Sep 272011
 

Thanks to Gustavo Arellano of OC Weekly for covering the blog and our story.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2011/09/adam_grenier_calvary_chapel_abuse.php

 Posted by at 1:28 pm

  322 Responses to “OC Weekly covers Calvary Chapel Abuse / meeting with Chuck Smith”

  1. Oh Oh… It may have been a good idea to at least respond within the 2 weeks that were promised. For the record, Dave Rolph is a man of God who did nothing wrong. Dave is not responsible for Chuck or Chuck’s atty.

  2. I just posted the link to my Facebook wall. There are several people on my friend’s list who still think “Papa Chuck” can do no wrong.

  3. Re: Covered

    I haven’t read on here where anyone has insinuated where they thought that Dave is responsible for what Chuck did. Chuck’s attorney isn’t even responsible.

    But when Dave claimed ignorance of “affiliation,” according to Alex, ….

    Or when Dave told Alex he was wrong for not waiting longer after the agreed 2 week period ended with silence from Chuck Smith, before going public ….

    You sure those things weren’t wrong? Or at least, unwise? If not flat out lying and blame-shifting? I just haven’t heard any actually deal with these issues mentioned, only that people keep saying he did no wrong and is a nice guy, which I’m sure he is.

  4. I was wondering why there are 96 guests on this blog.
    If you look at the 2nd comment it really gives an indictation of how the world will view this.
    Is this a local newspaper?
    The only correction I woudl make is that the majority of the people here (myself included) don’t have a problem per se with “Chuck”. It is the problem of the Moses Model of leadership, of which Mr. Smith is the head. Too bad that wasn’t mentioned.

    I wonder if Fox would be interested in this story.
    Maybe we can all e-mail it to them. Theres power in numbers.

  5. Interesting article. Short, sweet, and to the point. Thanks, Gustavo!

    Have to admit, the snarky factor makes it more fun to read.

  6. Did you notice the caption under Mr. Smith’s photo?

  7. Re: Hannah

    I have a problem with any leader of a movement, or business, who won’t deal expediently with an allegation of child abuse, molestation, church abuse, etc…

    3 brothers agree that their father, a Calvary Chapel Pastor (Bob Grenier of CC Visalia, California,) abused them over years and one son alleges molestation (along with a host of other allegations by many others in his church whom Bob has spiritually abused.) Yet, Chuck Smith would not even hear their case or return Alex’s attempt to contact him. The men around Chuck, whom he has placed there to help run the ship, also stonewalled, Alex for years.

    This is the same Chuck Smith who denied 2 weeks ago (according to Alex,) in their meeting, that he knew anything about any “affiliation” in Calvary Chapel. We all know that’s totally bogus, so we are left to assume it was so he could protect his “business” and the $150 million he’s being sued for by young men who were molested by someone Chuck Smith (ultimately) and his organization, allowed to continue to be around these guys when they were younger, even after they knew he had a problem and had been caught previously.

    Or the Chuck Smith who told Alex to remain silent for 2 weeks, in terms of his speaking publicly about their meeting, and he would take that time to consider what he would do, insinuating somehow that he might influence Bob to withdraw from Calvary Chapel. Yet, after two weeks, after years of begging Chuck Smith to meet and do something, Chuck let the two weeks pass and gave Alex total silence. Deafening silence … (cricket, cricket, cricket …)

    This is the Chuck Smith with whom I have a problem. The buck has to stop with him.

  8. “Grenier’s blog is so explosive that Smith took the extraordinary measure of arranging a meeting with him earlier this month, one to which Grenier was asked to keep quiet for two weeks until they figured out what to do with him”

    I guess it’s just too hard and is taking too much time to “figure out” what to do with Alex…

  9. I am in possession of:

    “MUTUAL SETTLEMENT AND RELEASE
    This is a MUTUAL SETTLEMENT AND RELEASE (hereinafter
    referred to as AGREEMENT), is entered into this ___, day of
    March 2007, between the various parties hereinafter identified.
    PARTIES
    The parties to this AGREEMENT included the following
    entities and/or individuals in their various capacities as pled:
    (1) MICHAEL KESTLER; NORA KESTLER; FRANK WALKER;
    MIKE STOCKLIN; CALVARY CHAPEL TWIN FALLS;
    CHRISTIAN BROADCASTING OF IDAHO (hereinafter
    referred collectively as the “KESTLER
    PARTIES”, unless individually mentioned
    otherwise), their respective spouses,
    children, heirs, executors, administrators,
    partners, divisions, officers, directors,
    shareholders, agents, representatives,
    attorneys, accountants/CPA’s, employees,
    owners, successors, corporations, parent or
    subsidiary companies, churches, ministries,
    businesses, assigns and others who might be
    responsible for their conduct;
    and
    SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT 1
    (2) JEFF SMITH; CHARLES SMITH; THE WORD FOR
    TODAY; and CSN INTERNATIONAL (hereinafter
    referred to as the “SMITH PARTIES”, unless
    individually mentioned otherwise), their
    respective spouses, children, heirs,
    executors, administrators, partners,
    divisions, officers, directors,
    shareholders, agents, representatives,
    attorneys, accountants/CPA’s, employees,
    owners, successors, corporations, parent or
    subsidiary companies, churches, ministries
    businesses, assigns and others who might be
    responsible for their conduct.
    This is AGREEMENT also is intended to unilaterally RELEASE
    other individuals and/or entities, though unnamed in any pending
    litigation between the KESTLER PARTIES and SMITH PARTIES; but
    otherwise associated, related, controlled by, operated by, or in
    any other way affiliated, whether directly or indirectly, with
    either the KESTLER PARTIES and/or SMITH PARTIES, and include but
    are not limited to, CALVARY CHAPEL COSTA MESA, CALVARY CHAPEL
    OUTREACH FELLOWSHIP, PENFOLD COMMUNICATIONS, HOPE FOR THE
    CHILDREN, LIVING PROOF; KESTLER SIDE: EIS (stands for what) ANY
    OTHERS THAT KESTLER WANTS RELEASED?… and their respective
    heirs, executors, administrators, partners, divisions, officers,
    SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT 2
    directors, shareholders, agents, representatives, attorneys,
    accountants/CPA’s, employees, owners, successors, corporations,
    parent or subsidiary companies, churches, ministries,
    businesses, assigns and others who might be responsible for
    their conduct (hereinafter referred to as “UNNAMED PARTIES”).
    SUBJECT MATTER
    This AGREEMENT is in reference to the facts and allegations
    contained in the Complaints, Cross-Complaints and/or Counter-
    Complaints currently pending as follows:
    (1) The California Superior Court, County of Orange, Case
    Number #06CC03054 (KESTLER v. CSN INTERNATIONAL; THE WORD FOR
    TODAY; and JEFF SMITH; and related Cross-Complaint against, MIKE
    KESTLER, NORA KESTLER, FRANK WALKER, CALVARY CHAPEL TWIN FALLS,
    CHRISTIAN BROADCASTING OF IDAHO and MIKE STOCKLIN)[hereinafter
    referred to as the “CALIFORNIA LITIGATION”]; and
    (2) The Twin Falls County District Court, State of Idaho,
    Case Number #CV-06-413 (THE WORD FOR TODAY V. CALVARY CHAPEL
    TWIN FALLS, and related Counter/Cross-Complaint against, CSN
    INTERNATIONAL, THE WORD FOR TODAY, JEFFREY SMITH and CHARLES
    SMITH) [hereinafter referred to as the “IDAHO LITIGATION (1)”];
    and
    SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT 3
    (3) The United States District Court of Idaho, Case Number
    #07-109 (MICHAEL KESTLER V. CHARLES SMITH), [hereinafter
    referred to as the “IDAHO LITIGATION (2)”].”

    The details are very interesting.

    Apparently Chuck “CAN” Yank a Dove, as he did Yank Kestler’s Dove through this action.

  10. Grateful-

    It is good that you are filling in the pieces of this puzzle for those who don’t have the whole story, who may be reading this blog for the first time after seeing that article.

    So, there has been no call to Alex?
    It is 4 days over the 2 weeks.
    I can’t imagine what is in the works.
    Has to be something….they can’t just keep ignoring him, can they?

  11. I will be scanning and posting each page of the Agreement where Chuck Yanked Kestler’s Dove in 2007.

  12. I’d like to WELCOME all our wonderful visitors from the OC Weekly!

    Get yourself a cup of coffee, settle into a comfy chair, and enjoy the read.

    We are a motley bunch. We come from differing backgrounds, have different opinions, different theologies in some cases, and vastly different ways of dealing with our Calvary Chapel experiences. But the one thing in which we are unified is that Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia, California, and father (step-father to two of the boys now men,) is disqualified from ministry based on the testimony of 3 of his grown sons, corroborated by others. (There’s even smoking gun evidence.)

    After years of stonewalling Alex Grenier in his plea for a hearing about he and his brothers’ allegations, Chuck Smith finally relented and met with Alex 2 weeks ago. In that meeting he said he believed Alex and his brothers based on the evidence he saw. They agreed to give Chuck Smith 2 weeks to figure out what he was going to do. The deadline came and went without a single word, to this day, from Chuck Smith. Deafening silence.

    Beside the Grenier Brothers, there’s mountains of testimonies from former church members of Bob Grenier’s church that attest to Bob’s lying, abusive behavior, financial improprieties, etc…. ad nauseaum.

    We all agree on Bob, Bob should not be a pastor in Calvary Chapel. People should be protected from Bob.

  13. Wow, you have actual physical evidence of Chuck yanking a dove! And he yanked it for moral/biblical reasons in this cases, didn’t he? (as opposed to theological reasons)

    (For our visitors: “Yanking a Dove” is slang for removing a Calvary Chapel Pastor from affiliation/fellowship with Calvary Chapel, of whom Chuck Smith is the leader.

    Just in case you don’t know …

    Chuck Smith is the founder of Calvary Chapel
    He’s the pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa
    He’s the president of the CCOF = Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship,
    through whom men must apply to become affiliated with Calvary Chapel/Chuck Smith/Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa

  14. Wow! That copy of the settlement and release is SO new and explosive, just kidding :-)

  15. Scooter, it’s not that it’s new and explosive. It’s the fact that it clearly shows that Chuck Smith is a big fat liar.

  16. I have seen Gustavo on T.V, sunday mornings on one of those O.C. news type shows

  17. Yes, to many who knew Chuck is a liar, it’s not “new” or “explosive”.

    To many who believe Chuck Smith is nearly God and put him on a pedestal, it’s news to them that Chuck doesn’t tell the truth sometimes.

  18. I think everyone here is missing the whole point of Alex posting this new thread. I think he was trying to illustrate that it was a good picture of Chuck IMHO.

  19. Alex: why have you changed your avatar? If you can do that, then I can change my name.

  20. Motel, LOL.

    I changed the pic b/c I listened to some advice from a friend telling me the other pic looked stupid. I don’t usually take that kind of advice and do what I want anyway, but my wife likes this pic, too…so I changed it back :smile:

  21. Alex, why don’t you just hire a high priced attorney and fight it out and court?

    Other than preaching to the choir, you’re really not going to get anywhere by continuing to call Chuck Smith (and those who love and respect him) a liar…

    In fact, the more you do it, the more he and those who are connected to him are just going to dig in.

    Let the attorney pipeline begin to flow with $300 to $500 an hour costs. They love it, helps to make those sporty BMW payments they drive around.

    The court of public opinion via a blog is having no real effect. Just ask Doug & Michael.

    However, I suspect he’s got a lot more in his bank account to fight it out then you do…

    Of course, I say this in the humblest of opinions ;-)

  22. Motel, I think you should pretend you’re Bob Grenier and use the airline miles you got from spending Jesus’s money and upgrade your name to “Marriott” or “Four Seasons”…heck “St. Regis” works, too! ;-)

  23. P.S., I like your current avatar so much better. The other one just sorta creeped me out :)

  24. Sorry to disagree with you again, Scott. But the current one really creeps me out. Looks like a south park caricature.

  25. Scooter said, “Alex, why don’t you just hire a high priced attorney and fight it out and court?”

    I have Kelly Clark, but I’m not going to sue Chuck Smith or CCCM.

    “Other than preaching to the choir, you’re really not going to get anywhere by continuing to call Chuck Smith (and those who love and respect him) a liar…”

    Sure I am.

    “In fact, the more you do it, the more he and those who are connected to him are just going to dig in.”

    Maybe, maybe not.

    “The court of public opinion via a blog is having no real effect. Just ask Doug & Michael.”

    Actually it’s making quite a difference and creating a lot of awareness. 600,000 plus hits and counting and more emails than I can read. The info just keeps pouring into the ‘Refuse Collector’ and the info is being gleaned by attorneys in other cases.

    “However, I suspect he’s got a lot more in his bank account to fight it out then you do…”

    You can say that again :smile: Chuck’s got big bucks.

  26. “I changed the pic b/c I listened to some advice from a friend telling me the other pic looked stupid.”

    I hinted last week or so, glad you took the advice from someone else. :)
    You don’t want strangers thinking you are that guy.
    (whoever he is anyway)

  27. Re: Scooter said,

    “The court of public opinion via a blog is having no real effect. Just ask Doug & Michael.”

    Are you sure about that? My my vantage point, I beg to differ.

    Doug (if you mean Gilliand) posted how much his internet info has spread. And I for one, benefited greatly from his explanations. It gave me language to spread the news far and wide. Can’t tell you how many times we’ve shown his info to others … multiply that out several times …

    As for Michael, the PP is another animal with a different strategy and maybe even a different type of reader. For someone like me, the PP would not have been effective. He said he wants to influence one CC pastor at a time. I wish him the best, though I don’t know that I fully comprehend the feasibility of his strategy since he has to constantly straddle a thin line. Sometimes you just end up looking as if you are not taking a stand, even though you are putting out a lot of effort to try to. May God bless his efforts and empower whatever He wants to do in all this.

    It doesn’t matter much how far each individual gets, as one seems to be building on another. Doug got the ball rolling, I think. Then the PP turned a spotlight on that went viral. Alex’s blog was a spin-off (sort of a Paul/JohnMark situation) that links back to Doug’s material, again, among others.

    Now, there’s the media getting in on the action, with lawsuits and child abuse in the headlines. The ball may have taken effort to get rolling, but physics takes over after awhile.

  28. I loved the notion of a skinny guy going up against the giant. I just wished he pull his pants up to his waist. ;)

  29. Alex, you are obviously gonna do what you’re gonna do.

    However, I would contest that even though you have gotten all that traffic, it has had very little if any real effect on changing the culture at Calvary Chapel. Once again, just ask Michael Newnham.

    His traffic numbers in the past several years have dwarfed yours. The emails he receives on a daily basis has essentially buried him, broken him down physically and spiritually to the point he is on life-support emotionally.

    I hope the same thing doesn’t happen to you…

    The ground that he thought he had gained in bringing change to the movement, has effectively been wiped out out as CC Pastors who have interacted on his site are bailing now.

    Chuck Smith will be long gone before you are able to effect any change on that structure via this outlet. When he dies, it’s going to splinter into so many pieces, all this effort won’t matter that much anyways.

    I do hope in the end though that you can experience peace and resolution with your family. You deserve it.

  30. And with that, I will now not comment anymore of the subject here. This is your blog, and I’m sorry to have intruded and spoken so forcefully.

    I will however, take you up on that offer to have lunch with you and go shooting some day :)

    Scooter Jones,
    a.k.a., Scott

  31. Hannah wrote “The only correction I woudl make is that the majority of the people here (myself included) don’t have a problem per se with “Chuck”. It is the problem of the Moses Model of leadership, of which Mr. Smith is the head. ”

    Chuck Smith is the inventor of the system. He had a better idea (in his mind) than anyone who had gone before. He’d solve the problems with all other forms of church government and come up with one which fits his personality – one that gives him what he wants to have in a church – ultimate power.

  32. If Bob is removed by Chuck I think even worse stuff will come out. That is my feeling about why action has not been taken. The people protecting Bob are protecting him for a reason – fear of stuff about them being revealed that they confessed to him or asked his advice for. These would be the typical actions of a predator. That is the only explanation I can think of.

  33. Alex, what would progress be without naysayers?

    You/we all … are not responsible for the outcome, we are responsible to obey and warn the church. If you, or anyone else, thinks God wants them to do it through this vehicle, then God help them … and empower them. But God’s timing is up to him. The outcome is up to Him.

    Whatever we do in life is like a drop in the ocean. But we are still responsible to drop the drops God has given us to drop.

    Besides … this is far more feasible than influencing CC pastors.

  34. Alex, I’ll give Dave a pass when he said that CC had never taken legal action to pull the dove in this one. Maybe he just forgot or the issue of who owns the radio station assets was the real goal and pulling the branding was their way of differentiating the split assets after the lawsuit ended.

    If Kestler had kept using the CC name it would have been confusing to listeners.

