Oct 032013
 
Chuck Smith, co-founder of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination, has died as a result of complications from a battle with lung cancer. He was 86-years-old.

Chuck Smith, co-founder of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination, has died as a result of complications from a battle with lung cancer. He was 86-years-old.

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel fame has died in the early morning of October 3, 2013 according to daughter Janette Smith Manderson. Chuck Smith has been battling lung cancer since he was diagnosed with it in late 2011.

My feelings are mixed.

Some of the last words I heard from Chuck Smith were his calling down God’s judgment on me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit in classic “Touch not God’s anointed!” form.

Full audio of the public rebuke and warning here:

 

From Chuck Smith’s public rebuke of me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit:

“There is a young fellow…who has created a website…a blog…in which he has been attacking me and Calvary Chapel viciously because his step-father was abusive to him as he was growing up…and he is wanting to bring his step-father down. And…so because I won’t take action against his step-father…because I, really…every Calvary Chapel is independent…I’m not in control of them…nor do I want control of them…I have a hard enough time just being in control of my own ministry. And, I just don’t want to have the responsibility of having to try and control the over 1,500 Calvary Chapels we have in the United States….so he is attacking me also on the blog and saying that I’m covering up all kinds of horrible things and making a lot of accusations and all…”

“…and I called him up and invited him down [this is factually incorrect, I first called Chuck Smith at his office and then reached him live at his home]…to try and sort of make peace if possible.”

“So, I promised him I would look into the situation…and I did…and then I wrote to him a response…and I sent it to his email address…but somehow it didn’t go through. And, it was endeavor on my part for reconciliation…but the email didn’t go through…I don’t know why…and I gave it a couple shots…and it didn’t go through….so I just sort of let it go…so he became really upset that I didn’t respond to his charges and so-forth against me…”

“So I was thinking…what can I do…and how can I defend myself…against all of these charges which are false and lies…and things that he is putting out on his blogsite. As we were finishing here tonight…as I was in my final prayer…the Lord just of spoke to me and said ‘look you’re praying that you’ll learn to turn things over to the Lord…let me fight your battles…and here you’re considering how you can deal with it…just leave it with me. I thought oh yes…and so….[pause, clapping]….I’m thankful for the help of the Lord”

“…and you know, I feel sorry for the guy. BECAUSE, WHAT I COULD DO WOULDN’T HURT MUCH…BUT I TELL YOU..WHAT THE LORD WILL DO…I CAN REALLY…UM…YOU KNOW…WELL…I’M GLAD I HAVE THE LORD ON MY SIDE.

I publicly stated on this blog after hearing that very sobering and hurtful “Touch not God’s anointed” chilling warning from the very powerful and influential Chuck Smith…something that would have rocked most people hearing that chilling warning that “God is on my side and he’ll zap  you!”…I had a feeling Chuck had called down a curse on himself, if God was in fact real, as I knew I was right in these matters.

Chuck Smith was diagnosed with Lung Cancer about a month or so after this public rebuke of me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit.

I then commented publicly that I had a feeling the cancer would kill him, despite the happy and optimistic updates from his daughter and all the prayers for his healing etc…unless Chuck repented of his lying and his wrong handling of this situation and his wrong public rebuke and warning to me…when he and BG were in the wrong.

Well, the cancer has killed him and Chuck Smith died without repenting of this situation and without coming clean and without seeking reconciliation with me…other than some email that’s lost in cyberspace (according to him).

Calvary Chapel Pastors: Let this be a lesson to you. If you truly believe the “Touch not God’s anointed” garbage…if you truly believe God is “on your side” and you truly believe that critics and those who call you to accountability and responsibility are “of the devil” and that God will zap them for you….then what do you make of this situation? Coincidence? Random chance? Or did God do this as a public statement of who was right and who was wrong?

As a skeptic, I think it’s random chance and just a huge, though very very big, coincidence. I don’t think Chuck Smith or you as a Calvary Chapel pastor are “specially anointed” nor do I think that God will zap your enemies for you, etc. But, what if that dynamic is real? What if God is real and God does step in and zap folks sometimes, like Ananias and Saphira? If it’s true, then what are the odds this is coincidence? Again, I think it’s random chance, I don’t think God is active in this manner…BUT YOU AND YOUR DEAR LEADER DO and have expressed this dynamic and used this “Touch not God’s anointed” warning many times…believing that God does intervene sometimes and does punish folks sometimes in these sorts of matters.

So, what do you believe now? I’m sure the Chuck Smith “faithful” will be as skeptical as Richard Dawkins and any atheist and mark this one down as “random chance” and “coincidence” and “no connection whatsoever”…because the victim, this time, was their guy, their Dear Leader…and no way their Dear Leader could be wrong or could be lying or in sin etc. No way, not a chance.

If you embrace “Touch not God’s anointed!” as Chuck Smith both practiced and professed (see the Christianity Today article where he gives a chilling warning to the reporter and even quotes the verse about ‘touch not God’s anointed, do my prophet no harm’)….then circumstances around Chuck’s handling of the BG situation and Chuck’s subsequent cancer and death should chill you to your core.

My guess is you Calvary Chapel guys are full of s**t and you only profess a belief in spiritual things when it supports your narrative and your leaders and your business….God does all sorts of stuff in circumstances when it fits your agenda..otherwise everything is just random coincidence.

To the family of Chuck Smith, especially Chuck Smith Jr. (who is a great guy)…I’m sorry for your loss. Chuck had many good qualities. He was a mix of good and bad like we all are. He did a lot of good while he was on this planet…and unfortunately, he was also human like the rest of us and did some bad stuff as well. Net-net, I think Chuck as a man was a decent guy, not perfect, but decent. I think the position, the power, the Chuck-worship was a lot of temptation for him and I think that sort of power corrupted him over time, but he wasn’t near as bad as many others who have reached similar success. I think Chuck helped a lot of folks and I think, from what I’ve gathered, he treated you kids well and was a good husband. My beef with your Pops was the Machine he created and his propagation of particular mythology like the “Touch not God’s anointed” crap…and the Moses Model dynamic in the form of the CC pastors are “special” and privileged and God is “on their side” and will zap their enemies. That is dangerous stuff…and it’s the reason I drive this particular point home so strongly. Chuck was not “specially anointed”…he was talented. God was not on Chuck’s side, nor was he against Chuck.

Let my example dispel the myth of “Touch not God’s anointed” and Moses Model CC pastors are “special” and God is on their side. God will not zap you for questioning them and challenging them and calling their b.s. If you don’t believe that, Calvary Chapel-ites, then I must be “specially anointed” as God zapped Chuck and not me (if your theory is true). I am not specially anointed, therefore Chuck’s and Calvary Chapel’s thing is a myth. Run from it. Don’t repeat it. Let all that garbage and nonsense die with Chuck.

Wishing the family peace in their time of grief, wishing the Calvary Chapel pastor progeny of Chuck Smith repentance of their error and a new course for the future.

UPDATE: OK, I will say this…Chuck Smith Sr. seemed to be a great dad, which to me, will be the best part of his Legacy. He had some difficult kids…one is just plain difficult (yet Chuck always maintained a relationship with him and gave him lots of grace)…another kid had major philosophical differences that brought down a lot of heat on the Old Man and his church (even to this day). Chuck Sr. protected and maintained a good relationship with that son as well. This, to me, is Chuck Smith at his best and it is one of the very positive things I will remember about him.

 Posted by at 6:40 am

  615 Responses to “Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel dead at 86. Daughter reports the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pastor and leader of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination has passed as a result of his battle with lung cancer.”

  1. Alex,
    I think your analysis is spot on.
    I’m hoping this day will be a glorious one for our fellow traveler ChuckSr, that he is welcomed by Jesus as you and I know Him from The Gospels, the One who bid all people to come unto Him.
    I’m also hoping this day unfolds as a new chapter for you.
    May you continue to find peace as you choose a faith that is both reasonable and full of mystery which inspires you.

  2. G, agreed, I think Chuck’s doctrine and theology and imperfection is out the window now…and he now knows the Truth. God is love and God is good…and Chuck, in whatever form, has been reconciled.

  3. Hang in there Alex. Watch out for the ones who will be picking fights with you.

    Hug your wife & kids. They’re the ones who matter most for you, but then you already know that.

  4. Hey Doug G,
    Reaching out to you too.
    Peace.

  5. Thanks G, good reminders.

  6. I think you wrote all you’re own comments. You are blind to true forgiveness.

  7. Other Alex, not sure what you mean by that. I write comments with my moniker.

    Please qualify your moniker so there is a difference in our monikers, like “other alex” or “alex” and initial of your last name or a different name altogether of whatever you want.

  8. Other Alex, actually, I’m not sure about “forgiveness”.

    According to Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel type fundamentalists, you have to confess and repent to get “forgiveness” or you are tortured in hell forever by God (according to them).

    And, the bible has a contradictory narrative regarding this issue as well:

    Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.–KJV (Chuck Smith’s approved bible version)

    Notice the “if” in there…what do you make of that?

    If we are to Unilaterally and Unconditionally “forgive” as you are asserting, then God doesn’t send folks to hell, which is a Universal Reconciliation position…which I agree with.

    If you say I need to “forgive” without precondition, without any confession or repentance on the part of the offender, then you are really a Universalist, you just don’t realize it.

  9. […] article is cross-posted by permission from Alex Grenier’s blog, Calvary Chapel Abuse.  As some of you may recall, Alex Grenier was raised by his father and Calvary Chapel pastor, […]

  10. Holy cow, Alex – 800 visitors online! Crazy!

    Here is part of what I just posted on a private Facebook group which deals with abuse:

    Calvary Chapel founder Pastor Chuck Smith died early this morning. Chuck Smith was part of a powerful empire of churches in which there were all kinds of abuse cover-ups.

    Last spring, I formed a team (WhoWouldJesusSue) to bring media attention to a lawsuit. CC Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier is suing his son, Alex, and a former member for defamation (currently in the appeal process).

    What did Alex do? He spoke out about abuses: his own, his brother’, staff members at church, former members, etc. He formed Calvary Chapel Abuse blog and scores and scores of people have come forward and shared their stories of spiritual, sexual abuse, etc. If you check out the blog, you will normally find at least 150 people on the site at any given time. Folks, there are a lot of people interested in the abuse going on at CC, but nothing is being done.

    The “WhoWouldJesusSue” team that I formed did a media blitz. Unfortunately, we did not get many hits from the media. I was just reminded that Alex and I both interviewed with New York Times and I told the reporter that I believed that the abuses among evangelical/protestant churches to far surpass those in the Catholic church because they can hide in independent churches with no hierarchical structure. It’s odd that the media did not take the story after doing hours of interviews.

    While many are mourning the loss of Chuck Smith, my mind drifts to the scores and scores of people who have been victims in the Calvary Chapel churches who have been silenced. They go to church week after week doing crazy things in their mind, wondering where God is in all of this, are they making it up, etc. Many leave church altogether.

    Here are articles I have done on Alex’s situation in which Chuck Smith did virtually nothing:

    Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, The Moses Model: Let the Little Dogs Bark!
    Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier: Stories of Abuse As Told by His Children
    Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier Files Lawsuit against ..
    Alex Grenier Responds to Notice of Imminent Lawsuit by Calvary Chapel Visalia & Pastor Bob Grenier

  11. Thanks Julie Anne, that’s well put and good stuff, much appreciated.

  12. Like it or not, this situation will be a permanent and historical part of Chuck Smith’s and Calvary Chapel’s Legacy.

  13. dang bro you really need to get over it. .move on and get a life

  14. so God is punishing chuck smith by bringing him home, to a place of paradise, heaven. I think alex you really need to visit some bed sides of people that are dying believers and non believers and just watch the difference of non believers going into darkness forever and believers being accepted by loving father home. I don’t think that’s punishment it all, sounds like graduation to me

  15. RIP Chuck Smith. I didn’t agree on much of your bible interpretation, but we both agreed on John 3:16.

    The truth is, you have not died, but merely shed a cocoon. Enjoy flying.

  16. freddy said, “you really need to get over it. .move on and get a life”

    Don’t know whether you were being serious or making a joke as that is what Chuck told me in the live radio interview (Google “Phone call to Chuck Smith in his own words” or “Chuck Smith phone call that changed everything”)

    If it was a joke, LOL!

    If it was serious, you should listen to the radio interview with me and Chuck and you’ll see why your comment is so funny.

  17. Alex, yes the Lord took Pastor Chuck home instead of you. I would hope that you, at some point in your life, realize that it’s by God’s mercy and grace that you have been afforded the additional time to establish that saving relationship with the Lord, instead of kicking against the goads because of wrongs that have been done to you.

  18. Shawn S. you miss the point entirely. If God is real, etc then I’m quite sure Chuck Smith made the cut…my position is that a good and loving God reconciles all in the this stage of the journey or the next.

    My main emphasis is to poke holes in the dangerous and destructive fundamentalist mindset of Chuck Smith and CC that claims they are “specially anointed” and that they have magic Jesus powers that they can call down from heaven and nuke/zap their enemies with the “Touch not God’s anointed” carpola and also the Moses Model mentality that Calvary Chapel pastors are “special” and “hear from God” and you don’t therefore you are lower on the pecking order and you should do whatever they say…and if you disagree with them you are disagreeing with God. Hogwash. That’s the point.

  19. Way to go out of your way to dispel the basic truth. The Bible states that no man is good not one. That is why you have to accept what Jesus said. He is the way and the truth. Pastor Chuck would be the 1st one to say to not look towards him. Chuck was a good example.
    Your personal agenda will never change that. It’s God grace and forgiveness and no one else. Chuck lived a long life and trying to claim that you had anything to do with his death is sick. We will all find out someday soon. I feel God used Chuck to help millions of hurting individuals around the world. That Legacy will stand forever. You spew hate. It’s nice to know that you are making a choice to do what you want. Let others do the same.

  20. Roland, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

    Chuck did some good stuff, did some bad stuff. One of the worst things was HIS doctrine of Divine Retribution and “Touch not God’s anointed” crap. I turned it around and showed it to be error and you support my thesis rather well with your “you had nothing to do with his death”…agreed. God didn’t zap Chuck, nor would God zap me for challenging Chuck, nor did God zap all the folks Chuck and other CC pastors claimed got zapped when they “touched God’s anointed”. It’s bullshit, to be blunt….so is Moses Model “CC pastors hear special from God and are closer to God than you are”. It’s not true. CC pastors are fallible men and they lie and sin all the time and they require checks and balances, not Moses Model dictatorial totalitarian CEO powers.

  21. Pastor chuck smith was anointed. God used him to get the word out to millions of people. The bible says it is appointed to everyone to die. But you need to remember to the christian it is our going home. The bible says christians are not under condemnation and we do not receive wrath. Gods wrath is not aimed at christians. Pastor chuck smith passed for one reason, his mansion was ready for him. What did or did not happen in the above case is unclear. What is clear is pastor chuck smith was a man of. God. He is with the lord and will have many crowns for a job well done.

    It is easy to speak about people when they are gone. God was with pastor chuck all his life. And now pastor chuck is with. Him.

    I only hope I’m able to do half the good pastor chuck did in this world.

  22. To all you Chuck Smith worshipers:

    Chuck had a chance to remove a child molesting pastor from one of his churches. He heard the facts and agreed that something had to be done. He then reversed his decision and called down God’s wrath on Alex. He called down that wrath because Alex revealed the details of their meeting after being sworn to silence. Chuck was more offended by Alex’s disobedience then he was by his Pastor molesting his son.

    Why? Because the wrongs done to Alex and his brothers are nothing compared to the obedience that they should have given to his leadership. So no justice for the Grenier boys.

    My hope is that Chuck is answering for protecting a child molester, thief and abusing monster of a man he supported until the end.

  23. eric said, “Pastor chuck smith was anointed.”

    How do you know for sure? Did he perform any verifiable supernatural miracles like the OT Prophets who stopped rain and called down fire from heaven or NT apostles and others who healed withered hands, walked on water or Jesus who turned water into wine?

    I am not aware that Chuck did anything remotely like that.

    I do know that Chuck promoted an incorrect view of himself and other Calvary Chapel pastors as “anointed” and “special” and prophet-like, as well as promoting a “touch not God’s anointed or God will zap you” mentality, which is cult-like and dangerous and wrong and it needs to die with Chuck.

  24. …and I spoke to Chuck about this stuff while he was still alive, many times over. I’ve challenged him and CC ad infinitum with no repentance, just status quo, stone wall and doubling down on the bad stuff (in general).

    Hopefully, as Calvary Chapel splinters into a bunch of pieces, many of the CC pastors will learn from the mistakes and cult-like garbage and not perpetuate it.

  25. I sow this on a Facebook post from a friend early and came on to see what had been posted.

    I than went on to pp to see what it had, nothing for awhile. Than a post from cs jr., that pleased my spirit, that seemed right for him to be the one there, it seemed to be God’s plan from the foundation.

    As for cs passing, when I read it on Facebook, I felt nothing…..

  26. If we are lucky Chuck left a note with instructions to remove Bob Grenier from leadership.

    Maybe in this note Chuck asked forgiveness from Alex and his brothers for not doing anything about their father.

    Maybe Chuck realized that allowing his pastor to stay in leadership at Calvary Chapel Visalia was an abomination and should be corrected. Maybe know his pastor abused his children, like only a demon possessed man could do, was something Chuck couldn’t take to glory with him.

    But maybe, just maybe, he called Jesus Lord Jesus and He knew him not. You see the bible says it would have been better to have a millstone tied around his neck and jump into the ocean then to have harmed a child.

    So is Chuck celebrating or begging for forgiveness for what he did with the power and money he maid in the name of God?

  27. It’s been written a few times now that the lawsuit is in the appeals process. I think it’s important to distinguish that the Anti-SLAPP is in appeals. The defamation suit itself has not been tried yet.

    Many (916…1164…1237…) people are reading this blog right now. To the newcomers, I suggest that you type “wizard” in the search box above to go to the eye-opening details of Chuck’s in-person meeting with Alex. Also, the “Key Data and Docs” link at the top right provides a summary of events leading up to the lawsuit.

    It is my prayer that the media will see fit to run some stories on Chuck Smith, as is typical when public figures pass on, and that the glaring abuses and cover-ups of Calvary Chapel will be exposed. I sincerely hope that the NY Times will dust off their interviews with Alex and Julie. I am reminded of how the outrage over Paul Grenier’s testimony of abuse (also in the Key Data and Docs link at top right) spurred the WWJS media blitz.

    No doubt many will be turned off by Alex’s “questioning the faith” articles since April or so, but do not let that discount the allegations of horrible wrongs committed in the Calvary Chapel system, reported here since 2010.

  28. Roland @ # 19,

    The Bible states that no man is good not one.

    The statement is simply not true in real life. There are many good people regardless of religious belief or non-religious belief. The Scriptures you reference can be taken in a selective fundamental literal fashion or they can be interpreted as hyperbolic sarcasm by the original writers to drive home an even deeper and non-superficial truth. I choose the latter approach.

  29. Pastor Eric Montgomery says,

    “It is easy to speak about people when they are gone. God was with pastor chuck all his life. And now pastor chuck is with. Him.

    I only hope I’m able to do half the good pastor chuck did in this world.”

    Nothing different is being said about Chuck now that he is dead then before. The same truths are being proclaimed.

    Maybe Chuck is with Him. Maybe he wasn’t one of the elect. But one thing is for sure. He lied. He lied from the pulpit and called down God’s wrath on the victims of one of his franchise church’s leader.

    He did not finish well. He finished a liar and a supporter of a child molester.

    That erases everything good he did in “God’s name” as far as I’m concerned.

  30. Muff, very well put and agreed.

    I heart sheck, good info and reminders of some of the main issues surrounding this blog and the controversy with Calvary Chapel

  31. With your, “My guess is you Calvary Chapel guys are full of s**t ..” comment your absolute immaturity and carnality is up in lights. I regret the time spent reading such stuff. No wonder the world says what they say about the Body of Christ. I wish I would have spent a quarter as much time in reading the Word as you have spent in constructing such a website slamming other Christians. Sad. And to have his family read such horrendous stuff as you have written. Unbelievable. You should be ashamed. You have me ashamed to say I am even affiliated with such a thing.

  32. Ya, my immaturity and carnality is legendary, well the immaturity anyways.

    Way to strain the gnat and swallow the camel there Jdilpkle.

  33. Today is Alex’s day – the day he gets to dance on Chuck Smith’s grave. Let him revel in his joy.

  34. Here is what Chuck Smith protected. This is what he covered up to save his own rotten corpse.

    An excerpt from Paul Grenier’s deposition. I assure you that it only gets worse.

    “Bob (his father Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia) did, in fact, molest me. These are extremely humiliating and painful events to be forced to share publicly, but I am left with no other choice at this point since Bob has filed this lawsuit against Alex and while I would prefer not to be involved, I will in no way let Alex’s name be tarnished for telling the truth.

    Bob began sexually molesting me at the age of five years old. These episodes began in the small shower in the bathroom that adjoined his and Gayle’s master bedroom. These abuses started with me being forced to shower with him naked against my will.

    First, I was extremely uncomfortable and always had been by Bob walking around nude in front of me with his genitals exposed. And I knew inside of me at five years old that there was something wrong with having to take a shower with Bob. I knew that this type of behavior did not occur in the homes of my friends even at a young age.

    The showers started with Bob washing me with soap and touching my genitals and my anus. I recall at least six occasions where Bob would insert his index finger inside my anus in what he would describe “to make sure I was clean.” Bob would also have me wash his genitals wherein he would be in a sexually aroused state during these episodes and at times he would not.

    On two occasions I was forced to perform oral sex on Bob. Typical to the combination of physical and sexual abuse I endured at Bob’s hands, these showers would involve scalding hot water and I remember being in pain because of the heat of the water and also scared because of what he was doing to me.”

  35. Yes by all means lets celebrate the life and times of Chuck Smith and his pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia.

    Way to go Chuck! Took it to your grave. Nice finish!

  36. MLD, that’s impossible. He isn’t buried yet.

    But I gladly dance on the memories of a man who could have done a great justice instead of saving his own butt.

  37. An obedient preacher of the Gospel. A number of us will see him again soon.
    I am sorry to see this generation passing – look at the ages of Chuck Missler, John MacArthur, Charles Clough, and many other fine Soldiers of Christ. As this generation passes, we have to ask “who will step up and carry the torch?” It won’t come from the Mark Driscoll’s and Rob Bell’s of this current generation….

    http://www.HarpazoTV.com

  38. I sincerely doubt, today especially, that Chuck’s family is passing their time by reading this blog. And as stated above, it’s nothing that hasn’t been said before. IMO, it is immature to write off someone bc they say the S-H word. Exposing unrepentant sin in the camp is not “slamming other Christians”. And for those who don’t know or might claim otherwise, Alex faithfully followed the Matthew 18′s prescription for reconciliation before initiating this website, which he and many others believe to be a viable way of “telling it to the church”.

  39. MLD, no, it’s just an opportunity to have a broader platform to deal with the very serious underlying issues of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel…and from what I’ve learned from Chuck and Calvary…you’ve got to leverage your opportunities like a shrewd biz man.

    It’s for the greater good. The message about the abuses, the abuse of power and the cult-like Moses Model dynamic and cult-like “Touch not God’s anointed” stuff and that the CC pastor is “specially anointed” and “hears directly from God” on all matters pertaining to that particular church (which is a Group of people with wives, kids, relatives etc). is dangerous stuff…and I’ll continue to use the opportunity to drive that point home again and again….and again.

    Some will listen, some won’t. Many will see that their false gods are really just men who aren’t special at all and have zero power other than paying attorneys or the power you get from money and fame.

  40. Not Understanding Why–I’m totally tracking w/your posts.

  41. Alex, your response doesn’t even warrant a comment. Swing away. So sad.

  42. Paul @ 37 “look at the ages of Chuck Missler, John MacArthur, Charles Clough, and many other fine Soldiers of Christ. As this generation passes, we have to ask “who will step up and carry the torch?”

    Hopefully Jesus Christ, so we can stop the unhealthy idolatry of man.

  43. Paul, why do we need celebrity pastors to “carry the torch?”

    I disagree with your premise. I think that dynamic is part of the problem with “the church” we have too many well-known celebrity pastors in business…err, i mean ministry.

    The day I don’t know who the pastors are will be a good day IMO.

  44. Crowned, agreed.

  45. Jdilpkle said, “Alex, your response doesn’t even warrant a comment. Swing away. So sad.”

    Um, that’s called a comment.

  46. I would encourage anyone reading this to pray for Alex, anyone spending so much time and energy devoted to hurting God’s children is full of a rage that is not from the Lord. Sometimes those who need the most love seek it in the most unloving ways. See where the real anger and spreading of lies is coming from. The Father of lies….and he’s good at his job. Pray Pray Pray, only God can humble Alex and reveal the truth to him, not us.

  47. Pray, well of course I’ve been hurt, like pretty much every human being has happen to them in life. My heart has been ripped out at the loss of the cult-like Calvary Chapel shunning technique as the result of confronting abuses etc in the home and CC franchise.

    I am not “full of rage”…I am full of passion. There’s a big difference.

    Yes, pray away. And, while you’re at it, pray that Calvary Chapel takes abuse allegations more seriously, stops teaching and practicing cult-like things that hurt lots of people and starts seeking to do what’s right in terms of church discipline with regards to their “affiliated” CC pastors etc.

  48. Besides the OC Weekly all the other media outlets are giving out the company position of a beloved leader lost.

    I wonder if Al Qaeda put out the same sort of heart felt response when Osama left this earth.

    What’s worse, sending thousands to eternity or directing millions to a false one for profit?

  49. The Good Samaritan is a great parable.

    It illustrates, In supposedly Jesus Christ’s own words, how a non-correct-religious person, a Samaritan, helped the weak and vulnerable…and it contrasted the Samaritan against the religious leaders of the day (i.e. like CC Pastors etc).

    I have gotten much more help and support from Atheists, Agnostics and Christians who are Calvary Chapel cast-offs, than I have remotely from any Calvary Chapel non-member member or affiliated official CC pastor or church.

    What i get from the CC and Chuck faithful is usually: “You’re bitter! I’m concerned for your soul and will pray for you”…which is Christianeze for “F you a-hole, God will zap you”.

    Or, I get, “Pray for Alex, he’s lost his way and God needs to humble him”…ya, and the sun is bright and shiny. I get that. What’s more important is the issues that are unresolved and you ignore those Big Issues…yet you feel compelled to strain the gnat.

    Pray for the big stuff like the abuses and corruption in CC and the abuse of kids, etc.

    I’ll be fine, trust me on that one.

  50. In response to post # 46, somebody with more computer skills than I possess needs to post a clip of Dana Carvey’s ‘church lady’. Can it be…..SATAN?!!!! :-)

    So many christians adore their idols.

  51. TruthSeeker, LOL! Yes, that would be appropriate IMO.

  52. I’d really like to know what Alex is lying about. Which parts of what he is saying is acked up by the people who verified it in a sworn deposition?

    “Pray for Alex” what lies are you talking about. The truth is documented.

    All the lies are from Calvary Chapel.

    The molestation from Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier.

    From his throne Chuck called the wrath of God down on a young man who chose to stand up for his brothers against their evil father/calvary chapel pastor.

  53. Alex, it’s so appropriate!

  54. Ya, I get sued by Calvary Chapel pastor Bob Grenier (which I’ve been told the suit was approved either tacitly or directly by Chuck Smith while he was still alive) and I get blasted from the CCCM pulpit, I get threatened and maligned by numerous CC and Chuck supporters, I get slandered, called all sorts of names, called “crazy” or mentally ill by Camp Bob etc and all because I chose to take a stand and report my personal abuse, the abuse (i personally believe) that my brother Paul reported and all the other testimonies from many former CCV families.

    …but I’m the devil and I’m the bad guy, and while Chuck Smith told me I was in “greater sin” for “unforgiveness”…somehow it is not unforgiving for his officially affiliated Calvary Chapel pastor friend to sue me (which affects my children) and to malign me and blast me from the CCCM pulpit and CCV pulpit along with all the slanders and other retribution and retaliation for coming out as a whistle-blower.

    No, that sort of suing and blasting away is all Jesus…b/c it’s CC doing it. When others simply stick their neck out, tell the truth and speak up…it’s “unforgiving” and “of the devil” etc.

  55. The ‘don’t touch God’s annointed’ is a classic line of CC pastors any time they are called out for wrongdoing and when they’re asked to be held accountable. God uses ALL OF US! You are not special or closer to God simply because you swim in idolatry from the people you convinced to worship you. You are no different than a popular kid in high school. You have a talent for speaking in public…great but that doesn’t mean you are holy and can’t fall. It is extremely dangerous to preach that you are a golden child and what you say goes.

    It’s just a cop out to justify every single action and to avoid any accountability.

  56. Heleadstheway, AMEN!

  57. It will be neat when your not standing in heaven. Sound more like envy of course your church you go to is perfect right?

  58. Let Not have undivided hearts. Pastor Chuck was an amazing Man,
    He ran his race with endurance. I Love u Pastor. And he absolutely
    Has begun his heavenly ministry. Cant wait to see you again. Until our family reunión. Here is to Christ an extraordinary Man:….. Pastor Chuck.
    Healing prayers for Alex.

  59. It’s so sad that you have devoted so much energy and time to bringing down this man of God who has touched so many. None of us are perfect, not one. That is why we need and have a Savior. May you find peace in your conflicted, weary heart and soul. . .We pray you return to the Lord for he loves you and all of us despite our darkest secrets and greatest flaws. It’s unfortunate that on a day so many are mourning, you are likely celebrating death. God’s greatest commandement is to love, even our enemies. And many consider you an enemy of the church and of Pastor Chuck. We don’t need the details or the back story of how you’ve been wronged. We simply pray you find healing and move on for you’re merely wasting a life that could be used to His glory.

  60. Alex,
    Well said! You have the right and perspective to share all that you have witnessed first hand. Many of here have our own Chuck experiences, which provide merit to each of our own words, viewpoints and ideas.
    For me, I attended countless SP conferences wherein I heard Chuck emphasize the exhortation, “finish well!” It is my personal opinion and belief that while speaking to the public about this exhortation, he himself did not act on his own exhortation. Much like the life of Eli (OT Priest) he served the Lord, yet failed to disciple his son’s. Note: “son’s” in this context relates to the CC SP’s that engaged in terrible acts of sin (much of which have been recorded here) and were never corrected. Since I have heard each of these men refer to Pastor Chuck as “papa Chuck,” and I have heard “papa Chuck” refer to these men, “as my son’s,” I offer this viewpoint.
    Furthermore, Chuck did not come down from the pulpit like he first approached it. Fact’s merit, and history will uphold this personal viewpoint. Christianity is not like other worldview’s, the good deeds do NOT outweigh the bad!
    I realize many will acknowledge the incredible growth of the CC movement, these comments can in NO WAY dismiss the great crimes (as stated and detailed on this blog) that have been covered-up, dismissed, or acknowledged.
    I, too, am saddened by Chuck’s passing. The fruit of unresolved sin will begin to manifest within 14 days, as the son’s (those referenced above) battle for power, control, and money. This is not a prophecy, but my personal opinion based upon real-life events. Let Star Wars, Episode Seven begin, “Rise of the Empires!”

  61. “My guess is you Calvary Chapel guys are full of s**t and you only profess a belief in spiritual things when it supports your narrative and your leaders and your business….God does all sorts of stuff in circumstances when it fits your agenda..otherwise everything is just random coincidence.”

    Really? Maybe your real problem is that you lack reverence for God, so you attack man?

    I know there are issues with Calvary Chapel, because people are involved. There is not a single church organization in the world that isn’t flawed in some manner. Not making excuses, but would you please take a look at yourself? I believe that Chuck Smith tried the best within his fallen nature to live a life that was pleasing to God. Are you??????

    Praying that you will understand God’s Mercy and Grace.

    Chuck

  62. I am one sick bitter, grudgeholding, unforgiving, sad excuse for a man.

  63. John said, “It will be neat when your not standing in heaven. Sound more like envy of course your church you go to is perfect right?”

    Nope, no church is perfect, not expecting perfection, but doing a decent job of exercising responsibility for pastoral abuse should be a reasonable expectation as well as financial transparency and no Moses Model.

  64. “Alex Grenier” please use a different moniker, you aren’t Alex Grenier, thanks.

    I don’t mind the pushback, even some name-calling is expected, but use a different moniker.

  65. “I am one sick bitter, grudgeholding, unforgiving, sad excuse for a man.”

    You forgot asshole, smart and good looking, LOL.

  66. You are unbelievable. You sit here on a website and sit around like a bunch of gossipy, prideful old ladies, criticizing a man who has, though not perfectly (I’m sure you can personally attest that no one is perfect), but faithfully and diligently served God for decades, having seen a whole generation of lost young people turn to Jesus, and thousands of Calvary Chapels around the world borne after Costa Mesa, not to mention the many Bible colleges. And on the day of his death no less. Get off your stinking high horse, stop judging people and situations, and YOU get back to YOUR first love. Stop tearing people down and start building people up. If you are truly Christians, your judgmental hearts are an embarrassment and a stab in the heart to all Christians who do love God and Pastor Chuck. The man was old. 86. Eighty-six year old people get sick and die. That doesn’t mean God judged him for anything you think he did wrong. How dare you. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

  67. Only God knows where Chuck is, many in that day…….

  68. Maybe you missed this Dorci,
    Here is what Chuck Smith protected. This is what he covered up to save his own rotten corpse.

    An excerpt from Paul Grenier’s deposition. I assure you that it only gets worse.

    “Bob (his father Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia) did, in fact, molest me. These are extremely humiliating and painful events to be forced to share publicly, but I am left with no other choice at this point since Bob has filed this lawsuit against Alex and while I would prefer not to be involved, I will in no way let Alex’s name be tarnished for telling the truth.

    Bob began sexually molesting me at the age of five years old. These episodes began in the small shower in the bathroom that adjoined his and Gayle’s master bedroom. These abuses started with me being forced to shower with him naked against my will.

    First, I was extremely uncomfortable and always had been by Bob walking around nude in front of me with his genitals exposed. And I knew inside of me at five years old that there was something wrong with having to take a shower with Bob. I knew that this type of behavior did not occur in the homes of my friends even at a young age.

    The showers started with Bob washing me with soap and touching my genitals and my anus. I recall at least six occasions where Bob would insert his index finger inside my anus in what he would describe “to make sure I was clean.” Bob would also have me wash his genitals wherein he would be in a sexually aroused state during these episodes and at times he would not.

