Nov 302013
 
Paul Crouch, founder of Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), dead at 79.

Paul Crouch, founder of Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), dead at 79.

Paul Crouch, Televangelist and founder of Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), is dead at age 79.

According to PaulCrouch.com: “Dr. Paul F. Crouch passed into the presence of the Lord on November 30, 2013. We are grateful for the life of this amazing servant of God. Please pray for the Crouch family during this time.”

The scam-evangelist leaves a multi-million dollar empire consisting largely of his Trinity Broadcasting Network satellite television empire. Crouch was often criticized for his over-the-top fundraising efforts and was plagued my many scandals over the years, including a recent lawsuit by his granddaughter Brittany Koper. In the lawsuit, Koper alleges abuse of funds by using money given for charitable purposes being used instead to live a life of excess by Paul and Jan Crouch, Koper’s grandparents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119493/Private-jets-13-mansions-100-000-mobile-home-just-dogs-Televangelists-defrauded-tens-million-dollars-Christian-network.html

According to online sources, “Crouch was born in St. Joseph, Missouri, the son of Assemblies of God missionaries. Crouch, whose father died when he was seven years old, was mainly raised by his mother with the help of his grandparents. He soon became interested in amateur radio and announced he would use such technology to send the Gospel around the world.

Crouch…in 1973…with his wife, Jan, founded the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). In 1974, TBN purchased its first TV station, KLXA-TV (now KTBN-TV). Since then, TBN has grown to become the United States’ largest Christian television network, and the third largest group owner of broadcast TV stations in the U.S., with CBS, FOX, and NBC holding fourth, fifth and sixth place, according to TV News Check’s annual listing of the Top 30 Station Groups. Forbes.com indicated that Paul F. Crouch had compensation of $402,244 in the Fiscal Year ending on 12/31/08.

TBN is viewed globally on 70 satellites and over 18,000 TV and Cable affiliates. TBN is also seen on the internet globally. TBN is carried on over 287 television stations in the U.S. and on thousands of other cable television and satellite systems around the world in over 75 countries, where their programming is translated into over eleven languages.

In the US, TBN’s coverage grew through agreements with national cable operators. TBN is viewed on US satellite and cable subs, and affiliated with major cable and satellite companies such as Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, Verizon FIOS, DirecTV, AT&T, Dish Network and Charter.

In addition to TBN, Crouch and his wife developed and oversee operations for TBN’s affiliated television networks: Smile of a Child – children’s channel, JCTV – youth network, The Church Channel, TBN Enlace USA – Spanish language network, TBNE-Italian, The Healing Channel – Arabic language network, TBN-Russia, TBN Nejat TV – Persian-language channel, and TBN-HD, TBN’s new high definition network.

Crouch and the former Janice Bethany (Crouch) met in 1957 and married in Missouri. They have two sons, Paul Crouch Jr. and Matthew Crouch.”

 Posted by at 10:50 am

  254 Responses to “Paul Crouch TBN founder dead at 79”

  1. I have not agreed with everything that the Crouch family have done. Neither am I a huge fan of TBN. However, this article i very tacky and disrespectful. This man is a husband, father, grandfather, and friend. You should allow his family to grieve before offering your slanderous remarks. I found this article while googling about the death of Crouch. Your site has lost all credibility to me, because of your lack of Christian benevolence in a time of grief for a family.

  2. Good riddance! There should be a special place in Hell for him and all the clones he spawned and promoted.

    Sickeningly, he will be mourned as such a great man of God instead of the vomit inducing great man of fraud that he was. ‘Twill be Chuck Smith’s death circus repeated, only on a larger scale. Beyond disgusting and pukeworthy.

    The Crouches are the worst thing that ever happened to organized religion and they’ve had some HEAVY DUTY competition in that arena. Skrew them and the horse they rode in on. Well no, I got carried away there–pardon the horse as it was just another one of their innocent victims.

    Hope I didn’t mince any words. (Again, apologies to the steed)

  3. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 2 Tim 3:2

    I strongly support you telling the truth about Paul Crouch. Anyone who doesn’t like this article has never read 2 peter 2, which clearly states that the darkest corner of hell is reserved for any minister who uses his ministry as a means for financial gain. That describes Crouch and all of the other LlA prosperity preachers on TBN. Not a fan of false prophets myself, sorry!

  4. I completely agree with David Smith above. This article is extremely disappointing

  5. Sounds like he made a fortune off the ‘end times hysteria’ by promoting the ‘rapture is coming soon’, etc. like Hal Lindsey. He’s another one who has died it seems who truly believed he would see the ‘rapture’ in his lifetime, but he didn’t.

  6. Paul Crouch’s life was slanderous and an affront to the Good Jesus of the bible.

  7. And, it’s not “slander”…Crouch was a douchebag. He stole money from old people using Jesus to get them to give to his “ministry” and he lived like a King off their money.

    If Crouch was the real-deal, he’d have lived his life a lot more like the Good Jesus of the Gospels. He would have used that vast wealth to feed and clothe people instead of using his resources to constantly solicit the gullible for money.

  8. I am praying for the Crouch Family and the TBN Family that God begin the healing process after the lost of Mr. Paul Crouch. And to continue the TBN station.

  9. it sounds like all the ones that have something to say have their things together why have I not heard of them where there efforts to get the gospel out exactly there nobody until they know Christ

  10. “seek first the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness and the rest shall be added unto you “..Paul crouch was a wiseman…he served God and God made him filthy rich!You guys are sad!!!coz you work work work but hve nothing!!! Try truly serving God with all your heart!Imagine LIVING A RICH LIFE AND STILL GO TO HEAVEN!!! WOOOWWW!

  11. “He that is without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus said.

  12. I don’t understand why a man of God is giving people the finger?!?

    My Dad said that he might of had surgery but I think that he might be being sarcastic

  13. Perhaps a little harsh, but this isn’t strictly an obituary. It is a news item/commentary. Is anything gained by not reporting the wrongdoing of preachers and other religious leaders? Several years ago an editor of the Illinois Baptist news paper lost his job because he printed a story about the arrest of a well known Illinois Baptist pastor who was molesting tennage girls in his church. A large numbers of readers thought that he shouldn’t have printed the story. It was true and the preacher was convicted. The editor lost his job. Is this kind of nonsense pleasing to God? Relative to all of the facts available to them this site said very little good or bad about Crouch.

  14. I’m always amazed that these folks have all this power to heal, grant riches, etc., still die. But the more amazing thing is that folks like us still fall for their bull.

  15. When all is said and done, God is the final and righteous judge. May Paul Crouch soul rest in peace. Another soldier made it over.

  16. Okay everyone who is speaking ill of this man; shame on you. He maybe every vile thing you’ve stated but, he is no longer here to defend himself. For all those slamming a child of God, there is a special place for you also. Please have some respect for another persons passing!!!!

  17. Just a reminder…I know many of u speak with the conviction of your heart and the word you’ve been taught. I don’t wish to silence your voice because it is important to God and man to stand for what u believe in, trying to guide people in paths od righteousness for his Name sake. But the reminder…”don’t judge a matter before its time” there might be missing data that would change some of your conclusions. God will bring a all to light one day soon.

  18. The scriptures says there shall be a time of test and trials of our faith in the life of every Christains and the man of GOS Grandpa Paul Crouch had his own.Therefore we should celebrate the life,impact and legacy he has made in the body of Christ.

  19. The scriptures says there shall be a time of test and trials of our faith in the life of every Christains and the man of God Grandpa Paul Crouch had his own.Therefore we should celebrate the life,impact and legacy he has made in the body of Christ.

  20. Actually , Paul Crouch wasn’t giving anyone the finger. Many times I saw him explaining an order of things and I noticed that first he would raise each of his fingers one at a time, whereas most people keep each finger up. I had several teachers in school do the same thing. So the picture is taken out of full video context.

  21. We will miss Paul Thank God For Paul We love that Family God Bless You

  22. John chapter 8: verse:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

    2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

  23. Shame on you quoting the bible against someone you never met or know personally.pauls network taught alot of people about Jesus and gave people hope. So I’ll leave you with a cpl of quotes judge ye not lest ye be judged. Or let him without sin cast the first stone.

  24. well i now have Paul here in pits of hell,he seems to enjoy waltzing over hot coals the floggings,and scrourging and the application of his thorny crown…..”i feel just like jesus except it’s so fucking hot here i’m sure my ugly wife jans make up would run,but tammy faye she’s gotten used to it”…….. signed MR.SATAN

  25. j herron said, “So I’ll leave you with a cpl of quotes judge ye not lest ye be judged. Or let him without sin cast the first stone.”

    Well, since we’re going to toss around bible verses, how about:

    1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

    Proverbs 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

    1 Corinthians 5: 12-13 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

    Titus 1:10-11 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

    Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

  26. The reason I posted what I did was because everyone is condemning Paul for things he did. It is time we sweep around our own doorsteps and clean our own house before we start telling others things they need to clean up.

  27. Larry, big diff.

    Jesus was gracious and merciful to sinners, the adulterer, the prostitute, the tax collector the poor, the least of these.

    Jesus got royally pissed off at the Religious Leader hypocrites and money changers who made money off of selling God.

    Read the Gospels again.

    We are to judge a guy like Paul Crouch. He proclaimed himself as an emissary of God and some sort of minister/prophet on behalf of God, and nothing could be further from the truth. The guy used Jesus to make himself and his family rich. It’s wrong.

  28. F@#k TBN!!

  29. Alex,

    Only point of contention from me is that you just offended douchebags all over the globe by lumping Crouch in with them. I would say that he is more like Wormslime!

  30. is very sad see how this so call cristians judge another brother;; I WILLPRAY FOR ALLOF YOU BUT MR. PAUL CROUCH IS IN BEULA LAND HE IS NOT LONGER LONGLINES FOR BEULAHLAND

  31. SolRod, good point. My apologies to douchebags LOL.

  32. “You will know them by their fruit.” Jesus Christ

    One need not examine the motives or character of anyone who names the Name of God. Just look at their lives.

    He paid off a man he had a homosexual relationship with, and when the man broke the confidentially clause, Paul sued him for breach of contract. Stupid is as stupid does.

    He lived, promoted, and welcomed the so-called “Faith Teachers,” who have fleeced the gullible of the flock for years. Instead of promoting the Word of God, he allowed (and participated in) every damnable heresy known to man.

    There is the fruit. And, thus, the character of the man.

  33. I can’t put into words how disappointed I am over the negative comments regarding Paul Crouch. When he and Jan started TBN 40 years ago they did so because they knew this new technology of television was the best way to communicate the message of Jesus to a world that needed this news. They started with their own money and put their personal finances at risk by siging loans they weren’t sure they could ever pay back. Stations were build in countries that had never heard of Jesus, and that could not support a TV station. Long hours were spent and risks were taken because they believed in their calling. Did they overspend on themselves? Possibly. But all you critics tell me what you are doing to spread the gospel message. To try to tear down a man who put together a TV network that has reached millions around the world is despicable.

  34. Regardless of what he did or did not do his family is very sad right now. Can you all that are ragging on a deceased person at least consider that? You all are as far from perfect as anybody; however, when you die (and believe me you will) your will most likely feel sad at your passing inspite of your meaness, critical attitude, bitterness, anger and general dissatifaction with life when you were alive. The good thing is since you have not died yet you still have time to change and so do I. God Bless each one of you tremendously.

  35. My condolences to Jan Crouch and the TBN family…. Keep praising Lord God no matter what the Devil’s children say… they don’t know fiddly about God. How Jesus came and was killed, because he was talking about God’s Kingdom to come… The devil did not want you to know that… I salute Paul, and Jan for going out there without a shame, to ask for money to0 build the TBN and to have Gods voice on the TV… all over this World… Now we can say good work Paul… keep praying for this world and for all of us.. so that we will defeat the Devil and his armies… I know God is winning big time… Just think if the Devil would win… the whole life3 and existence would be nothing but torment for eternity… Thank You TBN, keep Broadcasting… we are almost there… Love Goodness,,… don’t give in , don’t care what the Devil’s children are saying… to them is all about money.. and material things.. if someone else is enjoying it.. they cry poverty… Love you all, May God Be with you all , and Bless you, and Bless all the God Loving people in this Universe… it will be a sweet ending someday… soon…
    MaryAnn

  36. Does God know your heart ?

  37. Paul’s problem with God is not so much his obvious robbery in the name of Jesus, many are guilty of this. Paul’s big problems is his propagation worldwide of false doctrine and False Prophets. The word of faith and prosperity doctrine never would have propagated if not for Paul Crouch and TBN . Big problem millions of people deceived ..

