Jul 062011

Judging: What does the Bible say about it? Guys like Bob Grenier, Raul Ries, Lance Cook, etc would like you to give them a pass when they sin and cover it over. Scripture? Not so much.

I received a comment on here admonishing me (and us) not to Judge and that we’re Crucifying good ‘ol Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia. I’ve heard the fear tactic in nearly the same form many times before. Nothing new. However, I thought this time around, I’d take the opportunity to show a brief synopsis of what the Bible “simply” says about Judging…and it’s not what the commenter and many others (like Bob) like to frame it as when the shoe is on the other foot.


The Infallible, Inerrant, Inspired Canonical Word of God seems to imply that the Church is to Judge these types of matters:

1 Corinthians 6:1-6

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers.

Commands to NOT Judge:

Matthew 7:1-5

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Luke 6:37

Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Commands TO Judge:

John 7:24

Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

Proverbs 31:9

Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Leviticus 19:15

You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.

Judge, but Judge yourself as well and don’t be a hypocrite:

Matthew 7:5

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Romans 2:3

Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Don’t Judge regarding Salvation if one professes belief:

James 4:12

There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Don’t Judge over petty stuff that doesn’t matter, there is Liberty:

Romans 14:1-13

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Christians will be Judged for what they’ve done, at the Bema Seat:

2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

I am grateful when I received the Gift of Repentance for other sins I’ve committed. If I was given over to anger, like Bob, or sexual perversion, I would hope someone would confront me and show me my error so I could repent:

Matthew 7:12

So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

We are to make a Judgment and beware of False Prophets (and I would submit that actions speak louder than words):

Matthew 7:15

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

We are not to Judge as the Pharisees Judged:

Matthew 9:11

And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

We are encouraged to Judge for the benefit of the brother:

James 5:19-20

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Paul the Apostle sure did Judge within the church:

1 Corinthians 5:1-3

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.

Sounds like the Bible “simply” says we might want to Judge some things…and we might want to Judge pastors who lie about sin and cover it over and remain in it.

 Posted by at 1:18 pm

  27 Responses to “To Judge or not to Judge: Don’t Judge! Judge! Attempting to sort out the confusion within Churchianity”

  1. This is a story I heard a long time ago.

    True Faith:

    A man was on his porch during a very heavy rain when a fire truck came and tried to get him to leave the house because they suspected a flood. The man stated, “I’ll be okay, God is with me.”

    The flood came and it was still raining, so the man had to get on the roof. A rescue boat came by and wanted the man to get in it. The man said, “That’s okay, I’ll be alright, God will take care of me”, so they left.

    Then it got so bad the man had to stand on his chimney. A helicopter came and lowered a rope latter. The men in the helicopter said, “Grab the ladder and come up, it will probably rain even longer.” However, the man still insisted and said, “I’ll be fine, I trust God.”

    Then the rain continued and the man drowned.

    The next thing he saw was God and the man said, “I trusted in you as a witness to others that you will protect me, if I were you I would be a little embarrassed right now.” God answered, “I am not embarrassed, I sent you a fire truck, a boat and a helicopter but you neither understood nor accept the help I sent you. If anyone should be embarrassed it should be you!”

    IMO the difference between judging rightfully and wrongly depends on how you understand the situation itself. You can either judge the situation by seeing the way it will make you appear to be a more Godly than you are; or you can judge it according to how simply God provides realistic Mercy and Love.

  2. There is a group that has formed on Facebook called Shiloh Friends. You may want to consider joining.

  3. Alex,
    I hope you would consider placing this link as part of your blogroll. it is an excellent resource in debunking christian spiritual abuse.


    ( |o )====:::

  4. @( |o )====::: so I guess according to your unbiblical website link Jim Jones, Paula White, Jim Baker, Name and Claim It pastors far and wide and all other heretical pastor/teachers. priests who molest kids and anyone who claims he is “anointed” by God should be obeyed and followed because to not do so is a sin against God ….you need to get your head checked ..you are a prime target for a Cult or for all we know may be one of those “plant a seed, give me all your money” dudes…and “piece” to you too.

  5. TheRegulator,

    “READY, FIRE… um, AIM???”