    On two occasions I was forced to perform oral sex on Bob. Typical to the combination of physical and sexual abuse I endured at Bob’s hands, these showers would involve scalding hot water and I remember being in pain because of the heat of the water and also scared because of what he was doing to me.”

    This is what chuck ignored.

  69. Alex,

    I have been reading this blog for the past year or so, never commented, only lurked. I suppose you could say “I have a dog in the fight” but we all carry biases so to pretend otherwise would be a lie. However, I am wondering about you.

    Based on what I have read here, it is plenty clear that you see BG as guilty. I don’t know the man, but for the sake of a question, let’s agree that the accusations are true. After today, and all that has been written, do you think that your soul will have come to know peace more, or less, than it did 24 hrs ago? BTW, I don’t doubt that your pain is genuine…

  70. It sounds to me as if you are under the huge misconception that Pastor Chuck owes you something because of what somebody else did to you years ago. Let me be clear: he doesn’t. Pastor Chuck wasn’t there and he didn’t have anything to do with it. If you were molested you need to focus on healing, not on allowing satan to keep picking at the scab by constantly venting this misplaced anger.

    I was molested as a child, too, and raped as an adult. I don’t sit around and blame people for it, except for the perpetrators themselves. If you want to go to the cops and bring charges, do it. If you want to go to the immediate leadership in that particular Calvary Chapel, do it. But Chuck Smith could never have run around to every Calvary Chapel, micro-managing every dispute.

    You have become a vessel for satan, rather than a vessel for healing. I hope and pray you can take your pain to Jesus and begin allowing him to heal you of this very deep and destructive pain. But sitting here on a website spewing your hate is just poisoning other people. You will have to answer for that.

  71. lad, I would assert that it really has nothing to do with my personal “peace”, that is really irrelevant. It’s about fighting against a dangerous dynamic and false mythology that is in the form of Chuck Smith’s Moses Model dynamic, Touch not Gods anointed dynamic, and Calvary Chapel pastor is special and hears directly from God and is the end-all be-all in his Calvary Chapel with virtually unchecked power.

    It is destructive. I know many many folks who have been on the bad side of CC pastors and Calvary Chapel…and while CC-ites like to take credit for what they perceive as ‘good fruit’….they tend to deny and ignore all the bad fruit from these dangerous and cult-like practices and examples and teachings.

    The more folks become aware of the other side of the story, the more folks are warned of the wrong cult-like teachings and dictatorial practices and mindset propagated by many in CC, the better.

    It’s about telling the other side of the story and exposing it and dragging it into the light with the hopes that some scant few in CC will makes changes but that many others are warned so they avoid CC…and for others who have been wrongly tarnished as “of the devil” and marginalized and shunned by CC to know that Chuck and CC have no real power, not spiritually. Oh, they have power from money, fame and influence and the kind of power that can buy radio stations and hire lawyers…but God is NOT “on their side” as Chuck said and God will not zap you if you disagree with them or hold them accountable.

  72. I urge you, Alex, in the name of Jesus Christ, to begin the process of repentance and forgiveness today.

  73. Dorci, what do you mean? Can you quantify that for me? What does “begin the process of repentance and forgiveness today” look like in your opinion? What should I repent of and seek forgiveness for specifically?

  74. “It sounds to me as if you are under the huge misconception that Pastor Chuck owes you something because of what somebody else did to you years ago. Let me be clear: he doesn’t. Pastor Chuck wasn’t there and he didn’t have anything to do with it. If you were molested you need to focus on healing, not on allowing satan to keep picking at the scab by constantly venting this misplaced anger.

    I was molested as a child, too, and raped as an adult. I don’t sit around and blame people for it, except for the perpetrators themselves. If you want to go to the cops and bring charges, do it. If you want to go to the immediate leadership in that particular Calvary Chapel, do it. But Chuck Smith could never have run around to every Calvary Chapel, micro-managing every dispute.

    You have become a vessel for satan, rather than a vessel for healing. I hope and pray you can take your pain to Jesus and begin allowing him to heal you of this very deep and destructive pain. But sitting here on a website spewing your hate is just poisoning other people. You will have to answer for that.”

    If Chuck claimed to be a Pastor then yes he owes it to the flock to protect them from grevious wolves such as Bob Grenier. If Chuck was unable to legally De Dove Bob then the very least he could have done was a public Rebuke from the Pulpit to warn the Brethen of this wolf in Visalia. Yet Chuck chose not to do even that, I guess it would have been bad for business. A true Pastor would have protected the Flock not run when the Wolf started devouring them. You can’t enjoy the benefits of a Brand Name that you created and then not deal with the hard negative stuff, in other words you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Also what about the false date setting of 1981? The Lord warns against that type of thing but many in Calvary have selective memory about that but yet rail against the Harold Campings of the world..

  75. I have so many thoughts that I struggle to put them together.

    I accepted Christ at a Calvary Chapel Saturday night concert which Chuck Smith himself preached at. I didn’t realize at the time (Oct 1978) he wasn’t the normal speaker. I dug into Calvary Chapel teaching very deeply. I sent a copy of “Harvest” to my out of state uncle and told him about my faith and my new church.

    I was rebaptized in 1979 at Little Corona (not by Chuck personally because his line was too long and I didn’t think it mattered who did the baptism if Jesus was the real baptizer.

    I was part of a missionary support group at Calvary Chapel. I took several mission trips on my own nickel to CC locations out of the country. I taught at the School of the Bible at CCCM.

    For me it wasn’t long until the shine was off with CCCM. I saw so many bad things. I took classes at the school of the Bible by students from the school of ministry which really showed me the behind the scenes ugliness. The petty back-fighting and the man centered worship.

    I opened up my Bible and studied for myself. I found that Chuck’s teachings were really bad. The rapture Chuck taught almost constantly turned out to be a completely false and easily determined to be false doctrine. How could my hero and the hero of my friends be so wrong? I asked my friends and they all told me to trust Chuck. He wouldn’t lead us astray. The Bible verses were saying otherwise. I couldn’t believe that Chuck could possibly be so far off. Yet he was. It frustrated me that none of my Calvary Chapel friends could or would engage in discussions.

    Then 1981 happened. Chuck’s books told us that the rapture would happen in 1981 since Israel had become a nation in 1948 and a generation is 40 years and there would be a 7 year tribulation period. By that time I had already realized that Chuck’s teachings were completely false and he was capitalizing on his false teaching. Building a following. Selling his books. Making his empire. As a School of Ministry student said to me “If Chuck really believes the rapture is in 1981, then whey is he building a High School?”

    After 1981 some of my friends and family members left the faith. They had put their faith in Chuck who told them “If the Bible is true, Jesus is coming back in 1981″. They concluded that the Bible must not be true. Based on Chuck Smith – 100%. Friends and family going to Hell because of Chuck Smith. Hard to deny that.

    Fast forward to 1996 when I got on the Internet for the first time and found USENET. There was an alt.religion.christian.calvary-chapel group. It had been founded by CC pastors who wanted to spread the word. Problem was, they couldn’t control USENET. By its nature it was a wild frontier. I started posted there under my real name. Something I might not do today if I hadn’t started back then.

    I asked the CC pastors there about 1981. They all denied it. Lloyd Pulley and the CC Old Bridge crown. Ran into New Mexico CC pastors. All of them denied Chuck predicted 1981 as the date of the rapture.

    I had Chuck Smith’s books which showed that Smith did predict 1981. I typed in passages from the books and the pastors all said I was taking Smith out of context. I then decided I wanted to learn HTML programming and started a webpage. I called it “Calvary Chapel Frequently Unanswered Questions” page (a sort of FAQ in reverse). I scanned in the pages from the 1981 books so that they couldn’t deny what Smith had written. They dodged and fought. The page grew and now is the Wiki (linked above). 50,000 hits in the first year. A big “success”.

    Somewhere along the way, Chuck denounced me from the pulpit. You can hear him denouncing me from his pulpit by name. Similar to what he did to Alex. A typical bullying technique.

    Eventually the page documented Smith’s false teachings – and there were a lot more than 1981. That was just the start. All of the talk today “Chuck is with Jesus” was foreign to Smith’s teaching. He believed that when you die you were instantly resurrected, that you were fast forwarded, as it were in time, and that there was no intermediate time between death and resurrection to be in the presence of God.

    Not sure what more to say. I feel sadness and no joy that Chuck has passed. I have wondered since he got sick what this day would be like. If I feel anything it’s some shock that the day has finally come – as it will for all of us.

  76. #67. Solomon – yes, many in that day will say to me, Lord, Lord, didn’t I???

    I agree. Only God knows where Chuck is.

    The people commenting here probably for the first time should be reading the blog before commenting…I’ve read all the posts since 2009. Have you?

    You’ll get a much bigger idea of the reason for this website. It’s too easy to say we’re being critical of Chuck without reading what happened before.

    I don’t agree with all of Alex’s theology, but he has accurately reported the problems within Calvary Chapel of which Chuck Smith was the official (or unofficial – as it suited him) head.

    And please read the statement Alex makes at the beginning of this thread…he doesn’t agree with the fact that Chuck died because of what he did to Alex…just saying that Chuck called down God upon him and a month later got diagnosed with cancer himself…and points out the irony of that…

    If you want to call Alex hateful, etc., what do you want to call Chuck for defending his & his brothers’ molester? Do you really think Alex would take so many hours and so much time to keep this blog going if it weren’t true?

  77. Dorci wrote “But Chuck Smith could never have run around to every Calvary Chapel, micro-managing every dispute.”

    If Chuck couldn’t stop a child molester in his organization, then the organization didn’t deserve to exist.

    But the CC organization was one thing only and that is a relationship between the local pastor and Chuck Smith. With the death today of Chuck, there is no longer a Calvary Chapel. It ceased to exist since the Chuck Smith side of the relationship has ended. Will there be something in its place? Could be, but it won’t be what it was because it was all about a relationship to Chuck.

    Given that CC was a relationship to Chuck, why would Chuck decide to continue in a relationship with someone that he knew was a child molester? What sort of person allows that?

  78. Dorci wrote “I urge you, Alex, in the name of Jesus Christ, to begin the process of repentance and forgiveness today.”

    How dare you write that, Dorci? Alex was the victim. Shame on you.

  79. What I find very interesting is that one can read of the horrendous things done here to these boys and instead of shouting it from the rooftops that the ‘Moses Model’ is an open door for abusive pastors, they would rather call Alex evil and call for his repentance. I can guarantee you that most naysayers here have NOT gone through the kind of pain Alex and his brothers did perpetrated by a ‘Man of God’.

    Christian brothers and sisters where is the love and compassion. You and I may not go about solving the problem the same way as Alex, but if you believe in a God in heaven, that He is sovereign, then you must believe that He has allowed these horrendous crimes to be known. Satan doesn’t uncover evil. God does.

    It’s all a horrible, horrible thing. If you pray for Alex you must also pray for an organization where a man can continue to pastor a church that has been accused of molesting his own son and beating all of his sons, not only beating but debasing them as human beings. The very men who should have protected the sheep from this are the very ones who won’t even give these boys the time of day because they are so brain-washed.

    Not only have his own sons been horribly wounded but countless others have had their hearts ripped out of their chests and stomped into a million pieces. Suffering the pain from a ‘pastor’ like this is not easily abated. In fact, you suffer in untold ways for a very, very long time.

    I suggest all of you who don’t agree with what Alex is doing here to stop and pray for the victims of this man. You have no idea until you are on the receiving end of this kind of evil.

    I also offer my condolences and pray for the Smith family. I believe that Chuck Sr. may have been one of those brainwashed by this evil.

    All of this is heartbreaking beyond words for me and I pray that the love and compassion I have for all, even the naysayers will be given to Alex. Love stands against evil.

  80. I’m curious as to why so many of you Chuck idolaters are here? You purposely sought this out to be confrontational. That speaks volumes about yo. Chuck had a massive ego which seems par for the course in the CC system.

    And zero accountability. CC won’t even reveal the finances. How is that for being above reproach? It’s a self serving system and that is why you have such a push for control at the top of the mountain and the money that certain pastors are fighting over.

  81. Yes, Doug Gilliland has documented CC a ton on his wiki which is linked on this site.

    Doug got the “Touch not God’s anointed” curse as well…and he’s still alive and kicking, too.

  82. It is horrible that your step-father a pastor abused you and your brother and was never held accountable. My mother abused me and was never held accountable either and my father was a police officer! He covered it up too…
    Your an angry person and you are so angry you are hurting your self first and then you are taking your anger out on the wrong person. I was once like you. I used to be so angry at the world I would blame anyone for the abuse that I experienced. Being angry consumed my time and it effected my life, my health and my relationships. What did you expect Chuck to do for you? I think you should have gone to the Lord about your anger and about the abuse. Your father, my parents Chuck they are all human…they will fail us and make HUGE mistakes and so will you, and so will I. You can not keep this grudge up and YES you were not zapped as you put it but not for the reasons you think. I believe that the Lord is so close to the ones hurting and he sees your pain and he knows that you experienced such great abuse…HE is waiting for you to come to him with the pain and the sorrow and HE wants to heal you. You have that opportunity now. God Bless you!

  83. I am confused on how removing a molester is “micro managing”. I wonder what would be a good reason for Chuck to defend the innocent is. Chuck has asked pastor to leave over doctrine. So Dorci it’s better that Chuck is not blamed for the man Chuck personally placed here in Visalia, I mean Chuck physically drove him here to plant him. I might agree if this happened back east but it didn’t. BG is Chuck’s boy, he placed that kid molester here, it was his responsibility to take him down and he didn’t.

    Chuck has nothing to be proud of. He has hurt many with his lack of action.

  84. Well said Summer.

  85. Thanks Summer!

  86. May the Lord forgive your bitter heart. The true manifestation of your motives is seen in your comments of Pastor Chuck Smith in the time of his passing. You can rest assured that your actions will not go unnoticed by the Lord.

  87. Savant said, “May the Lord forgive your bitter heart. The true manifestation of your motives is seen in your comments of Pastor Chuck Smith in the time of his passing. You can rest assured that your actions will not go unnoticed by the Lord.”

    Ya, well, God’s telling me something different. He says you’re wrong and your words won’t go unnoticed either.

  88. In fact “Bible Savant”…if I was Chuck Smith or a CC pastor, I might tell you to “Touch not God’s anointed and do my profit no harm” and then start quoting verses about Ananias and Saphira and that “God’s on my side!” etc…so you better watch out! :-) :lol:

  89. “Bible Savant” wrote some drivel.

    But I did notice that “Bible Savant” initials just happen to be BS. I think we got pwned.

  90. …spelling of ‘profit’ in the CC context fully intended in case you were wondering :-)

  91. Cancer is a vile disease, it did seem that Mr. Smith did have some really good days even months since is diagnosis so that must give his family friends and parishioners some comfort. I think the good days really help when you know the inevitable. It also does give one comfort concerning heaven and the reconciliation with God. He did live quite a long time given the type and severity of the cancer. To sum up his life, I dont like summing up a person’s life I think each moment is a precious gift. I think it is understandable some whom have been hurt speak on that hurt. We dont do that enough concerning death sometimes saying what one sees as real is far more “honoring” then just platitudes. I do feel for his family and give them my deepest sympathy. Mr. Smith is like all of us he will need grace even after death, maybe even more. I know I will. I also know we both will have it.

  92. To those publicly rebuking me on this blog who seem to be enamored with Chuck Smith…your advice seems to be “unilaterally forgive and give it to God and shut up”

    …OK, show me how that’s done by not publicly rebuking me for your perceived slight and you leave it God…but the irony is, while you state one thing…you practice quite another. Apparently you are cool with public rebukes and public judgments and critiques…as you seem to have no problem dishing out the stuff…you just don’t like it when it’s done to your favorite Prophet/Guru.

    See the disconnect? You call for unilateral forgiveness and unconditional forgiveness and rebuke me publicly for not doing such (in your opinion)…as if it’s something sinful and evil to speak out against Chuck and CC publicly…yet you do the same thing when it is something you perceive as wrong and a slight. Why don’t YOU “leave it to the Lord” and “forgive” and just pray about it? Seriously…why do you think it’s valid and acceptable for you to speak out and rebuke…but for others it’s some sort of sin and wrong?

  93. alex, you sure have alot of time on your hands.

  94. Alex, the irony is clear but only to someone who is clear minded.

  95. Jacob, I’m a multi-tasker :-) and CC pastors like Steve Wright of CC Lake Elsinore comment on blogs all the time and seem to be able to pastor a Calvary Chapel and blog a lot in between. It’s really not that hard.

  96. brian said, “Mr. Smith is like all of us he will need grace even after death, maybe even more. I know I will. I also know we both will have it.”

    Amen brian, I really believe that as well.

    I think Chuck found out today just how wonderful the true Gospel is…God will reconcile the whole of his creation if he is truly “good” and truly “love”…if God is real that is.

  97. Plenty of us grew up with ass hole fathers. Get over it loser. If you put of fraction of the effort you put into this stupid website, you might actually make something of yourself. Time to move on. Be a man, break the cycle and quit living in the past.
    Peace be with you.

  98. Alex @ 71,

    I think I understand what you are saying re “cause is greater than self,” but there is a deep personal need behind our actions….not casting judgement as to the rightness or wrongness of such, just sayin’ what is there. You seem like someone who has not known rest in a long time, so I was asking the question. Not really trying to “say”/imply anything other than what was asked. It was not an attempt to pick a fight or “test the spirits” or anything like that. I too have seen the “dark side” of a CC…as much as others? Not likely. You have a lot to keep track of, not expecting a response, just asking the question….

  99. Over it said, “Plenty of us grew up with ass hole fathers. Get over it loser. If you put of fraction of the effort you put into this stupid website, you might actually make something of yourself. Time to move on. Be a man, break the cycle and quit living in the past.
    Peace be with you.”

    LOL, i like that one…it’s fairly typical, but the ending of “peace be with you” gets bonus points :-)

    I am over it. I really don’t grieve over it any longer, it is what it is. It didn’t kill me, it made me much tougher and stronger person, so there’s that silver lining.

    I’m just finishing the race with regards to the conviction to speak out about pastoral and church abuses etc.

    I have made something of myself, I’m a great dad and love my kids and I don’t abuse them.

  100. lad, I appreciate that explanation. I think if you got to know me outside the blogging you’d get it more.

    I’m good at compartmentalization, it’s been quite a good survival mechanism I’m blessed with.

    As such, I may seem constantly passionate about “the cause” etc…but that is largely in the blogging. I also run several business locations, have a family, many friends, and other personal hobbies and interests.

    I don’t ever want to “be at rest” with church abuse and child abuse. I am glad that stuff makes me passionate.

  101. Dorci wrote “But Chuck Smith could never have run around to every Calvary Chapel, micro-managing every dispute.”

    Dorci, Chuck had enough time to personally visit Bob Grenier, put his arm around him and pose for publicity pictures, sending a clear unmistakable message that he supported and promoted Bob Grenier, a spiritual, physical and sexual abuser. It took more time and effort to support Bob than it would have taken to remove him, at least disapprove of him.

    Doug Guilliand wrote, “If Chuck couldn’t stop a child molester in his organization, then the organization didn’t deserve to exist.”

    Absolutely true!

  102. Re: Over it wrote,

    “Plenty of us grew up with ass hole fathers. Get over it loser. If you put of fraction of the effort you put into this stupid website, you might actually make something of yourself. Time to move on. Be a man, break the cycle and quit living in the past.”

    Remind me to send your own words back to you when someone abuses your kid. We’ll remind you to just get over it, to not try to stop the abuser, to not try to protect others from being abused, to not try to get a broken system that enables abusers to thrive to be fixed so that doesn’t happen to anyone else.

  103. Alex, I came to your blog only because of a big over sight on my part while I was goggling about the death of pastor Chuck. because I was in a hurry and thought I had the right web page; I had not read your blog yet and posted your info onto my Facebook page before reading this blog. BUT after that I did take the time to read this blog and was at first offended that you could write this today…then I did a back study on you and re-read your blog again and suddenly felt compassion for you which is why I felt compelled to write what I did. As I stated, I come from a similar back ground and I have gone through the anger and I have also gone through the steps to forgive and to be set free myself. There is no rebuke in my statement & there this no condemnation there either. It is only the truth and with love because I see that you are looking for that in the way that you reply back. As I read some of the replies I do see where some could have used better tact in commenting. It does take a lot more thought to respond tactfully. It takes no thought at all to respond with anger or resentment that seems to be easy as it is built into our human nature. It isn’t even solely a biblical belief that forgiveness is good for the body. Science has proved that by forgiving you can add years to your life. Read this article about a boy abducted stabbed and shot who forgave the perpetrator as he lay on his death bed.: http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_new_science_of_forgiveness
    I am pasting these excerpts from that page.
    “It is much more agreeable to offend and later ask forgiveness than to be offended and grant forgiveness,” said the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche “But a new line of research suggests something different. This research has shown that Chris Carrier’s story isn’t an anomaly. Forgiveness isn’t just practiced by saints or martyrs, nor does it benefit only its recipients. Instead, studies are finding connections between forgiveness and physical, mental, and spiritual health and evidence that it plays a key role in the health of families, communities, and nations. Though this research is still young, it has already produced some exciting findings—and raised some important questions”. This is the truth…not condemnation. When you are clouded by anger you can not see the truth and you will lash out at people who try to help you. Like I said some could have used better tact. Some were lashing back at you in anger rather than love. When you forgive and are set free you are able to see the truth and you are able to have compassion for others. Also you can be used by God to help others who are in your situation who have been abused by those in an authority position. I am able to help victims of abuse because of my personal experience and because I forgave my mom…and forgave my dad for not protecting me. Please have the open mind to forgive…it will not make what happened to you right because that was WRONG. But it takes your step-dad off of your hook and puts him on God’s hook so that he can deal with your dad. One though (my own opinion) Maybe God has not dealt with your step-dad because you have not allowed him do do so.

  104. Alex @93 said, To those publicly rebuking me on this blog who seem to be enamored with Chuck Smith…your advice seems to be “unilaterally forgive and give it to God and shut up”

    …OK, show me how that’s done by not publicly rebuking me for your perceived slight and you leave it God…but the irony is, while you state one thing…you practice quite another. Apparently you are cool with public rebukes and public judgments and critiques…as you seem to have no problem dishing out the stuff…you just don’t like it when it’s done to your favorite Prophet/Guru.
    ___________________

    EXACTLY!

    The damage done by the abusers -be it spiritual, physical or sexual- is bad enough; yet, I find the response of those telling the abused they should have just done nothing and left it all to the Lord, to be reprehensible. They are not following their own advice by speaking out to tell the abused what to do.

    When I spoke up about abuses in my church with my CC pastor, I was told I was speaking “EVIL.” But it was evil of that person to say such a thing to me. God uses people all the time. God used me speaking out about my errant CC pastor, along with others, to finally stop him from doing it in our town. (Too bad he was able to set up shop in the next town without real repentance.)

  105. Kelly said,

    “Maybe God has not dealt with your step-dad because you have not allowed him do do so.”

    Kelly, laying blame on the victim for what God does or does not do is not kind. That’s like telling the person who wasn’t healed after praying for it that maybe it’s their fault for not having enough faith. These are damaging, unloving remarks.

  106. Typical scenario:

    1. Abuser has free reign to abuse.
    2. Abused follows Mt. 18 to no avail.
    3. Leadership who could put a stop to it doesn’t, because it doesn’t serve their man-kingdom $.
    4. Abused speaks out as a follow up to Mt.18 to warn others.
    5. Abuser falsely accuses abused to protect his man-kingdom.
    6. People who need their worlds to be stable, protect their leaders without investigation.
    7. People then abuse the abused by “correcting” them, laying the blame at their feet, telling them to be quiet about the abuse, demanding they stuff the pain and damage out of sight, and actively subverting the abused efforts to get the abuser to be held accountable for the safety of others.

    I think #7 is the most painful. It’s the same as being stabbed by your “family”.

  107. Grateful, I rarely disagree with you, but #7, at least for me, is par for the course and it doesn’t bother me, I expect if of people, especially Chuck Smith Christians*. It’s a by-product of the CCool-aid and that particular belief system and world view. They really can’t help themselves, they don’t see it….yet. It’s part of the cult-like dynamic…and while you’re drinking from the CCool-aid fountain, it’s difficult to see things differently.

  108. The CC-ites getting angry and passionate on here is a necessary first step, unpleasant at times, but it’s an open door and sometimes leads to healthy questioning and further research into the issues.

  109. Grateful, what I said is not at all damaging or unloving… go back and re-read what I wrote and take note that I said this was in my own opinion which I am entitled to have. How do you know how God works for sure? I am a people watcher and I know from watching each relationship and encounter that God works differently in each life…he heals some who pray for it who seem to have “great” faith BUT he heals other who seek a doctor’s help. Sometimes he does not heal at all, for what ever reason I am not able to say why, but I trust him because he is sovereign. In this case Sometimes the one who did the abusing are not brought to account right away or until they stand before God. WHO knows we are human and we can not say with authority. I was not offering a FACT it was just my opinion. I do know from my own personal experience that it was by my taking the steps to forgive which was a long painful journey that God was then able to do a mighty works in my parent’s life. Therefor I have at least for me the proof that this is sometimes how God operates. And so I am able to offer my “opinion” on that fact.

  110. “alex, you sure have alot of time on your hands.”

    I love these kinds of diversion comments. LOL

  111. Kelly, I have no beef with you sharing your opinions and I don’t feel attacked or whatever. Your response, with the limited info you have, is a pretty typical one (within a range of regular responses I’ve received over the years). My initial impression of your comments is that you have some sincere concern.

    Grateful has been around for a long time and has been there done that on here and elsewhere with regards to Calvary Chapel and the many situations you may not be aware of.

    But, everyone is entitled to their opinions and there will always be some differing and conflicting opinions within any Group.

  112. I have a particular Rhetorical strategy and employ a variety of tactics to achieve rhetorical non-violent goals in my social activism. Agitation is one of those tactics and as such, it is normal for folks with limited knowledge of all the Calvary Chapel abuses and history of bad practices due to the bad Moses Model and Touch Not God’s Anointed stuff to come on here and blast away and get angry and rebuke and name-call etc. It’s to be expected.

    It is part of the goal. It is the first step, often, in getting folks attention and getting them outside the bubble and outside their comfort zone and getting them to engage and to think and to see information they haven’t seen in the closed-bubble Happy Only Positive Only PR fluff they get indoctrinated with in the CC Establishment.

  113. Follow the money…..
    Under New Covenant Grace, we are not under the Law, and thus not under Tithing.
    CC teaches we still owe God…. Hmmm, so we are still under the Law and not under Grace?

    and that we also still have Evil hearts when, if Truly Born anew, we have a new Heart , in having His Spirit indwelling is us, called Saints, by God, never referred in the NC as sinners.

    Those who teach that we are still having to tithe to Payback God are False Teachers.
    along with you can lose or leave you salvation.
    or that your have to confess every sin you commit after you are saved to get “more forgiveness” (Hmm, where is the shedding of blood, when all His blood was shed and He said It is finished!!)

    Folks, Let the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace be your Main teacher and not these CCs guys who live like kings on the money that extort out of the “flock” by keeping them decieved and dependent on them to be “their gurus” instead of utter trusting in God!!

    Sola Deo Gloria

  114. Alex I agree and thank you :)

  115. Alex @ 101,

    Fair enough.

  116. “alex, you sure have alot of time on your hands.”

    I’ve heard that one over the years and I am thankful that I do have that time on my hands to fight for what I believe in.

  117. Supposedly, according to pretty much all flavors of Christian*….we all have a lot of time on our hands as we are essentially eternal beings whose consciousness will live on in some form…forever, supposedly. ;-)

  118. You seem to be of the belief that Chuck Smith dying was a punishment from God, and a punishment for him speaking up about you. You could not be more wrong.

    Chuck Smith is heaven, with God. He is now seeing what eyes have not seen, and hearing what ears have not heard, the wonders of heaven. He has met Jesus Christ. Chuck Smith is happy, he is with His Savior, Jesus Christ. He is also with those loved ones who have gone before him, people he has not seen in years.

    Chuck Smith was 86 years old. He lived a full life. And everyone is appointed a time to die, right from the get-go. His death had nothing to do with you. He actually lived over a decade longer than the average life-expectancy for a man. Claiming that his death had anything to do with you, is just silly. And you don’t even worship God. What on earth would make you believe that God would do something harmful to one of His own, for one (you) who rejects Him (God)?

    No no no. It was Chuck Smith’s time to go to be with the Lord. And he was spot on with his warning about you. You truly need to repent and call on Jesus Christ. And you need to stop blaming an elderly preacher man who was fighting cancer and other health problems, before he ever heard of the angry man online that was slamming his name.

    Debra J.M. Smith
    Informing Christians Journalist

  119. Read it again Debra. It was a back-handed commentary speaking against CHUCK SMITH’s very famous Doctrine of Divine Retribution and Touch Not God’s Anointed bullcrap. I was modeling his doctrine…and the shoe is not comfortable when it’s on the other foot as they say.

  120. I did it to show the absurdity of Chuck Smith’s doctrine and practice in that regard. It illustrates to his faithful how Chuck’s doctrine of Divine Retribution and Touch Not God’s Anointed stuff looks when it is turned about 180 degrees…onto him. My situation illustrates the dynamic and obliterates the myth that many still believe (and shouldn’t).

    God doesn’t nuke folks for Chuck or anyone else. Chuck was not “God’s anointed” and was powerless in that regard other than being a talented man who amassed fame and fortune and influence and created his own sect of Christianity*.

  121. Oh Alex, you’re not passionate….anyone who would spend the entire day online libeling an innocent man is ANGRY. Chuck Smith did not molest you or harm you in any way, and except for your few groupies it’s clear to everyone you are out for the blood of an innocent man. Chuck Smith was absolutely correct, you slandering an anointed man of God is one of the things God himself hates (Proverbs 6:17) You expecting Chuck Smith to be able to micromanage over a thousand churches shows your ignorance. It’s God’s work, not Chuck Smith’s. To even insinuate he got cancer and died as a result of not dealing with YOUR PROBLEMS, LOL! Chuck’s rejoicing in heaven right now, while you rage against the wrong person in misery. You all can make fun of us “idiots” all you want, We aren’t phased and it’s typical of the enemy to always distract from God’s work. I don’t worship anyone but Jesus, but I will defend my innocent brother. Chuck had complete peace, humbleness, and grace and died beloved by millions. You will die with none of those things, and your name forgotten. ***does the church lady shuffle off your blog*** :-D

  122. Chuck isn’t innocent and I haven’t lied. I have intimate knowledge from former staff, pastors, and even administrators and folks who were there…as well as my own direct personal experiences. Chuck didn’t tell the truth…often. You have the rosy view that CC presents. You don’t have all the facts or the whole truth of the matter. There are things that are fact that would rock your world about Chuck. Things that were morally disqualifying, but “grace” for Chuck…but not so much for many others who were deemed “enemies” etc.

  123. Pray, you cling to a mythology that simply isn’t true.

  124. False analogy. Big difference between “micro-managing” and covering up abuse and corruption in his system of churches and not taking “simple” biblically mandated church discipline.

  125. Alex, the shoe is not on the other foot. –God did not kill one of His children for you.

  126. Debra, agreed. That was the point. Had I come down with cancer after Chuck’s curse from the CCCM pulpit…you can guaran-frickin-tee that the CC-ites (and Chuck, as he and others in CC have done in the past) would have said, “Got GOT him! Touch not God’s anointed”….yet when a coincidence happens to Chuck, it’s just random chance and spiritual significance.

    I am exposing the pick-and-choose nature of their professed doctrine and exposing it as myth. God doesn’t zap folks on behalf of Calvary Chapel pastors and CC pastors are not “specially anointed” no more than anyone else.

  127. …now if one really believes the myth that God zaps those who “touch God’s anointed”…then Chuck must’ve got zapped since i stated publicly that Chuck had called down a curse on himself…and then got diagnosed with cancer a month or so later (it’s just a coincidence, but Chuck has said guys got zapped in the past after “touching god’s anointed” when they challenged Chuck and CC, and my point was to illustrate how it’s “coincidence” when it’s Chuck…yet he and CC would make a spiritual “god got him!” connection when it suits their narrative and agenda. My belief is it’s all coincidence, the few occurrences Chuck and other CC pastors pointed to in the past when they expressed guys had gotten zapped by God on their behalf…and now with Chuck Smith’s cancer and subsequent death).

    Touch Not God’s Anointed is nonsense and that is the point I am making.

    The voodoo is bogus, but it has been commonly practiced and accepted as real by Chuck and many in CC. It’s bad stuff. May it die and cease in the CC Movement.

  128. Alex, Chuck Smith was not meaning that God was going to kill you. –Chuck Smith would have been praying for you to come to be saved, so that you would be a child of God’s too.

    Look at your life, Alex. How is your life? It is your life that Chuck would have been referring to, Alex.

  129. I will choose the remember much of the good that came out of CCs through Chuck and others. I did cry for the joy of the memory of that good in my own life when I heard about Chuck’s departing this evening. I also think Chuck does know God and is in heaven with Jesus.

    However, I think Chuck did make some serious mistakes, toward the end of his life, especially regarding not clamping down more recently on the purpose drivel, not dealing with these issues with corrupt pastors, and also the terrible counseling job he did with the woman who called his radio program when her doctor advised her to have an abortion.

    I suppose some of these issues could be chalked up as, “he was getting old.”

    But who in their right mind could blame anyone for needing justice about an abusive CC pastor? No one can deny that sexual abuse is rampant and a serious crisis in the protestant churches today. The untouchable attitude of the leadership is very unhealthy and leaves the door open for such abuses.

    I am also very concerned and praying for those currently involved with CCs now. What worse will come of this leadership problem now that Chuck is gone? Who will pastor CCCM? Will it become more immersed in doctrinal problems as many churches today? I think this merits prayer.

  130. No, I disagree. Listen to the audio. He said what he could do would hurt a little, but what the Lord would do, well you know…”I’m glad God is on my side”

    Chuck has a history of this stuff, and that provides the context. There are testimonies of Chuck saying God zapped people on his behalf.

