Aug 052012

If you aren't part of the are part of the Problem. Calvary Chapel's so-called "good guys" need to examine their complicity and inaction in promoting a Church Association that won't change for the better.

It’s mind-numbing and frustrating to see something so clearly…yet have what appear to be rather normal and good men be so blind to a particularly destructive reality.

I’ve spoken with John Shaffer, who posts as “A Believer” over at, a couple of times. Once at length discussing some of the specifics of the Bob Grenier situation and the abuse in our home. Shaffer is not a guy who is unaware of major problems. He’s been exposed to so much of the garbage that the Status Quo from Calvary Chapel Leadership produces. Shaffer has participated at for a very long time and was informed of the terrible details of the Skip Heitzig scandals, the Joe Sabolic situation and so very much more. He has read testimony after testimony of folks who have been hurt by Calvary Chapel Pastors…and heard their frustration at the lack of action by Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, his boss Chuck Smith and CCOF (and it appears Chuck Smith is back to saying CCOF was there to “handle problems” in CC per his email to CCSP’s recently…instead of his lying in recent Radio Interviews and edicts from the CCCM pulpit claiming the contrary).

John Shaffer and people like him are a big part of the problem with the Calvary Chapel dynamic and Status Quo. A seemingly good guy…who is numb to the pain caused by Calvary Chapel’s inaction and irresponsibility.

Shaffer’s missive is the heart of what ticks me off about his (and many Calvary Chapel Pastors’) participation at Knowing all he knows, seeing all the hurt up close…he could care less. It’s Business as Usual. He can work for Skip Heitzig, no problem. He can design book covers for a guy like George Bryson…as long as the checks clear. He can promote the CC Brand through “The Word For Today” without the bat of an eye…knowing how much things should change…and how many people have been hurt…and their painful stories etc etc. Shaffer is “loyal” to the Brand and the Status Quo…and nothing, I MEAN NOTHING, could break through that co-dependence and enabling dynamic. The Kool Aid is strong with many.

I imagine, on a much much larger scale and not nearly analogous (but the dynamic is similar) this is how Hitler was able to do what he did with so many seemingly good people in Germany at that time.

There comes a point where the John Shaffer’s of Calvary Chapel are a part of the Problem and not the Solution. When evil stares you in the face…and instead of saying, “Um, that’s wrong…and we’ve got to correct that right now”…you say, “Well that’s just my dysfunctional irresponsible husband, I’m loyal to the end!”…there is a Problem.

John Shaffer should be disgusted with Calvary Chapel Leadership. He should be a voice demanding changes and he should be a voice in front of his buddies the Smith family challenging them to do the right thing. He’s not that guy…he’s a Company Man, loyal to the Status Quo…to the end, hell or highwater.

It’s wrong. He’s wrong. It is guys like the John Shaffer’s, Steve Wright’s, Ron Arbaugh’s, Jeff Jone’s and all the other CC guys who know so much, have seen so much of the pain, know the long history of abuse and corruption in CC, know that Chuck Smith lies, know that CC is unjust in how they deal with stuff, know how guys like Skip Heitzig, Bob Grenier, Raul Ries and so many others have done wrong and hurt many folks…and their answer is “forgive, don’t be bitter, move on, we’re not all the same, there is more good than bad in CC” etc etc. The same “good guys” then freak out when someone “abuses” them on a blog by being a non-compromising a-hole who doesn’t let stuff slide (ever). They want “justice” then. “Ban the jerk! He’s a trouble-maker!” etc etc. They can find all sorts of words and persuasion then to correct what they perceive is a grave sin and injustice. The hypocrisy and manipulation is sickening…but they are quite adept at confusing the folks at PhxP (but I have confidence that Michael sees through some of it and sees both sides of this).

Nothing will change when the so-called “good guys” see so much…and still defend the Company Brand without fighting tooth-and-nail for its repentance and redemption. We have few men of conviction in this day-and-age. We have too many John Shaffer’s and Steve Wright’s. Too many men who compromise. Too many men who ignorance is not an excuse they can claim. Too many men who should know the right thing to do, but don’t do it. Too many men who can find the courage, the conviction and the means to strongly rebuke and call for action against a person who won’t compromise and succumb to the CC Agenda of “nothing will change, we’re not all the same, Chuck is not responsible, we’re all independent” etc etc out of one side of their mouths…and then the reality of Chuck’s letter to the “affiliates” telling them how things are going to be now etc.

Yes, “nothing will change”…when you have men like John Shaffer at Costa Mesa. Nothing will change when you have men like Steve Wright who are fellow affiliated Calvary Chapel Pastors with guys like Skip Heitzig, Bob Grenier and others. Nothing will change when you want to silence the critics loudly…while not a word against the real abusers…Chuck Smith, Skip Heitzig, Bob Grenier and so many others.

Nothing will change alright…because deep down the John Shaffer’s, the Steve Wright’s, the Jeff Jones’s, the Ron Arbaugh’s etc etc aren’t men of conviction. They’ll only act when something offends and affects them personally.

Those three Pastors who went to defrock Bob Grenier, only to have Chuck Smith personally put the kabash on it…why do you tolerate that? Chuck Smith is a liar. He knows the truth, he said he believes us. The reason Chuck did an about-face is because his pride got tweaked and instead of being a man of God and doing the right thing anyway, he punished the many who have been hurt by Bob Grenier…because his highness wasn’t treated like a King and god.

The peak of abuse and offensiveness is not my non-compromising harsh words for those in Calvary Chapel…it is the ACTIONS of Calvary Chapel Leadership and the INACTIONS of the so-called “good” CC guys.

What good is a John Shaffer’s participation in a Community like which is partly filled with many who have been hurt by Calvary Chapel…if he is an Agent of promoting and defending the Status Quo? It’s good for the CC Status Quo and Counter-Insurgency…not so good for the victims of abuse and those trying to hold CC to some measure of accountability.

The following post transcribed verbatim from the public blogsite illustrates the callous Denial and facilitation of the Status Quo by those inside the highest towers of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa….and Shaffer is one of the few who care enough to even dialogue with those who’ve been hurt. Imagine the callousness and disregard from those higher up.

“A Believer says:

Since I have to get to work today, I will try to keep this brief and then end with a bullet list of what this place means to me.

I came on board near the beginning when the CSN, Skip Heitzig, and Joe Sabolick scandals were the hot and heavy topic of conversations here.

I am a long time Calvary Chapel Employee (over 30years) and also do freelance work for other Calvary Chapels including parachurch ministries related to CC, and personally know the Smith family. I have worked directly with Skip Heitzig and Joe Sabolick.

Many of those directly involved in those past scandals are my personal friends and have been for years. Many people who are or were in the CC movement are my personal friends such as Roger Oakland and George Bryson.

I became aware of this site because the CSN offices shared space with The Word For Today here at The Charis Building which is home to many of the CC corporations. The Word For Today is a DBA of CC Costa Mesa. The girls in the office were laughing one day about something they were reading on a blog site. I enquired and they directed me to Phoenix Preacher.

I spent some time over a few days looking at the blog threads. I decided to involve myself on the blog because I could see much misinformation being passed around on the site that involved people I love and know.

I felt that I could help bring balance since I perceived that the site was indeed a “CC bashing site” and much of the bashing was one-sided and unfair.

In the process of time as a CC defender, I also grew as a result of being exposed to the many different viewpoints and perspectives being expressed from all sides.

So with that preface, here is my bullet point list of what the Phoenix Preacher site has meant to me through the years:

• Having only been exposed to Lutheranism and Calvary Chapel theology, it allowed me to dialogue and interact with people of other theological perspectives.

• I was able to develop some wonderful friendships with people of other perspectives. Something I have always cherished and that I believe is a heathy thing. Many of those friendship have continued offline.

• It exposed me to valid criticisms of my tribe, enabling me to be a positive voice within my camp for change as needed

• It allowed me (as stated above) to correct some misinformation about some of my friends who were being unfairly judged.

• It was often a sounding board in my own journey of growth as I got exposed to new thoughts and ideas and was trying to process them, understand them better, or see if my perspectives were sound and worth holding on to.

• At times, the Phoenix Preacher provided me with much comic relief during late night hours under freelance work related stress (Think Old Night Crew). It also showed me I was not called to be a comedian as I tried to participate in some of the shenanigans. I thank Dave Rolph primarily for pointing this out. :)

• It strengthened my belief that there are indeed some very bright CC guys out there who are able to articulate a great defense of CC, it’s methods, and it’s theological perspectives in a very balanced and fair way. These men have shown they are open to healthy criticism and have taken responsibility for their own actions.

• I have been able to see how a commitment to dialoguing through issues has had similar effects on many posters on the site—a softening or releasing of long held biases and how healing has been brought to many.

• Watching the prayer thread has demonstrated the integrity and deep love of many of the regular posters for people and their needs. This is HUGE.

I could go on, if time permitted, but I will close with this.

Many people have asked me through the years why I continue to stay and work within the CC system which has it’s share of problems. The simplest answer I can give is this. I see my relationship with CC a lot like a marriage. There were a lot of girls I could choose to pick from who were worthy candidates. I chose one. I will stay faithful to her till I die. She is family. She is mine. Whatever imperfections I may discover in her along the way will not change this. I am and alway will be committed to her, …and to coin the words of a friend,

“Make you own application.” :) ”

I made my own application: You are either part of the Solution…or you are part of the Problem.

 Posted by at 8:08 am

  401 Responses to “Why things don’t change for the better: John Shaffer (The Word For Today, CCCM employee and Smith family friend) illustrates the problem with too much compromise at the top of Calvary Chapel”

  1. This from Steve Wright, CC Lake Elsinore:

    “Another Voice says:
    August 4, 2012 at 1:56 PM
    Maybe today could be a day where some of the regulars and past contributors could post something positive about what this site has meant to them. For many here, the involvement goes back 7 years or so to the very beginning.
    I’ve been around a little more than half that time, but also read much of the archived section before it was lost.

    This blog has had the hand of God upon it, and here is why I say that.

    What started as a so-called “anti-Calvary Chapel” blog, nevertheless drew many CC pastors to interact here. Some were critical and moved on, but others showed a support for the goal of accountability – recognizing there are some problems in the movement. These stuck around. Some of these men tempered Michael a little as well, and to Michael’s great credit, he was open to their instruction, as they were, in turn, open to his concerns.

    In addition, many, many folks posted their hurts (i.e. City of Refuge) – those who came out of CC (hurt or not), those who remain in CC. Folks unrelated to CC at all also came on board and this blog evolved to the community that means a lot to a lot of people.

    Bridges were built between pastors and congregant. Bridges were built between denominations. And wonderful friendships developed within the Body of Christ.

    As for the original goal – no, it is not lost. Michael did not compromise or sell-out. Look at a guy like Shaun Sells, eager and vocal for pastoring “the right way”, with accountability and transparency…and now, one of the new leaders in the New Calvary!!!

    Yet, Shaun almost never posts here anymore. And he has told us exactly why. As has Jeff just the other day. As have a few others, with most just disappearing or very rarely seen.

    All that good is over if the blog is shutdown. The bottom line is will it please God or please Satan if all this ends. That is the real question to me. Maybe God did only want it to go on for a short season. I doubt it though. Seems like others doubt it too.

    This has been quite an evolution for a so-called Calvary Chapel hate blog. Much like the change God made in a sinner like me living for the flesh for 25 years, now responsible for pastoring His people.

    I’m a better pastor because of this blog. Put another way, I would be a lesser pastor without this blog.

    I doubt I am alone…”

    Again, this is part of the Problem. Steve knows so much, claims to be part of the Solution…but patting hurt folks on the back and telling them to get over it is not the Solution. Steve is gung-ho to right a wrong on the PhxP b/c he’s been personally affected…not so gung-ho in being an outspoken critic of his own Tribe and pushing hard to make real changes System-wide.

    Steve Wright is not a man of conviction and integrity for this reason, IMO…and is part of the Problem, when he could use his gifts, his Position and his influence to be part of the Solution (in the form of changes in CC and demands for accountability within the Structure and recourse for those hurt by CCSP’s).

  2. Integrity is not a CC Distinctive
    Intellectual and Moral Honesty are not CC Distinctives
    they have too much to lose to stay and fight or walk away
    your silence is required for their ‘peace of mind’
    ” **** ’em, and the Dove they rode in on”


  3. To Grendal Hanks, it’s called a track-back…it happens automatically.

  4. If I were Michael, I would be a little offended that guys like John Shaffer are still so blindly loyal and supportive of Calvary Chapel “no matter what”…despite all the work Michael has done over the years exposing the bad stuff and calling for reforms.

    Shaffer’s basically saying, “so what, I love CC anyways” w/o doing anything meaningful to hold CC accountable or publicly voice his displeasure strongly and frequently.

    IMO, many of the CC Guys over there play Michael for the fool. They pat him on the back when he’s a good boy and does what they like, then they threaten to take their toys and leave when he starts acting like the PhoenixPreacher of old.

  5. “Some of these men tempered Michael a little as well, and to Michael’s great credit, he was open to their instruction, as they were, in turn, open to his concerns.”


  6. Doug, yes, I’m not so naive as to not notice the role Dave Rolph and other CC guys like John Shaffer have played at PP over the years. I noticed it early on…was aware of the reality and the dual-nature of these guys…they’re human.

    As a student of humanity, I could see that “part” of their Agenda was to temper and diffuse the sharp points of the PP. It just is what it is.

    John Shaffer, Dave Rolph and others aren’t evil guys, but they are human and they do have and Agenda…one that isn’t the right way to go IMO if the goal is doing the right thing in Calvary Chapel Land and having an “Association” that is God honoringly just and seeks to follow the Qualifications in Scripture and the Church Discipline laid out in Scritpure and Matthew 18 etc.

    Right now CC’its are comfortable ignoring large parts of Scripture and using their influence to persuade critics from right and wrong and exposing the bad stuff.

    I was tempted by the allure. The carrot was dangled my way in the “meeting” and it was tempting to play ball and be ‘included’ to a degree. I have been tempted that a seat at the table would be a good thing, a good direction…but not if the seat at the table is serving you and other victims of CC abuse for dinner.

  7. what good is ‘being open to’ michael’s concerns but unwilling to take a stand inside the beast for accountability and change? those CC ‘pastors’ can agree and be ‘concerned’ and even outraged on PP all they want (anonamously so they can be taken to the woodshed), but if they are still profitting and ‘propheting’ from the system because they are afraid of losing their Doves… then they are complicit and double minded, lying to not onlly themselves but also to michael and anyone else that thinks they are ‘good guys’.
    i don’t see the middle ground argument as anything but self preservation and obfuscation.

  8. Mike, agreed. Completely 100% intentional, or part just being human and part intentional…the result is self preservation within that Group and also obfuscation and facilitation of the Status Quo.

  9. I had a brief fb dialogue with John Shaffer. He says he couldn’t know who was right or wrong…then after getting some of the testimonies that Chuck Smith saw, it’s “I’m just the graphics department”.

    John was at the CCCM Service where Chuck Smith blasted me from the CCCM pulpit. He told me he was there and heard the fatwa.

    I asked John if he agreed Chuck Smith was lying when in that fatwa Chuck stated he “has no responsibility and no control over the Calvary Chapel Movement”…but then Chuck sends an email to all the CCSP’s recently notifying them of “the changes he has made” to the Calvary Chapel System.

    No response and now blocked. That’s it in a nutshell. And folks wonder why the problems persist and other folks get upset about it.

  10. alex,
    i wonder how they can sleep at night knowing that by their silence and unwillingness to confront evil, they themselves are supporting by their attendance and their finances, are benefitting and being employed by men and ‘churches’ who would rather cover up and allow, ignore and bully others into silence over child abuse and pedaphilia.

    what sickens me most is that we ain’t talking about Penn State, but Chuck Smith and CC.
    if you take money from or your family is benefitted from such a system, God help you to repent even if that means finding other work or changing carreers or being shunned or banned from ‘forums’ or friendship that are either CC or CC-lite in nature.

    silence and willful ignorance, bullying and banning people who speak-up is complicity. it makes you as guilty as those who perpetrate and obstruct prosecution of the crime. I don’t know if ‘legally’ it rises to the level of accessory after the fact, but ‘morally’ in my mind it does. Bunch of cowards and protectors of evil men. ‘… i’m just in the graphics department..’. give me a break.

  11. MiC,
    So if going to a CC and supporting it is such a bad thing that people need to repent from – can you tell my why you choose to take the easy way out and just bitch and moan on a web site that agrees with you INSTEAD of being out this morning picketing your local CC and passing out flyers that call people to repentance?

    Is it because you don’t really believe what you say, or that you are just a sissy?

  12. MLD= Most Likely a D*ck

  13. Not Alone,

    So, tell us about your protest today at your local CC? Did the flyers you passed out tell the attenders that they needed to repent of the sin of supporting a CC?

    Or are you like the rest, all grumbling – no action? I say you don’t believe in the cause either.

    Arm chair grumblers – you are all alike, no commitment to your cause.

  14. Not Alone, I can remove the “most likely” for you as I’ve had much dialogue with Gene LOL.

    Nice try Gene Schneider.

    I think some protests would be great…and like Martin Luther, maybe a list of reforms nailed to the Costa Mesa door.

  15. mld,
    why is your first response to my words to deflect away from what they say and redirect it back as a personal attack on me?

    to answer, the fact that i’m not picketing the nearest CC to me 1) doesn’t have anything to do with what i said and 2) doesn’t invalidate what i said. ultimately, i think picketing would only be rude and ineffective and bring unwanted mockery from those who just want more reason to reject Christ. and you threw that out as hyperbole anyways.
    for someone who says they don’t have skin in the game or a dog in the fight, you sure do seem to protect and defend the CC system and the abusers. you of course are free to, but i fail to see the motivation to do so…

    it’s easy and plain to understand why i don’t post on PP anymore. like alex, i’ve been banned, no great loss, for disagreeing with the blog master. my reflexive question to you would be why you would come all the way to the blog of a person you so disagree with just to pursue the fight? also fail to see your motivation for doing so…

    by the way, why don’t you use your real name or at least your first name? anyone can launch attacks behind a moniker. takes a man to be honest enought to ‘own’ them by name.

  16. I think since there is clearly an Ecclesiastical Structure (as there was before with CCCM/CCOF who Chuck Smith confirms in his email was there to deal with “problems”) in the Calvary Chapel Association, folks should fire up their “problem letters” and request the New CC look into their beefs with CCSP’s.

  17. I would probably personally consider some sort of protest at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, however Nick VanderLaan reports that he stood up at CCCM to question the presence of Ergun Caner, and was summarily surrounded by CCCM representatives/security, cuffed up, led away and held against his will and denied water and bathroom etc until police arrived.

    Nick was charged with some sort of bogus charge. He fought it and won.

