue with diagnosis such as the Personality Disorder because it is used from what I think I undetand you to mean to excuse one’s behavior rather than to call it sin as God does. Believe me, when it comes to a Narisisist, Sociopath, or Antisocial person, there is little room in excusing their behavior. But it does enable us to identifiy them and try to work with what we can in curbing the behavior that brings so much destruction upon their love ones and society at large. that is,if we can keep them in therapy which statistically speaking is rare. We do not exuse their behavior, but we do seek to understand it and to help those who are being victimized by them to protect themselves and to heal from the harm done.

    As for ADHD children, I agree that many children who are or were diagnosed are misdiagnosed for one simple reason. Not all therapist are trained in addiction or domestic violence. So when doing an assessment they are not asking the question to find out if one or both parents drink, are depressed , or misusing medication or illegal drugs. Believe me, if this is taking place in the home, the child is being exposed to a reality steeped influence by these substance and conditions. Nothing is stable and things can change one moment to another. Thus setting up a very chaotic enviroment that cabe either to rigid or too loose for the child to be able to focus adequately. But since the child is having difficulty, he or she is often what is referred to as the identify patient or in the parents mind (the problem). Should any child that is truely ADHD be medicated, I wish I could say, no, but being this is not one of my area of expertise, I would be shooting from the hip and taking the risk of putting my foot in my mouth. I can speak from the perspective of what I already have stated relating to addiction and the home environment it sets up for the child. This includes the 7 types of sexual addiction and eating dsorders as well.

    As for the number of diagnosis growing from where it began, it is like any other form of science as we find better ways of observing and treating the client. Scriptully speaking, it sort of like the baby Christian that thinks all there is to being saved is to go to church, read your Bible, and be nice to each other. But as he or she takes in the Word, their knowledge and awareness becomes enlarged to find out that, hey, wait a minute, there iare such things as doctrines, and not all sins are alike after all, and yeah, what I had believe about this or that, turn out to be a bit off, and each time I need to regroup, and perhaps changed my view towards what it mean to be saved and to repent. Back to square one, okay—

    The field of psychology is like anything else, it is constatnly changing because information is more readily available particularly due to our mode of communication and the stigma of getting clinical help is being broken down. Hannah, there is a huge cosensus among my colleagues about the over usage of medication. We don’t like it any more than you do and we are doing what we can to address this. Sometimes, the wheels turn slowly, but at least they are turning. One of the biggest changes in the field of psychology is the recognition of the need for humans to develop their faith. Granted, most refer to it as a sense of “spirituality,” for political reasons, but that’s where my faith comes in, trusting that God will direct that person and provide the opportunity just as He has since the beginning of human history to woo them to Him.

    Remember we don’t being anyone to Christ, we just bear witness in the many ways that God’s Word has given us to do in the form of word and or by deed. The rest lies soley upon the Holy Spirit.

    I’m really tired now and seeing double—-hope this helps in some way that is beneficial to you and others. Shalom, in Jesus the Risen King Lion of Judah.

  30. Hannah,

    Sorry, misread your comment thinking you stated you had been a counselor.

    Okay, in your mind an MRI provide concrete evidence showing a tumor. That’s fair.

    But what led the doctor to ordering that test? Symptoms such as a headache, or double vision, or sudden anger outburst reported by the patient right? All subjective experiences, but never the less something run test to find out if it could be a brain tumor.

    Now if a animal was crossing the road, and it had two web feet, and it had two wings, and it quacked, what would most people call it? A duck, right?

    Okay, now if a person is exhibiting certain behaviors and it is corroborated by others then you can take that set of behavior and rule out diagnosis by doing a therough assessment and run other tests, includijg medical test to rule some more, the come up with a DSM diagnosis that is on the mark.

    If a person is lying, he may be able to twist that lie into whatever he might want it to be, but the facts are th facts and even if no one wants to believe the truth, it does not change the fact that this person is lying therefore, he is a liar.

    I have a hunch that this is more personal to you than academic. Have you been injured as a result of being mislabled or labeled, then stigmatized?

  31. Wow – I have to say, that I am amazed by people like you who are able to live through this kind of abuse and still see ‘the forest for the trees’ – that is, by the grace of God, you are able to see things for what they are despite being so close to the situation that you might have otherwise been blind to why/what was happening because as you said, you were very much manipulated for many years. Such is power of the truth: that despite being saturated in such a horrible situation, and despite attempts by perps to make you think this is ‘normal’ and that you just need to accept your role in their sick life, that you are actually able to identify what is actually going on and that it is wrong! We need people like you to speak out. It is truly sick what money and power does to people, and worse, what it does to people who are supposed to be servants of God and shepherds of His people…

  32. I once heard a good addictions therapist, a well-trained professional, say, “There are two kinds of people in the world: those who are in 12-Step Programs and those who ought to be.” Having been raised in a home with a mentally ill mother who was emotionally abusive, I can attest to the fact that many so-called “religious” people ought to be in AA or NA or Al-Anon, or OA or CODA or some such group to confront their own character defects and begin to do something about them in an honest and objective way. This never happens in the institutional churches because the clergy defame the 12-Step Programs even though they know very little about their effectiveness. Because so many in the clergy class think they are always right and have God on their side, they will never recover from their addiction to power and their personality disorders. They are in total denial, and in the end denial will destroy them. Had Alex’s father gone to N.A. when he first felt any inclination to serve in ministry, he might have recovered from his dysfunctions and gone on to live a good life. Too late now.