    And, you can read this documented factual quote from Chuck himself:

    “Other churchgoers say Calvary Chapel pastors also don’t like to be questioned. During the investigation for this article, Smith cautioned CT’s reporter: “The Lord warns, ‘Don’t touch my anointed. Do my prophet no harm.’ I think that you are trying to do harm to the work of God. I surely wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.””–Christianity Today, Day of Reckoning 2007

  131. Debra, don’t be fooled. I’ve got solid sources, multiple, who say Chuck believed God zapped folks on his behalf because he was a specially anointed prophet. It’s whacky stuff. He even served up that bull to the Christianity Today reporter. It’s all there in black and white. You can choose not to believe it, but that doesn’t make it not so.

  132. Debra said, “Look at your life, Alex. How is your life? It is your life that Chuck would have been referring to, Alex.”

    My life is great. Excellent health, great wife and kids, good career, lots of friends and a good family (wife’s family and two of my brothers and real dad and step-mom, aunts, uncles etc). My blog has over 5 million hits and life is good :-)

    I think Chuck put it this way, “where God guides he provides” :-)

  133. Debra, how do you interpret “I surely wouldn’t want to be in your shoes” and “what I could do would only hurt him a little…but what the Lord will do…I’m glad God is on my side”

    Do you really believe Chuck was wishing warm fuzzy blessings?

  134. Call it “zapping,” call it what you wish to. But it is what will happen to a person in life that Chuck Smith would have been referring to. And yes, it is written that our enemies stumble and fall, and that any weapon formed against us will not prosper.

    Again, I ask you, Alex. How is your life?

  135. Cathryn said, “I am also very concerned and praying for those currently involved with CCs now. What worse will come of this leadership problem now that Chuck is gone? Who will pastor CCCM? Will it become more immersed in doctrinal problems as many churches today? I think this merits prayer.”

    Yes, it will be interesting to watch the splintering. There’s a big in-fight behind the scenes. Bordersen looks to have gotten control of CCCM, but Paul Smith and Heitzig made a power play for it and lost out.

    Greg Laurie will have his faction, Raul Ries will have his…and John Higgins has already left the fold.

    There are the Traditionalists who are more conservative and then there are the more progressives (theologically) who have a bigger tent.

    It’s gonna split in several different pieces.

  136. Debra said, “And yes, it is written that our enemies stumble and fall,”

    What do you mean by that in the context of the Touch Not God’s Anointed stuff Chuck did?

    Jesus said, “I give you a new law…love your enemies…as your father in heaven is perfect”

    Why did Chuck rebuke me from the CCCM pulpit and say those things? Why did he tacitly or directly endorse a lawsuit against me by one of his CC affiliated pastors? Why did Chuck sue Mike Kestler over the CSN multi million dollar radio network?

  137. I am in the Camp that recognizes the competing narratives in the bible.

    Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel seem to cling to the God of wrath, vengeance, smite thine enemy and nuke the enemy in hell forever God of the OT…when it’s their perceived enemies.

    Yet, they embrace the grace, mercy and forgiveness God of the NT when it’s them and theirs.

    I don’t think Rambo Jesus of the OT and Revelation is correct. It is antithetical to the “Law of Love” which is the “new law” of the Love and Mercy and Forgiveness Hippie Jesus of the Gospels.

    If “love your enemies” is the new law…and we are to unconditionally and unilaterally forgive with no precondition, no strings attached…then why do you believe God himself is held to a lower standard? It’s OK for God to not love his enemies by torturing them in hell forever, it’s OK for God to exact vengeance? It’s OK for God to require precondition and quid pro quo to give out forgiveness?

    It may take you awhile to digest the underlying philosophical/theological point I am making in all of this…but I’ll keep trying.

  138. Personally I dont get it when someone like Hitchens died there were many people who said they were Christians dancing on his grave and saying know Hitchens is a believer and other such phrases. The same was true to some degree when Pastor Warren lost his son though not as gleeful compared to when Mr. Hitchens passed away. The God took them out card is played quite a bit to be honest, even, to some degree in the Bible. When the bears killed the children that mocked the Lord’s prophet, the killing of the first born of Egypt and so on.

    I disagree with some of what Alex has said, I hope he waits now that Pastor Smith has gone to heaven, and I am sure he has, there will be a fresh wind hopefully that may help Alex find the justice he is seeking. I went through this a bit, actually alot, when I had several deaths in my family. The good thing is I was able to reconcile with them during this life by the grace of God.

    On reading many of the people who loved Pastor Smith I am starting to see a side of the man I had little connection with. He did have an impact sort of like riding the wave of the Jesus movement. I miss my family daily, it does not really go away, did you do enough, did you help enough etc. Jesus, from what I understand, wants us to move on past that to a place of peace, even if it means letting go. Its hard to let go. I found that this peace comes a bit at a time, sort of like a small lamp to light our path instead of a huge search light so we can see way ahead.

    There are days I rage at actual and precised hurts, clouded memories and frustrations. The clear memories can be much more painful and hard to deal with. I think Pastor Smith wanted to do the best he could with what he understood but also wanted to protect his “ministry” at times even at the cost of other people. I think we all do that to some degree or another. I cant offer any answers I still find myself wishing his family peace in this time of loss.

  139. Good word brian, I do wish his family peace and no ill will. I am opposed to what he stood for (in some areas) and what has been propagated (in some serious areas)…i am not opposed to him as a person, more his persona and bad doctrine and practices. He was a good dad (from all reports) and a decent human being in many areas…but too many folks turned him into an idol, which is another bad part of his legacy.

  140. Debra asked again, “Again, I ask you, Alex. How is your life?”

    Hmm, I’m guessing you mean something different as I answered this already.

    Do you mean like Lordship Salvation Holiness Meter “how’s your life?” Like am I abiding in the vine, do have any ongoing sins, am I harboring any sins, etc?

    If this is what you mean, I’ll put it this way…I sin about as often as any Calvary Chapel pastor, including Chuck Smith. Some of the specific sins may be different, many are the same sins…but I don’t buy into the Lordship Salvation Holy Meter as the determining factor as to whether one is “officially saved” or not. It is a mythological doctrine.

    The standard, supposedly, according to Jesus was “go and sin no more”…and my experience as a student of humanity is that Atheists, Agnostics, Mormons, JW’s etc are capable of not sinning in many areas and often exhibit “good fruit” in the form of Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness and Self-Control…while Chuck Smith and other Calvary Chapel pastors often exhibit bad fruit (of the devil) like Lying, Pride, Gluttony, Fornication, Adultery, abuse, corruption you name it.

    So, if you are asking me a Lordship Salvation “where are you on the sin-o-meter” i’d say I’m somewhere in between Chuck Smith and Raul Ries.

  141. This is coming from someone who doesn’t like alot of things about calvary Chapel. .. but upon observation and listening to the online phone call you just come off mad bitter. Especially when listening to you then Chuck he makes more sense. What do you want him to do if some random ass hole like you comes talking all this shit like your king tut cuz your step dad socked you a few times….yo alex my pops socked me in the face more than once and I still got love for him, do you know why, because ive moved on…you obviously dont believe in god the way your always trying to throw dirt at chuck. I believe chuck is just a man..a sinner like me…and ive heard him say that, let god do gods job…and you, you need to find a job….

  142. Alex,

    This is all new to me. I am doing my homework in-between comments, reading some of your writings on your website. I have no reason to not believe you about your dad. And I have no doubt that out of (from what I understand) over a thousand Calvary Chapels, at least one (if not more) has a destructive man that claims to be of God, standing at the pulpit. And I have no doubt that Chuck Smith would have given Calvary Chapel ministers the benefit of the doubt when accusations were put forth against any of them. But did you notice that Chuck Smith not only did not deny that you were abused by your stepfather, he acknowledged it.

    Chuck Smith said that the man was attacking him, “because his step-father was abusive to him as he was growing up.” –Of course he was referring to you. He clearly acknowledged the abuse.

    I cannot say why Chuck Smith did not ask your stepfather to step down. I sure would have. But then again, I would have asked Raul Ries to step down too, because he came with a different gospel, one that wrongly taught a true saved person could be unsaved. No, I cannot answer from Chuck Smith. He did say that he did not want to tell other ministers what to do. But, personally, I would at least remove such a minister from the official Calvary Chapel website and radio station. But he didn’t. He was an eighty-some year old man, when you began your fight with him, who had been fighting poor health for some time, as he had had strokes. Did you ever think that maybe he was just too weak to fight your battle? perhaps tired? perhaps he just didn’t have it in him to do battle for you?

    Do you not feel that you were a bit aggressive towards Chuck Smith, an elderly minister? Had he been in his younger day, perhaps I could see it a bit more. But an eight-some year old man that had had strokes? Come on, Alex. Your fight is with your stepfather and your mother, not an elderly minister. And you probably have no idea what your stepfather may have said to Pastor Chuck, to manipulate him in all of this. It sure sounds like your stepfather has an ability to manipulate people, if he is all that you claim him to be.

    Please rethink your aggressiveness towards Pastor Chuck. And please take a look at your life, and ask yourself if all of this is really helping you or hurting you. There is a better way to deal with your anxiety over your stepfather, than this. Like write a book about all of what happened to you and your brothers, and try to get it published. But you need to stop going after people who really are not in a position to do much if anything about him.

  143. freddy, my brother Paul says he was molested. And, there’s women from CCV who claim they were driven to near suicide from bad counseling and there is literally a pile of other families who reported detailed testimonies. If it was just my personal abuse, we wouldn’t be here.

  144. Debra said, “Please rethink your aggressiveness towards Pastor Chuck. And please take a look at your life, and ask yourself if all of this is really helping you or hurting you. There is a better way to deal with your anxiety over your stepfather, than this. Like write a book about all of what happened to you and your brothers, and try to get it published. But you need to stop going after people who really are not in a position to do much if anything about him.”

    I have, many times. The blog is my “book”.

    I think there are major contributing factors that enable the Bob G’s and the Dino Cardelli’s and the Skip Heitzigs’ and Chris Olague’s and Jimmy Kempner’s and Raul Ries’s and so many more.

    The underlying problem is partly at Chuck Smith’s doorstep: Moses Model, Touch Not God’s Anointed, and the myth that CC pastors are “specially anointed” and that they hear special from God and are more special than the “sheep” etc.

    It is too much of a power trip for sinful men…and can lead to very bad situations that leave the victims nearly powerless.

  145. Debra, my belief is that poking holes in the mythological man-god that many revere Chuck Smith as (read the stuff on all the other blogs today, you’d think god himself died, it’s pretty idolatrous) and poking holes in the “CC pastors are special!” is a very good and necessary thing. Much of the abuse in CC comes via perceived spiritual power that these guys don’t have…and it messes with people’s minds who get on the wrong side of a CC pastor…and then these folks get shunned, marginalized as “enemies of the devil’ etc and it plays major head games with CC cast-aways.

    Pulling the pants down on “God’s specially anointed” does wonders to releasing folks from the mythology that Chuck and CC promotes in many case. You aren’t of the devil if you disagree with a CC pastor and the CC pastor doesn’t hear from God any more than you do as a regular schmuck “sheep”.

  146. Debra, I had very intense phone conversations with Chuck and a very long intense in person meeting with him, his attorney and Dave Rolph at CCCM Logos building.

    One of my brothers attended the meeting and Paul phoned in his testimony of abuse.

    I presented Chuck with a literal pile of first-person named testimonies from many CCV families.

    Chuck was no dummy. He was very shrewd, very sharp and very much knew what was going on. Don’t sell him short. He’s not easily manipulated, even by a guy like BG.

    Chuck made a business decision and Chuck made it personal when I didn’t kiss the ring and play ball and keep quiet….and Chuck got bad advice and underestimated me and the situation.

    And, Chuck and CCCM were also named in a child molestation lawsuit at the time in Northern Idaho…which was a factor.

  147. I am absolutely horrified and appalled by most of these posts. How sad that this Alex person is so full of rage. Have you sought treatment/therapy? I will pray for you. Was it Mr.Smith’s fault that his father is an animal? He IS with My Father in heaven! He was a GREAT man, very humble and he loved the LORD. Pray for Alex #122, you are right on the money.

  148. If CC’s leadership (previous to yesterday, Chuck Smith) would have exampled and mandated open finances, shared power, a child abuse policy that not only includes the basics like mandatory reporting but also background checks system-wide to get affiliated, and a policy to remove a pastor and investigate when there are allegations and a mandated teaching of proper legal discipline vs. child abuse etc. and more power to board members and assistant pastors to push back and challenge the SP when they see something wrong, etc, and some sort of check and balance where the Senior Pastor (SP) doesn’t own all the stuff through control of the Trust or direct ownership of the assets that are paid for by tithers/givers…then you’d cut down on the BG’s of the CC System…or at least you’d weed the stuff out quicker and folks who donated money for years would have some sort of recourse other than “there’s the door!”

  149. Julissa said, “How sad that this Alex person is so full of rage.”

    Yes, I AM SO FULL OF RAGE! RAWWWWWRRRR! :lol:

    C’mon, lighten up. It’s passion, some hyperbole and rhetorical device, mixed with sincere conviction, but not “rage” or “anger”.

  150. Alex, ALL of God’s children (and I am speaking of true born again biblical Christians) are God’s anointed ones. This simply means that we are all given something to do in God’s kingdom. I trained up two daughters in the Lord and even schooled them at home. I believe that was my most important thing as a Christian that I was “anointed” by God to do. Now, along with being there for my daughters and my husband, I have an online ministry and conservative activism work that I do. But sometimes, Alex, it is simply smiling at a stranger on the street. :o)

    Alex, the reason we go through such terrible trials in this life, is because we live in a fallen world. You stepfather did not say to himself when he was five years old, that he wanted to grow up and physically abuse children. And your mother did not say as a child, that she wanted to grow up to look the other way while her children were being attacked. What happened to you and your siblings and to so many children growing up, is a result of sin. And unless you plan on digging up the graves of your mom’s and stepfather’s parents and grandparents and great-grandparents and so-on, and beating the crud out of a lot of dead remains (because I guarantee you, they ALL had a part in what happened to you, as it is a generational thing), you would be far better off reaching up and taking God’s hand and letting Him heal you.

    Satan is having a field day with you. He has you right where he wants you, in torment. And though you may not be continuing in the generational abuse of the next generation, your children ARE feeling this anger of yours. They are watching you. They are seeing you. They are feeling it, even if you never raise an angry hand at them.

    You are in quicksand, Alex, the same quicksand your mother and stepfather is in. Haven’t you had enough of it? Don’t you want out?

  151. Debra, no, my kids don’t see it. I do my blogging in private. They are completely insulated from this whole ordeal, other than the lawsuit part, which is evil…and I was told Chuck approved it.

    I was in torment when I sat for four years and didn’t confront the abuses and took the manipulation of the CC elders and left it to the Lord and prayed about it.

    Some folks are in more torment when they see injustice and don’t do anything about it.

    I’m at much more peace when I feel like I’m doing something to make a dent, than when I know it’s there but I do nothing to try and make a difference.

  152. Debra, your version of ‘healing’ sounds a lot like Denial.

  153. Debra said, “Satan is having a field day with you. He has you right where he wants you”

    Well, as i think satan is probably a metaphor for the dual nature of man representing man’s bad side and the “devil inside” that all must wrestle with…there is a kernel of truth there. I have to resist feeding the bad wolf (as the Native American proverb goes) and feed the good wolf.

    I’m more of Liberal theologically at this stage of my journey and I think God, if he is truly good and truly love…and “love your enemy…as your father in heaven is perfect” is the standard that trumps all others….then I think God will reconcile all…including Chuck, including me, you, everyone.

    I do believe in Reaping and Sowing principle, though. Much empirical evidence of that dynamic: eat too much you get fat and unhealthy, drink to much you get liver disease, call down God’s judgment on innocent victims, you get the cancer (jk, I slipped that one in :lol: )

  154. Where’s your love for your enemy, Alex? –You keep tossing that around. Where’s yours?

  155. And it is you that is in denial, if you really believe your children are not feeling your anger.

  156. You are the adult now, Alex. Do you realize this?

  157. I’m not angry with my children, in fact my wife gets mad at me for being too much of softy and spoiling them :-)

  158. It is one thing to do something about what happened to you. But it is quite another to wage an all out war on someone, just because he did not have it in him to take up your cause.

  159. And believe it or now, Alex, you really can at some point walk away from your stepfather and mother and all of what happened to you. Maybe the reason you have the need to keep on fighting, is because you fear what will happen if you are still and stop all of this.

  160. As long as you are fighting, you feel a sense of sanity about you, in that those thoughts in your head are silenced. Perhaps you fear what might happen if you stop fighting?

  161. “Where’s your love for your enemy, Alex? –You keep tossing that around. Where’s yours?”

    I’m glad you asked this, because it’s connected to a much bigger more important point than me or BG or Chuck…and it underpins a real important philosophical conclusion I’ve come to from this whole ordeal (which I value greatly):

    What is it to love my enemy?

    Let me ask this Debra: If I exacted vengeance on my enemies and i tortured them, would that be “loving my enemy”? Would it be “good”? “Righteous”? “Holy”? “Sin”?

  162. I’m not saying you are angry with your children. I am saying your children can feel your anger towards others.

  163. “I am saying your children can feel your anger towards others.”

    How so? I don’t express much anger towards others when I’m around them.

  164. Again, Alex, where is your love for your enemies?

  165. You do realize you tapped danced around that question.

  166. Debra, do you believe God is a God of vengeance? Wrath? A God who sends his enemies to hell and tortures them forever with no end?

  167. Which question, the kids or the love your enemy?

  168. You’re the adult now, Alex. Are you going to spend YOUR children’s childhoods licking your wounds from your childhood?

  169. Seriously, it ruined your childhood. Are you going to let it ruin your adult life too? YOU are in charge now. YOU call the shots now.

  170. Your hurt is no longer your stepfather’s fault, as you are out of his home. YOU and YOU alone, continue to allow yourself to be hurt. YOU could choose to walk away from the hurt and go forward with your life and stop living in the past.

    God is right there, trying to reach you. Take His hand. And He will save your soul and save your mind and body too, as this stress is not good for you.

  171. It’s not ruining my life, other than the hassle of a Calvary Chapel funded (monies are fungible and donations are paying for the lawsuit in some capacity) and Chuck Smith approved lawsuit (which is supposedly forbidden according to one bible passage, but that is easily explained away).

    But, I won’t argue that point with you any longer, you can continue to believe what you like.

  172. Debra, do you believe God sends his enemies to hell in perpetual torture? Is that “loving your enemies”? this is an important question…

  173. From what I just read on your site, your stepfather lost his suit against you. What suit are you talking about here.

  174. I have been blessed with much peace when I realized through all of this that God does in fact “love his enemies” and as such will not exact vengeance and will not torture folks in hell forever with no end.

    If I exact vengeance and tortured my enemies, you would say I am not loving, but in sin and evil and bitter or unforgiving or whatever….and you cannot hold God to a lesser standard or you are forced to redefine the Universal definitions of “love” and “good’ etc.

    The two positions aren’t compatible. God cannot be “good” and “love” and cannot “love his enemies” per the “new law” Jesus laid down…and yet exact vengeance and torture his enemies in hell forever.

    Much much much peace and joy from that realization. It has never sat well with me that God would torture in hell forever the vast majority of humanity who have never heard the “correct” Gospel message with no opportunity, no chance to respond to it….and thus burn in hell forever. It’s myth…and that realization through this ordeal gives me peace and hope.

  175. Now the Calvinist like Piper gives God a pass for what is considered Universally evil and not good and not love by saying, “Well he’s God, he can do whatever he wants!”

    At least the Calvinist is honest about the two Gods presented in the bible and the double-standard that fundamentalists are forced to defend…one high standard for man…one very low standard for God.

  176. No, we initially thought he lost from our read of the preliminary ruling…but the final ruling went against us at the local level. Fortunately, our attorneys took it up on Appeal and the Appeals Court agreed to hear it. It’s in the Appeal’s court process now.

  177. As for your question about hell:

    Hell is where people who do not want to be God go to. –And I believe that the pain that they will feel when cast into the lake of fire is the pain of not being with God. But it would have been a choice that each person in hell chose.

    Think about it like this, Alex:

    You have a lot of hurt in your life, all due to the lack of love by those who hurt you. Have you ever imagined a world with any love at all? That would hurt a lot. Yes? Of course, yes. Well, that’s what hell and the lake of fire is, a world without love. This is because God is love. And where there is no God, there is NO love. And I mean, NONE AT ALL. So, yes, that will be a very painful place.

    The pain of hell and the lake of fire is the result of being without God, without Love, forever and ever in and for eternity. If you think growing up with that stepfather was painful, you should really not want to end up in a place that is totally void of God, void of God’s Love. But if you choose to continue to think you are too good for God, that you are better than Him, that as long as you don’t worship Him, you are allowed to keep hating your stepfather and all who dare to not pick up your cause, then you will one day end up there. Tell me, Alex, who is shooting you in the foot? You are. You are your own worst enemy. Daddy-dearest hurt you and now you are finishing the job. –Not smart, Alex. NOT smart.

  178. Typo: to be with* God

    Hell is where people who do not want to be WITH God go to.

  179. Debra, my atheist friends say they will gladly believe in God and Jesus and apologize and try to make peace with them if they die and stand before them in the afterlife as they will then have evidence to believe. It’s not that they don’t want God, they simply don’t have the same evidence that Thomas, an Apostle, required to believe.

    When and if they get it, they’ll gladly believe.

    General revelation isn’t enough for them, they want to poke the holes in Jesus’s hands, like Doubting Thomas required and was granted.

  180. I am sorry to hear of the lawsuit against you. Is your stepfather suing you because of what you’ve said about him online?

  181. Debra, no one wants to go to hell. When confronted with evidence they will gladly believe and make peace with a good and loving God who you say won’t forgive them at that point and will cast them into eternal torture anyways?

  182. …again, more mythology of the Christian fundamentalist in my opinion and far more important than Chuck, BG, CC or me or you.

  183. Alex, your Atheist friends do not worship God for the same reason you don’t. They do not want to stop doing what they are doing wrong. Basically, you and your Atheist friends want to be your own gods.

  184. Debra. do you believe God has Free Will and that he is all powerful or do you believe God is bound by some eternal contract that forces him to not grant a second chance when folks finally see “all” and get the evidence they require (like Thomas) to believe?

  185. Alex, if you and your friends don’t want to know God here, what makes you think you all would want to know Him after death? –No one is going to end up in hell by accident, Alex.

    Though people in hell will hate it, they will not change their minds. Neither will you, if you end up there. If you think you are hard here and impossible, you will be totally un-movable there. You will be harder than the most hardened substance on earth.

  186. Debra, no that is a mischaracterization.

    Everyone sins and does what they want to some degree or another.

    Do you still sin Debra? If so, which sins? Why do you still do it if you know it’s sin? Are you being your own God by continuing to sin?

  187. Debra, I do want to know God here. I would love nothing more than to have the 100% correct absolute truth on all matters and I would also love to see supernatural legit miracles like the New Testament. Just one dude walking on water or turning water into wine would be really cool.

    I believe God is, I just don’t presume to know how it all works other than to have faith in the promises that God is “Love” and that he is “Good” and that those terms are Universals and not the Calvinist “well God can do what he wants, he’s God” stuff that excuses evil.

  188. Alex, it is your rejection of Jesus Christ (of God) that will keep you out of heaven. And no, I do NOT reject Jesus. THAT is the only unforgivable sin, Alex, calling the Holy Spirit a liar, when He witnesses Jesus Christ to you. That is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is the unforgivable sin, when a person dies having till death rejected Jesus Christ. You condemn yourself to hell, because you believe not on the Son of God.

  189. ….now i do know how it doesn’t work, from a literal fundamentalist perspective. I used to be a fundie and i know the rule book pretty darn well…and there are huge gaps and contradictions in the belief system and especially in practice. I point it out to drive people away from that error and toward what I believe is the true “good news”

  190. I don’t reject Jesus at all. I’m cool with Jesus. I can’t prove him, but if he’s real, I appeal to him as Messiah, if that’s the standard.

  191. Jesus stands at the door of your heart and wants you to let Him in. Then He will save you. He will cleanse you. He will then make you righteous in Him. And His Holy Spirit will then teach you in all things. But you cannot be taught, till He is in you, till He has saved your soul and made you spiritually born from above. You are not spiritually alive yet, Alex. Therefore, you cannot presently understand the things of God. You need to have a willing heart, to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you will come into His kingdom and begin to learn all things.

  192. And believe me when I say, you can do a lot more in combating the wrongs of your stepfather and other men like him, if you are child of God’s. And can do it all in a way that does not bring harm to you or indirect harm to your little family.

  193. …but I don’t think it matters whether it’s on this stage of the journey or the next stage. I don’t think things work that way.

    Your position is that God is bound by some sort of eternal contract that has a time-date stamp on it. If the person doesn’t hear the gospel while they’re alive or if they hear a version of the gospel but for some reason don’t believe usually due to lack of evidence…then they croak, then they stand before God and go, “Oh crap, it’s real. Hello God and Jesus, wow you’re real. Well, I’m sorry, I believe now” that a “good” and “loving” and “forgiving” God is forced to torture “his enemies” in hell forever…is a very odd and illogical position.

  194. Then YOU will be an anointed child of God’s. And then God will use YOU for the good of His kingdom.

  195. This does not mean you will never mess up, as we all still mess up, as long as we are in this earthly flesh.

  196. Debra, I was a fundamentalist, it’s simply not as you describe. Nothing happened, in fact it was worse.

  197. But it will mean you will be a new creation in Christ, and that God will begin a good work in you that HE will see through to completion. In other words, it would be HIS work in you that does things in you.

  198. If you don’t reject Jesus Christ, Alex, then cry out to Him right now. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you and to save you.

  199. Alex, it is written that if you had been one of Jesus’ sheep, you would not have left. Jesus is more than able to keep His own. He does not slumber. –You need to call on Him in truth. You need to ask Him to save you, right now.

  200. Debra said, “Then YOU will be an anointed child of God’s. And then God will use YOU for the good of His kingdom.”

    I already do good for whatever “the Kingdom” is…so do a lot of my LDS friends and Atheist friends etc. This is another conservative fundamentalist mythology. Many folks other than fundies do good things for “the least of these” all the time and from a good heart that is truly just helping out of compassion for their fellow man, much like the non-approved-religion Good Samaritan.

  201. The Parable of the Good Samaritan

    25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

    26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

    27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

    28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

    36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

    37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

  202. I am the Good Samaritan when I stick up for my brothers and many others who have been hurt by Calvary Chapel pastors and the church.

    My atheist attorneys are the Good Samaritan when they help me and Tim against the evil lawsuit.

    Many non-conservative-fundies are the Good Samaritan when they feed, cloth, provide care for folks in need etc. out of a compassion for their fellow man or “neighbor”

  203. Debra said, “Alex, it is written that if you had been one of Jesus’ sheep”

    Ya, and it is written that God loves his enemies and that God is love and good, etc.

  204. Alex, I had believed that I was a Christian from a child. And then when I was around 30 years old, I realized that I had not even fully understood who Jesus Christ is. I was being told that He IS God. And that just threw me. I just did not get it. So I said a prayer. I asked God to show me, if Jesus is God. At that moment I called up a man that I called a minister, the one who I trusted. And I asked him if Jesus is God. And he said, “Well, yes.” And I asked him why he never taught on that. And he said because it was confusing to people. Then we ended up off of the phone very quickly, which was very odd for this man, who could talk for hours. Years later I found out right from this same man, that he did not truly believe it himself. I was shocked and amazed at the same time. I believe God used this man, knowing that I trusted this man, to get me my answer, that yes, Jesus is God. And had ended up asking Jesus into my heart to save me, this time (the time around age 30) knowing and believing exactly who Jesus Christ is, Lord God, the risen Savior. And years later, when I learned this man, the “minister” was not a true believer, I truly marveled at how God got the truth to me. All I had to be was willing to hear it. Are you willing to hear it, Alex?

  205. Alex, you need to stop judging God. In other words, you need to stop thinking you can BE God. You see where that got Satan. Yes?

  206. Debra, the fact is the bible is full of duality and competing narratives. I believe God is “love” and “good” and not the vengeance and wrath and unforgiveness that doesn’t love his enemies but rather tortures them forever in hell.

    I think fundamentalists try to reconcile things that are unreconcilable and it’s largely due to a presuppositionalist position that makes the bible’s jot and tittle “god” when, in fact, God is God and we really haven’t much of a clue exactly how it all works, etc.

    We can cling to very few solid things…and the most solid is a Universal understanding of “love” and “hate” and “wrath” and “mercy” and “good” and “evil” and “forgiveness” and “unforgiveness” etc.

    As such, if God is truly “good” and truly “love” then Universal Reconciliation expressed through “new law, love your enemies…as God is perfect” is the dealio.

  207. Alex, be willing to know Jesus Christ, to be saved by Him. Ask God to show you. Then ask Jesus Christ into your heart to save you, knowing that He is Lord God, the Risen Savior.

    –Don’t think about anything else that you have read or heard, as you cannot understand the things of God, till God, Himself is in you to explain things to you.

  208. Don’t try to understand God on your own, Alex. It simply cannot be done.

    The natural man does not receive the things of the Lord, because the things of the Lord are explained by the Holy Spirit, who can only teach you AFTER you have received Jesus Christ as your Lord God and risen Savior.

    God has given you the measure of faith that you need to have, to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. It is up to you, Alex, to use that faith and to ask God to show you and for you to call on Jesus Christ in truth, to save you.

    God loves you, Alex.

    I wish good for you, that you will one day soon be one of God’s children, perhaps within minutes of this exchange, you will call on Jesus Christ in truth, to save you.

    I have to sign off and get some sleep.

    Debra…

  209. I don’t think I can be God. I believe God is the uncaused cause and creator and the unseen force that holds the universe/multi-verse together.

    I just think that it is possible that “satan” is a metaphor like much of genesis and revelation…do you believe the talking serpent/snake was literally the devil for instance? Or do you believe satan possessed the snake and made it talk? Either way you go with that one, there are philosophical implications that don’t fit your narrative, i’ve hashed them out to the end (which is one of many issues I was forced to change my position on to be intellectually honest).

    Another example: Do you believe Jesus gave the Levitical Law to Moses? The Levitical law permits Slavery, Concubines (Sex Slaves), the Execution of rebellious children with stones, permits selling your daughter into slavery, commands the execution of women who are raped who don’t protest loud enough etc.

  210. Debra said, “Don’t try to understand God on your own, Alex. It simply cannot be done.”

    Yet another competing narrative: “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling”–the bible.

    …and, “we see through a glass darkly”

  211. Again, don’t try to understand God on your own, Alex. It simply cannot be done.

    The natural man does not receive the things of the Lord, because the things of the Lord are explained by the Holy Spirit, who can only teach you AFTER you have received Jesus Christ as your Lord God and risen Savior.

    I have to sign off here,
    Debra…

  212. Debra said, “The natural man does not receive the things of the Lord, because the things of the Lord are explained by the Holy Spirit, who can only teach you AFTER you have received Jesus Christ as your Lord God and risen Savior.”

    How do you “receive the Lord”…you mean say the sinner’s prayer? Done that a zillion times. You mean get baptized? Done that twice. Take the sacraments/communion and “means of grace”…yup in spades.

    Do you mean the nebulous, “you must abide in the vine” or the more specific “Lordship salvation sin-0-meter checklist Christianity of don’t smoke, don’t drink, don’t dance and don’t chew…and don’t go with girls who do?

    I actually wrote an article about this…it’s a few down the list.

  213. Goodnight, thanks for the discussion Debra.

  214. Alex, the next verse says that it is God who works in the believer, to do His will and His good pleasure.

    Philippians 2

    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    You see, Alex. You did not know this, because you are not of God at this time. Call on Him in truth, and you will begin to learn, as I have been learning for over 20 years now. (I am now 53 years old.) You see, it is God who works in me. Outwardly, I am working out my own salvation, in that I study the word of God. But inside, it is God who is doing the REAL work in me.

    May God bless you, Alex. You need to stop trying to understand God, without God. It just cannot be done. Call on Jesus Christ in truth, to save you, to be your Lord God and risen Savior.

    Good night, Alex.

    Debra…

  215. Thank you too, Alex. Goodnight. :o)

  216. And true salvation really is simple (on our part). Jesus is who did the hard thing, and He did it cause He loves us.

    Good night,
    Debra…

  217. Debra said, “And true salvation really is simple (on our part). Jesus is who did the hard thing, and He did it cause He loves us.”

    Yes, Jesus paid the price for all…Universal Reconciliation….the debt is paid and God doesn’t necessarily require some sort of quid pro quo to get the get-out-of-hell free card. No one will knowingly choose hell (if there is such a place) and God doesn’t need to torture them forever if he is truly love and truly good and if Jesus truly paid the debt for mankinds’ sin already.

  218. Alex, believe and be saved. –Jesus did not die in vain. There’s a reason He took all of our sins upon Him on that cross. The reason is that He wanted to save us from hell. Anything less, is saying He died in vain, for no real reason. And that is just not so, Alex. Jesus did not die in vain. He is risen, Alex. Call on Him in truth. Stop making excuses not to.

    Goodnight, Alex. :)

  219. Ug I cant take it any more, dont want to know God? It is the one over arching aspect of my every single breath. Dont want to know God???? Do you think I got up some night and decided to not want to know God or to actively deny God. I beg God on a daily basis to know Him. I have been accused of not knowing God, hating God, cursing God, worshiping Satan, being human (which is the vilest of sins), etc. Not want to know God??????????????? We stay up nights, literally, trying to do that. Being in the evangelical Church for some 31 years off and on I have come to understand, I do not expect God answers prayer, listens to our prayers, give us comfort, healing, hope, happiness, joy, grace, peace, love etc. Those are unreasonable expectations. I get that, I dont even expect God to kill me when I make a mistake or reject Him, I have no expectations of God, I do have some hope, which is vile and demonic on my part, I get that in spades.
    Debra do you actually expect God to do anything, it was drilled into my very fiber to do such a thing is totally of Satan. God does what He wills when He wills and any expectation of God is always of the devil. God wants overcomers, those that deal with and move on and above all never show emotions. Like I have said in the past, its not really good news for most of us, not at all.

  220. an aside and I have said this in the past, what a strange religion it really is.

  221. Okay, I guess I am going to be up for a little bit longer.

    Brian, what are you trying to say to me. I am not sure what you are trying to say.

  222. Well, perhaps you signed off, Brian. –If you come back, please feel free to contact me at djms@debrajmsmith.com –Be sure to copy/paste that address into an email, so that you get the full thing.