    Bob Grenier’s got a small army of security as well and Bob packs a gun, so protesting like Gene Schneider recommends, might not be the best advice. I may do it anyway, if there was a planned event, but others would need to consider the dangers of how CC has handled folks in the past who have protested.

  18. Gene’s an alright guy. He likes to mix it up and he’s buddies with Steve Wright and Grendal Hanks. They have coffee together and exchange Christmas cards or something like that.

    He can be an a-hole, but I can’t really fault him for that…it would be the pot calling the kettle black 🙂

    The only problem with Gene (MLD) is he forgets what he’s said before all the time. He says one thing one day and then argues against himself the next. I think it’s due to age.

  19. MiC,
    “or someone who says they don’t have skin in the game or a dog in the fight, you sure do seem to protect and defend the CC system and the abusers. you of course are free to, but i fail to see the motivation to do so… ”

    First off the reason I am here is that Alex invited me yesterday. Not once will you ever find that I have defended the CC ‘system’ – I balk at the tactics of the main voice of opposition. I left CC long ago over theological issues – I could say that you are tied at the hip with CC as I am sure that you still adopt their theology.

    Check with Alex and he will tell you that we used to be close online (the PP, FB and email) – I never opposed what he said or claimed. However, that all changed when he adopted a “scorched earth” policy. It has always been over tactics – never about the issues.

    As to my moniker, it goes along with blog theater – I have no idea if your name is really Michael or if you live in Chandler – for all I know you are really Joe from NYC – at the PP everyone knows who I am, I am FB friends with most (even Alex, when he doesn’t unfriend me every couple of months) and speak on the phone or email with several – not to mention the times we have met for meals.

    And just for the record, and many will find this surprising, I was the very first person banned from the PP in early 2006 – long before even Doug G.

    Michael, you are a rookie in this game.

  20. alex,
    once you get past 40 or 45 you’re more prone to CRS… Can’t Remember S*** as my dad used to say.

  21. “I would probably personally consider some sort of protest at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, ”

    The abortion people and the homosexuals have protested and not been arrested. The sidewalks are free access.

    Darwin Fish and his group protest Greg Laurie every year at the Harvest Crusades in the parking lot and the walkways up to the stadium entrance. They don’t get arrested. Have a massive protest against CC at Angels stadium in a couple of weeks.

  22. “once you get past 40 or 45”

    I think Alex is in that age range right now. 😉

  23. MLD said, “Check with Alex and he will tell you that we used to be close online (the PP, FB and email) – I never opposed what he said or claimed. However, that all changed when he adopted a “scorched earth” policy. It has always been over tactics – never about the issues.”

    Yes. I can vouch for that. He’s also a good dad, husband and grandfather from what I could tell on his FB thread. The only serious beef I’ve ever had with him was how he treated my brother Paul (who wasn’t in the mix and not a fair target IMO) but that’s water under the bridge. But, I did push Gene’s buttons pretty hard which is probably why he went there.

  24. LOL. I’m at the very very left end of that age range…and as you noted about the “narcissist” picture…I don’t look it 🙂

  25. MLD, could you see me staying across the street? LOL.

    I’d last about a minute, then I’d be on the Campus, then some CC thugs would surround me, then it would get ugly. It would be very unwise for me to put myself in that kind of situation.

    Plus, I did fly to Costa Mesa already and met with the Great and Powerful Oz and have spent plenty of time and money over the 7 year battle. If something comes up locally in my area, a protest would not be out of the question. If I was still in Visalia, I’d probably protest regularly.

  26. I think now that CC has a clearly defined Ecclesiastical Structure, I’ll begin to lobby Damian Kyle.

  27. Gene…
    yes, my name is really michael and i do in fact live in chandler az. no subterfuge here.
    as far as history goes with PP, i’m not really too concerned. how much ‘history’ does one need to be considered ‘eligible’ for exchanges of ideas and opinion?
    I’m not really that curious about whether you have been banned in the past from PP. i don’t wear that as a badge of honor anymore than you should (or for that matter the fact that you were apprantly subsequently ‘allowed back in’ on good behavior) i just don’t care. my value doesn’t derive from ‘inclusion’ in the ‘game’ in which you say i’m a rookie.
    rookie? didn’t think it was a game to be played or i had to earn a spot on the team?

    as for my theology being ‘tied to the hip’ of CC… i would disagree. and you don’t know me well enough to make such a statement about what i do and do not believe. just another deflection trying to ‘straw man’ me into silence and submission. not going to work brother schneider.

  28. I also plan to pursue my law degree, learn as much as I can about the laws governing non profits and churches, child abuse, what constitutes negligence and also see if there are holes where folks could sue the church for back tithes/giving if there is fraud or misinformation or deceit on the part of the church that would’ve affected their giving had they not been lied to and defrauded.

  29. Yes, Michael in Chandler is a real dude and his name is Michael. I’ve read at his blogsite, etc.

  30. gene
    but you are more than welcome to see for yourself some of the ‘theology’ and articles on my blog as well as to comment and dialogue with me there on what you may disagree with. i promise to treat you with respect, patience and honesty. try me?

  31. I scouted the CCV compound for protest. Spoke with a sheriff officer, he said it would last about 5 minutes on the county road with no sidewalk right next door to the main sheriff’s house who attends during election times only.

  32. MiC,
    I wasn’t really questioning your name – I was making the point that if someone posted under the name Bill Smith instead of Little Flower, does not mean that his name is really Bill Smith and that he is owning anything in his statements.

    When I was banned from the PP it over the exact objections I make here – Michael’s tactics were horrid – and I was one who had just left Ocean Hills prior to the uproar. Not once did I defend Skip H – but blasted Michael over his own “scorched earth” policy.

  33. Not Alone,
    Stand at a grocery store near the church and pass out anti Bob/ anti CC flyers – warning the whole town.

  34. Alex,
    Thanks for the kind comments in your #23 🙂

  35. Gene, there’s nothing close enough to Bob’s compound…and he is bff’s with the VPD and good friends with both the Sheriff and DA. It couldn’t be any more small town good ‘ol boys club.

    I still think a protest could be pulled off though, especially in conjunction with a Child Abuse Month or something similar, that way media would be more inclined to participate.

    I don’t think Bob is the only bad guy in this situation though, he is just a microcosm. Chuck Smith is your guilty party as he has ignored this sort of stuff for years and created the System that gives bad guys like Bob their power through his endorsement and the Brand.

  36. More effective would be the shop on the corner were Bob harassed the owner so badly she tried to take her own life. They just don’t want more trouble from him. They are afraid of what he will do next.

    Men who claim to pastors but are really evil bastards at heart are scary. Especially that nut job with his spiky hair and crazy eyes.

    Protests are for chick fil et. Constantly blogging everywhere about his molestation of his own son will destroy his net cred and eventually the authorities will do something. Look how long the Penn State thing took. It will happen, Pastor Bob Grenier will go to jail and hopefully his sons will have some peace.

  37. I can’t ever let it go, b/c I see the damage it’s done to my brothers and so many many others. I have tried ignoring it, living in Denial, etc. Doesn’t last long. I am constantly reminded of the results of Bob’s evil. I choose to deal with it in the manner I do, it’s helped me overcome it, despite what the Dave Rolph’s say about drinking poison and hoping the other guy dies. That’s spin and myth IMO. I drink the poison when I don’t respond to conviction and when I ignore the ongoing bad situation and do nothing, knowing the status quo continues.

  38. When you bring Chuck Smith into it, you take away the responsibility Bob has. You watch, your tactic will be the exact same one used when the Colorado theater shooter comes to trial… it will be someone else’s fault that he killed all those people.

    If only person X would have done action Y 3 years ago, this poor guy would not have shot up the theater. This is what you are doing when you say Chuck and the CC system are at fault.

    Perhaps you are better suited to be a defense attorney. 😉

  39. I remember A Believer. I think he was the one that gave me a link to a grace site that he likes. A theological system that doesn’t mesh at all with Calvary Chapel theology. So even on the theological level, not consistent.

  40. gene,
    i disagree that discussions among brothers in christ are not ‘theater’ nor are they a ‘game’ to be played and they don’t have neopphyte/adept classes which separate or ‘qualify’ one for participation or respectful treatment. this isn’t a RPG for christians, compartmentalized and irrelevant to real life.
    people are people, not gamers
    people hurt other people sometimes even in the name of God
    if we care about them, we can’t expect them to just shut up and go away for the sake of ‘keeping the peace’, ‘playing nice’ and ‘building consensus’ with their abusers.

    alex has resorted, right or wrong, to scorched earth because for almost a ‘decade’ no one cared when he went thru the system and tried the ‘nice’ way. Pope Chuck not only blew him off but attacked him personally from the pulpit. where is your outrage for tactics there? BG is ‘still’ a CC pastor with full support and backing of the system that ‘enables’ the continued abuse of others and unrepentant seemingly unaccountable men. where is your indignation at their ‘tactics’?

    it’s clear to anyone that alex will not be quiet. he wants justice that he probably won’t get because for CC or CS to admit responsibility or remove BG would open the doors to lawsuits because of ‘agency’. so, they deny and lie and cover up and get pastors and cut outs to ‘infiltrate’ PP or other forums to shut down the discussion by turning the tables on those who would dare to question, challenge or rebuke the beast.

    my quandry with you is still what is your motivation, having left CC years ago, obviously different theology and admitting the PP’s harshness from time to time… why do you still do the work of knuckling people into submission and silence? what do you have to gain? i just can’t figure it out… never will i guess.

  41. Gene, the fish rots from the head and it’s documented fact that Chuck Smith is a liar now. I’m pulling his comments from the radio interview, the CCCM fatwa and the “meeting” and contrasting them to the recent email to CCSP’s.

    IMO, Chuck has responsibility for setting up the System that allows a Bob Grenier to have the power he has and to draw the crowd he draws…and Chuck has the responsibility through CCOF (which he now admits) to deal with “problems”…and now they pledge to deal with “problems” through this new Ecclesiastical Structure.

    When Chuck sets the example of giving Bob Grenier a passing grade after all the testimony and carnage I presented him…along with the molestation allegations from Paul…it is even more damaging than what Bob has done…b/c it tells the rest of Calvary Chapel that there really is nothing you can do that will get you disciplined unless you are arrested or if you are gay or emergent or calvinist.

    It’s called Moral Hazard. It’s a cancer.

  42. “i disagree that discussions among brothers in christ are not ‘theater’ ”

    sorry, i erred…
    meant to say,
    “i disagree that discussions among brothers in christ are ‘theater’ “

  43. MiC,
    If you know anything at all about me over the years at PP, you would know that my main interest is the discussion of theology and the total failure and weakness of American Evangelicalism, the fact that the theology is wrong and destructive in itself – not to mention denying the words of Jesus. But that is another story..

    I have never once commented on Alex’s issues – I have never made comment on anyone’s issues with individual people, whether it be CC, SGM, Mars Hill. I have no idea if the stories about CJ whatshisname, or Mark Driscoll are true. I can only point to their theology that allows for their crazy behavior..

    The fact that I can remain friendly with people who hold to those weird doctrines, seems to be something people here cannot imagine.

    Everyone can’t be concerned with everything.

  44. “i disagree that discussions among brothers in christ are ‘theater’ “

    My moniker let’s people know that I am a Lutheran. And much of what I do on blogs is theater. Any time anyone uses hyperbole – it’s theater… so now are you going to tell me you don’t use hyperbole? Blaming Chuck Smith for Bob Grenier’s actions is hyperbole.

    So, why Michael in Chandler – why hide behind that? Why don’t you use first and last name?

    (I don’t want to know your name)

  45. Mr. Bean,
    The fact that John thinks for himself and doesn’t walk in lock step with CC theology should be a plus on his side.

    Guilty if you follow the CC line and guilty is you don’t. Hate for C has blinded many here.

  46. I’m not blind. I am Mr. Bean’s Disciple. Since he sees, I see.

    The point was the inconsistency, and that is what Alex pointed out. Ecumenicalism has blinded many at PP

  47. Alex,
    Going back to the title of this thread “why things don’t change for the better”. I think that the main reason is you. You have caused such a commotion, and not for the good, that you have made the cause about you, not abuse, and the very people who could help you now ‘dig in their heals’ against you.

    None of your so called friends on this site can help you. Many at the other site could have and at one time wanted to. But you killed them all off. In your ‘win at all costs’ you have chased off the last of them.

    Do you really think guys like Doug G care about helping your cause? Hell no, he just whats to add comments to his wiki… at your expense.

  48. Mr. Bean’s Disciple,
    So, do you agree with everything your church (I am assuming you are a Christian and do go to church) teaches?

    If there is something you disagree with, does that make you inconsistent, or does that make you a thinker?

  49. gene,
    i think it’s an unfair and ‘hyperbolic’ statement to say hate for C is being expressed. i haven’t seen one such ‘I hate CS’ or any other person. rather, what people ‘hate’ if you have to use the term which wasn’t being used by us, is the duplicity, subterfuge and outright contemptable ‘behavior’ and unaccounatbility that passes for pastoral leadership and spiritual authority in the system. that is worthy of our contempt and hatred. no one ‘hates’ in that sense the ‘person’ of chuck smith. we hate what CC and the system has created and allowed to fester into. your assertion that people just hate CS is another exampple of deflection and misdirection away from the truth.
    i assume from what i know of you and what you have written that you are intelligent and well thought out. i have no reason to think otherwise or cast aspersions at you as you have at us. so, again I ask. what do you have to gain by unwittingly doing their work for them of silencing alex and others who speak out? why work so hard to shut him up and marginalize those calling for justice and accountability?

  50. MiC,
    How can you say that I have silenced Alex or that I want to? I am the one that suggested that they make public protest, that they picket the churches, that the hand out leaflets, that they picket the CC recruiting agency called the Harvest Crusade, and warn unaware non believers, not to become believers within the CC system.

    I am the only one who is trying to get you guys to take effective action and not just beat up on CC pastor’s who have their hands full trying to do good for their own local flock.

    Silence is not even in question – pissing off your former supporters is stupid.

    So now that I have given you all the push to be publiclly vocal, when are you going to get started.

  51. gene
    so it’s ‘alex’s’ fault nothing will change and the system continues to pander to if not create abusers? that is rich.
    If alex would just shut up and go away.. if he would just suck it up and get a life… then what? all would be well in Storyland? people would automatically be motivated to change the system from within? hasn’t happened yet.
    no, what people want is to blame the abused for the ’embarassment’ of light being shone on the problems and problem pastors.
    it’s tantamout to telling the rape victim to just be quiet and the rapist will turn himself in.
    puleeze! why do you persist in making the victim guilty for their victimization?

  52. gene
    you don’t honestly expect people to actively picket a church? after you… but ‘I’ expect you are just using that as a red herring…. ‘unless you are willing to picket the CC church nearest, you don’t believe what you are saying and should just shut up’ ok, you didn’t say this quote, but you did imply to me and not alone that we didnt believe what we said or have commitment to the cause unless we picketed. the implication was dismissive of doing or saying anything unless we did.

    don’t pretend you were being honest and ‘actually’ advocating picketting a church. i may have been born in ‘cornfield county, kansas’, but i’m not that stupid.

  53. gene,
    “The fact that I can remain friendly with people who hold to those weird doctrines, seems to be something people here cannot imagine”

    i think you have a funny definition of ‘friendly’. you may want to have a doctor look at that.

  54. MiC,
    OK, I will not call you cornfield stupid, but either your reading skills or you comprehension skills are lacking. Nowhere did I blame the abuse Alex received on him the victim. But that is just a flair you guys throw up to misdirect you own guilt.

    Alex’s abuse and what he is trying to do to CC are 2 separate issues – and that is the point I am making. When Bob abused Alex 20 yrs ago, it was not at all because of CC or Chuck. Bob abused his kids because he was an abusive father.

    What Alex is now trying to do has nothing to do with the act of abuse but about CC and CS’s reaction all these years later to that abuse. Two different things.

    So, my comment about the blog title and Alex hurting his own cause still stands – just like Ale says that a guy working in the graphic arts department of a large corporations is impeding progress to justice with in CC because he will not quit his job of 30 yrs.

  55. “you don’t honestly expect people to actively picket a church? ”

    Of course I do – the pro abortion people and the homos do it all the time. Is this cause not worthy of picket and protest? If not, then sit down and be quiet.

    During 60s I participated in protests and sit ins at my university. During the 80s I participated in protests and picketing abortion clinics – is not this cause just as just.

    Do you just think it is wrong in itself to protest a church?

    Again, you guys do not really believe what you say – if the safety of children is really at stake – why not?

  56. gene
    “If not, then sit down and be quiet.”
    yes!! and we have confirmation… by the way, not very ‘friendly’ to those you disagree with, nor is it ‘affirming’ to the victims.

    aside from your comment on my reading or comprehension skills (by the way, really? why do you choose to attack personally first before you comment? do you think it’s funny or ‘friendly’?), i will not do likewise on the intelligence or compassion of your statement above. in my opinion, take it for what it’s worth, not really your best line of reasoning or argument.
    if you don’t want to hear the ‘bitching and moaning’ as you call it, then go back to PP and be a good, submissive, ‘cumbaya’ lutheran. your choice.
    at least here i don’t think alex will ban you for disagreeing or trying to get your point accross. tolerance goes both ways brother gene.

  57. gene
    alex’s abuse by BG was 20yrs ago, but he’s had the toughest time with getting CC or CS to care to the point of removing the lying, abusing, manipulating SOB from his CCCM supported and ‘affiliated’ pulpit. and we both know chuck could do it easily. he just doesn’t care enough to and doesn’t want to run the risk of lawsuits based on other CC pastors or situations on account of ‘agency’ responsibility.
    you want to ignore that link and ‘keep the peace’ by pretending none of this stuff has real world implications. with no dog in te hunt, no skin in the game… i’m still curious why? but i probably won’t get an answer that isn’t laced with snarky, sarcastic and non-sequiter personal attacks. whoi knows, i probably don’t deserver and honest answer. i’m just a ‘rookie’, haven’t earned the right.

  58. MiC,
    How else am I to read this comment, if not to assume that you misread my comment?

    “no, what people want is to blame the abused for the ‘embarassment’ of light being shone on the problems and problem pastors.”

    If you want to show the statement I made that led you to that conclusion, fine.Otherwise you are not being genuine in your comments..

    So. are you not friendly with people who you disagree with on doctrine? Are you not friends with anyone who disagrees with you on this point?

    Alex and I have said many times during our ‘debates’ that we could still go out and have a beer together.

  59. “you want to ignore that link and ‘keep the peace’ by pretending none of this stuff has real world implications.”

    But I do care – but i separate the abuse (what Bob did on his own 20 yrs ago) and Alex’s fight with CC. I fully support Alex’s efforts – but as I have said many times, not his tactics.

    You know, the Palestinians have been terribly abused by the Israelis for 60 yrs – terrible abuse, that i think needs to be addressed and the Israeli government held accountable. But I do not support their acts of violence like suicide bombers to get the world’s attention – even they say since they have no voice, this is the ONLY action they can take to get anyone to notice.

