Aug 282012

The Voices are at it again. One's saying "I need my coffee" I've gotta run 🙂

Much goin’ on right now, so the Voices are hollering and competing for attention 🙂

1. My friend Michael Newnham has relaunched with a super-moderated site which is a good direction and evolution for him and the Community there. It’s very difficult to have it be the “old” PhoenixPreacher with a “new” PhoenixPreacher. The Calvary Chapel Pastors and the dynamic of the PhoenixPreacher 2.0 (the new version is really a totally new OS or a 3.0) was one Trigger after another after another….for some. Bob Grenier pretty much made the decision easier for Michael by his recent intimidation. It has worked in silencing Michael and others regarding Bob’s issues…a tactic that has served ‘ol Bob well over the years. Bob, you don’t have to sue Michael, Grendal, Reuben and the others now…your tough-guy act worked on them. They’re scared to get sued. Unfortunately for you, I’m not the least bit intimidated and welcome the fight and the opportunity to take the issue to the National Stage, etc. If you want a fight…bring it my way and quit picking on weaker folks you coward.

Michael’s new blog is here:

I’ve asked to stay banned and I won’t try to participate. Michael and I have amicably parted ways on that front, but remain friends. His vision for an online Community is his path and I wish him and the others well and there’s no sense in trying to make a square peg fit through a round hole.

2. Harvest Crusade woohoo! Greg Laurie seems to be a decent guy…no scandals or abuses dogging him, etc. While I think the massive amount of time, money and energy could be better used than to entertain the large crowds of Already Christians or Christians who will “rededicate” could be better used to target folks who really have never heard the Gospel and/or to feed folks, clothe folks etc in this terrible economy…it’s still a net positive I guess. Good for morale and while the vast majority who attend/watch are probably already saved…I’m sure God uses the effort as a means to save some. One soul is worth it I guess…though I think it’s taken on a Status thing and become an Idol-maker in that Laurie is jockeying to be the next Billy Graham and is becoming quite the Celebrity Pastor.

I don’t think real Revival will happen at a televised well-coordinated Event at a Stadium…I think it’ll happen outside the planned/orchestrated contrived clutches of men. But, who knows…maybe we can force it if we just perform well enough…

3. Remember “Hope and Change!” and “Change We Can Believe In!” and “We will be the most Transparent Administration in History!” and “We will set a new tone of Bipartisanship in Washington DC!” etc? Yah, seems like a long time ago, doesn’t it? Buy the Steak, not the Sizzle. Unfortunately, there’s really nothing we can do to avoid the pain that must come from a Debt-driven Crisis. If Romney/Ryan win…they’ll be faced with the decision to kick the can down the road and let Ben Bernanke and the League of Extraordinary Banksters print more and more money and Debt us into oblivion…avoiding maximum pain for another few years…or they’ll have to make real Cuts in Spending and real increases in Revenue…and Romney will be a One-Termer. To my Fiscally Conservative friends out there…be careful what you wish for…Austerity and Fiscal Responsibility means we’ve actually got to go through a Deflationary Depression of some form and either destroy the Debt and/or pay it off. Too bad we can’t just print more and more fake money and take on more and more Debt to infinity…that would be a great option…in Financial Fairy Tale Land. But, maybe the Laws of Economics no longer apply and it’s a New Paradigm…ya, right. Debt doesn’t matter…until it does.

4. I’ve had haunting memories lately of Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia walking around our house naked in front of me and my brother, a habit he repeated often…that and of him making us shower naked with him in a small one-man shower. While I don’t recall being touched in a sexual manner…the memories are quite disturbing in that Paul, Bob’s blood son and 10 years younger than me, accuses him of molestation…that and the fact Jerry Sandusky had a habit of showering with young boys. Dads, Step-Dads, Pastors…don’t walk around exposing your genitals to your kids on a regular basis…and don’t shower naked with them in close quarters…it’s weird and it’s creepy…and if you are accused by your blood son of molestation…it provides a whole new level of creepy and is now another scar on me and infuriates me that Bob continues to get away with this stuff and is still a Pastor and Police Chaplain and in a Position of Trust in our Society. But, hey, it’s all “in the past” and “nothing can be done now” and “leave it to the Lord!” and “Get a life!” etc. Thanks Chuck, thanks Greg and Sue Dowds, thanks Calvary Chapel! Praise the Lord! I feel so blessed…not.

5. It’s funny how Calvary Chapel Pastors often claim and example special Moses/Prophet/Apostle status on one hand when it comes to their sheep questioning finances, sharing authority and being humble, approachable and correctable…yet claim “no responsibility” and “no control” etc etc when it comes to dealing with other “Apostles” in the Camp who go off the rails. Very selective “Apostle” status. “Apostle” when it works for you…not an Apostle when it comes to Church Discipline…then “no speaka English!” and “we’re all independent!” etc etc.