    Hope you’ll feel free to email me too, Alex, if you would ever like to.

    May God bless you both.

    Goodnight for real this time. :)
    Debra…

  223. “Chuck Smith is heaven, with God.”

    Prove it.

  224. “Your hurt is no longer your stepfather’s fault, as you are out of his home. YOU and YOU alone, continue to allow yourself to be hurt. YOU could choose to walk away from the hurt and go forward with your life and stop living in the past. ”

    Says pop psychology… And Joel Osteen theology…

  225. I do appreciate that Debra did not entertain Alex’s Bible challenges because they lead to a dead end.

    We need to focus on Jesus.
    That was the answer to Debra’s non-answers.

    It is only thru the power of the Holy Spirit…not by might…not by power but
    by the Spirit….

    I myself am pondering how far one can go to ignore the Holy Spirits urgings to the believer to do what is right and still be walking in the Spirit.

    Taking a man away from the pulpit who is a “spokesman” for him ,who has failed Timothy requirements of an elder (not forgetting the Moses model of CC’s) would seem to be a Spirit led decision, right?

    How much leeway ought a Pastor have?
    Seems to me they are under greater scrutiny as a teacher if the Word, according to the NT.

    Do we just say “they are sinners just like the rest of us” and let it go?
    I think we who have been in CC and are now out, understand the brainwashing tactics of this particular subject.

    I do remember yrs ago CS made a trip to my old CC because word had gotten out that emergent church had crept in. I was not there for the sermon he gave but I appreciated his involvement at the time. Seems to me Alex’s accusations were far greater and would provoke more concern, but had more far reaching repercussions.

  226. I just wanted to lookup the roots of my salvation some 20+ yrs. ago. I looked up Applegate Fellowship for a song they used to sing called Oh! Consuming Fire! ; and then I find your Blog! Then find out Pastor Chuck just past yesterday! Then I find you making accusations about the man of God! WOW! Do you know the first thing God showed me in a life changing dream was that the CHURCH CAN’T SAVE YOU! You are never supposed to look to man to save your soul or you look to them to fix problems of abuse in any venue! Man! ; the only gift God left to the church was the 5 -fold. ie. Apostle ,Prophet , Pastor, Evangelist & Teacher. Which ever one you are you Better find yourself in it!! and produce some good fruit that you hope can be Half! as good as Pastor Chuck’s . Is this the kind of fruit you want to produce ; An Abuse Blog! I suggest to you my brother get a life in CHRIST! The Bible was given to us so that our lives would be Trans -Formed. Not for this! Now if you believe God’s word is true (not the mistakes of Man’s sin’s) Then forgive these people and move on!

    In reference to the scripture : “Touch not my anointed and do my Prophet’s no harm ” :
    Was this not written before Pastor Chuck was born?
    Is this not the word of God that King David obeyed and did as do to obedience?
    Was not King Saul at the time evil in the presence of God?
    Is not Pastor Chuck dead today on the 4th day of October 2013 ; and the Bible still stands with that word in it!

    Therefore my brother he was giving you God’s Word to save your life , he already had his salvation . Your heart!! is the only thing that man can’t see, but God can.

    It took David I believe 14 yrs. before he became King. Will you allow God to make you in due time so you can recieve your office in the Body of Christ and the Kingdom of God?

    I’m Just Saying!

  227. Alex you are correct. All men are fallible. And each one has a journey that one day will end here on earth. Even CC Pastors are fallible. I have sympathy for those who have suffered at the hands of fallible men. They are all over the place. I have personally worked to help victims of abuse in the US and Internationally. I have been in the trenches physically fighting to protect innocent individuals. Your soul needs healing like all of us. The best way to do that is to find and understand your maker and know that GOD will pay everyone’s the wages that they deserve. As for Chuck the man he has done way more good that bad.

  228. Roland, I do think Chuck did a lot of good…unfortunately there is the other side of things and that’s what this blog addresses. There are plenty (probably 99.9999%) of Praise Chuck sites and public comments etc…this is one that tells the other side of the story.

    As to “GOD will pay everyone’s wages that they deserve”…I hope not. I hope Chuck got mercy and grace and is in heaven if such a place exists in some form. I hope that for everyone, even the “enemy”.

    Now here on earth there’s the Reaping and Sowing Principle and there’s standing up for victims and attempting to hold the powerful accountable against the weak, etc. and being the Good Samaritan etc…but ultimately my sincere hope is that BG, Chuck, Charles Manson, Gahndi, Mother Teresa, you name it…that God fixes “all” and is truly love and truly good and truly capable and reconciles and redeems the whole of his creation.

  229. Dee said, “and the Bible still stands with that word in it!”

    Yes, and the bible also says “love your enemies as your father in heaven is perfect” and Jesus supposedly said, “I give you a new law…law of love for even enemies” which the connection to God in heaven means God loves his enemies as well and will redeem them here or in the next.

  230. Debra said, “Alex, believe and be saved.”

    OK, I believe, I’m saved! Woohoo! :-)

    …but supposedly even “the devil and demons believe”

    So there’s got to be more to it, no?

  231. I spoke to Pastor Chuck on the phone about 8 or 9 months ago. As always, he was kind and compassionate toward me. In keeping with the way he always interacted with me since I was a child. Nobody is perfect and I’m sure Pastor Chuck would be the first to admit he wasn’t either. I will always remember his kindness and warmth toward me.

    I think when people pass, it is probably a good time to reflect not on the things they could have done differently; rather a time to pause and think about the things you would want to be remembered for.

  232. Look people. Bottom line, Chuck allowed a man accused of many crimes by many people to remain in good standing as a pastor of one of his franchises. Even the secular world will put the accused on admin leave while they AND police investigate. Cover-ups, non-reporting, etc are no-brainer no-no’s. How sad that the world is handling the Sanduskys and others better than God’s house is. Heck, even the Visalia police dept made Bob step down from his chaplain position.

    Chuck says he “looked into it”, but where was the Matthew 18 sit-down? Reports of procedures followed and findings? He has stepped in and auth’d full-scale investigations of lesser offenses. Some have said Chuck didn’t owe Alex anything (with which I disagree), but he sure as heck owed it to CCV. The kicker is Chuck told Alex he believed him and acknowledged the abuse from the pulpit, and STILL DID NOTHING. It is beyond my comprehension why that is less grievous to some than Alex’ language or timing.

    But of course Chuck couldn’t yank the Dove, bc he was simultaneously proclaiming for the Idaho case in court that he held no authority over any CC except his own. Alex has thoroughly documented many cases of Chuck intervening elsewhere, as well as stopping a group of CC pastors who were planning to confront Bob.

    Yes he’s gone now, but what will the new regime do to handle corruption in the camp?

  233. “In reference to the scripture : “Touch not my anointed and do my Prophet’s no harm ” :
    Was this not written before Pastor Chuck was born?
    Is this not the word of God that King David obeyed and did as do to obedience?
    Was not King Saul at the time evil in the presence of God?
    Is not Pastor Chuck dead today on the 4th day of October 2013 ; and the Bible still stands with that word in it!”

    Honestly, that is the mot muddled thinking I’ve heard lately trying to somehow justify that a story is timeless and applies to today.

    Just because David chose to consider the guy “The LORD’s anointed” and then to make a leap in logic and say that ChuckSr was “God’s anointed” and therefore should be treated as David regarded Saul is such a stretch of the imagination that it really needs to be rethought, and to assert that, because words in a book predate and outlast the lifetime of any human somehow elevates the book to infallibility is stunningly troublesome. Not everything in an ancient book directly applies to our issues of today. We have developed a system of checks and balances within healthy organizations. We see these used to protect the ones who should be safeguarded. ChuckSr did a lot of admirable things but his oversight and game playing regarding elders & stewards within his “Calvary Chapel Movement” will prove to be one of his greatest failings.

  234. Love you Pauly! Good pic bro. You’ve got a good heart.

  235. Can someone send me a testimony of the time that Pastor Chuck Smith said he recognized his wretchedness before God and from no commitment or giving of “his life” but a just dying into the Death of Jesus by Faith, which was when he was born anew of the Spirit?

    I can’t find any evidence of such a day on my internet searches.
    and niether regarding Rick Warren.

    If , and I am not the judge of them. but If they were never born Anew, then it explains the complicated “process” of making your self right and getting resaved and more recommiments ad naseum and also the running of the Purpose Driven Race track. All of the above accomplished by reading their books and following them….

    Vs being Truly Born anew and letting the Holy Spirit teach and reveal all you are and all you have in Jesus!! Saves you a lot of money when saved in Trustin God to be your teacher and leader. And we all have the same anointing , just we have different gifts.

    Beware of sitting at the feet of “chiristan gurus”

    Sola Deo Gloria

  236. Only one reason in the world why a pastor, overseer of so many other pastors, would know about abuse and not lift a finger to stop it or make that corrupt pastor step down if for no other reason than to protect other children or make a case for the pastor’s repentance. And I don’t buy that Chuck was just too tired as any excuse, though he may indeed have been too tired.

    The reason for not doing anything had two syllables….. Cha-ching. I’m no lawyer but I’m wondering (having come from a family of Jewish Beverly Hills lawyers) didn’t Alex and his brother(s) have legal recourse against Calvary Chapels over this? I mean look how many of the victims of that Penn State pedofile ring were attempting to get millions in settlements. And they deserved every cent they sought for the college allowing that monster to defile those poor innocent boys. Why did Penn State hide these crimes? Either they wanted to maintain their reputation for their continued profit, or they were in on the human trafficking.

    Why don’t we see a problem with the fact that Christianity is being used by the organized church for monetary gain, for CEO aspirations, for power, fame (not referring necessarily to Chuck but to organized religion in general)?

    Please Christians, true followers, let us not be blind. Would Jesus have allowed one of His disciples to molest children right under His nose? Would Jesus not have shown compasssion for one and want justice or God’s vindication for that which was done?

    I do not hate Chuck or want to attack his memory. But attacking the victims of those Chuck allowed to stand behind the pulpit is hardly Christlike or productive.

    Saying Alex is unsaved and needs a heart check and misinterpreting his blog is really just as immature as those attacking proclaim Alex is. I find it offensive when people attack the victim of a crime, especially when it involves child abuse and others could be victimised when the abuser continues.

    Something is wrong in the church overall if the leadership model will not allow a victim recourse and denies corruption. That does not seem to be Christlike at all but smacks of the Holy Roman Empire, dark ages mentality.

  237. “I think when people pass, it is probably a good time to reflect not on the things they could have done differently; rather a time to pause and think about the things you would want to be remembered for.”

    Paul, well spoken. Wishing you the best.

  238. Alex use your powers (whatever they may be) for good. Let’s make the world a better place. Let’s all do the best we can for the common good of man. There are to many bad examples for us to see. If to tear down a community of believers or point out a spec or log in someones eye is your example of making the world better, I suggest that you find a calling that has a helping hand towards the hurting. Use your personal pain as a way to stop someone else’s pain. Keep your blog, and find time to uplift a hurting soul.

  239. Paul

    If you made peace with CS, why since have you allowed Alex to use your situation as part of lawsuit against BG?

    I thought you were on the same quest for justice (BG being pulled from the pulpit and CS’s responsibility in doing so)?

  240. Not that its my business but as someone involved here for 3+ yrs.
    I know you shared your testimony here.

  241. Roland said, “Alex use your powers (whatever they may be) for good”

    I don’t have any superpowers. I have some limited talents and I try to use them for good by publicly addressing abuses in the Calvary Chapel system of churches since CC doesn’t deal with abuses properly which results in a lot of hurt and disillusioned folks whose only recourse is “there’s the door!” and then they are shunned, marginalized, smeared etc in a very cult-like manner.

  242. Hannah, the lawsuit isn’t against BG, BG (and funded by donations of CCV and/or CC monies according to sources and tacitly or directly approved by Chuck) brought the lawsuit against me…but for some reason he didn’t bring the suit against Paul who came forward with public testimony (on this blog) of being molested.

    I believe Paul and published the testimony about a public figure in a position of trust as pastor and police chaplain (at the time) of the Visalia Police Department.

    Bob and my mom (and CC IMO), sued me, not Paul…which is very telling and interesting…why? b/c they wanted to shut me up through intimidation and CC wants the whole blog to go down. If it was about Paul’s molestation allegations, they would have sued Paul, not me.

    IMO, it’s a Calvary Chapel (as a Corporate Brand and System) power play…if it were about Paul’s molestation allegations against Bob, a sitting and active and fully endorsed Calvary Chapel Pastor…they would have sued Paul b/c Paul is the one making that accusation…I simply believe him and voiced my belief in his testimony publicly.

  243. I want to state I didn’t see Paul’s 235 before posting my 236. Mine was in no way a response or rebuttal to his. Paul, I deeply respect you and your heart of forgiveness and kindness.

  244. Hi Hannah:

    To clarify, Bob Grenier filed the lawsuit against Alex. I am not named in that lawsuit as a defendant. I have never stated that I had an issue with Chuck Smith. Alex’s concerns with Chuck Smith are his and I support him in his defense of the lawsuit Bob filed against him. Further, I have always made clear that I think Bob Grenier needs to be held accountable, not Calvary Chapel in its entirety.

  245. Alex
    I understand but I believed part of the situation was taking BG down from the pulpit based on Paul’s situation.
    ‘If Paul has no grievances with CS, and doesn’t care if CS did anything about BG continuing ministry, why should we?
    Doesn’t appear he believes CS was responsible and /or accountable to act.

    BTW, did u ever get the email that CS knew you never got? Seems it would be in his
    ‘sent” box and would have been easy enough to resend.

  246. One last point of clarification in regards to what I said in my declaration. The one and only time I mention Chuck Smith in regards to my statement is as follows:

    1. I do not disagree that Bob’s reputation is tarnished. However, he has nobody but himself to blame for his poor reputation. Actions have consequences and the truth always has a way of coming out. Even Bob’s own pastor, Chuck Smith, Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, has told me on the phone how very sorry he is for what I have gone through and that he wishes Bob would just stop all of this “lawsuit nonsense”. Pastor Dave Rolph, Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Aliso Viejo, has spoken to me on a number of occasions and expressed his deepest sympathies and sorrow for what I am being put through because of this lawsuit that Bob has filed against Alex. I agree that Bob’s reputation has been tarnished, but one must ask themselves who is to blame for that? That blame falls squarely on Bob’s shoulders for the crimes he has committed against me and my two (2) older half-brothers.

  247. Paul, sent mine before reading yours.
    As I said it is not my business at all.

  248. Hannah, I never got “the email” that Chuck referenced from the CCCM pulpit.

    Paul and I agree regarding BG, and we disagree regarding Chuck’s and CC’s responsibility in these sorts of matters. I can respect his disagreement on that issue w/o it being an issue between us.

  249. Paul

    For those not aware of my former correspondence to you via this blog- I have nothing but respect and compassion for you.

  250. OK Alex-perhaps I missed that you and Paul were not on the same pg. re: CS responsibility in the matter.

  251. Ps- last night found an old vhs called “The Apostle” (Robert Duvall-1989)
    He gets kicked out by the elders.
    What responsibility if any do the elders in CC’s have to dismiss the Pastor?
    Have we any examples of this In Calvary Chapels?
    So is it really CS’s responsibility?
    Anything in the distinctives about this?
    (Mine long disposed of)

  252. Hannah, Chuck has directly intervened in so-called “independent” Calvary Chapel franchises over the years….some of those specific examples are documented on this site.

    The man lied…a lot. I didn’t trust him and I didn’t believe what he and Rolph told Paul. I think they tell Paul one thing and BG another.

  253. Good Afternoon, Alex!

    That is interesting that you speak of James 2:19, which says, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

    It is interesting that you speak of that verse, because that is what you do. You believe in the same way that demons believe in God. But you don’t have the “work of the Lord” in you, because you don’t have the Lord in you, because you are not believing on Jesus Christ for salvation. You have not REALLY called on Him in truth believing on Him for you to be saved and to become a true child of God’s.

    So yes, it is interesting that you speak of the verse that actually describes what you are doing.

    If there is no works of the Lord in a person that claims to have faith in God, that person’s faith is dead, not alive. The day you truly put your faith in Jesus Christ, for salvation, will be the day He begins a good work in you that He will see through to completion. Then you will have faith that is alive. –Of course, this is IF you ever do.

    Wishing well for you,
    Debra…

  254. Re: # 242 “I suggest that you find a calling that has a helping hand towards the hurting. Use your personal pain as a way to stop someone else’s pain. Keep your blog, and find time to uplift a hurting soul.”

    I think Alex and this blog helped me when I was victimized by other believers.

    Please let’s be objective. Who in their right mind thinks someone ought to continue behind the pulpit after molesting and abusing children? And now Alex is being criticized for blogging about leadership style that opens the doors to such abuse. How is he not helping others by doing so Roland?

    I could cut and paste lots of links on here about the spiritual abuses in the church and many are sexual abuses because of the “touch not God’s annointed” misuse of pastors. Much of this problem comes not just from CCs. It is prevalent in the Baptist congregations and also in the Purpose Driven leadership style churches. Warren is big on promoting this kind of not accepting criticism or correction style of leadership. So it is very prevalent in the church today. I could site many instances where my own family was victimised by purpose drivel of past churches (non-CC.)

    I think preventing further victimization is the best thing Alex could do to continue the healing process.

  255. I love how Debra seems to know that Alex is not saved. She must be specially anointed. What other special powers do you have Debra?

    So what are all the hoops that the unsaved need to jump through to be saved?

  256. There’s no doubt, Cathryn, that ministers who abused children (or anyone) should be forced out. But we cannot control others. We cannot make CC force Alex’s father to step down. We can, however, control ourselves and not allow abuse taken at the hands of another person continue to haunt us long after the abuse has ended.

    I am not saying to not expose an abusive situation, if that is what is needed. But we don’t have to allow it to ruin us. And we don’t have to allow it to make us bullies to people who just don’t have it in them to do the right thing. Sometimes, walking away really is the right answer.

  257. re: comment 259 about me

    It is not as if Alex keeps it a secret.

  258. You know sometimes it get’s tiresome to hear the stuff from a secular intellectual aspect. For some to “bag” on someone to show his imperfections is totally jacked.
    It’s really not that hard to figure it out. The only one who really knows who’s anointed and who’s not is God. Every human being on this earth before & after Jesus Christ’s birth is born imperfect. Chuck Smith knew that as does anyone who truly believes The Bible.
    There are laws instituted in different aspects of our society some for protection of human life, some for protection of civil rights and some which don’t make any sense at all. Do all people follow them? Of course not. The Bible is an outline of the Love of God and how he wants no one to live eternally without him. Do all people follow it? Of course not. Both the law & The Bible come down to a simple answer. Free Will.
    I just lost my wife July 24 to Pancreatic Cancer. She was only 53. Do I understand why? No. Did I get angry with God? Yes. I’m the 1st guy to admit to being far from perfect, if it weren’t for God’s Grace in my life I wouldn’t stand a chance to see my wife & family again.
    Do I consider God taking my wife as His judgement on her life? Of course not.
    There are imperfect human beings in any religion or spiritual belief. I never heard Chuck Smith or any Calvary Chapel pastor say they were anointed. What they say it as is a warning in general because no one knows who’s anointed & who’s not only God. (It’s much like the saying be careful who you pick a fight with when you don’t know the person, he could be a 10th degree black belt.) My basic frustration with your mentality and others like you is where is the misguided “bashing” of anyone from any denomination is made public especially at a time when his family and friends are grieving losing him and will be missing him.

  259. #248 your comment
    “To clarify, Bob Grenier filed the lawsuit against Alex. I am not named in that lawsuit as a defendant. I have never stated that I had an issue with Chuck Smith. Alex’s concerns with Chuck Smith are his and I support him in his defense of the lawsuit Bob filed against him. Further, I have always made clear that I think Bob Grenier needs to be held accountable, not Calvary Chapel in its entirety.”

    Just so you know, I was not implying anyone ought to sue anyone or did. I’m sorry if I gave that impression. I was however implying the opposite. What I meant was that if Alex or his siblings were as vindictive as the CC defenders are accusing them of then they probably could have had grounds for a huge lawsuit.

    I don’t recommend suing anyone. But I do suspect that all of the sudden Smith backpeddled on helping Alex because a lawyer covering his assets might have told him he better stay out of it (or possibly lose how many millions.) Just my own suspicion, but no evidence. I really doubt Smith or any of these mega-pastors avoid lawyers when these sorts of things suddenly come up. Would you call a lawyer if your multi million organization had millions to lose?

    Like I said, I’m no expert. I base what I would do in the situation on the Bible. But having been a news reporter, I know how human nature reacts. People who run multi million dollar organizations call lawyers when they are concerned about what someone else might do. That was all that I meant.

    I hope I did not offend anyone by stating the obvious.

  260. re:258; Cathryn- Alex. You are both missing the point. I can see how one can drive the other. You will forever drive your emotions living in a constant cocoon of non healing. Let’s all hate the sin against abuse, but live for the comfort of healing. Lets be honest and escape hyperbole. Alex I did not say super power but the limited power that you have. I’m all for stopping abusers. Healing is what we can do after the damage has been done. That is healthy. Refusing to go on will stagnate and destroy your life

  261. Is that what the pharisees told Jesus when He took out His whip?

  262. Re: Roland’s comment “You are both missing the point. I can see how one can drive the other. You will forever drive your emotions living in a constant cocoon of non healing.”

    Okay, I see your point that one ought not nurse their wounds. But I do think evil in the church and potential corruption ought not be ignored. Did the apostles recommend doing that?

    Just because someone is addressing evil does not mean they are nursing their wounds feeling sorry for themselves or as you say, “living in a cacoon or non healing.”

    Have you ever been molested or beaten by a clergyman?

    My husband and I were both molested as children, neither by clergymen. But if I were abused by a clergyman I would hope no one would say to me, “get over it” as has been said on this blog. That seems rather unsympathetic and completely un like anything Jesus would say to someone. In fact Jesus said in the word that if someone is tempted to abuse a child it would be better if they cut off a body part then have their soul in danger (I’m paraphrasing.)

    Also, sometimes God uses people fighting injustice to heal them. After I had an abortion I became a Christian. And God used my helping unwed mothers and counseling them to keep their babies in order to heal me of the scars that left on my life. That could be a bad example to use but I think you get the point. God could use Alex writing this blog against spiritual abuse in order to heal him and his family. Who are we to judge that. I don’t see him immaturely attacking people. He usually stays on track with warning about the Moses model of leadership leading to abuses. What is wrong with that?

  263. Debra J.M. Smith and others,

    Suppose for a moment and just for the sake of argument that there is no burn-at-stake-endless-torture ordained by the Almighty to punish his enemies, would you be disappointed?

  264. Muff Potter,

    The pain of hell and the lake of fire is the result of being without God, without Love, forever and ever in and for eternity. –No one in heaven, not I or anyone else, will be happy about any being ending up there. God, Himself is not happy about when a person goes to hell. But we would not be real, if God forced us to love Him. And those who do not love Him, will not be with Him in eternity. And they won’t want to be with Him. Even in hell, they would make the same choice again. Realize that a third of the angels in heaven, who had been with God, followed Satan after Satan was cast out of heaven. No one will be in hell by accident or against the person’s own will.

    Debra…

  265. One more thing on the topic of hell:

    The warning of hell is for people who will come to be saved, to believe on Jesus Christ. People who will come to be saved are the only ones who really care to not end up in hell.

  266. Tell me, Muff Potter, do you care if you end up in hell? away from God forever?

  267. And keep in mind, Muff Potter, that God is Love. So where God is not, then there is no Love.

    We see what the lack of having Godly loving earthly parents can do to a person. Emotional hurt can hurt more than any physical hurt.

    Play like John Lennon and imagine a place where God is not. Of course, John Lennon most likely did not know at the time of singing that song, that a place where God is not, there is no love either. Something tells me, he knows it now. And if that is the case, he chose such place and would choose it again.

    So again, I ask you, Muff Potter, do you care if you end up in hell? away from God forever?

  268. Sorry if I am belaboring the point. But if there were another inquisition would we say, “oh get over it. So they burned the guy at the stake. What’s the big deal. Quit nursing your wounds and move on” ?

    See that is the problem with this untouchable leadership style I see.

    No one is ever allowed to address evil.

    Is that what we should have told those touched by WWII?

    “No big deal. So your grandmom was sent to a concentration camp, just forgive Hitler and move on. Forget about the gas showers and quit nursing your wounds”

    Okay so I’m exhaggerating my point but…

    Yes, we ought to forgive. Yes we ought to move on. But if we forget the past abuses and never address them again they will creep in and abuse again. If we neglect to correct abuses altogether, then what? Didn’t Jesus correct the pharisees when they put rules and the law above the people that they where there to protect and lead to God rather than away?

    He did. He called them white washed and He called them snakes.

  269. Also, I’d advise people to look up church abuses in previous nations that fell such as Rome. I think you will see that whenever church leaders started doing that untouchable thing they are doing in all the churches now thanks purpose drivel you will see that the nation fell. Also when other countries started doing that dialectic general concensus philosophy that the globalists have infiltrated the American churches, schools and other organizations with, the country fell into revolution, like France did. People see our nation is on the brink of collapse and we are ignoring these abuses.

  270. Moving on is for the person who moves on, not the person who hurt him/her. –Do we really owe our past hurts the rest of our lives?

    We can expose past atrocities, without being overcome by them today.

  271. Debra: Do you consider your responses here as loving?

    “We can expose past atrocities, without being overcome by them today.”

    Who is being overcome by them today?

  272. “Something tells me, he knows it now. And if that is the case, he chose such place and would choose it again.”

    You are nuts lady. No one would choose to go to hell. Stop adding what you want into scripture. Your theories are full off holes and they stink like one also.

    Your comments are like those Satan tempted Christ with. People like you are why non believers don’t want anything to do with God.

  273. Debra would sit front row at the Bob Grenier worship show.

  274. Debra’s title is Informing Christian Journalist. Really? I have no inclination to look her up, but I really hope this woman’s journalism is not as uninformed, presumptive, patronizing, and condescending as it is here. Is not Alex Informing Christians as well?

    You state as fact many assumptions about his motives, psychological well-being, and eternal destiny that you could not possibly be privy to. Yes, some of your statements are based on his words, but you are adding your own caricature of him.

    This is the crux of the matter, well-stated by Julie Ann on her blog, Spiritual Sounding Board: “Chuck Smith represents the primary person who could have put a stop to the abuse that Alex, his brothers, his friends, fellow church members/staff endured. Alex, when he put up his blog, became the recipient of even more stories of abuse. Alex didn’t just stuff it, he tried to seek justice for victims – to bring light to the stories, to let God’s church be God’s church, not run by corrupt, abusive wolves.”

    Also from her: “I have seen him [Alex] want justice for victims, I have seen him call Chuck Smith out for not dealing with the abuse or for the way in which he dealt with Alex. That is not evil. That is not ill-will. That is truth.”

    Chuck failed to clean house. This truth needs to be addressed not to bash Chuck but so that the abuses do not continue.

  275. Catherine, I am so with you! This ‘not-questioning, total submission, obedience thing’, that CC pushes is NOT biblical. Now that I am out of it, I see it for what it really was, just narcissists who think they are special and like to tell everyone what to do. I’ve never been to one CC that wasn’t like that and I’ve been to a lot. The Moses Model leadership style is not being a servant at all. It opens the door to all kinds of spiritual abuse. Honestly, I don’t think Chuck meant for it to go as far as it did, it just was the natural progression of things. I think most large Calvary Chapels are just big Christian businesses. Unfortunately and very sadly so. I don’t mean to offend any of you CC’ers who are not like this as I’m sure there are some.

    I do understand how some of you can tell Alex to get on with his life and such because I used to be the same way. Until I left CC and started actually using logic and thinking for myself and asking myself what was really right and wrong. Talk about suffering from cognitive dissonance! I hardly look at anything the same way anymore. And guess what?!! I have so much more love for people than I ever did when I attended CC. I’m so ashamed of myself.

    I am a Jesus lover and follower now. And can I tell you that I’ve been shunned and treated worse by CC’ers than by anyone. They are argumentative, sarcastic, unloving and don’t think for themselves! I sincerely hope they are not all like that, but I know very many from all the years that I’ve attended. It is one of the biggest heartbreaks I have ever experienced in my entire life. How can one explain the heartbreak that is caused by being called an enemy of CC and shunned by it’s followers after giving almost their whole life to that way of life? There are no words to explain the total devastation and heartbreak it causes. All that to say, I understand Alex and I have compassion for him and those who write their words here who don’t feel compassion for him should be ashamed of themselves.

    I am proud of Alex for standing for what is right. I pray for him. Standing for what is right is never popular. It always exacts a great toll on the one doing it. Alex has guts, something I wish I had more of.

  276. Summer, thank you :-) and I agree with your insights into the dynamic, you are spot on with regards to CC.

  277. Debra said, “So where God is not, then there is no Love.”

    Question, where is God “not”? I thought he was omnipresent?

  278. Debra, is God in hell? If not, he is not “omnipresent”…that would be a place he is not present in, which makes him not omnipresent. LOL

  279. God is omnipresent*

    *but there are many exceptions, like hell and wherever Debra says he isn’t :-) :lol:

  280. On Facebook, Joe R wrote “I know that when Pastor Chuck Came into Heaven with that big smile, Jesus said ” Chuck must be here, Heaven lite up a little more brighter””

    Really? Chuck’s glory is greater than God’s glory that he outshines God?

  281. K W responded “Exactly, Joe R! There was a remarkable change in the Heavenly Atmosphere, and the Lord knew its source immediately!”

    OMG! Are they trying to be blasphemers?

  282. Pam W wrote “FOR PASTOR CHUCK – He is not gone; he’s just gone ahead, to show us all the way.”

    Wow. It keeps going on. Is Chuck now interceding between Heaven and Earth?

  283. “I could cut and paste lots of links on here about the spiritual abuses in the church and many are sexual abuses because of the “touch not God’s annointed” misuse of pastors. Much of this problem comes not just from CCs. It is prevalent in the Baptist congregations and also in the Purpose Driven leadership style churches. Warren is big on promoting this kind of not accepting criticism or correction style of leadership. So it is very prevalent in the church today. I could site many instances where my own family was victimised by purpose drivel of past churches (non-CC.)”
    When did Warren say about not criticizing leadership, besides, Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel was over a decade before Rick Warren came to Orange County. Calvary was doing things in the late 1960′s and 1970′s.
    If some people here think I’ weird I’m sorry for the things I write about I’m sorry. I’ve had a rough last two years.

  284. KW (same one above), wrote “one of God’s greatest Bible teachers”

    This is just plan crazy. What can we say?

  285. Brenda H wrote “One of the greatest bible teachers of all time – that’s Pastor Chuck”

    MC wrote “We will missed you Pastor Chuck, you’ve been a blessings to our family..we will never say goodbye because your always in our hearts…will see you in heaven…we love you”

    I thought CCites didn’t believe in praying to the dead?

    KW wrote “Focus on the fact that he has a perfect, glorified body and that he is on the Heavenly Scene!”

    Not yet, if at all. The resurrection hasn’t yet happened.

    TF wrote “Our hearts are broken for our loss but we rejoice for Chuck that his prayers have been answered. We will be with him soon.”

    I sincerely hope not.

    JK wrote “Here’s something to think about…Papa Chuck is with Jesus. Jesus lives in you, right? Chuck is as close as that.”

    Chuck is now omnipresent? And these people deny praying to saints?

    KB wrote “Wow it’s a good thing he now has his glorified body because he’ll need it with all those crowns he’s thrown.”

  286. I almost wanna go on there and post my own quotes just to see how outrageous it can get. I’d like to post, “I bet Jesus has some questions for Chuck and Chuck is loving having Jesus learning at his feet”. LOL.

    More interesting question would be what if Lonnie is in Heaven and Chuck isn’t?

  287. Pathetic, how many years have you wasted hating on Calvary Chapel pastors on here? Not just Chuck Smith, dude you tear them all down. You define the word COWARD, your wife and kids must be miserable. Get over your butthurt and GET A LIFE.

  288. If anything the comments all demonstrate that people are confused about the resurrection, thanks in no small part to Chuck Smith’s false teaching on the subject.

    The question ought to be can someone get the basics so wrong and still be saved?

  289. And to Cathryn, of course it’s ok to question someone no one is saying a pastor is above the law to be questioned, but to throw so many innocent pastors under the bus because of what his step father “allegedly” did? THAT’S WRONG. The blog should be about his step father then and no one else. So what…..if I go to McDonald’s and get food poisoning, does that mean ALL McDonald’s are bad? And if I complain to their president and he does nothing, is it HIS FAULT one chain had bad meat? So he feels bad, doesn’t mean he can go around to every stinking McDonald’s all over the world to micromanage. Come on, be logical.

  290. Doug, it really is embarrassing for these people

  291. You guys might want to check out what can be viewed about Calvary Chapel now. It will shock you. Justt enter ‘Calvary Chapel’.

  292. In YouTube I mean.

  293. Alex, God is not in hell. He won’t be in the lake of fire either.

  294. Alex’s post @ 245,

    Roland said, “Alex use your powers (whatever they may be) for good”

    Alex said, “I don’t have any superpowers. I have some limited talents and I try to use them for good by publicly addressing abuses in the Calvary Chapel system of churches since CC doesn’t deal with abuses properly which results in a lot of hurt and disillusioned folks whose only recourse is “there’s the door!” and then they are shunned, marginalized, smeared etc in a very cult-like manner.”
    ______________
    Alex, your using your talent on this blog helped me and several others from my old CC. Finding this blog and reading so many stories that seemed so similar in nature to mine, opened my eyes to the systemic issues in CC. It helped to understand more clearly what the real issues were/are and what could be done about it.

    On behalf of many of us who experienced some form of spiritual abuse in a CC, thanks Alex, again, for your willingness to be bold and speak out.

  295. Re: 107 & 108

    Grateful said @107, ” 7. People then abuse the abused by “correcting” them, laying the blame at their feet, telling them to be quiet about the abuse, demanding they stuff the pain and damage out of sight, and actively subverting the abused efforts to get the abuser to be held accountable for the safety of others.

    “I think #7 is the most painful. It’s the same as being stabbed by your “family”.