  38. You know when I lost several dozen people over the years, especially students that I knew for decades and were younger than grief. I had people, not many but prominent not give me even a second for me to grieve, if I ever even shed a tear it would have been. All you want is attention, your manipulative and so on. Or the other stuff of the were they saved? Were they saved? Did they know the Lord? Questions. I understand they were concerned but when you just watched a person you love die and then try to explain just maybe they are not burning in hell right at this moment to the Glory of a Holy God.

    I know several preachers that will preach a gospel message and if the person who passed was not a christian they will clearly say they are in hell and why. Some would even do an alter call or some other type of outreach right at the memorial service with or without the family’s knowledge. This was rare but it did happen. I can tell you that it was expected to get over it before you ever even had time to even weep. On my soul I will never do that again in a christian community, ever. It just costs way too much.

    So I dont get it, me and mine got jaded with no thought whatsoever as to how I felt, as a lay person I should not do that, feel that is. I dont get why Mr. Crouch gets a pass, when Hitches died there were people drooling to write about how he was writhing in pain with great joy and a sense of satisfaction. Same thing when Rick Warren’s son passed by some, not all I agree. Personally I hope the family of Paul Crouch finds peace, there were times I watched TBN late at night just for some music and scripture reading. Even though this is disgusting and I know I should be ashamed of myself, I even called their prayer line a few times. Thats another thing I wont ever do again if I can help it.

    I will disagree with one thing, Mr. Crouch did pass into the face of God, not because he earned it or even deserved that, it is because God is that big and we are that small. There was chastisement and correction and Mr. Crouch was restored.

  39. that picture is terrible. YOU are disgraceful….what about your parents.. what about you your kids…what about any of us. you must have no love or respect for JESUS. you need to repent… I think you would write something about anyone, because that is what you need to make you real good. I had a stroke a bit ago and realized calling people bad names is a curse, and will put YOU in hell….think about that… just YOU be GOOD..lest you go to hell…….have you not sinned? who are you that can say you have not sinned. did you take a pen, a penny, a book, etc…it IS a sin..and IF you no the bible..He will tell you anyone who lies, and steals…will go …?????? how much has anyone here given; things, money, food all the time to help others??? Let me ask this…how much do you think the President of the United States of America give from his pocket….how much “did” you give this year to the poor?? NO….Lets look at {me} FIRST…

  40. Well Brian that there was chastisement-thats for sure-whether there was correction and restoration and Crouch is sitting on a nice fluffy cloud strumming his harp remains to be seen.
    If it was that easy well we could all do what we damn well felt like doing couldn’t we????

  41. I will tell you one thing.These tele-evangelists and “podium preachers” are all about pomp and showmanship and milking the man in the street for all he’s got.
    It has absolutely nothing to to with climbing a mountain,preaching to five thousand and feeding them-giving people hope or faith and is as close to G-d as Australia is to Iceland

  42. to be consistent, which I am not, which is obvious I have to include everyone at the banquet. I dont see anyone sitting on a cloud, my view seems to lean more towards the beatific vision, which is very catholic.

  43. Sitting on a cloud or beatific vision I expect he is sitting on the finger he is waving against a backdrop of the old city of Jerusalem.
    Actually using Jerusalem where Pharisees and Sadducees cooked up their schemes should be telling us something.

  44. Monica.where the Frick is Beulaland????Is that near Uganda???

  45. @Kayla Woodrome thanks for the explanation

    I have been sitting at the table trying to count Paul’s way, however, I have encountered a problem when I get to my fourth(ring) finger I cannot raise it on its own in the manner that Paul Crouch does. I have never seen anyone count this way! I wonder how he managed to count if he had four points in his sermon!

    Could someone give me the link to this video so that I can see it for myself?

  46. As Price is Right’s Bob Barker used to say, “Too Bad”. Maybe that middle finger fit inside his giant honker the best and he’s trying to show everyone his little treasure of pleasure. Dig it? The granddaughter Brittany Koper is someone that feel I would probably like, or at least respect, on some level.

  47. “The reason I posted what I did was because everyone is condemning Paul for things he did. It is time we sweep around our own doorsteps and clean our own house before we start telling others things they need to clean up.”

    A good alternative to the plank comments…

    So we just allow all the Pastors out there who are “fleecing the sheep” to keep on doing it because we can’t call it out because we are all sinners??

    BTW, that reminds me.
    Jackie Alhor has a great book she published with the same title and the same subject.
    Highly recommend it.

  48. Correct Title: “The Fleecing of Christianity” by Jackie Alhor.

    The books focus is on televangelists.

  49. I am glad I was raised as a proper christian, and understand the true teachings of Jesus. Had I not, scam artists like Crouches would have turned me into an atheist. The obnoxious makeup of his wife reminds me of Tammy Faye Baker, as does the whole operation. 100% tasteless and tacky. On morons or the brain-dead would be sucked into their spider-web of sleaze and deceit. No apologies for my comment. It is the truth.

  50. Interesting that the “church” benevolence department –the one place someone should be able to go in need of shelter and assistance—does nothing for people in dire need other than to judge them by attempting to determine if they are “prodigal”.

    If they are prodigal, didn’t the Father have mercy??

    …just had an experience with this and am wondering where is all this $ is going that all these churches are collecting…when people are sacrificing their hard earned “God money” to give and tithe-thinking they are giving to the church to give to the needy.

    If the benevolence is judging to this degree (just had a situation yesterday where this wad the case)- then who exactly are they helping? And who decides what the criteria is? Are they playing God?

  51. So when a young adult, barely past her teens, who was part of the church, part of the school is homeless, because her parents put her out on her own since a teen, because they are mentally unable to take care of her and have substance abuse problems, and she is living off of others since this time, and the church she grew up in since she is 5 turns her away for help, because they believe she “needs to get right with God first” (without even meeting with her) what does that tell her about her megachurch, where the Pastor is living like a celebrity?

    Please pray for me as our family deals with this situation, and as the Lord reveals our financial and other responsibility in this situation.

    Thanks.

  52. Hannah, oh my, yes will pray for you, and this girl.

  53. Thank you so much Olivia!
    I have been up the last 3 nights since she “landed” on our doorstep.

    I plan on using this time to do some Bible study with her and know God brought her for a reason. But we have had some huge medical bills out of pocket recently for an injury I sustained 2 months ago, and with 2 kids in college….not really in a position to buy her a car.. which is what she really needs to be able to work and get her feet off the ground.

  54. I have no problem with calling out scammers and con artists, even on their grave.

    It’s sad for people that were close to him, assuming anyone was. Remember, he and his wife had “his” and “hers” mansions on opposite sides of the street, and Jan actually lived in a different house then her mansion most of the time. She and her wig collection was running some other gig.

    That someone died doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call out the con artist for what he was when he lived.

  55. Wow Hannah-will pray G-d will give you and your family spiritual,physical and tangible help to see this through.
    Isn’t this exactly what happens.These “mega ministries” spend millions on “playing” church and “real” assistance comes from those among us who possess the only thing that counts-a love and faith in our Lord and a desire to help our fellow man.
    How’s that empire you massed helping you now Crouch????

  56. The Overseas Students Mission and our global prayer team is interceding to the Lord for the Crouch family and the TBN ministries at this time. May the Lord Jesus Christ give them strength and wisdom regarding the future of the vast broadcasting empire Paul Crouch built. As for Paul, may he rest in peace as he awaits the judgement seat of Christ at which we will all soon stand. AMEN

  57. Nadav

    Thanks for the prayers.
    We really need wisdom.

  58. Nadav “will pray G-d will give you and your family spiritual,physical and tangible help to see this through.”

    It is ironic you mention “tangible”. My husband called this “man of God” in this ministry thinking he would be sympathetic and compassionate as we are in this situation knowing this ladies situation.
    He basically told us to give her a few days in our home then kick her out and give her money for a hotel! –treating her as if she is a JD. My husband at this point, having respected this man…well I think it just sealed the coffin on this particular church. (we were done with them years ago but still held out hope for a few of them.)

    He only seemed concerned about her relationship with Jesus.
    Not taking care of her physical needs.
    What good is telling someone who has no home or $ due to really no fault of their own being abandoned at 12 years old) that they just need to be right with God? (assuming they are not).

    Didn’t Jesus fulfill others physical needs??

  59. Bill Bray:

    Hey why don’t you get that student mission and your prayer team to start praying for Hannah and other people out there who are REALY trying to make a difference out there.
    I hardly think what ever happens to the future of TBN that the Crouch family will be worrying where their next meal is coming from.

  60. And screw the vast broadcasting empire.Did Jesus need a vast broadcasting empire to get His word across to people?

  61. This song just started playing in my mind”:
    Wonder if the Lord has a message…

    “If We Are The Body”-Casting Crowns

    It’s crowded in worship today
    As she slips in trying to fade into the faces
    The girl’s teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know
    Farther than they know

    But if we are the body
    Why aren’t His arms reaching?
    Why aren’t His hands healing?
    Why aren’t His words teaching?
    And if we are the body
    Why aren’t His feet going?
    Why is His love not showing them there is a way?
    There is a way

    A traveler is far away from home
    He sheds his coat and quietly sinks into the back row
    The weight of their judgemental glances
    Tells him that his chances are better out on the road

    Jesus payed much too high a price
    For us to pick and choose who should come
    And we are the body of Christ

    Jesus is the way

  62. If We Are The Body
    ——Casting Crowns

    It’s crowded in worship today
    As she slips in trying to fade into the faces
    The girl’s teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know
    Farther than they know

    But if we are the body
    Why aren’t His arms reaching?
    Why aren’t His hands healing?
    Why aren’t His words teaching?
    And if we are the body
    Why aren’t His feet going?
    Why is His love not showing them there is a way?
    There is a way

    A traveler is far away from home
    He sheds his coat and quietly sinks into the back row
    The weight of their judgmental glances
    Tells him that his chances are better out on the road

    But if we are the body
    Why aren’t His arms reaching?
    Why aren’t His hands healing?
    Why aren’t His words teaching?
    And if we are the body
    Why aren’t His feet going?
    Why is His love not showing them there is a way?
    There is a way

    Jesus paid much too high a price
    For us to pick and choose who should come
    And we are the body of Christ

    if we are the body
    Why aren’t His arms reaching?
    Why aren’t His hands healing?
    Why aren’t His words teaching?
    And if we are the body
    Why aren’t His feet going?
    Why is His love not showing them there is a way?
    There is a way

    if we are the body
    Why aren’t His arms reaching?
    Why aren’t His hands healing?
    Why aren’t His words teaching?
    And if we are the body
    Why aren’t His feet going?
    Why is His love not showing them there is a way?
    There is a way

    Jesus is the way

  63. Moderator please delete #63- Incomplete lyrics! Thx!!

  64. Hannah:

    I have some friends over tonight and you have just reduced most of us to tears.

    Its a message alright.
    Those “hands” are not “reaching,teaching or healing” because the “body” is extremely sick.
    Instead of that church telling you to kick the girl out after a few days (at your expense of course) they should be “reaching” out to this girl,”teaching”her how to help and assist her for the future and “healing”her so she can build a life.
    That’s their job not yours.
    Hope they are reading this and get the message.

  65. Yes Nadav- In the 3 1/2 years I have posted here, I have been careful not to give too much away in who I am. I use my middle name. I was afraid of them. That’s the control they have over those they shun and rid of…those trying to do right.

    Yes, I hope they are reading, but I suspect they may have no idea who is saying what and controlling what….they are just too big.
    I just deleted much more –I don’t want to let bitterness eat at me as I did for so many years.

    Many would say that if someone fell on your doorstep, it is your burden.
    All the years we were giving to our church we believed that those in need got help.
    I think most of it goes into the pockets of the 20 Pastors on staff.

  66. “Crouch and the former Janice Bethany (Crouch) met in 1957 and married in Missouri. They have two sons, Paul Crouch Jr. and Matthew Crouch.”