  35. I should have written – correction – If Bob is removed by Chuck I think even worse stuff may come out. That is my feeling about why action has not been taken. As Chuck Smith agrees that felony child abuse took place. If people protecting Bob while knowing he is guilty, they are protecting him for a reason – fear of stuff about them being revealed that they confessed to him or asked his advice for. These would be the typical actions of a predator. That is one possible explanation that occurs to me that has not been mentioned here to my knowledge.

  36. Michael, So you are saying this might be blackmail? I could see that.

  37. Re: Michael

    Possibly.

    On the other hand, I watch people protect my last CC pastor and it appears it’s out of wanting to be in favor with him, or the need to feel important, or need to not be wrong. Clearly it is a lack of discernment. No truth in the world, no line of abused sheep, and no outright sin in front of them will dissuade them. Though he’s known as a bully around town with many wounded leaving bleeding and limping every week.

  38. I might have a PDF of the Kestler stuff.

  39. Scott (Scooter) said, “Alex, you are obviously gonna do what you’re gonna do.”

    Yes.

    “However, I would contest that even though you have gotten all that traffic, it has had very little if any real effect on changing the culture at Calvary Chapel. Once again, just ask Michael Newnham.”

    I’ve asked Michael, he agrees that change is difficult Systemically. However, change happens incrementally, one person at a time, and blowing man idols, System idols and myths out of the water is good. It puts the focus back on not a man and not a System. It’s humbling in a good way. Too much idolatry is never a good thing.

    When people make comments like, “I’ve know Chuck Smith or so-and-so from Calvary Chapel and they’ve never told a lie in the 30 years I’ve known them!” etc. That’s pretty bad. Sounds like the guys are perfect and don’t need Jesus, heck they haven’t lied once in 30 years, that’s impressive stuff! ;-)

    Plus, lawsuits bring change less incrementally, more in big chunks, and the information is helpful for others.

    “His traffic numbers in the past several years have dwarfed yours. The emails he receives on a daily basis has essentially buried him, broken him down physically and spiritually to the point he is on life-support emotionally.”

    That’s b/c he’s a wuss :smile: I thrive on conflict and controversy. Thanks for beating the crap out of me and tormenting for all those years Bob Grenier! It’s coming in handy for something.

    “I hope the same thing doesn’t happen to you…”

    It’s actually a very healthy outlet for me. Gives me something positive to work on. It’s actually something that is sometimes common in abuse victims, they become advocates against abusers and abusive situations.

    “Chuck Smith will be long gone before you are able to effect any change on that structure via this outlet. When he dies, it’s going to splinter into so many pieces, all this effort won’t matter that much anyways.”

    I think it’s helping, so do others, and it is a form of accountability. It stands as a good example for future Church Leaders of what not to do.

    “I do hope in the end though that you can experience peace and resolution with your family. You deserve it.”

    Thanks. I have peace with my family (wife and kids). The Bob situation, dunno if that will ever be reconciled, that’s up to him, but I can tell you he’s going to continue to be dealt with big time. It would be great if Chuck Smith and his attorney followed through on their promise to have my kids and I see my Mom in a mediation. But, unfortunately, I think that was a carrot that was conditional on me playing ball their way and not about doing the right thing regardless.

  40. Flashback to 2006:

    CALVARY CHAPEL OUTREACH FELLOWSHIPS
    3232 W. MacArthur Blvd.
    Santa Ana , CA 92704
    Fax: (714) 540-4160
    email: ccof2@calvarychapel.com
    MISSION STATEMENT
    The threefold mission of Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship (CCOF) is to serve Calvary Chapel fellowships; to maintain accountability; and to oversee the CCOF process of fellowship.

    First, we want to serve the fellowships by providing materials that will define the Calvary Chapel philosophy as described in Calvary Chapel Distinctives. These materials will be gathered from sources such as previous pastors conferences, books, pamphlets, and sermons given by Pastor Chuck as he outlines and defines the call and ministry of a pastor.

    The second major function of CCOF is how we would like to encourage accountability to God, to His Word, and to fellow pastors. Accountability is first to the pastor who ordained the applicant to minister. We will also look to our regional lead pastors located worldwide to maintain the relationship of personal accountability with the Calvary Chapel pastors located in their respective regions. We will be accountable to one another so as to avoid becoming an offense to our Lord, our fellowship of pastors, or to other Calvary Chapel fellowships.

    The third major function of CCOF will deal with the pastor’s application for fellowship with other Calvary churches. The pastor’s personal record will be kept in both the CCOF office and the regional pastor’s office. To become a new CCOF church, or when there is a change of the senior pastor, the application process must be followed by every senior pastor to remain a recognized Calvary Chapel.

    [deleted spiritualized stff at end]

  41. Scott (Scooter) you’re welcome any time. Don’t sweat it.

  42. Re: @ 40

    1. “Accountability is first to the pastor who ordained the applicant to minister.”
    WHO ORDAINED BOB?

    2. ” … also look to our regional lead pastors located worldwide to maintain the relationship of personal accountability with the Calvary Chapel pastors located in their respective regions.”
    THOSE DUDES HAVE BEEN DISBANDED, RIGHT?

    3. “We will be accountable to one another so as to avoid becoming an offense to our Lord, our fellowship of pastors, or to other Calvary Chapel fellowships.”
    WHO QUALIFIES AS “ONE ANOTHER”?

    What if no “One Another’s” step up to the plate?

  43. Alex, we don’t owe an explanation to those who ask “why bother” other than to point to Jesus, the One who snatched victory from apparent defeat.

    He was alone at the cross. All others fled. Glad He didn’t take the advice to just not bother.

  44. Good point Doug.

  45. Alex, I sent you some stuff.

  46. Grateful #42: Seems to me that “One Another” would include all Calvary Senior Pastors, whether they know the char-actor or not. If word came down to one of the “anothers”, then they would be responsible for taking accountability action. I suppose you don’t have to read this to get a dove…it is just after the fact?

  47. What do you suppose would happen if we sent a few local CC pastors a copy of this requesting they do their job?

  48. Grateful – absolutely nothing would happen.

  49. OR … their hearts would be pricked.

    Not saying they would then act …. just say’in it would be the mercy of God for them to begin the process of realizing they are guilty so they can deal with that at some point this side of the Bema seat judgment. Maybe?

    Then, it’s always nice when you get surprised, too.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

  50. Scooter wrote “The court of public opinion via a blog is having no real effect. Just ask Doug & Michael.”

    It is having an effect.

    So many of our hours a day are pointless and at best neutral toward God, but anytime someone stands with a victim of abuse they are standing with God. And if standing with God didn’t change another person, it did change me.

  51. Scott (Scooter):

    Ask Bob Grenier if it’s making a difference.

    He’s gone from $40,000 a week giving down to $8,000 in a week recently.

    He’s lost half “his” church attendance. He’s lost nearly all his staff and pastors.

    Chuck Smith seemed to think it was making a difference as well. He was pretty upset about the blog to the point they were calling it names, etc. And, they were giving me the hard-sell on “What’s next for you? What are you going to do now that you’ve accomplished your goal?” stuff etc.

    Oh, and ask the victims if they think it’s making a difference…

  52. Hello Grateful,

    Re: your #3. I assure you that I fully support, encourage and defend Alex and his efforts in making horrible atrocities known and corrected. With regards to Dave, I know him personally and feel that he is honest and above reproach. If he made a mistake in how he handled himself, I am confident that he will make it right.

    My counsel to Alex would be to remain focused on the shot caller, the one who is responsible, the one who can make changes and that is Chuck. To use any effort at this point in any direction other than Chuck is fruitless in my opinion.

    I just feel that Dave’s character is not an issue and from what I know about Dave, he is grieving over this whole situation.

    I’m not looking to ruffle any feathers here or to upset you Grateful, I just wanted to clarify my earlier post.

  53. Alex, okay, a little more then. My inference was that there was really no marked change on the structure of CC itself, not that your step-father hasn’t been effected.

    For every one person that has supposedly been rescued from the evil Moses Model structure, one thousand more have taken their place. Most of the folks who affiliate with Calvary Chapel do so because they love it.

    Calvary Chapel churches are being planted all over the world….Swaggart’s television ministry continues to grow, Ted Haggard is pastoring again and your favorite evangelist Todd Bentley (insert wink here) continues to rake it in, even after…

    If your step-father is wiped out financially, publicly humiliated and is forced out of ministry because of it, someone else will just crop up in his place. You may feel vindicated, however, the real root of the problem will not have been achieved, INMHO.

    Far be it from me to dissuade you from your crusade, however, this is how I genuinely see it.

  54. “For every one person that has supposedly been rescued from the evil Moses Model structure, one thousand more have taken their place”

    I haven’t seen this to be true at all. There are a few Calvary chapels within distance of where I am, and they’re all floundering with very few people, loss of people, and yet all the churches around are growing. I think the word is getting out that something is wrong at CC.

  55. Scott, I’m hearing the word “cult-like” used now by people who were in the System for decades who have come out of it.

    I made a career of advertising and marketing, I know how Brand Building works. Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith have controlled their message carefully, for a long time.

    As this snowballs more and more, this stuff spreads like a virus and grows more and more.

    There is bad stuff there…and it’s being exposed and that will continue and grow unless there is serious change and repentance.

    It will be a bad Brand and they’ll be paying out lots of money in the coming years from lawsuits as the information is made available to attorneys and awareness is created so that those who have been sexually or physically abused by a Calvary Chapel Pastor or agent/employ have the opportunity to seek justice.

    I don’t want a dime from Chuck or CC, I want them to tell the truth, deal with Bob Grenier and make some real changes.

    They probably won’t, to their detriment.

  56. Scott, I also am receiving lots of interesting information from the “Refuse Collector”.

    I can predict investigations into Calvary Chapel finances, etc. The State and Feds need money…and Calvary Chapel as a whole isn’t clean, not nearly. I think there will be quite a few getting a knock on the door in the coming year.

    There will be one large CC SoCal Pastor getting a knock on the door from the Justice Department I believe as well for some very illegal stuff.

  57. Covered, yes.

    This is about Chuck Smith and Bob Grenier.

    …and rejecting the Moses Model for anyone still employing it or buying into that garbage.

    And about CCCM and CC’s implementing common sense reforms to help protect kids.

  58. Why did the Dowds pay off Bob’s mortgage? Good friends?

    Why are the Dowds on the payroll for almost 40k a year for a few hours of work a week?

    Maybe paying back that “gift” Bob with a little laundering?

  59. Alex, in reality, after Chuck Smith’s passing, a natural attrition will take place. Usually does after the founder of movements like CC dies.

    I don’t doubt that people are leaving. People leave church organization and denominations all the time. I wonder how the Methodists church rolls are now compared to what they were 100 years ago ;-)

    As to the various misdeeds of a very small minority of leaders in the CC movement, what’s new? This kind of stuff has been going on in all church organizations for way longer than you or I have been around ;-)

    Can you point me to a single church group affiliation or denomination that hasn’t been touched by some sort of corruption?

    Heck, Jesus even let a complete crook carry his money bag around for him ;-)

  60. Scott – yeah – people usually let most things go cause we all make mistakes – until something is done that is just too gross to overlook, like what happened to Alex and his brothers. Lawsuits come it seems after there has been something really horrible done which just can’t be ignored.

    Doug G, Grateful, and Del Motel – you three are awesome! Thanks for all the posts.
    Doug – What is your web site? I would like to look at it.

  61. Grateful and Doug,

    Maybe I mistated my comment RE: Mr. Smith.
    What I meant was that I don’t know him personally, so the problem is not with him as the “person” (to me and others) it is the EFFECTS of his Moses Model on the many CC churches that others have attended and thus the faulty leadership model. I can’t have aproblem with someone I don’t know. But I can experience the effect of that person and the institution he created. Maybe that explains it better.

    It really upsets me to have such negativity from Scott.
    We have no way of knowing how many individul lives have been touched by PP and this blog. Maybe it will give others the courage to speak out against a system that has abused them. Alex is not letting up, bless his soul. His persistence…well, God is taking notice and he is a modern day Joshua. Not many like him. He is inspiring to me personally. and I am sure inspires others to not give up. I remember the times he wanted to, adn I am glad that there were those like Grateful and Wide Awake and Not Alone, who encouraged him to not give up, when others at PP were telling him to.

    We can’t forget Who is ultimately in control of all things. God.
    I think Alex may be a little bolder and obviously this situation is much closer to home that Michaels (If I can take that liberty) due to the fact that his own step father is a CC Pastor and he has endured extreme abuse, while probably wearing a false “church smile” every Sunday. If ther is anyone God can choose to fight this cause, it is Alex. We ought to be encouraging him, not discouraging him. Remember David and Goliath??

  62. Re: Covered @ 53

    I know you are very supportive of Alex.

    I’m not upset. I just like to deal with the actual issue and not whether someone respects him or thinks he’s nice. I wasn’t attacking Dave, just noting that what he did was wrong. Shifting blame from Chuck Smith to Alex is a typical CC wrong.

    Dave may have handled similar situations well 9 times out of 10, but what he did to Alex this time is still wrong. When people say I shouldn’t say he did wrong because he’s a “good guy,” it doesn’t make sense to me. He could have wings, but if this time he blamed Alex instead of Chuck Smith, he’s still wrong.

    I’m very glad so many admire and respect Rolph. But all I know is how he inappropriately blamed Alex and gave Chuck Smith a pass, in typical CC fashion. I simply noted it’s wrong, no matter how nice Dave is.

    Alex never loses focus. He said from the get go that Rolph was irrelevant to the outcome. He’s remained focused on Bob Grenier and Chuck Smith.

    Hope you don’t mind my desire to speak to the issues and not to reputations.

  63. David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied … today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air … and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel … it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”

    As Goliath moved in for the kill, David reached into his bag and slung one of his stones at Goliath’s head. Finding a hole in the armor, the stone sank into the giant’s forehead and he fell face down on the ground. David then took Goliath’s sword, killed him and then cut off his head. When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. So the Israelites pursued, chasing and killing them and plundering their camp.

  64. “Not many like him.”- I didn’t mean that people don’t like him.
    What I meant was that there are not many that are like him.
    Just wanted to clear that up.

    I hope my comments to Scott are not viewed as challenging.
    I just feel differently about Alex’s efforts and my prayer is that something good will come out of this.

  65. Re: Hannah

    Don’t mind Scott. He’s expressing his opinion and it just gives us chances to respond and show how we have a different perspective. It’s all an opportunity. Besides, it’s an open blog.

    Scott said, “As to the various misdeeds of a very small minority of leaders in the CC movement, what’s new? ”

    It doesn’t seem like a “small minority of leaders in CC?” In my state, I have info on almost every single CC and it’s not good. On this blog we’ve heard from abusive CC pastors in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland, Florida, California, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, Colorado, Illinois, South Carolina, Hawaii and Arizona that I can recall. Then there are lots of stories that roll in without identifying who they are. Doesn’t sound like a minority. I also know of many oversees. The ones in Europe have some pretty bad reputations, even amongst other groups reaching out over there.

  66. Thanks for the clear-up. Makes more sense now. :)

    David and Goliath is a good picture!

  67. Re: Sue @ 51

    Thanks. I wish I didn’t have this much time to blog.

    Someone asked if I have a back injury. No. But I was in a semi-coma for a couple months and have been taking time to recover. Trying to get my brain working and my fingers seem to flow better than my words. You wouldn’t notice it to talk with me, but I notice it.

    I’ve got some periods of time when I just have to stay put for a few days, and even when I’m okay, I have to take regular breaks throughout the day. I’m hopeful this season won’t be much longer and I can get back to work. In the meantime, this has been a good diversion for me, eye opening and healing.

  68. Scott to your 8:05pm.

    So what?

    Our Nation puts people in jail all the time, yet people still re-offend, do we throw up our hands and stop putting people in jail?

    “Hey California has a lot of re-offenders and law-breakers! Why do you want to hold people in Idaho accountable? There’s bad guys everywhere and you’ll never stop it all”.

    Bad reasoning there…

    You do the right thing where you can with the hand you’ve been dealt. I wasn’t abused by a Methodist pastor in a Methodist System and the Methodist Board didn’t cover up abuse and not look into it which would have save me and my bros. from more abuse etc.

  69. Scott said, “Can you point me to a single church group affiliation or denomination that hasn’t been touched by some sort of corruption?”

    So what?

    Can you point me to a single abuse that you’d “try” to stop, rather than being such a defeatist as if we’re to just rally for anarchy and let everyone have a free-for-all with no accountability and ignoring abuse and corruption b/c we can’t stop it “all”?

  70. Grateful-

    I asked about back injury.
    Coma…was it a stroke?
    Your memory is amazing and your words really flow.
    Praise God for your recovery!

  71. Scott, IMO, you’ve bought into some weird way of looking at abuse and corruption in the Church and probably Society (unless you’ve separated the two in your mind).

  72. Grateful sorry to hear about the semi-coma. Your brain seems to be working grate :)

  73. Grateful, wow. Glad to hear you’re mending. Your mind sure seems to have fully recovered in terms of processing information and communicating in written word. Glad you’ve been able to spend time here. We appreciate the support.