    The cause is not always a justifying reason for any and all actions. This should not be that hard to discern.

  60. gene
    this and i’m done for tonight.
    do you even know how to consider someone else’s thoughts and respond to them in a respectful, non-snarky way that doesn’t try to make them seem like the biggest idiot in the room… without turning their argument or POV around on them as a personal attack?

    i wish i could say this was an endearing quality about you, but although we may be brothers in Christ Jesus I would be much more likely to not go or be anywhere with you if you acted this way around me or anyone I cared about.

    debate? is that what this is to you? another game to make the other ‘sucker’ look more like a fool? you really should examine yourself. you may not like what you find. i’m sure i don’t.

  61. MiC,
    You still have not answered why, if the safety of children is at stake in this whole CC abuse scandal / coverup, why you don’t think the churches should be picketed?

  62. MiC,
    That’s just the way you blow off people who won’t fold under your constant pressure and finally agree with you.

    Let’s see, I have said;
    1.) I agree with Alex’s cause – I just disagree with his tactics.
    2.) I said that Boob G did abuse his kids – but at the time of the crime, it was not CC’s or CS’s fault.
    3.) I have invited you guys to get more active and be more publicly vocals – take to the streets like the homos do.
    4.) I have tried to convince you that if the safety of kids is really at stake, you can’t just sit at your computers, you must get out and do some real action.

    If my pointing this out has made you feel foolish, then I do not apologize.

    OK, I gotta run the grandkids back to Newport Beach to their parents house.

  63. LOL!

  64. @62
    2.) I said that Boob G did abuse his kids – but at the time of the crime, it was not CC’s or CS’s fault.

    MLD, I dont think anyone thinks it’s anyone’s “fault” other than the accused (alleged).
    Why is it Alex’s responsibility to go to to a church and like the town crier shout from a mountaintop and try and get oblivious people on his “side”?
    Maybe those people will stop attending, but the issue is that the Pastors position is still there. And eventually, there will be a new crowd. The issue is that there has been no consequence for his behavior because those who admit it happened, by allowing him to continue being a Pastor, are enabling him to continue in his sin.
    To me, by avoiding dealing with sin, you are not helping the abused or the abuser and not doing God’s will. Plain and simple. You are protecting the abuser and thus punishing the wrong person. The abused gets no justice and the abuser walks free without any discipline. People say that God will take care of it all. Well, Paul was responsible for all his churches. God appoints people who make the SP accountable and when CS won’t do anything, I believe he is not in obedience .

    I understand Alex’s frustration (not knowing him) because he is reasoning with those in leadership, who as teachers should be in the “meat” of the word to teach it and recieve it, and who should understand what “TRUTH” is according to the Word, and they still reject it and excuse it in what seems like misplaced loyalty to an institution or some shared comaraderie.It has to be beyond frustrating. Well, thats my observation. And I understand because I have lived it. When you plead with others to do what should be natural to them as it is to you (and honoring to the Lord) for justice to prevail… it is like a dagger in your heart.
    Forgive me Alex, if I am overstepping my boundaries….

    So, it not CC’s or CS’s “fault” but since they know about it, and agree that it happened, they now have a responsibility to do the right thing. This principle is all over the NT.

    BTW, good to see you here.

  65. MLD/Gene – So many things you have written… I have to choose which piece of your miscreant screed to respond to…

    Let’s pick just a couple…

    I have picketed Harvest Crusades at Anaheim Stadium when I lived in So Cal. I have attempted various actions when I was in So Cal at CCCM. When I lived in So Cal I called into TWFT and exposed Greg Laurie for his heretical teachings on the Trinity. You can listen to the recording on the wiki page.

    I don’t live near a local CC right now and they have so little traction where I live that I don’t see the need to give them any attention.

    As to my using Alex for my Wiki… Really??? I happen to believe Alex and we are definitely kindred spirits. The wiki examines many areas of CC sinfulness and what happened to Alex is one of many examples. There’s a consistent pattern of sin that you (perhaps ignorantly) are glossing over by what you are doing here.

    Contrary to predictions from the folks of PP that Alex and I would end up in a fight and banned from each other, I’d say we have maintained a good relationship. I respect his view and actions – even reposting and calling out people who are in the place to make a difference. I might cringe at what he says or does at times, but on reflection I see the reasoning behind it. if anything I think that Alex tends to be too hard on himself.

  66. Hannah,
    Thank you for your welcome. I said early on that if Chuck Smith defrocked Bob tonight, took away the company marks (the name and the dove) that the church would still be there, Bob would still be the pastor and the congregation would probably not know the difference – Bob would probably spin it that it was at his request.

    Why should Alex cry from the rooftops? Well, he is the one who made that imperative. He has said many times, that children are in harms way because CC and CS will not address the issue. So, do you not think that if everyone here REALLY believes that children are in harms way that everyone should not be warned?

    You cannot do that by sitting behind your computer.

  67. Gene wrote “) I said that Boob G did abuse his kids – but at the time of the crime, it was not CC’s or CS’s fault.”

    The question isn’t one of fault, it’s one of responsibility. Of course it wasn’t directly Smith’s fault EXCEPT that he did put in place a system which allowed abuse to happen. Abuse can happen in the best of systems, but Smith’s is genuinely the worst of systems so he does bear responsiblity for what happened to Alex.

    At what time was it not Chuck Smith’s responsiblity? Once he knew about it he had a responsibliity to do something about it. Or does Chuckles hear so many complaints about CCSPs abusing their kids that he’s become numb to them? That’s the only rational explanation I could see.

    Chuck continues to want to have it both ways.

  68. I challenge anyone to explain to me the difference between the suthority structure of CC and the JIm Jones’ “People’s Temple”.

  69. MLD wrote “You cannot do that by sitting behind your computer.”

    Actually you can…

    Look at the numbers. Alex has a much bigger impact by audience size here than he ever could picketing at some local CC.

    I can only conclude that you feel CCs are no less safe than any other church otherwise you would not be defending them here. You are wrong, but you have the right to be wrong in this world.

  70. Tundra/ Doug,
    So I would think that you would encourage Alex and his group here to get down to Angel’s Stadium and warn the neophytes not to get saved at that event because they will be funneled into a non caring, child abusing fake denomination.

    Is that not worthy of protest? Since you have the experience, I would suggest you fly out and organize the event. You have 3 weeks to plan.

    Hey, better yet, picket the CC churches that are doing the simulcast at their local church.

  71. Doug,

    You are echoing what I have said.

    It is not Alex’s place (biblically) to do anything other than make known the abuse to the right person (Which he did) and expect that this person in authority will do what the Bible instructs. (what he didn’t do)
    Why is this concept hard to understand? It is so simple.
    If CS would have done what he is instructed and demanded to do , there would not be any discussion.
    It was probably more frustrating to Alex after speaking with CS because he was able to ask him if he believed what happene to him. Once CS said he believed sit back and do nothing seems inexcusable.

  72. Tundra / Doug,
    “I can only conclude that you feel CCs are no less safe than any other church otherwise you would not be defending them here.”

    You guys must read selectively – I have not once defended CC or CS. In fact I am telling you guys to get off your butts and do something constructive and not just pity party talk to each other.

  73. This article and the last help to substantiate my long held conclusion that CC is rotten to the core. They have inoculated themselves from the prompting of the Holy Spirit that they are so proud of touting submission too. They have anesthetized themselves from the ability of recognizing the importance and need for heartfelt repentance. Our current day PC attitude of can’t we all just get along is preposterous at the least and blasphemous at its worst. Paul called false theology “doctrine of demons”. We call it someone’s interpretation and perspective on a given passage of scripture. If it was intended to be complicated God would have made it such. It was only intended to be complicated to the blind in spirit. Dr. Walter Martin stated it correctly in his book Kingdom of the Cults. The cults like to use the phrase “That’s your interpretation, not mine”. I guess its time to call a spade a spade. If they can’t understand the things associated to the general will aspect of God’s calling how can they be trusted to know those things associated to the specific will calling of their lives. The blind leading the blind. As for what I have heard of the PHXP site. Out of respect for those on this site who maintain a relationship with those on that site I will withhold my lambasting of the site. Suffice it to say that if it was a blog printed on toilet paper I’d have use for it.

  74. Hanna,
    “It is not Alex’s place (biblically) to do anything other than make known the abuse to the right person (Which he did) and expect that this person in authority will do what the Bible instructs. (what he didn’t do)”

    OK, so he has done that. So why is he now outside of what you said was his biblical responsibility?

  75. Can you rephrase your last sentence?

  76. Raymond D.,
    So you agree with me that Alex should stop being so PC and he should take it to the streets?

    Talk about the blind leading the blind = “As for what I have heard of the PHXP site.”

    You have an opinion about something you haven’t even looked at yourself???

  77. Hannah,
    “Can you rephrase your last sentence?”

    Sure, you said that it was Alex’s biblical responsibility to “make known the abuse to the right person ” He has done that – he brought it to Chuck Smith’s attention as you said was his only biblical responsibility.

    So why is he doing all this other stuff since it apparently does not fall into his biblical responsibility?

  78. gene,
    i know i was going to leave this alone for the night, but you had to just poke at it when you thought i wouldn’t defend myself. bullies do that too.

    i said before, i don’t think your encouragement to picket is an honest or sincere challenge, but just a ruse/ploy to manipulate peole into silence. and you proved it yourself in #55.
    as to answering your question about me not picketing? i DID answer it in my #15 when you threw it out there. i could see the trick play ahead of your admission.
    so just admit to yourself as you have to us that the whole ‘picketing’ thing was just another attempt to make us look like idiots for daring to challenge the beast.

    by the way, you never did answer my missive… why does it matter so much to you to paint alex as a fool and trouble maker? why did you follow him over here to bang on him after he got banned from PP? and don’t say alex asked you to come and mock him… i’m not nearly that gullible (kansas hick not withstanding)

  79. MLD,

    I need to get off, but I want to repeat..this is a sin issue.

    You are making demands on the wrong person.
    When there is no accountability, sin runs rampant. There is no stopping it. It is like a cancer.
    And it would be better for CS to cut out the cancer than let it metastasize.
    It is his God-given responsibility for the sake of the eternal consequences of that Pastor.

    Isn’t our ultimate goal holiness and sanctification?
    It is an obligation and demand for another Pastor to discipline one who he knows is in sin.

    Good nite.

  80. Doug,
    Your #67 – that is why I separate the actual abuse 20 yrs ago and the response today.

    I agree that Bob is a dog and that perhaps CC responded poorly.

    But OJ killed Nicole and got away with it,Robert Blake killed his wife and got away with it and Christians all over the world show and watch The Passion even though it has anti Semitic overtones and was made by a rabid ant Semite.

    There are all kinds of injustices in this world – but Alex goes after the innocent , like the CC pastors that he targets. (just remember, if you watch The Passion you support antisemitism.

  81. MLD

    No. I’m tired of CC being so PC.

    “Blind leading the blind” as in CC leadership

    I have looked at PHXP and interacted. have heard studies from Mike and am aware, know, have known in the past, personally, some of the players discussed on the site as well as the issues as stated here to include my own personal experiences over the past 30 years. have addressed my concerns with leadership to include those within CCCM, CCFTL, CCGS, CCOB, CCMM, CCLM, CCO hierarchy. Sorry for the confusion. I try to stay as brief as possible so that some on the site can keep up. Apparently thats not working for you.

  82. @77
    You need to ask him. I am not even sure what “all this other stuff” means…

  83. Hannah,
    I am not making demands on anyone. I am playing the other side of Alex – who demands that everyone agree with his point of view on this topic, or he sets out to destroy them – as he hopes to do with AV, A Believer, Dave Rolf and any others who get in his way – is that still covered under his “biblical” responsibility?

  84. “So why is he doing all this other stuff since it apparently does not fall into his biblical responsibility?”

    because CS blew him off, refused to do anything and then attacked him from the pulpit! He doesn’t care, refuses to take responsibility for what should be his: Defrock BG, ‘unaffliate’ CCV, and publicly apologize for refusing to act earlier and lying about the situation…
    i know you are smarter than you let on, brother gene. but please be honest. why are you defending the indefensible and what’s your motivation for pushing back and attempting to silence alex and this blog’s participants demanding justice? i really don’t get you at all. help me out here.

  85. @80

    MLD, are you actually comparing the “world” and the way they do things to the church?
    You are kidding, right?

  86. MLD @83 says

    “I am playing the other side of Alex – who demands that everyone agree with his point of view on this topic, or he sets out to destroy them – as he hopes to do with AV, A Believer, Dave Rolf and any others who get in his way – is that still covered under his “biblical” responsibility?”

    Apparently it is. After all Alex’s orthopraxy has been influenced by his tenure and relationship with CC and they do it all the time. MLD, is the pot calling the kettle black?

  87. MiC,
    I answer questions directly and then you take them out of context. Hannah said that Alex had only ONE biblical responsibility – I pointed out that he has fulfilled his ONE biblical responsibility and I asked why is he doing the other stuff that is NOT his biblical responsibility.

    If you have an issue with correct biblical responsibility – take it up with Hannah – she brought it up.

  88. gene, your #80,
    “but Alex goes after the innocent , like the CC pastors that he targets. ”

    ru kidding me? do you even know what complicity and silent approval mean? and those CC pastors, knowing what they know and the truth of what alex brings in his and his brothers situation, and the many stories from other pastors, youth leaders and financial shenanigans… they know…. and yet do nothing. more than do nothing, they attack alex for bringing them to light and demanding something be done. these innocent CC pastors you speak of that post on PP are knowing ALL this like the john shaffer of this article of alex’s… wow brother, you’ve gotta be swilling some great koolaide to say something like that.
    what interest did you say you had in all this ‘defense’ and ‘bullying’ again?

  89. Raymond,
    I left CC years ago over their theology – I said earlier that American Evangelicalism is very lacking and any who still hold to it are failures.

  90. Darn: gene finally said something that struck a chord of truth. I confess I did see The Passion. And I am Jewish. And consider myself an anti-semite…like most Lutherans. German and Jewish b’tards . Let ’em all rot. And I have picketed my former synagogue over the issue of the rabbi getting a new Caddilac every year. When I also picketed CCCM last year along Sunflower Street, Chuck and his minions approached me and took me out to lunch at Katella Deli. Maybe Alex should have taken him there?

  91. MiC,
    That’s right, they know Alex’s side.

    But are you suggesting that Alex’s tactic to destroy these folks professionally is the right thing to do?

  92. Hiym Wright is the typical Alex follower.

  93. You must mean Alex Trebec

  94. Gene, gene…the dancing machine. Weren’t you on the Gong Shoe with Chuck Barris?

  95. Hiym,
    yes I was.

    I was raised a Jew, that’s why I can’t be an evangelical, as they preach with joy of gathering all the Jews in the valley at the end times and killing almost all of them – joyfully to welcome Jesus home.

    I used to eat at the katella deli.

  96. Then please answer these two questions if you will:

    1. Why don’t you attend a Messianic church? Sounds anti-Semitic to me?
    2. Is your bubba proud of you for betraying her faith?

  97. P.s. Don’t mess with Raymond D. We were bar mitzvah’ed together at Congregation Mogan David on Pico Blvd.

  98. 1.) Messianic Jews like Jews for Jesus are fake Chrisians, they need to choose a faith and not have one foot in each. You may put up with Christians for Mohammed but I don’t.

    2.) My bubbie was long gone by the time I became a christian at 32. My mom and I had some discussions.

  99. Sorry about your bubbie. Do you prefer corned or pepper beef sandwiches? Katella had Killa rye bread, but the best was Factors in LA. I left CC and now attend Jews for Babba Ram Das.

  100. I was always partial to Canter’s myself and was thrilled to find one in the Treasure Island hotel in Las Vegas.

    I also enjoy Sherman’s Deli in Palm Springs.

    But Mel Gibson is still a Jew baiter and a maker of an anti Semitic movie.

  101. Well. All the goyum have now stood down for the night. Maybe my cantor was right…they are all chazers (pronounced “Ha-zers) you morons.

  102. Sherman’s Deli…right across from the old Spa Hotel. Nice. Good night

  103. Good night

  104. They call me the Hebrew at the Pawn Shops…b/c I pinch the pennies 🙂 I take it as a compliment. We all go back to Noah, so I guess we all got a little Hebrew in us 🙂

    Another Jewish buddy tells me, however, that it takes two Jews to equal an Armenian (not to be confused with Arminian)…so maybe they need to change my nickname 😆

  105. You know Alex in someways we come from similar pasts, I wont go into my “past” and I never compare pain as it is individual and how it impacts each person is unique. I understand your desire for justice, reconciliation, and protection of innocents. Grief and frustration go hand in hand. Personally I would never tell you to stop or even tone down your quest, nor to be steered of the course you see God calling you to.

    But CS will not change, gravity will fail before that happens, even an act from a sovereign God could not accomplish this. That is how it is. Some justice / reconciliation cannot happen on this side of eternity. Take me for instance I get so extremely frustrated with the denial of science, the blatant misrepresentation of the theory of evolution, the age of the earth and other aspects of our sojourning as a species on this planet. Even being referred to as an animal and a primate, that does not change our worth one little bit. But because it threatens some theological ideas the subjects cannot be broached, professors loose their jobs and preachers write stupid mind numbing books to win the “battle for the beginning”. Of course I could be wrong, often am, but they cannot give an inch on any theological stance as their house of cards is built on a very shaking sand pile.

    I use this as an analogy, I do not expect to win this battle, it is not a hill I would die on, not even fight on. Your battle is a hill to die on especially reconciliation and the protection of children. Now Michael has been a friend of mine, though I have never met him. He has never judged me or resigned me to the pit, even when I stated I am a universalist, hold to the validity of the evidence that supports the ToE, and old earth / universe cosmology and am strongly attracted to sacramental theology.

    Of course I would chuck all my beliefs in a second if I thought it would damage another persons faith, which is why I do not ask such questions at church or on most blogs etc. But that is another post. I have lost most of my family, many friends and well over 100 students in my “career” / life. In all that I can think of maybe two or three times the local real life body has given me even a passing sense of grace. I have come to consider such “needs” as completely unreasonable. Of course they are not, I took my hurt and went out looking for salt to rub in it so I can remember the pain. Pain keeps me numb and it is also comforting and in a way easy. I am not saying you do this but it is just the road I have traveled.

    Offered for what little it may be worth, I just do not wish to see you get stuck in the rut I was in for so long and still am in.

  106. Thanks brian. You are someone I’ve always appreciated reading. I am very sorry for your recent situation and apologize for the collateral damage. over there. It sucks losing a mother.

  107. brian, I want you to know that I don’t want Michael to shut down his blog and I think the only solution is for me to be banned as I can’t promise I won’t offend many folks over there again. I also agreed to ‘try’ and not bring stuff over here as long as stuff isn’t brought up about me.