6. The “new” Calvary Chapel Association sure is looking a lot like the old iteration so far. Same Stone Wall as before. I left a message with Damian Kyle and with Don McClure…the “new” Regional Guy and the head of the Calvary Chapel “Association”…no return phone calls. Not even a “Silence, I keel you!”…just a giant CC Stone Wall, which is the “old” M.O. So far, nothing “new” about it…just a more fancy Appearance of Accountability.

7. The Dodgers are the Yankees of the National League. What Recession/Depression? Yikes. At the current trajectory…hot dogs at Dodger Stadium will be $500 a piece by 2050, and single-game tickets for a family of four will be $10,000.

8. Too bad the USADA wasn’t in charge of Church Discipline in Calvary Chapel. Unfortunately for Lance Armstrong…he’s not an “affiliated” Calvary Chapel Pastor…or he’d be in the clear, no problemo. Accountability is for suckers!

9. Apple’s stock is approaching $700 a share. Apple has more money hoarded up than any Corporation in the history of business. Tell me why they need to employ 400,000 Chinese workers at slave wages to build iPhones and iPads and then ship them back to the US and sell them to us at Wal-Mart? Why can’t they build the iPhone/iPad factory here in the US and pay living wages? It can’t be that they can’t afford it…

10. Fathers: If your kids beg you to spend time with them and play with them longer…if they practically jump out of the house and sprint to you when you come home…if they feel the freedom to express themselves to you honestly (even if it is sometimes rebellious or naughty, but is honest and frank)…and if they look forward to the time you spend together…you’re doing something right. If your kids are happier when you’re off on a “ministry” vacation err, trip or off at a church meeting etc because they can’t stand you and live in fear of you…you’ve got a problem. My suggestion is repent early and often…or you’ll reap what you sow….though the hard-core jerks out there could care less (until they face judgment). For me, my relationship with my kids is life itself. What an empty lie to sacrifice one’s children at the altar of Faux Ministry. Our number one priority, our number one “ministry” as Fathers…is our own children. Don’t be fooled into believing otherwise.

 Posted by at 7:46 am

  63 Responses to “Voices in my head: August 28, 2012 edition”

  1. 2. After reading of the revivals of the past, I found that most seemed to get the people emotionally charged and within a few years everything was back to normal. The only one that I thought to be real revival was the Welsh Revival. I don’t judge revival by the amount of people who are “saved”, but by the results 2 years later.

    9. Between Apple and Wal-Mart, we see so many things that are wrong with our Corporations today. The fact that Wal-Marts revenues are larger than most companies and yet they cut benefits to regular workers so the stock prices remain high.

    10. Agreed, ministry to kids is a top priority, though, I said number 2 ministry. Wives get to be number one. Practically, I think three things that help maintain this: Set a part family time and don’t let others intrude on it, play with your kids, be it barbies, GI Joe, sports, cars, dress up, etc, and take your kids out individually for ice cream, soda, whatever.

  2. 1. So did Bob actually have a legitimate case against PP + others? If so, on what grounds?

    6. I was waiting to see if they would handle your case any differently? Didn’t expect you could change their stripes, certainly not without a public repentance … which is much needed. We are still required to repent of our sins. And I think it was in Ezekiel where we were reading about how the leadership’s sins (I think it was the Levites) of leading the people astray had ramifications. Not only were the leaders removed and replaced, but the people who followed their leadership were disciplined, as well. No one got a free pass.

    10. YES! The years of having the privilege to be with your kids goes by so fast! We stepped out of too much involvement (well, you know the all consuming, time-sucking ways that often describe CC leadership trying to run on a shoe-string budget and skeleton crew so the pastor can make more money in his non-prophet) at the church in order to spend more time with our kids, as well as creating margin in our lives so we could actually love our neighbors. We ended up with more real ministry with and through our kids and neighborhood, than we ever could have imagined.

    At the same time, we watched up close the other “pastors” of our church spend almost no time with their kids. It looked like the leaders were drawn heavily towards anything that gave them the CC praise they craved. The titles, the power of position, the accolades, etc… But their kids … well … they are getting ready to leave the house and those parents and kids will NEVER get the last 6 years of their lives back to do over.

    The kids have had a life of living at the church building and only associating with the church kids, while their parents logged in unbelievably long hours there each week. The only area of their lives that’s been developed is the CC language and culture. Outside of that environment these kids are fish out of water, it’s very uncomfortable for them.

    We all must love our children and give them wings so they can one day actually fly from the nest, prepared to meet the challenges of adulthood and to love. What these kids have picked up in the CC culture is something short of love, looking more like an attitude of “us vs. them,” and how to serve a human (pastor) in an unhealthy way, as well as the skill of how promote self. I guess self-promotion sticks out as their greatest skill. But I digress …

    May we love our kids with quality and quantity, in THEIR language. The ministry that flows from that is priceless!

  3. alex,
    you may disagree, but this is what i think of the ‘new PP’. i wanted to post this on MN’s blog, but chances are he wouldn’t allow it… so here’s hoping he’s lurking here…

    MN had a chance to fulfill his ‘original’ vision for PP, but when it came right down to it, he bailed on it. then ‘defended’ those he started out opposing by ‘opposing’ those who he started out defending.