  74. Re: Not Alone @ 59 says,

    “Why did the Dowds pay off Bob’s mortgage? Good friends?
    Why are the Dowds on the payroll for almost 40k a year for a few hours of work a week?
    Maybe paying back that “gift” Bob with a little laundering?”

    Seriously? Maybe Alex won’t mind if I work for Bob?
    I do hope you figure this one out and let us know.
    I’d love to know what motivates a man like Bob to part with his cash like that?
    Or what motivates the Dowds to accept it?

  75. Scott said, “As to the various misdeeds of a very small minority of leaders in the CC movement, what’s new? ”

    It’s not a small minority. There are countless examples in every place where there are CC’s. I have been a part of many church systems, and only in CC have I seen one website/blog after another complaining about abuses. This website is just one of many places where CC is talked about in terms of habitual abuses. CC gets its own sections on websites about spiritual abuse and recovering from it, from cult watch groups, and others like it.

  76. Alex- Your first sentence> I couldn’t get it right and you said just what I was thinking.
    I was goign to say that a drop of poison in a healthy protein shake will kill you.
    It doesn’t matter if there is one or 2 or a hundred. It is like one cancer cell that spreads.

    I don’t understand the reasoning. I think we are becoming complacent. I am old enough to remember when things that happened shocked people. I also noticed that the church I went to didn’t seem to affected by anything unless they were involved. I think the fact that you were abused, as you say, you have become an advocte.
    I haven’t shared this (I don’t think) but I was abused by both my parents most of my childhood. Two very disturbed people who were spiritually lost. Many times I wanted to die . And then I trusted, and I was abused at church… especially after finding God well into my adult years…and to be let down, and treated the way we were as a family…..well, maybe I have that same drive as you do.

    None of us are perfect, but that doesn’t give us the excuse to sit back and let evil preail, without putting our all into it. As long as God is leading. We have to be very careful of that.

  77. A friend just told me that someone went into Obama’s fund raising event and starting yelling out that he is the “antiChrist”. A good example of what not to be as believers – embarrassing imo. I think it’s good to keep our cool as believers.

  78. Sorry about all the spelling errors. Need to call it a night.

    Grateful- Didn’t mean to pry but that sounded serious.

    Good night all. Sweet dreams

  79. Hannah, I am sorry to hear that. It is painful, no way around it and I know what you have felt and feel. It’s always there, it’s part of your life and it has an effect. Sin has consequences on the individual and the abused. The scars can dull, but they don’t go away.

    I am sure that’s partly what drives you to speak out (it is for me). It’s a healthy outlet to deal with the negative that’s always there, IMO.

  80. night Hannah :)

  81. Thanks, Hannah, Alex, Sue!

    It’s why I discovered I enjoy blogging right now. It’s less frustrating to find a word.

    In the past I’ve done speaking gigs, but the lag time between the thought and getting it out takes too long, so it makes me look like I’m not the sharpest pencil in the pouch, these days.

    I’ve been studying Not Alone’s succinct, no nonsense posts. That’s my goal. Right now, I just let lots of words fly to grease the ‘ole noggin.

    Besides, when I read and write about a topic I knew well before, it doesn’t wear me out, like new stuff does. So blogging here is a break from what others call “normal” life.

  82. Sue, that would be a FAIL.

    Besides, Obama can’t be the Anti-Christ, we’ve had 3.5 terrible years :smile:

  83. I’ll leave Scott to his own opinions..which I find faulty.

    Let me just say this – in 11 years of working for this man and knowing him as much as such experience would allow a fairly observant and intelligent person (no cracks, Alex or Max), I have never known him to meet with a person to discuss such issues, with a lawyer or otherwise. Now it may have happened without my being aware, but it was rare.

    What does that tell you? Now that does not mean this blog or the issues raised in it will change things as desired or cause Chuck to act at all, much less in a certain way, but to say it has no impact is flawed analysis. Chuck does not like attention, much less of this kind…especially from media. What that will produce is for the Lord to know.

  84. Yes Alex. I have had to forgive my parents because they really didn’t know any better and they were not loved themselves. I used to be locked in the bathroom when I wouldn’t eat my food. My dad would go on tirants and it was always walking on eggshells in the house. I cried all the time. I really can only remember 10 days of my childhood. I think I blocked it out of my mind because it was so painful. God never let any harm come to me. It was hard for me to be a mom and then God moved in when my kids were very small (1 and 3 yrs old) and saved me. He knew I needed Him. I can’t imagine how I would be without HIm. it took a long time because I didn’t have that model growing up of what love was.
    It seems that God has graced you with your family.
    The cycle of abuse ended with you. . PTL!

  85. Alex – :)

  86. Re: Hannah

    No, not a stroke. There are guesses, but no definitive diagnosis. Explaining what I do know is too complicated and not worth my breath. I’m just waiting till I get a short answer that I can give.

    Meanwhile, the docs are “practicing” on me. ;)

  87. Oh, Hannah, I can so relate. The “walking on eggshells” was a way of life. It was debilitating at times. It makes me cringe (and then I get angry) thinking about it (not knocking you at all for bringing it up, speak your mind and share your heart whenever you want, I’m just expressing myself).

    Unfortunately, I have a very good memory (great for School, bad for blocking out bad memories).

    My wife and kids have been a Godsend. Yes, the Cycle is broken. My kids are being raised in a VERY loving and patient home (too patient sometimes in my wife’s opinion, I am a bit of a softy with the discipline, can’t help it).

    My daughter is an angel, hardly gives us any trouble. My son, not so much, but the little stinker is so cute that he does naughty stuff and I have to fight the laughter (and my wife wants to wring my neck for not being serious :smile: ). What can I say, I love the kid and I err on the side of grace and patience, though I try to create proper responsible boundaries.

  88. Motel, thanks for sharing that insight.

    And, yes, you are at least the 4th or 5th most observant and intelligent Jewish Messianic lawyer I know :lol:

  89. Alex-

    Be prepared cause God is going to use you in a big way apart from this immediate situation.

    I am so happy to hear about your patience with your kids.
    Just the fact that you came out of what you did, and have the family you have, is really a testimony to God’s love.

    Gotta catch some ZZZ”s.
    nice chatting with y’all!

    Grateful–Will keep your health in prayer.By the way, that prayer request a few weeks ago…God still is a God of miracles! Healing….!! :)

  90. This blog has gathered many stories, quite similar, about abuse of some sort at the hands of a senior CC pastor. Many sharing on here have been severely hurt. Many of them have taken their hurt to the Lord and found healing over time. All still bear the wounds and scars. If you listen closely to the comments, you will hear in their voices a guarded hope that Jesus will restore their joy if he hasn’t already. There is very little vindictiveness, and very little desire for revenge. There is a faint glow of mercy and grace in their words. Yet, there is also an innocence that has been lost.

    Alex and his brothers may be the most visible victims on here at the moment but they represent the many. They know what it feels like to live in mortal fear as a child. They know the uncertainty of whether their father will smile at them or give them the back of his hand. They know the religious hypocrisy and false face of insecure men. They know the depths of despair, and the sense of being imprisoned within their own emotions. They know what loneliness feels like. They know what it is like to be powerless.

    Alex and the others have been oppressed long enough. They have been ignored long enough. They have been manipulated long enough. And they have been lied to long enough. Chuck Smith and Bob Grenier will never outlast the determination and will that is driving this group of justice seekers. They will never directly or indirectly hurt these people again, nor will they ever, from this day on, do their deeds in secret again.

  91. @ 46 Ron said,

    “Seems to me that “One Another” would include all Calvary Senior Pastors, whether they know the char-actor or not.”

    Good one, Ron!

    @ 42 I said,

    1. “Accountability is first to the pastor who ordained the applicant to minister.”
    WHO ORDAINED BOB?

    Anybody know?

  92. My daughter just called us to say she is engaged. How exciting. I hope they breed soon.

  93. G’nite Hannah, sleep well :smile: Echoing your prayers for Grateful.

    Wide Awake, excellent points. One thing you touched on: the “Refuse Collector” is empowering to victims of abuse (spiritual, physical, sexual, otherwise).

    I really like what you said here:

    “They will never directly or indirectly hurt these people again, nor will they ever, from this day on, do their deeds in secret again.”

    Yes. You’ve hit an Essence of this blog and its positive benefit.

    People have a voice and these guys won’t get away with it in secret again. They can continue to abuse, but they’ll be held to some sort of account and they will be opposed.

  94. Loud belly laugh at #89! :)

  95. Motel CONGRATS!

    Weddings are super fun!

    …and expensive Dad :smile:

  96. So true, Wide Awake!

  97. I don’t remember who ordained Bob, but it had to be John Higgins from Shiloh or Chuck Smith from CC. I think Paul might know.

  98. “And, yes, you are at least the 4th or 5th most observant and intelligent Jewish Messianic lawyer I know.” Alex

    Motel…you are the only observant and intelligent Jewish Messianic lawyer I know. That makes you Number One. BTW…I had locs and bagels once…does that make me a wanna-be?

  99. Congratulations, Del Motel!

    Hope you like the guy, ’cause he’s gonna be around for a long time!

  100. Re: Alex @ 98

    I don’t know the Shiloh history very well. Is that in any way related to CC?

    But even if not, would this man be interested in participating in holding Bob accountable? Or at least, revoking his ordination? or giving him the “what for”?

  101. Wide Awake

    It makes you intelligent (as much as a gentile can be) and it means you know a good thing when you taste it. But let me ask you one question, did the lox inspire you to instruct your kids to do their homework and be a good doctor or lawyer.

  102. Del Motel,

    There’s noth’in like a New York Jew, preferably a lawyer. You ALWAYS know where you stand. ;)

    2 out of 3 ain’t bad!

  103. Enjoyed the fun with you all!

    Have a good one!

  104. Oh, and thanks for the prayers. I really appreciate it! :)

  105. Shiloh came out of CC and the House of Miracles and the Jesus Movement. There is a strong connection and many of the Gen 1 (or 1st Gen) Chuckites are Shiloh Alumns.

  106. Motel

    Sort of. Medical and Entertainment. That is very close.

    It wasn’t so much the lox that did it but the capers…

  107. a quick story NY Jews. That was the name of a game show I conceived.

    3 NY jews and a game show host. the first round has the host asking them a question they could not possibly answer, but do since they are NY jews. all answer, but wrong, so onto second round.

    the second round consists of the host agan asking them questions, they couldn’t have the answer to, but points are awarded based upon which contestant interrupts the earliest into the host’s question with the wrong answer, since they are from NY.

    Thoughts.

  108. “Thoughts”

    Sounds like NY Italians :smile: (like my real Dad).

  109. Ouch…we have DNA from there…we always answer before the question is asked…

  110. Try it on your wife some time. Mine REALLY appreciates this.

  111. I have. That’s when she takes my coffee cup away.

  112. Motel…do you find blogging interferes with being a ‘stand up’ comic?

  113. out of practice….it is hard to keep up with all the comments….my comment is in response to a few comments made a day or two ago….

    it seems to me that a few seem to have a hard time with anyone from PP posting here…

    I can tell you without hesitation that jlo, erunner, nonnie and I have only pure motives for posting here…to offer you support and prayer….

    it was not our intention to cause more pain or aggravation….we each have been in prayer for Alex and his family for some time now and that has grown to include his extended family (this blog)…

  114. Alex, you seem to have a bit of renewed strength…good to see…I know you bag of your thick skin but I will continue to pray for God’s armor and shield about you..

    oh and THANK You for changing that picture….you don’t know how many times I wanted to tell you to put a shirt on. lol ;)

  115. love you dusty, hope all is well with you.

    yes, have been praying for Alex and his brothers well before this blog even came about.

    I understand the frustration that certain bloggers have expressed towards us that read and or post on pxp. What they don’t realize is that we have been dealing with this garbage for years (YEARS) , and have our own stories to tell.
    I am grateful that Alex has the fortitude to see this through, I personally do not, so the fact that Alex does just astounds me.

    It is my privilege and responsibility to pray for Alex and his brothers daily.

  116. Motel provided the most keen insight I’ve seen in a while – “Chuck does not like attention, much less of this kind…especially from media.”

    What does hyper-sensitivity to bad press indicate? Fear of exposure?

    Chuck must have had a cow when the press about cutting off of Chuck the Jr from CC came out in the press.

    He likes to work in darkness without any critics. And he mostly did, until the Internet came along.

    Why is he bothered? My guess is that he wants people to think he’s a good guy. That well developed mirage of humility that he maintains gets shown for what it is from time to time and he doesn’t like it.

  117. I hane frequented this blog and have read many of your posts- I feel sadness and grief over what many of you guys had to endure in your families and church. May the Lords peace be over you. I have not been through the abuse like you guys have, but my prayers are with you.

    Numbers 6:25-26
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    25 The LORD make His face shine upon you,
    And be gracious to you;

    26 The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,
    And give you peace.”

    One thing Alex, you are making a difference. I for one have (and my family) did not know about the Moses Model or the abuse that had been going on. We are from the South and now are leaving a CC- not because of the pastor (he has done nothing wrong and has been a great pastor). We decided to leave because we know that the Moses Model is not Biblical and yes, the abuse of the CCs has given us -well can I say the eebie jeebies.
    I have left many a church over different false beliefs so I guess I am a little gun shy to say the least. I have antennas that are high frequency radars for this kind of stuff.

    So I will have to say the more this stuff comes out it puts the reputation of the CC at a disadvantage. Unfortunately, Chuck Smith had to go this direction. But the real issue is that if churches today are runned by organizational conglomerates than yes! run for your spiritual lives and health and get to a church that is led by only one leader and Shepherd- Jesus Christ!

  118. Thanks, FG!

  119. Re: Dusty @ 114 said,

    “it seems to me that a few seem to have a hard time with anyone from PP posting here…”

    That’s a pretty broad brush. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, please allow me to explain it how I saw it.

    PxP told Alex, et al, to go to another blog and discuss all things CC related to his/our hearts content. While we were doing so, we were challenged by a PP poster to not discuss Rolph’s 2 wrong responses. One pushed back, basically saying, ‘What gives you the right to tell us not to talk about Rolph?’ (my interpretation.)

    Then a PP CC pastor (whom I think may have misunderstood the point of the post) harshly reprimanded the poster demanding an immediate apology, calling her post “Garbage.” It seemed like unnecessary roughness and some of us threw in caution flags calling it a foul.

    I think it would be appropriate for that poster, AV, to apologize.

  120. “After this, the Moabites and Ammonites with some of the Meunites came to
    make war on Jehoshaphat. Some men came and told Jehoshaphat, ‘A vast army is
    coming against you from Edom, from the other side of the Sea. It is already in En
    Gedi.’ Alarmed, Jehoshaphat inquired of the Lord, and he proclaimed a FAST for
    all Judah.” (2 Chron 20:1-3)

    Would anyone want to consider a group fast and prayer for one day.
    The Lord has been urging me about this.
    Jesus also said “When you fast”, not “If”

    I have seen God move in really amazing ways through fasting and prayer.

    Motel-
    Mazel Tov!!

    Will check in later in the day. Hope everyone has a blessed day in the Lord!

  121. Re: Dusty part 2

    ““it seems to me that a few seem to have a hard time with anyone from PP posting here…”

    The several from PP who asked us to stop discussing Rolph were free to give their reasons, but they did not make their case to me.

    Reasons given to not discuss Rolph:
    1. He’s nice
    2. I like him
    3. I’ve known him a long time
    4. I trust him
    5. He’s a man of good character
    6. He has a record of trying to help
    7. If he did something wrong, I believe he will make it right
    8. He’s above reproach
    9. and so on …

    None of these reasons are valid reasons to not take note that, once again, Alex has been stone-walled by Chuck Smith; and, once again, someone from CC (this time Rolph) blamed the victim (Alex) instead of the pastor (Chuck) who is the guilty one.

    Rolph’s “good character” assessment is irrelevant to his guilt in this situation. We were merely noting, with disappointment, that he played fast with the truth about affiliation and blamed shifted from Chuck to Alex about the deadline agreement. Nothing in the PP poster’s reasons for not discussing Rolph held water for me … and I suspect some others may agree with me.

    Anyone is free to come on here and make challenges, but they have to make their case with solid reasons and not just ’cause he’s a “good guy”. This is not a case where an appeal to his character changes the assessment. In other words, if Rolph steals from a bank today, then he has done something wrong. It may not be something that his life is characterized by, but noting his guilt is still valid. Noting disappointment, is still valid. His character plays a role in his sentencing, but not in determining if a wrong was committed.

    Many can’t see that Chuck Smith has done any wrongs because they give him a free pass because he’s nice; yet, he has done some wrongs that are worth noting.

    Many of us backed Hannah, who pushed back on the original poster. I know I did this, NOT because she’s a “cyber friend” or because I think she’s “nice,” or to protect “our own”, or because I have something against a PP poster; but because I thought she was right and the others were wrong.

  122. Re: Dusty part 3

    “I can tell you without hesitation that jlo, erunner, nonnie and I have only pure motives for posting here…to offer you support and prayer….

    it was not our intention to cause more pain or aggravation….we each have been in prayer for Alex and his family for some time now and that has grown to include his extended family (this blog)…”

    Thank you so much, Dusty. I think I can say, on behalf of all of us, Thank you!