    I don’t know what Michael is going to do, but I do sincerely want the PP to stay for people like you.

  108. It’s really the CC guys treating things as if all is hunky dory with CC and making statements like “Chuck has so much integrity” etc that I just can’t stomach. I wish I could let stuff go and I wish I could not dominate and not respond to shots taken at me, etc. I know myself too well, I can’t do it, not consistently.

  109. We all leave collateral damage, it is one of the many reasons we need a Savior. Michael is a man of God and will do what is needed, my main hope is that CC, your family and you can come to some understanding. There is hope even after death, at times it is all we can cling to.

  110. I am sorry for your loss Brian. Know that many from both blogs are praying for you.
    May God hold you close in this time of grief.

  111. Thank you Alex for what you write here. You are very courageous. It amazes me how some just don’t have ears to hear.

  112. Thank You God has always held me / us close in times of grief, anger, and hopelessness. Thank you all and I wish you all the very best.

  113. Emjoying Gene’s latest argument around Mel Gibson.

    Wondering if Gene could ponder a question (since I know he doesn’t actually answer anything I am just askm for a pondering)…

    I wonder what the difference is between his hero/namesake, “Martin Luther” and Mel Gibson? Both had pretty similar views when it came to the Jews. I fact, I think you can find some nastier things written by Luther…

  114. Of course all should recognize Gene’s MO/point here. He comes and complains about how Alex is dominating PP with his agenda all the while trying to make his point by doing here exactly what he condemns Alex for there. He is either trying to make that point or the least self conscious person on the planet (both are possible).

    Easy enough to recognize the MO. The difference is not one of method, but one of substance. Alex has/brings substance. Gene has/brings none.

  115. This may be the moment of truth for John Shaffer – the chance to take a stand for truth. There is a cost… As Sheck about the cost… But ask him if the cost is worth it or not…

    Can/should they participate anonymously without any chance/fear of exposure? What is their motivation for participation? Is it to mute the critics subtley?

  116. MLD – “Messianic Jews like Jews for Jesus are fake Chrisians, they need to choose a faith and not have one foot in each.”

    What a sickening statement. Very ugly. Such a doctrinally ignorant statement overlooks the fact that Jesus Christ is born Jewish, a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So those that are physically Jewish by nationality, and choose Jesus as Savior, are Jews for Jesus.

    But MLD’s catholic-based lutheran beliefs won’t permit that Biblical truth.

  117. Doug,
    You are an hostorical weakling. You need to study you Luther a bit more. Let me make a couple of points.
    1.) The Rhetoric in the times of Luther was nothing like the PC formats of today where you cannot say anything that might hurt someone’s feelings.
    2.) Go back and read Luther’s writings about the jews, in light of what he also wrote about the papists and the Turks.
    3.) Luther was 300 years before the Victoroan era of polite living.
    4.) Read early Luther and his support for the Jews.

    People try to make Luther’s writings out as anti semitic – but no one to date has shown in anything written in the next 400 yrs that accused Luther of being such – not one such writing, because everyone understood Luther in his context.

    It wasn’t until Hitler dragged Luther’s wrtings out to support his cause that Luther go tied to anti semitism… but perhaps some use Hitler as their historical benchmark.

  118. Doug – “Of course all should recognize Gene’s MO/point here. He comes and complains about how Alex is dominating PP with his agenda all the while trying to make his point by doing here exactly what he condemns Alex for there”

    Yes I saw that too. It seems about 75% of the posts are MLD. And Alex doesn’t care, because it’s silly to care. If a person doesn’t want to read a post, then scroll to the next one that talks about what you want to talk about. But over at PP, they do care, because it’s a very fragile environment, it falls like a house of cards when anyone says something not in the Groupthink, so it has to be totally controlled. Just like CC.

  119. Yikes,
    I don’t answer anyone who will not use their real name – what are you hiding behind?

  120. But, you just answered me already. Even though I didn’t ask you a question 🙂

  121. Doug,
    You are correct about my presence here. I am going to show people here what Alex does on the PP – he dominates the board making 10 non sensical comments to every one comment made by others.

    I am not hiding this – I said above that I was the other side of Alex.

  122. Yikes is a coward who hides behind a moniker – his is worse than all abusive CC pastors. He needs to be tossed into jail for such actions.

  123. “But MLD’s catholic-based lutheran beliefs ”

    ‘catholic’ just speaks about THE universal truth – so what’s your bitch here??

  124. Yes, please toss me in blog jail!

    I have committed the greatest transgression of CC and PP! I am not going along with the Groupthink.

  125. R – O – M – A – N catholic. After all, they said you’re not a true church:


    They don’t define catholic the way you do. For them, catholic means them. And your beliefs on end times came from them, as did the anti-semitism.

  126. Yikes,
    Ouch, that really hurt – guilt by association.

    Good, you follow them, you let them define the words for you – I don’t.

    So let’s see, the ROMAN CATHOLICS say my church isn’t a real church and that’s a bad thing??? But I’ll bet the RCC fines your church to be in perfect step with them – so who here is the friend of the RCC ??? YIKES! I think it is you.

    RCC and American Evangelicalism are both the same religion – they just won’t admit it.

  127. YIKES, taalk about anti semites – it’s not me and Lutherans who want to gather the JEWS into the valley in Israel and exterminate them so that Jesus will return.

    You don’t think that is anti senitic??? You Jew killer!!!

  128. My church is just a local Bible church. Hated by catholics and lutherans.

    I agree that Calvary Chapel is the RCC style. Calvary Chapel now has its local bishops overlooking regions.

    You wouldn’t waste your time giving my church the time of day. We don’t have the “glorious” political history of the RCC, the lutherans, or even CC for that matter.

  129. I’m not going to gather any Jewish people into murderous conditions. The replacement theology folks will help the antichrist do that.

    Hmmm, where does lutheranism fall in that doctrinal point?

  130. Replacement theology? LOL. You guys have replaced Jesus Christ with Israel.

    Jesus said in Luke 24 that the whole of scripture was about him – that all the prophecies were about him. But so called bible churches have taken Jesus out of the end times and replaced him with the nation Israel.

    “Bible” churches are the replacement theology holders. So why do you want to gather the Jews together in the valley – if not to kill them?

  131. So according to MLD, the OT says that Jesus will be regathered into the land of Israel in the last days, instead of the Jewish people being regathered into Israel. Okay, now I understand lutheranism. Wow. That’s some Bible teaching there.

    The Bible states what will happen. The antichrist will slaughter Jewish people. That isn’t me doing it. That’s the antichrist and his followers doing it, and replacement theology people will help the antichrist.

  132. Yikes reads Joel Rosenberg and not the Bible.

    Show me a passage that says Israel will come back to the land that was NOT speaking about the return from captivity. The return to the land after the captivity was described by the prophets in heavenly / kingdom language.

    And them bones? same thing, the Jewish people will rise and live again someday when the captivity ends.

  133. Gene…this is all your fault

    JTA – The sale of the Cleveland Browns ends 51 years of Jewish ownership of the National Football League team.

    The sale of the team to a group headed by truck-stop magnate Jimmy Haslam III was confirmed by the NFL Network on Thursday, according to the Cleveland Jewish News. The deal reportedly is worth more than $1 billion…

    My sources tell me that Haslam is an anti-Semite Lutheran that didn’t want Jews to have the ball. So much for my joke that a Jewish boy knows its time to be bar mitzvah’ed when he realizes that it’s more likely he will own an NFL team than play on one.

  134. And what the hell is a ‘bible’ church? It so reeks of pride – as if you don’t go to a ‘bible’ church, you must be going to a non bible church or an anti bible church.

    Do you guys buy your guns from Alex?

  135. So the return from captivity was the “last days”? I guess we’re now in the really last last last “last days”.

    Never read a Joel Rosenberg book in my life.

    The replacement theology position is untenable. It’s also roman catholic in history. You are teaching “reformed catholicism”. You aren’t teaching the Bible.

  136. I bought my water gun from Luther Vandross’ Disciple

  137. all,
    aside from the rabbit trail of anti-semitism and ‘false church’ talk… back to the point of alex’s article, huh?

    As i understand it, alex’s purpose in the article and the effort to expose after having taken the all the steps appropriate yet being rebuffed and rebuked privately and publicly is…

    Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

    Jesus said to warn the church and to turn out the offenders… as unbelievers. Truth matters because people get hurt and turning the other way to allow the offenders to continue hurting others is the same as agreeing with the offenders. To do nothing may be easier and more ‘peaceful’ for all, but it ensures that the pain and abuse continues. And to combat those who are trying to demand justice or expose this stuff is tantamount to the same. This is just how I see it.

  138. Yikes,
    You make the mistake of all dispies make – yopu never tie those passages to the last days.

    I will give you an example – in Ezekiel where they talk about “them bones” rising again – where does it say that it is in the last days – and not the prophet Ezeliel giving hope to the Jews of his day, in captivity that they will rise again back in the land. Show me how you make the leap to 2,700 years later? You can’t unless you are reading the Bible with one hand and Missler with the other – oh! in that case you don’t even need the bible.

  139. MIC, Mt. 18:17 means nothing if the pastor is the offender and he is defended by the network. Especially when the network gets more organized. That’s why they do nothing.

  140. MiC,
    We don’t get to go back to the topic of the article Alex wrote. In the style Alex uses on the PP, no matter what the topic of the article, Alex turns it into “hate CC fest” – so that’s what I do here – no matter what the article, I will dominate the thread and bring up my points – today “why American Evangelicals” are anti semitic.

    OK, got it?

  141. MiC,
    Tell YIKES he has to use his real name, like you told me yesterday – don’t be two faced.

  142. I guess the fact that Israel exists again, and the majority of Jewish people around the world already have returned there, and for the first time in recent history, there are more Jewish people in Israel compared to outside of it…. all of that means nothing. It’s just a coincidence! No wait, it’s a conspiracy! Those pesky Zionists!

    I don’t listen to Missler, after all, I’m not “Chuck Missler’s Disciple”.

    But you are “Martin Luther’s Disciple”, and in that case you don’t even need the Bible.

  143. Look MIC

    John S. is and was, at best, a lower to mid level person at TWFT. He doesn’t even recognize that a separate corp holds the rights to the IP as opposed to the CCCM dba. His knowledge of facts are 2nd hand or worse, so Matthew 18 is out of question.

    He is a nice guy as Alex sez but maybe he should inquire further rather than protecting his job and a@@. give me a break…knows the Smith family! Guess designing Charlo’s cd cover gets u that status. Come on. He likely does know Darth Vader, the Darrell Mansfield lookalike that slandered me..the putz.

  144. As far as Gino hijacking this thread and blog, let him have at it. It might take quite a while since we should never underestimate the vengefulness of a Lutheran Jew scorned

  145. Gene,
    wow, just wow.
    why again are you trying to be the ‘other side of alex’? never got the answer for your motivation. alex’s motivation is to confront the Ostriches in the CC system and expose the hypocrisy and corruption. Yours from what i can see is just to follow alex back to his own blog and intentionally harrass him for … what reason? as one who is not CC and as you say having very different theology and practice (even to the point of saying CC is RCC lite), what is your motivation again for harrassing alex and those who agree with him on his own blog? are you just trying to prove a point? ar ‘teach him a lesson’?
    what would the point be?
    what is the lesson you’d like to ‘teach’ him and us? i’m listening.

  146. LOL – Again, an incorrect statement – there are more Jews living in NYC than in the whole country of Israel.

    Most Jews don’t want to go back – they don’t want to have to do the sacrifices all over again. I still don’t understand why evangelicals want to go to Isrel to rebuild the temple and force Jews to do the sacrifices (I know, the red heffer has been found)

    Again, another example of replacing Jesus, the final sacrifice with Israel and strting up the sacrifices again.

  147. lvd,
    darth vader? sorry, missed that one. nice to met you by the way.

  148. MiC,
    My only intention is to show you guys what a blog bully (Alex) looks like. My cause, to expose you guys as Jew haters is just as just as Alex’s cause when he goes to the PP.

    Truth does not matter – just what I say truth is.

    Go back to what you were talking about – I will let you know when you are wrong… which is why I have to post so much. 🙂

  149. You are incorrect. The number of Jews tipped to be more in Israel than New York.

    I don’t want to rebuild the temple. I don’t want any sacrifices done. You seem to apply things to me that I don’t believe. That’s very ignorant of you. I refuse the move to rebuild the temple and do any sacrifices.

    The temple will be rebuilt, but not by me and not wanted by me. It’s a statement of fact, Biblically, that it will happen. It will be, and the antichrist will co-opt it for his own purposes. And the replacement theology people will help. You’re already supporting the slaughter of Jewish people, just like Luther hated Jewish people with a passion.

  150. If someone posted the hate-filled angry unchristian statements of Luther, it would rightly be removed from the blog.

    Now why would someone be “Martin Luther’s Disciple”???

  151. lvd,
    and the matt 18 reference wasn’t necessarily or even specifically to john shaffer but to the the many BG-like pastors in the CC system (i’ve served with a couple in the past) and to CS and others who defend, cover and bully for them.

  152. Gene
    “My only intention is to show you guys what a blog bully (Alex) looks like. My cause, to expose you guys as Jew haters is just as just as Alex’s cause when he goes to the PP.”

    soooo… your purpose is to ‘defend’ the PP community from alex (who doesn’t post there anymore after banning) and to ‘punish’ him on his own blog for your perception of his ‘offenses’ there…. how tolerant and loving of you. you ever heard the terms ‘stalking’ or ‘passive agressive’? if that’s your motive, you should ‘just let it go and get a life’ like CS told alex. only you don’t really have any substance to your case against alex. he does against BG and CC.

  153. The “restructure” plan of CC looks like corporate America.

    Jeremiah 2:12-13

  154. MIC

    Look. You Gentiles absolutely do not understand the mind of a Jew…a Lutheran at that. Let him have his way. He is only here to provoke. His last meaningful theological discussion took place in Hebrew school and he likely never attended one and if he did, it was reformed with a banjo playing rabbi.

  155. Hannah – “The “restructure” plan of CC looks like corporate America”

    Yes. With a CEO, District Presidents, and a framework owned by those in power.

    Everything they spoke against in the Distinctives, they became.

  156. Yikes,

    Where is God in all this?

    You need to address the root that is producing the bad fruit. (Just heard that today)

  157. I keep hearing some (offline) defending guys like Steve Wright, John Shaffer, Jeff Jones etc etc who are so-called “good guys” by asking what I expect them to do? Lose their jobs or livelihood, etc? What good would that accomplish? etc etc.

    I counted the costs. I lost a mom, a family, a support system, lots of friends, my comfort zone etc etc over saying enough is enough and doing the right thing. As I state in the article, men of conviction aren’t willing to do that, I get it. Now if it affects them personally, they are more inclined to do something…but these guys won’t even call a spade a spade publicly.

    They’ll come out against me, but they call Chuck Smith “a man of integrity” etc when he clearly lied to me and many others recently and is not a man of integrity in the least as exampled by the Bob Grenier situation.

  158. MLD,

    This is great fun. You are whipping their philosophical b*tts. I guess in a battle of wits, these guys are unarmed.

    Keep up the good works. 🙂

  159. Alex,

    The fear of man is greater than the fear of God.

  160. lvd,
    thanks for the advise and tip. for the record, i don’t ‘hate jews’ as he said. and i don’t necessarily agree with the whole pre-trib, modern israel is Israel ‘regathered’ eschatology. I’m a huge believer in the ‘one new man’, the Church created in Christ Jesus as Paul taught in eph 2:14-16.

    i’m not a big lover of the idea of dividing the church (jewish/gentile) or seeing others in terms of ‘race’. acts 17:26. all this ‘jew hater’ talk in the Body of Christ serves the Adversary’s ends more than those of Jesus. Jesus is about the ‘all men everywhere’ acts 17:30 and the ‘whosoever will’ john 3:16 and He’s the savior of the world 1 tim 2:4-6 and 1 john 4:14.
    i’m simple enough to still think it’s all about Jesus.

  161. Alex,

    For the bad things that have happened to you I am truly sorry. I’m with MLD on that one. I agree with your cause 100%. Your tactics are not something I can agree with. Your hurt and anger are righteous, but I don’t see how your tactics will result in any kind of positive result to you or those you attack.

    I am not your enemy and I only wish the best for you. I am very sad thinking about what this has cost you and I pray you will focus on the positive things in your life such as your wife and lovely family. Don’t let this destroy you.

    Fight as you must, but please protect yourself. That is my prayer. Love to you brother.

  162. Hannah – “Where is God in all this? You need to address the root that is producing the bad fruit. (Just heard that today)”

    The root is the belief they hold, that they are in a position that is above the people, sort of like Moses being above the people.

    It’s a false teaching because Moses was a picture of Jesus (Deuteronomy 18:18). No pastor is Jesus. Therefore no pastor is Moses. A pastor is a pastor.

    They would have no power, except that some go along with this. That’s how any group gets authority, it is given to them by adherents.

  163. bug on my shoe…
    what great ‘philosophical’ points has mld (gene) made that you think are kicking our A**es? be specific. i’d like to know.
    as to the ‘context’ of your comment, i ask you as i asked gene, is this really just a game, a debate, a ‘philosophical exercise’ for you? do you even care past the ‘entertainment value’? and what does it say about you that you are entertained by the pain and suffering, corruption and deceit, and the outright abuse from within a ‘church’ that is supposed to be serving, loving, and fighting ‘for’ the people of God not fighting against them?
    …kicking our ‘philosophical a**es’? you should really examine your heart with this statement.

  164. MiC,

    I was just funnin’ with you. Guess I forgot the smiley face. No personal disrespect intended. You’ve got to admit that MLD can really give it out in a debate. I suspect he’s just funnin’ too.

    I take my faith very seriously, as I think most of the contributors here do too. And I would never make fun of Alex and what he has suffered. But I always think Alex has a good sense of humor too.

    So it was just in fun.

    But the answer to your question about it being a game, I’ll be very honest. Yes is is a game … often. I’m not belittling anyone’s faith. That is a very serious matter.

    But all these postings on the Internet … if you don’t have a little light heart and happy spirit (which is what Jesus told us faith in him would be … His yoke is not heavy) then there is no joy in life.

    I’m just enjoying the day the the Lord created. Don’t take it personal. I don’t think MLD does.

    Have a nice day. I’m going to go examine my heart. 🙂

  165. MLD/Gene is a philosophical lightweight. False Analogy times 95 theses.

  166. MLD’s debate skills are based on hypocricy. He calls others followers of this guy and that, but his name is “Martin Luther’s Disciple”. He labels them with beliefs that they don’t hold. He’s about the poorest debater I’ve seen in a long time.

    One thing that is true, this is lighthearted, at least from my side. But the same can’t be said for PP. They are hypersensitive on pretty much everything, and when the content gets too deep, they are terrified.