    PP is now truly and more accurately named for him, and he has ‘ironically’ become the christian blogging world’s best version of the Moses Model with him at the undisputed, unquestioned TOP of the mountain. He’s created his own Calvinistic CC on the web and he’s going to defend it against all calls for repentance and restoration to his ‘original’ vision. He likes the attention and acclaim he gets from his peeps too much to rock the boat.

    ‘good luck’ is all i can muster, i don’t think God has anything to do with it at all. Ok,now i’m done. thanks for the freedom.

  4. i have attempted to post this on PP. ‘awaiting moderation’…

  5. Good luck posting at the new pp… if your ip was ever banned, you are blackballed!

    Reminds me of a cross between Orwell’s 1984 and Animal Farm…

    “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”

    ― Vladimir Lenin

  6. “I don’t think real Revival will happen at a televised well-coordinated Event at a Stadium…I think it’ll happen outside the planned/orchestrated contrived clutches of men. But, who knows…maybe we can force it if we just perform well enough…”

    i agree strongly. a study once said that very few of BG’s ‘decisions’ followed thru to actually follow Christ. i would expect that GL’s crusades get much the same results. Past the carnival/rock concert event that draws more christians and ‘seekers’ that already want to believe but had to wait till the ‘Big Event’, i’m convinced that GL’s Harvest Crusades and those of BG are not really designed to draw unbelievers of any other stripe. they don’t come to your church why would you think they would attend a ‘christian’ event?

    these are more to make ourselves feel better about the horrible failure to share JESUS in our ‘actual’ every day lives. “Ooo Rahh!!, Isn’t this Fun?”

    Gag me with a Spoon…
    ps. my PP comment is ‘still’ in moderation…

  7. alex,
    “…maybe we can force it if we just perform well enough…”

    you’re channeling your inner brian, aren’t you?

  8. MIC said,

    “.. a study once said that very few of BG’s ‘decisions’ followed thru to actually follow Christ. i would expect that GL’s crusades get much the same results.”

    I work with a man saved in a Billy Graham crusade in 1950. He went on to Bible college and then to work on the mission field for 40 years, followed by pastoring missionaries after that. He, of course, knows some with similar testimonies, as they run in the same circles. That’s not to say that the study’s findings were inaccurate, just say’in that it’s nice to hear of the ones that did go on to serve Christ wholeheartedly.

    Ever since my early days as a Christian in a movement that highly valued “revival” meetings each year, I’ve not been a fan. But I do like to note that God still uses His gospel when it’s preached one way or another.

  9. grateful

    i guess i stand corrected. i also know of several people who have followed on from BG and GL crusades to ‘stick’. i think the study was focusing on the vast majority (+90%) that don’t.

    I in no way intended to disparrage the ‘few’ who have.

  10. Grateful, BG didn’t have a donut’s chance in a room full of BG’s surrogates (that means zero LOL, especially the inner-circle). He just sent shots across their bow to intimidate. He still might try and sue them, but I think since MIchael removed the old site and won’t talk about the BG stuff anymore…Bob got what he wanted. Just my read of it. We’ll see what happens.

  11. MiC said, “you’re channeling your inner brian, aren’t you?”

    LOL. Yep 🙂

  12. DA, good point about wives…I see wives as co-equals and extremely important, but co-Leaders with regards to our children.

    Servant of All type Jesus Model tells me that the strong are to help the weak more. My wife isn’t weak 🙂 other than weaker physically due to her stature/physiology/weight, but stronger in many aspects than I am or as strong.

    My kids are at a disadvantage, they don’t understand stuff fully yet, they are developing, they aren’t capable of controlling their emotions yet, they cannot be held to the same high standards an adult can and they require a vast amount of love and patience.

    Wives and husbands need love and support from each other as well…but in the hierarchy of Strong and Weak….Wives are equals…kids need the help and focus of both parents.

    Just my 2 cents fwiw and I am not in any way discouraging dudes from making their wives a priority…wives are great partners and I love my wife and appreciate her very much…and I respect her very much as well. I just think that she would agree that the kids are our co-priority as Leaders of our home and that while she appreciates me engaging in our relationship and being a good husband to her….she doesn’t want to be number 1 at the expense of the kids…if that makes sense.

    For us, God has put it on our hearts that our kids are our #1 ministry and we share that responsibility.

    Now we could spend all day dissecting the “Wives submit to your husbands” stuff and the “man is the leader” etc. The ultimate “Model” of Leadership is Jesus Christ. I feel quite safe in erring on the side of Grace and the spirit of Partnership rather than the man-made interpretation of Male dominance and Chauvinism I grew up with. I don’t think that’s the Leadership example Jesus had in mind…but it sure seems to be taught and modeled within Calvary Chapel.

    If as “men” we are to “lead” our wives…like Jesus is “leads” the church (i.e. the individual Believers)…does a relationship with Jesus…in terms of daily sanctification and “walk”…occur Synergistically or not? If Synergistically, then that begs a cooperative effort of Jesus patiently leading and not expecting anything in return.