    …let’s do this, I’m going to spare you a whole lot more embarrassment and just ask you to read the site which is an EXPOSE of shepherding, especially as espoused within “the word faith movement”, and the earlier errors of Watchman Nee.

    The stated purpose of the site…

    “More and more people are becoming concerned with the rise of this theology because it has led to spiritual abuse, controlling church leadership and spiritual shipwreck. The goal of this website is to examine covering theology from an evangelical perspective without resorting to personal attacks or underhanded tactics.”

    if you’d like to post a retraction of your knee-jerk attempt at a spiritual smack down, now would actually be a good time.

  6. ( |o )====::: LOL–oh now I am not only supposed to “attack” as you call it- false teachers and “spiritual abusers” but am also not supposed to call into question anything YOU say because you will call it “attacking”. Here’s an “attack” for you- you sound like quite the “spiritual abusers” yourself if you would advocate folks sit under any and all “shepherding” because they are ” called by God “. YOU are part of the problem. And how about you “retract” your “covering and authority” nonsense….

  7. ‘Regulator’, do you understand English? He is not advocating anything of the sort. Go back and read it again. My goodness. This is a link to warn AGAINST such things.

  8. G, thanks for the link. Good topic to discuss.

    Regulator, don’t know what you’re smoking, but I want some 🙂 I think you mistread or misunderstood? Dunno. Chill bro.

    From G’s link. These are verses often used as Proof Texts for an Apostolic-type Authority Structure in many churches. Is their thesis sound? Is Apostolic Authority still appropriate today?:

    1Chron 16:22 – “Touch not the Lord’s anointed”
    Rom 13:1-7 – “Be subject to governing authorities”
    Heb 13:17 – “Obey your leaders and submit to them”
    Eph 4:8-16 – “God gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers”
    Mat 8:5-12 – “For I too am a man under authority”
    2Tim 2:11-12 – “If we endure we will reign with him”
    1Sam 15:22-23 – “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”
    Num 23:23 – “nor is their any divination against Israel”
    1Pe 2:13-14 – “Submit yourself to every authority”
    1Sam 24 – “I will not put my hand against my Lord, for he is the Lord’s anointed”

  9. Some “good” Judging goin’ on over at the Phoenix Preacher regarding CJ Mahaney and the Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) scandal:

    “Reformed dandy and co-founder of Sovereign Grace Ministries C.J. Mahaney stepped down last week…actually stepped away for awhile.

    Stepping down means you’re leaving, stepping away means you’re waiting for things to calm down before you go back to doing what you were doing before.

    Mahaney wrote on his blog that people had been complaining about him and his sinful behavior for years and it was time to deal with it.

    “Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me and informed me about offenses they have with me as well as other leaders in Sovereign Grace. These charges are serious and they have been very grieving to read. These charges are not related to any immorality or financial impropriety, but this doesn’t minimize their serious nature, which include various expressions of pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.”

    Inquiring minds should ask why, if people had been making these accusations for years, that he would decide to suddenly deal with them now?

    Because he knew this was coming.

    He may not be humble, but he’s not stupid, either.”


  10. Alex, I have been reading your blog on and off for about a year. While I don’t know all the details of your situation, I think I have an adequate general understanding.

    One question I have is whether you actually need a police investigation in order to get your allegations taken seriously by CC. As I understand the situation, currently you and your brother are largely the source of the allegations against Bob Grenier. This makes it easy for an organization either to ignore the allegations, or to claim that the allegations are false and originate in some kind of personal animus against Bob.

    Perhaps one route to consider would be an investigation by a neutral third party. Who that party might be, or who would pay for the investigation I don’t know. But let’s lay aside those questions for the moment.

    An investigation by a neutral third party would make it very difficult for an organization such as CC to ignore the findings. Such an investigation would include interviews with you and your brother and with other family members, friends, teachers, and anyone else who had knowledge of the situation. It could also include a review of medical records.

    Perhaps you could even make a “deal” with CC. In the event that the investigation found that the allegations were not substantiated, you and your brother would agree to “go away” and stop talking about the issue. In the event that the investigation found that the allegations were substantiated, CC would agree to take appropriate action.