    Hope my explanation is of help in understanding another perspective.

  123. Re: jlo @ 116
    “What they don’t realize is that we have been dealing with this garbage for years (YEARS) , and have our own stories to tell.”

    Who doesn’t understand that? I do. Many on here have posted or read PxP for some time and know. However, when I posted on PP, you all did not know I was CC abused. My point is that all we can deal with is someone’s words and ideas. If they are valid and make your case, then good. If any of us don’t make our case, our abuse background doesn’t make our point for us, or make our point more valid. The same goes for our titles, years in ministry, gender, age, how nice we are, etc, etc …

    Some pp posters have described how worn out they are because of years of carrying the flag, that’s fine. My hat’s off to you in respect for the tour of duty you’ve endured. But if some of us are not worn out, rather ready to suit up for our “tour of duty,” that’s fine, too. I don’t think the discouraging posts are helpful, but it is an open blog and in this forum people are free to state their opinions and we are free to openly disagree.

    If I had any negative response to a Pp poster, it would be my thinking that it’s unnecessary for some to come here and be a naysayer, telling Alex/us that it’s useless, hopeless, can’t be done, give up now, you’re wasting your time, etc… It comes across to me as either depression or actively trying to bring down Alex. But I can’t judge the motives and people are free to speak their mind.

    Thank you, jlo, for praying for Alex and this blog’s endeavor.

  124. Okay, bear with me … one more thought before I go:

    I, personally, do not decide whether or not I agree with someone based on who their friends are. I get an impression when I read Pxp posters, that that is part of their culture. That’s there prerogative, if I’ve even assessed that correctly? But when someone tells me to accept so and so’s point because they are “my friend,” I like them, they’ve been around for a long time, they have experience, they have a title, they have been abused, they are above reproach, yada … yada … yada … I don’t hear a single valid reason to do so.

    I’m judging the ideas expressed in this very limited 2-D poor method of communication based on the validity of the point, not based on relationships. This is the one of the glories of blogging, it’s the great equalizer. No matter who we are, how much experience or lack thereof matters not, we can all learn from each other, we just have to make our points. If we don’t, then we find out where we were wrong, or where we need to communicate better, or what the opposition to my view is, etc…

    Relationships may help us to overlook a snarky remark that may verge on harsh, or something along those lines; but to make a valid point, one must make their case … at least, eventually.

    (Gentle reader, this is not an emotional post. Just my take things.)

  125. Hannah, I will fast and pray with you. When?

  126. I think that is a fair observation re: Pxp. There is an ingrown groupthink there. It does puzzle me sometimes since it seems to conflict with and sit alongside a very uncompromising attitude toward truth and objectivity. Also do not miss the fact that after ripping each other to shreds all day on the blog at Pxp, everyone there including me would all be happy to sit down over coffee and laugh and hug, too. It is a more mature – I do not mean necessarily more spiritually mature, just more mature in terms of being a culture that has ripened and found itself – version of this also delightful site.

  127. 118 FG – I am grateful that you were not harmed by them. It takes years to recover, if you even do. I now look at churches and pastors as guilty until they prove otherwise. I use to be trusting, I’m not that way anymore. For now, I believe the man that pastors the church I attend is genuine and everything seems to be transparent. I will never attend another CC again, just because it isn’t a safe environment to worship under. And for the record, Chuck didn’t surprise me at all by doing nothing ….what would have surprised me is if he was honest and actually cared enough to do something. That’s one of the biggest problems I have is all the lying the pastors do. I thought pastors were supposed to be honest. Not perfect just honest.

  128. I have noted the point you make, Dansk. It’s a good one.

    I like how they extend olive branches and offer bandages after inflicting a flesh wound. It’s impressive.

    They have some wonderful points, though I have to say I’ve wondered if those points serve their stated strategy well, or not? Dunno? Just curious as to the answer?

    I entered their arena with the false notion that I could post as they posted, but that proved to be unwise. I was told to have thick skin, but with one comment I made, the thread was closed. Funny thing is they misunderstood my comment. But I never even had one chance to explain.

    The need to display my title, tout my years of experience, and prove my longtime established loyalty in the group first, and make the appropriate praises to show I’m taking my “position” (my impression, not a statement of fact,) before I could be heard and feel welcome to participate was more than I could do in a short time of posting. It makes it seem like a closed group, not an open blog. But no where can a new poster find the rules of their game so they know how to play.

    Seems like it goes like this. Unknowing poster shows up and makes a comment. Comment is either ignored, or someone responds with an attitude of, “Who are you? What right do you have to speak here?” (Again, I can’t prove this, I’m leaving plenty of room to be wrong on this … just saying it’s an impression that surely I’m not the only one who has it.)

    I found out quickly that I was not allowed to challenge a CC pastor’s viewpoint, because they are established, well-respected, and have years of experience. For these reasons I was warned to have respect. I didn’t think I was being disrespectful, just discussing the points made. My take on it was that to disagree or challenge was to be disrespectful. Seemed that some may have more of a pass than others.

    But the good point you make, Dansk, is duly noted! It’s wonderful to see people fellowship, even after they spent the day disagreeing. :)

  129. Hannah, I can’t fast, but pray … will do.

  130. I’ll join in on the day of prayer and fasting

  131. Greatful, you’re my new hero. You have a gift, you cut right through the mess and get right to the point of the matter, with heart and clarity.

  132. Grateful,

    thank you for your response.

    I have to say, that in reading them it would seem that our rolls have flipped…in that when I was at PP and you came in…the feelings you had then seems to be the feelings I now have coming here to CCA……and I know well the protective feeling over those I blogged with.

    Like you I would not and still won’t trust, believe or like someone just ‘cuz someone else told me it was ok…got me burned the few times I dared to try that. :(

  133. “PxP told Alex, et al, to go to another blog and discuss all things CC related to his/our hearts content. While we were doing so, we were challenged by a PP poster to not discuss Rolph’s 2 wrong responses. One pushed back, basically saying, ‘What gives you the right to tell us not to talk about Rolph?’ (my interpretation.)”

    Grateful, I did not say or even imply to not discuss Dave Rolph. My objection was to HOW he was being discussed. Yet you are fixated on the idea that because I consider Dave a friend, (though not a close one ) that undermines my concerns. Who wouldn’t seek to defend a friend if they thought they were being unfairly treated?

    I worked hard at trying to explain myself earlier and to smooth things over with Hannah I do mind if I feel I’m being misrepresented.

  134. Hey Alex,

    I’ve been reading a bit today and all I can say is that I agree with my friend Alan Hawkins in that the father has created a formidable foe in the son.

    I’m praying for you Dude!

    Phil

  135. I was listening to an old CD I have and was reminded of this very powerful song. Listened to it 5 times, and I went on Youtube and found this.
    PLEASE..everyone take 5 minutes.
    The music is reminiscent of the WW2 movies.
    For every abused and wounded soul.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf3O19aZWhc

  136. Pxp has been a wonderful haven for those bewildered by the subtle self-contradictions within evangelical Christianity, especially CC. The host has a true gift for ruthlessly shining the light on BS. I find it liberating (even more fun when I disagree with him!).

    However, in terms of “strategy”, it postures itself less and less as a crusader to bring about rapidly visible change in the church at large. Great job at the “strategy” of helping those who come there to change and at educating concerning the dynamics of unhealthy leadership. Not-so-great at getting flawed leaders to change or to seek new employment. And all of us who post there freely admit as much. So I am not sure a correct measure of the site is near-term “effectiveness” in that sense.

    The primary dragons slain there are the disillusionment, hurts, and gullibility within its participants and readers.

  137. Dusty, Tina,

    Great! How about Friday?
    Or tomorrow?
    I don’t do a water fast because of my low blood sugar, but I do a either lemonade and maple syrup fast(no, not the “masters cleanse”), sipping it throughout the day, or a vegetable juice fast..

    I don’t think our bodies can handle unloading all those toxins that didn’t exist in Jesus’ day :), and I think God understands some of our limitations.

    Let me know. If you want to extend it a few more days, I am up for it.

  138. Dansk, I think that’s a pretty fair assessment.

    I think Michael is being successful at what he defines a “success” for his situation, his vision.

    He helps a lot of people and he’s helped me a TON. In some ways I can’t express.

  139. Thanks Phil, I enjoy your podcasts.

    You are really good on air, fwiw.

  140. Grateful, you have made some interesting observations. Group Dynamics plays a big role in any blog community (or any Social Group/Peer Group, etc) for that matter.

    It’s part of our humanity. It’s a subject I’ve studied (Group Dynamics) and it still fascinates me.

  141. Tina said, “It takes years to recover, if you even do. I now look at churches and pastors as guilty until they prove otherwise. I use to be trusting, I’m not that way anymore.”

    Yep, that’s the fruit of Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia right there. I am very untrusting as well.

    Strangely, however, it made God more real to me and I’ve drawn closer to Him and I don’t allow men to define and regulate my Salvational Status any longer.

  142. FG said, “We decided to leave because we know that the Moses Model is not Biblical and yes, the abuse of the CCs has given us -well can I say the eebie jeebies.”

    AMEN! That is good fruit in my book. Tell others when you leave why you left. “Vote with your feet” as Chuck Smith says and then tell others “why” you left, that the Moses Model is wrong.

  143. Grateful – your post #129 expressed perfectly my experience at PxP when I’ve made comments. I’ve been largely ignored in the past, with the exception of Michael and 1 or 2 others. After I posted there about what happened to me at the CC I attended, I was called a liar, and (paraphrasing here) – “anyone can come on here and say they were abused and it doesn’t make it true”, and the same person told me they were personal friends with my old pastor and what a wonderful godly man he is…yada yada yada. Talk about feeling discounted.
    There may be wonderful, godly, caring people on that blog but my experience has been that they really aren’t open to accepting new people.

  144. BTW, I’ll be joining in on the prayer (no fasting due to low blood sugar) with you guys and gals.

  145. 125-Grateful

    “I’m judging the ideas expressed in this very limited 2-D poor method of communication based on the validity of the point, not based on relationships. This is the one of the glories of blogging, it’s the great equalizer. No matter who we are, how much experience or lack thereof matters not, we can all learn from each other, we just have to make our points. If we don’t, then we find out where we were wrong, or where we need to communicate better, or what the opposition to my view is, etc…”

    Your recent friendly cross-fire with several others has really nailed the blessings and limitations of blogging. I’m not sure but it seems to me that many in our day do not know how to conduct a vigorous argument without getting easily offended. This kind of discussion is best in a face to face setting because we are able to add body language that constitutes the largest part of communication. When blogging, we need to feel free to express our thoughts as honestly as possible. It doesn’t have to be thesaurus-checked or approach a certain intellectual level to be considered. It just needs to be expressed sincerely, and I hope, in a civil manner. Then as we read it, we need to take a bit of time to absorb it before we start indescriminately firing away. Have you noticed in many blogging sessions how often someone steps back and attempts to explain their intentions to clarify any misunderstandings? It happens often. So…we can learn to be more thoughtful and patient before jumping to conclusions.

    Most all the players in the web connected links that communicate on this issue have some valid and insightful points that help flesh out the story. I think the deepest intentions are to seek truth through honest communication. We are all flawed and severely limited in a forum like this. So walk a little more circumspectly and put yourself in the other person’s shoes before setting them up as a villian to be cut down.

  146. Tina said, “It takes years to recover, if you even do. I now look at churches and pastors as guilty until they prove otherwise. I use to be trusting, I’m not that way anymore.”

    Alex said, Strangely, however, it made God more real to me and I’ve drawn closer to Him and I don’t allow men to define and regulate my Salvational Status any longer.

    Guru says… My experience with cc, chuck smith and the man made hypocritical system called church has also stumbled my walk with the Lord… Hard to trust Him sometimes when His leaders are so corrupt and hide it so well…

  147. Hey Alex,

    Thanks for the compliment! FWIW I do support you I just wish things would have turned out differently. I wish that would have come out better!

    Off to bed I go :-)

    Phil

  148. I shared this on the OC Weekly, but wanted to share it here as well:

    “Christians” out there, we need to come clean and admit we’re sinners. I still sin, how about you? The “World” (I’m going to speak in Christianeze for awhile here, bear with me non-Christian friends) can’t see Jesus in us very often. What they do see is a bunch of hypocrites who try to act like after they’ve been “Saved” or “Born Again” that magically we become Jesus and we’re perfect and sinless from then on.

    Then we go around pointing out the World’s sin and hyper-focusing on certain sins over others, without removing the Logs out of our own eyes. This doesn’t facilitate “listening” to the Gospel message…it facilitates non-Christians pointing out what hypocrites we all are as we sin as much as everyone else (though we shouldn’t). We just reframe our sin better and hide it better or it changes from say drug use or fornication to something else, like scheming and lying and protecting bad pastors and the Church’s image, etc etc. Go re-read that Bible you’ve read a zillion times.

    Jesus loves sinners, He was the most Gracious to sinners (Woman at the Well a serial adulterer, Mary Magdalene a prostitute (though some scholars dispute that), Zacchaeus the tax collector, the adulteress who the Pharisees set up to trap Jesus, heck Jesus’s own Disciples…a reviled Tax Collector, some blue-collar salty and crude fishermen, etc. Interesting, though, no Lawyers…even Jesus has Standards! (Just kidding Kelly, Sheck, Eric :-)

    Now, Jesus wasn’t all Ghandi all the time. He kicked ass and took names, too. He laid into the Pharisees (the hypocritical Religious and Political leaders of His day) read Matthew 23: Jesus to them, “You SNAKES!” You HYPOCRITES! You BROOD OF VIPERS!” etc. Jesus also took a form of a whip and beat the crap out of the Money Changers in His Father’s Temple who were making money off of God. (Jesus, IMO, would be beating the crap out of guys like Benny Hinn and PTL today).

    We all have sinned, we all sin. My sin isn’t better or worse than anyone else’s and I have sinned and sin a lot. God wants all to be reconciled to Him. Jesus died for a reason and despited the extreme Skepticism of Atheism and Secular Humanism (I read Dawkins, Hawking, Hitchens, Sam Harris etc all the time) Jesus also rose from the dead. Doesn’t make sense. It was a literal miracle. I can’t “prove” it, but I know in my spirit my soul that “it” happened. Strict Empiricists reject the spiritual side of mankind, yet we all feel it, we all feel that tug, that sense that there is something more than what we see, taste, touch etc.

    What I’ve done that has helped me find peace: I pray to God and I ask Him for mercy on me a sinner and I ask Him to give me belief in His Son Jesus Christ as Messiah. I’ve experienced a saved marriage and I’ve been able to reverse the cycle of child abuse in my home, despite much baggage and hurt. I’m far from perfect, I can be a jerk, I can use language I probably shouldn’t, I have to fight against lust, etc etc. but I keep asking God for help and keep begging Him for mercy…and I’ve received help, whether it’s real or imagined. I have Faith that it’s real, though my Atheist friends strongly disagree :-)

  149. I think it’s important that we are real while we make the sausage of Church accountability here, but I also think it’s important we remember to share Jesus in as much a non-Pious way as we can from time to time.

  150. “Guru says… My experience with cc, chuck smith and the man made hypocritical system called church has also stumbled my walk with the Lord… Hard to trust Him sometimes when His leaders are so corrupt and hide it so well…”

    Same downward spiral happened to me. But at some point, the Lord emphasized a Bible verse that has almost become a life verse for me…Hebrews 12:1-3. “Fix your gaze on Jesus…” I have had four major life changing ‘disheartenings’ in the course of my christian life, and all of them have eventually lead me to cling tighter to Jesus for guidance.

    CS Lewis said in, A Grief Observed, that we all build houses of cards only to have the Great Iconoclast knock it down. Everything that is not built on the solid truth found in God, and trusted in, is an idol. God is merciful, gracious, and loving to replace the idol with himself. I deeply respect God for doing that work in my life because I have never merited any of it.

  151. Thank you Alex and WA! I know that in my head, it’s my heart that needs to catch up.

    Still in process I suppose… but on the way I hope!

  152. G’nite Phil, sleep well.

    Phil is not a Vampire, he lives in Greece :smile:

  153. Just wondering…Dave Rolph may be a “nice guy” but what form a church government does he have at his Calvary Chapel?

    Is it the Moses Model (which can be very authoritarian) or does it have meaningful accountability?

    Because when push comes to shove is when meaningful accountabilty in church leadership from peers on equal footing matters.

  154. Q,
    I think a more valid question is, what form of church does Chuck Smith recognize in his non denominational denomination? Dave Rolph is the only one listed as pastor of record on the Calvary web site. It appears that only the senior pastor is recognized by Chuck Smith. Can a church have more than one senior pastor?

    This from Calvary’s web site: All Calvary Chapel churches are independent of one another (not a denomination). Some do not even bear the name of Calvary Chapel but all are connected by the fellowship and like-mindedness of the men who serve as their senior pastors.