    Now, if it’s the OT Law and “You do this…and God will do that!” both with reward and punishment….then I see a bit of the Male Domineering “Man is in charge! Woman submit to my authority or else!” stuff.

    I don’t think the latter is the correct Model. The fruit of it in my marriage is that when I modeled the Male Authoritarian Prick model I grew up with…things went bad and the spirit in our home was terrible. When I repented and modeled a Jesus Model in our home…the spirit in our home has been wonderful ever since (not perfect, but a stark contrast to the dysfunction and terrible dynamic of before).

    Now, if I really am “the SUPREME LEADER!” of my home…and accountable to God for such…which way do you think is better? Authoritarian Prick or Jesus/Synergistic Cooperative Effort Love and Grace and Mercy Even if it isn’t Reciprocated at Times?

    Jesus Model is the right Way folks…from my experience. It’s the Right Way for Pastors and any Spiritual Authority as well.

    …doesn’t work so well in the Military or in the Mafia or in the Business World though…but we are not to be like “the World” and Jesus turned stuff upside down…especially when it came to modeling and exercising Authority.

  13. MiC, go easy on Michael. I feel bad for him. The years of his efforts have taken a toll on him and I think he sincerely isn’t up to the fight of controversy at the level it can get to when dealing with these sorts of issues. Not a knock on him, just part of the reality. It has affected him much over the years and cost him a lot. By contrast, I thrive in controversy and it’s kind of therapeutic…it’s a healthy outlet to exorcize some of the metaphorical demons that are a by-product of my intensely abusive upbringing.

    …that and I think some of his pastor ‘friends” heap burdens on him and mind-screw him…and he starts thinking his circumstances are a by-product of some sort of tit-for-tat with God that he has done wrong, etc. Evil men thrive and “succeed” and good men live in poverty and affliction. It’s just life…not that there isn’t Reaping and Sowing Principle…there is…but in Michael’s case, I think his circumstances have nothing to do with his stances and legit controversies with Calvary Chapel…other than what Heitzig did to him…but that was just the Strong punishing the Weak…and Heitzig will get his at Judgment for that one as he seems to be made of Teflon here in this existence.

  14. @ 12


  15. MiC @ 9, I wasn’t correcting you. The study may be very accurate. I am just glad that this person I work with stuck.

    If I were deciding where to put time and money, I might not go the big venue route due to the very issues you raise; however, many would not put there money and time into the fields where we share the gospel because of how much time and patience it takes.

    I do live in a world of dichotomies and seems to me that you can have two similarly looking situations that bear little fruit, and one might be mixed with self-serving motives while another isn’t. God knows, though.

  16. Alex @ 10,

    I see. Wonder why they backed down from Bob Grenier? Something about that seems off.

    Also seems strange to refer to Billy Graham as “BG” in one post and Bob Grenier as “BG” in another post. I think I just felt an earthquake putting them in the same sentence!

  17. @12 Like

    One thought:
    Men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loves the Church.
    They havent been instructed to love their kids that way.

    Out of a husbands love for his wife, the family is loved.
    Remember…”A happy wife is a happy life!”

    What better way to love your children and make them a priority than to love their mother as God loves us.
    Parents can love their children and not love one another.
    And when the children go off to college, there is nothing left, because the object of their adoration is gone.

  18. Alex@while she appreciates me engaging in our relationship and being a good husband to her….she doesn’t want to be number 1 at the expense of the kids…if that makes sense.

    No, it doesn’t 😉
    Why would she be #1 at the expense of the kids?

    Can you convince her to come on and chat a bit? 😉

  19. i’ve learned to lead my family where my wife tells me to go… and she’s always telling me where to go…

  20. RE: no. 9 and Apple’s stock:

    There was a time when they got their asses taxed off for not locating plants, equipment, and jobs within U.S. borders. Now it’s just the opposite, they get tax breaks. Speaking of which, I wonder how much Apple payed in taxes last year? How much did mom & pop KWVE listener pay last year? Just the other day they had a guy and his wife on one of their segments bemoaning the “creeping socialism” taking over America. Funny how the only time they get their boxers & thongs in a dither is when the socialism is for the little guy.

  21. “There was a time when they got their asses taxed off for not locating plants, equipment, and jobs within U.S. borders”

    honest question. when was this true? i’m not sure the us govt has ever taxed compaines MORE just for ‘not’ locating in the US… not even sure a ‘punitive’ tax like that could ever have been legal.

  22. Hannah asked, “Can you convince her to come on and chat a bit?”

    She doesn’t like blogging or expressing her feelings publicly…I’ll ask, but I know her well and I’ll be shocked if she decides to come on here 🙂

    Muff…yes, there is lots of Corporate Socialism, no doubt. The poor have some sort of Safety Net…and so do the the Rich / Big Corps / Banks / Wall Street. Hard core cold capitalism for the rest of us Middle Class…until we’re “poor”

  23. Grateful said, “I see. Wonder why they backed down from Bob Grenier? Something about that seems off.”

    Michael is scared of being sued. Not that he’d lose, but that he’d have to go through the process and spend money and time on it. It’s not his fight, he’s done enough, so I’m fine with him dialing it down to satisfy Bob.

