Aug 032012
 

Introducing the "New" Calvary Chapel. We have rebuilt him...he is bigger...faster....stronger...more "anointed". You don't want to mess with the Super Dove.

We mentioned here that CCOF had “dissolved” and that big changes to Calvary Chapel were dead-ahead (pardon the pun or double entendre)…in the form of some sort of new denomination and new Board.

The picture has become very clear now, as Michael Newnham over at PhoenixPreacher.net has released this letter from Calvary Chapel’s Don McClure explaining the “New” Calvary Chapel System. Curiously enough, the opening confirms that Chuck Smith, unfortunately, is in fact fallible and can tell lies. In my presence with Dave Rolph, Janet Carter and my brother…Chuck said he had no responsibility or control over the Calvary Chapel Movement. In a recent radio interview where he and I discussed the Bob Grenier situation and Chuck’s inaction…he re-stated that he has “no responsibility for what goes on in the Movement” and was “only responsible for Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa”…and Chuck also stated such from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit where he issued a warning to me that God would vaporize me or give me cancer or something for touching His anointed.

Apparently Chuck Smith does have quite an influence and control over the Movement…SHOCKER!…as if that untruth wasn’t obvious.

Here’s the information in its entirety courtesy of PhoenixPreacher.net:

Dear Pastor,

As you know, last week Pastor Chuck sent out an email to the Calvary Chapel affiliates throughout the world briefly explaining the changes he has made concerning the movement. This is a follow-up email to try to fill in some of the details. While there is still much to be worked out, the following is basically what has changed.

CCOF is being dissolved and a new plan has been established. Chuck has asked a group of men that have been with him for many years to take over the oversight of the movement. The name is “Calvary Chapel Association” or CCA. There will no longer be a central headquarters or anything like that. The leadership of the movement has been regionalized throughout the United States. Soon, we hope to get working on the rest of the world and set it up with regional leadership as the states, but that will take a little more time. The regions of the country are broken up mostly by state boundaries, with a few exceptions which will be cleared up on the new website. The names of the regions and states which they will cover are listed below. Each region has a leader of a team. The leader is listed and his team members are listed as well.

Northeast: New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Washington DC
Leader – Joe Focht
Lloyd Pulley
Randy Cahill
Ken Graves

Deep South: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia
Leader – Sandy Adams
Troy Warner
Paul Lester
John Pillivant
Jerry McAnulty
Mark Kirk
John Hoppe

Florida
Leader – Malcolm Wild
Bob Coy
Danny Hodges
Gib Allen
Jim Gallagher
Kent Nottingham

Mid- West Great Lakes Area: Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin
Leader: Bill Goodrich
Steve Miller
Ed Gaines

Central Region: Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas
Leader: Jim Stewart
Dwight Douville
Wes Denham
Chris Hess

Southwest: Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma
Leader – Skip Heitzig
Robert Furrow
Charlie Flores
Mark Martin
Bill Gehm

Texas
Leader – Rick Coburn
Ron Hindt
Ken Merrihew
Bill Gehm

Northwest/Alaska: Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Alaska
Leader – Wayne Taylor
Bob Caldwell
Rob Verdeyen
Ken Ortiz

Central-West Region: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Colorado, Wyoming 

Leader: Tom Stipe

Shaun Sells

Dave Love

Eric Cartier

Al Pittman

Hawaii
Leader – Bill Stonebraker
Mike Stangel
Rick Irons
Tim Newman
Ricky Ryan

Northern/Central California
Leader – Damian Kyle
John Snoderly
Bill Holdridge
Rich Chaffin
Tim Brown

California: Santa Barbara/Ventura/San Fernando Valley
Leader: David Guzik
Troy Spilman
Lance Ralston
Paul Berry
Rob McCoy

California: LA/Orange/San Bernardino Counties
Leader: Jeff Johnson
Raul Ries
Jack Hibbs
David Rosales
Brian Brodersen
Steve Mays

California: San Diego/Other southern counties
Leader – Mike MacIntosh
Ray Bentley
Rob Glickman
Mike Madigan
Bob Botsford
Pete Malinger
Chaz Yandal
Norlyn Kent
Erick Martin
Gary Lawton

The team of pastors in the regions will essentially assume the role in the region that CCOF used to fulfill and much more. They will oversee affiliations and hopefully the process will return to church planting based on relationships. It will be their responsibility to see that the process becomes strong and personal and when someone comes into the family of churches they are well connected with their fellow ministries. They will also be places for anyone in their region to go to for most any reason that a person would contact a church. The website under construction right now is very user friendly with regional team members photos and a place to go for questions.

They will handle problem letters, calls and emails that now come into either Calvary of Costa Mesa or CCOF. Any of this will be immediately forwarded to the regional team and the matter can be handled locally with leaders who are there in the area. Hopefully this will be a help and blessing to all.

The regional teams will help oversee regional conferences that help bring the Calvary affiliates in the their areas closer together. It is Chuck’s desire that these men who have been with him for years will become looked to more and more to help guide, bless, encourage, inspire and give fresh vision to the movement.

As to the central office, yes, there will still be one of sorts, but, it is more of a clearinghouse and database for the movement. I (Don McClure) and Michelle Wright (a very capable secretary you may have spoken to in the past) Will be overseeing it. There is, however, a major change from the previous time we attempted the regional idea about 10 years ago. And that is that both Chuck Smith and I will not be having any authority over the decisions of the regional teams. Though we sit on the council of CCA, the true leadership is being handed over to the regions. My personal involvement is as an administrator/facilitator among the council members and handle planning and helping the regions all work together and oversee the home office. I will continue with my present ministry for the most part but, consider it a joy to help in this manner.

Chuck has asked the CCA council to take over the vision and leadership for the senior pastors annual conference and thus become the planning board for that. Those men are listed below:

Chuck Smith, Skip Heitzig, Rick Ryan, Mike MacIntosh, Raul Ries, Damian Kyle, Joe Focht, Bob Coy, Bob Caldwell, Jack Hibbs, Brian Brodersen, David Rosales, Malcolm Wild, Steve Mays, Jeff Johnson, Bill Stonebraker, Wayne Taylor, Greg Laurie, Tom Stipe, David Guzik, Ray Bentley, Lloyd Pulley, Sandy Adams and Don Mc Clure.

Chuck has also asked the CCA council to oversee the pastors wives annual conference as it is Kay’s desire as well. The board servicing the pastors wives conference is as follows. Leader: Sandy MacIntosh, Karyn Johnson, Cheryl Brodersen, Debbi Bryson Cathy Dickinson, June Hesterly, Laura Jackson, Cathe Laurie, Gail Mays, Sharon Ries, Marie Rosales, and Jean McClure

Hopefully this helps answer a few questions that are floating around.

I believe that as a group of ministries, we are all truly thankful for the foundation that both Chuck and Kay have laid for us and it is a great challenge to have them pass the movement on. I am sure I speak for all the council when I ask for your prayers and patience as we seek the Lord’s anointing and blessing on this new plan. Many have been praying for the Lord to show us the direction for the future and we believe He has. Personally I am very thankful to be a part of this family and to be surrounded by such a tremendous group of brothers and sisters. I am thrilled and blessed to see where He would lead us now. As for the moment, the old website is still functional and we can all be found there until things get freshened up.

Thank you all, in His love

Don McClure
Administrator

Michael Newnham is convinced the whole thing will implode very quickly. Maybe, maybe not. If it does hold together, there are some things I like…and some concerns.

The things I like:

1. “They will handle problem letters, calls and emails that now come into either Calvary of Costa Mesa or CCOF. Any of this will be immediately forwarded to the regional team and the matter can be handled locally with leaders who are there in the area. Hopefully this will be a help and blessing to all.”

If this is true, and if “They will handle problem letters, call and emails” means they will help folks (non-member members) with problems with CC Senior Pastors etc…then good. Unfortunately, “They will handle problems…” probably means exactly what I experienced…it means, “We will help be a buffer between the CC Senior Pastor and the trouble-makers, gather as much information as the person will give us and help you prepare a defense against them”.

I hope the skeptical side of me isn’t right…but from my experience (and yours) it’s probably a shield for the CCSP rather than a “help” to you the non-member giving unit at Calvary Chapel. We’ll see.

I’m already preparing my “problem letter” to send to Damian Kyle regarding Bob Grenier….

2. I like that there are some good dudes on the list of Regional Cardinals…except Skip Heitzig (Long list of disqualifying issues and history of corruption) and Raul Ries (Long list of disqualifying issues, alleged adultery and corruption). I also like that guys like Bob Grenier and Lance Cook are not on that list. If Bob had made that list (and I bet Chuck thought about doing it just to tick me off)…I don’t want to speculate the outcome of my reaction :smile:

3. I like that there is a form of Shared Power and some sort of Ecclesiastical Structure and that there seems to be some good thought put into this New System.

4. I like that Chuck Smith DID exercise control and authority in making this happen…and not so he can be sued…but because it’s the right thing as the “Anointed Leader” of the Movement to do. If Chuck really is hearing from God in some special way with regards to the CC Movement…then by all means, take some responsibility and put some things in place to deal with issues that come up in the Movement…don’t leave folks high and dry who trust that Calvary Chapel has some of their best interests at heart.