  155. Alex,

    I read your #149 several times.
    Based on what you have said there, for me personally it causes confusion as to why o the need for this blog if “we are all sinners”. That would justify every wrong done.

    The reason I am confused is because I hear over and over again (even as recently as today-from a “fellow believer”)…we are all sinners, we are all imperfect, as if to support the non-confrontational approach to church discipline. It dismisses the time and energy spent here and elsewhere to make any changes.

    The argument against personal involvement goes like this: “Just let God deal with the Pastor, leadership, sinners in general. Just take care of yourself and ask God what he wants you to do in your own life. He will take care of everything else”
    While I totally agree, because we are each accountable to God and what He is trying to change in us, IMO, it doesn’t sit well with me to just sit back and have a deaf ear to the abuse we see around us. God the Father in the OT did not let the Israelites intermingle with any of the nations around them, he called them out of the darkness, much like we read in the NT from Jesus’ teachings. Yet some believe it is fine to stay in a church where there is darkness, because there are “some really spirit-filled” believers there.
    If we continue to have fellowship with the darkness, we are not in obedience. IS that true or not? Maybe I need to be corrected. If I knowingly have fellowship with the darkness, how can I expose the darkness? How dark does it have to be? A little? 5%, 10%, 2%. How much leaven spoils the whole bundh?

    Another phrase is “well, the wheat grows with the tares, God will seperate them at the right time”…so why even bother to remove a sinning Pastor when God will one day deal with him?

    I am not sure why others would want to stay in a church where they know others are or have been abused, other than to remain loyal to their friends, keep the fellowship going, because it is more important than confronting the Pastor, and because they really believe that what happens to others is no business of theirs, has no effect on them, or they just really don’t care about anything other than their own personal experience.
    I am not criticizing anyone for why they choose to not remove themselves. There are many more reasons. I am sure many just need a job and need to pay the bills, and maybe there are hundreds like this (I know several)

    I just think that post was kind of out of character with what you express here.
    Seems like a huge shift of acceptance of the situation. Maybe I am wrong. Unless this post is totally seperate from the subject of this blog. You really aren’t addressing anything that pertains to this situation here.

    Just read it again. Was that just your sharing the gospel?

    I know you won’t see this post as challenging you-just trying to better understand.
    Maybe some others will come against me for what I have said..Hope not :)

    These are issues I persoanlly struggle with, with so much opposition from believers.
    Like Grateful, I try so hard to minimize my words. :)

  156. Hannah said, “I read your #149 several times.
    Based on what you have said there, for me personally it causes confusion as to why o the need for this blog if “we are all sinners”. That would justify every wrong done.

    The reason I am confused is because I hear over and over again (even as recently as today-from a “fellow believer”)…we are all sinners, we are all imperfect, as if to support the non-confrontational approach to church discipline. It dismisses the time and energy spent here and elsewhere to make any changes.”

    Glad you brought that up. Gives me a chance to clarify and make the point:

    The “Church” / Professing believers vs. The World / Sinners / those who don’t profess belief in Jesus Christ as Messiah.

    We have it backwards many times in Evangelicalism (IMO).

    We want to point out the flaws in those dirty heathen “sinners!” etc and call them to task…but we don’t exercise Church Discipline, Accountability and don’t deal with Sin in our LEADERSHIP.

    It should start from the TOP down. The MOST accountability is at the Top.

    Unfortunately, we have it upside down often.

    Strict accountability and rebuke for “sinners” be they professing Lay-people or the unsaved.

    The Leadership is untouchable and perfect. WRONG.

    We should scrutinize the Leadership the most, as Jesus Christ did and as Paul the Apostle calls for in the Qualifications etc.

    We should extend THE MOST GRACE to the Lay-people, the sinners, the unsaved.

    We major in the minors and we minor in the majors…often.

  157. Hannah will you be offended if I tell you I love you? ;-)
    Reading your posts has been such a blessing and a source of growth and challenge for me.

  158. Alex, Nicky says “Hi” :-)

  159. Hi back Nicky! :smile:

    Instead of Pastors standing in the pulpit rebuking those God has entrusted them with, and instead of Pastors standing in the pulpit attacking the unwashed sinners, etc…they should start with themselves and their other Pastor/Elders.

    Lead by example. Show me, don’t just tell me.

    Look at the Standard I’m held to in bringing this fight to Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. You’d think I had to be Jesus Christ Himself before they’ll do what they could and should.

    Yet, a Pastor (Bob Grenier) is still preaching away from the safety and power of his Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel approved pulpit and making over $100,000 per year off of Jesus…yet is a lying conniving snake and abuser.

    It’s way backwards.

    We need to call sin sin and it starts from the Top on down.

    We have no business rebuking the World for being sinners, when we (our Leadership) are the biggest hypocritical sin lovers and coverers and protectors and enablers of “their” Brand and their Pastors/Salesmen/Representatives.

  160. Jesus is our Greatest example in Scripture. I don’t think we can do much better than Jesus Christ Himself…and then maybe Paul the Apostle.

    Read what Jesus said, “how” He said it and to whom He said stuff to.

    I see a CLEAR dichotomy to how Jesus treated, spoke to (tone, exclamation marks, names He called them etc) between the Pharisees (Religious and Political Leaders of that day and age) and even Jesus’s own Disciples.

    Then, you have Jesus addressing the “sinners”. Big and CONSISTENT difference.

  161. Jesus Christ to the Pharisees:

    “You SNAKES! You Brood of Vipers! You Hypocrites! You White-Washed Tombs!”

    Jesus to the Money Changers: He kicked their butts.

    Jesus to Peter: “Get behind me satan!”

    Jesus to the Woman at the Well: He was very kind to her, spoke with her, treated her very well, yet He did call sin sin and she was truthful: “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

    Jesus shared the Gospel with her and Revealed Himself to her as Messiah. He treated her in a much different manner than the other instances above.

    Jesus to Zaccheus, Levi the tax collector, etc: He spent time with them, He ate and drank with sinners and was gracious toward them, while still calling sin sin.

    Jesus to those who were crucifying HIm: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do”.

    I look at attitude, tone, emotion, rhetorical style…as well as the raw words in Scripture.

    Clearly, Jesus exampled a Dichotomy in His approach, and as “Christ Followers” I think we should notice that difference and try to model it.

  162. We seem to Model an upside down Worldly Standard (often).

    We put Preachers on Pedestals and create man idols out of them and then we create Systems around these men and the whole thing becomes very Political, very Hierarchical and very Group Dynamical…kind of like Jesus Amway.

    The currency is “Butts in seats” and size of the CC, etc. and how big a following you can produce and how well you can kiss up to Chuck Smith and build the Brand.

    False.

    Our “currency” should be Truth and dealing with sin in Leadership and exampling in Leadership the Servant of All and try our best to model the Qualifications Paul the Apostle lays out CLEARLY in Scripture (and very “simply” btw).

  163. These “man idols” then can do no wrong…lit-rally (as BG over-enunciates).

    There is this pressure for the “man idol” to project 100% perfection….oh, they’ll cop to some general sense of “I’m a sinner too” but they don’t cop to specific sins, that would be TERRIBLE! They would possibly lose “their” ministry, their income etc.

    I keep hearing that Pastor so-and-so, “I’ve know them for 30 years and they’ve NEVER lied and they have impeccable Character” etc etc.

    Ya, right. Sounds like they don’t require a Savior, they’re so perfect already.

    What really happens is often these “pastors” project a False Piety and impression that just isn’t true. They don’t really cop to sin, they hide it, cover it up, etc and they get worse and worse, b/c the cancer is still there…and guys like their Board and Elders and even Chuck Smith and Roger Wing help them protect that False Image.

    Instead, the Church Leadership should follow Scripture and deal with sin publicly when these guys fall and don’t repent and/or keep doing the same bad stuff over and over and over.

    Who said a Pastor has to be a life-long Career? When did it become a Career anyways?

    If you are truly “called” and truly “anointed” to that role, God will give you the ability to consistently model the clear Qualifications. If you can’t do it, be honest and get the heck on the other side of the pulpit.

    We have WAAAAYYY too many Career Pastors out there…and some need to be on the other side of the Pulpit like me.

  164. Once again Alex, # 164 is spot on!

  165. Alex and the rest of you- thank you for allowing me to see the real Christian. Those who struggle with sin, but yet are not afraid to mention it nor are they afraid to let the Lord deal with their sin. I relish for the Lord to deal with me when I have sinned against Him, for if I listen to the Holy Spirit and His conviction I can only receive His complete mercy and peace. And His peace is wonderful! I count myself blessed to receive His correction for it is because I know of His love for me. Sin is something we are to face up to as is in a mirror- our reflection shows us truely who we are. No need to hide for we cannot- God sees all and nothing can hidden from Him. Should we not embrace this and be joyful that we are in His protective Hands? Why cover up with layers of lies after lies?

    Yes Alex we are going to talk with the pastor tonight and then I will tell the other members why we left. I hate to do it because the pastor as far as I know is a godly man, but we cannot support this organization.

  166. How about the whole ordination process anyway… One hypocrite lays hands on another potential hypocrite and says the magic words and puff, your a cc pastor! Heck we can even through in a “Honorary Doctorate” from our cc extension campus if you align with us…

    Some cc guys have layers of regional (lesser cc affiliates) to protect their district empire…
    remember the 10 mile rule?

    Kingdom Now Theology in practice… cc style

  167. You can know refer to me as Dr. Guru because that is how it worked for me…

  168. and I can’t even spell throw…

  169. OK Alex! Your #160 – 164 is the Alex I know! :)

    I thought you were going soft gor awhile there :)
    So how do I do the smiley with the wink?
    All I know how to do is the “regular” one!

  170. Got this off the CCV website home page.

    “Calvary Chapel Visalia is in fellowship with Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, and the many hundreds of other Calvary Chapels in the U.S., and around the world.”

  171. Wendy-

    Here’s some love back at ya! XOXOXO

    So when is the fast ladies?
    Tomorrow or Friday?

    FG- Praying for God’s Spirit to direct you with your meeting tonight.
    And praying for the Pastor’s heart to be open to your words.

  172. Just a word on PP (and here too), I know I don’t post much, but when I did to provide a balance to the slam on Alex the other day (not to defend you Alex, but bring balance), it was like I’m an Alex groupie now and Alex tells me what to do. I love you Alex, but you don’t tell me what to do.

    I wanted to point out the absurd in what several were doing over there, but they were so quick to discredit and put on the pompous attitude. Some are leaders there some are not, I know this. It was stated that there is some maturity over there, and maybe so, but I prefer the raw because there seems to be less games involved.

    As a believer, it just irritates me that so many “holy” people represent my God on a platform, but when challenged… oooh boy… watch out! Wait!… I thought debate is actually good. Are we not taught to be people who question and make certain what is being said lines up with Scripture? All too often I see the CC leaders (generalization here) getting their panties all bunched up. I know, I know… others do too. In fact, mine get tangled here and there.

    I do see both sides of many things that are said and I do agree many times with parts of both sides, but when the walls go up and the Pharisees stand up with chests stuck out… I can’t help myself but to post the other viewpoint. I agree with WA when he said “many in our day do not know how to conduct a vigorous argument without getting easily offended.” This is so true! To be honest, I’m sure I could have an great heated argument with Alex, call him a jerk and then 10min later, ask where we are heading for dinner. It’s not a love/hate thing. It’s all love, but for the sake of debate, people who enter into the world of cyberspace, need to understand the concept of agree to disagree. It does NOT mean you have a closed mind to being wrong and later changing your stance.

  173. And this:

    “We had talked and prayed with Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and together with his blessing, Gayle and I moved from Eugene Oregon, where I had been pastoring the Shiloh Fellowship, and Calvary Chapel of Visalia held it’s first services, at 1:30 on Sunday afternoons, in a community room of a local store called Gottshalks. “

  174. Hannah :smile: ;-)

    usticeJay, what do you mean I can’t tell you what to do! :twisted: :smile: LOL, I agree, do what you believe is right and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me all the time, though I will push hard for what I think is right in a debate or a situation.

    I don’t think I have one friend who agrees with me more than about 50% or so :smile: and that’s healthy, IMO. But, we tend to agree on “some” of the Big Stuff.

  175. Summer, thanks.

    Clearly, Bob Grenier considers Chuck Smith his Pastor and the Pastor who anointed him and sent him to Visalia.

    Chuck Smith has a spiritual/Scriptural responsibility to deal with his spiritual son.

  176. So how do you do those difference smileys?
    Amazing how the smiley sets the tone.
    Is that a devil one?
    A devil smiley, then a happy one after..Amazing to switch emotions in a split second!

    In Re to usticejay, maybe there ought to be a rule in blogging to insert the correct smiley after each sentence, then we will never be misunderstood. :)
    I will now find a website so I can better express myself in smiley’s !

  177. Hannah, the devil looking one is called “twisted” you use the : then spell twisted with no space and :

    Here’s a link to a tutorial on creating smilies in WordPress:

    http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies

    :smile: ;-) :twisted: 8O

    :lol: 8)

  178. I… will … obey … your … every … command… 8-|

    NOT!

    But I still love you!

  179. usticejay, LOL!

    Love you too bro :smile:

    And, hey, novel idea here, we can disagree at times and still be friends.

  180. Now, usticejay, if I ever hear you are jerk to that wonderful wife and kids of yours, I will have to fly to Cali and put you in a choke hold until you repent :lol:

  181. Gottschalks??? Wow, it really went down from there….LOL ;-)

  182. Why, of course, we can disagree at times. :roll:

    If you come this way.. you will first have to catch me, but I put up a good fight! :lol:

  183. Actually, CCV really started in our apartment on James Street in Visalia with a few families, then moved to the upstairs storage of Gottschalk’s when it grew a little, but yes, essentially that’s correct, the formal services started in Gottschalk’s before moving to the YMCA, then to the YMCA Gymnasium when the Y built on much larger…then to the 13 acre campus and New Building and offices on Ave. 264.

  184. Thanks Hannah- :) will be praying too!

  185. unstaceJay “It does NOT mean you have a closed mind to being wrong and later changing your stance.”

    I totally agree. Plenty of times I have read and read, built up a good rant. Blew it out and then later regretted it after reading the same posts again.. I’m human, I make mistakes, mostly out of the passion for the situation.

    Forgiveness is a two way street. Give and take.

  186. Alex…”Actually, CCV really started in our apartment on James Street in Visalia with a few families, then moved to the upstairs storage of Gottschalk’s when it grew a little, but yes, essentially that’s correct, the formal services started in Gottschalk’s before moving to the YMCA, then to the YMCA Gymnasium when the Y built on much larger…then to the 13 acre campus and New Building and offices on Ave. 264.”

    To add…Bob G., in his own words, said that when he first came to Visalia and met with the first families desiring a CC, about half of them left the fellowship. I know you were young Alex but do you know if that was true, and why they left?

  187. WA, I remember a banker named Wendal Libby (I believe his name was). I think he was the guy who started Visalia Community Bank or one of the local banks.

    I remember a few other families, and yes, I think I remember some of them bailing early on, not sure why, but maybe it was Bob. He’s pretty weird. Maybe they got a bad vibe and bolted. Wish they’d have taken us with them.

  188. Thanks for the link.
    Really will expand my horizons now ;)

  189. Alex-

    Sorry to interject your conversation….I have been thinking about how Mr. Smith has an attractive female attorney, and how I have found leadership at my old CC to be very…how should I put this…hesitant to have a woman have authority over a man..I know that an attorney may be different than having a woman as a Pastor or leading a man spiritually, and I was wondering if this is CCCM’s attorney or do they have a group and she is just one of the attorneys? I just found this very odd…By the way, you haven’t heard back at all from her? Hasn’t returned your calls?

    Just surprised at the choice of a female. Usually a real “boys club”.
    At least my experience.
    I hope I don’t get stoned for saying this :cry: :oops:

  190. Hannah, I see you’re getting the hang of the smilies :smile:

    Bob Grenier has a female attorney as well. I think when it comes to their butts on the line, they’ll toss the misogyny aside.

    My experience with Bob G is that he teaches and practices the “wives submit to your husbands” in a wrong way and he treats women very poorly…many of whom are on this blog or have been on this blog.

    Chuck, I’m not so sure about. Maybe Motel can give us some input there.

  191. Hannah, you’re not alone in your thinking regarding the female attorney. I thought it was kind of odd too, considering the whole women submitting to men thing.
    Maybe it was a calculated move, who knows? Every CC I attended was so intent on women staying home and home-schooling their kids, not working outside the home, it’s hard not to be a little suspicious of Chuck having a female atty.

  192. Could it be that the attorney is just a loyalist and happens to follow and worship the man? Her website is horribly designed. It could be that CS is being cheap and took a loyalist vs. a male. He may not have a male version loyalist at the moment. Plus, if he is playing on the cheap, she seems logical. One would just think a high dollar firm would have a website that wasn’t difficult to read (visually). Just another angle to think of.