    According to his granddaughter Paul was not the father of Matt.

    http://obnoxioustv.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/tbn-drama-continues-jan-crouchs-granddaughter-busted-for-stealing-says-jan-was-a-church-whore-back-in-the-day-and-her-son-matt-is-not-pauls/

  67. Hannah
    We actually did a survey in Israel.
    Of the money given in donations and tithes over 85 percent goes on rents wages and living expenses,travel,public relations etc and a mere 15 percent on actual outreaches and aid.
    There are those who will argue that this is not correct but none are willing to open their financial records and prove it.

  68. Paul Crouch was a false teacher and allowed false teachers on his network. He did live beyond what a minister of the Gospel should. But when anyone dies we must be respectful. Is Paul in Heaven? Sometimes false teachers are in Heaven as long as they believe in the deity of Christ, and His saving work on the Cross. If Paul believed Jesus died for his sins and that only Jesus’ work on the Cross could save him then he is in Heaven no matter how many other weird doctrines he taught.

  69. Nadav-

    That sounds about right with 15% only in missions (maybe to pay for the airfares and nice hotels the missionaries on staff use.

    Most of the time, you have to individually support Missionaries at the Calvary Chapels.
    Go to the bulletin board, choose a family and give, independent of your tithe.

  70. Oh, a weal to do husband and wife I knew, made an appointment with the accountant when I told them the church will not reveal where their “Scholarship fund” $ goes.
    Sure enough they made an appointment, and he didn’t show. Someone else greeted them who knew nothing about why they were there.

    They never found out, and stopped giving to the scholarship-yet continue to keep bringing people to that church because they think that because of the Pastor, people get “saved” there, regardless of any other issues they have realized.

    That’s what many do there. Choose to turn their eyes from facing the truth in exchange for people being impressed by the environment of opulence there.

  71. I don’t think the question of whether Paul Crouch or Chuck Smith or Dave Hunt are in Heaven is in the least relevant to anything.

  72. “But when anyone dies we must be respectful.”

    Why?

  73. Vanpastorman:

    Like to know exactly what proof you have that “sometimes false teachers are in heaven”
    All Crouch had to do is believe Christ died for his sins and he could do what ever he wanted and still go to heaven???
    Well let’s just rape pillage and kill beats working nine till five-what the heck have I got to loose???

  74. “For all those slamming a child of God, there is a special place for you also.”

    That one pegged the irony meter…

  75. A statement posted online by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association called Crouch and his followers “longtime friends and supporters.”

  76. Doug said, “A statement posted online by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association called Crouch and his followers “longtime friends and supporters.””

    Typical. Christians* can’t call a spade a spade. What a crock from BGA.

  77. Maybe the devil arranged for him to have so many stations so that the whole world could see his strange, demented looking wife with a 2 foot pink wig on?

  78. Here is a man who said he would be glad to shoot Christians who disagreed with him. He told them he didn’t want to see their ugly faces, and more words that our Lord would never speak. He believed that Christians are little gods and was taking millions of Christians donations for ministry purposes and spending it on himself and his wife. He had a 49 million dollar jet and an 8 million dollar jet. His wife and him had his and her mansions that cost millions of dollars each. I think of the many people who gave sacrificially so this man could please his flesh and live luxuriously instead of using the money to reach the lost. His wife was party to all that as was Benny Hinn , Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and others in the TBN organization. Some would say that we are not to judge anyone, but a thorough study of the scripture tells me that we are rebuked for not judging since we are to judge angels. The Bible asks the question, Is there not any among you fit to judge? Do you not know we shall judge angels? If we are to judge angels, are we not then fit to judge men? Jesus taught that we shall know men by their fruit. Not fruit as in millions attending this man’s meeting over the years, but his whole attitude and demeanor toward those who opposed his extravagant spending on himself and his wife. The fact that he declared openly that doctrine was poo poo – or in other words of no significance when the Bible declares that we are to know our doctrine because in understanding it we can both save ourselves and those that hear us. There is so much about this man that causes me to fear his eternal welfare. Remember the scripture that says; “Some will say have we not cast out devils and done wondrous works in thy name but Jesus saith unto them depart from me ; I never knew you.” This could be the case for Paul Crouch.

    I noticed that someone here said that we should not bring out the truth about Paul Crouch in respect for his wife and family. His wife was party to his deception, His son was thrown out of the ministry for disagreeing with what was going on there and someone else close in his organization came out with accusations that Paul and Jan had siphoned $50 million for personal use from the ministry donations. Are we supposed to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that this never happened and then hold a glorious funeral for him and declare that he is now in Heaven with the Lord? I think not! Consider that these people in TBN could live in a much more conservative style and still get the job done. Does anyone honestly believe the Lord is pleased with this man’s extravagant spending of money that was given for ministry purposes. Can we justify his hatred for those who opposed him for what he was doing to the point that he wanted to shoot them and expressed that openly for the whole world to see? What has happened in the body of Christ that we would be so ready to defend a man whose life and character was so unlike the great apostles and disciples of scripture who lived in near poverty and gave their lives for their faith? The Bible makes it plain that we are to set our affections on things above, not on things of the earth. This man’s life is proof of where his affections were. I don’t say that in a judgmental way as some would think, but there is righteous judgment according to scripture, and this man lived a life that denied sacrificial living and scorned those who did.

  79. On VanPastorMan, I kind of liked some of what he said especially

    Sometimes false teachers are in Heaven as long as they believe in the deity of Christ, and His saving work on the Cross. If Paul believed Jesus died for his sins and that only Jesus’ work on the Cross could save him then he is in Heaven no matter how many other weird doctrines he taught.

    I think this very well could be the case. HOWEVER I do not think the way we look at heaven and eternity is all biblical, example Chuck Smith and Paul Crouch could very well be in heaven I hope they are, but their reign as leaders could very well have hit pay dirt, meaning their reward could be naked.

    As for Doug saying…
    I don’t think the question of whether Paul Crouch or Chuck Smith or Dave Hunt are in Heaven is in the least relevant to anything.

    Hmm, interesting point!!!

    And Doug again responding to this….
    But when anyone dies we must be respectful.”

    Why?

    I kinda hold that view in part because what difference does it make to them at this point. And if it is for the sake of followers or family, let the dead bury the dead or something like that, don’t ask me why I came up with that, it just came to me.

    Yes I have been a little heartbroken over the thought that Billy Graham must of heard many things about ministries like cs and pc etc etc and I am concerned he could have used his place in the body to first rebuke quietly this men of the cloth that go astray, as a Apostle Paul no doubt would have done, and yet there seems to be no evidence that he every did, hope I am wrong. Hope it is not go along to get along.

    Doug and Alex you guys are definitely “strong drink”.

  80. Nadav, another strong drink, lol! When the body is so sick maybe that is what is needed

  81. If we are waiting for thruth and honesty from the spiritual leaders of these mega-christian ministries we better not be holding our breaths.

    Small example:-

    When calvary tel Aviv were asked recently (I have the emails on record) what was their take on Bob Grenier and child abuse.I received the following email from Pat Apple,wife of senior pastor of cc tel Aviv.

    Quote

    “We are sorry,but we don’t know who Bob Grenier is.Of-course we believe child abuse is wrong”.

    Unquote

    The Apples are originally from Cc oceanside some 436 km from Visalia in the same state and you never heard of Bob Grenier????

    They like everyone else s covering their butts and watching the bank balance.

  82. There will be a lot of revelations coming forth about Mr. Crouch.

  83. “There will be a lot of revelations coming forth about Mr.Crouch”.

    You don’t say Brian.

  84. Actually it will be rather direct testimony because divine revelation is well I won’t post what I wanted to. I do think it is time we grow up as a species and stop delving into the modern priestcraft. If they want to play in the big sandbox, belly up to the bar, provide some evidence and well make your point. Pick any point, a literal fall, a literal flood, a literal tower of babel, a young earth, a denial of evolution, literal age of the earth / creation days, any support for their eschatology actually just one fact supported from an independent source for the many bazillion claims this group makes. They call me arrogant, I have never once claimed I speak for the Eternal God, not one time did I ever say I had all the answers and they have the gall to call me an atheist, shame on them. Put up or shut up is my plea. At least I admit I could be wrong.

  85. I ended up at this site following interesting links while researching news of grifter Crouch’s demise. I was reminded of being surprised recently (for about 15 seconds) to find statistics on the occupations in which practitioners score very high on tests which measure the traits of psychopathic personalities. Ministers come in at about number 8 on that list, right up there with politicians, lawyers, surgeons and CEOs.

    After reading many of the threads here concerning child abuse/molestation, church staff bullying and the like, I am convinced those statistics are accurate. Bob Grenier ticks off every trait on the inventory. The only way to deal with a psychopath is to cut off contact totally. They do not change, EVER. Get through this litigation folks and then, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES. Good luck! No amount of praying is gonna change these monsters.

  86. Stan, spot on…and soberingly true.

  87. Hey Stan

    I am proud of my being a psychopath. it took alot of time and money to gin up my qualifications as a lawyer and I fully expect to get the whole package for it.

    As to a minister getting rated as high as us is patently offensive and personally depressing. What gives a CC pastor the right to claim such a rating as you give me when they didn’t even have any post graduate education or even aN AA degree?

    Repent Stam of your conclusions with a chalise I will gladly send you for a $20 donation..shipping and handling not included.

    Alex, the only “spots” are in BSU’s record and with the Little Rascals.

  88. Sheck, LOL! Well, that explains it :-)

    Spuds are duds this year, but fortunately looks like Coach Pete isn’t bailing on us for USC’s greener pastures.

    In my experience, I’ve found most Lawyers to be more honorable than pastors fwiw.

  89. Sorry Jeff, but even with my lowly AA degree, I can discern that you fail the “superficial charm” portion of the psychopath test, but thanks for playing. LOL

  90. P.S. Psychopaths don’t get depressed, they’re just major carriers of the condition.

  91. If you take some time to investigate instead of read one article; you’ll find that the lawsuit was filed to mask the misappropriation of funds by the person who filed the lawsuit. The suit was dropped because it is illegal to file a suit with no proof. All of TBN’s funds are public for the viewing of anyone who wishes. Go to the website and check it out. TBN DOES feed the hungry and clothe those in need. Have any of you accusers ever really looked? Shame on you for spewing lies and not even checking for yourselves.

  92. Tamara, bullshit.

  93. I have an investigative reporter friend who has amassed quite a report on TBN and the Crouch’s.

    They may be able to out-lawyer the whistleblowers, but they are guilty as hell with regard to stealing money from those giving it “for Jesus!” and living the life of luxury and excess on other people’s money.

  94. Tamara, do you deny that the Crouch’s own mutli-million dollar mansions? Million-dollar jets? etc etc etc?

    How did they get all that money? They got it by soliciting gullible people for money with their “prosperity gospel” bullshit.

    Typical of the narcissist psychopath “pastors” to point the finger (through lawyers) back at the Whistleblowers in an effort to change the subject and defend the indefensible.

    If there is a God, if there is a hell (which there probably isn’t) then Paul Crouch is getting pitch fork up his ass by the devil this moment.

  95. May Jan Crouch get the fruit of her evil. May she meet a similar fate as her now deceased husband, may a cancer fall on the whole house of TBN. May it be taken out like the weekly trash and incinerated.

    “Judgment begins in the house of the Lord”–the bible.

  96. The New York Times documents the excesses:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/05/us/tbn-fight-offers-glimpse-inside-lavish-tv-ministry.html

    It may or may not be technically “legal”…but it sure as hell isn’t Moral and Righteous.

  97. How’s that for a reverse mind-f***k above? The bible says the Crouch’s will be zapped by God himself.

  98. Whats truely pathological is for anyone to have control over so much media, and a working knowledge of salvation, but spend most of their time fundraising….Instead of warning lost people of the predicament they are in re: sin and hell.

    I used to watch TBN, much as one might rubberneck while passing an auto accident.

  99. The only time I can recall Paul talking about hell was in reference to his critics. And it seemed too gleefully accusatory to be considered an actual warning, come to think of it.

  100. Crouch blazed the trail for a host of Charlatans. You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting some bible-pounding crook encouraging you to “give to The Lord” (translation: give
    to him/her), and God will lavish you with earthly riches.

    These parasites are worse than serial killers. At least serial killers don’t lay claim to piety as they commit their deeds.

    Scripture is rife with warnings about such as these. Too bad the only ones taken in by their snake oil pitches are the desperate and hopeless — which just compounds the evil that that these disciples of Satan commit.