  33. I as well as my friends appeared to be examining the nice pointers found on the blog then the sudden came up with a terrible suspicion I never expressed respect to the web site owner for them. All of the young boys appeared to be as a result glad to read through all of them and have seriously been having fun with them. Thank you for actually being quite accommodating as well as for figuring out this sort of incredible ideas most people are really wanting to know about. My very own sincere apologies for not expressing gratitude to you earlier.

  34. Alex,
    I met your brother many years ago at Tumbleweeds in Stillwater when he was visiting the campus in 1993. I never knew what happened to him after that night. I had left OSU the following semester not realizing he actually went on to sign and play for them. It was a random search for “whatever happened to….” that led me to you and your brother’s stories. After my intial search I was rather glad to see Geoff had went on to play in the NFL but then I begin to read on further other internet articles that were linked to Geoff’s name and realized that Bob Grenier was actually Geoff’s step dad. This whole story has hit home for me. My mother was sexually abused by her own father as a child and I am here to say that this abuse didn’t just affect my mother. Sexual abuse of a child is the “gift” that keeps on giving! As a result of the trauma from this abuse my mother spent many years attempting suicide and in and out of mental health hospitals. This severely affected her ability to have a normal relationship with my dad or be a nuturing mother. My sister and I had to be grown ups from a very young age. She was diagnosed as bipolar when I was very young but she never really came to terms with her own sexual abuse until I was 18 and my sister was 21. She had actually blocked it out until a very keen therapist pushed an incest survivors book across the table at her in a counseling session. Unfortunately this was too late for us as her children. The damage had already been done. My sister, father, and I had suffered years of mental abuse, manipulation, threats, constant moving, chaos, lying, cheating, and just episode after episode of mania usually envolving cops or suicide attempts. All the while not understanding what was driving the insane train behind her actions. My parents divorced for the final time when I was 18. It wasn’t until my late 20’s that I realized this was a pattern for many incest survivors or victims of childhood sexual abuse. My sister, father, and I also paid the price for the pain and suffering that was inflicted on my mother. What your step father has done not only affects YOU and YOUR brothers, but your loved ones as well. I am sooooo proud of you all for having the courage to speak up and CALL OUT your predator!

  35. Well, one thing is for sure… according to Jesus Christ, if you do not forgive those that have sinned against you, God will not forgive your sins.

    So, unless you actually want to burn in heLL for all of eternity… you might want to go ahead and forgive these folks at your very earliest convenience!

    The choice is yours and God will allow you to go either way… He’s waiting on you, so the ball is in your court.

  36. I am crying reading ut, im sorry for you have gone thriugh and your brothers and mom. But I encourage you and your brothers to spread this and the abuse you have gone , dont be afraid God is on your side and telling the truth is what God wants you to do, that is your mission to stop this cruel ty and for 8thers to open their eyes to reality.

    ask for a human rights lawyer on commission on human rights or aomething. You can go tocatholic church too coz mostly they have contacts for human rights offices.

    stay strong and God will keep you and your brothers safe.

  37. I knew your brother in college and my heart is broken to read about his/your family. I understand all too well how it feels to be abused by someone that is touted as a legend or a man of great integrity, while they know nothing about what the “legend” is like behind closed doors. I cannot imagine what Jesus thinks of men who use His name to justify abuse. My prayers are with you all.

  38. James, I FULLY agree that believers MUST forgive.
    To fully forgive requires a work of the Holy Spirit….
    and I encourage EVERY victim on this site to FULLY FORGIVE.

    HOWEVER….. this forgiveness that God’s Word requires has been used by abusers and agents of abusers to manipulate the victims into SHUTTING UP.
    It is very simple minded to think that a victim must not do anything to stop the abuse… and thereby indirectly assist in the the piling up of more victims.
    A person can forgive… and remain in a forgiving state…. but still warn others of the danger or turn the perp over to the authorities.

    Take note James:
    Some have come on here from the Shiloh Days of John Higgins and are surprised to hear the abuse train is still rushing down the tracks.
    One thing I learned from my experience with JH and CC is how shills (yes… I used that word) move and manipulate dialogue.
    I watched one of the best operate in this skill set…… and if you care to… you too can find and watch and learn from some of these the extraordinarily skillful shills in the CC pulpits.
    (Not all are pastors…. some are visiting speakers.)

    I have to be a little suspicious of YOUR motives James when you write:
    “So, unless you actually want to burn in heLL for all of eternity… you might want to go ahead and forgive these folks at your very earliest convenience!”

    So James…. is it your goal to direct VICTIMS toward healing…. or SHUT THEM UP?

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