  193. WA, Valerie and Gene Schneider were some of the originals also. I remember them well. We met in their house on Feemster in Visalia for bible study in the early days. I think they were part of the group that left early on after having a run-in with ‘ol Bob.

  194. OMGosh, I love this! :mrgreen:

  195. Re: Atty

    Would be interesting to know if she attends CCCM.
    That would mean that she would get a lot of referrals and business from the church.
    When they have an atty that worships there, they refer out to them a lot.
    Saw that happen.

    Wendy- We women have that intuition! Are we still allowed to use that word? :D

  196. I did it! I did it! I did it!!

    :p

    :lol:

  197. Oh shut! I screwed up.

    :P

  198. Hannah:

    Intuition – Discernment

    :twisted:

  199. Janet Carter offices in the Logos Building. She has a show on K-Wave and I’m pretty sure she attends CCCM.

    She has been involved in Settlements and Legal Actions for Chuck before.

    I don’t know much about her other than that, and she’s smart and attractive. Not quite as smart as Motel, but waaaaay more attractive :lol:

  200. Summer is really enjoying the smilies :lol:

    I like the twisted :twisted: smiley, I nicknamed him Bob. ;-)

  201. Wendy: Maybe it was a calculated move, who knows? Every CC I attended was so intent on women staying home and home-schooling their kids, not working outside the home,

    Thats a good thing…most of the moms I knew worked, had families, attended mid week and weekend services, and volunteered so much in ministry, yet the Pastors wives never worked outside the home, and didn’t homeschool their kids. Private school I think is free for Pastor’s kids. Yeah, another perk for the Pastor.

  202. Hey, I better get off before I put my foot in my mouth.
    I was wondering what we are doing about the fasting.
    I will check back in a few hours so if you are interested please respond back.
    I know Friday is a weekend sort of night so some may not want to do it.

    Tomorrow is good for me.
    We can come on early AM and pray together.

    So Alex, you don’t have to answer, …..did she call you back? :)

  203. Summer- Your smilies move!
    -Intuition…..not sure if that is a psychological word than can be utilized by believers :?:

  204. Hannah, forgot to answer that.

    No, no return phone call or email.

    Stone Wall is back up.

  205. OK..so some of mine move too.
    I am going a little crazy looking at smilies so I will sign off for now. Exit stage right :arrow:

  206. OK Alex-Will be praying for that tomorrow.

  207. Andrew,

    Good point #155, maybe it is not possible to have meaningful accountability in the Calvary Chapel movement if only one man is going to be recognized at CCOF and it is not written into the bylaws at the local level.

    I think many of the CC pastors start off well intentioned but when some become “successful” and money (sometimes big money) flows in they lose focus and start playing the game to protect their position and status.

    Meaningful accountability from peers on equal footing should be able to bring a person back to what they are suppose to be doing and the way they are suppose to do it or rebuke them publically. Like Paul reproving Peter.

    Peers have a way of keeping us in reality.

    If you can fire your accountability and all assets are in your name and no one else will listen it’s not meaningful accountability.

  208. Hannah- re: your #203
    I was very fortunate to be able to stay home with my kids until they were in school, and I really feel bad for the mothers who want to stay home but can’t afford to.
    The thing that always bugged me, though, was if you weren’t a stay at home mom and you didn’t home school your kids, you were somehow not as spiritual as the moms who did.
    My feeling is that we moms, whether stay at home or working, need to encourage each other, not have the superiority attitude towards the other.
    Of course, I’m old now and my kids are grown so I don’t have to worry about that. :cry:

  209. Alex…I’m sure you know that once you went full out the other day, CS and his legal ‘team’ would be idiots to contact you now. That is very understandable. They were given a chance to show good faith and obviously passed on it. It seems to me that the opposing attorneys have the burden now to establish ‘agency’, which may not be very hard to do, and get an action against CCCM for supporting Bob Grenier, and others. I think hell would freeze over before Bob or the others admit anything at this point.

  210. WA, I guess I keep hoping Chuck Smith will do the right thing spiritually, attorneys be damned…but that’s pie in the sky I guess.

  211. It’s good to hope because it means we still believe in miracles. It will take a miracle to see spiritual change over legal manuverings.

  212. Alex, it’s kind of amusing to read these deep analytical observations of the CCA vs the PP blogs, actually it reminds me more of the Junior High bantering between the various cliques when I was like 12 years old.

    Why is that the girls always seem to be the most territorial too? ;-)

    It should be noted that without the Phoenix Preacher, your blog would probably barely be a blip on the radar screen, just sayin’

    What I’m thinking about doing is having all the regulars come over here every day for weeks on end and blitz your blog with each of our own personal vendettas. You know, like just take over every thread with one brass comment, question and demand after the other from all your readers to join in our own just cause.

    Of course we’ll throw in a few jokes here and there with some geo-political commentary to mix it up some. And smiley faces…lots of smiley faces ;-)

  213. Scott, wow girls? I don’t know of any girls on this blog but there are women here.
    As for the rest of your purposely sarcastic and baiting comment, bless your little heart :-)

  214. Hey Scott, tell you what, if your step-dad is currently a Calvary Chapel pastor and he abused you and your little brothers growing up, molested one of them, and b/c of his unrepentant sin and lying you can’t see your Mom and your kids can’t see their grandma….

    …and if he’s also hurt a whole bunch of good people (some very recently) and you have a heart and conscience and know the right thing to do is confront it for a long time until it’s dealt with (b/c you have the ability and conviction to do it)…yet your step-dad still pastors on with the full endorsement of Chuck Smith and full “in Fellowship” with 1200 other Calvary Chapel Pastors…

    Then, be my guest and post away.

    If you were me, and I was a CC pastor on PhxP, I’d have helped you more than you know, to the point I would have personally gone to Visalia and met this head on. That’s the person I am.

    If someone has need, I give them some food. If someone is being bullied, I literally stand up to the bully. If someone is being beat up by their husband, I step in and actually do something. I don’t just comment on a blog anonymously as a CC pastor and dole out platitudes and then defend my excuses for why I can’t and won’t do something to help all these people.

    I spend the time, I spend the money, I take the trips, I meet in person, I put in countless hours…and I keep on doing it.

  215. Scott, what’s a “brass comment”? :lol:

  216. “What I’m thinking about doing is having all the regulars come over here”

    Great, that’ll boost the numbers by 10. :smile: :lol: :twisted:

  217. On a serious note, Michael is awesome. I am greatly indebted to him for giving me a voice and for helping me in many ways. I’ve learned a lot over at PhxP and still participate.

    I’m guilty as charged on lots of stuff: posting too much, being a jerk sometimes, etc. Haven’t run from it, don’t now.

    I probably disagree that the socio-political stuff or humor was out of line. It goes with sharing part of yourself in community.

  218. LOL Alex

  219. One more for you Scott. Hopefully it will inspire you to something worthwhile:

    The Man in the Arena (by Teddy Roosevelt)

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

  220. Hannah:

    trust me. the business you get from referrals is no blessing and slow or no pay. janet is a highly professional and competent attorney who i greatly respect. her faith is genuine and she does attend cccm. since i was an attorney, i am highly sympathetic to circumstances. she practices out of the logos bldg and to my knowledge paid like rent as did other tenants.

    i doubt that she has a lot of infromation on cccm or the details of this matter. she is not atorney of record in the idaho litigation and upon my departure, another former SP who was an atty was hired and i presume did the bulk ofthe legal work, such as there was. doubtful if janet has done much and chuck likely didnotneed an attorney n this capacityuntil this matter surfaced.

  221. Alex

    i take great humbrage at yur cmment that janet is f ar more attractive than me. i am beautiful inside. candidly, i’m sick of those mysogenistic and chauvanistic guyys that run blogs taking shots at the loks of a decent man.

    i willnever concede on that point and both janet and i deserve your full apologies as itis patently unfair to compare her looks to mine. such a high bar should not be set that we both know is unattainable. janet and i do however share the same bar..as members.

  222. finally. the only representationi know she had of cccm or pc was reping jeffsmith, the scoundrel and antichrist..and i am sure after listenngto his pontificating and ditthering about god, minstry, balh, blah, blah, she likely would up effectively beongaid about $11.32 per hour.

  223. Motel, I apologize for telling the truth :lol: ;-)

  224. alex. now you sound like the cc pastor on pxp

  225. What’s his name? The anonymous one? :smile:

  226. I don’t recall anyone minding here anything said by dusty and Nonnie and jlo. E-runner said something a little off or misunderstood that he graciously came over and explained. I think along with some others that it would have been nice if AV came over and apologized. I don’t get #214 Scott. This isn’t a site vs PP. It seems some realize they can’t say some things they want to say there. It seems more of a “closed group” there to them. It seems to me that the comments have been fair. What comment bothers you? I am here and have respect for PP and most of the people there. I don’t feel very comfortable there though for some of the same reasons people have brought up here, which is interesting to me. I think the comments here have been reasonable.

  227. Darn-If Scott used more smilies, I would know if he was kidding or serious :l

  228. So where are the ladies who would let me know if the fast and prayer is tomorrow??

    Motel- What are you doing here on the high holy holiday of Rosh Hashana?
    You paid good $ for your seat didn’t you?

    PS. Thanks for the info.

  229. is it sinning to blog in schule on the high holidays.

    oh.

    i have to leave.

    the rabbi is chantng the psalm we all know:

    “hare krisna, hare krisna, krisna krisna, hare hare ”

    i remember that one from my bar mitzvah

  230. PS Motel,

    Your spelling….are you sitting in shul using your iphone? :wink:

  231. Just to make it clear. I was posting when Motel was!!
    So how did I know that?
    The Ruach HaKodesh!!!

  232. That has to be a Reform Temple, huh?

  233. Funny thing is every time I post here I either get rebuked or Jesus juked. There are a couple of posters here who do the same thing they accuse the CC Pastors at pxp of doing to them.

    Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.

  234. Hannah, I’m down with the prayer, and I can fast after lunch and before dinner (during my MMA training) :smile:

  235. OK…the smilies didn’t help Alex. Is that a joke?
    I will fast tomorrow.

    Jlo-???

  236. ipad. hannah. you r wasting your words on the goyum. oh. all right. hannah is reffering to the Holy Spirit

    reformed jews aren’t even jews poppy, an orthodox tzadek, told me so.

  237. jlo-
    I know you from PP and have nothing but good thoughts towards you.
    How is everything with going?

  238. Motel-
    Reformed in Judaism doesn’t have nearly the meaning it does in Christianity!
    OK I will stop interrupting your service. Kiss the Torah for me!

  239. Erunner is a name I took when I used to post on a runners forum. I used to do a lot of 5 and 10K’s back in the day. The E in erunner stands for evangelical.

    I’m 57 years old and have three adult children and two grandchildren. I’ve been a believer for 35 years having been saved at a Saturday night concert at CCCM. Gentle Faith and Erick Nelson played that night and Tom Stipe brought the message. In a few weeks I celebrate 35 years of marriage.

    I’m a big sports fan although nothing like in my youth. I enjoy baseball and basketball the most as well as the NFL. I also like track and field, especially distance running. It blows me away that marathoners can run 26 consecutive miles at a pace under five minutes per mile. Way below!!

    Music is a huge part of my life. Right now I’m listening to Astral Weeks by Van Morrison. Van is an unbelievable artist. Having grown up in home with a raging alcoholic father music was an escape for me. My musical claim to fame was I attended the California Jam back in 1974.

    In high school I was pretty much a rock and roll only fanatic until a teacher introduce me to the singer songwriter. I soon was hooked on Simon and Garfunkle, Cat Stevens, Carol King, Neil Young, etc. Reading their lyrics (especially Cat Steven) got me to thinking about life as they posed serious lyrics and posed serious questions for me. I believe this music softened my heart to the point that I became open to the gospel years later.

    My wife and I knew we would marry after our first date. We waited two years before tying the knot. She is an inspiration to me. She has severe rheumatoid arthritis which developed when she was a teenager. She has had three surgeries, the most recent being a serious one on her right elbow which will probably have to be replaced at some point.

    For two years I commuted 97 miles to get to work. I worked 9-10 hour days on top of that and a half day on Saturday. I look back and wonder how I was able to do it.

    Growing up I was terrified of my father. His drinking made him into a mean man and for a kid that was too much for me. I couldn’t show emotions or weakness as I struggled to get by. Those early fears later took on a life of their own.

    Fat forward to about 20 years ago. I started having problems breathing, being in crowds, and driving distances. I had no idea what was going on. This lasted for about two years. Then on a Saturday morning I took a sales appointment about 90 miles from home and brought our daughter and her best friend along with me. About 70 miles into the drive I was having trouble breathing. Worse, my mind was totally out of control as I thought I was losing my mind or on the verge of dying. Somehow I made it to the appointment. I got out of the car and after sending the girls in I got down on my knees and prayed. I was desperate, scared, and confused. Somehow I made it through the appointment.

    As I began the drive home I was a mess. But as I passed mental targets on the way home my anxiety subsided. By the time I got home I was exhausted but fine. I immediately got in to see someone at church for prayer. I told the guy I thought I might have something like panic or agoraphobia. At that time I had no real idea bout this stuff. The man sitting across from me knew less. I let him know I was concerned as I had an appointment the next day in downtown Los Angeles. He rebuked the “disease” and prayed for me. He told me to listen to Christian music and meditate on God as I made the drive the next day. The next day I made that drive and I had a worse attack. I was confused and scared.

    Thus began my life with mental illness. I went from a man who enjoyed his nearly 200 mile daily trips to and from work to a man who almost became housebound. I have been mocked and been made fun of. One man tried to cast demons out of me. Others told me to trust God and his promises. My pastor and good friend told me I was in sin which led to us leaving that church.

    I showed up at Phoenix Preacher about 5-6 years ago. I started out there poorly but eventually became a part of the community. People there prayed for and encouraged me. It was there that Michael allowed me to write a few articles about mental illness as parts of the church have such a poor understanding of it. That led to the creation of my blog about five and a half years ago. It’s there for folks like me and their families. Simply trying to make a difference for someone who is distraught and confused or even suicidal. God has been gracious to use the blog to make a difference for some people.

    Why write all of this on Alex’s blog?? I felt compelled to share my life and let you know what my life was and is like. I guess also to remind myself and some of you that behind each screen name is a brother or sister with their own story to tell. I know I lose sight of that at times, especially when things are heated.

    I always like to share music. This is a song that brings calmness to me if I’m anxious. I hope you enjoy it. God bless.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em8EAHrW9fY

  240. Hannah, you are always gracious.

    I have good days and bad days, thank you for asking.

    And I will be join you in prayer and fasting tomorrow.

  241. E-runner,
    Thanks for sharing.
    Happy anniversary. Your marriage sounds like a love story.
    My heart goes out to your wife – RA is very painful.

    Your choice of music was EXACTLY what I listened to as we are about the same age.
    Neil Young…he was” it” for me..Carole King. I knew every word on her tapesty album. I would add Jackson Brown. Music today is seriously lacking the poetry of that time.

    We are all real people behind white letters on a black background.

    Thanks for sharing.
    Now I will watch the video.
    I posted one this morning that no one commented on.
    Check that one out.
    It is one of the most beautiful songs.

    Goodnight everyone.

  242. Hannah, I’ll be joining you in prayer, but it is difficult for me to fast tomorrow, b/c seriously, I have MMA training and I either puke or nearly pass out it’s so intense, so I have to eat and drink the first half of the day and then after the session.

  243. G’nite Hannah.

    E, Jlo, good to see you guys.

  244. jlo-
    Great! I get up really early, so if it is OK with Alex, I can post a prayer, and maybe others througout the day can do the same.

    I just thought of this song:
    “Come on people now-shine on your brother, everybody come together try and love one another right now…right now, right now…….”

    See ya manana! (sorry for hijacking the thread.) Definitely too many posts in a row. Ya go on Alex’s blog, ya pick up his bad habits!

  245. Hannah, LOL.

    I’ll post a thread in the Pages for Prayer.

  246. shine=smile….. as in “smiley-face” :mrgreen

  247. Hannah, I get up late :smile: you lead the way, I’ll follow. I do my best praying as I walk my dogs, I’ll check in here before I leave.

  248. Hi e-runner. Thanks for sharing your story more completely. I’ve heard only bits and pieces of it before. I like what you said that behind each screen name is a brother or sister with their own story to tell. That’s for sure. It’s interesting to me how so many of us from CC had some of the same family background problems,especially alcoholism. Had and have that in mine too. peace –

  249. Erunner thank you for sharing your story. Mental illness still carries a certain stigma, and especially in many churches. I had a breakdown last year and was diagnosed with depression and panic and anxiety disorder. Like you, I could hardly leave the house.
    My 23 yr old son was diagnosed as bipolar with panic disorder 2 years ago and has been hospitalized twice. The first time, my exhusband tried to tell the intake person that my son was an alcoholic, like that would carry less of a stigma than mental illness.
    It’s been a long road for both of us, but thank God for knowledgable doctors.