  101. Paul and Jan will be accountable to God for all their wrong they done. Both the way they conducted their life & ministry. Pastors, evangelist, teachers all have to give account for the people they preach/share the Gospel to. Everybody needs to comeback to their first Love for the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and FEAR GOD. God is the only one in the end we have to give account to for our life, myself included, Lets stop pointing fingers and finding faults in other people whether dead/alive. Remember 4 fingers are pointing back at you. I am in no way saying they were right/wrong I just want to let God my/our judge. The Bible tells us not to judge, for God will judge be our judge, Please let the past be the past and start afresh, can’t turn back yesterday but Jesus can heal hearts and broken hearts & lives starting today. Let your heart not be troubled but let peace and joy fill your heart & mind today and always.

  102. First consider this a confession, I envied many of those people how they could just ask and get money. I personally asked for money from fellow Christians maybe 4 times in my 30+ years. Once I raised funds for a ministry I was involved in, another was for a ministry I supported. The other two times were for personal needs. Those last two were vile sins and I am ashamed. I did not get any money / help and I am grateful for that. If I raked in that kind of cash I would keep group homes open, pay for wheelchairs etc. They were just so brazen and proud, I mean to get a house or an airplane I cant imagine that. I had a dream onetime, and it is totally disgusting on my part, I dreamed I had a plane and I could bring support supplies on an airplane to troubled parts of the world. I had the dream after reading a story of a missionary who flew some dilapidated plane into some of the worst parts of the world. That reeks of pride and arrogance on my part or at least that is what I have been told from day one.

    I dont get this part of the Christian religion. I really dont. I wish I could. I will admit I want my piece of the pie, I would love to start a group home for at risk folks. What crouch pulled in in just one year would fund my dream for decades.

  103. Well as a EX WORD OF STRIFE ( Victory” christian” center ) Pastor that saw the REAL LIGHT of God’s AMAZING GRACE !!!!

    I will PRAY YES PRAY for all the Families of the Crouch Families/Friends and that they will SERVE YES SERVE the GOD OF GRACE and Not the Word of STRIFE/$$$ GOD !!!! that I hurt many People since 1982 and I ask for your FORGIVENESS and that we ALL SPEAK TRUTH and SEE OUR FRIENDS SAVED BY THE GOD OF GRACE and not the HEALTH/WEALTH CULT GOD !!!!!

    It’s a SHAME People get Mislead but Heh lets have GOD/JESUS OPEN OUR EYES Like My SELF and We PRAY that more of the WORD OF STRIFE “pastors,Leaders,Ministries WAKE-UP and SEE THE TRUTH !!!!!!

  104. You don’t know this man, you should repent for this slander, great men of GOD are always attacked by devil worshiping illuminazis like you, GOD knows where your at all the time, REPENT ! JERK ! This site sucks by the way and I hope everyone see’s through your lies and you go out of business for talking about this great man like that after he passed on to glory, SHAME ON YOU, you false teacher, GOD is a jealous GOD, you better be careful. This site is run by a slanderer and false teacher, all you people are being deceived by this jerk

  105. THIS SITE IS FULL OF HATEFULL ROCK THROWING FALSE TEACHERS, SHAME ON YOU ALL, GO TAKE A LOOK IN THE MIRROR, PAUL CROUCH WAS A SWEETHEART OF A GUY, AND YOUR ALL WORKING FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ILLUMINAZIS, GOD KNOWS WHERE YOU ALL LIVE AND YOU BETTER REPENT FOR ALL THIS SLANDEROUS GARBAGE ! REPENT AND SHAME ON YOU ALL ! AMEN ! JESUS IS LORD ! HA HA !

  106. jason, are you off your meds again?

  107. jason, actually the last guy that pulled the “touch not god’s anointed” crap on me came down with lung cancer a month later. He’s dead now. God seems to not like you guys doing that to us over here for some reason. Better watch out for falling houses.

  108. Now, if you’d like to try and make that a self-fulfilling prophecy, I’d be happy to draw you a map to one of my gun stores and you could try and go jihad for the Crouch’s…but I can guarantee you that wouldn’t turn out well for you either.

  109. Jason, just be quiet.

  110. Donna’s Comment: “Paul and Jan will be accountable to God for all their wrong they done. Both the way they conducted their life & ministry. Pastors, evangelist, teachers all have to give account for the people they preach/share the Gospel to. Everybody needs to comeback to their first Love for the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and FEAR GOD. God is the only one in the end we have to give account to for our life, myself included, Lets stop pointing fingers and finding faults in other people whether dead/alive. Remember 4 fingers are pointing back at you. I am in no way saying they were right/wrong I just want to let God my/our judge. The Bible tells us not to judge, for God will judge be our judge, Please let the past be the past and start afresh, can’t turn back yesterday but Jesus can heal hearts and broken hearts & lives starting today. Let your heart not be troubled but let peace and joy fill your heart & mind today and always.”

    I trust you are being sincere in stating the above, however, there is nothing biblical in what you shared. What you shared can be heard over and over again by those who have gone through treatment for addiction and or participate in the 12 step meetings. Please keep in mind the god of the 12 step is not the same God in the Bible. For God tells us that we are to judge those things concerning the church and we are to expose evil, not to participate in them and we are to call out those who teach false doctrines, as well as, what it is that is false about them. To do otherwise is being disobedient to the Lord and falling short of our own calling while putting or leaving or enabling the Church to be place in danger and those who think they are saved, but are not into eternal hell.

    Like I stated, it sounds as though you are being sincere, but please know you are sincerely in error. Read the Bible and check out the scriptures that have been quoted on this thread. You can begin with 1 Corinthians 5. Then do an online study concerning false teachers, and those who oppress, abuse, betrays, exploit using God’s name in the process of stealing money from the storehouse of what is to be used primarily for those in need. Not to exploit and live in the lap of luxury upon that was given out of a widow or widower mite. What more we are to be diligent in teaching the Word and not using it by twisting scripture to accommodate a lifestyle such as exhibited by the Crouches and others like them.

  111. Sheck- lol
    I suspect most out there haven’t been around 45 plus years ago to remember this.
    I was.

  112. Jason I have had those prayers prayed at me on several occasions. I dont wish to mock God but what I said about Mr. Crouch is true, what he raked in in one year would fund my dreams for decades. I also mean it I strangely admire him, he walked between the raindrops. I usually get hit by the buckets myself.

  113. Some of u must be new Christians or unaware of scripture. Or…u could be watching wrong television material or selecting wrong movies to go to. I say that because your language is questionable for born again believers. “Let no corrupt communicaation come out of your mouth”. Maybe some of you are hanging out with the wrong crowd. Or, your in the process of being traansformed in the image of Jesus Christ. It’s easy to forget the word if its not before us. I’ve read to much bad language in these comments. We just need to be reminded. It pleases God to have a clear and pure conversation.

  114. Theresa, no offense intended, you seem like a kind and good soul, but I personally don’t have a problem with what some consider crude language as it is just words. I read the bible front to back, especially the stuff most Christians* have never read, it fascinates me.

    Some of the crudest language I’ve heard is from the bible itself.

    My favorite verse is from Paul the Apostle when he is angry and addressing the Judaizers:

    Galatians 5:12 As for those who are agitating you, I wish they’d go the whole way and cut their testicles off!

    Another passage I love is Matthew 23. Jesus yells every name in the book at the hypocritical religious leaders of his day. Basically they were the cuss words of that day: “You snakes!” “You hypocrites!” “You FOOLS!” “You brood of vipers!” “you white-washed tombs!”…basically “you assholes!” “you douchebags!”…same meaning at heart.

    The “fools” is from the Greek “moroi” which is where we get “Morons!” Jesus called them “Morons!” LOL

  115. Teresa:
    The modern day equivalent of “you brood of vipers” would be “you sons of bitches”.
    Who ever wrote the words of the song “gentle Jesus meek and mild” should be shot.

    Interesting but our English translations of the Bible from the Greek,Aramaic or Hebrew quite condecendingly “tone it down”.
    Our middle class morality and sensibilities cannot handle the earthy reality of Jesus and those who originally wrote the scriptures.
    During my time volunteering in Rwanda I remember a believer commenting on my use of a four letter word as not what “good” people do.I pointed out that as we stood in a pile of bodies and waited for aid to arrive it should be the least of our ****king worries and with all the crap in this world it should be yours.
    We are living in a world

  116. Sorry
    We are living in a world that is rough and tough and that’s what Jesus requires to fight an enemy who is not particular how he wins.

  117. #113 “Please keep in mind the god of the 12 step is not the same God in the Bible.” There is no ‘god’ in the 12 steps. The 12 steps is open to all faiths. There are many Christians attending 12 step programs whose ‘god’ is Jesus Christ along with people of other faiths, and even ‘atheists’. The 12 steps does not define God. God is alive and well there and reaches out to addicts and alcoholics, etc.

  118. Nadav and Alex-

    I have to agree with Theresa.
    I have objected to the “F’ word being used by my kids.
    I think it’s a bad witness to their unbelieving friends.

    I don’t think the other words you used has the same sting.
    Maybe some of us older folks were around at a time when you just didn’t use it.

    Having a daughter that was bullied, I can say that words are a weapon, and can kill the soul.
    I had a father who called me “stupid” and “good for nothing”. They weren’t just words, they were ammunition.

  119. Sue-

    I have a friend who went to “Overeaters Anonymous”, knew nothing about Jesus, and found God there then ultimately Jesus.
    I also know someone who found Jesus when studying with a Jehovah’s witness. The true scriptures she read still planted seeds even though the theology was wrong.
    If God can use a donkey….

    One might say that where they went had nothing to do with Jesus, but in recognizing there is a higher power other than yourself for your life…maybe that’s the first “step”.

  120. Hannah

    I also wouldn’t like children to be subjected to the F word but we are hardly talking about children here.
    I am or will be in January 66 and believe me all these words have been around a very long time and used, and the Bible is no exception.
    I have been active in four wars in Israel,have volunteered as a paramedic in Rwanda in Kosovo in Sri Lanka after the tsunami and in Haiti,these are real life situations creating circumstances which thankfully most people don’t have to experience and unfortunately whether right or wrong I don’t have alot of patience for believers who get their knickers in a twist when they hear a four letter word.

  121. “I don’t have alot of patience for believers who get their knickers in a twist when they hear a four letter word”

    Don’t you think it affects your testimony to non-believers when you use the word in their presence?
    If it’s not good for a kid, why would it be good for anyone?
    Anyway, the word has a se+ual suggestion. So every time you are saying that particular word it’s an issue with that alone.

    I am just saying that the world is watching us as well as hearing us.
    Why even go there? Is it necessary? Is it so important? What about the respect for others in their presence that are offended by it?
    Don’t they matter?

  122. Hannah
    You have your opinion I have mine -you will never agree with me and I will never agree with you on the point-I think in this case you are naive,dated and you need to give unbelievers a lot more credit-they are not going to turn their backs on Jesus because I say a four letter word-equally give the youth of today alot more intelligence.
    By refusing to write the word “sexual” you turn it into something dirty and forbidden.
    No wonder hundreds of children of believers end up in trouble every year because their parents hide things from them.
    What are you going to do tomorrow,put a black line through every bad word in the Bible??

  123. I think as Christians we need to start getting our priorities right.whilst we are arguing on the use of a four letter word:-
    In the time it took me to write this sentence 4 children died from famine.
    21000 children die every day from wars and conflicts.
    Every hour six children die from abuse.

  124. Nadav,

    I’m loving your posts. I admire people who cut through the BS and tell it like it is. Someone upthread said that Alex, Doug G., and you were “strong drink” (meant as a compliment). I enjoy strong drink ;-)

    Welcome to the site!

  125. Nadav

    This goes beyond a 4 letter word and has progressed to disrespect and name calling.

    I did not write out the word because I have been told that if you write out certain words on your computer, it signals authorities.

    But here you have already judged me.
    You are also laying a guilt trip on me by saying that because I take offense at certain words, I am ignoring dying children.

    Wow, and for that you are praised by truthseeker.
    OK

  126. Okay…now that I’ve stopped laughing after reading your post, Hannah, I have to feel a little sorry for you. I mean that–yet I can’t stop laughing. Are you really that naive? Do you seriously think the internet police are going to come after you if you type the word sexual, or is that just a stupid excuse? An excuse so you can accuse Nadav of name calling, judging, disrespecting and laying a guilt trip on you?! All in one fell swoop no less :-) How do you, in your mind, get from point A to point B?