    Now if Bob sues him anyway…Michael will fight back strongly and get a lot of support from others in CC. Bob’s best move is to leave Michael and the others alone and not risk losing a lot of money and not risk garnering a lot of support within CC for Michael.

    If Bob wants to fight, he knows where I’m at.

  24. Alex – – – wild applause for #12!

  25. RE: michael in chandler @ 21

    It depends entirely on what sources you want to check and whose facts you want to believe. It’s important however, that we all use critical thinking skills before we decide on what’s what and arrive at our own conclusions. Who knows? You might come to an altogether different take on things.

    I’m old enough to remember the unprecedented prosperity and rise of a true middle class after WWII. I believe it was made possible because the tax codes rewarded those who plowed the profits back into American factories and stayed on American soil.

    Over the last 30 yrs. or so this model has been systematically dismantled and destroyed in favor of investors who care nothing for local and sustainable economies across America.

  26. Alex, what you shared in your introduction regarding the Harvest Events is precisely, almost to the tee, what has gone through my own mind. I forget what Billy Graham stated one time about 20 years (does anyone remember 20 years ago) regarding the acutal converion that take place during one his events. But I do remember it was less than 10%. He stated that it was his opinion that this was due to poor followup by the church body.

    As they were taking an offering, I wondered myself why couldn’t they do a benefit and put that back into feeding, clothing, and housing those who need it within the body.

    Now, just last week, listening to a CC Pastor explain the significant of the wife and the role of the husband. He stated the wife significant is to show the world the proper role for the woman. In turn, he explained that the husband is to be viewed by the wife as a military commander. I was driving and I’m telling you I wanted push the rewind button, but then again, this is the third time I’ve heard CC state this: 3 different pastors!!

    As for Pastors taking a head in the sand attitude due to fear of being sued or replaced and octracized, has anyone considered that another possibillity given the gang up mentality and the turning the table and making one feel as they are not able to think for themselves. Well, has anyone consider that CC migh have something on that they also don’t want to be exposed? In corporate psychopathy you will find this dynamic. What happens in the food chain is this. Everyone of this nature is vying for the #! spot or as close to it as they can get. Not like all narcissist they will groom their victim, while keying into their vulnerability, including find out something that the person doesn’t want anyone to know about. So, they now have a hostage, but also someone to rinforce the system and to cover up the corruption.

    Greg Laurie preached a really good message on Sunday, it is for the H.S. to search the heart that is ready to receive. At the same, one have wonder just how much of the choir he is preaching to and is this another way generate future tithers. God help us all in praying for those that did come forward and for those who needed to repent Christian, unbeliever, and deceivers alike.

  27. Here’s an article regarding a list of sources that gives the stats on acutal converts.

    If this is so, then either we as Christians are not doing what we’ve been called to by asking others to attend these events with us and so we end up having a good old night with great Christian musician and a fires work show, and or it a way of elevating and populizing those who are presenting. On Saturday night, Greg mentioned there were 7000 volunteers that would be available on the field. I think the number who step forwards was given to be roughly 3500-4000. So 10% would be 350-400 out of a crowd attendance of 45,000 (?). and 7000 volunteer on the field. How very deceptive when you think that it looks like everyone and their brother and sister is doen there to come to Christ. I personally know of one volunteer who desperately needs to repent. Oh well, all are called, but few are chosen.

  28. Re: Alex @ 23 said,

    “If Bob wants to fight, he knows where I’m at.”

    This is exactly what I was thinking about. Here you have an entire blog dedicated to warning others about Bob Grenier, yet he threatens to sue people on Phoenix Preacher? The PP is small potatoes compared to you. Just goes to show that Bob fears you because you do not fear him! He KNOWS that you KNOW the truth.

    I’m sorry, forgive me for this, but … what a bafooon!

  29. MIC said this:

    “PP is now truly and more accurately named for him, and he has ‘ironically’ become the christian blogging world’s best version of the Moses Model with him at the undisputed, unquestioned TOP of the mountain. He’s created his own Calvinistic CC on the web and he’s going to defend it against all calls for repentance and restoration to his ‘original’ vision. He likes the attention and acclaim he gets from his peeps too much to rock the boat.”

    No one said anything truer about PP and its host. If one looked back over the years at PP and now read his latest “thoughts” one will find Michael repeating much of what he banned others for and called them names over. Quite frankly the man needs the attention of the blog and without it he just dries up.

    Sad but Michael N. you need to take time off the web and just chill. Live the life of God in Jesus and quit seeking attention and a place to pontificate.

  30. Comment 26, I thought I had corrected the information regarding what the CC Pastor stated regarding the role of a wife. It should have read that he stated it was to show the world that it was a role of submission to her husband who is to be viewed and obeyed as if he was military commander.

    And we wonder why it is that Alex and his sibling were treated so dispicably?

    All abuse is destructive, but did you know that 1 out of every 4 females in the church is seriously (cuts, broken bones, black eyes, and worse, including have to witness the abuse of her own babies). This includes the wives of Pastors.