  250. Alex, read every day but rarely post, as the same with pxp. I will say this though; you’ve got a prickly bunch here, which by the way I completely understand. (Had to clarify so someone doesn’t get their knickers in a knot)

  251. Hannah I’ll be up at 4:30 Calif. Time so I’ll be joining in prayer. :-)

  252. Jlo, LOL. I can’t really get on anyone too much for that, I am the Pot to the Kettle for sure on that one. :smile:

  253. jlo – knotted knickers are no fun :-P

  254. Hey aren’t we all. Never expected you to get “on” anyone, just expressing an opinion. I’m a big girl and can handle whatever anyone wants to throw at me, just can’t guarantee I’ll respond like a lady. :wink:

  255. Hannah, We must be from the same generation! I watched the video you linked to and it is beautiful although I will say the imagery might be intense for some. It’s late and I’m Running On Empty!

    Sue, I’ll bet many of us have very similar stories. Maybe God used our tough times as a means to bring us to faith?

    Wendy, I’m sorry you had such a difficult time last year and hope things have improved for you. People quite often can’t relate because they haven’t experienced what we have. I hope you’ve gotten the support you deserve.

    My oldest son (33) has had some issues with anxiety but seems just fine now. Your son’s illness must be very hard on you as a parent. It sounds like he is receiving good treatment and I hope he will be able to move forward and live a full life. Thank you for sharing.

  256. Jlo, I’m sure you have a story just like the rest of us. Thanks Erunner. That story defines who we are and I’m sure we all could easily sit down together and enjoy a great time of fellowship with each other. Sheesh, we worship the same Jesus!!

    Just because we might see a different perspective does not mean there is any animosity involved. Disagreements happen in families all the time. I love my family in a deep way, but our discussions are quite fun! All we are doing is standing up for what we believe to be true. Sometimes we have new information that will sway us to the opposite side we originally started with.

    I know many very close to this situation at first would never believe any of the accusations. As more and more facts were laid out on the table for all to see… those who once supported BG, now think differently. Some took many years to get there.

    I would agree with you that many times our approach to discussions or situations are not always the most wise. This includes ALL of us! We stand to learn a lot from each other. I don’t see PP as a “side” and this blog as a “side.” I see it as the same side, just different locations on the street with different viewpoints… and that is totally ok!

    I have been a lurker and am pretty much a newbie, but Alex does not make me feel as though I have to tip toe around. Plus, this is a very 2-dimensional format in which to communicate so much grace is needed when becoming a participant.

  257. yes e-runner – a rock to hold onto that keeps me from spinning out (most of the time) :)

  258. Calvary Chapel ‘Moses Model’ is unbiblical and allows for zero accountability because pastors are ‘only accountable to God Himself”. That is not consistant with the New Testament at all. http://southshorebaptist.com/2010/12/23/the-moses-model/

    Many Calvary Chapel Senior pastors call others ‘slanderers’ or ‘divisive’ should they bring a concern about a sin or false teaching. Seriously. It happened to me.

    It is ‘projection’. In my opinion, it is demonic because it is false accusation. We are supposed to hold each other accountable.

  259. I don’t think it is just one Calvary Chapel that is abusive spiritually. I live in Henderson, Nevada and I have seen very interesting things here. Isn’t this widespread?

  260. The Moses Model elevates the “Senior” pastor to an unbiblical position over the body and does not have the proper checks and balances.

    When unchecked can lead to abusive situations and adults and children have been hurt.

  261. Meaningful accountability in church leadership would prevent many abusive situations and resolve others when they happen and actually protect the body of Christ not only from inside but also outside the church.

  262. Erunner~

    Welcome! I was very touched by your story and would love to take a look at your website if you would post it. I too am from your generation, the best generation to be from IMHO! I am all about late 60′s – mid 70′s. God has been a very patient God with me and waited until the wild child in me leveled out a bit to allow me to understand and choose a personal relationship with Him.

    I am also an idealist, yes I have to deal with reality, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it! If I could have the ideal church it would be a place where everyone felt safe enough to lay down their masks at the door. Those masks can become very heavy, cumbersum and even painful as we wear them throughout the week. That is what I thought I had found when I began fellowshipping at CCV in 1984. My former husband and I had a weekly bible study in our home and often referred to church as the hospital and our bible study as the ICU. It was wonderful and then BLAM we were smacked in the face with more reality than we had bargained for in the entity named bob grenier! I too like so many have lost that innocent all trusting heart when it comes to the, ” church,” thing. I have not walked away from my God, but sadly from the man-made church. The irony in this is I have never felt closer to my God, my father and my closest friend!

    Hannah ~ I am agreement with you tomorrow and thank you for bringing this to our attention. We should be united in prayer on a regular basis, especially concerning chuck and bob.

  263. Janelle, The blog is at http://www.morethancoping.wordpress.com

    You have no idea how much I agree with what you have shared. That’s why it just floors me when I read about men like BG. I am a trusting person to the point you could say I’m naive. I came to faith and just thought that the pastor was somebody that I could put my trust in. After all, God called him and He called him because he would take care of those who sat under his teaching.

    Then reality hit and it threw me for a loop. If you can’t trust your pastor who on earth can you trust? I read how you hosted a study and seemingly plugged in at your church in a healthy way. Then it seems your world was rocked by whatever it was that BG decided to do. So much for the idea that all pastors serve in humility and the fear of the Lord. I hope there comes a time where you are able to find a church to belong to. It seems you have much to offer.

  264. “If I could have the ideal church it would be a place where everyone felt safe enough to lay down their masks at the door.” I like that Janelle.
    “The irony in this is I have never felt closer to my God, my father and my closest friend!”
    I’ve had a similar experience.

    Hannah – I will be working tomarrow, but I will join in as I can in my mind.

    Goodnight all —

  265. “It should be noted that without the Phoenix Preacher, your blog would probably barely be a blip on the radar screen, just sayin’”

    And without my CC FUAQ page to get this all moving, Michael would have had zero foundation for his BLOG.

    Just sayin’.

    The wind blows where it will…PxP served a purpose in it’s day. Now it’s just a place to shout down people who don’t hold their party line. A lot like CC if you think about it.

  266. I thought we may all need to be reminded of this and it would be a nice start to our day of prayer and fasting. So simple, yet, so true;

    http://youtu.be/-WybvhRu9KU

    Erunner ~

    Thank you so much for posting your blog. I will check it out after I go to bed and wake up in the morning. I have alot that I would love to discuss with you. Until then, May God pour out His blessings on you and your family.

    Sue ~

    I am so sorry that you have had a similar experience. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could gether everyone who has been so wounded by CC on this blog and meet together and worship and share God’s Word. There I go again with the Idealistic part of me. lol!

  267. Motel – “i take great umbrage at your comment that janet is far more attractive than me. ”

    Glad I didn’t say what the rest of us were thinking… :)

    I was once represented by the Senior Partner of the most prominent local firm in the area. He couldn’t make one of my hearings, but I was more than aptly represented by his associate (not a Senior Partner), and a very strikingly beautiful woman. I made the wrong assumption that she might not be “as good” as the Senior Partner. Boy was I wrong. She understood my case and made a very good impression in the court getting me what I needed done.

    Even attorneys are less likely to be jerks to a pretty lady. It was my false view that pretty doesn’t mean competent. Not only that, but I found it’s possible to be tough towards the other side and kind to me.

  268. On the subject of slander from CC pastors. Alex had me digging back in my files and I found a post from another forum where a CC pastor Leon from CC Newark posted that I had sought a position at CCCM and that I had been rebuffed so I turned bitter and was now extorting CC for money.

    Pretty imaginative and wrong on every level but kinda entertaining at the same time. No evidence was presented (impossible since there was no truth to the false charges) but it satisfied the CC adherents who took it as the truth and kept repeating it. It had to be true, since it came from the keyboard of a CC pastor.

    Don’t these people fear God? Or does protecting their ministry justify every lie they tell?

  269. E-Runner, I’m going to say something which is going to bother a lot of people but hopefully some will see the point I am trying to make.

    The purpose of this group is not fellowship, per se. It is not here so that we pretend this is a church. Nor is the purpose anything other than people who are drawn together by a common cause – to expose the structural problems in CC which lead it to be a place people are abused. We have the sort of fellowship of common experience, but we are not here to be friends or create a community. That is what PhxP is now and it serves that purpose to some extent.

    I (for one) don’t want to see this site hijacked by the sorts of thing which have neutered PhxP. Alex isn’t trying to gather people around himself or to pretend that he’s their Internet pastor. This is not a mutual admiration society. As much as I like hanging out with the people here and would love to meet them in person, I don’t want to go down the path of the E-fests, etc.

    We are the refuse of CCs, PhxP, etc. I hope that this group always remains salt and sandpaper – abrasive, brash, annoying to the powers that be. And I hope when the time comes the group closes.

  270. Following on my own thoughts for what they are worth.

    I’d really like to hear from the people who lurk here and have lost their faith due to Calvary Chapel. I promise I won’t try to evangelize you back to the faith.

    I have both a close friend and a relative who both lost their faith when 1981 failed to happen. I think some of the worst fruit of CC is the large number of people I knew when I lived in OC that had lost their faith due to trusting Chuck Smith and his false teachings and the false community of CC.

    I don’t want to see this group ever become what PhxP and CC are. To me they have become memorials to themselves. When you go to CC you remember the place you were saved and fed as a new Christian. It’s like going back to visit grandma who used to always have a plate of cookies and a word of encouragement for you. I hope that this group never becomes that and that Alex has the good sense to keep it from happening. I think he does.

    It all reminds me of the apostle’s response on the mount of transfiguration:

    Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    Hopefully someone else gets what I am getting at. As neat as that moment was, it had to pass.

    We don’t need to set up a memorial to ourselves. Just as Michael told Alex that he needed to create his own blog to discuss abuse issues in CC, I’d like to say that there are other groups which exist to fellowship with each other.

  271. Doug…in general and for the most part I agree with you. This blog exists to mainly communicate what was not allowed in a Matthew 18 process. At some point, it will have reached its usefulness, then it should transform or vanish.

    I am also aware that this blog has given a voice to many who have been silenced by oppressive acts, and disillusioned hearts. They are finding a certain amount of healing here, and that is an unintended consequence we can thank the Lord for. This is a limited form of fellowship that some have been hungering for. I just pray that they will be able to reunite with a fellowship of believers that are not vitual to experience christian community once again.

    Thanks for your words Doug, and your faithful service to expose the truth. God has used many sources to get the work this far, and he is using many others we don’t see.

  272. WA – “I just pray that they will be able to reunite with a fellowship of believers that are not vitual to experience christian community once again. ”

    You said what I wanted to say but failed. Thank you.

  273. Alex- I worked on a very lengthy post for the prayer section and I think it got lost in cyberspace…

  274. Thanks Doug for saying waht needed to be said! in 274 … Long Live the Refuse Blog!

  275. Re: Doug @ 274 & Wide Awake @ 276

    Doug- “The purpose of this group is … to expose the structural problems in CC which lead it to be a place people are abused. … this is not a mutual admiration society. As much as I … would love to meet them in person, I don’t want to go down the path of the E-fests, etc.”

    “We are the refuse of CCs, PhxP, etc. I hope that this group always remains salt and sandpaper …. And I hope when the time comes the group closes.”

    Wide Awake – “This blog exists to mainly communicate what was not allowed in a Matthew 18 process. At some point, it will have reached its usefulness, then it should transform or vanish.”

    ” … this blog has given a voice to many who have been silenced …”

    ***************************

    This is EXACTLY what I’ve been thinking and fumbling around trying to put words to it.

  276. Q said in #209:

    <>

    BINGO!!!!!!! And this is exactly why what is going on at CCV is so dangerous, unhealthy, and WRONG. And if it’s happening at CCV, it’s probably happening at many other CC’s.

    You know, I’ve been to many wonderful CC’s that operate with good accountability. I am getting to the point where I don’t ever even want to go to ANY CC because their church model opens the door for a corrupt person (like Bob Grenier) to abuse people and the church. There needs to be some big changes in the CC system. The church “movement” has some awesome points in their positions (expository teaching, teaching JUST the bible, authority of scripture), but then again, so do many others.

  277. #271 – Janelle – love that song – thank you for posting it!! Off to work

  278. Sorry, not sure what happened to what I quoted. In my #281, I was quoting Q in his #209. I’ll try again:

    “Meaningful accountability from peers on equal footing should be able to bring a person back to what they are suppose to be doing and the way they are suppose to do it or rebuke them publically. Like Paul reproving Peter.

    Peers have a way of keeping us in reality.

    If you can fire your accountability and all assets are in your name and no one else will listen it’s not meaningful accountability.”

  279. Doug G said, “The purpose of this group is not fellowship, per se. It is not here so that we pretend this is a church. Nor is the purpose anything other than people who are drawn together by a common cause – to expose the structural problems in CC which lead it to be a place people are abused. We have the sort of fellowship of common experience, but we are not here to be friends or create a community. That is what PhxP is now and it serves that purpose to some extent.”

    Very true. The Primary Purpose is as Doug stated, at least for me.

    Of course there will naturally be some fellowship and interaction along those lines, we’re human beings.

    However, I’m not a Pastor, I’m not qualified, which means I’m not called for that role. I can share the Gospel (evangelize) and I can call Leaders to accountability.

    I think Michael made the conscious decision to “neuter” himself in terms of transitioning into a Community rather than a Watchdog. Michael IS a Pastor, and a good one, IMO. He’s had a different vision for PhxP for awhile and he’s been quite successful in meeting the new goals and vision (despite his heart for the abused, which includes me in spades, which has actually hindered many times his new goal which I am feeling bad for today.

    The man has stuck his neck out for me time and again, and I’ve done things like dominating threads etc that I shouldn’t have done and am sorry for). I have apologized to him publicly and privately and I’ve stopped posting as much (fruits of repentance) and I’ll steer clear of CC stuff over there, unless that is the Topic of the Thread (which I’ve been doing as well).

    Over here, different blog. CC is on topic all the time. The two Blog authors are friends, the two Blogs are on the same Team.

    You guys are all adults and can process all this however you want and can express yourself however you want (minus threats, or way over the line stuff).

    I appreciate the diversity of voices and personalities and I do agree with Doug G that we are united in one particular goal: Repentance of Calvary Chapel and their Leadership for things that are way wrong.

  280. Michael wanted me to do this over here and not at PxP. He supports what’s being done here.

    I didn’t really make the full transition until recently, I just didn’t get it. I wanted to still participate at PxP and deal with the CC stuff there as well and I like(d) being a part of that Community.

    But, it clearly wasn’t going well and ticked a lot of regulars off and put Michael in a difficult position (my bad).

    I think that’s resolved now. The Boundaries are more clearly defined in terms of CC Rules of the Road over there and Thread Jacking / Too many posts etc.

  281. I have lots of posts to respond to, but I want to join in on the praying right now. Just want those who addressed me to know that I will respond, just later.

    Some had responses to my posts that appeared to miss my intended meaning; so instead of my responding right away, I allowed some time to pass and then went back to take another look, not at what was technically written, but tried to hear intent. Not easy to do in this method of communication. Please know that I’m making an effort. When all we have is words, it’s much harder to “hear” one another.

    Like to Welcome Anonymous and Q! I agree with your contribution @ 263 – 266. Systemic!

  282. Re: Anonymous @ 263:

    Is Hendersonville where Brian Michaels went?

    He left Colorado Springs to go to his Dad’s church in Las Vegas; but was then church disciplined. Before his restoration process was up, he asked to be removed from the process and started his own church not far from his dad’s. Since then, he’s been flying back to Colorado every week to try and plant a church there, as well. Satellite church? Not sure? Do you have information about this?

  283. I still don’t give the Calvary Chapel pastors over there a pass though.

    I think many of them have passed the man beaten up on the side of the road:

    Luke 10:25-37

    The parable of the Good Samaritan is very appropriate, IMO for many of those guys who claim to be concerned for the abused of Calvary Chapel.

    “Be warm and be filled!” But they are too busy, “not my problem”, “can’t do a thing”, “I don’t have the authority”, etc etc etc.

    They excel at excuses and deflecting responsibility for doing anything practical.

    I have no use for that kind of “Pastor”.

    If this kind of stuff went on in my “In Fellowship” and my name was listed on a Public Website as being “IN FELLOWSHIP” with a guy like Bob Grenier, I’d be on a plane to Visalia or to Costa Mesa and I’d make sure the situation was resolved or my name was counted as one who is NOT “in Fellowship” with this lying unrepentant scoundrel.

  284. One last post over here.

    Re: Alex @ 284 & 285

    I think I had some “ruffled feathers” with Pxp from not having any way to know what the rules were. Even with reading it for awhile before posting, I still had a wrong impression. As an idealist, I suppose I expected someone to calmly explain it to me if they saw I needed some “adjusting.” But communication is not always very idealistic, is it.

    I, very much, appreciate Michael’s continued support of you, Alex. It didn’t come across that way when I was reading Pxp, but you’ve made this clear.

    All on the SAME TEAM in the big picture: For Jesus Christ, against abuse.
    Even Paul and JohnMark worked together again!