Concerns:

1. Potential that it’s more of a business move in an attempt to limit liability for what are probably more Calvary Chapel Child Molestation Lawsuits.

2. Potential that the “they will handle problem letters” is “handle” in the sense of deflection and insulation of the CCSP and not a true “help” in a Matthew 18 style to try and bring reconciliation and correction to a situation at a local Calvary Chapel affiliate.

3. There is no mention of System-wide mandated rules to help protect children from molestation and child abuse to be an “official” Calvary Chapel affiliate. I hope this will be corrected soon. They need to require all affiliates to perform background checks on anyone who will be with kids under a Church capacity. They need to have a Zero Tolerance policy for accused and/or convicted child molesters and child abusers…and they need to black-ball any person found to have an issue with pedophile or child abuse from holding a Position of Trust in the Calvary Chapel System in the form of being a pastor or youth leader or youth volunteer etc.

I don’t have any faith that Calvary Chapel will do the right thing on their own. My hope is that the Trend in our Society and Legal System brought on by the Jerry Sandusky and Penn State example will scare CC into doing more of the right things…or face lawsuits, criminal prosecutions for not reporting etc. Unfortunately, “anointed” doesn’t necessarily equal moral and ethical and doing the right thing all the time…as exampled many times over by these fallible and human leaders.

It is still a disgrace that a guy like Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia is an official Calvary Chapel affiliate despite all the evidence and pile of testimonies from so many witnesses to his wrongdoing. Chuck Smith took our interactions personally and he has listened to guys like David Rosales who are Bob’s BFF’s…rather than doing the right thing. God knows the truth…but that’s not good enough for me and many others. Something still needs to be done, since Bob won’t cop to sin and won’t repent and try to make it right.

Transparency and Information needs to be a priority in the New Calvary Chapel as well. Which Calvary Chapel affiliates perform background checks? Which have open finances?

As a CCSP said at the recent Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor’s Conference, “If you’ve got nothing to hide…you’ve got nothing to hide”. Amen.

 Posted by at 6:47 am

  123 Responses to “The New Calvary Chapel: Chuck Smith announces in letter to pastors “the changes he has made” to Calvary Chapel (but I thought…err…he has no say in what goes on in the CC Movement)”

  1. I had long phone conversation with Don McClure at the beginning of this (pre-blog), requesting he help with the Pastor Bob Grenier situation and what has been happening CCV. He assured me he would look into it and that if the aligations were true, BG would be removed. That’s as far as it went. He never called me back and as far as I know, never contacted the Grenier boys. I still had hope and faith in leadership back then, that seems so foolish now.

    A few years before this phone call, I had a few in person conversations with Don discussing “The Primer” a book he grew up with and still endorses. This was at a conference in Santa Cruz.

    I look back on it all now with anger. All those conferences, sermons, books, tapes, we’re just part of the scam. Motivational siminars to sell there products. I bought their bogus crap because it was wrapped in a disguise of Christianity.

    I have zero faith that CC will change. I think this letter is just another Manchurch corporational restructuring wrapped in a feel good box for those franchise owners to understand how they can strive to acheive more power someday at a regional level. Its easier to peddle your wares with more lines of credentials at the back of your book.

    I am glad that we have tarnished BG’s name enough that they didn’t offer him a regional leadership position again.

  2. Don McClure never contacted us.

    It’s been a sham accountability facade up until now.

    I’m going to retry with Damian Kyle and the “New” Calvary Chapel…but I doubt they will do anything meaningful.

    I think the only way in the future is lawsuits. I’m hoping to get my law degree in the next 4 years and learn how to sue churches and non-profits for fraud and for child molestation/abuse etc when they are being negligent etc.

  3. May a thousand lawsuit bloom!

  4. …I’d add to lawsuits: reporting suspected criminal activity, fraud and IRS violations etc.

    I think the more folks speak up when they notice stuff, the better.

    It is what’s outside the Church Bubble that will influence the stuff on the inside…as the leadership is deaf, dumb and blind to corruption, abuses and those who get the raw end of a CC situation. It’s human nature.

  5. It’s a good article Al. Sending another letter and reaching out to the new leadership is worth the steps but probably only so you can say that you tried. But who knows, maybe these were the guys who were ready to remove BG when stopped by Chuck. Whatever hold BG has on CS ends when that bucket is kicked.

    You’re going to make a great attorney. That’s pretty obvious.

  6. “Chuck has asked a group of men that have been with him for many years to take over the oversight of the movement.”

    But, Chuck told me he has no oversight over the Movement…so why is he asking these men to take over oversight of the Movement for him?

    L.I.A.R.

    Chuck needs to repent of his lying. His pants are in fact on fire.

  7. Thanks Not Alone.

    I take the LSAT’s this fall. That will tell me if I’ve got skills or not.

    I looked at the sample tests…and it’s right up my alley. I could answer every question correctly…it’s the time constraints…can I answer enough correctly in each section in the 35 minute time limit per section. If I score high, it’ll confirm the direction, IMO. I’m kind of praying along those lines. Good score, move forward. Bad score, door closed.

    The good thing is I have a local option that’s a good school, they have program for working professionals, my undergrad stuff lines up perfectly and I have time as the biz’s are pretty much on auto pilot now and I have free time (as evidence by all the blogging :smile: )

    I still have a burning conviction for this stuff that won’t go away…but I don’t have the credentials or knowledge to sue and work through the courts to make a dent…so I need that degree and then the license to practice. There will be victims with molestation, abuse and fraud issues with regards to CC’s and other churches I’m sure…as they won’t change much on their own.

  8. I pray that God grant you an abundance of wisdom, as he has done already. You would be great Alex!

  9. I think whomever wrote that letter is pretty dumb. They are implicitly admitting Smith had oversight in the past. And the law doesn’t recognize “movements” so all that language won’t help them in court.

    I also think that this could go many different ways. The people in charge are clearly sychphants. By the same token they are power hungry by their very nature of being sychphants. Frankly I think this is something of a ruse while Costa Mesa retains invisible control. Of course, all you need is one good Luther type figure once the reins are loosened to cause a major schism.

    You’re going to get a disproportionate amount of Chuck sychophants just so long as the people do not have the right to elect (not ordain) their own pastors and just so long as the people have no voting rights over the budget. He who has the gold, makes the rules, as it were.

    As far as abuse goes, this will make abuse cases worse, not better. It will make it easier for local pastors to mismanage or mishandle cases becuse they don’t have the oversight of the centralized “fixers” at Costa Mesa. The move is obvius in intent-make the local CC’s fiscially responsible for legal problems.

  10. Alex

    You have done so much for so many people with this blog.
    When I think of Pauls dissertation in Romans I can imagine you in the same position.
    You are fearless …not by might nor power but by His Spirit.
    God is always looking for those who will do His will.
    I will be praying for success with getting into law school!
    I am sure you know about all the reviews for the LSATS.

    There are many of us such as myself that have been given a voice by this blog, and an outlet to share. I am grateful to you.

  11. Thanks guys, much appreciated. I care (probably too much) and it frustrates me when guys like Bob G and others do what they do and get away with it in CC…and then a guy like Chuck Smith lies through his teeth, shows very poor integrity and spits in the face of victims and then his “anointed” emissaries smugly protect the false image.

    I’ll use it as motivation.

  12. Alex,

    The song just came to mind and the visual adds to it :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgSMxY6asoE

  13. You go Alex. What a Force you will be, with your background, resume, and skill set. Awesome that your present circumstances and sweet wife grant you the possibility of law school. I would surmise that when CC trolls saw your #2 that they had one of their own. “I felt a great disturbance in the Movement … as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror”. You’d better get on with your LSAT exercises.

  14. (Steve Wright, Calvary Chapel Lake Elsinore) Another Voice says:
    August 3, 2012 at 8:42 AM
    Maybe it would be helpful to hear ideas from the audience as to how THEY would choose to decentralize things within the CC movement. I ask in all seriousness.

    Now is a time of change. People like me (and many others) listen to this community.

    In fact, a couple of the men there are (or were) participants in this community.

    I would also shout a loud agreement with MLD. This has nothing to do with the congregations really.

    CCOF spoke to an affiliation of like-minded brothers and was a means for appointing new pastors and encouraging fellowship among the pastors. This regional structure speaks to those two main goals.

    Like I said, I am neither excited or disappointed – because I really do not see how it affects us personally at our church.”

    This is one big myth that keeps being perpetuated by even so-called “good guys” like Steve:

    “CCOF is an affiliation of like-minded bothers”

    NO. CCOF is sold to the public as an ACCOUNTABILITY ARM of Calvary Chapel which is why folks “SEND PROBLEM LETTERS AND EMAILS” to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and CCOF in the past.

    The “New” Calvary Chapel is billing itself in a similar way in the language of the letter by stating that folks can send in complaints and problems and that it will be reviewed and dealt with.

    The stuff SHOULD be dealt with, liability or not. I hope this time around the “New” Calvary Chapel System will actually deal with problems and not as they have in the past where the “problems” are defined as the CCSP having a problem with someone and CCOF acting as a buffer and a Stone Wall and an information gathering arm to help cover the CCSP’s rear end. That is evil.