    Alex responded @ 108 “Grateful, I rarely disagree with you, but #7, at least for me, is par for the course and it doesn’t bother me, I expect if of people, especially Chuck Smith Christians*. It’s a by-product of the CCool-aid and that particular belief system and world view. They really can’t help themselves, they don’t see it….yet. It’s part of the cult-like dynamic…and while you’re drinking from the CCool-aid fountain, it’s difficult to see things differently.”
    _____________________
    True, Alex, you’ve always said that this sort of thing (#7 on my list) doesn’t bother you. You always acted even handed in your response. I still think it’s poor behavior on the part of a Christian to do this, though. I still have no respect for it; and I’ve had to repent of it, myself, in the past.

  296. Doug, those are quite the quotes of Chuck worship you found.

    Even if we were all taught to highly esteem and value what Chuck was doing, the role he played, we still should know better than to worship “Papa Chuck.” God gives examples in Scripture of how He really doesn’t like us to worship anyone of anything other than Him. That’s a huge “NO-NO”!

  297. Debra, if it is ok to use your first name, I wanted to be less cryptic in my last post let me be rather frank. As one of the fringe Christians grief, needing things, asking for help and other such things were anathema. It was fine to share a bit about loss but not to much, if one was devastated and just broken hearted, if it is not messy one could maybe share it a bit then move on. But the passionate grief, as being expressed by the loss of Pastor Smith is fine, if ever I tried that, if ever, well its not an option. I still feel guilty when I miss a dead family member, when Im not blaming myself for them rotting in hell because I did not share the gospel good enough. I hope that is a bit more clear. Of course what I am saying is in many ways twisted by time, my own emotion, and time, maybe even bitterness on my heart. I know in my head that Christians are not like this but the emotion and pain often clouds that, I lay alot of it at my own feet. Some of it was caused by the framework of how many of us deal with death and loss.

    I hope that makes it a bit clearer.

  298. Brian, I know that when suicide took place in my own family, I was encouraged to dwell on Romans 8:28 and then I was expected to function and be okay fairly quickly. When someone noted me crying, or not ready for public activity, they whispered that I wasn’t handling it well, they should pray for me. I learned who understood and was safe and then only confided in them after that.

    Now I can pick out people who are playing the role they need to in public to avoid such further hurt. I try to be there for them when they need to be raw, real, and not rushed.

  299. I wont go into why but suicide is something I am somewhat familiar with I was in the house of a person when he committed suicide as a child, another time when someone tried on our block as a kid. The blood on the second situation still sticks with me. They did effect me and I think it makes me a bit sensitive, I think there is to some degree an unclear connection. I think some of my memories are not clear. They are filtered through many years of feelings reliving the events so they are not supper clear. I admit that which is why I would never mention names when I post here and on PP and I have said this before it is because I am trying to get all this stuff out of me.

    This may sound stupid even pathetic and after 31+ years as trying to be an evangelical, but I have this silly notion of Lonnie and Chuck sitting in the bosom of Christ reconciling to the Glory of Christ. As I have understood the modern apologetic such notions are disgusting at best and total apostasy at worse, but it is how I think, no not think, it is how I hope.

  300. And it would be a genuine, real as it ever gets, reconciliation. It would not be the faked, forced, “I’m trying to look better than you” sort of “reconciliation” I think we see most often.

    I have a lot of questions. I wonder about many mysteries concerning things we “see through a glass darkly” for now. It seems the Scripture indicates we will finally KNOW when we are with Jesus, then ruling and reigning with Him in the New Heaven and the New Earth. I suspect my doubts and fears about fake “reconciliation” will be abated with the reality & Truth we will then know.

    Brian, the things you saw and experienced as a child … well, no child should have to go through that. It’s hard enough as an adult. It would certainly take a lifetime to work that out, as if it can be on this side of eternity.

  301. Grateful I disagree I should have gotten over it, no, actually it should have not had an effect like any loss or life event, it is God’s will and thus should be accepted with no emotion what so ever. It shows what a piece of crap I am, that is basically what I got from my Christian experience, one should always be over it before it even happens.

  302. Hi Alex. As a long-time occasional listener of CC broadcasts, I was shocked (and somewhat outraged) to find this blog when searching for news of Chuck Smith’s passing. I knew absolutely nothing about ANY of this. It grieves my soul. I am so sorry for what you and your siblings went through as children. It sickens me to know that the man who did these things to you is a “respected” pastor and someone of influence carrying the banner for Christ.

    My heart and prayers go out to you. Please know that God is real and God is just. Those responsible for injustice, carried out under the name of the Lord, will be dealt with and all things made right. You have a very humble heart, Alex. I pray God comforts and blesses you, and brings all things to light. Don’t ever lose heart! You’re a good person, and God will see you through this!

  303. Does anyone else think of 1 Samuel 23 for this? When King Saul wanted David’s life and attacked him viciously, and all David wanted to do was show Saul that he didnt want to harm him? Then David said that the punishment was the Lord’s to give, and Saul saw the error of his ways and saw that David was more righteous then, so he wept and went home. However, Saul felt insecure and threatened, and a couple chapters later, he went on another attack on David?

    God is amazing. He uses such godly leaders in almost identical situations, with differences only in levels of intensity.

  304. Wow! Alex You gave pastor Chuck and Calvary church a lot of power over your life. Were the police ever involved? Had your biological father passed on? If so my condolences. Since Chuck wouldn’t remove bob, why didn’t the congregation leave bob? That’s what happened in my town. Leadership.corrupt, so the congregation removed themselves from the leadership. Feel sorry for you. No amount of blogging is going to change what happened to you. Chuck is dead. He can’t change what happened to you. The Catholic church has.been exposed for decades. It still stands and it’s still happening. And don’t.believe for one minute that you are not affecting your children. By experience, I know you are. You may not see it now, but trust me it’ll. show up and cause unnecessary mess in their lives. This hatred of chuck and Calvary seems to consume you. You say the same thing over and over again. You expected something the MAN didn’t deliver. Again, were the police brought in or not?

  305. “Alex, God is not in hell. He won’t be in the lake of fire either.”

    Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

  306. For those in search of answers about Calvary Chapel, check this page out:

    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/

    You can learn what you may not have heard about the false teachings and moral scandals at CC.

  307. Psa 139:21-22

    Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

  308. THIS IS WORTH REPEATING…

    Doug Gilliland says:
    October 5, 2013 at 7:33 am
    “Alex, God is not in hell. He won’t be in the lake of fire either.”

    Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

  309. She’ll twist that verse G, to mean what she wants it to mean. It doesn’t fit into the box she has her god in.

    I’m glad God is free to do whatever He wants. He would be much of a god if he wasn’t.

  310. NA – agreed. I’d rather have an omnipresent God than a limited one.

  311. Debra J.M. Smith,

    You’ve pretty much answered my original query. You remind me very much of the brother who was very disappointed that instead of some sort of rigged punishment for his lost brother, the father orders a welcome home feast and celebration instead.

  312. That’s bogus, Muff.

    I would like to see each one of you unsaved people come to be saved and be part of the biblical Christian family. –You all know hell is real, but do not (at least at this time) want to take the one way that will get that self-placed condemnation sign off of your chests. Then you get upset that I recognize that it is your choice? Grow up.

    Don’t whine and cry and blame others for that which you are do to yourself.

  313. Re: #287 your question for me “When did Warren say about not criticizing leadership, besides, Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel was over a decade before Rick Warren came to Orange County. Calvary was doing things in the late 1960′s and 1970′s.”

    Rick Warren wrote in his Purpose Driven Church book for pastors that, in order to make the church purpose driven, for church growth purposes, the pastor had to ignore any questions or opposition from any of the hard core church members (even if they built the building themselves with their very own hands) because even if the pastor lost hundreds of formerly loyal church members in the process of becoming purpose driven they would gain many more (most likely unbelievers) in their quest for changing the church for the 21st century.

    Sadly, though Chuck backpeddled after endorsing one of Warren’s books and renounced the purpose driven books from Calvary Chapels and said anyone going purpose driven in CCs would lose the dove from their logo, more recently Chuck allowed Laurie and other prominent CC pastors to speak at Purpose Driven pastoral conventions and attend Warren’s conventions in mass over the past year or so.

    This Warren thing, sadly is one of Chuck’s poor finishes, though I respect many of the things Chuck accomplished and am grateful for what good CCs did for me and my family over the years.

    Warren is big on the touch not God’s annointed philosophy that opens the door for abuses in the churches. Do an online search in sexual abuse in the church and you may be surprised at how much more prominent it is in the protestant churches than it ever was in the Catholic Church and is covered up to keep the reputations of the churches squeeky clean. Charles Stanley chose to ignore it in the Baptist movement and Stanley was caught up in the purpose driven conferences too as are all the Southern Baptists and most of the denominations internationally.

    The dialectic home group studies (centered around books rather than the Bible) that have infiltrated most denominations and all the CCs is from Purpose Driven. But it was adopted from philosophies of Roussou that caused the French Revolution that the Marxists also adopted. So basically the globalists used Warren ( a member of the globalist CFR according to his own admission to World Net Daily News) to infiltrate the churches with the UNESCO globalist criteria to cause peer pressure for a one world religion through the dialectic method that is now going into the US public schools through the Common Core Curriculum along with Islamic indoctrination. This is to open us all to the acceptance of a one world government which is a fulfillment of prophecy.

    Chuck, by not opposing Warren infiltrating CCs was mistaken. Yes I was disappointed in him too because I loved Chuck and my CC pastor when I had to forsake CCs because of its adoption of the dialogue method of group think book studies in their home groups.

    CC of today is very unlike the CC we knew in the 70s and 80s. Not the same at all.

  314. “Rick Warren wrote in his Purpose Driven Church book for pastors that, in order to make the church purpose driven, for church growth purposes, the pastor had to ignore any questions or opposition from any of the hard core church members (even if they built the building themselves with their very own hands) because even if the pastor lost hundreds of formerly loyal church members in the process of becoming purpose driven they would gain many more (most likely unbelievers) in their quest for changing the church for the 21st century. ”

    Can you give me the page number for that from the book? I admit it’s been more than 10 years since I read it, but I don’t remember that quote.

  315. Debra said, “I would like to see each one of you unsaved people come to be saved and be part of the biblical Christian family.”

    Again, how do you know? How can you guarantee you are “saved” and others aren’t?

    Can you articulate for me specifically what it takes to be officially saved in your opinion?

  316. It’s not in the purpose driven book for church members. It is in the Purpose Driven Church book he wrote for pastors to learn how to become purpose driven churches. And Rick Warren admitted he is a member of the globalist bank cartel controlled Council on Foreign Relations.

    Why not instead, compare what Warren wrote to what the Bible says and the early church did. The guy takes the word completely out of context page for page and hacks up church history and turns it into something it was not.

    Nowhere in the BIble does it say to let the youth run the church nor has that occured in all of church history. The apostles taught that the older men and women would teach the younger and the elders and church leaders would lead the church Nowhere does it say in the epistles to let everyone in a group teach their views on a given passage of a book rather than the Scripture. Paul taught that the church had pastors, teachers, for teaching, gifted by the Holy Spirit. Paul Warned not to collect many teachers but said that would happen when people wanted to seek false teachings to satisfy their itching ears.

    Yet Warren teaches to have a group centered around a book with all the group dialogue-ing about the book and coming to a collective conclusion based on peer pressure. Where in the early church did the apostles teach that kind of structure or gifting in the church? Nowhere.

    Wake up people. This was all part of a globalist conspiracy of the world bankers cartel that our leaders are cowtowing to. It did not just start recently either. The gov has infiltrated the church little by little ever since the 1940s, through out seminaries and our pastor conferences using special materials supplied.

    Chuck’s cozy friendship with Warren and refusing to renounce his teachings harder is questionable at best.

  317. Alex, believe on Jesus for salvation. Call on Him in truth, to save your soul.

    John 3

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

  318. Debra, I believe in Jesus.

    My Mormon/LDS friends believe in Jesus as well.

    We’re saved! Woohoo!

    Thanks.

  319. I wonder about the individuals assuming people are not saved on this blog.

    See that is another weakness of CCs, the assumption that because someone does or does not do something makes them saved or unsaved.

    The Scripture says that many would come to Jesus in that day and say “Lord, Lord” did we not do this or that in His name. And Jesus would say to get away from Him because He did not even know them. According to the Scripture salvation is based on what Christ did on our behalf and whether we knew Jesus and who He is. Yet people on here are assuming because someone commented critically on a blog toward Chuck Smith or CC they must be unsaved.

    That seems a bit ignorant of Scripture or salvation and extremely judgmental when the Bible says not to ask who would or would not go to heaven or down to the pit.

  320. And, Muff, one more thing:

    Clearly you know hell is real, and at this time you don’t want to go there. So clearly you know God is real. But you are currently choosing to reject Him, by rejecting Jesus Christ, who is God. –Father, Son, Holy Ghost, one God.

    With that said, Muff, you need to ask yourself something. Why do you reject Jesus Christ, knowing hell is real, fearing hell at this time in your life?

    Muff, I am just stating the Scriptural facts. And that is that if you keep going the way you are going, eventually you won’t even have the fear of hell. And if you die having never received Christ as your Savior, hence rejecting Him till death, you will be so hardened, that you will choose hell over heaven even when in hell. It will be YOU who wants YOU to be in hell and God will simply cast you there, a place where you chose to end up.

    The time to chose not to end up in hell and instead to chose life in Jesus Christ, is now. You keep going as you are going and never receive Him as your Lord God and Risen Savior, you will come to the day you will be too hardened to do so. And it will be all your doing; nobody else will be at fault but you.

    Hell is a decisions of YOUR making, Muff. Think about it. YOU are currently at least to some degree okay with ending up there (this should scare the tar out of you, that you are even to this degree of hardness). Muff, you have already began the process of hardening.

    Have you ever watched Pinocchio? The naughty boys wanted to do all those sinful things, so they went off with that bad man. And they ended up turning into donkeys. While they were turning into donkeys, the boys screamed and cried, but only Pinocchio got out of there and did what he had to do to stop the process.

    Muff, you are screaming and crying, but will you do what is needed to stop the process of becoming such a hardened soul that the day will come that you are so hardened you will be okay with ending up in hell?

    Today is the day, Muff. You don’t know when the day will come that you will be so hardened that you are incapable of turning to Jesus Christ for Salvation.

  321. Alex,

    You are being silly now. Even you know that Mormons are believing on a different Jesus, a Jesus of their own making, not the biblical Jesus Christ.

  322. Alex, I hope you will read that last comment that I posted to Muff. It applies to you too.

    I am signing off of the internet for the afternoon. Hope you have a blessed day with your family, Alex.

    Debra…

  323. Debra do you agree or disagree with the following about Jesus:

    Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father.

    Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.

    In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.

    “As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

    “He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made’ (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He ‘went about doing good’ (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

    “He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

    “We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

    ‘His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

    “ ‘I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father’

    “Of Him the Prophet also declared: ‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

    “ ‘For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

    “ ‘That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God’

    “We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—‘built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone’ (Ephesians 2:20).

    “We testify that He will someday return to earth. ‘And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together’ (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

    “We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son”

    Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. (John 1:14, 18)

    Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world. (Isaiah 49:26)

    Jesus Christ is our Mediator and Advocate with the Father. (1 Timothy 2:5)

  324. Debra, is there anything in the above post about Jesus that you disagree with? Why or why not?

  325. […] about the timing of the post I published from Alex Grenier, a Calvary Chapel abuse survivor.  Alex posted his article on the day – within hours  - of Chuck Smith’s death and when I read it, I asked […]

  326. I just finished a few other things online and need to sign off, but I will come back and read the full post that you just posted. However, I did read the very beginning of it and found something wrong with that first paragraph.

    Quote from your post: “Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father.” –This incorrect in that these people (Mormons) believe they will “return” to live with who they call their “heavenly father.” By the way, their “heavenly father” is Adam, as in Adam and Eve. They believe that Adam is their spiritual father that came here to start this world. They believe that they are all his spiritual children who were with Adam before this life on earth. This is why they believe they will “return” to live with him again.

    Signing off for the afternoon and will return later to read the rest.

  327. Oh, and again, their “Jesus Christ” is not the biblical Jesus Christ. There “Jesus Christ” is the brother of Lucifer, yes Satan. –Of course there is no such person. But that is who they claim to be their “savior,” the brother of Satan.

    be back later….
    Debra…

  328. Debra: You seem to have it all figured out for you and for everyone else. You’ve put yourself in a very lofty position.

  329. Debra, I don’t read that anywhere in the description of Jesus I posted. Where did you get that from?

  330. Debra said, “This incorrect in that these people (Mormons) believe they will “return” to live with who they call their “heavenly father.” By the way, their “heavenly father” is Adam, as in Adam and Eve. They believe that Adam is their spiritual father that came here to start this world. They believe that they are all his spiritual children who were with Adam before this life on earth. This is why they believe they will “return” to live with him again”

    Again, that’s not anywhere in what I posted. You are pulling that out of thin air.

    Do you agree or disagree with exactly what I posted?

  331. Debra, all that stuff you brought up is not in my post, and if it was it has nothing to do with your assertion regarding “the wrong Jesus”.

    Many denominations have differing views over non-essentials. For instance, Lutherans baptize babies and believe it saves them…do they have the “wrong Jesus” since you (I assume) disagree with that biblical interpretation?

    Charismatics believe you must have a “sign gift” to validate that you are truly born of the Spirit or you aren’t really saved…do they have “the wrong Jesus”?

    Calvinists believe that Jesus only died for the sins of the Elect…do they have “the wrong Jesus”?

    Trinitarians can’t logically articulate their position that God is three in one…none of the arguments remotely make sense from a logical perspective and so Trinitarians appeal to “mystery”….how are you sure that Trinitarians have “the correct Jesus”?

  332. Debra, your version of Salvation* seems to be quite contingent on a “correct understanding” of a “correct Jesus’…which is a discussion I’ve had many times. It’s full of fallacy and illogic…and if we continue the discussion…that will become evident.

  333. Debra, question, since you are hung up on “correct understanding” of the “correct Jesus”…which really means every bit of doctrine and interpretation you say is the correct Jesus…

    …Do the Jews have the “correct God”?

    I’m assuming you believe the God of the hebrews is the “correct God”…no?

    If so, do the Jews have a correct belief about Jesus? If Jesus is equally God…and if Jesus is supposedly the “God” that appears in the Old Testament who Moses “saw his hinder parts” and Jacob “saw face to face” and God “walked” in the Garden with Adam and Eve….how do the Jews have the “correct God” if they don’t have a “correct understanding” about Jesus?

    The Standard you asserted regarding Mormons applied equally to the Hebrew belief in “God” would disqualify the Hebrew “God” from being the “correct God”.

  334. The fact is the Mormons believe in the same Jesus and God that is the God of “Jacob, Abraham and Isaac”…they just have a different set of doctrines and interpretations appealing to the same bible as yours.

    They add a lot of stuff in, just like all the other 9,000 to 30,000 Christian* denominations out there.

  335. “It’s not in the purpose driven book for church members. It is in the Purpose Driven Church book he wrote for pastors to learn how to become purpose driven churches.”

    OK, I’ll bite. What is the name of the book and page number?

  336. Alex,

    I quoted right from the first paragraph of what you posted to me, the post that you asked me if I see anything wrong with. As for what I said about it, these things I know about Mormonism because I have studied what Mormons believe, and I have even interviewed a woman is a former Mormon bishop’s daughter and Mormon wife: http://www.debrajmsmith.com/TriciaEricksonInterview.html

    As for your post where you say that I am “hung up on “correct understanding” of the “correct Jesus…” Yes, the correct understanding of the correct Jesus is necessary. You are a married man. Yes? Yes. I am sure that it matters greatly to your wife that you know exactly who she is, that you do not just go off with and be a husband to just any woman out there. Well, it matters to God, that we know who He is, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, one God. Your wife would not say, “Alex is my husband because he is a husband to ‘some’ other woman out there, not me, but that’s cool with me.” –God is not going to go for that either.

  337. Alex: Have you been hiding your background from Debra? Does she know you graduated from Master’s College and that you have her gig down? LOL

  338. Here are the direct quotes from Warren and the books he endorses that promote the touch not God’s annointed attitude of leadership that refuses to take criticism.

    “Third, never criticize what God is blessing, even though it may be a style of ministry that makes you feel uncomfortable.”

    “God blesses churches that are unified. At Saddleback Church, every member signs a covenant that includes a promise to protect the unity of our fellowship. As a result, the church has never had a conflict that split the fellowship

    The Purpose Driven Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1995),

    Notice that what “God is blessing” is subjective and basically has to be what the leaders want rather than the resisters to the program or those criticizing. Members are required to sign a pledge saying they will submit and “protect the unity,” code speak for sit down and shut up.

    “This is a book you ought to read before you change anything,” said Rick Warren in his hearty endorsement of the book on a Total Quality Management model that teaches ways to curb resistance and popular church management, called
    Leading Congregational Change (LCC), promoted by Bob Buford’s Leadership Network.
    The Total Quality Management [TQM] program Warren endorses is based upon the Hegelian dialectic, invented by Georg Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel, a transformational Marxist social psychologist.

    The book Warren endorses says that “Change leaders should expect resistance to team learning. … Recognizing and making this resistance explicit to other team members tends to lessen its grip. It takes time for a group to emerge as a team, and all the concerns and resistance related to teams will resurface during this period.”

    James H. Furr, Mike Bonem and Jim Herrington, Leading Congregational Change (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2000). Authored by James H. Furr, Mike Bonem, and Jim Herrington in 2000, it was published by Jossey-Bass, the main publisher for the Peter Drucker Foundation (now called Leader to Leader) and the “Christian” Leadership Network founded by Bob Buford.

    Notice that making the resistance explicit to the other team members is important? In the church that sort of thing would be code speak for pulpit bullying the “resister” or group shunning them, both of which CCs are notorious for.

  339. Debra said, “Yes, the correct understanding of the correct Jesus is necessary. You are a married man. Yes? Yes. I am sure that it matters greatly to your wife that you know exactly who she is, that you do not just go off with and be a husband to just any woman out there. Well, it matters to God, that we know who He is, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, one God. Your wife would not say, “Alex is my husband because he is a husband to ‘some’ other woman out there, not me, but that’s cool with me.” –God is not going to go for that either.”

    False analogy.

    Your error is that for your position to be sound there has to be one Universal set of “correct interpretations” of every last thing Jesus and God is that is Absolute and known to us.

    The fact there are 9,000 to 30,000 Christian* denominations illustrates the fact that there is no Universal set of Absolutes that we can know in our finite human minds based off ancient texts which by nature require subjective interpretation.

    Every one of the many many many Groups have a greatly different, moderately different or slightly different view of who “the correct Jesus” and “correct God” really is.

    There is some scant agreement on some issues, but much disagreement on a variety of other issues connected to God and Jesus. This is a by-product of being human and a by-product of our inability to know for sure exactly what is “correct” with regards to everything you would claim is “correct” about God and Jesus.

    Your views of God and Jesus will differ from many of the other 9,000 to 30,000 Christian* denominations. Even within your own Sect you will have some disagreements about what you personally believe about God and Jesus. For example, you may believe in Double-Predestination, that God chooses some to be Elect and saved and the vast majority of the rest of humanity to be objects of his wrath and eternally damned to hell in torture. This would be a “different God” and “different Jesus” from the vast majority of others under the Christian* umbrella.

    There are other more subtle differences, but even one variation, according your Position and following your rationale and logic, would mean that anyone who disagrees with your definition of the “correct Jesus” and “correct God” is off the reservation and isn’t saved…and that is just nonsense.

    The fact remains, we know very very little about Absolutes. We have a very limited ability to know or understand who God is and who Jesus is. All the sects of Christianity appeal to words on pages of a book that is a collection of ancient writings that have a variety of different versions KJV, NKJV, ESV, NLT, NIT, etc etc etc. And, there is even disagreement as to correct biblical Canon, though most accept as “the bible” the western protestant canon.

    From whatever version of biblical canon you appeal to, from whatever version/translation of the bible you use and accept as “the most correct” compared to the other translations…you then have to interpret that particular text and run it through some sort of Hermeneutic (or Interpretive Process). Depending on which Hermeneutic you choose and depending on the Consensus of your particular Sect’s Gurus and Pastors and Theologians…you begin to construct your own “correct God” and “correct Jesus”…and your God and your Jesus will differ greatly, moderately or slightly from the other versions of “correct God” and “correct Jesus” underneath the 9,000 to 30,000 Christian* flavors in history.

    So, I ask you, if your take is truth….can you clearly define for me everything that is essential to “believe” to make sure I am believing in the “correct God” and “correct Jesus”?

    What will happen (from experience in these types of discussions) is you will have a set of what you consider “essentials” to believe about God and Jesus…and it will differ from other Christians* and you will paint yourself in a pretty narrow box.

    What will also be demonstrated is that your box will have many contradictions and holes in it and your so-called definition of the “correct God” and “correct Jesus” will be contradicted by a bunch of Scripture that speaks to other equally valid but contradictory and paradoxical views of “correct God” and “correct Jesus”.

    It’s the nature of what we call “the bible”. It is fully of competing narratives which leads to all the different God’s and Jesus’s we have underneath not only the more orthodox Christian* umbrella but also seen in Christian Groups like the LDS/Mormons etc.

  340. Debra, here’s how this always plays out:

    You’ll present some definitions of your “correct God” and “correct Jesus”.

    I’ll bring up a bunch of bible verses that seem to contradict and/or compete with that particular definition.

    You will then claim “mystery” and “well we just have to have child like faith”…which brings us back to the Position I have which is: We really don’t know for sure when trying to thoroughly define the “correct God” and “correct Jesus”.

    It’s a common trap many Fundamentalists fall into and when scrutinized with a Critical Thinking and Logical Hermeneutic, it just doesn’t hold up.

  341. Alex,

    I believe that it is time that I move on from here. You have been told the truth, the true Gospel, of the true Jesus Christ, yet you choose to ignore the truth, and instead to carry on in your pernicious ways, speaking evil of the truth. Perhaps THIS is why Pastor Chuck Smith did not help you.

    Perhaps Chuck Smith viewed your stepfather as a Christian man who messed up and crossed the line from disciplining his four sons to abusing them, but he still saw your stepfather as a Christian. Christians mess up too. Paul (in scripture) said he did what he didn’t want to do and didn’t do what he wanted to do. You have head-knowledge of scripture and have surely read about Paul. Though you cannot truly receive the things of the Lord, you can grasp enough to know that Paul made it clear that Christians still mess up.

    So perhaps Chuck Smith viewed your stepfather as a saved sinner, while viewing you as exactly what you have made clear that you are, a person who openly rejects the true Jesus Christ. Who is worse, the one viewed as a Christian who went overboard disciplining his sons, or the one who openly rejects Jesus Christ who speaks evil of the “way of truth?” I would say it is the latter, Alex. I would say it is you.

    You are a false teacher, Alex, bringing damnable heresies. Through covetousness, with feigned words you make merchandise of Christians, treating Christians like “things” that you desire to manipulate away from Jesus Christ. But you will not succeed in pulling true Christians away, as the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations.

    So perhaps THIS is how Chuck Smith viewed you, Alex. And perhaps he felt that to defend you against your stepfather would be defending the wicked and condemning the just in Christ. Again, Alex, who is the worse one between you and your stepfather? You desire to lead souls down the path that leads to them eternal damnation. Who is the worse abusive one, Alex?

    Don’t get me wrong, Alex. I have no idea if your stepfather is a real Christian. But I am pretty sure that if Chuck Smith did not ask him to step down, that Chuck Smith viewed him as a Christian. And it is Chuck Smith who you went after for not helping you. And just because I would have asked your stepfather to step down, even if I did view him as a real Christian, such does not mean that Chuck Smith felt right in doing so. But then again, I would not have done so in defense of you, once I knew even as much as I know about you just from this blog thread. I would have asked him to step down because he clearly should not be in a place of leadership, for not knowing how to head up his own family. But perhaps, Chuck Smith did not think about it this way.

    Nonetheless, Alex, I more than gave you the benefit of the doubt on this thread. I more than tried to help you with good advice and the solid Gospel of the true Jesus Christ. And for a while you played it cool, when you thought you might have a someone to easily mess with. But once you saw that I was not wet-behind-the-ears, you really showed your whole hand, and now I see that at this stage of your life, you are not a victim. You have become the abusive one, seeking to destroy souls. You have hung that condemnation sign around your neck, and you want to take as many others with you as you can, down that path of self-destruction. And no, Alex, your stepfather did not cause this. You did.

    You are not the first and you won’t be the last adult that comes from an abusive childhood. NOT everyone who comes from an abusive childhood turns out like you, Alex. I know this for a fact. YOU choose to be as you are. And NO one made you this way, but you. You like where you are. You embrace where you are. And you want others to be where you are, even though you know the end of where you are is damnation in hell.

    If your stepfather IS a true Christian who just messed up in the fathering department of his life, Alex, he will be in heaven some day. This is what probably makes more angry than anything else. Funny, you hate that anyone speaks of hell and you ending up there, but you are angry as all get out at just the thought of your stepfather not ending up there.

    Take a look at yourself, Alex. Seriously, take a long hard look at yourself.

    I am signing off of this thread. I wash my hands of this. Oh, I still wish for you that will come to be saved. And I have prayed for you. And I God will bless you and your little family and keep you all well until if and when you all come to be saved. But fact is, you might not ever come to be saved. So my prayer might be more for your children and wife, than for you. But, only God knows if you will turn from your wicked ways and ever call on Jesus Christ in truth. But I must move on here.

    Debra…

  342. Debra, that is another common response. You can’t defend your Position when scrutinized so you resort to name-calling and cast me into hell, LOL.

    I’ve been to this Rodeo before. You have no power, just a poorly formed opinion…which is very common in your Circle.

  343. Debra said, “Take a look at yourself, Alex. Seriously, take a long hard look at yourself.”

    I have, many times…and I observe humanity and the varying representatives of particular Christian sects…and I study the bible, doctrine, theology etc…and I filter all I continue to observe through a Logical Hermeneutic and it drives me to the Conclusions I have.

    My faith in a God who is unknowable in any Absolute detail with our finite minds and very limited knowledge is much greater than my faith in man’s (your) opinion about the mysteries of God and the Universe based on your particular sect’s narrow interpretation of your particular accepted translation of your particular bible canon.

  344. Debra said, “Funny, you hate that anyone speaks of hell and you ending up there, but you are angry as all get out at just the thought of your stepfather not ending up there.”

    That is not at all true.

    I sincerely hope and believe that Chuck Smith and Bob and my mom will be reconciled by a perfect and loving and good God despite any sin and wrongdoing they’ve done and will do.

    I also hope and believe that God is truly good and truly love and truly “loves his enemies” as part of the biblical narrative states…and as such will redeem and reconcile the whole of his creation….even really bad guys like Charles Manson.

    That doesn’t at all make me angry, it makes me love and admire a good and loving God.

    I find Fundamentalists to be some of the most angry and hateful folks on the planet…though not nearly as bad as the muslim fundamentalists.

  345. Debra’s Fear-based “believe in my correct version of God and Jesus or you’re going to hell” is the typical Fundamentalist Evangelical mindset.

    It’s a False Gospel. Run from it.

    Debra won’t be damned for it, anymore than any of the rest of us who think we have it all figured out…and don’t….but her Position is not the Gospel.

  346. I just wanted to let you know, Alex, that I did come back to read your response. The one thing I do not desire to do is a hit-and-run. And all I can say to your response is “which god, Alex?”

    I believe we are at a draw.

    Debra…

  347. Thanks, Debra, for the opportunity to contrast your views with a more Critical Thinking perspective. It helps expose some of the flaws in the Fundamentalist position. This convo will be the subject of a future article.

  348. Interesting, Alex. On this we somewhat agree, in that I feel it exposes people with your position, which is fully flawed. And I too plan on it being the subject of a future article.

    Finally, we somewhat agree on something.

    :)

    That’s cool,
    Debra…

  349. I went through what I could concerning the dispensational view of the “end times” that some hold to, a recently departed kindred soul, though he would have denied my entrance into the kingdom, held. Pretrip Rapture doctrine is not historic, biblical (given historic christian belief), or even makes sense. It is clear that the first believers, including the apostles felt Christ was coming back in their life time. The few verses that deny this are a rear guard action, something orthodoxy often fights, and to date, always lost. When you read the second and third century church fathers you get several views of the end times, then you begin to get the entrenched position that emerged as the dominate view a sort of preterism. But end time rhetoric is a big selling point in the apologetic in the new world new Jerusalem soil of American. The fact that it is a selling point always justifies its use, that is holy ground, selling points that is.

    One thing I have come away with, it is a business, always has been a business and always will be. I mean how many lies, yes lies have been told to make the case. If I was God I would be embarrassed. The nonsense that passes for actual reality is deafening.

  350. I will now add Chuck Smith Sr. to my list of people I knew who truly believed they would never experience death because we were in the ‘end times’ and the rapture would come before their death. People will just push it out of their minds though and continue on—.
    Chuck is being given credit for starting the Jesus movement. So false – without Lonnie Frisbee back then it would never have happened at CCCM. I know because I was there.
    Debra sounds like someone whose been ‘brainwashed’.
    Losing a loved one is hard and my heart goes out to the Smith family.

  351. http://youtu.be/0XR3FPmJmqM

    Just an aside, this lady had an impact on the CC movement but any practical view we understand she is crazier than a hoot owl. Trust me she is and that can be documented a bazillion times over. I get she had an economic interest in these events and it was tied to the bottom line, and that is holy ground. But this woman is unhinged and just watching this video is proof of that, dont believe me go listen to the other many psychotic rantings from her. I agree she was a tool but she was not very balanced. This is what built the “Jesus movement” and it was lucrative and that alone justifies its use. Trust me it does, economics always enters into this type of stuff and it should. Cash is king and winner takes all. I dont find that in the bible but I am sure I am wrong.

    No matter what this poor women is dealing with massive mental illness and it is sad that she was leveraged to support some pathetic apologetic. Shame on them for using her. Offered for what little it is worth.

  352. Okay… I’m back for a quick comment that I feel I need to make on the topic of your stepfather, Alex.

    After signing off of this thread, I found a spot on this website of yours that has the court complaint filed against you by your stepfather and mother. I had not realized that you had accused your stepfather of child-molestation and of stealing from the church money. I thought (and I believe Pastor Chuck was speaking of in the above audio on this page) that you were speaking of discipline that went too far, into abuse and no other abuse.