    Please take some time to educate yourself in this area. I’ll tell you how you can start. Go to a site called The Straight Dope .com who’s subtitle is “Fighting ignorance since 1973″, and in parenthesis they state “we didn’t know it would take so long”. That line also cracks me up every. single. time. I digress. Just type in your question. This is the type of site where you can ask such a question and they won’t think you’re yanking their chain. And no, Hannah, the site’s name has nothing to do with drugs–just in case you think typing the word dope is as bad as typing the word sexual.

    To set the record straight, I did not praise Nadav for the one comment of his above. I praised him for ALL the comments he has written since he recently started posting here. COLLECTIVELY. That’s right, I’ve liked everything he has written here so far. I feel the same way about G-man. They both have rare qualities, IMO.

    Now, I’m going to pour myself a glass of white wine which I will take with me as I go check to make sure all the doors of my home and garage and both yard gates are locked and deadbolted. Afterall, I’ve typed the words dope and sexual (twice) and the internet police may come a knocking on my door. LOL

  127. To all those who slander Paul Crouch,ask yourself: “Have I ever benefitted from watching TBN?”
    And have you also forgotten the scriptures that say,”Do not judge…
    “Remember also,”Things that cause people to sin are bound to come,but woe to that person through whom they come.”
    One thing,fellas…He did not come to make bad people good,He came to make dead people live.

  128. Hannah my dear-you know I have respect for you and I value and appreciate your posts-we learn from each other and get comfort and strength-but you have to get round the fact that some people will “call” it like it is.
    In all fairness I live in “a neck of the woods” where wars,terrorist attacks are a “norm”.our kids tend to grow up quick.
    Having said that I don’t apologise I will continue to “kick butt” for the Lord and enjoy it..

  129. I missed the news about Paul until today but its even sadder to hear how many don’t really know the Lord. On the other hand, I can understand their anger at us who do. We, including me,have been terrible witnesses and we have fallen from grace many times and caused this mess we are in now. I repent of my sin and I hope my fellow countrymen can forgive Paul and me. By the way, I cannot cast a stone much less a pebble at Paul. He’s done more than I could ever hope to do in my life.

  130. I don’t know what Bible everybody reads but my Bible says on judgment day Is when both the quick and the dead will be judged. That being said all the tbn TV preachers. Prophess that these are the end times right? We can agree on that can’t we? Well my Bible says that a new and strange doctrine will be taught and the prosperity gosple is the newest and strangest gosple isn’t it? Really not a part of the gosple at all! Its just man-made philosophy! They say Jesus was rich, he was dealing with big money while he was hear before ( oh he’s coming back)I can think of four times in the Bible that contradicts these teaching if they had BIG MONEY then why would the apostles have said we only have enough for a few fish and a couple loaves of bread twice ?they would have had the money in there pocket to pay the taxes and get it out of the fishes mouth wouldn’t they? And if Jesus and the apostles were handling BIG MONEY Judas would have never sold out Jesus for thirty pieces of silver would he?

  131. Here’s the truth JESUS was the richest man to ever walk the earth in his spirit and faith not MONEY! Now a little on the here after my Bible says we all live forever don’t yours? Some will live in Hell and some in Heaven ME I CHOOSE JESUS AND HEAVEN THANK YOU LORD!

  132. Hannah & Nadav – perhaps you are both right! Here in the US where we are not experiencing war on our ‘turf’ and there aren’t ‘genocides’ going on like what happened in Rwanda, it seems out of line to use the f— word because there is no ‘real’ reason to. But if all of a sudden we were bombed,etc. or something like that, perhaps saying ‘f—‘ might seem appropriate and would be the least of our worries i imagine!

  133. Its it he least of our worries Sue but it sure relieves the tension -LOL

  134. Sorry
    Its not the least of our worries Sue but it sure relieves the tension-LOL

  135. Your opinion of the Paul and Jan means nothing! You who are without sin throw the first stone! You don’t know them personally,you have no idea how many people have come to know Christ because of their ministry.You need to read your bible,David (who is called a man after God’s own heart) killed to cover up his affair,and Moses killed out of anger.We all know that the only sinless one is Jesus! That’s why we only have salvation through Him.I thank God for TBN! My husband and I both came to know Christ because of this ministry.

  136. I have never been a donor or an enthusiast of the Crouches but I’m sorry. The photoshop picture you did and this article is in bad taste at this time. Get the log out of your eye so you can see the speck in your brother’s eye please.

  137. Alex

    At least you are showing the actual verses so that people can look them up and can just mouse over them. They can also then read them in context. That gives you some credibility. You are admitting that you are putting your own slant and translation on those verses, so I will give you that much. Thank you

  138. I live in France (Europe in general) where there are very few churches and even to
    get a bible is not simple because there are little resources for Christians.

    Finding TBN on satellite TV was a great blessing. Whether he was true or evil
    is up to God to judge — and we are prohibited to judge, much less pass condemnation.
    The same verdict we pass will be passed unto us, Jesus said it clearly.

    I thank the Lord for the service Dr. Crouch and TBN provided me in times of
    great distress. It was and is a means of Providence to reach many through-out
    the World. And if someone uses the riches of the Kingdom for their own personal
    benefit, he or she will have to give account to the Lord. Can we honestly say
    we are without any blame, so as to be able to judge others? No.

    That photo is an insult to us viewers as wells as to the man, since he had some
    fingers paralyzed and could not stretch them.

  139. may the lord forgive all of you ..he has benn a good man of God and i know he is in heaven with jesus our master ..and plz repent 4 all those evil words and plz run your our race and check weather u are stel in faith as the bible sayz

  140. Paul Grouch was a con man. His type gives evangelists a bad name.

  141. I remember years ago when I used to watch mainstream TV “Preachers” & Paul made the New Age statement that “We are ALL little gods”. That comment inspired me to get into New Age Witchcraft, thanks Paul. Better yet, thank you Lord & Savior Jesus Christ for saving me from the occult bondage to the devil. All that I can say is, I hope & pray that Paul didn’t lead multitudes (or 1!) of people to hell & I pray that he truly repented the satanic garbage that flew so effortlessly out of his mouth.

  142. Luiz Cesar:

    Luis my brother you do not say where you are living in France-but even if its a village perched in the Alps you can download a bible-since you sent this I figure you have internet-also thru that same marvelous system you will find umpteen ministries that will send you as many bibles as you want FREE.
    There are 40,000 churches in France not including messianic even 3 calvary chapels and the rest of Europe s not without its share of places of worship.
    I am happy you found Christ thru TBN at least a little of the money they squandered on mansions etc went to good use.

  143. “Get the log out of your eye so you can see the speck in your brothers”

    Well at least “Gods own”, “pr ssozi” “misa” and others know that part of scripture very well and thank you for reminding me.I am always mindful that I am a sinner but before you accuse me and those like-minded you could get down to ACTUALLY reading ALL of the Bible.You would perhaps be surprised to find many instances where it is permissible to question the acts of others.
    Alex,G-d bless him takes the time to back up his arguments with scripture .Since you all enjoy pointing out what the bible says about people like me I figure you can go ahead and look for them yourself at least your time will be better occupied.
    Paul Crouch and his like amassed a personal wealth of houses etc etc on the hard earned money from many people who were lost alone and thought he was the best thing since sliced bread.
    Were you born stupid or did you complete the course at university??

  144. It’s my understanding these were the people teaching that we become gods (like the mormons teach) and when CRI exposed it, and played the recordings of them saying it on the radio on “Bible Answer Man,” Hank was heartily criticised by the church folks for exposing it, even though the Bible says to expose false teachings for what they are, to protect the sheep. Also others on their station were teaching this heresy, as well, hard core, not to mention the name it and claim it garbage played on there. I couldn’t stomach it a long time ago and never turned it on again.

    I’m praying that whoever takes over their station would bring it over to a true teaching station and really use it for God’s glory rather than greed and false teachings. Think of all the new believers and those not grounded in the word that could be taken in by false teachings if their souls are not cared for.

  145. Amen Cathryn-its exactly the new believers and people ignorant that these stations target-not everything that uses G-ds name comes from G-d.

  146. Well, years ago John Warwick Montgomery was on the show discussing the Resurrection it was one of the few worthwhile shows on TBN. There was Hugh Ross’s show on there in the 1990’s. Jan is still alive I think that once it goes to Matthew the shows on TBN might not be as bad as they are currently. Their granddaughter sued them. Paul Jr’s daughter.

  147. Well, anyways, I think evangelicals and mainline Protestants need to changes some of their ways. I think some of you who want to go to eastern orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism they have some of their strange theories as well such as aerial Toll houses for the Orthodox. You have demons that tried to prevent you in your journey to Heaven. I agree its a bit Gnostic for me.

  148. Paul and Jan were kind of funny in a way even with their bad theology. She really overtake the makeup. Paul and Jan made big bucks that one of their places were in Newport Beach.

  149. Well, Walter Martin told Paul and Jan off too on their show and Paul did that you can’t touch the Lord anointed In fact I remember the Italian station going up in the 1980s’ because Paul mention about Constantine and the edict of Milan,

  150. Got to love Jan’s dogs though, they are cute.

  151. Well, talking about Black Churches in one of those articles, Orange County doesn’t have many blacks, most Asian groups like Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese out number the blacks there. I use to noticed a lot of blacks at TBN headquarters they must have been from Los Angeles County or the Inland Empire.

  152. One last thing maybe if Jan doesn’t live too much longer, a Chinese investor will buy up the Crouches house. Not kidding Chinese are buying up lots of real estate in California, How fun.

  153. Some bishops and theologians of the Orthodox Christian Church consider this teaching controversial—even false. They argue that it is a form of gnosticism, or neo-gnosticism, and claim that the teaching is opposed to the church’s catechism and other Orthodox teachings.[2] Critics of the teaching, such as Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul, argue that the teaching has only one main contemporary proponent: Fr. Seraphim Rose, an American Orthodox hieromonk and theologian who wrote a pro-toll house book on this subject entitled The Soul After Death. While Fr. Seraphim endeavored to demonstrate that this teaching is derived from Patristic and other church sources, his opponents—among them Rev. Azkoul and Archbishop Lazar Puhalo (a hierarch in the Orthodox Church of America) —found his conclusions questionable.[7] Moreover, opponents of this teaching argue that it emphasizes fear and guilt as a way of keeping believers “in line”, while ignoring the forgiveness of Jesus Christ—who, according to Orthodox Christian teaching, came to earth to save the world and humanity when they least deserved it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_toll_house

  154. Many prosperity doctrine organizations essentially believe the following:

    – We are financially successful because God is blessing this righteous ministry

    When in reality it looks more like this:

    – In spite of your fleecing of old ladies ‘mites’, and living like kings in mansions while robbing from God, the Holy Spirit has spoken through your evil medium to save the lost.

    Lastly, the Bible identifies who is the giver of financials success:

    “Then satan took Jesus upon a high mountaintop and showed him all the riches & glories of the world and he said ‘bow and worship me, and all you see shall be yours, for they are mine to give to whom I choose’.”

    For the life of me, I can’t understand why churches think financial success is a blessing from the God of the bible. Also, Jesus doesn’t need money.

  155. “Lastly, the Bible identifies who is the giver of financials success:”

    Deu. ch 8 v 18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth…

    Ps. ch 112 v 3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

    Ec. ch 5 v 19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

    Want more???

  156. The real question we need to think about is why does G-d give us this wealth?
    To build large mansions?To live in the lap of luxury?
    G-d entrusts us with money as a test.The way you handle money shows G-d what your character is.Whether your character reflects G-d or reflects greed.
    Hudson Taylor the missionary statesman said
    Quote
    “Let usgive up our work,our plans,ourselves,our lives,our loved ones,our influence,our rights into G-ds hands and then,when we have given all to Him there will be nothing left to be troubled about”.

    Loosely translated for the benefit of the Crouch clan.Give up your planes,mansions,pink wigs,cars and start spending all that surplus cash on what G-d intended you to spend it on.

    I have seen church plants and outreaches come and go in Israel because of bad stewardship and management and the only people who suffer in the end are those who need the Lord.