  15. Jeff Jones of a Calvary Chapel in California offered this missive:

    “Jeff Jones says:
    August 3, 2012 at 10:13 AM
    Xenia, It’s really good to hear you say that. So many times I feel beat down by those who feel obligated to “figure it all out” and cast a black shadow over everything “Calvary.”

    This is a good thing that is happening. I believe it is happening because people have prayed and God has responded to their prayers.

    It’s says alot about Chuck Smith’s integrity and His willingness to see God’s blessing upon the churches in the future. It was not easy for him to say: “Okay, it’s time to make a change. I am letting go.” It’s like letting go of your right arm or a child. It’s tough to say, “I’m out, you guys take over.” I cannot imagine what Pastor Chuck is feeling right now. I am just praying for him.

    Calvary Chapel needs your prayers and support, because we are co-laborer’s with all of you in God’s field.”

    I agree it’s potentially a good thing, if the purpose is real accountability and if the folks who have a “problem” are treated fairly and a legit attempt is made to bring reconciliation and accountability.

    I disagree that Chuck Smith has a lot of integrity. He lied to me, lied about me, promised to help and then did an about face, etc. Chuck says out of one side of his mouth he has no responsibility and control over the CC Movement…and then exercises control and responsibility when he wants to on matters he wants to.

    If Chuck would do the right thing now and use his authority to allow the three CC pastors that were reportedly on their way to deal with Bob Grenier who Chuck blocked the first time around, then I’m a believer in his integrity. We all sin, we all make mistakes, but a so-called spiritual leader should correct his mistakes when he makes them…and I hope this New CC is going to be a correction of past mistakes by taking some responsibility for the Positions of Trust CC clones across the globe.

  16. Jeff Jones, CC Pastor goes on to say:

    ““Okay, it’s time to make a change. I am letting go.” It’s like letting go of your right arm or a child. It’s tough to say, “I’m out, you guys take over.”

    What’s there to “take over” if Chuck says the CC Movement is all independent and he has and had no responsibility or control etc? Can you “take over” nothing? Of course not. Chuck Smith is caught in a lie and needs to repent of it.

  17. Thanks i heart sheck, and Hannah :lol:

  18. I actually hope Chuck’s cancer does stay in remission and that he lives another 5 or 10 years so I can sue CC on behalf of victims and depose him :smile:

  19. Perfect song Hannah. So why are none of the “Central CA” team members actually in Central CA except Damian Kyle of Modesto? The others are Antioch, Fremont, Santa Cruz, and Laguna Creek. No central valley except Damian. Too bad no Bruce Mumper of Fresno — his July 2010 letter to Alex was beautiful.

  20. When will the people in the church realize that they ARE the church and demand the right to have a voice in choosing who they want to pastor them and exercise the power to remove the ones that abuse them? After all, the sheep pay the bills, mortgages and the salaries!

    Why in so many CC’s are the sheep fleeced and beaten and then told to leave if they do not agree that they must submit to abusive authority… Of course this is spiritual manipulation of the worse kind.

  21. Alex,

    I just noticed someone re-reading the letter…
    Did you notice the first sentence in that letter?

    “As you know, last week Pastor Chuck sent out an email to the Calvary Chapel affiliates”

    Didn’t they deny there were affiliates?

  22. something..not someone

  23. Hannah, Chuck and Dave Rolph in the “meeting” did in fact deny any knowledge of an Affiliation Agreement and were extremely coy about the whole issue of “affiliation”…Dave still maintains it was a misunderstanding on that issue. They seem to not be worried about the issue now so, it’s good to see them tell the truth about affiliation etc openly.

  24. Wow, these guys are blind in their Chuck worship. His lies are well-documented in multiple sources, even in his own sermon recordings. How can fellow pastors say he has integrity when he has clearly LIED? It’s wrong to ignore he told a big fat lie, and even worse to deny it. Blind leading the blind.
    And I don’t recall, was it ever stated who the 3 Wise Men were that were yanked from confronting Boob?

  25. I heart sheck said, “How can fellow pastors say he has integrity when he has clearly LIED?”

    B/c they choose to. It’s a conscious choice. Even the so-called “good guys” won’t call a spade a spade.

  26. Alex, I wish you the best in your law degree pursuit. Sounds like a “calling”!

    Hannah, great song!

    Sheck, I think you are right and many peeking here just gasped at the thought of Alex doing the lawyering for the upcoming suits.

    Question: In the Central-West Region: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Colorado, Wyoming …

    1. Why are 4 out of the 5 in close proximity to one another? And even the 6th is not that far away just over the border in Wyoming?
    2. Do the other states not have any CC’s?
    3. Do the other states not have any qualified pastors?
    4. Do the other states just not have an “in” with the big boys?

    Wondering … why Ed Taylor and Gino Geraci are not on the list? Are they vying for some other bigger role? Are they planning on ceceeding from the union?

  27. Grateful, I think there are some dudes missing from the list due to Qualification issues (which some in CC take seriously).

    …though Heitzig and Ries still made the list. They are “too big to fail” I guess. Untouchables, despite their shady records.

  28. Alex, I see you still haven’t gotten a life.

    You and your cronies can whine all you want. I do what I do, when I want to, how I want to.

    I don’t have any control or responsibility for the CC Movement. None. Nada. Zilch.

    Hold on a sec…phone’s ringing…Roger, can you grab that? Screen it and make sure it’s not that Jeremy Bowling guy from RemnantXRadio again. It’s Heitzig? Great, put him on. Hello Skip, how are my plans for the New Calvary Chapel coming? Good. Good boy. Nice work.

    Anyways, like I was saying, I have NO control and no responsibility and absolutely zero authority in my Movement. I mean in the Lord’s Movement.

    Got it? Now go away and leave me alone kid.

  29. So let me get this straight. Don McClure is saying in the letter that the responsibilities of CCOF are being handed over to the different regions? Chuck has also said that the CCOF is powerless to do anything. So exactly what from the CCOF (the organization that does nothing) is being transferred regionally? This appears to be a perception of something changing with absolutely no reality to it. What am I missing here?

  30. andrew, good question.

    My hope is that the “New” CC Arm is not really a Wall as in Stone Wall or a Foot as in you call in with a grievance and we kick you in the rear end.

  31. So basically just smoke and mirrors or some type of shell game like in a magic show?

  32. Wide Awake, six months ago today you wrote in your #142 at
    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1069
    “He [Bob G] is going to fall fast…and hard. I wish all of you could see what is mounting against him now. You would be shuttering in your shoes to think that you would ever think you could ‘Con’ God and get away with it.”

    Can you and/or Alex elaborate? The blog has been strangely silent on developments against Bob, considering it was birthed by his atrocities and cowardly refusal to man up, own up, and reconcile. The terms “FBI”, “IRS”, and “mainstream media” have been thrown around, but not much has been written lately about him in reference to those phrases. I understand silence may be necessary at times for investigative purposes, but I and presumably others would like to see more public pressure focused on him.

  33. i heart sheck, I’m not commenting on the BG thing b/c stuff is going on that isn’t the church doing the looking. We’ll see if anything happens. If people (plural) are telling the truth (and i think they are) I don’t see how there isn’t an indictment…but I thought the CC Molestation Lawsuit in Idaho would have legs, so anything can happen. Bob G is good buddies with local law enforcement there in Tulare County so I wouldn’t put anything out of the realm of possibility.

  34. Centy put it best

    It sounds like my affiliation is now with my regional team…… no one asked me if that was ok with me…… I signed up as an affiliate to Chuck and Costa Mesa…… it is my old church…..and that is my preference….

  35. Apparently the Moses model is doing poorly at the macro level. Given that Moses has finally realized he is mortal, that is.

  36. Someone asked who gets the stuff, ie, the radio stations, the publishing arms, the Bible College, the Castle? Whoever is on the board for those institutions will end up with them, right?

    Every group must have a point of cohesion. Unfortunately for CC that point of cohesion is Chuck Smith. There may be levels of organic connection between the various local players, but that’s really not much more (in my mind at least) than a local ministerial association that you might find in any city, etc.

    Someone else rightly asked what can they do better? Unfortunately, they have created such a monster that I don’t see any way to fix it.

    How will the big boys manage to manage their own churches AND manage their regions? Other denominations have regional superintendents who don’t have churches while they are acting as superintendents. But in CC none of the big boys will give up their local power centers will they?

  37. I see Alex has now taken to posting comments to his site that were made elsewhere, so he can then take issue with them.

    After well over two years, I am done engaging Alex as to Calvary Chapel.

    If any of the readers to this site wish to discuss what has been posted above by Alex, you can email me pastorsteve (at) calvaryle (dot) org

    I will not respond further in these comments for history has shown that Alex will censor and delete posts as he desires. And that is his right as the blog owner.

    I will respond to an email if you wish to send one.

    Peace.

  38. Steve, as for me, I would post on PP if Michael had not banned me…

    I am sure you realize that Alex is limited on PP as to how far he can take an argument.