  167. LOL, worse than the usual end times conspiracy theories is this new one – that a graphic artist holed up in a large religious corporation is the cause of all things evil in CC. A guy who draws cartoons for children’s books is the reason that as the title asks “Why things don’t change for the better.”

    Children continue to be in harm’s way, children are open to molestation in the CC system because of a graphic artist.

    You guys are insane – is that the best you got… come on, a graphic artist is to blame????

  168. Hey, having a little fun and being sarcastic and poking fun is fair game IMO.

  169. fly..
    thanks for the explanation. and i agree with you. i know i can definitely take things too serious and sometimes myself. thanks again. i think i understand you better. i may have jumped to an unwarrented conclusion. i ask for your forgiveness.

  170. Reading the acid in the last comment from MLD, I don’t believe that his intents are lighthearted. He’s going for blood.

    Just like Luther did 😉

    Those who we follow, we become. If you follow CS, you will take on his views. If you follow ML, you will take on his views.

    If you follow Jesus, you will take on His views.

  171. MiC,

    Here’s a little story to try to make my point better. I’m great friends with my pastor. We both have a background in music and are the same age and are really personal friends beyond our relationship at church.

    One day we were at a coffee shop and a coworker of mine saw us and came by to say hi. I introduced him to my pastor as “My Friends *****.” My co-worker asked my pastor what he did. (Employment.) He said he was a pastor. My co-worker said that he didn’t think very much of religion. My pastor replied that “neither did he.”

    I don’t think it is about “religion.” It’s about faith and a relationship with the Lord. Of course the Bible has to be the guide otherwise we’re just worshiping the great spaghetti monster, but I find most of the theological wrangling just the confusion of men (and women) trying to get their faith right with Christ.

    My faith is a simple faith and I don’t make a lot of distinctions. I actually do as you suggest … examine the heart.

    So, no game, seriously, enjoy this day the the Lord has created. Be well.

  172. I do agree with Yikes that there are many Drama Queens at the PP who are extremely thin-skinned and shouldn’t poke the bear if they don’t at least have some bear spray or maybe a .44 magnum.

  173. thanks again alex for allowing the conversation and providing a forum.

  174. And what you said is true:

    If you follow Jesus, you will take on His views.

  175. alex
    by the way, it’s all ‘cumbaya’ and ‘hate on alex’ over at the PP. they’ve been throwing around the idea of ‘suing’ for copying and reposting blog comments without the commenter’s permission. of course, they say, they’d never actually ‘do it’ due to not going to court with another believer (but i know several ‘christians’ who found a way to justify around it anyway)
    how afraid are they of being accountable for their words and their real names? to sue for copyright infringment on a ‘blog comment’? wow. just wow, the level of control and meglomania some people have learned from the ‘moses model’ of leadership. just sayin’

  176. oh, fly… you read my blog? i’m honored. and appreciative.

  177. Headline, Alex says that a little graphic artist has caused all the problems in Calvary Chapel… nothing will change in the system until the graphic artist changes… more news to follow.

  178. gene,
    that’s not what he said and you know it. it’s always easier to ‘kick’ people’s butts when you consistantly erect a false straw man to knock down. easier, but not completely honest.

  179. Actually I think he said the graphic artist “illustrates” the problem. Quite a (intentional?) pun.

  180. The Great Debater shall not be questioned, even for one straw man after another 🙂

  181. …but then again, honesty isn’t the point. the point you said was to follow him to his own blog and ‘show’ us what alex does and to punish him for his actions (straw men perception) on the PP. as long as we can see thru the paper thin veneer of your motivation, it’s all good. not christlike or spirit led, but it’s all good… for you.

  182. Correction – graphic artist down in the basement of huge religious corporation ‘symbolizes’ all things evil at Calvary Chapel.

    If you want to know what evil looks like, find the graphic artist.

  183. Hannah @ 153 The “restructure” plan of CC looks like corporate America.

    I think you are one of the wisest on this blog. Where is all this bad fruit coming from?
    Jeremiah 23

  184. W.W.J.W.F?

    who would Jesus work for? would Jesus continue working for a church/pastor/church system that is designed to exalt one man to unquestioned and infallible ‘moses’ status? that sets the stage for and refuses to hold men accountable for abuse of the flock of God? That when confronted with evidence and undeniable experience of abuse, corruption and financial impropriety instead of dealing with it and removing the cancer, even if that means personal responsibility, chooses to attack and malign the ‘victim’ and treat him as the ‘abuser’? would Jesus work there?
    then, why would we?

  185. Here they go again. Where’s my popcorn.

  186. Trying to endanger a man’s job, livelihood and security of his family should be totally off base here.

    Let me tell you why, one time when Alex became extremely unhinged on the PP, I said that since he had access to a massive amount of weapons I was going to report to the Idaho authorities his state of mental health.

    Alex went ballistic and threaten to sue me – why? Because that was a threat to his business license and the security of his family.

    It’s about time to drop this.

  187. moses was one man over the nation of israel, he was ‘still’ accountable and able to be ‘fired’ see duet 34:4,5
    Jesus is the head of the Church, not a ‘moses’ modled ‘protestant priesthood’
    Pastors, teachers, elders, deacons and others are servants under, not masters over the Body of Christ.
    Jesus said this…”It shall not be so among you” see luke 22:25-27

    how many of us have seen ‘leaders’ and shepherds in churches, CC or otherwise, ‘feeding themselves’ on the flock of God? exercising control and absolute authority over the ‘business’ of the church. how long will we remain servants of the pastor or the church and not servants and disciples of Jesus Christ?


  188. MIC – “would Jesus work there?”

    The answer is yes.

    He’s already working there every time they quote Scripture correctly (Philippians 1:15).

    The Lord Jesus will use, I believe, what is put out there, if it is the right teaching of what His Word is really saying.

    Of course, there are many times I believe that CC is not teaching His Word correctly, so those times are only confusing people. The Moses model teaching is just one example, and that wrong teaching has led to tons of abused people. If that one false teaching were corrected, many would have avoided much abuse. There will always be abuse somewhere, as there are always abusers out there. But a false doctrine becomes an enabler.

  189. gene,
    would you agree as hannah has said that the ‘moses model’ is what leads to this mess?

  190. yikes
    thanks for the response and i agree in the ‘spiritual’ sense, whereever His children are, there He ‘is’ also. but i was really meaning the question more ‘personally’
    if Jesus were physically/personally here on the earth, would He choose to continue to work where there is such corruption and abuse of His people?
    that’s more along what i meant. and i guess it was a bit more ‘rhetorical’ because i don’t think He would. he would want to do what He could to correct He told the disciples to do.
    but thanks again for the reply.

  191. MIC – “if Jesus were physically/personally here on the earth, would He choose to continue to work where there is such corruption and abuse of His people?”

    In the physical sense? Jesus would have sooner or later gently said something to correct them, and then either saw them decide to be corrected, or otherwise, Jesus would have got Himself thrown out of the place.

  192. MiC,
    I would tend to think that sin and sinful people lead to this mess. I do not like to redirect blame for crimes.

    As I said the other day, when CS or the Moses model becomes the focus, then it is not Bob Gs fault. Just as in the end, it will not be the Colorado shooter’s fault, because people will bring up “oh, if person X had taken action Y 3 yrs ago, this would not have happened – but because the system is set up this way, it is the system’s fault not the shooters.

    Place blame where it belongs.

    But then again, I am in a congregation voting church and we hire the pastor.

  193. The blame belongs placed on the false doctrine that enables an abuser to continue abusing unabated, just as much on the abuser himself.

  194. and gene,
    no one… not even alex is trying to get anyone fired or destroy their lives and neither am I. you’re missing the point. he’s trying to call for decisions and actions based on integrity. only john or whoever has the ability to make those changes or decisions for him and his family. alex is just shining a light on the hypocrisy and advocating for integrity.
    this stuff is disturbing. it should be.

  195. As I sit here and read the many comments by TheAbuser’s Bizarro I am saddened to the point that I must leave this blog. Never to return. Never again. Not ever………

    I might lurk. Maybe I’ll share a word of wisdom from time to time. But no..I must never allow someone like TheAbuser’s Bizzaro to bully me around like this. Arrrrrrrg, the humanity.

    But wait, why should I go away, if what I right is truth then what do I have to fear from someone cutting and pasting it. I would have nothing to fear. Maybe someone could even takes those cop pied thoughts and debate or respond to them somewhere else, oh wait, that already exists in Twitter and Facebook. Holy crap, they better watch watch it, they are breaking the law.

    I think I will makes some calls about that. Because that actually effects me. Thats what I learned from CC, IF IT’S NOT MY PROBLEM IT’S NOT A PROBLEM….but when it effects me then I’ll rally everyone around me to raise their pitchforks in solidarity. I won’t stand for anything unless I have to stand for protection of my lies and coverups! But I am a good guy remember. Everyone says so. All 12 of them.

  196. yikes, (con permisso)
    “…then either saw them decide to be corrected, or otherwise, Jesus would have got Himself thrown out of the place.”

    but would He get banned from PP? that’s the next question….

  197. MLD,

    I agree with you that people’s sin leads to this mess. I would take it one step farther though that this sin is what created the Moses Model which allows more sin to flourish in a tangible way.

  198. not alone…

    now that was good comedy

  199. So here I am, I’m leaving, never to be heard from again. I have been bullied and driven off.

  200. Well when I said I was going to call the authorities about Alex’s erratic behavior a couple of yrs ago, I wasn’t trying to get his business closed down either – I was trying to get Alex the mental help he needed and to protect the society around him if he went off the deep end with his arsenal.

    I had Alex’s good, not harm in mind… and he threatened a lawsuit.

    See, no different than what you are doing with John.

  201. MIC – “but would He get banned from PP? that’s the next question….”

    I believe that if Jesus were physically posting on PP, reading what He saw there, He’d see the ecumenicalism and myriad of conflicting doctrines, and He would seek to lovingly and gently correct that which was in error.

    And then He’d get banned.

  202. Andrew,
    So you are like the rest – blame the system and NOT Bob G.

    So, Bob is just a creation of the system? You say he brainwashes, perhaps he is the innocent victim of brainwashing himself – and not guilty of anything.

  203. I blame the system and Bob G.

  204. And then I blame myself for all my sins, errors, and faults 🙂

  205. andrew
    i agree. the moses model is a ‘cudgel’ made for the heart of man bent toward self exaltation and controlling others.
    Policeman says over the megaphone: “pastor, put the cudgel down and step away from the pulpit”
    but what we mostly hear is “.. move along, nothing to see here”

  206. I have not returned but I must say that I am not happy with MLD AKA TheAbuser’s Bizzaro. But that’s it… I’m outa here, big time this time!

  207. yikes…
    “And then He’d get banned.”
    i guess i’m in good company then…

  208. Not Alone, LOL!

    Wait, isn’t someone going to shut down the blog?

  209. MLD, I blame sinners including myself. No one gets off the hook. Oh I forgot accept in Calvary Chapel with the Moses Model system with no accountability of the senior pastor. Just saying..

  210. I’m all for shining the light squarely on BG. No problems with that.

    Dang it! I’m not here. You here me. I have left the building. Tail lights.

  211. MIC, you are in good company. I left PP in a storm of anger and swearing from Michael. I don’t blame him at all. I’m a piece of work.


  212. curious thought here that you’re not really supposed to ask out loud…

    not one person here is calling for gene’s expulsion or threatening to close down the blog (in order to elicit emotional support for an insecure ego ‘after the fact’ of alex’s banning)

    how insecure do you have to be to still be bashing on a guy and blaming him for ‘forcing you’ to possibly close down ‘your own blog’ **after you banned him**?

    me thinks some people still have too much ‘moses model’ in them from their brief CC history.

  213. Gene is too fun to ban. And yes, it is hypersensitivity that would cause a person to want to destroy their own blog because someone was posting there which no longer does.

    That sounds like a person that doesn’t 100% want the blog anyway.

  214. “That sounds like a person that doesn’t 100% want the blog anyway.”

    …but doesnt have the courage or the honesty to end it himself? so he needs a scape goat, someone he can blame for the demise… how traggic, how horrible, that mean, mean alex… how pathetic

  215. Why things don’t change for the better:?

    I’m hearing that’s Alex’s fault. Some guys were going to change something when they were met by Alex and stopped. I guess those guys were only doing it for Alex. Not because it was right and they had the power to make change.

    So Alex is all bad for the things he writes and AV is all good for the things he writes but who is standing up for what. It’s pretty clear what Alex is standing for. All of us, his brother, his mother and the many across the world who have dealt with their own BG from CC. But AV, AB and the other CC guys are just defending themselves and each other. Like TheAbuser’s Bizzaro insinuated, they are only protecting their jobs. Isn’t that all it is at this point. BG was going to be defrocked and Pappa Pope stopped it. So what good are these other good guys? Not good at all when their only teeth are for those who piss them off.

  216. Yikes,
    “I believe that if Jesus were physically posting on PP, reading what He saw there, He’d see the ecumenicalism and myriad of conflicting doctrines,”

    So you affirm the belief I had about this place. It is NOT open for people who do not hold the same doctrines as held be you guys.

    Are you really saying that you all hold to the same doctrines (as if you share the same brain cell) and varying views are not welcome? I think that is called Westboro.

  217. MLD, the issue is focus. This blog and PP are two different places. This blog really just has one goal, that is, to expose issues within CC that need correcting.

    PP started that way, but became sort of a collection of people discussing lots of different topics, some that don’t involve CC at all. This blog here hasn’t really done that. Since PP has taken on tons of topics, including doctrine, then its nature is different.

    What exists at PP is a forced ecumenicalism that will shun anyone that doesn’t fit that mold. It’s actually far more closed-off than this blog.

    The comparison to Westboro for either blog, is sheer stupidity. A closer comparison exists between the anti-semitism of Luther and others that hate the Jewish people.

  218. you know, when i was CC, i used to bristle at my friend steve who was Assy of God when he called CCCM “Calvary Chapel Costa Mecca” or call CS the Pope of southern california.
    we used to be proud here in the phoenix area when we said we were “Calvary Chapel Close-to-Mesa”. when a couple of us visited CCCM in the 90’s, i even shared that joke with Papa Chuck himself. He smiled politely.
    but, i can’t be so nostalgic today… i’ve seen too much and been on the receiving end of the ‘left foot of fellowship’ too often.
    the moses model, CC’s version or in any other church, is just too destructive and it ‘creates’, facilitates, and fiercely defends the kind of monsters who have no ‘heavenly’ business in ministry.

  219. MiC,
    It sounds like pastor chuck wasn’t up on a pedestal until you put him there.

  220. Chuck is Moses. He put himself on the pedestal.

  221. gene
    again with the turning it around on me as an attack? really? that’s not at all ‘friendly’ or gracious, is it?

  222. gene
    the system puts the SP on a pedastal and CS is Senior SP. just like a lot of church systems, like for instance …martin luther..

  223. MiC,
    You said , ” i even shared that joke with Papa Chuck himself. He smiled politely.”

    It sounds like Chuck was uncomfortable with your comments – that he did not like that kind of recognition. So he “smiled politely”… and then you picked him up and put him on the pedestal.

  224. you may want to read 1 cor 1:12,13 and reconsider your choice of moniker if you want to talk about me being responsible for lifting chuck up. just sayin’

  225. Just so everyone know, the Lutheran and Luther insults do not phase me. It just shows that you have no basis of discussion so you throw out the ad hominids.

    But that’s OK, the pope, the papists and the King didn’t like Luther either.

  226. When MIC calls himself “Chuck Smith’s Disciple”, then we can say that he was putting Chuck Smith on a pedestal.

    Until then, the words of “Martin Luther’s Disciple” are just instigation and hypocricy.

  227. ouch!!!
    An attack on my moniker and not my statements.

  228. Your statements are hypocricy, straw men, ad hominem, and your whole basis for doing this, by your own admission, is to be an instigator.

    That’s okay, we all have a sinful flesh that shows itself sometimes. You were commenting on the difference between blogs? On PP, you’d be tossed out for rejecting the Groupthink.

  229. Wow, comparing Chuck Smith to Martin Luther. I’m not that much of a historian but did Martin Luther have a vision like Chuck Smith did? After all Calvary Chapel was started after Chuck Smith received a VISION. Now that Chuck is getting ready to pass on, he appears to be seeking fresh VISIONs from the regional pastors he set in place? Does anyone know what Chuck really means by VISION and whether this is really extra biblical revelation and prophecy or is it something completely different?

  230. But this is not true – I have gone toe to toe with most people there over doctrinal difference; infant baptism, the real presence of Jesus in the Supper and the amil view of end times.

    None of you have ever left your original CC beliefs… you just don’t like the guy who taught them to you.

  231. MLD, I am more of a Lutheran than I am a CCite in regards to theology so hopefully you can realize that Alex has a broader viewership than you realize.

  232. I was never online with a lot of CC beliefs. They teach losing salvation, and I don’t believe you can lose it. That’s right at the core of the Gospel, can’t get more fundamental than that.

    PP has such a collection of beliefs that contradict, but if you take a stand that one is clearly wrong, you will get tossed.

    I know.

  233. brother gene,
    for the record again, because you tried to do this earlier regarding ‘hating jews’, i neither hate you, lutherans, martinluther himself, calvinists, baby chickens, brocoli, kittens (although i kinda hate cats) or any other person i may disagree with.
    hate is such a strong, strong word that should only be brandished and bandied about in extreme cases and should be reserved for ideas and moral evil… and not for people. jesus taught us to love people, and not hate them in our hearts because he called it the same as ‘murder’
    i do not hate luther or lutherans… i respect and admire his contributions to the move away from the RCC and the oppressive system that it represented at the time.
    if you are going to characterize my remarks, at least have the clarity and integrity not to ‘straw man’ and misconstrue them into what i did not say. and STOP with the attacks that i ‘hate’ anybody or groups of people. bellicose is not your color and you don’t wear it well at all.

  234. gene

    and as far as what i believe still being tied to CC, yes you tried this yesterday too, you have no idea what my theology is and how far i have departed from CC/FourSquare theology.
    i have actually made many changes since my CC days, but not necessarily ‘because’ of my leaving, or to spite CC. but just in the process of learning, studying and growing in the knowledge of God and His Word. i assume you could say the same and give you credit for not being an automaton of the Synod you belong too.
    here’s to freedom and honest inquiry and exchange

  235. MIC – “here’s to freedom and honest inquiry and exchange”

    Which you won’t find at PP, if you take a strong stand on something and insist that the other position(s) is/are wrong.

    Free exchange on PP is you ecumenically agreeing that multiple views are to be tolerated as acceptable, even regarding the Gospel itself.

  236. Yikes,
    “PP has such a collection of beliefs that contradict, but if you take a stand that one is clearly wrong, you will get tossed.”