    With an investigation conducted by a neutral third party, If CC refused such a deal, it would make them look bad. Or if CC refused to take action in the event that the allegations were substantiated, that also would make them look bad. If Bob refused to cooperate with the investigator, that would make him look bad. In any case, using a neutral third party would make it impossible for CC to reject the findings as being motivated by personal animus. The third-party report might also call into question how the church responds to such allegations, and include recommendations for reform.

    It’s just an idea. I don’t know if you’ve already looked into it, but if not, it might be worth considering.

  11. Hi Big Jim,

    Three Brothers. Me, Geoff and Paul, not two brothers. Geoff and Paul’s testimony is included on this blog.

    Dave Rolph of Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills says he did “an investigation” and that he “believes us”…but that nothing is currently criminally actionable…but there is no statute of limitations in the Kingdom of God.

  12. Regulator
    did you picket CBC?

  13. Alex,
    Thanks for checking the link, something “TheRegulator” couldn’t be bothered to do.
    I figured it would be a big resource to all if us who have encountered the mindset, especially those from groups like Shiloh

  14. TheRegulator,
    There is no possible way my initial post could be misunderstood, especially if you click through and read, but since you choose to dig your heels in and ignore the link to see for yourself let me use small words so even you can understand


    Here goes…

    “covering and authority”
    …now could I be any more clear and NOW will you check it out for yourself?

  15. Hi all

    I am the author of the CoveringAndAuthority.com. If anyone has any comments or suggestions for me I’m constantly revising and improving the website. I like critical comments as well because I want to have something that is absolutely rock solid.

  16. Leighton,
    Very glad to see you post here.
    Just to be clear so those who criticize your site without reading it have absolutely no confusion, your site is AGAINST the abuses and teachings of Covering & Authority movement which swept the church during the ’70’s, including the Shepherding of Basham, Mumford, Prince?
    ( |o )====::: (guitar guy, aka “G”)

  17. Leighon, I just added your site to the CCA blogroll.

    Interested in reading more on your site. From my initial reading, it looks like you’ve touched on some important dynamics (and errors) of common Evangelical perception, justification, application of the issue of “authority”…IMO.

  18. ( |o )====:::

    Thanks for the clarification on “covering and authority.”

    Until your post and ensuing posts to clarify your position, personally I had thought that you were talking about “duck and cover.” As such, every time you used that term, I would duck under my desk, squat, cover the back of my head with my hands…and wait for your next post or, a nuclear bomb to hit.

  19. Shecky, I remember doing that in Kindergarten! Good analogy.

  20. JSheck,
    Most of my posts are considered nuclear bombs 😉

  21. Are all CC senior pastors under Chuck Smith’s authority or is that an entirely different species…?

    I don’t have a prob with submitting to authority if that authoriy is in submission to God and their counsel/teaching lines up perfectly with scripture…and they don’t try to take the place of God in my life.

    “Don’t assume that because I’m blonde I’m dumb. I may well be dumb – just don’t assume it!” 😉

  22. Just wanted to say that I’m glad this section was added to the blog. This has to be explained over and over and over and over again…

    Link to “Covering and Authority” site is helpful, too.

  23. Grateful, yeppers. Just refer the many people who will show up and say, “Don’t judge!” to this article. I think it’s a pretty straightforward, from Scripture, synopsis that shows we are to judge in some cases and how to judge and why to judge etc. Can’t rip them verses out of the Scripture (as some would like).

  24. So “judging” to many would mean letting sin take precedent.
    When one judges, one must be sure the same sin is not prevalent in his
    own life and one must sure he is spiritually mature to deal with sin.
    These judging verses have been abused and used to allow the continuance
    of sin- which cannot be tolerated.

  25. FG, amen.

    The Judging verses are most often used by Pastors who want to protect their sinfulness and lying. My antennas are always up when I hear the Judging verses used out of context.

    It usually indicates manipulation to cover over sin, lying, abuses, corruption etc.

    The “Gossip” canard, same. Tactics by those who don’t want to be exposed, often times.

  26. Alex, #25 and FG #24

    Ditto on both comments. Heck, double ditto!!

  27. best massage seattle 2011

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