    Though I have no reason to not believe you that your stepfather crossed the line into discipline abuse, I do have reason to NOT believe your claim against your stepfather of child-molestation and of stealing from the church money. –I have NO doubt that if Pastor Chuck Smith had any proof at all of these two claims against your stepfather, that he would have absolutely have demanded your stepfather step down from being a Calvary Chapel minister. There is a huge difference between leaving bruises during disciplining and child-molestation or stealing from church money. Had Pastor Chuck believed these two things were going on, he would not have spoken in the way he spoke about you having been abused by your stepfather, while not doing something about it.

    And while reading the actual complaint against you, submitted to the court, I see that your stepfather did apologize to you for any perceived poor parenting, but that it was not good enough for you. You appear to have gone ego crazy wanting more from him. And then when he would not do anything more in your demands, you then went on an all out against him on the internet and added to your accusations, child molestation and stealing from the church money. I find this to appear that you added to your story against him, because the true story was not bad enough.

    The complaint against you in the lawsuit is over your public accusations of child molestation and stealing church money. I find this very interesting, because I had been under the impression from things you wrote online that I had read in the last 24 hours, that you were being sued over speaking on the discipline abuse, which is not the case. I had not gotten the impression at all that there was more to the lawsuit. Now I see there is a lot more to it. It is not just a case of free speech. It is a case of you accusing him illegal activity (sexual perversion and stealing.)

    Though I agree it could be just as hard for your stepfather to prove that he did not molest any child(ren), as it is for you to prove he did, NOT stealing church money can be proven by your stepfather. And I don’t believe a person would bring attention to such a claim by his stepson, by taking him to court, if the person (your stepfather) could not PROVE that he never stole any church money. So this tells me that he did NOT steal church money. And it tells me if you would make up the story of him stealing church money, that you could have also made up the story of child molestation. And, Alex, I believe that a judge and a jury would see it the same way I see it, once your stepfather proved with past church financial books and church treasurers, etc., that he never stole church money.

    Alex, you stand to lose everything if this case goes to court. A court is not going to stand by you, just because you appeared to have a stepfather that at times turned into a daddy-dearest and crossed the line in disciplining you. Crossing the line in disciplining you does not give YOU the right to falsely accuse him of child molestation and stealing church money. You cannot legally do such a thing to a person, Alex, even to a person who may have abused you when it came to disciplining you.

    You need to really think this through, Alex. I am only half way through reading that online document of the suit brought against you, and I already believe him over you on what the lawsuit is actually about, your public accusations of child molestation and stealing.

    You do not have the right to add to your story with false accusations. Again, I cannot stress this enough, that I REALLY don’t believe your stepfather would take you to court over these two issues, if he could not prove he never stole church money. Think about it, Alex. You are going to lose big time.

    That your stepfather’s suit against you has nothing to do with your accusations of discipline abuse, spankings that went too far, tells me that he does not appear to be denying that he may have gone too far at times while disciplining you. And he does admit to having said sorry to you, which also shows he does not deny having gone too far. This shows me that he is not hiding what he may have done wrong, which gives him even more credibility on the other two issues.

    Alex, you really need to rethink this smear campaign and seriously think about getting all of this stuff against your stepfather off line, because it appears that YOU have crossed a legal line and really could lose everything. And it also appears that between you and your stepfather, YOU are now the abusive one, being abusive against him, by adding to your story and trying to emotionally harm him in retaliation for having a hard childhood.

    I no longer feel bad for you about this lawsuit. I now feel that you brought it on yourself.

    Okay, I just had to say that.

    I’m signing off of this thread again,
    Debra…

  353. Oh, and now I see why you tried to get the case thrown out on grounds that your stepfather is a public figure. People can often get away with embellishing on the truth, when the person they are speaking of is a public figure. This further tells me that you added falsehoods to your story against your stepfather. –And the problem with your claim of him being a public figure, I would say, is that he is not just a public figure to you.

    Okay, I’m done here now.
    Debra…

  354. Who are you Debra to come on this sight and act like you are an ‘expert’ in Alex’s case? You are typical of all those who ‘slam’ Alex and defend Pastor Chuck, etc. from CC no matter what, because you want to believe what you want to believe. Pastor Chuck said he ‘believed’ Alex and his brothers, but then would not do anything about it, probably because he was friends big time with Bob G.

  355. You’ve shown your hand also you stupid heartless harpy. You ugly person with no heart.

    You’ve signed off. Please never come back.

  356. “Interesting, Alex. On this we somewhat agree, in that I feel it exposes people with your position, which is fully flawed. And I too plan on it being the subject of a future article. ”

    Don’t flatter yourself. G’byeee..

  357. Om the other BLOG someone named Juniper wrote:

    “One of the key person who was installed personally by Chuck. To oversee and lowered the boom on the cc’s when needed was Oden Fong. He went after Set Free with cccm resources to try and bring thrm to ruin. But when it came to cc internal abuses, Oden covered things up. Odens own ministry at cccm,poiema with its abuses and coverups is never discussed. Oh well, I guess as time goes on, memories fade, and the present problems in the world, I guess work in favor or forgetting about the past ministry abuses, perhaps for the exception of those who are still stuck and wounded.”

    I can’t remember, Alex. Did you ever write on this subject?

  358. Debra:

    Why do you keep saying you are done here and then keep coming back?

    Alex is correct about his dad being a public figure. My former pastor who only had a congregation of 100 was considered public because of his online presence (he filed a defamation lawsuit against me and lost).

    Your ignorance on Alex’s case is astounding. Your false “love” of caring for Alex’s soul makes me shake my head because everybody here can see how you are behaving like a bully, presuming to know the condition of his soul, telling him your way is the right way – - just like a bully. Thankfully you are an ultra fundy woman who most likely believes that women can’t preach because if you were a dude and in the pulpit, I think your name would be listed in the categories of my sidebar as being a spiritual tyrant.

  359. Debra, you have obviously not read the readily available information on the sidebar of this site. You are expressing information about the case and the situation that is incorrect.

  360. My proposal is that if someone gives a repeated swan song that we bid them goodbye and add them to the ban list :)

  361. What a bitch wrote @ # 361:

    You’ve shown your hand also you stupid heartless harpy.

    Harpy. Now there’s a pejorative I haven’t heard in years. I can just imagine what her husband is forced to endure. As the old saying goes…If the shoe fits…

    Either way, in my experience any sort of fundamentalism, whether religious or secular, will strip you of your humanity.

  362. Doug said, “My proposal is that if someone gives a repeated swan song that we bid them goodbye and add them to the ban list”

    LOL, I would feel like such a hypocrite if I did :-) :lol:

    Plus, she’s a great example of the type of Fundamentalism that I think should be highlighted and challenged.

  363. That woman’s 358 is so wretched factually, logically, and morally. Unbelievable that she would crap on someone’s history of being abused as a child and all-knowingly declare it over-punishing, just a few times. Did you not see the excerpt detailing the molestation posted above?! Chuck most certainly knew of these accusations; why do you think everyone’s so upset? Oh, but I forgot, Chuck didn’t have to remove him bc Debra told him Alex is a worse sinner.

  364. Muff said, “Either way, in my experience any sort of fundamentalism, whether religious or secular, will strip you of your humanity.”

    Unfortunately true in many cases I’ve seen and experienced over the years.

  365. Plus, she’s a great example of the type of Fundamentalism that I think should be highlighted and challenged.

    Agreed Alex. But even if you were to invite her back for a friendly weenie roast so to speak, it’s doubtful she would accept. When the inescapable contradictions, the red herrings, and false dichotomies cannot be dismissed without circular reasoning, special pleading, and appeals to mystery and sovereign prerogative, the kitchen invariably gets too hot for them and they split anyway knowing full well that the jig is up.

  366. Read Debra’s bio on her site. She is really full of herself. The only thing that could make that narcissistic bio funnier would be if she started referring to herself in the third person. “Debra is highly educated and couldn’t be a better wife to Debra’s husband.”

    She’s a nut.

  367. Muff, yuppers.

    Not Alone, LOL, I haven’t read the bio or her site. I’ll have to check it out now after your review.

  368. I think she needs to add more pictures of herself. Maybe a show a statue her husband had commissioned for her 50th birthday.

    I’d like to see Tina take her out in the ring. Would that be fun to watch :)

  369. NA, LOL!

  370. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
    Philippians 1:21

  371. http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/69697200/Chuck%20Smith%20RIP

    Interesting thing to note. I took that snapshot of the CCCM webpage. Note the bottom right corner. “Topical”…

  372. lol… As I said, I don’t like to hit and run, so I came to read your response, Alex. And I am sure glad I did see what Taylor (user name “Not Alone” said.) My site does not say what he claimed it said. This says that if he would lie about me, he would lie about your stepfather. My “about” page on my site, is right there on my site for anyone to see. And anyone can see that what he said, is simply not there. lol…

    As for what Sue said: Alex, you are who puts all of this stuff online, I am sure you don’t expect that no one will ever come and disagree with you and give you an opinion that you don’t like. You seem to embrace disagreement to some degree.

    As for your comment of me needing to read the things linked to on the side of your pages: That is where I found the information of the lawsuit and what your stepfather said against you in his suit against you. Everything that I have read so far has come right from your website.

    Your stepfather is also correct in his claim against you, that if anyone sides with him, you and your “friends” go after that person. But guess what, Alex. I have been online for many years and am very used people like you and your friends. I lose no sleep over this and am actually a bit intrigued with people like you, hence part of the reason I find it easy to come back, after I sign off of this thread, to give you your chance to have your response to me be read. In other words, Alex, you and your friends do not effect me in a negative way, with silly words and “bitch” names. lol… Fit-pitching simply does not effect me.

    Please don’t get me wrong in all of this, Alex, as I care about you and your little family. And I really do wish you and your wife and children well and hope you all come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. And I hope that the watering that I did here on this blog will assist in this. However, only God knows.

    But, Alex, you really do need to take a long hard look at yourself. You are the hater, hating on your stepfather and not forgiving him, after he said sorry to you. Then you appear to have added to your story, to make it sound worse than it was, making false allegations of child molestation and false allegations of stealing from church money, just to cause him harm. That is hate, Alex. What you are doing is hate. You claim that you want a god that allows everyone in heaven, even people who reject the real Jesus Christ in this life. You want even the rejection of Jesus Christ to be forgiven of people after death, when YOU cannot even forgive a man who said “sorry.”

    I do still see something decent in you, Alex, even in all of this. I don’t believe you are completely hardened at this time. You DO know how to have a civil exchange, which says A LOT to me about you. I do NOT view you as a monster at this time. And as I have said, I really do wish for you that your little family come to be saved in Jesus Christ. And I also wish for you to one day be reconciled with the family you came out from.

    Debra…
    PS: As you know I am trying to sign off of this thread, but coming back to read your response. At some point I will just not respond to your response and fully sign off of the thread (perhaps it will be this time). But please know that I would have read your response. I have no desire to frustrate you with the thought that I hit-and-ran and did not hear you out.

  373. “Chuck is being given credit for starting the Jesus movement. So false – without Lonnie Frisbee back then it would never have happened at CCCM. I know because I was there.”

    That raises the question. If Chuck Smith was a part of a real church where there was accountability would he have been allowed to pick someone who was a homosexual to be his youth pastor or would the process have weeded out Lonnie? Then would all of those things have happened?

  374. “As for what Sue said: Alex, you are who puts all of this stuff online, I am sure you don’t expect that no one will ever come and disagree with you and give you an opinion that you don’t like.”

    The problem isn’t that you disagree with Alex. Most of us probably disagree with him. It’s the attitude you bring and your false conclusions reached without knowledge. Shut up, do your homework, them come back with intelligent questions.

  375. “Please don’t get me wrong in all of this, Alex, as I care about you and your little family. And I really do wish you and your wife and children well and hope you all come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ.”

    Alex, please ban her. I don’t ask it often… But this one is a real piece of work…

  376. From her About Me page “I am a nondenominational born again believer in Christ. The type of church that I go to is a line-upon-line bible teaching church. My family in Christ goes back to Jesus Christ, close to 400 years before the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) came to be.”

    LOL. She’s part of an imaginary church. The one that only exists in the imagination of non-denominationalists. No connection to the real church made of Catholic and Orthodox for the majority of church history.

  377. Sorry Doug, had to zap that one. I made a deal with Michael that I’d zap comments about kid and girlfriend as long as he zapped comments related to my family on his blog. We both agreed to this so we wouldn’t end up in blog wars of that sort. I have very few restrictions on here, but that’s a deal I made and I plan on sticking to it.

  378. You’re free to call him whatever you want and critique him as you see fit (as is done to me there).

  379. Can I call him a freeloader? He likes Obamacare because someone else will be paying part of his premium.

  380. So even his ex-gfs are off base?

  381. Debra ”

    And while reading the actual complaint against you, submitted to the court, I see that your stepfather did apologize to you for any perceived poor parenting, but that it was not good enough for you. You appear to have gone ego crazy wanting more from him. And then when he would not do anything more in your demands, you then went on an all out against him on the internet and added to your accusations, child molestation and stealing from the church money. I find this to appear that you added to your story against him, because the true story was not bad enough”

    I don’t think your assessment is accurate. Its up to Alex to refute your claims.

    I ask why you have repeatedly called Alex’s family his “Little family”?
    I detect a condescending tone here.

    You keep insisting that Alex needs to be saved and if you believe he is not born again, then by your own assessment(Bordering on mind-reading or clairvoyance) it would be hard if not impossible for him to receive your admonishments, correct?

  382. PS Debra

    Do believe in eternal security?
    Once saved, always saved?

  383. Hi Hannah,

    The term, “Little family” to me is a sweet term that I refer to my own little family as. It simply means my spouse and children of ours.

    And in answer to your question about if I believe in eternal security: Yes. I believe that Jesus said He will never leave me or forsake me. I believe that just as a person cannot be physically unborn, that a person cannot be spiritually unborn. So if a person says he/she was saved and yet no longer believers on the biblical Jesus Christ for salvation, that person was never really saved to begin with. The bible says when a person goes out from among the body of Christ (Christians, worldwide, not just in a building), that person was never one of us.

    Debra…

  384. “So if a person says he/she was saved and yet no longer believers on the biblical Jesus Christ for salvation, that person was never really saved to begin with”

    You don’t believe a person can have a desert experience with the Lord where they can question their faith and then return?

  385. How about Samson?

    I just think it’s dangerous to judge someone’s salvation.
    I used to do it until God disciplined me for it.
    None of us knows what God is dong in another individuals life.

    There are many inside the church who profess Christ and we know from the scriptures “Many will say, Lord, Lord”..

    So what do you go by Debra?
    Someone’s word for it? That alone?
    Some of us have been here for 3+ yrs and have read every word from Alex.
    I am sure we each have our opinions but it is just that.
    We have to be careful playing God.

    If a Mom lost her child and for awhile she curses God, can you give her some leeway to work this out and perhaps come out of it with a stronger faith and trust?
    How much time would you give her?
    Would you call her a false convert?

    That’s my prayer for Alex and anyone else who suffers tribulations and testing of their faith.
    God is sovereign and nothing slides past Him that has not been allowed for our eternal benefit.

  386. Hannah, if the person has really been Spiritually born from above, he/she has truly called on Jesus Christ in truth for salvation and really saved, then that person cannot lose his/her salvation. True believers can have questions, but will not truly and fully walk away from Jesus Christ, because a person who is truly saved cannot fully walk away from Jesus Christ, because He keeps us.

  387. Heart is breaking as I read Debra’s posts. Oh, how I wish I could apologize, hug and take back all my words and ignorance towards so many for when I once thought I had all the answers, too.

  388. “Hannah, if the person has really been Spiritually born from above, he/she has truly called on Jesus Christ in truth for salvation and really saved, then that person cannot lose his/her salvation. True believers can have questions, but will not truly and fully walk away from Jesus Christ, because a person who is truly saved cannot fully walk away from Jesus Christ, because He keeps us.”

    So your a Gnostic Christian?

  389. Doug Gilliland wrote @ # 381:

    Alex, please ban her. I don’t ask it often… But this one is a real piece of work…

    Wouldn’t that be just as intolerant as the selective fundamentalism many of us decry?

  390. brian,

    I was asked a question. I answered it. It is what I truly, 100%, with all of my being believe.

    Debra…

  391. Debra its not a slight it is an observation by what you said. I have alot of respect for Gnostic Christians, many of them believe with all their being to.

  392. Anne what you said is spot on. She’s obviously a narcissist who loves her own words.

    Debra, I never lied about anything in my posts. I was kidding about what you said. It was more of a summary of your bio and how great you think you are. I’ve never seen a bio so long. Maybe you could trim it down bit and remove some of the pics of your celebration of yourself. It’s weird and creepy.

    It’s hard to believe this chick is for real.

  393. “lol… As I said, I don’t like to hit and run, so I came to read your response, Alex. And I am sure glad I did see what Taylor (user name “Not Alone” said.) My site does not say what he claimed it said. This says that if he would lie about me, he would lie about your stepfather. My “about” page on my site, is right there on my site for anyone to see. And anyone can see that what he said, is simply not there. lol…”

    I’m flabbergasted. I think you understand sarcasm about as well compasion or empathy. So let me be clear. Both my post were making fun of you. I was never quoting you or your husband, I wouldn’t waste my time doing that.

    To call me a liar is childish. Your site it rediculous and you are delusional. I’ll go a step further, a true Christian with a Holy Spirit filled heart would not do what you are doing here. Maybe you should make sure you actually understand what Jesus did for you is the same as he did for all. You are nothing special.

  394. NA – you nailed it. The thing with Debra and people like her is that they are so blinded by their behavior it’s almost scary.

    Debra – let me put it plainly – - what you offer as your brand of Christianity would send most people running to the hills and that’s not because “the gospel is foolish to those who are perishing” as you and your ilk would like to proclaim. It’s all about the fruit. The fruit that has been exhibited here by your long-winded diatribes towards Alex and others has been a rotten stench.

  395. JA, she would fit right in with your old pastor. Chip off the same abusive block.

  396. I think your a pathetic excuse for a humanbeing. Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes but come on man, the truth of God is real. There are all the facts of the truth and for you to make the statements about Chuck are slandering. Look bub your making the wrong decision to speak the words coming from your mouth and u need to repent ASAP. Chuck is in heaven, in a joyous place where we are all meant to be. But your defamation will get u nowhere near. U have no idea the power of the Holy Spirit and the kind of forces u are dealing with. Just think twice about what you are saying, and this wicked site u host. Change before it’s to late bub. Good luck

  397. Can’t believe this silly blog is still on. Looks to me, there is Alex, his groupies and a lot of people who read this junk in amusement or disbelieve. Great entertainment, but no work of god obviously. If I compare true ministry defined in gods word to this blog, oh boy!
    Sad to see, that the evil doing of Bob Grenier caused such long term damage. Alex, you are carring on the legacy of your step father. (was it step? i don’t remember). Someone has to break this circle. In Germany we call it “Teufelskreis”.

  398. Hannes,

    Are you sure you want to call this place “devil’s circle”? I lived in Germany when I was kid very long ago. I love its people land and customs, but what you’re suggesting is the same suspicion that Martin Luther had in his hatred of the Jews.

  399. Debra – My comment to you was not in refering to you questioning things here. It was in reference to you coming on here ‘assuming’ you are an ‘expert’ on Alex’s situation, assuming he is not ‘saved’, etc. “Who are you” meant who do you think you are assuming all the things you assume – means you are ‘puffed up’ in your opinion of yourself? You are not ‘watering’ here or probably in your imagination planting ‘seeds’. You are spouting off your delusional fundamentalist viewpoint. You will not see that though until you are ‘ready’ to.

  400. #403 – typical CC threats – God is going to ‘get’ you. Sounds like the ‘touch not God’s annointed’ bs. God is love. He is our father. He cares about our pain. He cares about people who are ‘wronged’. He cares about justice. Alex was wronged. He has spoken out about it. God cares about what happened to him growing up. If you had children, as a father would you not care about their concerns or would you be the type of father who tries to ‘shut them up’ with ‘threats’? Threats may shut your kids up but they will secretly resent and not love you. God listens and cares. There is a place for speaking out against the ‘status quo’ !

  401. Muff said, “Wouldn’t that be just as intolerant as the selective fundamentalism many of us decry?”

    Agreed. And, I think it’s very good and healthy to have detailed discussions about the differences. It tends to provide great real-life contrasts and helps separate truth from error (especially errors of logic etc).

  402. sue, agreed. It’s a toxic mindset and it completely lacks any sort of evidence and support (speaking to the Touch Not God’s Anointed and CC is special garbage).

    The criticism toward CC is valid and good. I’ve gotten warned many times that God will zap me for speaking out…and I’m still here. Someone else got diagnosed with cancer shortly after warning me.

  403. Interesting. A friend messaged me this today…It’s a huge coincidence, but I guarantee you many of the Chuck-ites and CC’ites would have said God zapped me as Chuck warned had this timing been me and not Chuck:

    “Actually I just looked back at your archives. You said this: “Chuck Smith spoke publicly from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit, Sunday Evening, October 2nd.” I’m finding it very thought-provoking (the timing) that October 3rd he died. Maybe he actually died on the 2nd but was pronounced dead on the 3rd? Interesting to me.”

  404. While there has been much discussion and remembrances expressed at the passing of Pastor Chuck, it seems unfair if not downright anti-semitic for Alex to not even recognize the loss of a great rabbi who also recently passed. So in an effort to balance out this egregious oversight:

    (Reuters) – Some 700,000 mourners turned out on Monday for the funeral of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, an Iraqi-born sage who transformed an Israeli underclass of Sephardic Jews of Middle East heritage into a powerful political force.

    Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said that the funeral for Yosef, who died on Monday aged 93, was the biggest ever held in the holy city.

    Streets were engulfed by a sea of black coats and hats as weeping ultra-Orthodox faithful honoured a cleric they deemed their supreme spiritual leader. The van carrying his body was held up for hours as masses blocked the route to the cemetery.

    Dubbed ‘Israel’s Ayatollah’ by critics who condemned many of his pronouncements as racist – he likened Palestinians to snakes and said God put gentiles on earth only to serve Jews – Yosef was revered by many Sephardic Jews.

    I am personally shocked that you anti- fundi’s who are so passionate in your beliefs would fail to give your “due” to this truth seeker. Evidence of this status is obvious from his position on the Palestinians and gentiles.

  405. Sheck, how does Moses make his coffee?

    He brews it :lol:

  406. My wife sez that is a”second grader” joke. How unkind and insensitive while I am in the midst of mourning for Rabbi Joseph. Its been a rough week for us all.

  407. Sue @ 406 “My comment to you was not in refering to you questioning things here. It was in reference to you coming on here ‘assuming’ you are an ‘expert’”

    I would take the advice of someone who has a website named after…themselves, takes cheesy modeling photos of…themselves, has an alternate URL called ‘informing christians’ pointing to…themselves, and talks a lot about (including quoting) themselves…

    With a grain of salt. I can never wade through the ego to see if there is anything of substance underneath it.

  408. Sheck said, “My wife sez that is a”second grader” joke.”

    You’re wife is very discerning. I’d peg much of my stuff as about second grade, and that’s being generous.

    Sheck said, “How unkind and insensitive while I am in the midst of mourning for Rabbi Joseph. Its been a rough week for us all.”

    LOL. I am sorry I hurt your feelings. Can i give you a discount or something and make it better? :-) :lol:

  409. “Chuck is in heaven”

    Prove it,

  410. Sheckstein, you’re a card! I’m probably the only Native American on the planet who loves Gefilte Fish.

  411. ““Chuck is in heaven”

    Chuck’s body is still on this planet and being prepared to be put in the ground.

    This gets into the tall weeds. If you are a Dichotomist, where’d his “soul” go? Where is it right now? It’s not with his body.

    If you are a Trichotomist, “body, spirit and soul”…well then where is the spirit and soul part, we know where the body is….

    …assuming Hades and Abraham’s Bosom got done away with by Jesus.

  412. Bueller, Bueller…..Bueller….

    Anyone?

    I’ve heard some whacky explanations in the past, but I don’t have a good answer.

  413. “Anyone?

    I’ve heard some whacky explanations in the past, but I don’t have a good answer.”

    Alex I have thought on this for many years ever sense I saw a person die, it was when I was six and the kid in the care unit died next to me when I was in the hospital. I will preface this with a disclaimer, usually, no almost always, when I have shared this in the evangelical community there are a few responses. First I am a heretic (which I dont deny), second “I am an apostate” (that depends), third the shove your finger down your throat and puke your gutz out all over the place and the pathetic emotionalism.

    ****tangent alert*****
    Someone else might bring up about how their pet is sick, how God helped them find their car keys, parking spot, how they were persecuted because someone told them to f-off when they were Jesushandling with some obnoxious tracts and everyone would fawn over them with praise the Lord and hang in there sister/brother. I share an insight, well never mind.
    ****end tangent Alert*** In the future if this had been an actual tangent you would have been told where to tune for further information.

    There is something there right before they pass, a spark, a presence, and when they pass its gone. They may be in a drug induced coma but there is still that spark of life, that essence, as Col Chamberlain said in Gettysburg, that “divine spark”. No matter the faith or even the non faith, there is that presence and then when it leaves or passes on there is just what we see. I have seen it several times, maybe its the noise of the ventilator or the beeping of the monitoring devices that makes me anthropomorphize these events. But it is throughout human history, even in the graves of prehistoric humans you get a sense of the “other”.

    Now I have worked with people with developmental disabilities that had that “other” in them, that “divine spark” and when they passed it was not there, they were not there. As we get closer to that moment with science ie monitoring devices, computers, genetics etc we get further away from the point of “The Other”. On the other hand as we try to scientize the bible we move further away on that end as well, as people deny evolution, age of the earth and other noted theories we loose site of the fact. The Bible is not a science book, it is a book about “The Other”, the transcendence and the desire for God. In this sense I agree with Romans one we each seek that transcendence, I disagree with the hacking of Romans into apologetic soundbites that just dishonor the Bible and the human intellect.

    Back to where is Chuck? Well he is where he always was, in the hands of God, he never left God. God is Pastor Smiths father, a real father not like some of the fakes running around these parts, and Chuck Smith never left his father I E divine Father, another reason I am a universalist, we have the best and most consistent answer to the question you ask, where is Chuck or who ever. He is where he always was and will be, in the hands of his Father. That is what real fathers do, we expect it, rightfully so, from earthy fathers and step fathers (which some theology says God is our step father), why not from our divine Father. Like the prodigal son, the father waited and waited for the son to turn around, that is what we (universalist) say our Father will wait until every prodigal turns around.

    So we have the body of the one that has passed, and then there is the well “the Other” call it soul, spirit, ??. But they may not be in communion at the moment but they do not leave each other, we retain memories of the physical as seen in Rev. when the martyrs remember how they died as does God, as seen in the manifestations of people passed that reappears at the transfiguration Moses and Elijah. This is the “Otherness” of us in the hands of God. There is the vessel and then there is the Breath of Life breathed into the vessel and they become one, sort of like marriage as portrayed in the bible. The material and the spiritual that transcend either state to a higher state. Maybe this is why the angels stand in awe of humanity and God’s grace to us.

    So where is Chuck? He is in the hands of the Father from which he came, and I also think he is having some long overdue talks with Lonnie. That is why I call it the great reconciliation, another reason I am a universalist.

  414. Oh and I call that good news.

  415. brian,
    You posted,
    “…another reason I am a universalist, we have the best and most consistent answer to the question you ask, where is Chuck or who ever. He is where he always was and will be, in the hands of his Father. That is what real fathers do, we expect it, rightfully so, from earthy fathers and step fathers (which some theology says God is our step father), why not from our divine Father. Like the prodigal son, the father waited and waited for the son to turn around, that is what we (universalist) say our Father will wait until every prodigal turns around.”

    Exactly the conclusion many of us have come to, couldn’t agree more.
    It’s like one author put it, “Love wins!”

  416. I did a recording yesterday which will be podcast this week. The presenter begins with the idea, “we want to say ‘thank You for another day’ but we can’t say it to ‘The Bully In The Sky’”

  417. Debra,

    You Hypocrite!!! How dare you say that Obama is not your President! Rebellion towards your rulers is as witchcraft according to the Bible. You conservatives love to spout Romans 13 when a Republican is in Office but you you weasel your out of that passage when it’s a democrat. Did you say the same thing when Ronnie Reagan was in office as his wife practiced witchcraft by consulting mediums or George Bush the elder who just approved of his friends same sex marriage and when in office was actively and openly pushing the New World Order? Of course not, because you and many like you are Hypocrites of the worse kind!!!

  418. Remember, Solomon, not trying to pick a fight or contradict, nor am I agreeing with Debra (I’m not a Dem or Rep but an independent) but sometimes Christians overlook this fact; we don’t have the same kind of govt they had in Rome during those times. In America the citizens are the governing authorities, you and me (assuming you’re a US citizen) “of the people, by the people, and for the people. The US Constitution is the rule of law, not Caesar, Obama, Bush or any of those elitist globalists. Notice our coins say, “In God We Trust.” I do think it is clear we ought to respect those in the offices appointed by God. But I personally disagree the people in those offices are appointed by God though the offices are (another debate for another day) unless the ones in there now are there to punish us, as a judgment. But franky I think a lot of voter fraud and dirty money sources put them there, though God allowed it because we ought to repent as a nation. But as it stands it looks like the world is on the brink of embracing a one world govt, fulfilling prophecy. Both parties are corrupt IMO.

  419. I get so sick of politicians using the churches and passages like that and churches using politics (CCs are big on this) rather than preaching Christ only.

  420. Don’t you get sick of the church using politics or the government using the church to further agendas when Jesus had nothing to do with any of that?

  421. Cathryn,

    yup I’m sick of it, jesus wasn’t about that

  422. There’s a fly buzzing around in here. It’s annoying.

  423. 2 hypocrites walked into a bar. They blamed each other.

  424. Solomon @ 428 “yup I’m sick of it, Jesus wasn’t about that”

    Exactly. “Thou shalt not kill”.

    Churches response? “it means you shouldn’t murder”

    Jesus’ response? “Those who live by the sword, die by the sword”, “forgive 70 x 7″, “Peter put away your weapon”, “you shall endure persecution”, “take up your cross daily”, “love your enemies”, etc.

    And that’s just ‘one’ example. We’re hypocrites.

  425. hmmmm

    I forgot the part in the Bible where Jesus was going around trying to change Laws.

  426. Solomon @ 432 “I forgot the part in the Bible where Jesus was going around trying to change Laws.”

    He was a republican & pro war, didn’t you hear?

  427. Two Jesus’s in the bible:

    1. Republican Fundamentalist Jesus of the OT and Revelation: Smith thine enemy, kill with the sword, vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, cast the enemy into perpetual torture etc.

    2. Gahndi Hippie Jesus: Turn the other cheek, love the enemy, unilateral and unconditional forgiveness.

    Both are in “the bible”.

  428. Yeah he also annointed Rush Limbaugh to be his foremost apostle of this day

  429. Alex a question if I might, please dont feel obligated to answer it on this forum or at all if you dont wish to. If that person who gave you and your brothers such a hard time and did such awful things actually came to you and asked for forgiveness, admitting what he had done etc. Would you forgive them?

    I think you would myself from what I have read here but just was wondering, I left it a bit vague on purpose. Thanks

  430. I would like a documentary and a CD on Pastor Chuck Smith’s life for my 7 grandson;s to view with them to teach them how to live their life to the maximum on earth and be gauranteed a heavenly mansion in heaven forever, no matter how or when they die as long as they have surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. The sooner the better.

    They can have children and even great grand children there with them in heaven FOREVER!!!
    Most of my older relatives are already there, and I don’t want my grandchildren to miss out on the ONLY thing that is really important.

  431. I would like a documentary and a CD on Pastor Chuck Smith’s life for my 7 grandson;s to view with them to teach them how to live their life to the maximum on earth and be gauranteed a heavenly mansion in heaven forever, no matter how or when they die as long as they have surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. The sooner the better.
    They can have children and even great grand children there with them in heaven FOREVER!!!I I don’t want my grandchildren to miss out on the ONLY thing that is really important.

  432. “I would like a documentary and a CD on Pastor Chuck Smith’s life for my 7 grandson;s to view with them to teach them how to live their life to the maximum on earth and be gauranteed a heavenly mansion in heaven forever, no matter how or when they die as long as they have surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. The sooner the better. ”

    Chuck Smith fits the American Narrative of the classical Horatio Alger story. A man goes from obscurity to fortune all by hard work. Unfortunately most of that story just doesn’t apply. Smith was very lucky. Being in the right place at the right time was his story.

  433. It wasn’t hard work and it wasn’t luck. It was being the man God wanted to use. Get over yourself if that’s possible.

    I have a question only for those who believe the bible. If you don’t believe the bible you are not qualified to answer though I know you will. You just can’t help yourself.

    There are only 2 old testament characters I know of that apparently have no character flaws. That’s Joseph and Daniel. (Melchizedek doesn’t count) My question is- Do you suppose these 2 had character flaws? I’m not asking if they didn’t have the sin nature- I know they did. If they did have character flaws, why aren’t they mentioned?

  434. Re: Redeemed @ 438,

    No legacy is without issues:

    1. King David was called, “a man after God’s own heart,” in-spite of his fall (adultery, murder, lying …)

    2. King Asa was known as a man who “followed God all the days of his life,” though he actually did not follow God at the end of his life.

    3. Chuck Smith also has a mixed legacy. Many who’ve known him behind the scenes know the negative was very real and that Chuck’s public face was well guarded.

    I think it wise to show your grandchildren Jesus in the Bible. We’re told He’s our example to follow.

    We must all remember not to commit idolatry by focusing more on anyone or anything over Jesus Christ. One helpful check is to ask the kids who they think we love and follow the most? Jesus? or someone/thing else?

  435. Re: @436

    The Peacemakers Ministry teaches people that when they ask for forgiveness to never press the person to respond with said forgiveness. The reason? It takes time. It takes time to see if the person asking for forgiveness is really sincere, at least shows it with some actions and attitudes that indicate a sincerity, especially in the case of abusive and toxic relationships.

    Many try to skip this step and rush into a restored relationship, only to find out it was yet another manipulative ploy. I think the kind of forgiveness that Jesus talked about, is the kind we have available for others, knowing we, too, are sinners and in need of forgiveness; but that is different from a wholesale restoration of a damaging relationship. We do mix those two concepts both under the term “forgiveness.” Wisdom tells us not to.