    Personally, I want to see justice for Alex. I am saddened that you don’t share that interest and have chosen a path of being offended at the truth.

  39. Alex has always had a very long leash, Doug. You know it, you read there. The number of comments Alex has made that I pulled, I can count on one hand.

  40. That is, until today.

  41. Doug, as Reuben wrote, your description of Alex on the PP is not remotely accurate.

    We could line up 100 PP posters, and not one of them would agree with what you wrote.

    Therefore, any reference you make to someone not interested in “the truth” is questionable since, using even this one example, it is clear you are distorting the truth…dramatically…as it suits you in your little barb back at me.

    I am very interested in the truth. I just put an open invitation to the readers of this blog to contact me by email. After two years of discussion with Alex, and even leading to this open invitation to dialog, your take that I am one with no interest is…again…a dramatic distortion.

    It is accurate that I have no interest in “the truth as Doug Gililand alone sees it”

    Doug, if you can’t be relied upon to honestly perceive and express the reality of something as public and open as the last couple years on the blogs….how could anyone trust you to fully, accurately, honestly portray the truth on weightier matters?

  42. The darn spam filter must be on the fritz…who let those two in? :smile:

  43. And the Oscar for Passive Aggressive Drama Queen goes to…drumroll please:

    Calvary Chapel Pastor Jeff Jones! [LOUD APPLAUSE]

    “Jeff Jones says:
    August 3, 2012 at 5:11 PM
    Dear Michael and Group:
    I will never post anyhting on this blog again. I have just been informed that my comments here have been copied from here, and re-posted to Alex Grenier’s blog where he rebuts my comments. He is a piece of work.

    I feel that I have been violated and what he has done is completely unethical. In the past, I have tried to steer from the threads where he posts because I feel he is under-handed, disrespectful, rude and rather carnal in his behavior. He has brought way too much harm too others (me now included) and no one seems to want to stop it. So…..goodbye.

    This act makes me regret coming here to try and reason and share my views even though we are the Body of Christ together.

    Take care,

    Jeff”

    Jeff, you feel like you’ve been violated? At least Chuck Smith didn’t do it to you from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit with no way to respond.

    You’re welcome to come on here and discuss it.

  44. Reuben, good to see you.

    You should leave the faux exchange up between “The Real Chuck Smith” and “Alex”…it was good stuff. Fantasy, fiction, the stuff of Unicorns and Flying Spaghetti Monsters…but good.

    Steve Wright, surprised to see your name…I almost forgot what it was, you hide behind AV so much :smile:

    Steve, you’re a mixed bag. You don’t get it and you probably never will.

  45. Jeff Jones accepting his Oscar for Best Passive Aggressive Performance by a Drama Queen:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cTR6fk8frs

  46. I agree that Alex has a very long leash on PP. So what?

    You guys are angry because he is right. He reposted your writings and accurately rebutted them with nothing but the truth. Sorry that it makes you angry.

    Dividing the posters here by email is akin to the old CC tactic of pulling an attender off to another room, fill him full of your version of the truth and send him on his merry way to fight your battle for you.

    The facts are Chuck lied…..a lot. Bob Grenier molested his own son and you CC pastors and group speak PP-ers could give a rip. Alex makes you mad and you want him to go away and stop talking about it over and over again so things can get back to the way you like it were CC is the good guy again. But CC isnt the good guy. It’s lies on top of lies to cover what many of the big bad SP’s have done. Alex can’t sing a different tune and you can’t cover it up with the same old song.

    Dialog here if you want respect. Tell us why you haven’t done anything to help Alex and if you have, why do you stand behind the Dove when it continues to tolerate a child molester in its ranks? You can’t have it both ways. If you have helped Al, you know the truth.

  47. Jeff Jones, Calvary Chapel Pastor said, “I feel he is under-handed, disrespectful, rude and rather carnal in his behavior. He has brought way too much harm too others (me now included) and no one seems to want to stop it. So…..goodbye.”

    I guess he “voted with his feet”…the Calvary Chapel recourse for all those hurt by CCSP’s.

  48. Not Alone said, “Dividing the posters here by email is akin to the old CC tactic of pulling an attender off to another room, fill him full of your version of the truth and send him on his merry way to fight your battle for you.”

    Yep.

  49. I agree Al, when I read the JJ one act play I actually LOL’d. It could not have been more obviuos. I could picture him with the backside of his hand on his forehead, elbow raised high, aghast with surprise and grief.

    “oh Alex, you feind” (not a real quote)

  50. Alex, I am so sorry for lying to you and then trashing you from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit.

    I am also sorry for telling you and your brother I believed you guys and then coming up with some lame excuse that the email didn’t go through and then doing an about face and siding with your abuser after promising to help.

    I got upset when you didn’t play ball and I took it personal and got pissed off. I figured “screw him, how dare he talk to me that way!” I’m just not used to getting treated in the manner you treated me.

    Please forgive me. I should’ve done the right thing, even if it was tough and I should have set a positive example as the mature believer and pastor instead of the path I chose. I should have been more gracious, more loving, more merciful and done whatever it took to make peace between us. I am called to a much higher standard as one who is anointed.

    The pile of testimonies from all those hurt people grieve me. I will do the right thing now and bring some discipline to Bob Grenier. You’re right, the Bible is clear about Qualifications of a pastor and my obligation as Bob’s pastor and spiritual elder to deal with this…for his sake and yours and all the other. I apologize for not acting sooner.

  51. Hey Al, Jeff is hurt by you and others also. Where does someone go about reporting such a thing?

    I hope he and they are ok, I mean the truth hurts but it will also set them free, I heard somewhere.

    I’m going to moderate myself now. Sorry Jeff and AV for all the sarcasm it’s just to hard to stay silent with the extreme drama you have brought here.

  52. Dare to dream :smile:

    Unfortunately the “real” Real Chuck Smith says, “Get a life! You yappy little dog!!!” and calls on God to vaporize me and the Christianity Today reporter etc.

    There’s Ideal and Mythology and Dreaming…and their is hard cold Reality.

  53. Not Alone said, “Hey Al, Jeff is hurt by you and others also. Where does someone go about reporting such a thing?’

    I suggest Jeff files a complaint with Roger Wing at CCOF and spill his guts. Maybe he can call Gary Ruff, Raul Ries and David Rosales and spill his guts there also. Then he spend about 7 years trying to get some sort of satisfaction…and then he can have a meeting with Chuck Smith. The end result?

    “Hey Jeff Jones, GET A LIFE!” ;-)

  54. Thanks “The Real Chuck Smith” for telling the truth and apologizing, said no one ever.

  55. “Three “elders” of CC were on their way to defrock Grenier when stopped by Smith personally because the last voice in his ear was a friend of Grenier. AB is well aware of this as are the people who sourced this for me. That is appalling… but those are the facts.”

    No one disputes this but AV goes on and on trying to threaten Michael into getting rid of Alex permanently. How can a supposed “man of God” act this way? The answer: he’s a Calvary Chapel Paster.

    Good luck with this battle Al. They don’t care what has been done to you and your brothers. They just don’t like you, Bob could have molested all of them and thier kids and they would still be more mad at you.

    You will be a great attorney

  56. Someone said on another blog something to the effect of “coming to grips” with the fact that life is hard in response to dealing with abuse.

    It;s not about the abused , it’s about the abuser.
    If I recall, the Bible says that when we have offended someone, we need to make it right with them before coming to the altar and coming to God.
    That hasnt happened.

    It reminds me of a dysfunctional family where there is an abusive parent, and each family member develops a role to play -like a web of deceit enabling the abuser to continue and unconsciously in doing so protecting the abuser. So this is not about Alex. Why is the focus swtiched form the abuser to the beaten sheep? Because thats how the abuser is protected. Many of us here have experience with this.

    This is not about Alex, it is about the abuse, and many of us here have been down that road. Have we been so numbed to not see what the problem is? What about all the cover up and lies?
    We are supposed to be set apart and sanctified and different than the world. We look no different. It is a sad state of affairs when a organizational structure is manipulated to fit into a faulty system. What happened to the “Moses Model” Was it a failure after all? Didn’t Moses come down with the 10 Commandments and wasn’t “Thou shall not lie” one of them?
    I am still pondering the fact that it had been said (and I hope can be substantiated) that CC said that CC do not have affiliates. One of the pages on this blog lists all the affiliates from the affiliates own websites where they state they are affiliates of CCCM. So what about that and the fact that this letter to the “affiliates” states it as such?
    How can this system be trusted if the weeds are not pulled at the root?

  57. Hannah, you hit the nail on the head.

    Though shall not lie.

    So profound yet so simple. Grace is waiting for those who confess and repent of their sins but I personally have a hard time just forgetting these huge lies when they haven’t been copped to.

  58. Andrew- yes, like lifting a rug and sweeping the dirt under it. It’s hidden but it’s still there.
    It is the worst form of bullying when the wrong person is protected.

    Want to post a quote that just a minute ago appeared on Forbes website.
    Profound timing.

    “There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it”
    - William James

  59. “They don’t care what has been done to you and your brothers. They just don’t like you, Bob could have molested all of them and thier kids and they would still be more mad at you.”