    I take that stand all the time and I don’t get tossed. I think that people who reject infant baptism are wrong. I think that people who do not take Jesus at his word “this IS my body, this IS my blood” take the Lord’s Supper to their own harm. and I do believe that those who do not hold to an Amil view of last days events are wrong – I have not been tossed from PP for my strong views.

  237. MLD, I guess you’re special. Kudos to you, friend.

    I did get tossed for insisting that adding any works to salvation is tantamount to annihilating salvation.

  238. I think Luther was an interesting dude. He’s kind of like Chuck Smith in the sense that he was quite a sinner too…but at least Luther, unlike Chuck Smith, seemed to be a man of deep conviction and would take a strong stand for what he believed in.

    Chuck Smith is easily swayed by sychophants close to him…like David Rosales and others…especially when someone doesn’t kiss the ring and bow down to him.

    My biggest beefs with Chuck are his lying about having no responsibility and control of the CC Movement, yet clearly he does as evidenced by the email he sent all the CCSP’s System-wide, telling them “the changes he has made” with regard to setting up a New CC.

    Chuck is lying recent b/c he was scared of lawsuit. Martin Luther would’ve stood on conviction (I think) and not let fear and sychophants determine his decision-making.

    Chuck Smith, you sir are no Martin Luther…but I have been told Chuck doesn’t like the Blacks so much…so he is kind of like Luther in one sense, only Luther didn’t like the Jews.

  239. … and i got tossed for suggesting that theistic determination is unbiblical and dangerous and for saying that double election (or double predestination) was a logical consequence of calvinistic unconditional and irresistable grace/divine election.

    we all have sacred cattle ‘mowing’ our front yard

  240. My other big beefs with Chuck Smith are his seeing first-hand the testimonies of so many long-time CC’ers who were attracted to Calvary Chapel Visalia largely due to Chuck’s reputation and Brand.

    Chuck saw the carnage first-hand in testimony after testimony after testimony…and me and one of my brothers in person etc.

    So many others have reported how they’ve written Chuck and CCOF over the years asking for help with “Problems” that Chuck now admits were part of what CCOF was in the business of (and Chuck is President of CCOF per IRS Docs).

    Chuck Smith could give a flying chuck.

    There really seems to be nothing that rises to the level of “problem” for Chuck and CC to deal with when so much has gone ignored and even intentionally Stone Walled.

    It’s evil. It’s wrong etc etc. Shame on Chuck Smith. It sends a loud and clear message to the CCSP’s: “I’ve got your back as long as your LOYAL to me and the Brand”.

    That’s not righteous, that’s Mafia.

  241. MIC, so you touched on the calvinist sacred cow, and I touched on the orthodox/catholic/lutheran/protestant sacred cow.

    And since the majority of individuals there fall in one of those camps…

  242. gene,
    for my ‘trouble’ i got called all kinds of names, told by 3 different posters that i wasn’t serving the true God and was guilty of idolatry if i didn’t knuckle under and ‘apologize’ for expressing a different opinion than the blog master.
    i wouldn’t apologize, so i got kicked. PP tolerance in action.

    so, they bounced you too once and later let you back in? what did you have to renounce to regain their favor?

  243. “I think some protests would be great…and like Martin Luther, maybe a list of reforms nailed to the Costa Mesa door.”

    hey I protested Montebello Calvary Chapel two months ago and I was confronted by some of the assistant Pastors and they ran off after they knew we weren’t backing down. Pncho even face booked about it.

  244. And, yet another beef is that Chuck Smith is essentially lying to the public by covering up what has been reported to me by insiders that he went to the CCCM Board many years ago and wanted to leave his wife for another women. They talked him off the ledge, but that is a serious sin and disqualifying and folks who have given so much money over the years should’ve been informed about that issue.

    Chuck touts, “Vote with your feet!” as the only recourse in CC. How can one cast an informed and honest vote if Chuck lies and covers up all the bad stuff?

    Many wouldn’t have given money to him had they known the truth about that issue and many other issues in CC.

    Very convenient for CC to only publicly promote their version and spin of all the “good fruit” when they hide and cover up all the bad fruit.

    It’s dishonest, possibly fraudulent.

  245. Good for you SolRod.

  246. alex,
    ““I’ve got your back as long as your LOYAL to me and the Brand”.

    you got it… sounds like someone else we know.

    the corallary is ” if you AREN’T loyal, then whatever I do to you is fully justified and YOUR fault… just get over it, get a life, shut up and go away”

  247. MLD/Gene does an OK job arguing his positions, but my long history with him has shown he gets caught in many contradictions b/c he cant’ seem to keep track of what he’s said in the past.

    What is hilarious is that he and Steve Wright think I keep notes on them etc…and I’ve fed that speculation some so I’m guilty of goding them a little, but the reality is I have a near photographic memory and I’m able to recall previous discussions we’ve had and I go back and find the thread I remember having the discussion on then I find their quote and copy and paste it. It’s always been an asset in school and ongoing discussions. It’ll probably come in handy in law school…and eventually in tackling church abuse and corruption from that angle.

  248. MIC yep.

    I had a chance with Chuck Smith…but I quickly discerned that “right or wrong” mostly hinged on how I played ball and kissed the ring etc and that ticked me off. It shouldn’t be that way….especially if he is truly “anointed” and some sort of special spiritual leader who is closer to God than the rest of us schmucks.

    My conclusion is that Chuck is not “anointed” and no different than any other sinner out there. He and those who suck up to him are delusional.

    if Chuck was truly anointed, he would have discerned the right thing and done the right thing. The Holy Spirit is not in him very much as evidenced by his actions on such a clear case of cut and dry right and wrong.

  249. MiC,
    It may be in the way you say it. As a Lutheran I am not a Calvinist and Michael is well aware of that. I too disagree about about the 2nd half of the U in the TULIP – state so on many occasions.

    But then, as a Lutheran, we just aren’t involved in the Calvinist / Arminian debate. That is an in house Reformed battle.

  250. …then add to the Bob Grenier situation all the other terrible stuff that keeps happening in CC, that CC leadership ignores…and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.

    If God is truly moving in Calvary Chapel, there would be a sense of Justice, a sense of the importance of the Qualifications of Pastors/Elders, a sense of church discipline to those Elders who remain in sin, etc etc.

    Chuck Smith has effectively led a huge Group of folks into cutting out significant portions of Scripture and exampling terrible leadership that validates bad CCSP’s and contributes the daze and inaction of the so-called good CCSP’s. It’s terrible leadership. Again, shame on Chuck Smith.

  251. MLD/Gene does serve as comic relief often as well. He’s like the blog’s version of Chumlee 🙂

  252. alex,

    i’m sorry to disagree (uh, oh… don’t ban me)
    i don’t find gene very intellectual, logical or rational at all. most of what he has said in the last two days is filled with inflamatory statements based on words no one really said and arguments no one has really made.
    his first response to my comments whether they are directed to him (not at him) or to someone else or to the general discussion is to turn them around as a jr high personal attack and mischaracterize them to say what i haven’t really said rather than actually deal with the substance of what i have said.
    i don’t think he’s stupid or mentally deficient, but he certainly thinks much more of himself than he displays by his comments.

    i’m sorry again for being so blunt, and i’m not trying to be intentionally hurtful and rude, but i had to get it off my chest. i hope you and gene will understand.

  253. Alex,
    I never thought you kept notes on me.

    But you did tell all the CC pastors that you were keeping notes on them and that you were going to include them in any legal matters you would bring forth.

    That was pretty chicken shit… don’t you agree?

    That was about the time I was going to call the authorities over your mental collapse on the PP.

  254. MLD, did you ever sort out your confused position on the 10 Commandments? LOL 😆

  255. MiC,
    I have answered directly every question you have asked. I have been 100% open as to why I am here (well not quite, underlying is my desire to indoctrinate you guys into proper theology).

    I can only turn your words on you because they ARE YOUR WORDS.

  256. Two separate issues.

    I collected expressions of what looked to be influence and agency by CC Mothership and was clear it wasn’t to sue individual CCSP’s but to show the dynamic of how CC works.

    You did think I kept notes on you and you articulated such, maybe in jest, but you and Steve Wright both expressed surprise one time about an old quote I pulled from month’s back and speculated that I had kept notes on you…and linked it to the separate issue above.

    And, no, it is a public forum over there and it was important to help the victims and try and tell the truth about how CC works.

  257. I think it’s chicken s*** that Chuck Smith wasn’t man enough to tell the truth about CC and CCOF until after he got off the hook in that CC Idaho Molestation lawsuit.

    …there’s your chicken and faux “anointed” man of God.

  258. Alex,
    There was no confusion. This is probably why you get stumbled by words. This is for others here because you and I have discussed this a million times. You have no understanding of context – you think everything said by someone is in the same context and you don’t see that subjects have changed and conversations have moved along (probably why you can’t understand CC conversations.)

    I can say to one person who is fretting about how to live their life or what to do and say “if you want to know how God wants you to live your life, read / follow the 10 commandments.

    I can say to a 2nd person, in a different conversation, that the 10 commandments were not given to the church.

    These statements are neither confusing nor contradictory… except to those who lack a conversational thought process.

  259. MLD, once again, you support the thesis of my ongoing challenge to you that truth is largely relative/subjective as practiced by folks in Christianity. You’re arguing for it as relative/subjective while claiming Absolute…and you don’t even realize it (once again).

    I could launch into another discourse in how Philosophical Logic works…but the fact you still are operating under the same error illustrates I would be wasting my time 🙂

  260. MLD, your appeal to “Context” is your greatest flaw in defending your Positon regarding Absolutes…and makes the argument for Relative/Subjective Truth.

  261. Let me ask you this question MLD/Gene, same question I posed to John Shaffer recently.

    Isn’t Chuck Smith lying when he states in the radio interview and from the CCCM pulpit and in the “meeting” with me, Dave Rolph, Janet Carter and one of my brothers…that “he” has no control, no responsibility etc for the Calvary Chapel Movement….

    ….and then sends out an email to all the CCSP’s around the world notifying them of “the changes he has made” to the entire Calvary Chapel Construct?

    Are you intellectually honest enough to say Chuck Smith lied?

  262. gene
    so, if i have this right, you tell one person follow the 10 commandments, but the other that they weren’t given to the church?

    was the first person a christian?
    and if the 10commandments weren’t given to the church, does that mean they are irrelevant for christians?

    my question is more with what you mean. you may understand what you meant by both of those, so you accuse alex of lack of context, but wouldn’t it be more ‘conversational’ to unpack or explain what you mean for those who don’t have the ‘decoder ring’?

  263. Absolutes apply only to somethings – there is no absolute truth about choosing the color of socks to wear today.

    There is an absolute truth that torturing babies for fun is wrong.

  264. In context (and this is what completely escapes you, the statements

    “you can come into my house” and “you cannot come into my house” are not at all contradictory … in their context if they are made to 2 separate people (my daughter for the 1st and you for the 2nd.

    Also, the 2 statements are not contradictory even if both were made to the same person – if they are made at 2 different times.

  265. or rather, why can’t you just tell ‘both’ that trying to be a good moral and upright boy, even by the 10 commandments will only frustrate the plan of God in Christ to show you that without the cross to forgive and the spirit to live all outward efforts to ‘live for God’ fail.

    i would say the gospel of jesus would be the first and best answer to a question of ‘how then shall we live’


  266. MiC,
    Give me second on that and I will get back to you – but understand, Alex and I have had this conversation before.

  267. MiC,
    WOW, You have my attention now. I just hung up on a customer to hear this one.

    So, someone asks “How should I live my life, what does God want me to do?” I say read the 10 commandments – God has laid out how he wants people to live.

    Now, MiC, I come to you and I say “MiC, I just don’t know what to do, how should I live my life, what does God want me to do?”

    Your reply to me is….

  268. alex
    if he comes back and says ‘chuck lied but he didn’t really lie because of the context’ i’m gonna pull what little peppered grey hair i have left on my Deciduously balding head.

    he, he

  269. gene

    … it starts with ‘repent and believe the Gospel’ but i’d rather hear your answer to alex’s question.

  270. The 10 commandments are the law, they are for the unbelievers (1 Timothy chapter 1 discusses this). The believers are to love the Lord our God with all the heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves. On this hang all the law (including the 10 commandments). Romans 13:10 discusses this point.

    To tell anyone to live under the 10 commandments, is to put them under the curse. To tell them to see the 10 commandments as a revealer of their sinfulness, is fine.

  271. yikes,

    i agree. ‘i was alive once without the law, until the law revived and i died’ or something like it in romans 7

    that’s why i believe rom 8 is the normal christian life, and rom 7 is the futility we come to ‘before’ we accept the gift of salvation in christ.

    i realise gene may disagree…. he ‘has to sin’ and ‘can’t not sin’ as a christian.

  272. I am not a Chuck defender – let me make that clear. I left that years ago. I don’t follow what my old Jews do or say, and I really don’t follow CC and CS other than what I read on the PP – which is usually an argument.

    The lies aside, because I don’t know the conversations (I only know what Alex says was said) I don’t know.

    I do know this, at one time CS was the main mover and shaker in CC – he probably is still if not by choice but by default – because there are still CC pewsters, who want to put him on a pedestal. Not just pewsters, but many CCSPs who do the same.

    If he lied, he lied – I have no defense for the man.

  273. “and rom 7 is the futility we come to ‘before’ we accept the gift of salvation in christ.”

    Except for the tiny detail that Paul uses the present tense in Romans 7.

  274. “i realise gene may disagree…. he ‘has to sin’ and ‘can’t not sin’ as a christian.”

    That’s right, my old sin nature is still at work. And the reason you sin? Just for fun?

  275. MLD, Why are you saying “IF” he lied like there is some kind of doubt in your mind. Spend 10-15 minutes and I am sure Alex can point you to exact audio and now written statements coming from pastor Chuck that completely contradict each other. Its there. Why is this put out there as some kind of speculation?

  276. Andrew, you miss the point. Why do I care to verify whether he lied or not. There are many liars in this world – I am one of them.

    Why do I need to listen to some select audios to know that people lie. Does Alex lie, or is he the one person on earth who does not lie? Andrew, do you lie?

    I am not a part of the CC conversation – my interventions are only in defense of those who Alex maligns because of their associations – that’s it.

  277. MLD – “I am not a part of the CC conversation – my interventions are only in defense of those who Alex maligns because of their associations – that’s it.”

    That’s pretty much what PP has become. It should just be a closed club, and that will avoid anyone coming and shaking up the norm.

  278. gene

    i sin when i fail, not because ‘i have to’
    infact, i don’t want to, i have been given the ability ‘not to’ yield to temptation
    and God has not left us powerless or unaided to reject and refute said sin.

    short answer: the christian is not set up to fail, he is set up In Christ to succeed in following Christ in obedience to the Father just as He was. the christian does not have to sin. he is able to not sin because of the atonement and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

  279. MLD, your logic is faulty. If you are caught in a lie, you need to confess and repent and ask for forgiveness. Chuck has been caught in a big lie but where is the confession and repentance. This topic is is very relevant to this blog. If we can not get a hold of the truth than things won’t change which is the point of Alex’s blog.

  280. gene

    “Why do I need to listen to some select audios to know that people lie….
    I am not a part of the CC conversation – my interventions are only in defense of those who Alex maligns because of their associations – that’s it.”

    how can alex be ‘maligning’ people if he’s telling the truth? only if you don’t care to know or findout.

    weak, real weak brother

  281. … and consider this, everytime you ‘intervene’ to ‘defend’ or castigate those who ‘are’ in the ‘CC coversation’, you are indeed inserting yourself into it.

    you can’t have it both ways

  282. MLD, listen to Chuck’s own words here:

    and here:

    Then, read Chuck’s email to the CCSP’s system-wide announcing the ‘changes he has made’ to the System he claims he has no responsibility of control over.

    He’s a liar.

  283. Way Too Close over at PhxP put it well here:

    “We all know the greatest crime is witnessing wrong, and doing nothing about it.”

    That’s it in a nutshell.

    While they wring their hands over there a CCPhxP about how to burn me at the stake, they let Chuck Smith off the hook (many of them) and CC off the hook (many of them) and don’t call for Chuck’s head as an unjust leader.

    Hypocrites. They only use strong words publicly against a peon like me b/c they are personally offended.

    They are not even men at this point.

  284. alex.,

    gene’s only interested in ‘defending’ those you ‘maligned’. doesn’t really care if you actually did malign them by telling falsehoods so he’s not concerned if you’re telling the truth. his loyalty runs deep for someone not involved in the CC conversation.

    must be nice to live in Never Never Land. (wonder if there are any of those unicorns living there)

  285. i read that by WTC also… stern words. i wonder how long he will last before they ban him too?

  286. Yikes said, “That’s pretty much what PP has become. It should just be a closed club, and that will avoid anyone coming and shaking up the norm.”

    I agree, that would solve a lot of their concerns…I suggested that to Michael but it was spun by my critics as “bullying” him, which is bogus.

    Steve Wright is such an idiot sometimes. He’s espousing it as some sort of actionable issue to discuss publicly made comments on a blog about a situation I’m directly involved in. They are doing the same thing when they discuss me over there.

    Steve, bring a lawsuit buddy. I dare you. I’ll hand your ass to you and sue you for attorney’s fees.

  287. Way To Close really “gets” it:

    “We all know the greatest crime is witnessing wrong, and doing nothing about it. The irony of this decision here is thus, an action is being taken (which the offender is wanting for their own issue and cause) to uphold what is just, true, and right.”

    That’s the point I’ve been making and exampling for a long time. Nice to see that some folks get it.

    The Steve Wright’s, Jeff Jone’s, Ron Arbaugh’s, Tom Stipe’s, Dave Rolph’s, John Shaffer’s of CC etc etc…are ready to string me up and hang me vendetta style for doing about .01% of what we’ve all been through with Bob Grenier, Chuck Smith and other abusive CCSP’s.

    Their answer to us when we want justice? “Well, I just can’t comment on that, I don’t know the whole story, forgive, don’t be bitter, move on, be warm and be filled, get over it” etc etc.

    Their answer when they want justice? “Ban him! Abuser! Trouble-maker!” quite publicly.


  288. If someone makes comments on a public blog, they’d better be ready to have those comments quoted. If it isn’t something they want to be known for, then they shouldn’t say it.

    Same goes for public speech. This is why those that present themselves as teachers, are under the greater condemnation (scrutiny). If a person presumes to tell others what is true, they’d better man up and be ready to be challenged. Because it’s going to happen sooner or later.

    But some aren’t going to man up about it. They will whine and complain and try to silence those who speak.

  289. Dave Rolph sat there in the “meeting” with Chuck Smith and watched Chuck lie to my face when he has the power to make changes in the Calvary Chapel System….and does.

    THAT IS OFFENSIVE and real abuse. Not a word from any about how that fact affects me and many.