  436. Redeemed @ 438 “I would like a documentary and a CD on Pastor Chuck Smith’s life for my 7 grandson;s to view with them to teach them how to live their life to the maximum on earth and be gauranteed a heavenly mansion in heaven forever”

    I think you made a typo. Didn’t you mean you want to point your grand kids toward the life that Jesus Christ lived and that He is the way to a heavenly mansion?

    Maybe your right though…Maybe I should set the bar lower, with someone like Chuck, so she can feel more comfortable in her lifestyle choices.

  437. And by ‘she’ I mean my daughter.

  438. #440

    I think Joseph is a “type” of Christ

  439. “It wasn’t hard work and it wasn’t luck. It was being the man God wanted to use.”

    Yep, God wanted hundreds more non-denominational churches. LOL.

  440. Broderson tries to make Chuck Smith less of a heretic by trying to fix Smith’s false teachings on the resurrection –

    http://calvarychapelcostamesa.com/media/sunday/#

    Listen at 1:07:00

    FAIL, Brian, FAIL!

  441. Hi Douge hope you are well, I tried to find the particular sermon on the link and wound up listening to a few of them. I am a bit confused, of course Chuck Smith is a heretic, he is not Catholic nor is he EO, they are the two main bodies of the Christian faith from, well day one. Chuck Smith’s version of Christianity was not even on the radar until well lets say, when they made it up in the middle to late 1960′s. It was a good business move on his part and he should get perks for that. He franchised out across the globe if that is not of God then well there is no God, that too is a fact more sure than gravity. If Chuck Smith is a heretic, then I am an arch heretic or worse, Im a human being, if that does not earn my eternal hell I can’t think of anything that will.

    Brian is just trying to maintain the corporate structure, that is holy and God ordained as I have come to understand the Christian franchise. Personally we are all someone else’s heretic. I am glad that we no longer light each other on fire, hang each other, or just basically slaughter each other for Jesus. That is a step forward, given the fact we now have access to nuclear weapons. There are people out there that would push the button for Jesus and billions would die, and that would fulfill an apologetic, small price to pay. Of course people that think like that are nuts. If God wants to nuke the world, well pony up and do it yourself, thats my opinion.

  442. brian,
    You are not merely a dry humorist. You are more than sarcastic. You are a dry sarcastiac. You are THE dry sarcastiac. You define the phrase. You embody the field. You are the other half of wit. You are all the sand of the Sahara. You take Everest to new heights. You are the Bob Dylan of your genre; the Da Vinci of text. Bob Hope bows down to you. Jack Benny winces. Steve Wright applauds you. Don Rickles is crying in the corner. Norm Crosby is scratching his headache. Issac Air Freight peed their collective pants. Steve Allen prays to interview you. Underdog salutes you. Howard Stern just quit. The comic world stands in awe of you. You’ve got your finger on the button and we all hold our breath. That’s my opinion.

  443. aco funny people usually tell me IM all wet.

  444. #442 Thxs for your take on forgiveness!

  445. Peacemakers is an excellent ministry! I got to watch a series of videos they made. They get it.

  446. This may be off topic.
    Threw away my CC distinctives 3 yrs ago after conversation on this blog but just found the study guide I had worked on w/ the book.
    2001 by James Hesterly

    Lessson 3 (pg 12)
    “Church Government”

    3. What is the form of government that God established and modeled in the history of Israel?
    I wrote- Moses directed by God personally. God told him to get 70 elders for ruling and judgement

    4. In what way do we see this modified structure today?

    I wrote- Jesus Christ is head over the body of the church-He’s in charge. Pastors are like Moses-receiving direction and guidance.Board of elders-Prayer and support in seeking Lord’s leading-Godly men who respect the Pastor’s authority and are yielded to the holy Spirit.

    6. In what way can the board BUFFER (in italics in booklet) for the Pastor?

    I wrote- They deal with conflicts in congregation, they work out the issues with them. They make decisions-guide and direct.

    Since this way over a decade ago, I suppose I got my answers from the distinctives.
    I have been trying to find the NT model for this and can’t.

    This alleviates the Pastor from dealing directly with conflict or any personal dealings with the sheep. Especially CS.

    Any thoughts?

  447. PS.

    Oct 4th Calvary chapel twitter

    Had never heard about the 1 million donation

  448. I want to add that I do not believe most megachurches would be what they are today if they turned down that kind of donation, or did not have the well off supporting.

    If the Lord led that man to donate, and if he believed this is where God would have him put his $, I have to question why it was not accepted. Could the Lord have “provided” here? Was this man not hearing from God? Could that rejection have made him question his own faith and relationship the Lord?

    Just some thoughts…maybe I should read it again.

  449. Didn’t Costa Mecca used to have stairs in the front of the church up to the platform? It now looks like a stage.

  450. To no surprise, Calvary Chapel’s have turned the last two weeks into the worshipping of Chuck Smith for their sermons. It is nothing short of idolatry. Why is he the key focus on Jesus’ teachings? Calvary Chapel is a very flawed church that puts men as idols with no accountability. Every time I try to give the system another chance or overlook its extreme flaws, I’m always reminded of just how awful and corrupt it is and I can no longer participate or listen to this…I think the CC system and in many ways the modern church are a far cry from what God wants us to do. It is truly wicked and the people are so fargone that they don’t even know it. Just keep worshipping men as they use you and the church for their own selfish gain.

  451. Over the past several years, I have reviewed a number of blogged websites authored by individuals who have experienced abuse in a Calvary Chapel church. I usually review such websites as an incidental portion of my gathering extensive information for various writing projects I am working on. Although I do get involved in serious and exhaustive debates with many people who post comments on my various blogs, youtube videos and Facebook accounts, I usually don’t post comments on the Calvary chapel abuse sites, mostly because such sites seem to be based upon, or are initiated, by someone with a personal complaint they have with their own experience at Calvary Chapel as opposed to their motivation for their blog being based upon the overall issues of the Bible being violated by deceivers in a larger context. Not that I’m unsympathetic with the person’s personal experience, nor am I questioning the truthfulness of that person’s experience, but I have seen too many times where the individual’s complaint-focused blog based on their own personal experience degenerates into a blog based a lot on emotion as opposed to substance. This causes arguments to take center stage, arguments which have little Biblical value and personalities are given starring roles, not because of their obedience to Christ (or any evidence that they are living out in the world the kind of Christianity they are demanding of those who they are complaining about), but because they can aggressively assert emotionally-based rhetoric in support of attacking the blog’s intended target. When emotions and attacks against a foe (particularly when the foe is a prominent evangelical celebrity) become the primary fuel for the blog, I have seen infestations of atheists and socially liberal antagonists seductively set up shop on such blogs for the explicit purpose of tearing down the church and inciting destructive disunity among Christians. Almost always, the true identities of these individuals (which I have the ability – will not disclose how I do – to uncover who they really are) is kept under the radar to allow themselves and their motives to remain undetected. Now, if a person running a blog were generating their own writings and their own articles pertinent to their original purpose for starting the blog it would eliminate all of the issues I am raising. When the original purpose of the blog – a legitimate complaint – is relegated to the mothball-gathering closet and replaced with a blog primarily focused on internet published articles and attacks against an individual solely for the purpose of attacking an individual then the blog loses its original and worthy credibility: in other words, your site becomes nothing more than a blog for fans of those who love complaining about Christians. I personally, have an enormous stockpile of real evidence on corruption occurring inside of Calvary Chapel churches. I have a stockpile of real evidence showing how a homosexual was the key strategist for Chuck Smith’s entire Calvary Chapel movement and is the primary reason that sexual immorality and sexual sins are covered up and unaddressed in all Calvary Chapel Churches. This corruption extends into Calvary Chapel churches and their affiliates like Horizon Christian Fellowships and the Rock Churches. This corruption and the multitude of documents and real evidence I possess indicating a pattern of financial irregularities, political contributions to Calvary Chapel and Horizon Christian Fellowship leaders by homosexual Republicans in exchange for redevelopment approval for church schools, church property leases and pastors remaining silent in the pulpit about corruption and sexual sins of said politicians AND worse of all, sexual crimes and sexual behavior involving adults and minors at church-run schools. Instead of writing your own articles from real evidence you should still be uncovering on your own, you, like so many other blogs (which are now defunct), have turned your one original complaint into a blog which is just an impersonal clearinghouse for attacking a religious entity that in the end will have little, if any effect on achieving your originally stated goal. I am working on one of many books, one of which focuses on corruption in the church called: Saint James Hartline vs Sinister Minister and the Faith Based Mafia.

  452. I cant load this thread past oct 5 on my iphone so maybe others have the same problem.
    457 posts.

  453. LOL @ Costa Mecca. Did you make that up?

  454. I don’t think I was the first to use the term Costa Mecca to describe Calvary Chapel which is in Santa Ana :)

  455. It seems to me that there is symbolism in the removal of stairs and replacing them with a stage…

  456. Well it sounds better than Santa VaticAna

  457. Wow. I guess I’m late to the party.

    Firstly, I don’t know where all the Chuck Smith groupies came from, but just want to tell them to take their overweight, pasty, ugly selves and go prostrate themselves at cc.org or some other bullsh*t like that. This is Alex’s blog, he can say whatever he pleases, and it’s anti-CC AND anti-bullsh*t-church, always has been, always will be. That’s why we are here. If you don’t like it, leave. It’s one of the few places where we can post our honest thoughts and feelings about CC and churches in general, without hearing the whining of CC followers that we are wrong and we should “repent”. Go repent to yourself. And go shame on yourself. No one here gives a crap what you think.

  458. Now that I got that out of the way, I’d like to express a few thoughts about CS’s passing….

    Over the last few years, I’ve been disillusioned with church. And even though I’ve been saved at a CC and attended at CC for years, I don’t have any sadness in my heart that Chuck Smith passed away. Chuck Smith represents to me all that is wrong with the modern-day church. It is 99% marketing and fundraising and 1% doing the will of God. It’s about flashy brochures, coffee shops, book sales and speaking engagements.

    So no, I do not grieve the man who has made a “career” out of getting people to fund his billion-dollar empire. I don’t mourn his death any more than I will mourn Bill Clinton’s or Muhammed Ali. He was just another celebrity, who made a name for himself, and was able to con people out of their hard-earned money.

    I guess I’d feel more sorrow if I had seen more of his love in action, if I was able to experience God’s work through him, in a daily way. But unless you consider KWAVE a blessing (a radio station wrought with ads and book endorsements), I can’t think of one instance, in this state in time, where I owe Chuck Smith anything.

    I don’t know if he’s in heaven or in hell. No one does. But if you think Chuck Smith is the epitome of someone who loves Jesus and has given up his live to serve him…. I feel sorry for you. You have completely missed the point of the gospel. But there’s no need to exchange words, back and forth, on an internet site…. one can make an argument that to do so is just as useless as the hours I’ve spent at CCs because I thought I was worshipping Jesus.

  459. As for Alex’s tirade, ahem, his post…. it is classical Alex.

    But I can see his point of view. None of the CS groupies point that CS was WRONG for abusing the pulpit like he did. And it was so petty. How does any of that reflect Jesus? If CS could’ve manned up to anything, he could’ve publically APOLOGIZED, from the same pulpit. Instead, he continues this feud, even encouraging Bob Grenier’s lawsuit against Alex. Yeah… can you feel the love…. NOT.

    I don’t know if the cancer was a direct correlation to him threatening Alex. But all I can say is that there’s no favoritism from God, and it sure looked like Chuck Smith was on the wrong side of the “touch not God’s anointed” and he was the one that got zapped. I’m not saying I know God’s thoughts and action any more so that anyone else, but it sure looks like thats what happened.

    Then again, he was an old man. And like everyone else, he had to die. Cancer is one horrible way to die though….

    So, my final thoughts on this is… I can understand what Alex is trying to say…. but I don’t know if it’s true, only God does. It’s no more “crazier” than CS telling the story about how a woman died in a car crash when she was trying to stop CS from pastoring a church.

    But whether he died from God’s wrath or not, that is not for us to decide…. instead we should we rejoice that even a CC full-of-sh*tter, like Chuck Smith, can go to heaven because of what Jesus has done.

    That is the true gospel.

  460. I must ask this question: If the beliefs, statements, and teachings of Chuck Smith are supposed to be true and righteous — why are so many of his followers a bunch of lying hypocrites? There is a terrible disconnection between what has been taught over the years in the CC’s I have attended — and that includes CCCM — and the conduct, behavior, and lifestyles of those who have clung so closely to Chuck Smith’s teachings and the edicts of Calvary Chapel.

    I hate to say it — but I am afraid the legacy of Chuck Smith will always be overshadowed by the bad fruits and scandals produced throughout Calvary Chapel Ministries.

    It has been almost eight years since I have attended a Calvary Chapel. Since then — I have had to do a lot of soul searching to understand what brought me there in the first place and what kept me there even long after I recognized the problems. Maybe it was the fact that as a teenager I found some sort of acceptance that I couldn’t find at home — and I continued to attend because I was impressionable and believed everything I was told about the so-called fallacies in other churches and denominations. I believed Calvary Chapel was the only true church.

    I think that for any new believer Calvary Chapel is a good portal through which to learn about Jesus and to become familiar with the Bible. But if you stay too long — it becomes destructive. It’s weird — the place where I was saved, was the place where I was hurt the most. I’ll never understand it.

  461. Perhaps now that Chuck is gone many will be able to say what’s been on their heart for a long time, good or bad. It takes a while to sort through our thoughts and feelings. Sometimes it takes years to fully understand some experiences.

  462. Standing up and applauding here for Kathy’s posts #463, 4 and 5 :-) You go girl!

  463. Agreed, go Kathy!
    I couldn’t have said it better myself.

  464. Yeah he also annointed Rush Limbaugh to be his foremost apostle of this day
    Chuck one time voted for the American Party candidate since he didn’t like Ford or Carter in 1976. . I don’t like the Republicans or Democrats either. The Republicans betrayed the US by pushing Ted Cruz who wants to bring in 300,000 guest workers a year for H1b vistas, workers in computer or engineering from India or China or Russia while American workers are laid off.

  465. Well, watching old film clips of Lonnie Frisbee I felt that there were other reasons he seem a loose cannon besides the homosexuality. I mean doing his old thing and working for different people Chuck, Wimber and Mumford and traveling around the world. I did enjoy his native American art. He like Native American Art and Cowboy art since he was a native American

  466. #466 Hennie – thxs for sharing – I can relate!

  467. Like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, to me CC was ‘fundamentalism’ clothed in ‘cool’ clothing—

  468. Did you wear a granny dress?

  469. aco – lol – no I didn’t.

  470. Take your eyes off corrupted man and look towards Jesus. If you don’t believe. Fix what you personally can and gather all together where you can to find comfort. In my personal hurts I clear a path for God to reach down to me and found comfort. To allow and relive personal moments of pain is so damaging to your soul. My God is big enough to meet me where he can be found.

    Faith or irreligious we will all find out

  471. Alex this one made me laugh for quite a while, I hope it does not offend anyone. It is a bit racy so be warned.

    https://twitter.com/kinnon/status/391024548482912256/photo/1

  472. a trip back in time – just for fun—
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCqpZfQwWss

  473. thanks sue

    Just spent 4 hours online and now know everything on Mamas and Papas, Cass Elliot, her daughter, all of Michelle Philips conquests, Chynna, etc! So much for a day off!

    Brings me back to truly another time, and refreshes my memories

  474. Watching part of the John MacArthur “Strange Fire” conference and I wonder if he’s ever read any Charismatic writers?

    When he says that the Spirit doesn’t make anyone appear to be to be drunk, I have to wonder if he’s read the Book of Acts?

    When Mac says that Jesus doesn’t knock people over in the Spirit I wonder if he remembers when they came to arrest Jesus… Jhn 18:6 As soon then as Jesus had said unto them, “I am he”, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

    To attribute these things to the work of the devil sounds potentially dangerous. Wouldn’t it be better to say that they may be the works of the flesh?

    Too many things in what Mac writes which are easily answered from the Charismatic POV to make me think that he’s even tried at all to understand their POV. And I wouldn’t call myself a Charismatic particularly.

  475. I was watching the Strangefire conference and the irony meter just kept pegging. JM is big on rhetoric very little on consistent. I strained my eyes when they rolled when Droscoll showed up with is book. Both of these guys should ride around in a clown car with big shoes, funny hair and a big red nose.

  476. Although I don’t agree on Alex’s view on there not being a God, I do sympathize to his situation. I don’t understand how Chuck Smith could require that a person is 100% in agreement with his teachings and biblical views before becoming a calvery chapel pastor, but he had no authority to remove an abusive pastor? His model for the church was unbiblical. According to the scriptures an elder should be either diciplined or removed if he was being accused of something by two or three witnesses.

  477. That’s a perfect visual, Brian!

  478. just put this from 474 sue in my CC quote file:

    Like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, to me CC was ‘fundamentalism’ clothed in ‘cool’ clothing—

    seems to be about right.

  479. Well, Actually Calvary was Fundie Lite not heavily. The heavily Fundies thought that Calvary Chapel music was from the Devil. In fact the generation before the baby boomers in the church thought you had to have an organ or a piano, no guitars. Actually being 56 I like both the guitars or the organ and Piano. On the internet the heavily Fundies hate Chuck Smith, Rick Warren, Billy Grahram and many others. I read some interesting comments.

  480. Pat Robertson and Harold Camping need to scoot down so there’s room on the group W bench for MacArthur.

  481. Hearing from down the CC pipe line CC Appleton pastor Douville divorced his wife and married again. And the hits keep coming.

  482. Pat Robertson needs to get rid of his crazy predictions and develop Operation Blessing more. The food trucks and the plane that can deliver medicine and the well digging in third world counties to get water to places in India and so forth are a lot better than his predictions. Pat has a private charity system where he gives sewing machines to third world countries and has trucks assist in disasters, he should do that instead of prediction.

  483. You Hypocrite!!! How dare you say that Obama is not your President! Rebellion towards your rulers is as witchcraft according to the Bible. You conservatives love to spout Romans 13 when a Republican is in Office but you you weasel your out of that passage when it’s a democrat. Did you say the same thing when Ronnie Reagan was in office as his wife practiced witchcraft by consulting mediums or George Bush the elder who just approved of his friends same sex marriage and when in office was actively and openly pushing the New World Order? Of course not, because you and many like you are Hypocrites of the worse kind!!!
    Well, Reagan is worship by Republicans and his governorship of California would make them freak out. Reagan could be the Rino just like Richard Nixon or Gerald Ford. Personality, I like Ford the best.

  484. This looks an awful lot like a rant you posted a while back.

  485. #488 – Actually allowing the youth music in with guitars,etc. was part of the “clothing”.

  486. cynthia wrote – “Rebellion towards your rulers is as witchcraft according to the Bible.”

    The Bible says that John the Baptizer said to Herod “Mar 6:18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother’s wife.”

    So, was John a witch since he rebuked a corrupt leader?

    Or is it Biblical to speak truth to people in powerful positions?

  487. To say “we have no king but Caesar” is to deny Jesus.

  488. As for Chuck or Lonnie neither got me to attend Calvary it was a girl or young woman since she was about 22 and I was 15. She at my High School Health Class talking about druge abuse and that she became a christian. She work for the Meloydland Hot Line and I was having the blues back in 1972 and talk to her and she told me about Calvary Chapel it was a tent then and I don’t remember Lonnie Frisbee but Tom Stripe. In fact Meloydland was during the same thing as Calvary it had a lot of ex-drug users that became Christians. The other woman I believe Donna attended not Calvary but Meloydland. So, Meloydland involvement in the Jesus Movement is not mention but I remember this.

  489. Doug likes Eastern Orthodox this is an example of what he is talking about criticizing rulers. On John Chrysostom who was Patriarch of Constantinople in the early 5th century. from a passage in Wikipedia. Eudoxia is the empress in Constantinople in the early 5th century..

    “He made another enemy in Aelia Eudoxia, the wife of the eastern Emperor Arcadius, who assumed (perhaps with justification) that his denunciations of extravagance in feminine dress were aimed at herself.[20] Eudoxia, Theophilus and other of his enemies held a synod in 403 (the Synod of the Oak) to charge John, in which his connection to Origen was used against him. It resulted in his deposition and banishment.
    He was called back by Arcadius almost immediately, as the people became “tumultuous” over his departure.[23] There was also an earthquake the night of his arrest, which Eudoxia took for a sign of God’s anger, prompting her to ask Arcadius for John’s reinstatement.[24]
    Peace was short-lived. A silver statue of Eudoxia was erected in the Augustaion, near his cathedral. John denounced the dedication ceremonies. He spoke against her in harsh terms: “Again Herodias raves; again she is troubled; she dances again; and again desires to receive John’s head in a charger,”[25] an allusion to the events surrounding the death of John the Baptist. Once again he was banished, this time to the Caucasus in Armenia.[26]“

  490. Nothing was done at the CC Appleton I went to. Looks like the pastor can trade in the old wife and get a younger one and still be the head pastor. My feet did the walking.

  491. Free@last…

    Just say your wife is a mental case and disturbed and you can get away with divorce as a cc pastor and no one says a word … Works every time!

    I think it’s a chapter in the cc DiSTINKtives: How to dump the old wine skin for a new one.

  492. cynthia wrote – “Rebellion towards your rulers is as witchcraft according to the Bible.”

    Sheesh, somebody should have told that to Shadrach, Meeshach and Abednego. When they refused to bow down to their king’s idol, did God nuke them for witchcraft or supernaturally preserve them from death for their faith?

  493. Once a cc guru “Just say your wife is a mental case and disturbed and you can get away with divorce as a cc pastor and no one says a word … Works every time! ”

    That works for women too! My ex used the ‘get out of jail free’ card on me as well. I didn’t agree with her flavor of Christianity so I had “mental issues”. Irreconcilable differences divorce approved.

    Admittedly I did have mental issues though. I was ‘nuts’ for marrying that woman.

  494. Forget about the Witchcraft quote, ok. I agree sometimes you have to take on rulers.. Anyways, as a teenager I was a little screw up from the ADHD Issues and leaning disability issues, so Calvary was attractive. In fact when I entered Fritz Jr high in Santa Ana in 1969 after coming from a grade school in Gardenia I was asked if I came from Fairview State Hospital in Costa Mesa I was knew it didn’t know it was the state Hospital to care for the severely mentally retarded.

  495. Chuck Smiths recent death led me to look into CC more, and I found this Blog/web page. I have read most of it and I have experienced a large range of emotions, the greatest of which is shock and anger. I grew up in N Cal, during the 70’s, and attended both a fundamentalist churches and high school, both associated with the General Associated Regular Baptist, GARB. For those of you not familiar, they are so fundamental/conservative, they would not/do not associate with CC… too worldly for them and not correct doctrine.
    I also went to Westmont college, U. C Berkeley, Cornell, and now a Engineering Professor.. in another words, I am “ too” intellectual and secular for both GARB and CC.. (I could go on and on about what this means) Finally, while not directly attending CC, I had plenty of friends and acquaintances involved with, and effected by, CC.
    Never-the-less, my fundamentalist Bible training did show me that the actions of CC, or the lack thereof, clearly violate a number of clear, NT policies on accountability, or lack thereof, of Church leadership. In addition, so many of the posts claim that the individuals wronged attempted to privately approach the leaders and were blown off. While I am not hear to debate whether all of the post/concerns are “biblical”, clearly the NT teaches to get a group of Christians together to approach perceived moral violations by leaders and deal with it. Given modern times, and the national and international CC movement, BLOGs are the modern way for groups of Christians to discuss, and confront these issues (in fact, given the openness of this mode of communication, it is much less “gossipy” than doing it the old fashion way!) The lack of action, or attacks on character of the individuals raising questions of CC is a disgrace to Christianity, and to evangelicalism in general. This shows that evangelicals are no better than Catholics that I have heard slammed more times than I can count by fundamentalist and evangelicals! I am equally appalled by the lack of action of non-CC, Christian leaders taking a stand on this… the lack of CC being a member of ECFA, and not making strong, public statements against sexual and physical abuse says it all…..
    More power to exposing this stuff.. And, note, unlike many other posters, I am using my name…

  496. “That works for women too! My ex used the ‘get out of jail free’ card on me as well. I didn’t agree with her flavor of Christianity so I had “mental issues”. Irreconcilable differences divorce approved.”

    SOP.

  497. Could it be that your wives left you for another reason and only used the “get out of jail free” card as an excuse?

  498. “Could it be that your wife left you for another reason and only used the “get out of jail free” card as an excuse?”

    For all I know, a magical spaghetti monster in space told her to do it. I’m just going by what other family told me was the verbalized reason…divorce paperwork never says.

    She was excellent at ‘playing the victim’ to get her way in whatever situation she desired. This is, unfortunately, a mental disorder that often goes undiagnosed.

  499. Steve-oh Wrong wrote “The problem with the Lot reference in an article like this is that we read the Bible and wonder “How on earth is Lot considered righteous??” When did he ever show faith or righteous living?
    That is not the case with Chuck. A better comparison would be to the lives of Abraham or David, whose relatively few sins yes are mentioned, but clearly are offset by a lifetime of faith, worship, and service to the True and Living God.”

    Wow!

  500. Steve-o Wrong wrote – “Scroll down this link to see how many places around the world are having organized gatherings to participate in the memorial viewing”

    That’s the same Steve-o that spent years trying to convince us that Chuck was a relative unknown in the hinterlands.

  501. Steve-o Wrong also wrote – “Lot is a horrible comparison, because the record in the Bible says nothing positive about the man – other than he simply was a believer, thus leaving us readers scratching our heads.”

    I have to wonder if Steve has ever read what the Bible actually says about Lot?

    2Pe 2:7-9
    And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
    The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    Sounds like a different Lot than what Steve-o says.

  502. Doug, when you are right you often hit it out of the park. I could add about the man Lot, and what the bible says of this man, but let those who do not know search it out.

    Also to say David had few sins, perhaps perhaps but of what big ones they were!! He had a very humble heart, some others not so much, no?!

  503. Jeff Chalmers, amen and thanks for weighing in…and for the courage to put your name on it.

  504. Also, I still can not believe that anyone in the evangelical branch of Christianity can tolerate the Moses model”. Even the Catholics have more leadership structure than CC!!
    All of the Catholic bashing by fundamentalist and evangelicals, and yet the Evangelical community is largely silent on CC?? Give credit to Christianity Today for raising this issues!! IMO most, if not all, of CC issues arise out of this policy.
    A fundamental tenant of all branches of Christianity is that humans are all sinners, and the BIble clearly shows many times that the “best of men are men at best”. Apparently, CC and Chuck Smith thinks he and his leadership are above ever screwing up and needing independent oversight… That has to one of the biggest LIES I have I seen, not just in Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism, but modern History…
    On what basis is Chuck Smith “anointed”? The Mormons claim the same thing, and Mormons appeal to their number of members as prove of their anointing!!

  505. Thanks Jef chalmers for your input!
    I hope that Chuck Jr. or Jeff Smith write a book some day about what went on behind the ‘public face’ of Chuck Sr.

  506. ChuckJr has already spoken at length about what it was like for his family to have his father gone away so much on business. I had a similar father as did many others in our generation. Our fathers believed that by working hard and being away from the family they were doing what they were supposed to do as the providers for the family, In Chuck Sr’s case it was probably what he convinced himself was doing the work of God.

  507. ChuckJr has also spoken publicly about being thrown out of CC by his uncle and with his father allowing it to happen.

  508. I imagine had the Smith boys missed Chuck being there and brought it to his attention, being away so much on BUSINESS and all, Chuck would simply reply, “Well, did you read the Distinctives or get my Thru the Bible (The Word For Today) tapes? I’ll send you copies of my books; just make sure your allowance will cover the cost of the books and S&H– DON’T forget about the tapes!!!! The agape boxes are there for your Tithes and Offerings.”

  509. From PhxP
    “Dave Rolph says:
    October 26, 2013 at 9:47 pm
    Hi Gary. “Doing what was right” in that situation was complicated, and to do what was right, in the right way, involved trying to get some people together. The lack of restraint made that virtually impossible. Some other alleged victims declined involvement so I felt like I ran up against a wall. And frankly, the whole thing just wore me out personally. I totally understood Alex’s frustration. I just didn’t see how I could bring healing to the situation.”

    Wow… That must have been so hard for you, Dave.

  510. I forgot the end of that would be statement from Papa Chuck Smurf, “Oh yeah, almost forgot, boys– make sure you tell your friends, too. I may be able to offer them a discount on the books and tapes; however, it depends on the financial budget which never gets diacussed with non-member members– BUT don’t go telling them that! See you when I see you… already looking forward to that Sr. Pastor’s retreat Gluttonous Buffet… <> oh, haha, did I say Gluttonous? I meant Glutenous… I mean, Gluten-free Buffet– yeah, yeah…”

  511. Follow the money… As the last couple if posts point out… “Sailing” G$d is a big part of the “non-demonational” movement in America… Really goes back over 100 years… Just now, with modern media, much more $$$ involved
    In early 1980s, Keith Green started to publically criticize all $$$$ involved in Christian music …
    I wonder what would have happened if he had not died in the plane crash… I actually heard him in concert take on this issue

  512. Dave said, ““Doing what was right” in that situation was complicated, and to do what was right, in the right way, involved trying to get some people together. The lack of restraint made that virtually impossible. Some other alleged victims declined involvement so I felt like I ran up against a wall. And frankly, the whole thing just wore me out personally. I totally understood Alex’s frustration. I just didn’t see how I could bring healing to the situation.”

    Alex wrote “It was only complicated if the goal was more political and business-like in nature. If the goal was ‘do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may’ as it seems part of the biblical narrative expresses in many situations…then it wasn’t complicated at all.”

    Now that Chuck is out of the way, Dave Rolph can just go and pull the dove, right?

  513. All of the Catholic bashing by fundamentalist and evangelicals, and yet the Evangelical community is largely silent on CC?? Give credit to Christianity Today for raising this issues!! IMO most, if not all, of CC issues arise out of this policy
    This is true but their are Catholic groups that are ultra-traditionalists that considered Protestants heretics. There are eastern Orthodox more in the old Country like Greece and Russia that don’t like western Christianity for developments during the age of Charlesmange and don’t forgive the fourth crusade in 1204 and hold that against the Catholics what their ancestors did in the middle ages when they sacked Constantinople. In can work both ways. Many Catholics and Mainline Protestants think that evangelicals are stupid because of some of the strange beliefs of the end times. Not all evangelicals are obsessed with the end times and some are good scholors like the late FF Bruce and a very interesting guy in the early 20th century Robert Dick Wilson that knew 45 languages.

  514. “Some other alleged victims declined involvement so I felt like I ran up against a wall.”
    In the past I would have thought this was just another lie but after appearing in court alone several times I can honestly say that I will never stick my neck out for another “Christian”. The other supposed victims left me to deal with their bully alone.

    Not alone? Ya, whatever.

  515. Cynthia, my comment about Catholic bashing by evangelicals was primarily about the power structure of the Catholic Church. A core tenant of Luther/Calvin, and reformation movement is the ” priesthood” of the believer… We can read the bible ourselves, in our own language (without the printing press, Luther could not have pulled it off), and pray to G$d directly, no need for priest to be an intermediary. Hugh change…. Wrestled power from the church!

    Unfortunately, many times protestants replace one Pope with many “local” popes, or in the case of CC they use the “Moses model” to recreate a church structure that has similarities to Roman Catholism. Lake of lay oversight, lack of financial transparancy, and I especially like the CC leadership conferences with ” big name” speakers, but no CC lay persons allowed.. Kind of reminds me of the cardinals meeting in Rome ( and I am not talking about the football team!)

  516. PS
    Another characteristic of highly centralized leadership/control is selective excommunication for actions considered serious “sin” by the leadership, and overlooking other “sins” that are not as “bad”. CC is blog is full of examples: being a Calvinist is worthy of excommunication, but not sexual, physical abuse, nor is financial abuse..
    More generally, fundamentalist and young earthers will excommunicate you for not towing their doctrine, yet they have plenty of skeletons in their closest as well… I have seen this first hand! Again, “local” Popes replace the big pope… While these local popes do not require you pray through them, they are quick to condemn you to hell for not holding to their doctrine, despite genuine reading of scripture and raising legitimate issues. This is because it threatens their power structure, and their, typical simplified, world view. Really, it is an issue of arrogance. Really, how can we finite humans comprehend the eternal! Both spiritual and physical?

  517. Jeff Chalmers…i couldn’t agree more. Those are the dynamics in play. You nailed it, IMO.

  518. All of you that are chasing “issues” with CC:
    As “deep throat” said to the Washington Post reporters during the WaterGate scandal.. follow the money… unfortunately, money really is at the core of so many issues…

    While many issue set Martin Luther off, the indulgences were one of the “biggies”. Pope Leo XX offered indulgences so he could et bucks to rebuild St. Peter’s in Rome. Remember that next time you enjoy it in Rome!!

    There is NO reason, IMO, that CC should not open its books in the local churches, let alone the overall org, to the people in the pews (or movie theater seats as the mega churches use these days). Asking for open books dodges all of the “other” smoke that can be blown to try to cover for G&d anointed. What is there to hide???

  519. “What is there to hide???”

    In my experience, there’s much to hide and these guys hate accountability. They want to spend the money however they want and then hide behind a puppet board and blame it all on their decisions, when in reality the board, in the CC Moses Model Construct, does what the Senior Pastors wants…as it is perceived that the Senior Pastor is “specially anointed” for that particular Calvary Chapel.

  520. James Hartline wrote:

    “the true identities of these individuals (which I have the ability – will not disclose how I do – to uncover who they really are) …”

    That sounds cool! Why don’t you show us now!

    Tell us … Who Am I ???

  521. He who believes shall have everlasting life.

  522. Watched the entire Chuck Smith memorial. Skipped through a lot of the music but listened to all the speakers. Did OK until one nutcase mentioned seminary in the usual CC way of “cemetery, oh, I mean seminary”. Got me yelling at the nut. Don’t know or care which nut it was, just exposes all of them in my mind. The audience was not particularly mic’ed so I couldn’t make out if there was derisive laughter like there usually is at such CC claptrap.

    Greg Laurie always gets me thinking. I believe he is about a 1/4″ deep mentally and doesn’t have a particularly well developed or nuanced faith. He speaks with great swagger, which is something a lot of people really respect but very little substance, which people generally like as well. He may be a compelling evangelist for some reason I can’t fathom but he always comes across as angry to me when he speaks – at least in his tone. I think he might have been an OK cartoonist when he did that comic book, but I still don’t believe that a 17 year old guy is ready to be a pastor of a church. Especially one who hasn’t (so it seems) taken a single moment to improve himself on what he learned at Smith’s knee so many years ago.