    Welcome to the Spin Zone! Nothing could be farther from the truth. Personally, I would like to see Bob Grenier defrocked, un-doved, bankrupt, imprisoned, spayed and neutered. It would be joyful news to hear that Alex is reunited with his mom. An apology from Chuck Smith would be icing on the cake.

    But that does not change the fact that Alex has come over to the PhxP and proven himself to be a total A**hole. He is a classic example of the wounded becoming the wounder.

  60. i say we all go over to phxp and prove ourselves assholes and make kevin and his friends over there feel important as they discuss it…

    just pour a little more salt on that wound now kevin… you self righteous putz

  61. I’ve said this so many times I should just cut and paste it. What they did to Alex on PP was horrendous. 2 CC bad guys who like most CC pastors have the gift of perfect religious speech, took over the mob and turned them on the victim. Just like the college kids at Penn State, they rioted and turned over cars until the blog was temporarily shut down. They did it because the blog owner stood his ground.

    I’ve had my beef with the Phoenix Preacher but I was impressed with his integrity and passion for the truth this time. He pleaded over and over to the mob to stop their crusade against the victim and remember what happened to the victims. I fear that it fell on deaf ears.

    I hope that any PP-er who reads this will go back over those two threads and see what those 2 CC pastors did to Alex because he sarcastically attacked their leader with words. Not with his fist, not because he molested anyone, not because he actually harmed anyone but because he made a bad joke out of frustration. He didn’t make this joke from a pulpit in front of a huge congregation, nor did he call the wrath of his God down on him. It was what they were (the 2 CC pastors) waiting for. They had been goading him from the start of the Idaho thread and when they got what they wanted they went into full attack mode. Doing what CC pastors do best, turn thier followers on anyone who doesn’t use the se religious speech patterns. AB and AV worked their magic on everyone but a few.

    AV even tried to cast doubt on the truth of the molestation claims. He will stop at nothing to make Alex go away and stop exposing the truth. AV and AB are despicably transparent sometimes in thier protection of the abusers but have laid on enough of the right words over a period of time to gain the favor of the rest of the mob. Alex doesn’t speak thier language, he couldn’t if he tried.

    Like the authorities at Penn State (besides the blog owner and a few) they want this covered and ignored. Make it go away by shutting up the Victim. Protect the perp and his superiors as long as it takes to make it fade into the past.

    CC has its Sandusky, it’s Patterno and the other no name wannabies to support their crimes. I hope the few confused good people left out of the mob on PP can see this. Can see that AV and AB are trying to cover the backside of thier leader and his molesting subordinate.

    Prays for your strength PP.

  62. OK, let me see if I’ve got this straight: I believe what Alex and his brothers have gone through is despicable, and that BG should get a swift, huge, collective, left foot of fellowship and an apology from CS. I also believe that Alex lashes out like a wounded dog at those who would like to befriend and support him, and yes, acts like an ass.

    And that makes me a self-righteous putz. Got it.

  63. “And that makes me a self-righteous putz. Got it”

    Yep, you got it…

  64. Kevin, Alex can be and most the time is overbearing. He is right and telling the truth. The real world truth. It’s pretty redicoulous that your mob can turn on his avatar when the real guy has been abused so harshly in the real world. I’m glad you see Bob Grenier for what he is, try backing Alex instead of attacking him, that’s wear your money meets your mouth (or fingers at it were).

  65. Ya, I can be an a-hole no doubt. Learned from the best. Got a refresher course from Papa Chuck and the rest of the CC “leadership” who are supposed to be in charge of dealing with CC a-hole pastors like Bob Grenier.

  66. Not Alone said, “I’ve had my beef with the Phoenix Preacher but I was impressed with his integrity and passion for the truth this time. He pleaded over and over to the mob to stop their crusade against the victim and remember what happened to the victims. I fear that it fell on deaf ears.”

    Yes, Michael has been torn in many directions over this and lobbied like you wouldn’t believe from even folks close to Bob Grenier to turn on me. Michael knows I’m an a-hole, but he’s also seen all the testimonies and evidence of Bob Grenier’s garbage and Michael knows the truth about how CC stone walls, shuffles the deck and outlasts those who have a legit beef. Look at Heitzig. Michael’s biggest beef with me is disrupting the community over there for folks he cares about like London, Kevin and many others who see it as more of a Club to fellowship in, express gripes, vent on things, support each other in prayer and just hang out. I am sorry for the collateral damage to those folks and to Michael in that area.

    Unfortunately, the other side of the PhxP is the Calvary Chapel stuff…that no matter how hard anyone tries…it’s a part of the DNA and the stuff comes up and the wounds are deep…and the patronizing CC pastors don’t help, some often pour gasoline on the fire.

    I think Michael’s last statement was extremely powerful and true and shows me that he is the man of conviction I thought he was…even when some have tried to manipulate him by boycotting etc (speaking of the CC pastors, not the regular folks).

    Hey, there is some sense of satisfaction in knowing there is one guy outside of this Group who didn’t waffle when push came to shove with our situation (that guy being Michael). It will cost him. His CC ‘friends’ will bail on him (not Centy, but I’m sure most of the rest) if he sticks to his hard-line on that issue.

  67. Steve Wright CC Lake Elsinore, you’ve got some good qualities, but you are also a pompous a-hole. Being a good bible teacher and a good steward of the money at your church is admirable. Gotta give credit where it’s due.

    The beef I have with you is that you are much like me…and that should disqualify you from being a Pastor. I don’t think you’ve ever once copped to being wrong or sinning at any time in this ordeal and you’re quick on the sword, like Peter cutting off the ear.

    I like those qualities in my lawyer, my wingman at a bar, or my guy behind the pawn counter….not in my “pastor”. Think about that.

  68. Gene Schneider (MLD), I don’t really have a real beef with you. I feign being offended b/c part of the dynamic over there was fun jostling with guys like you who aren’t pastors and in spiritual authority and an “official” CC affiliate representative.

    You’re welcome here any time. I banned you that one time b/c you messed with my bro Paul who has not done anything near deserving your ire and hasn’t at all bothered you or the others there at PP.

    You can take shots at me all you want and challenge me all you want. You usually provide a good opportunity to contrast things and show the error in what you are positing.

  69. “His CC ‘friends’ will bail on him (not Centy, but I’m sure most of the rest) if he sticks to his hard-line on that issue.”

    I think he might this time. His blog is no longer his only baby. That’s a good thing for him and the truth. But freinds, even cyber ones, can sway even the strongest pillars of truth. I hope he takes the CC road and silently lets this pass for awhile.

  70. Kevin McCullers, I’ve got no beef with you other than you sticking your nose in the other day. I expressed how I felt about it and it was offensive. I apologize for being offensive toward you. I’ll probably do it again if you come at me the way you did last time…doesn’t excuse my response to you, I “should” absorb it and not respond in kind, but I know myself too well…and many times I probably will blast you. I won’t ever be a pastor or elder b/c I am not qualified…however, how I have treated you and others wouldn’t disqualify me from ministry in Calvary Chapel.

  71. NA, I won’t hold it against Michael if he regroups and revives the Community and keeps me banned….as long as when the topic of CC comes up, he sticks to his guns and reminds the CC guys what a disgrace the Bob Grenier situation still is. Then I don’t feel obligated to jump in and freak out.

    I did break the “rules” over there in a manner and I told Michael I have no problem with being banned, even requested it at one point. I just wanted it pointed out that the same CC Pastors freaking out about me being a jerk on their blog and making it the end of the world…have not even nearly expressed the same or similar outrage at what passes in their Camp with the examples of all the folks on here that have been chewed up and spit out.

    Part of what I was doing was illustrating the hypocrisy and inconsistency in real life. When the CC Guys got personally offended and “ABUSED” as they called it…that was a victory…b/c they used to question whether someone being an a-hole was “Spiritual Abuse”…now I’m guessing they would have to called it legit Abuse since they’ve labeled my a-hole-ness as “Abuse” toward them.

    I was pointing out the obvious…folks care when it happens to them…then it’s “Abuse” and must be dealt with in a disciplinary fashion….the CC Guys didn’t just “Get over it, move on, forgive, don’t be bitter, get a life” etc. They want blood.

  72. …the only frustrating part is it takes exampling and doing it to them to make the point since many of them are too insulated to understand the point any other way.

    Some of them feel a very mild version of what we’ve all felt for years. I hope some of them will think about that.

    If they think I’m an abusive a-hole…they should have walked in our shoes for a day with Bob Grenier. They’d want him stoned in the public square, not banned from a blog.

  73. “I am sorry for the collateral damage to those folks and to Michael in that area.”

    So I was collateral damage at my overly authoritarian CC, and now I’m collateral damage so CCSP could be taught a lesson. Hmm.

  74. Apples and oranges, but I’m sure it sucks for some of you none-the-less. I’m cool with being banned so you guys can have your online Club. Maybe the solution is banning me and the CCSP’s/Apologists…and just hosting the regular folks.

  75. Actually, I think I could play nice over there if it was CC Victims only and no CCSP’s (other than Centy).

  76. So I will take a shot at this.
    Alex, as I stated over at PP you claimed we don’t care and we don’t understand. My reply “Alex, initially we did care and voiced our support – but you and you alone are the one who killed that compassion and understanding in me and many others.