  31. I’m always amazed at ministers who compare themselves to military leaders, most never having served in the military, never been trained in it’s discipline, or never had to lead anyone into battle where there were real bullets flying. They want the rank and title but without having earned it.

  32. Wives do not want to be treated by their husbands as subordinates in some type of military hierarchy.

    Quite frankly, neither do the men. How many of them just want to “obey orders” from Jesus? Is that Christianity? But, they expect their wives to obey them unquestioningly.

  33. J

    thx for the echo. i’m not sure MN will listen, but nice to know i’m not alone in my assesment

  34. I think I missed an essential something. How exactly did Bob supposedly/actually threaten to sue certain people on PP? Can someone elaborate?

  35. Alex said:

    “Now if Bob sues him anyway…Michael will fight back strongly and get a lot of support from others in CC. Bob’s best move is to leave Michael and the others alone and not risk losing a lot of money and not risk garnering a lot of support within CC for Michael.”

    I hope these aren’t the same CC apologists that are afraid to post their real names on the Phoenix Preacher blog. If Michael is depending on these guys for support if Bob decides to sue he might want to find support elsewhere because in my experience when it comes down to do it these guys will will run for cover as the Brand comes first above justice.

  36. Hannah said:

    “One thought:
    Men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loves the Church.
    They havent been instructed to love their kids that way.

    Out of a husbands love for his wife, the family is loved.
    Remember…”A happy wife is a happy life!”

    What better way to love your children and make them a priority than to love their mother as God loves us.
    Parents can love their children and not love one another.
    And when the children go off to college, there is nothing left, because the object of their adoration is gone.”


  37. #37 this what is referred to as the empty nest syndrome. Instead of building a life and relationship between husband and wife, the husband works hard and harder and the wife becomes more and more involved with her children, to point being best friends with child or using a child to be surrogate partner. Boundaries be blurred. Then when the kids are gone the husband and wife then discover they don’t even know the other. More often than nome, there is an affair or had been an affair or an affair hanging in the wings.

    A lot of people think that there is not a lot of love to go around, so they compartmentalize things. That is, we will love our children during these times or on that day, then on the alternate we will love our spouse. Love is not a commodity. Either you love at all times or you have a misunderstanding of what it is and how it manifests itself. Husband and wife needs to create a united front with the children. But when the wife is left alone to “handle” the children, then the children are able to split the marital partnership. Children feel most secure when they see 2 adult people fully developed in their own skills and respecting one another and making decisions together. From this they take strength and learn to develop the gifts that God has given them. The learn to respect each other and the world about them while setting good boundaries to keep the bad out and the good people in. They are then ready to leave the nest and the husband and wife are ready to retire and to enjoy one another even more.

  38. Channel your inner brian, I laughed at that one for over an hour. Stop that I cant be happy. 🙂

  39. Alex,

    Reviewing your intro “Voices in My Head” and working my way down. Pertaining to #4 and the flashbacks you are having. I know all too well what you are experiencing and now sharing with the world, or at least anyone that cares to listen. Not hear, but listen.

    I don’t know if you find ways to pull yourself out of these thoughts or you just ride them out. But I do know the emotional turmoil that can set in as they play over again in your mind and I do know the physiological affects it has upon your body—none which are good. One thing I do for myself to stop them is to look at an object and describe it, such as there is a chair, it is brown with chips in the wood. It sits on my floor and helps me to do the work I need to be doing, and so forth. Just a suggestion, as I know how disrupting and absolutely horrendous it can be to have these flashbacks. Its as if you are being abused all over again. Such are the “benefits” of being an abused and traumatized person. Whoopee, huh.

    On another note: Alex, be strong and keep doing what you are doing. Through your sufferings and painful experiences, many others are being warned about a person who needs to be held to an account and discipline accordingly. What more, it is opening the eyes of many who have been abused or know of someone who has been abused by a system that is corrupted in many ways. Not altogether, but in enough ways that a great alarm should being going off in the hearts and minds of the church body that is associated with Calvary Chapel. Just know you are in the company of great and worthy saints of the Lord who have given their life as well to speak out against those who would persecute the church from within this body by using the tactics that have been used by those who would protect such offenders, particularly within the “leadership” of CC.

    I know you know this Alex, but sometimes due to our abuse we began to doubt, to question because that is a normal response of one who has been abused. So, even though I am speaking for myself, I know there are others out there, who also would agree with me when I say, do not dispair God is on your side. Be strong and take your place among His heroes of the Bible knowing you are a good and faithful servant of the Lord. Run the race, Alex and make your calling sure, with all due diligence and faithfulness to what you know is true. Do not slack off and fight the good fight, contending for the faith and bare a good witness to those things that are true and honoring to the Lord. Let no man tell you that to do otherwise is not of the Lord. For you know His Word, being raised in it since a child. For such a time as this, God is using you, Alex to bring these things forth. And in time, He will do the same with others as well as myself.