  285. Brian is not in Henderson. He has a wonderful church in Vegas and another in Colorado, not a satellite. This isn’t really about him and lets stick to the FACTS of what this blog is about. What happened with Brian and Jeanine is not anything like what you think. I know them personally and I know the facts. In fact, Brian and his wife and children are just another fallout of the way Calvary does things and he know longer has parents and his children no longer have grandparents because of being shunned. It’s sickening.

  286. Alex, I share your desire to see your step father brought to accountability either through repentance or outside means. I agree the Moses model leads to all sorts of problems and that needs to be addressed in a meaningful way.

    Michael has said many CC’ pastors have taken steps to make themselves more accountable as a result of his blog. That’s a good report. Some would argue that that doesn’t go far enough and they need to do even more. Obviously people are going to disagree which is understandable.

    I am not here to disrupt your blog or somehow hijack what you are trying to do and will conduct myself as you ask. This is your blog and you have the final say. If I overstepped by sharing my story please let me know.

    My intention for sharing was to simply put a story and some humanity behind the Erunner user name. Nothing more. Nothing less. I believe there is much to be gained by community while at the same time staying true to your mission statement. There are wounded people reading and posting and maybe a bit of community can be a good thing.

    You have folks who have landed in healthy churches and you have others who are without a church home now who desire fellowship in a place where they can feel safe while at the same time exercising their gifts as they desire. You aren’t here to start a church list but if folks hook up with someone and the result is they are plugged back into a healthy environment that is going to be fruit from this ministry although that’s not your focus.

    Michael chose to go in a different direction some time back which is what he believes God led him to do. Many might not like that he has “softened” some but he’s following his convictions.

    The emphasis today on prayer is another step towards community IMO. Prayer for a common goal has a way of bringing people closer together.

    Again, a sense of community can co-exist with the reason this blog is here. I can only see it making this place even more effective. This is your blog and I’m not here to try and undermine anything. I was abrasive as anyone here at one time but I’ve tried to leave that in my past. If I’ve overstepped let me know. And I’ll respond as you desire.

  287. Oh, gotta get to prayer but …

    Re: Summer

    Thanks. I appreciate you telling me. I’d like to know the facts. I know that many have avoided his Colorado church because the information many people have been told is that he removed himself from the restoration process.

    Monument (where this church plant is) is in the back yard of New Life Church, where Ted Haggard was pastor before his fall. He removed himself from his restoration process and as a result there’s been much turmoil over his new church plant, too.

    Monument is next door to Colorado Springs, where a gazillion para-church organizations have their home base. I am involved with one which is one reason why I hear about such things. People I know are affected by this. If you have some facts that can help get the truth out, to clear Brian Michael’s name, that would be a plus.

  288. E-runner
    God worked out your abrasiveness on a blog and he will work this out in others if need be.
    Trust that.
    We are all a work in progress.

    I like this quote:
    “Only dead fish swim with the stream”

  289. Grateful, I really don’t feel at liberty to say, but I think that if you contacted Brian he would talk to you, at least I hope he would. Then you could make your own decision on what to think and do regarding this.

  290. E, you’re free to express yourself here. I may respond to some of it, I might not agree with all of it, but you can express it no prob.

  291. E, I’m glad you’re here as you are well-qualified to help in areas I’m not.

    I’m a hammer, you are a band-aid and salve.

    I agree that we can fellowship here as fellow humans, believers, etc, while dealing with the main issues with regards to Calvary Chapel.

  292. Summer @ 290

    I don’t post a bunch here but try to keep up with the posts and support Alex in his quest to see some justice administered in his situation. I’ve corresponded privately with Alex a bit and he knows a little about my experiences with CC.

    That being said…I about puked when you said Brian Michaels is the fallout of the CC system. I know Brian as well and he is nothing but someone suffering from “Small Man Syndrome”. He in fact is a product of the CC system and someone who perpetuated the system of spiritual abuse. The fact that he is no longer affiliated with CC is immaterial in my opinion. I have no doubt that he will just carry on the legacy of that abuse in his new “non-denominational”-denomination.

    He’s got what he’s got because that’s exactly what he was teaching. He was pivotal in destroying a 25 yr friendship of mine because of the poison he planted in the mind of my friend (a new CC pastor) against me or anyone who would question the tactics of the CC way.

    When I wrote Brian after my “Church Boarding” experience to tell him to expect things to get worse after I left our local CC, he wrote back that I “need a spanking”. Now tell me, what kind of pastor tells someone who is loosing a close friend in a very emotionally charged situation something like that? I say “Bring it on Brian if you think you have the sack”.

    Don’t worry, I’m not going to start my own blog to go after Michaels. But he better hope we never pass each other on the street. Make no mistake, Brian Michaels is just another spiritual bully masquerading as a pastor.

  293. Greg, I have no doubt that what you say is true. I believe you. I hope he has changed since then. I don’t know about how he runs things, most guys who have those big churches are as you say, imo. I think he has been humbled definitely.

    Sorry to bring it up. Blessings and love to you.

  294. Also, Greg. I never participated in any ministry with him. My experiences have been outside the church, although I have visited his churches. I will say that his family has suffered and is suffering from the effects of the CC system. Maybe he got his own medicine.

  295. It is so strange to me that Chuck has taken the position he has, when he “disaffiliated” his own son, Chuck Jr., about five years ago when Chuck Jr. started going down the emergent church path. He basically “pulled the Dove” from Capo Beach Calvary (which used to be Calvary Chapel of Capo Beach), even though they didn’t have the maranatha dove anywhere on their premises. So I can’t even comprehend how he wouldn’t do the same to Bob Grenier whose conduct is egregious in comparison with Chuck’s own son’s, who simply chose to go down a slightly different pathway of faith. I am saddened by Chuck Sr.’s actions. I am sure he is just having his attorney tell him what to do, which in many cases, is not the Biblical way. I have seen that happen before. It’s all about protecting the church, and the church becomes more important that individuals.

  296. What Doug said in 274 gets a hearty AMEN from me! I don’t want this to turn into another neutered PhxP situation. I appreciate the truth here, and I would hate to see that change.

  297. Re: White Horses

    It is strange. I agree

    Even if it’s his lawyers advice he’s acting upon, Chuck should know when advice is contrary to what’s already clear in Scripture. He’s still responsible.

  298. Here’s some quick responses to some posts from yesterday:

    Re:
    Not Alone @ 132 My 1000 words to your 10. ;) Thanks!

    Dusty @ 133 “Role reversal” – I guess none of us are objective about ourselves. Enjoyed the exchange.

    Wendy @ 144 Ouch! Sorry that happened to you.

    Wide Awake @ 146 & usticejay @ 173 To conduct vigorous debate without getting easily offended is very French. With the French I had to relearn how to discuss subjects. You place your idea on the table. The French chop it to pieces and if any morsel is left standing they compliment you on a good idea. This used to be painful, but now I prefer it because they don’t take anything personally and keep within the rules of having to use valid arguments. It sounds wild to listen to it, but it’s actually very civil … much more than my experience with American “debates”.

    Guru @ 147 & 152 God can take it when we are in process and don’t feel we can trust Him. I think of it as a time when we are being melted, dross removed, and then get reshaped more into the image of Jesus. At least, that’s how it felt to me when I “lost” my faith. But, as you know, your eyes will never be on man, again. It’s a much safer and more healthy place to be.

    Alex @ 149 “Jesus kicked ass and took names!” ROTFLOL! :)

    FG @ 166 How did your meeting go?

  299. Summer,

    I appreciate your input and I too hope he has changed. As far as being humbled all I can say is he hasn’t been humbled enough to offer any apology to me.

    After years of my attempts to reach out for reconciliation to my former pastor friend I have received nothing but road blocks and silence. While, as far as my information is currently, Brian Michaels and my “friend” are still close. At least I have no confusion about where I stand with either of them anymore.

  300. Re: Erunner @ 134

    I think you did a great job of working things out, which is why when I was asked about it I did not repeat your name.

    I’m sorry if I misrepresented you in any way. It wasn’t my intention. Communication is often difficult. The following may be helpful in showing why I may have had a wrong impression as to the intent of your words:

    From Roph blog post:
    Erunner says: @ 61
    September 25, 2011 at 5:30 pm
    “Why don’t you all lay off of Dave Rolph? He’s put time into this mess to try and be helpful … Maybe some credit should be extended to Dave for his efforts along the way??”

    From OC blog post:
    Erunner says: @ 134
    September 28, 2011 at 8:29 am
    “I did not say or even imply to not discuss Dave Rolph. My objection was to HOW he was being discussed.”
    “I feel I’m being misrepresented.”

    It may not have been your intention, but I interpreted, “lay off Dave” as you telling us to stop discussing him.

    Erunner said, “… you are fixated on the idea that because I consider Dave a friend, (though not a close one ) that undermines my concerns.”

    I think my intent was to point out that I’ve read many people use that defense (both with the Rolph subject and with others) and how friendship, or even good character, don’t establish or remove current guilt. Maybe I thought you implied it?

    What I do know is that I did not hear a reason from you, or others, that was persuasive to me. Dave’s efforts are appreciated, but that doesn’t remove his guilt. Dave’s caring heart is applaudable, but again doesn’t change that he blamed Alex and was “creative” about his understanding of “affiliation.” We were discussing how CC handled Alex, and Dave’s recent actions were a part of that discussion, legitimately, imo.

    Again, sorry if I misrepresented you, misinterpreted you, or was in any way lacking in my communication with you. Not my intent, but it does go with this territory. Erunner, I appreciate your willingness to work things out!

  301. Grateful, Thanks for the welcome and feedback.

  302. Alex, Thanks.

    Grateful, I appreciate your reply. My comment was not meant to stop discussion of Dave. I believe the thread had to do with Dave specifically so it makes sense he was going to be spoken about.

    Communication can be difficult on a forum like this. I’ve seen it happen a lot.

    A few of my posts haven’t been received well by some which I can handle. But I’m not here to be a distraction or be a trouble maker. I have no idea how much I will post going forward so we’ll see how that goes.

    Again, thanks for your reply.

  303. Re: Greg @ 297

    Thanks for your take on it. I know some who live around there, both pro and con CC are non too happy with BM. I don’t know the person or the facts, myself.

  304. WH #300 – Not sure about everyone’s thoughts on this, but it sure seems to me that Bob Grenier has some dirt on CS or others who are closely associated to the inner circle of CCCM. IMHO, if I were thinking like the Anti-Christ that Bob is, I would basically say at the pastors retreat in that small room with the inner-boys, “if you take me down, all of you go with me and I will see to it!” I don’t think Bob is an idiot. Quite the contrary. — Now Bob, don’t let your head swell any bigger as that is NOT a compliment — If there is evidence of any sort of illegal, immoral, ethical wrongdoing, I’m sure Bob knows about it and would use that to “deal” with anyone who messes with him (speaking of those CC’s affiliated… I mean, in fellowship) :shock:

    At least this thought process seems logical and helps me “get” why nothing is being done.

    Great #303 – Didn’t know the French were that way, but it’s also Irish and Israeli and the multi-flavored American’s we are. It just seems so much easier and you build trust VERY fast this way. You know who is blowing smoke and who is trustworthy. :-)

  305. Grateful @ 308

    I’m just saying I wouldn’t trust him. He’s just an arrogant little twerp.

  306. Alex – any interest in making a page on the Ministry of an Assisting Pastor by Larry Taylor that I emailed you?

    I think it would give people into the groupthink mindset of people like Rolph.

  307. Alex said in #296:

    “I’m a hammer, you are a band-aid and salve.”

    If people here met you they would see a much softer side! ;)

    “I agree that we can fellowship here as fellow humans, believers, etc, while dealing with the main issues with regards to Calvary Chapel.”

    I’ve always appreciated that about you, Alex. You are open and willing to hear another opinion and base friendships on character and not on differences of opinions or ideas. So glad you never learned those qualities from BG. So glad God has shown you the way out of there. You have a real angel in your home up there in Idaho. :) Someone I know still can’t understand why there are no horns on her head. So contrary to the lies being told….

    BUT the good news is, God WILL be glorified as we continue to look to Him as we prayerfully make the decisions He would use us to make. I know in all my being that this fight is necessary. People have buried their heads in the sand and their apathy is very sad. Their apathy is enabling the abused to keep getting abused. Doing nothing when you have the means to do something to address a biblical matter is wrong, and perhaps sinful.

    There is only so much you leave in God’s hands before you do something yourself to be the vehicle that He may want to use in order to do His will. It’s like knowing your neighbor is killing people and burying the bodies in the backyard, or a neighbor beating his wife and kids until bloody and just putting in God’s hands instead of doing anything because it’s a “private family matter.” Oh wait, but if someone worked for a secular company and they SAW illegal and abusive things happening continually, do you really think they would leave that in God’s hands and stay at this job? Why is it different at church? Sin is sin. Law breaking is law breaking.

    Bob sure does a good job of keeping his flock well conditioned on that whole “gossip and slander” idea. Their heads are buried so far into the sand that they are blind. So glad He has opened my eyes.

    Guess what people? The right thing to do isn’t always the most popular thing to do. But guess what? We don’t live in this world to earn approval from man. We live in this world to please God by abiding with Him, obeying Him, and following HIM only!

    Let us seek the Lord and do as He is leading us!

  308. Re: Doug

    Can’t the mindset of the ministry of the Assistant CC pastor, as per their distinctives mandate, be summed up by:

    Emasculate themselves
    Honor the king/Pastor
    Work as slaves, with about as much pay
    Hear no evil, See no evil, and check your integrity at the door as you stand up for your pastor in all situations, no matter how much he lies, intimidates, etc…

    Am I in the ballpark?

  309. RE: Doug’s comments here:

    “Alex – any interest in making a page on the Ministry of an Assisting Pastor by Larry Taylor that I emailed you?

    I think it would give people into the groupthink mindset of people like Rolph.”

    EXACTLY!

    This groupthink Booklet by Mr. Taylor is the kernel of truth needed to understand several things: (1) Mr. Rolph’s yes-man stance (2) and the CC stonewall techniques, (3) and to see perhaps the motivation behind Mr. Smith’s desire for a meeting: namely, to survey the landscape for future legal implications and to expose other possible names for whatever ends Mr. Smith desires.

    When I re-read this booklet it almost bring tears to my eyes .. so much abuse, fear, etc. all in the name of a Nicolaitan spirit. Where is the love, the transparency, the accountability of leadership? To be fair, I really do believe that Mr. Rolph has good desires and loves Alex. He has handicapped himself.

  310. ONe other thing: Mr. Smith’s mindset and behavior, may???, reflect mentation changes of age: namely, subtle eary dementia? or residual effects from his stroke. We all are too far removed to be certain, and for his sake, I hope not.

  311. Justice said, “If people here met you they would see a much softer side! :smile:

    Thanks Justice. In most contexts I’m a pretty nice guy…like when I hang out with new friends :smile:

    In confrontational situations, not so much, which fortunately is only once in awhile in the store (have had to remove a drunk guy, confiscate a firearm from a thief, help a woman who was being beaten up by her husband, handle a guy who said his brother would blow up the store, and show my gun to a guy who was going to try and rob us.

    …and, of course, the Bob stuff.

    Other than that, I’m am a softy…especially with my wife and kids and friends :smile:

  312. Justice, thank you. Yes, my wife saved my life. She is an angel. I thank God for her and that He healed our marriage and brought me to repentance.

    And a giant AMEN to your post.

  313. Doug G, sounds good. I’ll make it happen, thanks.

  314. Justice your #312…..I’ve had to rethink so much that I heard there. I’m ashamed to say that I would even listen to the lies. Of course, at the time, I had the, “Devil is trying to ruin CCV”,” we’re being attacked by the enemy,” mentality! I’m happy to hear that Amy is an angel. Alex is blessed.

  315. Summer,

    Isn’t it crazy how clear things are once you’ve left and you begin attending a healthy church? For me, it’s like a cloud has lifted and I have found myself ashamed before the Lord for ever being involved there. My spiritual life withered listening to “simple” teachings and seeing terrible examples in the leadership. It may sound weird, but there is a subtle brain washing going on there. They lead you to believe EVERY staff member or church member who has left is crazy, lazy, back stabbers, etc. And they have no shame in speaking bad about any former person. Even other pastor’s in the community. If you don’t go to church there, you are cast out like a piece of trash. None of them can accept the concept that people want to follow the LORD’S leading in their lives. The spirit is really quenched there and no real ministry happens. Way too many events. It’s all fluff. No one is being discipled and that is why It’s dead.

    Thank you Lord for bringing me to a better place spiritually! I feel closer to the Lord now more than ever. I don’t know why he led me to that church, but I am glad the Lord showed me to move on. It has been on of the best decision I have ever made.

  316. Alex,

    Too bad you don’t live in So Cal, I used to train in Muay Thai kick boxing and I am currently looking for a training partner. I trained for two years but not to fight, I felt even then that I was to old for that (33 in 2007). The best workouts I ever had were at the Valdez Gym. I stopped because it was too expensive for me at the time but I have since bought a kick boxing bag so I am ready to train again.

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