    The blame is on you, and no amounts of apology will change that – because you will soon return to your normal behavior… which has no control.

    No one on the blog has ever defended Bob G – you make that up. No one defends O.J. Simpson or Robert Blake… so what are you going to do?

    But here is where you are – Mel Gibson is a Jew hater and baiter. But you want anyone who goes to any movie, not just a Gibson movie stoned. And you keep ranting.

    No one on the blog goes to Bob Gs church, no one defends Bob G, but to you, to burn down any CC church is just as effective as burning down Bob G’s church.

    Nonsense, you have made this all about you.

  77. Gene, I don’t recall saying that you don’t care and don’t understand. I would say that some of the non-CC’ers have cared in the past….and some understand the dynamic more than others.

    I think that a guy like Steve Wright doesn’t understand how his participation as a CCSP who defends CC so much and has yet to this day excoriate Bob Grenier, his fellow affiliated CC Pastor, yet excoriates me…is offensive.

  78. MLD said, “The blame is on you, and no amounts of apology will change that – because you will soon return to your normal behavior… which has no control.”

    That’s the way we all feel about Bob Grenier and Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel leadership in general.

    An apology from CC would be a good start, but changes in actual behavior would certainly support the apology. But, apologies and admissions of wrongdoing are only for sucker Sheep, not CC Leadership.

  79. MLD said, “No one on the blog has ever defended Bob G – you make that up. No one defends O.J. Simpson or Robert Blake… so what are you going to do?”

    Your memory is not very good (as I point out often).

    FYI (Ron Arbaugh Pastor of CC San Antonio) gave quite a vigorous defense of Bob Grenier and never retracted it or released another statement that confirmed he was wrong.

    AV (Steve Wright Pastor of CC Lake Elsinore) has questioned the validity of the allegations against Bob Grenier, despite all the details that have been release from many people other than me. Steve questioned it very recently, which is a defense. Steve also defends Chuck Smith’s handling of the situation by withholding criticism of Chuck Smith over the lack of action.

    Sometimes it is the SILENCE of the CC guys that speaks volumes. Many times it’s their words of actual defense. I can copy and paste many examples if you’d like…

  80. MLD said, “No one on the blog goes to Bob Gs church, no one defends Bob G, but to you, to burn down any CC church is just as effective as burning down Bob G’s church.”

    No, unfortunately Bob Grenier is a microcosm of many other CCSP’s who have done the same or similar things…as evidenced by the massive participation on this blog…2 Million hits to date…and over 140,000 unique IP’s.

  81. “I apologize for being offensive toward you. I’ll probably do it again if you come at me the way you did last time.” Gee thanks…I think.

  82. If someone had the username “Chuck Smith’s Disciple” or “John MacArthur’s Disciple”, would we not rightly laugh and try to correct the guy?

    Why then doesn’t anyone correct someone that calls himself “Martin Luther’s Disciple”?

    Yes, I know it’s off-topic. But c’mon. If I was “Chuck Smith’s Disciple”, I’d be ridiculed to no end. And rightly so.

    Didn’t some guy named Jesus call people to be His disciples? Just checking.

  83. You all can rant all you want. As long as CC pastors keep their power and no one ends up in jail or loose a lawsuit, they could care less what any of you say or think. Will your actions hurt them? Maybe or just a little bit. But in the long run as someone said here “He who has the gold, makes the rules”

  84. Yes, they could care less what I think. Except for the fact that churches in many other systems are just as full as some CCs are. So when I avoid CC because of all these problems they have, it’s as if CC doesn’t exist at all. And then I don’t care what they think.

  85. Alex, I’ve been on record more than once ststing my belief that you should have been banned from the PP.

    My heart truly goes out to you and your brothers for what you have experienced at the hands of BG. I had an abusive father who was an alcoholic and to this day my life has been influenced as a result of what happened decades ago. Even in light of my father getting sober via AA and calling me personally to ask forgiveness as he worked through his 12 steps.

    When he died 16 years ago my uncle and I were the two who spoke at my father’s memorial. We had made peace and were on as good of terms as possible. My father never had it in him to be demonstrative verbally or physically. I never hugged him and I accepted him as he was as he did me. I never had the father many readers had or still have.

    You may never see changes or repentance from BG. So you’re the victim who has to live with the realities of who he is and what he has done as do your brothers. Your relationship with your mother has been damaged so you’ve essentially lost her until things change.

    You know I have my own blog and that it reaches out to believers with mental illness. I try to help victims of illness and stigma by providing a place for them to visit and be encouaged and possibly learn some things that may of be of value to them in their personal circumstances.

    I say all of that to say this. I believe you are a deeply damaged man and I believe it might be time for you to seek professional counseling. I say that while not inferring you’re crazy or anything else that would be insulting. You’re pretty much an open book about yourself but I don’t recall you mentioning if you’ve ever been through any counseling.

    Allan

  86. Allan, been through much counseling. I was shocked to find out I’m quite sane. I was sure I was crazy.

    I choose not to let it go and never will. I’ll always press the issue until BG cops to it, something is done with him, he croaks and CC makes some changes with how they handle folks who have a “problem” with a CCSP.

  87. Willy, I agree, reporting the stuff and ranting only does a little…but it does something. You’re right jail and lawsuits, those are much more effective which is why it’s important to speak up if anyone in CC or who has left CC has information about criminality…and if anyone has been molested by a CC volunteer, employ etc they should hold CC accountable for not making sure the System is safe for kids. Some CC’s are, many aren’t.

  88. MLD said, “No one on the blog goes to Bob Gs church, no one defends Bob G, but to you, to burn down any CC church is just as effective as burning down Bob G’s church.”

    Several folks on PP used to go to BG’s CC franchise. I won’t name them.

    Every CC and especially CC leadership has some responsibility for Bob Grenier being an official undisciplined affiliate. When CC sets a tone that a guy like BG can get away with it, it speaks volumes.

    The fact is the “New” CC articulates that CCOF was there to resolve “problems” and the new Ecclesiastical Structure of Cardinals promotes the same thing. So, deal with the “problems” and bring accountability. If CC can’t find a problem with Bob Grenier, then there isn’t really much use in lying and saying CC will deal with problems.

  89. Alex,
    The problem is, that you treat us ALL as if we were members of Bob’s church and as if we were all supporting him by attendance, giving money and rallying behind him.

    If you have a beef, it’s with your mom and all the other folks who go every Sunday to sit at Bob’s feet and drop money in his plate. The very folks who could indeed take care of the problem if they wanted to… but they don’t.

    Beat those folks and leave the rest of us alone.

  90. MLD, what part do you not understand about the CC guys on there who still act as if all is well in CC Land?

    It’s like a Member of the KKK hanging out with some black dudes in a “Community” and telling them they aren’t like the other guys in their Association and to just get over it.

  91. You are the expert at retrieving quotes. Show me one CC person who has ever said there are no problems in CC land?

    My point is why are you not taking this problem to the attendees of CCV, with just as much vigor? Why do you let them off the hook? Look, if Chuck Smith defrocked Bob tonight, that still does not eliminate him and his church. The same thing will be going on.

    You are constantly barking up the wrong tree – and you don’t just limit your comments to CCSPs – you grind up everyone who will not goose step along with you.

  92. MLD, you act like the only things I’ve done is post on PP with our gripes. I’ve reported the stuff many times on local forums, left reviews of my experiences on review sites etc, communicated directly with many local folks to warn them etc. A bunch have left after being convinced there is a real problem. Estimated at about half at one point. The CC Brand attracts more folks who are in the dark and in danger…so the process is ongoing. There are folks in Visalia (many) who are always warning others as they can.

    Some choose to stay at CCV with knowledge of the allegations, many still don’t know about the stuff. One thing is certain Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel know about the stuff, they say they have CCOF and now the New CC Structure to deal with “problems”…so I’ll submit the stuff again to Damian Kyle and see if they found Jesus this time around.

  93. I also think it’s kind of insulting to some on the PP who have been hurt by CC when the CC guys gloss over the stuff and patronize as if it’s not their problem, not a big deal and not a responsibility of Chuck Smith or CCOF to deal with it and bring resolution.

  94. So what purpose does blowing up the PP for the 3rd time serve – if not just Alex’s way or you die?

  95. The CC guys there make comments about Chuck’s “integrity” etc. That is insulting when Chuck is on record (and I’m cutting and editing the soundbites to show how Chuck speaks out of both sides of his mouth) as stating many times emphatically that he isn’t responsible for nor does he control the Movement or have authority…then the CCSP’s System-wide get an email from Chuck (lucky them, their email went through) telling them the “changes he has made”.

    Some of us have been gullible in the past, but c’mon, that’s insultingly blatant lying.