  40. Linda said to Alex, “… do not dispair God is on your side.”


  41. Thanks guys.

    I don’t know if God is ‘on my side’ in terms of with everything I do etc like some blanket ‘anointed’ diplomatic immunity like CC practices…but I think God is on the side of Truth and Righteousness and that with regards to the Bob Grenier situation, God ain’t happy with the wrongdoing that continues and is unresolved.

  42. If anyone is experiencing the tape of their experiences continuing in their head, the math puzzle Sudoku helps. A few minutes breaks the cycle.

    I’m not a professional like Linda and others on here, but it seems that when the abuses come from someone you thought you could trust, like your CC pastor, or Chuck Smith, or CCOF, or other CC pastors then it changes shifts the axis of one’s world. Some of the things people experience are so unconscionable that the lack of resolution makes one’s brain work overtime.

    How many times have we had people sitting in our living room saying out loud this process whereby they wonder if they sinned, if they brought it on, and then ask how could a pastor do this, as they try to unravel what actually happened. One moment it’s clear that the pastor (or other guilty party) is sinning, and the next they are second guessing themselves. But in the end, people know the truth … they just can’t believe it? This ongoing process creates patterns of thinking that need a break, or so it seems to me. Not a break as in stop figuring it out and acting upon the truth, for that will hurt you, too. But taking mini-vacations from any consuming subject has got to be healthy. Am I in the ball park, all you professionals out there?

  43. Alex, agreed. I don’t think God hands out immunity cards for anyone.

  44. Repeating my #35:

    “I think I missed an essential something. How exactly did Bob supposedly/actually threaten to sue certain people on PP? Can someone elaborate?”

    No one has answered this. Can someone respond, please? Thanks in advance…….

  45. Another Note:

    I don’t seem to be able to find “Calvary Chapel Distinctives” on the website either. Have they done away with them? Does anyone know?

    Has the “Distinctives” been replaced with: “Philosophy of Ministry?”

    This is a list of essays or papers authored by various CC Pastors.

  46. Grateful, yes I do agree.

    You have been traumatized by an abnormal event (s) and your brain, heart, mind, and body is attempting to strike a balance in making sense out of no sense, if you will. It’s hared because chemically speaking, the truama is being re experienced and it is triggering you brain to release cortisol which blunts your ability to produce dopamine and serotonin. That’s why you have to take a deliberate action to distract.

    You have to process through it in your own time but you also know when and how to take a mini vacation to shut it off. One way is to distract onto something else, change channels, do what you know that is healthy even if you feel as though you are being drag under the waters. The worse thing a person can do is to repress these thoughts for they will pop up somewhere in the future in a seemingly unrelated event. Which can be deceiving and lead the person into trying to deal with something that core issue had to do with the original trauma instead.

    It’s ironic to me when there is a event that cause trauma to several people at the same time and in turn they receive all the support, understanding, and intervention while it is made as certain as possible the offender is hed to an account. But when an individual is traumatized, not so much, if at all. Perhaps it has to do the propensity to believe what has happened more due to the numbers, then it is when it comes to one person.

    Is this what you are asking, Grateful?

  47. Linda:

    Don’t take the bait of Alex claiming flashbacks on his days whilst a youth. I know for a fact he was having flashbacks all right…but about the days when Spud State had a great football program. Alas, no more.

    Aztecs arise and claim yur manifest destiny to take Norte America.

  48. Gratefu, here’s thought:

    because those who do have consciences that enable them to be empathic, they will question themselves regarding what part they may played in the offense against them. At the same, it is a thought that was instilled in them by the person who victimized them. And when telling their story to another, when the listener is attempting to understand or be defensive on the side of the offender, It triggers what was ‘brainwashed” into their heads by the offender. Additionally, in we can take blame for it, then we should be able to fix it, right? And that is where the lie is and the trauma is experienced and reexperiencd, over and over again, even when the offender is no longer there. The truth: is wasn’t about us—it was always about them. Even when it comes to admitting the wrong doing, for the offender, if you, the victim would just admit that you asked for it, then you wouldn’t be suffering the way that you do and trying to make my life a living hell.

    This latter statement is an example of what is called, an Narcissist Injury, a projection, rewriting history, spinning the truth, and a grandiose type of delusion.

  49. Alex, who is #48, I mean: Jeff Sheckstein?

  50. Alex,

    “I don’t know if God is ‘on my side’ in terms of with everything I do etc like some blanket ‘anointed’ diplomatic immunity like CC practices…but I think God is on the side of Truth and Righteousness and that with regards to the Bob Grenier situation, God ain’t happy with the wrongdoing that continues and is unresolved.”

    And as long as you walk in that mindset, Alex, He is with you on this.

  51. Linda

    I’ll clear up the mystery and just once…and once only, “out” myself. My real name is Jeffrey Greene. My father is the comedian, Shecky Greene…hence the nom del dia, Jeff Sheckstein. My father worked the Catskills in it heyday and opened for the “greats” on the Las Vegas strip. My cousin is Hiyam Wright, who blogs on here occasionally and the is the most bloviating, narcissist documented in the Beverly Hills Journal of Medicine.