    Don McClure is a self important… You can tell he thinks a lot about himself but I did appreciate his speaking of the competitive streak in Smith. Smith, unlike the humble reputation he worked so hard to cultivate, was someone who hated to lose and viewed things as competitions. That’s certainly a part of his success, but not nearly as much as being in the right place at the right time was.

    Where was David Hocking? Too embarrassing to have there?

    Someone mentioned on PhxP that Kay has Alzheimer’s which was substantiated by ChuckJr’s words that the family has had a full time nurse at the house even before ChuckSr’s illness.

    Cheryl Broderson was an odd speaker. Rarely faced forward which seemed strange. Everyone else did a good job of playing to the camera. She dodged the camera. Seemed almost deliberate.

    Most surprising was that Lonnie Frisbee was mentioned by several speakers as being important in the CC beginnings – as he definitely was. I saw that as Lonnie’s revenge in overcoming Chuck’s somewhat cruel words about him as “a Samson” and “someone who could have been something” at his own funeral. Wonder why nobody there mentioned that Chuck was an Eli who really could have been something if his family loyalties didn’t get in the way? No, it was a night for saying nice things and harmless stories to make a man who most knew as distant in his lifetime seem human in his death.

    Most disturbing to me is the very confused theology of the replacement body and the resurrection. CC has got this one so wrong that I don’t think there was a single preacher who got it right. Admittedly many preachers don’t get this right. It takes some subtle mental energy and that’s not something CC is particularly known for in Christian circles. Still, you’d imagine that with all of them there would have been a word of correction for what was Smith’s major heresy. Surely some of them know Smith’s view was heretical???

  523. Im confused about all of their theology, it was nice to finally put faces to many of the names I heard these many years and see them “live”. Doug I was never part of CC though I did go to some services, I had a hard time with the end times clap trap and the satanic ritual abuse stuff in the 80′s. Though CC was not into that to much. They, I E the church and staff I knew were very nice people and always seemed kind. On line that was a bit different during the Alt.Religion.Christian.fill in the blank day.

  524. I watched most of it last night. Things I noticed so far till Greg Laurie….

    Seemed more like a PR event than a memorial service, some of those people??? why did they need to speak, for what purpose?

    Three plus hours long really! Sorry but how rude to those who had to drive a distance and get up early for work.

    Interesting how both Mike Macintosh and Jon Coursen mention things about being humble and it’s really all about Jesus, something like that, who are they thinking of when they bring this up, my thoughts perhaps some of the egos in cc land.

    It seemed to be the Broderson’s enjoying themselves being the host of this production.

    People missing yes was interesting. Maybe David Hocking a little, but no other child but Cheryl??

    Jon Coursen looks like he has gone thru………

    Big insightful and very telling, as Doug mentioned how competitive Chuck Smith was, wanting always to win, wow and wow doesn’t sound like….it is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me, kind of thing or dying to oneself, I got so much out of that…..wining is everything and this can turn into the ends justifies the means, no?

    Another big thing that hit me was one of the pastors, sorry forgot who. Said when his daughter ran away from home, Chuck didn’t skip a beat in moving on!!! Are you kidding, wow that had to hurt! I would be shocked!!! Reminded me of Chuck Jr.’s comment about…. if you wanted someone to cry with you go to my mom, if you wanted some one to be happy with you dad was your man. Interesting, well there is definitely enough evidence that Chuck was a fun guy and was always happy so why should we expect him to care about some of us that he and those he supports have so damaged, right? He has no time for our hurts…. eat, drink(no alcohol please, lol) get rich and be competitive for tomorrow you……

    There is no doubt Chuck had some very nice attributes and loved the Lord and I am sure that pleases Him, but perhaps He has a few things against him, perhaps they are very big and very grievous! I have no doubt this is the whole story.

  525. “Seemed more like a PR event than a memorial service,” It was clear to me that all “memorial” services should be just that in the sense that you preach the “gospel” witness to unsaved people etc. Grief was a byproduct and nothing more. There should be lots of bible, if the person was saved then you speak to that, if not, you witness to the lost and speak on how that person was lost. The more intense form was the work the hell card so that you make everyone upset. If you get unsaved family members wanting to punch you, you did good. But it all should be scripted and play according to the apologetic.

    I wish I could just grieve at a memorial service myself, I count that a weakness and at times it disgusts me about myself. What a strange religion.

  526. In listening to the memorial service, it was eerie for me seeing what has become of Greg laurie. To me, he has gone from being an ‘individual’ during his teen years to being imo a ‘clone’ of Chuck Sr. – even ‘looks’ like Chuck with his bald head and ‘sounds’ like him – parroting all the beliefs Chuck has – sort of like he is Chuck’s son – more than Chuck’s sons. The ‘artist’ has been transformed into a ‘conservative fundie’ like Chuck Sr. was – all very weird —- like a twilight zone story

  527. Sue your observation struck me, what Pastor Laurie did do was maintain a consistent revenue stream and increase his funding base. That may sound cold and I do not mean it that way, but if one does not do that one stops being a Christian and becomes an enemy of the American Jesus. That is more sure than gravity. I reiterate it would be nice to just grieve as an evangelical Christian but that is not, never has been, and most likely will never be an option.

  528. where is the link to the service?

    Olivia@ Reminded me of Chuck Jr.’s comment about…. if you wanted someone to cry with you go to my mom, if you wanted some one to be happy with you dad was your man. Interesting, well there is definitely enough evidence that Chuck was a fun guy and was always happy so why should we expect him to care about some of us that he and those he supports have so damaged, right?

    Well, Jesus was able to cry with others, as well as rejoice.
    This comment reminds me of one my Pastor said frequently-I guess when people wondered why he did not do counseling. He said it was not his “gift”. People accepted it, as I did at the time. Since he called CS his Pastor, he did model his behavior after him, and always appeared happy- I wonder if that is a façade-but it makes for growing a church cause everyone wants a happy guy as their Pastor, right?

  529. …not a man in chains like Paul

  530. The purpose of a memorial service is to pay respect to the deceased. That’s what I saw at the (say it with me) memorial service.

    The reason Greg preached is because that’s what Chuck wanted. Not what he would’ve wanted but what he wanted. I, too missed seeing his other kids there. Some of the live singing was awful but it was live and not over produced. It was 4 hours, not 3, and for a man as popular as Chuck that was short. I wonder if CCCM had their own memorial service. If they allowed anyone to speak it would’ve gone on for days. I could sit through a lot of personal stories about Chuck.

    Having said all that, I must say to all the old CC pastors- it’s time to pass the torch to the next generation like Chuck did for you.

  531. The concept of “happy” transcends “religious” institutions. I like to closely, and at times, “academically” study commercials and marketing… HUGH amounts of money is spent in America on this, to get us to buy things… Smiley, happy, good looking, simple sound bit messages, (and many times “eye-candy”) is the way to sale things in America. Also, you measure success by quarterly numbers, or “poll numbers”… American Evangelicalism has bought into this BIG-time…

  532. “It was 4 hours, not 3, and for a man as popular as Chuck that was short.”

    I wonder how long a service Lincoln, Karl Marx or Mao had? My guess is far shorter than 3-4 hours.

  533. “It was 4 hours, not 3, and for a man as popular as Chuck that was short.”

    Unfortunately it wasn’t a Christian service/

  534. Casual Observer( or are you?)

    I believe I said three plus hours but maybe I should have rounded up to four?!

    You missed my point/ If the event started around five and it lasted 3 3/4 hr ish that would be trying to get out of the parking lot at about 9 pm, a late night for some to get home.

    Hannah,

    I went to pp and he had it on the top right of Oct 27…cs memorial service. Thought Michael did a fair job in his article.

  535. #539 – Hi Hannah – I was never comfortable around Chuck Sr. The ‘smile’ all the time did seem to me like a ‘religious’ facade and was hard to take. I heard that at home, he was very different. His sons were different too away from him.

  536. I looked it up. Abraham Lincoln’s funeral took 2 hours (in a day when things tended to be long winded). http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/education/whfuneral.htm

  537. Well, I should have know this was off, by my early 20′s I was familiar enough with ancient and medieval history to know the Gog and Magog theory was off. The sychians were gone pretty much as a people but some of their DNA could be in modern Russians ,but Moscow was founded by Vikings since Finland and Sweden are closed by. So Rus comes from the Viking peoples not the Sychians like Chuck taught. Around the 5th century lots of Slavic people poured into the Balkans and arrive earlier probably in parts of Russia and so forth. Gog of Magog was according to the Assyrians a Lydian. Lydians are in modern turkey and also Lydians probably went to Italy and are known there as the Estrucians. Jerome and some medieval scholars confused some 19th century protestants and Josephus might have been wrong on hiss passage on the Sychians with Magog since he is better with history closer to his time period. Herodotus the Greek historian that Magog refer the the Lydians.

  538. From calvarytraining dot org – “Chuck Smith took bold risks on people. Last night’s tribute made me keenly aware of this and helped me to understand so much. Many of the attacks on Pastor Chuck from his critics stem from this, that he took chances on people.”

    1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.

  539. Oh well, in my private life I’m trying to make the statement of Paul at Athens he is not far from us, in him we live and move and have our being. As for Chuck and Calvary Chapel I think of that old movie Ben Hur, where Judah Ben Hur is betrayed by his best friend Marcellius and he is sold into slavery and his mother and sister have leprosy. Ben Hur gets his revenge and Marcellius dies after the chariot race and then Ben hur sees Christ’s Crucifixion and wonders if the revenge was right.

  540. “Since its first publication, Ben-Hur has never been out of print. It has been called “the most influential Christian book written in the nineteenth century”,[1] and Carl Van Doren wrote that the novel was, along with Uncle Tom’s Cabin, the first fiction many Americans read. Between 1880 and 1912 the book sold an estimated one million copies, and by 1893 a study found that Ben-Hur was the most widely held contemporary novel in libraries, with 83% possessing copies. Grant, President James Garfield, and Jefferson Davis were all enthusiastic fans, and Southerners likely well received the Union general’s sympathetic description of the Jews as a conquered people. The book was so popular in both the North and South that one scholar has written that “Wallace’s Ben-Hur helped to reunite the nation in the years following Reconstruction.”[9] By 1900 it had been printed in 36 English-language editions and translated into 20 other languages, including Indonesian and Braille. In 1912, Sears Roebuck published another one million copies to sell for 39 cents apiece, the largest single-year print edition in American history.[2] It outsold every book except the Bible until Gone With the Wind came out in 1936. After the 1959 release of the film based on the book, the novel returned to the top of the list in the 1960s. It often appears on popular lists of great American literature, which has been a source of frustration for many literary critics over the years.[11]
    Critics point to problems such as flat characters and dialogue, unlikely coincidences driving the plot, and tedious and lengthy descriptions of settings.[11] But others note its well-structured plot and exciting story,[11] with its unusual mix of romanticism, spiritual piety, action and adventure.[6] A 1905 review from the New York Times noted that Ben Hur was Wallace’s “Masterwork”. It further noted, “Ben Hur appealed to the unsophisticated and unliterary. People who read much else of worth rarely read Ben Hur”.[12]
    While other Biblical novels such as The Prince of the House of David (1855) had preceded Ben-Hur, it was among the first to make Jesus a major character. While Wallace only used dialogue from the King James Bible for Jesus’ words, he was innovative in creating fictional scenes involving Jesus and including a detailed physical descriptions of the Christ. Many clergy and others praised Wallace’s detailed description of the Middle East during Jesus’ lifetime, and at least one former alcoholic wrote the author a letter crediting Ben-Hur with causing him to reject alcohol and find religion.[9] Many 19th-century American clergy encouraged their congregations to read the book. Such religious support helped it to become one of the best-selling novels of its time. It not only reduced lingering American resistance to the novel as a literary form, but later adaptations were instrumental in introducing some Christian audiences to theater and film.[6][9]
    Adaptations”
    from Wikepadia on the novel Ben Hur influence in the 19th century.

  541. What’s on my mind….and who cares, lol.

    It has been several days since anyone posted on this thread, tired of seeing cs, sorry to say but that is how I feel

    Anyone know what is the word on any changes to cc, and how things will change or is it too early

    Sure wish Overly Concerned would drop by.

    Heard from someone who went to the Calvary Chapel’s Men’s Conference, in Anaheim I believe, he doesn’t go to a cc but said something interesting….most of the pastors seemed to be saying the same thing and sounded the same way. That was his take.

    I can’t really listen to them, meaning on the radio, but I remember when I did a few times over the years since we left cc, I was amazed at how much none ” pure Word” was being given out. When I have listened they seem to being talking a lot about their lives or their thoughts or stories etc. and not deep meat type of teaching. Perhaps it was just me.

  542. Olivia-

    We know that in the end times (If you believe we are there) there will be a falling away and great apostasy. So we shouldn’t really be surprised.

    I am glad that “Crushed” on the other thread has found a church. I have been searching.. finally after years of visiting where Jesus was being marketed, I thought I found “Home”.. where I thought the Pastor was sincere and the Lord quickly revealed to me otherwise, through a few circumstances within a 4 month period.

    With a congregation of about 30- where there is much pressure to generous giving, when I asked what they are doing as far as evangelism to the community, the Pastor replied that they already went out to the community to no avail…What?? So what are we doing? Paying the rent? My heart is to reach lost souls. If that is not what is in the Pastors heart, and he has given up on the community, there is no reason to support him. IMO, they can meet in someone’s backyard and take the $ they pay the Landlord, and feed the poor.

    If you have somewhere to go where the emphasis is on Jesus, not man, I think you are fortunate. I have given up on man made institution–still hold out hope though. Church is big business. They are opening up in every shopping center. People are giving without knowing if any of the money the Lord blesses them with, through their hard work and diligence, is actually going to promote the gospel and save souls. (or is just going into the hands of man to promote their own man-kingdom and supplemental income.)

    I was reading Bible commentary online last night and a pop up came on “Pastors-get a theological degree online”!

    A sidenote- My old CC Bible college had a reformed teacher teaching there who was respected, yet if anyone was a Calvanist at the church they were thrown out. Happened to several elders there. Obviously, his theology did not line up with CS’s. In fact, it was an enemy to CS. I remember my kids had him for Bible class and I found it ironic that they would throw out elders who became Calvanists, yet would have a man who taught at Bible college teach the kids in the school Bible classes. Of course, they wouldn’t think anyone would notice I guess. That’s why I was so much of a problem there!

  543. Hey Olivia- Maybe we can suggest a new topic to Alex-that is if he is still around! ;)

  544. I wonder if there isn’t a need to clarify the mission of this page?

    At least in part, the original mission was to shame Calvary Chapel – namely Chuck Smith – into taking action to remove Bob Grenier. That avenue is no longer open.

    What will be the surviving entity with the power to pull the dove? If there is one, then perhaps they are where attention now needs to be focused.

  545. Hannah, sounds good to me.

    Doug, who do you think those people are?

  546. Jesus said the poor would always be with us, but how many man kngdoms are there that opportunistically either cater to or exploit the wealthy, yet neglect the poor?

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/08/the-obamacare-question-pastors-shun/comment-page-4/

  547. Andy G – Getting into Obamacare is another subject indeed. I think the Obamacare program is not the answer and here is why. My opinion on what is wrong with America’s health care system is that the health of many people in our country is in the hands of big business like Blue Cross who are out to make a profit – they can’t survive without a profit. Why is the health of so many dependent on businesses who need to make a profit to exist? To expand medicaid and medi-cal is to incur a huge debt that has to be paid by someone. Who is going to pay for the millions signing up for it? Obamacare mainly hurts those who are working hard in the middle classes by making them pay more for their insurance than they are paying now and by giving them less coverage. Making them pay more for their hard work is not a reward for working hard – it is absurd! There are other ways to have a solution!! Kaiser is a good model. All the premiums people pay go to them, not some outside business like Blue Cross or Blue Shield for example. Kaiser then can use all the premiums for all their members. If someone is healthy and doesn’t need to see a doctor, their premiums can be used to treat someone in need. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone pays for it. In helping the poor which is noble, let it not hurt those who are working hard and busting their behinds to get ahead – imo,a ‘tax’ on them in the disquise of Obamacare is unfair and kills the incentive to work hard. A friend of mine who qualifies for medicaid is going to make sure he doesn’t earn too much so he can continue to get it – which is absurd – it is killing his drive to work hard and get ahead. We don’t need our health insurance dependent on big business who need to make a profit to survive. If everyone’s health insurance premiums were not spent on big business, there would be plenty of money paid in to help everyone. Imo, Obama should not have a policy that mainly hurts the middle class. The very rich can afford Obamacare. The very poor can too if they get on medicaid or medical. They then pay usually nothing, which is unfair to those who can barely afford their premiums in the middle class and are underinsured because they often can’t afford the better policys. Imo, the middle classes that Obama pretends he cares about are vulnerable to being mowed over in his process – whether white black brown or whatever color – Obamacare imo is a horrible solution, especially for the middle class! There is a better way—. Lets care not just about the very poor, but also the hard working middle class.

  548. Sue-

    Your friend who is making sure he doesn’t work hard enough to qualify for some of his benefits IMO is what is the problem.
    This is the new way of life.
    There are many like him that are milking the system.
    Obama will support moms who have up to 4 kids (that’s the maximum) who are not marrying their baby daddies (there many be more than one), and are making upwards of $50,000.00 and up in benefits for those kids who they will get paid for till they are 18. If they get a job, that is icing on the cake cause they get all of their taxes paid back for their dependents, and about 150. a week for each kid toward daycare. You see all these daycare places opening up with the sign that they accept Gov’t benefits (forget the letters that it stands for) and they call it “free” in ads.
    In my area I see this more and more
    These babies have free day care, the mom gets 500.00 for ea per kid, tons in food stamps (which can now be used at discount clothing stores and not to feed the kids) the latest Iphone and seems to get a replacement every time it is broken or stolen.
    They get the best health care free- ER room any time rather than wait to see the Dr.- the day care $ for all 4 kids can be given to a friend who watches the kid,(I don’t know how they can get away with this) who gives some back to them.
    So just having 3 kids can give you in perks and benefits, enough to live on for many.
    if they work 20 hours a week, but not more since they can they lose some benefits, so they carefully plan their salary and hours to get the most of their benefits.
    They have weekly manicures, and cocktails at lunch.
    Many don’t work and do very well on what the gov’t pays out.
    As long as you have a functioning uterus to pump out the babies, you have power nowadays. Forget getting married – That would make a father for the kids. And would make him responsible rather than Uncle Sam.
    I have firsthand knowledge of all this because I work with someone who has laid it all out for me. She is 25 with 3 kids and one on the way. Also I have a friend who works for the government the last 25 years and deals with applicants. She is sickened since she is 62 and needs to work till she can retire. What they get away with is unreal. There must be classes they take to learn how to live off the government at the expense of those who work hard. Why go to college. Just have a baby when you get out of high school.

    There was a time when people were on welfare temporarily till they can get their feet back on the ground or there were deserted women. Now they plan this. It is a much different situation. Immigrants are taking advantage of us. They are benefitting from this country more than we are who have paid taxes all our lives.
    OK rant over.

    What is sad is that the middle class husband and wife care struggling for their family working 2 jobs full time and do not come close to what this Medicaid mom is earning.
    I would say with a 25K salary and 4 kids, it is close to what some earn at 65K paying taxes.

  549. PS. If forgot to mention a 3 month online medical assist certificate (free to those who qualify) many of them get to pretend they are looking for a job to prove to the government they plan on working.

  550. I hear you Hannah. To add to your stories are plenty of other stories I’ve heard like about the many who work part time at a job where they pay taxes and then work ‘under the table’ for cash that is never claimed so their income is kept low to qualify for food stamps, free school lunches, very low cost or zero cost medical insurance for their kids till they are 18, free financial aid that pays for college, lower electric and gas bills, etc. I heard the welfare lifestyle is becoming epidemic in cities here in SoCal with young girls out of high school deliberately getting pregnant to take advantage of it. Another example; I was working at a job where a customer told me she wouldn’t get out of bed for the kind of money I was making. (back in my 20′s) She came into the clinic using medi-cal. When I see people struggling to pay their medical and dental bills who have lived here all their lives and who pay taxes while others who haven’t get a ‘free’ ride — it’s just so unfair – common sense says there is something wrong with all this abuse of our system and the taking advantage of our system that was supposed to be a helping hand up, not a lifestyle. Where are the reverends who will address this immorality to their congregations which include many who practice this lifestyle?

  551. Sue-

    I am on the other coast.
    We have women from S. America who do not speak English cleaning homes and making 150.00 a day cash non-claimed and then living as if unemployed off the gov. with all the benefits I mentioned above.

    America.What a great country!

  552. Andy G @ 557 “Jesus said the poor would always be with us, but how many man kngdoms are there that opportunistically either cater to or exploit the wealthy, yet neglect the poor?

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/08/the-obamacare-question-pastors-shun/comment-page-4/

    The problem is, and always will be, mammon. If I have $100 for charity per month, whether it feeds the starving or insures the uninsured, I still only have $100 per month.

    What if I would like to feed the hungry as a greater necessity than providing healthcare?That is the crux of the matter…a dollar is still a dollar no matter what “rights” we think each person is entitled to. Each “right” costs a real world amount of dollars.

    If the government raises my health care premiums to pay for the uninsured’s…I am not opposed to that outright…but my food bank will be sad when my donations stop.

    Forced insurance charity = Forced losses for other charities

  553. Put up a short article on the controversy that was raised by Rick Warren’s presence on the stage at Chuck Smith’s Memorial Service…

    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/CS%20Memorial%20Service%20Contro

    The audio clip is up there, too. I doubt that the CC pastor will leave it up long and I wanted to capture it for posterity. Or is this the sign that pastors no longer are under the cone of silence?

  554. Doug, I most always enjoy seeing what you add, your seasoning, I listened to this cc pastor, wow kinda strong, no?

    Chuck spent quite a bit of time influencing his tribe, and cc church people, when he did not like people like Rick Warren, a lot because of jealousy, IMO. So how can any leadership one day simply change all that without some OPEN discussions about why the change and what IT means, unless it wants to continue being a dis functional church. Of course all chaos will be it’s fruit. I for one do not care for Rick Warren’s brand, but I care for cc’s ……….we got it right and everyone else doesn’t far far less.

    Been looking at pp for news every once in awhile since Alex is not here much and they seem to be in the know. Someone on that blog recently pointed out the influences that Alex and Michael have had on cc, and it is far greater than cc wants to admit, I’m thinking.

  555. Pastors no longer under the cone of silence,,, lol,,remember Get Smat?

  556. Olivia-

    All RW’s “Purpose Driven Life” books were taken out of the CC bookstores.
    Apparently by CS “ruling”

  557. If there was a single shred of pax between Chuck Smith and Rick Warren, I credit that peace to Warren. He was attacked repeatedly by the CC camp but realized that he could become friends with Smith and took actions to make that happen. My view from the cheap seats.

  558. Olivia wrote “So how can any leadership one day simply change all that without some OPEN discussions about why the change and what IT means, unless it wants to continue being a dis functional church.”

    I’m with you. I was attending the Vineyard when they had the Kansas City Prophets as the best thing since sliced bread and then the next day were repudiating them. No words on the why’s from the pulpit.

  559. Hannah, you mean to tell me that the same Chuck who doesn’t get involved with other cc church matters, decides what books they are allowed to have in their bookstores, yep that’s what we mean to say, cause to say otherwise is a lie.

    Another book I remembering him speaking up against was Jabaz, again I believe in large part because of jealousy from the tremendous success it received.

    Doug, if cs felt that rw, in his attempt to friend him, was kissing the ring, that would be enough to change cs feelings about all things purpose driven, imo.

  560. I just want to point out what a joke and unGodly thing Calvary Chapels are. It’s an entire system of no accountability and a way for nepotism to run rampant so that the preacher can take care of everyone in his family and provide salaries for joke positions while these people get to go on lavish vacations and live comfortably and avoid real jobs all in the name of ‘Jesus’, right. Don’t touch Gods anointed? Right. Cause Jesus would love for the congregation to give all tithes to help you with personal projects, to help your family avoid having to work a real job while they struggle, to create your palace aka church building that looks more like MTV cribs than it does a place of worship, etc.

    The financial abuse in Calvary is ridiculous to say the least. It’s being used as an excuse to give salaries for positions that do not warrant full time salaries. A worship leader needs a full time salary? Um no. We need bout 15 pastors on staff making full time salaries? Um no. It’s just a big family business profiting off of the gospel. The idol worshipping that goes on is disgusting at these places.

  561. Doug @ 570,

    Same here. In a Vineyard giving platform to Kansas City Prophets one day and then removing them the next. Our church turned back into a Calvary Chapel after that. Now, those prophets have reinvented themselves at the IHOP in Kansas City, at least two of them, I think. IHOP has far reaching influence.

    When the change happened, it was swift. I was glad to see the Bible returned to it’s rightful place, above experience. Prior to that, experience was the key factor in one’s supposed spiritual maturity. Many left over that change. They didn’t understand and were not brought along with clear teaching and some patience, so they could understand what went wrong and why the severe change all of a sudden.

  562. Nap, right on all counts.

    Grateful, always good to hear from you, I never skip what you post. With what Nap just shared,do we have salaries of some of these rich cc pastors, realizing it is not just their salaries but so much more they are benefitting from as you have shared in the past, perhaps it could be shared again when you feel lead?

  563. Nap,
    Which Calvary do you go to?

  564. Certainly in Israel Nap its not just CC that are living the good life pastors of messianic ministries living in villas-their children’s university paid for-cars-trips abroad-all coming out of donations and tithes.what is actually being spent on ministries and what is spent on personal needs. Would very much like to know.the squeaky clean well turned out american evangelists out here are sure making a bad name for themselves.ask pastors wife Patricia apple of calvary tel Aviv what she spends in the coffee shop in any given week-could certainly feed a lot of homeless.

  565. I met chuck smith once in Israel always very suspicious about people who constantly smile-i am always waiting for someone to reach into the back of the neck and change the battery.
    So he took a lot of chances on people.isn’t that what Christians are supposed to do?
    I think it all got too big for him in the end and way over his head.

  566. Nadav

    You mention the smile. My former CC Pastor also has a perpetual smile-that is when he is on stage (aka pulpit). I have seen the smile disappear, but never on the pulpit.

    As human beings, we react to a smile. It actually changes our biochemisty. This has been proven by experiment.

    Joel Osteen also has a perpetual smile.
    It definitely projects happiness and success.
    Who would not want that?

    Nadav-
    Awhile ago you mentioned the Sabbath and that the Christians are meeting the “wrong” day.
    Are you saying that you are still under the Saturday Sabbath, and if so, are only the Jews under this or also the Gentiles in the “church”?
    Thanks.

  567. Well you are correct Hannah-we all react to a smile-its a proven sales gimmick.so, are we reacting to a sales pitch or the word of G-d??
    Yes apart from Jews most messianic christian ministries hold services on Saturday shabbat-plus many protestant Anglican and Lutheran churches here have Saturday services.
    Most catholic churches of course have Sunday which is a throw back to sun god worship.

  568. Nadav “Yes apart from Jews most messianic christian ministries hold services on Saturday shabbat-plus many protestant Anglican and Lutheran churches here have Saturday services.
    Most catholic churches of course have Sunday which is a throw back to sun god worship.”

    I understand that Nadav, but you didn’t answer my question ;)

  569. NAP

    To add to what you have said about unnecessary positions, I have recently heard of a missionary that now has a full time “assistant”.
    The “missionary” goes to far away exotic places that most of us would like to visit in our lifetime, stays at really nice hotels and takes the teens, (who either go for free or raise money from their parents friends), plays sports with the kids, and I guess at times also shares the gospel.

    The paid assistant seems unnecessary.

  570. Sorry Hannah-if your question is should gentiles be under Saturday shabbat day of worship the answer is yes of course.

  571. And Hannah -if the question is are gentiles here in Israel under the shabbat worship law most Anglican and protestant and Lutheran churches prefer to hold services on shabbat as this is the correct day of worship but its not compulsory.Catholic Greek orthodox and many others hold services on Sunday and are free to do so.if however your ministry is to the Jews you have to hold services on a shabbat because apart from anything else Sunday is our first day of the week and we are all at work so your church is gonna be empty.

  572. Nadav, I liked that you stood by your convictions, I can respect that. I have mixed thoughts about this issue. Agree it is part of pagan influence, and the true day in biblical days( lol, so these aren’t biblical days, sounds funny) was of course Saturday. I do not have a big problem with going to church on Sunday, as that is when most churches gather, just wish it was not considered ” the day to worship”, Most christians think that we are under grace so the day we gather doesn’t matter so much, I guess I would not go so far, it was one of the ten commandments. I am convinced if we had our “religion” all squared away much of what we believe would change. Because of that I do not get into debates over most issues people argue over, unless it is all the sins I complain about cc, sex, abuses, money, power corruption etc.

  573. Nadav

    The Sabbath will always be the Sabbath and the gathering of believers on the first day of the week (which is Sunday in Judaism or Sundown on Saturday) has nothing to do with Shabbat.

    When I visited several Messianic Temples (I never liked the name “temple” as it was where the sacrifices were performed-which doesn’t exist-so I prefer to call them Synagogues (and wondered why they are not named that), It was a “them against us” issues with the day to worship.

  574. Nadav “Sorry Hannah-if your question is should gentiles be under Saturday shabbat day of worship the answer is yes of course.”

    Were the Gentiles at the time of Jesus under the Sabbath?
    I don’t think so.

  575. Hannah
    Temple is an English word for the Hebrew bet mikdas or Holy house simply translated-synagogue is Greek for meeting place-the Hebrew word is bet knesset-meeting place.
    “Church never existed as a building in the bible.Peter if asked where he went to church would probably have answered “I am the church”.

    Were the gentiles at the time of Jesus under the shabbat?”

    Gentiles are anyone not Jewish and perhaps you can tell me exactly where they were all going to church whether it was Sunday or Saturday?
    They were all worshipping pagan gods roman Greek Assyrian mesapotamian Egyptian etc etc.so shabbat didn’t actually come into it.

    Don’t get me wrong its not a me against you thing-better to worship G-d on what ever day you want than not at all.my problem is pagan day were used such as Sunday the day of the sun god-25th of December etc etc as a compromise to get the masses.

  576. Whether non Jews were forced to worship their respective pagan gods on the shabbat-no-on the contrary as Rome was the power then many were forced to worship roman gods or the emperor himself who was thought of as a god.
    Also today there is complete freedom of worship n Israel-jewish Muslim christian bahai druze we’ve even got Mormons scientologists and hari Krishna all doing their own thing on their own days.

  577. Nadav

    I guess the question is really this:
    When a Jew converts or is “completed” in Yeshua, are they still under the law as far as all the commands in the OT?
    Ex: The LORD commanded the Israelites to keep the Passover.
    That would mean to some the slaughter of the lamb yearly.
    Since Yeshua came and died as the Pesach, this “everlasting” ordinance would now be completed.
    I would think that since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, the OT Shabbat service is also completed in Him.
    If God does want the Jewish believers to keep the parts of the law that are” everlasting,” (Passover as an example) it would seem we are still under the law, unless it is done as a memorial.

    I understand that to reach the Jewish people, you must be relatable to them (Saturday services) but adherence to these laws would contradict the freedom we have in Christ.

    As I am sure you know, there are some in Christianity that believe that God’s covenant with the Jewish people is over and the promises He made to them have been “replaced” by the “church”.

    (Replacement Theology)

    What do you think of Jonathan Bernis?

    PS. I know this is not really the place for this conversation.
    For the one born a Jew, it is confusing at times reading the OT’s “everlasting” commands and a personal responsibility to some of them?

  578. E

  579. I’m late on this discussion but I saw Hannah and Olivia and someone else talking about Rick Warren’s book. I was on staff at a CC. During my interview process in 2007, I was told by the #2 pastor at that CC (who was also interviewing me) that their problem with Purpose Driven Life is that it misleads people because it never deals with repentance and the blood of Christ (their words). He asked me about books I had read recently so I mentioned that book. I loved it and God spoke powerfully to me about ministry through that book so I was taken aback by what he said. He was really digging for information to see if I was worthy to work there and how easily I could be influenced. It seems to be a requirement to be dumb and robotic to be on staff at that CC. I started asking questions so I was promptly eliminated after a few years of working there.

  580. Hannah
    I think this is not the place for this conversation and quite frankly I am not on this site to argue the pros and cons of religion that is something you christians manage to do quite nicely without anyone else interfering-I am here to lend by support especially to anyone who have suffered for what ever reason under calvary chapel.I would think you have enough stuff going on in the states that you could sink your time and energy into that.

    My stand is this simply:
    I have not “coverted” I have simply recognised that Yeshua is my saviour and messiah.I have returned to the original church which we all should instead of playing games under baptist, catholic protestant or what ever banners.
    I believe the Word went out from here to the gentiles – that is the “original Word” and along the line you all managed to turn it something that Yeshua isnt even interested in.
    It all boils down to the fact that you follow the teaching of Yeshua and anything else is man made.
    While we are all arguing on who is right and whether this applys or doesnt apply millions still dont have Yeshua, are still dieing thru wars, famine, dictators etc etc and we should be all consentrating on that and not whether luther as apposed Calvin is right or wrong .
    I personally dont have time for it.

  581. It doesn’t surprise me that there are striking parallels between Calvary Chapelites and the Zen Buddhists insomuch as their naive willingness to submit to those whom they perceive to have some kind of special authority, leaders who have the least bit of indiscretion when it comes to social and spiritual responsibility to others– so-called “shepherds.”

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115613/zen-buddhist-sex-controversies-america-excerpt

    I’m sorry that this may be off topic for this blog subject string, but I saw some peculiar similarities with the Calvary self-appointed authorities who expect others to submit whole-heartedly to their “visions.”

  582. I think its right on topic Andy G- chuck smith and his merry men ran and still run calvary like a banana republic-dont like it – you get a bullet in the head.
    I think it is all summed up nicely by the audio “fatwa” that Alex gave us at the beginning of this thread. We all know no email was ever sent – you send a email-it doesnt go through- you find out the correct email. But why would chuck smith want to do that?
    Beter lie and try to cover it up.

    I think it was Churchill who said”You can fool some of the people all of the time” but you cant fool all of the people all of the time. Seems like you can at calvary.