  96. MLD said, “So what purpose does blowing up the PP for the 3rd time serve – if not just Alex’s way or you die?”

    I expressed myself and got carried away and didn’t follow the “rules” of the Group. I didn’t ask Michael to shut down the blog, nor do I want him to. I think banning me is a just outcome when I cross the lines that have been articulated. However, I think Michael understands that the PhxP has a dual identity and that it’s very hard to speak the truth to power as he stated when the new dynamic is to gloss over (by some not all) the blatant lying, duplicity and garbage being in CC and from Chuck’s own mouth being tolerated now…even by the “good guys”.

  97. “and not a responsibility of Chuck Smith or CCOF to deal with it and bring resolution.”

    I am a CC outsider, but from my view, it looks like CS and CCOF have dealt with it – you just don’t like the result. It’s my understanding that there have been several conversations about this within CC.

  98. MLD, Chuck said in front of Dave Rolph, Janet Carter and my brother that he “believes” us. It is even worse that he believes the allegations then and doesn’t act. That’s evil. How do you resolve that? It’s OK for a CCSP to do all those things w/o impunity and be a Pastor?

  99. And, MLD, I have piles and piles of other CC non-member member testimonies and situations that were ignored by CCOF…yet Chuck Smith proclaims in his email that CCOF used to handle “problems”…and that the new CC will as well.

  100. Roger Wing of CCOF never returned any of my correspondence and calls etc and didn’t interview anyone. I had to fight scratch and claw to get granted an appearance before his highness Chuck Smith…then told he believed us…then told to submit to his authority…then given the “my email didn’t go through” b.s. and then the about-face and bashing me from the CCCM pulpit and then playing the “well I don’t know now” game b/c he’s ticked I didn’t take his bull and I outed his approaching his Board years ago and telling them he wanted to leave his wife Kay for another woman (sourced info from CC insiders). Don McClure, ironically, has knowledge of this adultery thing with Chuck from many years ago. Talk about a lack of “integrity” and lying to the public.

  101. Wow, Steve Wright (AV) and John Schaeffer (A Believer)…both CC guys, one a pastor, one employed by The Word For Today (and a friend of the Smith family) are laying it on thick. It’s giving me flashbacks to Rhetoric and Persuasion classes of old.

  102. Alex,
    And that is your problem. Many have good things to say about the PhoenixPreacher, regardless of sides taken – but to you, the Phoenix Preacher is just your toilet.

    I disagree with both AV and AB on many issues and we have had some great, lively debates – but we are still friendly and I have off line relationships with both of them – a concept that escapes you totally.

  103. MLD, I’ve had “many lively discussions” with many folks there as well and many are FB friends, just not your clique. I have several friends from PP that I know offline as well.

    You seem to lack the ability to compartmentalize and separate the issues.

    I get torqued (mostly) when it’s CC in-your-face stuff and I tend to not let stuff slide that is total b.s.

  104. alex
    banning from Phoenix Preacher is the ultimate act of trying to silence you and your story. Michael may say he’s attempting to ‘keep the peace’, but it’s at your expense and the expense of the truth so the psudonymous CC ‘pastors’ (be honest about who you are and don’t hide- it’s called integrity) can participate without ‘feeling’ guilty for not getting as far from CC as they possibly can. keeping peace by avoiding or silencing truth is ‘not’ honest or godly. how dare they attack you.

    they want the personal (ego) and financial benefits of the ‘brand’ but they have to ‘pimp’ you and the other victims out to mainitain them. they have to shut you up so they don’t have to actually ‘do’ anything that might jeoprodize their position. how dare they talk about ‘integrity’… they don’t know what the word means.
    - your fellow bannee from the PP community, mike

  105. Ironic that the PP crowd has chosen to come over here to condemn Alex. A pattern we have seen before. I copy/pasted Centy’s point from there to here because Michael has me banned there and I think Centy’s voice is an important one in this subject (his is the witness of a CC pastor who feels marginalized by the changes being made by the powers that be).

    Alex copy/pasted since he can’t make a point there without being bullied by the CCites calling for his head – as they called for mine.

    Their MO is to threaten to leave if someone (me, Alex, anyone else) isn’t muzzled/banned. In return, Michael, wanting to lead some sort of on-line “community” follows their lead and bans.

    I think it may be better that I am banned there since they can’t make an accusation of unethical behavior if I copy/paste. I don’t see how it’s unethical for Alex to do the same, banned or not, but they will make the charge nonetheless.

    All of the smoke and mirrors aside, what about Centy’s point? We have focused on the rich and powerful (ie, those who Chuckles chose from the start) and ignored the weak and poor pastors who labor away day by day. They feel their opinion isn’t being consulted and it in’t.

    That’s the nature of CC. They follow the secular world’s golden rule – Smith has the gold and he rules.

  106. Doug, yes, isn’t it interesting that a guy like Grendal Hanks uses the same tactics he accuses me of. Grendal “TheAbuser” Hanks should be his new moniker, if we are going to define “abuse” by his standard.

    I’ve experienced real abusiveness…so have many others. Grendal’s threshold is pretty low. It means Hannity and Colmes was an abusive show LOL.

    It’s ironic b/c Grendal Hanks claims to be a non-conformist, yet he’s bought into the part of the PP Group-think that can occur, led by some of those who have a pro-CC Agenda.

  107. I’m actually cool with being banned. I felt an obligation to counter the spin and b.s. as kind of a stewardship issue when I knew I was allowed to participate. I did have to put up with a lot of what Grendal Hanks and some others would call “abuse” by responding in kind and turning it up a notch. It was like a gang-bang often and I’m a fighter.

  108. The new list of CC regional guys is just a group of stanch yes men-yes men to Chuck Smith and the entire CC agenda/Moses Model. Look at the names, I see not one name whom does not fit this bow at Chuck’s feet- “my way or the high way”- ” if you don’t like the way we do things here there is the door “- ” the Lord directs the pastor as to how to spend the money and to question is to be divisive” team. They have all been thrown a little power cookie for being such good boys over the years. Nothing will change. For any change to happen in anything one must first admit there is a problem- they do NOT think there is a problem, just those who disagree with them who are ” divisive” and “sent by the Enemy” .

  109. I go to ccgolden springs. Thought I would share this. Ever since I got saved I’ve noticed at my church that pastor Raul never stops in the hall ways. He pretty much jogs to get to his car. I once saw a man try to walk to the front of the pulpit to ask him a question as two of the ushers stormed jn front of pastor Raul like he was president Obama. I love the Lord and I’m as big as sinner as there is but how are the bibles in our book store priced three times more than Borders? And wouldn’t Jesus flip over tables in the Cafe, book store or merchandise sold in the fellowship hall? It’s been driving me mad for months now. Im around many hurting people and it sucks to see my pastor has like three different cars and some of us don’t even have gas to get to church. And also driving by a skate park on a Tuesday afternoon working a 12 hour shift seeing the pastors son working hard… At skateboarding. Traveling all over the world with his dad while us down here at the bottom are selling cans and wife’s gold to pay bills. I don’t want to come off like I’m coveting but I always thought materials weren’t supposed to be so important to a true man of the lord. If that’s the case I wish my pastor would come down from his club box at harvest to sit with us peasants. Kinda frustrating. .

  110. I hear ya, Freddy. Our ex-CC pastor put a boat load of money into buying the latest, greatest, and most expensive stuff for his house. Turns out he was stealing money from the church and he got to keep the stuff he bought. Plenty of people are very disturbed by his greed and lack of compassion on those in need.

  111. Freddy says: @ # 109
    August 8, 2012 at 12:01 am
    ________________________
    Ya its heartbreaking isn’t it. The preaching and the doing -the talking and the walking just ain’t the same is it…all the talk of ” not building your own little kingdom” that I’ve heard CC pastors preach ad nauseaum over the years. But that is exactly what they do. I remember my ex pastor here in NorCal once said that our church didn’t believe in having a benevolent fund to help those in the body there who may find themselves in hard times ( like getting their electricity turned off due to unemployment or something, some churches would pay a months service to help the brother/sister until they got on their feet) because he said the Lord is trying to teach that person something and helping them is getting in the way of Gods work in their life. Gee yet all his kids have been put through the MOST expensive universities in the country. They have traveled all over on vacation, Hawaii, Ireland, all over Europe etc.
    This pastor was also huge on mission trips and of course his kids got to go free (paid by the Church)…but anyone else from the body that went ( doing the Lord’s work and representing this CC) had to pay full price. And no we never got to see “the books”.
    Shame about Raul, as a young Christian I looked up to him and listened to his tapes and thought he was such a man of God. I’ve become so disillusioned…I expect all this type stuff from the world, CEO’s and politicians but we are to expect different of the leaders in the Body of Christ- God’s Word tells us to expect and demand better but we see it (better) so seldom it seems.

  112. The last 2 posts have touched on truths that people at these CC’s just won’t talk about.
    I have heard people say that the Pastor say that he was “blessed” by all the freebees he recieved. The mention Abraham…and his riches receieved from the Lord to support the extravagant lifestyle.

    What he doesn’t mention….
    I don’t think the attendees have any idea just how much in a++ets the Pastor has.
    I know he has bragged about being debt free. Mortgage free. And he makes it appear as if this is because he is a good steward, as an example for all of us. Of course!