  290. My conclusion based on this clear example of wrong and injustice and the response of the so-called “good guys” in CC and the response of Chuck Smith is that the “anointing” of God in Calvary Chapel is purely a man-made mythology supported by numbers and butts in seats, not a real deep set of convictions and doing the right thing when push comes to shove.

  291. gene got real quiet… maybe he went ‘home’. hope they left the doggie door opened for him. got some alpo out with his water, just in time for that ‘belly rub’ from the PP gang

  292. MiC,
    So sin is what you do? NOT who you are?

    I sin because I am a sinner. You on the other hand are only a sinner because you occasionally sin… do I have that right?

    You would think that since God has now made us not to sin, that we would see some people out there running around who do not sin… but we don’t.

    You need to rethink what Paul was saying in Romans 7

  293. Alex,

    MLD doesnt care if he is a liar. He said so. (see 276)
    How many others feel the same way?
    And MLD is deep into doctrine…which has been given to us by God for righteous living…

  294. I believe Romans 7 is a description of saved Paul fighting the sinful flesh in his own attempts. Sort of him experiencing the Galatian errors that he would write about in Galatians. Romans 8 is his deliverance to see that the Lord gives the Holy Spirit freely for us to walk in, and then the choice is up to us to walk in Him.

  295. I believe Romans ch 7 is a description of saved Paul fighting the sinful flesh in his own attempts. Sort of him experiencing the Galatian errors that he would write about in Galatians. Romans ch 8 is his deliverance to see that the Lord gives the Holy Spirit freely for us to walk in, and then the choice is up to us to walk in Him.

  296. gene

    nope. i was a sinner, bound by nature, inclination and behavior to sin and fail of God’s ‘mark’, but when i accepted Christ’s Gift of salvation, He gave me not only forgiveness, but also His continued presence and He calls me a saint, no loger a sinner without hope, but a saint with His indwelling presence to lead, guide and protect… as i cooperate, follow and submitt.. simply put, i exchanged Adams from the first described in genesis to the Last adam described in 1cor15.i have died and resurrected In Christ to be joined to Him in the New Birth.
    on occasion, i sin but not because i have to or because i cannot ‘not’ sin. but only when i fail to live out of the new nature Christ has given me. we are meant to ‘express’ that New Life that Jesus has ‘planted’ into us.
    i cannot and will not accept your premise that rom 7 is the normal, hopeless, failing, and powerless life of the believer in Christ. it’s not the Gospel of our salvation and it keeps people bound to sin that Jesus came to abolish.

    i could sing you a sunday school song “I’m a new creation, I’m a brand new man…” if that’s what it takes to explain the simplicity of what I believe the new testament teaches.

  297. The Truth is that Chuck Smith is untouchable and the so-called “good guys” won’t call a spade a spade, which is part of the Problem.

    Oh, they’ll call a spade a spade with regards to a peon like me…but not Papa Chuck who lied to me and treated me and many others very unjustly.

    It’s wrong. The “good” CC guys won’t ever criticize Chuck Smith publicly and give all manner of justification and defense as to why, etc. but have no problem calling me an “abuser” publicly and criticizing my tactics.

  298. Hannah,
    Speaking of lies, you just told one; “MLD doesnt care if he is a liar. He said so. (see 276)”

    Where did I say I didn’t care if Chuck lied? I asked why I have to verify lies from people who lie? As we all do and you just did.

    I apologize if this hurts your feelings – I usually do not engage the ladies in such conversations.

  299. gene
    then try this. i’m not a lady.
    direct answer: do you care if he lied? does it matter in the ‘CC Conversation’?

  300. MiC,
    ” i sin but not because i have to or because i cannot ‘not’ sin. but only when i fail to live out of the new nature Christ has given me. we are meant to ‘express’ that New Life that Jesus has ‘planted’ into us.”

    It sounds like your new nature is not much different from your old nature if you cannot control yourself. As a Lutheran I recognize that I have both my old man and my new man present in me (I know this is all foreign to evangelicals.) We are both 100% sinner and 100% saint. We fight the flesh here on earth at the same time says that we presently sit in the heavenlies.
    But we don’t get better like today you are 50% sinner and 50% saint – but tomorrow you will be only a 40% sinner and a 60% saint. It is all who we are (sinner) and how Jesus sees us (saint)

    But, based on what you have told me, the only advise I can give you is “stop sinning!!!”

  301. they fought back at WTC on PP and it seems his remarks have ‘returned to the fold’ of marking alex as the abuser who needs to be dealt with rather than those who refuse to see and deal with the corruption in the CC system. wow, just wow.

  302. MLD I sin because I choose to sin and the same goes for you as well as Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith choose to sin by lying to all of us. The difference appears to be that Chuck Smith has not confessed or repented and for all intents and purposes does not appear to have an attitude that he regrets anything.

  303. MLD – “As a Lutheran I recognize that I have both my old man and my new man present in me (I know this is all foreign to evangelicals.)”

    I am not part of CC, but CC does fall into the category of evangelicals, does it not? Chuck Smith teaches the two natures both currently present at the same time, and has for 50 years that I know of.

    I am an evangelical, and I believe in the two natures currently present, and always have.

    I know you not at all. We’ve never met. Yet just today alone, what I’ve seen of your comments, the level of straw men, wrong characterizations of people’s beliefs, and hypocricy….. wow.

  304. so, gene. back to the question… do you care if CS lied? does it matter to the CC conversation if he did?

    my theology of sin and new nature/sin nature can be discussed on another thread (perhaps Open Blogging if alex opens that again)

    all that is to avoid the answer to the question of integrity of the people and system you have inserted yourself here to defend from ‘malignment’ by alex.

  305. MLD Andrew, you miss the point. Why do I care to verify whether he lied or not. There are many liars in this world – I am one of them.

    MLD, I missed the ” to verify”. So as my son says “my bad”
    I can understand why, on quick reading I came to that conclusion. The second sentence confirms my understanding that if you did think he lied, you can excuse it anyway.

  306. Well, if evangelicals do believe that the old man is just as active today in us as he was before, your responses (the plural you) do not indicate such an acknowledgement.

    And that is why Paul spoke in the present tense in Rom 7, as that was his actual state and Romans 8 is our position in Christ… warts and all.

    We are sinners and we do sin because we cannot do otherwise. Look, I am sure that I sin probably 300 times a day in thought word and deed (and I am probably lying and keeping the number too low). Probably 2/3rds of my sins I am unaware of – sins of ommission – sins where God wants me to say something to someone, but I am too wrapped up in my own thoughts I don’t even know he wanted that.

    For some here to say “I only sin when I fail” like ooops! I failed once today is ridiculous.

    Look, we sin even when we do good works, if our motives are wrong?

    Do you realize that it is a sin to do good works because you want to please God??

  307. MLD ”

    MLD”I apologize if this hurts your feelings – I usually do not engage the ladies in such conversations.”

    It takes a lot more than this to hurt my feelings.
    Remember, I am a survivor! 😉

  308. hannah
    “The second sentence confirms my understanding that if you did think he lied, you can excuse it anyway.”

    wow, insightful… from a lady even (wink)

    but he hasn’t answered yet

  309. Hmm, my #307 is in moderation

  310. MLD – “As a Lutheran I recognize that I have both my old man and my new man present in me (I know this is all foreign to evangelicals.)”

    What a statement!! I don’t like labels but if I were to give myself one it would probably something like an evangelical confessional Lutheran with a strong flavor of Calvinism mixed in.

    But what you and I differ on seems to be more about whether the leader of the 4th largest protestant non-denomination denomination can even tell the truth.

  311. I am reposting my #307 – perhaps the bible links blocked me.

    Well, if evangelicals do believe that the old man is just as active today in us as he was before, your responses (the plural you) do not indicate such an acknowledgement.

    And that is why Paul spoke in the present tense in R.7, as that was his actual state and R. 8 is our position in Christ… warts and all.

    We are sinners and we do sin because we cannot do otherwise. Look, I am sure that I sin probably 300 times a day in thought word and deed (and I am probably lying and keeping the number too low). Probably 2/3rds of my sins I am unaware of – sins of omission – sins where God wants me to say something to someone, but I am too wrapped up in my own thoughts I don’t even know he wanted that.

    For some here to say “I only sin when I fail” like ooops! I failed once today is ridiculous.

    Look, we sin even when we do good works, if our motives are wrong?

    Do you realize that it is a sin to do good works because you want to please God??

  312. MLD, once again, Chuck Smith alone has taught the two natures for 50 years. All his followers teach the same.

    I am not in CC, but I believe the two natures. Most generic Baptist churches teach two natures, most non-denom Bible churches teach the two natures.

    There are some that teach only one new nature, and that would be guys like John MacArthur. But they are in the minority when it comes to evangelicals regarding this issue. Most evangelicals teach two natures.

  313. Spam filter got you MLD.

    You can thank God there isn’t a “wrong” filter…or none of your posts would go through 😆

  314. Andrew,
    Let me see if I can state this a little more clear. Yes it matter if CS lied. How much I don’t know. I doubt that the who CC system stands or falls if Chuck Smith lies.

    I know this is a holy group, but is there anyone here who has not lied and has not gone back to that person to make it right? Anyone here who has not let pride stand in their way?

    If any of you answer in the affirmative, why should I listen to anything you say here?

  315. Yikes, I think John MacArthur would also teach the two natures but haven’t listened enough to know for sure.

  316. Hannah,
    No harm, no foul 🙂

  317. Gene

    “Do you realize that it is a sin to do good works because you want to please God??”

    wow, sin to want to please God by your life and behavior even after recieving Christ?

  318. Andrew, my understanding is that John MacArthur does teach one new nature, but I could be wrong about him, perhaps he changed his position. I stopped listening to him long ago when he made salvation sound like the impossible dream.

    If he did teach two natures, that would only solidify my point that MLD has no idea what everyone believes, but he presumes to speak on behalf of the world and criticize them for what they don’t even believe.

  319. John MacArthur teaches that the believer has one nature, not two:

  320. MLD asked, “I know this is a holy group, but is there anyone here who has not lied and has not gone back to that person to make it right? Anyone here who has not let pride stand in their way?”

    Anyone here a Pastor and self-professed “Anointed” Leader held to a higher standard per Scripture of an entire Denomination/Movement?


  321. Nevertheless, most evangelicals believe that the believer has two natures, the old man, and the new man.

  322. MLD, I doubt that the who CC system stands or falls if Chuck Smith lies.

    As a matter of fact the enitre CC system as once understood no longer exists. Why? It is really a matter of time to see what this monster morphs into. I am glad you admit that it is important that Chuck Smith lied. Is it worse than any lie I have made? probably not. Again the difference however is that Chuck Smith has not confessed or repented and has no regrets.

  323. gene, gene, gene,

    ‘so, lies, abuse and sin’ don’t matter with CS or the CC system of ‘moses model’ pastors because everyone does it (you assert and assume of us), but you follow alex over here to harrass and punish him for percieved ‘lies, abuse, and sins’ against the PP community and the ‘good guy’ CC pastors who won’t even use their real names for fear of reprisals….

    to borrow a word from Packer “Antinomy!!” it’s a mystery to me how you can honestly say and stand for both with integrity. i struggle with the words to describe …. by grace, i will refrain

  324. gene

    ” I doubt that the who CC system stands or falls if Chuck Smith lies.”

    it means enough to you and your friends that you won’t even say whether you believe he lied… or find out yourself by listening to the audios alex has linked to. hows that to show the importance of CS lying?

    come on, stop spinning and twisting and just answer the question alex was asking.

  325. gene
    if you are so detatched and separate from the cc conversation, you should have no problem telling alex if you believe that chuck lied… which ever it is, be honest and just own it.

  326. MiC,
    “wow, sin to want to please God by your life and behavior even after recieving Christ?”

    that’s right, God does not need or want our good works… he has commanded us to do our good works for our neighbor, who needs them.

    So, the next time you give a homeless guy 10 bucks for any other reason than he is your neighbor and needs your good works, it’s sin. If you give it to him so that God will be pleased with you… buzzz! sin.

  327. gene,
    still arguing with me about ‘good works’ (not the topic of the article thread) and avoiding answering the question (which is)? Coward. afraid your buddies are watching in from PP?

  328. MLD – “If you give it to him so that God will be pleased with you… buzzz! sin.”

    If you love Me, keep My commandments (John chapter 14 verse 15)

    Undoubtedly, His commandments include loving others, which can take the form of giving a homeless man $10.

    That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God (Colossians chapter 1 verse 10)

    Clearly, doing works to please the Lord, is good.

    Doing good works for rewards in heaven, is also a good motivation (this is clear from Mark chapter 9 verse 41).

    Doing good works to try and “help” be saved, is always sin (this is clear from Romans chapter 4 verse 5)

  329. I believe 100% that Alex thinks Chuck Smith lied to him. I know no more than that. Were you in the room with Alex and Chuck to know what was said?

  330. Yikes.
    I know many like you who do their good works to please God, and they are not doing it to help their neighbor. It’s still sin

    The good works are pleasing to God, but not to be the motivation to do the good works. Sorry, but we disagree.

  331. MLD, when I see the Scripture that says that the good works are in contradiction to the motivation of the good works, I will agree with you. But show me the Scripture. If I’m wrong, I’ll accept the correction.

    But as it stands, until I see the Scripture, Colossians chapter 1 verse 10 alone proves you wrong.

  332. MLD, listen to Chuck’s own words I linked.

    Read Chucks’ direct instructions “changing” the Calvary Chapel System.

    Chuck is the dude in charge, everyone knows it, long history of it. If he wants it to happen it happens.

    Are you calling Michael a liar when Michael reports that Chuck “stopped” Bob Grenier from being defrocked from Calvary Chapel?

    …that’s “Control and Responsibility”…and Chuck is a liar. Chuck demonstrated the “control and responsibility” to stop Bob Grenier from being defrocked…he has the control to defrock him.

    The reason Chuck Smith didn’t follow through, is b/c it got personal and he’s a man of low character and not “anointed” in any way shape or form.

  333. Yikes,
    Your colossians passage – I said that the good works are pleasing to God. I said his pleasure should not be the motivation.

    So, when I give the 10 bucks to the homeless guy I should tell him, “look, I am doing this to please God.”

  334. Yikes,
    That’s probably why I sin more than you guys – I don’t use the abridged sin list. 😉

  335. MLD, well my “sin list” comes from the Bible. And the Bible doesn’t say that it’s a sin to be motivated to the good works to please God.

    If the Bible doesn’t say it, then it isn’t so.

    What verse in the Bible are you using to make this doctrine? You still didn’t answer this question. I don’t want what luther said. Show me the verse in the Bible that says it.

  336. “I believe 100% that Alex thinks Chuck Smith lied to him”

    listen to the audio recordings… then answer the ‘real’ question, not what believe alex thinks…

    dude, you are smart enough to know what he was asking. you twisted it to the question you wanted to answer.

    “I know no more than that. Were you in the room with Alex and Chuck to know what was said?”
    listen to the audio recordings of the meeting… the only possible reason you ‘don’t know’ is that you don’t ‘want’ to know. again, be honest, listen and answer the question he asked, not the one that you want to answer. i’m not stupid enough not to know the difference.


  337. Alex,
    Romney says that Harry Reid lied about Romney paying taxes – do I have to read all the evidence to make a decision? Do I need to care if Romney’s claim is valid? Why do I need to be put in a position of doing more for Chuck Smith.

    This has nothing to do with my beef with you – so if Romney now uses the Alex tactics and goes out to destroy Harry Reid professionally, and to take down his family and and cast doubt on every person who has ever had a good word to say about Harry Reid, I need to support Romney’s actions because Harry Reid lied?

    Silly! You are silly.

  338. MLD @ 59

    You know, the Palestinians have been terribly abused by the Israelis for 60 yrs – terrible abuse, that i think needs to be addressed and the Israeli government held accountable.

    gene, only a self hating jew would make such a comment: perhaps your brit milah went wrong and the mohel missed the target???

    i would ban you for racism if i were the moderator…

  339. once a cc guru, I missed that comment from MLD at 59, so thank you for bringing it up.

    The discussion earlier was MLD’s hatred of Biblical eschatology, and blaming the friends of Israel for what the antichrist will do. In reality, MLD and his doctrine already hate Israel, the Jewish people, and do daily damage to them.

    The depth of the false doctrines he holds, is just sad.

  340. i am with ya yikes… replacement theology = nazism in my book…

  341. MLD/Gene, again you are mixing apples with oranges.

    My beef is with the ‘good guys’ who interact on behalf of CC and try to claim they are there to help those hurt by CC.

    I don’t see it as a help when they deny the facts about Chuck Smith lying on a major issue and acting unjustly.

    My beef is not with you…until you obfuscate the main issues.

    Right now the CC guys on PhxP are publicly calling for my head…something I’ve lobbied them to do with regards to Bob Grenier and that injustice.

    They come up with all sorts of excuses to not do the one…while actively and emphatically doing the other.

  342. From Yikes link

    “I know of a pastor who counsels premarital couples to take a shower together. He tells them not to worry about sin, saying that when we sin, it is simply a manifestation of our old nature. He believes the old nature is going to sin anyway, so there’s nothing believers can do about it. But according to the Apostle Paul, the believer’s old nature is dead and buried. With that in mind, how can we possibly serve sin? Those who hold the view that sees a dual nature in the believer could easily attempt to excuse all kinds of sins by blaming them on the old nature” (Freedom From Sin, p. 31;

  343. If the so-called “good” CC Pastors want to REALLY help hurt folks like me and many others….they need to start by acknoweldging what is True:

    1. Chuck Smith is lying about not having control or responsibility.
    2. There is plenty of testimony to support that there are “some” bad guys in their Association/Movement who need church discipline and their Doves yanked for being “abusive”
    3. They need to name names and publicly call for action and keep the pressure on into the “abuser” is BANNED from their blog….I mean Association/Movement.

  344. so now that you have been banned alex i guess your stuck with us…

  345. Gene,

    you know this has nothing to do with Romney, or the Palistinians… you just don’t want to answer the question. stop squirming and just to the intellectually honest thing….

    listen to the audio recordings
    and answer the question….

  346. MiC,
    I have answered the question – a couple of times. Just because you don’t like my answer will not make me bend to your pressure – I am not a goose stepping Alex follower like the rest.

  347. guru,
    A comment like you made above can only come out of the mouth of a Misslerite – where Israel can do no wrong – and if they do we will just say it is God’s will.

    You people who replace Jesus with Israel, end up by worshiping Israel.

    Read any pre mil dispey end times book and you will see Israel mentioned at least 100 times to any mention of Jesus.

  348. “I am not a goose stepping Alex follower like the rest.

    Wow! At least we goose have listened to the recordings…quack quack….remember, if it walks like a duck/goose….

  349. MLD – “Read any pre mil dispey end times book and you will see Israel mentioned at least 100 times to any mention of Jesus.”