  157. Here is my morning question to Alex,
    Back in the day I used to accuse you of being off your meds (which i think is still valid) and I would say I was going to contact the Idaho version of ATF and report you.

    On 3 separate occasions, you threatened offline to sue me and you whined and cried how that would be harming your family etc.

    How is what you are proposing to do (on yesterday’s PP) any different?

    btw, Michael moderated this question at the PP

  158. MLD Your comment to Alex on the other blog was out of order when you made reference to his mother. Now you bring the same mindset over here, to do what? In God’s name, what is it that you hope to accomplish.

    Much of what Alex shared on the other blog has merit and substance, yet it is only due to no one wanting to stand beside him and fight the good fight to expose these things to bring about repentance and reconciliation within CC, that a gang up goes on and like yourself distract by saying the most viscious of things to supposedly make him appear to be a fool. Yet it is those who stand passively by flapping their lips to bully while ignoring some very serious things that needs to be exposed to all concern who are playing the fool.

    Just as we came together to provoke action to free Saeed Abedeni, are we then to say that we are not to be held responsible to also call to an account those within CC those things that continues to be perpetrated upon the body of Christ? Is it only when a pastor is in need to be heard and seen that our eyes and ears can do this. But when it is one who has been oppressed, beaten, abuse, molested, raped, betrayed, bullied cries out for others to speak up as well, that we then call them a madman, such as you have done with Alex.

    I’m sorry, but as much as we rally to support a CC Pastor, we ought also rally and demand church discipline and a change in whatever enables such atrocities committed against those who have been victimized and then bullied to silence them. In the way you speak to and about and around Alex, it sounds as though you condone the corruption and abuses that are and have been reported about CC. At best, this is most grievious to the Holy Spirit and at worse, it is an affront to that which Jesus has told us to confront when such is being permitted within the church body and its leadership.

    In a very large way, it comes across at being double minded and being a respector of persons. Yet, to the least of these, Jesus is quite serious when He tells us, YOU have done it also unto me.

  159. Linda,
    “yet it is only due to no one wanting to stand beside him and fight the good fight to expose these things to bring about repentance and reconciliation within CC,”

    Alex brags that he has 10s of thousands who support him.
    I suggested to him yesterday that he find 100 who will call the 5 pastors who make up the central CA CC tribunal everyday for 2 weeks to clog up the phone lines in protest – he blew it off.

  160. MLD, you know the difference, we’ve gone over it before.

    There is a far cry between you making a false report to the ATF (which is illegal) in an attempt to harm me and my family and me warning the public about documented public information and allegations and facts and opinions regarding a very public entity that recruits people to give them and trust them for spiritual advice i.e. Institution of Trust and public figure Pastors i.e. Positions of Trust.

    What you have now done twice, is publicly state you are going to break a law and publicly threaten me with illegal action which Idaho has criminal libel statutes on the books which Bob Grenier appealed to…the State Prosecutor here examined the charges, detectives interviewed me, reviewed the blog, interviewed Paul and decided not to bring charges.

    I also warned you that you are taking a risk when you make false statements about a non-public figure and even public figures can sue, as exampled by my being sued. I have the goods and didn’t violate any laws and will win and my Cause is greater than the public figure in question and for the public good regarding issues of serious public interest.

    Your stated and documented statements above are a different animal.

  161. MLD said, “I suggested to him yesterday that he find 100 who will call the 5 pastors who make up the central CA CC tribunal everyday for 2 weeks to clog up the phone lines in protest – he blew it off.”

    Incorrect as usual, I said that there is a better way to approach this and that the issue is not Bob Grenier, he is simply a microcosm of a larger Problem in Calvary Chapel. The Cause is about cult-like dynamics being established by Calvary Chapel and reinforced through word, deed, example and inaction.

    The Cause is about a Church Brand that tolerates abuse and corruption, yet sucks unknowing “sheep” into its pews by touting itself as “specially anointed” and “righteous” and “bible believing” and “good” and “trustworthy” etc etc and that they have the answers to life’s problems and should be followed and trusted and given money to etc.

    The Cause is about creating awareness that there are serious cult-like problems in Calvary Chapel and no one takes any responsibility unless it’s something like a doctrinal difference or one CC violates the territory of another etc.

  162. The Campaign I am developing will do far more than calling a few of the CC “Oversight” committee guys.

    It will be hyper-local and will touch every “official” CC Affiliate, eventually.

    We’ll work on one or a few at a time throughout the year and educate their local area about the other side of the Calvary Chapel story and situation…the parts that Calvary Chapel doesn’t tell you when they are wooing you into their fold.

  163. But the person you mentioned was Steve Wright and you have nothing … so what’s the diff?

  164. “the parts that Calvary Chapel doesn’t tell you when they are wooing you into their fold.”

    Funny, I have never seen an ad soliciting attendance at a CC – perhaps they have a yellow pages ad.

    I find that it is one individual who invites a friend. Perhaps you should expose the attendees for wooing people in. :-)

  165. Bob Grenier can come or go, that is of no consequence, the larger Problem is that Calvary Chapel promotes a culture of abuse by its doctrine, teaching, example, practice and what it makes huge efforts towards while ignoring and not addressing other areas in its “Church” Group at large.

    Bob Grenier is simply a Symptom of Calvary Chapel’s cult-like dynamics, Calvary Chapel’s construct and zero accountability and bad “affiliation” practices and bad doctrine in some areas regarding pastoral “special anointing” and sole power/authority, financial opacity, teachings that can lead to child abuse and/or spousal abuse etc are the Disease.

  166. So write your congressman – that’s what led up to the finale at Jonestown.

  167. MLD, you are asserting that Calvary Chapel doesn’t advertise in local communities? Doesn’t have websites? Crusades? Events? Doesn’t have a presence in politics? Wow, you miss a lot.

    Books, conferences, dvds, websites, radio programs, etc etc all proselytizing and recruiting folks to Calvary Chapel. There’s a ton of it, not sure how you’ve missed it.

  168. I think I’ll stick with the Campaign strategy that will be fleshed out in time for 2014.

  169. MLD—I was making reference to those you have joined with on the other blog to silence Alex throuh a process on name calling and bullying tactics–none which is of the Lord. Also, as for making references towards one’s faith, if it is not scriptural, but it is okay for that person who is taking offense to such reference is also participating silencing and bullying Alex, then plays the victim—-sounds like kissin cousins to CC shannigans to me.

    The whole point is that where you could have written a letter just as well as those who are more closely affiliated with CC could have spoken directly to CC–you remained silent instead—–using the excuse it had nothing to do with your own backyard. Really, and just who is the church? And why let a Pastor only affiliation stop anyone? Jesus certainly didn’t and neither did anyone else who stood boldly to speak truth into the lives of those who were practicing corruption and perpetrating such wickedness calling themselves to be the voice of God.

    Your challenge to Alex was unwarranted and not the heart of the Lord whatsoever. It was just you way to join in with the others who choose to be passive while giving an excuse and discounting Alex’s comments as being rants, rather than to acknowledge and putting feet to what you all say while professing a faith in Jesus, but without the discomfort of having to step up to the plate and actually sharing in that which may be uncomfrotable to do, but never the less are called to do when you have the knowledge and awareness that such are being reported to being perpetrated. You did for Saeed, why not for Alex? Too close to home—or are you just guilty of these things yourselves—makes no sense to me when men stand by and let evil reign with the church. But will distract and focus more upon the things outside the church and then act out they are accomplishing something.

  170. “Books, conferences, dvds, websites, radio programs, etc etc all proselytizing and recruiting folks to Calvary Chapel. There’s a ton of it, not sure how you’ve missed it.”

    100% aimed at the choir

    I am going to Target later today, I will see how many of those items are on the shelves to the open public.

  171. “100% aimed at the choir”

    Not true. Not according to Calvary Chapel, they aim their message at “the lost” etc. according to them.

  172. MLD, you can’t fool Linda. She’s a licensed credentialed professional and deals with people all the time. Her opinion carries a lot more weight to me than yours. She’s right about a lot of things and makes critiques of me often (especially my crudeness and language, all valid critiques) but she also knows I am generally a counter-puncher and I attack Ideas and Institutions vs. you who generally initiate the personal attacks and then others in the small core group over there pile on.

  173. The lost who are already sitting in the pews after being wooed in by a friend who invited them.

    If their products were really for ‘the lost’, I should be able to find an aisle full of their stuff at Target – where the lost hang out. The lost don’t hang out at CC bookstores.

  174. Restating:

    “makes no sense to me when men stand by and let evil reign within the church. But will distract and focus more upon the things outside the church and then act as if they are accomplishing something.

    In fact, what men and women stand by and say nothing they are permitting evil to reign, to fester, and to bring much harm upon the body of Christ—-the blog answer to this—just leave CC. Humph, now that’s the love of Lord reigning in all of you—but then those in your little group say something to the affect that “people who stay have a mental problem.” Well, that certainly enables you to keep your hand from writing a letter, doesn’t it. One excuse after another isn’t it. You may profess Christ and get all wrap up in your theological arguments and postiions and tracditions, but sadly not one of you have shown a willingness or a conviction to get your hands dirty by actually jumping in the ditches to make a difference in addressing and pricking the conscience of CC leadership to repent and make right the abuses and corruption they have enabled due to the many issues that Alex and others have taken the time out, while enduring such insults flung at him, which by the way is nothing more than re-victimizing him, and then when he attempts to counter you, you cry wolf and make it all about MN being injured, thus getting MN to come to your assistance, because you also feel as though you have been victimized as result of Alex’s persistence in trying and trying to get through to you all. The bottom line is that you really could care less and resent Alex for his attempts to speak truth into your lives and provoking you to get ut of your comfort zone and actually do something than what is safe and comfortable. Just think what could be accomplished if you and this small group would change your attitude and direction with Alex concerning these things. You did it with Saeed—-why not with Alex?

  175. MLD
    What exactly is your problem???
    You have had your little say and you even have people reading your posts in Israel which for you must be the event of the year..Now run along and take a long walk off a short jetty.

    If you want to do something constructive for the first time in your life YOU get in touch with the 5 pastors of CA CC and ask them why they don’t deal with the corruption and mess in Calvary.
    Incidently Alex has only to ask and there are enough people here in Israel who would deem it a blessing to clog up calvarys fricking phones but you see sunshine from where I am standing he is a better man.

  176. One thing for sure, I have never made an appeal about MN being injured or being a victim. MN throws out the red meat with the best of them. I get moderated over at the PP.

    I have yet to see where Alex has earned the right to speak truth into my life.

    Alex is the one bragging that he has 10s of thousands of supporters – he does not need to come to the PP to recruit help. He brags he has 6 million readers – that should be quite the pool to draw from.

  177. nadav,.
    “Now run along and take a long walk off a short jetty.”

    Wow! wishing death on me the first time we meet.

    “If you want to do something constructive for the first time in your life”

    You know nothing of my life

    You represent Israel very well.

  178. PP has CC pastors and readers and it’s one of many platforms to address the issues.

    Also, I was personally recruited by Michael and invited over the PP and became part of that community, similar to being recruited and invited by a Calvary Chapel.

    Strange, MLD, that your answer is similar to what you and others at PP critique about CC’s recourse: “There’s the door!”

  179. Nadav, i’ll give you a synopsis of MLD:

    Former Jew, then Calvary Chapel, was part of the CC that got the Corporate Takeover from Skip Heitzig.

    He left CC and became Lutheran, the conservative branch, not the liberal one.

    He’s in his 60’s, is in real estate in Southern California, married with grown kids (his wife is actually attractive, him, not so much) and he’s a big Dodgers’ fan.

    He’s buddies with Steve Wright of CC Lake Elsinore and has coffee with him and they talk theology/religion.

    MLD likes to stir the pot. He’s got a pretty solid handle on conservative Lutheran theology, but he has a bizarre “Prosthetic Arms” analogy that tries to overcome the Synergism inconsistency inherent in his professed Belief System.

    I have gone round and round with him over the years and usually make him look foolish so he doesn’t like me very much which usually results in him making personal attacks, to which I respond in kind.

    He’s somewhat bright, but his recall is spotty and while he has a good grasp of his particular angle, he has a very loose grasp of logic/reason and other philosophical positions. He’s about a 6 on the intelligence meter and about an 8 on the troll meter.