    Freddie,

    Kids go to the Christian school for free. And college too. Imagine how much in savings that is alone. Why do the Pastors kids get to go for school for free ? Why is this? Is it because the Levites had no land and therefore no income ;) Surely some are more able to pay for college than we are.
    He ties on conferences with family vacations, mentions the car dealership from the pulpit (maybe gets a free car), going to basketball games and sitting in the front row with his kids, owning a boat, owning condo’s on the beach, hanging out around with “celebrities”, taking cruises in Israel for free hile everyone else pays 30% more (to pay for them), mentions his dentist for free veneers, mentions his jeweler from the pulput for discounts for his wifes jewelry, huge Christmas bonuses, 3 figure saleries, %ages from sales of CD’s and DVD’s of their services, separate “circuit” saleries,etc etc. I know some Pastors who play golf several times a week. What average hard working man can do that? And some that go to the gym every day too.
    With all those benefits, think of the advantages they have over all of us “peasants”
    They are more like the Pope than the Levites. Now there are many Pastors who do not live this lifestyle. But we can agree we have experienced this.

    Why does it matter? Because there are real people in need. And the church is supposed to be a place to help others less fortunate than we are, and it ought to begin at “home”.

    You touched on the greatest injustice IMO.

  113. Besides pediophiles, they should also flag and ban the homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, the sexually immoral, the murderers, liars and the slanderers from the any pastor, eldership,leadership and any teaching positions. After all, you know that you believe that “Justice triumps over mercy;” therefore, you should also pray to God, “Judge me for what I have thought and done against your law and do not have mercy on me.” You should be proud of being all knowing and excellent accusers and judges!

  114. Donnie, shall we allow the peodophile take your kids on a mission trip to Taiwan? (Or was it Thailand?)

    You are mixing issues.

  115. Hey Freddy you still going to calvary chapel golden springs? I have recently noticed what you are talking about.

  116. No church is perfect and all humans are sinners and hypocrites at times. Instead of wasting your energy complaining about your church, cricicizing your pastors, and generally sewing discord, why don’t you (1) pray for your pastors, (2) get involved in ministry so you can be leaders in your local church and effect positive change, and (3) take the beam out of your eyes.

    Lots have people have been hurt by their church leadership and you are no different. And to “Hannah” who talks about all the freebies pastors get – most pastors in the Calvary Movement are NOT making six figures. They make significantly less than that. Many pastors choose to serve in underprivileged communities where the public school education is lacking and the only way they can afford to send their children to a private christian school is through scholarships offered to pastors. Many pastors cannot afford healthcare for their families and go to doctors for “free” to get basic healthcare. Pastors carry a burden that congregants cannot fathom and many have their own serious health issues like diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. Didn’t know that? Its probably because most pastors don’t complain about it because they consider it their duty and obligation in service to the Lord and they serve gladly.

    I hate to see people throw everyone under the bus because of a few bad apples. Consider the good you all could do if you put your energies to constructive use instead of to destructive talk.

  117. Thank you “Agape” and Donnie, with the exception of your comments, I felt like I needed a shower after reading all this filth! I was truly hoping, as I kept reading, that the contributors [oxymoron] to this site would repent and embrace the heart of the LORD. I have always been taught that if a tree produces fruit, “don’t cut it down!” Other than the information data on regional leaders at the beginning, and the need to protect our children, and finally the comments of Donnie and Agape, this site is for bulldozers with red canes! Nevertheless, I write this for a personal purpose… not that I think the webmaster will post it.

  118. #118 Filth? Your eyes are ‘blind’ imo. I think you have not ‘heard’ a thing here —.

  119. Agape:

    Unfortunately how correct you are-no church is perfect and we are all sinners.

    However when your congregation is paying your salary said congregation has a right to answers if suddenly money is going out of the backdoor, people are being abused and you are not doing your job right – the same way if you were employed in any other job. Big difference a pastor is employed in the Lord’s work and should set an example.

    (1) Most of us do pray for the pastors.Where they pray for us I dont know.
    (2) Most of us were in ministry work either full time or volunteering
    (3)its nothing to do about taking the beam out of ones eye its bringing attention to wrong doings in the church/If I do something wrong I expect to be accountable this is a major problem in calvary “No accountability”

    Lets look at “Hannahs” remark about freebies.

    I can only address CC Tel Aviv so lets do that.
    This is not a mega-church, heck if you blink you miss the people who regularly attend.
    According to “Careersbliss” calvary pastors make an averabe 32K a year – not a great deal I agree.
    Now Calvary Tel Aviv would have a hard time scrapping together 1K ayear
    so salary is coming out of donations or tithes.
    Pastors tourist apartment with air conditioning near seafront Tel Aviv- 90 us dollars a day.
    90 x 31 days =2700 usd a month ( we were told once that they got a discount but we checked with the landlord and his words quote”I can rent this apartment ten times over especially in the season, why would I give a discount”)
    2700 usd a year = 32,400.00 us dollars , 400 dollars over the average salary (if they were getting it) add food, clothing, airfares back and forward to the states three times a year, medical bills etc. etc.???Car hire for travel back and forward from tel aviv to Haifa.
    We wont go into the times they travelled back and forward to conferences and senior pastors meetings.
    Normally a pastor would have to pay his living expenses out of his 32K
    -right?
    So maybe not alot of what could be classed as “freebies” but a heck of alot of “extras” coming out of donations.

    Re “Hannahs” remark re free education for children in christian school. Foreign pastors whoes children attend school usually go to the Church of Scotland Tabitha church in Jaffa and are asked to pay a darn sight less than a normal kid or kid from the diplomatic service so its a freebie one way or another.

  120. I wonder if JESUS would sound like what I read in this crusade of bitterness? I have never found a man yet that was perfect aside of JESUS… I wonder why JESUS said, “He who is without sin, cast the first stone.”..? I think most of the words spoken here in this site are filthy when compared to JESUS’ words… Certainly there ought to be consequences for the outright assault against young people by people who have a leadership role at Calvary… and those who don’t too! Whether it is Bob G. or Dino C., or anyone who does these things, they need to be stopped and put away… but, to speak of men like pastor Chuck, or any leaders and authority is prohibited according to the Scriptures… so… who is right here by this awful site? You…? or the LORD? Many of you speak as if you do not have sin in your life… Wow! … do you know what Scripture says about that? I found this site by accident… and I am wondering if this is some political site of the socialist democratic party or something? No one here is bashing Obama, who signed into law many of the gay agendas… or no one is bashing men like Alan Ginsberg, Benny Hinn, or Robert Tilton, or Kenneth Hagin, Larry Lee, or Gloria Steinem, [sorry about the spelling: I don't really pay that much attention to these characters, so I don't know how to spell them]. I am saddened that you have so much time on your hands that all you have time for is bash saints who bore fruit and are bearing still… I am sorry for those on this site that have so much bitterness! It is not I that is blind… the WORD of GOD declares by your language, that it is you that is blind. And, because I don’t think this site is Christian… I think it is time to flee… nothing good can become of it, or of the people who perpetuate it…

    I guess that is all I wish to contribute to this inquisition or crusade of bitterness… May the LORD judge you as you have judged…! That sounds fair!

  121. Bryan Gaston:
    Lights go on when I read your post.
    It reminds me of check smith and his “touch not the Lords appointed”.
    Anyone who suggests something is wrong immediately becomes the problem.
    Hebrews 13:17 -obey your leaders submit to them.
    Romans 13:1-2 -let every person submit to authority.
    So with these and other scriptures ringing in our ears we tell ourselves that we are out of line-i must obey-who am I to question.
    This type of thinking is a symptom of living under leadership that legislates and demands obedience to their authority.
    It is a false basis of authority.
    Matthew 23:1-they have seated themselves in the chair of Moses.
    Jesus’s reply is twofold.
    (1) they have seated themselves n a position ONLY given by G-d.
    (2) their authority was not founded on the fact they were was discerning and true.it was based on the fact they TOOK authority and therefore were in charge.
    What a convenient system.you are in control even if you are not qualified or f you have problems for example in your own family.
    In the OT this worked well.Jesus however established a new form of authority.it was no longer age or gender or race or money or who you were it was based on EVIDENCE of the Holy Spirit,maturity,wisdom,genuine e holiness and real knowledge.
    Because I say so because I am the pastor doesn’t cut it anymore.
    SO
    If my basis of authority is because I hold office I have a false basis of authority.

    We forget the model Jesus provided.He simply came and spoke the truth.the basis of His authority was clearly not role office or position because He had none of these things.

  122. [quote]I wonder if JESUS would sound like what I read in this crusade of bitterness? I have never found a man yet that was perfect aside of JESUS…[/quote] +1.. I am appalled at what I see, may those that have such a dark heart remember how fast rhadamanthine justice can be brought on all of us. For me, I was saved @ CCD in 1979, you do the math. Jeff Johnson married my wife in the 80′s. Trust me, I am no great spokes person for God, though I try. Reading what has been written by bitter people, maybe they need to put on some ice skates before walking on the ice, you are out of control. Maybe you will have the energy and love to stand before your crowd days before death and preach love, forgiveness and hope, you are missing it now! RIP Chuck, what you left behind sadly is a different type of Cancer.. by THEIR choice. See you on the other side!

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