    You must be reading all the books. I haven’t read any of them.

    The Bible has Jesus mentioned (as Jesus, God, Lord, I AM, and so on), thousands of times. Israel is also mentioned so very many times, but not as many as the Lord of course.

    I don’t know anyone who worships Israel. That’s another false straw man built by you to blow over. But it isn’t so. What it is, is supporting Israel. Unless you define support as worship. I don’t.

    And of course, as covered earlier, nobody is “The Land of Israel’s Disciple”.

    But someone that goes by the name….. well….. you know.

  350. Correction…goose steppers, not goose

  351. gene
    but it has been demonstarted you didn’t answer the question… you said you didn’t know, or believed 100% that alex thinks chuck lied… neither is an honest answer to if you believe chuck lied… what’s more you don’t want to know so you don’t have to ‘knowingly’ answer.

    you won’t listen to the recordings to ‘hear’ what chuck actually said in the room although alex was there (your backhanded slap at alex calling him the liar by inferrence).
    and you are afraid to answer the question because your PP buddies that you came here to defend from ‘malignment’ from alex wouldn’t like it if you admitted you believed chuck was lying after examining the evidence. listen to the recordings, answer the question or simplt admit you aren’t willing to… just don’t be a (expletive self monitored) and tell me you already have when we all know you haven’t.

  352. You are absolutely right MIC.
    If he listens to it, he is then accountable to it.
    All this theological debate (that never gets anywhere) is just a way of avoidance of the real issue.

  353. MiC,
    Sorry if I missed it but I did not see any link to the audio recording of the meeting Alex had with Chuck and the Lawyers, his brother and Dave Rolf.

    Link it here and I will listen

  354. alex linked it up above.. and you can find it on remnantradio dot com
    shouldn’t be so hard to find if you’re looking for it…

  355. MIC

    Didn’t you notice MLD asked for a recording of Alex’s meeting with CS?

  356. hannah
    nope didn’t catch the nuance. is he still slithering around the question like the Old Snake he says he can’t stop serving? what’s the diff?

  357. ah, i see… are you thinking remnant radio with chuck actually on the air, and alex able to confront him isn’t going to be good enough for gene? sneaky… not honestly answering the question though.
    he’d make a great presidential press secretary…

  358. long and short,
    although gene doesnt have a part in the ‘CC conversation’ as he says, and he doesn’t care what CS said or didn’t say, whether he lied to alex or not, and without any personal gain that he cares to admit to other than defending his ‘good guy’ CC pastors on PP who can’t seem to be honest enough to use their own names (for fear of reprisals from the Beast), he’s the one who ‘goose steps’ to the CC reichstag and attacks the guy with the experience and evidence that something is really fishy in fishtown.
    nothing to gain(?), doesnt care if it’s true, lines up to bash alex anyways…. wow!

  359. Hannah & MiC,

    You guys are not very observant – MiC said the recording was “you won’t listen to the recordings to ‘hear’ what chuck actually said in the room although alex was there.”

    The only conversation I know of where Chuck and Alex were in the same room, was the meeting at CCCM.

    So where is that recording you want me to listen to? This is one of those put up or shut up moments.

  360. MLD,

    I knew exactly what you were up to. I just wanted to let MIC in on it.

  361. …and you knew there was no recording then.
    So it was a trap. Admit it.

  362. gene you are so full of it… you know what alex is asking… don’t be a (expletive self moderated) i hope you get saved someday. but i’ve gotta go for now

  363. MiC,
    I always quote your own words. Give me the recording as you said with Alex in the room. Now! or go to bed.

  364. MiC,
    I am not looking for what Alex asked for, I am looking for what you offered. Where is it.

    Come on, your words must not mean anything.

  365. gene
    you are pathological, not the sign of a born again christian at all. you have the makings of a great CCSP. maybe BG needs another right hand man.

  366. Hannah,
    “…and you knew there was no recording then.
    So it was a trap. Admit it.”

    MiC said there was. “with Alex in the room.”

    Look, if MiC wants to say he misspoke, I will accept his apology – it’s the least I can do for a fallen brother.

  367. gene
    you are pathological, not the sign of a born again christian at all. you have the makings of a great CCSP. maybe BG needs another right hand man.

    WOW, great name calling – like a 3rd grader…

  368. He’s talking to you in the only way you’ll understand.

    He’s being kind!

    You should be thanking him, really, but we all know you lack anything approaching manners.

  369. MLD/Gene’s just trying to make a point…but it’s lost on the fact it’s not nearly analogous and quite a stretch. What he is doing is illustrating how many abusive CCSP’s act and get away with it in the CC System.

    If he were a CCSP, you could file a complaint with CCOF and get Stone Walled.

    I kind of like the old guy, but if you folks get too sick of him, I’m open to banning him again 🙂

  370. MLD wrote “Doug, You are an hostorical weakling. ”

    Not sure what you are trying to say but you can pedal your Lutheran anti-semitism defenses elsewhere. There is no defense of Luther’s anti-semitism other than to say it was wrong. Sad to see you defending it..

    Here’s but one example of your chosen namesake’s words” “Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch­thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.”

    Where is your defense against his words? Luther makes Gibson look lightweight. Indefensible, Gene.

  371. MLD wrote “People try to make Luther’s writings out as anti semitic – but no one to date has shown in anything written in the next 400 yrs that accused Luther of being such – not one such writing, because everyone understood Luther in his context.”

    Particularly the National Socialists who loved Luther’s words and quoted him in their defense of the holocaust…

    Shame, Gene, shame.

  372. MLD wrote “Doug, You are correct about my presence here. I am going to show people here what Alex does on the PP – he dominates the board making 10 non sensical comments to every one comment made by others. ”

    So I guess it would be foolish for us to respond to your folly???

  373. Yeah. And Gene never answered my question as to his preference on pepper beef or corned beef sandwiches. The hazer. I don’t know about you, but told me all I needed to know about Gino’s motives. Bet he likes grey poupon also.

    Alex: what’s your preference?

  374. “I kind of like the old guy, but if you folks get too sick of him, I’m open to banning him again ”

    Only 2 requests. No Baptism or Communion discussion 😉

    MLD-What about “The Jews and their Lies”?

  375. LVD

    The discussion ought to be rye or pumpernickle 😉

  376. Ah Hannah. Bet you know who I am. Yer no shiksa.

  377. and yer Meshugeh!

  378. Sorry- I believe Meshugener is the male form!

  379. MLD opined “A comment like you made above can only come out of the mouth of a Misslerite – where Israel can do no wrong – and if they do we will just say it is God’s will.”

    What do you have against Missler? Smith put him in the pulpit for many years at CCCM where he got to pronounce his crazy ideas. Such as the Nephalim/Alien stuff…

    A word against Missler is a tome against Smith.

  380. This fellow explains a lot about why things in celebrity, “anointed one” driven or “our truth is the real truth” churches don’t change. The meat of the article follows a lot of links that are good for background.

    The line “I’m not that kind of …..” church will resonate with some of you I dare say.

  381. Grieved-

    I read the whole article.
    How can he say he was “saved and baptized” at a IFB church and now say he is an athiest?

  382. MLD wrote “God does not need or want our good works…”

    That’s good Lutheran, but poor Biblical, theology…

    Matt 5:18 says something totally different than MLD:

    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Eph 2:10 says

    “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. ”

    These things are ordained by God yet MLD says God does not want us to do good works.

    Sorry, Gene, but you are bringing a different gospel, which is no gospel at all.

  383. Hannah –
    He was also a pastor for many decades. He tells his story throughout his blog. Earlier entries might tell you how he says it happened. Of course the one saved always saved crowd won’t accept his explanations.

  384. Thank you for the mention. To answer Hannah’s, how can he…

    Simple. Because that is what happened. People may have a hard time straining my story through their peculiar theological grid but, it is my story and I am sticking to it. 🙂

  385. “Simple. Because that is what happened.”

    BTW, welcome to the Refuse Collectors! (inside joke)

  386. Doug,
    You did not read my whole comment about Luther and the Jews. At the time of the writing, everyone knew that the article was just another of Luther’s strong polemic writings. Luther said nothing about the Jews that he was not already saying about the turks and the Papists.

    Noone for 400 years ever called Luther’s writings anti semitic until Hitler used them. No one at the time tried to implement Luthers stuff, no action was taken – because it was not meant for that.

    But I can see you have not read the article and have just read little wikis on the internet. What were the lies of the Jews – do you know? Are they any different than the lies of the Jews today?

  387. Doug,
    “A word against Missler is a tome against Smith.”

    I have no problem with that at all. I am not a Chuck defender and I left CC over theology – Both Chuck’s are wronng.
    They are wrong on the effectivness of infant baptism, they are wrong on the real presence of Jesus in the bread and wine, they are wrong about last days events.They are wrong by not knowing how to properly divide law and gospel, they are wrong about the two kingdoms of God, they are wrong on the role of the pastor. How many other things can I list that the Chuck’s are wrong about. Like in the case of most evangelical teaching, I don’t have time for wrong theology.

  388. Bruce Gerencser,
    Hi Bruce, you must love punishment and pain… a Bengals fan?? LOL

  389. @ 385

    Hi Bruce,

    You don’t know me but we’ve been in the same room a few times. (SoL Conferences)
    I read through a few of your posts and concur with your take on IFB’s, having been one myself. I’m embarrassed to say that after a 5 year break, attending healthier churches, I ended up in the CC movement spanning quite a few years. It took me awhile to recognize that I was in another group designed basically the same as IFB’s, only cooler with more money and verse by verse teaching. I finally woke up and recognized the damage had the same smell, and the churches had the same governing structure.

    My conclusion is different than the path you’ve chosen, as I cannot deny Jesus Christ as my Savior; which may be as a result of my intense salvation change from the inside out, as opposed to someone -like you, maybe- who had grown up within the ranks where it’s more difficult to separate the culture from Jesus.

    I could use your writing as reference material since you spelled it out so well. I even found this gem under your post about Jack Hyle’s legacy: (My additions are noted by parenthesis.)

    Found here:

    “Is it any wonder IFB (& CC) pastors and churches have the scandals they do? Members are taught to obey their pastor without question. He is the man of God. If he is doing something wrong God will chastise him.”

    “This kind of thinking allows IFB (& CC) pastors to commit adultery, molest children, and steal from the church without anyone ever knowing about it. I could spend the next two days writing about IFB pastors who have abused their place of authority and committed heinous acts against the people they pastored.”

    So true, Bruce. I keep watching history repeat itself.

  390. Re: Hannah @ 383

    For Bruce to have been that steeped in IFB’s can only mean it must have been very painful for him. When I broke free I was told, “You will never be used of God again.” And I wasn’t giving up Jesus, I was just leaving their school. The condemnation and pressures were intense.

    You know how devastating it can be if one breaks free from a CC. You can lose your friends, your church, your reputation, and for some their family members, their livelihood, and their future employment. One steeped in CC culture could easily (and we’ve heard from a few on here) give up their faith in their shedding of that culture. Sometimes it’s just too intertwined, making it very difficult to separate.

    I was fortunate that God had radically changed me before I became an IFB, so I was able to eventually separate the culture from Jesus. I also was given a gift of a few years in a great place to work out my theological issues immediately after I left, carefully separating out the poor applications of Scripture with decent hermeneutics. It was intense work, but as a result, I healed up much faster than my other IFB friends who are still struggling with it all some 30 years later. Most are very angry at how they’d been controlled and manipulated.

    What Bruce has been through is much more difficult than I can even imagine. If I were him, I most likely would have given up my faith … he was thick in that soup.

  391. Grateful,

    I attended an IFB church shortly after leaving my CC.
    I had known by research that they were KJV only, but visited anyway (had quite and education visiting all kinds of churches at that time). I spoke to an elder before service having used NKJV at CC, and asked if I could use that Bible there, and he said “Well, people here use other Bibles too”. I think they just didnt want to turn anyone away. I sat next to a woman my age, and had a little time before service to speak with her.. she told me about a mid-week Bible study they were giving on tithing. She had some notes with her. I looked up some of the scriptures and they were using verses out of context to condemn and curse those who didn’t tithe. I was so bold and fearless in those days that I went up to the Pastor after service and challenged him on the verses used, showing him the womans papers. He acted as if he did not know about the study, and it seemed he agreed and said he was going to speak with the person. I thinkt he woman felt good, because the study bothered her.
    Well, I never went back. The next week we get an unannounced visit from elders from the church . I had filled out a new visitor card when I got there. It was during dinner time. I did not let them in stating that it was dinner time and they ought to have called beforehand. My husband was prettty angry. I understand they do that kind of thing.
    Anyway, so that was my brief experience.
    I apologize if I came offf insensitive to the content of the post.
    I was more curious about the salvation issues.
    My prayer is that Bruce does not give up on Jesus because of his negatve experiences with “church”
    It can happen, as I was in a dry place for a long time myself after leaving CC.
    Jesus is not found in a building or church.
    He is in the very fibers of our heart as He planted Himself there at salvation, as I am sure Grateful, you can attest to.

    Yesterday I had a divine appointment with a woman (who almost died twice form a heart infection that destroyed her valves) and her daughter and shared the gospel. God is in control of all things. He plants us in the places He needs us. He does not let go of us.

  392. From Charles Spurgeon “Morning by Morning ” devotions:

    The Upright Love Thee -Song of Songs 1:4 KJV
    August 7

    Believers love Jesus with a deeper affection than they would dare to give to any other being. All their earthly possessions they hold loosely, but they carry Christ close to their hearts. They will gladly deny themselves for His sake, but you can’t get them to deny Him. People have tried to seperate the faithful from their Master, but in every age these attempts have been fruitless.
    This is no everday attachment that the world’s power will eventually dissolve. Yet we constantly lament the fact that we cannot love more. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could put together all our love, from all believers, in one great collection, and offer it to our great Lord, who is “altogether lovely”?

  393. From Charles Spurgeon “Morning by Morning ” devotions:

    The Upright Love Thee -Song of Songs 1:4 KJV
    August 7

    Believers love Jesus with a deeper affection than they would dare to give to any other being. All their earthly possessions they hold loosely, but they carry Christ close to their hearts. They will gladly deny themselves for His sake, but you can’t get them to deny Him. People have tried to seperate the faithful from their Master, but in every age these attempts have been fruitless.
    This is no everday attachment that the world’s power will eventually dissolve. Yet we constantly lament the fact that we cannot love more. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could put together all our love, from all believers, in one great collection, and offer it to our great Lord, who is “altogether lovely”?

  394. Hmmm, as I was reviewing the comments, I thought more and more about what Martin Luther was sharing about if we do good works in order to please God.

    In part I have to agree with him. that is there is a scripture that talks about how people expect to be praise by the Lord because they did this or that, yet Jesus admonishes them and takes to task on this. If I remember correctly, Jesus tells them that for those things that are done with a wrong motive we are not to expect

    Col. 1:10
    That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


    Donald Fehlauer posted on October 06, 2005 00:00

    This is a Lutheran website. I’m still looking for the scripture when I believe it was Jesus speaking about expecting a pat on the back, when we are only doing what we are supposed to be doing anyway.

    Moving along, as Mr. Fehlauer brought to mind:

    We are made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ and not by any works that we do (Ephesians 2:8-9), but God has commanded that we do good works as fruits of our faith. We do them out of love for God, not to earn a reward from God (Ephesians 2:10).

    Conclusion (mine):

    Otherwise, because the Holy Spirit resides within us we are compelled to love others for do we not possess the love of Christ within us. And if His love reigns in us, the what would be the fruit of that Love—-good fruits or rather, works.

    Mr. Fehlauer:

    Good works are all our thoughts, words, and actions done out of thankfulness to God, obedience to His commandments, and faith in His forgiveness for Christ’s sake (Psalm 19:13-14).

    Scripture teaches that only people with saving faith in Jesus do works that are good in God’s sight (Hebrews 11:6; John 15:1-17).


    So in all actuality the only thing that we can give is our love and our obedience out of a thankful heart. From that He enable us to do His will and the task set before us. As we abide in Him, He abides in us – thus His work is done.

    Although God is pleased with us as we go forth in these things, we are not to do them to please him, although he is please but not because we did it to please him, but hopefully out of a willing heart ready to love and to obey.

    Interesting—-still looking for the scripture reference 🙂 Godly Love is awesome.

    A very interesting interesting philosophical or theological topic to explore. Thanks Martin.

  395. Hmmm, did some more studying in God’s Word about do works to please God. I found out there is a big difference between doing works to please him and dong works that God is pleased by or take pleasure in.

    Its like Cain vs. Abel. Remember God was pleased with the sacrifices of Able, but not so with Cain. Bottom line: Abel’s heart was right and Cain. Why? Really important question!!

    Cain was trying to earn his way, whereas, Abel was doing these thing because he loved God, because wanted to be obedient to God, and because he was so very thankful for what God had done for him.

    Makes a huge differences between works of the flesh and work in and by the Holy Spirit, don’t you think.

    For there is nothing I can do without Christ who lives within me.
    Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit saith the Lord
    More than sacrifice, more than praise, bring a willing heart ready to obey. Hmmmm.

  396. Linda,

    Also God requires a blood sacrifice for sin. In the Levitical system blood was the required sacrifice first in order to enter God’s presence before the fruit/grain sacrifice. Cain and Abel knew this and Cain decided to not acknowledge his sin and disobey God.
    Cain represents those who are trying to come to God in any way but His way.

    I heard this once and memorized it. Good when trying to share the gospel of salvation by Christ alone vs attempted salvation by works.

    Faith secures for men the approval of God, and the only people who will ever enter into God’s presence are those whom He approves of and the only way to get his approval is by faith.

  397. The biggest problem is lack of accountability among leadership. That can only be adequately addressed by adopting a model involving a plurality of elders. But then one has to wonder what might distinguish them from any other Christian movement or denomination.

  398. “The only way to get God’s approval is by faith.”

    Sadly, Hannah must really believe this to be true.

    God loves everyone. Faith has nothing to do with having and receiving God’s love. This is like the little child who thinks that she/he has “to be good” in order for God to love them. In my first assignment as a minister I heard a teacher say to children: “Be God or God will not love you”. In my more mature years, I would have either fired her or trained her. All I did then was slip away and beat my head against a door frame.

    My name is John Shaffer, but I am not the John Shaffer that inspired this very, very long string of messages. I teach people that sometimes “the Bible is wrong” and certainly sometimes “preachers are wrong”. Lots of that going on here.

    I love Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins”. But then I am a Christian universalist at heart, just like William Barclay. My current favorite author is the late Marcus Borg.

  399. So many typos. Sorry: “Be Good or God will not love you” is a form of heresy, meaning false teaching.

    Another favorite book is “If Grace Is True” by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. For awhile I thought I would write a book about my belief system, but Gulley and Mulholland have done it for me. Summary: “I believe God will save every person”, including those who are teaching some awful stuff on-line and otherwise.

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