  180. I don’t critique CC methods or recourse. I left over theological issues.

  181. MLD
    Well now we’ve hit the nail on the head another “holier than thou” wife wears the trousers .
    Oh my because I have told you to get a life you accuse me of wanting you dead.
    You see that doesn’t work sunshine pastors who abuse their authority talk the talk and don’t walk the walk are as G-d says “better that they were never born” and people who defend them need to also get their act into gear.
    As for representing Israel – we fear the Lord but don’t suffer fools.
    I love you brother but you are a fricking idiot and I pray the Lord will kick some sense into you.
    Don’t hitch your horse to their wagon they can dig their own hole without your help.

  182. “Oh my because I have told you to get a life you accuse me of wanting you dead.”

    no, you told me to jump off the jetty.

  183. Actually most Israelis do not fear the lord. Most are atheists and those who do believe in god believe in a false god.

    If they really feared the lord they would be christians.

  184. Nadav, your 185–have you read it? You love him but call him a frickin’ idiot? Doesn’t sound like you have any idea about love. Before responding, read it again and again. How does that sound like love? I think you are dishonest…

  185. MLD
    Former Jew is it?? Well,well you seem to have lost a lot of your heritage on your way from Jew to calvary to Lutheran.Bit of the pharisee still in you.
    The fair play,the fear of G-d,our tradition of standing with those who have suffered and for those of us who believe in Yeshua who spent His life on this earth as a Jew we should try and live our lives as an example to show to gentiles and non-believers.
    I pity you man when I see which way your life is going.You’ve let the side down big time.
    I believe G-d got you to write your rubbish today so that you can see what a mess you are in and that myself and others can pray for you and help you get on the right track again.
    We all have gifts brother and yours are going rapidly down the toilet at the present time.

  186. MLD
    “Most Israeliis are atheists and follow a false god”???????????
    I would like you to repeat that in Israel on a shabbat at the wailing wall and see if you make it back to the states in one piece.
    However I believe I have your number small man-smaller mind.
    Will pray for you sunshine -G-d knows you need all the help you can get.

  187. nadav,
    And what percentage of the Israeli population is at the wailing wall on any given shabbat. The muslims think they fear god also… but they too have a false god and they would beat me up also if I said that to them – so what’s your point?

    Look, the one true God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    Walk up and down your street and question people if they believe Jesus Christ is God. If the say no, then who the hell are they worshiping as God?

    I am the only non Jew in my family – i know that me and my relatives do not worship the same God. I tell them Jesus Christ is God and they tell me I am wrong.

    Give it a try

  188. MLD
    You know I told myself I wasn’t going to answer anymore of your posts firstly because its 20 minutes to midnight in Israel and I have a life even if you don’t but I wonder when was the last time you walked up and down the seafront in tel Aviv you might be very surprised.
    The average Israeli is fed up with the orthodox stranglehold on religion and is quite open to talk and receive the new testament.
    Your own Immanuel Lutheran church in Jaffa is open during the weeks to groups and the book most asked for is the new testament.don’t believe me?contact them.pastor Rasmussen would be pleased to help you and tell you of his Jewish congregation and the service he conducts in Hebrew (not bad for a danish Lutheran)
    The growth of messianic congregations has doubled in recent years.
    The biggest stumbling block is not whether Jesus is G-d its the history of persecution of Jews by Christians thru the ages(crusaders etc).
    Incidently if you were Jewish you still are so get over it and use it to your advantage.
    Another stumbling block is ill equipped evangelists who come over here without the language or mission training.
    I DO GIVE IT a try maybe you should stop wasting your time and come out here too and give it a try-the harvest is great and the workers are few but get rid of that fear of inadequacy first.

  189. nadav,
    My mission field as it relates to Jews is the family.

    Messianic congregations are usually mixed up crack pots. I don’t keep one foot in each world. I went Jesus all they way.

    But i still ask you, if Jesus Christ is not their God and if Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not their God – who is their God.

  190. There are more Jews in my area than in Israel – perhaps you should come try the harvest fields here. :-)

  191. Fun old things on the internet, Walter Martin in 1953 in New York on the Bride and Groom Show where Rev. Martin marries his brother in law on you tube. John Warwick Montgomery I used to listen in the radio in the early 1980’s on his show Christianity on Trial. At Martin’s bible history at Meloyland I waited for Martin after the bible study and he was kind of gruff like a stereotype New Yorker but John Warwick Montgomery was nicer. Why I bring this up because Martin and Montgomery were once on Paul’s show and Martin told him where he had bad theology that is Paul Crouch.

  192. Seriously:

    Jesus called the pharisees “fools” “hypocrites””generation of vipers”
    Did that mean Jesus didn’t love them?Did it mean Jesus didn’t die for their sins too?
    You can love someone Seriously you don’t have to love what they do.
    Really I don’t know. Why I bother sometimes-some peoples brand of religion went out with the ark.

  193. Nadav, just like Paul wrote, without love you are just making noise. And it isn’t noise befitting a believer. And you cannot say that Paul’s brand of religion went out with the ark. I pray you get saved.

  194. Jeff and Steve,
    You need to understand RB’s tactic – it isn’t even guilt by association but worse.

    If I had a blog about what is even a worse form of child abuse that RB mentions – GUNS IN THE HANDS OF KIDS – killing other kids. I could write page after page – and i could ask why no one does anything.

    RB, being a large gun runner in his area could be pointed at even though he has never sold a gun to an underaged person in his life – why?? because he has done nothing to stop guns from getting into the hands of kids.

    Every gun ever used to shoot up a mall, a theater or a school originated in a gun shop like the one RB owns (actually he owns 3 gun shops.) Now we all know that the NRA and other groups oppose restrictions and give people grief for trying to impose restrictions – I am sure that RB belongs to several pro gun groups. I have even listened to him on local Idaho radio stations talking with guys who sound like white supremacist militia supporters.

    Now although RB himself does not sell to unauthorized people and he may have even implemented strong measures against guns getting into the hands of kids – he still has not cleaned up the organizations he belongs to.

    So, the next school shooting that happens, we can make a link to Patriot Pawn and Guns … just like RB does with individual CCs that do not do the things RB accuses and even have strong internal checks.

    See, it does not matter – how guilty is Patriot Pawn and Guns in this genocide against kids?

    That is the RB tactic, He will come here and object, but hey, then he will just sound like a CC pastor protecting the brand. :-)

  195. MLD, actually I have many Anti-Gun liberal friends (and others) who make that connection and are legally protected to do so. I’ve been told I kill children b/c I legally sell guns.

  196. Doctors perform legal abortions also. They too have no regard for a higher moral law.

  197. Well, your opinion and statements as fact about my selling guns is your take and you’re entitled to it, that’s ‘Merica. First Amendment.

  198. It’s your blatant support of child abuse in this mater that bothers me the most – but you will probably just tell me to pound sand.

  199. You’re trolling now.

  200. Seriously:

    So Jesus was just making a noise?There was no love in His rebuke?When He called people fools and hypocrites He was what?Not a true believer????Maybe you should pray for Jesus’s attitude???
    We take the Bible and we bend it to fit comfortably with our western middle class upbringings.G-d forbid some one should call us an idiot.Why shame on him he’s going straight to hell-cant be a good christian.What would Jesus think?
    I believe you would be very surprised Seriously what Jesus would think.

  201. nadav,
    I am with you – I am for calling people out. that is why above I felt comfortable saying “Messianic congregations are usually mixed up crack pots.”

  202. MLD
    Well you do have a point there at least the messianics are seriously “a sandwich short of a picnic” at least the ones in tel Aviv.I must admit I have attended quite a number of services at the Lutheran churches here in tel Aviv and Jerusalem and have enjoyed them immensely.
    All that charismatic banner waving leaping about with tambourines in most messianic congregations leaves me reaching for the Tylenol.

  203. MLD

    Incidently “Seriously” was actually defending you.if you remember I called you an idiot.
    But anyway happy to hear you are comfortable with that.

  204. nadav,
    I am totally unoffendable. Being called names does not bother me.

  205. MLD
    Well that’s great and obviously it wouldn’t be the first time anyway.
    You have a great day brother -i can tell you Wednesday was a great day now nearly 11 p.m.in Israel.

  206. Every gun ever used to shoot up a mall, a theater or a school originated in a gun shop like the one RB owns (actually he owns 3 gun shops.) Now we all know that the NRA and other groups oppose restrictions and give people grief for trying to impose restrictions – I am sure that RB belongs to several pro gun groups. I have even listened to him on local Idaho radio stations talking with guys who sound like white supremacist militia supporters.

    Well, I don’t believe in owning machine guns which a lot of folks in the NRA do but let’s say El Paso Texas and Santa Ana California have a lot less gun deaths on average than Camden New Jersey or Detriot Michigan. In fact let’s say both Plano Texas a wealthy suburb where gun access is easier is just as low in crime and Irvine California. A lot of high crime is in inner city places. So, violence is not based upon weak or strong gun laws. as much.

  207. #1 – Dave Hunt
    #2 – Chuck Smith
    #3 – Paul Crouch
    #4 – Harold Camping

    4 Big Dead Dispensationalist Dudes in one year.

  208. “Funny, I have never seen an ad soliciting attendance at a CC – perhaps they have a yellow pages ad.”

    The Calvary Chapel up the road from me has a billboard sign on a road not near the business (church).

  209. MLD, you are asserting that Calvary Chapel doesn’t advertise in local communities? Doesn’t have websites? Crusades? Events? Doesn’t have a presence in politics? Wow, you miss a lot.”

    Seems like MLD must be homebound since I remember seeing hundreds of cars with “Harvest” bumper stickers on them. In fact, I “edited” one and created a mockery…

    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/f/heresy-06.jpg
    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/f/HARVEST.GIF

  210. “MLD, you are asserting that Calvary Chapel doesn’t advertise in local communities? Doesn’t have websites? Crusades? Events? Doesn’t have a presence in politics? Wow, you miss a lot.”

    Seems like MLD must be homebound since I remember seeing hundreds of cars with “Harvest” bumper stickers on them. In fact, I “edited” one and created a mockery…

    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/f/HARVEST.GIF

  211. Doug, the conversation was how people end up in a CC

    All the websites, books DVD, radio programs are all geared to the choir.

    No non CC person walks into a CC because they saw a billboard.

    I would bet almost 100% came at the invitation or recommendation from a friend or family member. those are the people who need to be investigated. inviting unwitting friends and neighbors to CC.

  212. As I said yesterday, if all of those products were produced to influence the non believer, we would see them on the shelves at Target – but know, we find them only in the Chapel store.

  213. Nadav, i’ll give you a synopsis of MLD:
    … and became Lutheran, the conservative branch, not the liberal one.”

    Well sorta. The conservative Lutherans are the WELS Lutherans. The ELCA are the liberals and the LCMS are the elitists. More or less conservative but not the most conservative part.

  214. “Funny, I have never seen an ad soliciting attendance at a CC”

    I have. The Billboard here in SW PA isn’t targeted to people who already attend CC.

  215. WELS is not more conservative theologically – in fact both hold to the same confessions. WELS even lists the LCMS publishers on their web site.

    WELS is more conservative only in who they exclude and who they will not associate with.

  216. “The Billboard here in SW PA isn’t targeted to people who already attend CC.”

    OK, so you found a billboard. I will bet that I is targeted to CC folks from out of area.

  217. “he has a bizarre “Prosthetic Arms” analogy that tries to overcome the Synergism inconsistency inherent in his professed Belief System.”

    Luther had a similar bizarro world analogy about a horse and a rider.

    “Man’s will is in the nature of a horse. If God sit upon it, it tends and goes where God would have it go. If the Devil rides it, it goes where the Devil would have it go ; nor can it choose which of the riders it will run to. or seek…”

  218. I wrote – “The Billboard here in SW PA isn’t targeted to people who already attend CC.”

    MLD wrote “OK, so you found a billboard. I will bet that I is targeted to CC folks from out of area.”

    No level of evidence is sufficient for some people.

  219. “WELS is not more conservative theologically – in fact both hold to the same confessions. WELS even lists the LCMS publishers on their web site.
    WELS is more conservative only in who they exclude and who they will not associate with.”

    LCMS pastors don’t participate in local ministerial associations.

  220. “he has a bizarre “Prosthetic Arms” analogy that tries to overcome the Synergism inconsistency inherent in his professed Belief System.”