  52. Sheck, LOL 😆

    Well, I guess Boise State isn’t a top 12 team this season…but still made a solid showing against a top 12 team.

    Looking forward to the SDSU game…

  53. Sheck, J

    LOL – thanks, “bloviating,” how funny. at first, I thought you meant to type: bloating, which in this case would be pretty much the same thing.

  54. Sheckstein @ #52,

    I’m old enough to remember Henny Youngman and his act long before the daze of comedy which now relies on shock, sex, meaness, & profanity laced delivery. I remember one evening in a Milwaukee club, Youngman had my date & I laughing on the way home too! Am I a prude? Far from it, I’m probably among the first who’ll get shoveled into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet for unrepentant sexual non-purity.

  55. Muff:

    A car hit an elderly Jewish man. The paramedic says, “Are you comfortable?” The man says, “I make a good living.”

    I’ve been in love with the same woman for 49 years. If my wife ever finds out, she’ll kill me

    My wife and I went back to the hotel where we spent our wedding night, only this time I stayed in the bathroom and cried.

    There is a big controversy on the Jewish view of when life begins.
    In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until it graduates from medical school.

    A Jewish boy comes home from school and tells his mother he has a part in the play. She asks, “What part is it? The boy says, “I play the part of the Jewish husband.” The mother scowls and says, “Go back and tell the teacher you want a speaking part.”

  56. I too was wondering the same question as Lone Ranger in 35 and 45. How was Michael threatened? (if you can say)
    And Sheck, could you regale us once again with the joke about the Jewish grandson and the one about the couple discussing football? I tried to tell a friend and botched it. And thanks for sharing about your dad. What a guy. Explains your supernatural wit.

  57. Yuppers Jeff! That’s Henny alright. I vividly remember Mr. Youngman playing some highlights from an old Beethoven piece on his violin as a warm up. His interpretation and technique were flawless.

  58. Bob Grenier … you really should not post on here.

  59. Hello… Anybody around? I was looking for some info on Greg Laurie and I was directed to this blog. I’m not interested is digging dirt. I’m looking for something factual. Opinions are ok if you consider the source but what I want to know is- Is Greg an honest man? I listen to him oCCasionally on the radio or online and I like his preaching. I’m wondering why he started a church so close to big Calvary (There I go dating myself). I really hope it’s to have a place where CC refugees can go for relief and true fellowship.

  60. Hi Gary,

    I do not know Greg Laurie and cannot comment on his character. What I do know is how the Moses Model church government works, which is a Calvary Chapel Distinctive.

    1. Pastor does not have meaningful accountability.
    2. Pastor controls the money.
    3. Pastor doesn’t have members in the congregation and therefore can’t be held accountable for how he uses the money.
    4. Pastor can fire the board members and elders if they disagree with him.
    5. Elders do not have any power or influence.
    6. Boards tend to be stacked with old friends, often out of town.
    7. Only the Pastor is affiliated with Calvary Chapel as the “attenders” would cease to be a Calvary Chapel is the pastor left.
    8. Pastor owns all the assets.

    There is a CC culture that appears to have spread through it’s DNA that Chuck Smith started. This culture has a consistency that many of us have seen it across the United States and in other countries.

    I, personally, can’t name a CC church that doesn’t have this culture, which has a legacy of being damaging, once you get involved and see behind the scenes. For details on what all is damaging, you can read through this blog. Or to save time just read Alex’s story, the blog owner. He is currently being sued by his step-father, a CC pastor, with Chuck Smith and CC pastors support by either direct support … or choosing silence. But there’s no accountability for unrepentant pastors in sin unless the law sends them to jail.

    The CC churches make great impressions … don’t be fooled.

  61. Btw, to whomever is reading,

    I’d be glad to point out a CC church that isn’t as I described above. I’d love to know of any that really have addressed the known issues that are pervasive in CC’s. But I’ve been asking for years and never found one, yet.

    I’ve been told of “good pastors” but after asking questions I find they still have no real accountability, still operate as a Despot, and still do not give membership to their people in favor of the pastor owning and running it all. It’s just too much power and too much money for it not to ruin him sooner or later.

    The question is: If a CC church doesn’t follow the Distinctives, is it still a CC? So if they’ve actually dealt with the real issues in the CC DNA, then who are they now?

  62. Grateful, and others, I understand the principle of like father like son but there must be some exceptions and maybe Greg Laurie is one of them. He doesn’t call his church Calvary Chapel but Harvest. Why did he go back to Orange County and start a church so close to the mother ship? Maybe there are some distinct distinctives about Harvest. Just maybe. I’m really hoping but maybe I’m just too naively
    Someone said that Chuck knows exactly what he’s doing. Didn’t it ever occur to him that he was sending out green pastors (to green pastures ;^D) without the education that he had??? That’s just too naive.
    The same thing that released me from CC back in ’73 is the very thing that kept my brother, who I’ve mentioned before, involved. I was hungry for fellowship. I was dying for real relationships. With my brother it’s like you said- they make great impressions.

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