    Actually Alex is not bright enough to remember the conversation. The point was to prove monergism. That man does not even have the capacity to receive God’s grace and that God even needs to provide the means of reception.

  221. “LCMS pastors don’t participate in local ministerial associations.”

    Correct to a point – but WELS has excluded most Lutheran associations. WELS broke, I think in 1932 because the LCMS has association I think with ALC. Nothing over doctrine.

  222. why is Paul Crouch giving the camera a one finger salute?

  223. “The point was to prove monergism.”

    If monergism were to be true, there could be no proof possible. In fact, logic would not exist and truth would not be discernible. It would only be revelatory.

    Fortunately, it’s not true.

  224. Doug,
    “4 Big Dead Dispensationalist Dudes in one year.”

    Actually I don’t think Camping was a dispensationalist – I am pretty sure he was Amil.

    So even though his date setting was wrong, he was able to predict the end of the world without cluttering it with all the lies about Israel have a future prophetic place or Jesus sitting on David’s throne for a 1,000 yrs and no temple with a new sacrificial system.

    No, he was a looney, but he was our looney.

  225. If your logic tells you God needs your help, go for it.

    The only thing I offer up in my salvation is my sin.

  226. MLD

    “The only thing I offer up in my salvation is my sin”

    Well brother if I am behind you in the queue when they are reading out your sins I’d better take plenty of food and a tent because I think I might be in for a long wait.

  227. Haven’t joined the party in a while. What’s up CCA peeps?

    I haven’t read through all #232 comments but I’ve read enough to say that Nadav is my new hero. No… he is my new FUCKING hero. Rock on…. Your honesty is as refreshing as a cool stream in a dry desert.

    Well, CCA peeps, I have nothing to say about Paul Crotch. What can I say? I just know he was a swindler and a very successful one, but he could’ve been a man of God too. *shrugs*

    But I did have a mini epiphany today, which is why I’m here. It was about church… well, we were killing cockroaches today at my place of employment, and one of my co-workers came up to me and said, “why are you killing them? They didn’t hurt you. Let them be.” For some reason, I started laughing hysterically (holy spirit laughter?), I couldn’t stop. I asked, “You care about cockroaches? Ok, you’re right, they’re not hurting anyone.”

    I was still laughing when I was driving home. Then it occurred to me! Cockroaches = church. They’re not hurting anybody! Let them be!

    It’s true. It’s not like dum-dums like Steve Wright and whatever-his-name-was Pastor before him are hurting anyone. If people are dumb enough to donate money to them, ESPECIALLY AFTER READING THIS SITE, and reading their stupidity online, then let them! They’re not hurting anyone. They’re not extorting anyone. They’re just living off the crumbs we leave behind.

    The only people I feel bad for are the ones who selflessly devote their time, money and energy to church because they think they are doing the will of God, then find out in the end, it was all a scam. That’s when it hurts. But life is filled with hurts. And if they truly are seeking the Lord, they will pick themselves up, and keep going. That’s what I did…

  228. MLD: I don’t know how you can sit behind your keyboard, read Nadav’s stuff, and not feel like you’re a 2 feet tall man.

    Talk about mice and men.

  229. What’s up Kathy!

    MLD, listen to Kathy, she’s got you pegged.

  230. Hi Alex! Just hanging out, seeing what the CCA crew is up to?

  231. What we should do is all pile in MLD and then demand that Alex ban him.

    No, wait, that’s the PxP method…

    Oh, plus pretend that you are greatly offended over some innocuous comments…

  232. Doug, LOL.

    Well his blog will be a bit less interesting now. He’s made it clear I’m not welcome so I’m done. I’m tired of being the scapegoat over there.

  233. Alex, you and me brother, you and me.

    Michael just can’t take the competition.

  234. Well, I think Calvary power is overestimated, let’s say its in an area where church attendance is about 44 while the national average is 50. So, Calvary and the mega churches don’t do as good as states like Mississippi which has a lot less mega churches. The South is truly the real bible belt since it doesn’t get people that came from other parts of the US like Southern California did until 1990. From 1990 to the present it gets international not domestic immigration as much. In fact the 1990’s and 2000’s seen lots of folks leave LA and OC and SD because housing was too expensive, this is why you seen the growth of Calvary outside of California.

  235. Actually I think I would miss MLD- that cute little photo of him in a black hat and drag-oh sorry its Martin Luther, had me going for a moment.

  236. MLD: “I have yet to see where Alex has earned the right to speak truth into my life.

    Alex is the one bragging that he has 10s of thousands of supporters – he does not need to come to the PP to recruit help. He brags he has 6 million readers – that should be quite the pool to draw from.”

    1. When truth is being spoken what does it matter what or who God uses to inform you.

    2. Are you not associated by your friendship with CC Pastors and others who are on friendly terms with CC? Are you not of the faith? You have heard, but you refused to listen and then to do what is right to stand up for those who have reported corruption and abuse. Yet, you stand up for Saeed Abedeni, while resorting to every type of insult and offense to discount and discredit Alex. You might commiserate with those harmed, yet at the same time you dismiss it entirely by making caustic and flippant, glib jokes that you know are meant to minimize and avoid doing what every Christian should be doing when it comes to these things, as reported on this blog and by the way, Michael N has acknowledged.

    What more, your analogy regarding the trade that Alex engages has absolutely no bearing on your responsiblity as a Christian to come alongside Alex and others who have reported being mistreated by CC to join with us and engage ourselves in seeking remedy with them within the church. Your curt and sarcastic remark is to the effect is to report these things to some legal entitity if we want results, which is just another way of distracting and enabling CC to remain unaccountable and without appropriate structures put into place that would do much in the way in providing safety, healing, and reconciliation.

    I understand you put much stock in your particular denomination, but at the expense of annulling God’s Word. For we are to handle these things within the church, yet it appears that you ride upon the same belief that man’s court is the answer instead. At the same time I would like to say that it is curious to me how CC will use silence to silence those who have attempted to resolve these things using scriptural steps as outlines in Matthew and 1 Corinthians. What strikes me the most in this is:

    1. As long as CC remain silent, they “think” they cannot be held to an account.
    2. As long as CC maintains the Moses model, then non-members are kept silent.
    3. So, it is of utmost important to cause their giving units to believe that they are “annointed” and to believe that if anyone goes against their authority, that person or persons are being divisive, rebellious, and vindictive, disturbed, unloving, and an enemy of the Cross.
    4. CC are extremely litigious and apparently as long as they are under the radar,that is, not breaking any of man’s law, then they must be abiding in Christ and walking in obedience.
    5. So in this, the way they interpret and teach scripture can be very much that which accommodates the Moses model, reinforces their authority, and enables them to control with the help of the giving units to believe whatever they do in the way they handle the titles and offerings, make decisions or ignore those things that should not be named within the church is that which is given for them to do base on their rightful entitlements be it a church leader and man.
    6. And finally, leading the congregants to believe to do otherwise would displease the Lord, thus causing a burden of a false and toxic guilt and shame to be place upon them.

    Question: Why does the caged bird continue to sing? Because they don’t know anything other than what they have been led to believe. The opened door policy is a smokescreen to minimize the cult-like environment that have been reported to exist and then perpetuated among those who attend. It is a process of seduction and grooming that takes place. The open door is for those who ask the wrong questions or expect something more than giving their time and money to a cause that is without accountabiltiy between leadership and congregants, among just one reason one would leave.

    Yet, it is written: when one hurt in the body, we all hurt. In CC’s it appears this only applies to the leadership when such things as this blogsite has brought into the light takes place. Remember, Saeed, not so much Alex, his brothers, and the many others, including myself. Blacklist them, better yet think about taking them to court instead.

    A double minded standard and so far from what scripture teaches, IMO.

  237. Clarification:

    “Yet, it is written: when one hurt in the body, we all hurt. In CC’s it appears this only applies to the leadership when such things as this blogsite has brought into the light takes place. Remember, Saeed, not so much Alex, his brothers, and the many others, including myself. Blacklist them, better yet think about taking them to court instead.

    Yet, it is written when one person in the body hurts, the whole body hurts. In the case of CC’s and their pastors, this only applies to them. Not when such things that have been reported by those here and on other blogs takes place among the non-members congregants when it involves directly or indirectly the leadership and the enabling of such harm being perpetrated. In this case—it’s to court we go because there the Moses model simply does not permit these things to be handle appropriately and scripturally that involves the entire body as define by the written Word—God is not a respector of person and neither are we too be. man, woman, or child we are all precious in His sight and we ought not to ever put our leaders above than that position of being a servant to all, not just those who mirrors back what they would like to believe they are entitled to be seen and treated as per the Moses model. Special, that is—-this is what leads to the mindset that Alex and others have witnessed and experienced by many on the other blogsite and then been told over and over again, it’s not their problem and stop victimizing us. Thus taking on a proxie role of that system that enables corruption and abuses to be ignored and swept under the rug.

    Remember Saeed Abedeni, a CC Pastor in Idaho, but not Alex and his minions of the devil’s worker who seek to be vengeful and full of hate, harming the body of Christ. Not hardly, but if you are able to control what and how what is being shared, while villifying the person who has been victimized, then it’s easy to turn the table making it appear other what it really is. Doesn’t have much to do with the Bible, well at least not any of the Bibles I owned and have read from front to back, that is. .

  238. “So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus.” -Philippians 2:1-5

    Depart from Evil and expose it, Do not participate in it, whether is by spoken words, actions, or by remaining silent under the guise of “unity.”

  239. What does scripture say about looking at the fruit to tell what type of tree it is. What does scripture say about the tree and how the root of it will determine how it grows. By tracing back from the fruit, the branches and the trunk, and finally the very seed that was planted, we can discover how it came to be and why it is that the fruit looks the way that it does. Or at least resemble that which needs to be cut back or pruned, or entirely uprooted and replanted to get rid of the infestation or rot it has born as a result the soil or nutrients it was rooted in.

    http://ucministries.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/word-of-faith-tree-of-life-new.jpg

  240. Hannah52:

    …just had an experience with this and am wondering where is all this $ is going that all these churches are collecting…when people are sacrificing their hard earned “God money” to give and tithe-thinking they are giving to the church to give to the needy.

    Ever seen that Saddam Palace/wedding-cake of a TBN world headquarters along the 405 Freeway? Even Liberace would be embarrassed at that amount of Bling. And that level of Bling requires a big level of $$$$$.

  241. Headless:

    The thing is if you take a look at Jan Crouch -over sixty-pink wig -a face like a Google map of Tibet you can’t expect them to build the Systine Chapel.
    At least Liberace could play the piano.

  242. Quoting Dolly Parton: “It takes a lot of money to look this cheap.”

  243. Stan (Stam) LOL! Very true in this case.

  244. Pink hairspray and all those rhinestones and plastic surgery don’t come cheap! Costs lots of Jesus-money.

  245. That image of Paul Crouch supposedly flipping the bird is proven to have been a rather poorly done photo shop hack job. Shame on you for showing it as if it was real.

  246. Nona, it has not been established that it was photosphopped and a fake, it is a screen grab and the official story I’ve heard is that it was not intentionally flipping someone off but is a real photo/screen grab.

    I post it as social commentary on what I believe Paul Crouch did to his critics who tried to hold him accountable for his financial corruption and other misdeeds and abuse of Jesus-money.

  247. Was Paul Crouch flawed? Yes of course, he was not perfect neither are any of us. Yet, God used this man in a mighty and profound way and many many souls have been brought into the Kingdom of God because of his obedience to his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. God’s Word will NEVER return void and many more souls will be won for the Kingdom of God because of this ministry. I’m not condoning everything that has gone down at TBN, if fact some things are horrifying. But a soul saved in Jesus name, is a soul saved for all eternity. God can use anyone and anything to minister Christ to a lost and dying world. Open your bibles and your hearts and humble yourselves before the Lord.

  248. Yes, Jesus said to judge situations. However, he clearly said to do it in an attitude of love. I see some very cruel and hateful dispositions on here. Also, it’s evident that some people are saying things that they don’t know for absolute to be the truth. But what really bothers me the most is how the USA has lowered its dignity to this level. Where’s the honor? Even if a man is guilty, there is a way to have decency and honor when discussing it. Guess a lot of people commenting on here are as disgusting as they are claiming this Paul to be. Go figure. That’s usually the way it is. We can so clearly see the faults in others because it’s what we know to be true within ourselves. Most assuredly when it’s overkill.

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